I liked the idea behind them, namely that they are Space Romans with Greek hints in there too, but I think that this is underplayed a bit by GW in order to make them the best damn poster boys they can be.
Truly, I quite like them. They aren't as prevalent as they used to be in terms of who does them, which is nice too.

They are the only chapter that could use The Chosen Ones by Dream Evil as a Theme Song, except all metal has been banned by the Inquisition.

KamikazeCanuck wrote:sigh, where's Manchu when you need him? Manchu now that your a mod I expect at least a 15% decrease in Ultrasmurfs are gay Threads!

Why not eradicate them completely?

Monster Rain wrote:

KamikazeCanuck wrote:sigh, where's Manchu when you need him? Manchu now that your a mod I expect at least a 15% decrease in Ultrasmurfs are gay Threads!

Why not eradicate them completely?

Impossible, they are like the Tyranid "without number". A 15% percent reduction is lofty goal as is; like winning The Battle of Maccrage.

KamikazeCanuck wrote:

Monster Rain wrote:

KamikazeCanuck wrote:sigh, where's Manchu when you need him? Manchu now that your a mod I expect at least a 15% decrease in Ultrasmurfs are gay Threads!

Why not eradicate them completely?

Impossible, they are like the Tyranid "without number". A 15% percent reduction is lofty goal as is; like winning The Battle of Maccrage.

Fear denies faith, brother. For those who truly believe in The Emperor, nothing is impossible.

Ultramarines are awesome. I have personally defended their honor here:

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/249758.page

It is rather a pity that they get so much grief for being awesome. Everyone knows the real blowhards are the Grey Knights.

I CALGAR!

Their fluff is awfully fanwankish, sure, but there's stuff to like about them. It's easy to see why theirs is the most frequently used geneseed; not having a lot of defining character is actually a good thing as far as the High Lords of Terra are concerned. They're not flamboyant like the Space Wolves, they're not one badly-painted landscape away from turning into Khornate berserkers like the Blood Angels, they're not harboring a deep, dark secret like the Dark Angels, they're not the Bible Belt with chainswords like the Black Templars - and they're not dressed up like mobile McDonald's restaurants like the Imperial Fists. They're the middle of the road professionals, basically, who specialize in nothing but are great at everything.

Manchu wrote:Ultramarines are awesome. I have personally defended their honor here:

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/249758.page

It is rather a pity that they get so much grief for being awesome. Everyone knows the real blowhards are the Grey Knights.

I CALGAR!

That thread's a good read from what I've seen so far.

As for their fluff being fanwankish... Well, that's true. :shrug:

Prussia59 -

1. Did I say I was a Christian? Did I say anything about scripture? I am mildly insulted by the implication a) that I am a Christian and would cite a biblical text as the be-all-and-end-all of an ethical argument, and b) that somehow for you basic ethical standards somehow necessarily make someone Christian. There are plenty of ethical people in the world, sir, and the majority of these, like the majority of people, are not Christian.

2. Violence is evil, especially in situations where there are other options. The crusades of the Imperium of Humanity are the attempts of a group more powerful than those around it to dominate them. That is evil. In order to justify the violence committed by the Imperium against all xenos races, you would need to prove a) that, categorically, the Imperium violates the rights of those under its control less than every xenos empire out there (remember, this is an empire that kills billions of its own people), b) that every xenos race would be so substantial a threat to the rule of law in such an empire that annihilation is the only option, and c) that the intentions of all xenos are so malevolent that diplomacy, peaceful cultural exchange, or even mutually exploitative trade, would be worse than war in the long run, and that therefore violence is the only option.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
^The above ethical standpoint is one grounded in the extension of the UDHR to include all sentient beings. If you prefer to operate on a different ethical system (i.e. cultural context, solidarity, or whatever), I will be happy to discuss its implications.

@Prussia59 & MekanobSamael: Relate it to the Ultramarines being cool/lame -OR- take it to the Off Topic Sub-Forum.

Apologies.

My general point goes back to the "goodness" of the Ultramarines. It sort of doesn't matter how much you believe in a "better society" when you mean a better society for *our* people, built on the corpses of indescribably murdered "others." For this reason, if you want to say that Ultramarines are cool, you're going to need to identify a shtick other than that they're "the good guys," because nobody in 40k is the good guys.

I maintain that the flavor function of the Ultramarines is as a baseline i.e. if nobody follows the rules, then not following the rules in a new and interesting way stops being cool. Basically, Ultramarines are kind of lame by themselves, but they're the necessary kind of lame that makes the different spins adopted by the other chapters worth having their own books for.

It's not very useful to evaluate the moral order of the 40k universe by holding it to external standards, perhaps especially those of the real world. Ive described this in the past as an "alignment shift." To use D&D terms, what was once lawful neutral slides into the grimdark version of lawful good. This is because the 40k universe does not share its basic principles with the real world. In the real world, for example, it may very well be possible that people will someday live together without desiring recourse to violence. This is not the case in the world of 40k; this is not even a possibility--except in the final and utter destruction of every divergence. And that's where puritan monodominance comes in. Against this moral landscape, the Ultramarines are indeed paragons of virtue.

So how are they space Romans? Other than how they're portrayed in artwork. I haven't read much on them.

M.

But..... Marneus Augustus "the god of war" Calgar is a pretty BAMF.

Everything about ultras makes me go "meh", they're just boring and overly vanilla in my eyes. Even so it reminds me of this post I found a while ago:

Infantryman wrote:So how are they space Romans? Other than how they're portrayed in artwork. I haven't read much on them.

M.

Well, in their general fluff, they have been shown to adhere to a legion-like organisation (as in Roman legion, not SM legion) as well as having a great deal of Latin-derived names, often specifically relating to famous members of the Roman Army. Scipio, I think, is a good example of this, being a reference to Scipio Africanus, who is most famous for his defeat of Hannibal during the Second Punic War. Cato Sicarius' first name is a reference to the unknown writer Dionysus Cato, who penned a famous treatise on morality and wisdom. They also have various references to Hellenic culture, such as the Fortress of Hera, and Corinth, in the planets and places that they can be found.
Of course, this is underplayed by a lot of people, including GW itself most recently with that new codex. Still, fluff moves on.
Fascinatingly, there are also references to ancient Hebrew Biblical characters. Remember Uriel Ventris? His name comes from Saint Uriel the Archangel, whose position in heaven is generally viewed as being that of the fourth Archangel of Heaven. Which company does Ventris command? The Fourth.
Sometimes, I love the Ultramarines.

Gorskar.da.Lost wrote:

Infantryman wrote:So how are they space Romans? Other than how they're portrayed in artwork. I haven't read much on them.

M.

