Like the title says, what would you like to see in the 5th edition Chaos Space Marine Codex?

The Soul Grinder, Real Daemons again.

I'd like a Chaos Space Marines codex, not a renegade marines codex guest-starring Chaos. Will never agree with taking Demons out of the codex even if it was to give them their own.

They should atleast gotten like an Allies rule were you could use Chaos Marines in a Daemon Army and Daemons on a Chaos Marines army.

Hell yes to the Soulgrinder!

Already been done dude. Try the search function (even if everyone knows it sucks )

Better icons, better chosen, better lords, icons for tanks.


Better daemonic possession, better possessed marines.More options for defilers. Chaos Plasma land Raiders!

Dammit! (somewhere in the Warp) Just as planned!

not written by gav thorpe.
drop pods.
psychic defenses.
give us our fething books of chaos back.
give us our fething legit demons back.
possessed that don't suck. just once.
ya ya ya

(sheepishly) I liked the Thorpness...

rage

Thanks for the advice on the daemons, though.

AbaddonFidelis wrote:not written by gav thorpe.
drop pods.
psychic defenses.
give us our fething books of chaos back.
give us our fething legit demons back.
possessed that don't suck. just once.
ya ya ya

CORRECT!

All of this.

hahaha

Mordoskul wrote:Like the title says, what would you like to see in the 5th edition Chaos Space Marine Codex?

Top 5:

1. Markable Lesser Daemons, but starting with a S3 T3 basic statline.

2. Markable Greater Daemon, with Wings

3. Cheaper Possessed (Troops option for Black Legion).

4. Markable Cultists (also count as Beastmen & Mutants), as non-Scoring Troops (Scoring for Word Bearers)

5. "Big 4" Special Characters removed (for future CSM Legions book)

@JohnDD: Re: Taking out the big 4. Look what happened when they did that with Daemons. Using GW's rules-writing logic, this would only end up with a main book with no daemons OR specialty marines, and no way to get them back!

They'd have marks, but those would only make "poor mans" versions of the cult troops, without specialty wargear. The writers would include special characters for each of the lesser legions though, and rules to make uh... "characterful" lists like Raptor troops for Night Lords, Havoc troops for Iron Warriors, and outflanking Rhinos for Alpha Legion. Word Bearers will get less than nothing with some hamfisted CHAPLAIN ABOMINUS or somesuch with the rules to make spawns as troops. Black Legion will be stock Chaos Marines with um... free mark undivided for each unit. Yeah!

There'd be a huge White Dwarf spread of the new command sculpts, and Jervis would write another Standard Bearer about how the Chaos book is more streamlined without cult troops (get their own book DAWG!) and how lots of new options have been opened up...!

Oh yeah!!!!

Cult teminators. They were there for one brief shining moment and then they were gone.

oh yeah I forgot all about that. in my cult of khorne who are the only bozos without furious charge? the lord and his elite retinue. pretty fething stupid.

Psychic defenses
A Greater Daemon who isn't slow as all crap

those are my biggest ones, though markable daemons of both flavors is pretty damn high on my list as well.

A lord with eternal warrior....WHY DOESN'T HE HAVE IT ALLREADY?

I mean, c'mon, if the choas gods gave him all that power....why let a single lascanon totting devastator kill him instantly?

I'd like to see some fluff about how the Red Corsairs are destroyed so hard, they never had the spot light in 4th ed.

Also Doom Rider kills his way into Huron's Special Character position + Codex Art Work of Abbadon stomping all over Thorpe.

keezus wrote:@JohnDD: Re: Taking out the big 4. Look what happened when they did that with Daemons. Using GW's rules-writing logic, this would only end up with a main book with no daemons OR specialty marines, and no way to get them back!

They'd have marks, but those would only make "poor mans" versions of the cult troops, without specialty wargear. The writers would include special characters for each of the lesser legions though, and rules to make uh... "characterful" lists like Raptor troops for Night Lords, Havoc troops for Iron Warriors, and outflanking Rhinos for Alpha Legion. Word Bearers will get less than nothing with some hamfisted CHAPLAIN ABOMINUS or somesuch with the rules to make spawns as troops. Black Legion will be stock Chaos Marines with um... free mark undivided for each unit. Yeah!

There'd be a huge White Dwarf spread of the new command sculpts, and Jervis would write another Standard Bearer about how the Chaos book is more streamlined without cult troops (get their own book DAWG!) and how lots of new options have been opened up...!

Oh yeah!!!!

I'm looking at Warhammer Fantasy, in which Daemons are one army, Mortals are another, and Beastmen are a third. Not to mention how Undead were split into Wet and Dry. In that context, Chaos Daemons, Chaos Legions, and Chaos Marines makes perfect sense. Legions would have Cult Terminators and Cult Rhinos and so on.

