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Hey folks:

A Vendetta can outflank.

Is there rules justification anywhere saying that the unit inside can too? IE, terminators in a vendetta outflanking....vets, ogryns, anything?

This has been done to death, a quick search would reveal it.

Yes, the unit inside may outflank, as it is not *aqctually* the one performing the Outflank move - the Vendetta is.

It takes a brute force ignorance of the rules to rule otherwise.

Dashofpepper wrote:Hey folks:

A Vendetta can outflank.

Is there rules justification anywhere saying that the unit inside can too? IE, terminators in a vendetta outflanking....vets, ogryns, anything?

A Drop Pod Can Deep Strike.

Is there rules justification anywhere saying the unit inside can too? i.e. Tactical Marines in a Drop Pod Deep Striking...Sternguard,Grey Hunters, Blood Claws, anything?

As nos pointed out, it's been done to death.

Deep striking is a deployment method, outflank is a special rule. Different scenarios....

Dashofpepper wrote:Deep striking is a deployment method, outflank is a special rule. Different scenarios....

... No it isn't. Outflanking is a way of deploying from reserves, just like Deep Strike.

I brought this up a few times Dash. From the way I read it, no. There isn't anything saying that the Vendetta can confer it's ability onto passengers. However, the consensus here, is that yes it can.


When you bring this argument up....the guys here will compare it to the Drop Pod, and it's ability to DS with troops inside it. A valid point of view, but I think there is a lack of clarity on the issue.


Either way, you will get a good consensus that yes, the Vendetta confers its ability to Outflank onto any passengers it's legally allowed to carry.



Clay

Primarch wrote:Either way, you will get a good consensus that yes, the Vendetta confers its ability to Outflank onto any passengers it's legally allowed to carry.

Mainly because that is what the rules say, no matter how much you protest otherwise.

I have 2 problems with their argument.



1. The book tells you specifically how you can arrive from reserves. If the unit inside the Vendetta isn't outflanking, as you say, then how is it deploying onto the table again? There are 3 ways, Deep strike, move on from your table edge, or outflank. The Vets/Termies/whatever are doing one of the 3, by RAW if they aren't, then they aren't following the rules of the book. This means that saying the Vets aren't outflanking is downright wrong, as they must enter play in some form or fashion.


2. Deep striking Drop Pods have NOTHING to do with the Vendetta argument. Are there Drop Pods in the IG book? No. Why GWAR continiously wants to refer to another rule in another codex to prove his point, when most times he is the one arguing against such things is beyond me. If Gwar wants to start a thread about the legality of the DP deepstriking with passengers, then so be it, but again, this thread is about the Vendetta and it's passengers.


If you want to talk RAI, fine, I can do that too. The Drop Pod has ONE function in the game, it cannot deploy any other way, it can't move on from the regular deployment table edge, nor can it outflank. So if it cannot confer it's ability onto the unit inside, then it is COMPLETELY USELESS AS A DEDICATED TRANSPORT.

The Vendetta on the other hand. Can deploy by itself when it outflanks, or can carry troops that have that ability already. It can also move onto the table from it's rear deployment edge like any other transport, or *gasp* it can start on the table. So to argue that they are the same when talking about RAI is just silly. Is it the RAI that Vendettas can outflank with non-outflankers aboard? I have no idea, we'd need the author to speak on that. Is it at least cloudy? Yup.

Is it pretty obvious that the Drop Pod RAI is that you can indeed confer that ability onto Troops inside? You'd would find it hard to come up with a valid reason for arguing against this.


Either way Dash. These guys are not going to change their mind, I'd just let it go if I were you.



Clay


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Gwar! wrote:

Primarch wrote:Either way, you will get a good consensus that yes, the Vendetta confers its ability to Outflank onto any passengers it's legally allowed to carry.

Mainly because that is what the rules say, no matter how much you protest otherwise.

So you keep saying, yet....the rules don't actually say anything of the sort......




Clay

Primarch - all of your arguments have been rebutted before now, all of them. Repeatedly.

The Vendetta has permission to carry an embarked unit, and the vendetta has permsision to Outflank. The unit inside is NOT PERFORMING AN OUTFLANK.

Simple set of permissions that after 3 threads at least you still fail to grasp.

It is not only consensus, it is the rules....

Sorry, but if you allow one, you allow the other. End of Discussion.

Yea, deepstriking drop pods full of non DS units certainly points to outflanking vendettas with non outflanking passengers.

EDIT: clarity


Clay: What do you perceive as the difference between deepstrike and outflank? They are both ways of coming in from reserve.

The drop pod is a dedicated transport with it's own rules. Does anyone have an example of a unit purchased seperatly that conveys the ability to another unit? I don't think scouts can outflank with a Land Raider?

Valks cannot transport Ogryns.