Well, in their general fluff, they have been shown to adhere to a legion-like organisation (as in Roman legion, not SM legion) as well as having a great deal of Latin-derived names, often specifically relating to famous members of the Roman Army. Scipio, I think, is a good example of this, being a reference to Scipio Africanus, who is most famous for his defeat of Hannibal during the Second Punic War. Cato Sicarius' first name is a reference to the unknown writer Dionysus Cato, who penned a famous treatise on morality and wisdom. They also have various references to Hellenic culture, such as the Fortress of Hera, and Corinth, in the planets and places that they can be found.
Of course, this is underplayed by a lot of people, including GW itself most recently with that new codex. Still, fluff moves on.
Fascinatingly, there are also references to ancient Hebrew Biblical characters. Remember Uriel Ventris? His name comes from Saint Uriel the Archangel, whose position in heaven is generally viewed as being that of the fourth Archangel of Heaven. Which company does Ventris command? The Fourth.
Sometimes, I love the Ultramarines.

You just have to look at the Sicarius model to see the roman influence. I also seem to remember a limited edition company champion with a very Hellenic helmet plume.

Also, if you read the background of Guilliman you will see that Macragge had a Roman Republic-like government. One of the two consuls was Guilliman's adoptive father. The other one staged a coup to impose his individual rule and then Guilliman defeated him. Of course, he became the sole consul thereafter. All very Roman . . .

Ah, it's Caesar and Pompy.

M.

Yeah So glad that they are made out to be bad guys in DLS Death of The Emperor stuff.

They are really irritating. The 'Space marines' codex should be called 'The ultramarines codex with one picture of a salamanders land raider'. Pleh. They are the snobbish goody two-shoes chapter.

Ultramarines are the most annoying chapter there is; look at the SM codex, pretty much everything is Ultramarines this, Ultramarines that. They didn't do anything relevant during the Horus Heresy and now go around proclaiming how great they are because Rowboat Girlyman wrote a book and they spend all their time reading and memorizing it and claiming this makes them greater than all other chapters.

Lokirfellheart wrote:They are really irritating. The 'Space marines' codex should be called 'The ultramarines codex with one picture of a salamanders land raider'. Pleh. They are the snobbish goody two-shoes chapter.

And they're snobbish... How?

I agree that they're overexposed, but that's not a reason to hate the Ultramarines, that's a reason to hate GW's advertising policy. If the same thing happened with the Salamanders, would everyone be complaining?

CommissarCandlestick wrote:Ultramarines are the most annoying chapter there is; look at the SM codex, pretty much everything is Ultramarines this, Ultramarines that.

Might have to do with the facts that A.) Ultramarines WERE the original specific Space Marine codex, and B.) Matt Ward is a fanboy.

CommissarCandlestick wrote: They didn't do anything relevant during the Horus Heresy

And?

CommissarCandlestick wrote: and now go around proclaiming how great they are because Rowboat Girlyman wrote a book and they spend all their time reading and memorizing it and claiming this makes them greater than all other chapters.

As opposed to thinking they're better than the others for following the teachings of Russ, or better than the other chapters for going on holy crusades against evil, or...

Every chapter/legion had a superiority complex when it comes to their tactics. EVERY chapter thinks their Primarch was the best. Do you think the Space Wolves are going to suddenly start praising the Black Templar's crusades or the Codex Astartes?

From what I've gathered, most Ultramarine hate goes under one of these categories.
-They're vanilla.
-They're overexposed.
-Matt Ward is a rabid fanboy and made the other generic SM chapters look bad.
-Guilliman was mean to the other Legions after the Heresy, never mind how reasonable his ideas were.
-It's cool to hate them.

Hmm I feel like posting my chapters to show what A Space Marine Chapter like the ultramarines should look like.

Why do so many hate on the Ultramarines?

because Marneus Calgar is THE most powerful person in The Imperium of Man. Think about it, he controls the whole Ultima Segmentum. How many chapters are successors to the Ultramarines? And all are implied to work with them. He could, if he wanted to, easily take Terra.

ToBeWilly wrote:Why do so many hate on the Ultramarines?

because Marneus Calgar is THE most powerful person in The Imperium of Man. Think about it, he controls the whole Ultima Segmentum. How many chapters are successors to the Ultramarines? And all are implied to work with them. He could, if he wanted to, easily take Terra.

Its everywhere.
That is abosutely Bull as my Chapter rules 8 systems in that area. Along with like 200 other chapters.
No If he went against terra. The Entire imperium would kick his ass.

ToBeWilly wrote:
because Marneus Calgar is THE most powerful person in The Imperium of Man.

He is also the HARDEST working man in Showbiz. That's something you'll never read in an Ultramarine novel though

Iur_tae_mont wrote:

He is also the HARDEST working man in Showbiz. That's something you'll never read in a Uriel Ventris Novel though

Yeah. The most powerful man I think would have to be the Lords of Terra, or Creed or Commander Dante or Helbrietch

Lokirfellheart wrote:They are really irritating. The 'Space marines' codex should be called 'The ultramarines codex with one picture of a salamanders land raider'. Pleh. They are the snobbish goody two-shoes chapter.

I don't believe I've ever seen a less accurate post.

I think I need to bring DLS stuff so that we can show how bad the Ultramarines are if the Emperor Died

How The Mighty Fall - The Ultramarines & The New Imperium

• 3 years after the Emperor's death, and The New Imperium (based in the Calth System) has linked with several of its
neighbouring systems to create a new and broader Calth System. The Primarch Guilliman leads the system, seemingly
for the benefit of mankind. However, the strain is starting to show, especially as he must breach his own
Codex Astartes to ensure there are enough to police this new and larger realm.
• Guilliman arranges a democratic election when it becomes clear that several worlds in the New Imperium are unhappy with
his overall military and diplomatic leadership. The two other parties who are in the running is invited to Guilliman’s
personal palace to discuss the upcoming election, however their ship suffers a severe ‘accident’ enroute claiming both
their lives. The elections are postponed.

2.8 years after the Death of the God-Emperor of Terra

• The Culling of Calth: An event that will forever go down in the history books. Several thousand of political protesters
congregate outside Ultramarine bases all over the New Imperium. They claim that the deaths of two leading
revolutionary figures were orchestrated by the Ultramarines High Command, with particular vehemence toward
Guilliman himself. The protesters draw comparisons between Guilliman’s Paranoia and Political orchestrations to those
of The Arch-Heretic himself: Horus.

• As soon as these words are uttered, Guilliman orders an instant cull of the protesters in the interest of ‘maintaining order’.
Hundreds upon thousands of people are butchered in the space of a few hours by the zealous Astartes. News travels
fast around the New Imperium, with a particular demonising of the Primarch himself.

• There are some whispers that the Primarchs miraculous return two years prior may be tainted by the forces of the Warp,
with some going even farther by suggesting that the Ultramarines have become unwitting pawns to the Dark Gods.
Revolution is brewing in the New Imperium.
Taken from Dark Lord Sean's Work Part 1 Read the rest of the ongoing series in the Articles thread!

Alright, seriously. People going on and on about why Ultramarines are stupid and annoying is about ten times more annoying than the Ultramarines themselves. Yeah, they are overused, so frikking what? Get over it.

GalacticDefender wrote:Alright, seriously. People going on and on about why Ultramarines are stupid and annoying is about ten times more annoying than the Ultramarines themselves. Yeah, they are overused, so frikking what? Get over it.

You didn't read my quote :( Me sad.
Anyway it is annoying when people complain about them. But the people who brag about being Ultramarines really grinds my gears.

