http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/30/316945.page

That post is an outrageous exploitation of young people with limited business acumen and enthusiasm to see their designs used. Tunnel Rat should have gotten paid a lot more for his graphic design work.

Of course its common for companies to do this kind of thing for designs and photography because it saves them a ton of money. But no one can survive on the terrible income paid by these kinds of jobs. And they are jobs.

If you want to work as a graphic artist then demand a wage you can survive on. If you need graphic design you should hire a designer after looking over their portfolio, not hold a contest to pay bottom dollar for someones hard work under the guise of a contest.

Most likely the people who are graphic designers or artists by profession will not be looking into this anyway as they know what their time and skills are worth.

The people who entered it are most likely just regular people who experiment every now and then with Photoshop and took the chance to win some prizes for a little work.

Chill out, if they didn't want to enter because they thought they were being under valued they probably didn't enter.

Most likely doesn't cut it, that is not what's happening.

A legitimate job like this, includes a promise of future contract work.

As it is it's basically damaging the graphic arts business by putting downward pressure on prices so people can't survive as graphic artists.

If you were aware of the situation on a scale larger than this one contest you might understand my objections.

Its a contest.
People who enter it are more than aware of whats involved in every aspect of it.
You should also understand that winter has a very valid point.
You dont have to be a graphic designer to enter, you simply have to know how to use a computer to a decent degree.
So no, not everyone who enters is a graphic designer, and there for does not qualify for the money of one.

Now, if it advertised for graphic designers only, then it would be on the harsh side, but no one would enter if that was a problem to them.
But alas, it is not.

So, please enlighten us as to why you have taken such offence to this contest.

rdlb wrote:Most likely doesn't cut it, that is not what's happening.

A legitimate job like this, includes a promise of future contract work.

As it is it's basically damaging the graphic arts business by putting downward pressure on prices so people can't survive as graphic artists.

If you were aware of the situation on a scale larger than this one contest you might understand my objections.

I really don't think that any of the entrants were/are Graphic Designers by profession, and if they are, as I said before I imagine they would have weighed up the reward from possibly winning the "Contest" against the time it would take them to produce an entry that they were happy with.

As for downward pressure on prices on Graphic arts, there are other more important things (Torrents of Photoshop + other design programs, I rate up there. There are many people who do photo manipulation and other graphic work purely because they enjoy it (not for their profession), some of these people have fantastic talent and skills and this number increases daily as more and more practice and gain experience, that applies more pressure than a single contest on a Wargaming forum. Oh you also run into market saturation, at one stage every arty person pretty much wanted to enter Graphic design, now as there are so many competitors ina relatively closed market (meaning you all offer a similar product) you need to differentiate yourself in some way or another, PRICE generally gets changed first for this differentiation.) putting downward pressure on the graphics art industry than a contest for a single business logo for a currently not open business, that probably in the end won't be much larger than the LGS (No offence intended towards Empchild, I hope his/her business runs well.)

In the end if you are concerned about the situation of the Graphic Design industry on a larger scale, maybe it is a time for a career change? Or more interestingly you could enter yourself, score a prize worth $200 for maybe half an hour work and like most others think that wasn't a bad half hour spent.

Looks like a freakin' awesome contest to me...

Calm down. The contest gave someone an opportunity to show off some of their skills and given them an addition to their portfolio. Have you never under priced yourself to get exposure? When I started I sure as hell did. It built my portfolio and landed me better jobs.

Graphic arts is more or less screwed anyway. The rise of DIYers with photoshop will kill us. Yesterday in traffic I sat dumbfounded at two pieces of clip art, one on top of the other use as a logo; A tree on top of an anvil.

I've dealt with a lack of respect my entire career. Most people don't understand our business, and balk at the price tag. They like to look at the pretty pictures, but never pay for them. If your lucky enough to make a living off art, good for you. Respect on the other hand, only comes after your dead for artists.

So I assume the OP entered and didn't win then?

Crimson, the community isn't doomed, and no I have never under priced myself for exposure. That sets up the customer to think you are cheap to hire, so basically you're pricing yourself out of business from the get go.

I'm also dumbfounded by the GD and Photography that passes as legitimate. I charge a good amount and can explain to the customer what I bring to the table for that amount. There is a great book called 'better business practices for photographers' by John Harrington, and almost all of it applies to graphic design business.

He basically gives you an outline for solving the problems of people's perceptions of your value and costs, among a million other things.
If you're working for yourself check it out. I'm a photographer, (and no I didn't enter the contest Mr. Mystery Troll) but the designers I work with all use his books ideas as well.

I'm calm now...

So you avoid the price at all costs then?
True, the company has forked out $100, but the designer actually got $200 in value (as he/she wouldnt get this discount)

So $200 for half an hours work isnt bad.
Infact, if i could do half hours work a day for a week i'd be happy at that price.

Granted, expertise does have a price, but how can you value such a thing?
There is no current item to date in which you can measure someones skill.

Also, prices will allways be undercut to get work.
Doesent matter what job you do, it happens everywhere.





So, can you now let us know why this topic has kicked you soo hard in the nuts?
Seems you have a gripe with it pretty bad, and your skipping around it with your posts.

JACK--read what I already wrote

I guess it was my mistake to bring this up in a gaming forum instead of a Graphic Design forum.
Thanks.

rdlb wrote:If you want to work as a graphic artist then demand a wage you can survive on.

or offer to do work for FREE to just to get good exposure.

So what if you undercut the "professionals", and drive their wages down - it's not like you're getting paid anyways, so who cares?

Or maybe it's just fun, and that's payment enough.

So what, you rant for a bit, realise no one will agree then decide we dont have valid comments anymore?
In which case, why post it here in the 1st place?

rdlb wrote:As it is it's basically damaging the graphic arts business by putting downward pressure on prices so people can't survive as graphic artists

@OP: Nobody owes you a job, or a wage, much less a "good" wage. You *earn* it.


Graphic artists are a dime a dozen, just like aspiring models and aspiring singers and aspiring actresses.

Be thankful if you have the talent, skills, and determination to make it a living.

But don't bemoan the bottom trying to stick out from the crowd.

For Artists, it's free advertising when you win a comp of any sort. I was at a speech some graphic designers had at my college back in August, one of was saying that she applied for them whenever she could, because it's exposure to your work. The more exposure your work gets, the bigger chance someone who is looking for something like it. It also looks good on ye olde resume.

Meh. It's just another "Feel like you're a graphic designer" contest.

There's even worse stuff out there, done by our industry. Like going to design schools and giving them a solid 3 weeks to work on something that your agency fails at (and of course not really giving anything back). I have a ton of horror stories about things like that from my two years.

The contest could've been even worse. It could have been a "promise" to work with their other promotion material later on (something that rarely happen). And added a "If you wanna do letterheads and stuff please add them to your zip-file".

But for the most part these contests are made up by people that wouldnt ever pay for what a graphic designer brings to the table anyways. So it's not like the clueless people doing clipart+photoshop stuff in the wild are suffering. Some of them might even like what they've done and want to know more about this "graphic design" business. And presto... a new student.

Now I'm off to do what -real-designers/typographers do. Making Office-templates for a major compnany so they'll be better at communicating their core values to their customers. God I hate Office templates... >_<

Thanks for the book tip. Im gonna pick that one up when I'm in town again.

I'm fairly sure the 'contest' was described as just that - a contest and as such, everything was CLEARLY laid out.

It was entirely 100% voluntary.

Unless I missed something?

Another way of looking at this is that someone could now put this in their portfolio and be able to point to something that was chosen AND is used for a new business.

Plus, they won some stuff too.

So...

۞ Jack ۞ wrote:So what, you rant for a bit, realise no one will agree then decide we dont have valid comments anymore?
In which case, why post it here in the 1st place?

Lots of people will agree with him, there's just nothing constructive about having the discussion here.
There's not a great deal of point in trying to win over a chartered accountant in Boston who plays 40k to the issue of work-for-hire contracts and other issues plaguing the industry that dilute the value of work.

Ordo Dakka wrote:Looks like a freakin' awesome contest to me...

You would say that...

and as a fellow Aussie, Im inclined to agree... Im not designer or artist, but if something I mock up on Photoshop or similar can earn em a few extra dollars, Im in.

However, anyone with some business acumen can then contact the company in question for future contracts if they are serious about your work.

rdlb wrote:
Tunnel Rat should have gotten paid a lot more for his graphic design work.

Based upon what? Graphical design has no innate value. It's worth what the market will bear. In this case, the sponsor offered a price, it was found to be an acceptable price (as there were entries) and the transaction was happily concluded. Free market in action.

Ouze wrote:

rdlb wrote:
Tunnel Rat should have gotten paid a lot more for his graphic design work.

Based upon what? Graphical design has no innate value. It's worth what the market will bear. In this case, the sponsor offered a price, it was found to be an acceptable price (as there were entries) and the transaction was happily concluded. Free market in action.

Yeah, that's it in a nutshell.

Much as there are different tiers of design ability, there are different levels of acceptable pay. Someone who has proven their ability to be worth top money is not likely to look at a low-paying gig. However that same "rip-off" seems great to someone who hasn't earned that kind of recognition. Almost nobody enters a field and immediately demands top dollar without being laughed out of their respective industry, and this is especially true in the arts.

I see no problem here. Plus art is well known for absolute crap getting insane amount of money where people with real skill are scraping by. This is the situation for most to all arts.

If you feel you are being underpaid for the work you done in the contest then don't enter a contest that doesnt have a good enough prize - and think of all they people that put in their work and got nothing.

I know what your point is, but I am a pro with my own business, and still submitted. It took me literally 5 minutes to design the submission, and the prize was worth 5 minutes of my pro time.

Hiring a designer and paying them peanuts for skilled work is wrong. Having a volunatry contest where people elect to submit work is completely fine.

MajorTom11 wrote: Hiring a designer and paying them peanuts for skilled work is wrong. Having a volunatry contest where people elect to submit work is completely fine.