Chaos Marines can have basic Markable S3 T3 Lesser Daemons, along with basic Cult Marines. Daemons would have full-on S4 T4-based Cult Daemons. And, of course, as you suggest, a whole raft of MoCU Special Characters, taking the MoCU Legions and renegades out of the shadow of the Big 4, ultimately giving players *more* choices.

Your note on the WD article misses how GW would blather about how they've been working on Chaos Legions for *years* and blah-blah-blah, finally they are able to release blah-blah *awesome sauce* blah-blah, *BUY MOAR!!!* blah.

I'd still be excited over it.

well the days of cheap and easy access to eternal warrior are gone forever. marines dont have it, chaos doesnt have it, bugs dont have it etc etc. that's not coming back any time soon. personally I'm in favor of it - the instant death rule was starting to look kind of pointless a few years ago.

And yes BRING BACK DOOM RIDER!!!!! Let them quiver in rapturuous ecstacy as they are impaled upon his throbbing demon sword!!! Let them fall to their knees in rapturuous bliss as the white heat of his gushing plasma pistol spills upon them!!! May they know the ecstatic bliss he graciously bestows upon them in an orgy of destruction!!! For these reasons and more, Oh Great God Slaanesh, we beseech thee, Send forth your servant DOOM RIDER!!!!!!

JohnHwangDD wrote:

Mordoskul wrote:Like the title says, what would you like to see in the 5th edition Chaos Space Marine Codex?

Top 5:

1. Markable Lesser Daemons, but starting with a S3 T3 basic statline.

2. Markable Greater Daemon, with Wings

3. Cheaper Possessed (Troops option for Black Legion).

4. Markable Cultists (also count as Beastmen & Mutants), as non-Scoring Troops (Scoring for Word Bearers)

5. "Big 4" Special Characters removed (for future CSM Legions book)

Hmm, I like it, but why remove the big 4 as you put it?

Just asking...Is doomrider a metal model with a plastic bike, or is his bike metal too?

I just put together a plastic CSM bike and it was awesomely easy! I want to make a bike army now!

he's a plastic csm bike kit with some metal bits.

Mordoskul wrote:

JohnHwangDD wrote:Top 5:

1. Markable Lesser Daemons, but starting with a S3 T3 basic statline.

2. Markable Greater Daemon, with Wings

3. Cheaper Possessed (Troops option for Black Legion).

4. Markable Cultists (also count as Beastmen & Mutants), as non-Scoring Troops (Scoring for Word Bearers)

5. "Big 4" Special Characters removed (for future CSM Legions book)

Hmm, I like it, but why remove the big 4 as you put it?

To free up design space by splitting CSM into Big 4 Legions vs unaligned Legions

I don't think they'll do two sperate codices. They're big projects and they take up alot of their R&D team's time. Besides that two codices for one model range? I'm skeptical...

Make Thousand Sons not suck.

AbaddonFidelis wrote:I don't think they'll do two separate codices. They're big projects and they take up alot of their R&D team's time.

It's not like the devs actually play test the rules that extensively.

Besides that two codices for one model range? I'm skeptical...

I agree that would be absurd, almost as absurd as 5 codices sharing the same model line.

AbaddonFidelis wrote:I don't think they'll do two sperate codices. They're big projects and they take up alot of their R&D team's time. Besides that two codices for one model range? I'm skeptical...

Are you talking about 40k's Space Marines or Chaos Daemons of Chaos?


Splitting the books takes less time per book, as each book is more focused.

mmmmm.... they only partially share it. blood angels space wolves etc have plenty of their own toys. I just dont see why they would do two different books. they've never gone into the background of the renegade legions in anything like as much detail as they have the loyalists. what would be in the world eaters section of the codex? more berserkers? they're not like space wolves who have 20 different kinds of units. they're all berserkers. I just dont see it. yes thousand sons not sucking would be awesome. I think we're going to have to wait for 6th and 5++ cover for that. other than the cover issue the real problem with thousand sons is their price. at 20 points a guy and 50 points for a sorcerer with any power free + an upgraded blast of tzeentch or whatever they would be good. AF


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JohnHwangDD wrote:

AbaddonFidelis wrote:I don't think they'll do two sperate codices. They're big projects and they take up alot of their R&D team's time. Besides that two codices for one model range? I'm skeptical...

Are you talking about 40k's Space Marines or Chaos Daemons of Chaos?


Splitting the books takes less time per book, as each book is more focused.

demons have two different books because they're in two different games

Full-on Bloodletters, Bloodthirster, PA Berzerkers, TDA Berzerkers, JP Berzerkers, and Khornate Defiler & Soulgrinder is a pretty decent list.

AbaddonFidelis wrote:he's a plastic csm bike kit with some metal bits.

