Hey guys sorry to beat a dead horse but some things have been said and its only fair that I/we/TWS get a reply.

So what really happened at GenCon???

Hello everyone my name is Don and I work at TheWarStore.com. I have several FACTS and OPINIONS regarding this situation I’d like to share…

Let’s start with the facts:

• TheWarStore.com did indeed bring Outrider Hobbies products, flyers and promotional banners. The intent was to promote Outrider Hobbies and gauge interest in there product line. So that astute attendee was correct… We did have the same amount on Sunday that we started with on Friday. =)

• None of the aforementioned product or samples was sold at GenCon and to the best of our knowledge none of the customers TheWarStore.com staff dealt with were mislead or confused by the Outrider Hobbies products (although I guess the second half of this statement would be opinion).

• We did sell quite a bit of Sabol product at GenCon.

• Battlefoam stated that they “send a staff member over to TheWarStore booth to find out how our products had gotten inside of Sabol bags”. No TWS employee working at the event remembers speaking to any Battlefoam employees to clarify any misunderstanding.


Now I will go to opinion:

• I heard a podcast featuring an interview with Bryan Wade and was impressed. It was after this that I decided (on my own) to reach out to Bryan and offer to promote Outrider Hobbies at GenCon.

• Considering we reached out to him with less then 2 weeks till GenCon it was a miracle that he was able to get the demo products and promotional material to us in time.

• KingHammer of DakkaDakka may wish to change his name to Shillhammer . Did you actually come into the booth? Are you sure you’re not telling a fib?

• TWS has many competitors. We have yet to send any companies a C&D… Or more
• Truthfully we never even thought we could. We thought commerce was a free market where business competed for your almighty dollar through price and service. Considering Neal lays claim to creating the Internet and Trans-dimensional beings I guess its time to send Al Gore and George Lucas a C&D

• In closing there was no malice or secret backroom meeting between TWS, SABOL, and Outrider Hobbies. Just an open marketplace in which companies compete to earn your (the customers) hard earned dollar.

Sorry to take up valuable time and space with this feth, lets get back to talk of gaming.

It is interesting that nothing was sold... too much hyperbole going on in the previous threads and not facts

Be interesting to hear a reply to this post.

Catyrpelius wrote:Be interesting to hear a reply to this post.

+1

ANYone flying off the handle in this thread, or making accusations, or generally stirring up trouble, will get suspensions. This is a touchy subject.

- Stick with facts when debating
- NO MUDSLINGING
- Don't try to "skirt the line" here; we're not having it.

This is getting really interesting.

Depending upon the success of the forthcoming movie "The Social Network," I want to lay claim right now to "The Foam Wars"... box office gold!

That being said, it's interesting to now hear the third side of the story. I'll stick by Battle Foam for product as I feel they do make the best bag out there. I have tons of Sabol bags, but am slowly replacing them and giving them to friends.

Business is business and I'm not sure we'll ever hear the full Wade vs. Romeo story, but I'm sure both sides have their faults and truths. While I'd love to see everybody get along, that isn't usually possible in business.

I just thought some facts would help shine some light on what we did. and why we did it.

So just to clarify:
The Warstore Gang wasn't actually selling the Outrider Foam stuff? Just displaying it so people could see it?

Seems to be the case - more testing the waters to see the kind of business it could do if they sold the OH Foam.

Excellent. I thought that was the case.
*twirls moustache*

I spent a good bit of time in the vendor hall at Gen con and got to see a good bit of new product out there. My intention (as far as purchases go) were to get limited ed warmachine stuff, buy a bag for it, and get some nerdy Tshirts for the baby and the wife.

I did my research and looked over every booth pretty well before deciding. I wanted to know if there was anything better for the price out there. I went with battlefoam because 1. they specialize in making bags 2. they were the most helpful and friendly to me 3. they had the best product.

Of course I did not see anything related to all this mess that someone has just blown way out of proportion. Add on top of that a massive amount of trolling and you got something out of nothing.

Whoever has the better product always comes out on top and is usually the target for slander.

Kanluwen wrote:So just to clarify:
The Warstore Gang wasn't actually selling the Outrider Foam stuff? Just displaying it so people could see it?

Squirrelsrage stated "TheWarStore.com did indeed bring Outrider Hobbies products..." so Outrider trays were likely the products sold. The issue at hand was that Battlefoam is unhappy with SABOL bags being sold by TheWarstore with Outrider Hobbies trays inside. TheWarstore is saying that this never happened. Correct me if I'm wrong.

Lorek wrote:ANYone flying off the handle in this thread, or making accusations, or generally stirring up trouble, will get suspensions. This is a touchy subject.

- Stick with facts when debating
- NO MUDSLINGING
- Don't try to "skirt the line" here; we're not having it.

Have to quit hitting the sterno. I was just going to start abbing random people but you beat me to it.

Well...what he said!

Catyrpelius wrote:Be interesting to hear a reply to this post.

Or not...

Absolutionis wrote:

Kanluwen wrote:So just to clarify:
The Warstore Gang wasn't actually selling the Outrider Foam stuff? Just displaying it so people could see it?

Squirrelsrage stated "TheWarStore.com did indeed bring Outrider Hobbies products..." so Outrider trays were likely the products sold. The issue at hand was that Battlefoam is unhappy with SABOL bags being sold by TheWarstore with Outrider Hobbies trays inside. TheWarstore is saying that this never happened. Correct me if I'm wrong.

Who cares?

TWS brought OH promotional material to GenCon; Two cases and maybe 15 pieces of pre-cut foam and four-hundred flyers. We did not have enough flyer to make it to Sunday though.

