Before anyone posts another 40k vs Anything, I figured it probably wouldn't be a bad idea to post the benchmark of what they are up against. It will save huge amounts of rehashing the same crap over and over in different posts. A quick caveat here. There are no quantifiable statistics in the 40k universe other than general size guidelines for their vehicles. Most people taking the side of GW's writers point to the Black Library as a source and back calculate power levels from these. Unfortunately, the Black Library books are horribly inconsistent in this respect... I'll address this in a few of the below sections:
I'll start with a quick summary of why the Imperium of Man (IoM) is pretty much out of the league of most sci-fi universes... starting with the most obvious problems that contenders have to face:
Manpower The IoM is pretty much accepted to have unlimited manpower, because millions of worlds equals unlimited manpower. Ergo, the Imperial Guard is capable of drawing on this unlimited manpower making their numbers unlimited as well. Thanks to the Forgeworld System, agri-worlds and Warp Travel, the Imperial Guard's unlimited recruits are also supplied with equipment and food. While one might argue that this is ridiculous and that the logistics of such a system are unworkable - but rest assured - while I agree that this assumption is stupid, taking this line is ultimately futile. Just treat something as mundane as logistics as being no match for the technology of the 41st millennium, unreliability of Warp travel be damned! (Pun intended).
Firepower Ship output is in the TT range. (That's 10^6 Megatons). Lance output has been calculated at 0.1 SOL/s output based on descriptions of planetary scarification from the Black Library books. (That's 10% of the Sun's entire output.) Arguing that fusion based plasma reactors can't reach that level of output is futile... In the grim darkness of the far future, apparently the laws of conservation of energy don't apply to super high technology. To win vs. the Imperial navy, equal or greater numbers are required and the challengers have to at least be on parity with their firepower or outright outgun them. I'm going to ignore the 1 000 000 SOL number for void shields though... this one has to be a mistake, as smashing a ship with a million sun shield with piddly 0.1SOL shots is never going to destroy the ship. I'll just say that void shields can absorb a finite number of ordinance hits before being overloaded. Going with the Battlefleet Gothic ruleset, I'm expecting this to be in the neighborhood in the low-mid 10's (20-30). Needless to say, fighting them with any weapons rated less than 0.01SOL would be pointless. Also, despite the well recorded unreliability of warp travel, be assured that you WILL be fighting a significant portion of navy if you do pick a fight with them - anywhere from thousands of ships to a few dozen, if taken by surprise!
On the ground, you have the Titan Legions to contend with. These guys are packing escort cruiser sized weapons on a huge walker frame. They are also equipped with void shields. Even if these blokes aren't allowed in the fictional match-up, the Imperial Guard has pretty much limitless numbers, and superheavies, which are just those same giant guns on an unshielded tank chassis.
Space Marines Even if having unlimited numbers of guys, tanks, supertanks, giant robots and SOL rated capital ships, the IoM has space marines. Thanks to the Black Library and other GW publications, these guys are genetically engineered, supremely trained one man armies, wearing an armored suit made of tank plating and armed with a miniaturized rocket cannon. Thanks to the writers, unless you are able to one-shot a Marine, you are going to die against his counter-attack, as their enhancements allow them to ignore anything but a fatal wound. That's if you get past his armor. As a spec-ops type outfit, expect that they'll rapid response any incursion against the IoM.
So, weapons at the upper scale of most fictional sci-fi worlds, with defenses to match - albeit with levels backed up by rubbish writing. Many sci-fi universes have stepped up... Star Fleet, the Stargate Universe, the Zentraedi (Macross). All have been found wanting. To sum up: If you can't win the space war, don't step up. To win the space war, you have to out gun them. (Outnumbering helps too, but not if you can't damage the IoM.)
-Aside- Please no Chuck Norris or Goku replies please. I'm aware that either could solo a Systems Fleet, if not more.
The other thing that needs to be taken into account is the IoM's willingness to simply destroy an entire planet if it considered lost.
Possibly a general such as Ender, commanding a fleet armed with the DR Device could do a fethton of damage (assuming Void Shields didnt negate the Little Doctors), but ultimately the IoM would survive, and either Ender would burn out catastrophically trying to general the whole war single handedly, or the IoM's counter attack would utterly destroy the attackers.
Possibly whatever the "visitors" were in Roadside Picnic? Though not enough is know about them to properly decide, assuming the Picnic theory is correct, (All the stuff they left was just rubbish they dropped) their technology is possibly on a level with stuff from 40k
del'Vhar wrote:The other thing that needs to be taken into account is the IoM's willingness to simply destroy an entire planet if it considered lost.
Possibly a general such as Ender, commanding a fleet armed with the DR Device could do a fethton of damage (assuming Void Shields didnt negate the Little Doctors), but ultimately the IoM would survive, and either Ender would burn out catastrophically trying to general the whole war single handedly, or the IoM's counter attack would utterly destroy the attackers.
Possibly whatever the "visitors" were in Roadside Picnic? Though not enough is know about them to properly decide, assuming the Picnic theory is correct, (All the stuff they left was just rubbish they dropped) their technology is possibly on a level with stuff from 40k
I dunno, assuming the Little Doctors ignore void shields, they're still only able to kill a single ship at a time. Ships in 40k typically remain thousands of kilometers apart making the chance of a fleet-killing chain reaction pretty unlikely. Furthermore, the Enderverse ships seem to need to get in pretty close to be able to use the weapon and it's not likely they'd survive long enough to get in range.
My Ender knowledge is a bit rusty, haven't read it in years, so that might not be the case.
I was thinking in terms of planet kill for the Little Doctors as well.
But yes, the fighters that used them in Ender's Game did seem short range, so losses would be extreme, even with Ender in command.
I wonder how the Daleks would do, assuming they were at the height of their power (ability to teleport planets across the galaxy/time travel etc.)
And if Replicators existed in the 40k universe they would likely be nigh unstoppable, if they ever managed to assimilate Tau tech or Titans it would probably be game over for the IoM
del'Vhar wrote:I was thinking in terms of planet kill for the Little Doctors as well.
But yes, the fighters that used them in Ender's Game did seem short range, so losses would be extreme, even with Ender in command.
Meh, the planet obliterating aspect of the Little Doctors wouldn't be all that bad, considering the Imperium is already willing to sacrifice planets to combat threats. Of course, they wouldn't be happy about losing planets, but it's not like they'd capitulate in fear of this particular brand of doomsday weapon. Plus the losses getting those ships into range is going to be pretty high, considering most imperial planets have defense fleets and defensive installations.
del'Vhar wrote:
And if Replicators existed in the 40k universe they would likely be nigh unstoppable, if they ever managed to assimilate Tau tech or Titans it would probably be game over for the IoM
I'm assuming these are the stargate replicators. If so, owned. There are plenty of weapons in 40k that would completely destroy any replicator through brute force.
For Dr Device, since the very small size of the vessels in the Enderverse would make them mostly invisible, they would feasably be able to 'stealth kill' a lot of IoM stuff... that said, with there being only 1 actual world fighting in ender's verse, they would never have enough ships to do the job, and warp travel is much faster than ender travel.
You need an equally big universe to compete with the very large IoM universe... Star Wars with the fully unified empire has the size, but lacks shear killing power since the turbolaser is pathetic by IoM lance standard. Though, if ramming at lightspeed was feasable then small frigates with clone soldiers would WTFPWN the IoM.
You need an equally big universe to compete with the very large IoM universe... Star Wars with the fully unified empire has the size, but lacks shear killing power since the turbolaser is pathetic by IoM lance standard. Though, if ramming at lightspeed was feasable then small frigates with clone soldiers would WTFPWN the IoM.
You know, I would love to see a jedi vs librarian match.
Jedi: You don't look tough, i'm going to force crush your face.
You need an equally big universe to compete with the very large IoM universe... Star Wars with the fully unified empire has the size, but lacks shear killing power since the turbolaser is pathetic by IoM lance standard. Though, if ramming at lightspeed was feasable then small frigates with clone soldiers would WTFPWN the IoM.
You know, I would love to see a jedi vs librarian match.
Jedi: You don't look tough, i'm going to force crush your face.
Only thing that Jumps at me is Demi-Fiend from Shin Megami Tensei. The Warp would be his bitch, pretty much, what with the ability to destroy entire realities (assuming it's the True Demon Demi-fiend we're using here).
Seraph (from the same over-arching franchise as Demi-fiend) would be similar, but even more powerful, what with being God (but not really... but really... but AAAAAAAGH!) and all.
Alucard from Hellsing would be pretty interesting. He's near invulnerable, and every man that the Imperium threw at him would only make him stronger.
40k vs anything...Hm, that's not a really tough question, seeing as the IoM is already going down the drain from constant attacks from all kinds of foes, and this in their own universe...
Furthermore, all their manpower, ships and even SM's are nothing, seeing as all this stuff is rarely united in a fight, so any enemy with enough brains and capability of applying a "Divide and Conquer" strategy could be able to do the job...
del'Vhar wrote:And if Replicators existed in the 40k universe they would likely be nigh unstoppable, if they ever managed to assimilate Tau tech or Titans it would probably be game over for the IoM
Yes, if i were to give my vote to a force outside the 40k universe, it would definitely go to the replicators
Good luck "dividing and conquering" a million worlds. Each one protected by at least something. When the IoM catches wind of what anyone is doing, you will find yourself in a deep pile of .
as the IoM is already going down the drain from constant attacks from all kinds of foes, and this in their own universe...
And yet they are still hanging on pretty well. There are very few universes that could contend with the Iom.
Anywayz episode 2, jedi vs librarian.
Jedi Master: Weird guy rolling on the floor laughing, the jedi council is here to arrest you.
Librarian: What are you going to do? Force crush my head again!
Jedi Master2: Why yes we will! *raises hand* .... ahhh... my brainz... (head explodes)
Jedi Master: Thats it! Time to die! *Jedi turns on light saber* Jedi Master: YARGHHHH!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
*Librarian draws out a bag of cookies* Librarian: Oh light saber machine spirit, Iz has cookies! *Light Saber turns off* Jedi Master: OMG!!! Stupid lightsaber! You turn off at the site of cookies!!! Arghh, well stuff you, im going home! *Librarian picks up lightsaber and feeds it the cookies.*
I'm going with the Culture, if they didn't outright destroy the IoM they could easily infiltrate the highest levels of Govt without them even realising, or trick them into an impossible war that they can never win, or slowly change the Imperial Cult so it serves their needs.
The Cultures ships are Abominable Intelligences of the highest order. It would drive the IoM crazy!
Daleks would do okay in 40k i mean there fearless , and it only takes 1 dalek to create a 1000 with the right tech . Space marines would have a horrible time fighting them , no matter how many times you kill em they ALL ways come back .
Emperors Faithful wrote:I honestly can't think of anything. Go Imperium.
1 ) Zentraedi (macross) 1MM ships, including 5 KM long capital ships. On a land war the Imperium wouldn't have a chance. Hyperspace jumps that cross the galaxy in days and are safe.
Invid (robotech) See above.
2) Startrek races:
Organians. Beings of pure energy, stopped entire battlefleets in their tracks just because.
First Federation. Massive ships on a scale dwarfing the IMperium.
Any race that can fight at speeds faster than light.
3) B5 Shadows. Just because they are epic cool.
4) Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy: Planet Krikkit.
David Weber wrote a series of three books that fell under the Dahak series. They tell the story of the 3rd Empire trasnitioning into the 4th Imperium. In that Universe their capitiol ships are the size of moons, and they launch Battleships. Each memeber of the imperium is augmented and they have some funny ass weapons, such as hyper granades, and hyper beams.
@Frazzled - Dude. I love the Zentraedi as much as anyone else - and on the surface seem to have lots of advantages - huge size, immense combined fleet of over 1B warships, automated satelite factories, cloned troops etc. Unfortunately these guys were calculated to have weapons magnitudes weaker than the IoM (IIRC, their gun destroyers were rated at 50GT and the flagships at 60GT. This is problematic as the flagship's 60GT is generated by a barrage of smaller blasts. IoM ships are designed to withstand weapons in the high GT/TT range, so at best, the Zentraedi guns are 10x too weak, or at worst, 100-500x too weak.) They needed a full battlefleet to sanitize the Earth. The IoM can perform Exterminatus with significantly less ships. The ground war is immaterial if you can't land troops.
The first ones from B5 are races in decline - as such, I don't think they'd have the numbers to fight a protracted war with the slowed Black Library quantity of ships. It's debatable if the Shadow cruiser's cutting beam is more, or less powerful than a Zentraedi gun destroyer. Evidence would point to the latter, as the Macross is a remodelled Supervision Army gun destroyer and is shown oblitterating Zentraedi destroyer / tanker / cruiser class vessels, where as the Shadows/Vorlons are reduced to cutting. Consideirng that gun destroyers aren't up to the task, the Shadows are even less up to the task, as I doubt they could scrape together more than a few hundred ships.
I conceede that the Star Trek super doods (you forgot Q and the Dowd) are super though. Dowd FTW. "So I destroyed the Imperium". "You mean you destroyed their ship?" "No. I destroyed the Imperium EVERYWHERE."
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I'd submit the STMC from Gunbuster and/or the Humans who killed them as being worthy foes to the Imperium.
STMC pros:
Organic ships - confirmed at least 20 billion. Normal swarm size numbers into the low millions.
FTL capable.
Cruiser class 10km, Mothership class 1000km size.
Gestate inside stars. Hulls can withstand stellar pressure.
Standard weapon yield unknown - as shown in Gunbuster - probably in the low GT range. In Diebuster, in the low TT range. Also known to use kamikaze attacks if standard weapons are ineffective.
Able to enter and fight in hyperspace. Fight at sublight speed in normal space.
Evolved STMC at the end of Diebuster had appropriated a black hole for its own use and was able to return weapons fire by adjusting the gravitational output of the black hole. Survived a 1.2×10^38J physical attack with minor surface damage.
Human pros:
FTL capable.
Final incursion into STMC territory had fleet in the 100 000's IIRC. Survived kamikaze attack wave of 8B STMC.
Planetary bodies were destroyed as collateral damage.
Humans use degeneracy reactors powered by singularities.
Buster Machine 3 is Jupiter compressed into a black hole bomb. Destroyed galactic center.
Mass Produced Sizzler type Machine Weapon reactor rated at 1SOL. Their weapons can one shot STMC up to cruiser class. Able to fight at sublight speed.
what about superman, he could fly right to holy terra and punch it in half and watch as the Imperium falls to chaos...superman wins and it only took one punch lol, but that only the Imperium and on that note I dont get it why when 40k vs come up its always the Imperium vs...there are other races in 40k that are just as strong if not stronger.
keezus wrote:@Frazzled - Dude. I love the Zentraedi as much as anyone else - and on the surface seem to have lots of advantages - huge size, immense combined fleet of over 1B warships, automated satelite factories, cloned troops etc. Unfortunately these guys were calculated to have weapons magnitudes weaker than the IoM (IIRC, their gun destroyers were rated at 50GT and the flagships at 60GT. This is problematic as the flagship's 60GT is generated by a barrage of smaller blasts. IoM ships are designed to withstand weapons in the high GT/TT range, so at best, the Zentraedi guns are 10x too weak, or at worst, 100-500x too weak.) They needed a full battlefleet to sanitize the Earth. The IoM can perform Exterminatus with significantly less ships. The ground war is immaterial if you can't land troops.
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1. The Zentraedi could instantly wipe out a planet. The IoM can't.
2. Shields don't stop torpedoes. Zentraedi typically attack with a mix of pods fighters. IoM would be in creek.
I know its cheating but im thinking the Q continuum.
The Q are a unique race, and they possess many extraordinary, "God-like" powers including the ability to manipulate time, space, matter, and energy. They have an almost omnipotent ability to perceive and know events in the past, present, and future. They are invulnerable and immortal except when faced with weapons designed by others of their kind: in sufficient numbers, Q can strip other Q of their powers and make them mortal or make them any lifeform they wish.
del'Vhar wrote:The other thing that needs to be taken into account is the IoM's willingness to simply destroy an entire planet if it considered lost.
Possibly a general such as Ender, commanding a fleet armed with the DR Device could do a fethton of damage (assuming Void Shields didnt negate the Little Doctors), but ultimately the IoM would survive, and either Ender would burn out catastrophically trying to general the whole war single handedly, or the IoM's counter attack would utterly destroy the attackers.
Possibly whatever the "visitors" were in Roadside Picnic? Though not enough is know about them to properly decide, assuming the Picnic theory is correct, (All the stuff they left was just rubbish they dropped) their technology is possibly on a level with stuff from 40k
I dunno, assuming the Little Doctors ignore void shields, they're still only able to kill a single ship at a time. Ships in 40k typically remain thousands of kilometers apart making the chance of a fleet-killing chain reaction pretty unlikely. Furthermore, the Enderverse ships seem to need to get in pretty close to be able to use the weapon and it's not likely they'd survive long enough to get in range.
My Ender knowledge is a bit rusty, haven't read it in years, so that might not be the case.
'
I was thinking of Ender but thought that they had so much trouble with the buggers which don't seem to be nearly as powerful as the IoM that it wouldnt be much of a battle. def since Star Wars and Star Trek I believe failed in these vs. forums.
del'Vhar wrote:
And if Replicators existed in the 40k universe they would likely be nigh unstoppable, if they ever managed to assimilate Tau tech or Titans it would probably be game over for the IoM
I'm assuming these are the stargate replicators. If so, owned. There are plenty of weapons in 40k that would completely destroy any replicator through brute force.
Yeah, for a while, then the replicators would become practically immune to said weapons.
Given that they are basically doubleplusgood robot tyranids (and yes, I just used newspeak) I think that the IoM would ultimately lose.
Maybe the reapers from Mass Effect, presuming they have untold numbers as is indicated.
The Indoctrination ability would feasibly work on standard guard, essentially stealing the IoM's strength.
del'Vhar wrote: And if Replicators existed in the 40k universe they would likely be nigh unstoppable, if they ever managed to assimilate Tau tech or Titans it would probably be game over for the IoM
I'm assuming these are the stargate replicators. If so, owned. There are plenty of weapons in 40k that would completely destroy any replicator through brute force.
Yeah, for a while, then the replicators would become practically immune to said weapons.
Given that they are basically doubleplusgood robot tyranids (and yes, I just used newspeak) I think that the IoM would ultimately lose.
Oh not this crap again... they can't become immune to weaponry which completely vaporises their cells (also, which version are these? I remember that the ancients wiped the first version out with normal heat weaponry). I have seen arguments in similar nature about borg cubes. You CANNOT become immune to weaponry that does not have a frequency! Hence why normal SGC weaponry stuns them. The only reason they don't die is because they instantly replicate and heal their wound. If you were to get a weapon that ELIMINATES every cell, they won't be able to heal, and thus cease to exist.
On a united Galaxy Vs. Galaxy scale I'd say that the Star Wars universe has a much better shot as it has a Much wider variety of ships, the ability to have an unlimited army of both organic creatures (cloning facilities from either the Sparaati or Kaminoen) or robotic droids (Trade Federation, Techno Union, or Intergalactic Banking Clan), in addition to the superior travel system of hyper-space and the force vs. the Warp.