Infantryman wrote:You would think the Imperial Fists, being as they guard Terra, would be the poster boys. But nope.

M.

Guilliman wrote the codex not Dorn, so the Imperial Fists changed over to do things the Ultramarines way, not vice-versa and so the Ultramarines are the poster boys. Anyway, aren't the Imperial Fists a little crazy too in regards for their shame at letting the Emperor down?

cadbren wrote:

Infantryman wrote:You would think the Imperial Fists, being as they guard Terra, would be the poster boys. But nope.

M.

Guilliman wrote the codex not Dorn, so the Imperial Fists changed over to do things the Ultramarines way, not vice-versa and so the Ultramarines are the poster boys. Anyway, aren't the Imperial Fists a little crazy too in regards for their shame at letting the Emperor down?

Yeah but Dorn went out like a pure badass. Taking entire ship with him. Unlike Robute Guiliman who went down like wallstreet.

CommissarCandlestick wrote:Ultramarines are the most annoying chapter there is; look at the SM codex, pretty much everything is Ultramarines this, Ultramarines that. They didn't do anything relevant during the Horus Heresy and now go around proclaiming how great they are because Rowboat Girlyman wrote a book and they spend all their time reading and memorizing it and claiming this makes them greater than all other chapters.

Actually, it's largely Matt Ward that goes around proclaiming how great they are, not the Ultramarines themselves. As far as I know, they don't have a propaganda company.

Their primarch wrote the book on how to be a Space Marine, and his chapter is the best exemplar of it. Even the Blood Angels are a codex chapter, though you wouldn't know it by looking at the average BA list. The overwhelming majority of chapters are codex chapters, with only a tiny handful of deviants like the Space Wolves and the Black Templars out there. There's a reason for that.

ToBeWilly wrote:Why do so many hate on the Ultramarines?

because Marneus Calgar is THE most powerful person in The Imperium of Man. Think about it, he controls the whole Ultima Segmentum. How many chapters are successors to the Ultramarines? And all are implied to work with them. He could, if he wanted to, easily take Terra.

He controls the realm of Ultramar which is but a tiny speck compared with the vastness of the Ultima Segmentum. Ultramar consists of eight solar systems ruled from Macragge. That's eight solar systems out of countless thousands, the entire Tau Empire is within the Ultima Segmentum too; it's vast.
The successor chapters work with them for sure, I mean the body of the primarch is on Macragge which would be a huge draw for the other chapters to visit but their loyalty is not to Calgar, it's to the Emperor, to the Lords of Terra and the vision of Guilliman.
Calgar and his chapter are special because they are the senior chapter, they got to keep the name of the old legion and they got to keep the best of the legions relics including the Primarch himself, they are not the legion though and have no more influence than any other chapter. If Calgar and the Ultramarines turned then the other chapters including the successors which account for half of all space marines would attack him. It would be interesting to consider if the chapter would be rebuilt in such an event, I think with all the Ultramarine geneseed out there it would be simply because of the history of the chapter. I think it's one of those core chapters that the Imperium would want to keep, even if that required the complete purging of it's existing members.


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Asherian Command wrote:

cadbren wrote:

Infantryman wrote:You would think the Imperial Fists, being as they guard Terra, would be the poster boys. But nope.

M.

Guilliman wrote the codex not Dorn, so the Imperial Fists changed over to do things the Ultramarines way, not vice-versa and so the Ultramarines are the poster boys. Anyway, aren't the Imperial Fists a little crazy too in regards for their shame at letting the Emperor down?

Yeah but Dorn went out like a pure badass. Taking entire ship with him. Unlike Robute Guiliman who went down like wallstreet.

And there's another difference, the Ultramarines' primarch is still alive, the Imperial Fists' primarch is dead. If being a badass actually meant anything in the real world then people like Dorn would be revered more than they are, successful people like Guilliman who do more than suicidal charges are recognized for their achievements.

Seaward wrote:Actually, it's largely Matt Ward that goes around proclaiming how great they are, not the Ultramarines themselves. As far as I know, they don't have a propaganda company.

I think it's because they have an attractive, easy-to-paint color scheme. But, yeah, Matt Ward loves them even more than me.

MekanobSamael wrote:Prussia59 -

1. Did I say I was a Christian? Did I say anything about scripture? I am mildly insulted by the implication a) that I am a Christian and would cite a biblical text as the be-all-and-end-all of an ethical argument, and b) that somehow for you basic ethical standards somehow necessarily make someone Christian. There are plenty of ethical people in the world, sir, and the majority of these, like the majority of people, are not Christian.

2. Violence is evil, especially in situations where there are other options. The crusades of the Imperium of Humanity are the attempts of a group more powerful than those around it to dominate them. That is evil. In order to justify the violence committed by the Imperium against all xenos races, you would need to prove a) that, categorically, the Imperium violates the rights of those under its control less than every xenos empire out there (remember, this is an empire that kills billions of its own people), b) that every xenos race would be so substantial a threat to the rule of law in such an empire that annihilation is the only option, and c) that the intentions of all xenos are so malevolent that diplomacy, peaceful cultural exchange, or even mutually exploitative trade, would be worse than war in the long run, and that therefore violence is the only option.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
^The above ethical standpoint is one grounded in the extension of the UDHR to include all sentient beings. If you prefer to operate on a different ethical system (i.e. cultural context, solidarity, or whatever), I will be happy to discuss its implications.

Grin. I totally started an ethics debate on Dakkadakka.

Anyway, sir, for your first point, sir, I was operating under the theory that, in many circumstances, the people that state that violence in any way, shape, or form, use the good book as a source. And, to say that most ethical people are not Christian is insulting, of course, but I shrug that off as a mere unfounded insult and a degrading one at that.

For your second point. Sir. You are partially correct. Operating under the just war theory, the imperium's actions are unfounded, due to the fact that not all of the xenos that it conquers are threatening it, or, in an extension of the more modern theory, that the xenos violate the human rights of those under its control. However, in the grim darkness of the far future, it does the extreme and sometimes immoral things that it does to protect humanity as a whole. A terrible concept, to be sure, but to say that it could survive without them, what with the great evils that seek to destroy it, is unreasonable.

Critique of your critique: your first example, a) that of proving that the imperium of man violates itself more than the xenos, is absurd. It does not have to prove that it is more oppressive than anyone else. That is insane. b and c) Annihilation is not the only option. Nobody said it was. Does the imperium use exterminatus on every planet with an alien? No. On a more general note, we assume that aliens are good guys. Aliens are alien. The likelihood that 1 in 100 alien races will try to use our negotiation to subvert the imperium is too great for the imperium to ignore. Therefore, it has developed the policies it has to prevent even one alien from taking advantage, for that instance would mean disaster. Systems have been lost this way. The tau, one of the most beneficent races, humanity tolerated. Therefore, it took a swathe of worlds, killing the humans that defended themselves. If the imperium had simply crusaded away in the first place, many human lives would have been saved.


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GalacticDefender wrote:Alright, seriously. People going on and on about why Ultramarines are stupid and annoying is about ten times more annoying than the Ultramarines themselves. Yeah, they are overused, so frikking what? Get over it.

