1795
Post by: keezus
IvanTih wrote:And we have official 610 gigaton torpedo calc.
That's exactly my point. 610 gigatons is insufficient to atomise a continent as each torpedo delivers 2.6e^21J. Boiling an ocean would require the directed output of around one million torpedos. Water has an enthalpy of vaporization of 40.65kJ/mol. Atomising a continent would require significantly more torpedos. The Earth's crust is mostly Silicon Dioxide. Silicon has an enthalpy of vaporization of 359kJ/mol. Silicon is also 2.3x denser than water. So we'd probaby be looking at maybe 14x (conservative?) A ship firing a broadside of a 14 million torpedos seems beyond the scope of even 40k. Ergo, either the 610GT figure is wrong, or the claim that a torpedo barrage can atomize a continent is wrong. I'd like to emphasize the atomize part of the quote. Crust busting melta torpedos don't atomize.
Then you have the 22PT novacannon calc at 9.2e^25. A novacannon is supposed to be the upper end of starship weapons. So large and unwieldy that they're only fitted to the largest ships. Without knowing how long the "beam cannon" capable of vaporizing the oceans of a world is firing for, all we know is that the power needed is around 20x the power of the most powerful starship gun one will normally encounter in the IoM. The novacannon is also problematic in that it is a projectile weapon. Does the void shield stop it or not. If it doesn't, then I'm not sure what good torpedos are, as even at 610GT, they on the magnitude of are 10x^5x weaker. This difference in magnitude is about equavalent to comparing the impact of an AK-47 round vs the impact of a 55ton aircraft at landing speed. As you might note, the former isn't going to do much damage to something designed to withstand the latter... Ergo, either the novacannon numbers are wrong, or the torpedo numbers are wrong.
While I know you are horribly enamoured of Connor's calcs... I'd take them with a grain of salt considering that despite GW's writers lack of consistency with following established continuity, he's opted to err towards the upper limits of the numbers rather than take a more conservative stand.
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Post by: Asherian Command
You know. Its really getting kinda well, rough won't?
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Post by: Kilkrazy
I reckon a Wild Card character out of Savage Worlds Thrilling Tales could do it.
On the grounds that they can't die, and always escape to fight another day.
20700
Post by: IvanTih
keezus wrote:IvanTih wrote:And we have official 610 gigaton torpedo calc.
That's exactly my point. 610 gigatons is insufficient to atomise a continent as each torpedo delivers 2.6e^21J. Boiling an ocean would require the directed output of around one million torpedos. Water has an enthalpy of vaporization of 40.65kJ/mol. Atomising a continent would require significantly more torpedos. The Earth's crust is mostly Silicon Dioxide. Silicon has an enthalpy of vaporization of 359kJ/mol. Silicon is also 2.3x denser than water. So we'd probaby be looking at maybe 14x (conservative?) A ship firing a broadside of a 14 million torpedos seems beyond the scope of even 40k. Ergo, either the 610GT figure is wrong, or the claim that a torpedo barrage can atomize a continent is wrong. I'd like to emphasize the atomize part of the quote. Crust busting melta torpedos don't atomize.
Then you have the 22PT novacannon calc at 9.2e^25. A novacannon is supposed to be the upper end of starship weapons. So large and unwieldy that they're only fitted to the largest ships. Without knowing how long the "beam cannon" capable of vaporizing the oceans of a world is firing for, all we know is that the power needed is around 20x the power of the most powerful starship gun one will normally encounter in the IoM. The novacannon is also problematic in that it is a projectile weapon. Does the void shield stop it or not. If it doesn't, then I'm not sure what good torpedos are, as even at 610GT, they on the magnitude of are 10x^5x weaker. This difference in magnitude is about equavalent to comparing the impact of an AK-47 round vs the impact of a 55ton aircraft at landing speed. As you might note, the former isn't going to do much damage to something designed to withstand the latter... Ergo, either the novacannon numbers are wrong, or the torpedo numbers are wrong.
While I know you are horribly enamoured of Connor's calcs... I'd take them with a grain of salt considering that despite GW's writers lack of consistency with following established continuity, he's opted to err towards the upper limits of the numbers rather than take a more conservative stand.
Those 22 petatons are kinetic impact,not the explosive warhead IIRC:
Hellfire aren't only class of torpedoes used by the Imperium.
Connor attempts to be conservative.He said 40k is on par with SW.Again we have Horus Heresy as example.
Those torpedoes from Nemesis are Cyclonic.
@AndrewC
Those 690 gigatons contradict everything we see on screen.
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Post by: Asherian Command
Doesn't the Imperium also use Novacannons? Hellmissles? Yeah Imperial weapons are quite diverse, they don't use the same weapon every time that would be stupid.
It would be stupid, if the imperium only had one weapon to use in ship to ship combat. As the Necrons and the Eldar, Would develop armor that could deflect it.
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Post by: IvanTih
Asherian Command wrote:Doesn't the Imperium also use Novacannons? Hellmissles? Yeah Imperial weapons are quite diverse, they don't use the same weapon every time that would be stupid.
It would be stupid, if the imperium only had one weapon to use in ship to ship combat. As the Necrons and the Eldar, Would develop armor that could deflect it.
No way,you can't deflect torpedo.
Necrons are the foe which is an order of magnitude above IOM.Since I remember about Necron escorts destroying Chaos cruisers.
Eldar have more powerful weapon,but the downside is the durability.
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Post by: Asherian Command
Hellfire missles are torpedoes. They are used on gunships. Are you talking about the Torpedoes used by Grand Cruisers, Cruisers, Battleships? Yeah I think there should be more variety of weapons!
DAMN YOU GW MAKE MORE BATTLE FLEET GOTHIC LORE! IT IS TOO BOARD!
20700
Post by: IvanTih
Asherian Command wrote:Hellfire missles are torpedoes. They are used on gunships. Are you talking about the Torpedoes used by Grand Cruisers, Cruisers, Battleships? Yeah I think there should be more variety of weapons!
DAMN YOU GW MAKE MORE BATTLE FLEET GOTHIC LORE! IT IS TOO BOARD!
Yeah those are torpedoes used by larger ships and they are worth 1 point of damage.
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Post by: Asherian Command
IvanTih wrote:Asherian Command wrote:Hellfire missles are torpedoes. They are used on gunships. Are you talking about the Torpedoes used by Grand Cruisers, Cruisers, Battleships? Yeah I think there should be more variety of weapons!
DAMN YOU GW MAKE MORE BATTLE FLEET GOTHIC LORE! IT IS TOO BOARD!
Yeah those are torpedoes used by larger ships and they are worth 1 point of damage.
They are? What The Gak? Don't Gunships have the same thing? Then Why are they called the same thing? Wow GW you fail sometimes :(
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Post by: IvanTih
Asherian Command wrote:IvanTih wrote:Asherian Command wrote:Hellfire missles are torpedoes. They are used on gunships. Are you talking about the Torpedoes used by Grand Cruisers, Cruisers, Battleships? Yeah I think there should be more variety of weapons!
DAMN YOU GW MAKE MORE BATTLE FLEET GOTHIC LORE! IT IS TOO BOARD!
Yeah those are torpedoes used by larger ships and they are worth 1 point of damage.
They are? What The Gak? Don't Gunships have the same thing? Then Why are they called the same thing? Wow GW you fail sometimes :(
Those gunboats are grand cruisers.
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Post by: KamikazeCanuck
Why all these pages on who can destroy planets better? A war is not about who can blow up the most planets. An eye for an eye makes the whole world....blown up planets!
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Post by: IvanTih
KamikazeCanuck wrote:Why all these pages on who can destroy planets better? A war is not about who can blow up the most planets. An eye for an eye makes the whole world....blown up planets!
I just provide info.Imperium can do exterminatus via brute force(sterilise entire planets via ship's weaponry or melt crust).
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Post by: Commissar Agro
Necroman wrote:It's kinda funny how these threads always go.
Grey Templar wrote:and we agreed earlier that any race capable of time travel is out because time travel is cheating.
Time Travel is impossable because if the Dalek traveled back in time to erase the IoM from existing then they wouldn't have needed to travel back in time to erase them. Therefore the IoM exists.
The Daleks don't need time travel to win.
They already have a weapon that rips apart every atom in the universe. I'd say that's enough.
But to use the reality bomb, they must 1st steal 26 planets from time, by using time travel based technology they go against the rules of this debate and thus are disqualfied from being said to defeat the IoM because they can use time travel.
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Post by: IvanTih
Commissar Agro wrote:Necroman wrote:It's kinda funny how these threads always go.
Grey Templar wrote:and we agreed earlier that any race capable of time travel is out because time travel is cheating.
Time Travel is impossable because if the Dalek traveled back in time to erase the IoM from existing then they wouldn't have needed to travel back in time to erase them. Therefore the IoM exists.
The Daleks don't need time travel to win.
They already have a weapon that rips apart every atom in the universe. I'd say that's enough.
But to use the reality bomb, they must 1st steal 26 planets from time, by using time travel based technology they go against the rules of this debate and thus are disqualfied from being said to defeat the IoM because they can use time travel.
Daleks have superior ships and an average Dalek is far more durable than the Space Marine.
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Post by: Samus_aran115
I bet winnie the poo could kick the crap out of a couple thousand marines...Or the wicked witch of the west...Or donald trump!
DONALD TRUMP FTW
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Post by: Asherian Command
Well Lets see what could beat the IoM! Ah I know! Furries, Toonami, Gundam wing....
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Post by: IvanTih
Samus_aran115 wrote:I bet winnie the poo could kick the crap out of a couple thousand marines...Or the wicked witch of the west...Or donald trump!
DONALD TRUMP FTW
That's interesting because all of them can be warp entities who wield great power.
Donald Trump seems more like a Daemon Prince(of bad hairstyles) than true warp entity. Automatically Appended Next Post: Asherian Command wrote:Well Lets see what could beat the IoM! Ah I know! Furries, Toonami, Gundam wing....
Gundam,never in short.
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Post by: Asherian Command
Toonami then?
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Post by: IvanTih
Asherian Command wrote:Toonami then?
Can you provide links about that anime and the other one which you referenced?
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Post by: Samus_aran115
donald trump IS a minor chaos god...Of entrepreneurship!
Gundams could be easily shot to pieces by a couple hydras or basilisks. Lascannons would totally wreck them too. It really doesn't matter what they're doing either. If you're flying around, they have ships for that. If you're in space, they have ships for that.
As much as I love gundams, they'd lose against the IOM. Especially because a single shot to the chest of the gundam= death!
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Post by: Asherian Command
Hahahah Toonami isn't a show XD.
Its a TV producer group that had a robot called tom. And a AI call "I can't remember"
Either that or we could face the IoM vs the One
http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0267804/
Lol. I'm Joking.
How about the Predators and Aliens teaming up?
20700
Post by: IvanTih
Asherian Command wrote:Hahahah Toonami isn't a show XD.
Its a TV producer group that had a robot called tom. And a AI call "I can't remember"
Either that or we could face the IoM vs the One
http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0267804/
Lol. I'm Joking.
How about the Predators and Aliens teaming up?
They get shot by Space Marine,mind raped by psykers and burned by the Inquisition.
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Post by: Asherian Command
IvanTih wrote:Asherian Command wrote:Hahahah Toonami isn't a show XD. Its a TV producer group that had a robot called tom. And a AI call "I can't remember" Either that or we could face the IoM vs the One http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0267804/ Lol. I'm Joking. How about the Predators and Aliens teaming up?
They get shot by Space Marine,mind raped by psykers and burned by the Inquisition. The One,I really have no idea.
He can bend time..... So I don't know. But so can Librarians. Yeah. You guys cleared me of races.... Apart from the Chozo. I also have a list of races we can choose from http://aliens.wikia.com/wiki/Alien_Species_Gallery
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Post by: Melissia
Librarians can SLIGHTLY manipulate time.
Primaris psykers can stop time.
One of the most useful Primaris Psyker powers is the ability to create regions of stopped time, usually around one's opponents. However, it can also function as completely impenetrable barriers-- the region cannot be penetrated or damaged by any means until the timestop ends.
A Primaris Psyker could block a nova cannon shot with that. Fun times!
17923
Post by: Asherian Command
Melissia wrote:Librarians can SLIGHTLY manipulate time.
Primaris psykers can stop time.
One of the most useful Primaris Psyker powers is the ability to create regions of stopped time, usually around one's opponents. However, it can also function as completely impenetrable barriers-- the region cannot be penetrated or damaged by any means until the timestop ends.
A Primaris Psyker could block a nova cannon shot with that. Fun times!
Ah So Tigruius, and Malicith and Malnar are Primaris Psykers?
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Post by: Melissia
No, they're Marines.
Marines can't be primaris psykers 
29408
Post by: Melissia
At least until he gets mind-raped by a daemon or forced into a stable time loop by a psyker, or just... frozen in time for eternity.
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Post by: sniperjolly
Read the OP, Goku is SPECIFICALLY ruled out of this discussion, by name.
For the purposes of discussion, my bet is that it goes like this; he would wipe out 3/4 of the IoM, untill he met his first vortex missile, and, thinking that he could just shrug it off like everything else in the entire universe. He doesn't bother dodging, gets sucked into the warp, and becomes either A) the plaything of the gods B) the favored of Khorn after bear wrestleing Angron and Anngrath to the floor at once, one armed, or C) a major player in the warp's balance of power.
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Post by: Grey Templar
29408
Post by: Melissia
Who subsequently tricks him into doing Lukas' bidding and then bangs his wife.
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Post by: keezus
sniperjolly wrote:Read the OP, Goku is SPECIFICALLY ruled out of this discussion, by name.
True dat, but considering that:
1. I am the OP and
2. This discussion has completely gone off the rails...
I didn't see any reason why not.
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Post by: AndrewC
IvanTih wrote:I think the TMs are best treated as background material to fill gaps in our knowledge, but we should be leery of relying on them or elevating them as a go-to source.
Much to my surprise the TMs are considered canon.
Apparently Viacom, the company who own Paramount made a statement via one of their Directors, or at least the Director made a statement that the 'non-fiction' reference books were considered canon in 2005.
Cheers
Andrew
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Post by: Ledabot
This is getting a bit silly.
Goku?
