Hello community!

I am currently creating 45 battle reports of games I will be playing using the new Dark Eldar.

I want to get a real opinion on the army based on hands on gaming, and not internet opinions. To do this, I will be playing 45 games, using various Dark Eldar lists, against various opponents, to get a real feel for the army.

This will be a good read for both veterans and new players alike, as you may learn something from my games.

I am posting my Battle Reports here..

45 Games With Dark Eldar

... to keep things simple.

If you have any concerns, questions, complaints, or anything on your mind, please let me know! I want you to be a part of my experience as I play the games.

1500 Kabal Versus Orks - Game 1
1500 Kabal Versus Tau - Game 2
1500 Heamonculi Coven Versus Orks - Game 3
1500 Heamonculi Coven versus Ultramarines - Game 4
1500 Cirque de Commorragh versus Ultramarines - Game 5
1000 Wych Cult versus Space Wolves - Game 6
2500 Kabal versus Tyranids - Game 7
1500 Cult/Coven/Cabal versus Ultramarines - Game 8
1500 Coven versus Ultramarines - Game 9 NEW!
2500 No CC Kabal versus Blood Angels - Game 14
2500 Wych Cult versus Tyranids - Game 15
1500 Dark Eldar versus Tyranids (Army Swap!) - Game 16
2500 Web Way Foot versus Eldar - Game 17
500 Hellion Gangers versus Tau - Game 18
1000 Hellion Gangers versus Dirty 'Ard Boyz - Game 19
500 Hellion Gangers versus Chaos Space Marines - Game 20

Wow, nice reports. DE seem to be a real powerhouse. Any plans on taking on a MEQ army?

MasticatorDeelux wrote:Wow, nice reports. DE seem to be a real powerhouse. Any plans on taking on a MEQ army?

I have three games I have yet to write about. Two of them are against Marines

Nice Reports, some good insight there. What's the point cost of the Ghost Armor for an Archon? That makes him a 4+/6++ like a Scourge right?

Sigmatron wrote:Nice Reports, some good insight there. What's the point cost of the Ghost Armor for an Archon?

Rumor has it at 10 points....

That makes him a 4+/6++ like a Scourge right?

Yes, this is correct sir.

Very nice battle reports, looking forward to more soon.

Nice reports!

If you like the splinter cannons so much you should look at the venoms with dual splinter cannons. I've used them in a few games and they lay down some serious firepower.

You might as well play tau the way ur using de.

Smitty0305 wrote:You might as well play tau the way ur using de.

lol, no thanks... I like 1) the ability to hit my targets when shooting and 2) being able to fight in close combat...

let me know how you fare against daemons

Great Reports ! Cant wait to see the MEQ ones. Thinking about starting DE as my second army(the models are just too irresistible) and there are lots of marine armies where i play. Do you think the huskblade is worth it?

wow.
Those Incubi and the Archon kicked ass in the second game.

Nice reports! What tool did you use to make the maps or the battle?

Shenra wrote:let me know how you fare against daemons

There is actually a single Demons player in my area. I will try my best to get a game in with him!

Daemon Eater wrote:Do you think the huskblade is worth it?

The Huskblade is turning out to be worth it, yes. Strength 3 versus toughness 4 kinda sucks, though. I may be contradicting myself here, but the HUskblade is both worth it and not. It is highly situational, let us put it that way.

revackey wrote:Nice reports! What tool did you use to make the maps or the battle?

Vassal.

New Battle Report is up.

http://awesomesaucestudio.blogspot.com/2010/10/dark-eldar-versus-orks-game-3-of-45.html

The 3rd report with several new units was really nice.
I'm surprised to see that DE can manage to take down Orks in cc.

BuFFo wrote:

revackey wrote:Nice reports! What tool did you use to make the maps or the battle?

Vassal.

calypso2ts wrote:

BuFFo wrote:

revackey wrote:Nice reports! What tool did you use to make the maps or the battle?

Vassal.

Is there a place you could recommend to look for a copy of this, I have searched in the past and been unable to find it.

Well, once I downloaded Vassal and got a virus wrecking havoc.

Great reports, thanks for writing them up. It will be interesting to see the new builds for Dark Eldar, keep trying different things... the variety of your lists and trying out new things is great.

Thanks Buffo, I feel rather silly because the 'first link' indicated I had already visited that site and managed to not find the actual download...*open palm, insert face*

I appreciate you taking the time and effort to write all of these battle reports. Keep up the good work!

This is a great public service thread. Your reports are concise and entertaining and that is rare. Thanks.

Good reports man. Can't wait to see some vs Marines or craftworld eldar!

I don't want to mega multi-quote, but thank you all for your kind words. Ido appreciate it. People like you drive me to make my reports as clear and fun as possible.

I am sorry that I took an 'illegal' list in my third game. I felt bad after the fact. I want to make sure I am doing the best I can for you guys, and doing something as stupid as taking 2 Liquefier Guns on 9 Wracks is a pretty scrub thing to do.

I will look over my lists multiple times from now on before playing my games.

Dok wrote:Good reports man. Can't wait to see some vs Marines or craftworld eldar!

I have three Marine games waiting to be made into battle reports. I just need to get the army lists from my opponent.

Great reports man! Glad to see a Haemonculi list that can hold its own!

Great 3 games so far. Very informative and also entertaining. Great use of vassal to create the maps. I take it you actually played on vassal, no?

There seems to be an error in 2 of the games. Not sure if they would've affected the outcome.

In Game 2 (vs Tau), during Tau Turn 3, it appears the Tau player moved one of his devilfishes more than 12" (unless the map is not to scale) to reach the middle tower/objective. Devilfishes, though they are skimmers, are not fast so cannot move more than 12".

In Game 3 (vs Orks), his unit of fleeing orks and Big Mek should've regrouped when Ghazzy did his Waaagh!, as they become fearless and therefore auto-rallies.

Ghaz's Waaagh cannot regroup broken units. non-falling back units become fearless. pg. 58 of the Ork codex.

Sigmatron wrote:Ghaz's Waaagh cannot regroup broken units. non-falling back units become fearless. pg. 58 of the Ork codex.

Thanks for pointing that out for me. I was not aware of that.

Cross off mistake#2, as that wasn't a mistake.

In your second game against the Tau, you cannot have landed your Raider on the upper floor of the ruins in the center. There is a specific list of what units can move to the upper floors of ruins and skimmers are not included.

The only time a skimmer can land on top of a building is when it is classed as an impassable building.

Am paying close attention. All DE Battle reports will help when it comes to me building my new force. So thanks.

jy2 wrote:Great 3 games so far. Very informative and also entertaining. Great use of vassal to create the maps. I take it you actually played on vassal, no?

All games are playing at my local gaming store. I will make sure to point this out at the start of each of my battle reports. Thank you for the 'suggestion'

In Game 2 (vs Tau), during Tau Turn 3, it appears the Tau player moved one of his devilfishes more than 12" (unless the map is not to scale) to reach the middle tower/objective. Devilfishes, though they are skimmers, are not fast so cannot move more than 12".

The maps are not to scale. It takes me 2 hours to make one of these things without using the little ruler! I will also make sure that reader understand the maps are not to scale at the start of each battle report. Thanks for this other 'suggestion'!

Brother Ramses wrote:In your second game against the Tau, you cannot have landed your Raider on the upper floor of the ruins in the center. There is a specific list of what units can move to the upper floors of ruins and skimmers are not included.

I think you missed this disclaimer in the battle report;

"Note - The centerpiece tower counts as both a ruin, on the top floor, and a building. There is a single access point. So to get to the top floor, you either have to 'fly' up there, or enter through the only door on the ground level, which is facing the Tau player."

This terrain piece is both a building and a ruin, but the Ruin is on the top floor of the building, so in all actuality, the ruin is only a single level.

Hope that helps!

I really liked the reports - vassel does make the report better so thank you for your time and patience with the pics!!!

Question (because this happened to me too):

When playing with the Grotesques and the 2 Haemys - the pain tokens make them fearless however, when the Grotesques died out, did they die with their pain token or did they pass on the pain token to the ancients?

How did you play it?

The unit has the pain token, that means the Haemy's still have the pain tokens because they were joined to the unit.

Pain tokens are pooled by a unit as a whole.

If an IC with a pain token joins a unit without a pain token, the entire unit is considered to have the pain token. If the IC then leaves the unit, then either the unit keeps the token, or the IC takes it with them.

If the joined IC & unit have two pain tokens when the IC leaves, then the tokens have to be divided as evenly as possible.

Now, if the IC & unit are together, they are considered a single unit until such time as the IC detaches from the unit. As such, if a unit with a joined IC is destroyed down to just the IC, then that IC would keep any and all pain tokens.

On a related note, you could join an IC with no pain tokens to a unit of Grotesques who have one pain token, then have the IC later leave the Grotesques and take their pain token with him.

I updated my third battle report....

Not only did I screw my opponent over by fielding an illegal Wrack unit, I also screwed myself over!

1) I did not notice that Wracks have 2 attacks 'base' because I did not notice they carry two poison blades.

2) I have never used poison before in CC, so I had no idea you reroll poison wound rolls under certain circumstances!

So now I feel better about that game. Both players got screwed equally

Kwi wrote:I really liked the reports - vassel does make the report better so thank you for your time and patience with the pics!!

I try my best to make the battle reports make sense visually and textually. I am glad you enjoy them!

Thank you for the info on the unit having the 3 tokens - easy to understand it that way.

My friend that I was playing thought I could "lose" a token on purpose as to not make them "fearless" whenever I wanted or to suit my purposes but that didn't seem fair really.

Consider me a fan of the reports!

Cheers.

My god.... My grammar and spelling in my third report is horrible! I did not notice until I read through it 'outside' the editing function I normally read it in for my blog.

I'll make sure to proof read my future reports and clean up as many errors as I can.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Game 4 is up! How will the Ultramarines fair against my updated Heamonculi Coven?

http://awesomesaucestudio.blogspot.com/2010/10/dark-eldar-versus-ultramarines-game-4.html

Great Game! However in game 4 when the rhino pivoted and the marines got out, they would not have been able to assault. What do you think about taking Urien for the +1 str to Grotesques?

Thanks for the reports.
I have no had a chance to look at a DE codex yet and Wont until my pre order comes in. So your reports are exciting and giving me sneak previews of what units I can have.


Only problem I have is people keep telling me my Old DE count as proxies not actual DE models and that I will have to replace them.

But I want to see a match against Tyranids! I hear DE do well against them and I want to see if your opponent can pull a win off without you going light on him.

Sigmatron wrote:What do you think about taking Urien for the +1 str to Grotesques?

I am going to give it a whirl, but, they still have to avoid Walkers with AV12+. It could take ages to destroy one in combat even with strength 6.

syanticraven wrote:Only problem I have is people keep telling me my Old DE count as proxies not actual DE models and that I will have to replace them.

You can use whatever DE models you want. You don't have to replace your models if you don't want to.

But I want to see a match against Tyranids! I hear DE do well against them and I want to see if your opponent can pull a win off without you going light on him.

I have a match versus Tyranids coming soon 2500 point 'Ard Boyz slug fest to the death as a matter of fact!

Then that good sir I look forward too!

Great Report and Thread!

The mass access to "destructor" (liquifiers) is insane! I love all the options that DE have now. Now they are viable against hordes and Elite armies!

Interesting battle. You would have been in trouble if the game went on, but on the other hand your opponent cheated you (Command Squads can't assault after firing plasguns, which are Rapid Fire weapons), so I suppose fate saw that and decided you deserved recompense. I'm not sold on the list, to be honest-- I think the Ironclad demonstrated why 10 Grotesques is probably not the best unit of all time. I would consider cutting that unit down and maybe picking up a Ravager or two if possible-- your anti-tank seems very, very limited for the points value.

These battle reports are awesome. Looking forward to more. However to me right now it seems as though these new dark eldar rules are a little overpowered, as they have a strength in every aspect of the game, and absolutely no weaknesses. Does anybody else feel this way?

Game 5 is up!

1500 Cirque de Commorragh versus Ultramarines - Game 5

rivers64 wrote:These battle reports are awesome. Looking forward to more. However to me right now it seems as though these new dark eldar rules are a little overpowered, as they have a strength in every aspect of the game, and absolutely no weaknesses. Does anybody else feel this way?

Fire a bolter at a Raider, and see what our Weakness is

Well that was very interesting list. Was interesting to see the Beastmasters at work, not a fan of that little anti-tank but you played it very well.

Sigmatron wrote:Well that was very interesting list. Was interesting to see the Beastmasters at work, not a fan of that little anti-tank but you played it very well.

There is plenty of anti tank. It is just in the form of ripping off tank treads with the unit's bare hands! Part of the reason why my opponent kept his Rhinos as far away from my Beasts as possible!

I've been playing Dark Lance heavy lists for 12 years. For me, it is about time to change that pace for a while, ya know?

Yea I know. I generally deem anti-tank as things that can drop AV 14 and I don't know the Beasts stats. They are kind of appealing after seeing them used.

Sigmatron wrote:Yea I know. I generally deem anti-tank as things that can drop AV 14 and I don't know the Beasts stats. They are kind of appealing after seeing them used.

The Beasts can't touch AV 14. So going less anti-Mech than those 4 Warrior squads is going to be an issue for me.

Awesome battles. Just wondering if you were ever planning on trying out the webway portal. It looks interesting to play with different strategies for it.

I believe he said he was going to try it out. Just hasn't gotten there yet.

Great reports on the marines. What are your views on the Wych squads? Are they worth it or not?

rivers64 wrote:Awesome battles. Just wondering if you were ever planning on trying out the webway portal. It looks interesting to play with different strategies for it.

Yes sir, I will be making a few lists with Web Way Portals in the near future. I play roughly 2 - 4 games a week, so it won't be too soon. Especially since it takes me anywhere from 3 - 5 hours to create an online battle report.

