So lately I have seen a rising trend in making paper tanks based on GW designs and while I am all for scratch building this trend is starting to piss me off something fierce.....
I do not have any problem at all with someone building one up well with plasticard, painting it and using it, but what I am seeing is a growing trend of gamers making out of paper, foam board or similar glueing haphazardly and passing it off as a tank....
I am the first person the advocate using proxies, scratchbuilding minis, using model cars (Im looking at you ork players....) etc. etc. etc. but this current trend is sickening me.....
I for one am putting my foot down and refusing to play against people without at least a scrap of effort (hell we had a player with pipe cleaner models with googly eyes as count as bloodletters and I played him all the time without a problem) but this is getting ridiculous.....
Does anyone agree / disagree? Why or Why not......
I know I cant be the only only one who hates this type of attitude
Soo, scratchbuilding is fine, but only if you think it looks good?
Not everyone is good at scratchbuilding/modelling, and not everyone has the time to put alot of effort in.
Don't get me wrong, if someone was using a pipecleaner army for a long time, and showed no indication of ever improving it etc, I'd start to ask them why, but I certainly wouldnt refuse to play them.
Its much the same as painted vs non-painted, it doesnt really bother me unless the person doing it never actually intends to paint at all
Playing against a largely paper craft army is like playing against an unpainted one, I'll play, but I won't enjoy it as much.
For me it has to be decent, you can print templates off the internet and with some time and patience make something that isn't too shabby. As long as they either replace it eventually, or go all out to make something amazing (there are a couple epic paper craft threads here and I would have no problems playing against any of the vehicles posted therein).
del'Vhar wrote:Soo, scratchbuilding is fine, but only if you think it looks good?
Not everyone is good at scratchbuilding/modelling, and not everyone has the time to put alot of effort in.
Don't get me wrong, if someone was using a pipecleaner army for a long time, and showed no indication of ever improving it etc, I'd start to ask them why, but I certainly wouldnt refuse to play them.
Its much the same as painted vs non-painted, it doesnt really bother me unless the person doing it never actually intends to paint at all
So you'll play a player that probably bought his rhinos pre built(badly) from ebay, and not one who clearly put more work into folding and cutting the paper needed to make the tank?
If i spend more time painting should i not play against people who spent fewer hours painting? If effort was put in and the model is recognizable, i have no issue. Good for them, Gw doesnt need the loot anyway.
Thats exactly what Im saying....built well is awesome I love scratchbuilds......but Im talking about these kids that print the templates cut them out and glue them playing with basicly computer paper....its ridiculous.
im sorry i posted before reading the whole thread.
Yes scratch built tanks that have had care put into their construction will fly with me, a cardboard box with rhino written on it, not so much.
I played against a Necron player with two Monoliths. However, one was a couple dozen Yu-Gi-Oh cards taped together, making a vague silhouette of a Monolith. I didn't let him use it.
Brother SRM wrote:I played against a Necron player with two Monoliths. However, one was a couple dozen Yu-Gi-Oh cards taped together, making a vague silhouette of a Monolith. I didn't let him use it.
That would be in interesting game...you destroy said yugiohlith and he gleefully exclaims, "You've activated my trap card!"
If the OP was complaining about poorly made scratchbuilds in general, I'd agree with him, but singling out the material rather than the quality of the final product makes no sense. Paper and cereal box cardboard can make pretty good models, if I do say so myself.
AlexHolker wrote:If the OP was complaining about poorly made scratchbuilds in general, I'd agree with him, but singling out the material rather than the quality of the final product makes no sense. Paper and cereal box cardboard can make pretty good models, if I do say so myself.
I would be tempted to light those on fire when you weren't looking...
sworth9411 wrote:Thats exactly what Im saying....built well is awesome I love scratchbuilds......but Im talking about these kids that print the templates cut them out and glue them playing with basicly computer paper....its ridiculous.
But those same kids are putting effort in. They are trying at least. Some kids are not good at painting and don't have the patience.
I see where you're coming from but unless it's a total pile of poop and they bring a cereal packet, or 3, which is meant to be landraiders or a bike sqaudron I don't really find it a problem. Some will as LOS and other things can be affected but if some effort is there they always get some latitude.
AlexHolker wrote:If the OP was complaining about poorly made scratchbuilds in general, I'd agree with him, but singling out the material rather than the quality of the final product makes no sense. Paper and cereal box cardboard can make pretty good models, if I do say so myself.
If I shot a flamer at that would it be an automatic pen?
To some extent I can agree with the OP. Ive seen bionicle defilers. Provided he brought them out and was planning on buying the models id be fine with it for a few games. If he was planning on making ti a perminant addition to his army I would tell him to find a new game.
sworth9411 wrote:Apparently I didnt explain properly....
if your putting the time an effort into it Im there by all means aesthetic is a personal thing but seriously.....
if your gonna throw something together half assed it pisses me off and I dont particuarly like playing those people.
After speaking with our local gaming group we all agreed.....and I figured there would be some supporters.
I think what you were trying to say is that you dislike it when someone's army look absolutely atrocious and they aren't prepared to invest time or money into making it look good?
sworth9411 wrote:So lately I have seen a rising trend in making paper tanks based on GW designs and while I am all for scratch building this trend is starting to piss me off something fierce.....
t......
I know I cant be the only only one who hates this type of attitude
You are not the only one.
For folks that like paper that much, and don;t have the resources to play Warhammer, there are always card and role playing games.
I once berated an Ork player for using plastic fire trucks from the dollar store for his Ork trucks. Sometimes I refuse to play people with unpainted armies of REAL GW Tanks! If you made yours out of paper, I wouldn't even acknowledge you are a player at all. If I saw people trying to play with paper tanks in a store, I'd be hard pressed not to say something abrasive, and at least say," You should really buy a tank like that here".
I don't care if 'kids' are 'trying' anyone who can't afford the basic gear, get out, play in your own house, and come back when you have the means.
Also, to be explicit, making a cheap paper proxy is not a scratch build.
I agree with the OP some what.
I've seen all types of scratch builds. From the 4x Toilet paper rolls hot glued to some sabol foam cut offs = warhond and 2 rhinos with a paper towel roll = ordniatus.
I've also seen amazing warhound made from an AT-AT, a plastic cup and Darth Vader's TIE fighter. It really depends on personal taste. The same guy who built the AT-AT warhound also "built" bunkers out of pie tins with nuts hot glued on for vision slits. It really depends on the amount of effort put into a project rather than personal skill.
Darn, I thought this was going to be a thread about how to make paper tanks, which I would have loved! Preferably little ones a la grot tanks, rather than the big GW vehicles...
And you know I love your work, sanford! (Particularly the work you did for me ) and it looks like you're only talking about people who put no effort into it. But a good papercraft tank would be very hard to pull off, I think, given my very limited attempts at oragami... so if someone did it well I'd be all for it and then some!
Only the wealthy are allowed to play the Sacred Game
Don't fret about creativity, just spend your way to an army.
Slap with a slice of lemon, wrapped around a gold brick for the first person to write, "If you can't afford the models don't play the game."
oops too late it's been said.
Ah well at least it was more eloquently put than the usual plutocratic speil Augustus.
Only makes me more determined to proxy stuff when I hear someone spouting that sort of drivel
To me, it's a game. If somebody wants to play but doesn't have the money to buy all the necessary toys, I don't mind. As long as it looks like what it's supposed to be and is roughly the same size, I'm cool wit dat.
Chibi Bodge-Battle wrote:Only the wealthy are allowed to play the Sacred Game
Don't fret about creativity, just spend your way to an army.
Slap with a slice of lemon, wrapped around a gold brick for the first person to write, "If you can't afford the models don't play the game."
oops too late it's been said.
Ah well at least it was more eloquently put than the usual plutocratic speil Augustus.
Only makes me more determined to proxy stuff when I hear someone spouting that sort of drivel
We can't hear you from up on your moral high ground, Chibi.
We paid for our tanks, if you aren't paying, please put the time in to make them look acceptable.
I think it's OK to be offended by someone who looks down on others for making an excellent scratch build. However, I think sanford meant this thread about those who don't put much effort into them.
I still would allow a subpar scratch build for someone I knew was trying to get into an army and just didn't have the funds to buy the model yet.
An excellent scratch build, on the other hand, I'd love to play against even more than the actual model
Ordo
Sorry but I am not claiming the high ground
The constant refrain on these sorts of posts is about exclusion, which sorry if it does sound moralistic, I feel obliged to oppose.
Sorry also if I object to people looking down their noses at us poor waifs
I have no problem with the many members here who spend more on gaming per week than I have to live on.
Most of them just express the joy and pleasure of being able to engage in their hobby.
For such people I am genuinely made up for them. It is great to see the enthusiasm and take pleasure from other peoples' enjoyment.
I think we all agree it is better to have stunning models on the table. But the swiping at us plebs is not acceptable.
For my part I enjoy the creative hobbyside.
As far as I am aware there are no restrictions against that on Dakka. Yet some of the posts here would seem to indicate otherwise.
Some paper stuff can actually look quite good. I don't mind if someone wants to save a buck as long as they make a real effort to make it look good and have proper dimensions, etc.
But if I was playing a complete stranger in a store that pulled out a paper rhino made with notebook paper and crayons, I'd play em not to be a dick, then not play em again.
If one of my friends did the same, I'd play em and besure to make fun of em for it.
In the end, who cares. It's just a game and it's really not that big of a deal to me what people use to play with (within reason), as long as the game is fun.
I think the idea here is that anything can make a good model, even paper and crayon if it's obvious you've at least TRIED. I mean, if someone had obviously expended alot of his time and effort building his paperhammer army, I'd play him/her. It's not their fault they can't afford to drop the same amount of money I have on my figures, different means and all.
However, if they have obviously NOT put any effort whatsoever, and just want to use the unit because it sounds "uber cool" in the codex, and their using a soda cup drop pod...or as was mentioned a cereal box Titan? THERE I draw the line. I play for the game, but I also play to see my little Imperial Guardsmen fight enemy monsters, or towering super soldiers. Not soda bottles that are pretending to be whatever. (See TSOALR)
Yes, White Dwarf used to have articles about how to build Ork vehicles from cereal boxes. I used their "Blitzwagon" template to build the orignal style battlewagons from cardboard because my FLGS couldn't get them in.
In the more recent past, I have become a proficient cardstock modeller. Building and painting the GW kit is easier for me than rendering the model templates with color and texture in Photoshop. I save that for my terrain, most of which is commercially avilable and only needs a little alteration to 40K-ify.
sworth9411 wrote:True the legendary Deodorant Tank....I think Rogue trader had instructions even haha...
Rogue Trader didn't.
A WD of the time did.
I think mates and I made about a dozen of them between us. Deodorant flasks, plastic spoons and weapons from all kinds of SF toys.
I've seen some exceptional papercraft tanks - and some incredibly ineptly put together plastic models. The badly assembled plastic kits very much outnumber the bad papercraft. I would much rather play against a well made and good looking army than a puddle of glue with random bits stuck to it, whether it is plastic army mens or paper/card.
Perspective is everything - it's hard to see the big picture up there on the horse.
I wouldn't turn up my nose at a paper tank in a friendly match. But I don't think I would want to play against that army again. On the internet I have seen many very good looking paper vehicles. But this is a miniature battle game and I would feel cheated that my opponent somehow didn't put in the same effort that I had. It may not be rational, but that's my take on it.
SPARKEYG wrote:I wouldn't turn up my nose at a paper tank in a friendly match. But I don't think I would want to play against that army again. On the internet I have seen many very good looking paper vehicles. But this is a miniature battle game and I would feel cheated that my opponent somehow didn't put in the same effort that I had. It may not be rational, but that's my take on it.
A good looking paper tank takes more effort than the equivalent plastic model, assuming you don't fund your GW habit by working in some third-world sweatshop for pennies a day. But if you like making things, or if you want to create your own variants that still look like STC vehicles without buying half a dozen FW kits for parts, papercraft can be worth it.
Jesus this is what's wrong with Dakka..and the hobby.
As long as the "modeling" doesn't create an in-game advantage..who cares? Are your delicate sensibilities going to be so offended..nay!...mortally wounded by a POS paper tank that you can't play the person?
Sounds more like the paper builder has hit you where it hurts... they didn't have to pay gobs of money or put in crazy effort... their "effort" makes your investment of time and money seem ridiculous.
Just play the game. Just model. Just paint. Leave your pretensions behind..they just hinder you from enjoying this "game."
SPARKEYG wrote:I wouldn't turn up my nose at a paper tank in a friendly match. But I don't think I would want to play against that army again. On the internet I have seen many very good looking paper vehicles. But this is a miniature battle game and I would feel cheated that my opponent somehow didn't put in the same money that I had. It may not be rational, but that's my take on it.
Fixed that for you. I'm working on scratchbuilding a titan with plans I found from the internet. Based upon how long it's taken me to get two toes done, I'm going to wind up spending more time and effort working on this than someone assembling one from FW. Amusingly enough, I ran the numbers based on how much I had done, and how much I had to go, and it would be cheaper, if you convert man-hours to current rate of pay, to buy one than spend my time scratchbuilding one, yet I'm still doing it. The FW one is better than anything I could crank out too. I'm well aware of the fact that my modelling skills couldn't scratch the surface of what they put out. I'm not doing it out of cheapness, implied or otherwise, no matter what you or Augustus might think. I'm doing it because of the fact that I enjoy engineering projects, and if you let it, Warhammer can be LEGO for adults. What I want to know is when did 40k stop being about the scratchbuilds and the modelling to you and become this Ivory Tower Club where you have to be a unrepentant consumer just to get in?
I've seen enough mangled kits to know that buying a model does not necessarily follow through to tabletop quality. Look at the galleries on here and see that much of the highest rated stuff are scratchbuilds. Certainly there are some awful scratchbuilds out there but some are real beauties, and that's the case with plastic kits bought from the shop too. Usually they look they look good and often are excellent, but plenty of people make them look like complete gak.
Buying a model is much easier than scratchbuilding something to equal quality, but again I see a whiff of indignation that one person has assembled an army while spending a fraction of the price that someone else has because they chose to buy from the shop.
No one has an exclusive right to field certain models in their army just because they had the money to drop £50 or whatever on a model. If someone can make an equivalent for £5 then there's no reason they can't field it. GW exacerbate this sense of indignation among some players because the coolest most powerful units are usually the most expensive and some players don't like other people having them cheaply. Access to the best units should not be the preserve of the wealthiest players, if you can replicate these units through time and hard work then power to you.
Howard A Treesong wrote:I've seen enough mangled kits to know that buying a model does not necessarily follow through to tabletop quality. Look at the galleries on here and see that much of the highest rated stuff are scratchbuilds. Certainly there are some awful scratchbuilds out there but some are real beauties, and that's the case with plastic kits bought from the shop too. Usually they look they look good and often are excellent, but plenty of people make them look like complete gak.
Buying a model is much easier than scratchbuilding something to equal quality, but again I see a whiff of indignation that one person has assembled an army while spending a fraction of the price that someone else has because they chose to buy from the shop.
No one has an exclusive right to field certain models in their army just because they had the money to drop £50 or whatever on a model. If someone can make an equivalent for £5 then there's no reason they can't field it. GW exacerbate this sense of indignation among some players because the coolest most powerful units are usually the most expensive and some players don't like other people having them cheaply. Access to the best units should not be the preserve of the wealthiest players, if you can replicate these units through time and hard work then power to you.
I agree completely. A few people in this thread seem to have it the other way around, and think the indignation is in the fact one guy has spent less money on his army than the other. That's just wrong.
Also please remember that very few people will have the innate skills to create a masterpiece army at first attempt.
What might look "naff" could be someone's very first builds.
Nor am I convinced that good paper modelling somehow requires less effort.
How long does it take to stick an AoBR Dread together?
Granted you don't have to paint a model that has been printed, but prime basecoat wash highlight for a basic table top finish is relatively straight forward.
There was a fantastic paper SM bike on Dakka earlier this year. Tell me honestly that ain't worth your time. But that guy may have had some cruder things on the table starting out.