What Would really pose a threat, imo, would be the Necrons who simply refuse to die and the Eldar who would be able to use the warp without fear. The solutions to either would be Death Star-esque Turbo laser used to destroy the entire Tomb Worlds/World Engines or Craftworlds. Assuming, however, that the Eldar can just zip out before the Death Star was able to fire off the laser then the Eldar would have a much better fighting chance but I believe that the lack of numbers would soon come back to bite them.
The only ship that star wars has that would actually hurt the IoM is in fact the deathstar. Seriously. A guardsman could probably take a hit from those standard turbolasers. (sarcasm)
... the only thing i consider epic about star wars right now is the trailer for the old republic...
<.<
>.>
I still say star wars is fine as long as you dont mind ramming as an option, as the star wars capital weapons are a joke. Ram a clone/droid frigate into a gothic ship and the gothic ship is in trouble though!
It is also worth noting that Exterminatus of a world perpetrated by the Imperium is not made with the standard Lance and macrocannon weaponry carried by Imperial Battlecruisers but with either a single warhead loaded with Life Eater virus that detonates within the planet's atmosphere, turning all organic matter into gas and sludge in a matter of hours across the planet by dissolving the molecular bonds of said life forms.
As a finishing touch however a single lance strike is applied from low orbit to ignite the atmosphere to turn the planet into an charred wasteland.
The other way is a small spread of cyclonic torpedoes wich catastrophicly break up a planet's tetonic plates and destabilizes it's mantle.. effectively sinking the landmasses in a churning sea of magama.
And these things are standard armaments..
When facing extreme threats the Imperium usually lifts a few bans and have the Mechanicum dig out ancient and forbidden weapons that has been locked away because they are too dangerous to have around, ranging from Vortex warheads on immense scale, experimental weaponsystems from mankinds past that cannot be repliated, Nanobot weaponsystems etc etc.
del'Vhar wrote:
And if Replicators existed in the 40k universe they would likely be nigh unstoppable, if they ever managed to assimilate Tau tech or Titans it would probably be game over for the IoM
I'm assuming these are the stargate replicators. If so, owned. There are plenty of weapons in 40k that would completely destroy any replicator through brute force.
Yeah, for a while, then the replicators would become practically immune to said weapons.
Given that they are basically doubleplusgood robot tyranids (and yes, I just used newspeak) I think that the IoM would ultimately lose.
Oh not this crap again... they can't become immune to weaponry which completely vaporises their cells (also, which version are these? I remember that the ancients wiped the first version out with normal heat weaponry). I have seen arguments in similar nature about borg cubes. You CANNOT become immune to weaponry that does not have a frequency! Hence why normal SGC weaponry stuns them. The only reason they don't die is because they instantly replicate and heal their wound. If you were to get a weapon that ELIMINATES every cell, they won't be able to heal, and thus cease to exist.
True buuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuut...
The replicators can eat ships...A few of them on any IoM spaceboat and guess what? Not IoM anymore! So plus +1 for the replis...unless the IoM is willing to destroy its own ships, which i doubt.
del'Vhar wrote: And if Replicators existed in the 40k universe they would likely be nigh unstoppable, if they ever managed to assimilate Tau tech or Titans it would probably be game over for the IoM
I'm assuming these are the stargate replicators. If so, owned. There are plenty of weapons in 40k that would completely destroy any replicator through brute force.
Yeah, for a while, then the replicators would become practically immune to said weapons.
Given that they are basically doubleplusgood robot tyranids (and yes, I just used newspeak) I think that the IoM would ultimately lose.
Oh not this crap again... they can't become immune to weaponry which completely vaporises their cells (also, which version are these? I remember that the ancients wiped the first version out with normal heat weaponry). I have seen arguments in similar nature about borg cubes. You CANNOT become immune to weaponry that does not have a frequency! Hence why normal SGC weaponry stuns them. The only reason they don't die is because they instantly replicate and heal their wound. If you were to get a weapon that ELIMINATES every cell, they won't be able to heal, and thus cease to exist.
True buuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuut... The replicators can eat ships...A few of them on any IoM spaceboat and guess what? Not IoM anymore! So plus +1 for the replis...unless the IoM is willing to destroy its own ships, which i doubt.
Surely you remmember Macragge? The emperor class? What did that ship and it's crew do to save the IoM? If an emperor class would do this, then why not every ship that gets boarded by replicators? +1 for IoM. -1 for replicators. The only threat from the stargate universe that I see is Tealc and O'neil for their badassery.
Actually, i was kind of expecting this type of answer.So, let's say the DO blow up all of their ships (or let's say they don't get all infected by replis, which leaves some ships).The process is basically this:
Replis infect IoM ship => IoM destroys it (or it suicides). Replis regrow faster than IoM can make more ships (elsewhere)=> IoM less ships, replis still there.
Unless the Imperium successfully blows all of their infested ships at once blocking the spread, which is ... highly unlikely, to say the least, and even if done, there is no way to know which ship was and which ship wasn't infected. They'd have to blow up all of them just to be sure
Goldes Sabres wrote:The only threat from the stargate universe that I see is Tealc and O'neil for their badassery.
On the other hand, though unlikely as well, i can totally relate to that. Teal'c is one badass indeed!
aka_tizz wrote:Actually, i was kind of expecting this type of answer.So, let's say the DO blow up all of their ships (or let's say they don't get all infected by replis, which leaves some ships).The process is basically this:
Replis infect IoM ship => IoM destroys it (or it suicides). Replis regrow faster than IoM can make more ships => IoM no ships, replis still there.
Unless the Imperium successfully blows all of their infested ships at once blocking the spread, which is ... highly unlikely, to say the least, and even if done, there is no way to know which ship was and which ship wasn't infected. They'd have to blow up all of them just to be sure
The thing is... there is none of this *spread*. If you detonate your warp drive, there is no wreckage, no nothing. The ship would be consumed and transported to the warp. Of course, vessels outside of the ship would be destroyed as well, and any left can be destoyed by Iom's standard ship-to-ship weaponry.
Although, I can see replicators winning. But I would imagine it would take thousands upon thousands of years. I mean, if the IoM can withstand a battering from races much more terrible than replicators for TEN THOUSAND years, they could hold them off for longer.
Golden Sabres wrote: The thing is... there is none of this *spread*
Actually, there is spread. Two ways, actually. First, them buggers can attach to other ships, so if any survivors try to escape via pod or anything else and then get picked up by another ship, they would spread, or they can do initiate exit on their own(making themselves small ships, then heading out - not farfetched, as they are capable of much smarter stuff)
Furthermore, they may actually survive a ship blowing up (i remember the episode where a repli survives a burning ship on re-entry, which isn't far from surviving a ship exploding)
The only way i see that they could be defeated would be the Mechanicum designing the same software that allowed them to get disabled, which i doubt they would, as that would be against their principles, but they still might do it though, or : engineering the galaxy-spanning wave that took all the Replicators out in SG:1 (hard to do, as IoM have no stargates and i don't think they have any means to do that galaxy-wide at the same time).
So i guess they could be taken out, just not the blow-them-all-up way. And even so, the Imperium would be even further weakened, maybe allowing other threats to take over and do the job.
Something which now popped my mind would be a nice Tyranid/Replicator alliance (i don't know, any of them assimilating the other?), which would most definitely the Imperium up
Golden Sabres wrote: The thing is... there is none of this *spread*
Actually, there is spread. Two ways, actually. First, them buggers can attach to other ships, so if any survivors try to escape via pod or anything else and then get picked up by another ship, they would spread, or they can do initiate exit on their own(making themselves small ships, then heading out - not farfetched, as they are capable of much smarter stuff)
Furthermore, they may actually survive a ship blowing up (i remember the episode where a repli survives a burning ship on re-entry, which isn't far from surviving a ship exploding)
The only way i see that they could be defeated would be the Mechanicum designing the same software that allowed them to get disabled, which i doubt they would, as that would be against their principles, but they still might do it though, or : engineering the galaxy-spanning wave that took all the Replicators out in SG:1 (hard to do, as IoM have no stargates and i don't think they have any means to do that galaxy-wide at the same time).
So i guess they could be taken out, just not the blow-them-all-up way. And even so, the Imperium would be even further weakened, maybe allowing other threats to take over and do the job.
Something which now popped my mind would be a nice Tyranid/Replicator alliance (i don't know, any of them assimilating the other?), which would most definitely the Imperium up
With that signal, do you think maybe they could deliver it through the webway? If so, the IoM would have a chance. Course, they would have to ally themselves with eldar to accomplish this... And about the *spread* I was refering to, it was the warp drive detonation. As in I thought you refering to an actual explosion. You know, wreckage and such.
Also, don't replicators, if they are stranded in space, deactivate? And wait untill they can make it to a ship?
Emperors Faithful wrote:I honestly can't think of anything. Go Imperium.
1 ) Zentraedi (macross) 1MM ships, including 5 KM long capital ships. On a land war the Imperium wouldn't have a chance. Hyperspace jumps that cross the galaxy in days and are safe.
Invid (robotech) See above.
They suck in firepower compared to Imperium.
Only thing that they could do is to spam Imperium with those megaton level ships and to do raids vs Imperuim using their FTL.
Imperium has some(I estimate and remember 9 of 10 ships are merchant) 270,000 to 470,000 warp capable warships(number doesn't include merchant and civilian ships).
Imperial and SW Empire ships share similiar firepower,but Empire has strategic mobility(Hyperdrive) and production capability so they would win against the Imperium,but against whole 40kSW losed because of the Chaos and Necrons.
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STC_LogisEngine wrote:It is also worth noting that Exterminatus of a world perpetrated by the Imperium is not made with the standard Lance and macrocannon weaponry carried by Imperial Battlecruisers but with either a single warhead loaded with Life Eater virus that detonates within the planet's atmosphere, turning all organic matter into gas and sludge in a matter of hours across the planet by dissolving the molecular bonds of said life forms.
As a finishing touch however a single lance strike is applied from low orbit to ignite the atmosphere to turn the planet into an charred wasteland.
The other way is a small spread of cyclonic torpedoes wich catastrophicly break up a planet's tetonic plates and destabilizes it's mantle.. effectively sinking the landmasses in a churning sea of magama.
And these things are standard armaments..
When facing extreme threats the Imperium usually lifts a few bans and have the Mechanicum dig out ancient and forbidden weapons that has been locked away because they are too dangerous to have around, ranging from Vortex warheads on immense scale, experimental weaponsystems from mankinds past that cannot be repliated, Nanobot weaponsystems etc etc.
Golden Sabres wrote:With that signal, do you think maybe they could deliver it through the webway? If so, the IoM would have a chance. Course, they would have to ally themselves with eldar to accomplish this... And about the *spread* I was refering to, it was the warp drive detonation. As in I thought you refering to an actual explosion. You know, wreckage and such.
Also, don't replicators, if they are stranded in space, deactivate? And wait untill they can make it to a ship?
Yes, allying themselves with the eldar might accomplish this.
Yes, the replicators could be destroyed by IoM. Just not the old fashioned way the imperium is used to fighting.
Yes, a warp drive could eradicate them. All of them or just some, that is subject to debate, and i don't think any of us could clarify this.
And yes, stranded in space they would deactivate until attaching to a ship...which would only postpone the inevitable. And with enough luck of finding a Craftworld ...well...nuff said.
Also, i wonder what the outcome of a replicator / necron encounter would be...that should be interesting enough, as i could easily see one side totally submissive to the other without much of a fight. And with the necron power and the replicator ability to multiply...
To conclude, i would say that if the Imperium chooses a traditional space battle, or fighting with regular weapons/lasers/space marines, they would definitely lose. However, they could win by other methods, but it would require the mechanicum to invent some really nasty stuff, which they failed to do during the last few thousand years...
Golden Sabres wrote:With that signal, do you think maybe they could deliver it through the webway? If so, the IoM would have a chance. Course, they would have to ally themselves with eldar to accomplish this... And about the *spread* I was refering to, it was the warp drive detonation. As in I thought you refering to an actual explosion. You know, wreckage and such.
Also, don't replicators, if they are stranded in space, deactivate? And wait untill they can make it to a ship?
Yes, allying themselves with the eldar might accomplish this.
Yes, the replicators could be destroyed by IoM. Just not the old fashioned way the imperium is used to fighting.
Yes, a warp drive could eradicate them. All of them or just some, that is subject to debate, and i don't think any of us could clarify this.
And yes, stranded in space they would deactivate until attaching to a ship...which would only postpone the inevitable. And with enough luck of finding a Craftworld ...well...nuff said.
Also, i wonder what the outcome of a replicator / necron encounter would be...that should be interesting enough, as i could easily see one side totally submissive to the other without much of a fight. And with the necron power and the replicator ability to multiply...
To conclude, i would say that if the Imperium chooses a traditional space battle, or fighting with regular weapons/lasers/space marines, they would definitely lose. However, they could win by other methods, but it would require the mechanicum to invent some really nasty stuff, which they failed to do during the last few thousand years...
Advancment in the Imperium exist,it's just slow.
I wonder what would Chaos Gods do,if Replicators went against them(Chaos will stomp them).
Replicators would just annoy Necrons(their bodies are nanotech and Necrodermis infestation is hard to get off planet,read Caves of Ice).
aka_tizz wrote: And yes, stranded in space they would deactivate until attaching to a ship...which would only postpone the inevitable. And with enough luck of finding a Craftworld ...well...nuff said.
If they attached themselves to a craftworld, they may as well have shot themselves. Craftworlds are made of psychic materials which the Replicators would find..... yukky... It would be kind of hard to eat a ship when you have the souls of countless thousands (actually, they are countable) of souls, and the infinity circuits immune system ruthlessly hunting you down and destroying you.
Interestingly, I wonder how ships equipped with General Products hulls (Ringworld) would hold up against 40k firepower, as they are reputed to be largely invincible vs anything other than visible light and gravitational forces.
While the Andromeda-verse is horribly underpowered to take on the 40k-verse due to the huge disparity in numbers (meaning inevitable destruction via attrition), the universe posess two very powerful technologies of note: (star system destroying) Novabombs and Singularity weapons, both of which when combined with FTL slipstream could result in devestating first strike and raid possibilities.
It's possible that the battletech universe, during or after the Clan invasion, could feasibly do it. The problem would be the Imperial Navy, but the Clans re-introduced rather advanced and powerful warships. At least the FTL travel in that universe is much more reliable than in the 40k universe, but whether or not the Clan warships could stand up to Imperial warships is something I would not bet upon.
In the battletech universe, was'nt the actual FTL drive one of our lost techs? I seem to remember something about there being an agreement between all of the houses and clans that said they wouldnt attack each others FTL transports. It could be I'm thinking of a different period in battletech.
The only thing I could see holding back the battletech universe is their weaponry.
Alls I can think of is Necrons. They already have 3 awoken Star Gods, albeit one not doing much, ships that move so fast they cannot be detected, almost invincible warriors (according to fluff) and knows what else.
Well, anyone capable of time travel could take out the Emperor before this whole thing started.
Also, the limited range and ROF of their weaponry could be a serious disadvantage. I mean a Lascannon shoots 4 feet, at 1/35 scale, that translates to 140 feet. An M14 rifle has an effective range of 1500 feet and a MUCH higher rate of fire. The only thing limiting the current US army from decimating the entire Imperium army is a lack of ammo
There isn't too much in traditional sci fi which can even come close to competing with the races in war hammer 40K, (except those scrubs the tau, who rely solely on plot armor)
I agree that Stargate has some of the only things that could potentially bother the imperium. I actually think that the Ori, from Stargate would give the Imperium a run for their money. The Priors seemed immensely powerful, as they are granted their powers from Ascended beings, and their warships seemed to be immune to even Asgard weapons. They are somewhat fundamentally inconsistent with the concept of the Warp however, which makes a direct comparison difficult. If we draw a conclusion that the Ancients are comparable to the old ones, and the Ori have the technology of the Ancients, I think they'd fight at a technological advantage to the Imperium, and even the Eldar. A tough opponent in conventional warfare to be sure.
While I don't watch any Anime any more, I'd argue that the some of that stuff is pretty OTT as well. Some of the Gundams from Gundam Wing seem like they are armed similarly to Titans. I don't have the numbers on those, or anything but they could give the ground forces a run for their money.
Two awoken star gods, both of which can be defeated and forced to starve to death.
The third one woke up, got his ass handed to him, and now is imprisoned under Mars.
Nice try,even if defeated they just phase to nearest Tomb World and in 41st Millenium galaxy is teeming with life.
Blackstone Fortress failed to destroy them.
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Grakmar wrote:Well, anyone capable of time travel could take out the Emperor before this whole thing started.
Also, the limited range and ROF of their weaponry could be a serious disadvantage. I mean a Lascannon shoots 4 feet, at 1/35 scale, that translates to 140 feet. An M14 rifle has an effective range of 1500 feet and a MUCH higher rate of fire. The only thing limiting the current US army from decimating the entire Imperium army is a lack of ammo
Game mechanics aren't used vs debate,that is one of the basic rules!
IvanTih wrote:
Nice try,even if defeated they just phase to nearest Tomb World and in 41st Millenium galaxy is teeming with life.
Blackstone Fortress failed to destroy them.
Not a nice try, this is actual canon, from Mechanicum.
By the way, the Nightbringer was starved and nearly killed by Ultramarines, and only managed to survive because of the ultramarines stupidity.
akaean wrote:While I don't watch any Anime any more, I'd argue that the some of that stuff is pretty OTT as well. Some of the Gundams from Gundam Wing seem like they are armed similarly to Titans. I don't have the numbers on those, or anything but they could give the ground forces a run for their money.
This would be a negatory. As huge a Gundam fan that I am, none of the Gundamverses, even the ones with the silly powerful ones like TurnA or G Gundam have what it takes. To use your example of Gundam Wing - in this world only 5 such Gundams exist (7 if you count Wing0 and Talgeese). This is a problem. Recently, in Gundam 00, a similar disparity in technology between the main characters and their opponents fodder like machines was established at the start. In this case, their enemies deduced that while the Gundams were protected by their higher tech plot armor, their pilots were only human and could be pushed beyone their endurance. When that failed, they deduced that the Gundam's weakest point was their mobile home base. Even if the Gundams could go toe to toe with a Titan - which is doubtful in itself - their pilots and home-base craft definitely could not survive the kind of numbers that the IoM could throw at them.
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phantommaster wrote:Alls I can think of is Necrons. They already have 3 awoken Star Gods, albeit one not doing much, ships that move so fast they cannot be detected, almost invincible warriors (according to fluff) and knows what else.
Having things from 40k vs 40k is to be contrary to the intent of this thread. Being that they are from the same universe, and ALREADY fighting on even terms, obviously they would be in contention.
What about Daleks, assuming they're not fighting the time Lords?
They have billions of soldiers, armed with weapons much more powerful than anything a guardsman possesses, and they can fly. I colud see them needing to develop something to deal with titans though.
Golden Sabres wrote:With that signal, do you think maybe they could deliver it through the webway? If so, the IoM would have a chance. Course, they would have to ally themselves with eldar to accomplish this... And about the *spread* I was refering to, it was the warp drive detonation. As in I thought you refering to an actual explosion. You know, wreckage and such.
