Ok, so the rules, as far as I remember, say that you can't use outflank in a vehicle. I may have misread it, but I keep hearing people make references to Valkyries in Mechvet lists and chosen in Rhino's outflanking.

Did I miss something and I've been footslogging my chosen using outflank for the past couple weeks like a tard? Can I outflank in Rhino's?

Thanks in advance...and I'm sorry, I know this post has prolly come up like 50000000 times but i'm just curious.

pg 76 of the BBB answers all.

alarmingrick wrote:pg 76 of the BBB answers all.

Page 76 doesn't deal with Outflank, only Scouts.

Page 94 deals with Outflanking and Dedicated transports.

Regarding the Vendettas, they can outflank because the Vehicle itself has scout, the unit inside doesn't need it (the same way as a Drop Pod has Deep Strike but the Marines inside don't).

Sorry, i was refering to the "...rule also confers a special outflank move to units of scouts thare kept in reserve..." part.
right as always Gman.

@ Gwar - not having a rulebook nearby I was wondering if you can actually do that with vendettas. My understanding was that drop pods were dedicated transports purchased for a particular unit. Vendettas are not dedicated transports. Can they still confer the outflank benefit on any embarked unit?

Flinty wrote:@ Gwar - not having a rulebook nearby I was wondering if you can actually do that with vendettas. My understanding was that drop pods were dedicated transports purchased for a particular unit. Vendettas are not dedicated transports. Can they still confer the outflank benefit on any embarked unit?

Being a Dedicated Transport doesn't make the slightest bit of difference.

To quote page 67 (with my own emphasis), "The only limitation of a dedicated transport is that when it is deployed it can only carry the unit it was selected with (plus any independent characters)."

So, either a Drop Pod Deep Strike with a unit of Marines who can't and a Vendetta can outflank with a unit of Veterans who can't, or Drop Pods don't work.

Which one do you think is the way the rules work?

There is NO conferring going on, is the end result.

If you are saying a vehicle cares about the occupents, then vehicles can only move 6" (speed of infantry) and cannot fire heavy weapons while moving (as their passengers generally cant)

Or, you realise that the vehicle and the unit are seperate units, and that the vehicles ability to do something is entirely independent, in this instance, of the embarked unit.

There are two ways for a unit in a vehicle to outflank.

1. A unit with Scouts is embarked on a dedicated transport. Note that it must be dedicated, not any old transport. P94
2. A vehicle has Scouts. Whether or not it has another unit transported the vehicle itself has it and can use that USR.

Scott-S6 wrote:There are at least three ways for a unit in a vehicle to outflank.

1. A unit with Scouts is embarked on a dedicated transport. Note that it must be dedicated, not any old transport. P94
2. A vehicle has Scouts. Whether or not it has another unit transported the vehicle itself has it and can use that USR.

3. A special rule, not a USR, such as Captain Al'Rahem's that forces/allows you to outflank, vehicles included.

Fixed it for you.

Evil Lamp 6 wrote:

Scott-S6 wrote:There are at least three ways for a unit in a vehicle to outflank.

1. A unit with Scouts is embarked on a dedicated transport. Note that it must be dedicated, not any old transport. P94
2. A vehicle has Scouts. Whether or not it has another unit transported the vehicle itself has it and can use that USR.

3. A special rule, not a USR, such as Captain Al'Rahem's that forces/allows you to outflank, vehicles included.

Fixed it for you.

4. The vehicle has infiltrate

Irdiumstern wrote:

Evil Lamp 6 wrote:

Scott-S6 wrote:There are at least three ways for a unit in a vehicle to outflank.

1. A unit with Scouts is embarked on a dedicated transport. Note that it must be dedicated, not any old transport. P94
2. A vehicle has Scouts. Whether or not it has another unit transported the vehicle itself has it and can use that USR.

3. A special rule, not a USR, such as Captain Al'Rahem's that forces/allows you to outflank, vehicles included.

Fixed it for you.

4. The vehicle has infiltrate

Hence the change to "at least". I knew someone would jump on me for that if I just said 3.

To keep the thread going on a more educatuional route, what are all the ways a vehicle can outflank?

I still don't think its that clear cut. Reading the Reserves section on P94 it provides a process for nominating reserves and outflanking. Fair enough you can designate a unit to be transported by the Vendetta and they will be rolled for together. However in the last paragraph of the Preparing Reserves section and the Outflank section at the bottom of the next column it states

"During deployment, players may daclare that units with the Scout or Infiltrate special rules are attempting to outflank the enemy."

I don't see anything there that indicates that a Scouting transport can outflank with a non-scout unit. It does say that a transport and the unit it is carrying will be rolled for and arrive together, however you still have 2 units; one of which has Scout and the other one doesn't. This to me indicates that both units would need to have the appropriate skill to allow both to outflank.

Additionally the rule is very specific about dedicated transports being allowed to scout if the attached infantry unit has the rule.

Now I don't have a Space Marine codex to check the wording about how drop pods work, but seeing as drop pods have all sorts of other special rules they might cover this explicitly for Deep Strike.

It doesnt, hence it was brought up as an example.

As was said: if you are stating thet the embarked unit places restrictions on the transport, then why not be consistent - and that therefore the transport can only move 6", cannot fire heavy weapons on the move, and so on.

Now, the embarked unit DOES NOT place restrictions on the vehicle. So the vehicle is allowed to outflank, the vehicle can carry a unit, therefore you can outflank with the unit embarked. There is no prohibition so you have permission.

nosferatu1001 wrote:It doesnt, hence it was brought up as an example.

As was said: if you are stating thet the embarked unit places restrictions on the transport, then why not be consistent - and that therefore the transport can only move 6", cannot fire heavy weapons on the move, and so on.

Now, the embarked unit DOES NOT place restrictions on the vehicle. So the vehicle is allowed to outflank, the vehicle can carry a unit, therefore you can outflank with the unit embarked. There is no prohibition so you have permission.

Wait what? Are you not one of those people who say this game has a "Permissive rule set"? Seriously, you are saying because it doesn't say I can't, that means I can. Alright I am buying hammers for everyone!@!

Now what you might want to do is give a page refference (please I really am lost and have looked for it for a good 10-15 min in a hurry got to go to work and all) so that we can all see what you are saying. I can however point to the USR and say that on PG 76 under scouts it says that "a unit with this ability is deployed in a dedicated transport vehicle, it confers the scout ability to the transport too." But I do not see the converse. Or for some people it actually saying that vehicles give the scout USR to the units/models/squad inside the transport. It also references this on PG 94 under the outflank paragraph, last sentence.

Permission is granted (by the vehicle) and nothing removes it. That is not a "it does not say I can't" it is a "it says I can".

Again I feel your examples are somewhat fallacious (assuming I spelled that correctly ). Under the Embarkation section of the Transport Vehicle section on p66 explicitly states that if the vehicle has not moved before its passengers get aboard it may move as normal. The very strong implication being that vehicle movement is not affected by an infantry unit inside a transport. Similarly as a vehicle it will fire using the vehicle rules and not be affected by the infantry inside.

However for reserves you have 2 units, only one of which has the ability to outflank. You have to declare which units are making outflanking moves. In my view the fact that 2 units are rolled for together doesn't alter the fact that only units that have scouts or infiltrate can be declared as outflanking.

Flinty wrote:only units that have scouts or infiltrate can be declared as outflanking.

The transport is outflanking.

And therefore the transported unit is also outflanking, if able.

Right. Just like a unit of Tactical Marines is Deep Striking in their Drop Pod, despite themselves not having the Deep Strike rule.

Again, pardon my lack of Marine rules, but are Drop pods not dedicated transports? There is at least an implication that dedicated transports are handled differently.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
But actually, regardless, under my reading of RAW, Tactical marines can't deep strike in drop pods... Awesome

Actually no, there isnt - the ONLY difference in dedicated transports is who can deploy in them, as stated in the rules as the ONLY difference.

The vehicle can outflank. The vehicle can transport a unit. Nothing states that the unit must also be able to outflank for the vehicle to carry on.

General permission granted. Check. No specific restrictions aplpied. Check.

Done. Like this topic has been, on at least two other threads.

Flinty wrote:Again, pardon my lack of Marine rules, but are Drop pods not dedicated transports? There is at least an implication that dedicated transports are handled differently.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
But actually, regardless, under my reading of RAW, Tactical marines can't deep strike in drop pods... Awesome

Actually, under drop pod assault in the BA codex pg 32 the last sentence it states, "A unit that Deep Stikes Via Drop Pod cannot assault in the turn it arrives". So at this point the unit that does not normally have the Deep Strike rule has been granted it by the vehicle through a Special Rule. Unlike with scout, unless otherwise stated in a codex I do not have, the rule is not confered over. So Nos, and anyone else who is saying yes please quote me a page reference. Thank you!