Again the intent was note to sell but to promote OH and his foam. Link to Bryan’s site and a blurb he wrote before GenCon
http://outriderhobbies.blogspot.com/2010/08/lets-get-ready-for-gen-connnnnn.html


So I guess the answer is we did not sell any OH pre-cut foam at GenCon.

Absolutionis wrote:Squirrelsrage stated "TheWarStore.com did indeed bring Outrider Hobbies products..." so Outrider trays were likely the products sold. The issue at hand was that Battlefoam is unhappy with SABOL bags being sold by TheWarstore with Outrider Hobbies trays inside. TheWarstore is saying that this never happened. Correct me if I'm wrong.

Well, it's true that's what squirrelsrage said.

He also followed it by saying "...The intent was to promote Outrider Hobbies and gauge interest in there product line. So that astute attendee was correct… We did have the same amount on Sunday that we started with on Friday."

No where in this statement did he say that they were selling the trays.

Frazzled wrote:

Absolutionis wrote:

Kanluwen wrote:So just to clarify:
The Warstore Gang wasn't actually selling the Outrider Foam stuff? Just displaying it so people could see it?

Squirrelsrage stated "TheWarStore.com did indeed bring Outrider Hobbies products..." so Outrider trays were likely the products sold. The issue at hand was that Battlefoam is unhappy with SABOL bags being sold by TheWarstore with Outrider Hobbies trays inside. TheWarstore is saying that this never happened. Correct me if I'm wrong.

Who cares?

Apparently the Foam Warriors!

Jin wrote:

Absolutionis wrote:Squirrelsrage stated "TheWarStore.com did indeed bring Outrider Hobbies products..." so Outrider trays were likely the products sold. The issue at hand was that Battlefoam is unhappy with SABOL bags being sold by TheWarstore with Outrider Hobbies trays inside. TheWarstore is saying that this never happened. Correct me if I'm wrong.

Well, it's true that's what squirrelsrage said.

He also followed it by saying "...The intent was to promote Outrider Hobbies and gauge interest in there product line. So that astute attendee was correct… We did have the same amount on Sunday that we started with on Friday."

No where in this statement did he say that they were selling the trays.

Squirrel is pretty clearly stating that they brought "display/promotional samples" not "sales product".

Thus the same number of display samples existed at the end as when they arrived.

Seems pretty cut and dry.

I am glad someone is keeping this conversation going. It was quite disappointing that Romeo started a thread to basically rant, stating that he was not going to reply. So where is he to update us on his side now?

Why are all these e-tailers jumping into this? Does this even need a response from the warstore?

Given that a lot of the speculation seemed to come from what people saw at the Warstore booth at GenCon, it seems that clarification needed to be made.

Well, maybe not needed, but it doesn't hurt.

why can't the two sides just settle this like men? 2500pts, dawn of war, and of course annihilation. nothing less than kill points would do.

I think the only solution here is for Battlefoam to send me a pack max with a reaver titan inside

edit: submitted to soon.. I meant to add "for free" at the end

I am still having trouble seeing where there is a problem here.

Someone with an inflamed opinion about a generally benign subject has gotten the townsfolk into an uproar.

Mmmm Foam drama but thanks for the clarifications. I love thewarstore.com

Clay Williams wrote:I am still having trouble seeing where there is a problem here.

Someone with an inflamed opinion about a generally benign subject has gotten the townsfolk into an uproar.

Romeo hasn't posted here yet.

Clay Williams wrote:Of course I did not see anything related to all this mess that someone has just blown way out of proportion. Add on top of that a massive amount of trolling and you got something out of nothing.

And we have our first winner of the thread!

See you in three days.

Jin wrote:Given that a lot of the speculation seemed to come from what people saw at the Warstore booth at GenCon, it seems that clarification needed to be made.

Well, maybe not needed, but it doesn't hurt.

The "clarification" came with it's own brand of attitude and unprofessionalism, which is what usually happens in these type of instances. The OP's attempt to explain theWarStore's side of things comes off as petty and contrived due to the OP's lack of professionalism in his rendition of the story. (Calling Kinghammer a "shill" for instance, just isn't good PR anyway you slice it, whether it is true or not.)

Clay Williams wrote:I am still having trouble seeing where there is a problem here.

Someone with an inflamed opinion about a generally benign subject has gotten the townsfolk into an uproar.

I couldn't agree more.

I'm more interested as to why GenCon didn't institute a Foam Wars event.

There's money to be made there, I think.

whitedragon wrote:The "clarification" came with it's own brand of attitude and unprofessionalism, which is what usually happens in these type of instances. The OP's attempt to explain theWarStore's side of things comes off as petty and contrived due to the OP's lack of professionalism in his rendition of the story. (Calling Kinghammer a "shill" for instance, just isn't good PR anyway you slice it, whether it is true or not.)

I don't necessarily disagree with this comment, just saying that a lot of people have been calling out other people here and there in this whole thing and everyone seems to at least want to air out their side of the story. To be fair, all the parties involved have kind of had a bit of an attitude and unprofessionalism invovled in their posts. (Not that that's a good thing).

Again, not really disagreeing with you, just stating things as I'm seeing them (I really don't have vested interest in either BF or OH. I'm just a sucker for Nerd Internet Drama).

Jin wrote:Given that a lot of the speculation seemed to come from what people saw at the Warstore booth at GenCon

It seems pretty clear that certain individuals:

A. jumped to conclusions and "saw" what they wanted/had a vested interest in seeing, or

B. knew the truth about the non-sales but thought it would be fun to imply otherwise...

C. Genuinely thought TWS was selling said items.

Regardless of above I think the Warstore's explanation of events at their booth is clear and sufficient.

