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Post by: Dashyl
Hey guys, I was just wondering what everyone thinks of Mephiston Lord of Death (Lord of Cheese). I recently started playing blood angels and i was just wondering if hes as good as everyone says he is.
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Post by: AbaddonFidelis
Dashyl
Mephiston has an amazingly good stat line but has 3 serious drawbacks.
1. he's extremely expensive
2. he has no invulnerable save
3. he cannot join units.
If your opponent doesn't know how to handle him Mephiston can go through his entire army. In the long run though all you'll be doing is teaching your opponent better play skills. After that Mephiston will no longer be a threat.... his weaknesses are so glaring that it's just a matter of time before your opponent will be able to exploit them, hurting you tremendously when he dies.
My advice to you would be to leave this guy at home. Your average Joe Blood Angel marine is very strong in close combat when backed up by a sanguinary priest. You don't need to run the kind of risks Mephiston represents in order to completely smash your opponent in close combat.
AF
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Post by: Guitardian
Yes he hits ridiculously hard. Yes costs a ton. And he goes down very easy. I think he would be a waste of points with a big target painted on his armor.
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Post by: zeekill
Most people are too stupid to use him correctly and I dont understand why. You put him in a rhino, go 18" first turn into terrain and pop smoke launchers.
If he shoots at the rhino and doesnt blow it up, you are fine, and he ignored the rest of your army. If he shoots at it and does blow it up, he then sees Mepheston jump out and shoots at him with everything remaining. But you have a cover save.
Then only target squads that are about 1-2 inches away from cover or in cover. Wipe the squad and massacre into cover again, or stay locked in combat and he still cant shoot at you.
Just watch out for lashwhips.
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Post by: AbaddonFidelis
If you move the rhino 18" and he kills it mephiston dies. fast vehicle rules.
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Post by: Dashyl
The only plus side i see are his stats... which are really good, but he costs as much as logan grimnar but i dont feel he hits has hard as logan though
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Post by: zeekill
Most people are too stupid to use him correctly and I dont understand why. You put him in a rhino, go 18" first turn into terrain and pop smoke launchers.
If he shoots at the rhino and doesnt blow it up, you are fine, and he ignored the rest of your army. If he shoots at it and does blow it up, he then sees Mepheston jump out and shoots at him with everything remaining. But you have a cover save.
Then only target squads that are about 1-2 inches away from cover or in cover. Wipe the squad and massacre into cover again, or stay locked in combat and he still cant shoot at you.
Just watch out for lashwhips.
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Post by: Ragnar Blackmane
Or just pack him into the middle of 10 FnP Ass-Marines with Priest and watch as even Marines need at least 15 lascannon shots to just kill Mephi (ignoring the rest of your army which will probably be in CC in round 2). Or just hide him behind advancing LoS blocking Rhinos, he should be able to follow thanks to 12" movement and fleet.
Yes, Mephi IS ridiculous (if you know how to use him), just compare him to the 10 pts. cheaper Ragnar Blackmane and you'll know what I mean. A character which is able to kill a whole army in CC and is able to be in CC in round 2 without costing less than 300 pts. IS broken (he even kills a C'tan in one go...). Yes, an anti list and certain units like ork mobz and TH/SS Termies or a eldar list with anti-psyker runes will eat him for breakfeast, but sadly not every army has these units.
The Sanguinor costs at least as much as Abbi...
I don't wanna know which unique units Black Templars will get if Mad Ward writes their codex. They'll probably be allowed to use Warhounds as Heavy Support choice or the Emperor himself as HQ...
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Post by: Eternal Newb
Yes, he is able to kill a lot in CC, but he costs as much as a Land Raider and dies easier than a Land Raider.
He is only scary if you ignore him.
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Post by: Cannerus_The_Unbearable
He's a demon prince. That's really what it boils down to.
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Post by: Alpharius
Close Combat really lost a lot of its impact and 'oomph' in 5th edition.
He's not the beast he once was...
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Post by: JGrand
I've played against him 3 times. I don't think he ever killed his 250 points back. Against Psychic Hoods he suffers, against Eldar with RoWarding he is in agony. Usually I've seen him kill a unit then get plasma'd to death. He has his uses but he is counter able.
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Post by: tedurur
AbaddonFidelis wrote:If you move the rhino 18" and he kills it mephiston dies. fast vehicle rules.
Read the rules again 
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Post by: Dashyl
He does have his perks, but i dont think hes all hes cracked up to be...
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Post by: Fafnir
Played him in a doubles match once. He managed to kick some serious ass, netting over 400 points, including an important vindicator, before he went down. If you can get him stuck in combat, he's a monster. It's just all about picking the right target and right movement.
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Post by: Steelmage99
I play Tyranids and I do seem to have some trouble with him.
His wings (cast outside of SotW range) allows him to charge and kill pretty much any MC at will- Even if you screen your MCs with cheap bubblewrap, what are you gonna do? Countercharge him? With what? Or let him finish the brood and go eat the MC anyway?
It appears that there are some players more experienced than me here so some advice would be appreciated.
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Post by: Elnicko5
Ive played him 4 times now, and I am not impressed. For his point cost, he really seems to fail to perform. Ive killed him with TH/SS Terminators, Ork Boyz, and Grey hunters, and haven't had him manage to do much damage back.
That being said, I've seen him fielded well, but normally in combo with a landraider (either in it, or behind it). The Landraider keeps him from getting shot up until he can reach combat. The problem is fielding them in unison is at least 500 points. He is undoubtedly a close combat monster, but he is over-costed.
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Post by: Fafnir
Swarm Lord with a Tyrant Guard retinue (with whips!) will usually do horrible things to Mephiston.
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Post by: Dashyl
I've seen him fielded once in a land raider, but that was a 4000 pt game, and he still marched through 800 pts of guard before he was taken down he seems to be more of nuisance than a treat if hes not in CC
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Post by: Jackal
what are you gonna do? Countercharge him? With what? Or let him finish the brood and go eat the MC anyway?
You throw The Swarmlord at him and force him to fail a LD test on 3D6, he then dies.
Throw death leaper into it and some other nasties and you drop his LD by 3 to start with.
When using him you need to either throw him in a transport, or behind one.
A unit of termies with sang priest in a raider make a nice cover target.
Move meph behind it so he cant get shot, and the fire will be aimed at the raider.
Once the termies spill out meph can assault a unit on his own while the termies do thier work.
Just need to keep showing your opponant nice targets that he cant ignore.
All las/ plas/melt aimed at that raider mean meph doesent lose a wound.
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Post by: Eidolon
۞ Jack ۞ wrote:what are you gonna do? Countercharge him? With what? Or let him finish the brood and go eat the MC anyway?
You throw The Swarmlord at him and force him to fail a LD test on 3D6, he then dies.
Throw death leaper into it and some other nasties and you drop his LD by 3 to start with.
When using him you need to either throw him in a transport, or behind one.
A unit of termies with sang priest in a raider make a nice cover target.
Move meph behind it so he cant get shot, and the fire will be aimed at the raider.
Once the termies spill out meph can assault a unit on his own while the termies do thier work.
Just need to keep showing your opponant nice targets that he cant ignore.
All las/ plas/melt aimed at that raider mean meph doesent lose a wound.
To be quite fair, is someone is showering your land raider with plasma shots you will probably win the game
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Post by: Jaon
Would an Inquisitor make him crai? Unlimited range psychic hood thank you very much.
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Post by: Fafnir
He'll still get his powers off half the time, and with the ability to use 3 a turn, he'll likely get at least one of the ones he wants off. It'll help, but don't expect it to go anywhere near shutting him down.
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Post by: Eidolon
Jaon wrote:Would an Inquisitor make him crai? Unlimited range psychic hood thank you very much.
Played against him in a team event, inquisitor with hood and shadows in the warp can really shut him down. He died to tyranid warriors with toxin sacs.
In all honesty mephiston strikes me as a huge waste of points. I use sanguinor in my BA army, but that is my super friendly fun time army, so I could care less. If i was building a competitive army it would be 2 librarians.
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Post by: zeekill
Eternal Newb wrote:Yes, he is able to kill a lot in CC, but he costs as much as a Land Raider and dies easier than a Land Raider.
He is only scary if you ignore him.
If you ignore him, he eats your face.
If you dont ignore him, you start to shoot at him while he is getting a 4+ Cover Save, probably not even killing him, and allowing the rest of my army to reach you unharmed.
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Post by: Eternal Newb
zeekill wrote:
If you ignore him, he eats your face.
If you dont ignore him, you start to shoot at him while he is getting a 4+ Cover Save, probably not even killing him, and allowing the rest of my army to reach you unharmed.
If you ignore him, then yea, he'll do some damage.
If you actually try and kill him, he dies pretty quickly.
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Post by: Nurglitch
Cannerus_The_Unbearable wrote:He's a demon prince. That's really what it boils down to.
His characteristics and rules more closely resemble those of a Keeper of Secrets, the surprise-buttsecks of Daemonkind.
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Post by: Madman49
I played mephiston once (2v2) my partner squished him like a bug with a carnifex (to be fair I did hit him with a couple of lascannons first) In that game my Ba oponent didn't get that far and my chaos player was suicidal
(templates backfiring, overheating, kharn killed a unit and a half of bezerkers over the course of his life then I run him down with a land raider)
Mephistons not that good, he can't join units which means he's sitting ducks with no invun. And in the fluff it states he doesn't talk to anyone anymore, that makes him a bad person (because he's rude and unfriendly) Automatically Appended Next Post: Nurglitch wrote:Cannerus_The_Unbearable wrote:He's a demon prince. That's really what it boils down to.