Additionly, they are treated differently, because there is a section in the BRB dealing with exactly what they are. Dedicated transport section on the bottom of page 67.

So a transport with embarked models can only move as far as the embarked models would be allowed?
(Unless of course, the transport cannot even move that far.)

Actually KP it hasnt been given it. It tells you what happens if a unit DOES arrive via deepstrike (it cannot assault) but nowhere in that sentence does it actually grant the DS rule to the models. At all. If you believe it does, page please.

I have shown general permission, please show specific restriction on the embarked unit. Page please.

nosferatu1001 wrote:Actually no, there isnt - the ONLY difference in dedicated transports is who can deploy in them, as stated in the rules as the ONLY difference.

The vehicle can outflank. The vehicle can transport a unit. Nothing states that the unit must also be able to outflank for the vehicle to carry on.

Except for the bit that says you need to declare that a unit will be outflanking. Nowhere does it say that a unit transported in an outflanking vehicle can come along for the ride. Comparison to Drop Pods is relevant but not necessarily convincing. Drop pods are specifically designed to provide the deep strike ability to units that cannot normally do it. Vendettas can transport units with the appropriate skills to allow them to outflank, however they can also transport non-outflanky units. In the case of outflanking I don't think the evidence stacks up.

@ Kirsanth - as noted above the embarkation rules indicate that vehicles transporting infantry move as normal for vehicles. I am not questioning the transport rules, merely the method that one should designate reserves and declaring outflanking

The unit is not outflanking, so why would it need outflank?

If I dredge up the last few times that this topic has degenerated into a needlessly long argument, can we just skip to the part where this thread gets locked, too?

The first locked thread in the search results for 'transport' and 'outflank':
http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/279857.page

Flinty - see Solkans link. As I stated, this has been discussed a number of times before.

You declare the unit is embarked. You now only need to talk about the vehicle, and the vehicle can outflank. Done, sorted, permission granted etc.

Oh well... Teh Intarwab appears to have spoken. Just because it has been discussed before doesn't mean that the earlier thread conclusion was the correct one

I still feel that the reserves selection and outflanking declaration demands that both units require Scouts to benefit, but I guess mob rules

Lock it up.

Not mob rules at all, just that you have yet to provide a specifc rule overriding the permission of the vehicle to outflank.

You are not outflanking the embarked unit: you know this as they dont make a roll for which side they come in from, the vehicle does.

This one I agree with Flinty.

Brilliant. Any rules to back that up?

I agree with Nosferatu. Vendettas have scout, and so can make their 12" move before turn 1, even if something is embarked, right? If the unit inside not having scout prevented outflanking, wouldn't it prevent this too?

@Nos - Yes. P94 of the rulebook where it states clearly that all units must be declared as using Scout or Infiltrate to outflank. If the unit doesn't have the rule it can't outflank. It also clearly states that units in a transport are rolled together with the transport, however it doesn't say that a transport with Scout can outflank with a non-scouting unit inside. The key point is that the units are rolled for together, not that the transport unit takes precedence over what rules can be applied.

@Fifty - I don't think thats the same issue. The scout move is a vehicle move and as implied in the transport vehicle rules, the embarked unit doesn't affect the movement of the unit. The vendetta can make a scout move, but the embarked troopes would not be able to disembark as part of the move as they do not have Scout themselves. Again, I am not challenging the transport rules at all I a challenging the reserves selection and declaration rules for transport units with Scout.

SO it is ok to make a scout move but not to outflank? Despite both abilities being granted by the vehicle?

The unit inside is NOT outflanking, the vehicle is. THat is all that is needed...

So Flinty, do you think that Space Marines get to deep strike in their Drop Pods, even tho the Tac Squad does not have Deep Strike but the transport does?

If you do, then why are you arguing against the same thing here regarding Valk/Vend and embarked untis?

@Nos - I think it is ok for the Scout move to be made because the models are on the board and the transport is able to make a scout move. The infantry inside cannot disembark because they themselves cannot Scout. My concern is that with reserves you need to declare all units that are outflanking. The fact that you roll for the two units together doesn't mean that you can declare the tranported unit can outflank.

@don_mondo - Its a different unit in a different army, but by RAW I would say that they can't. On the other hand drop pods can do only one thing so it is much easier to accept that units can deep strike inside drop pods. Vendettas and Valkyries can do a whole range of things and can carry a range of units with and without Scout and/or Infiltrate. I just think its a step too far to apply the Scouts outflanking benefit to anything that happens to be inside the transport. To be honest it provides a reason to field Stormtroopers rather than veteran squads.

Flinty wrote: My concern is that with reserves you need to declare all units that are outflanking.

And you are.

Only the transport is being deployed via Outflank.
The embarked unit is being deployed in the transport.

In the terms of P94 neither unit is deployed. Both units are declared as being left in reserve and will arrive together as a result of a single reserves roll. Again to quote the Reserves rules:

"If units in reserve have the 'deep strike', 'scout', or 'infiltrate' special rule, the player must declare to his opponent, during army deployment, whether they are going to use their special rules to deep strike/outflank or they are going to enter from his own table edge when they become available (see Arriving from Reserve)."

The terminology regarding transports in reserve is that "the units will be rolled for together and will arrive together." Nowhere does it state that the units become a single entity able to use the most advantageous rules available to either unit. Conversely it specifically states that infantry units with Scout and a dedicated transport can pass the special rule benefit over to the transport.

The transport is rolled with the embarked units.

The transport is declared to outflank.

The units are declared to be embarked.

The this can be done with dedicated transport without scout if the embarked units have scout.

Non-dedicated transports cannot do this unless they can scout. (Or infiltrate, but none spring to mind.)

Flinty wrote:To be honest it provides a reason to field Stormtroopers rather than veteran squads.

?? Really? I can't think of any.

@Kirsanth - Its a logical progression, and one that I considered myself, but I still don't think the rules support it.

@don_mondo - Because Stormtroopers can get infiltrate or scouts to be able to outflank with a vendetta/valkyrie and Veterans can't.

But see, veterans don't need it cause the vehicle provides. See?

Oh God-Emperor not this again.

Vets can outflank in a Vendetta the same way Marines can Deep Strike inside a Pod.

It's that simple.

It's already been pointed out that the drop pod is a strawman argument.

A Strawman is a specific kind of logical fallacy, where you pretend that your opponent is arguing something other than what he really is saying, so as to more easily prevail (it's easier to knock down a straw man than a real one) in the argument. The flaw being that you haven't actually defeated his argument, just a misrepresentation of it.

The Drop Pod is a completely legitimate example of a parallel case to the Valkyrie.

Flinty - not all the models are on the board; the embarked unit is inside the vehicle that is scouting forwards.

You may not be convinced, but you dont havea rule that contradicts the permission given in the transport rules. Until you can come up with that restriction, and p94 does not do it, you can do it.

In addition arrival from reserves is deployment.

BloodThirSTAR - erm, no, no it isnt. Listen to Mannahnin, the mod speaks the truth.

Here are my thoughts on the drop pod versus an IG skimmer and why I think the comparison is invalid. A drop pod is a dedicated transport while not so for the IG skimmer. If you take a unit with a drop pod then it's covered by the rules in their entry. This is not the case with say a squad of IG veterans in a Vendetta... It's not stated in the rules that you can outflank the guardsmen unlike the Marines in a drop pod - to say they can is an inference of the rules as nowhere do the rules specifically say you can. The drop pod is the de facto example given to support this but it's flawed. That's why I say it's a strawman. It sounds on good on the surface but closer examination of the rules says otherwise. A lot of people will buy off on the argument because it does sound good.

BloodThirSTAR wrote:A drop pod is a dedicated transport while not so for the IG skimmer.

This is completely irrelevant.

nosferatu1001 wrote:Flinty - not all the models are on the board; the embarked unit is inside the vehicle that is scouting forwards.

You may not be convinced, but you dont havea rule that contradicts the permission given in the transport rules. Until you can come up with that restriction, and p94 does not do it, you can do it.

In addition arrival from reserves is deployment.

BloodThirSTAR - erm, no, no it isnt. Listen to Mannahnin, the mod speaks the truth.

Again, Nos, please give me a page reference for your inference of the rules. Additionally, can you site a page reference for general permission for a unit with scout allowing something that does not have scout to outflank. Or anything that says under the Vendetta section saying that units inside my outflank inside the vehicle.

Furthermore, you again have said in essence since it does not say I cannot do this... I can!