Thanks. That's what he looks like. I think I'll buy him for my bike company! Chaos lord with a daemon weapon of course. I own the old codex, but his rules seem totally weird now. Wouldn't really fit.

Not a metal dreadnought.

just convert one.sheesh...That's what chaos is about!

JohnHwangDD wrote:Full-on Bloodletters, Bloodthirster, PA Berzerkers, TDA Berzerkers, JP Berzerkers, and Khornate Defiler & Soulgrinder is a pretty decent list.

so.... basically.... demon allies... berserker on foot. berserker in terminator armor. berserker with jump pack. defiler with an extra attack. souldgrinder with an extra attack. they're not going to write a whole new codex just to cover that. it's cheaper to just include it in the regular csm codex.


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Samus_aran115 wrote:

AbaddonFidelis wrote:he's a plastic csm bike kit with some metal bits.

Thanks. That's what he looks like. I think I'll buy him for my bike company! Chaos lord with a daemon weapon of course. I own the old codex, but his rules seem totally weird now. Wouldn't really fit.

yeah his rules were bunk back then. that's why he's still available and always will be - they've got a whole warehouse somewhere of unsold doomrider models. I have the model for my bike army it's pretty cool. you have to base him on a mountain of cocaine if you wish to invoke the full power of slaanesh on the table top.

It makes no sense to do a dedicated Khorne book. But throw 4 Legions in there, and you can do a full Khorne army, with Khorne weapons & upgrades, and the whole shebang, coupled with a new Berzerker & PM sprues.

Besides, it's not like it stopped GW from doing Robes, Tabards, Wings and Furry versions of SMs.

well for what its worth I think it would be really cool if they did. imperial lap dogs get way too much love and attention.

Of course they do, which is why it'd be nice to have more stuff of any flavor, even if the updates slow down a little bit.

AbaddonFidelis wrote:well for what its worth I think it would be really cool if they did. imperial lap dogs get way too much love and attention.

You speak the truth.


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You know what it needs, more customability for the chaos lords.

AbaddonFidelis wrote:oh yeah I forgot all about that. in my cult of khorne who are the only bozos without furious charge? the lord and his elite retinue. pretty fething stupid.

+1 to this.

I kinda wish Chaos get an interim PDF codex way before an actual codex update so at the very least, Chaos get their fearless terminators back (which isn’t really asking for much).

candy.man wrote:

AbaddonFidelis wrote:oh yeah I forgot all about that. in my cult of khorne who are the only bozos without furious charge? the lord and his elite retinue. pretty fething stupid.

+1 to this.

I kinda wish Chaos get an interim PDF codex way before an actual codex update so at the very least, Chaos get their fearless terminators back (which isn’t really asking for much).

Was curious about that.

Allies rule for chaos daemons would be nice as I am slowly building a daemon army and I already have Chaos SM.

I would like them to stay completely and utterly separate from Chaos Daemons, an army I actually might eventually play.

PSYCHIC DEFENSES!

Why does chaos not have any?! It makes no sense!

RAGE!!11




P.S. Please crush Huron Blackheart and his "legion" into red goo.

Because the Chaos Space Marines sold their souls to the Chaos Gods. It's only fair they get what they signed up for.

That said it would be nice if you could buy the Blessing of the Blood God for 10pts for Khorne Marked models. So the Chosen of Khorne would be Chaos Berzerkers with the Blessing of the Blood God. The Chosen of Tzeentch would allow all units within 12" to re-roll saves. The Chosen of Nurgle would have Poisoned Weapon (4+). The Chosen of Slaanesh would have Transfixing Gaze.

Something like Chaos Space Marines can exchange their Bolter for +1WS. Upgrade Stubborn to Fearless. Upgrade each suite of rules that turn Chaos Space Marines into Cult Troops, allowing players to take all or some or none.

Likewise it would be nice to keep Generic Daemons and give powers the opportunity of having half-formed damon leaking into reality and full fledged Bloodletters, Plague Daemons, etc, running around.

Some mid-level W2 per single HQ slot items could be useful too, like a Lieutenant, a Demagogue, and a Daemonic Herald.

Give the Daemon Prince the options as is in the Chaos Daemons book. Ditto for the Daemonic Herald.

Give them a unit of Jetbikes, just to shove the Imperial nose in it, clarify Enhanced Warriors and Crazed, and maybe make Daemonic Possession more god-specific.

Nurglitch wrote:Because the Chaos Space Marines sold their souls to the Chaos Gods. It's only fair they get what they signed up for.

You mean immortality and limitless power?

Nurglitch wrote:
That said it would be nice if you could buy the Blessing of the Blood God for 10pts for Khorne Marked models. So the Chosen of Khorne would be Chaos Berzerkers with the Blessing of the Blood God. The Chosen of Tzeentch would allow all units within 12" to re-roll saves. The Chosen of Nurgle would have Poisoned Weapon (4+). The Chosen of Slaanesh would have Transfixing Gaze.