His characteristics and rules more closely resemble those of a Keeper of Secrets, the surprise-buttsecks of Daemonkind.
and it does state in da fluf that he was confronted by a tzeench dp who gave him a gift (don't know what it is) after trapping meph in a mystical cavern (which is another reason my he doesn't talk. Automatically Appended Next Post: I mean ba fluff (can't edit it I'm on my iPod)
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Post by: Steelmage99
Fafnir wrote:Swarm Lord with a Tyrant Guard retinue (with whips!) will usually do horrible things to Mephiston.
I find that Swarmlord with a TGuard will indeed eat Mephiston.
I also find that my opponent rarely gives me that opportunity.
Swarmlord (6" move) vs. Mephiston (12" move) is a race already decided.
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Post by: Brother-Thunder
The only thing Mephiston will ever get to assault in my army is my thunderhammer/stormshield and lightning claw terminators acting as a screen for Lysander.
Mephiston usually dies before we are offically stuck in.
He's not good. Take librarians, or commander dante.
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Post by: Jabbdo
Mephiston is good if you have other stuff that is scary too. My 1500 pt army has 3 lib dreads with wings, mephiston, and 5 double melta TLHF razors. You need antitank to kill anything, but what do you want to shoot? Statistically you need to make meph take 10 cover saves to kill him, meaning firing 10-11 lascannons/railguns/plasmacannons at him. But then those 10 antitank weapons arent going into my razors or libs. Usually the libs and meph can get into assault without having to go into melta range as they have wings. When I use mephiston I know he'll draw lots of fire, and i like that, because it keeps the rest of my stuff alive. If the enemy does ignore him hell smash stuff sure, but the rest of your army will suffer.
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Post by: Dashyl
From all the posts mephiston cheese seems to be a magnet for cannon fodder....
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Post by: Steelmage99
It has to be a serious case of cannon fodder.
Mephistons stats means that any fodder unit will have to be able to sustain a lot of casualties and still stick around. And they need to stick around for at least 2 assault phase in order to really achieve anything.
On top of that the fodder unit should be Stubborn, but not Fearless. Fearless just makes it worse.
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Post by: DarthDiggler
Some posters say that a skilled player can defeat Mehiston will little damage done, but in the hands of a skilled player Mephiston can become a monster who will tear the heart out an attack.
I used him in one game and he wiped out a Thunderwolf cav unit, taking 4 wounds in return. He then jumped up to the top of a building and brought a unit of grey hunters down to 2 guys before dieing to a perils of the warp attack. I didn't have anything else in the army that could deal with Thunderwolves so quickly and I was able to devote more resources in another area of the board to get the win.
Mephison didn't wade through the entire enemy army, but he surgically struck the most powerful threat to me and took it out. I think he is well worth the points.
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Post by: Steelmage99
I hear a lot of people say that Mephiston can easily be taken out or neutered.
I hear a lot of people say that Mephisons disadvantages (cost and non-IC) makes him easy to work around.
What I don't hear is anybody actually saying how they go about handling this supposed pushover of a character.
Some say that that he can be destroyed by good CC units. They just don't say how they convince Mephiston (with his 12" Jumppack move) to just stand still and wait for the charge.
Some say that he is to be whittled down by shooting (due to the lack of Invulnerable save). They just don't say how they focus fire the single easily-hid-able model (with potential FnP) before his Jumppack move allows him to make charges at his leisure.
Basically all I hear is a lot of people regurgitating what they have heard being thrown around as "established wisdom".
Or......I just don't see the glaring obvious tactic that allows me to squash Mephiston with such contemptuous ease. At least not when it comes to my Tyranids.
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Post by: Carnage43
@Steelmage, agreed with most of your post. Meph is NOT easy to kill for most people. A fast moving easily hidden T6 W5 2+ save character is difficult to kill. For marines you need to feed him a significant amount of plasma, lascannon and melta fire to take him down. That's all firepower that isn't dealing with transports full of melta-equipped assault marines, flying dreadnoughts and other faster vehicle killy-ness.
Tyranids IMO, have the easiest time dealing with Meph. He's going to charge you, so you have to be ready for it. Either bait him with a juicy unit and then counter-charge him, or bubble wrap your vulnerable stuff, or try to catch him with some shrikes, gargoyles or maybe Hormigaunts if you get lucky and lock him down for the big boys to stomp him.
What to kill him with; Lashwhip/Bonesword poison warriors/shrikes. He goes to I1, you wound on a 4+ and ignore his save, Shadow in the warp screws with his powers. Possible instant death is gravy, but not to be counted on. You can get ~5 of these warriors for Meph's cost. Try to get them preferred enemy via Old Adversary or the Swarmlord's buff to make extra sure he dies. 4+ to hit with a re-roll, 4+ to wound. On the charge you get 20 attacks. On average he takes 7.5 wounds from the 5 of them charging before he strikes. Dead.
Genestealers with Poison. Not as efficient, as you will take a fair bit of damage here, but you can get ~15 poison stealers for his cost. 4+ to hit (Hopefully with a re-roll) 4+ to wound, with 6's being instant wound. Broodlord helps here with his ability to shut Meph down completely and attempt to instant death him with implant attack.
Swarmlord + whip Guard; 3+ to hit, 4+ to wound, 1 wound = instant death. You have 4-5 dice to accomplish this before he will basically 1 shot your Swarmlord with the forceweapon. Dicey, but pretty much a guaranteed splat. Trouble is matching them up. Smart BA players won't allow this to happen.
Things to keep away from Meph; The obvious things like hive guard, Tyrannofexes and zoanthropes, they don't belong in combat. Also, non-Lashwhip/bonesword shrikes, warriors, Lictors, Tyranid Primes and raveners as they get instant deathed REALLY badly. Hive Tyrants, Mawlocs, Tervigons and Trygons should also avoid him, as that force weapon mean you are out 1 monstrous creature REALLY fast. Also, don't even bother shooting at him with zoans or much of anything else. His 2+ save and likely 4+ FnP makes small arms fire almost completely useless.
Now, If you play a list that is; HT/prime, Tervigon/termigant spam, some hive guard/zoans and some trygons....you are screwed basically.
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Post by: DarthDiggler
I agree that Mephiston has the toughest time against proper bug units, however seeing those units is not a given. Double boneswords gibe him trouble, but those are not commly fielded in numbers great enough to ensure he will face them. Poisoned Gants look nice on paper until you realize they hit him on 5's and that's not good. Genestealers, especially poisoned ones, are possibly the best option, but keeping them alive until they can get to him will be tricky.
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Post by: Jabbdo
I personally run mephiston behind a razor on the first turn, then go and attack squads which dont have hidden fists on sergeants and are near or within cover if possible. Crisis suits and broadside suits are great targets, avoid huge blobs of infantry because youll get tarpitted, avoid large squads with sergeant powerfists, cos the fist WILL take 1-2 wounds off meph per turn, and you dont want that. MC's are fine targets, if you can kill them before they strike. Basically with mephiston go for either 1. a powerful unit that could potentially hurt you but you should be able to kill before it strikes or 2. weak squads who are powerless against you, and who you can kill in 1-2 combat rounds, freeing you up for your next turn's movement.
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Post by: I-bounty-hunt-the-elderly
I think the real kicker about the character is that he's a demon prince or a tyranid monster that can hide from shooting behind a small wall or such. If such terrain is available, then he could be very dangerous.
It really would just come down to judgment and planning from each of the players - can the BA player pick a unit that costs nearly as much as Mephiston to attack, and/or a unit that he would reliably take 2 turns to destroy, and then move on to something else? Or can the non-BA player lure Mephiston out of hiding with a cannon-fodder unit, tarpitting him or leaving him pissing in the wind for a shooting phase?
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Post by: DarthDiggler
I-bounty-hunt-the-elderly wrote:- can the BA player pick a unit that costs nearly as much as Mephiston to attack, and/or a unit that he would reliably take 2 turns to destroy, and then move on to something else?
I don't think that's the way to approach it. We shouldn't go around looking for units of 250+pts to attack with Mephiston. We should look for units that will give the rest of our army trouble, either through accomplishing the mission or through just hammering our army, and Mephiston should target that unit.
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Post by: tedurur
Carnage43 wrote:@Steelmage, agreed with most of your post. Meph is NOT easy to kill for most people. A fast moving easily hidden T6 W5 2+ save character is difficult to kill. For marines you need to feed him a significant amount of plasma, lascannon and melta fire to take him down. That's all firepower that isn't dealing with transports full of melta-equipped assault marines, flying dreadnoughts and other faster vehicle killy-ness.
Marines do however have a hood, or atleast they should have...Also, plasma pretty much ment to be used to take out MCs and units like Mephy so you arent really wasting plasma. LCs ect are a diffrent story tho.
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Post by: AbaddonFidelis
SteelMage
The best way to deal with him honestly is to just shoot him. Even if he's in cover it's 50/50. At least against me if this guy steps out of cover for even one turn he's finished.
AF
Automatically Appended Next Post:
I think its interesting that the American players are almost unanimous in disliking him.... but the players from other countries are much more optimistic about his chances.
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Post by: Beerfart
Mephiston is a TOTAL waste of points....
...which is why the best general winner at Bolscon had him in his army.
...total waste.
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Post by: racta
I like to use him because everyone notices his weaknesses, and then believes that they can exploit them with ease.