The kid you turn your nose up at today may well be one whose bootlaces you ain't worthy of tomorrow.
one thing i´m asking myself is:
if i would play chess, would i be a better chess player if my pieces were bought expensivly?
hmmm think not. the act of buying high priced quality items doesn´t tell a thing about your quality as a player. since warhammer is a strategic game i think it is fully comparable to chess. maybe someone with these cardboard boxtanks has beaten you up so much that you don´t want to play with him anymore. but instead to admiting that your strategic knowhow lacks something you figuered out that your oponents wallet wasn´t equal enough to battle him some more...
well thats cool you didn´t want to put him to shame anymore, what a nice charcter you have...
Gather round you lot, Caesar will now explain it to you.
The appeasement coddling effeminate babble in defense of cheap paper copies has gone far enough.
(1) If you want to play a game you need the right gear.
(2) Casting 'requiring the right gear' as prejudice, exclusion or discrimination is just wrong. Showing up with the wrong gear and demanding equal treatment is actually grossly belligerent, and championing this is ethically flawed.
(3) Making paper copies of trademark items borders IP infringement.
Chibi Bodge-Battle wrote:For my part I enjoy the creative hobbyside. As far as I am aware there are no restrictions against that on Dakka. Yet some of the posts here would seem to indicate otherwise.
Blanketing 'the creative side' as defending paper copies is a gross overstatement. The 'creatvie side' isn't entirely constituted by paper modelers. It's just another poorly conceived cheap way of getting copied play pieces and deserves the same treatment as recast theft, perhaps more, because it involves reproducing an entire model. Unless you think theft is creative, which I genuinely doubt.
Chibi Bodge-Battle wrote:Sorry but I am not claiming the high ground...
Of course not, because of (3).
Chibi Bodge-Battle wrote:Going back to the OP and paper models, GW used to provide such things if I am not mistaken. Am sure I have seen some in the WD special editions.
You are mistaken, GW has never provided paper patterns for people to copy kits they have made. The Deoderant Tank was a completely different concept, was NOT a copy of an existing kit, and was not a paper model. (and is ancient history at about 20 years old).
Chibi Bodge-Battle wrote:The kid you turn your nose up at today may well be one whose bootlaces you ain't worthy of tomorrow.
Haven't met one yet. If they are building paper tank copies because they can't afford it, and are happy with that, I'm not to worried. Being tolerated/celebrated etc. for that kind of a standard will never lead to excellence.
ender502 wrote:Really? Really!?
Jesus this is what's wrong with Dakka..and the hobby.
...
Just play the game. Just model. Just paint. Leave your pretensions behind..they just hinder you from enjoying this "game."
ender502
Leave my pretensions behind along with my standards and ethics too? No thank you.
ender502 wrote:As long as the "modeling" doesn't create an in-game advantage..who cares?
The people who make the models, the people who own the trademarks and copyrights, the REAL creative lovers of the hobby who spent more hours painting than they ever will playing, the store owners who provide free space to play in, need I go on?
ender502 wrote:Are your delicate sensibilities going to be so offended..nay!...mortally wounded by a POS paper tank that you can't play the person?
Sounds more like the paper builder has hit you where it hurts... they didn't have to pay gobs of money or put in crazy effort... their "effort" makes your investment of time and money seem ridiculous.
Yes, and it's not my delicate sensibilities as much as my ethics, and my desire to have a high standard in the community. Their 'effort' compared to my investment of time and money makes them little amateur belligerent thieves. You can't be in the classic car club with a pinto, no matter how much 'effort' you put into applying racing brand stickers on it.
Howard A Treesong wrote:No one has an exclusive right to field certain models in their army just because they had the money to drop £50 or whatever on a model. If someone can make an equivalent for £5 then there's no reason they can't field it.
Oh really? How about integrity? Or in the case of outright paper copies of existing models how about trademark and copyright law.
Phototoxin wrote:Also to whover said about not having as much money to go and play card games {some broken image link} costs more than a whirlwind. And you'd probably need 4.
Lets stick to the ethical issue and the spirit and integrity of the game with a fresh perspective. If you were a card gamer and I showed up (to your tourney event house etc) with a deck of 3x5 index cards with the names and rules of real cards (for whatever game) written on them in pencil with images I drew myself, and expected to play like everyone else, what would you think of that? See the real point here?
Viktor von Domm wrote:..the act of buying high priced quality items doesn´t tell a thing about your quality as a player...
True, but it shows one could earn at least the value of an army, which says something about character, and it shows one spent the time to paint the army and build it, which says something about perseverance, and with no copies of anything it proves one is not a thief.
chromedog wrote:Perspective is everything - it's hard to see the big picture up there on the horse.
..or down their in the squalor with the ragamuffins?
Augustus wrote:Yes, and it's not my delicate sensibilities as much as my ethics, and my desire to have a high standard in the community.
Considering you reacted with the same horror in the paper terrain thread, and explicitly stated you didn't care about the IP defenders/pretend internet lawyers claims, I find this hard to believe.
everybody else is doing it so why can´t we!
and if we scratchbuilt a whole army we do it to have fun doing it, playing it not doing it for material profit...
not everyone messures art by money spent...
Automatically Appended Next Post: @ AlexHolker, that was a good one^^
I tend to agree with OP, but really, in a casual PUG you're free to play or not play whomever you want on whatever criteria you choose.
Everyone's got their own aesthetic preferences and pet peeves. I'm embarassed to say I've played a lot of bare metal and plastic (and typically apologize to my opponents for such); but on the other hand I dislike playing against proxies. Especially proxies of large or powerful models such as special characters or Monoliths.
But someone else may - equally justifiably - object to dishing out ridiculous sums for overpriced "official" models. Is one of us right and the other wrong?
A few points I might offer though:
* I agree with OP that effort goes a long way. And (at least in a proxy that looks like drek) it goes a lot farther than, say cleverness.
* When dealing with kids, patience is mandatory. This applies to their models as much as it does to their play style.
* that said, there IS a place for encouraging young players to sharpen their modelling skills and generally "raise the bar" of their play and hobby. Probably the best way to do this is by example.
Augustus wrote:(1) If you want to play a game you need the right gear.
Depends on your point of view, while GW demand you only use GW models in their shops, in the real world you can use what you like. And many gamers do, if you look anywhere outside a Games Workshop.
(2) Casting 'requiring the right gear' as prejudice, exclusion or discrimination is just wrong. Showing up with the wrong gear and demanding equal treatment is actually grossly belligerent, and championing this is ethically flawed.
'Ethically flawed'? Scratchbuilding is as old as the hobby, there are vehicles that GW don't supply, there has also been a long tradition of making stuff for armies, especially ork armies. Beforen GW made a Stompa everyone had to make them out of bits and pieces, now I suppose if you don't field one of the many Stompa clones that GW produces you are an immoral cheapskate.
(3) Making paper copies of trademark items borders IP infringement.
Who gives a damn especially outside of a Games Workshop? Strewth that is a desperate argument. Is it really IP infringement if you make something yourself at home? You aren't selling copise. You can't imply parallels with a person who photocopies books and recasts miniatures for eBay with people that put a lot of effort into producing scratchbuilds for their own use no matter how closely they resemble production kits
Blanketing 'the creative side' as defending paper copies is a gross overstatement. The 'creatvie side' isn't entirely constituted by paper modelers. It's just another poorly conceived cheap way of getting copied play pieces and deserves the same treatment as recast theft, perhaps more, because it involves reproducing an entire model. Unless you think theft is creative, which I genuinely doubt.
Making a paper model = recasting. Okay. Seems like a lot of effort to rip a company off and I doubt many others think the two are comparable. Do you think green stuffing a space marine is also infringing IP or is equivalent to recasting? Because some people convert and sculpt so heavily they use almost nothing of an actual model.
Leave my pretensions behind along with my standards and ethics too? No thank you.
Nonsense, many scratch builds are the equal of production kits. Do you really think everyone who fields a Titan has £300 to drop on one? Of course not. As for preaching ethics, ridiculous. People are making home made copies of kits to use in games with their mates, comparisons with criminal activity are just ridiculous. Scratchbuilding a proxy is little different in real terms to buying stuff from another manufacturer. I think you wasted any good argument the moment you started talking about 'IP'.
Howard A Treesong wrote:No one has an exclusive right to field certain models in their army just because they had the money to drop £50 or whatever on a model. If someone can make an equivalent for £5 then there's no reason they can't field it.
Oh really? How about integrity? Or in the case of outright paper copies of existing models how about trademark and copyright law.
Are you against people using cheaper manufacturers to build up their armies of non-GW models?
See, outside of a Games Workshop people can do what they like. They can take GW rules and they can use any figures they like with it. They can make models however they like and buy from any manufacturer and have fun. Championing the power of Games Workshop to dictate what you do with the hobby in your own time is just madness. When I was younger and not a part of the 'wider community' I thought nothing of mixing and matching figures. I didn't know it was even considered an issue. I used all sorts of stuff in games of Space Hulk to represent the marines, I played warhammer with an Empire army made up of historicals raided from my dad's cupboard. I kitbashed tanks kits and more to make vehicles and weapons that would be used to play 40K. I didn't know GW purists existed, as far as I was concerned anyone in power armour could be a Space Marine and I thought that a vehicle could be made any way you wanted.
..or down their in the squalor with the ragamuffins?
Worst kind of elitist claptrap. If you can't afford to buy models out the shop you should be allowed to field anything like them.
If we really need to talk about what is ruining the hobby it's when GW started telling people how to think. I don't know when we got to the situation where you have to buy GW models to play GW games even in your own house for fear of people branding you an IP thief and cheapsake for scratchbuilding stuff or buying non-GW products. When the feth did things become so elitist and dedicated to serving the mighty Workshop even in your own living room? Buy a rulebook. Get some models. Kitbash some stuff. Have fun. That's how it was 20 years ago. The fact we even talk about infringing IP in our bedrooms for whittling plastic card makes me puke.
First off let me preface this by saying that these topics are started as friendly conversations within a mature community of gamers, there is no right or wrong answer just a matter of opinion.
When it comes to paper models let me be more clear as to what I was referencing;
A group of gamers (not newbies people whove been in it for several years) took it upon themelves to scribble outlines of rhinos land raiders etc on notebook paper, tape them up and field them as playable models. I have heard from alot of my friends across the country and across the pond that these paper tanks are a growing trend in their communities as well, especially ones printed off the internet.
This thread was made to spark discussions of what fellow community member thought, not for anyone (myself included) to look down on there high horse on issues of money, skill, etc. That was never an issue nor will it ever be one with the people I like to game with, for those who want to make that an issue, continue to read way far into things that have no relevance to the thread or the game as a whole.
If it has ever been an issue of money, our gaming community has always been more than generous with old models, charity etc, if its an issue of skill our better modellers and painters are always happy to give tips and lend a helping hand, this is what this game and community as a whole is based upon in my opinion.
I am not saying there is a right or wrong answer to this I just personally like the prospect of gaming with an opponent who has put some time and effort into there armies, as I am sure many of you would agree. Scratch builds have always been an important part of the hobby and I love them, but at what point is it considered something different?
If you want to keep slamming the people on here for voicing opinions on an issue we think is real, than by all means continue with your trolling but agree or disagree this thread is about discussion not negativity.
Keep your insults and negative comments to yourselves, lets discuss valid arguments and opinions of why this is right or wrong.
I think we can see from the comments here there is a fine line for a lot of people as to what's acceptable and what isn't as a proxy. Personally I'm more inclined to agree with the OP while I have nothing against proxy's paper or otherwise I do feel that if some one dropped a load of paper on the table I probably wouldn't get as much enjoyment out of the game and might be more inclined to not play them. But any way as has already been stated it's always your choice weather to play or not it's not rude to say no for what ever reason I remember a game I had in my local store against a guy I hadn't met before his army was half painted and he had a proxy for Ghazghkull Thraka both of which I didn't mind as he had obviously spent time and effort on the rest of his army and would get the rest finished. This aside I would never play the guy again as it was the most tedious and long winded game you could imagine due to his play stile I guess the enjoyment of the game is the more important thing in the end.
Gather round you lot, Caesar will now explain it to you.
The appeasement coddling effeminate babble in defense of cheap paper copies has gone far enough.
(1) If you want to play a game you need the right gear.
(2) Casting 'requiring the right gear' as prejudice, exclusion or discrimination is just wrong. Showing up with the wrong gear and demanding equal treatment is actually grossly belligerent, and championing this is ethically flawed.
Sure. I own a lathe. I can make a functional baseball bat that conforms to all specifications of the sport. Try harder.
Augustus wrote:
(3) Making paper copies of trademark items borders IP infringement.
Jesus, can we please get away from this IP infringement fad? The urge to be IP-friendly has gotten more silly than the urge to be PC. It hurts. GW does not need you carrying a torch for them. They have more than enough lawyers to take care of themselves. But do you want to talk IP infringement? GW infringes Geiger (and Heinlein, and plenty of others) as much as, if not more than, the paper rhinos do the real thing. At least people aren't making money off of the rhinos. The closest thing you can get to as far as infringement is saying that they're the same dimensions, which is a non-issue, because if they weren't the same dimensions, then you'd just as soon deride them for being poor quality substitutions inappropriate for the game.
Augustus wrote:
Chibi Bodge-Battle wrote:The kid you turn your nose up at today may well be one whose bootlaces you ain't worthy of tomorrow.
Haven't met one yet. If they are building paper tank copies because they can't afford it, and are happy with that, I'm not to worried. Being tolerated/celebrated etc. for that kind of a standard will never lead to excellence.
Says you. Some amazing things people have replicated from simple materials, be they plasticard, paper, metal, GS, have been stunning. Sometimes better than the originals. At any rate, it's far beyond anything I'm capable of, which is worthy of my praise. You just come of sounding bitter and perhaps even a little envious of their talent.
Augustus wrote:
ender502 wrote:As long as the "modeling" doesn't create an in-game advantage..who cares?
The people who make the models, the people who own the trademarks and copyrights, the REAL creative lovers of the hobby who spent more hours painting than they ever will playing, the store owners who provide free space to play in, need I go on?
And yet, you haven't considered the number of hours taking the three-dimensional object that you want to create, flattening it and dissecting it in your mind, visualizing where support goes (because paper doesn't just support itself), sketching the design, cutting it out, and then texturing or even painting that. Like it or not, they are creating. Sure, maybe they're imitating the GW stuff, but that's how you learn. Just ask a Rembrandt, Picasso, or Leonardo da Vinci. Hell, even your beloved Romans copying Greek sculpture. I shudder to think of the dark ages this IP craze will force the Arts into.
Augustus wrote:
ender502 wrote:Are your delicate sensibilities going to be so offended..nay!...mortally wounded by a POS paper tank that you can't play the person?
Sounds more like the paper builder has hit you where it hurts... they didn't have to pay gobs of money or put in crazy effort... their "effort" makes your investment of time and money seem ridiculous.
Yes, and it's not my delicate sensibilities as much as my ethics, and my desire to have a high standard in the community. Their 'effort' compared to my investment of time and money makes them little amateur belligerent thieves. You can't be in the classic car club with a pinto, no matter how much 'effort' you put into applying racing brand stickers on it.
Surprisingly enough, not many people want Toy Soldiers to be their classic car club. Surprisingly enough, I dislike gated communities and people who bitch because I get a fence put in against the "Community charter".
Augustus wrote:
Howard A Treesong wrote:No one has an exclusive right to field certain models in their army just because they had the money to drop £50 or whatever on a model. If someone can make an equivalent for £5 then there's no reason they can't field it.
Oh really? How about integrity? Or in the case of outright paper copies of existing models how about trademark and copyright law.
Same.
Augustus wrote:
Phototoxin wrote:Also to whover said about not having as much money to go and play card games {some broken image link} costs more than a whirlwind. And you'd probably need 4.
Lets stick to the ethical issue and the spirit and integrity of the game with a fresh perspective. If you were a card gamer and I showed up (to your tourney event house etc) with a deck of 3x5 index cards with the names and rules of real cards (for whatever game) written on them in pencil with images I drew myself, and expected to play like everyone else, what would you think of that? See the real point here?
Oh, I get it! Actually, no, I'm just kidding, I don't see your point. My friends and I used to actually playtest cards when we played that god-awful MTG game. Since we just played in a friendly environment, half the fun WAS coming up with whatever you could, removing artificial limitations such as availability and whatnot. Allowed for some completely silly combination that took the game in very strange ways.
