I know several Tau players in the making. The other day I got a glimpse at a thread (that I can't find again) about certain Tau stuff being under powered, or over priced or something of that nature. I faced Tau in 3rd as Guard and always had a problem dealing with them; their long ranged guns murdered my Guardsmen and their seeker missiles did good damage against my tanks. It was a nightmare. But now it doesn't seem to be the case. What's wrong with Tau?

M.

Infantryman wrote:I know several Tau players in the making. The other day I got a glimpse at a thread (that I can't find again) about certain Tau stuff being under powered, or over priced or something of that nature. I faced Tau in 3rd as Guard and always had a problem dealing with them; their long ranged guns murdered my Guardsmen and their seeker missiles did good damage against my tanks. It was a nightmare. But now it doesn't seem to be the case. What's wrong with Tau?

M.

3rd ed Tau ≠ 5th ed Tau.

5th ed Tau are underpowered compared to newer codexes, half their Wargear doesn't work and 80% of the units are worthless.

5th ed Tau are underpowered compared to newer codexes, half their Wargear doesn't work and 80% of the units are worthless.

Completely correct. All 5th edition codices are better then everything else (particularly Humans), and Tau do have some problems dealing with it. That being said, They do have some potential, and with a proper list and a real threat still. Fire Warriors can take down most infantry fairly easily, particularly with markerlights, crisis suits have 3+ armor and multiple wounds, Broadsides and Hammerheads can make short work of most vehicles, but you do have to watch for morale - Tau are one of the few races left that are not fearless or ignore morale.

Well they can to an extend with a ethernal but once he dies then you remember why you NEVER take him.

My mech list does okay against my friends Blood Ravens, CSM and Tau but I do not use them at their full potential (I forget my upgrades at certain times to my disadvantage - Played a whole game forgetting most of my things had BS +1 ¬,¬)

I think right now the Tau fit their fluff very well. That being that the only reason they still exsist is that the Imperium on Man has better things to do right now.

On a serious not, they are a bit underpowered right now, but if you play the right list and are a good player you can still win.

Some Tau units are still very good - Crisis Suits, Broadsides, Hammerheads, Pathfinders and Kroot. Problem is, they're the only good units, so every army you see consists of come mix of those five, plus a minimum squad of fire warriors to satisfy the restriction. As said, half their equipment doesn't work / doesn't work like it was intended, the fact that area terrain no longer blocks LOS makes JSJ much less effective, and cover saves all round makes railguns less scary than they used to be, even with AP1.

The Tau have a lot of issues currently. You can still play a good game and do very well with the right build, but the issue I had is that there is really only one good build currently, and you have to play it very well. Mech up and run suits. It gets boring playing the exact same way every game against every single opponent. The Tau really need a new codex with some new options.

I love the models and I love the fluff, I even enjoy the playstyle. I just hate having one good build to go off of. It can also be a hard army for newer players to win with.

Tau have some good units, and can play a good game. The main problem isn't with their units (they do have some pointles units but most have their uses) but with their FOC. All the good units are in the same slots and some slots have very little use (FA is useless).

4M2A wrote:Tau have some good units, and can play a good game. The main problem isn't with their units (they do have some pointles units but most have their uses) but with their FOC. All the good units are in the same slots and some slots have very little use (FA is useless).

This is an excellent point as well. Tau forces depend on heavy and elite choices. Fast attack, troops and HQ are more or less useless.

What makes the fire warriors bad? Mind I don't have a Tau codex handy so I have to pester you with stupid questions. I remember they were BS3, which gives them a roughly 50% hit chance, and they're S5 AP5, which hits hard for a basic trooper. They can even glance on a die roll of 5 against AV10 and penetrate on 6's; given they can be in squads of 12, they can do this. Just can't take enough, maybe?

M.

Infantryman wrote:What makes the fire warriors bad? Mind I don't have a Tau codex handy so I have to pester you with stupid questions. I remember they were BS3, which gives them a roughly 50% hit chance, and they're S5 AP5, which hits hard for a basic trooper. They can even glance on a die roll of 5 against AV10 and penetrate on 6's; given they can be in squads of 12, they can do this. Just can't take enough, maybe?

M.

While fire warriors can shoot 30"... moving pretty much reduces it back to 12". Thanks to the run rule and armies with lots and lots of deep strikes... you'll get at most 1-2 rounds of shooting (3 if someone botches their run rolls). After that... pray to the dice gods in hand to hand

Now, if Tau could just have a 15" Rapid Fire Range with Pulse Rifles, well, that would add you an extra round of shooting and make FoF a viable tactic again!

FoF? Fleet of Foot?

I thought they did go back to 15"; weird that they don't. I do suppose they get quite a lot of deep strike thrown at them if they're a bother - it's very common in 5th for some reason it seems.

Also, squads of 8-12 fire warriors with stats around a guardsman (last I saw) vs getting a whole platoon of guardsmen...

M.

FoF= Fish of Fury. xD

With a 15" Range it would be a lot more viable.

Alas, GW hates making things cool and unique now.

Melchiour wrote: It can also be a hard army for newer players to win with.

I am such a person. and the only person i have beaten was tau also...
not to cool.

I do love the models look and the fluff though

Ugh my tau regularly have to fight infantry guard hordes, something they can't do anything about since any markerlights I have tend to be gone by the guards first shooting phase. Also flamer suits are just suicide...

While against any meq army I have used my vespid to great effect, overall the tau army forces too much for so little gain.

I kinda like using them in kill team missions, otherwise I feel I know the outcome of the next battle.

juraigamer wrote:Ugh my tau regularly have to fight infantry guard hordes, something they can't do anything about since any markerlights I have tend to be gone by the guards first shooting phase. Also flamer suits are just suicide...

While against any meq army I have used my vespid to great effect, overall the tau army forces too much for so little gain.

I kinda like using them in kill team missions, otherwise I feel I know the outcome of the next battle.

I have the opposite problem. I do well against hordes but not MEQs.
Although I don't have vespids (ordered them but they never came through.)
My crisis suits with flamers do amazingly well against them.

as a new player to Tau, I feel like they can be gold vs mech armies (even with the new cover rules) you still can pack in the railguns. Suits with plasma for meq, and there seems to be enough firepower to go around for hordes.

what I can see being the problem with Tau is their poor Force organization options, allowing them to field relatively few of the models you'd want.

Lucid wrote:as a new player to Tau, I feel like they can be gold vs mech armies (even with the new cover rules) you still can pack in the railguns. Suits with plasma for meq, and there seems to be enough firepower to go around for hordes.

what I can see being the problem with Tau is their poor Force organization options, allowing them to field relatively few of the models you'd want.

I run a list of;
3 devilfish with 6 FW in each,
2 HHs (1 ion, 1 rail),
1 Broadside team of 2 (2 shield drones),
2 crisis team of 2 (Fusion blaster, multitracker,Plasma rifle in team 1, missile pods and twin linked flamers in team 2),
Sha'el who goes in team 1 or Dependant depending on the situation (Plasma Rifle, cyclic ion blaster, stimulant injector ,hardwired Multitracker,
Hardwired Drone Controller with 2 shield drones)

It runs really well against Nids, IG and some SM (Depending on build). But I have a large problem mainly with CSM and Orks.
If I thought anything I would say I need more FW, but I choose the tank upgrades over it.

Tau can still win, but its not as simple as veterans, chimeras and vendettas, or anything like that. Its difficult to build a good list with them, and even then a less experienced player will give you a run for his money. They just dont have the equipment to get the job done as well.

This is rather unfortunate, as I considered a Firewarrior/Pathfinder heavy force based around close order firefights, utilizing a lot of carbines and mecha suits.

M.

R we shore that we should have close range firefights?
another problem is that they do the most damage up close but never enough to finish them off before they slay them in CC

Yeah this is something I noticed while browsing the current codex at a FLGS. A lot of the weapons are no longer ranged than any other standard weapon, yet the Tau lack the CC backup to have a contingency plan. Their big mechs have a nice anti infantry gatling weapon that has what, 18"?

Maybe they should just drop the whole "can't do crap in CC" fluff and 2 WS. You can make them a non-CC faction simply by not providing them with much in the way of advanced CCW's - no power fists, no power weapons, etc.

M.

This issue has been extensively discussed.

Most Tau players would rather solve the problem of being bad at melee by changing the army to let it more easily avoid melee by mobility and better firepower.

For example, two easy rules changes:

1. Let the standard Pulse Rifle rapid fire at range 15.
2. Let Tau units retreat from melee rather than have to charge their whole unit in.

Yeah, if Tau were to become good in CC a lot of Tau players (including myself) would look for a new army. Making them good in CC is just watering down the armies theme, they would be just a second IG guard army.

Tau should be given ways to avoid CC not tools to win in melee.