Any designer who accepts a low-paying job gets what he deserves. It's not like the buyer somehow held a gun to the designer's head. If the job pays badly, the designer is always free to accept any higher-paying job that's available.

Absolutely, I don't disagree. The problem with design and other creative careers is that most clients have no idea what's involved, either in terms of skill, study or expertise. A lot of people think it is just 'drawing' or that the computer somehow does it for you at the push of a button.

There are also a glut of people out there calling themselves designers because they fiddled with photoshop for 15 minutes one weekend. And they can get away with it too, because clients often can't tell the difference between pro work and what my circle lovingly calls 'basement designers' as they simply don't have the eye, education or experience to understand what high quality work is either.

There aren't many other fields other than creative ones where you can just arbitrarily decide to be professional. Im a writer. Im a designer. Im a photographer. Im a painter. That can be pulled off at a whim, at least to get 1 job lol. Not so much with other stuff like I'm a financial advisor, Im a fireman or shockingly enough, even Im a taxi driver.

Real designers have to compete with these fakes, and unless you are lucky or part of a larger company, getting people to understand that the faux designer that is charging them 20% of what you asked is a bad idea can be pretty tough. I am lucky as I have been lucky enough to cultivate corporate clients like reebok, who understand the difference. I have seen a lot of my former classmates and colleagues get out of the design business alltogether after being unable to find smaller clients willing to pay anywhere near a professional fee, they make more money managing a blockbuster than designing for smalltime jobs. This is directly because of unnatural competition from unqualified people. That is why many designers who strike out on their own are forced to take low paying jobs, there isnt much of a middle ground anymore. There are cheap jobs where you compete with young, uneducated freelancers who will work almost for free because they still live at home, or huge jobs that only a bigger agency can get (usually).

That being said, the contest in question got what it asked for, an amateur logo. The guy didn't get a marketing agency level piece of work, nor did he expect one. No one, including myself, put a professional level of work into their submissions from what I saw. To me the contest was fair in it's prize vs the work asked, plus the voluntary nature of it.

So some guy who knew what he was doing decided to do this in his spare time. Big whoop. The original poster gave exact, and clear definitions of the contest in the original post. Obviously, Tunnel Rat was not looking on dakka for an actual job (at least I hope not....). and this was done voluntarily in his own spare time. I personally liked the design, as it was simple enough to be used in many different situations, detailed enough to give an idea of what they do, and not too gritty or obscure.

@MT11: well put. The only thing I'd add is that the guy probably couldn't have afforded a marketing agency-level job, even if he wanted one. For a small shop, he got something that's "good enough" and within his budget - that's a win all around.

I just reread the op, and I'm wondering, where in the contest's rules/guidelines did it promise future work? I read no such thing, and it appeared to be a one-time contest, to be entered voluntarily. And, yes, you're right, you should go rant on a forum where people will agree and echo what you've already said. Note the number of threads on this site for hating on GW, except some people will defend GW.

Yup as long as EmpChild is happy then it's a total win! Don't get me wrong. I just dont agree with the original poster that EmpChilds contest took advantage of anyone, or was somehow unfair. Everyone entered, had fun, and a deserving winner took home a nice prize. no harm, no foul.

I have some sympathy with the OP, though I disagree with his specific attack on the contest promoter and entrants.

There isn't an unfair exploitation if you offer a prize and people volunteer to compete for it.

This isn't terrible, really. The prize, for an entry-level designer, is icing on the cake for the real reward, which is a portfolio piece. A lot of designers try to get jobs straight out of school with a portfolio of 'fake' design work, no real designs that are actually in use.

Kilkrazy wrote:
There isn't an unfair exploitation if you offer a prize and people volunteer to compete for it.

A-fething-men.

The comp was placed here, amongst those who will use the business. It was open, clear and the prizes and nature clearly stated.

It was a community activity and also raised the profile of the future business.

The suggestion it was exploitative is bizarre.

MajorTom11 wrote: Real designers have to compete with these fakes

If you get hired to design a piece, and you got paid with a check for it, and the check didn't bounce, you are a real designer. The problem here is I think you put an unreasonable value on you work. There is no such thing as, as you put it, "unnatural competition from unqualified people". If you went to school for graphic design, hey, that's great - and totally, completely irrelevant. If you can't compete with someone who does it for less money, regardless of their background, that's the real world.

Your arguments that these "fakes" as you put it, don't produce as good quality as you can - also irrelevant. If it's good enough for the client, that's really all that matters. I get that it's hard to make a living in some fields. I'd like to make a living eating pie professionally. Unfortunately for both of us, your work is worth what others will pay for it, regardless of your rather subjective opinion.

Does this mean we have to shut down Golden Daemon until we can prove the entrants are all professional painters/sculptors and are being fairly paid for their time and effort?

That's right, just like how you're a "pro-painter" if you can sell your garbage on e-bay. Oh wait, no, their work is terrible and bought by idiots that don't know any better.

Baring pedantic dictionary definitions, you aren't a professional just because someone pays you to do something. There's a certain level of quality required and it does matter, which is why it's important to educate people about the impact of quality work.

Again though, in a site where people are equating graphic design with pie eating, this isn't the place to have this discussion. Maybe this can be locked before we have people telling art professionals to get real jobs.


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SilverMK2 wrote:Does this mean we have to shut down Golden Daemon until we can prove the entrants are all professional painters/sculptors and are being fairly paid for their time and effort?

Asinine. Yes, this is exactly the same situation. What an insightful piece of commentary.

plastictrees wrote:Asinine. Yes, this is exactly the same situation. What an insightful piece of commentary.

One hardly has to point out the irony of your post to you I assume?

And thank you. It was not intended as a serious point as the thread is full of arguments and counter arguments from both sides already. The point is that there is a clear distinction between a "contest" designed to attract "amateur" entries, and a request for professional (one would assume) work to be undertaken on a paid basis.

As has been pointed out already, the thread linked to in the OP was clearly a contest, with stated rules and prizes. Participants were aware of exactly what they were involved with from the start and could choose to take part or not. The organiser had determined that they wanted, or were happy with the "amateur" designers who would most likely be attracted by the prize (or price) offered to the winning design. Since they were evidently unwilling to pay out for a professional design, and/or wanted the exposure the contest would bring, etc, they were unlikely to go to a professional firm anyway, meaning that even if the guy had sat at home and drawn something up in paint himself, the outcome would have been the same for the teams of professional designers sitting around the world, just waiting for the phone to ring. Oh, except he would have been able to keep a bunch of cool stuff to actually sell to people rather than give away.

In the same way that GD is not there for GW to get professional painters to convert and paint up showcase quality minis to advertise GW's stuff - it is there for people to take part, compete and show off their talents. Is it bad that GW then happens to then take the best entries and show them off in WD, on their website, etc...

Ouze wrote:

MajorTom11 wrote: Real designers have to compete with these fakes

If you get hired to design a piece, and you got paid with a check for it, and the check didn't bounce, you are a real designer. The problem here is I think you put an unreasonable value on you work. There is no such thing as, as you put it, "unnatural competition from unqualified people". If you went to school for graphic design, hey, that's great - and totally, completely irrelevant. If you can't compete with someone who does it for less money, regardless of their background, that's the real world.

Your arguments that these "fakes" as you put it, don't produce as good quality as you can - also irrelevant. If it's good enough for the client, that's really all that matters. I get that it's hard to make a living in some fields. I'd like to make a living eating pie professionally. Unfortunately for both of us, your work is worth what others will pay for it, regardless of your rather subjective opinion.

You miss my point...

The point is that these fakes hurt the clients in the end. They simply leave them open to risks and mistakes an educated, trained and experienced professional never would, and that's not even talking skill and creativity. In the end, problems arise, and whether you or anyone likes it or not, there is a clear difference in the look and feel and application of good design vs bad. When you pay cheap, you generally get cheap work. Your company will not make a prestigious first impression, you will run into situations where your logo doesn't work or is inapplicable to the media desired, and in general, these things usually add up to a loss of profit and business growth.

It is subjective, yes, but there are certain things that can be objectively quantified. You may think it is irrelevant to be a trained, experienced professional with several degrees, but I think the world in general kind of looks on that favorably. When I say educated, I don't necessarily mean with a degree, you can most definitely teach yourself with a lot of dedication and hard work, but the point is you have to train, to research and understand what you are doing in a fundamental way. If you just learn photoshop, it means you know photoshop, it does not mean you know anything about design... owning a paintbrush doesn't make you an expert Baroque painter, or even mean you know what Baroque means lol.

There is a reason that you can pay millions for a single logo from an agency and a hundred bucks from one of these 'fakes'. I never said I couldn't compete with the fakes, but I do think that people with attitudes you seem to be espousing the entry of non-educated workers in a field that requires education with the application of any form of sense only end up harming themselves in the longrun. After all, the real competition is between the client and their rivals in the end, if the client takes crap work, then chances are the guy with pro work will come out on top in the end. After all, if branding didn't mean anything, it would be tough to explain the existence of a Billion dollar a year industry built around it now wouldn't it?

ITT buggy whip manufacturers complaining about automobiles.

That's right, a clip art fish recolored in photoshop as a logo is the shiny automobile that professional graphic designers are chasing on the horse of high quality work.

This thread is full of ridiculous analogies.

To be clear I don't agree that the contest was a rip-off in any way. I found the attitude it expressed to be insulting to creative professionals, but that's not inherent to contests in general, just the way Empchild was expressing himself.


Aughh...why can't I stop posting in this thread!

I'm honestly curious what a "real" design by a proffesional done for Battleroad would look like compared to the winner of the contest and what % of people would know which is which.

plastictrees wrote:Baring pedantic dictionary definitions, you aren't a professional just because someone pays you to do something.

That's sort of exactly what a professional is. Someone who earns a living in a given field.

plastictrees wrote:That's right, just like how you're a "pro-painter" if you can sell your garbage on e-bay. Oh wait, no, their work is terrible and bought by idiots that don't know any better.