He cant die cos hes a main character so whats the point in discusing it except for how he would win.
20700
Post by: IvanTih
AndrewC wrote:IvanTih wrote:I think the TMs are best treated as background material to fill gaps in our knowledge, but we should be leery of relying on them or elevating them as a go-to source.
Much to my surprise the TMs are considered canon.
Apparently Viacom, the company who own Paramount made a statement via one of their Directors, or at least the Director made a statement that the 'non-fiction' reference books were considered canon in 2005.
Cheers
Andrew
They're not canon. That was pretty expressly debunked by Paula Block in December 2005 - none of the books are canon, only what is on-screen is. The Jeri Taylor books were at best according to her - quasi canon- and only for as long as she was working on Voyager. Such was backed up by every Trek writer / author on the forum, and has been backed up in the past by Ronald D Moore.
Automatically Appended Next Post: keezus wrote:IvanTih wrote:Those 22 petatons are kinetic impact,not the explosive warhead IIRC:
Well GAK. That makes the 610 gigaton numbers for torpedoes even more useless vs 40k ship armor if 22 petatons doesn't cover the yield of a novacanon shot. They're already magnitudes too small for capital ships to care about considering that they've been described as being able to survive novacannon shots...
So what the feth is it? Is the novacannon number too high, or the torpedo number too low?
We have Execution Hour showing that Nova cannon can be used as kinetic weapon IIRC.
I'll do more research on Nova,but remember Nova Cannon is AOE weapon.
1795
Post by: keezus
@Ivan: Got another problem for you:
Battlefleet Gothic Armada wrote:Orks Roks are basically large asteroids hollowed out and fitted with drives, guns and crew quarters... ...For example, in 147.M41 an Imperial cruiser force swept the Kaloth system for Ork pirates and destroyed seven escort class ships and four Roks. In 148.M41 another expedition encountered twenty-one Roks in the same system and was forced to disengage after the battlecruiser Stalwart Warrior suffered crippling damage and was in danger of being overwhelmed by Ork boarding parties.
So we have here Ork ships made of asteroid, apparently able to stand up against IoM a Battlecruiser no less. According to this handy calculator: http://www.stardestroyer.net/Empire/Science/Asteroids.html, going with a 1.5km diameter to match the Cobra - it would only take 25.3 gigatons to vaporize the poor bastard assuming a nickel-iron composition. Ones made mostly of ice or rock are only a fraction as tough! This would suggest that it is not a match for the least powerful guns on an IoM ship considering the 610 gigaton torpedo calculation Connor provided, let alone overwhelm an Imperial battle group headed by a battlecruiser, number 21 or not!
-edit- Upping the size to 10km puts the energy to vaporize the ENTIRE asteroid (nickel-iron) is a mere 7.49 teratons - which should be well within the damage output of a Battlecruiser. Of course, melting it to goo takes significantly less energy, and fragmenting the ship via cratering takes even less. (A tiny fraction actually).
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Post by: Necroman
IvanTih wrote:How are they aren't meshing good,we have Caves of Ice,Cyrene crust melting and Siege of Terra where Horus boiled Terra's oceans and cracked tectonic plates.
You also forget that those are cyclonic torpedoes who are essentially technobabble weapons,who can be fitted with melta charge to rip planet apart and with warheads used to destroy the atmosphere.
Didn't Caves of Ice involve the whole planet-packed-with-promethium thing?
34612
Post by: Ledabot
Has this discussion gone off topic. I was only away for a day!
20243
Post by: Grey Templar
keezus wrote:@Ivan: Got another problem for you:
Battlefleet Gothic Armada wrote:Orks Roks are basically large asteroids hollowed out and fitted with drives, guns and crew quarters... ...For example, in 147.M41 an Imperial cruiser force swept the Kaloth system for Ork pirates and destroyed seven escort class ships and four Roks. In 148.M41 another expedition encountered twenty-one Roks in the same system and was forced to disengage after the battlecruiser Stalwart Warrior suffered crippling damage and was in danger of being overwhelmed by Ork boarding parties.
So we have here Ork ships made of asteroid, apparently able to stand up against IoM a Battlecruiser no less. According to this handy calculator: http://www.stardestroyer.net/Empire/Science/Asteroids.html, going with a 1.5km diameter to match the Cobra - it would only take 25.3 gigatons to vaporize the poor bastard assuming a nickel-iron composition. Ones made mostly of ice or rock are only a fraction as tough! This would suggest that it is not a match for the least powerful guns on an IoM ship considering the 610 gigaton torpedo calculation Connor provided, let alone overwhelm an Imperial battle group headed by a battlecruiser, number 21 or not!
-edit- Upping the size to 10km puts the energy to vaporize the ENTIRE asteroid (nickel-iron) is a mere 7.49 teratons - which should be well within the damage output of a Battlecruiser. Of course, melting it to goo takes significantly less energy, and fragmenting the ship via cratering takes even less. (A tiny fraction actually).
if the asteroid isn't solid(and no ork rok will be) an explosion inside will be more likely to blow a chunk out of the rok instead of penetrating deeper(although all vibrations will remain within the solid matter)
Ork Roks are also fitted with lots of force fields and sturctural reinforcement(as such as ork tech can provide)
there is also the ork way of "i think it can, therefor it can"
Ork tech works wonders when you belive in it 
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Post by: Necroman
Ork tech is probably the worst benchmark for actual physics ever. I mean, they can pilot airplanes in SPACE.
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Post by: Samus_aran115
8261
Post by: Pika_power
Chouginga Gurren Lagann.
This thing can attack every point in space-time simultaneously, and lower the probability of the enemy dodging.
Oh, and it's the size of a galaxy.
If they try to take the fight to the warp, there's always its big brother, Tengen Toppa Gurren Lagann.
This one uses galaxies as shruiken.
Somehow I think Spiral Power is a tad overpowered.
34612
Post by: Ledabot
yup. there broken.
20700
Post by: IvanTih
Necroman wrote:IvanTih wrote:How are they aren't meshing good,we have Caves of Ice,Cyrene crust melting and Siege of Terra where Horus boiled Terra's oceans and cracked tectonic plates.
You also forget that those are cyclonic torpedoes who are essentially technobabble weapons,who can be fitted with melta charge to rip planet apart and with warheads used to destroy the atmosphere.
Didn't Caves of Ice involve the whole planet-packed-with-promethium thing?
Yes,that's why they only caused extinction level event.
keezus wrote:@Ivan: Got another problem for you:
Battlefleet Gothic Armada wrote:Said.
That 610 gigaton is from GW,1st edtion of Space Hulk not Connor.
I am aware of fact that torpedoes are one of weaker weapons,again we have multiple sources which indicate teraton firepower.
Also we have firepower feat from Tales of Heresy.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Here's some info from Connor.
Depth and Durability of Constructions
Along with complete sterilization, it is known that many Imperium worlds are heavily built up city worlds (forge worlds and hive worlds in particular) much like coruscant (or the continetnal fortresses of Terra.) Many of those worlds may also extend hundreds or thousands of meters underground (shelters and defense installations, mines, other facilities, ,etc. Such as in Necropolis, Execution Hour, Caves of Ice, SHadow Point, etc.) In addition, the construction methods and materials available to the Imperium (to build those shelters, hive cities, etc.) are considerably greater than our own, ,and many facilities (Government capitols, hive cities, Arbites precints, etc.) may have their own forcefield defenses (Execution Hour, NightBringer, Necropolis, etc.) Much like with the Star Wars Base Delta Zero attack can require that signifigantly more firepower be applied to such destruction.
In terms of facilities, Mike's Base Delta Zero Page covers this idea. In that page, Mike mentions that the destruction of hardened facilities in modern nuclear attack simulations use a 2000 psi overpressure to ensure target destruction. The energy input figure he comes up with is 2e25 joules for this. This is only a bit below the "complete sterilization" figure above, and is (as Mike notes) quite conservative given its basis on "modern" material sand construction techniques. It could easily be an order of magnitude greater, much as it would be for Star Wars BDZ.
Additionally, there is the consideration of reaching mines or shelters. As the classical "BDZ" (the 1 hour/1 meter melting depth) calcs have traditonally indicated, reaching deeper into the planet naturally increases the energy requirement (even irerespective of melting or vaporization.) extending 100 meters down increases the energy figure by 100x, and over a kilometer depth by a factor of 1000x. Considering that some sources indicate planets like Cyrene are reduced to a molten state, this is a valid consideration. (Cyrene as a calc will be considered later.) Some may argue that "crust melting" may not be an accurate figure, and this has some merit, but there are a number of considerations to bear in mind. First, in terms of an extinction-level event, indirect effects (heating of the atmosphere by hypervelocity ejecta, for example) and inefficiencies can lead to "melting" of the crust even if the beams themselves do not do it. Asteroid impacts have shown that a substantial degree of melting (and vaporization) also occur with such events. Beam weapons such as lances are even more likely to result in this. Cyrene also indicates "melting" is a valid benchmark, as do other examples where energy weapons are mentioned in bombardment roles (Plasma weapons in execution hour, Plasma weapons melting a hive city in annihilation squad, etc.)
And as mentioned before, some Tyranids are known to bury underground to escape Exterminatus, so more extensive bombardment may be required to root them out. Tyranid infestations in the process of draining a planet of its biomass may also invade deep into a planet's crust. And as mentioned before, the Necrons tend to inhabit tombs buried many kilometers beneath a planet.
Even mundane Imperium structures like hive cities can reach kilometers beneath a planet (Kill Team), and many kinds of facilities (defence stations, mines, bunkers,etc.) can extend many hundreds of meters below ground regardless.
Exterminatus via conventional bombardment has been used on a number of occasions: The most obvious example is Cyrene, of course, but it has also been mentioned with regard to 56-Izar (Xenos). The planet attacked in Fire Warrior too was bombarded by conventional weaponry as well. The sterilization of the planet in Caves of Ice can technically be termed exterminatus even if it was not directly labeled so, and involved conventional bombardment as well. This meshes very well with the Battlefleet Gothic references to mass drivers and fusion bombs being used to conduct Exterminatus (alongside Virus bombs.)
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Post by: Commissar Streck
IwanTiH:
Regarding Firepower Calculations:
*The 610 gigaton torpedo was presented in "Space Hulk" 1st Edition. It was also retconned out in the following editions of the game.
*Cyclonic torpedoes are totally technobabble weapons. They cannot be used to quantify DET (Direct Energy Transfer) firepower of lances, etc.
*What calculation establishes that the Nova Cannon is 22 petatons? Applying a 5-ton shell mass ("multi-ton" per BFG magazine #15) and muzzle velocity of 5,000 kilometers per second (as of "Warriors of Ultramar") we get 6.25e16 Joules of kinetic energy. Around 1.5 megatons if I got my conversions right. This is almost ten orders of magitude lower than your number. Additionally, Nova cannon shells per BFG are "more powerful than a dozen plasma bombs." Which are described thusly:
Rogue Trader Tabletop wrote:A plasma bomb is a large missile typically used by or against spacecraft. They are also used for planetary sieges. The missile energises at launch, converting into a mass of seething plasma - each missile becomes a ball of boiling energy sufficient to melt a city-block. As it converts to plasma, the missile divides into 6 fragments, this enables the plasma to spread out and saturate its target. A target under plasma attack becomes a blazing inferno which only the very fortunate survive.
This is not multiteratons. More like kilotons. You can blow out a city block with conventional explosives - it was done in WWII.
*"Caves of Ice" was dialogue only talking about a firepower that was never demonstrated in the story. Further, Cain made two separate statement:
Caves of Ice wrote:Nothing in our inventory would even come close to doing the job, but an astropathic message to the nearest naval unit would bring a task force here within weeks, and a flotilla of battleships ought to be enough to level the continent. A couple of barrages from their lance batteries would be enough to excise this cancer, however deeply it was buried.
A flotilla of battleships can level a continent (timeframe and weapons used unspecified). A couple of lance salvos can destroy a Necron base (which is not the same thing).
*Please present proof that Cyrene's crust was melted (as well as the timeframe and ships involved).
As for counter arguments:
*Generally when Exterminatus is mentioned, it requires special (=technobabble) weapons such as virus bombs or cylonic torpedoes. If brute force firepower can do it, why do they need that rare tech for it?
*The example of firepower against a small Rok from "Shadow Point" militates further against teratons. Dozens of torpedoes required against the Rok. Which takes perhaps megatons to fragment according to the asteroid calculator mentioned earlier in this thread (vaporization is not necessary to destroy it, and indeed gross overkill).
*In the Blood Angels books fusion rockets in the megaton range can utterly destroy a Chaos warship in four blasts. (Although that ship had its shields down.)
*Finally, numerous sources ("Execution Hour", "Shadow Point" and many others specify that 40k warships have enough firepower to "destroy a city". With "sustained" bombardment, no less. Which is a rather interesting contradiction to the multi-teraton per shot claims.
**
Regarding power generation:
*Will you please present your evidence that plasma generators draw energy from the Warp? To my knowledge there is nothing to imply or suggest such in the canon.
*To boot, "Shadow Point" speaks explicitly of "plasma fusion" (in plasma torpedoes) and the "Blood Angels" series clearly and unambiguously shows warships (from battle barges to battleships to cruisers and frigates) to use fusion power. No mention of exotic fuels or Warp energy.
*The "stellar energy levels" from "Execution Hour" is obvious hyperbole. Its literal interpretation is contradicted by the very same book later mentioning that the "Lord Solar Macharius" (the warship with the "stellar" energies) is capable of destroying a whole city with "sustained" bombardment. If even half a per cent of e26 Joules ("stellar" energy taken literally) was ported to weapons, it would not destroy cities with "sustained" bombardment. More like destroy continents in a volley.
**
Regarding FTL speeds:
*Can you provide the quote establishing Necron speed?
*What do you base your Warp speed estimate on? In both "Space Fleet" and "Rogue Trader" it takes years to cross the galaxy. In the "Eisenhorn" books it takes a very fast ship thirty weeks to travel from Helican Sub-Sector to the Saruthi (which are on the Sector's border). Sectors as we know from BFG, of which Sub-sectors are a smaller part, are cubes 200 by 200 light years. This gives rather different figures from your estimate.