If Tau ever become good in CC, I'd probably quit 40k all together. I play Tau to shoot people with advanced weapons, Not to be a 2 wound Space Marine(crisis suits).

Tau don't need a contingency plan that is as Thought out as "ok. I can hit the with my super advanced weapon like a baseball bat, so I'm going to"

Two things that would fix Tau IMO would be

1 Pulse Rifle RF range of 15
2 Cheaper Fire warriors and bigger squads of said Fire Warriors.

IF Tau get anything good at CC it needs to be a 0-1 choice at best. I completely agree with the people who say Tau need a way to AVOID CC better. This is what I have wanted to see.

flechette drone - When your unit is charged by an enemy the drone intercepts the charge sacrificing itself to save the unit. In game terms it would detach from the unit and take the assault, keeping the unit out of CC.

Making them WS3 on average and not giving them CC weapon configurations of some kind isn't going to make them good at CC at all.

M.

No but a lot of Tau players don't want Tau to be mediocre at CC we want them to be bad. I play Tau and think they could use an update to make them competitive but I still want them to die just as easy once they get caught in CC. Ok at CC is too good for Tau. They need to be on level with the cheapest horde troops when it comes to CC.

What Tau could really use is a cheap unit of all drones that have decent to good survivability and no attacking ability. And, give them some special rule about small size and being disposable, and let Tau shoot into a CC they're involved in.

That'd keep Tau really bad at CC (as they should be), but allow for some blocking ability to keep them out of CC as long as possible.

Firewarriors are not worthless: They have decent +4 saves, powerful weapons, excellent range. I have been using 5 x 6 man squads with varying success. If they get caught in a assault or wander into the sights of an assault cannon.....they die (although they dont always die as fast in CC...those +4 saves can pull you though a turn or two) but with that many Troop choices running around you can get 2-3 units to their objectives. KP can be a problem but this is war.

Try a 3 suit Firestorm squad (BC and MissilePod with MultiTracker)....that is 9 St5 and 6 St7 shots (at 18in) into a mob of Guardsman, nids, Orkses a turn.

Try a 3 suit Helios squad (FB, Plasma Rifle, and Multitracker)....this will destroy MEQs and there is no Gets hot with this plasma....wounding on 2s without Armor saves....(possible cover saves apply) that is 2-3 MEQs a turn....(Mathhammer will prove me wrong on that but.....)

I run 2 Shas'el commanders now and this has expanded my game greatly. Two powerful Crisis suits running around independently and killing what they shoot at....excellent.

And i cannot stress enough.....SHIELD DRONES!....expensive yes but they have saved many of my suits from Turn 1-2 deaths from Lascannons/missiles.....what is their weakness is multiple low strength shots.....

FA slots are definately weak...Deep Striking Drone Squads are dangerous when attacking rear armor on Tanks....
......I bought a few of the new Forge World Hazard Suits....but that option is not available to all.....

Railguns kill everything on the table....get as many as you can....

I keep Markerlights out of my army. (Most will say this is crazy but....i have not needed them, ill take them when i can fit a Skyray or a Sniper Group......they do assist and Seekermissiles are great but i do not go out of my way to use them.......)

Grakmar wrote:What Tau could really use is a cheap unit of all drones that have decent to good survivability and no attacking ability. And, give them some special rule about small size and being disposable, and let Tau shoot into a CC they're involved in.

That'd keep Tau really bad at CC (as they should be), but allow for some blocking ability to keep them out of CC as long as possible.

Actually have to agree with that one,

Something WS1, BS0, S1, T4, W1, I1, A1, LD10, 4+/5++: Stubborn

Also the whole Drones counting as units for Ld. rolls or CC casualties needs to be removed.....they are drones...they are there for dying.

While most of the changes suggested here are new, I personally believe they just need a generic update. Simple things changed, like ALL drones count as jet pack, so even marker drones attached to fire warriors can fire a markerlight every turn, or the Command & Control mode lets the leadership bonus apply for everything, not just target priority (which no longer exists). That kind of thing. Maybe some price tweaks and removal of 0-1 or 1+ units, as other codexes have gotten when going from 4-5th ed.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Shrike325 wrote:

Grakmar wrote:What Tau could really use is a cheap unit of all drones that have decent to good survivability and no attacking ability. And, give them some special rule about small size and being disposable, and let Tau shoot into a CC they're involved in.

That'd keep Tau really bad at CC (as they should be), but allow for some blocking ability to keep them out of CC as long as possible.

Actually have to agree with that one,

Something WS1, BS0, S1, T4, W1, I1, A1, LD10, 4+/5++: Stubborn

An experimental rule I came up with a while ago is that when shooting into close combat, you can only shoot at BS3 if yours is normally higher. All shots that miss are instead counted as hits upon your own troops. For each hit, wound, or unsaved wound (not sure what'd be the fairest), -1 leadership for the shooting squad for the next turn.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Melchiour wrote:IF Tau get anything good at CC it needs to be a 0-1 choice at best. I completely agree with the people who say Tau need a way to AVOID CC better. This is what I have wanted to see.

flechette drone - When your unit is charged by an enemy the drone intercepts the charge sacrificing itself to save the unit. In game terms it would detach from the unit and take the assault, keeping the unit out of CC.

Possibly some type of failsafe detonator for a "sergeant" of fire warriors, works even if he dies, or something like that?

Agreed on the drones not counting for Ld checks. Should Fire Warriors get a price reduction? They don't seem to "feel" like they're worth 10 points each. And shouldn't the Devilfish be less than 80?

What if instead of WS2 S3 they were WS3 S2? Or if their Strength was reduced to 2 and they got a points drop. I read "Fire Warrior" some years back, and IIRC they did get rigorous hand to hand training. Something about fighting with the bonding knife, wasn't it?

Additionally, on the subject of Fast Attack, are those Piranha worth anything? They look nifty.

M.

Infantryman wrote:Agreed on the drones not counting for Ld checks. Should Fire Warriors get a price reduction? They don't seem to "feel" like they're worth 10 points each. And shouldn't the Devilfish be less than 80?

What if instead of WS2 S3 they were WS3 S2? Or if their Strength was reduced to 2 and they got a points drop. I read "Fire Warrior" some years back, and IIRC they did get rigorous hand to hand training. Something about fighting with the bonding knife, wasn't it?

Additionally, on the subject of Fast Attack, are those Piranha worth anything?

I've lectured extensively upon the Dfish, and my previous point about a general update applies to them. In short: better armor, better guns, better transport capacity, more mobile ("skimmer") than a rhino. Only thing rhino has going for it is 2 shooting points. Now, in 4th ed, fishes were a steal at 80 points, as a rhino was 115 (IIRC). Now, with a rhino only costing 35 points, the devilfish is very overpriced. Maybe 40-50 for one.

I have used Pirahna in the past with poor results. I just cant seem to get them close enough to get the Fusion Blaster close enough for a hit.

Firewarriors.....i think 10pt is fair.....but they should have "Veteran" like upgrades....or Troop choices. How about BS4 Veteran FWs...make them 12 pts or something

Devilfish are very expensive for its (lack of) abilities. I also play IG and you can have a Chimera with a Multilaser, Heavy Flamer, Hunter Killer Missile and its passengers can shoot out of it for 65pts!! They should be 50 pts and then add on standard Tau upgrades.....(I have ran the Warfish variety by adding a Smart missile system and disruption pod....but that makes an already expensive APC almost too much (120pts i think)

Also making the "Defensive" weapons limit at St4 nerfed Tau Tanks big time.....

micahaphone: Do you have a dedicated thread for it or did I miss it in one of your posts?

Maybe FW need some kind of support weaponry? That Neutron Blaster seems like it'd be kinda beefy, and it's Assault so it fits in with the "no heavy weapon" theme they seem to have going for their bloody infantry. Short range, sure, but that's the only thing I could think of in their armory. Flamers maybe?

M.

They have flamers. They were one of the first (that I know of) with Twin Linked Flamers.

Sorry, I meant for the Fire Warrior squads.

M.

Ah. Ok. wait why?

A flamer means we have to be that close to use it. I'd be happy with 15 Inch RF range because it means I'm farther away from the big bad Space marine that wants to feed my Poor Fire Warrior the business end of his Pulse Rifle.

Yeah, probably not the greatest idea but I was just throwing out the "Support Weapon for FW squads" idea more than actually suggesting something.

M.

Gwar! wrote:

Infantryman wrote:I know several Tau players in the making. The other day I got a glimpse at a thread (that I can't find again) about certain Tau stuff being under powered, or over priced or something of that nature. I faced Tau in 3rd as Guard and always had a problem dealing with them; their long ranged guns murdered my Guardsmen and their seeker missiles did good damage against my tanks. It was a nightmare. But now it doesn't seem to be the case. What's wrong with Tau?

M.

3rd ed Tau ≠ 5th ed Tau.

5th ed Tau are underpowered compared to newer codexes, half their Wargear doesn't work and 80% of the units are worthless.