If crappy painter sells 10 space marines for $10 each, and Bob Master Paint sells one masterfully done marine for $50 - Who is the real professional? The guy who is working to satisfy his market, or the guy who isn't?

I think the real issue is confusing "a professional" with "an artist". An artist creates to express themselves. They may get paid for it, but that's really tertiary - the drive is the creation.

A professional earns a living creating to the level the client is willing to pay for. That's why it's called the "graphic design business". Otherwise, open an art gallery.

MajorTom11 wrote:You miss my point...

No, I get it. You make it plain: You're not really a professional unless you've got a piece of paper declaring it so, and innate talent and practice are not relevant. I personally disagree with you.

Mr Peanut from the KP peanuts packets was designed by a 9-year olf girl in a contest. I believe she won $10.

This is the way things are. Clever people like me don't enter competitions like this, as that's me basically doing my dayjob for nothing.

Read the rules. If you don't agree, don't enter. Simple.

MajorTom11 wrote:

You miss my point...

The point is that these fakes hurt the clients in the end. They simply leave them open to risks and mistakes an educated, trained and experienced professional never would, and that's not even talking skill and creativity. In the end, problems arise, and whether you or anyone likes it or not, there is a clear difference in the look and feel and application of good design vs bad. When you pay cheap, you generally get cheap work. Your company will not make a prestigious first impression, you will run into situations where your logo doesn't work or is inapplicable to the media desired, and in general, these things usually add up to a loss of profit and business growth.

Caveat emptor?

MajorTom11 wrote:

After all, the real competition is between the client and their rivals in the end, if the client takes crap work, then chances are the guy with pro work will come out on top in the end. After all, if branding didn't mean anything, it would be tough to explain the existence of a Billion dollar a year industry built around it now wouldn't it?

I think a large amount of the problem is that you are accusing the people offering sub-quality work of diminishing your overall profitability instead of the companies buying that sub-quality work. You're the Montgomery Ward manager standing around the empty store wondering why everyone is buying that crappy merchandise from that newfangled "Wal-Mart" store across the road. In this day and age, there is "Quality" and then there is "Good Enough". The trend is to side with "Good Enough". This is why companies lease hardware instead of buying it. They're technically getting a worse deal, but it suits them more at the time.

I understand your frustration though; this isn't just limited to the "Creative" professions. A friend of mine got a job about a year ago as a programmer. He has a four year degree, and due to the oversaturation of the market from all of the in-and-out "bad" schools that give you some sort of cert/degree in weeks, he gets paid about what a manager at McDonald's would make. Insert additional competition from outsourcing/visas from people that have never written code, only studied theory, and you've got an industry rotting from the inside out.

Quality is dead; ours is the age of the lowest bidder.

MajorTom11 wrote:There are also a glut of people out there calling themselves designers because they fiddled with photoshop for 15 minutes one weekend. And they can get away with it too, because clients often can't tell the difference between pro work and what my circle lovingly calls 'basement designers' as they simply don't have the eye, education or experience to understand what high quality work is either.

If the client has to go to school for and have experience at graphic design to tell the difference between the Real Designer's logo and one put together by some guy who spend 15 minutes with photoshop, why should he pay 5x as much for the Real Designer? According to what you just said, the vast majority of people who see the logo won't be able to tell the difference, as they haven't been to school and worked as a graphic designer, and paying a bunch more just to have a logo that appeals to graphic designers doesn't make any sense. If your 'pro work' is indistinguishable from 'basement designer work' to 99% of people who see it, it's really not worth paying more for.

Real designers... This is directly because of unnatural competition from unqualified people.

How is it "unnatural" for artists to have to compete with other artists? If your work isn't good enough for people to distinguish it from unqualified, fake designer's work, then it sounds to me like your qualifications aren't as real as you think.


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plastictrees wrote:Baring pedantic dictionary definitions, you aren't a professional just because someone pays you to do something. There's a certain level of quality required and it does matter, which is why it's important to educate people about the impact of quality work.

You're a professional at X if you either get paid for X, or (in the more restrictive definition) make a living doing X. That's it, that's what the word means. If I open a restaurant, cook at it, and make money on it, I'm a professional chef. You might think my food is crap, or that I didn't go to school enough, or that someone more educated would appreciate your food more than mine, but that doesn't matter.

OP: Gee whiz, calm down.

It's a contest for a game store selling army men. How big of a budget do you think they have? Prolly almost none. It's not like Microsoft was here asking for a free logo and seriously, how long does it take to make a new logo? Maybe a 10 minute doodle on a sketch pad, another half hour tops in photoshop or illustrator.

I've been a designer for 20 years now. 45 minutes worth of work for some free minis sounds like a heluva deal to me.

Did you enter and not get picked and thats why you're bitter? who cares. it's a contest for army men on a message board. it's not the end of the world (till 2012).

You guys didn't listen to a thing I said. Ouze you completely missed the point, instead of getting pissy and clever, try actually reading what I wrote before trying to contradict me. I specifically said they don't need a degree necessarily, but they do need training.

Designers aren't artists, they are service providers. Design has nothing to do with 'expressing your feelings' and everything to do with providing a client something they like that pleases them, is viable, researched and usable. The logo is only the first step, it only gets more complex after that, technically, artistically and business wise. If you think a designer just does 'art' then good luck to you.

If you are working as a designer you should be able to educate your clients on the best way to go about things, if you can't do that because you just know photoshop and never looked at fontography, business design, marketing, print and web standards, customer relations, legal considerations, etc, then a designer you are not. You are just calling yourself one. Its not complicated, stop trying to put words in my mouth and listen to what I'm actually saying, not what you want me to be saying. If you won't take the word of a guy with 10 years experience, self-trained and degrees both, and just think its some pissing contest with these guys who charge 10 bucks an hour 'stealing my business' then there is nothing I will say that will get you to actually pay attention. The fact is they aren't stealing any business off my plate, as arrogant as it may sound, we arent even playing in the same league. That's not ego, it's just fact. The companies I deal with would never do business with a solitary free lancer, they are looking for studio/agency work. So as you can see, inferring I have personal animosity or competition when it's nothing of the kind is really derailing this thread off an honest conversation and point I was trying to make. Disagree if you want, you are absolutely entitled to it, but don't try and make me sound like a child whos arguments are brought on by jealousy of the competition, with no actual experience or logical argument.

Back OT, the contest was fine, Empchild is happy with his logo and congrats to a deserving winner, nothing wrong happend on that thread.

Now if you'll excuse me, I have a meeting with Reebok to prep for

daedalus wrote:In this day and age, there is "Quality" and then there is "Good Enough". The trend is to side with "Good Enough". This is why companies lease hardware instead of buying it. They're technically getting a worse deal, but it suits them more at the time.

Not necessarily, as there's no disposition cost / liability on the back end, plus a lot of physical maintenance cost can be pushed onto the lessor. You need to look at the big picture of lifecycle cost, which is more than just the acquisition on the front end.

As I see it, in a corporate environment, it makes sense to own servers for semi-permanent data / IP storage, but little sense to own commodity terminals or workstation.

MajorTom11 wrote:There aren't many other fields other than creative ones where you can just arbitrarily decide to be professional. Im a writer. Im a designer. Im a photographer. Im a painter. That can be pulled off at a whim, at least to get 1 job lol. Not so much with other stuff like I'm a financial advisor, Im a fireman or shockingly enough, even Im a taxi driver.

OMG yes, don't get me started.

You should try being a writer in the age of blogging. "See, I'm a pro! I have a blog!"

rdlb wrote:Most likely doesn't cut it, that is not what's happening.

A legitimate job like this, includes a promise of future contract work.

As it is it's basically damaging the graphic arts business by putting downward pressure on prices so people can't survive as graphic artists.

If you were aware of the situation on a scale larger than this one contest you might understand my objections.

Considering that I linked to NoSpec, on the first post on the contest, and that then generated some discussion, they probably are aware...

LOL hey it's not like they teach you anything at school for 3+ years other than how to type and register a blog right lol

Literary history? Proper referencing? Different writing styles? Proper grammar and sentence structure? How to write for corporate, literary or journalism? Sourcing and protecting your work? Liability issues? Format? Cultural awareness? Proper procedure?

Nah. Just a keyboard and how to mash it. I'm a writer!

It's not like it's our job to be an expert on the subject and help a client achieve MORE than they envisioned when they came to us, or protect them from mistakes and yes sometimes even themselves! Frankly they could do it themselves just as well but they just come to us to save time right???

Ouze wrote:
No, I get it. You make it plain: You're not really a professional unless you've got a piece of paper declaring it so, and innate talent and practice are not relevant. I personally disagree with you.

Being a Professional, can also be a matter of attitude, a while ago I saw a artist complaigning that they didn't get a "professional" standard of service at the art show of a sci-fi con, considering the staff there were all voulenteers, I pointed out that it was a little much to expect.

There is something to be said for some experience in the field, specifically with industry printing and format standards, I saw a post in the original thread that said the entry would probably be best submitted in .psd... this is actually fairly bad...(the best way would probably be .eps or .ai) first off PSD files can't be resized with out loss of quality, they're -bigger- than vector files, and there's the whole RGB/CYMK/Pantone color set issues to reproducing them correctly.. someone with the training and experience, -knows- this and knows how to deliver something that can be used... so the client doesn't find they have a design that -looks- great, but they have to go running back to the designer,or hire someone else because they can't -use- it.

Yeh well this competition wasn't catching my interest until I learnt we have two other pro designers have laready entered, and one who seems fairly up his own arse about how good he is. Maybe I'll be the third.

edit: I see now it's already ended, ....though it's not October first yet. hmmm oh well

Also to the OP, there is nothing wrong with this. This is the kind of stuff you put on your CV when your starting a design career. You don't get paid graphic design work without experience, and you wont get experience without offering your services for free. I won stuff like an xbox, a pc and the adobe creative suite for example in competitions like this when I started out.