Also, don't replicators, if they are stranded in space, deactivate? And wait untill they can make it to a ship?
Yes, allying themselves with the eldar might accomplish this.
Yes, the replicators could be destroyed by IoM. Just not the old fashioned way the imperium is used to fighting.
Yes, a warp drive could eradicate them. All of them or just some, that is subject to debate, and i don't think any of us could clarify this.
And yes, stranded in space they would deactivate until attaching to a ship...which would only postpone the inevitable. And with enough luck of finding a Craftworld ...well...nuff said.
Also, i wonder what the outcome of a replicator / necron encounter would be...that should be interesting enough, as i could easily see one side totally submissive to the other without much of a fight. And with the necron power and the replicator ability to multiply...
To conclude, i would say that if the Imperium chooses a traditional space battle, or fighting with regular weapons/lasers/space marines, they would definitely lose. However, they could win by other methods, but it would require the mechanicum to invent some really nasty stuff, which they failed to do during the last few thousand years...
Advancment in the Imperium exist,it's just slow.
I wonder what would Chaos Gods do,if Replicators went against them(Chaos will stomp them).
Replicators would just annoy Necrons(their bodies are nanotech and Necrodermis infestation is hard to get off planet,read Caves of Ice).
Yes one of my quotes proves that!
The Imperium is increasing in technology, like that of a slowed slug!
Also Warp drives exploding means there is nothing left! Its not like halo how they transport half the ship! NO!
Its like a freaking super nova Except of it exploding it implodes! Leaving nothing behind! Ok one emperor class ship could destroy an entire TYRANID HIVE FLEET!
Anyway the only thing i could see beating the Imperium of man is the.......... Chuck Norris nation.
JK. Probaly only thing that could are the Xel-Naga from starcraft + the protoss. I could not see the IoM winning against them....
AndrewC wrote:But the real question would be how many culture ships would it take to destroy IoM?
One. It's not much of a contest when they fight from hyperspace.
The real fun starts when you throw the Idirans into the mix. While they're puny compared to the Culture's sheer size, Idiran warriors are silly fun in ground battles. Assuming that one of the combatants isn't a knife missile, of course.
Asherian Command wrote:
Anyway the only thing i could see beating the Imperium of man is the.......... Chuck Norris nation.
JK. Probaly only thing that could are the Xel-Naga from starcraft + the protoss. I could not see the IoM winning against them....
I doubt it. How extensive was the Protoss Empire? On attrition alone the Imperium would likely have them beat.
Asherian Command wrote:
Anyway the only thing i could see beating the Imperium of man is the.......... Chuck Norris nation.
JK. Probaly only thing that could are the Xel-Naga from starcraft + the protoss. I could not see the IoM winning against them....
I doubt it. How extensive was the Protoss Empire? On attrition alone the Imperium would likely have them beat.
The Xel-naga ruled the entire Galaxy.
And the protoss ruled 2/5 of the galaxy.
AsherianCommand wrote:Also Warp drives exploding means there is nothing left! Its not like halo how they transport half the ship! NO!
Its like a freaking super nova Except of it exploding it implodes! Leaving nothing behind! Ok one emperor class ship could destroy an entire TYRANID HIVE FLEET!
Finally, someone who actually knows what a warp drive detonation does!!!
The Imperium of man isn't up to the task of fighting the power of..... Grime and Dirt! Because in the grimdark future of the 41st milllenium, there is no OxyClean.
Borg would be annihalated by IoM weaponry, unlike star trek ships, their weapons have no frequency, so therefore Borg Cubes CANNOT adapt to imperial weaponry and will be destoyed very quickly. I have already explained this in previous posts... the borg would be no challenge whatsoever to the IoM.
ChiliPowderKeg wrote:The Imperium of man isn't up to the task of fighting the power of..... Grime and Dirt! Because in the grimdark future of the 41st milllenium, there is no OxyClean.
I believe there is only one being in the entire universe of universes, that could take a stand against the Imperium of man.
This Guy:
http://stargate.wikia.com/wiki/Teal'c
IvanTih wrote:
Nice try,even if defeated they just phase to nearest Tomb World and in 41st Millenium galaxy is teeming with life.
Blackstone Fortress failed to destroy them.
Not a nice try, this is actual canon, from Mechanicum.
By the way, the Nightbringer was starved and nearly killed by Ultramarines, and only managed to survive because of the ultramarines stupidity.
I know,but I was reffering to the fact that they are free so they're damn had to kill now.
Except Void Dragon who's still on Mars.
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Asherian Command wrote:
ChiliPowderKeg wrote:The Imperium of man isn't up to the task of fighting the power of..... Grime and Dirt! Because in the grimdark future of the 41st milllenium, there is no OxyClean.
STC_LogisEngine wrote:
When facing extreme threats the Imperium usually lifts a few bans and have the Mechanicum dig out ancient and forbidden weapons that has been locked away because they are too dangerous to have around, ranging from Vortex warheads on immense scale, experimental weaponsystems from mankinds past that cannot be repliated, Nanobot weaponsystems etc etc.
Probably this. The archives of the Mechanicus are no doubt filled with horrendously powerful weapons. They are probably holding back some "collapse universe onto itself" warhead from the Dark Age of Technology.
IvanTih wrote: I know,but I was reffering to the fact that they are free so they're damn had to kill now.
Except Void Dragon who's still on Mars.
Actually, the Nightbringer is still weak. After he was freed by the Ultramarines (IDIOTS!!!!!) he went and spread himself over a nearby star and is still regaining his strength. The only C'tan currently at full strength is the deciever. And we all know he's not so hard to kill (unless your armed with a phaseknife, we all know how that goes...).
The culture isn't even a fight. Against anyone. (basically they beat EVERYTHING but gods, who hand the asses they've collected back, no fight either way)
So my vote goes to Tengen Toppa Gurren Lagann.
Depending on ship tech, Issac Asimov's Galactic Empire could have attritioned the IoM to death, having 25 million planets in its heyday.
Starwars is really not that militarized. I mean C'mon, 14 million clones?! Grand Army? There are 18 million on earth! (soldiers, not clones )
Alucard would be interesting. This depends on two things.
1) do ghoul/Alucard'ed navigators still navigate? If not, Dracard Alucula may be restricted to a single system, barring devine intervention.
and 2) I am pretty shure that virus bomb > Vampire, so he would have to stop eventually -even if after several decades of pure madness- just like hive fleet behemoth. Yes, thats right, one man is effectively a hive fleet-level threat. That or he would meet someone like Yarrick and decide that he was 150% worthy to take him down.
The Scrin from the Command and Conquer tiberium verse might be able to defeat the IoM, but not in a conventional war.
What they do is "seed" every planet in the galaxay with tiberium.
Wait a few thousand years until tiberium levels get too high and you get a explosion, wiping out most sentinet life on the planet leaving some survivors to be mopped up.
Problems with this are:
1) IoM can destroy the asteriods with tiberium, though this may actually help spread it though if tiberium can survive reentry.
2) This is highly inpractical cause there is like a trillion planets
3) If the mechanicum develops sonic weapons, they could destroy/slow down the proccess of tiberium.
The Culture are pretty much the most well known major contender.
But I offer from Neal Asher's Polity:
The Polity: Human/AI society, currently building a Dyson Sphere, use stargate commuter (Runcible) travel between planets/ships/floors/the future and the past/galaxies/Bedrooms. Ten year wars with 2 Megadeaths every 42 seconds are regarded as hoaxes, and when they turn the safeties off their Runcibles, anything coming through exits at 1% below C. Not to mention they have finished their first "War Runcible", its about the size of Jupiter and is used for firing moons like shotgun pellets. They use Golem infantry spam on mass, artificial beings able to use flowing lava as cover in combat and survive re-entry on the outside. Their elite infantry are Sparkind, humans and Golems taken to such levels of enhancement that they can fend off hordes of standard combat Golem with only a platoon.
The "Jain": Bio-Physics-technology AI/Bacteria that is able to subvert anything with heat, matter and sentience, prior to a die-back caused by hitting critical mass point a second before awakening to true Singularity Intelligence, they were making a galaxy-wide Dyson Sphere. That galaxy is believed to be one of many to be infected by them. The last users in our Galaxy lobotimised themselves and all other sentient creatures in order to stop its spread
Borg would be annihalated by IoM weaponry, unlike star trek ships, their weapons have no frequency, so therefore Borg Cubes CANNOT adapt to imperial weaponry and will be destoyed very quickly. I have already explained this in previous posts... the borg would be no challenge whatsoever to the IoM.
Out of all the 'normal' ST races, the Borg have the best chance at actually defeating the IoM. But not conventionally.
They would have to infiltrate and subvert IoM ships using their assimilation technology/nanoprobes.
The only argument to be settled on this is to whether or not Borg get to ignore Void shields. If they do then IoM has a massive problem. If they don't....
Cheers
Andrew
Also,
Lance weaponry by its nature has a frequency, the Borg would adapt. A great big gun however......
As Sniperjolly briefly mentioned, I think Isaac Asimov's Empire or the Foundation that follows it could feasibly take on the Imperium.
It is mentioned in the first of the Foundation series, when they discover an old, adrift Empire Cruiser that its weapons are powerful enough to damage or destroy a planet, so the Empire must have had some serious kick in its prime.
Additionally, once the Foundation starts getting up to speed, they actually have much better tech than this, the standard pistol sidearm is capable of vaporising a person instantly, but they even have personal shields that can absorb that kind of power, not bad really.
Given that both the Empire and Foundation are spread throughout the galaxy and contain around 25 million worlds, I'd be willing to bet a pretty large sum on them being a strong contender.
Just a few suggestions, I don't know masses about the other sci-fi universes but hey, shoot them down or encourage as you see fit:
- Orks (if united they can supposedly overwhelm anything)
- Tyranids (some see them as unstoppable)
- Chaos (?)
- The White Rabbit From Monty Python and the Holy Grail
- The Combine (from Half Life), god knows their actual power out-side that displayed in HL2. Probably too little known about their space-faring capacity to be relied upon though.
- John Mclaine (Die Hard)
- The Big Uglies From Farscape
- The Big Ugly From The 5th Element
- Robert Pattinson.
Ranking the ones I know of in order of killiness. PS means Post-Singularity:
The Top 5: The Timelords The "Jain" (PS) from the Polity Sequence by Neal Asher, The Five Galaxies from the Uplift Universe by David Brin The Q-Continuum (PS) from Star Trek The Umbrathane/Heliothane from Cowl by Neal Asher
Not Quite Top But Able To Bugger With Physics: The Culture (PS) from Ian M Banks The Culture series The Polity from the Polity Sequence Humanity (not PS) aligned with Eschaton (VERY PS) in the Eschaton Series by Charles Stross The Vorlons (PS) from B5
Honourable Mentions: Manfred's cat Aineko (PS to the max) from Accelerando by Charles Stross (WHAT THE FETH IS A CAT DOING WITH A HALTING-PROOF ORACLE?!) The Shadows from B5 (I really wanted to put these guys up higher but they kinda lack the real reality warping power of the above and seem to be more dangerous because of their active aggression rather then unmaking existence.
The Non-Reality Buggering
Top 5: The Republic(s) and Galactic Empire(s) from Star Wars The Techno Mages from B5 The Borg from Star Trek The Dominion from Star Trek The Federation from Star Trek
Honourable Mentions: The Earth Federation from Starship Troopers (think the Imperium, but without the Emperor Primarchs and Space Marines, but keeping the Catholic Space Nazi image as of the 3rd Movie) The Humanity and the Lensmen from EE Doc Smith's pulp adventures, not sure if they're in this bracket or the scary one above, I do know that they've beaten the Tau when it comes to teching up, but I'm not sure if a few hundred Jedi's are that much of a threat.
AndrewC wrote:Out of all the 'normal' ST races, the Borg have the best chance at actually defeating the IoM. But not conventionally.
They would have to infiltrate and subvert IoM ships using their assimilation technology/nanoprobes.
The only argument to be settled on this is to whether or not Borg get to ignore Void shields. If they do then IoM has a massive problem. If they don't....
Cheers
Andrew
Also,
Lance weaponry by its nature has a frequency, the Borg would adapt. A great big gun however......
It doesn't,that's just ST crap.
Borg adaptation is limited,it's not going to protect you against teratons impacting the Borg Cube.Even if they board they'll get masacred by the troops inside the ship(I know that there are lot of chained crewman,but the Captain just shuts down life support from that deck).
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Eyclonus wrote:Top 5:
The Republic(s) and Galactic Empire(s) from Star Wars
The Techno Mages from B5 The Borg from Star Trek
The Dominion from Star Trek
The Federation from Star Trek
Never going to happen,ST and B5(except First Ones) are too weak to against IOM.
Star Wars would win beacuse of the Industrial and FTL capability(they have similiar firepower when compared to IOM,that means that they throw gigatons to teratons).
IvanTih wrote:Never going to happen,ST and B5(except First Ones) are too weak to against IOM.
Star Wars would win beacuse of the Industrial and FTL capability(they have similiar firepower when compared to IOM,that means that they throw gigatons to teratons).
Star Trek has a more stable techbase and better FTL then IoM, the really part that kills them is that you can't negotiate with religious fanatics. That and the Feds lack any sort of balls compared to IoM. Q could, but that would require effort.
I reckon the Vorlons could, if they brought themselves into the right mindset, for one thing its probable they could jam the astronomican and astropathic networks. Think about that...
Star Wars I'm not so sure, for one thing marksmanship is even rarer and their ship's broadside weapons are so short ranged. Looking at the Industrial base the problem with Star Wars is a lack of unifying agency, the republic is more like the UN as all members are nearly fully autonomous. Cooperation is almost impossible while the IoM has departmento munitorium, not as good but at least everyone can agree on the basic design for LRBTs.
IvanTih wrote:Never going to happen,ST and B5(except First Ones) are too weak to against IOM.
Star Wars would win beacuse of the Industrial and FTL capability(they have similiar firepower when compared to IOM,that means that they throw gigatons to teratons).
Star Trek has a more stable techbase and better FTL then IoM, the really part that kills them is that you can't negotiate with religious fanatics. That and the Feds lack any sort of balls compared to IoM. Q could, but that would require effort.
I reckon the Vorlons could, if they brought themselves into the right mindset, for one thing its probable they could jam the astronomican and astropathic networks. Think about that...
Star Wars I'm not so sure, for one thing marksmanship is even rarer and their ship's broadside weapons are so short ranged. Looking at the Industrial base the problem with Star Wars is a lack of unifying agency, the republic is more like the UN as all members are nearly fully autonomous. Cooperation is almost impossible while the IoM has departmento munitorium, not as good but at least everyone can agree on the basic design for LRBTs.
IOM has more advanced technology,they just don't use higher examples because it's just too expensive(like cloaked ships in Deathwatch RPG or cloaked shuttle in Kill Team),warp drive sucks compared to 40k warp drive(Borg and some other races are faster though).
That marksman issue is called Stormtrooper sindrome(good characters must not die so the evil characters will always miss,if SW films went real life,Luke and others would be already dead).
Vorlons are less powerful than psykers of 40k,God Emperor would stop from doing that.
SW ranges are great,look at the books(tens of thousand kilometres IIRC) and if not who cares,SW has got greater firepower.
Commissar Agro wrote:The Scrin from the Command and Conquer tiberium verse might be able to defeat the IoM, but not in a conventional war.
What they do is "seed" every planet in the galaxay with tiberium.
Considering that the IoM regularly inhabit DEATH WORLDS (Catachans) and TOXIC WORLDS (Salvar Chem Dogs), Tiberium would be an insignificant nussiance.
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Eyclonus wrote:The Vorlons (PS) from B5
I would consider the Vorlons to only be a threat if they decided to "Appear as the God Emperor" to the masses (also, I doubt even a gestalt Vorlon conciousness could sustain an appearance to enough people that it would matter). This would require that they actually land and appear - trouble is that the IoM is so xenophobic this would never happen - as any alien ship appearing on their scopes would be blasted to hell and gone. In a standup war, the Vorlons are severly lacking in numbers.
IvanTih wrote:It doesn't,that's just ST crap.
Borg adaptation is limited,it's not going to protect you against teratons impacting the Borg Cube.Even if they board they'll get masacred by the troops inside the ship(I know that there are lot of chained crewman,but the Captain just shuts down life support from that deck).
Hello Ivan,
From the basic rule book lance weapons are energy based weapons. By it's very nature, energy has a specific frequency. Laser at its very basic is coherent light/radiation/heat. It has a frequency. Ergo, they can adapt to it.
Shutting down life support does nothing to the borg. They can function in complete vacuum. If the Borg can board an IoM ship, it's a win/win situation. They either subvert the ship and entire crew, or the IoM scuttle/destroy the ship. Either way the IoM is down one ship.
Actually now I'm imagining the Vorlons manipulating the Tyranids to do the fighting, that seems more in line with their philosophy then straight confrantation... Oh thats just possible it could be close to Canon....
IvanTih wrote:It doesn't,that's just ST crap.
Borg adaptation is limited,it's not going to protect you against teratons impacting the Borg Cube.Even if they board they'll get masacred by the troops inside the ship(I know that there are lot of chained crewman,but the Captain just shuts down life support from that deck).
Hello Ivan,
From the basic rule book lance weapons are energy based weapons. By it's very nature, energy has a specific frequency. Laser at its very basic is coherent light/radiation/heat. It has a frequency. Ergo, they can adapt to it.
Shutting down life support does nothing to the borg. They can function in complete vacuum. If the Borg can board an IoM ship, it's a win/win situation. They either subvert the ship and entire crew, or the IoM scuttle/destroy the ship. Either way the IoM is down one ship.
Cheers
Andrew
Problem wih the Borg is that they have to penetrate void shields then metres of armor as teleporters have been disrupted by dense materials and radiaton(being close to sun does that IIRC).
And I wonder how are Borg going to face IOM in boarding actions who has superior fighters,combat servitors itd...
Remember when Borg where ejected from Voyager what do you say on that,they looked dead.
I think the borg's strength is their ability to advance their science through assimilating, if they assimilate Eldar, they get wraithbone and the ability to manipulate souls, if they absorb the Tau, they get Tau firepower, if they manage to get enough 'nid specimen they could make their biological components equal or even greater to their cybernetics.
IvanTih wrote:It doesn't,that's just ST crap.
Borg adaptation is limited,it's not going to protect you against teratons impacting the Borg Cube.Even if they board they'll get masacred by the troops inside the ship(I know that there are lot of chained crewman,but the Captain just shuts down life support from that deck).
Hello Ivan,
From the basic rule book lance weapons are energy based weapons. By it's very nature, energy has a specific frequency. Laser at its very basic is coherent light/radiation/heat. It has a frequency. Ergo, they can adapt to it.
Shutting down life support does nothing to the borg. They can function in complete vacuum. If the Borg can board an IoM ship, it's a win/win situation. They either subvert the ship and entire crew, or the IoM scuttle/destroy the ship. Either way the IoM is down one ship.