Daemon Eater wrote:Great reports on the marines. What are your views on the Wych squads? Are they worth it or not?

Why don't you check them out in action?

1000 Wych Cult versus Space Wolves - Game 6

I love the idea behind your army in Game 5

LOL well that report told me the answer I needed. Great game that poor SW player didnt know what he was facing.

I have definitely enjoyed reading these reports Buffo. I am curious what makes the 'Defensive Grenades' the Wych's have different from standard defensive grenades. I may be incorrect, but I was under the impression units still received a counter attack bonus for defensive grenades being present (I run some Daemonettes and had an opponent pull this on me pg 4 SW FAQ on Ragnar).

I have not seen the codex, so it might be some peculiarity of wording I am unaware of.

Nice experiment! There will be some really interesting data coming out of this.

calypso2ts wrote:I have definitely enjoyed reading these reports Buffo. I am curious what makes the 'Defensive Grenades' the Wych's have different from standard defensive grenades. I may be incorrect, but I was under the impression units still received a counter attack bonus for defensive grenades being present (I run some Daemonettes and had an opponent pull this on me pg 4 SW FAQ on Ragnar).

I have not seen the codex, so it might be some peculiarity of wording I am unaware of.

Well, first off, I fully understand what forum this is and who the people that run it are. I will make this clear just this once, and only once, because I am not going to devolve this thread into a pointless debate.

At our store, most players only use the Erratas that GW publishes. We take the FAQ section with a grain of salt as they are just house rules no matter WHO publishes them. Defensive Grenades work against Counter Attacking units where we play. Unless GW publishes an ERRATA reversing the rules, we keep things 100% official whenever possible. If a player wants to house rule something, we do it before the game. Case in point, if the Space Wolf player wanted to have Counter Attack not be affected by Defensive Grenades, he could have told me before the game, and I would be 100% fine with it! Would this particular game have been any different? No, not really. He would have got maybe an extra kill point, but since the Wyches all strike before the pups, the extra attacks wouldn't have mattered anyway.

I am not trying to sound insulting, or condescending, or anything like that, but I've been on 40k forums long enough to know what kind of 'pile' I may be stepping in here, so please respect that this is how our games are played, and lets move on, thank you

As for your question, Phantasm Grenade Launchers just give units Defensive Grenades. There is nothing 'special' about them!

(I know people will attempt to continue this discussion in here, but I will not respond to any posts on this subject unless it has an relevance to the Battle Report itself. I am just trying to be as gentlemanly and respectful as possible!)

Don't worry about it bro. No one here cares if you don't use the INAT FAQ. Yak has been abundantly clear that it is simply a resource for people to use or not, nothing more.

Looking forward to more reports though.

Reecius wrote:Don't worry about it bro. No one here cares if you don't use the INAT FAQ. Yak has been abundantly clear that it is simply a resource for people to use or not, nothing more.

Looking forward to more reports though.

lol, I wasn't talking about the INAT faq specifically. I was talking about ALL faqs.

Dude, these battle reports are amazing. Just in terms of Dark Eldar in general, just from what I've seen so far they appear to actually be slightly overpowered as I see no way for them to have lost any of the battles they've played so far. Does anybody feel the same, or is this just my imagination playing tricks on me?

Also, looking forward to seeing you use that Webway portal.

Thanks for letting me know Buffo, that wasnt an attempt at rules gotcha or anything, I just wasnt sure if Wyches had something special about bonus attacks (like the old Wych weapons thing) or if it was due to defensive grenades.

I played it that way until the SW FAQ came out and my opponents expressed dismay over it. Since I play a lot of different people I find it easier just to go with those FAQ since most people in the area tend to follow them. Edit: but it is great that you have a solid group that has resolved it.

Hey BuFFo, great battle reports. I've been checking back daily to see if you've updated your blog. Keep up the good work!

rivers64 wrote:Dude, these battle reports are amazing. Just in terms of Dark Eldar in general, just from what I've seen so far they appear to actually be slightly overpowered as I see no way for them to have lost any of the battles they've played so far. Does anybody feel the same, or is this just my imagination playing tricks on me?

Dark Eldar have always been powerful. Shame most people never got a taste of them.

Also, looking forward to seeing you use that Webway portal.

So many people are asking for this.

My next two games will be using the Web Way Portals then!

Great Wych game! How do Wyches start with a pain token?

Sigmatron wrote:Great Wych game! How do Wyches start with a pain token?

You can take a Heamonculi and attach him to the Wych squad during deployment. On turn one you then spit the unit up, and the Wyches keep the Pain Token.

ah yes, thought you meant they could get it on their own!

@buffo
Ah, got yeah. Yeah man, play how you want, no one should get upset as long as you are clear on your local rules interpretations.

@Rivers64
I wouldn't jump the gun. People need to get acclimated to the new book. Like Buffo said, DE have always been a menace on the tournament scene. People just aren't used to seeing them or playing them. But a good DE army was savage in the last book.

I think they look like a nice, competitive army, but I am not thinking they will topple the king (Missile Wolves) just yet. Time will tell though, but my initial assessment from this and other data is that we have a flexible, fun new book that can play with the big boys. That sounds great to me.

Reecius wrote:@buffo
Ah, got yeah. Yeah man, play how you want, no one should get upset as long as you are clear on your local rules interpretations.

Well, logically, no one should get upset with how I and my group plays because we play by strict RAW whenever possible.

@Rivers64
I wouldn't jump the gun. People need to get acclimated to the new book. Like Buffo said, DE have always been a menace on the tournament scene. People just aren't used to seeing them or playing them. But a good DE army was savage in the last book.

I think they look like a nice, competitive army, but I am not thinking they will topple the king (Missile Wolves) just yet. Time will tell though, but my initial assessment from this and other data is that we have a flexible, fun new book that can play with the big boys. That sounds great to me.

Last two 'Ard boyz, I only suffered two losses. The first one was in the semis against another pro Dark Eldar, in which I trew the game because I knew it would have been a tie. The second was to this years 'Ard Boyz champion in the semis because I messed up on my deployment, and he beat me by a single kill point. Funny story, the Dark Eldar player from the year before and the Chaos winner from this year are good friends in real life, so I almost beat a 9 oblit army run by a person who plays DE on the regular.

I have no problem bending over Missile Wolves at all. My own battle report shows how a Wych Cult can table a Space Wolf player in 4 turns. My only real 'tournament' opponents come in the form of Tau. Always Tau. My most hated enemy on the Battlefield!

Also keep in mind that people are just beginning to experiment with the new codex so their full potential might not even be unlocked yet. I'd very much enjoy seeing you play an experienced eldar mech army though and seeing the results. I think that the way they are now dark eldar will either need to be downgraded, or other armies will need to be upgraded to be able to competitively deal with them.

Nah, DE don't scare most of my army builds for my Orks, Nids, Daemons, or Wolves. But then my DE I'm building don't fear any other army either so I don't really know what that says

Oh Oh Oh, I remember now! Their Balanced!

Hulksmash wrote:Nah, DE don't scare most of my army builds for my Orks, Nids, Daemons, or Wolves. But then my DE I'm building don't fear any other army either so I don't really know what that says

Oh Oh Oh, I remember now! Their Balanced!

Hahahahahah!!!!!

I know exactly what you mean. I play IG and DE as my main armies. When I play either army, I don't fear my other army!

Booo to balanced codices!

@Buffo

If I recall correctly didn't the wolf player not know what a lot of your stuff did and it was his first time playing DE? I seem to remember that his list wasn't too hot, either.

I'm not saying you couldn't beat him again, just that is seemed their were a lot of mitigating factors.

DE are a tough game for MEQ's but I have not seen anything that really scares my Wolves, although since I have not played the new book, that may not mean much! haha.

Reecius wrote:If I recall correctly didn't the wolf player not know what a lot of your stuff did and it was his first time playing DE? I seem to remember that his list wasn't too hot, either.

He is experienced enough to have simply asked, or look at my list. He didn't care to do either. At my store, everyone has a very, um, lazy approach to the game. We just play for fun, and we barely, if ever, look at lists or ask about armies.

So he shot himself in the foot. What do you want me to do about it? lol... I am not about to tell him "Hey, um, you might want to take the first turn" or "Don't move your HQ squad out so far bud"... He is used to playing second, it is his style...

I'm not saying you couldn't beat him again, just that is seemed their were a lot of mitigating factors.

There are ALWAYS mitigating factors.... Being that we were both happy with our lists, I don't see a problem here. Unless you are implying "He could have power gamed/WAAC'd more", well, so could have I. See what I mean? Neither of us knew what lists the other person was bringing to the table, so what we had was just 1) either for fun or 2) just our take-all-comers list.

Wait to you see what a WAAC DE army can do in my next battle Report I had to have one of these, and I got it out of my system, for now...

DE are a tough game for MEQ's but I have not seen anything that really scares my Wolves, although since I have not played the new book, that may not mean much! haha.

Is there someone in your area you can schedule a game or two with and mess with the "new" Dark Eldar?

*deleted* NVM, someone already pointed out the Defensive grenade thing already. As a wolf player, I would of defiantly called you on it. And to to say so *before* the game begins is a little rich. I mean, how are you supposed to know everything about an army's capabilities unless they are used against you while in the middle of the game*especially* with a new codex that is not even out yet! There would be no way the SW player would know you would have Defensive grenades to begin with. I think every area playing their own way is perfectly fine and I applaud that, we do that here as well, but it is a general rule of thumb that if it is a GW FAQ then the *default* is to go by those unless it is worked out before game not to do so. But, as you say, your store gamers don't use the FAQs (only the erratas, doesn't make sense to me as the RB is not all inclusive with every scenario, hence the FAQs).

Other than that, I've been playing DE for a long time (6+ years) and I have to say: THANK YOU!! These battle reports with all these different builds are awesome and not only a joy to read but gives the community a good look at the units in action and their potential. I really like the last one, because so much bad stuff has been said of the new wyches, and I have to say they look fine to me.

BuFFo wrote:

Smitty0305 wrote:You might as well play tau the way ur using de.

lol, no thanks... I like 1) the ability to hit my targets when shooting and 2) being able to fight in close combat...

amen... i mean.... umm... FOR COMMORAGHHHH!!!

padixon wrote: But, as you say, your store gamers don't use the FAQs (only the erratas, doesn't make sense to me as the RB is not all inclusive with every scenario, hence the FAQs).

I am not sure what you mean by this... I don't know what an RB is. All I know is that FAQs are not official changes to the rules in any form or fashion. FAQs, whether on the GW site or not, are always optional house rules you and your opponent agree to play with. Erratas are changes you MUST play with to keep the game consistent with the designer's intent.

If I am talking about something you weren't addressing, then I am sorry.

Other than that, I've been playing DE for a long time (6+ years) and I have to say: THANK YOU!! These battle reports with all these different builds are awesome and not only a joy to read but gives the community a good look at the units in action and their potential. I really like the last one, because so much bad stuff has been said of the new wyches, and I have to say they look fine to me.

Wyches seem to be working fine for me

Nice battle report giving some insight how to play the new Dark Eldar.
I'm toying with a Haemonculi Coven army as it seems to have the potential to deal with any opponent.

BuFFo: Cronos seem not to be the best HS choice in such an army.
What HS would you prefer?

FFFF

update plox i needs my dark eldar fix

Note; thats a joke your a really good battle reporter

Made a list based on what you said

Haemonculi (65 pts) (X6 @ 390 pts)
(x1) Venom Blade (2+), Splinter Pistol, Liguifier Gun.

Wracks (100 pts) (X6 @ 600 pts)
(x8) Two Poisoned Weapons(4+).
(x1) Poisoned Weapon (4+), Liquifier Gun.

Raider (85 pts) (x6 @ 510 pts)
Dark Lance, Flickerfield, Night Shields, Torment Grenade Launchers.

1500/1500 (66 models, 6 Raiders)

Any plans to go up against IG in the near future. I would love to see how the DE codex does against the current mech vet power build, or the power blob lists.

Nice work so far. I'm looking forward to all 45 games.

New Battle Report is up!

2500 Kabal versus Tyranids - Game 7

That Nid batrep was just painful to read - like shooting fish in a barrel. Your units were wiping out entire bug units in every volley. Uggg.

Ummmm....feel no pain? Tervigons? Did he not think to bring these things?

3 Hive guard? Not nine, or six? WITH feel no pain?

It doesn't seem like that was a very competitive nid list.

Spellbound wrote:Ummmm....feel no pain? Tervigons? Did he not think to bring these things?

Tervigon is a unit that was hyped when the book came out, but overall is just mediocre. At best, it poops out crappy units to hold objectives. I actually advanced to the semi finals of this year's 'Ard Boyz because I got an extra kill point from a termigaunt unit made from a Tervigon.

Anyway, everyone's local meta is different, and Tervigons are looked down on around here. When the book first came out, Nid players used Tervigons, but quickly realized how much of 'nothing' they do, and how craptastic they are in kill point missions.

3 Hive guard? Not nine, or six? WITH feel no pain?

He owns 3 Hive Guard, so he used 3 Hive Guard. Plus, if he had 9 of them, I would have just killed 9 of them on turn one regardless. That is a high priority unit, and I will do everything in my power to kill them.

Hm. It just seems to me, that if he put hive guard behind tervigons, to even get within striking distance of the hive guard puts you in striking distance of spawned termagaunts and lots of other nastiness.

Good call lining the board edge with warriors though. It's easy to stop outflanking if you're prepared for it.

Agreed - the Bug list was sub-optimal and the DE was a tuned list. Results speak for themselves.

Great batreps nice read and good visuals. Look forward to more.

BuFFo wrote:
Tervigon is a unit that was hyped when the book came out, but overall is just mediocre. At best, it poops out crappy units to hold objectives.