I have to say I have seen plenty of high price, professional design work, which was absolute pants, punted at my company. We bought a lot of it, too.

So you're complaining that you can't compete with "amateurs," because the people who are actually purchasing the product can't tell the difference between your "professional" output, and even prefer the "amateur" work? And that someone should step in and put a stop to this outrage of people being rewarded for this travesty of providing a satisfactory product and being compensated for it, because you aren't getting paid for it yourself?

Get over yourself.

Sigh I give up, you guys have your hissy fits all you want lol. Anyone who will actually READ MY POSTS and wants to engage in an actual conversation about it with logical discourse, let me know. Looks like anyone reading stops at the 1st or second line, gets irate and then posts I can't compete wa wa wa....

For the billionth time, I do pretty well for myself, I don't compete with them, because I work corporate clients only. That's not getting up my own butt, it's just a fact. My clients would never, ever hire a single person, only agencies.

So, if you actually get over yourself and actually read everything I wrote, even if you don't agree with me, it's not a nutty rant on amateurs taking my money. They are posts about respecting hard work, training in any form, and knowing how to deliver a professional product. Stop being a self righteous ass and do your homework reading everything I wrote before posting pissyness at me boy.

I have to agree with MajorTom in that I think you guys might be misunderstanding his posts. As a person who's done a LOT of AMATEUR design work (short videos, logos put on T-shirts/posters/fliers, and the like) there is such a crazy difference between someone like me (with some skill, imho, but no training) over someone who does this for a living / is a "professional".

In the group I did this for (all of us volunteering) there was one professional also donating his time. Our work was night and day. At a glance, it might look about the same. But if you wanted to re-scale it, print it, put it on the website, alter the colors, use the same font/style for another image, etc... the amateurs' work was not reproducible, whereas the professional's was.

I think MajorTom was mostly pointing out how pros need to price themselves accordingly, but it's hard to find people who will pay when they can get good logos like this. In the long run, though, if your company has the money to invest in a professional logo, it will pay off.

Just my $0.02 and my understanding of the posts, of course!

SINCERE THANK YOU RiTides!

That is exactly what I was getting at.

Logos can be put together fairly easily, and yes, you can please a client with relatively little effort and training. But after that, when you start putting together the corporate identities, print campaigns, marketing strategies, web sites with Search Engine Optimization, Content Management Systems, Custom Carts, you can't just wing it. You can't just chuck it out there by pressing a button. It takes time to learn how to do these things, and if you are promising all the above, you owe it to the client to know what you are doing because that is exactly what they expect when they hire you. I learned to do 90% of this stuff outside of school, on my own or on the job, but it still took years and it will continue til I retire...

In addition to the above, the job could encompass focus groups, copywriting, animations, storyboards, tv commercials, smart phone apps, security, image creation, presentations etc etc etc. Logo's are a tiny part of things covered by a 'professional designer'.

I dunno guys, I apologize for coming off wrong, I wasn't looking to get in an argument with anyone. I just hope if you look at that list above, you can understand why I would not be fond of people thinking design is just making pretty pictures.

Well I understand that but having a competition gets publicity and respect for winning in most cases, portfolios are strong things to have.

I'm a website designer (designed sites that the owner sold for over $40,000) and even though its a different fields everyone is looking for the cheapest route for what they want and it's harmful to your pocket. But I see nothing wrong with the thought of holding competitions, the artist enters on there own knowing what they are getting into and the company's know they in most cases they wont get top notch stuff. Its a win-win for more expensive work you have to show boat your portfolio.

Lol . Yeah, I'm not sure where the miscommunication is happening- it might just be a lot of people reacting to perceived exorbitant fees for low quality art, or something similar.

But having seen this kind of contrast up close (between my work and the pro I volunteered with ) I know what you're talking about . My work was good, and fine for our purposes, but a company would've done well to pay 5x more for the pro's work and be able to use it where/when/how they needed it, with the same level of quality across the board!

I'm sure you did fine work sir

And it seems like you picked up some habit tips from the pro on how to make sure the logos are universally applicable, which means you can deliver to the client without them coming back and telling you 'I printed it on a banner for a conference and it looked like it was made of pixels the size of bricks!' lol!

Isnt this issue ( in a way ) similar to new miniature / gamming companies using forums for example ,
host some contest witih $90 battle force ( costs them $35 retail ) on the forum for 2 months.
And that works better than any possible paid advertising or banner space?

I would say I picked up on the fact that he was doing that, and that doing it would be a really good idea, rather than that I was able to pull it off for my own stuff!

For example, I altered the design of the Dakka Dice slightly- and knew what I needed to do (and not do), but it took me hours to do it . Probably would've taken someone who knew what they were doing about 5 minutes!

Anyway, I'm interested in seeing people who are professional designers, because it does seem like such a hard way to make a living. I got the impression that there was quite a community / that designers tended to discuss and stick together. It's got to be a hard thing to survive off of, especially in this economy!

MajorTom11 wrote:Stop being a self righteous ass and do your homework reading everything I wrote before posting pissyness at me boy.

I hope you see the irony of calling others "self-righteous asses" while simultaneously deriding others in your field who also earn a living at their work, yet lack formal education as "fakes".

There are different levels of expectations for design, and the fact that some multinational conglomerates have more stringent requirements then a mom-and-pop shop who needs a simple logo doesn't mean that either one of you are less of a professional in your field. To think so is self-rationalizing snobbery. At the end of the day, if you designed something for a client, the client was happy, and your got paid, you are a professional.

Formal education isn't necessarily what it takes to be a professional- the guy I worked with majored in something completely unrelated, but put in the work and hours to become a professional designer when he discovered it was his passion...

Exactly as RiTides just said, is what I've said all along.

Ouze... I AGREE WITH YOU MAN!!! Everything I wrote agreed with the points made in your last post.

Realize though that you are talking only about succesful scenarios where the designer, trained in school or not, corporate or not, delivered something to the client with no problems and continued to do so. This is a professional absolutely, a track record of pleased clients says so for sure!

BUT

For every 1 of the ideal cases you describe, there are 20 of guys telling people ya I can do it, then delivering total crap that won't print, won't fit on a webpage without being a pixelated mess etc etc. These guys present themselves as pros a couple of times, screw the client and themselves, and then they dissapear... But they still call themselves pros...

I've seen this countless times, and a lot of clients came to me after experiencing this. In my case, because I am at an agency, there is a credibility built in that people appreciate after an experience like that. In my case, it helps if anything. I just feel bad when I see students graduate after years of hard work, getting frustrated bidding against people who can't hold a candle to them but get to call themselves the same title.

I am talking about the bad examples only man, if you are good you are good, you can learn on your own if you really try and you love what you do. Again, all I ever said was that there WAS stuff to learn behind the career, it wasnt just arbitrary doodling!

Fair enough.

*sighs in relief and extends hand of friendship*

We cool.

/fist bump

I think MajorTom is spot on with everything he is saying.

I also work professionally as a graphic designer and illustrator (I have my own business and have worked for some big names like Barclays Bank and Nokia), and I didn't see anything wrong with the competition. ~$200 for maybe an hours work, on something that actually seemed quite fun (you wouldn't believe the mundane stuff I have to work on sometimes) If I'd seen the topic I probably would have considered having a go myself.

One problem I frequently have as an artist is that most everywhere I post work, I get bombarded by emails and PMs from people I don't even know wanting me to draw them stuff 'as a favour'. Because they would like a portrait of themselves, or because they think they could use a picture for some lame project they have in mind (usually a website) and that I've got nothing better to do than to draw it for them. Sometimes they offer me the promise of small-change or fame on the offchance that their lame ass website/homebrew comic book ever makes any money... Like they are actually doing me a favor bringing me this wondrous opportunity.

It's not limited to the Internet either, in real life I get asked all the time to design tattoos and other rubbish, with no prospect of payment.

People don't seem to realize that something like that might take hours or days of my time. And all the while I have my rent and my electricity and my food which I still have to pay for, just so I can continue work for free on their BS project. They seem to think it's no big deal, like I can just pull something out of my ass while I'm waiting for the kettle to boil, but in reality it's my time and my money.

Compared to those guys; someone offering quite a decent prize for what will probably be very little work is actually a quite a nice find.

BearersOfSalvation wrote:If the client has to go to school for and have experience at graphic design to tell the difference between the Real Designer's logo and one put together by some guy who spend 15 minutes with photoshop, why should he pay 5x as much for the Real Designer? According to what you just said, the vast majority of people who see the logo won't be able to tell the difference, as they haven't been to school and worked as a graphic designer, and paying a bunch more just to have a logo that appeals to graphic designers doesn't make any sense. If your 'pro work' is indistinguishable from 'basement designer work' to 99% of people who see it, it's really not worth paying more for.

The difference is probably going to be quality of workmanship. Unfortunately some people have no eye for quality and no taste either, probably not as many as 99% of people, but definitely some (like pretty much all producers), and there is no accounting for them.

But for most people I think it tends to boil down to the "I could do that" factor... If someone shows you something which you know how to do, and know it's easy, then it's usually going to be unimpressive. Conversely If someone shows you something that you don't know how to do, or know is difficult then you are usually impressed.

I'm sure if I went back to 1600 and showed people some crappy photos that I took with a disposable camera, they would probably hold me in awe as the greatest painter of all time. However if I came to you now and said "hey check out my awesome painting" and showed you a crappy snap from a disposable camera... I'm sure you would tell me to f**k off.

Photoshop isn't anywhere near as old and well established as the camera, so there are still a few people around who are easily impressed by things that anyone can do with almost no ability or training. And this is certainly frustrating for people who do have ability and training, and who try to do quality work.

Perhaps it is these 'basement designers' that are perpetuating the myth that designs can just be pulled out your ass in 5 mins, and it's mostly done by the computer anyway, because for them... it's true.

SmackCakes wrote:One problem I frequently have as an artist is that most everywhere I post work, I get bombarded by emails and PMs from people I don't even know wanting me to draw them stuff 'as a favour'.