Correct. Railgun broadsides are still good, but apparently that's one of the only perks to the codex. Tau sucks at swarm, and gets destroyed by basically everything. Terrible army, terrible fluff.

this thread quickly delved into tau wishlishing/debating about the next update

Dogface 76 wrote:Firewarriors are not worthless: They have decent +4 saves, powerful weapons, excellent range. I have been using 5 x 6 man squads with varying success. If they get caught in a assault or wander into the sights of an assault cannon.....they die (although they dont always die as fast in CC...those +4 saves can pull you though a turn or two) but with that many Troop choices running around you can get 2-3 units to their objectives. KP can be a problem but this is war.

Try a 3 suit Firestorm squad (BC and MissilePod with MultiTracker)....that is 9 St5 and 6 St7 shots (at 18in) into a mob of Guardsman, nids, Orkses a turn.

Try a 3 suit Helios squad (FB, Plasma Rifle, and Multitracker)....this will destroy MEQs and there is no Gets hot with this plasma....wounding on 2s without Armor saves....(possible cover saves apply) that is 2-3 MEQs a turn....(Mathhammer will prove me wrong on that but.....)

I run 2 Shas'el commanders now and this has expanded my game greatly. Two powerful Crisis suits running around independently and killing what they shoot at....excellent.

And i cannot stress enough.....SHIELD DRONES!....expensive yes but they have saved many of my suits from Turn 1-2 deaths from Lascannons/missiles.....what is their weakness is multiple low strength shots.....

FA slots are definately weak...Deep Striking Drone Squads are dangerous when attacking rear armor on Tanks....
......I bought a few of the new Forge World Hazard Suits....but that option is not available to all.....

Railguns kill everything on the table....get as many as you can....

I keep Markerlights out of my army. (Most will say this is crazy but....i have not needed them, ill take them when i can fit a Skyray or a Sniper Group......they do assist and Seekermissiles are great but i do not go out of my way to use them.......)

Any chance i can see your list ?? im always looking for new tau builds

I dont know where i got this idea but i thorght it would be cool if devilfishs or somethin could get these big shields on them. work like gungan shields on starwars. hide the fire warrors inside with a 4+ save or something so they can hide from long range fire but after enemy units enter the shield area they arent protected.

Ledabot wrote:I dont know where i got this idea but i thorght it would be cool if devilfishs or somethin could get these big shields on them. work like gungan shields on starwars. hide the fire warrors inside with a 4+ save or something so they can hide from long range fire but after enemy units enter the shield area they arent protected.

Disruption Pod. Counts as a Obstructed target if firing from 12" away. So a 4+ cover save constantly long distance from fire. Works very very well for me.
Lol I never accounted them to gungan shields before. Good comparison man.

Infantryman wrote:Yeah this is something I noticed while browsing the current codex at a FLGS. A lot of the weapons are no longer ranged than any other standard weapon, yet the Tau lack the CC backup to have a contingency plan. Their big mechs have a nice anti infantry gatling weapon that has what, 18"?

have you ever noticedd that pulse blasters are just realy big pulse carbines. all the same stats sept for As1 and As3

Infantryman wrote:Making them WS3 on average and not giving them CC weapon configurations of some kind isn't going to make them good at CC at all.

Yup. the Ws3 is so wrong for a shooty army

As a Tau player with 4500 points in boxes gathering dust, I feel pretty strongly about this issue. As yet I've not seen any solution that doesn't turn our beloved army into Space Marine clones with railguns.

I don't want to be tough as nails or good in combat.

I want to play like Tau. To that end I think I could fix the Tau with three force-wide USRs: Relentless, Defensive Grenades and Hit and Run.

Relentless gives them the chance to keep moving and firing. Pulse rifles become gak-hot, but no more powerful or accurate. Markerlights become our best friend. Fluff-wise, Tau tech includes advanced stabilisers and targetting kit, allowing them to fire on the move.

Defensive Grenades means people don't get a bonus for attacking. Our technology doesn't make us strong, but it takes away some of your advantage.

HIt and Run represents the Tau's willingness to give up ground they can't hold. So Fire Warriors can drop out of 1 in 3 combats, Kroot more so, suits about half the time.

None of these are game changing, but they give us back an edge without overpowering us and - crucially - they make us play like the stories suggest we should.

syanticraven wrote:

Ledabot wrote:I dont know where i got this idea but i thorght it would be cool if devilfishs or somethin could get these big shields on them. work like gungan shields on starwars. hide the fire warrors inside with a 4+ save or something so they can hide from long range fire but after enemy units enter the shield area they arent protected.

Disruption Pod. Counts as a Obstructed target if firing from 12" away. So a 4+ cover save constantly long distance from fire. Works very very well for me.
Lol I never accounted them to gungan shields before. Good comparison man.

ya kinda what i ment.
i was thinking if it could protect any units close by also....(maniacal laughing).......
disruption pods give cover saves but a big shield would give invulnerable saves

Ledabot wrote:

syanticraven wrote:

Ledabot wrote:I dont know where i got this idea but i thorght it would be cool if devilfishs or somethin could get these big shields on them. work like gungan shields on starwars. hide the fire warrors inside with a 4+ save or something so they can hide from long range fire but after enemy units enter the shield area they arent protected.

Disruption Pod. Counts as a Obstructed target if firing from 12" away. So a 4+ cover save constantly long distance from fire. Works very very well for me.
Lol I never accounted them to gungan shields before. Good comparison man.

ya kinda what i ment.
i was thinking if it could protect any units close by also....(maniacal laughing).......
disruption pods give cover saves but a big shield would give invulnerable saves

There is precedent for it. Ork KFFs give a 5+ cover save and 4+ obscured save to anything within 6".

Indeed, there's an Apocalypse datasheet for a Tau Pathfinder Devilfish with stealth field generator that extends out past the transport...

Miraclefish wrote:

Ledabot wrote:

syanticraven wrote:

Ledabot wrote:I dont know where i got this idea but i thorght it would be cool if devilfishs or somethin could get these big shields on them. work like gungan shields on starwars. hide the fire warrors inside with a 4+ save or something so they can hide from long range fire but after enemy units enter the shield area they arent protected.

Disruption Pod. Counts as a Obstructed target if firing from 12" away. So a 4+ cover save constantly long distance from fire. Works very very well for me.
Lol I never accounted them to gungan shields before. Good comparison man.

ya kinda what i ment.
i was thinking if it could protect any units close by also....(maniacal laughing).......
disruption pods give cover saves but a big shield would give invulnerable saves

There is precedent for it. Ork KFFs give a 5+ cover save and 4+ obscured save to anything within 6".

Indeed, there's an Apocalypse datasheet for a Tau Pathfinder Devilfish with stealth field generator that extends out past the transport...

i expect that a tau shield would do more than anything a ork shield could do.

Ledabot wrote:i expect that a tau shield would do more than anything a ork shield could do.

Ork technology is incredibly powerful (when it functions) because they're more than happy to risk turning the universe inside out or causing a supernova if it'll make a loud noise. The Tau tend to try not to kill half their army to "see 'ow dis device works"...

But I was merely referring to the in-game precedent rather than the level of tech.

Miraclefish wrote:

Ledabot wrote:i expect that a tau shield would do more than anything a ork shield could do.

Ork technology is incredibly powerful (when it functions) because they're more than happy to risk turning the universe inside out or causing a supernova if it'll make a loud noise. The Tau tend to try not to kill half their army to "see 'ow dis device works"...

But I was merely referring to the in-game precedent rather than the level of tech.

dident mean to offend (if i did). I sopose i sterotype orks as being dumb disorginsed psychotic humanoids, kinda makes me wonder how they managed to get space level tech in the first place.

Ledabot wrote:

Miraclefish wrote:

Ledabot wrote:i expect that a tau shield would do more than anything a ork shield could do.

Ork technology is incredibly powerful (when it functions) because they're more than happy to risk turning the universe inside out or causing a supernova if it'll make a loud noise. The Tau tend to try not to kill half their army to "see 'ow dis device works"...

But I was merely referring to the in-game precedent rather than the level of tech.

dident mean to offend (if i did). I sopose i sterotype orks as being dumb disorginsed psychotic humanoids, kinda makes me wonder how they managed to get space level tech in the first place.

Not offended in the least fella!

And Orks do it because they 1) steal other people's tech (hell - they even looted their language, Orkish is low Gothic wiv sum changes 'cos it's eazier dan makin ur own wordz up) and 2) genuinely don't give two hoots about their own safety.

When Orks attack a planet, they don't use landing craft, they use Roks. They hollow out asteroids, fit atmosphere generators and two sets of rocket boosters. One set sends them hurtling towards the planet. The other kicks in to slow the landing. When it crunches into the ground, the surviving ones get out and go killin' stuff.