Really, really?
What on earth do you base that on given it's a ~195point scoring, FNP giving, relentless giving, furious charge giving, 4+wounding giving , Monstorous creatur - that only makes unit when you want it to?
Beyond a guy either being unlucky or spawning a unit when he shouldn't have, or putting that unit in front not behind the tervigon?
What you got huh? That makes them "just mediocre."

kaiservonhugal wrote:Agreed - the Bug list was sub-optimal and the DE was a tuned list. Results speak for themselves.

Great batreps nice read and good visuals. Look forward to more.

Yeah, it seems it was a tuned DE list and a sub-optimal Nids army.
Other than that, I was a great battle report, as always.

Wonder how DE cope with the late blood angel codex? I had a game with my mates with a combo eldar/dark eldar army, but i was pretty much minced. Death company < Incubi :S

Poor bugs, the genes didnt get to do anything!

Love these very much, good insight

How about killing a Trygon prime? This beast can get pretty nasty, lots of shots and lots of wounds.

Great report!

wuestenfux wrote:How about killing a Trygon prime? This beast can get pretty nasty, lots of shots and lots of wounds.

force him test like 50+ saves?

The DE Poison weaponry seems absolutely brutal against Tyranids. You really dismantled him and his list was a fairly competitive mix as well. Thanks for the interesting report.

Spellbound wrote:Ummmm....feel no pain? Tervigons? Did he not think to bring these things?

3 Hive guard? Not nine, or six? WITH feel no pain?

It doesn't seem like that was a very competitive nid list.

I can agree about the Hive Guard; they're very effective, but should be target number one for a DE player.

As far as any of the TMC's, they're pretty much a turn 1 or 2 death against DE right now. Between lots of S8 AP2 shots and piles of poison, Tervigons are actually a liability against DE.

Saldiven wrote:

Spellbound wrote:Ummmm....feel no pain? Tervigons? Did he not think to bring these things?

3 Hive guard? Not nine, or six? WITH feel no pain?

It doesn't seem like that was a very competitive nid list.

I can agree about the Hive Guard; they're very effective, but should be target number one for a DE player.

As far as any of the TMC's, they're pretty much a turn 1 or 2 death against DE right now. Between lots of S8 AP2 shots and piles of poison, Tervigons are actually a liability against DE.

which is why you take 6 or 9 of them. Also, if he has 4+ mc's on table they're either not killing all of the mcs turn 1-2 or they're not killing all the hive guard. He didnt have 4 MC's though and it was a 2500 pt game

@Buffo-Ive liked all of your battle reps except for the tyranid one. Honestly i feel like the nid player may not be grasping his army or 5th ed tactics entirely. If you look at your DE list, you KNOW its alpha strike, from the number of AT weapons and long range shots to the 2 characters which give you a huge edge to going first. The common tactic would not be deploy but rather to reserve everything, making the DE play the range game and denying you the satisfaction of killing large parts of his army before they even have the chance to do anything. Genestealers should outflank, trygons should DS, and he should put everything else on the table defensively in order to deny you sustained fire power. That and reserving against an overpoweringly shooty army effectively cuts the number of viable turns of shooting in half for you, meaning you have far less time to devastate him off the table. You miss turn 1 and 2 by going first, and hopefully for him it ends turn 5 meaning youd only have 3 turns to net the kill points, and in that time hopefully his units like the trygon and stealers would pick off units too close to the table edges or with shooting in the trygons case.

I know you disclaimer that you dont know why your opponents do what they do because you may not know their codex, and also that hindsight is 20/20 and people make mistakes in-game. But there were some fundamental flaws in his strategy and it showed first turn. Hopefully he's learned from the experience.

Other than that like I said all the rest of your reports have been very informative. keep it up sir!

Superscope wrote:Wonder how DE cope with the late blood angel codex? I had a game with my mates with a combo eldar/dark eldar army, but i was pretty much minced. Death company < Incubi :S

There are a few BA players in my store. I will try to get in a game with them for ya

wuestenfux wrote:How about killing a Trygon prime? This beast can get pretty nasty, lots of shots and lots of wounds.

In the report, I killed a Trygon Prime quite easily. Which was no different than the old DE codex versus the old Nid codex with their Nidzilla. In my local meta, people stopped fielding Nidzilla lists because of my Dark Eldar. It was an auto loss for them. What I didn't kill with Dark lances I tied up in combat eternally with Wyches.

thanatos67 wrote:@Buffo-Ive liked all of your battle reps except for the tyranid one. Honestly i feel like the nid player may not be grasping his army or 5th ed tactics entirely.

He, like all my opponents, have the option to look at my list. I allow them that. After I deploy my entire army, I tell them unit by unit what everything does.

I can only go so far as to help people.

If you look at your DE list, you KNOW its alpha strike, from the number of AT weapons and long range shots to the 2 characters which give you a huge edge to going first. The common tactic would not be deploy but rather to reserve everything, making the DE play the range game and denying you the satisfaction of killing large parts of his army before they even have the chance to do anything.

You do NOT want to reserve everything against Dark Eldar. People (of roughly even skill) have tried this against me in the past, and it is a certain death sentence. The only army that can do this successfully is Eldar with their invincible tanks, and even then, it is iffy.

Genestealers should outflank

Yeah, in the battle, I denied him an entire outflank with a warrior squad. Best he could have done was come in form his table edge normally, killed the warrior squad, and that is it. I deny flanks when I can. He has played me before where, by the end of turn 2, I had the entire board edge blocked, rednering his outflanking units essentially worthless.

trygons should DS,

Which he did, and it still died.

I know you disclaimer that you dont know why your opponents do what they do because you may not know their codex

The disclaimer is there to tell readers I don't know what is going through my opponents head during the game unless they tell me. So I cannot account for their actions if their actions seem odd.

The trygon is going to die, you pretty much buy the thing with the notion that it'll be getting itself killed in order to provide distraction. Best hope for it is to take down a raider (preferably vect, and to block los from your slogging warriors in order to make them move around or give cover.

I dont see reserving against DE a certain death. I've played against dark eldar a fair number of games (good dark eldar too, like 20 lance raider spam in ardboyz finals 08') and almost never is it worse to reserve an army that you know will get shot to pieces in two turns than allow your army to get alpha striked by 20+ lance weapons. Hide in a corner and make you move toward him, and hopefully kill some stuff along the way in order to get some KP's. He cant fight that list toe to toe, so he needs to be much, much more conservative. And by that I mean dont put all your stuff out in the open for it to get maimed turn 1. By doing that he forfeited the game.

In order for you to line a short bord edge by turn 2 you either need to roll 6's twice to run or have 2 squads doing it, one in a raider. Was either of these the case? and if your doing that your not shooting, so its a win for him as well. I mean its possible, just hard and counter productive as you could just move to the middle of the board.

These reports do a great job highlighting the strengths of the new DE codex. Hopefully those of us on the craftworlds will still be able to keep pace with them.

nope convert now or perish

buffo what are your thoughts on the duke? him+trueborn in a raider could be filthy good

BuFFo wrote:

Reecius wrote:If I recall correctly didn't the wolf player not know what a lot of your stuff did and it was his first time playing DE? I seem to remember that his list wasn't too hot, either.

He is experienced enough to have simply asked, or look at my list. He didn't care to do either. At my store, everyone has a very, um, lazy approach to the game. We just play for fun, and we barely, if ever, look at lists or ask about armies.

So he shot himself in the foot. What do you want me to do about it? lol... I am not about to tell him "Hey, um, you might want to take the first turn" or "Don't move your HQ squad out so far bud"... He is used to playing second, it is his style...

I'm not saying you couldn't beat him again, just that is seemed their were a lot of mitigating factors.

There are ALWAYS mitigating factors.... Being that we were both happy with our lists, I don't see a problem here. Unless you are implying "He could have power gamed/WAAC'd more", well, so could have I. See what I mean? Neither of us knew what lists the other person was bringing to the table, so what we had was just 1) either for fun or 2) just our take-all-comers list.

Wait to you see what a WAAC DE army can do in my next battle Report I had to have one of these, and I got it out of my system, for now...

DE are a tough game for MEQ's but I have not seen anything that really scares my Wolves, although since I have not played the new book, that may not mean much! haha.

Is there someone in your area you can schedule a game or two with and mess with the "new" Dark Eldar?

All good points. And don't take me wrong, I am no way trying to undercut your victories, a win is a win. I was just tossing in my two cents. I would love to get a game in against the new DE but I moved recently and have not been able to get a game in at all, but I hope to change that soon.

That last report vs. bugs goes a long way to confirming my fears about that match up. Poison weapons are bugs' nightmare. That plus lots of high strength, low ap and good HtH means that bugs will not like DE at all, at least not the current tournament lists as they are gong to be prime targets for DE weaponry.

And again, thanks for the cool and informative reports.

thanatos67 wrote:nope convert now or perish

buffo what are your thoughts on the duke? him+trueborn in a raider could be filthy good

I will try the Duke in a future list. He seems best in a Wych based army with Trueborn support. He gives the Wyches a chance for better drugs, plus, he makes the Trueborn's Splinter Cannons wound on 3's.

I have not used him yet, so I have no opinion on him at the moment, sorry!

Reecius wrote:All good points. And don't take me wrong, I am no way trying to undercut your victories, a win is a win. I was just tossing in my two cents. I would love to get a game in against the new DE but I moved recently and have not been able to get a game in at all, but I hope to change that soon.

That last report vs. bugs goes a long way to confirming my fears about that match up. Poison weapons are bugs' nightmare. That plus lots of high strength, low ap and good HtH means that bugs will not like DE at all, at least not the current tournament lists as they are gong to be prime targets for DE weaponry.

And again, thanks for the cool and informative reports.

I must apologize. I am new to Dakka, and you know what, so far I have only come across respectful posters. I am not used to this, as I used to post on Warsewer and 40KrapOnline, and those places are cesspools of abusive moderation and flamers left and right. Besides Dakka, the only other place I 'breath' my 40k air is on Bell of Lost Souls. I am VERY picky about my 40k websites, as I try to surround myself with like minded people if I can help it.

I may have taken your responses to heart in such a way I should not have, and if I have disrespected you in anyway, I am very sorry!

If you think my Tyranid opponent didn't do so well, wait to you see our follow up game where he faced my 2500 point Hamonculi Coven... If you are a Nid player, you will cringe...

No worries man, it is so easy to misconstrue what someone says on the internet anyway.

Daemons are really going to get the shaft. They pay a premium for their invul saves and poison weapons are going to wreck them through volume of wounds.

I expected the massacre of the nids from your DE. While your list is pretty 'Ard Boyz worthy, his was not. He could use some help online to make a more competitive list. A finely-tuned Nids list is tough cookie to crack and will give your DE a run for their money, even with their poisoned guns. Also, don't take tervigons too lightly. They are one of the cornerstones of a competitive nid army, not because of what they can do individually, but because of how they can buff up the army on the whole. They are the key to Tyranid synergy.

I just have to ask..... in your nid BR your list said it had the Baron but I didnt see him on the tabletop or in the report?.......

Red Corsair wrote:I just have to ask..... in your nid BR your list said it had the Baron but I didnt see him on the tabletop or in the report?.......

He ran off the board on Turn 3 (along with some warriors) after getting assaulted by tyranids and failing morale.

Yeah, he got scared and done ran off the board

Not to derail the thread, but I have to disagree with your take on Tervigons. Put Hive Guard in front of them to give them a cover save and give them Feel No Pain and they are actually extremely durable. Termagants are also quite deadly if you have the Tervigon in range to give them furious charge, poison attack and counter attack. If you have a Tyrant nearby to give them preferred enemy as well, a 50 point termagant squad will put 11.25 wounds on a T4 or less squad on the charge. They even get bolt pistols! Buffed up termagants can handle most Wrack and Warrior units, but Wyches give them real problems. Best solution is to bait the Wyches with a sacrificial gant squad and then either shoot them to death or take them out with a Tyrant squad. Wyches don't like going last in a combat and not being able to take their feel no pain save.

I've played a game aganst a fairly tooled DE list with Tyranids (2 X hive tyrant w/ 2 X tyrant guard and 2 X devourers, 3 X troop tervigons and termagants, 9 X hive guard, 3 X raveners) and it was not fun. Luckily the DE player chose to engage me in CC on turn 3, and I was able to scrape a win. If he had just ran away while shooting, I would have lost horribly. Night shields are brutal against hive guard and devourer tyrants, the ravagers, raiders and venoms can stay out of range almost all game if they want to.

I think that Tyrannofexes are almost a must take if you don't want to auto lose to DE; I'm going to find room for 2 of them with rupture cannons in my list, and I'm going to give my Tyrants Heavy Venom Cannons. You gotta be able to stop the DE from running away from you all game, and you need long range weapons to do that. Nids versus DE is a tough fight, but it is by no means a foregone conclusion.

You can disagree with me on whatever you like. If Tervigons work for you, then great, but I already explained that I have no problems killing tervigon spam lists, and the Tyranid players in my local meta have stopped taking them because for them, Tervigons are worthless.

Everyone uses the same units differently, and that is what makes this game great! A unit one person cannot fathom using, another player may use expertly.

More power to you brother!

Well, what we are asking is "Why do you find tervigons to be average?" and you're replying with

"I have no problems killing tervigon spam lists, and the Tyranid players in my local meta have stopped taking them because for them, Tervigons are worthless."

Which is the eqivilent of blowing smoke up our bottoms.
So, I ask you again, in response to

ChrisCP wrote:

BuFFo wrote:
Tervigon is a unit that was hyped when the book came out, but overall is just mediocre. At best, it poops out crappy units to hold objectives.

Really, really?
What on earth do you base that on given it's a ~195point scoring, FNP giving, relentless giving, furious charge giving, 4+wounding giving , Monstorous creatur - that only makes unit when you want it to?
What you got huh? That makes them "just mediocre."