Augustus wrote:
Viktor von Domm wrote:..the act of buying high priced quality items doesn´t tell a thing about your quality as a player...
True, but it shows one could earn at least the value of an army, which says something about character, and it shows one spent the time to paint the army and build it, which says something about perseverance, and with no copies of anything it proves one is not a thief.
You keep using the word thief, and yet I think what you're looking for is "Copyright Infringer." Ironically, the chances of anyone who is playing with nothing but GW (or FW) stuff being a thief becomes that much more, because it's possible that they stole those tanks/toy soldiers/dice/whatever from someone else. That thread comes up in this very forum about once a month.
In conclusion:
- Get it? It's a copyright troll! Okay, so really more of a copyright ogre, but well, it was the best thing I could find in a 10 second google search. Kind of appropriate when you think about it.
You know, I haven't run across this phenomenon at any of the stores I've played at, and to the extreme that the OP describes I think it would be a detriment to fun gaming. I would probably still play them though, as I have no qualms with letting someone use scratch built stuff in their army, and I don't feel like it is my place to judge the quality of someone else's work (what may be one gamer's masterpiece may be another's garbage).
Chibi Bodge-Battle wrote:Unfortunately I can't help you. Not qualified.
Clearly, not qualified. How are those paper games going?
The thread isn't called "scratch built tanks'
It's called 'Paper tanks...'
Here's a gallery image of his:
Here's one of mine:
sworth9411 wrote:"A group of gamers (not newbies people whove been in it for several years) took it upon themelves to scribble outlines of rhinos land raiders etc on notebook paper, tape them up and field them as playable models."
So not new players, and with taped up paper copies?
by the OPs own admission,
Not talking about scratch built models
Not talking about meticulous constructed conversions
Not talking about kids
Not talking about new players
Talking about Land Raiders and Rhinos, NOT unavailable Model proxies, but copies
sworth9411 wrote:"what I am seeing is a growing trend of gamers making out of paper, foam board or similar glueing haphazardly and passing it off as a tank.... "
In a recent 'paid' event, I saw an ALL paper defiler and 2 ALL paper rhinos, in a Chaos army. That player should have been disqualified. So I noticed this trend too.
If I ran a store, and you brought paper versions of models I sold, I would ask you not to use them in my store. If you came back with them I would ask you to leave!
If you want to make paper, whatevers, and play at home, who cares. Just remember from the OP, we are talking about a growing trend of paper copies from 'experienced players' now apparently. Quit trying to prop up poor arguments with creativity babble we are talking about paper copies.
WOW and there i thougt its cool to build a titan out of plastic card... even my friends at the gaming club agree and urge me to get it done faster as it looks cool (so they say)...
Well im quite happy about scratchbuild stuff in our club. And we never had trouble with proxys.. even bottles for drop pods are fine if someone is testing a list.
Only if someone is never going to replace the bottles we will start to mock him/her a little. But this actually never happened.
lulz. You guys care way too much about your game of army men. I have all the rhinos I need. I know others aren't necessarily as well off as I.
I often volunteer cardboard squares to my friends if they need them. A leman russ, rhino and Chimera are all about the same size, so I just keep a bunch of them in my bag when I play.
Also, can I have a linky for some of these things? I'd love to use up some printer paper on something half useful
Samus_aran115 wrote:lulz. You guys care way too much about your game of army men. I have all the rhinos I need. I know others aren't necessarily as well off as I.
I often volunteer cardboard squares to my friends if they need them. A leman russ, rhino and Chimera are all about the same size, so I just keep a bunch of them in my bag when I play.
Also, can I have a linky for some of these things? I'd love to use up some printer paper on something half useful
I agree, unless your basically mass producing paper models and selling them for a profit? There's no problem with GW IP or infringement. Hell, some of their rulebooks encourage you to build those models, don't they? More importantly, I'm not sure what GW has copyrighted, but I doubt British IP laws are so stringent that you can't even have something set in that universe. As far as I'm concerned, anything scratch built is not taking something out of the universe GW has created, it's adding too it.
In a real world sense, like I said earlier, it all depends on the amount of effort put into making it. There's that Ork minelayer made out of a soda bottle in the Apoc rulebook, would I play against that? Hell yeah. Would I play against a couple pieces of cardboard taped together with the words 'Leman Russ' written on it? Well...even then it's debatable.
I mean, if it's some kid whose just get started, I'd let him get away with it. Maybe he wants to learn the rules for models, he doesn't have yet or something...I don't know. But if I play game after game after game with him, and he obviously doesn't care about making his models look better...then I'll get annoyed.
tl;dr: It's all subjective. You can't have a blanket policy that remains fair.
Samus_aran115 wrote:lulz. You guys care way too much about your game of army men. I have all the rhinos I need. I know others aren't necessarily as well off as I.
I often volunteer cardboard squares to my friends if they need them. A leman russ, rhino and Chimera are all about the same size, so I just keep a bunch of them in my bag when I play.
Also, can I have a linky for some of these things? I'd love to use up some printer paper on something half useful
God damn you can be condescending sometimes Samus.
Samus_aran115 wrote:lulz. You guys care way too much about your game of army men. I have all the rhinos I need. I know others aren't necessarily as well off as I.
I often volunteer cardboard squares to my friends if they need them. A leman russ, rhino and Chimera are all about the same size, so I just keep a bunch of them in my bag when I play.
Also, can I have a linky for some of these things? I'd love to use up some printer paper on something half useful
God damn you can be condescending sometimes Samus.
gazelle wrote:Yes, White Dwarf used to have articles about how to build Ork vehicles from cereal boxes. I used their "Blitzwagon" template to build the orignal style battlewagons from cardboard because my FLGS couldn't get them in.
I loved those
[b]In the more recent past, I have become a proficient cardstock modeller. Building and painting the GW kit is easier for me than rendering the model templates with color and texture in Photoshop. I save that for my terrain, most of which is commercially avilable and only needs a little alteration to 40K-ify.
I don't Have a problem with ones that the efort was made on.
As for a Turnement, It would be like my Philosophy on Painted Armies: It at least had better be primed.
As for Campains: If you army showed up with 6 Papper Rhinos, next week I want to see 1 Real one and 5 Paper, the next 2 Real and 4 Paper, just like Armies, I want to see 1 Squad a Week Painted.
Samus_aran115 wrote:lulz. You guys care way too much about your game of army men. I have all the rhinos I need. I know others aren't necessarily as well off as I.
I often volunteer cardboard squares to my friends if they need them. A leman russ, rhino and Chimera are all about the same size, so I just keep a bunch of them in my bag when I play.
Also, can I have a linky for some of these things? I'd love to use up some printer paper on something half useful
Samus_aran115 wrote:lulz. You guys care way too much about your game of army men. I have all the rhinos I need. I know others aren't necessarily as well off as I.
I often volunteer cardboard squares to my friends if they need them. A leman russ, rhino and Chimera are all about the same size, so I just keep a bunch of them in my bag when I play.
Also, can I have a linky for some of these things? I'd love to use up some printer paper on something half useful
God damn you can be condescending sometimes Samus.
What do you mean?
I'm condescending because I'm a nice guy and offer to give my opponent proxies to use? I don't understand :3
Ill agree with OP somewhat. 40K is a miniatures game, not a board and counter euro board game. If you want to play with a cheapo army in your own house or with your own friends then fine. However, showing up at a LGS or the like with an army that looks like a kindergarten craft project is just dumb.
Now, if someone slapped together a proxy for something just for a game or two to test it out with their army before they invested in a mini (esp the larger more expensive ones) then thats fine by me.
See now thats in a different class...those look pretty nice. I wouldnt fault someone who was financially challenged to use something like that. Same for someone who doesnt have the time/skills for building & painting an army. Those printed out and mounted on some heavy cardboard wouldnt be too bad at all.
It might look a bit silly against a regular minis army, but not terrible. Now if all the players in a group were using those it would be kinda cool. Hell, I may think about print up a couple armys for my wife, our older son, and I to use at home. One of the biggest things keeping me from doing a 40k army is the fact that I would have to build and paint 2 armys. The nearest players to me are an hour or more away, and although my wife is more than willing to play she isnt interested in the hobby end, leaving me on the hook for all of it.
EDIT: I was referring to the tyranids on that page. Im very tempted to do a couple armys like they did those.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Iron Angel wrote:
Mad4Minis wrote:board and counter euro board game
If i may.. what the hell is a euro board game?
Agricola, Puerto Rico, etc and other games styled like those. That style of game was started in Europe, and are called Euro games.
Sworth If my posts have been interpreted as trolling then I am sorry
But I owe GW no loyalty and as long as I legally own copies of the rules then it is down to me what I use. If I proxy matchsticks and chuddy ain't no bodies' business but my own. Might never get a game that way but you get the gist. If other people only accept 'eavy metal minis fresh from Notts that's their perogative and I ain't ever gonna say otherwise.
But If someone comes along and starts dictating saying I can't play the game cos I don't have the rhino then I am going to be aggrieved.
I volunteer my own time, spend my own money and use my own materials so some kids can play wargames. Some of these kids are really lucky and spend a decent wadge of tin on plastic. Good luck to them. They are not all finished to the highest standards but they are just setting out. Am I supposed to tell them to come back when thay are GD standard? Obviously some people think so but they can go gakk themselves if they think I am not going to let them game with their models.
We have kids who want to collect but their parents won't let them because they can't afford it. Again if certain people think I am going to reject them they can shove their Forgeworld resin Titans up their Titarses. Sorry but that has touched a raw nerve. I am not having a go at your OP which contains some valid grievances and tbh it is clearly taking the pee to persist with biro drawnings on bogrolls and out of line.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Hail Caeser very clever selecting a part finished piece of terrain that hasn't been used in that state and selecting a part of a thread and taking out of context And I said I wasn't qualified to assist you with your complex never said owt about your amazing sculpt
Like I said before give some people time to produce the goods Show your first minis if you are such a genius.
Mad4Minis wrote:
Agricola, Puerto Rico, etc and other games styled like those. That style of game was started in Europe, and are called Euro games.
Well i have never heard of those... maybe its because Europe is actually a bunch of different countries with sometimes different tastes (which is actually pretty cool, thanks GB for wargaming , Sharpe and Hornblower...)
No Worries, theres been a lot of negative undertones from several of the postings (mine included). Obviously there is a super fine line which many do not agree on, which is one of the main reasons why I thought it as relevant posting for discussion.
As said many times before it is ultimatley up to your opponent, and although I agree with what your saying to a degree, I think that at some point alot of the more interesting part of the hobby get lost by allowing individuals to do things such as this...(again I could be on either side of the fence for this but feel stronger about this side haha)
This is by no means a blanket statement even a bit even at all, but I do feel a valid argument for the future of this game.
On another note I do disagree with you saying you owe GW no loyalty, as without them pushing new rules, models, etc we would have none of this wonderful rich universe so many of us take for granted.....just my 2 cents and take it as you will....
Automatically Appended Next Post: and on a side note my first minis were horrendous.....for years even :lol:
Mad4Minis wrote:
Agricola, Puerto Rico, etc and other games styled like those. That style of game was started in Europe, and are called Euro games.
Well i have never heard of those... maybe its because Europe is actually a bunch of different countries with sometimes different tastes (which is actually pretty cool, thanks GB for wargaming , Sharpe and Hornblower...)
They are very popular games world wide. Not my thing, as Im a mini gamer and not so much of a board gamer.
They are reffered to as Euros ( by the board gaming community) because they were invented somewhere in Europe and gained popularity there before spreading to the rest of the world. Just as games originating in America (USA) are referred to as ameri-trash...especially by those who prefer the Euro style.
Now, to save some of my mini gamer cred...the only reason I know this is I have been a member of boardgamegeek.com for a while and have learned a bit about the board game community merely by accident. On the chance you havent heard of boardgamgeek before its worth a look...they have a quite comprehensive list of games, board, mini, rpg, etc. I find it a good place to check out games Ive never heard of before.
No. I doubt that they were horrible to you at the time. Did anyone refuse you a game with those minis?
And for the record, I have never used paper other than to draw on.* Even the image used to illustrate what a crap modeller I am, was a WIP in plastic not paper as implied. I grovel for forgiveness in my abject failure as a model maker.
One of the reasons I have never used paper is because of the incredible amount of work and patience required to build a model with them. Hats off to the guys that build them. *and wipe my arse on the works of Virgil
Well, is that not really all it is at the end of the day? Overgrown kids playing with their toy soldiers? I think it would help out everyone if we all just took a deep breath, considered the world, with all of it's troubles, and asked ourselves, "Does it really matter if someone is making army men out of cardstock somewhere?"
Well, is that not really all it is at the end of the day? Overgrown kids playing with their toy soldiers? I think it would help out everyone if we all just took a deep breath, considered the world, with all of it's troubles, and asked ourselves, "Does it really matter if someone is making army men out of cardstock somewhere?"
Yeah I feel like that's okay...
But then I look at my army men that I spent hours working on to make look good, and paid hundreds of dollars for.
EDIT- I enjoy good cardstock builds, it's he pictures of models printed out and square tanks without detail or paint that bother me, Nothing wrong with the awesome template ones.
I would simply refuse to play an someone who was using half assed proxys or paper tanks.
I dont spend hours working to pay for my army then more time painting it ALL and then even more time to make decent terrain just so some douche can put some toilet rolls on the table.
Im sorry if that seems harsh but once you take the models out of the game you might aswell go play a video game.
I dont mind proper scarth built stuff ie not made outta paper at all howeve.r
I also paint my miniatures to a very high standard because I enjoy the craft and artistry and appreciate the same from other players.
I also appreciate people who play just to play a fun game with friends. Gaming isn't just the hobby, it's also a fun and social experience. Limiting yourself to one group of players for arbitrary reasons beyond fun and sportsmanship is, well, just limiting in a hobby/pastime that's already so limited.
The key is to not take it so personally when there is someone who just wants to play the game, as opposed to just the hobby.
@Augustus- I'm seeing your side of the argument less and less as this discussion progresses. As for your research into Chibi's abilities, here's a few other images from him (not in the gallery, in threads started):
Every modeller has to start somewhere, and clearly his artistic abilities are high.
One more example... Stump, my favorite orky converter on this site. Using for-sale signs for plasticard. Here are some WIPs of his second scratch-build:
And finished, along with one of his incredible later creations:
Your approach would have discouraged him from getting started, and we would not have the absolute gem of a deff dread shown above!
Gotta give people a chance, and scratch-building is an integral part of the hobby for many people. If it isn't for you, that's fine, but don't force that view on others... you can ignore the "deodorant tank" as much as you want, but this hobby hasn't always been about who can buy hundreds of dollars of forge world vehicles and the like (and Still isn't!). If someone is skilled or motivated enough to try scratch-building to a high level, more power to them!!! And as I said, everyone has to start somewhere.... your approach discourages them from even beginning!
I think the only issue with using paper tanks at an LGS or a Games Workshop store is that you are using their facilities to play a game they sell while not contributing to the hobby. I understand that some people have money-related reasons and its up to the store owner to decide whether or not to let them play. A 12 year-old starting out on a budget of $10/week will be given very different consideration then someone who is simply taking advantage.
GW deserves no sympathy and their employees are simply following a business model. I never game in their stores because you're never anything but a customer there (wallet on legs). Its the LGS owners who put in time and effort into creating a community who need to be considered. I try and buy something every time I come to a new store or come back to an old one after an absence. I figure its the least I can do for all the time I spend gaming in there.
As far as the "I put in effort and you didn't" argument, I think that if it ruins the game for you then that is a legit reason to be angry. Everyone is different and the community is usually big enough to accomodate everyone. Just make sure that you don't ruin the other person's fun by being a dick. Live and let game.
I am fine with people builting their own stuff, but I have also seen folks who try to pass a pepsi can as a drop pod. I just can't get on the wagon with something like that.
As a side note, I started WFB when I was 11 and worked a paper route for a year before I could by the starter set for myself. I was a recent immigrant so even if my parents wanted to help they really couldn't. I don't know if its fair to say that anyone who wants it badly enough can do it though. It really is a hard call to make.
I think that's why the tensions run high on this issue- people are basically arguing about different things.
Sides "against"- Pepsi cans are not drop pods.