When I don't play dumb with him, and he rips apart a solid section of the enemy... they wonder how it happened.
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Post by: edowney
AbaddonFidelis wrote:If you move the rhino 18" and he kills it mephiston dies. fast vehicle rules.
Whoa! Where's that in the fast vehicle rules? I'm new to 40k and could think of few situations in which I could use that. Specifically in my first match I played an Ork player who was intent on running his trukks flat out loaded with ork boyz. His idea was to ride up to my necrons as quick as he could and unload his cargo right in front of me in turn two. Now if I'm sitting at the 12" line and his two trukks have just moved flat out and are now at the 30" line that would put him 6" away from my front lines - well within the 24" range of my three 'liths and their particle whips that could get a destroyed on the trukks. Do they die if you get a wrecked? I looked on page 70 of the rule book but it didn't say anything about all passengers getting killed if a flat out vehicle is killed.
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Post by: Jabbdo
edowney wrote:AbaddonFidelis wrote:If you move the rhino 18" and he kills it mephiston dies. fast vehicle rules.
Whoa! Where's that in the fast vehicle rules? I'm new to 40k and could think of few situations in which I could use that. Specifically in my first match I played an Ork player who was intent on running his trukks flat out loaded with ork boyz. His idea was to ride up to my necrons as quick as he could and unload his cargo right in front of me in turn two. Now if I'm sitting at the 12" line and his two trukks have just moved flat out and are now at the 30" line that would put him 6" away from my front lines - well within the 24" range of my three 'liths and their particle whips that could get a destroyed on the trukks. Do they die if you get a wrecked? I looked on page 70 of the rule book but it didn't say anything about all passengers getting killed if a flat out vehicle is killed.
Nope, AF screwed it up, only skimmers going flat out are destroyed if they are immoblized. Normal vehicles arent.
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Post by: AbaddonFidelis
oh it's only skimmers. ok sorry.
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Post by: tedurur
AbaddonFidelis wrote:oh it's only skimmers. ok sorry.
no its not, nothing ebarked in the whole WH40k universe dies if they get shot down when thier ride went flat out. Dangerous terrain tests however...
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Post by: JGrand
I hear a lot of people say that Mephiston can easily be taken out or neutered.
I hear a lot of people say that Mephisons disadvantages (cost and non-IC) makes him easy to work around.
What I don't hear is anybody actually saying how they go about handling this supposed pushover of a character.
Some say that that he can be destroyed by good CC units. They just don't say how they convince Mephiston (with his 12" Jumppack move) to just stand still and wait for the charge.
Some say that he is to be whittled down by shooting (due to the lack of Invulnerable save). They just don't say how they focus fire the single easily-hid-able model (with potential FnP) before his Jumppack move allows him to make charges at his leisure.
Basically all I hear is a lot of people regurgitating what they have heard being thrown around as "established wisdom".
Or......I just don't see the glaring obvious tactic that allows me to squash Mephiston with such contemptuous ease. At least not when it comes to my Tyranids.
In my experience of playing against him twice he managed to get in and kill a unit each time and afterwards I shot him with plasma/melta. The first it was my Plague Marines and a Tyrannid player vs Blood Angels. Mephiston charged a Guant squad and won the combat in 3 player turns. He was then shot by both of my PM squads (1 2x plasma, 1 2x melta, 2 combi plasma on rhino) and died. Now the Blood Angels player could have used him better but I'll address that later.
The second game I charged him with a Daemon Prince which I believe was wounded. He proceeded to kill it and then got shot by 2 obliterators and another plasma toting PM squad and died.
Now, did the Blood Angels player use him to his full potential- the answer is likely no. But without going too in depth to the battle I'll point out that when I play my Death Guard list I usually move my force together. I have lesser daemons as a good tarpit to throw at Meph and plenty of weapons to wound and kill him once he's close. Meph wants to be close. Picking and choosing the correct time to assault with him isn't always easy, especially against Mech forces. Its very unlikely that he's allowed to kill more than one unit without the opponent getting a chance to shoot him.
It seems Meph is good at tackling a squad and hoping to win combat in 1 turn so he can assault again without being shot. This isn't so easy though. Basically the bottom line is shoot the guy. And even with a 7-10 man tactical squad with a powerfist, you can reasonably hope to wound him once. So assault isn't out of the question. To a Meph opponent the key to me is damage control. I'll let him kill 200 points if it means he dies. In the 2 games I've played he's done less than that.
Against Nids I'd say you should have less of a problem. 30 poisoned guants will tie him up and wear him down. Lash wips combined with anything that ignores armor makes him cry, especially if that is also poisoned. Nids have to beat him in CC most likely but have the goods to do it. A Tryant with Boneswords and Tryant guard with whips could probably so it in a turn.
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Post by: Dashyl
If i personally was going to run him in my army, id run him behind a wall of razor backs, since he is a librarian he does have a psychic hood. So id move the wall forward and let him follow. So when my backs get into combat hes there to.
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Post by: Acardia
I plan on running him a few times to see what Ideas I have for him. I know he has no I save, so I would run him near libby dreads for shield. This will screen him until they hit the line of combat.
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Post by: puma713
zeekill wrote:Most people are too stupid to use him correctly.
zeekill wrote:You put him in a rhino, go 18" first turn into terrain and pop smoke launchers.
This is too funny to me.
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Post by: Brother-Thunder
Steelmage99 wrote:I hear a lot of people say that Mephiston can easily be taken out or neutered.
I hear a lot of people say that Mephisons disadvantages (cost and non-IC) makes him easy to work around.
What I don't hear is anybody actually saying how they go about handling this supposed pushover of a character.
Some say that that he can be destroyed by good CC units. They just don't say how they convince Mephiston (with his 12" Jumppack move) to just stand still and wait for the charge.
Some say that he is to be whittled down by shooting (due to the lack of Invulnerable save). They just don't say how they focus fire the single easily-hid-able model (with potential FnP) before his Jumppack move allows him to make charges at his leisure.
Basically all I hear is a lot of people regurgitating what they have heard being thrown around as "established wisdom".
Or......I just don't see the glaring obvious tactic that allows me to squash Mephiston with such contemptuous ease. At least not when it comes to my Tyranids.
I de-mech you turn 1 with 6 meltas in your face. You have no cover.
I have my assault units in land raiders. I move as fast as you.
all my shooty units are in transports. You can't easily assault my guys.
I use a librarian. You can't use your powers half the time.
He becomes a walking fire-magnet without cover, only to be assaulted should he get close enough.
That is how I counter mephiston.
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Post by: Jackal
To be quite fair, is someone is showering your land raider with plasma shots you will probably win the game
Since you want to be picky, you mean *if someone*
Not *is someone*
Now, that would be a dickish thing to do wouldnt it.
Makes more sense for them to be aimed at the termies that get out?
Didnt think i would have to add in about shooting the unit when it gets out, since that seems to explain its self.
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Post by: puma713
۞ Jack ۞ wrote:
Throw death leaper into it and some other nasties and you drop his LD by 3 to start with.
And yeah, he's not an Independant Character or an Upgrade Character.
From what I've read in this thread, it seems like people have played against BA and the BA general is throwing Mephiston at his opponent's Death Star. Mephiston getting charged by Swarmlord? When Mephiston has a potential 24" reach? He shouldn't be getting charged by anything that he doesn't want to get charged by.
Sounds like, to me, the BA generals that have been fielding him have been doing so hoping he's going to carry the weight of the game on his shoulders. He doesn't. He is great for a few things. One is diversion. People take a lot of Missile Launchers. Meph shrugs off missile launchers, especially with a Sanguinary Priest around. Also, he controls the field. Whether or not people like it, people fear him (whether rationally or not). Put him somewhere and the opponent's Deathstar will probably move that way. While they do that, you capitalize on Mephiston's ability to control the battlefield.
He's much more than just a statline. Automatically Appended Next Post: Beerfart wrote:Mephiston is a TOTAL waste of points....
...which is why the best general winner at Bolscon had him in his army.
...total waste.
And. . .this.
25983
Post by: Jackal
He shouldn't be getting charged by anything that he doesn't want to get charged by
Thats why you use cheap units to hold him down or control where he goes.
for example: Whip and sword warriors will do great against him, so he wont go near them.
Thats a nice footprint of the board thats meph free.
Or, you could do the sensible thing and throw a unit of gargs at him to hold him down.
S10 and force wep dont do alot against weak units.
Caught me out on the IC rule though, forgot about that one for some reason 0_o (i need to re-read some nid rules 1st me thinks)
19754
Post by: puma713
tedurur wrote:AbaddonFidelis wrote:If you move the rhino 18" and he kills it mephiston dies. fast vehicle rules.
Read the rules again
Not to mention the fact that putting Mephiston in a Rhino and moving 18" in the first turn doesn't even work.
All the transports (save for Land Speeder Storms) in the BA codex are Dedicated. That means Mephiston has to borrow someone's. That also means that Mephiston cannot begin in the transport.
Therefore, on turn 1, Mephiston must embark upon said Rhino.
Units may not embark or disembark if a fast vehicle has moved or plans to move flat out.
32685
Post by: Reprisal
The pros seems to outweigh the cons, so I'll be including Mephiston in my primary list. I can see how some people think he's invincible and leave him out in open or throw him into a unit he's not prepared to handle on his own, but if you're doing that to begin with, you need to read the rulebook again. And again.
19754
Post by: puma713
Brother-Thunder wrote:
I de-mech you turn 1 with 6 meltas in your face. You have no cover.