I don't see that there is much else to discuss.

Time to lock this puppy up.

Clay Williams wrote:I am still having trouble seeing where there is a problem here.

Someone with an inflamed opinion about a generally benign subject has gotten the townsfolk into an uproar.

the problem is that people see romeo's tactic differently then you. while he's billing himself as the nice guy just looking out for sabol designs and going after those infringing of a patent he doesn't have yet, some of us see him as using heavy handed legal tactics to scare off possible business relations between his competitors. again we have reports from him that witnesses are confusing his products with outrider stuff and claiming that they bought it from the warstore; the last time he claimed this the judge determined that the witness was manufactured and the claim was false. the warstore is stating otherwise regarding the sales and the recipient of his letter (sabol) certainly didn't think the legal document they recieved was benign. i wouldn't even remember outrider hobby's name (let alone be familiar with their products) if it wasn't for battlefoam's constant legal actions. battlefoam is doing more to damage their own reputation among web-enabled gamers than any other company ever could.

I'm pretty sure that Neal would be annoyed if one of his employees making his company look bad, so you could probably forward the thread to him and let him know about it.

I'm a little confused what Battlefoam is claiming here, based upon how this shook out.

My understanding is:

1.) A customer claimed to have Battefoam brand foam in SABOL brand bags. This foam was actually Outrider Hobby brand foam.

2.) The warstore was advertising Outrider Hobby brand foam, along with its compatability with SABOL brand bags, at Gencon.

3.) SABOL was issued a letter notifying it that Outrider Hobby brand foam may have some patent issues associated with it in the future.

Now, correct me if I'm wrong, but if SABOL wasn't trying to sell Outrider Hobby brand foam (thewarstore was), how are they liable for damages?

Kanluwen wrote:I'm pretty sure that Neal would be annoyed if one of his employees making his company look bad, so you could probably forward the thread to him and let him know about it.

isn't the OP neal? he seems to be reporting on the warstore's behalf.

edit: nevermind.. he says his name is don.

He said he's an employee of Neal's, not Neal himself.

CT GAMER wrote:

Jin wrote:

Absolutionis wrote:Squirrelsrage stated "TheWarStore.com did indeed bring Outrider Hobbies products..." so Outrider trays were likely the products sold. The issue at hand was that Battlefoam is unhappy with SABOL bags being sold by TheWarstore with Outrider Hobbies trays inside. TheWarstore is saying that this never happened. Correct me if I'm wrong.

Well, it's true that's what squirrelsrage said.

He also followed it by saying "...The intent was to promote Outrider Hobbies and gauge interest in there product line. So that astute attendee was correct… We did have the same amount on Sunday that we started with on Friday."

No where in this statement did he say that they were selling the trays.

Unless I can't comprehend clearly written speech Squirrel is pretty clearly stating that they brought "display/promotional samples" not "sales product".

Thus the same number of display samples existed at the end as when they arrived.

WTF is so difficult to understand here?

Thats the first official warning gone out. I'll scroll down to see if anyone else needs to get zapped. If nothing else, this thread will help me work out some anger issues.

To everyone else, lets remember Rule #1: be polite. Thats especially helpful when responding to a Mod, even glue sniffing Jin.
You've already been warned by two moderators.

warboss wrote:
the problem is that people see romeo's tactic differently then you. while he's billing himself as the nice guy just looking out for sabol designs and going after those infringing of a patent he doesn't have yet, some of us see him as using heavy handed legal tactics to scare off possible business relations between his competitors. again we have reports from him that witnesses are confusing his products with outrider stuff and claiming that they bought it from the warstore; the last time he claimed this the judge determined that the witness was manufactured and the claim was false. the warstore is stating otherwise regarding the sales and the recipient of his letter (sabol) certainly didn't think the legal document they recieved was benign. i wouldn't even remember outrider hobby's name (let alone be familiar with their products) if it wasn't for battlefoam's constant legal actions. battlefoam is doing more to damage their own reputation among web-enabled gamers than any other company ever could.

Aside from the politics surround this, I'm still really confused as to why this is a patent issue:

If Battlefoam has a patent complaint against Outrider, that's fine and well.

If Battlefoam feels they're worried that consumers are referring to non-Battlefoam brand foam as "Battlefoam", wouldn't that be under the perview of Trademark?

@Fraz: *ahem*. Glue Sniffing is soooo last year.

Also, given the context of his post, I acttually think he was responding to the person I was responding to (ie, agreeing with me). My reading comprehension may be off, though, given all the paint huffing.

Edit: Dang it another mod got to zap someone first.

warboss wrote:

Clay Williams wrote:I am still having trouble seeing where there is a problem here.

Someone with an inflamed opinion about a generally benign subject has gotten the townsfolk into an uproar.

the problem is that people see romeo's tactic differently then you. while he's billing himself as the nice guy just looking out for sabol designs and going after those infringing of a patent he doesn't have yet, some of us see him as using heavy handed legal tactics to scare off possible business relations between his competitors. again we have reports from him that witnesses are confusing his products with outrider stuff and claiming that they bought it from the warstore; the last time he claimed this the judge determined that the witness was manufactured and the claim was false. the warstore is stating otherwise regarding the sales and the recipient of his letter (sabol) certainly didn't think the legal document they recieved was benign. i wouldn't even remember outrider hobby's name (let alone be familiar with their products) if it wasn't for battlefoam's constant legal actions. battlefoam is doing more to damage their own reputation among web-enabled gamers than any other company ever could.