Side "for"- Incredible "For Sale sign" conversion tank (see above) is a legitimate scratch-build and should be accepted by everyone
I think we start to get our wires crossed and when you say "Don't use a pepsi can for a drop pod" I hear "That incredible scratch-build is illegitimate".
In the end, most of us probably agree more than it seems here. Sometimes the "in theory" part of threads like this tends to polarize people, when in the end I've noticed that most people in person have the same standards.
And no, I wouldn't allow a pepsi drop pod... although mountain dew is a bit closer to the mark (that's a joke, folks!)
That actually looks quite nice, and I'd have nothing against it. It's when the guy I'm playing against finishes his Coke, and then drops it down on a table declaring it to be a drop pod. I think we can all agree on this kind of thing.
Soda can drop pod, and other things which are just crap: not allowable unless severe extenuating circumstances.
Scratch builds: BRING IT ON!
Erhm, agnosto, while I applaud the idea (if it's yours!) I think it needs a some bits and fleshing out so it's not 2-D. But it certainly looks hilarious Defiler-hermit crab...
I wish I could take credit for something like that; sadly, no, I just found it on the interwebz.
I like the defiler hermit-crab idea. I'll bring it up tonight with my chaos playing friend. We always joke that his defilers only stay on the field a turn or two anyway, it'd be better to have something lighter and without fiddly bitz.
It's important to me that the battlefield looks good. I don't consider a high quality scratchbuild to be a 'proxy', it represents a vehicle as effectively as the proper kit. In my mind a 'proxy' is putting a plastic bottle or square of paper on the table and that's not cool, you're not putting minatures on the table, that's litter. But I don't think that's the troubling comparison being drawn here. People arguing for paper models are not arguing for plastic bottles.
The paper plans are very high quality. With effort they can look as good as the real thing, so good we have been told that they infringe IP making them a form of theft. So what is the argument here, that paper models are inherently rubbish or that they are too good? It has to be accepted that like all things the end result is heavily dependent upon the effort put in and some scratchbuilds are very good indeed.
If someone puts a load of rubbish on the table then that will bother me because I want a game that looks good. My dispute is with people who claim that either all scratchbuilds are poor quality, which clearly isn't true, or that high quality scratch builds are rip-offs of the real thing and shouldn't be used for that reason alone.
If a model looks good put it on the table, if it looks like no effort has been made then keep it off. It doesn't matter if the models are bought RRP from a Games Workshop, bought from another company or made from card. That's not the prerequisite for a good game in my book. A well made and painted scratchbuild of a Rhino is worth more on the field of battle than an unpainted kit bought from GW.
Like I said earlier I have no problem with well put together scratch built cardstock models. I currently have 2 GW drops, one cardstock/foam-core and 9 in the works out of plastic cookie containers.
For my house I have no problems using them all, but if I want to my LFGS I would be embarrassed to take the “Cookie Pods” until I am finished with them.
Maybe this is the wrong place for part of this, As far GW employees go I do not have a problem with them look at us as walking wallets, its their job. However I have a Furry Con I go to that sees all of us as walking wallets with Ears and Tails and they treat us all great.
Great point Treesong . I think that can be summed up as the "rule of cool". And again, I bet 99% people actually agree with what you're saying- if it's rubbish, nobody wants to play against it, but if effort has been put in and it looks good, it's no problem (or even better).
I think the supporting local stores / GW IP are separate issues that muddy the water a bit, and shouldn't be involved in a discussion that is basically "what is fit for the tabletop?"
I would let you play it, as long as sooner or later a real Land Raider replaces it. If it was a pick up game? Sure, why not. I'm not sure if I'd play you gain, but I'll play you this one time. If it was a pre-planned game? Then I'd kinda be a little pissed. I mean c'mon...can't you do better than a video game box with a land raider drawn on? Or if you can't, make a list that doesn't have one?
No, because I want to play a cool looking game...I mean if we planned this game to be you trying out a new unit before you drop the cash on them? Sure. Why not? But if this was a pre-planned friendly game or a pick up game? I mean c'mon...can you not write a list that doesn't have this unit? If you need the tank to make it to x point level, then maybe we should play at y point level instead?
I was just having a larf. It's not mine and I, personally, never field anything I don't have a model for. Would I play against someone who has a box-landraider? Yes. Why? Because it's a game and I have enough of an imagination to incorporate what the box represents.
So which is the better drop pod, Coke or Pespsi?
And is there a points upgrade for Pepsi Max?
Powerclaw
That is excellent mate and highly commendable.
You can rightly be proud of that. The problem is that there are some people trying to get a more affordable/creative way into the hobby who are genuine hobbyists being tarred with the same brush as a guy with a bogroll killakan ie just a toilet roll holder
Thinks bogroll KillaKans see the toilet roll holder could be the start of an interesting project.
And seriously a drinks can proxy is only acceptable to me as a stop gap.
If some one said they just wanted to try out the tactics before investing time or money then that to me is cool.
re GW stores. That again is a different matter,
There is no way I would take anything that would embarrass the staff or myself to their tables.
More than anything else is a matter of courtesy.
But who would refuse Stump's stuff? Would be an honour to have that on one's table.
^^ That is actually hilarious. Good to see the Ultrasmurfs getting what they deserve.
But yes, Agnosto. I know you're having a laugh, and like I said, if you're proxying the Carboardius Boxius pattern Land Raider in a pick up game I wouldn't mind. If you're playing it as a proxy to see how you like a unit before you buy it...once again. No problem. Hell, I'd probably laugh and enjoy the game more with the cardboard land raider.
My issue is when someone is fielding that cardboard box as a Land Raider for months on end, and obviously has no intention of buying the real model. THEN I get annoyed. As was said earlier...it's like if someone came up at a card game with a deck of index cards that had hand drawn pictures of whatever they're supposed to be instead of real cards. Wouldn't you be kinda annoyed if they kept using that deck with no intention of getting the REAL cards?
ChrisWWII wrote:
it's like if someone came up at a card game with a deck of index cards that had hand drawn pictures of whatever they're supposed to be instead of real cards. Wouldn't you be kinda annoyed if they kept using that deck with no intention of getting the REAL cards?
Actually did that back in my MtG days because my Black Lotus and Moxes were worth so much that I never took them out of the plastic but I always had them available if people wanted to verify they existed. We would also make up cards; sometimes funny, sometimes competitive but were always up front about what they were etc.... it eventually led to me making my own card game that I had planned on publishing eventually but never did.
God, I'm old; I'm reminiscing about games past for cripe's sake.
I like it. It shows someone has a sense of humor and can take themselves loosely enough for it to be a good game. Plus he bothered to draw in all that detail. Probably spend a good amount of time sketching all that in. I give it a 6 out of 10. Bonus points for the name.
And besides, it would be an accomplishment in itself to have the dog move appropriately (by the game rules) when it's his/her owner's turn and remain motionless when it's the opponents
Alastergrimm wrote:I am fine with people builting their own stuff, but I have also seen folks who try to pass a pepsi can as a drop pod. I just can't get on the wagon with something like that.
Agreed, that's just stupid. Went to the paperhammer link above in Iron Angels post, and what is that printed out on paper Tyranids "army" then stuck on bases. No no and no some more, that's taking the idea too far. I'm all for encouraging scratch build, I've done plenty myself when I started 40k, especially before Forgeworld and GW started producing models for most of the options in an army list, templates are fine too, but put in some effort please. Building is part of the hobby is it not?
I think the most important thing is that you can recognize the model, like the ork builds above, clearly with guns and an awesome deff dread/killa kan, no problems with models like that.
Automatically Appended Next Post: And the dog is just awesome, not sure how I'd react to it standing all over the boards and the whole turn concept but hey that's just being picky
Herohammernostalgia wrote:And besides, it would be an accomplishment in itself to have the dog move appropriately (by the game rules) when it's his/her owner's turn and remain motionless when it's the opponents
Simple, it's a flying object, just suspend it from the celing...
I think some of you go way beyond the line of reasoning when it comes to the topic. But on the opposite end of that argument people get stupid with "scratch builds" The worst I remember personally was a guy had a blob of playdoh that was his "LRBT" I kid you not. At least he took the time to bake it so it was hard and not soft, that was a direct quote even.
PAper tanks can look really cool and I applaud people that take the time to make them look nice (that one Monolith someone did on here before was just INSANE) I also lower the bar alot if the person in question is trying something new and didnt want to waste the money. Hell even if someone really likes the game but just cant afford it, is fine. I wont damn someone just because they arnt rich enough to play 40k. But I do agree that sometime down the road, this pile of junk had better be the real deal, or a nice scratch build.
Herohammernostalgia wrote:And besides, it would be an accomplishment in itself to have the dog move appropriately (by the game rules) when it's his/her owner's turn and remain motionless when it's the opponents
Simple, it's a flying object, just suspend it from the celing...
There's a simple reality that I'm surprised nobody has touched on: Making a high quality scratch build is a big undertaking. On the face of it, I'd say making a scratch rhino, for example, would probably take me 50 hours if I wanted to make something that I could field at my FLGS. Let's do a little math
A Rhino costs forty bucks. For me, that's a little less than two hours work at my hourly job, or ten minutes work serving process. That means that for the 50 hours I spent building that rhino, I could have earned the money to buy 25 rhinos. In short, good scratch builds don't provide any return on investment from a dollar point of view.
So if someone undertakes a scratch build that is involved and indicates a clear love of the hobby, I have no problem with that, even if it doesn't look like a perfect clone of the original, because the amount of time they have spent on it is greater than the amount of time it would take to earn the money to buy it. Follow?
By that same token, if someone is making scratch builds because they say they can't afford to buy the models, well, I simply can't believe that. If you can spend 4 hours a day on a scratch build, that's time you could be working for money and buying those same models. They're building scratch because they are lazy, or would rather be making scratch models, or have other responsibilities that take priority over being at work.
But if someone was to show up with a couple boxes glued together as a landraider and say 'hey, i'm broke, i can't afford a landraider this paycheque, mind if i use this glued-up shoebox to try out with my army?' I'd be more cool with that than I would be with some guy who I know is unemployed and on welfare coming in with 1500 dollars worth of models, because he's saying 'I don't have the money to buy the model, and I don't have the time to make a good scratch build because life is more important than a land-raider right now'. I'm cool with that.
I kinda... disapprove of people just using an old shoebox for something. I certainly approve of people who make things out of plasticard as long as they are actually achieving the goal they are trying to reach. Meaning that if they actually make something that is a Rhino out of plasticard, I'll be fine with them using it. But trying to use that chunk of wood you drew treads on? I think not...
hemingway wrote:By that same token, if someone is making scratch builds because they say they can't afford to buy the models, well, I simply can't believe that. If you can spend 4 hours a day on a scratch build, that's time you could be working for money and buying those same models. They're building scratch because they are lazy, or would rather be making scratch models, or have other responsibilities that take priority over being at work.
Life doesn't work like that. Most people work say 9-5 and all their money goes on essentials and important things. Of course scratchbuilding can be seen as a cheaper alternative. The scratchbuilding takes place in evenings and weekends and can be spread out over longer periods of time. What you suggest is that if they are scratchbuilding to save money they should instead use those extra hours to get a second job which is wrong-headed in many ways. Firstly working a second job would kill some people, you need a break to do you own stuff in your own time, it takes people out of their home and away from family, and a lot of full time jobs stipulate that you can't work a second job because they rightly believe that working extra hours elsewhere impacts your productivity on their first job. Anyway, plenty of people enjoy scratch building, it's not a chore and it it saves money even better. By that logic you could question why someone would paint their own figures if they could use that time to get a job and get them commission painted.
Must admit i only read about 1 and a half page, before i decided the following pages wouldnt change much, so i just skipped ahead to give my 2 cents on the matter.
Paper or plastic, i dont care. Im in for the game, and the social side of playing with my friends or meeting new people, and most of all: Having FUN.
For me, its more important to have a good opponent, than that your opponent have a good looking army. The wrong opponent can completely ruin a game, and alot more than a paper tank or proxie!
Stop being snobs, and start having fun. You might miss out on the best game of your life, because you refuse to play a guy who didnt have the money for the right model.
What if you were to have a game with the guy who built the Tau Manta from foam, wood and cardboard. Would you refuse just because he didnt use the insane amount of money it costs? I certainly would not!
Just because you dont have the right gear, it doesnt mean you cant enjoy the game... And you are talking about a kid for crying out loud. A KID!
I certainly had fun when i was playing football with a couple of kids in Kosovo, who didnt have anything else to play with than an empty water bottle, and ran around in flip flops and rubber boots. But mayby i should just have told the poor kids, i didnt want to play them, because they didnt have "the right gear" ?? Nonsense!
Lay down your golden spoon, and start having some fun.
RiTides wrote:
Side "for"- Incredible "For Sale sign" conversion tank (see above) is a legitimate scratch-build and should be accepted by everyone
I think we start to get our wires crossed and when you say "Don't use a pepsi can for a drop pod" I hear "That incredible scratch-build is illegitimate".
In the end, most of us probably agree more than it seems here. Sometimes the "in theory" part of threads like this tends to polarize people, when in the end I've noticed that most people in person have the same standards.
Agreed. Someone who crams together a tank from construction paper and white glue or tape is not cool. Scratch built stuff like the tanks shown/mentioned above is extremely cool. I love doing conversions and Ill give huge credit to people who can whip stuff up from sheet plastic and some random bits.
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Samus_aran115 wrote:]
agnosto wrote:So... nobody would like this?
that's pretty hawt right there. I might be okay with it. A little more work and it would be pretty cool
Bonus points if its got foam in it to transport some figs.
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loki old fart wrote:
vitki wrote:
Herohammernostalgia wrote:And besides, it would be an accomplishment in itself to have the dog move appropriately (by the game rules) when it's his/her owner's turn and remain motionless when it's the opponents
Simple, it's a flying object, just suspend it from the celing...
Then all you'd have to worry about is drool
And hope he dosent pee on you
That would be the forward phaser bank. My worry would be the aft torpedoes...
Definitely a regional thing then. Never seen one. Then again, I would expect it's not the type of thing you see brought to a tournament or gaming store, in a lot of cases.
I can see why you have a lot of squigs to paint, judging by the ones being borrowed by Ludwig at the last tourney! (Although lots of those already had paint)
This thread caught my attention, "Paper Tanks". You can see many great built of the Warhammer genre over at Zealot, Papermodelers and paperhammer40k. You will be mesmerized by the ingenuity of the paper modeler. Many of them follow the templates of the GW. I am into scratch building and have made GW version models and many of my own design. When I used to play the game I would inform my opponents that some of my stuff was made out of paper cardstock. I never had a problem with my models but I would never use them in a sanctioned games but I would show them off to others as scratched built. Here at DakkaDakka I have a thread "Warhammer Armor and thing II" and there, are some of my creations. My most recent ones are a Catachan scout vehicle and a water carft LCP. I do enjoy the build and I do it for the enjoyment of the hobby, and sometimes because I see something and I say "I can do that" and so I do it. If you do not wish to play against my army, I take no offense, somebody else will.
Here are a couple photos of my paper builds for your amusement.
sworth9411 wrote:So lately I have seen a rising trend in making paper tanks based on GW designs and while I am all for scratch building this trend is starting to piss me off something fierce.....
t......
I know I cant be the only only one who hates this type of attitude
You are not the only one.
For folks that like paper that much, and don;t have the resources to play Warhammer, there are always card and role playing games.
I once berated an Ork player for using plastic fire trucks from the dollar store for his Ork trucks. Sometimes I refuse to play people with unpainted armies of REAL GW Tanks! If you made yours out of paper, I wouldn't even acknowledge you are a player at all. If I saw people trying to play with paper tanks in a store, I'd be hard pressed not to say something abrasive, and at least say," You should really buy a tank like that here".
I don't care if 'kids' are 'trying' anyone who can't afford the basic gear, get out, play in your own house, and come back when you have the means.
Also, to be explicit, making a cheap paper proxy is not a scratch build.
+1, exactly.
Hobbies are not a necessity. If you cannot afford it, return when you can or play at home.
If I invest in the appropriate models to represent and actually base and paint mine... and you arrive with LEGO or your space marines glued to bases, without arms even...
hemingway wrote:By that same token, if someone is making scratch builds because they say they can't afford to buy the models, well, I simply can't believe that. If you can spend 4 hours a day on a scratch build, that's time you could be working for money and buying those same models. They're building scratch because they are lazy, or would rather be making scratch models, or have other responsibilities that take priority over being at work.