I have my assault units in land raiders. I move as fast as you.
all my shooty units are in transports. You can't easily assault my guys.
I use a librarian. You can't use your powers half the time.
He becomes a walking fire-magnet without cover, only to be assaulted should he get close enough.
That is how I counter mephiston.
Wow, with everything always working in your favor, you must win all your tournaments. 
30949
Post by: AbaddonFidelis
Puma
The squad gets out. Mephiston gets in. The transport moves. All happens on turn 1.
So...errr.....you're wrong 
AF
19754
Post by: puma713
AbaddonFidelis wrote:Puma
The squad gets out. Mephiston gets in. The transport moves. All happens on turn 1.
So...errr.....you're wrong
AF
It doesn't move 18" as was previously mentioned. So...err...you're wrong
6769
Post by: Tri
As an eldar player can i just say If you place any high threat single model unit on the board it will eat Lascannons (or equivalent). Nothing wrong with that a Wratih lord in cover: it distracts from the rest of my army but then it doesn't cost too much.
Mephiston in a rhino ... well I'll shoot it a little and get him out of it and then shoot him some more (may be next turn if he's far away). He totally stuffed if he ever goes up against a large squad of Boyz, or a blob of IG with a commissar.
21152
Post by: Ragnar Blackmane
Brother-Thunder wrote:I de-mech you turn 1 with 6 meltas in your face. You have no cover.
Mephiston is standing in the middle of a Ass-Squad with priest and gets cover = you lost one unit
I have my assault units in land raiders. I move as fast as you.
Mephi moves 12" AND has fleet, he moves faster than you. Oh, and he can jump over terrain and units, which you can't. And the BA player probably got ways to deal with a LR...
all my shooty units are in transports. You can't easily assault my guys.
Well, AV 11 is not that hard to crack with shooting...
I use a librarian. You can't use your powers half the time.
Too bad he'll be quite close to you already once you got him within your matrix.
In the end all that matters to Mephi is his JP-power, if you're not able to block it you're screwed.
He becomes a walking fire-magnet without cover, only to be assaulted should he get close enough.
You would really assault Mephi? Sounds like a wise plan xD...
And really, I wonder how you would force him to walk alone or outside cover...
In the end all that matters to Mephi is his JP-power, if you're not able to block it you're screwed.
29029
Post by: Slick
All these counters to Mephiston are perfect because if you run him you dont have any other units whatsoever so its automatically everything vs him. I mean its always an easy pick between shooting mephiston or a storm raven with terminators and a furioso in it, or a land raider filled to the brim with death company and a chaplain.
He is obviously a good unit and worth his points if people have to dedicate time to specifically come up with plans to work around a list that uses him.
14932
Post by: Norade
Here's a counter to Mephiston, play an all Nurgle chaos daemon army. Land decently far away from him, and bubble wrap in nurglings. Oh you can put out ten strength ten attacks in a round, great! You killed a single base of nurglings and another base is down two wounds from fearless.
Or against plague bearers he'll be facing poisoned attacks and he'll roll ones eventually.
If you hide your tallyman in the back and get some kills eventually Mephiston dies to little nurgling bases.
5580
Post by: Eidolon
hahaha are you implying an all nurgle demon army is competitive against anything. I mean sure it might annoy mephiston but wont do squat to the rest of the ba army.
14932
Post by: Norade
A mostly Nurgle army can be competitive in that if you play it right you'll be very hard to make lose and can contest things well. It's just too bad you can't make MoN Soulgrinders... The list almost certainly won't table you though so you won't win a tourney with a pure Nurgle list
8800
Post by: Cannerus_The_Unbearable
Eidolon wrote:hahaha are you implying an all nurgle demon army is competitive against anything. I mean sure it might annoy mephiston but wont do squat to the rest of the ba army.
I play one against casual opponents and you'd honestly be surprised. My "competitive" list doesn't move too far away from theme and it still does pretty well.
5580
Post by: Eidolon
Ive found that lack of speed and solid killiness really hurts nurgle.
8800
Post by: Cannerus_The_Unbearable
The tidbit about your slow army possibly deepstriking even further away form the opponent hurts too  You really just have to play the scenario the best you can and take advantage of when your opponent underestimates you.
32432
Post by: Brother-Thunder
puma713 wrote:Brother-Thunder wrote:
I de-mech you turn 1 with 6 meltas in your face. You have no cover.
I have my assault units in land raiders. I move as fast as you.
all my shooty units are in transports. You can't easily assault my guys.
I use a librarian. You can't use your powers half the time.
He becomes a walking fire-magnet without cover, only to be assaulted should he get close enough.
That is how I counter mephiston.
Wow, with everything always working in your favor, you must win all your tournaments.
Loaded dice are nice!! 
In actuality, I am saying how all of mephiston's advantages are negated easily when you got the right tools. He is not that threatening when you got the weapons to deal with him.
Ragnar Blackmane wrote:Brother-Thunder wrote:I de-mech you turn 1 with 6 meltas in your face. You have no cover.
Mephiston is standing in the middle of a Ass-Squad with priest and gets cover = you lost one unit
I have my assault units in land raiders. I move as fast as you.
Mephi moves 12" AND has fleet, he moves faster than you. Oh, and he can jump over terrain and units, which you can't. And the BA player probably got ways to deal with a LR...
all my shooty units are in transports. You can't easily assault my guys.
Well, AV 11 is not that hard to crack with shooting...
I use a librarian. You can't use your powers half the time.
Too bad he'll be quite close to you already once you got him within your matrix.
In the end all that matters to Mephi is his JP-power, if you're not able to block it you're screwed.
He becomes a walking fire-magnet without cover, only to be assaulted should he get close enough.
You would really assault Mephi? Sounds like a wise plan xD...
And really, I wonder how you would force him to walk alone or outside cover...
In the end all that matters to Mephi is his JP-power, if you're not able to block it you're screwed.
I would be more than happy to drop a vindicator template on Meph and the squad he is using as a meatshield.
Fleet will, at max, get 18 inches. A land raider moving 12 and disembarking 2 is 14. He will never be out of assault range unless he got an assault after.
While that is true, smoke helps increase durability.
denying str10 and/or denying rerolls to hit and wound against a squad is always a bonus.
and when it is assault terminators in question, YES, assaulting mephiston is a great idea.
8800
Post by: Cannerus_The_Unbearable
Brother-Thunder wrote:He is not that threatening when you got the weapons to deal with him.
Which include a Lasgun. Having extensive experience running T6 creatures, it's extremely frustrating when the weakest gun in the game is capable of killing you. Even a few rapid fire bolter squads can put some wounds on him.
19754
Post by: puma713
Cannerus_The_Unbearable wrote:Brother-Thunder wrote:He is not that threatening when you got the weapons to deal with him.
Which include a Lasgun. Having extensive experience running T6 creatures, it's extremely frustrating when the weakest gun in the game is capable of killing you. Even a few rapid fire bolter squads can put some wounds on him.
Well, it is a numbers game, after all.
32432
Post by: Brother-Thunder
puma713 wrote:Cannerus_The_Unbearable wrote:Brother-Thunder wrote:He is not that threatening when you got the weapons to deal with him.
Which include a Lasgun. Having extensive experience running T6 creatures, it's extremely frustrating when the weakest gun in the game is capable of killing you. Even a few rapid fire bolter squads can put some wounds on him.
Well, it is a numbers game, after all.
I have seen more than once a trygon going down to conscript fire.
Never gets old. Never.
8800
Post by: Cannerus_The_Unbearable
I've lost a Lord of Change to an 80 point penal legion unit exclusively on turn 1 in a Planetstrike game. Lasguns shouldn't be able to hurt Greater Daemons IMO. That's another thread though
21399
Post by: tedurur
puma713 wrote:AbaddonFidelis wrote:Puma
The squad gets out. Mephiston gets in. The transport moves. All happens on turn 1.
So...errr.....you're wrong
AF
It doesn't move 18" as was previously mentioned. So...err...you're wrong
I love how the self proclaimed WH40k guru always comes up lacking when it comes to the rules...
30949
Post by: AbaddonFidelis
Don't have a copy of the rule book so it's hard for me to respond to Puma or to you on this specific point. Based on that I bowed out of the conversation. Could be wrong. You should learn not to take disagreements so personally ted.
AF
19307
Post by: Liquidice281
I love mephiston, he is a beast in CC, but like all units he has his weakness....
Twin linked plasma gun obliterators ..... ouchies
In a average round of combat, Mephiston will kill 5 people on the charge. Not bad in my opinion.
30949
Post by: AbaddonFidelis
I don't see him going toe to toe with some of the beastliest of close combat squads. no invulnerable save? ugh. The best close combat units have power weapons, and many of them have a good invulnerable save too. Wolf Lords, Assault Terminators, Blood Crushers all come to mind... And the things that he'll wreck are better wrecked with other squads because they aren't as vulnerable and expensive as he is. Thunder wolves come to mind here...
Basically the things he's really strong against he's overkill. The things you really need to wreck have a good chance of living through his crazy attacks and hitting him back with high strength power weapon/monstrous creature attacks.
Besides that the 1st time he sticks his head out of cover he's dogmeat. His flight ability isn't gaurunteed either. Can't understand why he doesn't have a jump pack like the rest of the army.
I think you can do better in that codex. He's really kill sure but 250 points of almost any specialized assault squad is pretty killy too, and probably a good deal tougher.
AF
21737
Post by: murdog
I call him the mini-monster. I've seem him do heavy damage, and do nothing.