Regarding STL speeds/accelerations:
*"Sabbat Martyr" is, again, an obvious outlier. For just one thing it begs the question how a ship can even maneuver, much less hit anything, at those speeds with human reaction times, and especially without FTL sensors (which the Imperium doesn't have). For another, it meshes very badly with the typical combat ranges of "tens of thousands of kilometers" ("Shadow Point", "Execution Hour", BFG rulebook) or the torpedoes which travel at tens of meters/second ("Execution Hour" again).
*In the novels it routinely takes ships days (sometimes even weeks) to move between planets within the same system. Examples: Ultramarines novels, Angels of Darkness, aforementioned BFG duology ("Execution Hour/Shadow Point"). Sometimes it takes weaks or even months ("The Bleeding Chalice"). The "Rogue Trader" novels by Andy Hoare has max acceleration a such a low it foesn't hurt the crew when they use it and inertial compensators are off.
*Finally, the "Rogue Trader" RPG book (not the same as the above, please note) outright states max accelerations for capships is below 10 G.
**
And from a personal standpoint, a nice pointer. When you copypaste stuff from other sites, you should say it isn't your own work. Stardestroyer.Net people in particular are anal about copyright and have been known to ban people for plagiarism for much less in the past.
**
Best regards,
Commissar Streck
Thought of the day: "The Pokemon cartoon is heretical."
20700
Post by: IvanTih
From Connor.
I would generally assume "close to light-speed" to mean at least 80-90% of C. The size of a Nova cannon shell is never given precisely, but the diameter of the shell is given in other sources (50 meters in Warriors of Ultramar, though a 30 meter diameter nova cannon is mentioned. Mass can be derived by assuming the length is at least equal to the diameter, or (more probably) a multiple of the diameter (2-3x longer than the diameter, for example. A 50 meter diameter shell would be 100-150 meters long.)
Example: Going by a 50x150 meter shell made of iron (assume 30% solid, its supposed to be packed with explosive o funknown type and density) fired at ~90%of c yields a shell mass of around 770,000 tons and and a KE of 9e25 joules, putting Nova cannons well into the petaton range (~21 petatons roughly here.) In the literature, Nova Cannons are implied to "charge up" for firing just after loading, implying that the gun is charged in a matter of seconds at most.
It is also interesting to note that the recoil generated needs to be compensated for by the engines. This suggests that the recoil/output of the Nova cannon is of comparable magnitude to the output/thrust of the engines. And if you know the specifics of one, you can probably estimate the other (IE figure acceleration from ship mass and the recoil of a Nova cannon.) Taking the shell example above, the momentum would be 4.77e17 kg*m/s. If the ship in question has a 5000 gee acceleration rate the ship itself masses somethign like 9.5 billion tons. A mass far greater than implied by a number of other sources, but I tend to believe 40K ship masses are dramatically under-stated in the vast majority of cases. Given the estimated accelerations from other sources like Sabbat Martyr or Grey Knights, and estimate the mass from starship dimensions, the output of engines for a cruiser/battlecruiser grade would be high TT/low petaton range easily (consistent with the "stellar scale" outputs mentioned in Execution Hour for warp engines, which aren't as energy intensive as the realspace engines as per Ravenor which does confirm the estimates.
The explosion of a Nova cannon shell ought to be at least comparable in magnitude ot the energy expended in getting the projectile to the target(s), which suggests its petaton range, if not significantly higher. Note that if this is the case, the energy density of the explosive, like plasma reactors, must be many many times greater than conventional nuclear fusion or even antimatter, for it to be equal to or greater than what a near-c projectile provides. Then again, 40K is not a stranger to "power sources with insanely high energy densities." either.
Note that "plasma bombs" is another term used in earlier sources for torpedoes, so this might imply that a Nova cannon is equivalent to a dozen torpedoes (a double salvo, in other words.) I do find it odd they say "force", as this implies that a Nova bomb detonation has some sort of blast/pressure effects like a conventional explosive (nuclear/antimatter warheads would not have blast effects, ,becuase the blast is a result of atmospheric detonations.) which may hint at some sort of exotic mechanism, perhaps like a seismic charge (or maybe a multi-function warhead). anyhow, this would imply plasma torpedoes are in the teraton range or so (double or triple) assuming a multi-petaton nova cannon.
One thing that bothers me about Nova cannon - why do they mount only a single cannon? Given the size/diameters of the weapon, and that virtually every other 40K weapon is usually a multiple mount (torpedoes, lances, and weapons batteries are all aggregates of multiple weapons.) but why not nova cannon? It would make a bit more sense to fire at least several shells (imrpove chances of hitting and coverage, ,for one thing, as well as giving the ability to engage multiple targets.) And it owuld make interception harder. (though the combined mass/velocity of the shell may already assure that.) Also, why not make it guided? They can make guided shotgun shells, bolter rounds, autogun rounds, guided tank and artillery shells. Hell weapons battery cannons and bombardment cannon are implied to use some sort of targeted/guided shell... but why not Nova cannon?
Automatically Appended Next Post: Imperial Guard codex from 2nd edition states 10k ly in 10-40 days.
Then we have examples from Nemesis when it's said that Vengeful Spirit has energy cannon capable of boiling oceans.
Necron FTL come from quote(cross galaxy in a blink of an eye),it's the only source on them and widely accepted as their speed until new sources come.
And tell me how was 610 recontennted,in later editions we have same Hulk and same floor plans.
34762
Post by: Commissar Streck
IvanTih wrote:I would generally assume "close to light-speed" to mean at least 80-90% of C. The size of a Nova cannon shell is never given precisely, but the diameter of the shell is given in other sources (50 meters in Warriors of Ultramar, though a 30 meter diameter nova cannon is mentioned. Mass can be derived by assuming the length is at least equal to the diameter, or (more probably) a multiple of the diameter (2-3x longer than the diameter, for example. A 50 meter diameter shell would be 100-150 meters long.)
"Close to lightspeed" apparently means 5,000 kps according to "Warriors of Ultramar". It's a couple of % of c so I guess that would be acceptable.
The diameter of the shell is not given in the book he quotes. He is mistaken about that. The breech of the cannon is 50 meters, but that is quite another thing.
Example: Going by a 50x150 meter shell made of iron (assume 30% solid, its supposed to be packed with explosive o funknown type and density) fired at ~90%of c yields a shell mass of around 770,000 tons and and a KE of 9e25 joules, putting Nova cannons well into the petaton range (~21 petatons roughly here.) In the literature, Nova Cannons are implied to "charge up" for firing just after loading, implying that the gun is charged in a matter of seconds at most.
He is literally pulling the mass figures out of thin air. BFG magazine, as noted, gives masses as "multi-tons". Not hundreds of thousands of tons. 770,000 tons is the mass of a 40k battleship, not a shell. (An ironclad was at 400,000 tons in "Eisenhorn")
The rest is just unjustified speculation continuing from the figures he made up.
Imperial Guard codex from 2nd edition states 10k ly in 10-40 days.
That means they can do it sometimes, probably under good conditions. I don't see why it would necessarily be typical, especially when we have many other examples of much slower speeds.
Then we have examples from Nemesis when it's said that Vengeful Spirit has energy cannon capable of boiling oceans.
And what about the many examples of lower firepower I mentioned? There are disrepancies, but that doesn't mean the highest figure is automatically right.
Necron FTL come from quote(cross galaxy in a blink of an eye),it's the only source on them and widely accepted as their speed until new sources come.
And where does that quote come from? I've heard it said a lot, but never the source.
And tell me how was 610 recontennted,in later editions we have same Hulk and same floor plans.
Because the later editions specifically chose to drop the number in question?
**
Best regards,
Commissar Streck
Thought of the day: "The Pokemon cartoon is heretical."
20700
Post by: IvanTih
Almost every source says close to the light speed except Warriors of Ultramar.
Quote comes from Necron codex.
Problem with 40k is that it doesn't have coherent cannon policy.
34762
Post by: Commissar Streck
IvanTih wrote:Almost every source says close to the light speed except Warriors of Ultramar.
5,000 kps is almost 2 % of lightspeed. That should qualify as "close" if we're dealing with authors who aren't scientists. There is not necessarily any contradiction.
Quote comes from Necron codex.
What edition and what page, please?
Problem with 40k is that it doesn't have coherent cannon policy.
Well, you can say that again ...
**
Best regards,
Commissar Streck
Thought of the day: "The Pokemon cartoon is heretical."
20700
Post by: IvanTih
Quote is from current Necron codex,don't know which page.
34762
Post by: Commissar Streck
OK, thanks.
How do you feel about my other arguments in my first post, by the way?
**
Best regards,
Commissar Streck
Thought of the day: "The Pokemon cartoon is heretical."
1795
Post by: keezus
IvanTih wrote:Problem with 40k is that it doesn't have coherent cannon policy.
Considering that everyone acknowledges that 40k's numbers are all over the place, wouldn't it make sense to deliberately disallow any instances where calculated numbers from a few examples are contradicted by evidence from many examples?
There was an example in the earlier Star Trek thread about void shield output and how it cratered a planet. The energy needed was in the magnitude of 100x SOL output, and was disallowed, as it made no sense, considering that the novacannon's 22PT kinetic output was at 0.1 SOL output and all energy weapons were weaker.
I think the whole Rok issue highlights the problem well as no amount of structural improvements are going to increase the strength of the base rock - reinforcing the entire hull would cause the ship to cease being a rok. As well, since torpedoes ignore shields, so having shielding doesn't change the fact that a Rok according to calculations, it can't take any punishment from the IoM's weakest weapons. Cannon, unfortunately, states that they do take punishment and can in fact mount enough offense to be a serious threat!
20700
Post by: IvanTih
Commissar Streck wrote:OK, thanks.
How do you feel about my other arguments in my first post, by the way?
**
Best regards,
Commissar Streck
Thought of the day: "The Pokemon cartoon is heretical."
They are pretty good,but to solve this you need to go to the StarDestroyer.net or SpaceBattles.com..
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Post by: AndrewC
IvanTih wrote:
They're not canon. That was pretty expressly debunked by Paula Block in December 2005 - none of the books are canon, only what is on-screen is. The Jeri Taylor books were at best according to her - quasi canon- and only for as long as she was working on Voyager. Such was backed up by every Trek writer / author on the forum, and has been backed up in the past by Ronald D Moore.
Can I also point out that in the same statment she also said that the first series was also non-canon. She was talking about how GR saw things. Your quote was also refers to fiction, ie the story books,
"The tech manuals are written by ST production staff, same as the Encyclopedia (Mike Okuda). Since their contents report on what is canon, they are technically canon." - Harry Lang, Senior Director of Viacom Consumer Products Interactive division (January 2005)
IF what we see on screen is the only canon allowed, which version do we use, considering we now have 2 alternates. The prime, or the Bad Robot Version?
Cheers
Andrew
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Post by: Melissia
Grey Templar wrote:Ork Roks are also fitted with lots of force fields and sturctural reinforcement(as such as ork tech can provide)
Ork force fields are the best in the galaxy if I remember my BFG fluff correctly.
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Post by: Asherian Command
Even i know that is bs. I the best shields in the galaxy are probably the Tau, or the Eldar. The Most Powerful are the Necrons.
20700
Post by: IvanTih
Melissia wrote:Grey Templar wrote:Ork Roks are also fitted with lots of force fields and sturctural reinforcement(as such as ork tech can provide)
Ork force fields are the best in the galaxy if I remember my BFG fluff correctly.
Yes,thank the Old Ones.
A massive Ork Waagh!(where Orks unite) would stomp a fair number of universes. Automatically Appended Next Post: As for the 610 gigaton torpedo.
The rule is that things are canon (note the spelling - "canon" and "cannon" are two different things) unless explicitly contradicted, or in the case of certain Black Library materials marked with the Heretic Tomes symbol. If, for instance, we were to have two mentions of the same Titan, but one of those marks it as a different class to the other mention (and it would have to be explicitly the same one), that would be a contradiction (ignoring for a moment the Case of the Incredible Shrinking Imperator from the Heresy novels).
The figures for the Hellfire torpedoes being uncontradicted, they stand.
1795
Post by: keezus
Melissia wrote:Grey Templar wrote:Ork Roks are also fitted with lots of force fields and sturctural reinforcement(as such as ork tech can provide)
Ork force fields are the best in the galaxy if I remember my BFG fluff correctly.
Roks are rated at Shields 1.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
IvanTih wrote:The rule is that things are canon (note the spelling - "canon" and "cannon" are two different things) unless explicitly contradicted, or in the case of certain Black Library materials marked with the Heretic Tomes symbol. If, for instance, we were to have two mentions of the same Titan, but one of those marks it as a different class to the other mention (and it would have to be explicitly the same one), that would be a contradiction (ignoring for a moment the Case of the Incredible Shrinking Imperator from the Heresy novels).
The figures for the Hellfire torpedoes being uncontradicted, they stand.
Ok. So by your logic, since the hellfire torpedo figures are uncontested (i.e. set in stone)...
1. Ork Roks are more durable than the figures for asteroid durability suggest, as real world asteroids would be one-shot by a single hellfire torpedo. As Ork Roks are shown being able to fight evenly with the Imperium, in order for them to be able to survive torpedo hits, they would need to be about a million times more durable than the rock it is made of, otherwise, the torpedoes are too strong as stated. Unfortunately as lance and massed ordinance fire moves the weapon yields into the TT range - BFG: Armada suggests that the Roks need to be able to survive being one shot by these as well - as the Roks are written as capable of winning a fight vs an Imperial battle group. These two pieces of information suggest that an Ork Rok is actually over a billion times more durable than the Asteroid it is made out of... which brings us to the next problem...
2. Considering that in real-world terms, a 3x difference in magnitude (10^3) is equal to the difference of automatic weapons fire (AK47) vs a 120mm tank round - (Modern armor is pretty much impervious to AK-47 rounds, not so much from modern 120mm rounds) - If capital ships can survive getting hit by low Petaton / High-Mid Teraton level weapons, this would suggest that they would be impervious to torpedoes at the stated yield - even after assuming that the yield of energy weapons is halved by void shielding (since the disparity between the main weapons and torpedoes is over 10^3x and is over 10^5x for the big guns. However, as you've stated that torpedo figures stand - AND we KNOW that torpedoes can damage capital ship armor (and this is backed up by lots of evidence) - there can only be two outcomes here:
(a) Adamantium armor is less durable than stated - However, this would result in everything getting one-shot by the bigger guns (assuming that those numbers also stand), as in real world terms, anything that can be damaged by an AK-47 will be MANGLED by a tank shell... So if the torpedo number is right, that means that the big guns are too strong.