I agree too that Tervies are more than just mediocre. That being said, let's not derail the thread! Very much enjoying the OP's batreps too, I think the key thing here is he's playing 45 games with whatever shows up at the LGS, its not really meant to be a scientific inquiry, rather more a sharing of personal experiences.

rabidaskal wrote:I agree too that Tervies are more than just mediocre. That being said, let's not derail the thread! Very much enjoying the OP's batreps too, I think the key thing here is he's playing 45 games with whatever shows up at the LGS, its not really meant to be a scientific inquiry, rather more a sharing of personal experiences.

I am playing games with people who are able to make lists to counter mine if they wish. most don't, which is great because in my local meta, everyone just plays the game for fun.

Rarely do I just find a random list and play it.

I'll defend Buffo's position on the tervigon not being worth it. If you have to fight 20+ antitank weapons per game with a model that will almost never get cover and cant actually shoot back at the antitank without getting fairly close, you dont have much of a chance of surviving. And gaunts are free kp's and pain tokens for his DE shooting. I think thats why Buffo felt that reserving was a bad idea when i posted that comment, due to nid's limited ranged capabilities vs. his own.

Buffo you should post a running record of W-L-D in your sig with respect to these 45 games so we know how well dark eldar in general are fairing for you. Just a friendly suggestion. They seem to be doing great but once you get up to like 30 games it'll be interesting to see how many times you've lost vs won, then go back and look at which games were successes and which were abject failure.

thanatos67 wrote:I'll defend Buffo's position on the tervigon not being worth it.

I thank you for taking my 'side', but it is just my opinion based on the games in my local area. I am sure there are Tyranid players out there, many in this very thread probably, that use Tervigons to great success in their local meta.

Whether or not a unit is useful is always up for debate, and for every player, there is a different way of using a certain unit.

If you have to fight 20+ antitank weapons per game with a model that will almost never get cover and cant actually shoot back at the antitank without getting fairly close, you dont have much of a chance of surviving. And gaunts are free kp's and pain tokens for his DE shooting. I think thats why Buffo felt that reserving was a bad idea when i posted that comment, due to nid's limited ranged capabilities vs. his own.

From my experience, over the years of playing DE, DE is an army where you need to alpha strike turn one hard. I have played countless games where I have went second, and in those games putting anything in Reserves was a death sentence, as half my force dies in the first two turns, and everything else just dies as it comes in the game unsupported.

Dark Eldar is not an army you want to Reserve things with for the most part. I am sure people out there play opponents of lesser skill, so Reserving works for them, but when you have two roughly even skilled players, they know how to deal with DE Reserves.

Now, I am sure there are a few DE builds where going second is just fine, and that is what I am trying to find for myself through these games. I saw another poster here having success with Reserving his Voidraven Bombers every game. This is something I most definitely need to look into.

Buffo you should post a running record of W-L-D in your sig with respect to these 45 games so we know how well dark eldar in general are fairing for you. Just a friendly suggestion. They seem to be doing great but once you get up to like 30 games it'll be interesting to see how many times you've lost vs won, then go back and look at which games were successes and which were abject failure.

I will put it in my sig right now for you. Good suggestion, and thank you.

I just wanted to note that in your Wytch Cult vs. Space Wolves report you said

I have not mentioned this, but the Space Wolf player was also pissed that he could never get his bonus for Counter Charge, nor regular Charging, because of the Wyches now "new" Defensive Grenades.

He should be upset. Defensive Grenades don't work on Counter-attack, as per the Space Wolves FAQ, page 4. Likewise Counter-attack doesn't trigger Furious Charge. Defensive Grenades only work when your unit gets Assaulted, not Counter-attacked when they themselves launched the assault.

- Marty Lund

mlund wrote:I just wanted to note that in your Wytch Cult vs. Space Wolves report you said

I have not mentioned this, but the Space Wolf player was also pissed that he could never get his bonus for Counter Charge, nor regular Charging, because of the Wyches now "new" Defensive Grenades.

He should be upset. Defensive Grenades don't work on Counter-attack, as per the Space Wolves FAQ, page 4. Likewise Counter-attack doesn't trigger Furious Charge. Defensive Grenades only work when your unit gets Assaulted, not Counter-attacked when they themselves launched the assault.

- Marty Lund

That point is addressed already in the thread. His gaming group doesn't use the FAQs: http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/30/324509.page#2078433

Iamjack42 wrote:That point is addressed already in the thread. His gaming group doesn't use the FAQs: http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/30/324509.page#2078433

Ah, my apologies. I must've gotten confused with the INAT comment and whatnot and forgotten about the comment between when I last visited the threat and when someone pointed out the FAQ to me. Since I play in a different sort of environment I'll just dismiss that particular aspect of the battle report as being irrelevant to my perspective, then. I did really enjoy the bits about proper use of Shardnets, though.

- Marty Lund

When's your next game? I want MOAR!!!!!!!!

The biggest advantage that I am seeing with these and other reports is the New Dark Eldar codex seems to be made to counter the fancy hi end units people are taking. Land Raider Spam, I have a million lance options, MC eat poison. Oh Mr. Mepiston you can eat a witch squad, they can get saves, but you get wounded on a 4+ sorry power weapon. Also people are still underestimating the speed of Dark Eldar, like they did with the Blood Angels assualt armys. The nasty mech guard lists with Hyrda flak spam will do nasty things to DE as will hell hounds. I see the DE pushing people towards more well rounding of their lists. The fact that Buffo seems to more often then not pick where and when his spikey elves reach HtH is also helping him enormously. Buffo thus far is simply a better general then his oppenents seem to be in most cases.

The answer to hydra's is WWP. Sure Raiders and Ravagers can't use it but if WWP is put in the right place the Reavers can bring blasters or heat lances to bear on the hydras without fear of being shot down before delivering their payload.

They key against hydra spam is obviously speed. Flickerfield CAN help but the best thing to do is go balls to the wall and hope your Raiders get to where they are needed.

Against Hydra spam I think luck is going to be the biggest factor.

Nice reports =) I could be reading this wrong, but in "1500 Heamonculi Coven Versus Orks - Game 3" you say that his Big Mek fires his Super Doodad or something like that, which I can only interpret as a Shokk Attack Gun. He rolled a 12, which would probably make it a double 6. A double 6 with the SAG means that everything touched by the blast template is removed from play. Like I said, I could have misunderstood the report but to me it looked like you treated it as a normal shot. If it wasn't the SAG firing, then my bad =)

Fateweaver wrote:The answer to hydra's is WWP. Sure Raiders and Ravagers can't use it but if WWP is put in the right place the Reavers can bring blasters or heat lances to bear on the hydras without fear of being shot down before delivering their payload.

They key against hydra spam is obviously speed. Flickerfield CAN help but the best thing to do is go balls to the wall and hope your Raiders get to where they are needed.

Against Hydra spam I think luck is going to be the biggest factor.

I agree, against guard the trick is getting there fast and hitting hard and hoping for a good/lucky shooting phase. I don't know how often the wwp will be a factor only because reavers and venoms can basically enter the field from the board edge and deal their damage. I think I would not use reavers against guard as hydras auto targeting system eliminates their flat out save. I think void ravens are going to be the instrumental tool vs mech lists.

You seemed very excited about the Wyches getting both assault AND defensive grenades from the Phantasm Grenade Launcher. Just wondering if you overlooked the fact that Wyches get assault grenades anyway? Defensive grenades at a cost of 1 pt/model still ain't bad, though.

Great reports! Easy to read, concise, and come from a clearly, very experienced player. I've enjoyed the first ones a lot and can't wait for the rest!

Play some eldar! Great reports too.

rivers64 wrote:Play some eldar! Great reports too.

I will when I get a chance!

Reports will be up soon...

Seriously, this thread has given me the best information for the new DE codex then any other review, seeing them at different points levels and different sorts of lists just gives a broad view on how they play, thanks for writing all of these up man (or woman, I apologize if i was incorrect)

Video Battle Report is up!

2500 No CC Kabal versus Blood Angels - Game 8

Helluva Game Buffo. I really haven't really seen Vect do much anywhere.

Close Game, I really didn't know which way it was going. More please!

Nice game!

Firstly, nice battle report. The switch up from written to video was nice, gave the series a bit of variety.

Secondly, the Venom conversions. I presume the base of the model is an Eldar Vyper Jet Bike, but where did you get the back of the vehicle from? Is it from the Raider kit or something else? They look really sweet, am looking to steal your sources!

The venom is a conversion kit that has been around for some time I believe, its the front end of a viper and the hind third of the old dark eldar raider.

Gavrock wrote:Firstly, nice battle report. The switch up from written to video was nice, gave the series a bit of variety.

Secondly, the Venom conversions. I presume the base of the model is an Eldar Vyper Jet Bike, but where did you get the back of the vehicle from? Is it from the Raider kit or something else? They look really sweet, am looking to steal your sources!

I am currently in a Venom building contest... After the 29th, I will divulge everything about the Venom on here to you.

BuFFo wrote:

Gavrock wrote:Firstly, nice battle report. The switch up from written to video was nice, gave the series a bit of variety.

Secondly, the Venom conversions. I presume the base of the model is an Eldar Vyper Jet Bike, but where did you get the back of the vehicle from? Is it from the Raider kit or something else? They look really sweet, am looking to steal your sources!

I am currently in a Venom building contest... After the 29th, I will divulge everything about the Venom on here to you.

You better!

Great update!

I see a lot of people remarking how DE are giving Tyranids a hard time. What are your own thoughts on this, battle reports posted above aside?

White Glint wrote:I see a lot of people remarking how DE are giving Tyranids a hard time. What are your own thoughts on this, battle reports posted above aside?

Um, DE versus Tyranids is a hard match up for Tyranids, but not impossible. I have recorded two video battle reports yesterday, both games are Dark Eldar versus Tyranids, and once I get them posted up, you may like the results...

All in all, the Dark Eldar have tons of poison weaponry, and the Tyranids are all bio units. Just isn't a good match up for the Tyranids!

With regards to tyranids against DE, nids now more than ever need Tervigons with Catalyst (FNP) and hive guards. With them, they can remain competitive. Otherwise, I agree that they will have a hard time against the new DE.

jy2 wrote:With regards to tyranids against DE, nids now more than ever need Tervigons with Catalyst (FNP) and hive guards. With them, they can remain competitive. Otherwise, I agree that they will have a hard time against the new DE.

Hive Guards are a joke against Dark Eldar.... Proof will be in the video once I get it up and running

24" range guns + Night Shields = fun fun fun!!

So what models do you use for the wracks and grotesques?

BuFFo wrote:
24" range guns + Night Shields = fun fun fun!!

Do you always take NS/finding them worth the 10 points?

Sadly I agree with the DE player on this one - Reducing the impaler cannon to a puny 18" range, while firing back with disintegrators and dark lances @36 inches, tyrannofexes become the only real threat to a DE army from the tyranid point of view. And those beasts cost oooodles of points.

The best matchup I have made vs DE so far with my 'nids has been a swarmy style army, with zoeys in drop spores. and when i say best matchup, I mean the games that i have pulled a 'draw' rather than a 'loss'.

BuFFo wrote:

jy2 wrote:With regards to tyranids against DE, nids now more than ever need Tervigons with Catalyst (FNP) and hive guards. With them, they can remain competitive. Otherwise, I agree that they will have a hard time against the new DE.

Hive Guards are a joke against Dark Eldar.... Proof will be in the video once I get it up and running

24" range guns + Night Shields = fun fun fun!!

I may be a little biased, as I normally run 6-9 hive guards in my all-comer's tyranid army, but you can't dodge them forever. You can keep backing up, but those dark lances are going to do minimal damage to 12-18 hive guard wounds in cover. Mass wounds in the form of Splinter weaponry is much more effective against hive guards, but then you have to get closer (unless you're spamming splinter cannons on venoms...but then your AT will be lacking). On top of that, you've got heavy venom cannons and possibly the occasional tyrannofex to deal with as well as tervigons making the rest of the nid army that much more tougher to take out.

Honestly, and don't be offended, that Tyranid army you played against really wasn't that competitive. Play against a Nid army like mine and you'll have a much tougher fight.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

tetrisphreak wrote:Sadly I agree with the DE player on this one - Reducing the impaler cannon to a puny 18" range, while firing back with disintegrators and dark lances @36 inches,

BTW, Impaler cannons are a minimum of 24" + a possible D6" due to Onslaught.


Move 6" + shoot 24" - 6" night shields + D6" onslaught = 25"-30" range.

But onslaught makes you lose FNP right (just by virtue of the model using the psychic powers)

Somnicide wrote:But onslaught makes you lose FNP right (just by virtue of the model using the psychic powers)

Right. But if you have to use Onslaught to get the hive guards to possibly be in range, then the splinter weaponry is at most single-shot range and, in some instances, maybe even out of range, and it's only the poisoned weaponry where Catalyst is useful against. Darklite weaponry could care less. It's mainly a tradeoff and it may well be worth it. 2 hive guards with 4 S8 shots have a good chance to immobilise, wreck or explode a raider. Then there's the possibility of getting pinned or some dying due to the explosion. After they get within range, then the power the tervigon will most likely be using is FNP.

Nice reports, how did you convert the vipers?

think chariots of a non living variety. And sails from the only model(s) that I know of in 40k/Fantasy that have sails.

Another video battle report is up!

2500 Web Way Foot versus Eldar - Game 17

BuFFo wrote:

White Glint wrote:I see a lot of people remarking how DE are giving Tyranids a hard time. What are your own thoughts on this, battle reports posted above aside?

Um, DE versus Tyranids is a hard match up for Tyranids, but not impossible. I have recorded two video battle reports yesterday, both games are Dark Eldar versus Tyranids, and once I get them posted up, you may like the results...

All in all, the Dark Eldar have tons of poison weaponry, and the Tyranids are all bio units. Just isn't a good match up for the Tyranids!

Looking forward to it! So far I have really enjoyed your vid batreps

BuFFo wrote:Another video battle report is up!