Well, I have never read ANYTHING that dissed the Ultras. So, my good sir, that was quite uncalled for.

Your most ungrateful replier,
Prussia 5 esquire 9

Manchu wrote:@Prussia59 & MekanobSamael: Relate it to the Ultramarines being cool/lame -OR- take it to the Off Topic Sub-Forum.

@Prussia59: Do I really have to reiterate?

prussia59 wrote:
Furthermore, they have it rather easy, and because they have no faults or blemishes, it takes no faith on their part to follow the emperor. The Blood Angels or the Space Wolves, on the other hand, have obvious and self-destructive traits, but they strive through such obstacles nonetheless, and keep their oaths to emperor and imperium. That takes tremendous strength of faith, whereas the Ultras have no such obstacles - they are simply and strictly goody-goody.
(*smile*)

And, like, why does nobody care that I said this? I thought it was a good point.

prussia59 wrote:

prussia59 wrote:
Furthermore, they have it rather easy, and because they have no faults or blemishes, it takes no faith on their part to follow the emperor. The Blood Angels or the Space Wolves, on the other hand, have obvious and self-destructive traits, but they strive through such obstacles nonetheless, and keep their oaths to emperor and imperium. That takes tremendous strength of faith, whereas the Ultras have no such obstacles - they are simply and strictly goody-goody.
(*smile*)

And, like, why does nobody care that I said this? I thought it was a good point.

Well, I don't believe the Space Wolves have self-destructive traits, aside from the possibility of terminal superstition/stupidity, but either way. The Ultramarines are nifty precisely because, as I said earlier in this thread, they don't have some element of wackiness to give them flavor. That's also why most post-2nd Founding chapters are from Ultramarines geneseed. The Ultramarines are the quiet professionals of the Space Marine pantheon, and that's attractive to a lot of people. As is their Roman stuff, I suppose.

Ehh. What about the Raven Guard and the Imperial Fists?

Raven Guard did a mass Space marine cloning Effort that failed.

Imperial Fists couldn't let a grudge go and were almost wiped out by Iron Warriors after the Siege of Terra.

Iur_tae_mont wrote:Raven Guard did a mass Space marine cloning Effort that failed.

Imperial Fists couldn't let a grudge go and were almost wiped out by Iron Warriors after the Siege of Terra.

Then What about the Salamanders? OR the oh wait.
Or the oh wait....
I know the wait....
Damn......
I know the White Scars!

Salamanders Follow the Codex as well as the doctrines of their own Promethean Cult.

White Scars focus more on a tribal Orginization and they don't use Dreadnoughts.

Asherian Command wrote:Ehh. What about the Raven Guard and the Imperial Fists?

I'm a big fan of the Raven Guard, despite them being freaky ninjas. However, they have some geneseed mutations going, which is probably what makes them a second-choice candidate for the High Lords of Terra when choosing a geneseed for a new founding.

Imperial Fists? I really don't know why they're not at least close to parity with the Ultramarines. It might be because Dorn was a specialist, whereas Rowboat was an all-rounder.

Seaward wrote:The Ultramarines are the quiet professionals of the Space Marine pantheon, and that's attractive to a lot of people.

I was trying to figure out how to put into words why I like the Ultramarines, but I couldn't have said it any better than this.

I don't know if any Space Marine chapter (Bar the Raven Guard) can be classified as "quiet."

prussia59 wrote:Well, I have never read ANYTHING that dissed the Ultras. So, my good sir, that was quite uncalled for.

Bull testicles. Just read this thread if you want to see Ultramarine dissing.

prussia59 wrote:

prussia59 wrote:
Furthermore, they have it rather easy, and because they have no faults or blemishes, it takes no faith on their part to follow the emperor. The Blood Angels or the Space Wolves, on the other hand, have obvious and self-destructive traits, but they strive through such obstacles nonetheless, and keep their oaths to emperor and imperium. That takes tremendous strength of faith, whereas the Ultras have no such obstacles - they are simply and strictly goody-goody.
(*smile*)

And, like, why does nobody care that I said this? I thought it was a good point.

Because it's ridiculous? I don't see people attacking the Salamanders for those same traits.

There is no prominent (i.e., first founding or has-its-own-codex Chapter) that I specifically dislike. The closest I come is choosing SW over DA in their old rivalry. Doesn't mean I hate DA, however. I don't get the Ultrahate. I think all it is just more of the usual internet-empowerment of bored preteens/teens/adults who never got over being teens to loudly broadcast through the 4chan&etc megaphone opinions they don't actually hold and cannot substantially back up.

A reason I like the Ultramarines (and why I decided that my Marines were a (unofficial) successor chapter of the Ultras), is because they're one of the few, if not the only, Chapter to remember what the original purpose of the Astartes was - the eventual spread of Humanity as the rulers of the Galaxy.

Note that - HUMANITY. So many of the other famous Marine chapters fight for their own glory or for other reasons (Templars crusades, Dark Angel's hunt after the Fallen, Space Wolves... just fighting. Then drinking. And more fighting!), while the Ultramarine's ultimate goal is still the same as from the 31st millennium.

I'd say SW, Sallies, and Raven Guard are all pretty devoted to that goal, too. Along with the boys in blue, they're what you might call the more "mortal-friendly" chapters.

Manchu wrote:There is no prominent (i.e., first founding or has-its-own-codex Chapter) that I specifically dislike. The closest I come is choosing SW over DA in their old rivalry. Doesn't mean I hate DA, however. I don't get the Ultrahate. I think all it is just more of the usual internet-empowerment of bored preteens/teens/adults who never got over being teens to loudly broadcast through the 4chan&etc megaphone opinions they don't actually hold and cannot substantially back up.

Some of that, sure, but I can understand people being a little ticked that Ward decided to make C:SM all about him giving a lapdance to the Ultras. There's, what, five or six Ultramarine SCs in there? That's pretty excessive, not to mention that the entire rest of the book is basically about them.

Actually, the 4th edition Codex by Pete Haines and Graham "Uriel Ventris" McNeill was the real UM lovefest. Ward just picked up where they left off. IMO, dropping traits/drawbacks was not so much about giving UM the spotlight as it was a reaffirmation of the main division between SM--i.e., between Codex-adherent and Codex-divergent Marines. As it stands, you really can build any Codex-adherent Chapter out of the 5th ed. SM dex.* Yes, three UM SCs were added but we also got three more non-UM SCs (two of which reinstated Chapters that had previously had SCs) as well as getting all three of the non-UM SCs from the 4th ed. book.

But your point still stands: UM now have six SCs. So what is the justification? As you said, UM are the Codex-adherent template. They are described in greater detail than any other Chapter. For hardcore fans, this is great: everything has already been decided and you can go and model it. For those who don't want to swing DIY but still like to come up with their own fluff, playing any of the other Codex-adherent chapters is a great option. The new BA dex shows a great parallel to this thinking: yes, the book is dominated by the BA but the Flesh Tearers get their Chapter Master. Technically, the Flesh Tearers have only one unit--but they actually have every unit available to the BA with the exception of BA SCs. And you can work around even that, of course, thanks to counts-as ingenuity.