Obviously, the only proper response is to immediately ask, hey, speaking of, can you come over and mop my floor? I heard you were awesome at mopping.

Lol Ouze . That's a pretty good comeback!

lol
Friend asked if I was interested in designing a tattoo
Some Peruvian motif was required
politely said nah

never mind SmackCakes, could be worse. You could be a doctor and have people bugging you off duty to look at various body parts.

hmm, in some circumstances that might be a good thing

I don't think its exploitation. The simple fact is, its a start up company/business/store... they're lucky to have any money to put towards a logo. The guy who posted the contest was only expecting someone to put in an hour or two of effort. $200 for that much effort, while less than what a professional makes, he obviously wasn't seeking that level of competence. The alternative would likely be him going to some relative and offer them the same amount. This was just a populist approach.

Also if you go to any number of animation conventions, there are always striving artists who are selling their work and taking commissions. I've had more significant work done for less. They set price.

He made an offer and people took it.

SmackCakes wrote:The difference is probably going to be quality of workmanship. Unfortunately some people have no eye for quality and no taste either, probably not as many as 99% of people, but definitely some (like pretty much all producers), and there is no accounting for them.

The post I was originally responding to stated that you would need to go to design school and have experience as a graphic designer to tell the difference between the Real Designer's logo and one that some Fake Designer made. I doubt that more than 1% of the population went to school for and worked as professional designers, so the percent that would not be able to tell the difference according to what MajorTom said would be 99% or more. If his statement was true (I don't think it is), then there really would be no point in hiring a Real Designer, as something from a Fake Designer would be indistinguishable from the real product for virtually everyone who sees it, and much cheaper.

If the 'Real Whatever''s work can only be distinguished from the 'Fake Whatever''s work by someone who's gone to school for and worked as 'whatever', then the only reason to pay more for the Real Whatever's work is to impress other Real Whatevers, which most people don't care about.

I'm in IT, so "Can you look at my computer?" is a pretty common request. Thankfully my specialty is pretty esoteric (Corporate PBX & network gear) that it's kind of like asking a podiatrist to look at your cold. Sure, I might have done that kind of thing years ago, but it's all a little fuzzy and out of date now. My response to a virus on a machine is to kick it off the network and send in the desktop guys.

Still, if expectations are reasonable if you've got a talent for design doing a tattoo it can make a good Christmas present or similar. Time is as much a currency as cash, sometimes.

Ouze wrote: At the end of the day, if you designed something for a client, the client was happy, and your got paid, you are a professional.

And if you designed something for a client, and got paid, and the client -wasn't- happy?

You still made some money off of it, can you still claim to be a profressional?

And as I pointed out in the original thread, contests can be a sleezy but effective way to get a -lot- of work done, and only pay -one- worker. The guy who winsgot paid for his work, but the other X-number didn't....

For an example, look at the "design a ship for EVE" contest on DA... they're getting a -lot- of design work done, fairly cheaply..

Lanceradvanced wrote:

Ouze wrote: At the end of the day, if you designed something for a client, the client was happy, and your got paid, you are a professional.

And if you designed something for a client, and got paid, and the client -wasn't- happy?

You still made some money off of it, can you still claim to be a profressional?

And as I pointed out in the original thread, contests can be a sleezy but effective way to get a -lot- of work done, and only pay -one- worker. The guy who winsgot paid for his work, but the other X-number didn't....

For an example, look at the "design a ship for EVE" contest on DA... they're getting a -lot- of design work done, fairly cheaply..

Then the designer can still call himself a professional, since getting a client to sign a contract whereby no objection to the final product can be made has to be worth something. The the client shouldn't have paid them. Simple.

I don't know how the other designers who are posting in this thread do it. But if the guy who made this comp came to me he'd be getting asked what kind of thing he wanted, getting presented with several options, then once he picked one we'd go through what he wants changed and It would get changed.

It seems to me some people in this thread think graphic design is just slinging a design at someone and they have to put up with what they get.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also, why is this in Dakka Discussions?

Why wouldn't it be here?

I'm in the camp that doesn't really see the value of graphic design firms for the average business.

My employer spent literally millions getting a new corporate image, new logos, rebranding etc. They had a big ceremony rolling it out and the net result, nothing. Share prices remained unchanged, no change in new business, nothing. Meanwhile there were a hundred better things the money could of been spent on to really improve the business.

In my opinion for most businesses things like changing the logo are basically an ego stroking exercise for executives who want to give their opinions on things.

That's not to say that graphic designers don't have their place but in my opinion a lot of the work they do is unecessary and a waste of time. (I think this reflects more on the executives than the designers) Designers are not innocent though, they have to convince the executives that all this money they are spending is worth it. Unfortunately they have bought there own crap about how great what they are doing is. Thus you have the situtation we see in this thread, where they have an overly inflated sense of how much their time is worth.

Just the opinion of lowly engineer.

asmith wrote:Why wouldn't it be here?

Perhaps because, apart from the fact the company hosting the competition which inspired this thread sells wargaming stuff, it has little to do with wargaming.

Also the majority of graphic design work isn't for companies wanting to change their logo. And of the costs which are involved in changing your companies logo, the design costs will be a minority.

Your logic escapes me... aside from the fact that the store is going to sell wargaming stuff, the contest itself had little to do with wargaming.

Sorry ... I'm not agreeing with you.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Please enlighten me as to what the majority of graphic design work is I am genuinely curious.

asmith wrote:Your logic escapes me... aside from the fact that the store is going to sell wargaming stuff, the contest itself had little to do with wargaming.

Sorry ... I'm not agreeing with you.

Ok? ...so your disagreeing with me that this thread has little to do with war gaming?

asmith wrote:Please enlighten me as to what the majority of graphic design work is I am genuinely curious.

Wow, someone got out of the wrong side of bed today huh.

Most of my work for example is usually to do with campaign material like leaflets or logos to front campaigns. But I also design flyers for club events. Posters. Clothing graphics etc. etc. Then after that you get startup companies wanting a logo or other material. ...very rarely are there companies wanting a complete overhaul of their logo, it kind of demolishes any existing brand unless you throw a lot of money at it, most of which wont be spent on the new design of the logo.

Yes... This fits into the board in a lot of ways. Many people on this board are starting companies having to do with wargaming and the topic has come up several times. It is at least tangentially related in the way that most of the threads in the "Dakka Discussions" are. So I do not agree with you that the topic does not belong here.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Wrong side of the bed? No I am genuinely curious I said please and everything, you are reading too much into it.

A lot of what you just said you did also goes into a company that changes their logo right? You are chianging advertising flyers and letterhead etc. I'm not seeing too much of a distinction.

asmith wrote:Yes... This fits into the board in a lot of ways. Many people on this board are starting companies having to do with wargaming and the topic has come up several times. It is at least tangentially related in the way that most of the threads in the "Dakka Discussions" are. So I do not agree with you that the topic does not belong here.

And apart from the fact the orignal post referenced a company which was starting up. What does this thread have to do with starting companies?

asmith wrote:A lot of what you just said you did also goes into a company that changes their logo right? You are changing advertising flyers and letterhead etc. I'm not seeing too much of a distinction.

Huh? I'm not changing anything. A company needs a new flyer for example, I design the flyer. What am I changing?

This thread had me wondering if it would fit better in OT as well. I allowed it to stick around in this forum because it had very weak ties to something that had happened on Dakka, now that the discussion has moved from that to the design community as a whole, I'm going to send it to a more appropriate forum.

I think now we are finding out who really woke up on the wrong side of the bed. You are just being disagreeable. I've already stated my position and you are just taking dragging this off topic. if you really want to, take it to PM.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Dah, you and your stealth edits. Did you read what I wrote there, it seems like you are determined to get into an arguement. IF you are changing a corporate logo you (the hypothetical you) are also engage in activities like changing advertising flyers and letterhead. Does that make it clearer?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Wow Greydeath I really don't get it... how are the two topics on is dakka going downhill related to wargaming? maybe move those as well?

asmith wrote:I think now we are finding out who really woke up on the wrong side of the bed. You are just being disagreeable. I've already stated my position and you are just taking dragging this off topic. if you really want to, take it to PM.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Dah, you and your stealth edits. Did you read what I wrote there, it seems like you are determined to get into an arguement. IF you are changing a corporate logo you (the hypothetical you) are also engage in activities like changing advertising flyers and letterhead. Does that make it clearer?

I didn't ninja edit anything. I added a response to your own edit.

I'm not trying for an argument. I'm the one working as a graphic designer and your the one who thinks they have a better idea about what it is I do.

asmith wrote: IF you are changing a corporate logo you (the hypothetical you) are also engage in activities like changing advertising flyers and letterhead. Does that make it clearer?

Lets get this straight. You wanted to know what else graphic designers do besides changing company logos, I gave you a few examples, now your trying to say that all the examples I gave you are related to changing a company logo. Is that it? If not then no, It does not make it any clearer.

I don't have a better idea, you said I was wrong and I'm trying to get an explanation.`


Automatically Appended Next Post:
It's clear you are just trying to get into a fight so I'm giving up. Have a nice day.

wtf just happened?

I play harmonica on street corners about once a week. Some nights I make $2.50 for three hours of playing. One time I made $57 in an hour. I love it regardless, have made lots of awesome contacts, have been offered paid gigs consequently and will keep doing it til I get paid more for it I ain't complaining.

Edit: Hell, for added effect I'm eating ramen as I type and I'm homeless again, yet strangely I wouldn't have it any other way <3

daedalus wrote:I think a large amount of the problem is that you are accusing the people offering sub-quality work of diminishing your overall profitability instead of the companies buying that sub-quality work. You're the Montgomery Ward manager standing around the empty store wondering why everyone is buying that crappy merchandise from that newfangled "Wal-Mart" store across the road. In this day and age, there is "Quality" and then there is "Good Enough". The trend is to side with "Good Enough". This is why companies lease hardware instead of buying it. They're technically getting a worse deal, but it suits them more at the time.