2500 Web Way Foot versus Eldar - Game 17

Cool, watching now

But isnt your list illegal though? Splinter Cannons on 5 men squads is impossible.


Still, I wonder how would 10 grotesques match up!

Big fan of what you're doing Buffo.

As far as your last game, I think harlequins would be a much better delivery squad...in fact, if you're going on foot, I'd say it's the ONLY WWP delivery squad. However, I've concluded, like you have, that WWP's are somewhat useless and I'm trying out a DE foot list without one. With bikes, hellions and beastmasters, DE SHOULD be fast enough to not need one. They'll be in combat turn 2 anyway.

As far as tactics, it may be a result of your reserve rolls, but it seems you made "attack runs" with a unit at a time. His seer council in one turn basically killed over 550 odd points of reaver jetbikes. Ouch. Your Hellion squad (especially if it had stolen a pain token like I do with mine) seems like the perfect counter to a seer council. 40 shots followed by 60 CC attacks should win you the combat with a seer council. Maybe hiding for a turn (nice stealth ability from the baron) to open up that charge? What options did you see when your Hellions came onto the board?

I agree with your assessment on the bikes. Either guns or caltrops, not both. I'm also toying with the 9 strong reaver squad. Those massed flamers really, really did a number on the squads. Maybe if your jetbikes had ended their boost so about 4 of them formed a blockade of the council and the rest were moved away from those models at maximum coherency to really reduce the number of targets. Also, bubblewrapping 1 squad with the other might have made a difference and kept both from getting roasted and then assaulted to death.

Did the heat lances do anything on your taloi? I run mine with Haywire Launchers, but I don't have enough experience to make a decision quite yet.

Once again, thanks for your efforts. Look forward to your tactical insight.

Antyrael wrote:Big fan of what you're doing Buffo.

I do it for my homies.

As far as your last game, I think harlequins would be a much better delivery squad...in fact, if you're going on foot, I'd say it's the ONLY WWP delivery squad. However, I've concluded, like you have, that WWP's are somewhat useless and I'm trying out a DE foot list without one. With bikes, hellions and beastmasters, DE SHOULD be fast enough to not need one. They'll be in combat turn 2 anyway.

I am not a fan of Harlies. I like my Grotesques! Either way, the WWP is dead as a tactic for an entire army. It may have merit as a one off for a single unit, but other than that, you can't base your army around a WWP strategy.

As far as tactics, it may be a result of your reserve rolls, but it seems you made "attack runs" with a unit at a time. His seer council in one turn basically killed over 550 odd points of reaver jetbikes. Ouch.

It is hard to see, but I messed up when I did my attack runs. I could have stopped my Reavers in such a way that only one squad could have been assaulted. That was my error, and as any good Dark Eldar Archon knows, if you make one mistake, your entire strategy is going to hell quickly.

Your Hellion squad (especially if it had stolen a pain token like I do with mine) seems like the perfect counter to a seer council. 40 shots followed by 60 CC attacks should win you the combat with a seer council. Maybe hiding for a turn (nice stealth ability from the baron) to open up that charge? What options did you see when your Hellions came onto the board?

I didn't have many options. What I assaulted is what I could. I didn't get any Reavers to come on the board that same turn, so the Hellions were all alone. Big reason why WWP based armies will fail.

It didn't help that I misread the Hellions, and thought they were only Strength 4 on the charge, like how they used to be!!! I didn't know that they are Strength 4 at all times now...

God... I need to learn to read...

I agree with your assessment on the bikes. Either guns or caltrops, not both. I'm also toying with the 9 strong reaver squad. Those massed flamers really, really did a number on the squads. Maybe if your jetbikes had ended their boost so about 4 of them formed a blockade of the council and the rest were moved away from those models at maximum coherency to really reduce the number of targets. Also, bubblewrapping 1 squad with the other might have made a difference and kept both from getting roasted and then assaulted to death.

Yeah, I could have landed the reavers in a much better defensive position. I messed up big time on that one.

Did the heat lances do anything on your taloi? I run mine with Haywire Launchers, but I don't have enough experience to make a decision quite yet.

Heat Lances didn't do anything. Eldar took Wave Serpents, so Heat Lances were worthless. I am NOT a fan of Heat Lances. I like to keep my Talos cheap for CC only, if at all possible.

I really like this series of games Buffo! I have been following this since the beginning. Keep it up. Thanks for putting this together!

I've read the first of your reports, and i really like the maps, very clear and detailed, good work! I can understand you forgetting your pain tokens, it's one of those army-wide rules that you always forget. When i started out with dark elves in WHFB i was constantly forgetting the fact that all of my models had hatred.

I'll be sure to read a few more reports at some point!

New BAt Rep is up!

2500 Wych Cult versus Tyranids - Game 15

Ouch! Nice reports. Keep 'em coming.

Another great report, I thought you were going to really struggle with the nids, they brought a pretty good amount of shooting and it seemed like the Raveners and Genestealers would be brutal on your army.

My prediction is a Tyranid Victory next game when you pilot them, I think you probably know exactly how to dismantle your own Dark Eldar...

calypso2ts wrote:Another great report, I thought you were going to really struggle with the nids, they brought a pretty good amount of shooting and it seemed like the Raveners and Genestealers would be brutal on your army.

My prediction is a Tyranid Victory next game when you pilot them, I think you probably know exactly how to dismantle your own Dark Eldar...

You put too much stock into me

It'll be interesting to see if it's the general or the army.

Interesting as always

Very brutal, a lot of units on both sides got killed in 1-2 phrases of a turn

Loving the reviews, very nice to have someone with competently built lists doing actual decent test games. I have to say, the more that I read of Eldar, the more I feel they will be a difficult matchup for DE. I would be interested to see how they do against a build with Fire Prisms, since they are as big of a pain as Broadsides in all honesty.

Also, I'm curious as to whether or not you will try a largely Hellion army anytime? I personally am running a 1500 point army with 3/4 squads of 10 hellions, although I only get to play against BA, Tau, Nids, and SWs. Would like to see how you do against IG as well, as I see them being a hard matchup, if not almost unwinnable against a chimera-heavy list.

Overall, love your matches, keep em coming!

vishra wrote:Loving the reviews, very nice to have someone with competently built lists doing actual decent test games. I have to say, the more that I read of Eldar, the more I feel they will be a difficult matchup for DE. I would be interested to see how they do against a build with Fire Prisms, since they are as big of a pain as Broadsides in all honesty.

Also, I'm curious as to whether or not you will try a largely Hellion army anytime? I personally am running a 1500 point army with 3/4 squads of 10 hellions, although I only get to play against BA, Tau, Nids, and SWs. Would like to see how you do against IG as well, as I see them being a hard matchup, if not almost unwinnable against a chimera-heavy list.

Overall, love your matches, keep em coming!

I have two video battle reports in the works that are actually Hellion based armies

Your wish is my command!

Just watched the 2500 Eldar / WWP game, good stuff. A couple of quick questions/comments

1. You didn't mention the splinter cannons after the initial unit list which makes me think maybe you didn't actually take them? you need 10 to take a cannon.

2. How were you spreading wounds around with the grotesques? It seems to me that the most unique models you can end up with is 2 (1 liquifier and 1 abomination)

3. Crucible of Malediction vs Seer Council?

Anyway, great stuff! I am checking out the nids soon and can't wait to see those hellion lists in action.

Somnicide wrote:Just watched the 2500 Eldar / WWP game, good stuff. A couple of quick questions/comments

Thank you for watching! Let me see if I can help you with your inquiries

1. You didn't mention the splinter cannons after the initial unit list which makes me think maybe you didn't actually take them? you need 10 to take a cannon.

I didn't use any Splinter Cannons. Just a slip of the tongue.

2. How were you spreading wounds around with the grotesques? It seems to me that the most unique models you can end up with is 2 (1 liquifier and 1 abomination)

The unit has the following unique models;

1) Heamonculi
2) Aberration
3) Liquefier Gun
4) Stock Grotesques

3. Crucible of Malediction vs Seer Council?

A couple things about this;

1) That would be assuming I tailor my lists to beat my opponent. I do not do this, as this is a rather scummy thing to do. Now if BOTH players agree on this, than I don't mind, but I never tailor my lists to fight an opponent. My lists are made BEFORE I know who my opponent is, or at the very least, before I know what they are taking.

As such, I don't just give random Heamonculus the Crucible because of its limited use.

In this game that we are talking about, my opponent DID tailor his list against me without asking me, but as he is new to our store, I don't know if this is something he is used to, so I don't really care. I would rather fight a balanced list, but I play against whatever

2) It sucks. In the old book it used to have the range of the entire table, and even give negatives to the LD roll. Now, with it's random range and no innate negatives, it is just an inferior version of an item that was never taken anyway.

Anyway, great stuff! I am checking out the nids soon and can't wait to see those hellion lists in action.

Vroom Vroom!!

I don't think I "custom made" it towards DE. I would have been in a huge mess if you had brough a raider-heavy list as only a couple of units in the list could reliably take out a raider.

The list I used was pretty much based off a list I used back in an 'ard boyz tournament a couple of years ago. The HQ (except generic Farseer for Eldrad), FA, troops, elites were all the same. The heavy support in the tourney was 3 prisms - and as I said at the store, all my prisms are in a different box and I didn't want to lug it around in addition to my other three.

I'm a big fan of both the crack-tempest launcher dark reapers and Missile launcher war walker units. They have been very effective against everything from Chaos to Necrons to Orks and Tau. To think that I put them in there because I was facing DE is not true. I put them in because they were all in my green case


Also, I'm not of the opinion that taking an anti-psyker piece of wargear is tailoring your list. I do know that such a piece of wargear would hamper equally my Blood Angels and my Eldar.

New game is up!

1500 Dark Eldar versus Tyranids (Army Swap!) - Game 16

The eldar you played against has the worst 2500 eldar list ever fielded. Not only is it 110 points undercosted, but its just a bad list.

The 2500 DE list was interesting, but I cant believe I watched a Dark Eldar Player Split his forces. You came at him in waves like a video game, next time actually fight as an army not a wave.

Smitty0305 wrote:The eldar you played against has the worst 2500 eldar list ever fielded. Not only is it 110 points undercosted, but its just a bad list.

IMO Eldar just eat Dark Eldar for Breakfast.

Well, then a bad Eldar list beat a bad Dark Eldar list, so I guess we are even!

Go Eldar. Kick their arses!

Really? My list was "bad"?

Funny, I seem to have a pretty good record with it.

As for being 110 undercosted... you must be speaking of something else? Here's the list I used:

2500 Pts - Eldar Roster

HQ: Warlock Unit (8#, 560 pts)
. . 1 Farseer @ 175 pts ((pp.26, 28 & 60 Eldar); Independent Character; Unit Type: Jetbike Infantry; Psyker; Doom ; Fortune ; Turbo-boosters; Ghosthelm; Rune Armour; Runes of Warding; Spirit Stones; Eldar Jetbike; Shuriken Pistol; Witchblade; TL Shuriken Catapults x1)
. . 1 Warlock Unit @ 385 pts
. . . . 1 Warlock ((p.27-28 & p.60 Eldar); Unit Type: Jetbike Infantry; Psyker; Destructor ; Turbo-boosters; Rune Armour; Eldar Jetbike; Shuriken Pistol; Witchblade; TL Shuriken Catapults x1)
. . . . 1 Warlock ((p.27-28 & p.60 Eldar); Unit Type: Jetbike Infantry; Psyker; Destructor ; Turbo-boosters; Rune Armour; Eldar Jetbike; Shuriken Pistol; Witchblade; TL Shuriken Catapults x1)
. . . . 1 Warlock ((p.27-28 & p.60 Eldar); Unit Type: Jetbike Infantry; Psyker; Destructor ; Turbo-boosters; Rune Armour; Eldar Jetbike; Shuriken Pistol; Witchblade; TL Shuriken Catapults x1)
. . . . 1 Warlock ((p.27-28 & p.60 Eldar); Unit Type: Jetbike Infantry; Psyker; Destructor ; Turbo-boosters; Rune Armour; Eldar Jetbike; Shuriken Pistol; Witchblade; TL Shuriken Catapults x1)
. . . . 1 Warlock ((p.27-28 & p.60 Eldar); Unit Type: Jetbike Infantry; Psyker; Destructor ; Turbo-boosters; Rune Armour; Eldar Jetbike; Shuriken Pistol; Witchblade; TL Shuriken Catapults x1)
. . . . 1 Warlock ((p.27-28 & p.60 Eldar); Unit Type: Jetbike Infantry; Psyker; Embolden ; Turbo-boosters; Rune Armour; Eldar Jetbike; Shuriken Pistol; Witchblade; TL Shuriken Catapults x1)
. . . . 1 Warlock ((p.27-28 & p.60 Eldar); Unit Type: Jetbike Infantry; Psyker; Enhance ; Turbo-boosters; Rune Armour; Eldar Jetbike; Shuriken Pistol; Witchblade; TL Shuriken Catapults x1)

HQ: Eldrad Ulthran (1#, 210 pts)
. . 1 Eldrad Ulthran @ 210 pts ((pp.50-51 & 61 Eldar); Independent Character; Psyker; Doom ; Eldritch Storm ; Fortune ; Guide ; Mind War ; Divination; Ghosthelm; Rune Armour; Runes of Warding; Runes of Witnessing; Spirit Stones; Shuriken Pistol; Witchblade; Staff of Ulthamar)

Troops: Pathfinders (Rangers) (9#, 216 pts)
. . 9 Pathfinders (Rangers) @ 216 pts ((pp.38 & 64 Eldar); Fleet; Infiltrate; Move Through Cover; Stealth; Ignore Difficult Terrain; Pathfinder Stealth; Scouts; Pathfinders; Shuriken Pistol x9; Ranger Long Rifle)