Life doesn't work like that. Most people work say 9-5 and all their money goes on essentials and important things. Of course scratchbuilding can be seen as a cheaper alternative. The scratchbuilding takes place in evenings and weekends and can be spread out over longer periods of time. What you suggest is that if they are scratchbuilding to save money they should instead use those extra hours to get a second job which is wrong-headed in many ways. Firstly working a second job would kill some people, you need a break to do you own stuff in your own time, it takes people out of their home and away from family, and a lot of full time jobs stipulate that you can't work a second job because they rightly believe that working extra hours elsewhere impacts your productivity on their first job. Anyway, plenty of people enjoy scratch building, it's not a chore and it it saves money even better. By that logic you could question why someone would paint their own figures if they could use that time to get a job and get them commission painted.
did you even read my post? it pretty much anticipated everything you just said.
unless you're a member of the leisure class, most people have to exchange time for money to the tune of 1/3 of their day. and if you have hundreds of hours to spare building tanks out of paper, and complain about being broke, then i'm sorry, but that's just poor life-economics. we'd all love to not work, make sacrifices for our families, take on ten or twelve hour days to make ends meet. we'd all love to take things on beyond our means.
if you can't afford the game, you can't afford the game. that's fine and i'd never castigate someone for trying to pinch pennies. but if you're broke, and struggling to make ends meet (hello, most of my twenties) but you still have all kinds of time to build elaborate paper toys, then you need to make some grown up life decisions about priorities.
also, if you have the kind of job that contracts you from taking on outside work, you have no problem affording a rhino. i'm willing to be corrected here, but if there's a minimum wage job out there that has such a contract, i'd be really curious as to what company it is with.
Hobbies are not a necessity. If you cannot afford it, return when you can or play at home.
If I invest in the appropriate models to represent and actually base and paint mine... and you arrive with LEGO or your space marines glued to bases, without arms even...
Nice
We have already a consensus by large that other than a temporary proxy, the shoebox is not acceptable.
Most of us also agree that the snobbish, plutocrtaic attitude is unecessary.
If the hobby is unecessary , what do you call the painting and basing of your minis.
Or are you a professional painter?
Silveroxide
nice work man! and top attitude.
Loving that LCV be good if you could pop up a linky please.
Hobbies are not a necessity. If you cannot afford it, return when you can or play at home.
If I invest in the appropriate models to represent and actually base and paint mine... and you arrive with LEGO or your space marines glued to bases, without arms even...
Nice
We have already a consensus by large that other than a temporary proxy, the shoebox is not acceptable.
Most of us also agree that the snobbish, plutocrtaic attitude is unecessary.
If the hobby is unecessary , what do you call the painting and basing of your minis.
Or are you a professional painter?
Necessity = Food, water, shelter.
If, once you have met these 3 items from your finances and cannot afford the hobby, my previous statement applies.
If you are trying to split hairs on the definitions of English words and phrases (Ie. Necessity and Hobby) please attempt to spell the larger words you use, but may not correctly understand (Ie. Plutocratic). Also, attempting to twist or change the context which they are in is a poor attempt for arguement.
Lastly, but not least, if I can earn more than the average Gamer/Hobbyist through hard work and superior economic situation, this does not make me a 'Snob' to call it like it is.
Has this become some kind of political struggle?
Just play who you like and how you like... i mean you will not meet irl anyway.
And if you by any chance do, you can still have a nice traditional fistfight over it .
AvatarForm wrote:Hobbies are not a necessity. If you cannot afford it, return when you can or play at home.
If I invest in the appropriate models to represent and actually base and paint mine... and you arrive with LEGO or your space marines glued to bases, without arms even...
Appropriate models can be scratchbuilt though, this is confusing a lack of effort with a lack of money as being a detriment to the game. If someone turns up with a load of space marines without arms they clearly can afford to buy figures they just haven't made them properly, which is a different thing to someone scratchbuilding a replacment for an expensive kit.
what you assume to be common sense is drivelling platutinous snobbery. Note the word common. google the definition.
If you bother to read the previous posts you will find that I have already stated that I actually feel good for people that afford the stuff they get.
If you can afford the best gaming that money can buy, good for you. Chuffed for you mate.
However, there is no need to rub peoples' noses in it the fact. Most people apply common sense and good old courtesy and don't insult people with less income.
I was clarifying the distinction between hobby which generally is taken to refer to the craft aspects of gaming.
Which is what you obviously participate in if you paint and base your models.
But at the same time you deride hobbyists?
If you need to make yourself feel good about yourself by gloating over others' lack of funds then I am sorry for you.
Will see your singular definition of common sense and raise it with the decency and good form of the majority of people who have posted on this thread.
hemingway wrote:
if you can't afford the game, you can't afford the game. that's fine and i'd never castigate someone for trying to pinch pennies. but if you're broke, and struggling to make ends meet (hello, most of my twenties) but you still have all kinds of time to build elaborate paper toys, then you need to make some grown up life decisions about priorities.
also, if you have the kind of job that contracts you from taking on outside work, you have no problem affording a rhino. i'm willing to be corrected here, but if there's a minimum wage job out there that has such a contract, i'd be really curious as to what company it is with.
So you're saying that if you're not making enough money, but you have time on your hands, then it's your fault that you can't turn the additional time into money? A friend and coworker of mine got a Vendetta painted for me in a week or two's period of time while he was sitting around at home while the kids were asleep. His wife works nights, and even with them each having a job, what with two kids, often can't afford luxury items such that he's made occasional stand-ins for 40k stuff. Would you propose he leaves the kid alone while asleep in the interest of getting another job, or what? Second example, prior to my ascendancy into big-boy jobs, I was working two jobs, both in retail. I worked about 40-60 hours a week between the two, and I made enough to be comfortable with respect to necessities, but by no means enough for war-gaming. Since I did not know my schedule ahead of about a week or two, and it changed often, by as much as 20 hours between the two, how would you have proposed I landed another job?
Also, lots of retail jobs have problems with you working other retail jobs, period. I had exception by virtue of neither store selling competing products, but good luck with that if all you have around is a Wal-Mart and a grocery store.
Yeah, that's been one of the reasons why I can't get a second job (the main one being that it would kill me). Sometimes things are pretty stable, but this place has a habit of either cutting your hours or making you work mandatory overtime without any notice. And I mean any notice, you usually don't find out what's going on until the day before. Makes trying to plan for stuff difficult, and that's just how they want it...they don't really like it when employees work two jobs, they assume that you're wanting to leave then. Or they get offended because it's like telling them "you're not paying me enough".
As far as scratchbuilding goes, I don't really care so long as it looks good enough. I can accept temporary proxies or stand-ins for some models that are kinda crappy-looking, so long as it's only temporary...call me a snob if you want, but I can't accept the cardboard box with "land raider" written on it as a permanent addition to your army.
I'll just say I don't get the prevailing attitude here. To me, it's a game and the game pieces are just representations of something that is impacted by dice roles. It's like saying you can't play monopoly anymore because you lost the game pieces but still have the paper money and everything else....instead of, you know; making new game pieces to allow you to play.
As long as the representations are the proper size, shape and are identifiable, I could care less if the opponent brought a poo-flinging monkey, set it on the table and called it a stompa (as long as it flung the poo some place else).
Chibi and Deadelus have good points, it might not always be appropriate to get a second job and some jobs won't let you go for a second job. Also the extra tax is a bitch.
hemingway wrote:also, if you have the kind of job that contracts you from taking on outside work, you have no problem affording a rhino. i'm willing to be corrected here, but if there's a minimum wage job out there that has such a contract, i'd be really curious as to what company it is with.
A lot of the lower ranks in the UK Armed Forces, for example, have restrictions on employment and are very low paid.
Taking the time and making the effort to build something out of paper and plasticard, which looks good, only serves to highlight the dedication and the desire to overcome adversity. Some people make paper models, which are almost as good as the real models, because they can and because they enjoy it, irrespecive of what their income is.
All of us make choices to represent something in our modelling, cork painted as rock, bits of metal, green stuff made into cloaks or helmets, sand and bits of flock to represent grass etc, this is just an extension of that process and gets all of my admiration and respect if they were to produce, from scratch, something that resembled or even challenged the quality of the real article.
I've seen kids turn up with a dread missing, which is still at home, dog ate it, mum chucked it out, and I have no compulsion to give the kid a box, a marker, or even an empty dice box before now so that the game can go on. To turn someone away on the basis that you haven't got the real thing is heartless and not really in the spirit which this hobby should be emulating. Did you ever pick up a stick and pretend it was a gun?
AvatarForm wrote:Hobbies are not a necessity. If you cannot afford it, return when you can or play at home.
If I invest in the appropriate models to represent and actually base and paint mine... and you arrive with LEGO or your space marines glued to bases, without arms even...
Appropriate models can be scratchbuilt though, this is confusing a lack of effort with a lack of money as being a detriment to the game. If someone turns up with a load of space marines without arms they clearly can afford to buy figures they just haven't made them properly, which is a different thing to someone scratchbuilding a replacment for an expensive kit.
I can agree with the difference between lack of finances and lack of effort. However, neither excuse will pass at a national tourney.
GW tourneys are GW ONLY kits.
If you are lucky to have a good TO who lets a 'counts as' play, great. So long as it represents the model in dimensions; equipment; etc.
Chibi - how can you deride my post then agree with Sid later?
Paper tanks are not a scratchbuild. They are a template printed off a website in order to circumvent the commercial side of a hobby.
A scratchbuild is exactly that, scratchbuilt by the owner (or an agent), but not of a kit.
If you are lucky to have a good TO who lets a 'counts as' play, great. So long as it represents the model in dimensions; equipment; etc.
There in lies the basis of your attitude towards the subject. Tourneys. IMO once someone starts getting obsessed with tourneys and needs everything to be "tourney legal" then they have changed prospectives on the game. It is no longer a friendly game to be enjoyed, it has now become a sport and any enjoyment of it is directly related to how many titles they have won.
If you are lucky to have a good TO who lets a 'counts as' play, great. So long as it represents the model in dimensions; equipment; etc.
There in lies the basis of your attitude towards the subject. Tourneys. IMO once someone starts getting obsessed with tourneys and needs everything to be "tourney legal" then they have changed prospectives on the game. It is no longer a friendly game to be enjoyed, it has now become a sport and any enjoyment of it is directly related to how many titles they have won.
Your assumption is incorrect.
GW (in this instance) creates a set of rules to be played with the appropriate minis (representation of the unit/character stats).
If you intend to proxy something, a piece of folded paper/cardboard box is insufficient. I could generalise here (like many of my opponents on the subject already have) and say MOST groups/clubs will not allow this.
Please, next time Im in the UK for work/leisure, Im happy to stop by Chibi's club and stomp his paper mache to pieces on the floor, afterall, it cost nothing. This also applies to shoeboxes/icecreambuckets and beer bottles (we had a beer bottle Greater Daemon show up to a tourney recently).
AvatarForm wrote:Please, next time Im in the UK for work/leisure, Im happy to stop by Chibi's club and stomp his paper mache to pieces on the floor, afterall, it cost nothing. This also applies to shoeboxes/icecreambuckets and beer bottles (we had a beer bottle Greater Daemon show up to a tourney recently).
Would you please go back to 5th grade where you belong? Destroying other people's models is never appropriate, no matter what your hangups are.
AvatarForm wrote:Please, next time Im in the UK for work/leisure, Im happy to stop by Chibi's club and stomp his paper mache to pieces on the floor, afterall, it cost nothing. This also applies to shoeboxes/icecreambuckets and beer bottles (we had a beer bottle Greater Daemon show up to a tourney recently).
Would you please go back to 5th grade where you belong? Destroying other people's models is never appropriate, no matter what your hangups are.
I LOL'd... a cardboard box or icecream bucket is NOT a model... neither is a beer bottle (though it could make the less attractive members of the club appear model-esque)
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Ordo Dakka wrote:
Chibi Bodge-Battle wrote:Only the wealthy are allowed to play the Sacred Game
Don't fret about creativity, just spend your way to an army.
Slap with a slice of lemon, wrapped around a gold brick for the first person to write, "If you can't afford the models don't play the game."
oops too late it's been said.
Ah well at least it was more eloquently put than the usual plutocratic speil Augustus.
Only makes me more determined to proxy stuff when I hear someone spouting that sort of drivel
We can't hear you from up on your moral high ground, Chibi.
We paid for our tanks, if you aren't paying, please put the time in to make them look acceptable.
For those who have forgotten, I believe Ordo Dakka phrased it best.
Tournaments are a totally different kettle of fish, of which no-one has yet mentioned but even for tournaments some do allow "counts as" models just as long as it is based in the right size base, just so long as it looks like what it is supposed ot represent, some tournament even allow unpainted armies!!
Your viewpoint is very elitist, I dread to think what would happen if you should stumble upon a non-tournament regulation cardboard creation from a 12 year old in a club. I'd love to see the results.
Your generalisation of most clubs is incorrect; I have had the pleasure of either founding, participating in, or playing against quite a few clubs over the years, all of them had proven to be very tolerant and encoruraging.
For most normal mortal beings, and most clubs which encourage gaming, there are limits to what counts as but as long as it is more than your extreme example most will accept the effort.
This IS a game. We make our own scenery after all and to make your own models using you own skill, irrespective of whether it was from a scratch build plasticard vision or a PDF template still takes effort and skill. As long as another player is happy for you to field it, so be it.
Anyone in my club who decides to stamp to death one of the members creations would soon follow beside it.
AvatarForm wrote:I can agree with the difference between lack of finances and lack of effort. However, neither excuse will pass at a national tourney.
GW tourneys are GW ONLY kits.
So what? Most people don't play at GW tournaments, they are a niche part of a niche hobby. I don't understand the preoccupation with making things GW tourney legal. Look, that doesn't apply to scratchbuilds, it applies to all non-GW figures, and the quality isn't a consideration whether it is a piece of paper or a golden demon standard build. You could spend just as much money and effort on an army that is made up using some non-GW figures and it wouldn't be GW tourney legal. So I don't really see the point you are making by bringing up finances/effort in relation to GW tournament rules, they are clearly there to support the corporate GW-purity side of the hobby not to ensure a high quality game that has good models on the table. Which is what normal people aim for - good looking games.
Paper tanks are not a scratchbuild. They are a template printed off a website in order to circumvent the commercial side of a hobby.
Why are we talking about the commercial side of the hobby? What you can't join in the game if you're not a rich kid? This is wargaming not buying designer clothing where you have to buy expensive clothing to hang out with the cool kids.
t's this disgusting elitism raising it's head again, a 'proper' army has to be one made up of GW models and be passable in a GW shop. I don't understand why some people are pretending there are only two ends of the spectum in this discussion, GW models or ice cream tubs being used on the table. Many have made it clear that scratchbuilds can be of a high quality, and a high quality painted scratchbuild is much better on the table than a manged official GW kit. The paper models can be built to a high standard, so why continually compare them to proxies using plastic bottles, they clearly aren't the same thing at all.
The hobby is what you make it, players set the rules not GW. Where did all this bs come from about playing private game as though you are in a Games Workshop store or tournament? It's absurd that people are flying the flag for GW by telling people they have to buy GW models and wag their finger about armies not being GW tournament legal because they use scratchbuilds.
GW makes rules, lots of companies make rules. GW make figures, other companies make figures. And you can kit bash stuff from card and plastic. Something is really stinks in the hobby if people can't just be free to mix ranges of figures, models and rules as they please. As long as it looks good on the table then that's all that counts.
I agree with Treesong 100%. I think one thing we all need to recognize is that scratch build and proxies are spread all over the place, and are not all either: a) a soda bottle tossed on with a sticker on it that says 'Carnifex', or b) A masterly crafted, utterly beautiful creation crafted over hours in a cave with a box of scraps.
There is a spectrum, and that spectrum depends on a lot of things. Seriously guys, think about it. If a 13 year old comes up to you in a GW (and I mean a mature kid, not a whining complaining one) and asks for a game, and he says plainly: "I lost my Land Speeder model, and until I find it or my parents let me buy another one I have to proxy it with a box." Well, I want to know which one of you would look at that kid and say that obviously he's not working hard enough.