Also, with the drop pod and tactical marines, if you actually look at the arriving from reserve section they actually gain deep strike from that section. Drop pods, at least in the BA codex do not have DeepStrike, and since they do not actually have the rule for deepstrike they are given permission to arrive by deepstrike inside the vehiclen by the reserves section (arriving from reserves last paragraph). Again in the reserves rule on the bottom of page 94, second paragraph it does mention that all units are arriving from reserves. So your statment about a unit that is in a Vendetta, but not actually deployed is debunked.

Wrong. I have said I CAN do this because of general permission ( can Outflank a vehicle with Scout, I CAN embark a unit in the vehicle before deployment) and you have yet to show I cannot - which is a difference.

Page references? Reserves rules and the rules for models with Scout or Infiltrate. All that is needed.

Note that the unit inside is not "arriving by outflank", therefore no rule required to allow them to do so.

Bloodthirster - being a dedicated transport has NO BEARING on the situation at all. Read page 67 about dedicated transports, note the ONLY difference between dedicated and normal transports, and perhaps admit your error.

Keep in mind guys, the unit does not move on from the board edge or move at all, it's the vehicle performing these actions.

Actually Nos you have only reiterated your opinion, and not given any proof from the book as to why you can. Saying you can because you say there is general permission is different the saying you can because (place page reference/quote from BRB or other text here) says you can.

Addtionally, your claim of all is needed is scouts/infiltrate is in fact wrong, as has been discussed in this very thread before. You do not have permission to transfer rules from the Vendetta or any vehicle that does not specifically say that it transfers to units inside of the vehicle. While there is specific statments multiple times in the book saying that the squads inside do transfer rules. So please site a page reference where what you are claiming is true, and we can move forward and accept what your are saying.

Futhermore, page 94 rolling for reserves second paragraph disagrees with you. Seeing how you roll for both the Vendetta and the squad being carried inside, they both arrive from reserves as they are both coming onto the table. Also on that very same page before that you must declare how your units are going to arrive from reserves. And in fact it does say that they arrive together. (Second sentence 4th paragraph, second sentence.) So since you have to declare that both units are arriving by outflank you cannot do this since one unit does not have the rules to allow it to!

That should end this discussion.

No, their rolled for together if the squad is embarked, the vehicle outflanks. Now, "When a reserve unit arrives, it must move onto the table from the controlling player’s own table edge (unless it’s deep striking or outflanking). Each model’s move is measured from the edge of the battlefield,"

Can you tell me how to measure to an embarked model please? Or even tell me how you're gpoing to move the non-vehilce unit (your not)

You need to actually read a little bit more because first you must declare what you are keeping in reserve, and how they are going to arrive. If you are going to put a squad inside of the Vendetta you have to declare by the wording in the book that both the Vendetta and the squad inside are actually outflanking. Since the the squad inside does not have scout or infiltrate or outflank you cannot make that declaration. Secondly, I understand that you are only moving the vehicle, that is not the problem. The problem comes from the fact that you are using a rule for a unit that does not have that rule. It also does not confer the rules of the transport to the unit it is carrying. So you cannot outflank a squad inside a vehicle unless both the squad and the vehicle (which the vehicle can gain from the squad inside, but not vice versa) have the scout, infiltrate, outflank rules.

Reguardless of the fact that you cannot measure to the units inside the transports, they are arriving together, and they are both arriving by outflank, which only one of the two units arriving together has. Additionally, you are making the case that no models at any time my be measured to inside a transport for any reason. I think that there are multiple situations where this is not true, as you measure to and from the hull for Pyschic powers. That is niether here nor there. The rules as dictated on page 94 spell out what is happening when these situations happen.

You declare that the squad is arriving embarked in the vehicle.
You declare the vehicle is outflanking.

Rules satisfied, permission granted from the Scout rule possessed by the vehicle, the Reserves rules dictating how units can be combined while in reserve.

You can look up both those page numbers for yourself, I gave you the sections.

Now find a section where it states that, explicitly, a unit embarked in a vehicle affects the vehicles rules at all. Find where the Vehicles ability to Scout, either while on the table or as Outflank, is affected by an embarked unit.

Find where the models embarked in the vehicle have moved on from the edge of the board. Dont dodge the question - you are stating the embarked models are arriving from reserve via Outflank, therefore they must have moved on from the edge of the board. Please find ruels to measure INDIVIDUAL models, not units, when embarked. You are also inc orrect in your assertion that Chris' assertion is false: you can measure to embarked UNITS, you cannot measure to MODELS. Stop dropping / conflating important terms if you want your argument to hold water.

A unit embarked in a skimmer do not have to have the skimmer rule in order for the skimmer to move, a unit embarked in a drop pod do not have to have the deepstrike rule to arrive via the deepstrike rules, so why would a unit embarked in an outflanking transport have to have the outflank rule?

The transport vehicle rules give permission for embarked units to be transported per those vehicles rules.

Which is the argument all along, and the "other side" have yet to show any evidence against.

Its like being asked to find a rule allowing you to deploy inside woods in your deployment zone - you can find general rules, whcih is sufficient.

The process for reserves is specifically stated on pg 94.

Section: Mission Special Rules - Reserves - Preparing reserves.

Steps listed - paragraph 3

Step 1:
"First he must specify to the opponent if any independent characters left in reserve are joining a unit..."

I am leaving my Vendetta and Sister of Battle squad in reserve

Step 2:
"Similarly, the player must specify if any transport vehicle in reserves is carrying any of the infantry units...if they do the unit and transport will be rolled together and arrive together"

I am embarking my Sister of Battle squad in the Vendetta

Step 3:
"If units in reserve have the 'deep strike,' 'scout' or 'infiltrate' special rule, the player must declare to his opponent...whether they are going to use their special rules to deep strike/outflank..."

I am outflanking my Vendetta. You do not declare for the Sisters because they are in the transport and arrive with it...done?

The only time it matters if the transport is dedicated or not is for 'Scouts' on page 76 which specifically states the rule is conferred to a dedicated transport (enabling the transport to outflank or make a scout move if desired).

nosferatu1001 wrote:You declare that the squad is arriving embarked in the vehicle.
You declare the vehicle is outflanking.

Rules satisfied, permission granted from the Scout rule possessed by the vehicle, the Reserves rules dictating how units can be combined while in reserve.

You can look up both those page numbers for yourself, I gave you the sections.

Now find a section where it states that, explicitly, a unit embarked in a vehicle affects the vehicles rules at all. Find where the Vehicles ability to Scout, either while on the table or as Outflank, is affected by an embarked unit.

Find where the models embarked in the vehicle have moved on from the edge of the board. Dont dodge the question - you are stating the embarked models are arriving from reserve via Outflank, therefore they must have moved on from the edge of the board. Please find ruels to measure INDIVIDUAL models, not units, when embarked. You are also inc orrect in your assertion that Chris' assertion is false: you can measure to embarked UNITS, you cannot measure to MODELS. Stop dropping / conflating important terms if you want your argument to hold water.

First, lets get this straight. You have not sited any rules page from the BRB. So you saying you have given us any pages is wrong. Secondly, since the reserve rules say that both the units arrive together, they put the restriction that both the units (which still arrive together) need to have the rule they are attempting to use. Additionally, you have yet to show that the rules of the vehicle can and will effect models they are carrying. Or in other words. That USR's or any special rules that do not say that they effect units inside are allowed to effect units they are carrying. So stop dodging that. I am not saying that you have to measure to the models inside. I am saying they are restricted from using a specail rule they do not have in the first place. You must declare that your units, in this case the Vendetta and the (insert squad without infiltrate, scout, or outflank rules here) are going to outflank. Do you see the problem. You are forcing a unit that does not have a special rule to use that specail rule. They arrive together, they are restricted from using specail rules they do not have. Please for the love of god find me a page that references that vehicle specail rules confer over to units inside, or find something that contradicts the reserves rules that says they arrive together.

Your secondly is supposition, not fact.

Your additional is you adding additional restrictions when you cannot show they are needed.

You DO need to measure to the models inside, because under YOUR interpretation the embarked models are arrving from reserve using Outflank. Arriving from reserve requires you to be able to measure to the models. so stop ducking: please show the rules that let you measure to embarked models.

You have yet to provide rules, when shown the holes in your arguments you duck and ignore the question.

nosferatu1001 wrote:Your secondly is supposition, not fact.

Your additional is you adding additional restrictions when you cannot show they are needed.

You DO need to measure to the models inside, because under YOUR interpretation the embarked models are arrving from reserve using Outflank. Arriving from reserve requires you to be able to measure to the models. so stop ducking: please show the rules that let you measure to embarked models.

You have yet to provide rules, when shown the holes in your arguments you duck and ignore the question.

You need to provide rules to say this is allowed. I have found rules that restrict this. The reserve rules read that the units arrive together. NO interpretation it is verbatum. Please read that section that I have referenced multiple times.