QFT

Jin wrote:@Fraz: *ahem*. Glue Sniffing is soooo last year.

Also, given the context of his post, I acttually think he was responding to the person I was responding to (ie, agreeing with me). My reading comprehension may be off, though, given all the paint huffing.

Indeed I was, but Fraz is usually snippy with me because I don't agree with his politics in off-topic...

I edited my post after he PM'd me, but I guess I wasn't fast enough. patience young Jedi and all that...

Sweet. Good to know my reading comprehension isn't completely impaired yet.

CT GAMER wrote:

Jin wrote:@Fraz: *ahem*. Glue Sniffing is soooo last year.

Also, given the context of his post, I acttually think he was responding to the person I was responding to (ie, agreeing with me). My reading comprehension may be off, though, given all the paint huffing.

Indeed I was, but Fraz is usually snippy with me because I don't agree with his politics in off-topic...

I edited my post after he PM'd me, but I guess I wasn't fast enough. patience young yedi and all that...

One has to be fast. I have a legion of weiner dogs at my command. 20,000 little paws clicking away. 20,000 eyes watching, always watching. 20,000 bellies demanding to be rubbed. What have I done? .

Frazzled wrote:

CT GAMER wrote:

Jin wrote:@Fraz: *ahem*. Glue Sniffing is soooo last year.

Also, given the context of his post, I acttually think he was responding to the person I was responding to (ie, agreeing with me). My reading comprehension may be off, though, given all the paint huffing.

Indeed I was, but Fraz is usually snippy with me because I don't agree with his politics in off-topic...

I edited my post after he PM'd me, but I guess I wasn't fast enough. patience young yedi and all that...

One has to be fast. I have a legion of weiner dogs at my command. 20,000 little paws clicking away. 20,000 eyes watching, always watching. 20,000 bellies demanding to be rubbed. What have I done? .

Fraz what have you done ?
All your dogs have 1 eye some have no legs

OR you math is out


20,000 bellies = 40,000 eyes = 80,000 legs

2 paws per weiner dog

2 eyes

ok 2x as many bellies. they are just 2x as demanding.

CT Gamer wrote:patience young yedi and all that...

-1 internet points for "yedi"

Even more off-topic: My first use of the "no no" orkmoticon!

Edit: Frazz must have those little dogs that pull themselves around in a wagon by their front paws...


Then the math works out assuming 2x bellies, that is...

Frazzled wrote:2 paws per weiner dog

2 eyes

ok 2x as many bellies. they are just 2x as demanding.

Somehow I think I'm not afraid of a legion of crippled dachshunds.

Laughing Man wrote:Somehow I think I'm not afraid of a legion of crippled dachshunds.

If anything, you should be more afraid.

I think the crippled weiner dog pic is going to be my new response for whenever I disagree with Frazz

I dont think Romeo, would appreciate it if Romeo made his company look bad.


In all seriousness, i dont see how this makes warstore look bad.

Warstore has no track record of being nasty, the latter, has many snipes and PR issues.

You know this is the third thread, and has grown pointless beyond belief. We all heard both sides and in the end WHO CARES!!! Buy whatever company you want to buy and be done with it.

Empchild wrote:You know this is the third thread, and has grown pointless beyond belief. We all heard both sides and in the end WHO CARES!!! Buy whatever company you want to buy and be done with it.

Third ?
Have I missed one ?

IBL

niceguyteddy wrote:IBL

? what does that mean

In before lock.

They should have a foam brawl. Each can make some foam bats and... oh, wait...

I'm joking of course.

I'm willing to bet that this whole situation is just a series of over reactions.

Viva La BattleFoam!

Is Dakka Dakka funded by battlefoam, thewarstore, sabol, or outrider? Seems like a tricky issue to moderate if so.

ancientsociety wrote:

warboss wrote:

Clay Williams wrote:I am still having trouble seeing where there is a problem here.

Someone with an inflamed opinion about a generally benign subject has gotten the townsfolk into an uproar.

the problem is that people see romeo's tactic differently then you. while he's billing himself as the nice guy just looking out for sabol designs and going after those infringing of a patent he doesn't have yet, some of us see him as using heavy handed legal tactics to scare off possible business relations between his competitors. again we have reports from him that witnesses are confusing his products with outrider stuff and claiming that they bought it from the warstore; the last time he claimed this the judge determined that the witness was manufactured and the claim was false. the warstore is stating otherwise regarding the sales and the recipient of his letter (sabol) certainly didn't think the legal document they recieved was benign. i wouldn't even remember outrider hobby's name (let alone be familiar with their products) if it wasn't for battlefoam's constant legal actions. battlefoam is doing more to damage their own reputation among web-enabled gamers than any other company ever could.

QFT

Yea that post basically sums up the Foam Wars drama for me as well.

Can someone explain in plain words, what the impending patent will be about?
Rumours said that cutting foam with lasers will be patent protected, other say that the word foam will be patent protected, neither makes sense to me, esp. considering the last lawsuit and the judge's verdict.

BTW Romeo posted in this locked thread: http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/314616.page

McNs wrote:I'm a little confused what Battlefoam is claiming here, based upon how this shook out.

My understanding is:

1.) A customer claimed to have Battefoam brand foam in SABOL brand bags. This foam was actually Outrider Hobby brand foam.

2.) The warstore was advertising Outrider Hobby brand foam, along with its compatability with SABOL brand bags, at Gencon.

3.) SABOL was issued a letter notifying it that Outrider Hobby brand foam may have some patent issues associated with it in the future.