On the other hand, if the same guy has been placing down a game box with the word Land Raider written on it 20x over a course of months, and he flat out says he just doesn't care enough to replace it with the real thing, would you still want to play him? There is a spectrum we have to consider in this whole thing. Not everything is either a piece of crap, or completely beautiful.
I can accept temporary proxies or stand-ins for some models that are kinda crappy-looking, so long as it's only temporary...call me a snob if you want, but I can't accept the cardboard box with "land raider" written on it as a permanent addition to your army
I was saying that most people seem to agree with this and by implication that is not snobbery.
As for people considering me on the moral high ground, well so be it.
Beats being in an immoral swamp.
Ironically I'm not looking down on others. If you don't want to play someone on whatever grounds that is your perogative.
I don't have the desire or energy to prosletyise.
But don't start getting snotty and telling me what games I can and can't play.
Being able to afford what you want for the hobby is not an issue. The LOADSA MAANNEEE attitude of a conceited and vocal minority who want an exclusive club is.
Having said that, no one is forcing you to rub shoulders with the hoi poloi. You are welcome to play with yourselves.
I have been creeping the Dakka boards for some time now but never really had the urge to post, and I thought this would be a good time to start. It seems that this issue is almost as touchy as religion for most people. You would think that scratch-built miniatures is the gamer version of politics. I am sure that most people could care less about what I had to say, but I figured the same thing could be said about this thread. My intent is not to belittle people, I just thought I would give my two cents. Caution though, this may get a bit wordy.
This thread reminded me of a particular time at the store I play at. A little kid was dropped off by his mom so that he could play a game of 40k. He was likely around the age of 13, which is fairly young considering that playgroup. Given that I am 26 and considered a bit young, this kid was obviously not in his element. Regardless, it was clear that he was new to the game and had come up to play one of his first games. Everyone there knew what he was there for and you could tell that the kid was nervous to ask anyone to play. I finally went up to him and asked him if he wanted to play a game, and he awkwardly said yes. I got my miniatures out and got ready to deploy, as did he. During the process, the local group came over to inspect our soon to be game. The first thing that caught everyone's eye was the quality, or lack thereof, of his models. He had very few units that were fully assembled, and had poorly constructed boxes, and other scratch-built materials, that were used to substitute for tanks and what not. After talking with him, he clearly did not have a lot of money to spend for the hobby and did everything he could to trade for old models, which explained the lack of assembly on some of his units. The local group proceeds to laugh at the kid and pick up his models and pass them around as if the kid was a freak. Comments were made such as, "I would absolutely never allow such a thing in a game with me." To his credit, it took everything the kid had not to cry. The kid clearly wished he had the money, time, and experience to have a better looking army, but it was just something he had no control of. It is not like he did not try, and did not want to have a better looking squad, he just could not. I just smiled and politely told him that it did not bother me a bit and that he was more than welcome to use whatever he wanted. We played out our game, and when the local group finally buzzed off, the kid had a good time. His mom came to pick him up and she personally thanked me for allowing him to have a good time.
At that moment I promised myself that I would never allow myself to become so involved in this game to the point where I had such an outlook on what the other person was doing. At the end of the day, this is still just a miniature game involving elves, magic, dragons, and skeletons. Fantasy games such as this are fun for me, and I certainly hope that this hobby does not consume me to the point where I lose sight of that. People are literally saying how upset and distraught they are over how they would feel to play against someone with such models. If I were to ever get as upset as some of you claim to be, I would likely sell most of my models on Ebay the next day. I have enough stress in my life where I do not need another one involving a GAME FEATURING GOBLINS. I do not know about anyone else, but I feel no one really has a whole lot of room to judge on such a hobby.
I think a lot of it comes down to how far 'socially' removed people get. The local group that made those comments are so into the hobby that it is as much of a part of their life as their work and family is. I would certainly say that for a large portion of the group, the game is the number one driving point of their life. And there is nothing wrong with that, if that is what they wish to do, by all means. However, comments like that are usually said by the people who view this as more than a hobby. I suppose that if this game was my only source of entertainment, that drained all of my time and resources, I might be as touchy as well. And you are free to get upset at the quality of your opponents miniatures as much as you want, but you honestly should not get upset if they pack their stuff up and tell you to go .... yourself. I certainly know that I would, and would feel fairly justified in doing so. I have nothing against the hobby enthusiasts for this game, I just hope that I never get to the point where I start having this outlook on the game. Like WoW eventually got for me, it is time to step away when the game starts getting personal, and stops being fun.
A little wordy for my first post, but hopefully a good one.
If you are lucky to have a good TO who lets a 'counts as' play, great. So long as it represents the model in dimensions; equipment; etc.
There in lies the basis of your attitude towards the subject. Tourneys. IMO once someone starts getting obsessed with tourneys and needs everything to be "tourney legal" then they have changed prospectives on the game. It is no longer a friendly game to be enjoyed, it has now become a sport and any enjoyment of it is directly related to how many titles they have won.
Your assumption is incorrect.
GW (in this instance) creates a set of rules to be played with the appropriate minis (representation of the unit/character stats).
If you intend to proxy something, a piece of folded paper/cardboard box is insufficient. I could generalise here (like many of my opponents on the subject already have) and say MOST groups/clubs will not allow this.
Please, next time Im in the UK for work/leisure, Im happy to stop by Chibi's club and stomp his paper mache to pieces on the floor, afterall, it cost nothing. This also applies to shoeboxes/icecreambuckets and beer bottles (we had a beer bottle Greater Daemon show up to a tourney recently).
Overall I agree with not liking junk proxies such as bottles, cans, badly done paper, etc. The only instance is if someone is in a FLGS or home situation and says "hey, I want to test out XXX with my army before I buy the model". I could let that fly for a game.
My meaning in the statement to you was that not all situations should have to be tourney correct. Home and FLGS can and should be more forgiving, even still junk is junk period. See above statement.
As far as tourney play...thats different. Anyone who shows up for any kind of game labeled as a tournament, regardless of official GW or local club, should not show up with cans, bottles, paper models, etc. Thats a bit more seriously taken situation and should be treated as such.
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JohnHag wrote:I have been creeping the Dakka boards...A little wordy for my first post, but hopefully a good one.
Now that kid is a bit of an exception...hes not even old enough to work, I wouldnt expect him to have a lot of good stuff. I would actually feel really sorry for him.
As far as the game group...I also feel sorry for anyone who lets a hobby of any sort, games, sports, cars, etc rule their entire life. Between my time as a gamer and working in a game store Ive seen some truly sad people. RPG players seem to be the worst. The game word is inharently deeper and more detailed that tabletop games and Ive seen many who were simply lost in their fantasy world. Its all they ever talked about, everything they saw or heard became related to something in their game. Its pretty sad.
Unfortunately, for some, I'd say that Toy Soldiers is a religion, and GW is their god. It's disturbing to see how unreasonable people get when they forget it's just a game.
I'm glad I don't live in the same area that some of these people live going by what they're saying. They're either nerd-snobs or just internet John Waynes. One poster is even from Australia; you would think that if any group of individuals wouldn't have a problem with proxies and the like it would be our friends from the land of Oz considering how they get raked over the coals by GW's prices...
It's a GAME, keep your hobby away from my GAME table.
I would like to add to this topic that paper tanks are simply a different way to play a great game.
Myself, I really like the rules and concept of 40k, but often find it ridiculous to spend $60+ for a single vehicle in a miniature game that often requires more than 5 vehicles for a single game.
It could even be considered irresponsible from a global perspective to spend that much money on a single toy whereas in some country they make less than that amount each week to feed their whole family. The elitist position that some take regarding forcing others to spend as much as they do on the hobby is cruel an egoist. This great game should be spread to as many persons as possible. I personally want more casual players to get involved in this game, without the negative images carried with this game regarding the required investment.
On my end, I get stuff off ebay, discount stores, and sometimes from my gaming club. I also look at scratch building arms and bitz of vehicles since I find it futile to spend $8+ for a single weapon bit.
If someone makes some nice looking paper model that are a good representation of the actual model, good for them. The end state must be that it looks good and that it is not "shocking" for others.
The end state is, do you prefer playing with:
-a good player bringing whatever he can to play against you,
-whatever player with enough money to get good models to play against you
My pick is simple, I play the game, the hobby is simply an extra that should never become a social distinction between players.
Am I the only one who thinks this debate is going nowhere?
Lets just agree on disagreeing, and be done with it.
some people dont mind proxies and paper models. Others do. Actually there is nothing more to it.
People just have different openions.
Im sure we can start a new thread, where we discuss if you should bye an new car or an old car, and someone stating that if you cant afford a new car you shouldnt be driving at all.
People are people and we have different openions, but this is a waste of time.
I only see "scratchbuilding" a problem when you use other Non-GW models to "Count as". The example a few pages back about an Ork player using 1$ Plastic toy Firetrucks as Ork Trucks is a no, I wouldn't play against it. I've had a pick up game at my FLGS where a kid wanted to field quarters as Drones, and Gumdun toys as Broadside Suits, and so on.
I have no problem playing games with unpainted armies (The majority of people who play do not field fully painted armies, that's a rarity unless your at a tournament.), or even if the player wants to proxy a tank or two. When the guy wants to use random objects as models, no.
I game with two scratchbuilt Tervigons, and own a dozen or so Mycetic Spores. I've played with these scratchbuilts at two GT level events and numerous RTT events. Now, I've probably spent a few hours painting these, and putting effort into making them look tabletop worthy.
The Mycetic Spores are made of Hot Glue, a CD Base, and a paper towel roll.
The Tervigons are made from a handful of gaunts, a CD Base, Pink foam, and Hot Glue.
I've never had a problem with an opponent with my scratchbuilt models. Then again, for the models I scratchbuilt, there ARE no GW "Official" models for that unit. Unlike the Ork player with toy firetrucks.
Howard A Treesong wrote:
Which is what normal people aim for - good looking games.
I agree with this, however, when someone plonks crap on the table, they are not contributing to a 'good looking game'.
Paper tanks, cut and folded, not painted. Shoeboxes/cardboard boxes with words written all over them are not included in this.
We have already addressed many of the points you raised Howard, you are rehashing the same arguement.
@ChrisWWII - your points are rehashing the last 5 pages.
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agnosto wrote:I'm glad I don't live in the same area that some of these people live going by what they're saying. They're either nerd-snobs or just internet John Waynes. One poster is even from Australia; you would think that if any group of individuals wouldn't have a problem with proxies and the like it would be our friends from the land of Oz considering how they get raked over the coals by GW's prices...
It's a GAME, keep your hobby away from my GAME table.
What has being in Australia got to do with anything?
We can buy from Maelstrom and save more than USA RRP, including shipping.
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gorium wrote:I would like to add to this topic that paper tanks are simply a different way to play a great game.
Myself, I really like the rules and concept of 40k, but often find it ridiculous to spend $60+ for a single vehicle in a miniature game that often requires more than 5 vehicles for a single game.
It could even be considered irresponsible from a global perspective to spend that much money on a single toy whereas in some country they make less than that amount each week to feed their whole family. The elitist position that some take regarding forcing others to spend as much as they do on the hobby is cruel an egoist. This great game should be spread to as many persons as possible. I personally want more casual players to get involved in this game, without the negative images carried with this game regarding the required investment.
On my end, I get stuff off ebay, discount stores, and sometimes from my gaming club. I also look at scratch building arms and bitz of vehicles since I find it futile to spend $8+ for a single weapon bit.
If someone makes some nice looking paper model that are a good representation of the actual model, good for them. The end state must be that it looks good and that it is not "shocking" for others.
The end state is, do you prefer playing with:
-a good player bringing whatever he can to play against you,
-whatever player with enough money to get good models to play against you
My pick is simple, I play the game, the hobby is simply an extra that should never become a social distinction between players.
I agree. Warhammer and 40k systems are a financial commitment. However, your examples fail to recognise the different economies and costs of living in each.
Your arguement for a 'nice looking' model is fair. The problem has been with cheap rubbish 'counts as' that players wish to pass of on a continuing basis.
Yes it is a game, but I prefer to spend my time playing against players who have enough respect to put in the effort to present a 'nice looking' army on the tabletop.
As others have explained, its ok to proxy something until you can get the correct mini or a decent representation (if the model is not released) but there is a line.
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Auxellion wrote:Awesome scratchbuilds
There is nothing wrong with your efforts mate.
The problem that myself and others have expressed is when someone does not care nor respect the hobby/game enough to go to even a portion of the effort you have expended to represent models that are not in production.
Some even go to less effort to represent existing models.
AvatarForm wrote:We have already addressed many of the points you raised Howard, you are rehashing the same arguement.
As are you. I mean...
Your arguement for a 'nice looking' model is fair. The problem has been with cheap rubbish 'counts as' that players wish to pass of on a continuing basis.
How many people are actually arguing for long term use of poor proxies? The cardboard box substitute is for one-off games, for a forgotten model or for testing out something before purchase and even that is considered dubious in some circumstances. For long term use just about everyone agrees that there's no excuse for good quality models, bought or scratchbuilt to be fielded. Fielding a cardboard box time and again will not be looked upon kindly by pretty much anyone here.
Auxellion wrote:I only see "scratchbuilding" a problem when you use other Non-GW models to "Count as". The example a few pages back about an Ork player using 1$ Plastic toy Firetrucks as Ork Trucks is a no, I wouldn't play against it. I've had a pick up game at my FLGS where a kid wanted to field quarters as Drones, and Gumdun toys as Broadside Suits, and so on.
I have no problem playing games with unpainted armies (The majority of people who play do not field fully painted armies, that's a rarity unless your at a tournament.), or even if the player wants to proxy a tank or two. When the guy wants to use random objects as models, no.
I game with two scratchbuilt Tervigons, and own a dozen or so Mycetic Spores. I've played with these scratchbuilts at two GT level events and numerous RTT events. Now, I've probably spent a few hours painting these, and putting effort into making them look tabletop worthy.
The Mycetic Spores are made of Hot Glue, a CD Base, and a paper towel roll.
The Tervigons are made from a handful of gaunts, a CD Base, Pink foam, and Hot Glue.
I've never had a problem with an opponent with my scratchbuilt models. Then again, for the models I scratchbuilt, there ARE no GW "Official" models for that unit. Unlike the Ork player with toy firetrucks.
Good read otherwise
See thats cool there. Thats true scratchbuilding, there was real time and effort put into it.
As a matter of fact I can remember the days (mid-late 90s) when GW publications such as White Dwarf were full of articles on how to scratch build stuff...particularly scenery. They used to feature many conversions that used non GW parts. However as they have grown and expanded their offerings they have taken up the "everything has to be GW models and parts only" attitude. Fine and dandy, they are in business to sell products and make money. The people who have been drinking a little too much GW Kool-Aid and adopted the same strict attitude for all games everywhere is a little silly.
Auxellion wrote:I game with two scratchbuilt Tervigons, and own a dozen or so Mycetic Spores. I've played with these scratchbuilts at two GT level events and numerous RTT events. Now, I've probably spent a few hours painting these, and putting effort into making them look tabletop worthy.
What separates this from shoebox-with-landraider-written-on-it is very simple. Effort.
If it looks like you've tried then very few people will complain - even if the results aren't as good as your example.
What separates this from shoebox-with-landraider-written-on-it is very simple. Effort.
If it looks like you've tried then very few people will complain - even if the results aren't as good as your example.
Seconded. That's what I would base my approval of a model on too. If you took that shoebox, and took the time to cut it and play with it so it looked like a Land Raider, then painted it, I don't anyone would complain. It'd be the same as refusing to play someone because not all their models are Golden Daemon standard.
sworth9411 wrote:So lately I have seen a rising trend in making paper tanks based on GW designs and while I am all for scratch building this trend is starting to piss me off something fierce.....
I do not have any problem at all with someone building one up well with plasticard, painting it and using it, but what I am seeing is a growing trend of gamers making out of paper, foam board or similar glueing haphazardly and passing it off as a tank....
I am the first person the advocate using proxies, scratchbuilding minis, using model cars (Im looking at you ork players....) etc. etc. etc. but this current trend is sickening me.....
I for one am putting my foot down and refusing to play against people without at least a scrap of effort (hell we had a player with pipe cleaner models with googly eyes as count as bloodletters and I played him all the time without a problem) but this is getting ridiculous.....