If my secondly is not fact please find something that is factual that proves your point and give me a page reference WHICH YOU HAVE STILL YET TO DO. Otherwise your claim that it works is false. We have a permissive ruleset, you are claiming that since the rules do not specificly say you cannot, that you can do that. Which by the way is hilarious! I have given you rules from the book, not my own ideas, not my own thoughts. The additional is referenced in the reserves rule as you have to declare how each unit is arriving from reserve. When you do this both units need to be able to declare that they can. Since, lets say Veterans (because I think that is what the original poster said) does not have scouts, infiltrate, or outflank in thier rules set you cannot declare that they are outflanking. I have also given you sufficent information where these rules, specifically, work when the unit has the rules that allows you to outflank and how they confer them over to the vehcile, but there is no evidence to the converse.

I am not ducking the question, as it is not a question that needs to be anwsered. Please for the sake of civility show where you measure to any unit inside a vehicle. (Page Reference please no statments, I want to actually read it from the book/rules that are printed by GW) The reserves rules, which I have quoted, have shown you that your claim is wrong. You need to find rules, to support your anwser, if you can find anything to do this I will be glad to try and find an anwser for your claim again, but you have yet to give any real evidence to support your claim.

KP under your rules interpretation Drop Pods never work because you cannot declare the SM inside are Deep Striking...

You are correct that the unit needs to declare how it will arrive IF it has the deep strike, infiltrate or out flank special rules. The squad inside has none of these, ergo, it does not declare how it is arriving. It does not NEED to declare how it is arriving, it is merely in reserves INSIDE a transport.

The transport declares it is using Outflank, hence it arrives via outflanking and the other unit, rolled with it an embarked in it arrives via outflank. You do not even need to declare the unit inside is outflanking because it is embarked in the transport. The embarked unit is not outflanking, the transport is, the embarked unit is just along for the ride.

Edit: You are wrong in your quoting of the reserve rules, see my previous post.

calypso2ts wrote:KP under your rules interpretation Drop Pods never work because you cannot declare the SM inside are Deep Striking...

This...and really any vehicle which move in ways that infantry cannot (e.g. skimmers, fast vehicles) yet may still transport infantry.

So I have already addressed the problem with drop pods. The drop pods do not actually have the deepstrike rule, but in the reserves rules, it does say that immoblised units that are in reserve arrive via deep strike. The drop pod does not have deep strike, it gains deepstrike from the BRB rules regarding reserves. In essence this is a niether here nor there example. As the drop pod gains the rules from the reserves section of the BRB.

You are still having to declare that the unit which is being transported by the vendetta/valk, are arriving by outflank. Because both the Valk/Vendetta and the squad they are carrying are outflanking. There is no way around it. The valk/Vendetta are carrying a squad of whatever, the squad of whatever arrives the same time and way that the transport that is carrying them does. That is what you guys are saying yes? Well the rules for this say that you have to, again HAVE TO declare how each unit is arriving from reserves. You cannot say that my squad is arriving by valk/vendetta because that is not a choice given in the reserves rules (IE Deepstrike, outflank, infiltrate). You cannot claim that the SOB are arriving from reserves by outflank because the vendetta allows it because they do not, firstly have the rule, and secondly do not have any rules that back that up the squad coming along for the ride (or gaining the rules from the transport).

KP - page 66, "Embarking", final sentence. You can measure to units, not models. Surprised you've never come across this before, given its kinda key in 5th ed.

I have shown:

1) I am able to declare the unit to be embarked on the vehicle
2) That the vehicle is using Outflank

And I have permisison to do both.

What I am saying is that you are adding arbitrary requirements (specific requirements you have made up) akin to requiring specific rules to deploy in woods. You have general rules allowing this, but you would be, in an analogy, wanting something specific about deploying in woods when it isnt necessary.

Kapitalist-Pig wrote:So I have already addressed the problem with drop pods. The drop pods do not actually have the deepstrike rule, but in the reserves rules, it does say that immoblised units that are in reserve arrive via deep strike. The drop pod does not have deep strike, it gains deepstrike from the BRB rules regarding reserves. In essence this is a niether here nor there example. As the drop pod gains the rules from the reserves section of the BRB.

That is incorrect - SM: Codex 69 - Drop Pod Assault. 'All drop pods enter play via Deep Strike.' Not because of the BRB (although that does grant permission to immobile units that annot move in from a board edge). Further it says - a 'Unit that deep strikes via a drop pod' However, they cannot deep strike because they do not have that rule, which the drop pod does. So I can declare a deep strike with my drop pod, but I cannot declare a Dread or Tactical is deep striking because it is ineligible to be able to be declared to deep strike....unless it is allowed to do so via the drop pod. Wait, can a unit deep strike via a drop pod...'a unit that deep strike via a drop pod.'


This argument is both here and there. If I do not need to declare a unit is deep striking if it is entering play via deep strike in a vehicle (drop pod or heck BA Land Raider), then I do not need to declare a unit entering play via outflank in vehicle is itself declared as outflanking. How can you even separate these two examples logically?

Kapitalist-Pig wrote:
You are still having to declare that the unit which is being transported by the vendetta/valk, are arriving by outflank. Because both the Valk/Vendetta and the squad they are carrying are outflanking. There is no way around it.

No you do not, this is the entire point, you do not need to declare anything about the unit other than it is in reserves and it is in the transport. It then arrives with the vehicle.

The squad is not outflanking itself, it is outflanking via a Valk/Vendetta. In the same way a unit is DS via drop pod. You do not declare either for an embarked squad.

Kapitalist-Pig wrote:
The valk/Vendetta are carrying a squad of whatever, the squad of whatever arrives the same time and way that the transport that is carrying them does. That is what you guys are
saying yes? Well the rules for this say that you have to, again HAVE TO declare how each unit is arriving from reserves.

No this is incorrect, reread the rules. You need to declare units that are deep striking, outflanking and infiltrating. You do not have to declare a unit DS'ing/Outflanking via an (insert vehicle)

Kapitalist-Pig wrote:
You cannot say that my squad is arriving by valk/vendetta because that is not a choice given in the reserves rules (IE Deepstrike, outflank, infiltrate).

I am not declaring it as arriving that way, we agree on that. It is just in reserves and will arrive with the other unit because it is embarked. If you magically kill the transport off the table then it will walk onto my board edge. You ONLY need to declare those three states, anything else is not declared it just is what it is.

Kapitalist-Pig wrote:
You cannot claim that the SOB are arriving from reserves by outflank because the vendetta allows it because they do not, firstly have the rule, and secondly do not have any rules that back that up the squad coming along for the ride (or gaining the rules from the transport).

I am not declaring that, I am just putting them in reserve in a vehicle. If you want to break Drop Pods and any other vehicle that deep strikes be my guest, but it makes a mockery of the actual rules. I suppose you force tactical squads (assuming you even allow them to Deep Strike) disembarking from a drop pod to take dangerous terrain tests as well since they deep struck...

Can you tell me how to measure to an embarked model please? So Nos finally came through and provided a page reference for us! Great job. Only problem is now you answered calypso2ts's question! Also, I would like to point out calypso2ts that Drop Pods do not in fact have deepstrike. They have drop pod assault which gives them deepstrike via the 40k mission specail rules, aka reserves rules. I am not breaking any vehicle's in the game, nor am I trying to break rules by insisting that units inside a vehicle can arrive any way the vehcile can without permission. What is suprising as I am sure you will find out shortly is that DPA actually stipulates that units arriving via drop pods cannot assault. Here is where the unit is specifically, mentioned and given general permission to use the drop pods to enter play.

Wait, the unit is given permission to deep strike in a dorp pod in the part about drop pod assault where it says they cannot assault? Wow, okay that is a ridiculous statement...that is not permission to deep strike, it just says 'if you happen to deep strike via a pod, you cannot assault.'

You still have not shown how a tactical, dread or thunderfire cannon have permission to be declared as deep strikers - they do not, at no point is it said XYZ may deep strike. Your interpretation of the rules is dead wrong.

KP - we were asking YOU for how to measure to an embarked model. You stated at least twice that this could be done, however I have shown how you are only given permission to measure to embarked units. Not models.

So, for the last time of asking: provide a page reference to where you can measure to embarked models

Failure to do so means you concede your argument as invalid, as your argument requires you to be able to measure to embarked models.

Last chance.

FInally - the rules for DPA do NOT give the embarked models Deepstrike, pr permission to enter play via deepstrike - as again has been mentioned to you. All it gives you is the rule that states that a "unit that arrives via DPA may not assault" - that tells you what happens IF they arrive, you have yet to show by your argument the permission to arrive in the first place.