He forces some serious maneuvering duels. If he out-maneuvers you, he can be decisive in your defeat. If you isolate or quickly kill him it can be decisive in your victory.
21399
Post by: tedurur
AbaddonFidelis wrote:Don't have a copy of the rule book so it's hard for me to respond to Puma or to you on this specific point. Based on that I bowed out of the conversation. Could be wrong. You should learn not to take disagreements so personally ted.
AF
Why would you even start posting stuff that you know nothing about, personally I prefer to not say anything when Im not sure about something instead of risk giving false advice to someone.
Wolflords beats Mephistion? Thats news to me. Blood chrusers would pretty much stomp him but why would he be in HtH with them? All that asid, I agree that he is not the end all be all character that some people claims, but he is also not the crappy ass charater as some others claim. I dont know, but maybe he might even be blanaced?? 
32750
Post by: Jabbdo
AbaddonFidelis wrote:I don't see him going toe to toe with some of the beastliest of close combat squads. no invulnerable save? ugh. The best close combat units have power weapons, and many of them have a good invulnerable save too. Wolf Lords, Assault Terminators, Blood Crushers all come to mind... And the things that he'll wreck are better wrecked with other squads because they aren't as vulnerable and expensive as he is. Thunder wolves come to mind here...
Basically the things he's really strong against he's overkill. The things you really need to wreck have a good chance of living through his crazy attacks and hitting him back with high strength power weapon/monstrous creature attacks.
Besides that the 1st time he sticks his head out of cover he's dogmeat. His flight ability isn't gaurunteed either. Can't understand why he doesn't have a jump pack like the rest of the army.
I think you can do better in that codex. He's really kill sure but 275 points of almost any specialized assault squad is pretty killy too, and probably a good deal tougher.
AF
Thats because he's not meant to go toe to toe with THSS terms and other annoying deathstar units with good invuls. He's used to smack vehicles, walkers, MC's, and units with good armor but poor/no invulnerable saves. The stuff that can catch Meph is very rarely capable of killing him. 250pts BTW. And you get 3 attempts at wings, although you triple your chances of suffering perils it means youll almost always have wings when you need it.
30949
Post by: AbaddonFidelis
tedurur wrote:AbaddonFidelis wrote:Don't have a copy of the rule book so it's hard for me to respond to Puma or to you on this specific point. Based on that I bowed out of the conversation. Could be wrong. You should learn not to take disagreements so personally ted.
AF
Why would you even start posting stuff that you know nothing about, personally I prefer to not say anything when Im not sure about something instead of risk giving false advice to someone.
Wolflords beats Mephistion? Thats news to me. Blood chrusers would pretty much stomp him but why would he be in HtH with them? All that asid, I agree that he is not the end all be all character that some people claims, but he is also not the crappy ass charater as some others claim. I dont know, but maybe he might even be blanaced??
who cares what you personally would do? but yes I jumped the gun, so I let it go. You appear to be having some trouble with that, however.....
Yes wolflords beat mephiston, because the wolf lord has the strength to get through mephiston's toughness with a power weapon, while mephiston has no way of getting through the wolf lord's storm shield. The Wolf Lord is 3+ to hit 4+ to wound (+1 str. frostblade +1 str thunderwolf - don't have the book in front of me there may be other reasons he's even higher strength) or 2+ to wound (thunderhammer) and then mephiston gets no save. Additionally wolf lords have a way of travelling in squads, which mephiston cannot do, so I don't think it's realistic to suppose that he will be unaccompanied. he's crappy because he's an overpriced red herring. As I said alot of very tough units in this game cost less than he does, kill just as much if not more than he does, have invulnerable saves which he does not, and have no problem killing him if they run into him. Based on that criteria, especially in the Blood Angels codex, whcih is so full of awesomeness, yes, he's :::revised::: "sub-optimal" (not crap.)
AF
32750
Post by: Jabbdo
AbaddonFidelis wrote:tedurur wrote:AbaddonFidelis wrote:Don't have a copy of the rule book so it's hard for me to respond to Puma or to you on this specific point. Based on that I bowed out of the conversation. Could be wrong. You should learn not to take disagreements so personally ted.
AF
Why would you even start posting stuff that you know nothing about, personally I prefer to not say anything when Im not sure about something instead of risk giving false advice to someone.
Wolflords beats Mephistion? Thats news to me. Blood chrusers would pretty much stomp him but why would he be in HtH with them? All that asid, I agree that he is not the end all be all character that some people claims, but he is also not the crappy ass charater as some others claim. I dont know, but maybe he might even be blanaced??
who cares what you personally would do? but yes I jumped the gun, so I let it go. You appear to be having some trouble with that, however.....
Yes wolflords beat mephiston, because the wolf lord has the strength to get through mephiston's toughness with a power weapon, while mephiston has no way of getting through the wolf lord's storm shield. The Wolf Lord is 3+ to hit 4+ to wound (+1 str. frostblade +1 str thunderwolf - don't have the book in front of me there may be other reasons he's even higher strength) or 2+ to wound (thunderhammer) and then mephiston gets no save. Additionally wolf lords have a way of travelling in squads, which mephiston cannot do, so I don't think it's realistic to suppose that he will be unaccompanied. he's crappy because he's an overpriced red herring. As I said alot of very tough units in this game cost less than he does, kill just as much if not more than he does, have invulnerable saves which he does not, and have no problem killing him if they run into him. Based on that criteria, especially in the Blood Angels codex, whcih is so full of awesomeness, yes, he's crap.
AF
Yes, mephiston has problems. Yes, THSS terms cost less than he does and yet kill him. Yes, a psychic hood will rape him. Yes, he dies to hidden power fists because of a lack of invulnerable save. No, he is not, however, crap, as you claim. Can your THSS terms kill any vehicle in the game? No they cannot. Can you THSS terms move 24" a turn? No they cannot. Do your THSS terms provide psychic defense? No they do not. What happens when your THSS terms run into a ctan? They die. Ok so your THSS terms are in a raider. What if I destroy the raider? You think your 12" charge range scares me? No. Can you hide your THSS terms behind a single bush/tree/wall? Its gonna have to be a pretty big tree.
Mephiston is not unbeatable by any means, and he has serious flaws, however, claiming that he is utter crap is bs. Show me how your THSS terms can kill 6 different units, all 18"+ away from each other, in a single game. Guess what? They can't. But Mephiston can, and, if ignored, believe me, he will.
20172
Post by: Kroot Loops
Mephiston is typically a footnote in Ork lists with Thraka, a larger assault range than Meph when in a RPJ BW, and barring dice rolling on the extreme ends of the possibility scale, Thraka out combat monsters Meph on the Waagh (which is the only time they'll be in assault together with a skilled Ork Player).
19754
Post by: puma713
AbaddonFidelis wrote:tedurur wrote:AbaddonFidelis wrote:Don't have a copy of the rule book so it's hard for me to respond to Puma or to you on this specific point. Based on that I bowed out of the conversation. Could be wrong. You should learn not to take disagreements so personally ted.
AF
Why would you even start posting stuff that you know nothing about, personally I prefer to not say anything when Im not sure about something instead of risk giving false advice to someone.
Wolflords beats Mephistion? Thats news to me. Blood chrusers would pretty much stomp him but why would he be in HtH with them? All that asid, I agree that he is not the end all be all character that some people claims, but he is also not the crappy ass charater as some others claim. I dont know, but maybe he might even be blanaced??
who cares what you personally would do? but yes I jumped the gun, so I let it go. You appear to be having some trouble with that, however.....
Yes wolflords beat mephiston, because the wolf lord has the strength to get through mephiston's toughness with a power weapon, while mephiston has no way of getting through the wolf lord's storm shield. The Wolf Lord is 3+ to hit 4+ to wound (+1 str. frostblade +1 str thunderwolf - don't have the book in front of me there may be other reasons he's even higher strength) or 2+ to wound (thunderhammer) and then mephiston gets no save. Additionally wolf lords have a way of travelling in squads, which mephiston cannot do, so I don't think it's realistic to suppose that he will be unaccompanied. he's crappy because he's an overpriced red herring. As I said alot of very tough units in this game cost less than he does, kill just as much if not more than he does, have invulnerable saves which he does not, and have no problem killing him if they run into him. Based on that criteria, especially in the Blood Angels codex, whcih is so full of awesomeness, yes, he's crap.
AF
We'll just have to agree to disagree. I know your above post wasn't directed at me, but I don't agree that Mephiston is crap, even compared to other units in the BA codex. For instance, in your Wolf Lord scenario above (not that I would throw Mephiston into an entire unit of Thunderwolves), but Mephiston will go first with (more than likely) Str. 10. If I was planning on throwing Mephiston at a wolf Lord, I wouldn't necessarily take his Preferred Enemy power. I would save one power for the Force Weapon (unless you took Saga of the Bear, which I don't see many take). So, you make a test at -4 Ld for me to reroll hits and wounds, I go first with 6 attacks and all I need is one to go through. Are Thunderwolf lords Tough 6? If not, he's insta-killed. If so, he has a chance to be insta-killed by the Force Weapon.
Either way, I'd put my money on Mephiston. But, for the sake of argument, let's say he doesn't kill the Wolf Lord. And the Wolf Lord gets what? 5 attacks back? He needs to hit with every one. At a 3+, he's going to hit with 67%. So, already he probably won't kill Mephiston. And, again, Mephiston will go first next turn.