Cheers
Andrew
Problem wih the Borg is that they have to penetrate void shields then metres of armor as teleporters have been disrupted by dense materials and radiaton(being close to sun does that IIRC).
And I wonder how are Borg going to face IOM in boarding actions who has superior fighters,combat servitors itd...
Remember when Borg where ejected from Voyager what do you say on that,they looked dead.
The Borg actually developed warships when faced with their first real threat (species 8472 I think was the number). The scary, giant borg cubes that ravage the galaxy aren't even their militarized ones.
Well I don't know if anyone covered this... i didn't feel like reading through 4 pages of posts... but the Empire in the Dune series i find comparable only in manpower and favorably in firepower. I say firepower because of the personal shields everyone has in the Dune universe so only solid non energized weapons are the only viable means of prosecuting a war. Any energy weapon against a shield equals an atomic bomb hence no one uses it. because to use means blowing your enemy and yourself to tiny little atoms....
The navigator guild in dune is the same if not better than the navigators and astronomican in IoM...
There is also the void globes, rooms, ships that cannot be seen by the drug induced visions in dune.... i guess that is comparable to the warp but it is completely cut-off from everything
but everyone in that universe has their own little agendas and for them to make any kind of unity like the IoM is damn near impossible
Battle_Brother_Bruening wrote:Well I don't know if anyone covered this... i didn't feel like reading through 4 pages of posts... but the Empire in the Dune series i find comparable only in manpower and favorably in firepower. I say firepower because of the personal shields everyone has in the Dune universe so only solid non energized weapons are the only viable means of prosecuting a war. Any energy weapon against a shield equals an atomic bomb hence no one uses it. because to use means blowing your enemy and yourself to tiny little atoms....
The navigator guild in dune is the same if not better than the navigators and astronomican in IoM...
There is also the void globes, rooms, ships that cannot be seen by the drug induced visions in dune.... i guess that is comparable to the warp but it is completely cut-off from everything
Their Navigators and other prescient groups can't track other psykers very well, especially if they believe in another psyker, which may make targeting the Astronomican and the Astropathic relays difficult due to their operators having had a very personal connection to a very powerful psyker.
Also the Imperium are sufficiently bat-gak crazy to consider the Holtzman Shields to be a win-win situation. On a less psychotic note, how about a Space Marine fighting a Fremen barehanded?
The Sardaukar are pretty much described as being Astartes.
I don't know though, I think it would be a good fight. The Weirding might give the Fremen an edge. Remember that Paul could use the technique to kill a man with a single blow to the chest, and then he taught this technique to the Fremen who were already extremely badass.
During close-quarters combat, an individual adept at the Weirding Way was able to maneuver around and strike an opponent at unimaginable speeds. To the opponent (and any bystanders) the movement seemed almost like close-quarter teleportation.
Eyclonus wrote:
Also the Imperium are sufficiently bat-gak crazy to consider the Holtzman Shields to be a win-win situation. On a less psychotic note, how about a Space Marine fighting a Fremen barehanded?
the fremen would lose easily... they might be deadly fast and have the crysknife but the SM can take em easily no problem.
the sardaukar however might put up a fight because it is similar training and such but all the enhancements to Astartes and armor and weapons the sardaukar wouldn't last long
During close-quarters combat, an individual adept at the Weirding Way was able to maneuver around and strike an opponent at unimaginable speeds. To the opponent (and any bystanders) the movement seemed almost like close-quarter teleportation.
That would be a much tougher fight and i would say based on that alone it could go 50/50 but they also have the Voice... it might work against a marine and even anyone with psychic ability because it reacts with (correct me if i am wrong) memories and brain function and is more of a physical advantage than a psychic one.
I wonder if a Bene Gesserit could spit acid... They can use their minds to alter their body chemistry. I think it was in the House Harkonnen book where they talk about a Reverend Mother that was raped by Baron Harkonnen created a Sexually Transmitted Disease within herself that made the Baron be really fat and gross as you see in Dune.
It's why he only likes boys at that point of the story arc.
During close-quarters combat, an individual adept at the Weirding Way was able to maneuver around and strike an opponent at unimaginable speeds. To the opponent (and any bystanders) the movement seemed almost like close-quarter teleportation.
That would be a much tougher fight and i would say based on that alone it could go 50/50 but they also have the Voice... it might work against a marine and even anyone with psychic ability because it reacts with (correct me if i am wrong) memories and brain function and is more of a physical advantage than a psychic one.
That's true. Maybe a Librarian or a Grey Knight could resist the voice, but a normal Battle-Brother would probably succumb. I didn't even think of that.
Fremen actually may have that advantage with the Weirding, but the Astartes have raw power... and spit acid.
Not all fremen had the Weirding but it has been a long time since i read the series so i am not completely sure on my information. I know some did if they learned it directly from the atreides line or something along those lines.
Fremen actually may have that advantage with the Weirding, but the Astartes have raw power... and spit acid.
Not all fremen had the Weirding but it has been a long time since i read the series so i am not completely sure on my information. I know some did if they learned it directly from the atreides line or something along those lines.
Yes, Paul and Jessica Atreides taught the technique to the Fremen IIRC.
Monster Rain wrote:That would be a much tougher fight and i would say based on that alone it could go 50/50 but they also have the Voice... it might work against a marine and even anyone with psychic ability because it reacts with (correct me if i am wrong) memories and brain function and is more of a physical advantage than a psychic one.
That's true. Maybe a Librarian or a Grey Knight could resist the voice, but a normal Battle-Brother would probably succumb. I didn't even think of that.
No they won't,in one of the Space Wolf novels a Greater Nurgling unable to compel a Marine to his side,destroys his personality and rebuilts it from scratch and even after that the old personality takes over after some time.In one novels Ragnars resist Slanneshi magic and doesn't fall under it's influence(a beatiful daemon basically try to make Ragnar fall for her beauty IIRC,but not sure about the info).
I wonder how will Power Armor resist strike from Weirding Way?
Psykers in 40k are deadlier than those you see in Dune.
IvanTih wrote:No they won't,in one of the Space Wolf novels a Greater Nurgling unable to compel a Marine to his side,destroys his personality and rebuilts it from scratch and even after that the old personality takes over after some time.In one novels Ragnars resist Slanneshi magic and doesn't fall under it's influence(a beatiful daemon basically try to make Ragnar fall for her beauty IIRC,but not sure about the info).
I wonder how will Power Armor resist strike from Weirding Way?
Psykers in 40k are deadlier than those you see in Dune.
The Voice doesn't change your personality or make you do self destructive things.
They could just say something like "Take off your Helmet" or something simple like that.
IvanTih wrote:No they won't,in one of the Space Wolf novels a Greater Nurgling unable to compel a Marine to his side,destroys his personality and rebuilts it from scratch and even after that the old personality takes over after some time.In one novels Ragnars resist Slanneshi magic and doesn't fall under it's influence(a beatiful daemon basically try to make Ragnar fall for her beauty IIRC,but not sure about the info).
I wonder how will Power Armor resist strike from Weirding Way?
Psykers in 40k are deadlier than those you see in Dune.
The Voice doesn't change your personality or make you do self destructive things.
They could just say something like "Take off your Helmet" or something simple like that.
I wonder how are they going to do that to an Iron willed Marine who can resist deamons who have much better metods of doing that.
Greater Nurgling tried to do the same Voice thing to a Marine,but it failed,so he changed his personality.
I think the idea and the science behind it is that the frequency at what the voice works... because it is different for each person .... reacts with the brain and nerves not with any psychic power like the warp and chaos.
Battle_Brother_Bruening wrote:I think the idea and the science behind it is that the frequency at what the voice works... because it is different for each person .... reacts with the brain and nerves not with any psychic power like the warp and chaos.
Chaos is way worse than Bene Geserit,a psyker could deal with most opponents in Dune.
IvanTih wrote:No they won't,in one of the Space Wolf novels a Greater Nurgling unable to compel a Marine to his side,destroys his personality and rebuilts it from scratch and even after that the old personality takes over after some time.In one novels Ragnars resist Slanneshi magic and doesn't fall under it's influence(a beatiful daemon basically try to make Ragnar fall for her beauty IIRC,but not sure about the info).
I wonder how will Power Armor resist strike from Weirding Way?
Psykers in 40k are deadlier than those you see in Dune.
The Voice doesn't change your personality or make you do self destructive things.
They could just say something like "Take off your Helmet" or something simple like that.
I wonder how are they going to do that to an Iron willed Marine who can resist deamons who have much better metods of doing that.
Greater Nurgling tried to do the same Voice thing to a Marine,but it failed,so he changed his personality.
Considering a Space Marine is a 2d6 roll from running away from a Tank Shocking Devilfish, I'm not so sure how the Voice affecting them is so far-fetched. Also, not all Astartes are so resistant to Daemonic influence you know.
The term 'Voice' referred to an audio-neuro control mechanism that enables the manipulation of speech to achieve complete control over a receiver It is perfected by the Bene Gesserit through the combined training of several advanced techniques.
With sufficient natural ability and training one could become more resilient to the effects of Voice, as was most famously seen with Paul Atreides. Other methods of resistence came through technology, such as the Cone of Silence.
Maybe there is no effect on the strong minded but I don't think it is similar to what the nurgling did... they affect the soul of a person
Considering a Space Marine is a 2d6 roll from running away from a Tank Shocking Devilfish, I'm not so sure how the Voice affecting them is so far-fetched. Also, not all Astartes are so resistant to Daemonic influence you know.
These things happen because a Greater Daemon or Chaos God turns his attention to someone(Horus was corrupted by all chaos gods,while only Khorne nearly corrupted Sanguinius).
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Battle_Brother_Bruening wrote:The term 'Voice' referred to an audio-neuro control mechanism that enables the manipulation of speech to achieve complete control over a receiver It is perfected by the Bene Gesserit through the combined training of several advanced techniques.
With sufficient natural ability and training one could become more resilient to the effects of Voice, as was most famously seen with Paul Atreides. Other methods of resistence came through technology, such as the Cone of Silence.
Maybe there is no effect on the strong minded but I don't think it is similar to what the nurgling did... they affect the soul of a person
Considering a Space Marine is a 2d6 roll from running away from a Tank Shocking Devilfish, I'm not so sure how the Voice affecting them is so far-fetched. Also, not all Astartes are so resistant to Daemonic influence you know.
These things happen because a Greater Daemon or Chaos God turns his attention to someone(Horus was corrupted by all chaos gods,while only Khorne nearly corrupted Sanguinius).
Okay, what about the other nine legions of Astartes that went with Horus?
IvanTih wrote:
Battle_Brother_Bruening wrote:The term 'Voice' referred to an audio-neuro control mechanism that enables the manipulation of speech to achieve complete control over a receiver It is perfected by the Bene Gesserit through the combined training of several advanced techniques.
With sufficient natural ability and training one could become more resilient to the effects of Voice, as was most famously seen with Paul Atreides. Other methods of resistence came through technology, such as the Cone of Silence.
Maybe there is no effect on the strong minded but I don't think it is similar to what the nurgling did... they affect the soul of a person
Monster Rain wrote:Okay, what about the other nine legions of Astartes that went with Horus?
Horus had great influence over them,couple that with fact that Horus was very good with them,some disliked Emperor and one was nearly destroyed by the Space Wolves and that should do it.
One was also the one which was first corrupted by the Chaos Gods.
IvanTih wrote:
And that is soul is the mind of a person.
Yes but voice affects the brain not the mind... and to clarify what i said about being strong minded... they just have to have knowledge to be prepared and resist... but this is getting nit-picky.
Battle_Brother_Bruening wrote:The term 'Voice' referred to an audio-neuro control mechanism that enables the manipulation of speech to achieve complete control over a receiver It is perfected by the Bene Gesserit through the combined training of several advanced techniques.
With sufficient natural ability and training one could become more resilient to the effects of Voice, as was most famously seen with Paul Atreides. Other methods of resistence came through technology, such as the Cone of Silence.
Maybe there is no effect on the strong minded but I don't think it is similar to what the nurgling did... they affect the soul of a person
And that is soul is the mind of a person.
That's a leap. What makes you think that?
Because when someone dies the Soul is the thing that contains their mind in the Warp(Eldar for example,Human souls don't retain sentinence after death expect for strong psykers).
Monster Rain wrote:Okay, what about the other nine legions of Astartes that went with Horus?
Horus had great influence over them,couple that with fact that Horus was very good with them,some disliked Emperor and one was nearly destroyed by the Space Wolves and that should do it.
One was also the one which was first corrupted by the Chaos Gods.
I don't see how any of that has anything to do with what we're talking about.
The fact that there are Chaos Space Marines would mean that they aren't as "Iron Willed" and immune to having their minds influenced as you're making them out to be. Hence, I think the Voice could work on them.
Monster Rain wrote:Okay, what about the other nine legions of Astartes that went with Horus?
Horus had great influence over them,couple that with fact that Horus was very good with them,some disliked Emperor and one was nearly destroyed by the Space Wolves and that should do it.
One was also the one which was first corrupted by the Chaos Gods.
I don't see how any of that has anything to do with what we're talking about.
The fact that there are Chaos Space Marines would mean that they aren't as "Iron Willed" and immune to having their minds influenced as you're making them out to be. Hence, I think the Voice could work on them.
Okay,the Voice can take over them,but Psykers on the other hand can play with Bene Geserit,in short use them as puppets or destroy their brains.
Sure they are. Why wouldn't they be? And, I'm sorry, those links? Why in the hell would I want to read all of that? If you're trying to put this debate into some sort of strange, esoteric context it's not going to work. I use the term "debate" extremely loosely here.
Void shields can be damaged with conventional firepower, in fluff and game mechanics.
Void shields can be damaged with conventional firepower, in fluff and game mechanics.
We know that they can be damaged,but game fluff doesn't accuratly depicts it because of the dice(otherwise Marines would have much higher stats and grots would not be able to defeat Marines because of some lucky dice).
Void shields can be damaged with conventional firepower, in fluff and game mechanics.
We know that they can be damaged,but game fluff doesn't accuratly depicts it because of the dice(otherwise Marines would have much higher stats and grots would not be able to defeat Marines because of some lucky dice).
That is both arguable and largely irrelevant.
In the fluff then, a Lascannon or TurboLaser can damage a Void Shield. I imagine a Borg Cube has comparable, if not better gubbinz than that.
In the fluff then, a Lascannon or TurboLaser can damage a Void Shield. I imagine a Borg Cube has comparable, if not better gubbinz than that.
The ships have muchs stronger Void Shields than Titans on the other hand.In Execution Hour it is said that Titan could only scratch surface of an Imperial Cruiser.
The novels are really inconsistent man. I wouldn't want to use them as proof of anything, unless you'll allow for one World Eaters captain to be able to whoop up on a disgusting number of Word Bearers.
Monster Rain wrote:The novels are really inconsistent man. I wouldn't want to use them as proof of anything, unless you'll allow for one World Eaters captain to be able to whoop up on a disgusting number of Word Bearers.
Only because doesn't have some good cannon policy,but we use them.
Did you even read those links.
Monster Rain wrote:The novels are really inconsistent man. I wouldn't want to use them as proof of anything, unless you'll allow for one World Eaters captain to be able to whoop up on a disgusting number of Word Bearers.
Only because doesn't have some good cannon policy,but we use them.
Who is "we"?
And who decides these things? I read enough of those links to realize that someone really needs to go outside. I kid, but damn man. I'm not reading all of that.
Catyrpelius wrote:If I recall correctly the amount of damage a void shield can take goes up exponentially as the size of the vehicle its mounted on increases.
An Emperator Titan has exponentially tougher void shields then does a Warhoud.
The same would be true for Spaceborn Vessels.
In the fluff it would take an complete IG armored division to bring down a single Warhound Titan.
Is that from IA books,because I wonder how did the Imperials lose Taros when they had orbital superiority.
The Imperium achieves orbital superiority, but somehow gets kicked off the planet, despite having specialised orbital bombardment platforms, commanded by a guy from a chapter known for fairly impulsive action.
They then leave without firing a shot, abandoning the planet and the infrastructure they've died to secure in the hands of the Tau.(I consider Courage and Honor repayment when the Tau do the same).
Monster Rain wrote:The novels are really inconsistent man. I wouldn't want to use them as proof of anything, unless you'll allow for one World Eaters captain to be able to whoop up on a disgusting number of Word Bearers.
Only because doesn't have some good cannon policy,but we use them.
Who is "we"?
And who decides these things? I read enough of those links to realize that someone really needs to go outside. I kid, but damn man. I'm not reading all of that.
Caves of Ice confirms those teratons of firepower and exterminatus analysis does the same.
Read it when you have the time.
We reffers to the debaters.
Void shields can be damaged with conventional firepower, in fluff and game mechanics.
We know that they can be damaged,but game fluff doesn't accuratly depicts it because of the dice(otherwise Marines would have much higher stats and grots would not be able to defeat Marines because of some lucky dice).
1. Sure it can. We do not have to abide by your rules or strictures.
2. I will note a lowly grots can take down a titan void shield. Massed firepower is excellent.
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Monster Rain wrote:The novels are really inconsistent man. I wouldn't want to use them as proof of anything, unless you'll allow for one World Eaters captain to be able to whoop up on a disgusting number of Word Bearers.
or some tribesmen with bows take out some chaos marines.
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Catyrpelius wrote:If I recall correctly the amount of damage a void shield can take goes up exponentially as the size of the vehicle its mounted on increases.
An Emperator Titan has exponentially tougher void shields then does a Warhoud.
The same would be true for Spaceborn Vessels.
In the fluff it would take an complete IG armored division to bring down a single Warhound Titan.
A chaos terminator destroyed one in BL fluff. The books are all over the place.
Plus the fact the Imperium can't fight at light speed or better and Borg stomps them like so guys bringing knives to a gunfight.
Monster Rain wrote:The novels are really inconsistent man. I wouldn't want to use them as proof of anything, unless you'll allow for one World Eaters captain to be able to whoop up on a disgusting number of Word Bearers.
or some tribesmen with bows take out some chaos marines.
Hahahah very true.... how can an iron dart (albeit with unknown moth venom) take down a CSM fully armored... its like the rain... yeah you notice you got hit but it can't kill you unless you get really really lucky.
IvanTih wrote:
Borg don't have enough firepower to bring down an Imeprial ships.
From where are you getting that?
Again read those links.
It really helps.
Ask about 40k firepower on stardestroyer.net and spacebattles.com and they'll answer you.
Those are nonsense made up figures by fanboys with too much time on their hands and I utterly wipe my ass with them.
Show me where the stated firepower output of a Borg cube from the creators of Star Trek is.
Show me where the defensive armor strength of an Imperial ship is, from the creators of 40K.
Power armor still has weak spots(eye lenses, Joints) and the venom could simply be a flesh eating acid(not engaging the Marines immune system)
granted the chance of hitting the weak spots is low, but if Marines were invincible there wouldn't be a point to novels would there For the record in the GK omonibus the GKs attack a feral world and wade through thousands of humans armed with pikes, swords and bows. the only casualities sustained were 1 marine died by being crushed by a TON of cavelry(talking 100s or knights) and after they encountered some Deamonsf
i really can't think of ANY other sci-fi that could really hold much of a candle to the IoM. the closest is from Star Wars and there are many reasons they wouldn't stand a chance(range and size of space fleet ships, almost no weapons capable of slipping through voids, manpower, fractured nature of the Empire/republic, relitive lack of wartime expierence(30ish years compared to 10k+ years)...
quite simply 40k wins on scale alone. everything anything else can do the IoM can do Bigger, Better, or both.