Your interpretation of DPA is flawed, as is your interpretation of Outflank. You also didnt appear to know that you can measure to embarked units, which is impressive as I assume you have never therefore letg an embarked scoring unit capture an objective? It's only a core mechanic....

nosferatu1001 wrote:KP - we were asking YOU for how to measure to an embarked model. You stated at least twice that this could be done, however I have shown how you are only given permission to measure to embarked units. Not models.

So, for the last time of asking: provide a page reference to where you can measure to embarked models

Failure to do so means you concede your argument as invalid, as your argument requires you to be able to measure to embarked models.

Last chance.

FInally - the rules for DPA do NOT give the embarked models Deepstrike, pr permission to enter play via deepstrike - as again has been mentioned to you. All it gives you is the rule that states that a "unit that arrives via DPA may not assault" - that tells you what happens IF they arrive, you have yet to show by your argument the permission to arrive in the first place.

Your interpretation of DPA is flawed, as is your interpretation of Outflank. You also didnt appear to know that you can measure to embarked units, which is impressive as I assume you have never therefore letg an embarked scoring unit capture an objective? It's only a core mechanic....

I know this is going to be frustating, but you do not get to decide when arugments are over. Nor do you get to tell me that I have my last chance. Futhermore, to ask for a specific reference so that you can look at only "model". Seeing as on page 3 it specifically says that models fight together in groups called units. Last paragraph unit section. That combined with page 66, embarking section last sentence, tells you how to measure, to a model/models aka unit or squad.

DPA allows units to arrive via deepstrike, why is this you ask, "At the begining of your first turn you must choose half your drop pods (rounding up) to make a 'Drop Pod Assault'. Units making a Drop Pod Assault arrive on the first players turn." So see units, you declare that your units (drop pod, and whatever inside) are making a drop pod assault. Thus giving permission to do such. It also goes on to say that the remaining drop pods, which is still effected by DPA, are rolled for as normal, thus allowing the rest to arrive when rolled as normal.
also the last sentece says that a unit that deepstrikes via drop pod... see that right there, it is saying that it is an option to deepstrike. Otherwise it is fluff, and last time I checked special rules, were actually, you know, rules! Wow check that out!

@KP: I asked previously but I'm sure it got lost in the shuffle. What gives a unit of infantry permission to move as a skimmer, or as a fast vehicle?

your asking if a vehicle can move as a vehicle, which starts at page 56, and goes through to page 73. This covers all the vehicles that you might ask about. Now for transports page 66 is where you get the rules allowing certain vehicle to carry models, movement is on page 57. Hope this helps.

Kapitalist-Pig wrote:your asking if a vehicle can move as a vehicle, which starts at page 56, and goes through to page 73. This covers all the vehicles that you might ask about. Now for transports page 66 is where you get the rules allowing certain vehicle to carry models, movement is on page 57. Hope this helps.

So vehicles may move and infantry may embark in vehicles? And infantry may be transported in those vehicles using rules which the infantry themselves do not have? Unless I'm reading those rules wrong.

So rules which pertain only to measure to units somehow allows you to measure to specific models?

Fail.

Your argument is conceded as you are now simply making up rules.

Now to disect your other fail:

1) It tells you to select the drop pods. It does not say "and any contained unit", just the drop pods.

2) "Units" in this context indicates the drop pod(s) selected to make the DPA. Odd, a whole section about DROP PODS talking about DROP PODS. Who would have thought!

3) The last line tells you what happens IF a unit has arrived using DPA and what it can then do. It does NOT contain permission to actually make the assault. I assume you can tell the difference? Or maybe not.

Fail all round KP

Let's keep it polite. It doesn't take that much more effort.

First to help zeshin, you need to read the section saying models may embark on vehicles. It does specifically deal with I think what your are trying to deal with. read the embarking and disembarkins section, also note under transport capacity third paragraph. No to the flamer!

nosferatu1001 wrote:So rules which pertain only to measure to units somehow allows you to measure to specific models?

Fail.

Obviously, you do not understand what is explained on page 3. A unit might be a single model, a unit might be a group of models. When you put those two things together, and then also add in how to measure to a unit inside a transport, and the wonderful question of how do you measure to a model inside a transport. The anwser is obvious.

Your argument is conceded as you are now simply making up rules.

You do not get to tell me what my arguement is, how it should be conducted or when it is over. Seeings how you cannot and will not show any kind of rules to back your claim. You have lost deal with it!

Now to disect your other fail:

1) It tells you to select the drop pods. It does not say "and any contained unit", just the drop pods.

You have to choose the transport to arrive yes, but guess what is inside those transports!!!. Also, at this point you have already declared how both the drop pod and the units inside are arriving. It does actually contain more info then you are reading.

2) "Units" in this context indicates the drop pod(s) selected to make the DPA. Odd, a whole section about DROP PODS talking about DROP PODS. Who would have thought!

Really, show me where it says exactly what you are saying as that would be a nice bit of info to have. The section as you should know as you are flaming me on, contains info on other units/models. Interesting how you can not see that.

3) The last line tells you what happens IF a unit has arrived using DPA and what it can then do. It does NOT contain permission to actually make the assault. I assume you can tell the difference? Or maybe not.

Which means that arriving by deepstrike via drop pod, see that right there, the drop pod confers deepstrike in the past tense. (Oh what a shocked look on your face) Which means it can happen, where as you have shown no credible evidence to your claim. So please get off the drop pod arguement and back to the outflanking vendetta arguement.

Fail all round KP

Actually, you have been the only one to fail!

Kapitalist-Pig wrote:First to help zeshin, you need to read the section saying models may embark on vehicles. It does specifically deal with I think what your are trying to deal with. read the embarking and disembarkins section, also note under transport capacity third paragraph. No to the flamer!

I was kinda hoping you'd take a re-read of that section. It talks about units embarking and disembarking, but gives not restriction or permission on vehicle movement other than to lay out what happens with vehicles or infantry who have moved before embarking/disembarking. An example of what I am saying is that a unit may embark on a skimmer and that skimmer may than move over impassable terrain. The embarked unit does not have to have the Skimmer rule in order for the skimmer to move. A unit in a vehicle may essentially move as that vehicle while embarked with no special permission required. If however your point on outflank were correct than the implication would be that no transport vehicle could go more than 6 inches per turn, nor could it utilize special rules such as being a skimmer.

KP - so you are saying a unit can arrive via deepstrike without having the DS rule?

You have yet to show how the unit gets Deepstrike. You know, the entire crux of your argument being that arriving from reserves requries that.

Yes, your argument failed because you made up rules. I want you to measure to model B in the unit. You CANNOT do so as you can only measure to the unit. Thus your argument has failed, and your making rules up does nto alter this.

Bye.

Kapitalist-Pig wrote:
Now to disect your other fail:

1) It tells you to select the drop pods. It does not say "and any contained unit", just the drop pods.

You have to choose the transport to arrive yes, but guess what is inside those transports!!!. Also, at this point you have already declared how both the drop pod and the units inside are arriving. It does actually contain more info then you are reading.

So... are you arguing against yourself now? This is the exact thing you're arguing doesn't work in other situations, and you haven't provided any language that actually makes this situation special for the embarked unit.

Gorkamorka wrote:

Kapitalist-Pig wrote:
Now to disect your other fail:

1) It tells you to select the drop pods. It does not say "and any contained unit", just the drop pods.

You have to choose the transport to arrive yes, but guess what is inside those transports!!!. Also, at this point you have already declared how both the drop pod and the units inside are arriving. It does actually contain more info then you are reading.

So... are you arguing against yourself now? This is the exact thing you're arguing doesn't work in other situations, and you haven't provided any language that actually makes this situation special for the embarked unit.

Got to agree with Gorkamorka, it does seem pretty silly to argue for an entire thread that drop pods and outflanking vendettas/valkyries aren't the same only to then change your mind and still claim that someone else has "failed".

KP has done a bang up job debunking the popular Mythos that the IG skimmer works much like a SM drop pod. KP has shown the rules clearly for how the DP works while no has shown even one rule which explicitly states the IG skimmer can outflank with guardsmen onboard. It's all based upon inference and your best guess how you believe it to work. That is fine in and of itself but it no way validly supports the argument.

BloodThirSTAR wrote:KP has done a bang up job debunking the popular Mythos that the IG skimmer works much like a SM drop pod. KP has shown the rules clearly for how the DP works while no has shown even one rule which explicitly states the IG skimmer can outflank with guardsmen onboard. It's all based upon inference and your best guess how you believe it to work. That is fine in and of itself but it no way validly supports the argument.

And again by that logic any transport vehicle which has an infantry unit embarked may not move as a vehicle because the infantry unit does not have the appropriate vehicle rules.