While being in a unit changes the dynamic (like I said, I wouldn't throw Mephiston into a unit of Thunderwolves with a Lord, unless of course he was backed up by his terminator meatshield), the tactics are not quite as cut-and-dry as you make them out to be. Automatically Appended Next Post: Kroot Loops wrote:Mephiston is typically a footnote in Ork lists with Thraka, a larger assault range than Meph when in a RPJ BW, and barring dice rolling on the extreme ends of the possibility scale, Thraka out combat monsters Meph on the Waagh (which is the only time they'll be in assault together with a skilled Ork Player).
And this isn't necessarily true either. People keep comparing Mephiston as if he's the only unit on the board, in perfect conditions. That's not how you play Meph. You don't walk him in front of your entire army, asking a Battlewagon to run down your throat and disgorge Thraka and a unit of Nobs into him. You put him behind a wall of TH/ SS termis with a Sanguinary Priest. You put him in a LR or a Rhino. You keep him in cover or near a Libby with Shield of Sanguinus. But you don't just run amok with him - that's asking for him to be killed. You actually have to play him.
And, let's keep it in perspective. Thraka on the Waagh has 1 more inch of assault range than Meph. My brother plays Orks and we've had the discussion before. On the Waagh!, it's a good fight. Off the Waagh!, Mephiston wins. Course, Thraka is rarely alone. But, although Mephiston can't join squads, it doesn't mean he's always alone either.
People need to stop pitting their entire army (well I'd do this and I've taken all these units, so there's no way that he'd. . .etc., etc.) against one 250 pt. unit.
32750
Post by: Jabbdo
@ puma713
Well said. People keep assuming that meph is just standing around in the open waiting for something to come and kill him. Of course a good player using mephiston will be aware of what he is capable of, and wont throw him away in a useless combat he cant win.
21399
Post by: tedurur
Wolf Lords are indeed T5 so Meph will go first and a single wound means that the Wolf Lord dies, so yes. Meph will beat a WL.
30949
Post by: AbaddonFidelis
Jab
ummmm.... maybe I'm overlooking something.... what ability does mephiston have that makes him more likely to kill a vehicle than a TH/ SS terminators....?
No TH/ SS terminators can't move 24" a turn, but given a transport they can move 20" so w/e.
No they don't provide psychic defenses but I can get that job done with other units in the same army so while it's a perk to get it on mephiston it's not vital.
Who runs C'tan? Sorry this point is just a bust.
TH/ SS terminators have a 20" assault range, not a 12" assault range, out of a land raider. After I've moved it twice and the terminators get out I really don't care what happens to it. And no my terminators can't hide behind a single tree and don't need to. That's my point. Mephiston hides, Terminators don't give a  they get out in front.
Yes if Mephiston is ignored he can run amok. If your opponent ignores him he's a slow anyway and you don't need to run a 250 point special character to whip him. Obviously your opponent won't be ignoring him.....
AF
32432
Post by: Brother-Thunder
at this point, the role of mephiston is almost the same as a vindicator.
Ignore it, you WILL lose squads to it. Don't ignore it, then the rest of my army moves up.
Vindicators in the Blood Angels codex I believe are 145. so for 150 or something points more, you get a psychic hood, smaller but just as threatening fire magnet, and a MC killer.
He is not perfect, but I can see uses for him. Still, Lysander wishes to have a word with him, if I get to play against him again! 
30949
Post by: AbaddonFidelis
saga of the bear.... ted.
20172
Post by: Kroot Loops
Kroot Loops wrote:Mephiston is typically a footnote in Ork lists with Thraka, a larger assault range than Meph when in a RPJ BW, and barring dice rolling on the extreme ends of the possibility scale, Thraka out combat monsters Meph on the Waagh (which is the only time they'll be in assault together with a skilled Ork Player).
And this isn't necessarily true either. People keep comparing Mephiston as if he's the only unit on the board, in perfect conditions. That's not how you play Meph. You don't walk him in front of your entire army, asking a Battlewagon to run down your throat and disgorge Thraka and a unit of Nobs into him. You put him behind a wall of TH/ SS termis with a Sanguinary Priest. You put him in a LR or a Rhino. You keep him in cover or near a Libby with Shield of Sanguinus. But you don't just run amok with him - that's asking for him to be killed. You actually have to play him.
And, let's keep it in perspective. Thraka on the Waagh has 1 more inch of assault range than Meph. My brother plays Orks and we've had the discussion before. On the Waagh!, it's a good fight. Off the Waagh!, Mephiston wins. Course, Thraka is rarely alone. But, although Mephiston can't join squads, it doesn't mean he's always alone either.
People need to stop pitting their entire army (well I'd do this and I've taken all these units, so there's no way that he'd. . .etc., etc.) against one 250 pt. unit.
And your example isn't true either, because I *also* have an entire army that I know how to play, and it's not like I can't tie up your Termies with a crap ton of boys, or simply tank shock multiple deffrollas straight through them. We're discussing a single model in the BA range, I'm keeping to that.
Let's *do* keep it in perspective. Thraka from a BW has a 27" assault range. Meph on his own has 17-24". From a LR he has 21" to 26". His fleet is not the constant 6" that Thraka's is.
Why would I send Thraka in with Nobs? So you can insta-kill them and get combat Res? I don't think so, I send one model with a 2++ and immune to ID in for you to flail at. I've killed Meph over half a dozen times in this manner, and I've never taken more than two wounds in the process.
782
Post by: DarthDiggler
Thraka will never get to assault Mephiston. You can't add a Battlewagon to Thraka and not add - ohh let's say - 9 Multi-melta speeders to Mephiston. How is that Battlewagon getting Thraka anywhere again?
32432
Post by: Brother-Thunder
even with mephiston getting the charge, thraka on his WAAAGH! will still win against him.
a 2 up invul is a bitch.
Mephiston has the mobility to target dem lootaz or meganobz that conviently lack an invul save. Those killa kans giving you problems? Mephiston is good at killing them too.
21399
Post by: tedurur
AbaddonFidelis wrote:saga of the bear.... ted.
Do you reallt think that saga of the bear is a saga you usually see on Wolf Lords?
20172
Post by: Kroot Loops
DarthDiggler wrote:Thraka will never get to assault Mephiston. You can't add a Battlewagon to Thraka and not add - ohh let's say - 9 Multi-melta speeders to Mephiston. How is that Battlewagon getting Thraka anywhere again?
Yes, because Thraka in a BW is so *uncommon* a build and 9 speeders is so common.... Regardless, you better hope the Ork Player doesn't go first, deff kopta alpha strike and loota's will put a pretty good hurt on speeder squadrons, enough so that the KFF might become an issue for you.
30949
Post by: AbaddonFidelis
yes....I do.... for the very reasons we are discussing.
32750
Post by: Jabbdo
@ AF
My point is that meph is always jumppacking around, take away a term squads raider and they are reduced to 6"+run per turn. Dont get me wrong, terms are good, but comparing them to meph is wrong, as they both fulfil a different role. Thats why I have them both in my BA army
19754
Post by: puma713
AbaddonFidelis wrote:Jab
ummmm.... maybe I'm overlooking something.... what ability does mephiston have that makes him more likely to kill a vehicle than a TH/SS terminators....?
Str. 10 is an auto-pen in all but two cases. TH/ SS can still roll ones.
Edit: There are a couple of 11 rear armors. So I guess in all but a "few" cases.
30949
Post by: AbaddonFidelis
fair enough Jab
I see what you mean Puma. the TH/SS termies have so many more attacks that I think it balances out...
19754
Post by: puma713
AbaddonFidelis wrote:fair enough Jab
I see what you mean Puma. the TH/SS termies have so many more attacks that I think it balances out...
I suppose. I rarely take a full unit of TH/ SS. Usually I mix it up with some Lightning Claws.
30949
Post by: AbaddonFidelis
I mix them too. I don't think either of them really shine against vehicles.....
AF
30717
Post by: Dashyl
I think his strong point is really the number of attacks he has and his initiative, remove his initiative and he loses his strength
30949
Post by: AbaddonFidelis
yes his initiative is awesome no doubt.
5873
Post by: kirsanth
Just because people keep saying Mephiston is not a character. . .
That is incorrect, as only characters are Unique.
Deathleaper works wonders on Mephiston.
He is still mean, but nothing boneswords (or bonesabres!) and lashwhips cannot handle--especially given that they are generally weilded by creatures with SitW.
5580
Post by: Eidolon
PBS can work pretty well on mephiston. (my understanding of the rule is that the -to ld lasts through the opponents turn)
19754
Post by: puma713
kirsanth wrote:Just because people keep saying Mephiston is not a character. . .
That is incorrect, as only characters are Unique.
Deathleaper works wonders on Mephiston.
He is still mean, but nothing boneswords (or bonesabres!) and lashwhips cannot handle--especially given that they are generally weilded by creatures with SitW.
True, but even GW said "He is just a single model in his own right." I would've thought they would have made it clear that he is a character, if he was.
5873
Post by: kirsanth
It is perfectly clear that he is unique, a rule that requires the model to be a character.
25983
Post by: Jackal
Kirsanth; so my last idea of using deathleaper and swarmlord would indeed work as i 1st said, quality
Just need to pin him down with gargs 1st.
Failing that, deathleaper and whip/sword warriors should do it.
16439
Post by: General_Chaos
I played a Blood Angel player at a Tournament, turn 2, Ghazghkull alone cut Mefiston in two, Blood Angel player was sad the rest of the match lol
25983
Post by: Jackal
Then that BA player needs a slap.
He should have known what ghaz could do and should have kept meph back until after the waaagh! move.
Failing that, he should have got to him on turn 1 instead.