Of course being Ork tech a lot of the time the second set don't work and the Rok smashes into the planet with the force of a small atomic warhead.

Which, in the words of the Ork Codex, 'is almost as good as landing. And it makes a better noise.'

Miraclefish wrote:

Ledabot wrote:

Miraclefish wrote:

Ledabot wrote:i expect that a tau shield would do more than anything a ork shield could do.

Ork technology is incredibly powerful (when it functions) because they're more than happy to risk turning the universe inside out or causing a supernova if it'll make a loud noise. The Tau tend to try not to kill half their army to "see 'ow dis device works"...

But I was merely referring to the in-game precedent rather than the level of tech.

dident mean to offend (if i did). I sopose i sterotype orks as being dumb disorginsed psychotic humanoids, kinda makes me wonder how they managed to get space level tech in the first place.

Not offended in the least fella!

And Orks do it because they 1) steal other people's tech (hell - they even looted their language, Orkish is low Gothic wiv sum changes 'cos it's eazier dan makin ur own wordz up) and 2) genuinely don't give two hoots about their own safety.

When Orks attack a planet, they don't use landing craft, they use Roks. They hollow out asteroids, fit atmosphere generators and two sets of rocket boosters. One set sends them hurtling towards the planet. The other kicks in to slow the landing. When it crunches into the ground, the surviving ones get out and go killin' stuff.

Of course being Ork tech a lot of the time the second set don't work and the Rok smashes into the planet with the force of a small atomic warhead.

Which, in the words of the Ork Codex, 'is almost as good as landing. And it makes a better noise.'

lol. I wonder how may smart orks there are. they must be fairly minority.
back on discussion if GW was cool they would have thought that tau would make some kinda big shield that lets them sit back and pummal the enemy from long range. they would be great for FW if they had some kinda long range heavy weapons.
if it could be attached to a dedecated battlesuit type thing it would be cool as.

a Deployable shield would be cool that produces something like a 4/5++ but once failed it is gone. (like the shoot has just overloaded the shield and it breaks- like the Dark Eldar one)

Would be kinda cool I think and a feasible idea.

syanticraven wrote:a Deployable shield would be cool that produces something like a 4/5++ but once failed it is gone. (like the shoot has just overloaded the shield and it breaks- like the Dark Eldar one)

Would be kinda cool I think and a feasible idea.

could be considered a hevay weapon so that set up time is taken in to account

Ledabot wrote:

syanticraven wrote:a Deployable shield would be cool that produces something like a 4/5++ but once failed it is gone. (like the shoot has just overloaded the shield and it breaks- like the Dark Eldar one)

Would be kinda cool I think and a feasible idea.

could be considered a hevay weapon so that set up time is taken in to account

For that I would make it a 4++
But what radius would it be if anything, a small marker template for multiple? or for more points and one per army, a large one?

syanticraven wrote:

Ledabot wrote:

syanticraven wrote:a Deployable shield would be cool that produces something like a 4/5++ but once failed it is gone. (like the shoot has just overloaded the shield and it breaks- like the Dark Eldar one)

Would be kinda cool I think and a feasible idea.

could be considered a hevay weapon so that set up time is taken in to account

For that I would make it a 4++
But what radius would it be if anything, a small marker template for multiple? or for more points and one per army, a large one?

I would make it a large template on top of the shielding unit. that would give enough space for a fire warror unit to fit inside. could make it special issue or something. one of the equipment choises for a commander. It would be expensive thu. like 30+ pts.

A better mechanic IMO would be something like the KFF, but the unit with it have to choose between having the shield up or doing anything that turn (i.e. Moving, Shooting, Running, Assaulting etc means no shield).

In all honesty, just having something to get the hell away from combat would do me fine. I can deal with being shot down. Just means I have been out gunned.

Maybe something like a flash grenade that allows you d6" retreat before a charge is resolved?

syanticraven wrote:In all honesty, just having something to get the hell away from combat would do me fine. I can deal with being shot down. Just means I have been out gunned.

Maybe something like a flash grenade that allows you d6" retreat before a charge is resolved?

It would be cool if VRT could be used all the time, extending moving distance in the movement phase or something

How about boosting defensive grenades?

Gwar! wrote:How about boosting defensive grenades?

where did the boosting part come from?

Ledabot wrote:

Gwar! wrote:How about boosting defensive grenades?

where did the boosting part come from?

It boosts our chances of firing more before they get to us.
What annoys me is that I can get out my Dfish, rapid fire...then die. I dont want that to happen. I want to be able to run the hell away on my next turn or fire some more.
But it is a good idea. Although I do not know how fluff wise it could make the terrain difficult? Maybe a sonic blast that shatters the ground layers making them unstable, or turns it to a wet sand like substance.

In fact even a flechette discharger, or a weaker version of it might do.

syanticraven wrote:In fact even a flechette discharger, or a weaker version of it might do.

i think someone said something about flechette drones. those would work

how about upgrading the shield drone to a true shield... you know like thosefences from apoc that you have to destroy before you can assault through.

Personally I would be happy with a base BS of 4 (yes that seems a bit OP but we aren't going to kill anything in combat), and hit and run on crisis suits.

4M2A wrote:Personally I would be happy with a base BS of 4 (yes that seems a bit OP but we aren't going to kill anything in combat), and hit and run on crisis suits.

BS 4 OP? I don't think so at all. That would be perfectly acceptable. Marines have it, why wouldn't tau? They're like 11 points for basically a slightly better guardsman. They should get something for their cost.

Etheral gets BS4 Fire Warriors for like 12 points. I'd be happy if all Fire Warriors cost 12 points for BS4. I would be More that Happy. Almost bordering on Aroused. Almost.

Im surprised that they never gave the Tau a good CC option. Sure the basic troops are meant to suck at it, and in general the army avoids it. However Id think someone as intelligent and techy as the Tau would create something to address this obvious problem.

I was thinking something along the lines of a bulked up XV 15/25 suit or a version of Shadowsuns armor. Change the big guns on the arms of that suit out for a couple powerfist type weapons with integrated carbines. Make it a 0-1 elite choice with a squad of 3-5.

Close Combat is against thier COmbat Doctrine and they see it as Primitive. Not saying a Shas'ui Pathfinder never bashed a Space Marine's Head open with rebar or something, but they look down on it. Also, we have a Close Combat Option. His name is Shas'O Vior'la Shovah Kais Mont'yr, or as the Imperials know him, Commander Farsight.

Hehe, Shovah. The stargate geek in me giggled.

BS4 wouldn't be too terrible. Aren't they supposed to be highly trained anyways? A guardsman learns close order drill AND shooting; in the same time a Tau just focuses on shooting. Should have a better skill or something.

Also, what if their squads got a designated marksman? He uses the standard rifle but for a points upgrade he can opt to take a single shot at farther than normal range, or at normal range with a bonus to hit or wound. Kinda like a pseudo sniper. Maybe that's only an option if the squad didn't move, leaving him with the option to use the rifle as a regular Pulse Rifle if the squad did move. Fits their "long range fire" doctrine well enough.

M.

Also, Isn't the Xv9 supposed to be the Tau Answer to Close Combat? I remember downloading the PDF for it when it first came out (Back when it was 2 Twin Linked Burst Cannons). It didn't just rock( or was even decent) in close Combat, but it was tough enough to survive (unless attacked by a Mob or a Squad of Close Combat Specialists) and had ways to get out of it. It was made for Close Quarters Combat, but not actual bashing someone in the head.

The main issue I have with Tau is that so much of their codex is trash. Have you ever tried to run a skyray? Well, if you haven't, don't! The FA FOC Slots are worthless, unless you really want pathfinders (I find that they die too quickly, and their inability to split markerlight fire among different targets handicaps them. Plus, they MUST take devilfish transports, which drives up the cost. My other issues:
1. Pulse Rifle should rapid fire 15"
2. Stealth suits should NOT be elites. Not only are they far overpriced, but they compete directly with the far, far superior crisis suits. Maybe they can go to Fast Attack so that there's something halfway good in that slot.
3. As far Fire Warriors, I think that people underrate them. At 10 points/model, they are available cheaper given they have a S5, AP5 weapon. A larger squad cap (maybe 16) might be useful, especially if the devilfish's capacity was increased. 4+ Armor isn't terrible either, although T3 does hurt.
4. I am yet to fight an enemy that is actually vulnerable to morale. Meanwhile, fearless ork hordes nearly make my command squad run off the board. Seriously, it's obnoxious. What's the point of morale if 90% of armies are fearless or pass automatically. Plus, it makes Pulse Carbines triply useless (pinning a fearless enemy doesn't work).
On a final note, Tau should continue to suck at CC, possibly more than they do now. Fighting as Tau I actually have won several assaults vs. Space Wolves. It's just not right that Fire Warrior Teams were massacring Grey Hunters. Just not right.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Whoops, guess I'm the noob who didn't notice that the topic went past page 1. My bad.