(b) If the main gun numbers are right, the torpedoes are too weak!
We can't assume the armor to have variable durability as measuring damage has been the only way to back calculate yields.
Unless you can reconcile this fundamental problem for me, I don't see how any of the provided calculations and values can be admissible considering that the calculations themselves contradict each other. 40k technology may ignore the laws of physics for power generation, but these inconsistencies in damage levels and durability can not be ignored. You've been hammering the proponents of the other universes to stay consistent - IMO it is unacceptable for you to not do the same in return.
20700
Post by: IvanTih
It's not my fault(firepower thing),ask most people on StarDestroyer and SpaceBattles and they'll give same statements(less or more) as I.
Only way to be sure.
17923
Post by: Asherian Command
Why not just ask the GW Customer Service the question How much damage does an Imperial Cruiser do?
20243
Post by: Grey Templar
Asherian Command wrote:Why not just ask the GW Customer Service the question How much damage does an Imperial Cruiser do?
Ask not the GW Rep a question. For he shall give you 3 answers, all of which are contradictory in nature.
17923
Post by: Asherian Command
Grey Templar wrote:
Ask not the GW Rep a question. For he shall give you 3 answers, all of which are contradictory in nature.
sigged
1795
Post by: keezus
IvanTih wrote:It's not my fault(firepower thing),ask most people on StarDestroyer and SpaceBattles and they'll give same statements(less or more) as I.
Only way to be sure.
You're kidding right? You're the one posting stats that don't make any sense. Why don't you ask them, instead of putting the burden of proof on others when they point out the flaws in your argument. Try doing your own analysis instead of blindly regurgitating someone else's work.
20700
Post by: IvanTih
keezus wrote:IvanTih wrote:It's not my fault(firepower thing),ask most people on StarDestroyer and SpaceBattles and they'll give same statements(less or more) as I.
Only way to be sure.
You're kidding right? You're the one posting stats that don't make any sense. Why don't you ask them, instead of putting the burden of proof on others when they point out the flaws in your argument. Try doing your own analysis instead of blindly regurgitating someone else's work.
I asked them.
http://bbs.stardestroyer.net/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=144191 Connor
http://forums.spacebattles.com/showthread.php?p=5194741#post5194741 Another version of calcs
25559
Post by: SweetLou
well if the necrons fully awoke, they could.
if all orks banded together in a big waggh they could
20700
Post by: IvanTih
About 40k STL speed.
In flight of the Eisenstein they were accelerating to reach Holy Terra to inform the Emperor of Horus' treachery. Also when the Eisenstein is found by the Imperial Fists they came out of the Warp 4 light minutes from the Eisenstein, which Garro noted was little time to prepare for their arrival. Later a Black ship matches speed with them after they clear Neptune, while at .75c. All of which implies fairly high acceleration.
Then again we have 0.75 from Sabbath Matyr.
Remember that Rogue Trader contradicts itself(we have freighter travelling at 3000 km/s while we also have single digit G,blame Andy Chambers who also gives them single digit in Rogue Trader novels).
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Post by: Pika_power
On anything v.s. Roks: Can't we just put it down to wacky Ork psychic powers making the Rok significantly more durable than asteroids?
1795
Post by: keezus
@Ivan: From what I can glean from those links, there appears to be no consensus on power level based on the nova cannon effects as described by the fiction - only a range is produced. Considering that this range encompasses several magnitudes, I would think that the upper limits are very suspect - especially considering the outright stated yield of 610GT for the torpedoes.
I have no intention of joining SD forum (wretched hive of scum and villainy and all that... ) - would you be so good as to ask about the issue with the huge spread in weapon powers on ship mounted platforms? The current spread per this thread is 10^3-10^5. The supporting fiction indicates that these weapons are all employed against the same targets. Applying common sense: Three scenarios develop: Either the huge spread is wrong, and the actual spread in power between ordinance/lances/novacannon/torpedoes is a much smaller magnitude (10x to 100x), OR the weakest weapons -are- ineffective, OR the bigger weapons would be one-shot killing the intended targets.
My choice would be no. 1, as the fiction doesn't seem to support the last two of the three scenarios. I'd be interested to see what your experts think about this.
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Post by: Retribution
Has anyone mentioned Homeworld yet? I wonder how those ships would fare against the Imperial Navy, particular the Progenitor vessels
29408
Post by: Melissia
The Sajuuk is probably the only one to stand a chance, due to its supreme mobility and firepower.
34694
Post by: Blood Raven 5th Company
i think not i was playing with my friend (first time she has played) i be nice and let her use my beloved marines... first turn she has killed half of my tau force
by the end of the game the only dead marines are 2 bikers that her librarian accidentaly killed when the attack scattered
so in conclusion IOM 4 eva
11980
Post by: Commissar Agro
Blood Raven 5th Company wrote:i think not i was playing with my friend (first time she has played) i be nice and let her use my beloved marines... first turn she has killed half of my tau force
by the end of the game the only dead marines are 2 bikers that her librarian accidentaly killed when the attack scattered
so in conclusion IOM 4 eva
For starters, some grammer and puncutation would be nice.
Thats just plain bad luck, we play a game where dice determine the results, its just down to luck really and you just had some bad luck thats all.
20700
Post by: IvanTih
keezus wrote:@Ivan: From what I can glean from those links, there appears to be no consensus on power level based on the nova cannon effects as described by the fiction - only a range is produced. Considering that this range encompasses several magnitudes, I would think that the upper limits are very suspect - especially considering the outright stated yield of 610GT for the torpedoes.
I have no intention of joining SD forum (wretched hive of scum and villainy and all that... ) - would you be so good as to ask about the issue with the huge spread in weapon powers on ship mounted platforms? The current spread per this thread is 10^3-10^5. The supporting fiction indicates that these weapons are all employed against the same targets. Applying common sense: Three scenarios develop: Either the huge spread is wrong, and the actual spread in power between ordinance/lances/novacannon/torpedoes is a much smaller magnitude (10x to 100x), OR the weakest weapons -are- ineffective, OR the bigger weapons would be one-shot killing the intended targets.
My choice would be no. 1, as the fiction doesn't seem to support the last two of the three scenarios. I'd be interested to see what your experts think about this.
There's no 22 petatons,new calcs.Such a weapon would require a reactor capable of at least 1.54e21 watts to power it(new calc Nova cannon),2% isn't close to lightspeed if you're an idiot.
http://bbs.stardestroyer.net/viewtopic.php?t=33022
Using HDS' fifty meter apature quote, I decided to do some low end calcs on the KE of a nova cannon warhead. If we assume that it's a fifty meter cube (I know that's a rather unlikely shape, but bear with me) made of solid iron. (Again rather unlikely, but I would imagine that the shell is much longer than its width.) Now, taking the quote about the speed things are fired from a bombardment cannon (Nearly 1/4 C) found in Excecution Hour and the quote in the BFG rulebook that states a nova cannon firing at 'close to' C, I will take 1/4 C as a low end velocity.
Volume of Shell : 125000 M^3
Density of Iorn : 7874 kg/m3
Mass of Shell : 984250000 Kg.
1/4 C : 75000000 M/s
KE of Shell : 2.768203125 e+24 J(I do love such useful ready reckoners.)
2.768203125e+24 joule = 661,616,425.669216 megaton [explosive]
This says a lot about the energy capabilities of Imperium Ships, specifically the Graviometric Impellers, and about their materials strength, given that they can withstand this recoil (Admittedly only along their forward axis) Unfortunately the weapon is a standoff blast, so this isn't the energy delivered to the target.
Now, to try and find an image or description of the shells in more deatil.
NB, I'm not going to bother trying to factor reletavistic mass increase here, lets leave it Newtonian for a while shall we?
Then we have bombardment cannon calcs.
http://forums.spacebattles.com/showthread.php?t=94376
Also Star Destroyer isn't that evil.I have met many polite members there.Mike Wong isn't active there since May.
34694
Post by: Blood Raven 5th Company
Commissar Agro wrote:Blood Raven 5th Company wrote:i think not i was playing with my friend (first time she has played) i be nice and let her use my beloved marines... first turn she has killed half of my tau force
by the end of the game the only dead marines are 2 bikers that her librarian accidentaly killed when the attack scattered
so in conclusion IOM 4 eva
For starters, some grammer and puncutation would be nice.
Thats just plain bad luck, we play a game where dice determine the results, its just down to luck really and you just had some bad luck thats all.
1795
Post by: keezus
@Ivan: Re: Nova cannon shot. I'm not sure what you think to achieve by dredging up that old post from 2003. The 661 Petaton number produced by NecronLord only highlights the silly disparity between weapon yields - where a ship employs weapon systems that are a MILLION times weaker than the main weapon against the same target. (You might want to put further excerpts from other posts in quotes to differentiate them from your own comments.)
Going by the more recent threads that you posted, I consider that number inadmissible considering that Connor noted that the 22 Petaton number may be too high.
As for the bombardment cannon. The calculation ignores the fact that when firing into the atmosphere, the shell is going to heat up immensely especially at 0.25c. I am too lazy to investigate this at the moment, but it could cause some problems. I hope you realize the calculated yield (even at triple digit TT) is incapable of causing the damage that it is "described" to in the books. At least not without a lot of shots. (likely 10^4 at least)
I really don't know where you are going with all this... None of these numbers mean anything if the disparity between weapon strengths on the same platform are resolved.
-edit- Interestingly, if my hypothesis is correct, and the weapon yields of IoM are limited to the low TT range for novacannon and high GT range for everything else... this changes the dynamic immensely as borderline races such as the Zentraedi become full fledged threats as the values for IoM armor stabilize.
20700
Post by: IvanTih
It's 662 teraton,not petaton.
8052
Post by: Terminus
Frazzled wrote:Firing in all directions is irrelevant. Your artillery and less than light speed weaponry is literally standing still compared to an ST ship. It would just look like a porcupine to them.
Let's not go down the path of this idiotic discussion again. That crap went on for like 40 pages last time. ST sucks and is the weakest of all the civilizations in discussion (both in mettle and armament), so let's just stop here.
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Post by: sniperjolly
keezus wrote:
2. Considering that in real-world terms, a 3x difference in magnitude (10^3) is equal to the difference of automatic weapons fire (AK47) vs a 120mm tank round - (Modern armor is pretty much impervious to AK-47 rounds, not so much from modern 120mm rounds) - If capital ships can survive getting hit by low Petaton / High-Mid Teraton level weapons, this would suggest that they would be impervious to torpedoes at the stated yield - even after assuming that the yield of energy weapons is halved by void shielding (since the disparity between the main weapons and torpedoes is over 10^3x and is over 10^5x for the big guns. However, as you've stated that torpedo figures stand - AND we KNOW that torpedoes can damage capital ship armor (and this is backed up by lots of evidence) - there can only be two outcomes here:
Well you do realize that nova-cannons never actually HIT ANYTHING, right? It is a blast weapon, with a radius of a decent sized planet that explodes mid-flight in the midst of an enemy fleet. Being bow mounted, with no other method of steering, it cant be even half accurate, and a direct impact with a nova cannon probably only happens once every five thousand years, and results in instagibbed space-hulks and thoughly baffled tech-adepts. Its like saying troops can survive getting hit by cluster bombs but not AKs.
20243
Post by: Grey Templar
sniperjolly wrote:keezus wrote:
2. Considering that in real-world terms, a 3x difference in magnitude (10^3) is equal to the difference of automatic weapons fire (AK47) vs a 120mm tank round - (Modern armor is pretty much impervious to AK-47 rounds, not so much from modern 120mm rounds) - If capital ships can survive getting hit by low Petaton / High-Mid Teraton level weapons, this would suggest that they would be impervious to torpedoes at the stated yield - even after assuming that the yield of energy weapons is halved by void shielding (since the disparity between the main weapons and torpedoes is over 10^3x and is over 10^5x for the big guns. However, as you've stated that torpedo figures stand - AND we KNOW that torpedoes can damage capital ship armor (and this is backed up by lots of evidence) - there can only be two outcomes here:
Well you do realize that nova-cannons never actually HIT ANYTHING, right? It is a blast weapon, with a radius of a decent sized planet that explodes mid-flight in the midst of an enemy fleet. Being bow mounted, with no other method of steering, it cant be even half accurate, and a direct impact with a nova cannon probably only happens once every five thousand years, and results in instagibbed space-hulks and thoughly baffled tech-adepts. Its like saying troops can survive getting hit by cluster bombs but not AKs.
Indeed, if you get hit with a novacannon you are dead.
IIRC: BFG has some special rule if a ship gets directly hit by a Novacannon it dies instantly, but the cannon is highly inaccurate.
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Post by: Henners91
I think the Mysterons could obliterate the IoM.
1795
Post by: keezus
sniperjolly wrote:Well you do realize that nova-cannons never actually HIT ANYTHING, right? It is a blast weapon, with a radius of a decent sized planet that explodes mid-flight in the midst of an enemy fleet. Being bow mounted, with no other method of steering, it cant be even half accurate, and a direct impact with a nova cannon probably only happens once every five thousand years, and results in instagibbed space-hulks and thoughly baffled tech-adepts. Its like saying troops can survive getting hit by cluster bombs but not AKs.
Well you do realize that all the calculations for nova-cannons are BASED OFF KINETIC IMPACT, right? 
Aside from the above: Re: Planet sized blast radius: Rounded down for simplicity we'll assume an Earth-like radius of 6000km. Extrapolating from the non-linear blast information based on known blast radii (nuclear in this case): http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nuclear_weapon_yield A 130 TT blast would have a fireball roughly 6000km... (With the shockwave being larger of course). Assuming it is halved by shielding - this would give us a 65TT blast which is magnitude 100x greater than a torpedo. Still a bit on the high side, but not as silly as the 22PT kinetic impact number, or the 660TT number (which is still IMHO too high magnitude 10^3 greater than shield ignoring torpedoes).