19754
Post by: puma713
kirsanth wrote:It is perfectly clear that he is unique, a rule that requires the model to be a character.
The rule on page 49 states, "Special Characters can be either Independant or Upgrade characters." So, which is Mephiston, Kirsanth? And where does it point out which of the two he is?
Edit: And you'll note in your link that I used to agree with your take on it. I'm not so sure anymore. I would've thought that GW would have clarified in their FAQ when they were asked if he was a character and they simply answered, "No, he is merely a unit consisting of a single model."
5873
Post by: kirsanth
Did you read the linked thread? kirsanth wrote:
To be an upgrade or special character, a model has to be a character.
Special characters are just that. Look at the end of the Tyranid codex regarding making your own Hive Fleet.
Swarmlord is a character.
Not independent, nor upgrade.
Mephiston is a character.
Not independent, nor upgrade.
Page 47 "Armies normally include two types of characters"
As specifically opposed to "Armies only include two types of characters".
There are not special rules for characters, only for upgrade characters and independent characters, this confuses people into assuming there are ONLY two types of characters.
kirsanth wrote:Page 49 is really the culprit, the more I read.
"these unique individuals, who stand out from normal characters because they have a personal name and not just a title, are called 'special characters' . . . Special characters can be either independent or upgrade characters"
This seems to imply that special characters have to be independent or upgrade characters--it only gives the allowance to be, however.
Individual, named models are special characters.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Read the rules for Unique on page 49. Look at the section it is in--which will tell you what type of models they apply to: "Special Characters".
19754
Post by: puma713
kirsanth wrote:Did you read the linked thread?
kirsanth wrote:
To be an upgrade or special character, a model has to be a character.
Special characters are just that. Look at the end of the Tyranid codex regarding making your own Hive Fleet.
Swarmlord is a character.
Not independent, nor upgrade.
Mephiston is a character.
Not independent, nor upgrade.
Page 47 "Armies normally include two types of characters"
As specifically opposed to "Armies only include two types of characters".
There are not special rules for characters, only for upgrade characters and independent characters, this confuses people into assuming there are ONLY two types of characters.
kirsanth wrote:Page 49 is really the culprit, the more I read.
"these unique individuals, who stand out from normal characters because they have a personal name and not just a title, are called 'special characters' . . . Special characters can be either independent or upgrade characters"
This seems to imply that special characters have to be independent or upgrade characters--it only gives the allowance to be, however.
Individual, named models are special characters.
Yep, I'm one of the last people who posted in it. And just because you said it, doesn't make it true or right. Quoting yourself in another argument does not a point prove. As I said in my edited post above, I used to be in the same camp as you. I'm not so sure anymore. The reason your argument falls apart is because it is a permissive ruleset. A permissive ruleset does not allow for:
kirsanth wrote:
There are not special rules for characters, only for upgrade characters and independent characters
There are no rules for my made up bolter, only for other kinds of bolters, of which we don't know the amount. That means my made-up bolter is okay right? Because the rules don't exactly cover them.
Wrong. In a permissive ruleset, the rules must cover what you can do and with what you can do it. It doesn't cover Characters outside of Independant and Upgrade, it merely alludes to the fact that some may exist.
You know what else "may" exist? Bolt pistols that can fire 72" at Str 10 and AP1. The rules don't cover them, but they're alluded to, so they exist. Trust me.
5873
Post by: kirsanth
LOL
I quoted myself to save time from retyping it, not because it was me posting it.
If you can tell me where the logic is flawed I would be happy to agree.
Mephiston is Unique.
The rules for Unique models specify they are characters and are listed in the Characters section of the book.
editing to add:
Your imaginary bolter does not have a section in the rule book.
Special Characters do--they are a superset of Unique.
18861
Post by: Sanctjud
Lets get back on the questionable topic/statements and not the personal attacks... it's been far too much recently IMO.
Mephy is not the Lord of Cheese.
He has a blatant weakness that the Edward Marines need to be aware of to make the most out of him.
It's much like Lash, if you know what is up and what to do against it, it won't be as wreck-face as it looked when it first came out. It's not saying he's a noob, but there is a balancing mechanism.
19754
Post by: puma713
kirsanth wrote:LOL
I quoted myself to save time from retyping it, not because it was me posting it.
If you can tell me where the logic is flawed I would be happy to agree.
Mephiston is Unique.
The rules for Unique models specify they are characters and are listed in the Characters section of the book.
It also says that there are "normally" two types of characters. Independant and Upgrade. Someone is neither. "Normally" doesn't serve as a qualifier that suddenly allows whatever your interpretation to be to be accepted in a permissive ruleset. If that was the case, people would be making up rules left and right. "Normally" is a qualifier to tell you that there are lots of characters, but the two that there are rules for are Independant and Upgrade.
There are also Special Characters, which can be either independant or upgrade. Again, the unit in question is neither.
That is where the logic falls apart. I'll have to look at the Unique title section when I get home, because I'm on my computer at work and don't have my rulebook in front me.
Edit: I guess it's not worth getting worked up over. All the tournaments around here use the INAT anyway, so it doesn't even matter to me.
5873
Post by: kirsanth
Let me ask it simply then: Can you field more than one of him? If not, can you point to the rules stating why? Note: Not worked up! I enjoy debates, please do not take me disagreeing as being upset or trying to goad--I try to do the same.
19754
Post by: puma713
kirsanth wrote:Let me ask it simply then:
Can you field more than one of him?
If not, can you point to the rules stating why?
Note:
Not worked up!
I enjoy debates, please do not take me disagreeing as being upset or trying to goad--I try to do the same.
No, I was saying for me getting worked up! I get worked up over rules debates sometimes, but it's only because I want to understand what I might face on the battlefield. I don't like surprises when it comes to 40K. I want to know my enemy and know his rules. That's why I say it doesn't really matter, because we use the INAT around here in tournaments and the INAT rules that he isn't a character.
However, I do remember why I agreed with you in the first place, and I'll change my argument a little bit.
I agree that he should be considered a character. Special Characters and Uniques are under characters, and it is only logical that is a character.
However, I don't agree that RaW says he is a character. I think the Unique heading is there to describe what Unique means (as in, you can't field more than one of this type of unit), not that Unique = Special Characters. However, Unique does reside under Special Characters, so it would lead me to believe he is a Special Character. Upon further inspection, it says Special Characters can be either Independant or Upgrade, of which he is neither. So, there is the quandary.
Do I think he is a character? Yes.
Do I think that RaW supports him being a character? No, with shades of grey.
Does the LFGS and its surrounding tournaments play him as a character? No.
That last one is all I need to know.
31111
Post by: Sushi636
Yeah to me he is a cheese since it seems like if you don't play an up to date army, he's going to destroy you and there's nothing you can do about it. I play Necrons and trust me when I say that I'm really good even though they are out dated and are in need of help, but against Blood Angels and Mephiston the odds are we're going to lose unless we have some luck. I'm starting to hate 40k because of this, I really hope they do something soon.
14291
Post by: kill dem stunties
Necrons? eat him with nightbringer or just have deceiver in front and decline combat lol.
Older codices shouldnt have a hard time getting rid of mcfailston ... if they have power weapons @ higher I (eldar/delder) or any good ap weaponry they can melt meph.
5528
Post by: The Grog
... you realize he'll force weapon the Nightbringer and kill it?
19754
Post by: puma713
kill dem stunties wrote:Necrons? eat him with nightbringer or just have deceiver in front and decline combat lol.
Older codices shouldnt have a hard time getting rid of mcfailston ... if they have power weapons @ higher I (eldar/delder) or any good ap weaponry they can melt meph.
Eldar and Dark Eldar have lower, if not the same Initiative as Mephiston. Definitely lower if there is a Sainguinary Priest anywhere. And, even with Doom, Toughness 6 can be hard to crack.
Banshees would be the best bet, with Doom. They'd go first, need 4's to hit and then need 6's to wound with rerolls. Not impossible, but what is more difficult is catching Mephiston for an assault with a unit slower than he is.
5580
Post by: Eidolon
Yes, and the fact that banshees are next to useless otherwise.
14291
Post by: kill dem stunties
Banshees were the eldar iw as speaking of, and with executioner exarch wounding on 4s its a bit better.
However for eldar i would just put 1-2 wounds on him long range them bring up the firedragons to turn him to ash.
For de i was speaking of the hq unit, hes i7 or 8 i thought, but again, why wouldnt you just shoot some of the 20+ dark lances in your army at him?
19754
Post by: puma713
kill dem stunties wrote:Banshees were the eldar iw as speaking of, and with executioner exarch wounding on 4s its a bit better.
However for eldar i would just put 1-2 wounds on him long range them bring up the firedragons to turn him to ash.
For de i was speaking of the hq unit, hes i7 or 8 i thought, but again, why wouldnt you just shoot some of the 20+ dark lances in your army at him?
Because he's not the only model on the field for the BA?
1406
Post by: Janthkin
۞ Jack ۞ wrote:what are you gonna do? Countercharge him? With what? Or let him finish the brood and go eat the MC anyway?
You throw The Swarmlord at him and force him to fail a LD test on 3D6, he then dies.
Throw death leaper into it and some other nasties and you drop his LD by 3 to start with.
2 things:
1) The Swarmlord's Bone Sabres don't trigger a LD test; they just inflict instant death.
2) The Deathleaper can't effect him; he's not a character.
12620
Post by: Che-Vito
Alpharius wrote:Close Combat really lost a lot of its impact and 'oomph' in 5th edition.