It is a worse deal? I don't understand. You get less for less, lower quality for lower prices. You are buying 3 shovels for the price of one, 5 drills for the price of one.

Don't get me wrong, sometimes you need quality from a product. That in no way holds true for every product ever made. I simply have no need for 10$ a roll designer toilet-paper.

I understand your frustration though; this isn't just limited to the "Creative" professions. A friend of mine got a job about a year ago as a programmer. He has a four year degree, and due to the oversaturation of the market from all of the in-and-out "bad" schools that give you some sort of cert/degree in weeks, he gets paid about what a manager at McDonald's would make. Insert additional competition from outsourcing/visas from people that have never written code, only studied theory, and you've got an industry rotting from the inside out.

Quality is dead; ours is the age of the lowest bidder.

Quality is NOT dead. If you think that is the case, seriously, take some time to look into the current world of graphic design. You're completely wrong.

It may be cheaper to get the best designers, but I seriously doubt that is true. If anything, there is the same gap that has always existed in the art/design field.

If your industry and others are rotting out, there is serious opportunity available to you. There is no need to wallow in self pity. Work that scale to your advantage, raise your value through any means possible. Kind of funny that I am suggesting that, as I it could be the main reason that so many companies are hiring cheaper workers in the first place. The rot is your opportunity to make a decent living. I have no tears for the guy that went into one of the most saturated job-markets to ever hit the face of the planet. That applies to both graphic design and programming.

If you can't pay your college loans off, there is a problem and you should try to find better work. If you can't afford a new car, big screen TV, and gaming PC... Boo. Freaking. Hoo.

Keep in mind that many companies prefer to hire people with 'lesser' degrees, for the fact that they can save money while training them on the job. No one cares that you studied 2 years of general education in college, before getting into what is necessary for your field. If a company can hire someone with less background, then train them at a low cost, and avoid having to deal with the snobbery of many 4-year graduates; more power to them. I have no problem recognizing that some degrees are bunk nonsense, offering little more to the student, while costing more and taking more time. You may think that you got more out of it, but if an employer disagrees by no hiring you, it would appear that you are wrong.

Cost less, do more. That is the world we are living in. There are problems with it, no doubt, but I do not think it is as much of a problem as you suggest. You can get those 'fake' degrees just as easy as the next person, get a job, then get further training from the company that hired you.

Ahh.... youth.

I wanted to draw comics when i was 14. Or get into Graphic Design or something. But then i actually looked into the industry, the golden age has flown. Welcome to the real world. (I joined the Green Berets instead and i got to stab people, it was also pretty cool)

Im a decent designer, im good with Photoshop and Coral Draw, i go great caricatures (i musta done maybe.. 100 for people leaving the military) ive done wedding invitations and invites for the lads three times, several Posters for corps events, and the label design for a beer bottle (It was the company of a friend of a Sergeant i worked for) I also got a picture of me holding one of my posters in the Sunday papers right next to the Prime Ministers speech!

All i ever asked for was "a crate or something"

I usually got a nice bottle of spirits, or 24 cans, some guys just slipped me a twenty. I got 50 quid off one of the generous guys cos i saved him so much money with the wedding invites and menus...

Point is, Graphic Design aint hard. Id say one if every ten people can draw or design pretty well.

Your in a minority if you can make a living off it these days when everyman an his dog has a scanner, some good software and a laser printer.

If you asked a mate of mine for 500$ for designing him a logo or something, and he told me about it, id call you a greedy douchebag and offer to do it for a case of real ale.

Get over your rage, have a shave and buy a suit, and then go get a normal job and do some graphic design in your spare time.

mattyrm wrote:Ahh.... youth.

I wanted to draw comics when i was 14. Or get into Graphic Design or something. But then i actually looked into the industry, the golden age has flown. Welcome to the real world. (I joined the Green Berets instead and i got to stab people, it was also pretty cool)

Im a decent designer, im good with Photoshop and Coral Draw, i go great caricatures (i musta done maybe.. 100 for people leaving the military) ive done wedding invitations and invites for the lads three times, several Posters for corps events, and the label design for a beer bottle (It was the company of a friend of a Sergeant i worked for) I also got a picture of me holding one of my posters in the Sunday papers right next to the Prime Ministers speech!

All i ever asked for was "a crate or something"

I usually got a nice bottle of spirits, or 24 cans, some guys just slipped me a twenty. I got 50 quid off one of the generous guys cos i saved him so much money with the wedding invites and menus...

Point is, Graphic Design aint hard. Id say one if every ten people can draw or design pretty well.

Your in a minority if you can make a living off it these days when everyman an his dog has a scanner, some good software and a laser printer.

If you asked a mate of mine for 500$ for designing him a logo or something, and he told me about it, id call you a greedy douchebag and offer to do it for a case of real ale.

Get over your rage, have a shave and buy a suit, and then go get a normal job and do some graphic design in your spare time.

Do I smell jealousy or are are you really that dumb to come to those conclusions by some form of logic.

Cause while were insulting other people careers the only reason I can see for someone to enter the military and give up all your time for the unbelievaby gak wage you get is if you are indeed, dumb.

Just so no one thinks I've started this argument than abandoned it...

It might be true that I came down a little hard on this particular contest, but it is obvious from the comments of other professionals that the glut of people willing to work for little money has taken a toll on the photography and graphic design professions.

What I'm getting at, I guess, is that if you like doing it, insist on a decent wage for your work so you can keep doing it, and others can keep doing it, and learn how to explain to your clients the benefits of hiring an experienced and passionate professional.

It's better to have one well paying job with a great client than 20 jobs for dense people who ask you to do it over and over for no additional money. If this attitude can spread throughout the design world it will make a big difference.

For you pros (aspiring pros especially) out there, I seriously recommend John Harrington's 'Best Business Practices for Photographers 2nd Edition.' It's not about how to take pictures, its about how to run a creative business and certainly applies to design.

Here's hoping we all don't end up bragging about how we like to stab people...

How am i insulting other peoples careers? Im merely pointing out its hard to be successful doing Graphics full time and i recommend doing what i did. i.e the less risky approach of getting a normal job and then doing graphics as a part time thing, maybe you can one day do it full time when you have some success.

My good mate is the head of design for the British Olympic team, plush office in the velodrome, seems a decent job.

But the point of this conversation is simply that it is an extremely diffcult job to be successful at in 2010. My mate is 38 and started way back when, he finally landed the good job after building up a huge portfolio and being pretty skint for 15 years and we have spoke about it alot, the point of it all is that the golden age for the profession has now passed and many many people are leaving university with degrees in Graphic Design, are skint for a bit and then out of desperation take whatever comes along and they end up working in a bank.

Seeing as you once again started insulting me in your first sentence however i shall not bother retorting further and i will reply in kind, then you can cry to the mods like you always do even though you started it.

So why would i be jelous? I had the great experience of being in an elite fighting unit for most of my career and travelling all over the globe on operations and leaving with great life experience and no lasting injuries. I am witty, handsome, and have a great social life.

You however are a miserable whingebag with the intestinal fortitude of an 8 year old girl, you are about as much fun to talk to as a sack of cabbages, you are pasty, balding and you seem to drool alot.

Thats us about even yeah?

mattyrm wrote:How am i insulting other peoples careers? Im merely pointing out its hard to be successful doing Graphics full time and i recommend doing what i did. i.e the less risky approach of getting a normal job and then doing graphics as a part time thing, maybe you can one day do it full time when you have some success.

My good mate is the head of design for the British Olympic team, plush office in the velodrome, seems a decent job.

But the point of this conversation is simply that it is an extremely diffcult job to be successful at in 2010. My mate is 38 and started way back when, he finally landed the good job after building up a huge portfolio and being pretty skint for 15 years and we have spoke about it alot, the point of it all is that the golden age for the profession has now passed and many many people are leaving university with degrees in Graphic Design, are skint for a bit and then out of desperation take whatever comes along and they end up working in a bank.

Seeing as you once again started insulting me in your first sentence however i shall not bother retorting further and i will reply in kind, then you can cry to the mods like you always do even though you started it.

So why would i be jelous? I had the great experience of being in an elite fighting unit for most of my career and travelling all over the globe on operations and leaving with great life experience and no lasting injuries. I am witty, handsome, and have a great social life.

You however are a miserable whingebag with the intestinal fortitude of an 8 year old girl, you are about as much fun to talk to as a sack of cabbages, you are pasty, balding and you seem to drool alot.

Thats us about even yeah?

ooh looks like we hit a nerve. He's witty, he's handsome and he loves to stab people. What a well rounded individual we have here. fething pinacle of society.

mattyrm wrote:I joined the Green Berets instead and i got to stab people, it was also pretty cool

Damn you and your awesome job!

Sigh....

WW. this is why you dont get me at all, You dont understand that im not being serious, of course nobody "loves" to stab people, and im pretty sure 99% of people get it. You seem convinced im a very nasty man and thats just not the case..

Well... except that last one.

You're insulting other people's work by stating that you could do it with your eyes closed, for a case of beer, in between trips to the killing fields.

Everyone I know with real military experience never brags about it, or even likes to talk about it, but they do all brag about how good looking they are...

mattyrm wrote:Sigh....

WW. this is why you dont get me at all, You dont understand that im not being serious, of course nobody "loves" to stab people, and im pretty sure 99% of people get it. You seem convinced im a very nasty man and thats just not the case..

Well... except that last one.

No no no, don't dismiss it as trivial. I''m sure you do love it. That and al of what makes up your perfect life. Which it of course is? It's perfect right? That's why me digging at your career has got you so riled up, because your life is so perfect. Call me bald all you want I couldn't give a gak, I have more self deprecating jokes about my lack of hair than you could dream of. I fairly certain who the insecure one is here.

rdlb wrote:You're insulting other people's work by stating that you could do it with your eyes closed, for a case of beer, in between trips to the killing fields.