Skyrays are fun, Stealthsuits should be fast Attacks.

The skyray comes with two markerlights anyway. Combind that with the pathfinders and you could be firing two seekers a turn inless you use the markerlight points otherwise

Hi All

I don't play tau but have considered them as second army from what your all saying i'm glad i decided to wait until a new dex comes out.

Sorry if this is a stupid question but wouldn't it make sense to make the kroot better in cc? I mean if i remember my fluff right isn't that why the tau keep them around but from what i remember their stats suck.

I always found the skyray pretty useful, it never let me down in a game I used it in, it may only have 6 missiles but they are powerful things. If I get 1 off on my first markerlight then the next one (and the pathfinders) go to make sure a tank dies.

Iur_tae_mont wrote:Close Combat is against thier COmbat Doctrine and they see it as Primitive. Not saying a Shas'ui Pathfinder never bashed a Space Marine's Head open with rebar or something, but they look down on it. Also, we have a Close Combat Option. His name is Shas'O Vior'la Shovah Kais Mont'yr, or as the Imperials know him, Commander Farsight.

Theres also kroot, they hurt in combat. 3str4 attacks on the charge half at I 5 if you take hounds.... yeah we DO have a good CC option.

Kroot aren't Tau, They are auxiliary.

I run a Kroot blob, with Hounds, shapers, and Regular Kroot, just because the blob is about 130 points with 65 attacks on the charge. What's not to like about 1 attack every 2 points? But they have average LD and (unless you pay extra, and even then unless you fight alot of guard, you won't have the Save anywhere than CC) no Armor save.

The problem is Kroot are easy to kill before combat and Tau are easy to kill in combat.

It is a balanced system in theory, you run around with tau and the attack with the kroot but due to the current meta game that theory doesnt work very well.

However on the charge they are pretty great, then on the attacks back, you hope their is nothing left to attack back

yeah the T3 and no save hurts but being a troop and putting them in some woods makes them excellent objective holders.

But every turn they are hunkered on that Objective is a turn They could be gutting Guardsmen. Also Trees are not on every battlefield.

Iur_tae_mont wrote:But every turn they are hunkered on that Objective is a turn They could be gutting Guardsmen. Also Trees are not on every battlefield.

They are if you are good at cheating. Lol But that is the reason I do not take kroot.

Kroot+trees=
kroot-trees =

i have nothing 2 say....ironically enough...within the past 3 pages, all my thoughts have been expressed.....(itz so funny 2 realize that there are people in the world with an IQ higher than 5) (n i dont mean that as an insult....if you all had met my wife n her family, ud understand...)


Automatically Appended Next Post:
but i really do have problems using my tau...then again, i know that itz because i only have 2 crisis suits, 3 stealth suits, 1 aun'shi model that i cant even use anymore, 2 broadsides, a hammerhead, 24 FWz, and 18 kroot, 2 shapers, and 4 hounds....i need more stuff....

Ledabot wrote:Kroot+trees=
kroot-trees =

Kroot+Trees+Falling Flat = DAMNIT WHY DID I NOT BRING FLAMERS!!!!!!!!

o...i know how 2 mkae pathfinders useful....the trick is kepping them alive long enough....slap 2 marker drones on the vet...and give them rail rifles....that should make them a lil better....(then again, 1 good blast and there ass is grass)

I always thought it could be cool for suits if they had a special rule that when they are assaulted, they roll a d6 and on a result of 5+ (adding 1 to their result for each suit in the squad) they are able to move 6" away, but must sacrifice one member of the squad- you know, for the greater good.

A Kroot special character with psyker powers or that offers psych defense, from a diet of warp powered mind warriors!

Marker lights being a more common upgrade option, or pathfinders not being quite as squishy.

Making ethereals more useful, espescially considering the drawback when they die- possibly a super suit.

Tau are imo one of the codices that have a lot of unrealized potential- hopefully their 5e update gives them at least a better taste of it.

Giving a crisis suit model a hit and run rule upgrade at 10pts that takes up a hard point? (possibly add 'only use once' rule for and slightly lower cost -7pts)

(based on vectored retro-thrusters)

Gwar! wrote:

Infantryman wrote:I know several Tau players in the making. The other day I got a glimpse at a thread (that I can't find again) about certain Tau stuff being under powered, or over priced or something of that nature. I faced Tau in 3rd as Guard and always had a problem dealing with them; their long ranged guns murdered my Guardsmen and their seeker missiles did good damage against my tanks. It was a nightmare. But now it doesn't seem to be the case. What's wrong with Tau?

M.

3rd ed Tau ≠ 5th ed Tau.

5th ed Tau are underpowered compared to newer codexes, half their Wargear doesn't work and 80% of the units are worthless.

Same could be said about Necrons and Sisters/Knights also.

Farmer wrote:

Gwar! wrote:

Infantryman wrote:I know several Tau players in the making. The other day I got a glimpse at a thread (that I can't find again) about certain Tau stuff being under powered, or over priced or something of that nature. I faced Tau in 3rd as Guard and always had a problem dealing with them; their long ranged guns murdered my Guardsmen and their seeker missiles did good damage against my tanks. It was a nightmare. But now it doesn't seem to be the case. What's wrong with Tau?

M.

3rd ed Tau ≠ 5th ed Tau.

5th ed Tau are underpowered compared to newer codexes, half their Wargear doesn't work and 80% of the units are worthless.

Same could be said about Necrons and Sisters/Knights also.

Except that Necrons have a few good Builds (Dash is winning with them ), Sisters also have a Few Good Builds. Knights notsomuch. Tau are just rubbish (and I am not totally bias in any way against a new unwanted race that got close to 6 times the codex material in 4 years than my Puppies did in 10 and my Delfdars in 12. -Grumble-

Gwar! wrote:

Farmer wrote:

Gwar! wrote:

Infantryman wrote:I know several Tau players in the making. The other day I got a glimpse at a thread (that I can't find again) about certain Tau stuff being under powered, or over priced or something of that nature. I faced Tau in 3rd as Guard and always had a problem dealing with them; their long ranged guns murdered my Guardsmen and their seeker missiles did good damage against my tanks. It was a nightmare. But now it doesn't seem to be the case. What's wrong with Tau?

M.

3rd ed Tau ≠ 5th ed Tau.

5th ed Tau are underpowered compared to newer codexes, half their Wargear doesn't work and 80% of the units are worthless.

Same could be said about Necrons and Sisters/Knights also.

Except that Necrons have a few good Builds (Dash is winning with them ), Sisters also have a Few Good Builds. Knights notsomuch. Tau are just rubbish (and I am not totally bias in any way against a new unwanted race that got close to 6 times the codex material in 4 years than my Puppies did in 10 and my Delfdars in 12. -Grumble-

I'd say Tau and Necrons have decent builds but are hardly going to cut it in tournaments.

Pfft people always hate change. Plus I want them and I'm Scotlands most important guy. Im the token ginger.
You do know there is only 1 ginger person in Scotland? I am just that damn good at disguises.

In firendly games Tau play better than crons, but when you want to make crons competitive you can whereas Tau don't stand much chance.

if tau are supposed 2 be ever evolving, then wtf is takin so long with our codex?

4M2A wrote:In firendly games Tau play better than crons, but when you want to make crons competitive you can whereas Tau don't stand much chance.

Necrons > Tau though...

krato123 wrote:if tau are supposed 2 be ever evolving, then wtf is takin so long with our codex?

Dark Eldar waited 12 years I think you can wait another 1.

i got wasted when i played necrons. knowing how they worked might of helped. Stuped telporting thing....

SpankHammer III wrote:Hi All

I don't play tau but have considered them as second army from what your all saying i'm glad i decided to wait until a new dex comes out.

Sorry if this is a stupid question but wouldn't it make sense to make the kroot better in cc? I mean if i remember my fluff right isn't that why the tau keep them around but from what i remember their stats suck.

Fluff-wise the Tau keep Kroot around because together they fought a war against the Orks, and Kroot are good at jungly stuff (unlike Stealth Suits, which obviously are crap at hiding in cover and aren't equipped with high power, short range weapons).

Kroot are significantly superior to Tau in melee, due to their extra WS, S, T and I, and bonus attack, but their lack of power weapons, armour and morale, makes them not that much better than IG when comparing to other armies.

The Fluff says Tau only make use of alien talents to complement the Tau, i.e. do things they aren't good at but need doing, but they don't recruit aliens to do things like melee which need doing, and they aren't good at, but they think are stupid. I know it doesn't make sense on any level, but that's GW for you.

The GW theory is that Tau view melee as primitive and stupid (which it is -- it's only the rules that make it work in 40K) so Tau aren't interested in improving any of their melee skills.

In my opinion this would not matter if the Tau were allowed to avoid melee, and were given better mobility and firepower.