He's not the beast he once was...
I disagree. You lost the ability to consolidate into another assault, but you gained cover saves and everyone got a "run" move.
Good players didn't keep their units close enough to be consolidated into....5th edition was quite a bump for close combat.
5873
Post by: kirsanth
Janthkin wrote:
2) The Deathleaper can't effect him; he's not a character.
So you can field more than one of him?
1406
Post by: Janthkin
kirsanth wrote:Janthkin wrote:
2) The Deathleaper can't effect him; he's not a character.
So you can field more than one of him?
Logic flaw - while Special Characters are Unique, there is no requirement that all Unique units be Special Characters. Contrast with the wording for Special Characters, which can be either independent or upgrade characters, an explicit set of options. Could it be phrased better? Sure; it's fairly obvious that GW didn't consider non-character Unique options when writing the main rules. But a "break no rule" interpretation strongly favors a non-Character perspective.
5873
Post by: kirsanth
Look up Unique in the main rules.
Oddly enough you are actually forced to reference "Unique Characters".
1406
Post by: Janthkin
kirsanth wrote:Look up Unique in the main rules.
Oddly enough you are actually forced to reference "Unique Characters".
I'm aware. Doesn't change my stance, nor my argument. "Special Characters" must be either independent or upgrade; Mephiston, The Swarmlord, The Masque, etc. are not. So we're left with having to interpret statements like "Composition: 1 (Unique)" without an explicit rule. Fortunately, "Unique" is fairly easy to interpret in the GW context (as, for that matter, is the number "1").
There are reasons I never use Deathleaper; this is one of them.
5873
Post by: kirsanth
Janthkin wrote:
Logic flaw - while Special Characters can be Unique, there is a requirement that all Unique units be Characters. See the wording for Special Characters, which can be either independent or upgrade characters, a set of options applied to characters.
Could it be phrased better? Sure; it's fairly obvious that GW didn't consider non-character Unique options when writing the main rules. But a "break no rule" interpretation strongly favors a Character perspective.
fixed. In a snarky way, admittedly. The problem is saying that his rule requires "Special", "Independent", or "Upgrade" characters, when "Character" is the only requirement--"Unique Character" is a rule as well. The _only_ rule preventing putting multiple models of Mephiston on the table is the same rule that allows DL to target him. Editing to add that the FAQs (for example) refer to "Special Characters" when referencing unique models as well. Sorry, habitual kneejerk. Back to the thread at hand. Nothing to see here.
31807
Post by: Radi87
The blood angels faq classified Mephiston, Sangiunor and death company Tycho as single units of one model.....
5873
Post by: kirsanth
Radi87 wrote:The blood angels faq classified Mephiston, Sangiunor and death company Tycho as single units of one model.....
Sure, which changes nothing--the question in that FAQ was if they are ICs--they are not, and I am not saying they are.
1406
Post by: Janthkin
kirsanth wrote:Janthkin wrote:
Logic flaw - while Special Characters can be Unique, there is a requirement that all Unique units be Characters. See the wording for Special Characters, which can be either independent or upgrade characters, a set of options applied to characters.
Could it be phrased better? Sure; it's fairly obvious that GW didn't consider non-character Unique options when writing the main rules. But a "break no rule" interpretation strongly favors a Character perspective.
fixed. In a snarky way, admittedly.
"Can" doesn't help you here - that's "can" as in "You can get the car in either black or red," not "I can get a red car." The wording is unambiguously setting up an either/or choice - there are no additional options to choose from. But yes, we're wandering off topic. My Tyranids have faced Mephiston 3 times - the first time, he charged 15 poisoned 'stealers (with an assault squad along for company), lost the assault squad almost before they could swing, and eventually died to rending. The other two times, he ended up having to fight the Swarmlord, and died for it.
30658
Post by: Da_Mega_Grot
ive had good luck fielding mephiston with my raz spam list
at the start of the game and first 1 or 2 turns I hide him behind my vehicles and when im in charge range he pops out into combat, hes a glass cannon (albeit somewhat tough) you have to protect him till hes in range
32750
Post by: Jabbdo
kill dem stunties wrote:Necrons? eat him with nightbringer or just have deceiver in front and decline combat lol.
Older codices shouldnt have a hard time getting rid of mcfailston ... if they have power weapons @ higher I (eldar/delder) or any good ap weaponry they can melt meph.
I lol'd at the nightbringer and deceiver idea. Meph hits first, puts one wound on the nightbringer, and instakills him. Also the nightbringer cant escape from meph, so thats an easy kill for the BA player. With the deceiver its a bit better, as the necron player can escape from combate by moving away with the deceiver from combat, but if he stays to fight meph can easily eat him too. Mephiston basically rapes Necrons, as they have no way to reliably deal with him. When I play my friend's necrons with my BA, meph regularly destroys his monolith and 15-25 warriors during the game, shame that he's never killed the deceiver though because he runs away from combat. lol.
Best way with DA is to first turn charge with a lord with shadowfield and combat drugs and trophy rack. As meph isn't fearless, you just have to put one wound on him and win the combat (as you have a 2+ invul he shouldn't wound you, if he does youre dead though) then meph will have to take a LD on -1 from trophy rack, and hopefully run off the board.
12620
Post by: Che-Vito
Jabbdo wrote:kill dem stunties wrote:Necrons? eat him with nightbringer or just have deceiver in front and decline combat lol.
Older codices shouldnt have a hard time getting rid of mcfailston ... if they have power weapons @ higher I (eldar/delder) or any good ap weaponry they can melt meph.
I lol'd at the nightbringer and deceiver idea. Meph hits first, puts one wound on the nightbringer, and instakills him. Also the nightbringer cant escape from meph, so thats an easy kill for the BA player. With the deceiver its a bit better, as the necron player can escape from combate by moving away with the deceiver from combat, but if he stays to fight meph can easily eat him too. Mephiston basically rapes Necrons, as they have no way to reliably deal with him. When I play my friend's necrons with my BA, meph regularly destroys his monolith and 15-25 warriors during the game, shame that he's never killed the deceiver though because he runs away from combat. lol.
Best way with DA is to first turn charge with a lord with shadowfield and combat drugs and trophy rack. As meph isn't fearless, you just have to put one wound on him and win the combat (as you have a 2+ invul he shouldn't wound you, if he does youre dead though) then meph will have to take a LD on -1 from trophy rack, and hopefully run off the board.
Twenty Daemonettes v.s. Mephi = dead Mephi
Heck, even ten could probably do it.
21152
Post by: Ragnar Blackmane
Che-Vito wrote:Jabbdo wrote:kill dem stunties wrote:Necrons? eat him with nightbringer or just have deceiver in front and decline combat lol.
Older codices shouldnt have a hard time getting rid of mcfailston ... if they have power weapons @ higher I (eldar/delder) or any good ap weaponry they can melt meph.
I lol'd at the nightbringer and deceiver idea. Meph hits first, puts one wound on the nightbringer, and instakills him. Also the nightbringer cant escape from meph, so thats an easy kill for the BA player. With the deceiver its a bit better, as the necron player can escape from combate by moving away with the deceiver from combat, but if he stays to fight meph can easily eat him too. Mephiston basically rapes Necrons, as they have no way to reliably deal with him. When I play my friend's necrons with my BA, meph regularly destroys his monolith and 15-25 warriors during the game, shame that he's never killed the deceiver though because he runs away from combat. lol.
Best way with DA is to first turn charge with a lord with shadowfield and combat drugs and trophy rack. As meph isn't fearless, you just have to put one wound on him and win the combat (as you have a 2+ invul he shouldn't wound you, if he does youre dead though) then meph will have to take a LD on -1 from trophy rack, and hopefully run off the board.
Twenty Daemonettes v.s. Mephi = dead Mephi
Heck, even ten could probably do it.
Yeah, too bad that Daemonettes can't attack after deep-striking, Daemons lack the Psy-Defence to prevent Mephi from just jumping away from said squad with his jump pack power and fleet (scattering away from him makes things even worse) and Daemonettes in general lack the survivability against any kind of anti-infantry fire.
30356
Post by: Jaon
Well, necrons yes are screwed my meph, to almost a funny level, but necrons were never tourney level anyway. Dont anyone disagree or I will be forced to challenge you to a duel.
Instant death is the best way to kill meph. I believe eldar have some sort of blade that causes instant death on a 6 that banshees can carry. Wraithguard can splatter him but without a transport its inviable.
The most viable way for necrons to kill meph is using heavy destroyers, which isnt by any means a rediculous idea. If necrons were fearless, then there would be little reason to field meph against necrons.
4139
Post by: wuestenfux
Necrons are screwed anyway.
Mephiston's stats say eventually 'go against the biggest threat'.
But his protection (no inv. save and psychic counter via hood) is rather weak against hard hitting units.
He is best used by a mech force kept behind the armored wall
until its close enough.
Then unleash him, but pick his target with care to get the most out of him.
Don't bother if he dies. The enemy will be scared as long as he's alive.
31807
Post by: Radi87
wuestenfux wrote:Necrons are screwed anyway.
Mephiston's stats say eventually 'go against the biggest threat'.
But his protection (no inv. save and psychic counter via hood) is rather weak against hard hitting units.
He is best used by a mech force kept behind the armored wall
until its close enough.
Then unleash him, but pick his target with care to get the most out of him.
Don't bother if he dies. The enemy will be scared as long as he's alive.
That is exactly how I play him, conservatively, and ever present to countercharge anyone who gets near my tanks. Great points.
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