Grey Templar wrote:In theory a dart could kill or wound a CSM.
Power armor still has weak spots(eye lenses, Joints) and the venom could simply be a flesh eating acid(not engaging the Marines immune system)
granted the chance of hitting the weak spots is low, but if Marines were invincible there wouldn't be a point to novels would there For the record in the GK omonibus the GKs attack a feral world and wade through thousands of humans armed with pikes, swords and bows. the only casualities sustained were 1 marine died by being crushed by a TON of cavelry(talking 100s or knights) and after they encountered some Deamonsf
i really can't think of ANY other sci-fi that could really hold much of a candle to the IoM. the closest is from Star Wars and there are many reasons they wouldn't stand a chance(range and size of space fleet ships, almost no weapons capable of slipping through voids, manpower, fractured nature of the Empire/republic, relitive lack of wartime expierence(30ish years compared to 10k+ years)...
quite simply 40k wins on scale alone. everything anything else can do the IoM can do Bigger, Better, or both.
Ever heard of Xeelee,Downstreamers or the Culture.
First two things do universe scale things while the thrid one has greater firepower than 40k.
Catyrpelius wrote:If I recall correctly the amount of damage a void shield can take goes up exponentially as the size of the vehicle its mounted on increases.
An Emperator Titan has exponentially tougher void shields then does a Warhoud.
The same would be true for Spaceborn Vessels.
In the fluff it would take an complete IG armored division to bring down a single Warhound Titan.
Is that from IA books,because I wonder how did the Imperials lose Taros when they had orbital superiority.
The Imperium achieves orbital superiority, but somehow gets kicked off the planet, despite having specialised orbital bombardment platforms, commanded by a guy from a chapter known for fairly impulsive action.
They then leave without firing a shot, abandoning the planet and the infrastructure they've died to secure in the hands of the Tau.(I consider Courage and Honor repayment when the Tau do the same).
Imperial Armor seriously downgrades 40k.
That's because he Imperium didn't have the political will to hold Taros.
Catyrpelius wrote:If I recall correctly the amount of damage a void shield can take goes up exponentially as the size of the vehicle its mounted on increases.
An Emperator Titan has exponentially tougher void shields then does a Warhoud.
The same would be true for Spaceborn Vessels.
In the fluff it would take an complete IG armored division to bring down a single Warhound Titan.
Is that from IA books,because I wonder how did the Imperials lose Taros when they had orbital superiority.
The Imperium achieves orbital superiority, but somehow gets kicked off the planet, despite having specialised orbital bombardment platforms, commanded by a guy from a chapter known for fairly impulsive action.
They then leave without firing a shot, abandoning the planet and the infrastructure they've died to secure in the hands of the Tau.(I consider Courage and Honor repayment when the Tau do the same).
Imperial Armor seriously downgrades 40k.
That's because he Imperium didn't have the political will to hold Taros.
What about this theory?
Taros happened because to have a tau vs Imperium battle it needed to be game balanced somehow, and that means in universe nerfing the Imperium, since if they both really went at it the Imperium's size and resources would outdo any technical advantage the Tau might have had. So Taros became a minor issue for the Imperium while for the Tau it was a serious military campaign (which is technically true in universe.) The "balance" was achieved in universe by exploiting the fact it WAS a small campaign that was heavily crippled by politics and distance (13th Black Crusade was going on, this being a minor conflict far away, resources were limited and competed over, etc.) This translates into the Imperium having gakky logistics (that is to say, almost none) while the Tau enjoyed a significant logisticla advantage (an intact planet with intact defenses). On top of that, the tau had near perfect intel and knowledge of the Imperium throughout the war, whilst the Imperium had virtually nil.
Minor details (like 4 warhound Titans being deployed without Skitarii support, under-utilization of Space Marines, Imperial tactics being shaped to fit perfectly into tau ones, or luck) are pretty minor compared to the logistics/information issue.
And its the fact that things have to be so carefully managed this way to enable the tau to break even much less win is why they tend to be annoying. That and the constant reference to how 'dynamic' they are (I swear, every source with the tau in them will never fail to mention how 'dynamic' they are.)
Catyrpelius wrote:If I recall correctly the amount of damage a void shield can take goes up exponentially as the size of the vehicle its mounted on increases.
An Emperator Titan has exponentially tougher void shields then does a Warhoud.
The same would be true for Spaceborn Vessels.
In the fluff it would take an complete IG armored division to bring down a single Warhound Titan.
Is that from IA books,because I wonder how did the Imperials lose Taros when they had orbital superiority.
The Imperium achieves orbital superiority, but somehow gets kicked off the planet, despite having specialised orbital bombardment platforms, commanded by a guy from a chapter known for fairly impulsive action.
They then leave without firing a shot, abandoning the planet and the infrastructure they've died to secure in the hands of the Tau.(I consider Courage and Honor repayment when the Tau do the same).
Imperial Armor seriously downgrades 40k.
That's because he Imperium didn't have the political will to hold Taros.
What about this theory?
Taros happened because to have a tau vs Imperium battle it needed to be game balanced somehow, and that means in universe nerfing the Imperium, since if they both really went at it the Imperium's size and resources would outdo any technical advantage the Tau might have had. So Taros became a minor issue for the Imperium while for the Tau it was a serious military campaign (which is technically true in universe.) The "balance" was achieved in universe by exploiting the fact it WAS a small campaign that was heavily crippled by politics and distance (13th Black Crusade was going on, this being a minor conflict far away, resources were limited and competed over, etc.) This translates into the Imperium having gakky logistics (that is to say, almost none) while the Tau enjoyed a significant logisticla advantage (an intact planet with intact defenses). On top of that, the tau had near perfect intel and knowledge of the Imperium throughout the war, whilst the Imperium had virtually nil.
Minor details (like 4 warhound Titans being deployed without Skitarii support, under-utilization of Space Marines, Imperial tactics being shaped to fit perfectly into tau ones, or luck) are pretty minor compared to the logistics/information issue.
And its the fact that things have to be so carefully managed this way to enable the tau to break even much less win is why they tend to be annoying. That and the constant reference to how 'dynamic' they are (I swear, every source with the tau in them will never fail to mention how 'dynamic' they are.)
Yes, like I said: Imperium lacked the political will to win.
What happened on Taros isn't unusual, happens in the Imperium at least 3 times a day.
KamikazeCanuck wrote:
Yes, like I said: Imperium laked the political will to win.
What happened on Taros isn't unusual, happens in the Imperium at least 3 times a day.
Yeah,remember the fact that planets get lost because of the error in tax returns.
KamikazeCanuck wrote:
Yes, like I said: Imperium laked the political will to win.
What happened on Taros isn't unusual, happens in the Imperium at least 3 times a day.
Yeah,remember the fact that planets get lost because of the error in tax returns.
Yes, that's my favorite way the Imperium loses entire planets. Clerical Misfillings of DOOM!
Thinking of the Voice thing I present new theory.
Unlikely I'd think.
The training and indoctrination Marines undergo would put them well over the bar for "human" under the BG definintion, plus their vastly expanded senses would pretty much eliminate the unconscious element of the Voice - they'd distinguish the ultra and infra sonics quite clearly.
Go away for a couple of hours and three new pages appear....
Ivan, Borg have been shown to survive space in several episodes. Their ships normally operate in vacuum. In first contact they walk across the hull of the enterprise. In enterprise they survive deep freezing. The Voyager episode you have used, they are blown out of the airlock. But they were not demonstrated to be dead.
The Borg will not survive the IoM in a stand up fight. Yes, I do believe that they would be able to adapt to IoM energy weapons, but not the physical ones. Since the IoM rely more on guns than rays this is scant advantage. So we come to the subversion. If the Borg get onboard an IoM ship then unless ships crew get to them immediately then that ship is lost either to the borg or will need to be destroyed. The one question that has to answered can not, really, be answered in a direct comparison. Can Borg teleport through void shields. I say yes. In both universes shields block teleportation. Borg can teleport through shields unless the 'frequency' is constantly changed. IoM has demonstrated no ability to do so. Yes void shields are 'overly' powerful, but they are fixed. Deduction is that Borg can teleport through them.
Score one for the borg. Since each ship is fully equipped with forges for repairs and the knowledge to utilise them, the borg then have the beginings of a fleet with which to take on the IoM.
AndrewC wrote:Ivan, Borg have been shown to survive space in several episodes. Their ships normally operate in vacuum. In first contact they walk across the hull of the enterprise. In enterprise they survive deep freezing. The Voyager episode you have used, they are blown out of the airlock. But they were not demonstrated to be dead.
But, if that's true, why do they keep their ships pressurized with human-breathable air? If they don't need it, it's just wasted energy and a risk of fires. If they didn't need air for any reason, they wouldn't even need to worry about hull breaches. They must have some need for staying out of a vacuum. I wonder what it is...
AndrewC wrote:Ivan, Borg have been shown to survive space in several episodes. Their ships normally operate in vacuum. In first contact they walk across the hull of the enterprise. In enterprise they survive deep freezing. The Voyager episode you have used, they are blown out of the airlock. But they were not demonstrated to be dead.
But, if that's true, why do they keep their ships pressurized with human-breathable air? If they don't need it, it's just wasted energy and a risk of fires. If they didn't need air for any reason, they wouldn't even need to worry about hull breaches. They must have some need for staying out of a vacuum. I wonder what it is...
When they bring people on board to assimilate them, they have to keep them alive until the process is complete.
AndrewC wrote:Go away for a couple of hours and three new pages appear....
Ivan, Borg have been shown to survive space in several episodes. Their ships normally operate in vacuum. In first contact they walk across the hull of the enterprise. In enterprise they survive deep freezing. The Voyager episode you have used, they are blown out of the airlock. But they were not demonstrated to be dead.
The Borg will not survive the IoM in a stand up fight. Yes, I do believe that they would be able to adapt to IoM energy weapons, but not the physical ones. Since the IoM rely more on guns than rays this is scant advantage. So we come to the subversion. If the Borg get onboard an IoM ship then unless ships crew get to them immediately then that ship is lost either to the borg or will need to be destroyed. The one question that has to answered can not, really, be answered in a direct comparison. Can Borg teleport through void shields. I say yes. In both universes shields block teleportation. Borg can teleport through shields unless the 'frequency' is constantly changed. IoM has demonstrated no ability to do so. Yes void shields are 'overly' powerful, but they are fixed. Deduction is that Borg can teleport through them.
Score one for the borg. Since each ship is fully equipped with forges for repairs and the knowledge to utilise them, the borg then have the beginings of a fleet with which to take on the IoM.
Cheers
Andrew
Void shields are warp based and they don't have frequency.
Lances are directed energy weapons.
And you still don't get that Borg will get owned by the crew,if they attempt boarding.
Teleporters are disrupted by dense materials and IOM's ships have metres thick hull made of adamantium so I doubt it.
AndrewC wrote:Go away for a couple of hours and three new pages appear....
Ivan, Borg have been shown to survive space in several episodes. Their ships normally operate in vacuum. In first contact they walk across the hull of the enterprise. In enterprise they survive deep freezing. The Voyager episode you have used, they are blown out of the airlock. But they were not demonstrated to be dead.
The Borg will not survive the IoM in a stand up fight. Yes, I do believe that they would be able to adapt to IoM energy weapons, but not the physical ones. Since the IoM rely more on guns than rays this is scant advantage. So we come to the subversion. If the Borg get onboard an IoM ship then unless ships crew get to them immediately then that ship is lost either to the borg or will need to be destroyed. The one question that has to answered can not, really, be answered in a direct comparison. Can Borg teleport through void shields. I say yes. In both universes shields block teleportation. Borg can teleport through shields unless the 'frequency' is constantly changed. IoM has demonstrated no ability to do so. Yes void shields are 'overly' powerful, but they are fixed. Deduction is that Borg can teleport through them.
Score one for the borg. Since each ship is fully equipped with forges for repairs and the knowledge to utilise them, the borg then have the beginings of a fleet with which to take on the IoM.
Cheers
Andrew
Void shields are warp based and they don't have frequency.
Lances are directed energy weapons.
And you still don't get that Borg will get owned by the crew,if they attempt boarding.
On Space Marine ships, I imagine that's true.
Guardsmen and Naval personnel would have a harder time with them, particularly after the Borg adapt to their Lasguns.
Andrew
Void shields are warp based and they don't have frequency.
Lances are directed energy weapons.
And you still don't get that Borg will get owned by the crew,if they attempt boarding.
On Space Marine ships, I imagine that's true.
Guardsmen and Naval personnel would have a harder time with them, particularly after the Borg adapt to their Lasguns.
Guardsman and Naval personnel are much better than Starfleet in keeping the boarders out.
Another Borg spanker statement,Borg can't adapt to Lasguns they are directed energy weapons and shotguns are greatly used on IOM ships.
In addition, this somehow assumes that the Space Zombies are a match for a crew that is thousands strong and used to repellling boarding actions from fripping demons and things generally orders of magnitude nastier than the Borg could ever dream of being.
Combo it up with autofire shotguns that tend to turn people into a fine red mist when fired at close range and you've got heaps of dead Borg.
Monster Rain wrote:Who says they can't adapt to Lasers?
Shotguns aren't going to be as effective against the Borg as they are against people. Those things can take a beating.
Indeed, in all the episodes they seem to adapt to energy weapons rather well...
Plus, as noted in Voyager and ST, they will attack the ship itself. Venting all the O2 will take care of those pasky shotcannon guys.
How can the Imperium beat the Shadows? The Shadows are virtually undetectable. They will choose their battles every time. They are more than capable of corrupting the Imperium and throwing it into a civil war.
How can the Imperium beat the Vorlons? A certain human telepath altered by the Vorlons is capable of mind controlling an entire marketplace, 100+ people. We have no idea how powerful Vorlons actually are. They managed to convince an entire galaxy that they were angels/gods. They are extremely resistant to energy weapons and as beings of pure energy they are probably impervious to the vast majority of standard weapons. I doubt anything short of a nuke could even tickle them.
And what about the Mobile Infantry of Starship Troopers (just the book). They are faster, more armored, and carry more firepower than Space Marines. I don't know the exact quote, but it is stated in the book that a single trooper can easily defeat a squadron of tanks and that to use tanks against them would be pointless. Leman Russes are no bigger than the tanks they were talking about.
Two things make the Imperium a difficult opponent. The size of the Imperium and the strength of their Imperial Navy.
Step One: Borg give the Imperial Vessel "The Speech."
Step Two: Imperial Vessel Opens fire, Borg Cube immobilizes Imperial Vessel with Tractor Beam.
Step Three: Borg Cube Adapts to energy weapons, takes the damage from the non-energy weapons because it can operate with 78% of their structure destroyed.
Step Four: Borg Cube uses cutting beam to carve the Imperial Vessel up like a Thanksgiving turkey.
Step Five: Assimilation.
IvanTih wrote:Because they are directed energy weapons.
How can the Imperium beat the Shadows? The Shadows are virtually undetectable. They will choose their battles every time. They are more than capable of corrupting the Imperium and throwing it into a civil war.
How can the Imperium beat the Vorlons? A certain human telepath altered by the Vorlons is capable of mind controlling an entire marketplace, 100+ people. We have no idea how powerful Vorlons actually are. They managed to convince an entire galaxy that they were angels/gods. They are extremely resistant to energy weapons and as beings of pure energy they are probably impervious to the vast majority of standard weapons. I doubt anything short of a nuke could even tickle them.
And what about the Mobile Infantry of Starship Troopers (just the book). They are faster, more armored, and carry more firepower than Space Marines. I don't know the exact quote, but it is stated in the book that a single trooper can easily defeat a squadron of tanks and that to use tanks against them would be pointless. Leman Russes are no bigger than the tanks they were talking about.
Two things make the Imperium a difficult opponent. The size of the Imperium and the strength of their Imperial Navy.
And you ingore the fact that Vorlons and Shadows acts are pale in comparision of what God Emperor does.
Mobile Infantry may have 2 kiloton nuke guns,but they screwed in space.
Step One: Borg give the Imperial Vessel "The Speech."
Step Two: Imperial Vessel Opens fire, Borg Cube immobilizes Imperial Vessel with Tractor Beam.
Step Three: Borg Cube Adapts to energy weapons, takes the damage from the non-energy weapons because it can operate with 78% of their structure destroyed.
Step Four: Borg Cube uses cutting beam to carve the Imperial Vessel up like a Thanksgiving turkey.
Step Five: Assimilation.
Except that Borg will be destroyed by one shot,nice try trekkie.
Borg adaptation isn't unlimited.
A 40k ship is generally crewed by the equivalent of Hive Gangers as basic ratings, and that's before security turns up with the shotcannons.
And you ingore the fact that Vorlons and Shadows acts are pale in comparision of what God Emperor does.
Mobile Infantry may have 2 kiloton nuke guns,but they screwed in space.
1. The God Emperor doesn't do anything but poo in the Golden Throne.
2. Yep Mobile Infantry would do less well in space. Thats like a saying an airplane won't do well under water.
And you ingore the fact that Vorlons and Shadows acts are pale in comparision of what God Emperor does.
Mobile Infantry may have 2 kiloton nuke guns,but they screwed in space.
1. The God Emperor doesn't do anything but poo in the Golden Throne.
2. Yep Mobile Infantry would do less well in space. Thats like a saying an airplane won't do well under water.
Frazzled wrote:How would the IoM ship even target them? They move faster than light. The IoM doesn't.
Who cares when you've got superior firepower and better crew.
Ok. Blackbeard the pirate has 100 guys with blunderbusses in a nice square, guns at the ready.
They are now attacked by a Mig 25 flying full out Mach 3. The Mig strafes as it passes from 5,000 feet, turns and does it again and again and again and again and again.
Who would you rather be?
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Monster Rain wrote:Why would the Borg Ship be destroyed in one shot?
Lances, By Andy Chambers
The lance weapons themselves would be enormous energy projectors- each one the size of a chimney. They work by combining focussed coherent light(i.e. Lasers) and electromagnetic pulses as a propellant for highly energised particles (i.e. plasma). The closest naturally occuring equivalent would be a solar flare but focussed into a narrow beam.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Frazzled wrote:How would the IoM ship even target them? They move faster than light. The IoM doesn't.
Who cares when you've got superior firepower and better crew.
Ok. Blackbeard the pirate has 100 guys with blunderbusses in a nice square, guns at the ready.
They are now attacked by a Mig 25 flying full out Mach 3. The Mig strafes as it passes from 5,000 feet, turns and does it again and again and again and again and again.
Who would you rather be?
And you forget the fact that Borg would need to do that thousand of times to make any significant progress.
On top of that, ,their accelerations are easily in the thousands of gees (a grand frigate can pull 9000 gees or so as per Sabbat Martyr IIRC.. 9 AU in 91 minutes.)