Let me also remind you that the UM also had two elites choices in the 4th ed. dex that were both mainstreamed by Ward: the Tyrannic vets (now much better as Sternguard) and the UM Honor Guard.

*Although, there really should be an IH SC.

Calgar, Tigurius, Sicarius and Cassius have been around for yonks. Telion and Chronus were added as specials granted, perhaps Chronus could have come from one of the other chapters like the Imperial Fists or Iron Hands.
Yes, 6 UM SCs.

The codex does double as the Ultramarine Codex but so what? It uses the Ultras as an example of a codex chapter and gives a whole lot of background info about them at the same time.

Seaward wrote:

Manchu wrote:There is no prominent (i.e., first founding or has-its-own-codex Chapter) that I specifically dislike. The closest I come is choosing SW over DA in their old rivalry. Doesn't mean I hate DA, however. I don't get the Ultrahate. I think all it is just more of the usual internet-empowerment of bored preteens/teens/adults who never got over being teens to loudly broadcast through the 4chan&etc megaphone opinions they don't actually hold and cannot substantially back up.

Some of that, sure, but I can understand people being a little ticked that Ward decided to make C:SM all about him giving a lapdance to the Ultras. There's, what, five or six Ultramarine SCs in there? That's pretty excessive, not to mention that the entire rest of the book is basically about them.

I agree with this. To make matters worse, not only are there a ton of characters, each is "the best" at what they do. Marneus is the ultimate commander, Telion the ultimate sniper, Chronos the ultimate tanker (in fluff anyway), Sicarius the ultimate rapid assault tactician and so on and so forth. I actually quite like the fleshed out fluff for the Ultramarines (they have a ton of stories out there) but does get a little irksome that they literally have NO flaws. Even if they didn't translate to the table-top, it would be refreshing to see one of the staff or BL writers to write a story where the Ultramarines did NOT overcome every obstacle to beating face. Literally the only one I can think of is the Heresy Era Alpha Legion vs. Ultramarines story.

This is why I like the Salamanders. They are the ultimate "journey man" space marine chapter. They do one thing well (arms and armor) but most of the stories you see about them are performing the relatively un-sung actions that marines perform every day ( re-guard action protecting refugee convoys, assaulting Roks on Armageddon, particpating in (but not dominating) The Badab War. Their history isn't one long litany of amazing victories against seemingly impossible odds (although all marine histories are exactly that). They suffered during the heresy, they didn't come out stronger because of it, the don't command the adulation of an entire sector, they don't have the best of everything - but they persevere. They also never lose that core "decency" that is exemplified by the humility of Tu'Shan in ceding command to Dante or by coming to blows with the Exemplars over war crimes against those refugees.

If you think Ultramarines lack flaws, you're not reading their fluff closely enough. Either that or you don't think inflexibility-unto-arrogance is much of a flaw. And how about the tension between Sicarius and Agemman? If you want to think Ultramarines are awful then I'm sure you can. The same attitude could be directed at any Chapter.

that's just it. I don't think the ultras are awful, Manchu. As I said, I like their fluff - I just wish the flaws were given a little more light. The Agemman/Sicarius rift is given one? sentence's worth of mention that I know of.

Granted, I have not read most of the BL books - most of my fluff knowledge comes from the various rulebooks. I like the play between the traditionalists in Marneus and such and the "radicals" in Cassius with his Tyranic War Vets.

At the end of the day, I simply prefer the Salamander's stuff.

I don't know that the Salamanders really have a flaw. They are the real SMs-next-door, while the UM are cold and dictatorial war-worshipers. Like IRL fascists, they do keep the trains running on time. Don't get me wrong, I like the Sallies. Even in the GrimDark, someone needs to exhibit some compassion. (Are you saying that this is their flaw?) But they do not get to the essence of Space Marine--that would be the UM and, to an ever so slightly lesser degree, the IF.

I had forgotten about Cassius's forboding weirdness. Another great example of the little cracks that belie the UM's appearance of perfection.

I'd say the Salamander's flaw would be the Promethean Cult, and when you really get down to it that would be the greatest flaw ever for Space Marines.

I dislike most marine chapters with a general equality.

The first cheesy SM army I played against when I was 15 was Ultramarines (and I got the floor wiped with me by a much more experienced and older gamer).

That said, I'm a model and painting based 40k hobbyist. the Marneus Calgar & command squad, when painted to a high standard, are possibly the most riveting models in the 40k universe. I want to play UM just so I can buy, paint, and field Calgar. I read UM batreps just so I can see if the marine player fielded him, and then, to see how he performed.

It's a love-hate thing: love calgar, hate marines. hate vanilla, but hate space wolves more.

I think what it really comes down to is people wish there was some more fluff/support/SC for other chapters. I for one would like more Raven Guard stuff. But hey I'm just happy to get some FW love. Besides if I really wanted to I could just get a Marnius Calgar model, shave off all the Ultra Marines logos (admittedly might take me a long time) put some Raven guard symbols on him and bam he's now not the Ultra Marines chapter master but the raven guard one. The way I see it they are "bland" so you can go "hey I like this character I think I'll use him in my whatever space marine chapter."

@Iur-tae-mont: How so? It makes them more brave, more noble, more determined fighters/characters.

Salamanders were my first really serious army ( ie I kind of knew what I was doing) back in the day when they were I3 and had melta proof tanks and such.

I never really thought of them as having a flaw (other than being slow) - just not being portrayed as OMG Awesomesauce! They have character without it being another version of "Space Marine Chapter X performed a mass drop into the center of enemy lines - killed a gazillion dudes, lost none in return."

We're agreeing with each other but internet social norms make it impossible for us to actually admit it. I like the Salamander fluff (no obviously huge flaw), I like the Ultramarines fluff (little cracks and intrigues and all), but I prefer the Salamanders' fluff to Ultramarines'. What I DIDN"T like was Matt Ward's "ULTRAMARINES ARE THE BEST AT EVERYTHING" treatment in the codex.

In the end, all the codex chapters have better fluff than the SW, BA, DA, or BT (IMHO)

I've been torn about starting Codex Marines since the 5th ed book came out for the very reasons you describe, Sgt_Scruffy. Trying to decide between Ultramarines and Sallies is nigh impossible for me. I think if FW were to make a Salamander Dreadnought (that looked as good as the SW one), the tie would finally be broken. Yeah, Sallies are great and I think you'll find Matt Ward gave them a tremendous amount of love in the form of Vulkan He'stan. I don't think you'll find those six UM SCs in a quarter as many SM armies as He'stan.

Manchu, I would say it's a Flaw because it deviates from the Codex. It's still the greatest damn flaw ever, but would technically count.

Yeah, IF I were ever to do marines again (unlikely as I find being a filthy xenos too much fun) it would be a hard toss up between sallies, crimson fists, and ultramarines

Seaward wrote:

Asherian Command wrote:Ehh. What about the Raven Guard and the Imperial Fists?

I'm a big fan of the Raven Guard, despite them being freaky ninjas. However, they have some geneseed mutations going, which is probably what makes them a second-choice candidate for the High Lords of Terra when choosing a geneseed for a new founding.