Everyone I know with real military experience never brags about it, or even likes to talk about it, but they do all brag about how good looking they are...

I didnt mean that i could do it with my eyes closed, apologies if you thought so.

All i meant was that surely everyone who can draw or sing wants to do that for a living right? I mean, its common sense, but you might starve to death trying, so get a normal job and then do it in your spare time. I was just extolling the virtues of the safe option, cos its a big gamble to try and feed yourself with your pen. You know what i mean? If i tried to charge £100 for my caricatures when people wanted them for leaving gifts, i know they wouldnt want them! It just seems like.. nice pictures are cool and all, but people really arent willing to pay that much for them.

rdlb wrote:You're insulting other people's work by stating that you could do it with your eyes closed, for a case of beer, in between trips to the killing fields.

In all fairness, if he actually could do that it would be more of a reflection on the others than of himself.

rdlb wrote:Everyone I know with real military experience never brags about it, or even likes to talk about it, but they do all brag about how good looking they are...

Really? I know a lot of guys that like to talk about their service as they enjoy their profession. Sure some don't, but some do so I am not sure what the point of this sentence is, unless you are questioning whether Mattyrm is actually in the military.

mattyrm wrote:

rdlb wrote:You're insulting other people's work by stating that you could do it with your eyes closed, for a case of beer, in between trips to the killing fields.

Everyone I know with real military experience never brags about it, or even likes to talk about it, but they do all brag about how good looking they are...

I didnt mean that i could do it with my eyes closed, apologies if you thought so.

All i meant was that surely everyone who can draw or sing wants to do that for a living right? I mean, its common sense, but you might starve to death trying, so get a normal job and then do it in your spare time. I was just extolling the virtues of the safe option, cos its a big gamble to try and feed yourself with your pen. You know what i mean? If i tried to charge £100 for my caricatures when people wanted them for leaving gifts, i know they wouldnt want them! It just seems like.. nice pictures are cool and all, but people really arent willing to pay that much for them.

Difference between drawing and singing for a living is one takes a lot of luck, the other takes a lot of hard work. What your suggesting is that you take the easy option and put up with some shyte job you don't like all your life because you never had the attitude of believing in yourself. Take a job instead which will hire you on the basis you can jump a few hoops and live in a room full of men for months on end. Screw your "advice".

One thing that bugs me about being a designer, is after 20 years I still don't know what to charge for my services. One rate is too high for one client, and makes the other think I'm offering too low and will end up being more unprofessional or amaturish. Sometimes a client will tell you their budget, other times it's a guessing game. I took the easy way out and now I'm an in house designer for a vacation company now. I would probably make more at a design firm, but all of the firms I worked for thought it was fun to just hire you for 3 months and then lay you off when it's time to start giving you benefits.

Necros wrote:One thing that bugs me about being a designer, is after 20 years I still don't know what to charge for my services. One rate is too high for one client, and makes the other think I'm offering too low and will end up being more unprofessional or amaturish. Sometimes a client will tell you their budget, other times it's a guessing game. I took the easy way out and now I'm an in house designer for a vacation company now. I would probably make more at a design firm, but all of the firms I worked for thought it was fun to just hire you for 3 months and then lay you off when it's time to start giving you benefits.

I have never understood why the US has now laws on how employers dismiss people. In the UK if they pulled that they'd never get away with it.

BearersOfSalvation wrote:

SmackCakes wrote:The difference is probably going to be quality of workmanship. Unfortunately some people have no eye for quality and no taste either, probably not as many as 99% of people, but definitely some (like pretty much all producers), and there is no accounting for them.

The post I was originally responding to stated that you would need to go to design school and have experience as a graphic designer to tell the difference between the Real Designer's logo and one that some Fake Designer made. I doubt that more than 1% of the population went to school for and worked as professional designers, so the percent that would not be able to tell the difference according to what MajorTom said would be 99% or more. If his statement was true (I don't think it is), then there really would be no point in hiring a Real Designer, as something from a Fake Designer would be indistinguishable from the real product for virtually everyone who sees it, and much cheaper.

If the 'Real Whatever''s work can only be distinguished from the 'Fake Whatever''s work by someone who's gone to school for and worked as 'whatever', then the only reason to pay more for the Real Whatever's work is to impress other Real Whatevers, which most people don't care about.

That's a fair point. It is certainly true that a portion of any artists work will probably only be fully appreciated by other artists. Though I think even non artists will still appreciate things on the level that they work well and never give trouble.

In some cases it is true that less than 1% of people (even trained designers) could spot the difference... At least not at first glance. But that doesn't mean there is no difference, it might take time for the cracks to develop. You might discover that your Logo won't print correctly because it is not comparable with CYMK, so you always end up with curious lines in your gradients, or that it never seems to look right in black and white, or on certain screens, or can't be discerned at small scales or at low bitrate. You might discover that when you try to put your logo onto a different colored background you end up with nasty artifacting around all the edges. Your logo might look fine on screen, but try putting it on the side of a van, or a bill board, or even on something small like the side of a pen... Did the designer create clipping paths for your logo? Is there a vector based version stored anywhere? If not then you might need to pay someone to redraw it. Logos need to be very robust, because literally no one knows where they might eventually end up. There are a myriad of problems that could arise with a logo. Someone who is not properly experienced/qualified could easily overlook even well known problems that will certainly arise.

Chibi Bodge-Batte wrote:never mind SmackCakes, could be worse. You could be a doctor and have people bugging you off duty to look at various body parts.

While that could certainly put you off your lunch, I feel doctors still have it easier... All they are really expected to do is say "Hmmmm... looks like herpes" and that is their job done in 5 seconds. It isn't hours of delicate work like painting a picture. But like MajorTom said a lot of people don't seem realize how much work is involved. I think artists more than any other profession get disrespected and taken for granted. No one expects a brick layer to build a house in half a day. No one goes up to a musician with a piece of paper and says "hey could you just quickly write a song for me". No one goes to a mechanic and says that they want him to make their car fly. And no one hires a composer to write music for their project, and then literally just has them write down notes as dictated by someone who knows nothing about music, ignoring any and all advice on musical theory and arrangement.

Yet with artists and designers, people frequently seem to expect that you should be able to create masterpieces, in impossible times, for next to no money. Whilst simultaneously preventing you from doing anything decent by consonantly interfering and insisting that "I want this blue, and those over here, and that bigger, and can you make that guy look like he has diabetes?¿? " Despite the fact that they have zero understanding or composition or colour theory or storytelling through pictures.

And then when you tell them you can't deliver the impossible, or you give it your best shot to entertain their stupid demands, but it inevitably ends up looking awful... they turn round and say something like "Meh I knew I should have hired someone else, you're not a real artist".

rdlb wrote:http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/30/316945.page

That post is an outrageous exploitation of young people with limited business acumen and enthusiasm to see their designs used. Tunnel Rat should have gotten paid a lot more for his graphic design work.

Of course its common for companies to do this kind of thing for designs and photography because it saves them a ton of money. But no one can survive on the terrible income paid by these kinds of jobs. And they are jobs.

If you want to work as a graphic artist then demand a wage you can survive on. If you need graphic design you should hire a designer after looking over their portfolio, not hold a contest to pay bottom dollar for someones hard work under the guise of a contest.

whatwhat wrote:Take a job instead which will hire you on the basis you can jump a few hoops and live in a room full of men for months on end. Screw your "advice".

You really do have absolutely no idea what a professional soldier does for a living mate. It can be an extremely rewarding, satisfying and diverse job. Ive provided security for agencies giving out staionary at girls schools in Kabul, provided medical aid to kids, shot and blew stuff up, done intel work sat in an office working on psyops stuff, it really is a tad more than jumping hoops and living with men.

Its ok to hate the military, but seriously, just.. you know. Say something sensible. I can tell your upset though, so just take it to PM and we can stop hijacking this blokes thread.

mattyrm wrote:

whatwhat wrote:Take a job instead which will hire you on the basis you can jump a few hoops and live in a room full of men for months on end. Screw your "advice".

You really do have absolutely no idea what a professional soldier does for a living mate. It can be an extremely rewarding, satisfying and diverse job. Ive provided security for agencies giving out staionary at girls schools in Kabul, provided medical aid to kids, shot and blew stuff up, done intel work sat in an office working on psyops stuff, it really is a tad more than jumping hoops and living with men.

Its ok to hate the military, but seriously, just.. you know. Say something sensible. I can tell your upset though, so just take it to PM and we can stop hijacking this blokes thread.

Yeh well as soon as you get all that gak off your chest mattyrm, about how fullfilled you are and all maybe you will stop hijacking this blokes thread.

Stop hijacking this blokes thread >.>

mattyrm wrote:Im a decent designer, im good with Photoshop and Coral Draw, i go great caricatures (i musta done maybe.. 100 for people leaving the military) ive done wedding invitations and invites for the lads three times, several Posters for corps events, and the label design for a beer bottle (It was the company of a friend of a Sergeant i worked for) I also got a picture of me holding one of my posters in the Sunday papers right next to the Prime Ministers speech!

Point is, Graphic Design aint hard. Id say one if every ten people can draw or design pretty well.

Note that this like saying that because I used to be a hunter and a good shot, I'd be a decent Green Beret. Like right now.

I'd never say that because a) I'm too old, and b) I recognize that it's a complicated job that requires a lot of training beyond squeezing a trigger.

mattyrm wrote:...many many people are leaving university with degrees in Graphic Design, are skint for a bit and then out of desperation take whatever comes along and they end up working in a bank.

LOL. This bit is my cousin from England.

Necros wrote:One thing that bugs me about being a designer, is after 20 years I still don't know what to charge for my services. One rate is too high for one client, and makes the other think I'm offering too low and will end up being more unprofessional or amaturish. Sometimes a client will tell you their budget, other times it's a guessing game. I took the easy way out and now I'm an in house designer for a vacation company now. I would probably make more at a design firm, but all of the firms I worked for thought it was fun to just hire you for 3 months and then lay you off when it's time to start giving you benefits.