IvanTih wrote:Here's a quote about lances by Andy Chambers.
Lances, By Andy Chambers
The lance weapons themselves would be enormous energy projectors- each one the size of a chimney. They work by combining focussed coherent light(i.e. Lasers) and electromagnetic pulses as a propellant for highly energised particles (i.e. plasma). The closest naturally occuring equivalent would be a solar flare but focussed into a narrow beam.
See the example above, as posted by Frazzled.
They could have Chuck Norris with a Beard-Mounted Nuclear Roundhouse Launcher on board, they'd never get a chance to use it!
Okay, bad example. Chuck Norris could take the Borg, but you understand my point.
IvanTih wrote:And you forget the fact that Borg would need to do that thousand of times to make any significant progress.
On top of that, ,their accelerations are easily in the thousands of gees (a grand frigate can pull 9000 gees or so as per Sabbat Martyr IIRC.. 9 AU in 91 minutes.)
With their sophisticated sensor scans they could cripple an Imperial Ship in a few volleys.
IvanTih wrote:Here's a quote about lances by Andy Chambers.
Lances, By Andy Chambers
The lance weapons themselves would be enormous energy projectors- each one the size of a chimney. They work by combining focussed coherent light(i.e. Lasers) and electromagnetic pulses as a propellant for highly energised particles (i.e. plasma). The closest naturally occuring equivalent would be a solar flare but focussed into a narrow beam.
See the example above, as posted by Frazzled.
They could have Chuck Norris with a Beard-Mounted Nuclear Roundhouse Launcher on board, they'd never get a chance to use it!
Okay, bad example. Chuck Norris could take the Borg, but you understand my point.
IvanTih wrote:And you forget the fact that Borg would need to do that thousand of times to make any significant progress.
On top of that, ,their accelerations are easily in the thousands of gees (a grand frigate can pull 9000 gees or so as per Sabbat Martyr IIRC.. 9 AU in 91 minutes.)
With their sophisticated sensor scans they could cripple an Imperial Ship in a few volleys.
Shield Generators, Engines, Life Support. Boom.
All those components are inside the ship.Nice try.First they are going to have penetrate Void shields.
IvanTih wrote:Here's a quote about lances by Andy Chambers.
Lances, By Andy Chambers
The lance weapons themselves would be enormous energy projectors- each one the size of a chimney. They work by combining focussed coherent light(i.e. Lasers) and electromagnetic pulses as a propellant for highly energised particles (i.e. plasma). The closest naturally occuring equivalent would be a solar flare but focussed into a narrow beam.
See the example above, as posted by Frazzled.
They could have Chuck Norris with a Beard-Mounted Nuclear Roundhouse Launcher on board, they'd never get a chance to use it!
Okay, bad example. Chuck Norris could take the Borg, but you understand my point.
IvanTih wrote:And you forget the fact that Borg would need to do that thousand of times to make any significant progress.
On top of that, ,their accelerations are easily in the thousands of gees (a grand frigate can pull 9000 gees or so as per Sabbat Martyr IIRC.. 9 AU in 91 minutes.)
With their sophisticated sensor scans they could cripple an Imperial Ship in a few volleys.
Shield Generators, Engines, Life Support. Boom.
All those components are inside the ship.Nice try.First they are going to have penetrate Void shields.
Lollerskates!
Disruptors>Void Shields. It's in the Bible.
The Borg can also adapt their weapons to pass through shields, so that's no big deal.
Even if takes them awhile (it won't) they have time. They're effectively invulnerable to to anything outside of necrons and potentially Eldar (may have better tracking or integrated psyker tracking).
Actual boarding, ayah they would have a much harder time, again right up until they successfully take over the ship itself. As noted, once they've taken one they can now replicate or defend against the IoM fleet. Emperor golden hotpants will be adapted to service...them.
IvanTih wrote:Here's a quote about lances by Andy Chambers.
Lances, By Andy Chambers
The lance weapons themselves would be enormous energy projectors- each one the size of a chimney. They work by combining focussed coherent light(i.e. Lasers) and electromagnetic pulses as a propellant for highly energised particles (i.e. plasma). The closest naturally occuring equivalent would be a solar flare but focussed into a narrow beam.
See the example above, as posted by Frazzled.
They could have Chuck Norris with a Beard-Mounted Nuclear Roundhouse Launcher on board, they'd never get a chance to use it!
Okay, bad example. Chuck Norris could take the Borg, but you understand my point.
IvanTih wrote:And you forget the fact that Borg would need to do that thousand of times to make any significant progress.
On top of that, ,their accelerations are easily in the thousands of gees (a grand frigate can pull 9000 gees or so as per Sabbat Martyr IIRC.. 9 AU in 91 minutes.)
With their sophisticated sensor scans they could cripple an Imperial Ship in a few volleys.
Shield Generators, Engines, Life Support. Boom.
All those components are inside the ship.Nice try.First they are going to have penetrate Void shields.
Lollerskates!
Disruptors>Void Shields. It's in the Bible.
The Borg can also adapt their weapons to pass through shields, so that's no big deal.
Problem is even if they magically adapt their weapons(which I doubt) there is a hull after that.
Automatically Appended Next Post: I'm still trying to figure out exactly how the idea spread that the Borg become godlike, invincible and immune to a weapon once they figure out what it is. While it is true that the Borg seem to be able to resist Federation weapons quite well once they figure out what they are, there is no indication that this means they are completely immune to any and all weapons once they figure out what they are. Obviously, this is just another example of the Star Trek fan "superhero" mentality, as applied to another Star Trek concept (see previous section).
This myth probably stems from a superhero-style mentality on the part of some Star Trek fans. It is a mentality. Science is all about determining cause, effect, and limits. If we don't know how something works, we can at least derive lower and upper limits for it. If we cannot derive these limits from theory, we can generate preliminary limits by simply looking at what they've done or failed to do. In any case, we do not simply say that if we're not sure what the limit is, then there not be any limit at all!
I am guessing that the myth spread because the Borg were seemingly impervious to the attacks of a single Federation starship in "Q Who?". However, the clash between the scientific mentality and the superhero mentality again rears its ugly head. Rather than describe the ability to resist the weapons of a single Federation starship as a lower limit, the fans have instead decided that it is proof of godlike omnipotence! Why worry about limits when you can simply assume that "adaptation" is a "special power" and that they can adapt to anything? The most stunning example of this nonsense is the recurring trekkie claim that a Borg cube could shake off a Death Star superlaser blast once a previous cube had been destroyed, because it would have "transmitted enough information to the collective to make the other cubes immune." If you can read and understand the various multi-syllable words in this paragraph, then I am sure that you can see how obviously unscientific and oversimplistic the "superhero Borg" mentality is.
This myth is clearly refuted by the canon films and episodes. In STFC, we see that although a Borg cube can become seemingly impervious to the weapons of a single Federation starship, it cannot withstand the massed attack of dozens of Federation starships. This demonstrates that Borg "adapted shield" lower limits are somewhere above the firepower of a GCS and below the massed firepower of a fleet containing dozens of Federation starships. We can also see Borg cubes being blasted into fragments by Species 8472 bio-ships and destroyed by simple planetary debris in "Scorpion". And of course, we all know that Borg drones are helpless against any sort of physical attack, whether it's the claws of Species 8472, the bullets of Picard's tommy-gun in STFC, a well-thrown elbow, or one of Worf's various artfully sculpted slicin' and dicin' toys.
Hey gang... thought I might jump in here for a second and note that according to this useful tool: http://www.merzo.net/
Clicking on the -10 tab shows the relative sizes of the ships. Note the comparative size of the COBRA to the Shadow/Vorlons and the comparative size of the Retribution class to the Borg. While possibly a threat to the escort classes (and below), I'm not sure the Vorlons/Shadows have the firepower to threaten the bigger craft.
Re: The Borg... The cube has the advantage in high speed combat. If it tractor-beams ANYTHING, its advantage is lost. I'm fairly sure the projectile ordinance from an Imperial Capital ship would probably one-shot the cube, considering the Enterprise's puny torpedoes could damage them.
keezus wrote:Hey gang... thought I might jump in here for a second and note that according to this useful tool: http://www.merzo.net/
Clicking on the -10 tab shows the relative sizes of the ships. Note the comparative size of the COBRA to the Shadow/Vorlons and the comparative size of the Retribution class to the Borg. While possibly a threat to the escort classes (and below), I'm not sure the Vorlons/Shadows have the firepower to threaten the bigger craft.
Re: The Borg... The cube has the advantage in high speed combat. If it tractor-beams ANYTHING, its advantage is lost. I'm fairly sure the projectile ordinance from an Imperial Capital ship would probably one-shot the cube, considering the Enterprise's puny torpedoes could damage them.
No Borg would not work again. Their ships are like flys against a FREAKING SUN! The imperium being the sun. As the star trek universe has no weapon that can pierce warp shields and all the imperium has to do is send in a Ship and turn on the self destruct button. Borg weapons may be able to cut through steel. But not adamantium. Which is 5x more denser than titanium. The IoM has no weapons that the borg could absorb. One shot from a lance. Dead. And not only that but only one race of beings could f--king rape the imperium of man... The Reapers! I mean seriously! Mass effect ships are 2 kilometres long. And they get owned. By a freaking space octopus! Nothing in the 40k universe Could resist 500,000 of these bastards. as they are AI's and their armor is almost impenetrable.
Also guys i have been noticing you guys have been like freaking attacking each other with clubs. Please calm down, its not like the world revolves around this discussion. Please be more considerate and more thoughtful in your posts please. Funny how they forgot about the Apocalypse and the Emperors class ship..
Asherian Command wrote:No Borg would not work again. Their ships are like flys against a FREAKING SUN! The imperium being the sun. As the star trek universe has no weapon that can pierce warp shields and all the imperium has to do is send in a Ship and turn on the self destruct button. Borg weapons may be able to cut through steel. But not adamantium. Which is 5x more denser than titanium.
The IoM has no weapons that the borg could absorb. One shot from a lance. Dead.
And not only that but only one race of beings could f--king rape the imperium of man...
The Reapers!
I mean seriously! Mass effect ships are 2 kilometres long. And they get owned. By a freaking space octopus!
Nothing in the 40k universe Could resist 500,000 of these bastards. as they are AI's and their armor is almost impenetrable.
Also guys i have been noticing you guys have been like freaking attacking each other with clubs. Please calm down, its not like the world revolves around this discussion. Please be more considerate and more thoughtful in your posts please.
Reapers have less firepower than IOM,probably in double digit gigatons or triple digit gigatons.
keezus wrote:Hey gang... thought I might jump in here for a second and note that according to this useful tool: http://www.merzo.net/
Re: The Borg... The cube has the advantage in high speed combat. If it tractor-beams ANYTHING, its advantage is lost. I'm fairly sure the projectile ordinance from an Imperial Capital ship would probably one-shot the cube, considering the Enterprise's puny torpedoes could damage them.
What's puny about Photon Torpedoes?
They're pretty brutal, man. Antimatter makes a big boom.
Asherian Command wrote:Also guys i have been noticing you guys have been like freaking attacking each other with clubs. Please calm down, its not like the world revolves around this discussion. Please be more considerate and more thoughtful in your posts please.
I disagree. I thought we were getting along quite nicely.
IvanTih wrote:[
This myth probably stems from a superhero-style mentality on the part of some Star Trek fans. It is a mentality. Science is all about determining cause, effect, and limits. If we don't know how something works, we can at least derive lower and upper limits for it. If we cannot derive these limits from theory, we can generate preliminary limits by simply looking at what they've done or failed to do. In any case, we do not simply say that if we're not sure what the limit is, then there not be any limit at all!
I am guessing that the myth spread because the Borg were seemingly impervious to the attacks of a single Federation starship in "Q Who?". However, the clash between the scientific mentality and the superhero mentality again rears its ugly head. Rather than describe the ability to resist the weapons of a single Federation starship as a lower limit, the fans have instead decided that it is proof of godlike omnipotence! Why worry about limits when you can simply assume that "adaptation" is a "special power" and that they can adapt to anything? The most stunning example of this nonsense is the recurring trekkie claim that a Borg cube could shake off a Death Star superlaser blast once a previous cube had been destroyed, because it would have "transmitted enough information to the collective to make the other cubes immune." If you can read and understand the various multi-syllable words in this paragraph, then I am sure that you can see how obviously unscientific and oversimplistic the "superhero Borg" mentality is.
Working through some issues there? Slick side attack, I am impressed. Can't win the argument go for the personal attack.
Asherian Command wrote:No Borg would not work again. Their ships are like flys against a FREAKING SUN! The imperium being the sun. As the star trek universe has no weapon that can pierce warp shields and all the imperium has to do is send in a Ship and turn on the self destruct button. Borg weapons may be able to cut through steel. But not adamantium. Which is 5x more denser than titanium.
The IoM has no weapons that the borg could absorb. One shot from a lance. Dead.
And not only that but only one race of beings could f--king rape the imperium of man...
The Reapers!
I mean seriously! Mass effect ships are 2 kilometres long. And they get owned. By a freaking space octopus!
Nothing in the 40k universe Could resist 500,000 of these bastards. as they are AI's and their armor is almost impenetrable.
Also guys i have been noticing you guys have been like freaking attacking each other with clubs. Please calm down, its not like the world revolves around this discussion. Please be more considerate and more thoughtful in your posts please.
Reapers have less firepower than IOM,probably in double digit gigatons or triple digit gigatons.
O.o
Really? Because they blow up entire planets With one reaper.
Plus I also noticed at the ship website that there was no Emperor Class ship or Apocalypse class ship. Which is freaking huge.
keezus wrote:Hey gang... thought I might jump in here for a second and note that according to this useful tool: http://www.merzo.net/
Re: The Borg... The cube has the advantage in high speed combat. If it tractor-beams ANYTHING, its advantage is lost. I'm fairly sure the projectile ordinance from an Imperial Capital ship would probably one-shot the cube, considering the Enterprise's puny torpedoes could damage them.
What's puny about Photon Torpedoes?
They're pretty brutal, man. Antimatter makes a big boom.
A boom of measly 64 megatons.
Asherian Command wrote:Also guys i have been noticing you guys have been like freaking attacking each other with clubs. Please calm down, its not like the world revolves around this discussion. Please be more considerate and more thoughtful in your posts please.
I disagree. I thought we were getting along quite nicely.
Now that I'm thinking about it, Q could also whipsmack the IoM by himself.
I didn't know why I didn't think of that sooner. Star Trek is definitely > IoM.
IvanTih wrote:No,I'm just tired of Borg spankers.
I understand that your worldview has been shaken to it's core.
Why don't we take a deep breath, admit the The Borg's technological superiority puts them in a class above the Imperial Navy, and we'll all feel a lot better about this.
Yes, a Lance strike blows up the first cube but then that's it. It'll be the first and last cube to go that way. Missiles, torpedoes and mass drivers will still work but a cube can take 78% structural damage and keep fighting.
Asherian Command wrote:No Borg would not work again. Their ships are like flys against a FREAKING SUN! The imperium being the sun. As the star trek universe has no weapon that can pierce warp shields and all the imperium has to do is send in a Ship and turn on the self destruct button. Borg weapons may be able to cut through steel. But not adamantium. Which is 5x more denser than titanium.
The IoM has no weapons that the borg could absorb. One shot from a lance. Dead.
And not only that but only one race of beings could f--king rape the imperium of man...
The Reapers!
I mean seriously! Mass effect ships are 2 kilometres long. And they get owned. By a freaking space octopus!
Nothing in the 40k universe Could resist 500,000 of these bastards. as they are AI's and their armor is almost impenetrable.
Also guys i have been noticing you guys have been like freaking attacking each other with clubs. Please calm down, its not like the world revolves around this discussion. Please be more considerate and more thoughtful in your posts please.
Reapers have less firepower than IOM,probably in double digit gigatons or triple digit gigatons.
O.o
Really? Because they blow up entire planets With one reaper.
Plus I also noticed at the ship website that there was no Emperor Class ship or Apocalypse class ship. Which is freaking huge.
Yes I know that,but I wonder why was the hull penetrated after shields failed?
Automatically Appended Next Post:
KamikazeCanuck wrote:Yes, a Lance strike blows up the first cube but then that's it. It'll be the first and last cube to go that way. Missiles, torpedoes and mass drivers will still work but a cube can take 78% structural damage and keep fighting.
All of those weapon will one shot cube,Borg adaptation isn't god like.
keezus wrote:Hey gang... thought I might jump in here for a second and note that according to this useful tool: http://www.merzo.net/
Clicking on the -10 tab shows the relative sizes of the ships. Note the comparative size of the COBRA to the Shadow/Vorlons and the comparative size of the Retribution class to the Borg. While possibly a threat to the escort classes (and below), I'm not sure the Vorlons/Shadows have the firepower to threaten the bigger craft.
Re: The Borg... The cube has the advantage in high speed combat. If it tractor-beams ANYTHING, its advantage is lost. I'm fairly sure the projectile ordinance from an Imperial Capital ship would probably one-shot the cube, considering the Enterprise's puny torpedoes could damage them.
Advantages: Assimilation of alien technologies to add to their arsenal. Group mind alows for greater processing power when trying to find solutions for problems. Subspace communications alows for huge amounts of bandwidth for data exchange. Cybernetic enhancement gives drones resistance (not immunity) to harsh elements. Extensive use of nanomachines alows for swift expansion of the collective as well as rapid fashioning of new equipment.
Disadvantages: Disruption of the collective mindset removes all their advantages leaving only seperate drones in confusion and without purpose. Even though the Borg posess enormous processing power through their group mind - its processing power is still directed by the queens and is therefore limited by the queen's imagination and innovation. The Borg appear to lack creativity, perfering to advance through assimilating new skillsets, biological enhancements and technologies. While capable of developing and synthesizing new methods, when confronted with a situation where their usual methodology fails, the Borg usually respond by increasing the amount of brute force. It is only when their foe is such that no amount of brute force can overcome them do they pursue other avenues of thought.
So while they are not omnipotent as you state, their canon advantages are not insubstantial.
Monster Rain wrote:Now that I'm thinking about it, Q could also whipsmack the IoM by himself.
I didn't know why I didn't think of that sooner. Star Trek is definitely > IoM.
IvanTih wrote:No,I'm just tired of Borg spankers.
I understand that your worldview has been shaken to it's core.
Why don't we take a deep breath, admit the The Borg's technological superiority puts them in a class above the Imperial Navy, and we'll all feel a lot better about this.
Because Q do that in every debate.
Technological superiority?
Who cares if IOM throws amount of firepower that Borg can't handle!
IvanTih wrote:All of those weapon will one shot cube,Borg adaptation isn't god like.
Actually, it pretty much is.
One Borg Cube pretty much pwnt the entire Federation, which is technologically superior to the IoM in nearly every way. They can alter their ships and bodies to not be affected by certain energy wavelengths so yeah, a Lance would one-shot a cube or two, and then they wouldn't work anymore.
Also, according to this matter doesn't even penetrate Deflector Shields so all that conventional weaponry would bounce.