Imperial Fists? I really don't know why they're not at least close to parity with the Ultramarines. It might be because Dorn was a specialist, whereas Rowboat was an all-rounder.

It's also because the Ultramarines gene-seed has largely remained unchanged over the millennia, whereas the Imperial Fists' gene-seed has slight flaws in it which (if I remember correctly) means that their Betcher's Gland doesn't work anymore. Essentially, they can't spit acid.

Not that spitting acid comes to much...

M.

never even seen anything in any book where a Space Marine used the acid spitting powers. You'd think something like that would be used at every oppertunity.

It comes up from time to time. It was in one of Dembski-Bowden's Night Lords yarns most recently, I believe.

Yeah, it's been around for as long as they've been talking about the Marine organs. I -think- it's less that they squirt acid than their saliva being strongly acidic. Might take them a while to damage anything worse than a bolt pistol could do.

M.

He (Talos, I believe) hocks one into a temple assassin's face and pretty much ruins her day.

Yeah Ultramarines I have always suspected of having something bad inside them.

As far as the ultras go, I have to admit that my group does tend to pick on them. A LOT. But mostly because of experience. We've played... 5 games? Probably 5. that included the Ultramarines, all different players, we play in the basement of a game store so people drop in and out a lot, and every single time the player suffered from one major problem: we call it the "Ultramehrines are best" syndrome. The players would automatically believe that though they may have fewer marines than the enemy has of whatever, the marines are "good at everything" which means that they can take on any threat no matter the situation. I am frequently paired with these players.

"No, don't worry about it. I'll take care of these orks with my ULTRAMARINES!" the player then assaulted a 30 ork hard boyz mob with a tactical squad of marines, honest to god while shouting "SPACE MARINES!" at the top of his lungs, and then in a single round was slaughtered to a man.

And the sad part is, in that particular situation at least, I had Bjorn the fell handed not 8 inches away, hadn't moved yet, well within assault range. The orks didn't have rokkit launchers, Klaws, anything that could even touch him.

But "the ultramariens are the best at everything."

I know this is a bit of a generalization, but it happens every time. It happens when an opponent simply cannot understand that a group of blood claws with chainswords and bolter pistols can be "better at close combat than Ultramarines!" (direct quote) or that "Ultramarines can't beat Tau? What the ****?" at long range. It seems to be a persistant problem that I believe is due to the Ultras, and the space marines as a whole, being built up unduly in the fluff. That, I believe, is the root of the problem, and it could be easily fixed.

Plus, I still think they look like American football players. Maybe it's just my friend who painted up the "Miami Space Dolphins" chapter. But I can't shake it out of my head.

Lol. don't worry your not the only one. I am SM player but I see every marine as a single unit basically and every marine I lose I try and improve my loses and go in for the kill and try ensure nothing bad happens to the rest of my forces. Spreading out my forces= no no. I keep them together to provide fire support to each other.

I use my Marines tactically and each marine I lose will lower my chances of winning. I have a ton of marines because of this.

In 4th ed. I ran a artificer army.
Where I had 2 veteran squads that had +2 armor and were more powerful than terminators D:.
They would go into assualt against a massive army of necrons, daemons you name it they killed it. 50 attacks from just one SQUAD. I miss 4th ed space marines....

That.... might be the issue. Everyone's used to the super-powerful fourth edition marine, and they think "COOL! I can afford MORE MARINES!" and they don't stop to think "Wait, maybe I should be a bit more careful with these..."

I'll have to investigate this phenomenon more fully.

Manchu wrote:He (Talos, I believe) hocks one into a temple assassin's face and pretty much ruins her day.

Yep. Then again, it's hard to remain cheerful when your face is being eaten off by someone else's spit.

Dear god. I can't believe there are four pages of this stuff.

Ok, I play Ultras. Have played them since 1989. My first attempt to paint marines was to make Crimson Fists. Yep. Know why? They were on the box of thirty you could get for 20$. Plus they were on the cover of Rogue Trader. And they had a cool background story in the book about nearly being wiped out. But then I started reading the Warhammer Siege book. There was a story about "Fort Maccrage" and how the Ultramarines under Lt. Cmdr (yes they used to have that rank) Prometheus held out against the Tyranids but his whole company got wiped out. They even had a map for Fort Maccrage. It had a Zulu feel to the whole story. So went with Ultras. Then they evolved. Maccrage became more of a planet in Ultramar. Prometheus became Invictus and more story lines and Fluff were added. Ever since I have played marines. I like it. I like the marine concept and that's my preference. I also like the hints at a Roman background as well. So go cry in your pillow if you hate the Ultras. I could care less. I've been flying Ultra coulours now for over 20 years and I could care less about the tantrums people take about it. Over the years I've also played Flesh Tearers. Even before the new BA codex. they even had rules for them in an Index Astartes. I liked their background.

Personally I think people's issue is with the 15 year old playing anything. They just happen to play Ultras more because it is the poster child. get over it . You were 15 once as well.
Also the venom (it's a game folks, a game) that some people spew is just as bad as the 15 year old saying Ultras are the best.

And from a fluff point, let's see.

The dark Angels spent most of the Heresy fighting each other. Hmn...
The Raven Guard, Salamanders and Ironhands were crippled in a few hours. Hmn...
The Space Wolves were tricked into attacking the Thousand Sons then distracted during the siege of terra. Hmn...
Only the White Scars, Fists and Blood Angels did any of the fighting on Earth. (And the Blood Angels went into a depression after that one)
The Ultras fought the Word Bearers on Calth and won.

Sounds like some other chapters performed a heck of a lot worse than the Ultras hmn? I would even say some of the Primarchs and legions were a bit naive or failing that incompetent.

And one last thing. Don't take this the wrong way but I know some of you will. If you could live anywhere in the 40K universe given the choice you would be picking Ultramar. And don't give me that "No way man, I'd be a Space Wolf getting drunk and fighting on Death worlds." Actually you wouldn't. Reality check. Look at what you are doing now. Now look at me now back to you. Sadly you aren't me but you could smell like me. In reality you probably be doing the same crap you are now. Only just in the future. And for most of you (myself included) you are not going to be space marines living it rough. In fact most of you wouldn't want that life anyway.

Now everyone in this thread give me your lunch money.

Asherian Command wrote:

ToBeWilly wrote:Why do so many hate on the Ultramarines?

because Marneus Calgar is THE most powerful person in The Imperium of Man. Think about it, he controls the whole Ultima Segmentum. How many chapters are successors to the Ultramarines? And all are implied to work with them. He could, if he wanted to, easily take Terra.

Its everywhere.
That is abosutely Bull as my Chapter rules 8 systems in that area. Along with like 200 other chapters.
No If he went against terra. The Entire imperium would kick his ass.

I know that this is an old posts,but here's something about Terra defences.DLS forgets something when he writes about naval conflict in Sol system,I don't want to be a nitpick.

He [Ragnar] considered their approach. He knew that they had passed countless fleets and fortresses as they had swung in from the ultra-solar jump points. They had passed the armoured moons of Jupiter and the forge world of Mars. They had been subjected to hundreds of challenges and scans and they had been boarded twice. It had been a long drawn out process but it was only to be expected.