Does anyone agree / disagree? Why or Why not......
I know I cant be the only only one who hates this type of attitude
Depends on how much effort is involved in the paper tanks. I've played folks with wooden tanks. Some days its better to play someone that puts alot of effort into paper tanks then the guy that has GW plastic ones that puts neither effort in converting nor painting(for whatever reason).
Not talking about scratch built models
Not talking about meticulous constructed conversions
Not talking about kids
Not talking about new players
Talking about Land Raiders and Rhinos, NOT unavailable Model proxies, but copies...
It's appalling.
On with it:
Arnie_DK wrote:What a mud pitchin fight this have become....Just because you dont have the right gear, it doesnt mean you cant enjoy the game... And you are talking about a kid for crying out loud. A KID!...Lay down your golden spoon, and start having some fun.
And thats an order
You didn't even read the whole thread, by your own admission.
We are not talking about kids. We are talking about paper copy substitutions from the original posters own post and follow on. How about encouraging a higher standard all round? Kids included. How about reading whole threads before coming to conclusions.
Arnie_DK wrote:Am I the only one who thinks this debate is going nowhere?...People are people and we have different openions, but this is a waste of time.
Just because you are done with the thread doesn't mean everyone else is, feel free to move along Sarge. Maybe attitudes like this are why low standards are becoming accepted because everyone is more concerned with making people feel good about themselves and being apologists than calling things like they are, even in the Army.
This is cool, this is a scratchbuild, but see above, not what we are talking about, this isn't a paper copy of an existing kit. Linking these 2 issues Off Topic, is about all the posters on the side of 'paper tanks' can do to give the concept any legitimacy. This is what we are talking about:
agnosto wrote:So... nobody would like this?
From experienced players:
sworth9411 wrote:...When it comes to paper models let me be more clear as to what I was referencing;
A group of gamers (not newbies people whove been in it for several years) took it upon themelves to scribble outlines of rhinos land raiders etc on notebook paper, tape them up and field them as playable models. I have heard from alot of my friends across the country and across the pond that these paper tanks are a growing trend in their communities as well, especially ones printed off the internet.
Avatar Form has it:
AvatarForm wrote:Paper tanks are not a scratchbuild. They are a template printed off a website in order to circumvent the commercial side of a hobby.
AvatarForm wrote:+1, exactly.
Hobbies are not a necessity. If you cannot afford it, return when you can or play at home.
If I invest in the appropriate models to represent and actually base and paint mine... and you arrive with LEGO or your space marines glued to bases, without arms even...
Glad to not be the only one who gets it. Thanks!
AvatarForm wrote:Lastly, but not least, if I can earn more than the average Gamer/Hobbyist through hard work and superior economic situation, this does not make me a 'Snob' to call it like it is.
I see your Consensus and raise you Common Sense.
BAM!
Chibi Bodge-Battle wrote:We have already a consensus by large that other than a temporary proxy, the shoebox is not acceptable.
Glad to hear you say this (at least).
On to the real gem. Welcome to Dakka John
JohnHag wrote:...A little kid was dropped off by his mom so that he could play a game of 40k. He was likely around the age of 13,
Ok I am stopping right here, the rest of this bleeding heart foolishness doesn't matter. Defending this sort of bad parenting is appalling. Why are parents dropping 13 year olds at stores so they can be baby sat? Anyone else see the problem here, not that older players are condescending but that some idiot parents are pawning their kids off at a store to have fun all day with the wrong gear and no idea of how to play the game? That's what ruins stores! Parental neglect is not the theme of this thread. This whole story is a disgusting sappy bleeding heart sympathy bait and switch.
JohnHag wrote:The local group proceeds to laugh at the kid and pick up his models and pass them around as if the kid was a freak. Comments were made such as, "I would absolutely never allow such a thing in a game with me." To his credit, it took everything the kid had not to cry. The kid clearly wished he had the money, time, and experience to have a better looking army, but it was just something he had no control of.
Perfect, with a little luck he would never have come back.
Terse?
Of course, here's some perspective:
Mom drops 13 year old off at Dave and Busters with no supervision and insuficient resources. Kid has nothing to, staff asks kid not to loiter. Kid wanders into bar, kid asks people for tokens. Kid is kicked out.
OMG THE MEAN PEEPLZ 4 KEEPN THE KIDZ OWT ZOMG THE MEENZOR....
get it? Just because the hobby may appeal to young people doesn't mean it's a babysitting service where they have space to play.
Also see above, this thread isn't about kids! It's about experienced players using proxy models made of paper!
JohnHag wrote:His mom came to pick him up and she personally thanked me for allowing him to have a good time.
I hope she was a very nice milf!
gorium wrote:It could even be considered irresponsible from a global perspective to spend that much money on a single toy whereas in some country they make less than that amount each week to feed their whole family.
Please sell your army and donate it to charity. This the 'paper tanks' thread not the class struggle thread.
(AWESOME TYRANID SPORE PODS with a big image)
These are first class! Well done, play you anytime, and be honored to do it!
I wanted to throw out some praise and also beat this into the ground, these are NOT PAPER COPIES!
Scott-S6 wrote:What separates this from shoebox-with-landraider-written-on-it is very simple. Effort.
If it looks like you've tried then very few people will complain - even if the results aren't as good as your example.
Wrong, what separates these is that the models for spore pods don't exist!
What is so fundamentally wrong with scratchbuilding a copy of a model? Without resorting to talk of 'tournament' rules or 'IP' please.
I don't personally see it as being worthwhile for the cheaper kits, but you're onto a looser if you're arguing against bigger models, around half of the Warhound Titan builds on here are scratchbuilds, probably from the same set of plans and look very close to the real thing.
What's the logic? If you want to scratch build a model of something it shouldn't look like the standard kit? Then you'll probably complain it's either the wrong size/shape for gaming or otherwise isn't a suitable representation of the piece it's playing.
Ahhh, I think we all have gotten a bit off topic then. If we're talking about that photo where the guy is fielding an army of paper tyranid cut outs glued to a base? I can't see how'd that fly anywhere. I think Augustus has hit this topic right on the head.
Augustus wrote:(AWESOME TYRANID SPORE PODS with a big image)
These are first class! Well done, play you anytime, and be honored to do it! I wanted to throw out some praise and also beat this into the ground, these are NOT PAPER COPIES!
Scott-S6 wrote:What separates this from shoebox-with-landraider-written-on-it is very simple. Effort. If it looks like you've tried then very few people will complain - even if the results aren't as good as your example.
Wrong, what separates these is that the models for spore pods don't exist!
So you'd have a problem with them if there was a spore pod model? I don't see what the availability of an official model has to do with it.
Howard A Treesong wrote:What is so fundamentally wrong with scratchbuilding a copy of a model? Without resorting to talk of 'tournament' rules or 'IP' please.
It doesn't support the community.
Could you play at home and love the game with all home made everything? Sure. This wouldn't keep an LGS around though.
These next parts are a bit more esoteric.
Using paper copies deprives the player of the heart and soul of the hobby, making and painting models!
40k could easily be a board game and work just fine mechanically, some minis games even started that way. But making paper models and playing never allows for the awesome satisfaction of actually crafting some of the best models in the world, painting, kitbashing, converting, posing etc. all the wonderful reasons you get into a minis game in the first place.
Using paper copies and playing privately never allows for the greatness of sharing art.
You have to share art for it to be great! That's where the virtue is! What point would there be to compose the best song, or best painting or wargame ever if the creator was the last man in creation? These things ought to be shared!
What's the logic?
I tried to give you an honest answer, in spite of my initial reaction to write, 'explain to me, without reference to ethics or law why theft is bad'. This little bit at the end is only intended to illustrate that the case of (100% complete) copying as a legitimate issue.
I'm still perfectly in favor of playing someone who can't afford the models right now with a temporary proxy. Emphasis on the word temporary. If you come in and say, 'Hey, I want to test this list with a LR, but I can't buy one yet." Or better yet. "I bought it, but it's still in shipment." I'd play him with the cardboard box. Now, if he says, "Yeah, a Land Raider is too expensive. I'm just using a tissue box." THAT I wouldn't tolerate.
I don't know about you, but I like getting kids into the hobby. If the parents a bad parent....well that's their fault. I don't consider it being a bleeding heart to be nice to a new player, especially one whose very excited about some cool unit he's read about and wants to proxy. I'll cut a kid a bit more slack than I would an older player. The point is, there's a difference between being nice to a new player, and being a bleeding heart crying that it's unfair class snobbery to get pissed at a cardboard Land Raider.
ChrisWWII wrote:I'm still perfectly in favor of playing someone who can't afford the models right now with a temporary proxy. Emphasis on the word temporary. If you come in and say, 'Hey, I want to test this list with a LR, but I can't buy one yet." Or better yet. "I bought it, but it's still in shipment." I'd play him with the cardboard box. Now, if he says, "Yeah, a Land Raider is too expensive. I'm just using a tissue box." THAT I wouldn't tolerate.
I don't know about you, but I like getting kids into the hobby. If the parents a bad parent....well that's their fault. I don't consider it being a bleeding heart to be nice to a new player, especially one whose very excited about some cool unit he's read about and wants to proxy. I'll cut a kid a bit more slack than I would an older player. The point is, there's a difference between being nice to a new player, and being a bleeding heart crying that it's unfair class snobbery to get pissed at a cardboard Land Raider.
Yes, but what we are trying to explain is this is not about TEMPORARY proxies... this is about players who want to substitute a printed out cut out that they have folded and labelled/drawn and outline on...
Not scratch builds; not alternate gaming lines; not temps.
AvatarForm wrote:Yes, but what we are trying to explain is this is not about TEMPORARY proxies... this is about players who want to substitute a printed out cut out that they have folded and labelled/drawn and outline on...
Not scratch builds; not alternate gaming lines; not temps.
If you've been reading my posts you'll realise I'm interested in games looking good. Paper models can look very good when built properly. I don't support a sloppily put together paper model any more than a sloppily built model. If paper models look rubbish then they shouldn't be anything more then a temporary proxy, but the two opposing viewpoints I'm dealing with here are that paper models are apparently rubbish by virtue of the fact they are paper/card. Which simply isn't true because some are built to a very high standard. The other viewpoint is that by scratchbuilding a model of a kit that exists you are morally wrong, you are violating IP and quite simply, you shouldn't be allowed to scratchbuild something regardless of quality and field a it if you can buy it in a shop for £30.
If it's an argument about quality then I'm behind you. I don't want to see rubbish being fielded time and again because I'm a person who only uses painted miniatures for a start. But I don't accept that all paper models are inherently rubbish, and I don't accept the worth of an argument based on violating IP and 'not supporting the community'. Someone building a model of a tank probably has a heap of figures which they have bought from a store. Well built paper models would usually supplement an army which is being bought from a store, I don't believe in an all or nothing approach to gaming, you can mix normal figures with scratchbuilds. Which seems to suggest that if you scratchbuild a model you are depriving someone of a sale. Well I'm considering scratchbuilding some of forgeworld's fancier items, but whether I go ahead or not makes no difference to the fact that I will never drop £300 on a titan.
Hi folks.
I think the problem is NON GW games tend to be less product line orentated.
So people a quite happy to use anything they like to try out the rules.
And if the like them they MAY buy or scratch build somthing to play the rules on a regular basis.
40k and WHFB are VERY dependant on the strong asthetics to carry the 'less than stella' rules sets.
GW plc charge a premium price for thier models.
As they promote a good looking game , over a great playing game.
So MOST GW gamers feel impelled to part with cash to follow the expencive GW example armies.
Because without the cool looking models ,(bought or scratch built-converted), the experiance is not that good , comparativley.
I have played great games with bits of paper /card/balsa wood.
The 'proper models ' just enhanced the experiance.
With 40k the proper models tend to 'be' the majority of the experiance .
This is the dichotemy in this thread IMO.
In other game systems systems the models are the icing on the cake.(An asthetic layer than enhances the appearance.)
With 40k the models are the cake, and the rules are just the icing on the cake!(Acording to JJ)
Yes, but what we are trying to explain is this is not about TEMPORARY proxies... this is about players who want to substitute a printed out cut out that they have folded and labelled/drawn and outline on...
Not scratch builds; not alternate gaming lines; not temps.
I was replying mostly to Augustus, who had made the bleeding heart a main point of his refutation, and I was replying to him in particular. I fully understand that it's about paper models, and my status is that I don't mind. IN a way, a paper model IS a scratch build, as you are building a model without a GW model as a base. I'm perfectly happy to play against a paper model, as long as it's clear you've tried to make that model resemble the real thing.
AvatarForm wrote:Yes, but what we are trying to explain is this is not about TEMPORARY proxies... this is about players who want to substitute a printed out cut out that they have folded and labelled/drawn and outline on...
Not scratch builds; not alternate gaming lines; not temps.
If you've been reading my posts you'll realise I'm interested in games looking good. Paper models can look very good when built properly. I don't support a sloppily put together paper model any more than a sloppily built model. If paper models look rubbish then they shouldn't be anything more then a temporary proxy, but the two opposing viewpoints I'm dealing with here are that paper models are apparently rubbish by virtue of the fact they are paper/card. Which simply isn't true because some are built to a very high standard. The other viewpoint is that by scratchbuilding a model of a kit that exists you are morally wrong, you are violating IP and quite simply, you shouldn't be allowed to scratchbuild something regardless of quality and field a it if you can buy it in a shop for £30.
If it's an argument about quality then I'm behind you. I don't want to see rubbish being fielded time and again because I'm a person who only uses painted miniatures for a start. But I don't accept that all paper models are inherently rubbish, and I don't accept the worth of an argument based on violating IP and 'not supporting the community'. Someone building a model of a tank probably has a heap of figures which they have bought from a store. Well built paper models would usually supplement an army which is being bought from a store, I don't believe in an all or nothing approach to gaming, you can mix normal figures with scratchbuilds. Which seems to suggest that if you scratchbuild a model you are depriving someone of a sale. Well I'm considering scratchbuilding some of forgeworld's fancier items, but whether I go ahead or not makes no difference to the fact that I will never drop £300 on a titan.
Howard, my post was in response to Chris... however, given that you both seem to post immediately after eachother, my theory is this:
1. You are the same person posting under different accounts in order to add 'weight' to your shared viewpoints. In this instance you seem to have confused which account you were posting from when responding.
2. You are 2 separate individuals who thread-stalk eachother...
Or, we're two separate people who happen to be signed on and posting at the same time? I note you seem to have stopped debating in order to make snide comments....
AvatarForm wrote: Howard, my post was in response to Chris... however, given that you both seem to post immediately after eachother, my theory is this:
1. You are the same person posting under different accounts in order to add 'weight' to your shared viewpoints. In this instance you seem to have confused which account you were posting from when responding.
2. You are 2 separate individuals who thread-stalk eachother...
Im not sure which ne is more strange...
Are you seriously suggesting we're one individual that runs two accounts running up hundreds of posts each? That's a lot of work for a sock puppet. I'm sure a mod will be able to prove we operate from different IP addresses if you wish to pursue this paranoia.
A for thread-stalking, as far as I'm aware this is the only thread we share considerable participation in. I mean looking at his posting history he contributes a bit to the Make the Call section which is somewhere I almost never go mainly because I don't play current editions of the game.
AvatarForm wrote:
Howard, my post was in response to Chris... however, given that you both seem to post immediately after eachother, my theory is this:
1. You are the same person posting under different accounts in order to add 'weight' to your shared viewpoints. In this instance you seem to have confused which account you were posting from when responding.
2. You are 2 separate individuals who thread-stalk eachother...
Im not sure which ne is more strange...
Or maybe they both live in the same time-zone, thus allowing them both to be online at approximately the same time, and they both happen to feel the same way?
Woah... what if I'm a sock puppet? How to I check?
Or maybe they both live in the same time-zone, thus allowing them both to be online at approximately the same time, and they both happen to feel the same way?
Woah... what if I'm a sock puppet? How to I check?
Did you post very soon after someone?
Did you support their point?
If you answered yes to either of these question, then congratulations! You're a sockpuppet!
AvatarForm wrote:
Howard, my post was in response to Chris... however, given that you both seem to post immediately after eachother, my theory is this:
1. You are the same person posting under different accounts in order to add 'weight' to your shared viewpoints. In this instance you seem to have confused which account you were posting from when responding.