Your cluster munition analogy doesn't exactly apply in that both cluster bombs AND AKs are meant to be used on infantry. The 40k problem is that they are using weapons on the same target with power magnitudes so far apart that it is akin to tank weapons and AKs on tanks... the latter of which would be completely ineffective.
34612
Post by: Ledabot
I just think that the weapions on the ships of the futrue are always going to be absurd. They have to be to kill stuff. Theres no point argueing exacts like the strength of the warhead if you cant agree on how the thing even works
7103
Post by: sniperjolly
keezus wrote:
Well you do realize that all the calculations for nova-cannons are BASED OFF KINETIC IMPACT, right?
Yeah, I was just saying that 22 PTs never really happens, but is totally feasable, I mean it is a frigging skyscraper moving at over 3/4 the speed of light.
keezus wrote:
Aside from the above: Re: Planet sized blast radius: Rounded down for simplicity we'll assume an Earth-like radius of 6000km. Extrapolating from the non-linear blast information based on known blast radii (nuclear in this case): http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nuclear_weapon_yield A 130 TT blast would have a fireball roughly 6000km... (With the shockwave being larger of course). Assuming it is halved by shielding - this would give us a 65TT blast which is magnitude 100x greater than a torpedo. Still a bit on the high side, but not as silly as the 22PT kinetic impact number, or the 660TT number (which is still IMHO too high magnitude 10^3 greater than shield ignoring torpedoes).
OK, so my rough guess for diameter was a bit off, it is twice that size, having a radius larger than earth's diameter at about 14K km by using the only canon source, the BFG rulebook. If a ship's base it the few thousand km around it (lets say 3.5K) and the blast template has a radius of twice a ship's base, it would be aprox 14K.
keezus wrote:http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nuclear_weapon_yield
Hmmm... I tought that equation was unworkable due to a devide by zero error. (atmospheric pressure in a vacum is... what exactly?!) Also, no shockwave in space. That said, it is possible that the collision (kinetic impact) is far more powerfull than the detonation, but simply cannot convey that power through a vaccum, thus resorting to an unobtanium, phembletonium, hand wavium, warp implosion warhead. That warhead would probably lessen the mass of the projectile, not really needing an armoured casing. Connor's calcs were based off of being mostly iron.
keezus wrote:
Your cluster munition analogy doesn't exactly apply in that both cluster bombs AND AKs are meant to be used on infantry. The 40k problem is that they are using weapons on the same target with power magnitudes so far apart that it is akin to tank weapons and AKs on tanks... the latter of which would be completely ineffective.
I thought of it rather as firing AT weapons at infantry, while one was never ment to be used against another, was highly impractical and results in an istagib. I used cluster bombs v infantry because I was rushed, nukes v tanks would possibly be a more apt analogy, although a direct hit from a nova cannon was never designed to ever hit anything, EVER.
20243
Post by: Grey Templar
the nova cannon does make a shock wave.
the gases created by detonation accelerate outwards attempting to fill the void. this transferrs kinetic energy into any solid object it comes in contact with and the knetic energy, while it may be lessoned by the void, will transferr all the energy it can into the only object able to recieve it.
the shock wave doesn't lose kinetic energy as distance increases either(no air resistance) and is only lessoned by, as the distance increases, the fact less and less gas is slamming into ships farther from the blast. Ships will also create zones behind them that won't get hit by the blast(assuming the ship doesn't get thrown into another ship)
11980
Post by: Commissar Agro
Has anybody mentioned the Yuuzhan Vong from star wars, they are a speices that took over pretty much most of aother galaxy before falling to infighting and pretty much destroying the entire galaxy before fleaing to the star wars galaxy, they hate machines and use bioweapons. They are immune to most force abilites so it would lead one to belive that they would have a similiar affect on psychic powers apart from lighting attacks since they can be hurt by force lighting attacks.
There ships don't have normal shields, instead they use artifically created black holes to absorb incoming weapons fire, but these can be overloaded by fireing low power shots constantly at the generators, but on larger ships this flaw is stoped by having many generators, allowing others to "recharge" while others prevent incoming fire.
I think they could take on the IoM in a fight since they wipied out over 365 trillion people in their short 4 year war with the New republic/Galactic Federation of Free Alliances and the empire, but I'm not sure who would win.
18375
Post by: AndrewC
Grey Templar wrote:
IIRC: BFG has some special rule if a ship gets directly hit by a Novacannon it dies instantly, but the cannon is highly inaccurate.
It's not in any set of rules that I have. The effects will just about instantly cripple a ship, but it won't automatically destroy it.
Cheers
Andrew
Automatically Appended Next Post: IvanTih wrote:About 40k STL speed.
In flight of the Eisenstein they were accelerating to reach Holy Terra to inform the Emperor of Horus' treachery. Also when the Eisenstein is found by the Imperial Fists they came out of the Warp 4 light minutes from the Eisenstein, which Garro noted was little time to prepare for their arrival. Later a Black ship matches speed with them after they clear Neptune, while at .75c. All of which implies fairly high acceleration.
Then again we have 0.75 from Sabbath Matyr.
Remember that Rogue Trader contradicts itself(we have freighter travelling at 3000 km/s while we also have single digit G,blame Andy Chambers who also gives them single digit in Rogue Trader novels).
However, speed =/= acceleration.
Since there is no friction in space, there is nothing to slow you down. Therfore, theoretically a ship with only 1G acceleration (10meters per second) can reach 3000 kms. It just takes 3 and a half days of constant acceleration.
Cheers
Andrew
1795
Post by: keezus
sniperjolly wrote:I used cluster bombs v infantry because I was rushed, nukes v tanks would possibly be a more apt analogy, although a direct hit from a nova cannon was never designed to ever hit anything, EVER.
Order of magnitudes buddy... orders of magnitudes... The problem with BFG is that it is stuck in a purely WWII naval warfare mindset. In WW2, in ship to ship combat, the participants usually fired everything they had at the other ships - main batteries, secondary batteries, torpedos - I wouldn't be surprised if they even used the AA guns, if they were in range. The secondary guns (and smaller weapons) had zero chance of penetrating the actual armored belts but could destroy exposed superstructure, men and materials on deck. A notable example is the WWII battleship Bismark. The British shelled her relentlessly from sea and air and managed to penetrate her armored belt exactly 0 times even with direct hits from torpedoes and main batteries. Her rudder, superstructure and surface elements were obliterated but she was still afloat. In 40k, where all the vulnerable guts are enclosed by the armored hull, firing secondary and tertiary armaments at a target that can resist your primary batteries is nonsensical as no amount of cumulative hits from the secondary on down will cause any damage... So here's the issue... We'll use torpedoes as the measuring stick, as they're STATED to be 610GT - each wave of torpedoes (repped by a counter) does 1 pip of damage, so they're supposed to be moderately effective.
Torpedo - 610GT
Ordinance / Lance battery - supposed TT range (10-1000x greater power)
Novacannon blast - per above posts: TT range (100-1000x greater power)
Novancannon direct - PT range (10000-1000000x greater power) - inaccurate.
In my mind, orders of magnitude should not exceed 100x for the entire range of anti-ship guns - something along the lines of:
Torpedo - 610GT
Ordinance / Lance battery - single digit TT
Novacannon blast - double digit TT
Novacannon direct = instagib Automatically Appended Next Post: Damn. When did I become a Mysterious Techpriest?!??
20243
Post by: Grey Templar
although, Physical impact is magnified in space as the kinetic force has nowhere to go, but inside the ship. the same can be said of most heat(only Radiative heat can enter a Vacum)
Penetration isn't required to do damage. Vibrations can damage and destroy equipment and only a small crack in the armor is required for a deadly decompression of the interior.
That said, very few IoM ships are lost(aside from puny escorts) by being totally obliterated by fire. mostly its the loss of onboard pressure and impacts breaking vital equipment causing the ship to become dead in the void. Impierial Captains frequently detonate their ships reactors to prevent the ships wreck from being looted too.
18375
Post by: AndrewC
keezus wrote:
In my mind, orders of magnitude should not exceed 100x for the entire range of anti-ship guns - something along the lines of:
Torpedo - 610GT
Ordinance / Lance battery - single digit TT
Novacannon blast - double digit TT
Novacannon direct = instagib
I think that that is even overstating the abilities. A single torpedo does 1 point of damage, 610 GT. A Lance does 1 pt damage, if 610 GT can do that why should the lance be of magnitudes greater?
Andrew
20243
Post by: Grey Templar
the lance does put more energy out, but that energy is used to bypass void shields rather then damage the ship.
it's also like the difference between a Club and a knife. the clug does equal total damage over a greater area while the knife does equal total damage over a smaller area.
18375
Post by: AndrewC
Grey Templar wrote:the lance does put more energy out, but that energy is used to bypass void shields rather then damage the ship.
But does it? From every source that I have available, a single lance hit doesn't overload the shields, but is dissapated by them. It takes a barrage of hits to overload the shields.
Andrew
20243
Post by: Grey Templar
lances focus energy on a single point. this bores a hole through the shield sending the, now less powerful, beam into the hull.
this is represented by the fact that in BFG lances ignore shields neither being stopped nor taking them down.
1795
Post by: keezus
Wait... you mean in BFG, shields only help against weapon batteries? By what mechanism are torpedoes immune to shields? Why would the solid projectiles from the weapon batteries be stopped? Why aren't lances stopped...
Void shields = WTF.
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Post by: BeRzErKeR
I always interpreted void shields as dissipating or absorbing kinetic energy above a certain "threshold" velocity. So fast-moving particle beams and hypervelocity shells of a weapons battery are slowed down to the point that they simply bounce off the hull, but torpedoes, which can accelerate after penetrating the shields and are designed to work at low velocity anyway, are basically unaffected. Lances simply overload the shield at the point of impact, throwing so much energy into it that it "flickers" and lets a blast through.
This also resolves the magnitude issue. Torpedoes can deliver their entire force directly to the guts of the ship, because they can pass through the shield unaffected, and probably penetrate some distance into armor before detonating. Ordnance and lances are forced to spend most of the energy contained in them battering down the shields before they make contact, however, and presumably those shields are constantly trying to re-establish themselves and have to be shot down repeatedly.
Furthermore, while it's true that each "wave" of torpedoes does one hit of damage, isn't the 690 gigaton figure supposed to be one SINGULAR torpedo?
18375
Post by: AndrewC
Grey Templar wrote:lances focus energy on a single point. this bores a hole through the shield sending the, now less powerful, beam into the hull.
this is represented by the fact that in BFG lances ignore shields neither being stopped nor taking them down.
Can you give me a page number for that, because I can't find it?
Lances ignore armour and hit of a flat 4+, that I can find.
Cheers
Andrew Automatically Appended Next Post: BeRzErKeR wrote:Furthermore, while it's true that each "wave" of torpedoes does one hit of damage, isn't the 690 gigaton figure supposed to be one SINGULAR torpedo?
Yes and no, torps are rated in strength. So a strength 6 "wave" can do up to 6 points of damage. The gigaton figure is from a quote in the original spacehulk, in which a torp has 122? warheads each at 5GT, IE a MIRV. Someone please correct me if I got that wrong.
Cheers
Andrew
1795
Post by: keezus
@AndrewC: That's interesting. If the Space Hulk torpedo is indeed a MIRV, then all the weapon yields need to be downgraded again as multiple warheads vs. single super werhead would be akin to buckshot vs. a solid slug.
If the armor is damaged by 5GT warheads, anything at 1TT or greater is going to one-shot the ship.
@GreyTemplar: I've been going by the assumption that void shields block 50% of non-torpedo weapons. Is this too little or too much in your mind? GW does a terrible job of quantifying this technology.
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Post by: Crantor
Simply put. The Justice League. And I mean all of them, including affiliate members. Add the Green Lantern Corps as back up and the IoM is done like dinner.
18375
Post by: AndrewC
keezus wrote:@AndrewC: That's interesting. If the Space Hulk torpedo is indeed a MIRV, then all the weapon yields need to be downgraded again as multiple warheads vs. single super werhead would be akin to buckshot vs. a solid slug.
If the armor is damaged by 5GT warheads, anything at 1TT or greater is going to one-shot the ship.
Lets be honest here, I'm trying to reconcile a game system against someones perception via fiction.
From what I can gather the torpedos is BFG can be directly attributable to the number of launchers. A ship with 6 tubes launches a str 6 wave. 1 per torp. Once the torp approaches to within detection radius, (a small/large flying base) at 1000k per 1cm, so thats app 1k for a cruiser and 2k for a battleship, the torp attacks. The description of the weapons seems to suggest that a direct hit, is a rarity (lances excluded) A firing ship simply brackets the targetted area with a massive explosion. The use of MIRVs seems to back that theory up. 122 individual warheads exploding should cover a lot of space!
Void shields are noted as destroying individual ships as they pass though as welll as allowing torps and bombers through unscathed.
You couldn't make it up could you
Cheers
Andrew
34644
Post by: Mr Nobody
Mass Effect's main bad guy, the reapers.
20243
Post by: Grey Templar
keezus wrote:@AndrewC: That's interesting. If the Space Hulk torpedo is indeed a MIRV, then all the weapon yields need to be downgraded again as multiple warheads vs. single super werhead would be akin to buckshot vs. a solid slug.
If the armor is damaged by 5GT warheads, anything at 1TT or greater is going to one-shot the ship.
@GreyTemplar: I've been going by the assumption that void shields block 50% of non-torpedo weapons. Is this too little or too much in your mind? GW does a terrible job of quantifying this technology.
Voids block 100% of weapons damage(barring Lances) untill the pressure on the generators becomes too great(danger of backwash of energy into reactors) and the safety systems shut the voids down untill the generators can recharge.
the way Voids work in both the BFG and 40k rules supports this. Voids in BFG allow the ship to ignore X number of damaging shots each turn. after that number is reached the ship begins to use it's armor save( IIRC)
in 40k Voids work like this. you shoot at the vehicle and roll to damage the Voids AV of 12. if you damage it the void drops. after all voids are gone you begin to attack the vehicle as normal. Voids in 40k are regenerated on a 5+ each turn.
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Post by: TheCyben
Another IoM from an alternate reality - where the Soviet Union, the Ancient Egyptians, or perhaps Ze Nazis have ruled Earth for the last 40,000 years...