Troops: Pathfinders (Rangers) (9#, 216 pts)
. . 9 Pathfinders (Rangers) @ 216 pts ((pp.38 & 64 Eldar); Fleet; Infiltrate; Move Through Cover; Stealth; Ignore Difficult Terrain; Pathfinder Stealth; Scouts; Pathfinders; Shuriken Pistol x9; Ranger Long Rifle)

Troops: Dire Avengers (11#, 292 pts)
. . 9 Dire Avengers @ 292 pts ((pp.30 & 64 Eldar); Fleet; Avenger S-Catapult)
. . . . 1 Dire Avenger Exarch (Fleet; Bladestorm ; 2 Avenger SC)
. . . . 1 Wave Serpent ((pp.45 & 63 Eldar); Unit Type: Vehicle (Skimmer, Tank, Fast); Energy Field; Spirit Stones; Shuriken Cannon; TL Missile Launchers)

Troops: Dire Avengers (11#, 297 pts)
. . 9 Dire Avengers @ 297 pts ((pp.30 & 64 Eldar); Fleet; Avenger S-Catapult)
. . . . 1 Dire Avenger Exarch (Fleet; Bladestorm ; 2 Avenger SC)
. . . . 1 Wave Serpent ((pp.45 & 63 Eldar); Unit Type: Vehicle (Skimmer, Tank, Fast); Energy Field; Spirit Stones; Shuriken Cannon; TL Starcannons)

Heavy Support: Dark Reapers (5#, 217 pts)
. . 4 Dark Reapers @ 217 pts ((pp.34 & 66 Eldar); Reaper Launcher)
. . . . 1 Dark Reaper Exarch ( Crack Shot ; Tempest Launcher)

Heavy Support: War Walker Squadron (3#, 210 pts)
. . 1 War Walker Squadron @ 210 pts ((pp.44 & 66 Eldar); Scouts)
. . . . 1 War Walker (Missile Launcher; Missile Launcher)
. . . . 1 War Walker (Missile Launcher; Missile Launcher)
. . . . 1 War Walker (Missile Launcher; Missile Launcher)

Fast Attack: Warp Spiders (10#, 262 pts)
. . 9 Warp Spiders @ 262 pts ((pp.36 & 65 Eldar); Unit Type: Jump Infantry; Warp Jump Generators; Death Spinner)
. . . . 1 Warp Spider Exarch (Unit Type: Jump Infantry; Withdraw ; Hit & Run; Warp Jump Generators; Powerblades; Death Spinner x2)

Validation Report:
Codex: Eldar Codex 2006; c-1. File Version: 1.09a For Bug Reports/www.ab40k.org; b-1. Roster Options: Special Characters; a-1. Scenario: Normal Mission
Roster satisfies all enforced validation rules

Total Roster Cost: 2480

Created with Army Builder® - Try it for free at http://www.wolflair.com

Great reports Buffo

Daemon Eater wrote:Great reports Buffo

Your avatar is highly disturbing!

Well I am a ferocious blood claw!

Defenestratus wrote:Really? My list was "bad"?

Funny, I seem to have a pretty good record with it.

You have to remember that if it's not recommended on the internet then it's bad.

I have to admit, it doesn't seem like the strongest of lists to me, but each to their own and if you know how to use it then that really makes the list completely viable. I wouldn't worry man.

Good stuff on the write ups and vids.

So you seem to be winning a lot, I haven't played for a long time, are you just the better player, or are de super good?

namegoeshere wrote:Good stuff on the write ups and vids.

So you seem to be winning a lot, I haven't played for a long time, are you just the better player, or are de super good?

6-2-2, at the moment, isn't really a lot. With the old DE book, between 2005 - now, I only lost 7 times, 2 of which were at 'Ard Boyz, and this is out of roughly 200 games. The old DE book was 'cheesier', but the new book is a different kind of powerful. A balanced powerful. The kind of powerful I have been dreaming about for years! Playing the new DE book is akin to when I played the old DE book roughly 3ish years after it came out.

Remember, with the old book, I had 12 years of experience using it. In a few years I think I'll be back in the same boat with the new DE codex. Yes, it takes years to learn Dark Eldar for many people.

I have been playing 40k since 1998, so the core concepts of the game are just part of who I am as a player. I can tell the difference between 19" and 20" without a measuring stick, if that can help you understand how well I know the game. The DE are pretty good in the right hands. It can be a weak army in the hands of a player who does not give the army a chance and spends time learning each unit intimately.

I am not the best, but I make a small attempt to learn something new every time I play the game. I refuse to just og through the motions to win. I play each game to educate myself.

My biggest concern is that the lists you're playing against don't look like serious competitive lists - the kind that traditionally make DE wince.

Mech IG. Spacewolf razorback spam. Blood angel razorback spam/predator spam. Mech IG. Also Mech IG. 7+ chimeras with bigger guns for support.

Also Dash you left off Mech IG, those bastards hurt my DE a lot!

Dashofpepper wrote:My biggest concern is that the lists you're playing against don't look like serious competitive lists - the kind that traditionally make DE wince.

Mech IG. Spacewolf razorback spam. Blood angel razorback spam/predator spam. Mech IG. Also Mech IG. 7+ chimeras with bigger guns for support.

\

1) My experiment is for me to learn the ins and outs of the new Dark Eldar units.

2) I have played, what you consider, WAAC lists and I have no problem beating them/nor interest in playing them. I am not doing this experiment to win games. I am doing it so I know how to use Reavers, Hellions, Scourges, all the units I never used in the last book.

3) By reading your signature, I can tell you play to win. This is fine, and I respect that, but in my area, winning takes a back seat for fun.

I knew the kind of responses I would get by posting this on Dakka. Bottom line is, nothing I field and nothing my opponent fields will ever be WAAC enough for the posters on Dakka. I can fight an army YOU consider WAAC, and I will get 10 people telling me my opponent is an idiot/fool/ignorant/noob for fielding unit x or unit y.

My blog is for your average 40k hobbyist that wants to have fun. They want to know what units work/don't work for THEM before making any purchases.

Want to beat those lists you mentioned? Spam out Blasters in a Kabal list or spam out Wyches w/ Haywire Grenades in a Cult list. Done. The only difference is WAAC IG. Whoever goes first wins.

- edit -

Only I have a WAAC IG army in my entire area. All the other IG armies are not up to what you consider WAAC. This means you won't be seeing a fight against a Chimera Army on my blog because I physically can't.

I will not play with myself either

The eldar list is actually pretty close to the ones that Blackmoor consistently mops people up with and then has to defend because people who haven't played against it say it sucks.

Footdar with seer council and eldrad is a deceptively good - my WAAC fatecrusher list was treated pretty rough by one of those footdar lists.

No offense Buffo, since I'm following your thread here and reading your blog, but I have fun winning....what exactly isn't fun about winning a game?

Great batreps BuFFo; I'm enjoying the video reports even more than I thought I would. A lot of video battle reports are a bit shaky and hard to follow, but you and your various opponents are doing a great job!

Bonus points for so many varied lists and point levels; versatility is a very useful skill for any general.

BuFFo wrote:I am currently in a Venom building contest... After the 29th, I will divulge everything about the Venom on here to you.

<3

Keep going BuFFo!

I have to say I'm a bit saddened by the number of negative comments you get. It seems like you spend a lot of time putting together a unique list to see how it works, playing it, filming it and remaining active to answer questions after uploading it. Then the first comment is someone saying illegal this or noob that.

Well, cheers for putting yourself out there and having fun

Awesome battle reports.

I don't know about others but the only reason I would have to see you play a WAAC list or mech IG is because you seem to be winning every game (or could have won if in a competitive environment) and the list you're using doesn't seem to be WAAC at all either. Put simply, I'm scared silly of these new invincible models.

Somnicide wrote:The eldar list is actually pretty close to the ones that Blackmoor consistently mops people up with and then has to defend because people who haven't played against it say it sucks.

Footdar with seer council and eldrad is a deceptively good - my WAAC fatecrusher list was treated pretty rough by one of those footdar lists.

I agree! There are plenty of "non internet" builds that do just fine, but people jsut refuse to awknowledge them. For instance, the gent who won first place at the 'Ard Boyz Semis this year in southern Florida was an all Genestealer / Gargoyle list.

Foot Eldar is very good. My opponent Defensetratus is a VERY good player, and a wonderful gentleman to play against. Playing him improves my game everytime, since he is such a wonderful opponent.

wileythenord wrote:No offense Buffo, since I'm following your thread here and reading your blog, but I have fun winning....what exactly isn't fun about winning a game?

Nothing at all! Sorry if I implied that winning isn't fun, or there is something wrong with winning. I never meant to come off that way.

The Defenestrator wrote:Great batreps BuFFo; I'm enjoying the video reports even more than I thought I would. A lot of video battle reports are a bit shaky and hard to follow, but you and your various opponents are doing a great job!

These videos are the first time I have ever recortded anything on video in my entire life. I haev never dealt with posting videos online, ever.

I am new to all this stuff, and I am very sorry for my shaky cam. I will try to do my best to keep the shakiness to a minimum!

grak wrote:Keep going BuFFo!

I have to say I'm a bit saddened by the number of negative comments you get. It seems like you spend a lot of time putting together a unique list to see how it works, playing it, filming it and remaining active to answer questions after uploading it. Then the first comment is someone saying illegal this or noob that.

Well, cheers for putting yourself out there and having fun

I welcome both positive and negative comments on my blog. As a matter of fact, I want people to speak their minds on my blog without fear of moderation or restriction of speech. People can be as harsh on me as they want, because that is part of the reason for my 45 games of Dark Eldar. I want to see how people react to my games, and I welcome all forms of criticisms.

The only kind of comment I do not tolerate on my blog is a comment based on hate, and even then only if it is directed at another poster. People can call me whatever they like, I don't care. Getting ANY reaction out of my viewers is my goal!

Mainly, I do this for the ladies and gents out there like yourself. If you are enjoying my idiocy trying to blindly learn the DE rules one fumbling game at a time, then I am doing something right, right?

rivers64 wrote:I don't know about others but the only reason I would have to see you play a WAAC list or mech IG is because you seem to be winning every game (or could have won if in a competitive environment) and the list you're using doesn't seem to be WAAC at all either. Put simply, I'm scared silly of these new invincible models.

Keep in mind that I have been playing the Dark Eldar as my main race since 1998 with only a two year break in between for my tour to Iraq. I know the old army like the back of my junk, and the new book isn't much different in play style and execution.

In the last two 'Ard Boyz, my only losses came at the hands of another Dark Eldar player last year, and the eventual Chaos Marine overall winner this year. Funny story that both of those players are best friends in real life as well, so go figure, right?

I am just LOVING the fact that the Dark Eldar book is a codex that has virtually NO bad units. There are a few lame ducks, but every unit has at least a good use for them somehow. I think this is the best written codex ever, because it captures the feel and fluff of the army while keeping it piowerful, yet without and cheese units or deathstar units to crutch the player into wins.

Gavrock wrote:

BuFFo wrote:I am currently in a Venom building contest... After the 29th, I will divulge everything about the Venom on here to you.

Here ya go!

Body - Vyper
Wings - Vyper wings cut off, and two rear Rutters from two Raider kits glued as the new wings
Tail - Skeleton Tail from a skeleton Chariot from the 1980's (magnetized)
Sail - From the Raider kit (magnetized)
Guns - Two Disintegrators used as Splinter Cannons from the Raider Kits (magnetized)
Body - Tomb King Chariot glued to the Vyper.

Incredible job

Very, very nice mate~! Tomb kings chariot was a great touch.

BuFFo wrote:These videos are the first time I have ever recortded anything on video in my entire life. I haev never dealt with posting videos online, ever.

I am new to all this stuff, and I am very sorry for my shaky cam. I will try to do my best to keep the shakiness to a minimum!

Yeesh, I'm zero for two for explaining myself while commenting on your bat reps today! I meant "other batreps I've seen are shakey"; if yours are at all, I haven't noticed!

That venom's really excellently executed by the way; did you consider tacking any of the "hanging on" warriors from the raider kit to it at all? I really like the image from the codex of a venom overloaded with incubi like it's a clown car.

PS best of luck in the BoLS venom build-off!

The Defenestrator wrote:

BuFFo wrote:These videos are the first time I have ever recortded anything on video in my entire life. I haev never dealt with posting videos online, ever.

I am new to all this stuff, and I am very sorry for my shaky cam. I will try to do my best to keep the shakiness to a minimum!

Yeesh, I'm zero for two for explaining myself while commenting on your bat reps today! I meant "other batreps I've seen are shakey"; if yours are at all, I haven't noticed!

That venom's really excellently executed by the way; did you consider tacking any of the "hanging on" warriors from the raider kit to it at all? I really like the image from the codex of a venom overloaded with incubi like it's a clown car.

PS best of luck in the BoLS venom build-off!

Oh snap dude! I am sorry... I am so used to reading things online and assuming it is negative. I just skim through most stuff, and just see everything as bad, lol.

Well, um, take your compliment and shove it! Positive criticisms online is heresy I say!



P.S. Yeah, I said 'Oh snap dude'. I am a white guy who grew up in the late 80's mid 90's as a kid. Sue me.

The eldar list at 2500 points isnt viable, and to think it is is nonsence. Is it fun to play? Yea if you and Buffo were out to have a fun game then thats chill with me I have nothing against that. I play sam han Jetdar, An entire alaitoc pathfinder army, and then I play my Mechdar for tourneys and such. Fun games are fun.

Im Curious, and Im sure many others are, as to how Dark Eldar will perform in Tournaments. We assume that in these 45 games you will put Dark Eldar up to the test against Mech IG/Demons/Mechdar/BloodAngles/Wolves/3 Mono Necrons/ect ect ect.

We are curious as to the tournament play of Dark Eldar.

If you wana play fun games with ur friends thats fine, but alot of us are interested to see how DE perform against WAAC armies.

Smitty0305 wrote:If you wana play fun games with ur friends thats fine, but alot of us are interested to see how DE perform against WAAC armies.