Now, correct me if I'm wrong, but if SABOL wasn't trying to sell Outrider Hobby brand foam (thewarstore was), how are they liable for damages?

Sabol isn't liable for damages because they haven't done thing one to violate BF's potential patent. BF misconstrued the warstore product. It would appear that instead of recognizing it was the warstore's effort for what it was, they thought Sabol was in cahoots with satan, er, outrider hobbies, and reacted accordingly. At this point they should probably follow up and make nice with Sabol for their error in judgement.

Clay Williams wrote:I am still having trouble seeing where there is a problem here.

Someone with an inflamed opinion about a generally benign subject has gotten the townsfolk into an uproar.

That is what happened. The inflamed opinion came from a person with a history of flying off the handle when they don't get their way. Whether in baseball bat land or toy soldiers.

Lorek wrote:ANYone flying off the handle in this thread, or making accusations, or generally stirring up trouble, will get suspensions. This is a touchy subject.

- Stick with facts when debating
- NO MUDSLINGING
- Don't try to "skirt the line" here; we're not having it.

Kanluwen wrote:

Frazzled wrote:

Absolutionis wrote:

Kanluwen wrote:So just to clarify:
The Warstore Gang wasn't actually selling the Outrider Foam stuff? Just displaying it so people could see it?

Squirrelsrage stated "TheWarStore.com did indeed bring Outrider Hobbies products..." so Outrider trays were likely the products sold. The issue at hand was that Battlefoam is unhappy with SABOL bags being sold by TheWarstore with Outrider Hobbies trays inside. TheWarstore is saying that this never happened. Correct me if I'm wrong.

Who cares?

Apparently the Foam Warriors!

Nice to see again , the rules doesnt apply to some

Glass houses Luna.

I happen to have a few bricks handy..

Anyway, I am very much intrigued by this and will observe the outcome.

And still no word from Romeo. I would be inclined to take his silence as assent that he know that he overreacted and is now sitting in a corner with his hands over his ears going "Nanananaaa I can't hear you!!!" Of course, I'm a completely uninterested observer of the foam wars, since I can fit 4,000 pts of mech Orks in a conglomeration of trays and a big tub (With wheels, nonetheless!!!) all that I bought at Walmart for about $50.

Oh, and Frazz, decalf, buddy, decalf. And some Ginseng. Seriously...

Frazzled wrote:Glass houses Luna.

Yes just keep encouraging his behavior by shielding him

Lets be real fraz , we all know dakka isnt made out of just us 3.
Even if the glass house is true and i turn out to be just as bad as he is.

The bottom line still doesnt change. He was still a rude obnoxious yahoo to others.

We can say 'who cares' and that this is 'pointless' but inadvertently its not.

If people are pushing patents and also legal and political battles it will affect us consumers one way or another.

Less competition = less need for innovation = higher prices = less products.

The wargaming industry both business and consumers will stall in terms of foam goes. hah

CSH_Vendetta wrote:Less competition = less need for innovation = higher prices = less products.

Sounds like the business model for quite a few companies out there (Hasbro, ahem).

But seriously, there shouldn't be any more problems so long as people are creative and can work around the limitations of what has been set before them.

Can anyone else name any other ways in which a company can sell products not patented by others.

warpcrafter wrote:And still no word from Romeo. I would be inclined to take his silence as assent that he know that he overreacted and is now sitting in a corner with his hands over his ears going "Nanananaaa I can't hear you!!!" Of course, I'm a completely uninterested observer of the foam wars, since I can fit 4,000 pts of mech Orks in a conglomeration of trays and a big tub (With wheels, nonetheless!!!) all that I bought at Walmart for about $50.

Oh, and Frazz, decalf, buddy, decalf. And some Ginseng. Seriously...

Are you serious? I really can't respond to this without being mean so all I will say is... troll.

Unfortunate situation.

I was considering using Battlefoam as a case/storage solution. However, I also consider The Warstore to be one of the finest operations and nicest groups of people in this hobby. It doesn't help that Battlefoam employees on this site have generally acted in a "not very nice" manner.

Now I need a different case/storage solution.

The historians can't seem to settle whether to call this one "The Third Foam War" (or the fourth), or whether "The First Internet Foam War" fits it better. We just call it "in-fo-rama."

avantgarde wrote:The historians can't seem to settle whether to call this one "The Third Foam War" (or the fourth), or whether "The First Internet Foam War" fits it better. We just call it "in-fo-rama."

I think since this is a controversy caused by media reports (aka internet posters), I would dub it "Foam-gate."

But in reality, most of the problem is imagined via false reports, so maybe we should call it "Bad Internet Drama-gate."

Well, someone is lying. The Warstore states

Battlefoam stated that they “send a staff member over to TheWarStore booth to find out how our products had gotten inside of Sabol bags”. No TWS employee working at the event remembers speaking to any Battlefoam employees to clarify any misunderstanding.

Romeo states;

It got to the point that we had to send a staff member over to the WarStore booth to find out how our products had gotten inside of Sabol bags.

Honestly, given that Romeo, at the very least, misrepresented himself in his first advertisement on Dakka;

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/226014.page

...and a judge essentially stated he manufactured parts of his suit;

http://www.livingdice.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/06/Battle_foam_outrider_dismissal.pdf

....and given the stellar reputation The Warstore has with the community....I know who I'll believe. In fact, the only reason I even responded to one of the 'The War of the Foams' threads was due to Battlefoam bringing The Warstore into this ridiculous mess. Kudos for the moderators keeping this open so The Warstore could respond.

Y'know, I was about to forgive Romeo for past transgressions (especially his rudeness), and pick up a PACK 1520XL, with a full foam loadout, etc. but then this hit... and I'm glad it did when it did.