Something like Chaos Space Marines can exchange their Bolter for +1WS. Upgrade Stubborn to Fearless. Upgrade each suite of rules that turn Chaos Space Marines into Cult Troops, allowing players to take all or some or none.

Likewise it would be nice to keep Generic Daemons and give powers the opportunity of having half-formed damon leaking into reality and full fledged Bloodletters, Plague Daemons, etc, running around.

Some mid-level W2 per single HQ slot items could be useful too, like a Lieutenant, a Demagogue, and a Daemonic Herald.

Give the Daemon Prince the options as is in the Chaos Daemons book. Ditto for the Daemonic Herald.

Give them a unit of Jetbikes, just to shove the Imperial nose in it, clarify Enhanced Warriors and Crazed, and maybe make Daemonic Possession more god-specific.

A 2 wound HQ would be nice for smaller games.

But DON'T make wings cost 60 points for a demon prince. That's obscene and ridiculous.

As for Crazed, just make it so the dread doesn't shoot his buddies unless he can't see an enemy unit.

Enhanced Warriors definitely needs clarification - does it apply to just CSM, or also to bikers, raptors, havocs, chosen, etc.?

An updated 3.5 codex.

I'd like an option to buy FNP for Nurgle troops...

grrrrr.... in the 3.5 codex collar of khorne was a 5 point, yes a 5 point wargear that nullified psychic powers on a 2+, yes on a 2+ now when someone casts a spell at us we have to just eat it. as people who live in the eye of terror chaos warriors are exposed to the power of the warp every day, they ought to have a trick or two for making sure it doesn't whack them on the battle field.

imo the hankering for the 3.5 codex is a little misguided. It was a good codex in its day but what made it good wasnt so much its content (besides the awesome background) but its content next to the other codices. Now that all of those books have changed I think you'd find if you tried to play that book regularly that you'd get your ass handed to you by some of the newer, more aggressive codices. It's just not as powerful as it used to be, aside from a few quirks.

Also the 4th ed book did something pretty important for chaos armies that I really hope they'll hold on to in the future editions - it rationalized the effects of worshipping certain gods on their mortal followers and demons. now worshipping khorne gives you... +1 attack, +1 weapon skill, and furious charge, whether you're a berserker, demon whatever. nurgle gives you +1 toughness, feel no pain, and defensive grenades, slaanesh gives you +1 attack, +1 initiative, and either sonic weapons or rending attacks + fleet of foot. Tzeentch guys get low ap attacks, a good invulnerable save, and access to more psychic powers. compared to 3.5 this system makes alot of sense. In that codex there was basically no method for deciding which cultists got which powers; the lord of change had higher initiative than the keeper of secrets IIRC, thousand sons had two wounds a piece, etc. So anyway I'm glad they cleaned that whole mess up.

But definitely legit demons. this lesser/greater demon nonsense has got to go. personally I dont care what the rules say - I've got khorne marines, I've got khorne demons, they fight together, and that's that. If someone wants to complain out comes the vulkan list and they die horribly. If they want to play nice then they get to face a less competitive (but still strong!) and far more flavorful army. Most people dont complain though.
AF

AbaddonFidelis wrote:imo the hankering for the 3.5 codex is a little misguided. It was a good codex in its day but what made it good wasnt so much its content (besides the awesome background) but its content next to the other codices. Now that all of those books have changed I think you'd find if you tried to play that book regularly that you'd get your ass handed to you by some of the newer, more aggressive codices. It's just not as powerful as it used to be, aside from a few quirks.

People aren't pining for the 3.5 codex because it was powerful, they want it because it had character. For example, Daemon Princes are supposed to be unique individuals that have been made immortal for their service to Chaos. A Khorne DP should have more options than whether he's got wings or not.

Personaly i havent played my nids since the codex changed, destroyed the way my army worked. So id be happy with it staying almost exactly the same, just lower point costs and marks on deamons/tanks.
That, or make it like the 3rd edition rule book. Cuz I read through that and it was fantastical.

AlexHolker wrote:

AbaddonFidelis wrote:imo the hankering for the 3.5 codex is a little misguided. It was a good codex in its day but what made it good wasnt so much its content (besides the awesome background) but its content next to the other codices. Now that all of those books have changed I think you'd find if you tried to play that book regularly that you'd get your ass handed to you by some of the newer, more aggressive codices. It's just not as powerful as it used to be, aside from a few quirks.

People aren't pining for the 3.5 codex because it was powerful, they want it because it had character. For example, Daemon Princes are supposed to be unique individuals that have been made immortal for their service to Chaos. A Khorne DP should have more options than whether he's got wings or not.

Agreed!