Automatically Appended Next Post:
PS on the subject of mega-guns - consider this one -
Construct a wormhole portal into a pinched-off little sealed universe. Now drill a huge nickel-iron slug from the core of a planet - we're talking about roughly 1/2 the mass of the Earth. Put the slug through the portal, move the portal near your target (a couple light-minutes oughta do it)...
Now just give the big lump of nickel and iron a little tap... because the whole wormhole thing screws with the relationships between mass, energy and speed, most of that huge chunk comes out at fraction-below-c speeds, shotgunning a planet like a soft boiled egg.
How does it work? I don't know, I'm just a puny human. But getting Geocored into next century... if it looks cool and blows up planets, then like the death star I'm all for it.
1795
Post by: keezus
@AndrewC: I'm with you on that logic... The IoM is all about quantity over quality. Targetting is for sissies - just saturate the area with ordinance. 
I'm trying to narrow down probable upper and lower limits of weapon strengths so that ship durability can be extrapolated. The stated range of weapon strengths is in the 10^6+ range - per all the seperate calcs that Ivan keeps plugging from SD.net aren't suitable for this task as any ship that can survive hits from the big guns should be by extension mostly invincible against most things 10^2x less powerful and virtually impervious against anything 10^3 less powerful.
Without an expected range for ship durability, there is no point in any debate as the ships are always "as durable as needed" just by pointing to the appropriate singular damage calculation - even though the ranges of values don't make sense even within the context of 40k.
@GreyTemplar: Ok. So the shields are dropped by saturation and then we get direct hits. By that logic, any weapon yields from ordinance should be within a magnitude of 10-100 (although I'd tend to the lower portion of that range) from the power of torpedoes - as anything higher would suggest a one-shot kill as soon as the shields go down...
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Crantor wrote:Simply put. The Justice League. And I mean all of them, including affiliate members. Add the Green Lantern Corps as back up and the IoM is done like dinner.
Green Lantern Corps(e) would get slaughtered by the Imperial Fists (or anything else painted yellow).
25990
Post by: Chongara
I'd say high tech level/end game races from the "Space Empires" game series would stand a decent chance.
While they control a far fewer planets than the IoM, they're well-networked coordinated and cohesive entities. The IoM is a giant awkward, lumbering beast of a thing.
Tech-wise they've got a leg up in a few areas. hBlowing whole planets into tiny chunks is mid-tier trick at best. Hell, even the torpedo that blows up a star (Along with everything else in the System) isn't the height of destruction.They've got the edge in mobility too, being able to open or collapse a stable wormhole to near any part of the galaxy that provides instantaneous, reliable, safe, limitless transfer between two points. Cloaking is easy, plentiful and even comes in multiple varieties. Sensors and communication are also vastly more accurate, reliable and quick.
Additionally they understand their tech, can develop new tech, and readily adapt that of others.
Things like ship-to-ship combat are harder to judge. The game is inconsistent at best about the size of your vessels, and it's not exactly clear how weapons would interact universe to universe. How exactly do phased shield generators interact with 40k weapons? Do void shields stop Null-Space Projectors?
33816
Post by: Noir
After rewatch some of the newer Doctor Who's. It came to me the Timeloads, they use the weapon the Doctor stopped them from using in the Time Wars. No one wins or loses, as time never started.
20243
Post by: Grey Templar
assuming Wormhole space = Warp space. the IoM does nothing but Wormhole travel.
Void Shields work by "deflecting" incoming energy and objects capable of damaging the vessal into the warp. Null space projecters would likely be stopped(although they would be very good at damaging Voids)
Space Empires would dance around the IoM for a time, but the IoM would simply take out their planets one by one cutting off supply and whittling their fleet down.
25990
Post by: Chongara
Grey Templar wrote:assuming Wormhole space = Warp space. the IoM does nothing but Wormhole travel.
That's a big assumption. Wormhole travel in SE doesn't involve the "Warp" in the 40k sense, with all it's problems of unpredictability, unreliability, inaccuracy and well Deamons.
It'd certainly be one avenue to argue that for the purposes of the discussion, we'll have the SE folks play on 40k terms. I'm not exactly sure that's fair to either side though.
Void Shields work by "deflecting" incoming energy and objects capable of damaging the vessal into the warp. Null space projectors would likely be stopped(although they would be very good at damaging Voids)
Well, in SE Null-Space projectors simply bypass all shields and armor. The "Projectiles" for a lack of better word effectively don't exist until they get to their target. Again it's kind of a wonky area without a real adapter or interface for the two universes.
It's worth noting that if SE Warp Points (Worm Holes) do operate on the 40k "Warp", that puts a rather dangerous weapon in their arsenal. Wormhole Beams that force targets out of normal space, usually these are used to disrupt movement (since FTL travel is harmless and reliable on SE rules) but in the 40k universe, it's a good way to send the enemy on a trip they won't come back from.
Space Empires would dance around the IoM for a time, but the IoM would simply take out their planets one by one cutting off supply and whittling their fleet down.
Well, if we operate off the assumption that 40k "Warp" = SE "Warp Points" (Wormholes) then IoM can't even get to their planets. Technology that locks out the creation of Wormhole openings in a given system is rather commonplace. IoM would be stuck trying to get there at sub-light speeds.
If we assume they're different, the IoM can get in. However, then you have to take into account that SE races have mobile shipyards capable of Wormhole travel in their own right. Whittling a fleet down is very hard when the points of production can rapidly change position to any point in the galaxy at a moments notice.
EDIT: I'm dumb
17923
Post by: Asherian Command
Actually no. If anyone came to the 40k universe they will suffer the effects of the 40k universe. Like the tyranids nomming on them, and the effects of the warp. As daemons would corrupt the crews of the US. Enterprise and turn Captain Kirk into a Worshipper of Slaanesh. Just imagine that! But it kinda makes sense.
Anyway the 40k universe in my mind still has the Star Trek Universe beat. As the United Federation only has so many ships.
Compared to the imperium which has millions of millions of ships, that are as large as a borg cubes. The only thing I think that can beat the Imperium is Nanobots!
25990
Post by: Chongara
Asherian Command wrote:Actually no. If anyone came to the 40k universe they will suffer the effects of the 40k universe. Like the tyranids nomming on them, and the effects of the warp. As daemons would corrupt the crews of the US. Enterprise and turn Captain Kirk into a Worshipper of Slaanesh. Just imagine that! But it kinda makes sense.
Anyway the 40k universe in my mind still has the Star Trek Universe beat. As the United Federation only has so many ships.
Compared to the imperium which has millions of millions of ships, that are as large as a borg cubes. The only thing I think that can beat the Imperium is Nanobots!
Why are we assuming that this conflict is happening in the 40k universe though? We could just as easily put the IoM on the rules of some other fictional universe as we can the members of some other fictional universe on the rules of 40k.
Both are legitimate approaches but I'm not really found of either. What prefer in these kinds of "VS" Scenarios is that you play on neutral ground where both universes play on their own rules, and attempt to make the two interface with as little interference with each other when unique elements clash with each other.
11980
Post by: Commissar Agro
TheCyben wrote:Another IoM from an alternate reality - where the Soviet Union, the Ancient Egyptians, or perhaps Ze Nazis have ruled Earth for the last 40,000 years...
your a buit late to that party, about 10 pages ago I mentioned an IoM from an alternate reality, I just wasn't specific about it.
But that is one hell of a mach up I would like to see! IoM Vs IoM
17923
Post by: Asherian Command
Nano bots vs IOM! Who would win!
Or
The Iron Men VS IOM
or
Dragon Ball Z vs IOM!
or
IOM VS IOM
or
Old ones vs IOM!
or
Mechanicum vs IOM!
or
DLS lore of the New IOM vs IOM
or
The Angels vs the IOM
or
God vs the IOM
or
Heaven vs the IOM
or
Hell vs the IOM
or
Alternate Universe IOM vs IOM
well thats all the ideas i can think of.
20243
Post by: Grey Templar
Asherian Command wrote:
Nano bots vs IOM! Who would win!
Mechanicum uses Nanobots currently
Dragon Ball Z vs IOM!
lol IoM
IOM VS IOM
Why 
Old ones vs IOM!
Old ones are dead 
Mechanicum vs IOM!
Not gonna happen, they need each other
The Angels vs the IOM
nah, they are a lousy baseball team
God vs the IOM
God
Heaven vs the IOM
Redundency 
Hell vs the IOM
been trying for 10,000 years
Alternate Universe IOM vs IOM
the IoM wins
11980
Post by: Commissar Agro
As much as it pains me to say so, DLS's new IoM would lose to the current IoM.
why you ask, warp travel is now highly unreilable since there is no astronomcan, it took creed 50 years to reach terra from Cadia by making short jumps.
[spoilers] Most of their forces are disorganised, they lost the ultramarines to form an independent empire (proberly a good thing) .
the blood angels are mostly dead or insane. Armegedon is gone! the Imperial fists are off running away after killing the squats high council.
But they gained New tech from the AdMech, Alpha legion, 1k sons and the primarchs Russ, Vulkan and the white scar guy.
DLS's IoM has no central command structure anymore since the Sol system was made independent, nothing has happened since the second seige of terra[/spoiler]
20243
Post by: Grey Templar
What is DLS?
some fan fic?
11980
Post by: Commissar Agro
18375
Post by: AndrewC
Grey Templar wrote:
the way Voids work in both the BFG and 40k rules supports this. Voids in BFG allow the ship to ignore X number of damaging shots each turn. after that number is reached the ship begins to use it's armor save(IIRC)
Unfortunately your memory has let you down. The shields allow you to ignore X number of hits. But you have to use the armour value to determine if you have hit, lances do not use the armour value but simply hit on a 4+. Torpedos ignore shields.
So firing at the front of a cruiser with Shields 2 and Armour 6 would require 6s on the die to hit, with the first 2 hits ignored. Lances hit on 4+ but are still stopped by shields and torps hit on 6+ but ignore shields.
Cheers
Andrew
34982
Post by: Asukane
Any fictional race or civilization that passes the Imperium on this scale would more or less beat the Imperium.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/kardashev_scale
Anything tier 3 and up would simply stomp the Imperium.
34972
Post by: turaku
ZERG RUSH!!!!!
with tyranids to help out.
221
Post by: Frazzled
Asherian Command wrote:Actually no. If anyone came to the 40k universe they will suffer the effects of the 40k universe. Like the tyranids nomming on them, and the effects of the warp. As daemons would corrupt the crews of the US. Enterprise and turn Captain Kirk into a Worshipper of Slaanesh. Just imagine that! But it kinda makes sense.
Anyway the 40k universe in my mind still has the Star Trek Universe beat. As the United Federation only has so many ships.
Compared to the imperium which has millions of millions of ships, that are as large as a borg cubes. The only thing I think that can beat the Imperium is Nanobots!
Thats the problem with this debate. Everyone compares the full weight of the IoM, when the IoM can't put their full weight against anything. They can't even beat the freaking Tau.
If you put the 41st Millennium IoM against the SW galaxy, ST galaxy, or a whole slew of sci fi universes, they would be as numbingly stupid as they are in 40K. Just like every other major player is stymied against the other powers
With their myriads of space capable races, the SW and ST galaxies would do just fine, just fine indeed in the galaxy of 40K.
29408
Post by: Melissia
I doubt it. Chaos is FAR more pervasive than "the dark side".
33829
Post by: Librius Machina
The Black Lantern Corps.
If they get to Terra it would be awesome. Black Lantern Emperor.
20243
Post by: Grey Templar
that scale is bad
going from 1 Planet, to 1 star is fine, but to jump from 1 star to the several Billion Stars that make up a Galaxy is a massive leap.
IDK of any Sci-fi universe that can harness that kind of power that can be taken seriously(weather it just shows them doing it because its cool or they just want to imply it)
anything that can harness the power of billions of stars pretty much curb stomps anything.
1795
Post by: keezus
Grey Templar wrote:that scale is bad
going from 1 Planet, to 1 star is fine, but to jump from 1 star to the several Billion Stars that make up a Galaxy is a massive leap.
Right... so going from 10^16 -> 10^26 (increase by factor of 10) is fine but going from 10^26 to 10^37 (increase by factor of 11) is a massive leap.
20243
Post by: Grey Templar
the physical difference is just so massive.
Civilizations don't expand by factors of 10(the article admits that Humans arn't even a Level 1 yet)
Civiliazations will expand by addition rather then multiplication. 1 star at a time.
10928
Post by: Elector
I dunno if this has already been mentioned (I don't have time right now to read 25 pages) but the Halo array wipes out all sentient life from the galaxy, pretty sure that would be made of win in a war against the IoM (just use the Ark as a safe house and ignite the halos, destroying the galaxy except for those on Shield Worlds and the Ark.)
Also, Covenant ships are fairly powerful, and their Spartans (while in no way as numerable as the SM) are certainly strong enough, combined with Covenant firepower. The Covenant are VERY precise in their Slipspace movements, and thus can maneuver around the Warp-based IoM ships easily and have highly advanced tech. They've also got good point-defense guns, and heavy shields. Not to mention their Exterminatus capabilities with a just a ship or two rather than a whole fleet and their heavy firepower.
If they teamed up with the UNSC (after the Covenant-Human Wars), they could do some good damage to stall for time before the Halos fire. (This is all pure conjecture, based on my knowledge of the Halo universe and the IoM, I may have missed something there.)
I would also say the Reapers from Mass Effect, they've been annihilating galaxies of life and civilizations for eons, and I seriously think they could do this...the innumerable ground forces of the IoM can't do anything if the Reapers are all spaceships, and An entire race of Reapers could kick total a$$
Wow, after re-reading this, I sound like a total Halo fanboy
20243
Post by: Grey Templar
the Halo rings arn't a very scientific weapon. How does it differentiate all sentient life from non-sentient?
it really is just another sci-fi "God" weapon.
34982
Post by: Asukane
keezus wrote:Grey Templar wrote:that scale is bad
going from 1 Planet, to 1 star is fine, but to jump from 1 star to the several Billion Stars that make up a Galaxy is a massive leap.
Right... so going from 10^16 -> 10^26 (increase by factor of 10) is fine but going from 10^26 to 10^37 (increase by factor of 11) is a massive leap.