Interesting take on the Tau, Kilkrazy. I like it, but it isn't crazy enough!

Perhaps the Tau are actually somewhat aware of our reality and can use logic to determine what should and shouldn't work in modern (let alone futuristic) warfare.

But, they're blocked (perhaps by the agents of Chaos, maybe by a concentrated psychic attack) from realizing that they are in fact part of a game, and, as such, can't figure out why things don't work the way they should.

That would explain why they struggle so much at shooting despite being a shooty army, many of the models are actually trying to split their fire, but some mystical force keeps preventing them from doing so. And, they refuse to use CC troops, because they know their weaponry has plenty of range to take out anything before it gets close. They just can't understand why the enemy suddenly appears only a foot or two away from them.

Fleet of...foot hoof thing for Tau in 5th?

M.

Infantryman wrote:Fleet of...foot hoof thing for Tau in 5th?

M.

Why? What would running, then assaulting do for a ranged army? (I'm sorry, that's what "Fleet of..." does, right?)

IF anything, Fire Warrior should have an option to take Jetpacks. JSJ Fire Warriors!

Iur_tae_mont wrote:IF anything, Fire Warrior should have an option to take Jetpacks. JSJ Fire Warriors!

That..would be awesome! pity GW would never think of it.

Awesome and somewhat game breaking I think.

I would rather the Elites/tanks/transports got the kind of upgrade needed but the FW remained the same. They are good enough.

well theres always the stand and shoot order from fantasy, simplify it down and give it to firewarrior and let them forgoe their CC attacks ad let the shooting count as their casualties.

What's that? oh your assaulting my tau with your marines.... well my tau have guns and use them at an initiative of OVER 9000!!!!!!!!!!!!! Eat 24 str 5 shots.

TheRedArmy wrote:

5th ed Tau are underpowered compared to newer codexes, half their Wargear doesn't work and 80% of the units are worthless.

Completely correct. All 5th edition codices are better then everything else (particularly Humans), and Tau do have some problems dealing with it. That being said, They do have some potential, and with a proper list and a real threat still. Fire Warriors can take down most infantry fairly easily, particularly with markerlights, crisis suits have 3+ armor and multiple wounds, Broadsides and Hammerheads can make short work of most vehicles, but you do have to watch for morale - Tau are one of the few races left that are not fearless or ignore morale.

Summed it up. They are supposed to get a new dex next year, I'd say build a small army and shelve em... or play opponents playing more balanced (read Not op) armies. Things like Space Wolves, new nids, and BA just eat tau something fierce

gendoikari87 wrote:well theres always the stand and shoot order from fantasy, simplify it down and give it to firewarrior and let them forgoe their CC attacks ad let the shooting count as their casualties.

What's that? oh your assaulting my tau with your marines.... well my tau have guns and use them at an initiative of OVER 9000!!!!!!!!!!!!! Eat 24 str 5 shots.

See I always wondered why this rule doesnt actually exist, surely it would be more tactically sound to let a shooting thing do its job, its not going to live or have a chance to kill if its pulls out a knife but if it gets in that last shot or 2 it could decide everything.

Quite right on Fleet; I had forgotten it was different. Well, how about a bonus to their movement speed or something?

M.

gendoikari87 wrote:well theres always the stand and shoot order from fantasy, simplify it down and give it to firewarrior and let them forgoe their CC attacks ad let the shooting count as their casualties.

What's that? oh your assaulting my tau with your marines.... well my tau have guns and use them at an initiative of OVER 9000!!!!!!!!!!!!! Eat 24 str 5 shots.

it would be much better and simpler if all the tau FW got pistols, or a way to get pistols like 3pts wargear. that would be a great problem solver for cc while retaining there CC=primitive attaude

gendoikari87 wrote:
well theres always the stand and shoot order from fantasy, simplify it down and give it to firewarrior and let them forgoe their CC attacks ad let the shooting count as their casualties.

What's that? oh your assaulting my tau with your marines.... well my tau have guns and use them at an initiative of OVER 9000!!!!!!!!!!!!! Eat 24 str 5 shots.


AAAGGGHHH!!!....VEGETA!!!..........LMAO...........wow....i think IMMA FIRIN' MY LASER!!!.........lmao...2 good of an opportunity 2 pass up....

o yeah...i dont wanna wait.....i hate waiting....fine and dandy for you ahvin waited 10+ years for a dark eldar codex, but like ive said b4, tau are supposed to b ever- evolving....they should have a new codex like every year or so for weapons or field testing items and such.....(thatz just my thoughts though...)

syanticraven wrote:

krato123 wrote:if tau are supposed 2 be ever evolving, then wtf is takin so long with our codex?

Dark Eldar waited 12 years I think you can wait another 1.

But 1 is one too many!

but pistols would solve so many problems.......they would get way better atks in CC even if they I is

I'm pretty sure in 5th pistols are only just an extra ccw; they resolve at user strength.

M.

Yeah that is right. That is why I would much rather a stand and shot type rule or 'flee' option where they get up and run the feth away requiring a leadership test on there next movement phase.

Now, since pistols SHOULD Be a damn close combat option (like they were in 3rd IIRC), you would not be wrong. Tau pistols should probably be as strong as a bolt pistol, giving them some bite.

M.

the codex says pulse pistols are S 5, ap 5 rangew 12" pistol. I so need to learn the 5th rules better

Ledabot wrote:the codex says pulse pistols are S 5, ap 5 rangew 12" pistol. I so need to learn the 5th rules better

That is correct however the Pistol is only for units that use ejection system, Tau FW do not carry them

syanticraven wrote:

Ledabot wrote:the codex says pulse pistols are S 5, ap 5 rangew 12" pistol. I so need to learn the 5th rules better

That is correct however the Pistol is only for units that use ejection system, Tau FW do not carry them

im having a what if thing

Infantryman wrote:Quite right on Fleet; I had forgotten it was different. Well, how about a bonus to their movement speed or something?

M.

The main advantage Tau Fire Warriors get is the slightly longer range of the Pulse Rifle.

5th edition made all infantry move more quickly. This reduced the advantage of range. It can't be restored by making Tau infantry move even faster because the table remains effectively smaller than before. The Pulse Rifle being Rapid Fire can still only be used within 12 inches when moving, which makes you vulnerable to immediate assault.

Edit: someone beat me to it

How are firewarriors not good? Their guns own compared to most infantry.

BS 3 kills an elite shooting army. Problem is when you look at the wound chart S5 isn't that much better against most standard infantry (T3 or 4). BS4 would be more useful, and is definately needed on suits.

Firewarrior also die very easy. Many armies can get into CC by turn 2. When you have lots of units (iG) this isn't a problem but when you have small units you need to be able to keep them out of CC) If the units had hit and run they may be worth taking.

Personally the easiest way to make them worth taking is a cheap fast vehicle with firing points (or open topped) so a good sized unit can fire out. That way they are mobile and safe while doing some damage.

Marker lights are supposed to compensate for that.

Another way of addressing the problem would be to change Marker lights.

Several ideas:

1. Pathfinders should get Marker lights with R18, Assault.
2. Activate the marker lights on Gun drones, for free, as R18, Assault.
3. Make Marker drones cheaper, and allow them to be carried on vehicles instead of the Gundrones.

Giving them half their normal range and making them assault is counter intuitive. Makes them much closer and usually within the range of a lot more fire and any unit that can Run will probably CC them quickly.

With the range they have now that isn't such a problem.

How about 18" Assault 1 or 36" Heavy 1?

Gwar! wrote:How about 18" Assault 1 or 36" Heavy 1?

No! You can not have your cake and eat it, get out.

Although that would be a lot fairer, but something would need to change to get the choice, like a drop in Ballistic skill on the move or similar.

I like Gwar's idea. Being heavy makes them a lot less useful, Tau are meant to be quick but their markerlights have to stay still.

Another option could be keeping the stats the same but having a new unit. A unit of marker drones (like gun drone units) would be worth taking.

I was saying a long time ago to make the pulse rifles rapid fire 2. This means 2 shots if standing still, or 4 shots in rapid fire.

Then pulse carbines would need assault 2 pinning.

However that still doesn't solve the problem of watching guard penal legions defeat all our infantry in melee.....

The only defense I came up for that was a failsafe drone. Acts like the failsafe device in the codex, only small blast str 6 and would occur when the assault was declared. After all drones are expendable, tau lives are not.

Maybe even just have the drone act as a Flash Bang. It stops them in their tracks and halfs their movement next turn?

What about my suggestion of improving Defensive Grenades across the board?

OK, I've been toying with a few ideas since reading this thread, I won't post them all up, but here are the one most relevant at the moment

Fixing CC - IMHO having some form of "stand and shoot" is the best way of helping improve Tau survivability. I would suggest that the rule should come into effect when an enemy unit declares a charge, but before you move any models into combat, as this would allow the improvement to be purely defensive. Photon grenades as standard would also help.