BloodThirSTAR wrote:KP has done a bang up job debunking the popular Mythos that the IG skimmer works much like a SM drop pod. KP has shown the rules clearly for how the DP works while no has shown even one rule which explicitly states the IG skimmer can outflank with guardsmen onboard. It's all based upon inference and your best guess how you believe it to work. That is fine in and of itself but it no way validly supports the argument.

Heh, If by that you mean he has managed to be consistently wrong and inconsistent in his arguments, yeah, I'll agree with you. He hasn't quoted a single rule that says the squad in a Drop Pod can Deep Strike. Not one. Yet he insists it can. Either both work or neither works. It's really that simple.

Look at it this way. If you have to base your argument around the drop pod it's not much of an argument is it? Rules from one codex do not necessarily apply to another. And KP has shown all the rules for which he has based his position. How many times does he have to repeat himself?

BloodThirSTAR wrote:Look at it this way. If you have to base your argument around the drop pod it's not much of an argument is it? Rules from one codex do not necessarily apply to another. And KP has shown all the rules for which he has based his position. How many times does he have to repeat himself?

And infantry being transported in a skimmer when that infantry unit does not have the Skimmer rule?

BloodThirSTAR wrote:Look at it this way. If you have to base your argument around the drop pod it's not much of an argument is it? Rules from one codex do not necessarily apply to another. And KP has shown all the rules for which he has based his position. How many times does he have to repeat himself?

So providing an analogous situation, which requires an all or nothing answer (KPs "reading" of the rules requires either droppods cannot carry units or both DP AND Valks can carry units. There is NO MIDDLE GROUND) isnt worth it?

Sorry, that is exactly what a good argument is. I'm not surprised at your stance, however.

KP has shown an inconsistent approach which alters seemingly at random. It requires ignoring rules, making up random additional restrictions, which nothing else has to follow (like the droppod) and simply *making up rules* in order to make drop pods work again.

None of this constitutes a "good" argument. Not a single bit.

Okay lets take another look at the situation. The rule that I have shown, that the drop pod actually gains deepstrike is from the reserves rule. It has DPA, which says that drop pods deepstrike per the mission specail rules section in the brb, the pages I am refering you to are, 94-95. Specifcally, under arriving from reserves 3rd paragraph.

Zeshin you are clearly not understanding what I am trying to refer you to. Vehicles have thier own movement, I think we all know that. The problem is that you are in essence asking a question which has been answered and you are ignoring it. Also, this has nothing to do with arriving from reserves. To ease your mind I will go through the motions again. Trasports are covered on page 66, skimmers are covered on page 71, hopes this helps again. I would also like to note that skimmer is a type of vehicle, thusly and for that reason it is listed under the vehcile section in the BRB.

Don Mondo, I actually have not changed my stance one bit. I am answering the question being posed to me. While I am also trying to get those very same people to give me rules that back up thier postion. As I am sure you have read the entire thread to make a statment that I have changed my postion many times, please state where my opinion has changed. I feel like you actually, have not enen read this topic going back over this post you put up. You also do not add anything to this thread by making such statments which in fact hinder the discussion, and is against the forum rules. I have quoted many rules here, go back over the thread and see for yourself.

Zeshin again show me where you are getting that units inside hinder the movement of a vehicle, and we can go from there. I see in the vehicle section where it defines vehicles movement.

AlmightyWalrus, Gorkamorka, I have in fact shown and given citation of where I got this opinion. I said that both the drop pods and the units inside are arriving via DPA, which also states that the drop pod gains Deepstrike from the reserves rules, which is in the mission specail rules section. Allowing both the Drop Pods and units they are carrying to arrive from reserve. I have however not been presented with any evidence that the Vendetta/Valk arguement has any such information to back it up.

Nos please see above as I have stated it mulitple times and yet you have not read it somehow. Also, I would like for you to add a citation for your claim the outflanking veterans can arrive from reserve without the scouts,infiltrate, or outflank special rule. Also, Nos please tell me how you plan to show that you can make me measure to model B in a tactical squad anywhere in the rules and I will answer that very silly question.

Kapitalist-Pig wrote:Okay lets take another look at the situation. The rule that I have shown, that the drop pod actually gains deepstrike is from the reserves rule. It has DPA, which says that drop pods deepstrike per the mission specail rules section in the brb, the pages I am refering you to are, 94-95. Specifcally, under arriving from reserves 3rd paragraph.

I said that both the drop pods and the units inside are arriving via DPA, which also states that the drop pod gains Deepstrike from the reserves rules, which is in the mission specail rules section. Allowing both the Drop Pods and units they are carrying to arrive from reserve.

How is this evidence for your argument? Where does the DPA rule grant deepstrike to a drop pod's passengers or state that the pod is specially allowed to carry an embarked unit while arriving via the deepstrike granted by DPA?
You appear to be working very hard to prove that drop pods work without such specific language... which would prove your entire argument wrong.

Zeshin again show me where you are getting that units inside hinder the movement of a vehicle, and we can go from there. I see in the vehicle section where it defines vehicles movement.

This is the exact argument people are using to disprove your main point.
I am at a loss that you can't see the irony.

Because under your rules you are requiring that the embarked unit are "arriving from reserves using outflank" and therefore you must be able to measure to every model in the unit. You cannot do so. No amount of making up rules about what page 3 says gets around this. Which gives you a problem.

On the other hand I have shown GENERAL permission via:

General rule: I am embarked on a vehicle, and move with the vehicle
SPecific rule: Valk can Outflank.

And you have been unable to show a *specific* restriction. Utterly, utterly failed to do so.

No requirement for the embarked unit to have any ability to Outflank can be shown, as the embarked unit is NOT arriving via Outflank - they are an embarked unit.

Your argument fails spectacularly in that you attempt to make the unit within the Drop pod gain Deepstrike (or possibly not - you keep changin subject between unit and embarked unit, and confuse the two repeatedly) so that you can remove the contradiction in the your misreading of the rules results in the unit inside the droppod not being able to deepsrtike with the droppod, as they do not have the Deepstrike rule (and NEVER gain it)


Automatically Appended Next Post:
I assume KP is trolling, as KP was apparently "ignorant" of the core mechanic in 5th edition allowing you to measure to / from an embarked unit. Which is such a core part of the game it doesnt seem reasonable to assume actual ignorance.

I'd suggest we stop feeding the inconsistent troll.

KP, the fact that the rules don't require an infantry unit to have the skimmer rules to ride in a skimmer, or why an infantry unit in a DP don't have to have the DS (or drop pod assault) rule to arrive by drop pod is the point. A vehicle may transport an infantry unit using the vehicles rules for movement/deployment, not the infantry units rules.

BloodThirSTAR wrote:Look at it this way. If you have to base your argument around the drop pod it's not much of an argument is it? Rules from one codex do not necessarily apply to another. And KP has shown all the rules for which he has based his position. How many times does he have to repeat himself?

Until he gets it right. Which he hasn't.............................


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Kapitalist-Pig wrote:
Don Mondo, I actually have not changed my stance one bit. I am answering the question being posed to me. While I am also trying to get those very same people to give me rules that back up thier postion. As I am sure you have read the entire thread to make a statment that I have changed my postion many times, please state where my opinion has changed. I feel like you actually, have not enen read this topic going back over this post you put up. You also do not add anything to this thread by making such statments which in fact hinder the discussion, and is against the forum rules. I have quoted many rules here, go back over the thread and see for yourself.

Zeshin again show me where you are getting that units inside hinder the movement of a vehicle, and we can go from there. I see in the vehicle section where it defines vehicles movement.

Actually, you have, just reading your posts proves that. And we have given you the rules, try reading them.

And re what you asked of Zeshin, that's the exact argument YOU are using to try to disprove the Valk/Vendetta ability, that an embarked unti affects a transport's movement. So how about YOU show that the untis inside hinder the movement of the transport. If you cannot, then the Valk/Vendetta can Outflank with a unit embarked.

No one has listed a specific rule that explicitly states you can scout move guardsmen in a vendetta or Valkyrie. This is an excellent exercise however for anyone who wants to learn how to obfuscate.

BloodThirSTAR wrote:No one has listed a specific rule that explicitly states you can scout move guardsmen in a vendetta or Valkyrie. This is an excellent exercise however for anyone who wants to learn how to obfuscate.

"A transport may carry a single infantry unit and/or any number of independent characters (as long as they count as infantry), up to a total number of models equal to the vehicles transport capacity." Page 66, main rulebook, section entitled "Transport Vehicles" fourth paragraph down. You are not going to get any more specific unfortunately just as you are not going to find specific permission for a Tau Pathfinder squad to move over impassable terrain while in a Devilfish.

And again can anyone prove that an embarked squad is deployed from a table edge? And show where we measure to it and it's models for it's movment?