For every Iron Warrior Heavy Support Abuser and/or Slaaneshi Siren Prince there were 5 players who just liked the variety and the ability to do a lot of different things.

It was the shoehorn approach that gave us the Skittles Warband that many weren't happy with...

Return raptors to undivided.

skittles warband..Clever indeed

Also, havocs with a MOS should be able to take up to four blastmasters. 40 points is way too much. 30 seems reasonable.

AlexHolker wrote:

AbaddonFidelis wrote:imo the hankering for the 3.5 codex is a little misguided. It was a good codex in its day but what made it good wasnt so much its content (besides the awesome background) but its content next to the other codices. Now that all of those books have changed I think you'd find if you tried to play that book regularly that you'd get your ass handed to you by some of the newer, more aggressive codices. It's just not as powerful as it used to be, aside from a few quirks.

People aren't pining for the 3.5 codex because it was powerful, they want it because it had character. For example, Daemon Princes are supposed to be unique individuals that have been made immortal for their service to Chaos. A Khorne DP should have more options than whether he's got wings or not.

I dont disagree with that.... it was definitely the better written book.

cyrax777 wrote:Allies rule for chaos daemons would be nice as I am slowly building a daemon army and I already have Chaos SM.

Cut & Paste is *far* better than Allies, because there's no question about Codices getting out of sorts when one updates. DH & WH show this problem very clearly, which is why DH needs updating, badly.
____

AlexHolker wrote:People aren't pining for the 3.5 codex because it was powerful, they want it because it had character.

I don't think so. If everything in the 3.5 Codex that wasn't a vanilla CSM had it's price doubled, nobody would have played it. The 3.5 Codex was an utter failure because it was Chaos everything-but-Space-Marines. The Daemons were clearly superior to the CSMs. The Defiler & Daemon Prince, clearly superior to the CSM stuff which the army was supposed to be built around.
____

Alpharius wrote:For every Iron Warrior Heavy Support Abuser, Daemon spammer, Daemon bomber and/or Slaaneshi Siren Prince there were 5 might have been 1 or 2 players who just liked the variety and the ability to do a lot of different things. Sadly, though, these players were few and far between.

FYP.
____

the_ferrett wrote:Return raptors to undivided.

To differentiate them from AMs, maybe the could get a bonus USR, like, say, H&R...

the_ferrett wrote:Return raptors to undivided.

Um, they are.

Mordoskul wrote:

the_ferrett wrote:Return raptors to undivided.

Um, they are.

he means make them non markable as Raptors used to be a cult all their own, no god followings.

Noisy_Marine:

I was thinking more of leaving themselves exposed to the Power of the Warp, which is signing up for potential immortality and limitless power, but more often mutation, madness, and death. It's like signing up to mine uranium: handling uranium ore doesn't make you more resistant to radiation, it simply means you're exposed to more of it.

Making Wings for Daemon Princes cost 60pts is what it takes for there to be an honest choice for players between taking Wings and not taking Winds. Any less and there's no reason not to take Wings. Oh, and Daemon Princes in the Chaos Space Marine list should have the appropriate Psychic Power version of whatever Gifts of Chaos a Daemon Prince may have.

Crazed is already written "so the dread doesn't shoot his buddies unless he can't see an enemy unit". If the Dreadnought goes into a Fire Frenzy, you shoot at the closest visible unit. Unfortunately this isn't clear enough for many people to receive the message that the Dreadnought only shoots at the closest unit in its 45 degree weapon lines of sight, not the unit of Chaos Space Marines directly behind it and not visible to it. Basically fratricide is a matter of tactics rather than the rules and that needs clarifying.

Enhanced Warriors could refer to three things: (1) Anything in Codex: Chaos Space Marines, (2) Anything under 'Chaos Space Marines' entry in the Forces of Chaos Section - including Chaos Space Marines, Havocs, Chosen, and Bikers, (3) The Chaos Space Marine entry in the Army List Section, the Troops choice. I think this could be solved by referring to the Troop choice as a Battle Squad.

I forgot to mention that the W2 HQ choices should have the option of being take 2 to a slot, like Heralds can be taken in Codex: Chaos Daemons.

The Lieutenant would have a rule that lets him confer a 'Veteran Skill' on a unit, like "Scout, Infiltrate, Tank Hunters, Move Through Cover, Skilled Rider, etc". The Demagogue would have a 6" aura to improve the morale and/or fighting capabilities of nearby units, and perhaps an Aspiring Sorcerer detached from the Thousand Suns, giving W2, and a single psychic power while Sorcerers would have the ability to cast two psychic powers.

Using these psychic powers I proposed.

I'm reasonably happy with the codex, sure a few things could use some tweaking, such as making the friggin demon prince not die from massed bolter or lasgun fire so easily, but there is one glaring thing that bugs me...