BF will not be receiving my money in the forseeable future. Sabol, and when available, Outrider Hobbies, will be seeing a lot of it. And I especially hope the rest of the foam cutting industry catches whiff of the patent attempt, that will only lead to hilarity to the umpteenth power.

Finds this F@$%ing lame that this is the most exciting hobby news we have. Oh and I challenge you to find most FLGS owners to see how much they love the War Store........

AgeOfEgos wrote:Well, someone is lying. The Warstore states

Battlefoam stated that they “send a staff member over to TheWarStore booth to find out how our products had gotten inside of Sabol bags”. No TWS employee working at the event remembers speaking to any Battlefoam employees to clarify any misunderstanding.

Romeo states;

It got to the point that we had to send a staff member over to the WarStore booth to find out how our products had gotten inside of Sabol bags.

Emboldened text is my edit.

While admittedly playing the semantics card, I'd just like to point out that perhaps the BF employee sent over did a purely visual inspection of the TWS booth, and in fact, never spoke to any one at the booth. Poor investigative procedure, for sure.

I'm not advocating for Romeo here, mind you. Just pointing out an observation.

AgeOfEgos wrote:Well, someone is lying. The Warstore states

Battlefoam stated that they “send a staff member over to TheWarStore booth to find out how our products had gotten inside of Sabol bags”. No TWS employee working at the event remembers speaking to any Battlefoam employees to clarify any misunderstanding.

Romeo states;

It got to the point that we had to send a staff member over to the WarStore booth to find out how our products had gotten inside of Sabol bags.

Please don't inflame the situation. Neither statement need be incorrect - all it would take would be a BF staff member going over, looking, and seeing OH foam (rather than BF foam) in Sabol bags. No conversation needed.

chaos0xomega wrote:Y'know, I was about to forgive Romeo for past transgressions (especially his rudeness), and pick up a PACK 1520XL, with a full foam loadout, etc. but then this hit... and I'm glad it did when it did.

BF will not be receiving my money in the forseeable future. Sabol, and when available, Outrider Hobbies, will be seeing a lot of it. And I especially hope the rest of the foam cutting industry catches whiff of the patent attempt, that will only lead to hilarity to the umpteenth power.

I'm intrigued by this stance. Owning products from both companies, I can say the BF products are superior in every way to the sabol products except for price. Why would you deliberately choose to deny yourself a BF product that you wanted? You're not really punishing Romeo for his overreaction. You're punishing yourself.

Do you care about the personality of the CEOs of all the other companies whose products you buy (clothes, electronics, shoes, food, etc)?

Frazzled wrote:One has to be fast. I have a legion of weiner dogs at my command. 20,000 little paws clicking away. 20,000 eyes watching, always watching. 20,000 bellies demanding to be rubbed.

I'm seeing Fraz as Muntz from _Up!_, and wondering if he lives in an airship...


"SQUIRREL!!!"

Arschbombe wrote:Do you care about the personality of the CEOs of all the other companies whose products you buy (clothes, electronics, shoes, food, etc)?

As mentioned earlier in the thread, it matters to us consumers because if one company employs "disagreeable" tactics to suppress competition, the consumer loses.

Plus, the consumer has a right to refuse to buy product on whatever ridiculous grounds they wish. They could disagree with Battlefoam's employees' demeanor or the color of the hair of the co-owners of SABOL.

Absolutionis wrote:

Arschbombe wrote:Do you care about the personality of the CEOs of all the other companies whose products you buy (clothes, electronics, shoes, food, etc)?

As mentioned earlier in the thread, it matters to us consumers because if one company employs "disagreeable" tactics to suppress competition, the consumer loses.

Plus, the consumer has a right to refuse to buy product on whatever ridiculous grounds they wish. They could disagree with Battlefoam's employees' demeanor or the color of the hair of the co-owners of SABOL.

I hope you didn't post that from a computer running an Apple OR Microsoft-based operating system, or transmit it over an internet connection supplied by a cable or telephone company....

I've had a very good customer-relations experience w/Battlefoam so far, and they make a solid product. That's enough for me. If Sabol isn't laser-cutting foam, then they won't be implicated by any patent that Battlefoam receives.

So why are we still talking about this, after 3 separate threads?

The lying is what bothers me . I can't see any scenario where 10 people would confuse the Outrider foam being displayed (not sold) by The Warstore with Battlefoam, especially if there were signs / flyers, and the foam was never in any Sabol bags.

This is what Romeo stated:

Sgt Diablo wrote:While attending GenCon we had been approached by a number of customers stating that The WarStore was selling Battle Foam trays inside of their Sabol Army Transports. This happened during the entire weekend from over 10 different customers.

And that to me looks like an outright lie... . Especially given that the witness in the court case also seems to have been fabricated. The ends don't justify the means, and although BattleFoam might have rights to the process, they should just wait for their patent and resolve things that way... this looks too underhanded to me :-/

RiTides wrote:The lying is what bothers me . I can't see any scenario where 10 people would confuse the Outrider foam being displayed (not sold) by The Warstore with Battlefoam, especially if there were signs / flyers, and the foam was never in any Sabol bags.

This is what Romeo stated:

Sgt Diablo wrote:While attending GenCon we had been approached by a number of customers stating that The WarStore was selling Battle Foam trays inside of their Sabol Army Transports. This happened during the entire weekend from over 10 different customers.