I would also suggest that a model equipped with a pulse carbine counts as having assault grenades, that would allow you to have a (sort of) offensive unit, for those times when you do need to go and clear the enemy out.

Fixing mobility - Make the Devilfish a fast transport? Given the rules on disembarking, I don't know how much this would help, but it couldn't hurt...

I like the idea of making them BS4. More time at the range, less time at the assault course. Disagree on the rifle being rapid fire 2, however, as it's supposed to be a slower firing weapon than usual so it doesn't overheat.

M.

No it isn't. It doesn't overheat because the Tau actually know how their weapons work, so can fix the problems. They have lowered the power so they are safe.

My Tau do brilliantly for me against hordes, orks and Tyranids etc. But I have yet to experiment with necrons marines and so on, i'll try it out.

How do you deal with large horde units? In my experience that's what tau are worst at.

Honestly I feel the tau are the worst at trying to fight another army that is geared to shoot back at them. They do great against armies who don't focus on their shooting, at least until the melee starts...

Really? I find it quite easy to deal with shooting armies. I usually just use my long ranged weapons and JSJ tactic to stay out of their range and keep shooting. While we don't have a lot of guns we definately have the lobgest ranged weapons.

I disagree.

Tau have very few weapons with a range greater than 30, basically they have the Ion Cannon and the Railgun, the missile pod and the rail rifle. The Tau army really lights up under range 36, thanks to marker lights, the pulse rifle, and Crisis suits with J-S-J.

Most other armies have a variety of weapons with ranges of 30+. A clever enemy can outrange most Tau weapons by sitting in the 36-48 range band. Crisis suits are more easily picked off with lascannons, etc, thanks to true LoS. This leaves only the vehicles (protected outside 12 inches by decoy pods) and Broadsides (long range but low ROF) to deal with.

If the attacker moves into the under 30 band, he then needs to move quickly to the under 24 band to avoid being outshot by pulse rifles, which isn't very difficult.

He then needs to move quickly to assault range to get into melta/assault range of the vehicles and Broadsides.

A standard table is only 48 inches wide, remember.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
This is why Tau need mobility as well as firepower.

Depends on how you use terrain. I run as many suits (Many with TL missile pods) as possible and a pair (or sometimes 3) railheads. I am happy to sit back and shoot them, they have no chance of firing back at the railheads and the suits have 36 inches plus 6 inches of movement. While this isn't a great range if you jump back behind terrain they can't hit you back.

If they choose to sit back pulse rifles actually become useful, no other basic troops have such a long range and combined with pathfinders you can have BS 5 and S5.

I find that units like bikers pone up my guys because they can mve 18" and shoot and charge. real pain

4M2A wrote:Depends on how you use terrain. I run as many suits (Many with TL missile pods) as possible and a pair (or sometimes 3) railheads. I am happy to sit back and shoot them, they have no chance of firing back at the railheads and the suits have 36 inches plus 6 inches of movement. While this isn't a great range if you jump back behind terrain they can't hit you back.

If they choose to sit back pulse rifles actually become useful, no other basic troops have such a long range and combined with pathfinders you can have BS 5 and S5.

These tactics will work against inexperienced players who let you play the game the way that suits you.

Against someone who uses initial terrain placement and the width of his deployment area well, and takes the initiative, they will be far less successful, and the other factors will come into play more strongly.

How about making all drones jet pack, instead of "as owner", so that they can always shoot? If they were cheaper, that'd be nice, too. So up to two markerlight drones, that are able to fire at separate targets every turn, in a fire warrior squad.

(I'm sorry, but marker drones have target locks, right?)


@Ledabot: I might be misinterpreting you, but bikes can move 12", shoot, then assault 6". Sounds like someone might be cheating you, but then again, I might be misinterpreting you.

micahaphone wrote:How about making all drones jet pack, instead of "as owner", so that they can always shoot? If they were cheaper, that'd be nice, too. So up to two markerlight drones, that are able to fire at separate targets every turn, in a fire warrior squad.

(I'm sorry, but marker drones have target locks, right?)


@Ledabot: I might be misinterpreting you, but bikes can move 12", shoot, then assault 6". Sounds like someone might be cheating you, but then again, I might be misinterpreting you.

Dam. i will persent that to him....

4M2A wrote:Really? I find it quite easy to deal with shooting armies. I usually just use my long ranged weapons and JSJ tactic to stay out of their range and keep shooting. While we don't have a lot of guns we definately have the lobgest ranged weapons.

I regularly have to fight guard... sooo... hopefully you see what I am talking about. Against anything but I do just fine. Oddly I mainly fight infantry heavy guard that loves to go to ground and then use orders to get back up and shoot...

juraigamer wrote:

4M2A wrote:Really? I find it quite easy to deal with shooting armies. I usually just use my long ranged weapons and JSJ tactic to stay out of their range and keep shooting. While we don't have a lot of guns we definately have the lobgest ranged weapons.

I regularly have to fight guard... sooo... hopefully you see what I am talking about. Against anything but I do just fine. Oddly I mainly fight infantry heavy guard that loves to go to ground and then use orders to get back up and shoot...

I find guard quite easy to deal with actually. Once the blast mark attacks disappear.
I use my Hellfires for them, I usually pick 3 units beside each other, one gets a barrage from my Devilfish, the next gets Flamed to death off Hellfires then I Devilfish another one.
When thats over I jump my hellfires back. If I feel daring enough my FW unload and fire into the next unit a long/survivors.
That usually cripples one side of the board while my HH's SMS and 3rd Devilfish work on the centre a bit.

My biggest problem will be DE and fast moving Orks.

4M2A wrote:BS 3 kills an elite shooting army. Problem is when you look at the wound chart S5 isn't that much better against most standard infantry (T3 or 4). BS4 would be more useful, and is definately needed on suits.

Firewarrior also die very easy. Many armies can get into CC by turn 2. When you have lots of units (iG) this isn't a problem but when you have small units you need to be able to keep them out of CC) If the units had hit and run they may be worth taking.

Personally the easiest way to make them worth taking is a cheap fast vehicle with firing points (or open topped) so a good sized unit can fire out. That way they are mobile and safe while doing some damage.

Quite right, at BS 4 they aren't much better than veterans, who have a metric tonne more options than they do.

Veteran against a marine (4/6)*(2/6)=.222 wounds before armor saves
Fire warrior against a marine (3/6)*(4/6)=.333

abut a 50% in..crease in efficiancy for a 42% increase in price... I just prooved my self wrong mathematically... point for point taking only into effect the basic forms, the firewarrior is much better for the price with a better armor save... but then again... gaurdsmen have access to a lot firewarriors dont.

4M2A wrote:BS 3 kills an elite shooting army. Problem is when you look at the wound chart S5 isn't that much better against most standard infantry (T3 or 4). BS4 would be more useful, and is definately needed on suits.

Firewarrior also die very easy. Many armies can get into CC by turn 2. When you have lots of units (iG) this isn't a problem but when you have small units you need to be able to keep them out of CC) If the units had hit and run they may be worth taking.

Personally the easiest way to make them worth taking is a cheap fast vehicle with firing points (or open topped) so a good sized unit can fire out. That way they are mobile and safe while doing some damage.

Yes, Tau should have BS 4. That is kind of stupid. But how the heck could you get your Tau into cc that fast without actually trying? (just send in some kroot to slow down the enemies, simply move the Tau back, or Devilfish them away.)

Two turns using a kroot wall.

Tau suck for one reason; being a shooty army, they suck at shooting.

I completely disagree with giving them anything "assault" oriented outside of kroot and MAYBE another xenos race they allied with since the last 'dex. I do, however, think they need to do a few things:
1) Give them rules that work
2) Make firewarriors double-tap at 15"
3) Take away the drones coming off the tanks; it complicates rules and gives them a vast disadvantage in KP's.
4) Combine list entrys, simplify rules already in place (the fact that some markerlights only work for the unit that shot it, and some work for the army is way too friggin confusing... streamline it)
5) Keep weapons/BS's the same, these seem to be fine when a lot of stuffs twin-linked anyway (and pathfinders give you BS skill 5 anyway lol)

Tau CAN win... yes, maybe not against an uber-fast up in your face punchy army, but in a gun fight they can definitely hold their own. I'd also like to see some new devilfish/hammerhead variants, tau-specific rules (some army-wide rules would be nice), and probably some new crisis suit variants. I'd also say that the target tracker thing (whatever it is that allows you to target 2 units) should be streamlined some more; like only certain weapons can be fired with it (because honestly, if hes focusing on firing a flamer over here, hows he gonna be firing a melta over here too. Should be made to make more sense, like only missiles and stuff that would "auto" lock on)

Honestly i don't think much needs to be done to fix them, as to what that is, I couldn't tell. Either better close combat ability which is unfluffy or stuff to delay close combat which Could have balance issues. or something else entirely. I did like the idea of DT test grenades though.