If the pathfinders are in the devilfish, does it get scout movement?

eimaj wrote:The drop pod is a dedicated transport with it's own rules. Does anyone have an example of a unit purchased seperatly that conveys the ability to another unit? I don't think scouts can outflank with a Land Raider?

Why is being a Dedicated Transport so important to you.

They have ONE AND EXACTLY ONE DIFFERENCE to other vehicles, in that only the unit it was bought for may begin embarked.

sounds fair. But wait...do units confer their deployment abilities to a vehicle they are in?

Nightwatch wrote:sounds fair. But wait...do units confer their deployment abilities to a vehicle they are in?

No. And neither do Vehicles confer the ability to the units inside. However, when a Valk Outflanks or Deep Strikes, IT IS THE ONE DOING IT. The unit is just along for the ride.

Gwar! wrote:

eimaj wrote:The drop pod is a dedicated transport with it's own rules. Does anyone have an example of a unit purchased seperatly that conveys the ability to another unit? I don't think scouts can outflank with a Land Raider?

Why is being a Dedicated Transport so important to you.

They have ONE AND EXACTLY ONE DIFFERENCE to other vehicles, in that only the unit it was bought for may begin embarked.

Actually, technically there is another difference. If a unit in a Dedicated Transport has the ability to Outflank but the transport doesn't, then the unit passes the Outflank to the transport, as long as they are inside it when it arrives. The rules make no such allowance for non-Dedicated transports (p.94)

Dashofpepper wrote:Hey folks:

A Vendetta can outflank.

Is there rules justification anywhere saying that the unit inside can too? IE, terminators in a vendetta outflanking....vets, ogryns, anything?

first of all the FAQ on the GW website says that models such as orgryns or models wearing terminator armour cannot be transported by a valkyrie or vendetta.

nosferatu1001 wrote:Primarch - all of your arguments have been rebutted before now, all of them. Repeatedly.

The Vendetta has permission to carry an embarked unit, and the vendetta has permsision to Outflank. The unit inside is NOT PERFORMING AN OUTFLANK.

Simple set of permissions that after 3 threads at least you still fail to grasp.

It is not only consensus, it is the rules....

I heard you say all of that before. You fail to even read my posts, so I don't know why I bother, but here goes again. Please read the following.


Your contention is that the Vets inside the Vendetta are not outflanking. Only the vehicle is outflanking.


The rules say there are 3 ways to arrive from reserves. THREE.

They are;

1. Outflank
2. Deep strike
3. Move on from your own rear table edge


So, since you contend that the Vets are NOT Outflanking, then which one of the other 2 are they performing to get onto the table? Are they Deepstriking? Are they moving on from their own table edge?

My issue with the whole argument is that you guys are not quoting any rules to support your position. You just keep telling me I'm wrong because a Drop pod can do it, so a Vendetta should be able to. Or, the famous. "the vets aren't outflanking, only the Vendetta is."

Ive quoted you the rules a few times now that tell you what you are allowed to outflank with. I've also quoted you the rules for how you can deploy a model on the table that has been held in reserves. Please give me some rulebook quotes and or pages that tell me where it says either one of the two things you claim. If you can show me where it says the Vendetta confers its Outflank ability onto the unit inside, or if you can show me where it says that there is a super secret 4th way to enter play from reserves, then I will admit that I was wrong and move on.

The book goes so far as to explain to you that a Unit with the ability to Outflank, can confer said ability onto any dedicated transport they can use. Yet, completely missing from this section of the permissive rule set, is a rule telling us that a Vehicle(non-dedicated) can confer any of it's abilities onto a unit that rides in it.



Clay

Primarch wrote:
The rules say there are 3 ways to arrive from reserves. THREE.

They are;

1. Outflank
2. Deep strike
3. Move on from your own rear table edge

The rules LIST three different ways to arrive from reserves. In addition to those methods, you have the Necron monolith portal, the Dark Eldar web way portal, an obscure Eldar web way portal, Death Leaper's arrival mechanic, Sly Marbo's arrival mechanic, the Space Wolves outflank variant, ...

Where are all of those mechanisms in your supposedly exhaustive list?

Point taken. Which one of those do the Vets use again? I am unaware of any special deployment rules for Vet squads in the IG army. Maybe I missed something? Yes, of course Codex outranks rulebook for that stuff. But the Vets have no special deployment rules, so then would be bound by the rulebook, right?



Clay

Again, please explain why you think Tactical Squads cannot Deep Strike inside a Drop Pod.

Primarch wrote:Point taken. Which one of those do the Vets use again? I am unaware of any special deployment rules for Vet squads in the IG army. Maybe I missed something? Yes, of course Codex outranks rulebook for that stuff. But the Vets have no special deployment rules, so then would be bound by the rulebook, right?



Clay

Welp, for instance, they can hop in a valk and come in with it on a flank.

Gwar! wrote:Again, please explain why you think Tactical Squads cannot Deep Strike inside a Drop Pod.