And that to me looks like an outright lie... . Especially given that the witness in the court case also seems to have been fabricated. The ends don't justify the means, and although BattleFoam might have rights to the process, they should just wait for their patent and resolve things that way... this looks too underhanded to me :-/

I wasn't at GenCon, so I haven't a clue as to the specifics. I suspect the "large ads" for OH were smaller than The Warstore's own banners, though, and I can readily believe that a casual passer-by could have missed the flyers/etc., while still seeing the essential - laser-cut foam in Sabol bags.

But, in a more general sense, customer confusion is hardly unusual, but is still a non-trivial concern.

On the patent side: There are significant financial reasons why you might make a competitor aware of your pending patent as early as possible. If you're interested, I'm willing to educate.

I ran over my Battlefoam X-board last weekend, after the WHFB 'Ard Boyz. With my car. I only managed to destroy one of the long-edge supports; when I pinged Battlefoam, asking if they sold replacement parts, they told me just to send my address, and they'll send a replacement.

Battlefoam has been a major sponsor of every large tournament I've attended this year, even the "not so grand" tournaments which only pulled 30-40 people.

And, on top of that, the products are solid. *shrug* I'm content to do business with a company that supports their customers, supports the hobby, and makes good stuff.

chaos0xomega wrote:Y'know, I was about to forgive Romeo for past transgressions (especially his rudeness), and pick up a PACK 1520XL, with a full foam loadout, etc. but then this hit... and I'm glad it did when it did.

BF will not be receiving my money in the forseeable future. Sabol, and when available, Outrider Hobbies, will be seeing a lot of it. And I especially hope the rest of the foam cutting industry catches whiff of the patent attempt, that will only lead to hilarity to the umpteenth power.

Me too. At this point I'll stick with my giant GW case and buy some foam, laser cut or otherwise, to carry my armies.

I have been morbidly fascinated by the FoamWars, though. Its like I am compelled to see how bad it can possibly get!

More importantly, it is valuable to understand the companies I may do business with. I am a capricious customer who prefers, for example, to buy shade grown coffee, use recycled materials, etc. Even if it costs more, when possible, I try to buy products from companies that do the "right thing". So yes, purchase decision is more than just the product for the price...

Janthkin wrote:

RiTides wrote:The lying is what bothers me . I can't see any scenario where 10 people would confuse the Outrider foam being displayed (not sold) by The Warstore with Battlefoam, especially if there were signs / flyers, and the foam was never in any Sabol bags.

This is what Romeo stated:

Sgt Diablo wrote:While attending GenCon we had been approached by a number of customers stating that The WarStore was selling Battle Foam trays inside of their Sabol Army Transports. This happened during the entire weekend from over 10 different customers.

And that to me looks like an outright lie... . Especially given that the witness in the court case also seems to have been fabricated. The ends don't justify the means, and although BattleFoam might have rights to the process, they should just wait for their patent and resolve things that way... this looks too underhanded to me :-/

I wasn't at GenCon, so I haven't a clue as to the specifics. I suspect the "large ads" for OH were smaller than The Warstore's own banners, though, and I can readily believe that a casual passer-by could have missed the flyers/etc., while still seeing the essential - laser-cut foam in Sabol bags.

But, in a more general sense, customer confusion is hardly unusual, but is still a non-trivial concern.

On the patent side: There are significant financial reasons why you might make a competitor aware of your pending patent as early as possible. If you're interested, I'm willing to educate.

Who says the foam was laser cut Do OH cut foam with a laser?

Janthkin wrote:

Absolutionis wrote:As mentioned earlier in the thread, it matters to us consumers because if one company employs "disagreeable" tactics to suppress competition, the consumer loses.

Plus, the consumer has a right to refuse to buy product on whatever ridiculous grounds they wish. They could disagree with Battlefoam's employees' demeanor or the color of the hair of the co-owners of SABOL.

I hope you didn't post that from a computer running an Apple OR Microsoft-based operating system, or transmit it over an internet connection supplied by a cable or telephone company....

We, the consumers don't have any obligation to explain our reasoning to the likes of you, thank you very much. I boycott who I want for whatever reason I choose. You might think it's disingenious or inconsistent, and I couldn't give a tinker's cuss what you think.

oni wrote:They should have a foam brawl. Each can make some foam bats and... oh, wait...

screw foam swords.... both companies have LASERS!!! *insert light saber swoosh and blaster pew pew noises here*

Despite ample warnings from Mods, the way this thread is going, I predict a lock coming sooner rather than later...

About the only useful inputs that I'd like to see at this point would come from:
- Neal (speaking officially on behalf of the War Store)
- Romeo (speaking officially and *honestly*)
- actual GenCon attendees who saw the War Store display

Why hasn't this been locked before now? This is the 2nd thread on the same topic, and we are nowhere closer to the truth. Let's just let it die peacefully.

Cane wrote:Is Dakka Dakka funded by battlefoam, thewarstore, sabol, or outrider? Seems like a tricky issue to moderate if so.

Battlefoam advertises here, and Romeo has sent yakface a 720 gratis that he did a review of about a month and a half ago. Take that for what you will

Not sure about the Warstore or Outrider, but I'd bet dollars to donuts that OH doesn't.

It's time to break out the Nerf

Those weapons, especially the sword, has a deceptively hard core and actually hurts if you're not paying attention.

EDIT: I never noticed, but the sword has the "power sword" wire down the flat of the blade. I think this is unlawful infringement of intellectual property. Watch out Nerf.

Lorek wrote:ANYone flying off the handle in this thread, or making accusations, or generally stirring up trouble, will get suspensions. This is a touchy subject.

- Stick with facts when debating
- NO MUDSLINGING
- Don't try to "skirt the line" here; we're not having it.