The scale works by adding the power of ten (About that at least) to the last level. Though the power of a star is great, in order to gain that power of 10, you have to go massive. The scale works out fine.
That being said, the scale does not mean that they HAVE to use those means, but as to their total ability to generate energy.
The Imperium can generate massive amounts of power, but still nowhere near the level of a tier 3 civilization. The wiki page also says that to get to a Tier 3 level takes hundreds of thousands of years.
For fun here is a more detailed list of what diffrent groups would be. I will say that this one seems off in some places.
http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main?AbusingTheKardashevScaleForFunAndProfit
10928
Post by: Elector
Grey Templar wrote:the Halo rings arn't a very scientific weapon. How does it differentiate all sentient life from non-sentient?
it really is just another sci-fi "God" weapon.
Ok, good point, so I looked it up on Halopedia (Halo wiki) and apparently: "When activated, the Halo rings would wipe out all sentient life within three radii of the Milky Way's Galactic center, by sending out radiation, targeting certain cells in the nervous system, which includes, but is not limited to, neurons, by harmonizing all neurological frequencies."
But yes, it is "just another sci-fi God weapon", just as with the Shadow/Vorlon planet-killers, Exterminatus, the Death Star, the Reapers, the Flood, the Yuuzhan Vong, mass drivers or any sort of orbital bombardment, the Tyranid Hive Fleets, the Q continuum (literally beings with god powers)...if we discount all God weapons, what's the point of this argument? The God weapons are the best weapons/dudes available in their respective universes. Ignore them, and IoM generally=win.
Also, I think the Q could hands-down win the battle, even just one of them. ("Oooooh a million marines and tens of thousands of billions of IG? Ok, they're gone now.") They don't use psychic powers to win things, they just have complete control over time, space, and matter, and as such I doubt even the Chaos Gods of the Emperor fight back. (The Chaos Gods are powerful, but not omnipotent, and even if they were, Qs together can wipe out another Q, perhaps the same with Chaos?)
EDIT: also, according to Halopedia, "Each Installation has a maximum effective radius of 25,000 light-years, and is apparently of the "highest possible threat assessment from biological contamination and radiological annihilation".The pulse is designed to kill all sentient life in the Installation's three-dimensional radius, with the entire array covering the entire galaxy"
21392
Post by: Cambak
And can be destroyed by the meltdown of a ship based nuclear reactor before it can fire.
Also I know WHO can defeat the IoM!
20243
Post by: Grey Templar
Elector wrote:Grey Templar wrote:the Halo rings arn't a very scientific weapon. How does it differentiate all sentient life from non-sentient?
it really is just another sci-fi "God" weapon.
Ok, good point, so I looked it up on Halopedia (Halo wiki) and apparently: " When activated, the Halo rings would wipe out all sentient life within three radii of the Milky Way's Galactic center, by sending out radiation, targeting certain cells in the nervous system, which includes, but is not limited to, neurons, by harmonizing all neurological frequencies."
thats a whole lotta bull. all life with a central nervous system will have those neurons and it would take many centuries for the radiation to cover the whole galaxy.
Exterminatus certaintly has a little stretching of science in it as far as the speed goes(hours for the virus to do its work) and it would necessitate certain atmospheric variables, but is 100% sound in principal.
there are many flesh eating Bacteria. an advanced enough society with proper tech could engineer a virus that causes mass cell death in all living tissue(plant and animal), eventually resulting in the entire planet being swathed in organic gases with no life remaining to decompose these gases. when torched these gases will combust effectivly setting the planet on fire.
33279
Post by: BearersOfSalvation
The Lensman universe actually has more respect for brute force than the Imperium - instead of using wimpy asteroids for a kinetic strike, they'll use an entire planet. When they run into a planet shielded enough to stand up to that, they'll annihilate two planets, one of them made of of negative matter and one normal. They handle galactic-scale organization and conquest of a second galaxy, so don't have any problems of scale. Most critically, they're one of the few universes that could not only defeat the Imperium, but occupy it, and finally could avoid becoming raving slaves to the chaos powers afterwards, since Lensmen are absolutely incorruptible.
10928
Post by: Elector
Grey Templar wrote:Elector wrote:Grey Templar wrote:the Halo rings arn't a very scientific weapon. How does it differentiate all sentient life from non-sentient?
it really is just another sci-fi "God" weapon.
Ok, good point, so I looked it up on Halopedia (Halo wiki) and apparently: " When activated, the Halo rings would wipe out all sentient life within three radii of the Milky Way's Galactic center, by sending out radiation, targeting certain cells in the nervous system, which includes, but is not limited to, neurons, by harmonizing all neurological frequencies."
thats a whole lotta bull. all life with a central nervous system will have those neurons and it would take many centuries for the radiation to cover the whole galaxy.
Exterminatus certaintly has a little stretching of science in it as far as the speed goes(hours for the virus to do its work) and it would necessitate certain atmospheric variables, but is 100% sound in principal.
there are many flesh eating Bacteria. an advanced enough society with proper tech could engineer a virus that causes mass cell death in all living tissue(plant and animal), eventually resulting in the entire planet being swathed in organic gases with no life remaining to decompose these gases. when torched these gases will combust effectivly setting the planet on fire.
Ok, seriously dude, we're discussing a universe where people are literally eaten alive by a Hive Fleet of planet-eating bugs and are tortured living, breathing Daemons, and where we have a million super-powered "Incredible Hulk in Iron Man suits" running around....and you're arguing about realism? Are the SM, the Q, the Death Star, the Shadows/Vorlons, or anything else here more plausible?
The topic of this thread is " IoM vs anything", so that's what I put forward, I was just doing what everyone else, pitching an idea about a sci-fi universe vs the Imperium, cuz, lets be honest, most of sci-fi can be described as "a whole lotta bull", but we enjoy because of that, that it's a universe outside our own without our rules.
35191
Post by: Void_Dragon
I reckon Daleks could win, assuming they were at the 'height' of their power. They could travel back in time to when the Emperor was a baby and kill him. Otherwise if they started losing, they could build their super-weapon shown in the episode, "Journey's End", which would destroy all life in the universe, while they stayed safe in their pocket of time.
I still also reckon that the Replicators of Stargate would win. Have a look at this thread in which 40K vs. Replicators has also been discussed:
http://www.sciforums.com/showthread.php?s=3a2192bd14146eb010871f3be14e8d08&t=90914
And, do you think the Ori, Goa'uld and Ancients would stand a chance? The Replicators would have beaten all of them, so I guess it's up to the Replicators to hold the day for Stargate.
( Lol, first post)
28235
Post by: Necroman
Any post-time war Dalek empire should win; the Doctor mentioned them annihilating entire timelines, and they fought the Timelords on an equal scale (Who have the ability to become sentient godlike beings temporarily by looking into the TARDIS). The reality bomb is major overkill.
Grey Templar wrote:the Halo rings arn't a very scientific weapon.
Sci-fi is usually not scientific, no matter how hard it tries to be. There are exceptions to the rule, but they are just that: Exceptions.
Not to mention that Warhammer 40K isn't scientific in the least.
20243
Post by: Grey Templar
Necroman wrote:Any post-time war Dalek empire should win; the Doctor mentioned them annihilating entire timelines, and they fought the Timelords on an equal scale (Who have the ability to become sentient godlike beings temporarily by looking into the TARDIS). The reality bomb is major overkill.
Grey Templar wrote:the Halo rings arn't a very scientific weapon.
Sci-fi is usually not scientific, no matter how hard it tries to be. There are exceptions to the rule, but they are just that: Exceptions.
Not to mention that Warhammer 40K isn't scientific in the least.
most of the weapons in 40k are somewhat scientific.
Bolters use real tech so could be made right now..
Plasma weapons utilize the Magnetic envelope theory which, if true and assuming Plasma could be created and contained in a man-portable device, would make an effective weapon.
Laz weapons work on the same theory as Plasma weapons as they are really plasma pulses rather then any type of Coherent Light.
40k does a very good job of explaining the things that arn't scientific. many other sci-fi universes don't even attempt to explain how they work. or they come up with a very bizarre explanation on the edge of comprehention. "Halo rings work by destroying the Neurons in all sentient life durr" = lame. a better weapon would be that it wipes out all animal life, that would be within the realm of possability, but to desire your viewer to belive that a weapon/computer system can distinguish between sentient and non-sentient life is rediculous.
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Post by: Frazzled
keezus wrote:Wait... you mean in BFG, shields only help against weapon batteries? By what mechanism are torpedoes immune to shields? Why would the solid projectiles from the weapon batteries be stopped? Why aren't lances stopped...
Void shields = WTF.
you got it.
27277
Post by: starhawks1
I always get a little peeved reading these discussions, and it never gets anywhere and no-one changes anyone's opinions but I will say the imperium of man, if they took on any other universe/race/anything, would win...seriously, you can argue maneuverability all you want but in the end the size and manpower of the imperium would overcome anything
1795
Post by: keezus
Grey Templar wrote:40k does a very good job of explaining the things that arn't scientific. many other sci-fi universes don't even attempt to explain how they work. or they come up with a very bizarre explanation on the edge of comprehention.
I hope you are kidding... 40k does a very good job of explaining the things that aren't scientific - in a way that makes ABSOLUTELY NO SENSE.
EXHIBIT A: Stated method of function is contradicted by all depictions of operation.
Bolters fire mini-rockets. Rocket weapons are caseless. Bolters have case ejection ports and are shown to eject cases in all official artwork.
EXHIBIT B: Equipment's nomenclature is improperly applied due to difference in function or depictions of operation.
Gauss weapons are stated as working by stripping molecules from the target "layer by layer". In described effect, they seem to work as a directed disintegration beam. Nevermind that the stated function and effect are different - but the title GAUSS is a misnomer as well! Also, lasguns apparently don't shoot lasers (although lascannons seem to!)
EXHIBIT C: Stated method of function is incapable of performing depicted mode of operation.
Plasma reactors are stated in GW publications as FUSION BASED. They ignore the laws of conservation of energy, fuel consumption and are afforded efficiency greater than the limits of energy production possible using fusion as a process. Supporters state this is due to being "super advanced". That's like saying that a "super advanced" piston driven internal combustion engine can provide enough energy to launch your propeller driven airplane into orbit because it's very high tech.
EXHIBIT D: Mode of operation is unclear, stated method of function is not indicated.
Void shields and warp travel are "super technologies" which are never defined.
27277
Post by: starhawks1
keezus wrote:EXHIBIT A: Stated method of function is contradicted by all depictions of operation.[/b]
Bolters fire mini-rockets. Rocket weapons are caseless. Bolters have case ejection ports and are shown to eject cases in all official artwork.
wrong
http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/323719.page
20243
Post by: Grey Templar
keezus wrote:
EXHIBIT A: Stated method of function is contradicted by all depictions of operation.
Bolters fire mini-rockets. Rocket weapons are caseless. Bolters have case ejection ports and are shown to eject cases in all official artwork.
Nowhere are bolters ever claimed to be caseless(in current fluff) Bolters have 2 stages, an initial Explosive stage(identical to current solid slug firearms) and a rocket stage that ignites after leaving the barrel
EXHIBIT B: Equipment's nomenclature is improperly applied due to difference in function or depictions of operation.
Gauss weapons are stated as working by stripping molecules from the target "layer by layer". In described effect, they seem to work as a directed disintegration beam. Nevermind that the stated function and effect are different - but the title GAUSS is a misnomer as well! Also, lasguns apparently don't shoot lasers (although lascannons seem to!)
Gauss is an inconsistancy, but they are called Gauss "Flayers" so this is forgivable. Las weaponry(lascannons and guns) do NOT, and never are claimed, to use Lasers. they are plasma pulse weapons much like T'au pulse rifles and use a Tech similer to Plasma weapons
EXHIBIT C: Stated method of function can not performed depicted mode of operation.Plasma reactors are stated in GW publications as FUSION BASED. They ignore the laws of conservation of energy, fuel consumption and are afforded efficiency greater than the limits of energy production possible using fusion as a process. Supporters state this is due to being "super advanced". That's like saying that a "super advanced" piston driven internal combustion engine can provide enough energy to launch your propeller driven airplane into orbit because it's very high tech.
How do the Fusion reacters violate the Conservation of energy? Modern day Fission reacters can go 20 years without refueling, i would imagine Fission would be similer
EXHIBIT D: Mode of operation is unclear, stated method of function is not indicated.
Void shields and warp travel are "super technologies" which are never defined.
Warp travel is intra-dimentional. it rips a hole in reality to allow a solid object(or energy) to pass into the other dimention. Void shields work the same way by using a power source to teliport incoming energy and solid objects into the Warp. when the power source is overloaded the shield ceases to function. naturally these can't be explained scientifically as they involve a spiritual plane(the warp) where no scientific principals apply. the same thing applies to subatomic paritcles. they don't follow any scientific laws.
10470
Post by: shrike
Necrons- pfft.
Tau- C'mon. Of course.
Chaos- Tried it. failed.
Eldar- Endangered species.
Dark Eldar- Endangered species+.
Orks- too disorganised.
Tyranids- most likely to do it.
1795
Post by: keezus
Grey Templar wrote:Nowhere are bolters ever claimed to be caseless(in current fluff) Bolters have 2 stages, an initial Explosive stage(identical to current solid slug firearms) and a rocket stage that ignites after leaving the barrel[/size]
Hmmm... the official diagram here would beg to differ. http://warhammer40k.wikia.com/wiki/Bolter_Ammunition
Grey Templar wrote:Gauss is an inconsistancy, but they are called Gauss "Flayers" so this is forgivable. Las weaponry(lascannons and guns) do NOT, and never are claimed, to use Lasers. they are plasma pulse weapons much like T'au pulse rifles and use a Tech similer to Plasma weapons
Good to see you hold them to the high standards of "doing a pretty good job explaining" things... I suppose as a lasgun is a "plasma weapon" - this explains why you can recharge the damned thing in a fire, because clearly, something that fires plasma wouldn't need something as mundane as uh... ammunition.