WHY do the special characters, direct servants and favored by a single chaos god NOT have ETERNAL WARRIOR. WTF. Honestly. Also cultists would be great.

Nurglitch wrote:Making Wings for Daemon Princes cost 60pts is what it takes for there to be an honest choice for players between taking Wings and not taking Winds.

the Dreadnought only shoots at the closest unit in its 45 degree weapon lines of sight, not the unit of Chaos Space Marines directly behind it and not visible to it.

While 20 pts is too low (should be 25 for most HQs), Wings on a Daemon Prince is not worth 60 pts - that's paying more than a CSM Rhino, for pity's sake. He doesn't hit has hard as full squad of Cult Marines or Chosen, so he shouldn't pay more. A Rhino is 35 pts, so I'd charge up to 30 pts for Wings on a DP, 25 on a Sorceror. But really, Wings have been overpriced for far too long, so encouraging mobility by default is a good choice. What's a real error is not having Wings (and Icon/Marks) available for the Greater Daemon.

I think that we would all like to see the Crazed argument removed. You're wrong, BTW. A Dread can see 360 degrees, and *will* shoot the Daemon Prince standing behind him.

If 60 pts was worth spending on Wings for a Daemon Prince, we wouldn't see any Daemon Princes without Wings. Wings double the utility of a Daemon Prince, allowing it to hunt vehicles, Deep Strike, and use weapons like Wind of Chaos more effectively. Wings should be priced accordingly.

Speaking of vehicles, I recommend you read the Line of Sight rules for Walkers. Walkers are vehicles and have lines of sight defined by their ranged weapon mounts, which on Walkers have a 45 degree arc to their front. If a unit is not within one of these 45 degree front arcs at the beginning of the shooting phase, it is not visible to a Chaos Dreadnought in a Fire Frenzy. So as it turns out, your opinion is the one that is wrong. Which is why the rule needs to be clarified so that you don't continue to advocate for such an opinion.

Crazed definitely needs to stay in the next version of the Codex as it makes Chaos Dreadnoughts a lot of fun to play and encourges players to use tactics that reduce the risk of fratricide, rather defaulting to a particular configuration when they take Chaos Dreadnoughts at all.

Take the current codex.
Shred it.
Burn it.
Take the 3.5e codex.
Start from there.

Fix points costs, update everything to 5e, make options for every chaos Legion, throw in some new units that everyone will buy, print it.

Reprint the 2nd edition codex with the Abaddon cover art redone.

Walkers can pivot about their waist 360 degrees, ergo, 360-degree LOS.

We need something like a venerable dreadnought. It loses crazed, gains +1 BS and WS and can take something different that a regular DCCW. Like a blood talon, except chaosy. Of course, this would bring its cost up to at least 150 base...

JohnHwangDD:

Indeed, and if under the influence of Fire Frenzy then they pivot towards the closest, visible unit. That means there has to be a unit that is the closest unit and a unit that has to be a visible unit, and that once there is one unit that satisfies both of these conditions, then the Dreadnought pivots towards it. Ordinarily a Walker can pivot in the Shooting phase before checking for range and line of sight to a target, but as in so many things, special rules take precedence over general rules.

Samus_aran115 wrote:We need something like a venerable dreadnought. It loses crazed, gains +1 BS and WS and can take something different that a regular DCCW. Like a blood talon, except chaosy. Of course, this would bring its cost up to at least 150 base...

+1 to this idea.

As well as this, I would like fire frenzy tweaked in the next dex so that the closest *enemy* units are targeted first, with friendly units only targeted if no enemy units are in range. I would also like to see blood rage being replaced with fire frenzy on the crazed table if the dread has no DCCW equipped (or if its current DCCW weapon has been destroyed).

Uhhh... I don't quite think that's what he meant. But that's a pretty good point. I, for one, would like to see the marks removed, except for Undivided. Nobody uses them. Also, possessed that don't suck, and maybe a couple pages showing a couple special rules (one good, one bad) that you can take for free and play a specific Legion.

You know, I really don't know the difference in editions since I just started. Has the CSM been nerfed in the past or something? Can anyone give me a n00b break down

disel24 wrote:You know, I really don't know the difference in editions since I just started. Has the CSM been nerfed in the past or something? Can anyone give me a n00b break down

The old book had extensive wargear, rules for every legion, and interesting fluffy options. The new one is a pale, boring shadow of the old one.

It's not about power, it's about options, fun, fluff. The new one is at least as powerful than the old one.

JohnHwangDD wrote:Walkers can pivot about their waist 360 degrees, ergo, 360-degree LOS.

Yes, but you measure LoS after you roll, don't you? Which means that, if there was nothing in the 45 degree arc when fire frenzy is activated, nothing is visible to it, then fire frenzy won't shoot at anything.