The world down there was better protected than any other in human history. There would not be a Second Battle of Earth if the terrible lords of the Imperium could help it. Even now the sky was filled with satellite fortresses; great weapon installations with enough firepower to destroy battle fleets. The whole of sublunar space was crowded with warships.
- Space Wolf: The Second Omnibus, pg. 56

Back to topic.

I think that Ultramarines although they have sometimes terrible fluff are redemable in some aspects(same ones which make them Mary Sues,well mostly).

Crantor wrote:Personally I think people's issue is with the 15 year old playing anything.

To be fair, fifteen year olds are deeply conflicted on the issue of Ultramarines. Many of them are torn because they played them (and tried to paint them) for the last two years before turning fifteen. But now they've turned fifteen, and life is SRSBZNS. It's time to be cool and there's nothing cooler (for fifteen year olds playing 40k) than hating on Ultramarines.

Okay, okay. I'm just joking. In all seriousness, I like you younger gamers out there.










But I like Ultramarines better.

Asherian Command wrote:

GalacticDefender wrote:Alright, seriously. People going on and on about why Ultramarines are stupid and annoying is about ten times more annoying than the Ultramarines themselves. Yeah, they are overused, so frikking what? Get over it.

You didn't read my quote :( Me sad.
Anyway it is annoying when people complain about them. But the people who brag about being Ultramarines really grinds my gears.

Seriously? Who brags about the ultramarines? all the smurf haters made it uncool to like them years ago, this is dead horse beating of the highest caliber.

Its probably been stated already in the thread, but the reason the ultramarines are so vanilla is because they have to so that the other chapters can be "unique". If the ultramarines had a gimmick, lets say they could all breathe fire or fart butterflies or some such, then they would just be one more gimmicky chapter amongst many. Your emo space vampires (Blood Angels) and space furries (Space wolves) wouldn't look so shiny if they weren't standing next to those dull straight laced ultramarines now would they.

that said I personally like the ultras, why?

1. I think their fluff is pretty good, and, with the exception of calgar, not as overblown or fantastical as some of the other legions (im lookin at you SW).

2. The roman theme.

3. They govern the only sensibly run, vaguely habitable section on imperial space known to exist (ultramar)

4. They are resolute, and stoic to a fault but not "omfg completely incorruptible"

5. They seem to be one of the few legions that maintain something resembling real military discipline and aren't comprised entirely of brooding loners who ignore the chain of command whenever it suits them.

Seriously guys the space wolves are the new ultras (jervis even plays them) go hate on them now,ok?

EDIT:

Crantor wrote:
The dark Angels spent most of the Heresy fighting each other. Hmn...
The Raven Guard, Salamanders and Ironhands were crippled in a few hours. Hmn...
The Space Wolves were tricked into attacking the Thousand Sons then distracted during the siege of terra. Hmn...
Only the White Scars, Fists and Blood Angels did any of the fighting on Earth. (And the Blood Angels went into a depression after that one)
The Ultras fought the Word Bearers on Calth and won.

Also this^

Infantryman wrote:Yeah, it's been around for as long as they've been talking about the Marine organs. I -think- it's less that they squirt acid than their saliva being strongly acidic. Might take them a while to damage anything worse than a bolt pistol could do.

M.

I think the acid-saliva is only good for breaking out of prisons, it takes a few hours to work.

Maledictus wrote:Seriously guys the space wolves are the new ultras (jervis even plays them) go hate on them now,ok?

Hey, stop that! I even defended the Ultras, goddamnit, stop shifting the bandwagon of hate onto another chapter I like!

I, too, love the SW. None of the major Chapters (or factions) deserve the kind of visceral, unfounded hatred that nerd culture fosters.

Well, I guess sometimes the major chapters can have things about them that are annoying or badly done, I just don't see the need to out-and-out condemn their fluff for it. I like most of the chapters, myself, even the often-neglected Lamenters.

vodo40k wrote:

Infantryman wrote:Yeah, it's been around for as long as they've been talking about the Marine organs. I -think- it's less that they squirt acid than their saliva being strongly acidic. Might take them a while to damage anything worse than a bolt pistol could do.

M.

I think the acid-saliva is only good for breaking out of prisons, it takes a few hours to work.

Also saves the Iron Snake in duel with Dark Eldar Archon,without he was going to lose(he discarded his helmet before because it was too damaged).

I've played to many games agianst Ultramarine Players all they do is brag about how god-like their chapter is. Ugh.
Hence why I am stripping all the ultramarine symbols from at least 50 marines.
I believe of all the chapters out there. The Lementors, Scythes of the Emperor, Soul Drinkers, The Wanderers, and the Space Wolves have some of the most detailed lore ever. I love these chapters because they fight alot and they try and save humanity.
I like the ultramarines lore I really do! Its just they are the poster boys and I would not want to be assembled into a herd called beginners when I myself have played the hobby since 2000.
That is just my hobby store, as ultramarines are seen as gods at my store and guardsmen.

Asherian Command wrote:I've played to many games agianst Ultramarine Players all they do is brag about how god-like their chapter is. Ugh.
Hence why I am stripping all the ultramarine symbols from at least 50 marines.
I believe of all the chapters out there. The Lementors, Scythes of the Emperor, Soul Drinkers, The Wanderers, and the Space Wolves have some of the most detailed lore ever. I love these chapters because they fight alot and they try and save humanity.
I like the ultramarines lore I really do! Its just they are the poster boys and I would not want to be assembled into a herd called beginners when I myself have played the hobby since 2000.
That is just my hobby store, as ultramarines are seen as gods at my store and guardsmen.

Don't worry, there is a way around it.
What you do, is you pick an Ultramarine company that isn't the Second Company, and paint your minis with the respective shoulder rims of that company, e.g Green for Fourth Company.
Sorted!

The dark Angels spent most of the Heresy fighting each other. Hmn...
The Raven Guard, Salamanders and Ironhands were crippled in a few hours. Hmn...
The Space Wolves were tricked into attacking the Thousand Sons then distracted during the siege of terra. Hmn...
Only the White Scars, Fists and Blood Angels did any of the fighting on Earth. (And the Blood Angels went into a depression after that one)
The Ultras fought the Word Bearers on Calth and won.

Sounds like some other chapters performed a heck of a lot worse than the Ultras hmn? I would even say some of the Primarchs and legions were a bit naive or failing that incompetent.

They also lost metric FrenchConnectionUK-loads fighting nids... a whole company if the current 'dex is accurate

Salamanders live on a volcanic hell and yet still have time to help people on other planets.

Gorskar.da.Lost wrote:

Asherian Command wrote:I've played to many games agianst Ultramarine Players all they do is brag about how god-like their chapter is. Ugh.
Hence why I am stripping all the ultramarine symbols from at least 50 marines.
I believe of all the chapters out there. The Lementors, Scythes of the Emperor, Soul Drinkers, The Wanderers, and the Space Wolves have some of the most detailed lore ever. I love these chapters because they fight alot and they try and save humanity.
I like the ultramarines lore I really do! Its just they are the poster boys and I would not want to be assembled into a herd called beginners when I myself have played the hobby since 2000.
That is just my hobby store, as ultramarines are seen as gods at my store and guardsmen.