ChrisCP wrote:And again can anyone prove that an embarked squad is deployed from a table edge? And show where we measure to it and it's models for it's movment?

Umm, you don't need to. If a squad is inside a transport they move and deploy as the vehicle (otherwise basic vehicle movement wouldn't even work). There are instances where you are told to measure to/from them for shooting etc but that is all.

ChrisCP wrote:And again can anyone prove that an embarked squad is deployed from a table edge? And show where we measure to it and it's models for it's movment?

Nos did we just not go over this, when measuring to a unit measure to the transport. Now you are going back and forth on this question.

Check a couple of pages ago actually, I have proven that they do arrive from the table edge. So you would need to measure there.

Secondly, I do not even know where to begin with this seeings how I have made every attempt to keep this a polite discussion. Nos you fail, you just fail to understand to try to understand or even take anything that is not your idea into account. I am truely saddened by your obvious disrespect to me and everyone else.

Zeshin, the skimmer rules are carried by the transport, which I have shown you can carry units inside. They have the rules to allow units to be transported page 66. I just do not understand how you do not get that.

Don Mondo, you know what actually prevents units arriving from deepstrike, outflank? Oh yea page 94, which I have cited numerous times and have been ignored, where it says all units kept in reserves must declare how they are entering play!!!!! This has nothing to do with movement and you seem to, as well as zeshin and Nos, fail to grasp this. Seeings how the rule says you must explain how your units are organized, and that units and their transports arrive together, they must have rules which allow them to arrive anyway other then coming on from their owners table edge together!. Seeings how veterans do not have scout or inflitrate or outflank, they cannot in fact be declared to outflank and the transport rules do not cover this. How hard is that to understand????? I have given you the reserve rules over and over and over again. page 94 please for all of our sanity read them, and leave the flaming out of it. I am not arguing that the vehicles movement is hindered I am arguing that it is an illegal starting place for your models to come on the table.

Kapitalist-Pig wrote:Zeshin, the skimmer rules are carried by the transport, which I have shown you can carry units inside. They have the rules to allow units to be transported page 66. I just do not understand how you do not get that.

I don't understand how you don't "get" that those same implied permissions* your talking about allow a unit to outflank in a transport just as easily as they allow a unit to travel 12" in a skimmer over impassable terrain (or any other movement which infantry cannot normally do).

*nowhere does it say that a unit may be transported, simply that they may embark on a transport vehicle.

Kapitalist-Pig wrote:Don Mondo, you know what actually prevents units arriving from deepstrike, outflank? Oh yea page 94, which I have cited numerous times and have been ignored, where it says all units kept in reserves must declare how they are entering play!!!!! This has nothing to do with movement and you seem to, as well as zeshin and Nos, fail to grasp this. Seeings how the rule says you must explain how your units are organized, and that units and their transports arrive together, they must have rules which allow them to arrive anyway other then coming on from their owners table edge together!. Seeings how veterans do not have scout or inflitrate or outflank, they cannot in fact be declared to outflank and the transport rules do not cover this. How hard is that to understand????? I have given you the reserve rules over and over and over again. page 94 please for all of our sanity read them, and leave the flaming out of it. I am not arguing that the vehicles movement is hindered I am arguing that it is an illegal starting place for your models to come on the table.

Sorry, I ignored this originally because of all the bold and "??????" internet anger BS. When declaring reserves you are declaring that the unit is in the transport and by the same implied permission I noted above your unit may arrive inside the transport using the transports rules (e.g. outflank, DS).

A unit embarked in the transport moves with the transport... they dont suddenly get left behind when the vehicle moves. And the vehicle moves according to the rules according to that vehicle. If a vehicle is elected to be in reserve with another unit, but they are not embarked on it, they must be deployed together, if they plan to outflank, they must be in the vehicle.

Units with scout, embarked in a vehicle confer the scout rule onto the vehicle, the scout rule allows for outflank when the unit is kept in reserve.

Page 66 states that when a unit embarks, its removed from the table, and noted that the unit is being transported by that vehicle.

"Seeings how veterans do not have scout or inflitrate or outflank, they cannot in fact be declared to outflank and the transport rules do not cover this"

If the veterans are deployed within a vehicle that has the scout rule, that vehicle does not lose the scout rule.

zeshin wrote:

ChrisCP wrote:And again can anyone prove that an embarked squad is deployed from a table edge? And show where we measure to it and it's models for it's movment?

Umm, you don't need to. If a squad is inside a transport they move and deploy as the vehicle (otherwise basic vehicle movement wouldn't even work). There are instances where you are told to measure to/from them for shooting etc but that is all.

Kapitalist-Pig wrote:

ChrisCP wrote:And again can anyone prove that an embarked squad is deployed from a table edge? And show where we measure to it and it's models for it's movment?

Nos did we just not go over this, when measuring to a unit measure to the transport. Now you are going back and forth on this question.

Movment measurement is done to models, making movement of a unit inside a transpot impossible to measure.
You do not measure movement for a unit in a transport.
The unit is arriving embarked in their vehicle.
The outflank move is measure from the table edge to the models that have move on from reserves.
We cannot measure to the models involved in the infantry unit.
Ergo - no transport can carry an embarked unit on from reserves or a transport can carry units on from reserves.

BloodThirSTAR wrote:No one has listed a specific rule that explicitly states you can scout move guardsmen in a vendetta or Valkyrie. This is an excellent exercise however for anyone who wants to learn how to obfuscate.

Please find the explicit rule allowing you to deploy Guardsmen into Woods inside your deployment zone.

If you cannot do so then perhaps you will learn just how the game rules work. Expicit permission is not required if you have obtained general permission.

KP - apparently you cannot tell the difference between ChrisCP and myself.

For the final time of asking: find the rules that allow you to deepstrike when embarked on a Drop Pod. You seem to require that the unit also has Deepstrike, yet have been unable to show this . Currently your "argument", in the loosest sense of the word, denies units from entering play via a drop pod.
In addition page 3 does not say what you state it does. It does not state that you can measure to a model by measuring to the unit. Not at all. You are making rules up in a rules discussion.

nosferatu1001 wrote:

BloodThirSTAR wrote:No one has listed a specific rule that explicitly states you can scout move guardsmen in a vendetta or Valkyrie. This is an excellent exercise however for anyone who wants to learn how to obfuscate.

Please find the explicit rule allowing you to deploy Guardsmen into Woods inside your deployment zone.

If you cannot do so then perhaps you will learn just how the game rules work. Expicit permission is not required if you have obtained general permission.

KP - apparently you cannot tell the difference between ChrisCP and myself.

For the final time of asking: find the rules that allow you to deepstrike when embarked on a Drop Pod. You seem to require that the unit also has Deepstrike, yet have been unable to show this . Currently your "argument", in the loosest sense of the word, denies units from entering play via a drop pod.
In addition page 3 does not say what you state it does. It does not state that you can measure to a model by measuring to the unit. Not at all. You are making rules up in a rules discussion.

Actually Nos, I stated that page 3 defines what units and models are when combined with the other rules we talked about (page 66 embarking) thats how you measure to a model embarked in a vehicle. Seeings how I am going to have to type this again, HERE WE GO, A unit that deepstrikes via drop pod. For all you general permission specialists, what does via mean? Does that possibly mean by way of? So lets work this out by replacing via with by way of! A unit that deepstrikes by way of drop pod.... so there, you have general permission, because you can take a drop pod as a transport. I know I annoy the crap out of you Nos but really this constant childlike behaviour is enough. Grow up! I appaulogize for refering to you but in the end did you not just ask the same question in the end?
And have I not answered it over again? You fail, yet again, to do anything but take issue with me. You also have a wonderful nack, might I add, for presenting arguements that have nothing to do with what is currently being discussed (well done, well done indeed!). Straight out of left field that one is.

I would also like to take a moment and note that under rolling for reserves section does say that you deploy the unit, so yes the unit inside is deployed when it arrives with a transport. Thus making it harder for everyone!! (that is suppose to be funny)

Zeshin actually, if you read the embarking rules it does say that a "transport may carry...." page 66 under transport capacity. With this statment, and the embarking rules it is quite clear that yes models/units may be carried/transported in a game of 40k. Also, the skimmer rules if I am not mistaken are actually, rules for a vehicle type. So the skimmer rules cannot be applied to a unit.

Seriphis I am not claiming that the vehicle loses anything. I am simply stating that when the vehicle, and unit it is carrying is declared for reserves you cannot claim that they will be outflanking seeings how, 1) they both arrive (are deployed) together, and 2) both do not have the rules to allow them to outflank. It might be different if say, the reserves rules said something like a vehicle may carry any unit onto the board from reserves with any special rules the transport may have, but we are not that lucky. We could also be lucky if the scouts/infiltrate rules allowed the vehicle to pass its rule over, but we only have squads passing it onto their transports.