That is much the same in any independent profession. Even at a large scale company there will be people that come up with bids on different jobs. The whole process is very much an art in itself, given that you'll need to have a decent amount of knowledge concerning sales. You need to sell yourself; make yourself the most important part of a bid. Do not let a client grab your balls and drag you around through their nonsense. Let them speak, size them up, and deliver your sales pitch. If one person thinks it is too low while another thinks your bid is too high; both of them are probably wrong. At that point at least you have a solid middle ground, because they are probably both wrong, leaving you comfortable in being relatively right.

Be flexible, just keep in mind that you are working with people, and we are not always rational. You are not always rational either, just so I've made my inclusion entirely clear. Both you and your clients can be wrong, but it doesn't matter if you get paid what you NEED, while your clients get what they like. Much of the time you have to work through a bunch of absolute crap to get a point across, and in many situations dropping a job for those reasons is not a bad idea. Don't work for bossy mcdumbass, work for someone else.

Finding good clients is as important as finishing the jobs, simply for the fact that a bad client will try their hardest to confuse and stifle completion. There are quite a few clients that excel at taking any rationality from a job. Make it as clear as you can that they are being charged for that time, and if you do not trust them to pay you, STOP WORKING FOR THEM. DO IT NOW.

Good luck, though.

SmackCakes wrote:Yet with artists and designers, people frequently seem to expect that you should be able to create masterpieces, in impossible times, for next to no money. Whilst simultaneously preventing you from doing anything decent by consonantly interfering and insisting that "I want this blue, and those over here, and that bigger, and can you make that guy look like he has diabetes?¿? " Despite the fact that they have zero understanding or composition or colour theory or storytelling through pictures.

And then when you tell them you can't deliver the impossible, or you give it your best shot to entertain their stupid demands, but it inevitably ends up looking awful... they turn round and say something like "Meh I knew I should have hired someone else, you're not a real artist".

Given enough experience you can spot those clients in five questions or less. All in all it doesn't matter as long as you get paid. If you open yourself to accepting stupid demands from bossy clients, you'll be the one to pay the price. It may be difficult given the general lack of work artists and graphic designers face, but it is not beyond reason to be discerning in the jobs you take on.

Oh, your response to clients that spew nonsense like you stated at the end of the post, should be something along the lines of: "I knew you werent a paying customer, if only I had listened to my instinct."

Spot those clients before they can screw you, because there are more than enough that are willing to do so.

Frazzled wrote:

rdlb wrote:http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/30/316945.page

That post is an outrageous exploitation of young people with limited business acumen and enthusiasm to see their designs used. Tunnel Rat should have gotten paid a lot more for his graphic design work.

Of course its common for companies to do this kind of thing for designs and photography because it saves them a ton of money. But no one can survive on the terrible income paid by these kinds of jobs. And they are jobs.

If you want to work as a graphic artist then demand a wage you can survive on. If you need graphic design you should hire a designer after looking over their portfolio, not hold a contest to pay bottom dollar for someones hard work under the guise of a contest.

Yeah!! A Mod and a troll all in one!!

asmith wrote:

Just the opinion of lowly engineer.

Perhaps if the engineers produced a decent product that sold itself on the merits better, the execs wouln't try to boost sales by improving the packaging...

BTW, I'm also assuming you play your games, using folded peices of cardboard with "space marine with bolter" written on it, and don't mind your rulebook being printed in off a dot matrix printer in 8 point times new roman, with ascii diagrams, and no fluff...

Wrexasaur wrote:Given enough experience you can spot those clients in five questions or less. All in all it doesn't matter as long as you get paid. If you open yourself to accepting stupid demands from bossy clients, you'll be the one to pay the price. It may be difficult given the general lack of work artists and graphic designers face, but it is not beyond reason to be discerning in the jobs you take on.

Oh, your response to clients that spew nonsense like you stated at the end of the post, should be something along the lines of: "I knew you werent a paying customer, if only I had listened to my instinct."

Spot those clients before they can screw you, because there are more than enough that are willing to do so.

Ahhh indeed. I read a great article a few years ago called 'clients or grinders' Link which described these people to a tea. Nowadays I usually just quote a daily rate that I'm comfortable with, and then double it. That's usually enough to filter out time wasters (Though I like to think money well spent for serious clients). But that doesn't change people's attitudes in general.

whatwhat wrote:

mattyrm wrote:

whatwhat wrote:Take a job instead which will hire you on the basis you can jump a few hoops and live in a room full of men for months on end. Screw your "advice".

You really do have absolutely no idea what a professional soldier does for a living mate. It can be an extremely rewarding, satisfying and diverse job. Ive provided security for agencies giving out staionary at girls schools in Kabul, provided medical aid to kids, shot and blew stuff up, done intel work sat in an office working on psyops stuff, it really is a tad more than jumping hoops and living with men.

Its ok to hate the military, but seriously, just.. you know. Say something sensible. I can tell your upset though, so just take it to PM and we can stop hijacking this blokes thread.

Yeh well as soon as you get all that gak off your chest mattyrm, about how fullfilled you are and all maybe you will stop hijacking this blokes thread.

Pretty funny, since that is what you have done for the last page and a half; spouting off you elitist graphic design crap like you know everything.

asmith wrote:My employer spent literally millions getting a new corporate image, new logos, rebranding etc. They had a big ceremony rolling it out and the net result, nothing. Share prices remained unchanged, no change in new business, nothing. Meanwhile there were a hundred better things the money could of been spent on to really improve the business.

In my opinion for most businesses things like changing the logo are basically an ego stroking exercise for executives who want to give their opinions on things.

My take on this is slightly different. I work in IT supporting several fortune 500 companies. One of them, which shall remain nameless, is getting reamed hard by the recession - the majority of their work is in real estate, and they made a lot of poor decisions (this poor decision making is across the board, by the way). In addition to mass layoffs they decided to do.. what else! A rebranding. A few weeks later they now have a new logo, and all the same problems they had before the new logo.

I think it's got less to do with ego stroking (at least in this specific case) and more to do with, when confronted by enormous problems you cannot solve, you tend to create and solve a simple one.

Ironhide wrote:

whatwhat wrote:

mattyrm wrote:

whatwhat wrote:Take a job instead which will hire you on the basis you can jump a few hoops and live in a room full of men for months on end. Screw your "advice".

You really do have absolutely no idea what a professional soldier does for a living mate. It can be an extremely rewarding, satisfying and diverse job. Ive provided security for agencies giving out staionary at girls schools in Kabul, provided medical aid to kids, shot and blew stuff up, done intel work sat in an office working on psyops stuff, it really is a tad more than jumping hoops and living with men.

Its ok to hate the military, but seriously, just.. you know. Say something sensible. I can tell your upset though, so just take it to PM and we can stop hijacking this blokes thread.

Yeh well as soon as you get all that gak off your chest mattyrm, about how fullfilled you are and all maybe you will stop hijacking this blokes thread.

Pretty funny, since that is what you have done for the last page and a half; spouting off you elitist graphic design crap like you know everything.

No it's funny because as far as I see it it was mattyrm who was saying there was nothing to know in graphic design, and 1 in every ten people can do the job. Me I would openly admit I don't know everything about graphic design. I'm just defending it against some muppet who thinks it's a not a "normal" job, more than likely fueled by his inability to do it himself. In fact the last page and a half as you put it has been more about matyrm mocking my appearance and character based on my posts on this forum and a picture in the 'show yourself' thread like a fricking twelve year old.

If you actually read I'm trying to support others wanting to enter graphic design against someone who is suggesting they give it up as it's a pipe dream job and you'll end up working in a bank. What a load of gak.

..I'm not really sure if this thread has any future at all here, it certainly doesn't on its current heading, but as the optimist hat is still on today we'll leave it open for a short while and see if it, and some of the posters, can redeem themselves.

To that end, it would be helpful if posters could maybe attempt to phrase given criticism of another posters position in a manner not designed to be rude or aggressive.

Chibi Bodge-Batte wrote:You could be a doctor and have people bugging you off duty to look at various body parts.

Does that make me a doctor? Seriously though, regardless of what your "profession" is, does it really matter? Fact is, we do what we need to survive. If you walked by a garage sale and saw a $200 TV in working condition, playing in front of you and it was marked $1, who wouldn't buy that to resell if not keep it for themselves? If you clean a dirty spot off one corner then you just became a "refurbisher!" With the way the economy is going it's getting harder and harder to count on any one thing, and diversity of skills is going to see people through a lot better than an isolated skill set. That aside, I have friends who are succesful doing only graphic design and I know others who tried and flopped. It's like any other field, some people work out and others don't for X, Y and Z reason.

reds8n wrote:but as the optimist hat is still on today

Lanceradvanced wrote:

asmith wrote:

Just the opinion of lowly engineer.

Perhaps if the engineers produced a decent product that sold itself on the merits better, the execs wouln't try to boost sales by improving the packaging...

BTW, I'm also assuming you play your games, using folded peices of cardboard with "space marine with bolter" written on it, and don't mind your rulebook being printed in off a dot matrix printer in 8 point times new roman, with ascii diagrams, and no fluff...

That was my whole point. For the most part designs do sell themselves on the merits and any large chunks of money that get spent on pretty packaging are not worth it. Hence my example. I'm sure your realize what you just said is nonsensical on the face of it, because all GW makes is pretty packaging. It is an example of an area where designers are required and where there niche is. Just because designers are good at specific tasks like laying out a fancy rulebook doesn't mean that when they do a task that anyone can do, like make a logo for an online contest that they are getting ripped off and should be paid a huge fee for it.

If you have a BFA or only a BA but definitely a MFA. Never get tricked into doing work for anything less than 12 boxes of Girl Scout Cookies.

Cool Guys who sit at home is looking for a new Logo!!!!!!

Your Design can be seen by 300+ people a week.

Send us your designs at CoolGuysWhoSitatHome@gmail.com

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