Why don't GW hate threads get this treatment. Not that I care particularly, as its funny reading all the righteous indignation and nerd rage when I'm bored at work. Just curious why this subject requires such heavy moderation? Whereas if you replaced "TheWarstore.com" or "Sabol" with GW or something, mod's would allow all sorts of off the wall suppositions and "mudslinging". For example, see any C+D thread about GW from a few months ago, or the Warhammer Alliance thread thats not even related to Wargaming, aside from it being a GW legal issue.

The kind of moderation espoused in this thread would probably make this whole site better, in my opinion.

NELS1031 wrote:The kind of moderation espoused in this thread would probably make this whole site better, in my opinion.

That sounds like a Nuts and Bolts topic. I would probably head over to that forum and suggest improving moderation if you think there is an issue here.

EDIT: Look at page two of the thread and about half that page is dedicated to Moderators of some stripe/forum doing their "THANG." Lol.

Bunker wrote:

Cane wrote:Is Dakka Dakka funded by battlefoam, thewarstore, sabol, or outrider? Seems like a tricky issue to moderate if so.

Battlefoam advertises here, and Romeo has sent yakface a 720 gratis that he did a review of about a month and a half ago. Take that for what you will

Not sure about the Warstore or Outrider, but I'd bet dollars to donuts that OH doesn't.

http://www.dakkadakka.com/core/services_existingads.jsp

Both The Warstore and Battlefoam advertise here. Outrider appears not to, nor does Sabol.

Looking at that list, I wonder how long it'll take for BF to go after KR Multi Case.

that'll be a different game, they are in europe.

Its unfortunate for drama wars =/

canute wrote:It's time to break out the Nerf

Not surprising. A number of the toy designers and staff at Hasbro used to play 40K and Warmachine at my store. It is no coincidence that a number of the nerf dart guns are suspiciously similar to 40K weapons as well...

Kanluwen wrote:I'm more interested as to why GenCon didn't institute a Foam Wars event.

There's money to be made there, I think.

While I haven't been to Gen Con in about 4 years, I can say that there used to be a vendor there that sold foam weapons and I would see daily "battles" in one of the non used areas. Whether it was an official event or not I cant' say however..

As to the whole business of foam vs foam vs whatever, I just don't see the problem in any of it. Vote with your wallet. If you don't like Battlefoam's attempt to stamp out competition don't buy from them, or better yet, buy from the competition. I wanted a new bag, I wanted custom foam for said bag, and I wanted to carry my entire army in this bag. So I went with battlefoam after seeing the fantastic job they did with a friends order. In the end, I'll be a happy consumer. What a business does outside of MY involvement with them shouldn't matter. If it did I'd have stopped buying from GW years ago.

Kinda Off-Topic:I would like to see a thread about this topic be discussed by the parties and people that are interested with anything else deleted, that would be awesome. But ATM this is only a thread about people going near the limit and mods telling warnings.

Back On-Topic: I, for one, do not support the the way Romeo is currently leading his business and would like more details on this affair.

Back Off-Topic:To all those who say to buy BF judging only by quality, you are missing a key ingredient in your analysis. BF might have the best trays but it doesn't have the best prices and obviously not the best PR. I have seen Romeo flame people on this forum and that is not the kind of person I want to encourage in business.

poipo32 wrote:

Back Off-Topic:To all those who say to buy BF judging only by quality, you are missing a key ingredient in your analysis. BF might have the best trays but it doesn't have the best prices and obviously not the best PR. I have seen Romeo flame people on this forum and that is not the kind of person I want to encourage in business.

I'd like to interject on this point.

I'm in no way a fan of how Battlefoam is dealing with its competition. That being said I do own a 720 and I will go on record as saying that even though I paid more for it than I would have a Sabol bag, after taking into consideration how much Sabol foam costs locally the Battlefoam bag only ended up costing me about 50 bucks more, and 35 of that was shipping. I will also say that Battlefoam is heads and shoulders above Sabol in terms of quality. I was always hesitant to take my Motor Pool on the bus to the local GW, fearing that if someone tripped on it that my army was done for. Not so with the Battlefoam. While it is a little bulkier, I feel much, much safer with it protecting my army.

Will I ever say "forget this, Battlefoam = the devil"? I doubt it. I'm pretty good at seperating the product from the people behind it and get that Battlefoam doesn't equal Romeo. However I completely understand where the people mentioning a boycott are coming from. I won't be participating, but I understand.

tl;dr - Battlefoam's way of dealing with competition: not cool. Battlefoam's bags: the best on the market.

warboss wrote:
the problem is that people see romeo's tactic differently then you. while he's billing himself as the nice guy just looking out for sabol designs and going after those infringing of a patent he doesn't have yet, some of us see him as using heavy handed legal tactics to scare off possible business relations between his competitors. again we have reports from him that witnesses are confusing his products with outrider stuff and claiming that they bought it from the warstore; the last time he claimed this the judge determined that the witness was manufactured and the claim was false. the warstore is stating otherwise regarding the sales and the recipient of his letter (sabol) certainly didn't think the legal document they recieved was benign. i wouldn't even remember outrider hobby's name (let alone be familiar with their products) if it wasn't for battlefoam's constant legal actions. battlefoam is doing more to damage their own reputation among web-enabled gamers than any other company ever could.

Others have quoted this, but I think warboss summed it up as well anyone. The above post reflects my feelings as well.

More importantly, I think naming this whole crisis should be the next Dakka poll. So far I've seen "Foam Wars", "in-fo-rama", "Foam-gate" and "War of the Foams".

Foam Wars.

In the end, they hurt us all.