Grey Templar wrote:How do the Fusion reacters violate the Conservation of energy? Modern day Fission reacters can go 20 years without refueling, i would imagine Fission would be similer
Well, that wouldn't be a problem if the Plasma reactors were to output a reasonable amount of energy - but I guess you didn't read any of the preceeding posts noting that starship reactors put out anywhere from 0.1-1.0 solar output/s level energy while being less than 10^14x smaller. That's a minor detail though... right?
Grey Templar wrote:Warp travel is intra-dimentional. it rips a hole in reality to allow a solid object(or energy) to pass into the other dimention. Void shields work the same way by using a power source to teliport incoming energy and solid objects into the Warp. when the power source is overloaded the shield ceases to function. naturally these can't be explained scientifically as they involve a spiritual plane(the warp) where no scientific principals apply. the same thing applies to subatomic paritcles. they don't follow any scientific laws.
You were doing great until the "subatomic particles don't follow scientific laws part". So basically you've just confirmed that none of how it works is really explained. It's a good thing that GW does a good job 'splaining these technologies... not like:
Grey Templar wrote:many other sci-fi universes don't even attempt to explain how they work. or they come up with a very bizarre explanation on the edge of comprehention. "
Oh wait...
33279
Post by: BearersOfSalvation
keezus wrote:EXHIBIT C: Stated method of function is incapable of performing depicted mode of operation.
Plasma reactors are stated in GW publications as FUSION BASED. They ignore the laws of conservation of energy, fuel consumption and are afforded efficiency greater than the limits of energy production possible using fusion as a process. Supporters state this is due to being "super advanced". That's like saying that a "super advanced" piston driven internal combustion engine can provide enough energy to launch your propeller driven airplane into orbit because it's very high tech.
Last time this came up, no one was able to actually tell what GW publications say they're FUSION BASED. None of the BFG books do, nor any 40k books, or any RPG books. I think someone found a mention of a non-technical character in a BL book using the word fusion in relation to one, but that's just a case of a non-technical character using a technical word loosely. The thought process seems to be 'plasma is used in fusion reactors, therefore plasma reactors must be fusion reactors, but plasma reactors don't act like fusion reactors, therefore GW screwed up the terminology!' which is circular reasoning.
27277
Post by: starhawks1
keezus wrote:Grey Templar wrote:Nowhere are bolters ever claimed to be caseless(in current fluff) Bolters have 2 stages, an initial Explosive stage(identical to current solid slug firearms) and a rocket stage that ignites after leaving the barrel[/size]
Hmmm... the official diagram here would beg to differ. http://warhammer40k.wikia.com/wiki/Bolter_Ammunition
again though, I direct you to my earlier post...
33279
Post by: BearersOfSalvation
Grey Templar wrote:How do the Fusion reacters violate the Conservation of energy? Modern day Fission reacters can go 20 years without refueling, i would imagine Fission would be similer
If you run the numbers on what ships do, 40k Plasma reactors produce far more energy than 100% efficient conversion of their fuel into energy would provide. Whatever they actually do isn't anything in real physics, most likely they don't burn fuel for energy but burn fuel to hold open a conduit to drag energy out of the warp or something along those lines. FYI, Pretty much all SF spaceship drive and power systems are completely outside of modern physics, remotely realistic drives just don't give the kind of sustained accelerations on negligible fuel supplies. Realistic self-contained space drives end up needing fuel massing 10 or more times the rest of the ship just to get up to and back down from a small fraction of c one time.
It's unlikely that fusion reactors would go for so long without fueling, because their fuel is hydrogen (maybe helium) not the uranium that a fission reactor uses. Fission reactors have a long lifespan because fission fuels like uranium are extremely dense, so it's easy to fit a given mass of uranium into a fairly small area. Packing hydrogen that densely would be difficult and pointless, especially since we currently care about tracking nuclear material (so like having it in one place) but not hydrogen. And again, 40k (and most SF) ships consume power that dwarfs the lifetime power output of any modern power plant in a typical fight.
18375
Post by: AndrewC
BearersOfSalvation wrote:keezus wrote:Plasma reactors are stated in GW publications as FUSION BASED...
Last time this came up, no one was able to actually tell what GW publications say they're FUSION BASED. None of the BFG books do, nor any 40k books, or any RPG books. I think someone found a mention of a non-technical character in a BL book using the word fusion in relation to one, but that's just a case of a non-technical character using a technical word loosely. The thought process seems to be 'plasma is used in fusion reactors, therefore plasma reactors must be fusion reactors, but plasma reactors don't act like fusion reactors, therefore GW screwed up the terminology!' which is circular reasoning.
It's not quite circular, but it is a better baseline than the "it works because we said so". There is no other description to go by, which causes a lot of the problems. You suggest that the generators hold open a conduit to the warp to access energy, but there is nothing there to support that assumption. It's not called a warp reactor is it? We shouldn't just create something to prop up a viewpoint, and both parties can be accused of that, if there is evidence of something by all means use it, but if there isn't... Terminology aside, using either fusion, fission, or plasma reactors none of them are capable of producing the amount of energy required by some of the 'claimed' wepons stats. As I said earlier, based on what we know now, there is insufficent fuel on the entire planet earth to create enough energy for one lance shot.
Spaceship drives.
Another bugbear. Based on what I can find and infer from various sources, BFG, Warp Rift, some BL.
Tau create a gravitational point infront of their ships and that pulls them along, something akin to rolling down a hill.
Eldar. Solar winds.
Necron. Inertialess drives, (and I shudder to suggest it) seems to be a version of ST warp/impulse
Dark eldar. ?
Nids. Flatulence?  
IoM/Chaos. Reaction drives.
All these ships move, accelerate, brake at the same rate, ignoring Necrons. All of these drives seem capable of the same results, but only at the very lower end of the scale, not the 9000Gs some would suggest.
Cheers
Andrew
@Frazzled, whats happened? You're pink!!!!
35191
Post by: Void_Dragon
starhawks1 wrote:I always get a little peeved reading these discussions, and it never gets anywhere and no-one changes anyone's opinions but I will say the imperium of man, if they took on any other universe/race/anything, would win...seriously, you can argue maneuverability all you want but in the end the size and manpower of the imperium would overcome anything
Not really. Like in the previous post I made, the Daleks would win. They have a massive technology advantage (except against Necrons who are pure awesome) and would easily overwhelm the Imperium. They could just hop back in time and blow Terra to smithereens. There goes your Imperium problem
Also, again. What do you guys think of the Replicators vs. IOM? I still really think the Replicators would win.
221
Post by: Frazzled
@Frazzled, whats happened? You're pink!!!!
Breast cancer awareness month.
18375
Post by: AndrewC
Good answer, good cause.
Andrew
34826
Post by: ChaosGalvatron
Q from star trek. He uses his powers to make everyone in the imperium kill themselves. the end.
1795
Post by: keezus
BearersOfSalvation wrote:Last time this came up, no one was able to actually tell what GW publications say they're FUSION BASED. None of the BFG books do, nor any 40k books, or any RPG books. I think someone found a mention of a non-technical character in a BL book using the word fusion in relation to one, but that's just a case of a non-technical character using a technical word loosely. The thought process seems to be 'plasma is used in fusion reactors, therefore plasma reactors must be fusion reactors, but plasma reactors don't act like fusion reactors, therefore GW screwed up the terminology!' which is circular reasoning.
-sigh-
http://warhammer40k.wikia.com/wiki/Imperial_Navy wrote:Reference: Ironclad
Ironclads, much like their contemporary Imperial Navy counterparts, the battleships, are vast 8-kilometre-long vessels which lack the void shielding of their battleship counterparts in favour of meters of adamantium plate armour. These warships, built before the advent of void-screen technology, have since been phased out of production by the Imperium, for the main part, to be replaced by more modern designs. However, those remaining in service have been recommissioned for a variety of purposes; various pattern ironclads may be retrofitted with gargantuan, ship-, station- and even planet-killer cannon running the entire length of the ship's keel, linked directly to the stern fusion reactors; others may simply be braced and reinforced for the purpose of ramming into - and through - enemy vessels.
http://warhammer40k.wikia.com/wiki/Imperial_Navy wrote:Torpedoes are long-range missiles carried by many Imperial Navy vessels. From ~60 feet (on destroyers) to ~200 feet (on cruisers) to ~300 feet (on battleships) in length, these weapons are powered by a fusion-based plasma reactor which also doubles as its warhead.
http://warhammer40k.wikia.com/wiki/Imperial_Navy wrote:Propulsion systems
Every Imperial starship is equipped with a fusion-based plasma drive for normal propulsion through the depths of space. Running up to a third of the ship's length, the aft section is a mass of drive tubes, engine compartments and plasma reactors.
http://warhammer40k.wikia.com/wiki/Imperial_Navy wrote:Sources:
Abnett, Dan (2005). Double Eagle. Nottingham: Black Library. ISBN 1-84416-090-4.
Rennie, Gordon (2001). Execution Hour. Nottingham: Black Library. ISBN 1-84154-142-7.
Chambers, Andy. Battlefleet Gothic Rulebook (PDF). Games Workshop. Retrieved on 2006-03-01.
Chambers, Andy; Johnson, Jervis, and Thorpe, Gav (2000). Warhammer 40,000 Codex: Armageddon, 1st Edition, Nottingham: Games Workshop. ISBN 1-84154-045-5.
33279
Post by: BearersOfSalvation
*sigh* indeed, since I asked for GW sources, not 'some guy on the internet thinks'. A wiki is just user edited content, it's a nice guide to find things and often can provide correct information, but it's not a reliable source, and a wiki reference is essentially worthless for determining a question of specific wording, which is what this is. Last time this came up I dug through all of the BFG PDFs and couldn't find a single reference to the power plants as being fusion. A direct quote from a GW source would work, but a wiki page that lists multiple GW sources, at least one of which doesn't back your point, simply doesn't.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
AndrewC wrote:It's not quite circular, but it is a better baseline than the "it works because we said so". There is no other description to go by, which causes a lot of the problems. You suggest that the generators hold open a conduit to the warp to access energy, but there is nothing there to support that assumption. It's not called a warp reactor is it?
No, 'they're fusion' it's a worse baseline than 'they do something that's not fusion', because it's obviously wrong and not actually supported by anything GW wrote. My suggestion comes from simply combining what GW has written (which provides the power levels) with real physics (you can't get that much energy from any real fuel), and concluding that the drive must be getting energy from some other source. "The warp" is simply a guess based on the fact that a lot of unexplained things in 40k tie back to the warp, and you seem to have missed that I simply listed that as one possibility.
I really don't get the mindset that leads people here to insist 'those must be fusion engines even though we've demonstrated that they can't possibly be fusion engines'. If fusion engines can't possibly have the characteristics described, doesn't that lead to the conclusion that they're not fusion, much the same way that if someone says they have a dog but describe an elephant, you conclude that they have an elephant and not a dog?
34612
Post by: Ledabot
Why does everybody write so much? I lack the attention span and fluff know how to write anywere the same amount as you guys
20243
Post by: Grey Templar
Ledabot wrote:Why does everybody write so much? I lack the attention span and fluff know how to write anywere the same amount as you guys
it's just a bunch of guys waving their E-peens about how much they know about the fluff.
17923
Post by: Asherian Command
shrike wrote:
Tau- C'mon. Of course.
No the tau can't even leave their empire as they DON'T HAVE WARP CAPABILITIES!
Their ships = fail.
But Yes I agree Reapers would pwn the Imperium
26597
Post by: TheCyben
All this tech argument misses the point (again) that NO sci fi which is cool can be utterly plausible. As such the rule of cool is the ultimate decider. Star Trek cannot win vs the IoM by this logic as Star Trek involves spandex clothing and Deep Space 9. Star Wars galaxy stands a chance BEFORE the horrible prequels, but is put out of the running ENTIRELY by Binks. Halo combined-forces Covenant/human armada has a great chance at inflicting some damage... although it's a bit too popular with XboX kids and l337 multiplayer pwn-snobs to crack the 'purity' of TTG elitism. Sci-fi franchises which exist only in books (the Culture, the Polity, the Lensmen etc) are intellectually on the high ground, but where's the neat artwork and 3-d gibs?
The ultimate horror from GW's perspective is some kind of expanded Warmachine universe, in which numbers of dreadnaughts and warjacks are pretty much equal. Discuss.
17923
Post by: Asherian Command
Halo forces? Really no...
As the Imperium of man has Warp Drives and lance weaponary which make the Mac cannons look like las guns.
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Post by: Grey Templar
Halo loses by virtue that the main character falls in love with a virtual women.
it's not REAL Chief, It's NOT real.
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Post by: Asherian Command
Grey Templar wrote:Halo loses by virtue that the main character falls in love with a virtual women.
it's not REAL Chief, It's NOT real.
lol so true.
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Post by: TheMostSlyFox
Imperium wins on a logical scale, seeing as most forces that are referenced in this thread are being with supernatural abilities beyond conception.
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Post by: Mukkin'About
Squats would win. there's a REASON why they were written out. Too much of a threat, and boy have they got a grudge!!
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Post by: Valkarie
if anyone could stop the IOM it would be the IOM, a chaos deamon prince turns up and they all run over to it and fight for Chaos instead.
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Post by: chwheel
Warhammer 40K looses to Tenga Toppa Gurren Lagann, you just cant compete with throwing GALAXIES as shurikan.
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Post by: Terminus
BearersOfSalvation wrote:
*sigh* indeed, since I asked for GW sources, not 'some guy on the internet thinks'. A wiki is just user edited content, it's a nice guide to find things and often can provide correct information, but it's not a reliable source, and a wiki reference is essentially worthless for determining a question of specific wording, which is what this is. Last time this came up I dug through all of the BFG PDFs and couldn't find a single reference to the power plants as being fusion. A direct quote from a GW source would work, but a wiki page that lists multiple GW sources, at least one of which doesn't back your point, simply doesn't.
The only mention of reactors or propulsion systems in the BFG .pdfs describes them as "hyper plasmatic reactors", "plasma reactors", or simply "reactors". The word "fusion" does not appear at all in any of the documents.
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Post by: matthiasguy1
Well, this thread deserves it!
Anyway if one Empire were to beat the IOM with minimal losses it would be the UUEL (United Universes Enforcement League). Well it would be more of a curb stomp really.
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Post by: reds8n
Thread is being locked due to thread necromancy.
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