Zid wrote:Tau suck for one reason; being a shooty army, they suck at shooting.

I completely disagree with giving them anything "assault" oriented outside of kroot and MAYBE another xenos race they allied with since the last 'dex. I do, however, think they need to do a few things:
1) Give them rules that work
2) Make firewarriors double-tap at 15"
3) Take away the drones coming off the tanks; it complicates rules and gives them a vast disadvantage in KP's.
4) Combine list entrys, simplify rules already in place (the fact that some markerlights only work for the unit that shot it, and some work for the army is way too friggin confusing... streamline it)
5) Keep weapons/BS's the same, these seem to be fine when a lot of stuffs twin-linked anyway (and pathfinders give you BS skill 5 anyway lol)

Tau CAN win... yes, maybe not against an uber-fast up in your face punchy army, but in a gun fight they can definitely hold their own. I'd also like to see some new devilfish/hammerhead variants, tau-specific rules (some army-wide rules would be nice), and probably some new crisis suit variants. I'd also say that the target tracker thing (whatever it is that allows you to target 2 units) should be streamlined some more; like only certain weapons can be fired with it (because honestly, if hes focusing on firing a flamer over here, hows he gonna be firing a melta over here too. Should be made to make more sense, like only missiles and stuff that would "auto" lock on)

Its a target lock and what it does is tell the suit pilot point arm A here and Arm B there, now pull the trigger. It does all the calculations needed and feeds it to the pilot.

I think its strange how the tau have seeking missiles, smart missiles, and missile pods. Are they trying to tell us that missiles from missile pods are blind and fly like rpg's or something? are they serpoded to be diffrent sized missiles cos smarts are s 5, missile pod missiles are s 7 and seekers are s 8

.......i seriously think we might b set up for failure in the next 'dex....but we should get something 2 stall close combat. and +1 BS....i think we could all make due with a couple of my ideas as well, but if they do decide 2 make tau combat army in any way shape or form, then we need aun'shi back....his ability was 2 damn good....

So they should have BS4 for sure. Mathhammering the rifles vs MEQ's:

12 guys firing at long range = 8 hits.
8 hits wounding on 3+ (2/3 of the time): 5 1/3 Wounds
5 1/3 wounds saved on a 3+ (2/3 of the time): 3.556 Dead

A full strength 10 man squad takes a morale check right there, and if it's a carbine unit that's 3-4 pinning checks you have to pass (which, admitantly, you only fail 16.67% of the time).

Or how about a squadron of these for fast attack: http://www.dorlingkindersley-uk.co.uk/static/html/features/starwars/technology_gallery/images/Battle%20Droid%20STAP.jpg



M.

Basic FWs shouldn't have BS4.

Marker lights should be cheaper and more available.

They are, however, supposed to be an elite shooting army. I suppose the marker light could be better overall but if it gives +1 to hit isn't that the same as making them BS4?

M.

DE WILL have you in combat turn 2, with an average 31" first turn move (uness they reserve)

What.

Why on earth?

How? Why god why?

Well, at least I'll be basing my Guard force around the Death Korps list...maybe I can fight back!

M.

Infantryman wrote:They are, however, supposed to be an elite shooting army. I suppose the marker light could be better overall but if it gives +1 to hit isn't that the same as making them BS4?

M.

The marker light requires spending points on another unit and creates different tactical decisions than just having BS4 on everything.

With Tau, you want their movement and shooting phases to be more complicated, offering more interesting decisions for the player, as they won't have an assault and melee phase.

What about Jetpacks? That gives Tau an Assault move. Just not an assault orientied assault move.

Kilkrazy wrote:

Infantryman wrote:They are, however, supposed to be an elite shooting army. I suppose the marker light could be better overall but if it gives +1 to hit isn't that the same as making them BS4?

M.

The marker light requires spending points on another unit and creates different tactical decisions than just having BS4 on everything.

With Tau, you want their movement and shooting phases to be more complicated, offering more interesting decisions for the player, as they won't have an assault and melee phase.

Very good point there. So we should stick with a marker light in unit X lighting up enemy A so that unit Y can attack them at BS+?

M.

EDIT: What about giving them Combat Squads? Surely an advanced race like the Tau would have something like that for their small, "elite" squads.

Iur_tae_mont wrote:What about Jetpacks? That gives Tau an Assault move. Just not an assault orientied assault move.

It's not much by itself, though.

Kilkrazy wrote:

Iur_tae_mont wrote:What about Jetpacks? That gives Tau an Assault move. Just not an assault orientied assault move.

It's not much by itself, though.

It would help us pulling off some manoeuvres like getting out DF rapid firing into the enemy and moving 6" back (i.e moving behind DF blocking assault)

They do have one good thing going for sure; they have a lot of Relentless stuff.

M.

True also combat squads is a big no, it is hugely against their philosophy -it is scene as barbaric. Maybe a new race in the alliance that is combat heavy but they would be costly.

I would like the drones to have more roles. Or maybe a technological advanced model of them.

Combat squads let Marines split into two, five man fire teams. With Tau it would be two of six.

M.

Oh yeah I was thinking combat as in CC not the SM combat squads, stupid me.

Helios is or flamer guys are the closest thing to CC and they often die once they deep strike, that is if you get then on the field before you lose...
I really cant be bothed to do the maths but they kill lke 3 MEQs.

So the only idea that seems to be relatively well received is that a unit that wants to shoot at BS4 has to rely on another unit to markerlight it. I suppose that's not too bad all in all. Would these Markerlights be 36" rapid fire or 36" Assault 1?

M.

I would make Pathfinder markerlights R18 assault, and marker drones R36, Heavy 1, Relentless, networked. I would also cost marker drones at 20.

I believe Pathfinders need to be mobile, but that many cheap long range markerlights would be overpowering.

Ledabot wrote:Helios is or flamer guys are the closest thing to CC and they often die once they deep strike, that is if you get then on the field before you lose...
I really cant be bothed to do the maths but they kill lke 3 MEQs.

There is also the XV9 Suit. It's not good at Close Combat, but it's good at Tying up non assault specialists.

Can be taken is Squads of 1-3, fast attack, t5, has Hit and Run.

My brother, a Tau player, and I thought about this: Long Barreled Heavy Gun Drones with Burst Cannon in FW squads.

M.

Sniper Drones?

And we have enough S5 AP5 in the Fire warrior squads.

I'm going to say this again as I do in all what tau needs threads. ... triple burst cannon devilfish. Make them high hard with a hard outer shell and a gooey center for capturing objectives. Also shield gens for vehicles to replace disruption pods.

Change it to triple Smart Missle Systems and you got a deal.

Now why didn't I ever think of using my own vehicles for cover... stupid stupid stupid...

Anyway, the main issue I have with tau, even while it's the race that got me into 40k, is they just can't shoot that well.

I'm not talking about needing BS 4, nor about markerlights. They just can't output enough to be considered a decent shooting army. Units are too expensive, some are useless, others have uses but take spots for NEEDED units.

Not just that however. In theory, markerlights are a necessity for the army. However, their cost is through the roof and to be working effectively you either need pathfinders or stealth teams with marker drones.

Imagine needing to spend 1/4 the points for a 1000 point list on one unit to make your army work. Now imagine what your opponent will think to do during their turn. Answer: Kill one specific unit, win the game.

The tau don't need melee, auxiliaries do this. However, kroot (the current best choice for melee) have two huge problems. They are incredibly frail and have no grenades. Go ahead and charge into terrain and watch what happens. This could be fixed by pinning a unit, but then they still attack at the same time.

If anything, I just want better options. Good options. More than one way to play and be reasonably successful. I want a codex full of useful units. I don't want to see half the units in the codex never fielded.

The stuff in the imperial armor books gives the tau some interesting options, massive flyers excluded of course. But even then the tau are outclassed in shooting by nearly every other race. Str 10 ap 1 is no longer our thing. Hell others have the same thing with the lance rule. I believe the only thing the tau have that is unique is the markerlights and I can only hope that when the codex is redone it feels unique and not a compilation of other codex scraps.

They may have s10 ap1 lance, but not from a country mile.

Yeah our range is pretty beast...Oh you are 70" away from me? (railgun shot then burns a massive hole in his afro -Because damn it someone in 40k has to have an afro and it might as well be ruined in the coolest way possible.) Then there is the fact we have a 70" anti horde attack too.

Rail guns are good. i just dont like how they always seem to drift off target with me. last time i used a hammerhead i rolled two sixes!

Well they used to be an automated hit, now our pilots forgot how to fire so precisely and we have to roll.

Was that in 3rd edition? I spose i might have been overpowered

No it was due to the rulebook not the codex. So it was in 4th edition.

.

Hammerhead was such a good girl. Then it all changed.......

we will miss you awesomeness.