I'd pay 30 points for wings for a Demon Prince. 60 is too much. And I noticed tonight that hive tyrants are getting overcharged for wings too.

Crazed needs to either change back to the way it was last codex, or be removed completely. Dreadnoughts aren't supposed to be a liability.

bosky wrote:Reprint the 2nd edition codex with the Abaddon cover art redone.

I approve of this plan.

But no Typhus in 2nd....
I like my manreaper.

Noisy_Marine wrote:I'd pay 30 points for wings for a Demon Prince. 60 is too much. And I noticed tonight that hive tyrants are getting overcharged for wings too.

60 points to five that beast of a unit jump abilities is not too much.

juraigamer wrote:I'm reasonably happy with the codex, sure a few things could use some tweaking, such as making the friggin demon prince not die from massed bolter or lasgun fire so easily, but there is one glaring thing that bugs me...

WHY do the special characters, direct servants and favored by a single chaos god NOT have ETERNAL WARRIOR. WTF. Honestly. Also cultists would be great.

My personal favorite is Lucius the Eternal not having Eternal Warrior....

-Loki- wrote:

Noisy_Marine wrote:I'd pay 30 points for wings for a Demon Prince. 60 is too much. And I noticed tonight that hive tyrants are getting overcharged for wings too.

60 points to five that beast of a unit jump abilities is not too much.

60 points is too much for any one model to get wings. I don't care if it's a demon prince, hive tyrant, or what have you. 60 points is too much for any one upgrade.

Give me a real Codex so that I can start using my Thousand Sons again!

Noisy_Marine wrote:60 points is too much for any one model to get wings. I don't care if it's a demon prince, hive tyrant, or what have you. 60 points is too much for any one upgrade.

I'd pay 60 points to give a Phantom Titan or Warlord Titan wings.

I wouldn't pay 60 points for any current 40k model to get wings.

For a 40k model to pay 60 pts for wings, I'd need it to be like at least:

WS6 BSx S6 T6 W3 I5 A6 Sv3+/5++ with a Power Weapon

Basically, I need it to *reliably* kill 4 Space Marines or any common Vehicle on the Charge, and with only 4 Attacks, a Demon Prince isn't quite good enough to do that. 6 WS6+ Attacks will hit 4 Marines or 1 moving Vehicle, so that works just fine. 4, not so good.

If you want A5+1 WS7 S6 attacks, get a Daemon Prince with the Mark of Khorne.

one important thing we're missing is a suitable adjective. space wolves have wolf, blood angels have blood, we have..... nothing. personally I won't be satisfied until every single fething piece of wargear in the chaos codex is described as a demon this or a demon that. I want demon marines with demon bolters and a demon special rule running around doing demon things all over the battle field. with their demon-ness.

abaddon=gargamel wrote:Uhhh... I don't quite think that's what he meant. But that's a pretty good point. I, for one, would like to see the marks removed, except for Undivided. Nobody uses them. Also, possessed that don't suck, and maybe a couple pages showing a couple special rules (one good, one bad) that you can take for free and play a specific Legion.

wat

I want to be able to take four blastmasters in a unit of havos with MOS....Seems reasonable to me.

me too. sorry not marks. icons. you're either a noise marine or you arent. no more icons.

I play CSM as my main army and I still don't understand the difference....

Marks= Lords and stuff?
Icons= Grants marks to all models in unit?

currently marks only apply to hq choices. in the last codex most units could take them. the mark was the only difference between a unit of normal guys and a unit of cultists. putting the mark of slaanesh on your csm made them noise marines, for instance. icons had special 1 shot abilities, usually a shooting attack. now icons just make your guys half-assed cultists....

Samus_aran115:

A Mark of Chaos confers the associated bonus to the Marked model, with the Marks borne by specific units like Berzerkers being worked into their profiles. So a Chaos Lord with a Mark of Khorne has A4

A unit with an Icon also get the benefits of the particular Mark, and can act like a teleport/summoning beacon, but only so long as the model equipped with the Icon survives. When he is removed as a casualty, the unit no longer benefits from the Mark.

Nurglitch wrote:Samus_aran115:

A Mark of Chaos confers the associated bonus to the Marked model, with the Marks borne by specific units like Berzerkers being worked into their profiles. So a Chaos Lord with a Mark of Khorne has A4

A unit with an Icon also get the benefits of the particular Mark, and can act like a teleport/summoning beacon, but only so long as the model equipped with the Icon survives. When he is removed as a casualty, the unit no longer benefits from the Mark.

So then why the hell do we pay 40 points for a 4++?

And also, that's bullcrap. No wonder no one really puts icons on CSM units.