@keezus
First, the obvious question: is this really a myth? Or is it the reality of Star Trek? Well, it is pretty obviously a myth. The Borg were unable to assimilate Species 8472 life forms or bioships in "Scorpion". They were unable to assimilate Data when they captured him in STFC. The Hirogen border their territory and have resisted assimilation for thousands of years. The Dyson Sphere seen in "Relics" has undoubtedly been sitting around for millions of years, given the extent to which its star's aging process had progressed, yet it showed no signs of Borg encroachment. The Voth also border Borg territory, and appear to have no fear of Borg assimilation whatsoever. We have several concrete examples of their inability to assimilate biological life forms and/or technologies. Is any more evidence necessary? The Borg obviously cannot assimilate any and every life form or technology, and we have canon proof for this conclusion.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Monster Rain wrote:
IvanTih wrote:All of those weapon will one shot cube,Borg adaptation isn't god like.
Actually, it pretty much is.
One Borg Cube pretty much pwnt the entire Federation, which is technologically superior to the IoM in nearly every way. They can alter their ships and bodies to not be affected by certain energy wavelengths so yeah, a Lance would one-shot a cube or two, and then they wouldn't work anymore.
Nice try,trekkie IOM is technologicaly superior to Borg and Federation.
Borg aren't god like.
IvanTih wrote:Nice try,trekkie IOM is technologicaly superior to Borg and Federation.
Borg aren't god like.
How so?
It takes years to travel across the Galaxy for the IoM, requiring witchcraft and possible daemonic incursion. Star Trek ships, which are faster even when they aren't at Warp Speed, move considerably faster.
KamikazeCanuck wrote:Yes, a Lance strike blows up the first cube but then that's it. It'll be the first and last cube to go that way. Missiles, torpedoes and mass drivers will still work but a cube can take 78% structural damage and keep fighting.
Oh really? So if one is blown up an no message could of been sent? Then WHAT THE ! They are not freaking gods! One lance goes through them destorying everything. Leaving nothing behind! And thats from a :beep: Retrubition class the most ordinary ship in the imperium! Just imagine a Emperor Class ship. Its lances = instant win. Because they go through planets! But they are never used like that. You guys also forget the Apocalypse and the Armaggeddon class imperial ships! Those things don't give a damn what your ship has. Its weapons just pierce through everything. And not only that but they would ram your ass with their bloody hulls. As their ship armor is made out of adamantium! So why do you guys believe that the borg has made some super powerful weapon? where they defeated in Star Trek? Yes they were. Pretty easily infact. So why all the hate? I use to think Star Trek had the best ships for the longest time.... But then I saw the imperail ships and was like ":beep: thats alot of firepower. Even a Borg ship would not stand up to a lance!"
Monster Rain wrote:
IvanTih wrote:Nice try,trekkie IOM is technologicaly superior to Borg and Federation. Borg aren't god like.
How so?
It takes years to travel across the Galaxy for the IoM, requiring witchcraft and possible daemonic incursion. Star Trek ships, which are faster even when they aren't at Warp Speed, move considerably faster.
Well probably because the Imperail ships are huge! And they have more mass! Cobras are the size of startrek ships (and a little larger) and they are pretty damn fast!
@IvanTih: Its true that the Borg can't assimilate any and every life form or technology... YET. 2 notes here.
First off, even though they can't assimilate everything, it doesn't stop them from trying.
Secondly, when they can't, if their targets are thankful to have defended their borders and stay there - the Borg will leave them alone - until such time they think that they have a better chance at assimilating them.
They were unable to assimilate Species 8472 due to resistance to their normal mode of operation: nanoprobes. The aliens were fighting back and causing damage - so they moved to Phase 2: Kill Species 8472. This wasn't working too well either, despite no lack of trying. As a result, they were forced to consider other alternatives and the Voyager writers got to put a catsuit clad Jeri Ryan on the show.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Frazzled wrote:Youngin. Jake the Snake could, without taking off his sunglasses. IoM pwoned!
IvanTih wrote:Nice try,trekkie IOM is technologicaly superior to Borg and Federation.
Borg aren't god like.
How so?
It takes years to travel across the Galaxy for the IoM, requiring witchcraft and possible daemonic incursion. Star Trek ships, which are faster even when they aren't at Warp Speed, move considerably faster.
Maybe in FTL(only Borg and few other races,other just use that slow ST Warp drive).
More advanced energy generation,better medicine,robotics,weapon(vortex weaponry),superior materials and bio technology.
Automatically Appended Next Post: I wonder how are borg going to adapt to weapon which throws firepower which one shots them.It is impossible to adapt against something that throw more firepower than you can absorb.
Their shields and hull can't handle that.
IvanTih wrote:Nice try,trekkie IOM is technologicaly superior to Borg and Federation.
Borg aren't god like.
How so?
It takes years to travel across the Galaxy for the IoM, requiring witchcraft and possible daemonic incursion. Star Trek ships, which are faster even when they aren't at Warp Speed, move considerably faster.
Ah At least an Imperium ship can travel across the Galaxy. A starfleet ship takes forever to just cross a tiny little quadrant of it.
IvanTih wrote:Nice try,trekkie IOM is technologicaly superior to Borg and Federation.
Borg aren't god like.
How so?
It takes years to travel across the Galaxy for the IoM, requiring witchcraft and possible daemonic incursion. Star Trek ships, which are faster even when they aren't at Warp Speed, move considerably faster.
Ah At least an Imperium ship can travel across the Galaxy. A starfleet ship takes forever to just cross a tiny little quadrant of it.
It takes 10-40 days to cross 10k light years for a troop transport.-That's from 2nd Edition of the Imperial Guard codex
Monster Rain wrote:The novels are really inconsistent man. I wouldn't want to use them as proof of anything, unless you'll allow for one World Eaters captain to be able to whoop up on a disgusting number of Word Bearers.
or some tribesmen with bows take out some chaos marines.
Hahahah very true.... how can an iron dart (albeit with unknown moth venom) take down a CSM fully armored... its like the rain... yeah you notice you got hit but it can't kill you unless you get really really lucky.
Because he wasn't fully armoured. Remember everyone if you get your own suit of power armour wear your helmut!
IvanTih wrote:Nice try,trekkie IOM is technologicaly superior to Borg and Federation.
Borg aren't god like.
How so?
It takes years to travel across the Galaxy for the IoM, requiring witchcraft and possible daemonic incursion. Star Trek ships, which are faster even when they aren't at Warp Speed, move considerably faster.
Maybe in FTL(only Borg and few other races,other just use that slow ST Warp drive).
More advanced energy generation,better medicine,robotics,weapon(vortex weaponry),superior materials and bio technology.
Let's see... ST Warp Drive, at Warp 10, takes you 132 Light Years in one Month. Without the need for Voodoo.
Energy Generation? Romulans have a black hole powering every single one of their Warbirds so ST wins. Better medicine? In the IoM? You need to learn more about ST before you even try going down that road. There's way too much wrong with that statement for me to explain here. The other stuff just seems tacked on.
And again, matter doesn't penetrate deflector shields so the IoM can shoot missiles at the Borg all day, it won't bother them.
IvanTih wrote:Nice try,trekkie IOM is technologicaly superior to Borg and Federation. Borg aren't god like.
How so?
It takes years to travel across the Galaxy for the IoM, requiring witchcraft and possible daemonic incursion. Star Trek ships, which are faster even when they aren't at Warp Speed, move considerably faster.
Ah At least an Imperium ship can travel across the Galaxy. A starfleet ship takes forever to just cross a tiny little quadrant of it.
FINALLY! The Imperium FTL is pretty damn good! The only reason why it takes years for one ship to get across a entire gaxaly is because they have to literally navigate around the warpstorms. Its only unreliable because of daemon incursions. In the prehersey they did not have to worry alot about it. Dude the imperium medicine is actually pretty decent. They are just faced with freaking super viruses that would wipe out an entire species! When an imperial guardsmen arm is shot off they just replace with it bionics. But this bionics is pretty different from other bionics in other gaxalies. It acts like the original thing and it works pretty well. And people in the 40k universe only get eye bionics just because it looks cool..
Monster Rain wrote:The novels are really inconsistent man. I wouldn't want to use them as proof of anything, unless you'll allow for one World Eaters captain to be able to whoop up on a disgusting number of Word Bearers.
or some tribesmen with bows take out some chaos marines.
Hahahah very true.... how can an iron dart (albeit with unknown moth venom) take down a CSM fully armored... its like the rain... yeah you notice you got hit but it can't kill you unless you get really really lucky.
Because he wasn't fully armoured. Remember everyone if you get your own suit of power armour wear your helmut!
I think that models aren't accurate representation of SM,because in novels they generally wear helmets.(think of medieval art whose purpose is to make something more glorious,that same for that 40k art in Codexes and Rulebooks).
IvanTih wrote:Nice try,trekkie IOM is technologicaly superior to Borg and Federation.
Borg aren't god like.
How so?
It takes years to travel across the Galaxy for the IoM, requiring witchcraft and possible daemonic incursion. Star Trek ships, which are faster even when they aren't at Warp Speed, move considerably faster.
Maybe in FTL(only Borg and few other races,other just use that slow ST Warp drive).
More advanced energy generation,better medicine,robotics,weapon(vortex weaponry),superior materials and bio technology.
Let's see... ST Warp Drive, at Warp 10, takes you 132 Light Years in one Month. Without the need for Voodoo.
Energy Generation? Romulans have a black hole powering every single one of their Warbirds so ST wins. Better medicine? In the IoM? You need to learn more about ST before you even try going down that road. There's way too much wrong with that statement for me to explain here. The other stuff just seems tacked on.
And again, matter doesn't penetrate deflector shields so the IoM can shoot missiles at the Borg all day, it won't bother them.
Are you [Mod edit to remove an unpleasant word]? Read the comment above for FTL speeds.
If those Romulan black hole generators are so awesome why haven they conquered ST galaxy.
Adamantium is clearly stronger than ST materials.
Deflector shields fail against measly megatons,how are they going to resist 40k firepower?
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Monster Rain wrote:Oh man, I misread the graphic.
Warp 10 allows you to exist everywhere in the universe simultaneously.
Firstly, the question about borg assimilation isn't really valid. Who care who or what borg can ssimilate, what has been clearly shown is that borg can and do assimilate humans and human technology with great rapidity and ease.
Secondly, whether or not borg can adapt to the directed energy weapons of the IoM doesn't matter, IoM has enough guns to really screw up their day.
Thirdly, teleporters, 40K adherents have absolutely no proof that void shields would stop borg teleporters, in the same way that borg adherents have no proof that they would be able to ignore them. We have a simple statement. Borg may teleport through shields. They have never shown any of the common limitations displayed by SF and I believe in one (early) episode it was stated that they didn't function in the same a federation teleporters did.
Since, for the purpose of the discussion we accept the abilities of each others 'races' this statement holds true in both universes. Ergo Borg, on the balance of probabilities, can teleport through void shields.
Fourthly, space combat, if a borg cube goes up against a IoM ship in head to head combat, sorry IoM wins. While I don't think that the cube has sufficent enough mass to detonate a direct effect warhead, it's going to have a lot of holes in it.
Lastly, Ivan please calm down, calling one side of an internet discussion a bunch of spankers I'm sure has already garnered complaints against you, and very possibly the exact same thing could be said of the 40K side.
KamikazeCanuck wrote:Yes, a Lance strike blows up the first cube but then that's it. It'll be the first and last cube to go that way. Missiles, torpedoes and mass drivers will still work but a cube can take 78% structural damage and keep fighting.
Oh really? So if one is blown up an no message could of been sent? Then WHAT THE ! They are not freaking gods! One lance goes through them destorying everything. Leaving nothing behind! And thats from a :beep: Retrubition class the most ordinary ship in the imperium! Just imagine a Emperor Class ship. Its lances = instant win. Because they go through planets! But they are never used like that. You guys also forget the Apocalypse and the Armaggeddon class imperial ships! Those things don't give a damn what your ship has. Its weapons just pierce through everything. And not only that but they would ram your ass with their bloody hulls. As their ship armor is made out of adamantium! So why do you guys believe that the borg has made some super powerful weapon? where they defeated in Star Trek? Yes they were. Pretty easily infact. So why all the hate?
I use to think Star Trek had the best ships for the longest time.... But then I saw the imperail ships and was like ":beep: thats alot of firepower. Even a Borg ship would not stand up to a lance!"
Monster Rain wrote:
IvanTih wrote:Nice try,trekkie IOM is technologicaly superior to Borg and Federation.
Borg aren't god like.
How so?
It takes years to travel across the Galaxy for the IoM, requiring witchcraft and possible daemonic incursion. Star Trek ships, which are faster even when they aren't at Warp Speed, move considerably faster.
Well probably because the Imperail ships are huge! And they have more mass! Cobras are the size of startrek ships (and a little larger) and they are pretty damn fast!
What? Lances do not go through planets. One lance cannot even take out an escort size vessel. A Standard issue borg cube is 28 square km. They're pretty tough. Plus they can have shields and armour.
AndrewC wrote:Firstly, the question about borg assimilation isn't really valid. Who care who or what borg can ssimilate, what has been clearly shown is that borg can and do assimilate humans and human technology with great rapidity and ease.
Secondly, whether or not borg can adapt to the directed energy weapons of the IoM doesn't matter, IoM has enough guns to really screw up their day.
Thirdly, teleporters, 40K adherents have absolutely no proof that void shields would stop borg teleporters, in the same way that borg adherents have no proof that they would be able to ignore them. We have a simple statement. Borg may teleport through shields. They have never shown any of the common limitations displayed by SF and I believe in one (early) episode it was stated that they didn't function in the same a federation teleporters did.
Since, for the purpose of the discussion we accept the abilities of each others 'races' this statement holds true in both universes. Ergo Borg, on the balance of probabilities, can teleport through void shields.
Fourthly, space combat, if a borg cube goes up against a IoM ship in head to head combat, sorry IoM wins. While I don't think that the cube has sufficent enough mass to detonate a direct effect warhead, it's going to have a lot of holes in it.
Lastly, Ivan please calm down, calling one side of an internet discussion a bunch of spankers I'm sure has already garnered complaints against you, and very possibly the exact same thing could be said of the 40K side.
Cheers
Andrew
I get angered when someone says that megaton level ships can go against teraton firepower ships.
Naval shoutguns will make fine red podwer of the Borg droness plus the ratings which are often recuited from hives.
I'm not the one making personal attacks over something this silly, so no.
Go calm down for a bit.
IvanTih wrote:
AndrewC wrote:Firstly, the question about borg assimilation isn't really valid. Who care who or what borg can ssimilate, what has been clearly shown is that borg can and do assimilate humans and human technology with great rapidity and ease.
Secondly, whether or not borg can adapt to the directed energy weapons of the IoM doesn't matter, IoM has enough guns to really screw up their day.
Thirdly, teleporters, 40K adherents have absolutely no proof that void shields would stop borg teleporters, in the same way that borg adherents have no proof that they would be able to ignore them. We have a simple statement. Borg may teleport through shields. They have never shown any of the common limitations displayed by SF and I believe in one (early) episode it was stated that they didn't function in the same a federation teleporters did.
Since, for the purpose of the discussion we accept the abilities of each others 'races' this statement holds true in both universes. Ergo Borg, on the balance of probabilities, can teleport through void shields.
Fourthly, space combat, if a borg cube goes up against a IoM ship in head to head combat, sorry IoM wins. While I don't think that the cube has sufficent enough mass to detonate a direct effect warhead, it's going to have a lot of holes in it.
Lastly, Ivan please calm down, calling one side of an internet discussion a bunch of spankers I'm sure has already garnered complaints against you, and very possibly the exact same thing could be said of the 40K side.
Cheers
Andrew
I get angered when someone says that megaton level ships can go against teraton firepower ships.
Naval shoutguns will make fine red podwer of the Borg droness plus the ratings which are often recuited from hives.
You can get as mad as you want, Clarence.
It still won't change the fact that matter based weapons don't penetrate deflector shields.
What? Lances do not go through planets. One lance cannot even take out an escort size vessel. A Standard issue borg cube is 28 square km. They're pretty tough. Plus they can have shields and armour.
Monster Rain wrote:The novels are really inconsistent man. I wouldn't want to use them as proof of anything, unless you'll allow for one World Eaters captain to be able to whoop up on a disgusting number of Word Bearers.
or some tribesmen with bows take out some chaos marines.
Hahahah very true.... how can an iron dart (albeit with unknown moth venom) take down a CSM fully armored... its like the rain... yeah you notice you got hit but it can't kill you unless you get really really lucky.
Because he wasn't fully armoured. Remember everyone if you get your own suit of power armour wear your helmut!
I think that models aren't accurate representation of SM,because in novels they generally wear helmets.(think of medieval art whose purpose is to make something more glorious,that same for that 40k art in Codexes and Rulebooks).
I'm talking about that guy in that story.
Anyways it's a personal preference. It's very true that Space Wolves almost never wear helmuts. They feel it hinders them more than helps them.
It still won't change the fact that matter based weapons don't penetrate deflector shields.
Give a quote that says that,a source.
Then why did asteroid penetrate the shuttle shields in DS9?
So why aren't they flying around at Warp speed and ramming everything with their no-limits fallacy uber matter-proof shields?
Remember Nemesis when Enterprise rammed through Scimitar's shields?
Neither matter nor highly-concentrated energy could normally penetrate a shield. When shields are "up," or energized at a high level, most matter or energy that comes into contact with the shields will be harmlessly deflected away.
Neither matter nor highly-concentrated energy could normally penetrate a shield. When shields are "up," or energized at a high level, most matter or energy that comes into contact with the shields will be harmlessly deflected away.
Monster Rain wrote:
Neither matter nor highly-concentrated energy could normally penetrate a shield. When shields are "up," or energized at a high level, most matter or energy that comes into contact with the shields will be harmlessly deflected away.
There's a difference between "most matter" and the broadside payload of Retribution Class Battleship. And ramming a Federation ship with an Imperial Battleship (or heck even a cruiser) would be great fun.
Monster Rain wrote:
Neither matter nor highly-concentrated energy could normally penetrate a shield. When shields are "up," or energized at a high level, most matter or energy that comes into contact with the shields will be harmlessly deflected away.
There's a difference between "most matter" and the broadside payload of Retribution Class Battleship. And ramming a Federation ship with an Imperial Battleship (or heck even a cruiser) would be great fun.
A voice reason.
I will continiue debate later as I must go to sleep.
Neither matter nor highly-concentrated energy could normally penetrate a shield. When shields are "up," or energized at a high level, most matter or energy that comes into contact with the shields will be harmlessly deflected away.
Unfortunately the operative word in that sentence is most the rest of the shot would, in all probability, render the ship combat ineffective.
KamikazeCanuck wrote:
What? Lances do not go through planets. One lance cannot even take out an escort size vessel. A Standard issue borg cube is 28 square km. They're pretty tough. Plus they can have shields and armour.
Dude thats not true at all!
They are not 28 km!
THAT IS FREAKING RIDICULOUS!
A BLOODY EMPEROR CLASS SHIP IS THAT BIG!
Dude 28 km is too big.