Don't worry, there is a way around it.
What you do, is you pick an Ultramarine company that isn't the Second Company, and paint your minis with the respective shoulder rims of that company, e.g Green for Fourth Company.
Sorted!

Yeah. but I hate ultramarines. I dislike blue...... Hence Why I am so racist towards the blueman group

I was kidding when i said people should start hating the SW, I still find them fairly ridiculous though.

The Ultras came through the heresy in pristine condition because...dun dun dun...they were on the opposite side of the galaxy to where significant fighting was actually taking place...or so i remember it

Phototoxin wrote:

The dark Angels spent most of the Heresy fighting each other. Hmn...
The Raven Guard, Salamanders and Ironhands were crippled in a few hours. Hmn...
The Space Wolves were tricked into attacking the Thousand Sons then distracted during the siege of terra. Hmn...
Only the White Scars, Fists and Blood Angels did any of the fighting on Earth. (And the Blood Angels went into a depression after that one)
The Ultras fought the Word Bearers on Calth and won.

Sounds like some other chapters performed a heck of a lot worse than the Ultras hmn? I would even say some of the Primarchs and legions were a bit naive or failing that incompetent.

They also lost metric FrenchConnectionUK-loads fighting nids... a whole company if the current 'dex is accurate

Salamanders live on a volcanic hell and yet still have time to help people on other planets.

Not only an entire company. Their entire first company. Including a lot of suits of TDA.

Retribution wrote:The Ultras came through the heresy in pristine condition because...dun dun dun...they were on the opposite side of the galaxy to where significant fighting was actually taking place...or so i remember it

Yep, that's right--they were doing the lion's share (quite literally, most likely, the Lion's share) of the work in the Great Crusade. You know, obeying the Emperor of Mankind, beloved by all. And let's not forget that Horus sent the Word Bearers, i.e., the only Legion with comparable numbers to the UM, to hold them up at Calth while the Warmaster headed to Terra. The UM mopped up Lorgar's boys and then made all speed to Terra. It's a very similar story to the Space Wolves' but somehow nobody manages to remember the story right . . .

Manchu wrote:

Retribution wrote:The Ultras came through the heresy in pristine condition because...dun dun dun...they were on the opposite side of the galaxy to where significant fighting was actually taking place...or so i remember it

Yep, that's right--they were doing the lion's share (quite literally, most likely, the Lion's share) of the work in the Great Crusade. You know, obeying the Emperor of Mankind, beloved by all. And let's not forget that Horus sent the Word Bearers, i.e., the only Legion with comparable numbers to the UM, to hold them up at Calth while the Warmaster headed to Terra. The UM mopped up Lorgar's boys and then made all speed to Terra. It's a very similar story to the Space Wolves' but somehow nobody manages to remember the story right . . .

Furthermore, they wouldn't have been able to reach Terra in time even if they wanted to, given how inconsistent the Materium/Warp time difference is.

Just to be clear--they certainly did wish to be at Terra.

Retribution wrote:The Ultras came through the heresy in pristine condition because...dun dun dun...they were on the opposite side of the galaxy to where significant fighting was actually taking place...or so i remember it

Except for, you know, the defence of Ultramar from the Word Bearers, who intended to crush it like a bug.
Just saying, is all.

The Dark Angels were fighting an Alien Race if I remember correctly.
The Ultramarines were busy defending Ultramar against the Word Bearers. And they were also busy.
But I still hate them. And my chapter actually had one of its captains get into a open brawl with cato scarius after what he said about nejis being a useless world.

Asherian Command wrote:The Dark Angels were fighting an Alien Race if I remember correctly.
The Ultramarines were busy defending Ultramar against the Word Bearers. And they were also busy.
But I still hate them. And my chapter actually had one of its captains get into a open brawl with cato scarius after what he said about nejis being a useless world.

Then what happened?

Monster Rain wrote:

Asherian Command wrote:The Dark Angels were fighting an Alien Race if I remember correctly.
The Ultramarines were busy defending Ultramar against the Word Bearers. And they were also busy.
But I still hate them. And my chapter actually had one of its captains get into a open brawl with cato scarius after what he said about nejis being a useless world.

Then what happened?

Cato kicked arse of course and the upstart captain was forced to leave the room on his hands and knees with an Ultramarine crotchguard tied around his head.

I find it funny how everyone complains that Guilliman wrote the Codex Astartes to divide power of the most powerful force of mankind in order to prevent a second Heresy, make the space marines a more flexible force and he had the most to loose from it, Ultras divided 23 times or so vs the 5 or less others managed. As for the Heresy: So they were sent across the galaxy by Horus, save their homeworld and arrive late while, Ironhands, Salamanders and Raven Guard got decimated in the drop site massacre, Imperial Fists defended terra and went on a pennance that continued to drain their numbers way down, Leman Russ accidentally helped turn Magnus traitor, White Scars helped defend Terra and hunt down enemies of the Imperium from time to time, Blood Angels whose primarch decided to see how much of a spanking Horus could put on him, and finally the Dark Angels who stole Horus' siege weapons then gave them right back for personal gain. And to top it off, the Ultras had clean up duty after the Heresy, while everyone else rebuilt. Ultra Marines are cops, everyone calls them pigs, but you don't want them gone.

Maledictus wrote:I was kidding when i said people should start hating the SW, I still find them fairly ridiculous though.

Don't do it; keep the faith brother, keep the SW hate alive!

cadbren wrote:

Monster Rain wrote:

Asherian Command wrote:The Dark Angels were fighting an Alien Race if I remember correctly.
The Ultramarines were busy defending Ultramar against the Word Bearers. And they were also busy.
But I still hate them. And my chapter actually had one of its captains get into a open brawl with cato scarius after what he said about nejis being a useless world.

Then what happened?

Cato kicked arse of course and the upstart captain was forced to leave the room on his hands and knees with an Ultramarine crotchguard tied around his head.

Nah Tyrion and Cato fought each other Cato won by pulling out his sword and Tyrion didn't have his halbried and his jump pack at the time. And the two walked away from each other. Not wishing to kill each other but then the 2nd company champion challenged the 10th companies champion who was Hetalor at the time. And Hetalor won.
Heres some background on Nejis. Nejis was once a world of the Storm Crusaders. At one time it was a prime recuriting world. But the 29th and much of the home fleet which was supposed to guard it was called by Marneus calgar to help aid in a war that was in the favor of the Ultramarines but a final push was needed and the closet chapter which had the firepower to deal with it was the Storm Crusaders 29th and its fleet. The planet of nejis directly after the 29th left was attacked by a planet killer and swallowed awhole by the Chaos Renegades. The 10th Company immedately arrived after a crusade and defeated the ship but at the cost of half the 10th, the entire 23rd, 1/4 of the 5th, and 2 strike cruisers and the entire population of nejis. Hence why the Storm Crusaders blame The Ultramarines for the death of so many.