More power to you then!

So, between responses, the Venom conversion, and the batreps, think its safe to say: I award you the internet Buffo.

Even as a new player to 40k, I can even see that getting to know an entire codex is tough. I pulled a draw last night against Blood Angels that I shouldve won, if I had remembered the little detail of Hellions having hit and run. I know the DE codex decently, but there are still things I don't know, and I'm sure it's something most people deal with.

vishra wrote:So, between responses, the Venom conversion, and the batreps, think its safe to say: I award you the internet Buffo.

Even as a new player to 40k, I can even see that getting to know an entire codex is tough. I pulled a draw last night against Blood Angels that I shouldve won, if I had remembered the little detail of Hellions having hit and run. I know the DE codex decently, but there are still things I don't know, and I'm sure it's something most people deal with.

And that is exactly how the Dark Eldar play.

If you make a SINGLE mistake in the entire game, there is a good chance you'll get tabled or just plain won't win.

Mastery of the Dark Eldar is knowing every unit you have intimately, and how to use them against your opponent's army intimately.

You don't have mass Av12+ to hide behind. You don't have 3+ AS to hide behind. You don't have broke/cheese/power/deathstar units to cover for your inept strategies/tactics to hide behind.

Now get back on the battlefield and capture slaves for Commorragh!

I've throughly enjoyed your Batreps so far Buffo.

I hope to see some Scourges in Action more, they seem like they can really compliment multiple styles of play in a DE army, not to mention I'm sure the models will be neat when they come out!

Keep up the awesome work!

Sorry if this has been said b4 but game 15 list is illegal you MUST deploy duke with a trueborn or kabalite warrior squad. E.G. he cant deploy if you dont have one.

ThatMG wrote:Sorry if this has been said b4 but game 15 list is illegal you MUST deploy duke with a trueborn or kabalite warrior squad. E.G. he cant deploy if you dont have one.

Thank you for the heads up, but I'll continue deploying the Duke as per the IC rules and by the fact that he has no deployment restrictions besides giving a unit his special ability. He will continue to be played in Wych armies because 1) he can and 2) he can.

Your point has been duly noted. You said your piece, and I said mine. I will not discuss this any further in my thread.

If you have an issue with my games, point it out, as you have done, and then drop it, because this thread isn't about rules discussions. Keep all rules discussions in the proper forum.

Thank you very much.

As I have said before thank you for putting these reports together.

I have purchased and have been testing out a 1500pt dark eldar force, to get a feel for the army. I am not much into modeling or proxing so I will only be using the models available to purchase. Your reports have given me a good place to start with my purchases. I am a huge jet bike, with blasters fan, and think hellions with the duke are fantastic! Love sniping with the jet bikes and turbo boosting when things get to close. I also like one WWP but only for the bikes and hellions to come out of. As a army wide tactic, I agree with you, it does not work. But I like it as a cheap transport if you will.

Can't wait to see your take on the hellions when you get a chance to use them.

You might try the one WWP and just put 1 or 2 units in there that have a good range, like beasts, jump pack troops or bikes. It has worked wonders for me and used right makes nearly all models with a toughness have a better and more reliable outflank (type of thing). Also work great to hold a squad of troops in the web way and drop the template on / near and objective to come out later in the game. Just my thoughts anyway.

Love your Venom! Might have to try that as my first proxie.

I like the video reports for entertainment and the maps for education. So hope you still plan on doing a good mix of both.

Thanks

Yeah, I haven't built an army around the single WWP with one or two units in it yet.

I will most definitely do that

I have a dew Hellion games under my belt. They will be up soon enough

Smitty0305 wrote: Im Curious, and Im sure many others are, as to how Dark Eldar will perform in Tournaments. We assume that in these 45 games you will put Dark Eldar up to the test against Mech IG/Demons/Mechdar/BloodAngles/Wolves/3 Mono Necrons/ect ect ect.

We are curious as to the tournament play of Dark Eldar.

If you wana play fun games with ur friends thats fine, but alot of us are interested to see how DE perform against WAAC armies.

... and a lot of us aren't.

Keep 'em coming, BuFFo. It's the random nature of these games - both yours and your opponents' lists - that I find really intriguing. Coming into the Christmas season, it's like a DE advent calendar.

I love your venom. By chance mine have the exact same primary components (Vyper body & reversed Tomb Kings Chariot body). I extended the back a little with plasticard, but I haven't bought any Raider kits yet, so didn't have a sail or blades to add yet, and yours looks substantially sexier. Still, I'll have to see about posting pics of mine over in the modeling forum.

Please feel free to add your pics to the Dakka Gallery! I don't know if you noticed, but you can attach/upload pics directly to Dakka using the "attachments" button at the bottom of your posts, and don't have to use a separate image hosting service. We just ask that they all be wargaming related.

Your reports have been a lot of fun to read and also educational, while I'm learning the DE codex too.

BuFFo wrote:Yeah, I haven't built an army around the single WWP with one or two units in it yet.

I will most definitely do that

I have a dew Hellion games under my belt. They will be up soon enough

I'm really excited to see this type of force. I've been dreaming up a Hellion list @ 1500 led by the Baron (of course) with a WWP Haemy in a Harlequin squad, 2 6 man squads of Reaver Jetbikes with heat lances, and 10 man squad of Scourges with heat lances and I'd really like to see how something like this plays. At first I scoffed @ Hellions, but 3 WS 4 Str 4 I6 attacks on the charge from Jump Infantry WITH fleet as scoring units is pretty cool. And they have Hit & Run. And they get Combat Drugs. AND their splinter pods are pretty good.

I had similar experiences with an "all or nothing" WWP army. It just isn't nearly as mobile as you would think. WWP still works best with fast units that can use the portal to make their movement more unpredictable and allows you to suck the enemy in per say and then arrive from the middle of the table for a counter assault. But it's nothing to build an army around.

How did you model your scourges? I'm planning on just using Swooping Hawks and painted them darker colors. I also considered Kabalite Warriors with Sanguinary Guard packs and wings, but this would be less like the picture in the book and more of a "counts-as", but has the advantage of being plastic.

BuFFo wrote:

ThatMG wrote:Sorry if this has been said b4 but game 15 list is illegal you MUST deploy duke with a trueborn or kabalite warrior squad. E.G. he cant deploy if you dont have one.

Thank you for the heads up, but I'll continue deploying the Duke as per the IC rules and by the fact that he has no deployment restrictions besides giving a unit his special ability. He will continue to be played in Wych armies because 1) he can and 2) he can.

No deployment restrictions? To paraphrase "Pick a unit of kabalite at the beginning of the game, Sliscus must be deployed with this unit." if you can't do that you can't deploy him.

ChrisCP, feel free to start a new thread in You Make Da Call if you want to debate this. He's stated his position and this is not the right thread to harp on it.

AspireToGlory wrote:

How did you model your scourges? I'm planning on just using Swooping Hawks and painted them darker colors. I also considered Kabalite Warriors with Sanguinary Guard packs and wings, but this would be less like the picture in the book and more of a "counts-as", but has the advantage of being plastic.

I am lazy.

I am just going to slightly modify some wings I have and glue them to Warriors. Nothing fancy, but enough to get the job done.

I may add some extra armor to the model to show it is Ghostplate Armor they have instead of Kabalite Armor.

Mannahnin wrote:ChrisCP, feel free to start a new thread in You Make Da Call if you want to debate this. He's stated his position and this is not the right thread to harp on it.

If Buffo is trying to learn and show how DE play, it seems to me that it would be important that he show them how to be played by the rules. His gaming group also does not use GW FAQ's, which is fine. However, if the as he said, the purpose of this thread is to learn his Dark Eldar army as well as shown others how the Dark Eldar codex plays, then he is doing a disservice by not using the FAQ or even the codex rules as written.

If that won't be the case, then maybe the thread should be changed to "45 Games with Dark Eldar (using Buffo's rules)"

Brother Ramses wrote:

Mannahnin wrote:ChrisCP, feel free to start a new thread in You Make Da Call if you want to debate this. He's stated his position and this is not the right thread to harp on it.

If Buffo is trying to learn and show how DE play, it seems to me that it would be important that he show them how to be played by the rules. His gaming group also does not use GW FAQ's, which is fine. However, if the as he said, the purpose of this thread is to learn his Dark Eldar army as well as shown others how the Dark Eldar codex plays, then he is doing a disservice by not using the FAQ or even the codex rules as written.

If that won't be the case, then maybe the thread should be changed to "45 Games with Dark Eldar (using Buffo's rules)"

Every game of 40k IS by the rules between both players agree to play by. 40k is NOT a tournament based game with iron clad rules. Never was, never will be. It is an afternoon game between friends over beer, hookers and more beer with a rule set that is really a collection of suggestions rather than hard rules. Check out the Most Important Rule in the main rule book for this.

I am not going to devolve this thread into a pointless rules lawyer debate over such a stupid thing as to whether I can or cannot deploy the Baron.

Let me put it bluntly, a MOD has told another poster to drop this, I suggest you do the same. I will begin to report people who attempt to derail this thread.

There is a reason why this very same rule debate got LOCKED by a mod in the rules forum, and I will not have it here.

If I want to play my entire Kabalite Warrior army armed with Dark Lances and Puppy Dog shields, and my opponent is okay with it, that is the kind of game YOU WILL SEE on my blog. If you do not like it, then I am sorry I could not be of better help, but maybe my blog nor my games are for you to see.

Sorry!

And we are saying, it nice to let people know when you're 'house ruling' something as many players who would be less knowledgeable about things like hellions str read your blog, would goto a GW or gameing club and find themselves playing BuFFoHammer not 40k. In turn this could result in a new player having a very embarrasing experiance - due to following the example of someone not following the rules as it were, and their not being clear on the matter. See our Pov there?

ChrisCP wrote:And we are saying, it nice to let people know when you're 'house ruling'

Agreed. When I house rule something, it will be known, but since I haven't house ruled once in any video or map battle report yet, I wouldn't worry about it if I were you.

To be honest many people have different view points on the subject of the baron. It HAS not been proven to be true one way or another. There for how HIS group uses it is just as valid as any other. There for no need to A.) Make a rules discussion out of it. B.) Imply that he should make a notation of it at this stage. (Its a GW game... So with how the rules are written you would have to do that with tons of units and rules. That it would read more like a legal document then a battle report. )

As Buffo said fun games, nuff said. Take from it what you will and apply what ever side you take on rules discussions concerning RAW vs RAI arguments and modify them internally. Agree with the mods.

Anyway. Buffo, I played with the beasts today. Using the fun little maxed out bat squad. Nothing better then seeing your opponent's eyes pop with 60 rending attacks. They are a bit fast as well! Are you planning to use razorwings and void ravens as well? I assume yes, but don't really know.

Also what are you opinion of the Bloodbrides? They look evil if used right but do you think they are competitive vs the other elites slots?

Sha1emade wrote:Anyway. Buffo, I played with the beasts today. Using the fun little maxed out bat squad. Nothing better then seeing your opponent's eyes pop with 60 rending attacks. They are a bit fast as well!

My Beastmen units run as the following

5 Beastmasters
5 Kymarae
2 Clawed Fiends
4 Razor Flocks

I love this unit. It is so fast, and so much fun!

Are you planning to use razorwings and void ravens as well?

I have played a game versus Space Wolves with triple Razorwings.... I won't spoil it, but Razorwings kited out for anti-infantry is extremely powerful! It'll be up soon!

Also what are you opinion of the Bloodbrides? They look evil if used right but do you think they are competitive vs the other elites slots?

I love them!

For the same cost as Wyches in the old DE codex, they got a +1 LD and +1 Attack. That right there makes them worth it.

Also, triple Shardnets is so nice. Making a Hive Tyrant attack only once every turn is oh so sweet.

Try sticking a Clone field Archon, or even Urien, with Bloodbrides and watch as your opponent cannot get any attacks off on your IC model It is pretty sweet negating attacks on your IC. Urien is double nice because he just heals any wounds he takes anyway!

I will try some of those suggestions.

I only tried the beastmasters because you made them sound fun. I had some chaos hound models so I thought I would give them a try. Will try your combo and see how it works, it does seem like a great way to run them. Just need some suitable proxies. I was thinking what you said with bloodbrides but have yet to try it. Good to see you having some success with them. I have not run into a unit that does not work well yet but have not had the luxury to try as many as you have.

Your reports are like cliff notes. Many things look good / bad on paper. Experience with them in a game situation is a totally different ball game however.

Hey BuFFo .. how are you finding Mandrakes? Maybe I'm missing something but nothing about them screams 'must have!' to me ... although the models are extremely nice.

BuFFo wrote:

Dashofpepper wrote:My biggest concern is that the lists you're playing against don't look like serious competitive lists - the kind that traditionally make DE wince.

Mech IG. Spacewolf razorback spam. Blood angel razorback spam/predator spam. Mech IG. Also Mech IG. 7+ chimeras with bigger guns for support.

\

1) My experiment is for me to learn the ins and outs of the new Dark Eldar units.

2) I have played, what you consider, WAAC lists and I have no problem beating them/nor interest in playing them. I am not doing this experiment to win games. I am doing it so I know how to use Reavers, Hellions, Scourges, all the units I never used in the last book.

3) By reading your signature, I can tell you play to win. This is fine, and I respect that, but in my area, winning takes a back seat for fun.

I knew the kind of responses I would get by posting this on Dakka. Bottom line is, nothing I field and nothing my opponent fields will ever be WAAC enough for the posters on Dakka. I can fight an army YOU consider WAAC, and I will get 10 people telling me my opponent is an idiot/fool/ignorant/noob for fielding unit x or unit y.

My blog is for your average 40k hobbyist that wants to have fun. They want to know what units work/don't work for THEM before making any purchases.

Want to beat those lists you mentioned? Spam out Blasters in a Kabal list or spam out Wyches w/ Haywire Grenades in a Cult list. Done. The only difference is WAAC IG. Whoever goes first wins.