Firstly, it's 40pts for a 5+ Invulnerable save for Chaos Space Marines. For the purposes of comparison, that's a Force Dome that can't be dispelled, and that costs 1/2 of a Space Marine Librarian, doubles as a teleport homer, and diversifies a unit. That's 4pts apiece for a unit of ten. It works in close combat and against shooting, and gives Chaos Space Marines a Iv5+ against things like Battle Cannons, Plasma Cannons, Thunder Hammers, and the like.

Secondly, yes, people really do put Icons on Chaos Space Marine units. The most popular is the Icon of Chaos Glory, but I personally like the Icon of Khorne.

With all due respect, Possessed and Thousand Sons do not suck.

Get rid of generic Greater and Lesser Daemons in favour of the ones from Codex: Chaos Daemons. No Soul Grinder though-Chaos Space Marines already have the Defiler.

Add some special characters from the Word Bearers, Night Lords, Iron Warriors and Alpha Legion. Prehaps the Word Bearers could get the Warmonger (the Chaos Dreadnought from the Dark Apostle series). He could be a beefed-up Chaos Dreadnought without the "Crazed" rule, and a rule saying that all friendly units within 6" of him are Fearless, due to his inspiring presence.

Dreadclaw Drop Pods would be good. Legion special rules would be awesome-Hooray for Word Bearers! And how about a Chaos Land Speeder?

Seriously?

Lost and the Damned, and Slaves to Darkness.

These two books together have enough chaos to shake a tentical at. A way to make your own chaos army that is open ended enough that you can actually have chaos and not pretty ponys on crack.

Other then that, I want chaos in my chaos flakes. Not just spikey Space Marines.

Cultists, Zombies, Spawn of Chaos, Demon troops, Etc.etc.etc. If I want a platoon of IG in there as well, waving thier doom banner, then let them roll.

IG, Orks, Tau, ETC. I want all of the other factions in 40K to be able to have some inclusions under the chaos Trademark.

Blood for the greater good!!!

I just re-read the icon entry in the codex and just realized icons grant a unit the mark of that god. Didn't know that. So a unit of CSM with an icon of nurgle count for Epidemius's ability. At least until they lose the icon (which is why they suck - but the chaos glory one is still good).

I definitely agree that thousands don't suck. They won me games simply because of the built in invulnerable save. Possessed on the other hand, I have a hard time justifying. Cool models, but Demonkin is just so random. If I could have possessed with fleet every time, I'd seriously think about taking them. Throw an icon of Tzeentch in there and they are very resilient.

John, I don't know why you don't like DP's and defilers. They are part of a CSM force just like the marines themselves. Of course DP's are better than CSM, they have ascended to their ultimate goal.




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You know what? Why don't all codexes let you take 2 wound HQ's as 2 for 1 HQ choices? If they let demons and space wolves do it, why not let everyone do it? What's so special about wolves and demons that only they can take extra HQ's?

Squigsquasher wrote: Possessed and Thousand Sons do not suck.

Get rid of generic Greater and Lesser Daemons in favour of the ones from Codex: Chaos Daemons.

No Soul Grinder though-Chaos Space Marines already have the Defiler.

Add some special characters from the Word Bearers, Night Lords, Iron Warriors and Alpha Legion.

Prehaps the Word Bearers could get the Warmonger (the Chaos Dreadnought from the Dark Apostle series). He could be a beefed-up Chaos Dreadnought without the "Crazed" rule, and a rule saying that all friendly units within 6" of him are Fearless, due to his inspiring presence.

Dreadclaw Drop Pods would be good.

Legion special rules would be awesome-Hooray for Word Bearers!

And how about a Chaos Land Speeder?

Possesed and TS may not suck, but they're not so great, either...

Markable Daemons are a good compromise between full-on Chaos Daemons and one-size-fits-all Daemons. As I noted, the thing is, they have to be worse than regular 14-pt CSMs, so limits how good they can be. Sadly, Chaos Daemons aren't cheap enough to be horde-like (they should have been, and this can be fixed with the next Codex), so there's a disconnect.

Soul Grinder would be OK, but it'd need to be worse than the Chaos Daemons version, and different from the Defiler.

More Special Characters should be a given.

A Chaos Dread comparable to Bjorn would be fine.

Pods should also be a given.

Legion rules? Tied to the appropriate SC, sure!

No Chaos Landspeeders - they just don't have Skimmer tech. Copying SMs is the worst thing to do.


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Noisy_Marine wrote:John, I don't know why you don't like DP's and defilers. They are part of a CSM force just like the marines themselves. Of course DP's are better than CSM, they have ascended to their ultimate goal.

Is this to me? I like Daemon Princes & Defilers - they're properly characterful, far moreso than Chaos Lords and Chaos Dreads which merely mirror their SM counterparts.

More blood for the blood god.

coolyo294 wrote:More blood for the blood god.

You just can't get enough! BLOOD FOR THE KHORNE FLAKES!!!!