2. You are 2 separate individuals who thread-stalk eachother...
Im not sure which ne is more strange...
Or maybe they both live in the same time-zone, thus allowing them both to be online at approximately the same time, and they both happen to feel the same way?
Woah... what if I'm a sock puppet? How to I check?
No, I'm the SOCK PUPPET!
Seriously AvatarForm you need to relax a little bit, its just plastic (or paper) soldiers!
Would you rather play with a player that fields unpainted GW models (thus legal)?
or
Would you rather play with a player that fields high quality paper tanks and high quality scratch built models?
I am still trying to narrow this down to.... is it a matter of looks or of money invested..... and subsequently forcing someone to abide to the same standard than you...
If I recall, the company selling 40k is called GAMES workshop.... not hobby workshop.
^^ I'll play either of them. It doesn't matter to me. More importantly, this is not what we're discussing here. We've all agreed that there's nothing wrong with scratch builds, whatever they might be made out of. This argument is over people throwing down tissue boxes with 'Land Raider' written on it. Or worse....this.
As you can see, this guy simply printed out pictures of Tyranids, and mounted them on bases to be used as models. This I do not find acceptable at all, and probably would try to avoid playing against.
Howard A Treesong wrote:..I don't accept that all paper models are inherently rubbish,...
I do. More to the point, rubbish as substitute game pieces. As art, they could be great. In the context of the thread though, with the express purpose of use as proxies, rubbish, at any caliber.
Howard A Treesong wrote:and I don't accept the worth of an argument based on violating IP and 'not supporting the community'.
Do you never play in stores? Do you never play in sanctioned events, demos, Hardboy, or tourneys? Do you really think there is no merit at all in seeing some of the money get back to the stores and company who created the ideas for every model you play with? Honestly I have a hard time believing you don't want to support the community in this way if you are even on these boards?
Howard A Treesong wrote:Someone building a model of a tank probably has a heap of figures which they have bought from a store. Well built paper models would usually supplement an army which is being bought from a store, I don't believe in an all or nothing approach to gaming, you can mix normal figures with scratchbuilds.
Probably, but is depriving just a few sales ok? Assuming you bought the infantry, to make all paper copy tanks?
Howard A Treesong wrote:Which seems to suggest that if you scratchbuild a model you are depriving someone of a sale.
Yes, but once again in context, if one, as a veteran experienced player, chose to tape together paper copies they are depriving sales, and setting quite a poor example as well, if playing in a public venue of any sort, even to other members of the group.
I don't think it is an undue stretch to call the landraider marker shoe box and the scratchbuilt battlewagon in this thread completely different things.
Augustus wrote:
Probably, but is depriving just a few sales ok? Assuming you bought the infantry, to make all paper copy tanks?
This makes the same fallacy that the recording industry, movie industry, and video game industry all make when claiming that piracy is killing them: Not every pirated copy (or paper tank) is a lost sale.
Just because someone has a copy doesn't mean they would have ever paid for the original, no matter how hostile the universe becomes to their copies.
As you can see, this guy simply printed out pictures of Tyranids, and mounted them on bases to be used as models. This I do not find acceptable at all, and probably would try to avoid playing against.
Thing is these are more visually stimulating then the piles of unpainted figs many players plop down on a regular basis...
CT GAMER wrote:Thing is these are more visually stimulating then the piles of unpainted figs many players plop down on a regular basis...
No, actually, not really.
Who cares about the stores anyway right? Lets just encourage people to make copies and play in their basements. It's all about the gamez anyway.
Both of those examples are junk IMO, don't like either one, especially the black and white Ork Battlewagon, it's terrible. Wouldn't play it,. wouldn't let it in my store, wouldn't let it in my tourney, would tell the owner to get a real one.
Man, after that, I think I just want to say I'm done with this thread. Anyone who has a problem with those vehicles there's just no reasoning with. To whomever made those, I think they're awesome, and my hat's off to you. Especially the Rhino. Looks better than most of the plastic ones I have.
Augustus wrote:Wouldn't play it,. wouldn't let it in my store, wouldn't let it in my tourney, would tell the owner to get a real one.
Not trying to be an ass but if you own a game store, you of course have a strongly vested interest in one side of the conversation. Some could plonk down a gold-plated, hand-crafted battlewagon next to an unpainted, badly assembled GW one and you'd still prefer the GW one. For you, it's personal economics, not the hobby, not the game.
That at least makes your intransigent stance understandable.
CT GAMER wrote:Thing is these are more visually stimulating then the piles of unpainted figs many players plop down on a regular basis...
No, actually, not really.
Who cares about the stores anyway right? Lets just encourage people to make copies and play in their basements. It's all about the gamez anyway.
Both of those examples are junk IMO, don't like either one, especially the black and white Ork Battlewagon, it's terrible. Wouldn't play it,. wouldn't let it in my store, wouldn't let it in my tourney, would tell the owner to get a real one.
You go girl!!!
Give um hell!!!
Personally I don't own or play any paper models, but I also don't aspire to be TFG and wouldn't have an issue with it.
Then again I sometimes forget what serious business toy soldiers really is...
Not to mention that the section of my post you quoted had nothing to do with economics or any stance for or against supporting store. I was speaking purely to visual appeal, and Those colored card cut outs do indeed provide more visual stimulation then naked grey plastic no matter how hard you want to change the subject...
I don't own a store, but I have been around long enough to watch several go out of business for a variety of reasons, not the least of which are enough gamers being cheap and belligerent.
Augustus, as much as your debunking earlier was awesome, I have to say I'd happily play that scratch built Battlewagon, especially after it was painted. Whoever made that clearly has a great dedication to the hobby, and if he was in my (hypothetical) store? I'd congratulate him. Even though he may not buy much, his enthusiasm would undoubtedly make the environment better for all players.
And even though the 'Nids are colorful, you have to remember....they're pieces of paper! 2D things stuck on a base! I'd rather fight a ghost plastic army than those things up there.
Augustus wrote:I don't own a store, but I have been around long enough to watch several go out of business for a variety of reasons, not the least of which are enough gamers being cheap and belligerent.
You do understand that many people do not play in stores and don't aspire to right? You do understand that someone who makes a paper model isn't always doing so simply to avoid buying the real thing right? Don't attempt to apply your one vision of someone's motivation for doing something onto everyone that might build such a model.
Yes a business owner has every right to deny non-paying customers from using his gaming space, as does any event organizer. That goes without saying, but has nothing to do with what we are discussing really.
I personally don't buy from any LGS and don't play in them either. MY using a paper model (if I chose to) has no impact on the profits of any LGS. Thus your desire to turn this into a debate over supporting stores is largely ignorant and without merit...
You may choose to play or not play me and y paper models (if I had any) for personal reasons, but my owning/using them has no effect on any LGS's profits...
Lost track of this thread for a bit, but I have to say Augustus I did enjoy your rebuttals . And I see your point. Scratch builds (for the most part) do not equal paper tanks.
However, "paper tanks" like the above battle wagon and rhino I would lump in with scratch builds. It looks like they're either using layers of paper or thicker paper, which could basically be plasticard, which could basically be a scratch build
And I will leave you with a catchy tune from 3rd grade music class: A round is a circle, a circle is round / Fits like a puzzle, as it goes round / Notes fly by like clouds in the sky / A round is a circle, a circle is round (sung by kids not yet at puberty and with a different group starting on the first verse whenever the first group gets to the next one)
ChrisWWII wrote:Augustus, as much as your debunking earlier was awesome, I have to say I'd happily play that scratch built Battlewagon,.
+1
Who is more dedicated to the hobby, the guy who buys the GW kit slaps it together in 45 minutes and pushes it's gray unpainted mass around game after game or the guy that spent a FAR larger time building that paper version and also made it to such a high degree of detail/accuracy?
I'd rather have "paper modeler" and his creations in my gaming group then "unpainted BW guy" any day of the week...
Automatically Appended Next Post:
RiTides wrote:However, "paper tanks" like the above battle wagon and rhino I would lump in with scratch builds. It looks like they're either using layers of paper or thicker paper, which could basically be plasticard, which could basically be a scratch build
+1
That paper rhino would only be discovered as such if picked up and the weight was off. I don't know about you guys but I don't pick up all my opponent's models pre-game to estimate weight before I decide to play them or not...
If I can't tell with the eye then what does it really matter, and I'm guessing the BW could be painted to be just as convincing.
So if I plop that rhino down and you can't tell it's paper and we play or if i tell you does knowing it is paper really change your desire to play? IF you answer yes then your probably not the kind of person I want to hang around/game with anyways. Thanks for helping me not waste my time I guess...
I kind of mentioned this in my last post, but I guess I should expand on it. Economics is not the only thing that is required to run a gaming store. Yes, you need money coming in, but you also need a good community. If you judge a member's worth in your community based on the amount of stuff he buys from you...imagine who you're cutting out? Here is a deliberately skewed example to illustrate my point. Suppose a GT Winning gamer moves to you town, and becomes part of your stores. He doesn't buy very much, but he's always giving out great tips for playing, painting and all kinds of useful things.
On the other hand, you have a 14 year old kid who buys TONS of stuff from you thanks to a big allowance from parents who just want him out of their hair. He's not TFG, but he lacks skills when it comes to painting, modelling and playing the game.
Who would you say is the bigger contributor to the Community? If you look at it purely economically, it's the kid. But once you factor in all the other things that make up a gaming community, obvious the GT winner is the much more important contributor and member of the community.
Augustus wrote:I don't own a store, but I have been around long enough to watch several go out of business for a variety of reasons, not the least of which are enough gamers being cheap and belligerent.
I don't want to seem like I'm jumping on you, but I disagree; additionally, I'm not sure where "belligerent" comes in to the equation as it has nothing to do with someone buying a product or producing their own.
Cheap or broke gamers wouldn't be purchasing from any FLGS anyway so I fail to see how they would fold because someone who wasn't going to buy anything from them, didn't. People that argue such points are basing their opinion on one, erroneous belief; that people that pirate (or in this case scratchbuild or photocopy and past on stands) would have purchased something to begin with.
Most people don't start the day thinking thoughts like, "How will I cause the downfall of my FLGS or the company that makes the game I play?" I would state that if you gave someone the option of either buying something or spending countless hours scratchbuilding it or folding it from paper, would buy it if they had the funds.
Here, Tommy, you can buy this Battlewagon for $60 OR you can spend $10 in materials and 10 hours of labor to build something that may or may not look something like the original once it's complete.
That's my stance on the matter; you, of course, are more than welcome to maintain your own. But in the nature of mutual dialog, it helps to see both sides of the argument.
Augustus wrote:I don't own a store, but I have been around long enough to watch several go out of business for a variety of reasons, not the least of which are enough gamers being cheap and belligerent.
You do understand that many people do not play in stores and don't aspire to right?
Indeed, and I admit, playing in stores is not the only way to do it.
I speak very brusquely I know
I cant help but recognize the craftsmanship in those examples CT, but they are both obviously made as proxies, which.... well you know what I think. To put a finer point on it, this I think is very cool by contrast, because it's a wonderful piece, but not intended as a proxy.
It's big and beautiful and unique! But it isn't a proxy play piece. I think most fans of 40k would like seeing this, in a store or otherwise, but if the creator made 6 and had other paper things and wanted to play the game, well that's crossing the line (academic here because the scale of this dread is much larger).
CT GAMER wrote:...owning/using them has no effect on any LGS's profits...
That's grey.
Depends who you ask, making one from a cereal box at home, probably never on the radar. Making printable rhino patterns and distributing them on the internet... Here lie some of the major controversies of our day.
Also, did anyone else notice the UNPAINTED ORKS in the fake battlewagon image? See where the paper model tendency really leads, the nice stuff is the exception, it's just a lower standard in general, despite a few well crafted examples being used as justifications for the practice..
EDIT:
agnosto wrote:Most people don't start the day thinking thoughts like, "How will I cause the downfall of my FLGS or the company that makes the game I play?"
Most people don't get married thinking the divorce will be hard either.
The road to hell is paved with good intentions.
[1855 H. G. Bohn Hand-Book of Proverbs 514]
Howard A Treesong wrote:and I don't accept the worth of an argument based on violating IP and 'not supporting the community'.
Do you never play in stores? Do you never play in sanctioned events, demos, Hardboy, or tourneys? Do you really think there is no merit at all in seeing some of the money get back to the stores and company who created the ideas for every model you play with? Honestly I have a hard time believing you don't want to support the community in this way if you are even on these boards?
No. I've never played in a store or taken part in GW sanctioned tournaments. It doesn't fit my approach to the hobby, I play with friends and usually at one person's home or another. My local shop doesn't have gaming space but even when I've lived other places going to a shop of all places to play didn't appeal. I probably wouldn't be entirely welcome at GW events because I use other manufacturers models in my games. I'm primarily a modeller and concentrate on getting good armies for my own benefit, not getting involved in the politics of fielding a GW pure army or whatever, in private games you have freeddom to play how you like, I don't want to GW corporate rules on only using their models in their shops. I understand why they choose to do this on their premises and have no issue, it's just not for me.
Of course I see merit in money going back to stores and companies the make miniatures, but that's not totally incompatible with making a few scratchbuilds. I'm not up for people fielding rubbish, a paper/card model should look good, that is my criteria. The amount I've spent on the hobby in nearly 20 years means I've given a fair back to manufacturers and I support small manufacturers. I personally wouldn't bother scratch building a Rhino, but I would a titan. And if I never get around to it, well Forgeworld haven't been deprived a sale because there's no possibility of me buying one anyway.
Is there an issue with building a copy of something available, or building something that there is a kit for? I mean, seeing as there's a model of an Ork Stompa I assume you think it wrong to make a paper copy of it. Ok. But what about a stompa in a different shape? Is that ok because it doesn't look like the GW stompa, or wrong because you are scratchbuilding a model for which there is an official release? Not clear on that.
Howard A Treesong wrote:Are you seriously suggesting we're one individual that runs two accounts running up hundreds of posts each? That's a lot of work for a sock puppet. I'm sure a mod will be able to prove we operate from different IP addresses if you wish to pursue this paranoia.
A for thread-stalking, as far as I'm aware this is the only thread we share considerable participation in. I mean looking at his posting history he contributes a bit to the Make the Call section which is somewhere I almost never go mainly because I don't play current editions of the game.
daedalus wrote:
Or maybe they both live in the same time-zone, thus allowing them both to be online at approximately the same time, and they both happen to feel the same way?
Woah... what if I'm a sock puppet? How to I check?
Wow... thread was over after your points were irrevocably debunked. None of you have added to the arguement since you joined the thread and should be simply posting "+1" if youreally wish to increase your post counts.
Howard - My post about you being the same person was a joke I decided to post after I was PMd by a few members who thought it was a perculiar coincidence.
daedalus - thanks for stating obvious fact but otherwise not enhancing nor contributing to the arguements being discussed. *carefully folds daedalus and places him back in his nice, warm sock drawer*
And I will leave you with a catchy tune from 3rd grade music class: A round is a circle, a circle is round / Fits like a puzzle, as it goes round / Notes fly by like clouds in the sky / A round is a circle, a circle is round (sung by kids not yet at puberty and with a different group starting on the first verse whenever the first group gets to the next one)
This type of song is called, appropriately, a round, RiTides.
Bit like we used to sing London's Burning, but sadly not the Clash anthem coz they hadn't been invented yet I suppose you could do the same with that other well known kiddy song,
The Posts on a Thread go Round and Round.
) etc. etc. etc. but this current trend is sickening me.....
) and it looks like you're only talking about people who put no effort into it. But a good papercraft tank would be very hard to pull off, I think, given my very limited attempts at oragami... so if someone did it well I'd be all for it and then some!
Shoebox titan with a plastic dartgun scotch taped to the head for a cannon. Pro? >_> Wanted to stomp the gak.
costs more than a whirlwind. And you'd probably need 4.
- Get it? It's a copyright troll! Okay, so really more of a copyright ogre, but well, it was the best thing I could find in a 10 second google search. Kind of appropriate when you think about it.
. I think that can be summed up as the "rule of cool". And again, I bet 99% people actually agree with what you're saying- if it's rubbish, nobody wants to play against it, but if effort has been put in and it looks good, it's no problem (or even better).