Hmmm, explain something I never said? Again, you bring up a question about a unit that is totally unrelated to the question at hand. If you want to have a discussion about Drop Pods, then why don't you start a thread about it....



Clay


Automatically Appended Next Post:

apwill4765 wrote:

Primarch wrote:Point taken. Which one of those do the Vets use again? I am unaware of any special deployment rules for Vet squads in the IG army. Maybe I missed something? Yes, of course Codex outranks rulebook for that stuff. But the Vets have no special deployment rules, so then would be bound by the rulebook, right?



Clay

Welp, for instance, they can hop in a valk and come in with it on a flank.

Right. Because a Valk confers it's outflank ability on the unit inside the transport? What page are you reading that on?



Clay

Primarch wrote:

Gwar! wrote:Again, please explain why you think Tactical Squads cannot Deep Strike inside a Drop Pod.

Hmmm, explain something I never said? Again, you bring up a question about a unit that is totally unrelated to the question at hand. If you want to have a discussion about Drop Pods, then why don't you start a thread about it....

Clay

No, actually that is exactly what you said. You said:
The rules say there are 3 ways to arrive from reserves. THREE.

They are;

1. Outflank
2. Deep strike
3. Move on from your own rear table edge
And more regarding the Vets/Outflaning, yadda yadda, check your own post for details.
Bottom line, if, as you claim, the Vets cannot ride into the game in an Outflanking vehicle because they do not also have Outflank, then neither can the Tactical squad ride into the game in a deep striking vehicle, because they don't have deep strike. So yeah, you did say that. Not directly, but you said it.

Primarch wrote:

Gwar! wrote:Again, please explain why you think Tactical Squads cannot Deep Strike inside a Drop Pod.

Hmmm, explain something I never said? Again, you bring up a question about a unit that is totally unrelated to the question at hand. If you want to have a discussion about Drop Pods, then why don't you start a thread about it....

Ok, Lets try this again:

Yes or No:

A Squad that Cannot normally Outflank can Arrive From Reserved embarked upon a Transport vehicle that can out flank.

A Simple, Yes, or No Please.

don_mondo wrote:

Primarch wrote:

Gwar! wrote:Again, please explain why you think Tactical Squads cannot Deep Strike inside a Drop Pod.

Hmmm, explain something I never said? Again, you bring up a question about a unit that is totally unrelated to the question at hand. If you want to have a discussion about Drop Pods, then why don't you start a thread about it....

Clay

No, actually that is exactly what you said. You said:
The rules say there are 3 ways to arrive from reserves. THREE.

They are;

1. Outflank
2. Deep strike
3. Move on from your own rear table edge
And more regarding the Vets/Outflaning, yadda yadda, check your own post for details.
Bottom line, if, as you claim, the Vets cannot ride into the game in an Outflanking vehicle because they do not also have Outflank, then neither can the Tactical squad ride into the game in a deep striking vehicle, because they don't have deep strike. So yeah, you did say that. Not directly, but you said it.

Actually, I am not the one stating that a unit riding in a vehicle that outflanks doesn't actually outflank. That's the oppositions stance. So, in my opinion the squad inside is outflanking or deepstriking when it comes in inside a vehicle that arrives using those rules. What I said, was that the unit must be doing one of those things to be arriving on the table edge. So yeah. Re-read the thread.

My opponents in this thread insist that the Vets are NOT outflanking. I say that they are, because they must deploy using one of those three methods.....


Are you clear now?



Clay


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Gwar! wrote:

Primarch wrote:

Gwar! wrote:Again, please explain why you think Tactical Squads cannot Deep Strike inside a Drop Pod.

Hmmm, explain something I never said? Again, you bring up a question about a unit that is totally unrelated to the question at hand. If you want to have a discussion about Drop Pods, then why don't you start a thread about it....

Ok, Lets try this again:

Yes or No:

A Squad that Cannot normally Outflank can Arrive From Reserved embarked upon a Transport vehicle that can out flank.

A Simple, Yes, or No Please.

Yes.


As long as it enters play from its rear table edge, and doesn't Outflank. Since the rules for outflanking are pretty clear on who can do this. If it outflanks, then my answer is no.



Clay

So a squad that does not have deep strike cannot ride in a Drop Pod.......... Since it can only arrive via one of three ways, etc etc?

Ok, Lets try this again:

Yes or No:

A Squad that Cannot normally Outflank can Arrive From Reserved embarked upon a Transport vehicle that can out flank.

A Simple, Yes, or No Please.

Yes.


As long as it enters play from its rear table edge, and doesn't Outflank. Since the rules for outflanking are pretty clear on who can do this. If it outflanks, then my answer is no.

So you are also saying that a unit can arrive in a Deep Striking Transport, so long as it enters play from its rear table edge, and doesn't Deep Strike, correct?

Again, a simple yes or no please.