KamikazeCanuck wrote:
What? Lances do not go through planets. One lance cannot even take out an escort size vessel. A Standard issue borg cube is 28 square km. They're pretty tough. Plus they can have shields and armour.
Dude thats not true at all!
They are not 28 km!
THAT IS FREAKING RIDICULOUS!
A BLOODY EMPEROR CLASS SHIP IS THAT BIG!
Dude 28 km is too big.
Monster Rain wrote:A Retribution Class Battleship isn't nearly fast enough to get a broadside on a Borg Cube.
A Borg cube can fight at Warp Speed now? Okay, even then all the Retribution has to do is fire all shots in all directions (entirely possible with it's lance armanent) and odds are one will hit isomething.
Asherian Command wrote:
KamikazeCanuck wrote:
What? Lances do not go through planets. One lance cannot even take out an escort size vessel. A Standard issue borg cube is 28 square km. They're pretty tough. Plus they can have shields and armour.
Dude thats not true at all!
They are not 28 km!
THAT IS FREAKING RIDICULOUS!
A BLOODY EMPEROR CLASS SHIP IS THAT BIG!
Dude 28 km is too big.
For Gods sake man, calm the feth down. Enough with the Caps Lock.
Cambak wrote:I would like to reference one of my favorite motivational posters about the U.S.A.
What does this pic have to do with anything?
BTW, this was much the same reason that the US was extremely hesitant in planning to invade Japan. Hiroshima and Nagasaki was the alternative in an attempt to intimidate Japan into surrender by bluffing the number of A-bombs they had.
All they have to do is beam onto the Imperial Navies ships, neutralize/stun the screw and anti boarding parties, place a small bomb at/near the reactor and beam out.
Does a Ship inside a Tractor Beam lose control of its weapons?
No, it just loses it's ability to move on its own.
it also immobilizes the ship throwing out the tractor beam.
so the IoM ship would, unless the Borg came in behind it, be able to fire back and at the ranges that the Tractor beams work the IoMs solid shot weapons would do some serious damage.
also, IoM ships almost never operate alone.
the Borg can't adapt to solid projectiles, which comprise 70-80% of the IoMs space bound arsenal. not the most deadly part, but certaintly the majority of the IoM ships have hundreds of solid weapons.
also, if the Borg, or any other race for that matter, showed up in the Galaxy the Eldar would likely show up and blast them with everything they got.
Another disadvantage all races besides those in the 40k universe is that they travel within the physical realm where as the IoM, and most of the 40k races, travel through an alternate dimension. undetectable by their sensors.
so the IoM could attack any conquored planets and take them right back.
the Fly may dance around, but he can't escape getting hit with the Semi-trailer sized swatter that is the Impierial guard.
Monster Rain wrote:A Retribution Class Battleship isn't nearly fast enough to get a broadside on a Borg Cube.
A Borg cube can fight at Warp Speed now? Okay, even then all the Retribution has to do is fire all shots in all directions (entirely possible with it's lance armanent) and odds are one will hit isomething.
KamikazeCanuck wrote: What? Lances do not go through planets. One lance cannot even take out an escort size vessel. A Standard issue borg cube is 28 square km. They're pretty tough. Plus they can have shields and armour.
Dude thats not true at all! They are not 28 km! THAT IS FREAKING RIDICULOUS! A BLOODY EMPEROR CLASS SHIP IS THAT BIG! Dude 28 km is too big.
Big difference in volume than length and height. 28 kilometeres is not that big compared to to a Retribution class. Plus anyway the Imperail Ships range big time
Cambak wrote:I think you are all missing something here.
"Beam me up scotty!"
All they have to do is beam onto the Imperial Navies ships, neutralize/stun the screw and anti boarding parties, place a small bomb at/near the reactor and beam out.
Yes because people armed with slik can beat imperail guardsmen who have the directly the same weaponry as the trekkies XD. Omg you forgot about terminators.... The Terminators would walk in bash everything in their way. And phasers would bounce off them
"They are not 28km", I provided you with a link that stated otherwise.
Whether it was length width or depth has little relevance.
Asherian Command wrote:
Cambak wrote:I think you are all missing something here.
"Beam me up scotty!"
All they have to do is beam onto the Imperial Navies ships, neutralize/stun the screw and anti boarding parties, place a small bomb at/near the reactor and beam out.
Yes because people armed with slik can beat imperail guardsmen who have the directly the same weaponry as the trekkies XD. Omg you forgot about terminators.... The Terminators would walk in bash everything in their way. And phasers would bounce off them
KamikazeCanuck wrote:
What? Lances do not go through planets. One lance cannot even take out an escort size vessel. A Standard issue borg cube is 28 square km. They're pretty tough. Plus they can have shields and armour.
Dude thats not true at all!
They are not 28 km!
THAT IS FREAKING RIDICULOUS!
A BLOODY EMPEROR CLASS SHIP IS THAT BIG!
Dude 28 km is too big.
Big difference in volume than length and height. 28 kilometeres is not that big compared to to a Retribution class. Plus anyway the Imperail Ships range big time
Cambak wrote:I think you are all missing something here.
"Beam me up scotty!"
All they have to do is beam onto the Imperial Navies ships, neutralize/stun the screw and anti boarding parties, place a small bomb at/near the reactor and beam out.
Yes because people armed with slik can beat imperail guardsmen who have the directly the same weaponry as the trekkies XD. Omg you forgot about terminators.... The Terminators would walk in bash everything in their way. And phasers would bounce off them
If my guardsmen's Flash Lights can kill Termies (Which they have) I think phasers set to full power can too.
"They are not 28km", I provided you with a link that stated otherwise.
Whether it was length width or depth has little relevance.
I was talking about length. As it seemed that he didn't say anything about volume. So he mistyped. And usually 28 kilometers is usually referring to length -.-
Cambak wrote:
Asherian Command wrote:
Monster Rain wrote:
Asherian Command wrote:
KamikazeCanuck wrote: What? Lances do not go through planets. One lance cannot even take out an escort size vessel. A Standard issue borg cube is 28 square km. They're pretty tough. Plus they can have shields and armour.
Dude thats not true at all! They are not 28 km! THAT IS FREAKING RIDICULOUS! A BLOODY EMPEROR CLASS SHIP IS THAT BIG! Dude 28 km is too big.
Big difference in volume than length and height. 28 kilometeres is not that big compared to to a Retribution class. Plus anyway the Imperail Ships range big time
Cambak wrote:I think you are all missing something here.
"Beam me up scotty!"
All they have to do is beam onto the Imperial Navies ships, neutralize/stun the screw and anti boarding parties, place a small bomb at/near the reactor and beam out.
Yes because people armed with slik can beat imperail guardsmen who have the directly the same weaponry as the trekkies XD. Omg you forgot about terminators.... The Terminators would walk in bash everything in their way. And phasers would bounce off them
If my guardsmen's Flash Lights can kill Termies (Which they have) I think phasers set to full power can too.
yes because a crew 500 can face off against a crew 50,000.
KamikazeCanuck wrote:
What? Lances do not go through planets. One lance cannot even take out an escort size vessel. A Standard issue borg cube is 28 square km. They're pretty tough. Plus they can have shields and armour.
Dude thats not true at all!
They are not 28 km!
THAT IS FREAKING RIDICULOUS!
A BLOODY EMPEROR CLASS SHIP IS THAT BIG!
Dude 28 km is too big.
Big difference in volume than length and height. 28 kilometeres is not that big compared to to a Retribution class. Plus anyway the Imperail Ships range big time
Cambak wrote:I think you are all missing something here.
"Beam me up scotty!"
All they have to do is beam onto the Imperial Navies ships, neutralize/stun the screw and anti boarding parties, place a small bomb at/near the reactor and beam out.
Yes because people armed with slik can beat imperail guardsmen who have the directly the same weaponry as the trekkies XD. Omg you forgot about terminators.... The Terminators would walk in bash everything in their way. And phasers would bounce off them
If my guardsmen's Flash Lights can kill Termies (Which they have) I think phasers set to full power can too.
Gretchin with a pointy stick can kill a Terminator.
On that note, I'm bowing out. I'm starting to repeat myself.
Cambak wrote:I think you are all missing something here.
"Beam me up scotty!"
All they have to do is beam onto the Imperial Navies ships, neutralize/stun the screw and anti boarding parties, place a small bomb at/near the reactor and beam out.
Wait...a handfull of crewmen with sidearms are going to stun their way through thousands (if not millions) of crew members and entire contigents of Storm Troopers specifically trained to fight on ship to ship action?
The Atlas-class warhead was a type of weapon employed by the warships of the Imperium of Man.
At the time of the Horus Heresy, several Atlas-class warheads were adapted for space to surface operations in order to disperse the Life Eater virus on Istvaan III.1 http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Lance http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Imperial_Fleet Also this creepy thing.... Again. Please read the ships. As you guys have not compared the sheer size and weaponry of the imperium ships to a trekkies.... And not to mention an entire fleet of the Imperium is like 4,000 ships. D:
Cambak wrote:I think you are all missing something here.
"Beam me up scotty!"
All they have to do is beam onto the Imperial Navies ships, neutralize/stun the screw and anti boarding parties, place a small bomb at/near the reactor and beam out.
Wait...a handfull of crewmen with sidearms are going to stun their way through thousands (if not millions) of crew members and entire contigents of Storm Troopers specifically trained to fight on ship to ship action?
Cambak wrote:I would like to step some one up to the plate.
The:
How come when I look up pics for Cylons a pic of Boba Fett pops up?
They can't even kill one Battlestar unless they hack it! And obviously the IoM can defeat the 12 colonies.
Irrelevant plot hook.
If the entire series wasn't about the colonies finding a new Earth the Cylons would so kick their ass's.
Nope, a Battlestar can stand toe to toe with a Base Ship and win. It takes several Base Ships to make the oldest battlestar in the fleet sweat. The part were they use hacking to destroy humanity is the irelevant plot point.
Cambak wrote:I would like to step some one up to the plate.
The:
How come when I look up pics for Cylons a pic of Boba Fett pops up?
They can't even kill one Battlestar unless they hack it! And obviously the IoM can defeat the 12 colonies.
Irrelevant plot hook.
If the entire series wasn't about the colonies finding a new Earth the Cylons would so kick their ass's.
Nope, a Battlestar can stand toe to toe with a Base Ship and win. It takes several Base Ships to make the oldest battlestar in the fleet sweat. The part were they use hacking to destroy humanity is the irelevant plot point.
Monster Rain wrote:
Neither matter nor highly-concentrated energy could normally penetrate a shield. When shields are "up," or energized at a high level, most matter or energy that comes into contact with the shields will be harmlessly deflected away.
There's a difference between "most matter" and the broadside payload of Retribution Class Battleship. And ramming a Federation ship with an Imperial Battleship (or heck even a cruiser) would be great fun.
A voice reason.
I will continiue debate later as I must go to sleep.
Wow, that IoM vs. The Borg debate really tuckered you out!
Monster Rain wrote:
Neither matter nor highly-concentrated energy could normally penetrate a shield. When shields are "up," or energized at a high level, most matter or energy that comes into contact with the shields will be harmlessly deflected away.
There's a difference between "most matter" and the broadside payload of Retribution Class Battleship. And ramming a Federation ship with an Imperial Battleship (or heck even a cruiser) would be great fun.
A voice reason.
I will continiue debate later as I must go to sleep.
Wow, that IoM vs. The Borg debate really tuckered you out!
Something we've ignored here is the strategy and skill level of the players.
Borg despite their age rarely innovate tactics-wise, and will not destroy a ship of an undiscovered species/culture.
The Imperium shoots first, questions much later.
The Federation has very "civilized" approach to warfare and will try to use diplomacy etc... over direct combat, when engaged in combat they will always, always fight to minimize their own casualties. They're highly empathic to the races that they meet and will offer compassion to the other side in a conflict (bar Borg obviously).
The IoM happily throws billions of lives away in a single conflict just to get the enemy in position for a deadly trap. The IoM is so large they can play this card every minute or so, and the people being sacrificed are more then happy to kamikaze the enemy.
TL;DR - How many ships can the Federation shoot down before they get PTSD, run low on supplies and get rammed to death by berzerk crews?
The one reason I would say the Star Trek Federation would have a chance is the ridiculous edge they have in space.
On the ground? None.
But in space, the Federation can fight at warp speed. Efficiently. The IoM measures speeds in terms of gravities of acceleration. IoM ships would be almost unmoving objects to the Federation, while I would highly doubt the IoM could even target the enemy.
But that being said, the Federation are kinda wimpy, and wouldn't use this wonderful advantage. Even though with it they could theoretically destroy the entire Imperial Navy without suffering a single casualty.
................................. must.................. resist........................ NerD rAGE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! On a serious note, seeing as none of his weapons can't hurt a ship, let alone a space marine... no. not masterchief. Instead, masterchiefszz get beaten the out of by a hormonal teenage neophyte.
Mattlov wrote:The one reason I would say the Star Trek Federation would have a chance is the ridiculous edge they have in space.
On the ground? None.
But in space, the Federation can fight at warp speed. Efficiently. The IoM measures speeds in terms of gravities of acceleration. IoM ships would be almost unmoving objects to the Federation, while I would highly doubt the IoM could even target the enemy.
But that being said, the Federation are kinda wimpy, and wouldn't use this wonderful advantage. Even though with it they could theoretically destroy the entire Imperial Navy without suffering a single casualty.
I don't get it. How do you calibrate your weapons at that speed? How could you even see your target?
Warhammer 40,000 vs. Dune? Who would win (scaled to where both armies have roughly equal amount of troops? Including fremen with their sand worms. I guess what I'm trying to say is "What would happen if a small force of imperial guard landed on Arrakis?".
How can the Imperium beat the Shadows? The Shadows are virtually undetectable. They will choose their battles every time. They are more than capable of corrupting the Imperium and throwing it into a civil war.
How can the Imperium beat the Vorlons? A certain human telepath altered by the Vorlons is capable of mind controlling an entire marketplace, 100+ people. We have no idea how powerful Vorlons actually are. They managed to convince an entire galaxy that they were angels/gods. They are extremely resistant to energy weapons and as beings of pure energy they are probably impervious to the vast majority of standard weapons. I doubt anything short of a nuke could even tickle them.
And what about the Mobile Infantry of Starship Troopers (just the book). They are faster, more armored, and carry more firepower than Space Marines. I don't know the exact quote, but it is stated in the book that a single trooper can easily defeat a squadron of tanks and that to use tanks against them would be pointless. Leman Russes are no bigger than the tanks they were talking about.
Two things make the Imperium a difficult opponent. The size of the Imperium and the strength of their Imperial Navy.
And you ingore the fact that Vorlons and Shadows acts are pale in comparision of what God Emperor does.
Mobile Infantry may have 2 kiloton nuke guns,but they screwed in space.
Yeah, no. The magic fanboy handwave doesn't work on me.
And how can they even beat the Minbari if they can't lock on to their ships?
But don't admit defeat. The God Emperor trumps everyone and there is no possiblity that anyone can challenge his Holiness.
"Faster than light, no left or right." IoM ship just have to keep moving and star trek ships won't even be able to target them at warp speed (I doubt they could do it anyway).
Mattlov wrote:The one reason I would say the Star Trek Federation would have a chance is the ridiculous edge they have in space.
On the ground? None.
But in space, the Federation can fight at warp speed. Efficiently. The IoM measures speeds in terms of gravities of acceleration. IoM ships would be almost unmoving objects to the Federation, while I would highly doubt the IoM could even target the enemy.
But that being said, the Federation are kinda wimpy, and wouldn't use this wonderful advantage. Even though with it they could theoretically destroy the entire Imperial Navy without suffering a single casualty.
OK, so I've said this before. If the IoM had a map of the federation -possibly after conquring the theoretical first contact, as the feds coulden't put down even a transport ship without hyper-quantum torpedoes of DOOM- this is how it would go. Every single planet in the federation gets its own personal crusier, virtually similtaniously (as, barring anomolies, warp travel is SOOOOO mush faster than warp speed) and lands a dozen regements of IG, each. 9/10 of the federation dies, of course at least one battle has to be won, because the main charecters have to be on station somewhere. (or else this curbstomp episode woulden't happen, unless the point was to have them return to a theocratic, humiliated federation, and have a planet of the apes moment before inciting rebellion) The feds would sue for peace and maybe even have it, with the proper plot armour. The borg would be much more interesting. While I know that the borg can't become magically immune to frickin' railguns, plasma weapons, and melta-cannons with a range mesured in hundreds of thousands of kilometers and would lose the first engagements horribly, in the prosess of slogging through the hundreds (if not thousands) of borg worlds, something would be assimilated eventually. This either means WTF borg IoM crusiers, or a last-ditch raid on Terra. Either way, the comparitively tiny borg collective coulden't rush the newly re-designed imperial tech into use before they are overwhelmed by severe lack of plot armour.
OTT image removed. I appreciate what you're trying to say, but that was over the line.
And how can they even beat the Minbari if they can't lock on to their ships?
Minbari travel through space lanes yes?
Besides, a cloaking device does not prevent locking on to it. And even then, the Imperium rarely locks on anyway with much of its ordinance.
But don't admit defeat. The God Emperor trumps everyone and there is no possiblity that anyone can challenge his Holiness.
Damn straight.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Amaya wrote:
Golden Sabres wrote:... IoM warp travel is faster than federation... pls read previous posts... God, why do you do this to me?
It's safer too! ;D
I'm still wondering how the Imperium can defeat a foe they can't see and that will corrupt their goverments.
It doesn't matter. I seriously doubt that they have the technology to lock their weapons onto Minbari ships.
And the Shadows would only be defeated by the Imperium if they made grievous tactical errors. Which I doubt they would. They would play it safe for centuries, millenia, however long it takes to slowly eat way at the Imperium's infrastructure before making their strike.
Amaya wrote:It doesn't matter. I seriously doubt that they have the technology to lock their weapons onto Minbari ships.
So the Imperial Navy would be fighting....like they normally do? You do realise that most Imperial ships just throw crap out and hope it hits stuff right? you need a decent enoug officer or relay to get them to lock on.
And the Shadows would only be defeated by the Imperium if they made grievous tactical errors. Which I doubt they would. They would play it safe for centuries, millenia, however long it takes to slowly eat way at the Imperium's infrastructure before making their strike.
Amaya wrote:It doesn't matter. I seriously doubt that they have the technology to lock their weapons onto Minbari ships.
So the Imperial Navy would be fighting....like they normally do? You do realise that most Imperial ships just throw crap out and hope it hits stuff right? you need a decent enoug officer or relay to get them to lock on.
And the Shadows would only be defeated by the Imperium if they made grievous tactical errors. Which I doubt they would. They would play it safe for centuries, millenia, however long it takes to slowly eat way at the Imperium's infrastructure before making their strike.
Er...whut?
Yes, it is oh so easy to hit agile ships with out having some sort of targeting array. A piece of cake.
Er....whut? What else is there to say? How can you fight an enemy you can't see?
. 
The thing is... there is none of this *spread*. If you detonate your warp drive, there is no wreckage, no nothing. The ship would be consumed and transported to the warp. Of course, vessels outside of the ship would be destroyed as well, and any left can be destoyed by 