ChrisCp that seems like a slippery slope arguement right there. It is not one or the other, seeing how the rules make it clear that you must declare how each unit is arriving from reserves, please cite for me where it says you can claim to outflank without the scouts/infiltrate/outflank rule. It seems we have all been lost in the weeds about this entire discussion, never have I said that vehicles cannot move as normal, or that they cannot transport. (actually it is all my oppenents coming up with these question) I have simply made the case over and over again, with no proof from the other side about their claim, that units cannot arrive using a special rule they do not have. I have stated that, units are allowed to arrive by a special rule given or obtained by taking the vehicle they are being transported in. Now before you all get your panties in a twist, DPA does mention units arriving by way of, so stop before you start to blow a capularie.

"A unit that arrives via" does not tell you that the unit CAN arrive via the drop pod, it tells you what happens ****IF**** they do.

So no, you fail again. And again. And again. And how is the drop pod not relevant? Have you not realised the two are analogous?

I have declared that the unit is arriving frmo reserve embarked in the Skimmer. Done. Next?

I would suggest a spell check, as your "arguments" are getting more incoherent. Less use of emoticons would help as well.

(also: no, no annoyance. Amusement at your constant flip flopping, your abiltiy to MAKE UP RULES when you want to, and bemusement at your desire to add arbitrary restrictions to one unit but not another. Brilliant "argument" you have here)

Finally: Page 3 does not let you measure to a unit if you want to measure to a specific model in the unit. A-> B does not necessarily mean that B->A. This isnt your only logical fallacy this thread, but is perhaps one you can finally realise you are making.

Kapitalist-Pig wrote:

Actually Nos, I stated that page 3 defines what units and models are when combined with the other rules we talked about (page 66 embarking) thats how you measure to a model embarked in a vehicle.

This is false

Seeings how I am going to have to type this again, HERE WE GO, A unit that deepstrikes via drop pod. For all you general permission specialists, what does via mean? Does that possibly mean by way of? So lets work this out by replacing via with by way of! A unit that deepstrikes by way of drop pod.... so there, you have general permission, because you can take a drop pod as a transport.

This is important

I would also like to take a moment and note that under rolling for reserves section does say that you deploy the unit, so yes the unit inside is deployed when it arrives with a transport.

This is also important

if you read the embarking rules it does say that a "transport may carry...." page 66 under transport capacity. With this statment, and the embarking rules it is quite clear that yes models/units may be carried/transported in a game of 40k. Also, the skimmer rules if I am not mistaken are actually, rules for a vehicle type. So the skimmer rules cannot be applied to a unit.

This is inane

I am not claiming that the vehicle loses anything.

Important...

I am simply stating that when the vehicle, and unit it is carrying is declared for reserves you cannot claim that they will be outflanking seeings how, 1) they both arrive (are deployed) together, and 2) both do not have the rules to allow them to outflank.

This is where your argument starts to contradict itself with reference to the important parts

It might be different if say, the reserves rules said something like a vehicle may carry any unit onto the board from reserves with any special rules the transport may have, but we are not that lucky.

Drop pods don't say that either

We could also be lucky if the scouts/infiltrate rules allowed the vehicle to pass its rule over, but we only have squads passing it onto their transports.

ChrisCp that seems like a slippery slope arguement right there.

It isn't, your assertion that one can't outflank with a unit because they are being deployed in an invalid location rests upon the principal, the unit is 'arriving by way of transport' if one could (had to) measure the movement of the models when they are embarked then, yes, they are arriving from an illegal location, as however they are embarked and we can not measure to them/movement for them it is legal

It is not one or the other, seeing how the rules make it clear that you must declare how each unit is arriving from reserves,

Arriving together with the transport, or, arriving via transport

please cite for me where it says you can claim to outflank without the scouts/infiltrate/outflank rule.

I don't need to they are embarked and one can not measure their movement

It seems we have all been lost in the weeds about this entire discussion, never have I said that vehicles cannot move as normal, or that they cannot transport.

This is what you are saying however, if I go flat out with my trukk then my boyz have performed an illegal move >6"

(actually it is all my oppenents coming up with these question) I have simply made the case over and over again, with no proof from the other side about their claim,

You or they if these are their questions do not seem to understand the proof - ever try to force understanding on someone?

that units cannot arrive using a special rule they do not have.

They don't the vehicle does and it's carrying (moving for) them

I have stated that, units are allowed to arrive by a special rule given or obtained by taking the vehicle they are being transported in. Now before you all get your panties in a twist, DPA does mention units arriving by way of, so stop before you start to blow a capularie.

"Capillary" - enunciate better.

No common vehicle ever says that it conferrers a rule iirc, your reading of the word 'via' to means 'grants the deep-strike rule to the embarked unit' is fallacious, it doesn't say that and if it did it would actually be necessary to scatter both the pod and the contents as both units would have to follow the deep-strike rules

I apologise for the quote tags, I hate them but this was easiest, and we ran over my cat when we arrived home.

NO worries, I normally C&P the opening quote for the user, and just add manual /quote tags.

KP will probably retort with "read page 3!!!!" anyway, not sure its worth bothering. Logical fallacies abound with KPs posts on this thread, anyway.

Sorry to hear about your cat, hope he/she's ok - have 2 myself. (yes, a gay couple with cats, who'd have thought )

Guys, we might as well give up. KP ain't gonna change his mind and we ain't gonna change ours.

Agreed. Besides, arguing against someone who makes up rules is tricky...

Sorry to hear about your cat chriscp, to address somethings. First that quote you said was inane, I was actually trying to point zeshin to the rules that allow transports to carry/transport units. I am sorry that I confused you seeings how I am arguing with multiple people, I thought I put his name in front of that citation.

I have one question for you though, how can you say "my vendetta and the squad it is carrying are going to outflank", when the squad does not have any rules to allow it to outflank? See how that works there. My problem all along has been people must state how any unit they have in reserve are going to arrive (be deployed). Unlike the drop pod there is no/none/zero/zilch amount of evidence that the vehicle passes any kind of ability, or allows the unit inside to arrive any other way then coming in from their owners side. If there is please cite a page reference and I am more then willing to hunt it down. I would also like you to note that under embarking, it says "If the players need to measure a range involving an embarked unit (execpt for shooting), this range is measured to or from the vehicles hull." So I have provided that you can in fact measure the range of where the vehicle, and models arrived together from. As I am sure youhave noticed, I post when I can about something that I am involved in. Last night I got home pretty late, and had a brain fart when spelling some words. So kind of you to notice, and point out btw.

Oh and Nos I do not make up any rules, nor do I insult people over and over again for no other reason then to make myself feel better, or to just insult them, please stop this. Also stop making claims about me as you do not know who I am, how I think, or how I treat other people.

This is where you are creating a requirement that is not in the rules. (and where Nos is indicating you are making up rules)

You do not state the embarked squad is Outflanking just like you do not state the SM Tactical in a DP is deep striking. You merely embark the unit and then DS or outflank the transport.

The reserves rules take care of the rest. They ask -
How do I roll for the unit and transports?
Together.

How do they come in?
Embarked in the transport.

When successful what does the transport do?
It is outflanking.

Is the embarked unit arriving from reserves?
Yes it is, and doing so inside its transport.

All conditions satisfied.

Also, there is zero, nada, zilch that implies a DP provides the DS ability to an embarked squad. All it says is if you arrive in it by DS (and it doesn't care how you do so) you cannot
assault.

Edit: Also, for the last time. You do not state how every unit arrives from reserves. You just indicate which is DS, Infiltrating or Outflanking. Otherwise they just arrive from reserves with the SPECIFIC condition they be embarked on the transport putting them in the transport.

Actually KP is making up rules in two areas - you got the first, the second is in making the hilarious claim that you can measure to embarked models, despite no rules allowing you to do so. The rules that KP are using imply one direction, and KP is making the logical fallacy (at least one area KP is consistent on, at least) that it implies the other way. It doesnt.

KP - you are making up rules, as you are adding restr4ictions that simply do not exist. Not at all. You also make up rules for Drop Pod Assault in a vain attempt to allow them to work while denying Vendettas using the same logic.

Give up. Noone will believe your argument, as it simply isnt logical, doesnt follow the rules in the rulebook, and makes up rules out of whole cloth. You have been shown, repeatedly, where you have made up rules yet you will claim the sky is green seemingly forever. I have not got the energy to continue to show you where you are wrong, as you are not willing to listen to anyone.

nosferatu1001 wrote:I have not got the energy to continue to show you where you are wrong, as you are not willing to listen to anyone.

So stop pretending that someone has to 'win' the discussion, and move on.