- edit -

Only I have a WAAC IG army in my entire area. All the other IG armies are not up to what you consider WAAC. This means you won't be seeing a fight against a Chimera Army on my blog because I physically can't.

I will not play with myself either

OP: Stop referring to WAAC. Win At All Cost means doing ANYTHING to win. At ALL cost. There's a HUGE difference between being a competitive gamer and being a WAAC gamer. A chimera heavy list is a potentially competitive list. There is no such thing as a WAAC list, there are only WAAC gamers. Whether or not you have cheaters and WAAC gamers in your area or not is irrelevant, my concern remains the same - the lists you're playing against don't feel like real challenges to the capabilities of the Dark Eldar. They don't push the envelope or exploit for weaknesses. If your goal is to find out how to use those units - Reavers, Hellions, Scourges....shouldn't you be putting them to the test against armies that can test them?

I'm not discouraging you from writing battle reports, but my agenda in reading battle reports is to see how Dark Eldar can fare under different conditions, how they can prevail through different challenges.....to look for things I haven't thought of, and see how other people succeeded or failed - and without serious testing of your codex or its abilities by what the majority of people are running these days, its difficult to get value out of a batrep.

Don't find yourself a WAAC gamer to throw yourself against, but please pit yourself against a couple things that typically challenge DE. Mech IG being one of them.

Necroagogo wrote:Hey BuFFo .. how are you finding Mandrakes? Maybe I'm missing something but nothing about them screams 'must have!' to me ... although the models are extremely nice.

That's because they really aren't any good. I've made plenty of lists so far out of the new codex, and there's three units I've never used:

Hekatrix Bloodbrides: They aren't really bad, I've just not been able to really find a use for them.
Beastmasters: This unit confuses the hell out of me, I'm not really sure what it's place is, and the lack of interesting modelling ideas doesn't help
Mandrakes: Bad

Necroagogo wrote:Hey BuFFo .. how are you finding Mandrakes? Maybe I'm missing something but nothing about them screams 'must have!' to me ... although the models are extremely nice.

You see, if people played Pinning as the main rule book has it, then the unit would be fine, but people want to play pinning with its super nerfed iteration in the FAQ, so I see no point to play with this unit outside some outflanking shenanigans.

I will be play testing this unit a few times though.

Dashofpepper wrote:OP: Stop referring to WAAC. Win At All Cost means doing ANYTHING to win. At ALL cost. There's a HUGE difference between being a competitive gamer and being a WAAC gamer. A chimera heavy list is a potentially competitive list. There is no such thing as a WAAC list, there are only WAAC gamers. Whether or not you have cheaters and WAAC gamers in your area or not is irrelevant, my concern remains the same - the lists you're playing against don't feel like real challenges to the capabilities of the Dark Eldar. They don't push the envelope or exploit for weaknesses. If your goal is to find out how to use those units - Reavers, Hellions, Scourges....shouldn't you be putting them to the test against armies that can test them?

I'm not discouraging you from writing battle reports, but my agenda in reading battle reports is to see how Dark Eldar can fare under different conditions, how they can prevail through different challenges.....to look for things I haven't thought of, and see how other people succeeded or failed - and without serious testing of your codex or its abilities by what the majority of people are running these days, its difficult to get value out of a batrep.

Don't find yourself a WAAC gamer to throw yourself against, but please pit yourself against a couple things that typically challenge DE. Mech IG being one of them.

Nice opinion. Just take a minute to stop and breathe, and remember, it is just your opinion.

Not to derail too much, but I agree to an extent. Lists have varying levels of competitiveness. I have had great games being stomped by very hard lists and I have had awful games against soft lists piloted by WAAC gamers.

I think the important piece to take out of it is your play group is composed of great players who do not fall into this WAAC category. Their lists may not be as hard as some people want to see, but it looks like your games are tons of fun.

In general, thanks for sharing them with us.

I'll agree that the label "WAAC" does have the general connotation of a player who goes to inappropriate and unsportsmanlike lengths (often including inaccurate measurements and/or misinterpreting the rules in ways favorable to themselves) to win the game. "At all costs" has a pretty clear negative meaning.

I think Buffo's position on how he plays his games and who and what he plays them against is totally legitimate. But I do think he was a bit off-base and harsh when he referred to an "optimized" or "maximized" army as being WAAC.

---------------

ChrisCP, Brother Ramses, I asked politely for people to drop the rules debate. This interpretation is one where people have legitimate differences of opinion, and labeling the interpretation you disagree with as a "house rule" is inflammatory and unnecessarily confrontational.

To be clear- further posts debating that particular rule in this thread are off topic and inappropriate.

Make a new thread in You Make Da Call if you want to talk about the Duke's rules. Stop dragging this thread off topic, when the thread's originator has expressed his opinion and rationale and indicated that he would prefer not to debate it further here.

Mannahnin wrote:I'll agree that the label "WAAC" does have the general connotation of a player who goes to inappropriate and unsportsmanlike lengths (often including inaccurate measurements and/or misinterpreting the rules in ways favorable to themselves) to win the game. "At all costs" has a pretty clear negative meaning.

I think Buffo's position on how he plays his games and who and what he plays them against is totally legitimate. But I do think he was a bit off-base and harsh when he referred to an "optimized" or "maximized" army as being WAAC.

---------------

ChrisCP, Brother Ramses, I asked politely for people to drop the rules debate. This interpretation is one where people have legitimate differences of opinion, and labeling the interpretation you disagree with as a "house rule" is inflammatory and unnecessarily confrontational.

To be clear- further posts debating that particular rule in this thread are off topic and inappropriate. Make a new thread in You Make Da Call if you care that much.

No, not at all, because in the context of who I was playing, they were WAAC players.

I am not here to debate the meaning of WAAC because there is none. Everyone has their own opinion at to what it means.

What I am saying is that in some of the games I have played, and some of the the people I have played, WAAC fits them perfectly because they make a list just to win. Not to be fair, not to make the game fun for BOTH players, but just to win.

Now if you guys want WAAC to include an opponent who will slash your tires, rape your sister and commit murder to win, then that is fine, but I am not.

I will continue to call my opponents who just want to win WAAC players. Any negative connotations put on that term is up to YOU guys. I never did any such thing. I like being a WAAC player from time to time, but ONLY if my opponent knows I am doing so.

I don't see anything negative about such a term.

BuFFo wrote:
...an opponent who will slash your tires, rape your sister and commit murder to win...

This made me laugh. I would hate to have to buy new tires.

calypso2ts wrote:

BuFFo wrote:
...an opponent who will slash your tires, rape your sister and commit murder to win...

This made me laugh. I would hate to have to buy new tires.

LOL!!!!

Wait... What???

Rape and Murder doesn't bother you, but spending resources does?

You ARE a Dark Eldar, aren't you?

BuFFo, you don't get to redefine words.

WAAC is exactly that - winning at all cost. You've been keen on advising other posters in here on what the moderators have said, so I'll extend you the same courtesey. When they say that WAAC has a clear negative meaning, that using it too loosely is insulting, or too harsh - you should take that under advisement.

Just because YOU are comfortable calling someone a name doesn't make it right to do so; otherwise there would be no turmoil over epithets relating to racial, social, political or religious affairs. I *CAN* tell you that if someone calls me a WAAC gamer, I'm going to very strongly encourage them to pack up their models and exit the premises immediately while I'm feeling generous enough to make the offer. Because doing so is calling me a cheater and a liar.

In case you're not being deliberately obtuse about what WAAC is, you can mouse over it to see what it stands for; Win At All Costs. Anything that secures the win, any exploitation of the rules, loophole, cheating, extra measurement, ANYTHING that will garner you an advantage unfair or not is justified in pursuit of the win. That is *not* in the same category, or even the same hemisphere as someone who plays competitively or plays to win.

Buffo wrote:
I will continue to call my opponents who just want to win WAAC players. Any negative connotations put on that term is up to YOU guys. I never did any such thing. I like being a WAAC player from time to time, but ONLY if my opponent knows I am doing so.

Right. And calling black people any name you like is ok. THEY are the ones associating negative connotations. And affectionately calling my wife a dirty slut is also ok; she just needs to know my personal definition of the word, not the actual one.

This topic has come about because in response to a constructive request for you to find some competitive opponents, or to play against some competitive lists as a means of providing some truly useful feedback on the capabilities and limitations of the codex, you went berzerk with the WAAC bit.

Relax.

Buffo good job. Just play against who you want to play against and I'll keep enjoying the awesome reports.

rivers64 wrote:Buffo good job. Just play against who you want to play against and I'll keep enjoying the awesome reports.

Will you buy me a Valentine Days gift?

BuFFo wrote:

rivers64 wrote:Buffo good job. Just play against who you want to play against and I'll keep enjoying the awesome reports.

Will you buy me a Valentine Days gift?

Lets not get ahead of ourselves here.

So..... when is the next betrep going to be up already?

Really enjoying the reports so far Buffo!!
Its nice to get a heads up on DE before I have to face them..
Oh and good job deflecting all the flame artists too....
You've conducted yourself like a gent in this thread, which by the way is very un Dark eldar of you. You should go enslave and torture some kittens to make ammends imo.

kaiservonhugal wrote:So..... when is the next betrep going to be up already?

Working on it right now actually, and uploading it in about an hour!

Holy~Heretic wrote:Really enjoying the reports so far Buffo!!
Its nice to get a heads up on DE before I have to face them..
Oh and good job deflecting all the flame artists too....
You've conducted yourself like a gent in this thread, which by the way is very un Dark eldar of you. You should go enslave and torture some kittens to make ammends imo.

It is HARD to change your tune once you become the center of attention, as my blog has made me lately. When you have a following, it is your responsibility to be mature and level headed. God I hate politics.... I have been banned on tons of forums because I tend to speak my mind (usually to the Mods, never the posters, go figure), but not this time!

Torture kittens? Why yes! I am a Dog person after all....

New game is up!!

1500 Cult/Coven/Cabal versus Ultramarines - Game 8

Nice to see a unorthodox list with no real focus in battle. Your lack of Dark light weapons made that game a uphill battle vs a armored foe. Don't want to spoil it for anyone but good to see ya make the most out of a bad situation. If it worked or not people will have to read for themselves.

Have you/ will you be fighting any necron opponents? Just curious to see how the two armies will face off. Would be cool to see drazar in action as well. He is not in my plans for the future but I like the concept of him. Keep the reports coming. Most of us just like reading / watching the reports and could care less about the little things. If you get to 45 games we will all get what we need out of them one way or another. Hopefully even you.

hey Buffo can you try to find an IG army to play against? im dieing to see how they roll.

Sha1emade wrote:Nice to see a unorthodox list with no real focus in battle. Your lack of Dark light weapons made that game a uphill battle vs a armored foe. Don't want to spoil it for anyone but good to see ya make the most out of a bad situation. If it worked or not people will have to read for themselves.

Yeah, I thought it was a good exercise in "how to not let your fears dictate your Strategies".

Have you/ will you be fighting any necron opponents? Just curious to see how the two armies will face off.

All Necron players in my area have either given up the army or actually given up on GW products. No exaggeration either. I have no Necron opponents to play against, even with 20+ people in my area.

Would be cool to see drazar in action as well.

He is so horrible. I tried him in a game, and, ugh, he just isn't good at all. I will try him a few more times, but I really don't like him. He isn't an IC killer like you think he SHOULD be, and he is WAAAY too expensive to be a unit killer. Mephiston he is not!

TheMicah25 wrote:hey Buffo can you try to find an IG army to play against? im dieing to see how they roll.

In my area, I am the only IG player. There is another person, but he doesn't come to the store anymore due to baby mama drama.

I know of a person in my area who actually reads Dakka, maybe he'll get a game in sometime. We aren't really friends, so who knows.

I could lend someone my army, and that is the best I could do.

Great job Buffo, i enjoy reading all your reports. Very clear and concise!

Keep doing what you are doing, its all good. And dont listen to people demanding that you play "competative" lists. I have never played against anyone that has ran a RB spam SW list or whatever else is deemed "strong" by people desperate to win, and i enjoy reading these nice fun reports.

The thing that i dont understand about "competative" lists is, how many people actually make them? I just sorta.. fell into the hobby and as a result bought a whole mish mash of models. Which is why i like your reports cos it seems like most people do the same, none of the UM/Vanilla lists look that disimilar from armies i would put out. You know, devestators, VV, regular termies, assault marines.. all the things that powergames wont touch! But i bought em, and i painted em, so i want to use them! And that takes a back seat to making an optimised list in my book. (I spent AGES on my sweet thunderfire cannon!)

I really dont think i have turned up anywhere and seen a SM list that has been 9 Razorbacks or 5 double AC dreds or whatever, because i just dont think many people ignore all the cool fun models and buy like 10 of the same thing unless they play tourneys.

Do they?! Ive got about 6000 points but i wouldnt be able to run a "competative" list because i dont have more than three of one model! I HAVE got one of pretty much everything in the codex though. It might not make a spam list that wins alot, but its fun to make all sorts of different lists and play with them.

BuFFo wrote:

Mannahnin wrote:I'll agree that the label "WAAC" does have the general connotation of a player who goes to inappropriate and unsportsmanlike lengths (often including inaccurate measurements and/or misinterpreting the rules in ways favorable to themselves) to win the game. "At all costs" has a pretty clear negative meaning.

I think Buffo's position on how he plays his games and who and what he plays them against is totally legitimate. But I do think he was a bit off-base and harsh when he referred to an "optimized" or "maximized" army as being WAAC.

---------------

ChrisCP, Brother Ramses, I asked politely for people to drop the rules debate. This interpretation is one where people have legitimate differences of opinion, and labeling the interpretation you disagree with as a "house rule" is inflammatory and unnecessarily confrontational.

To be clear- further posts debating that particular rule in this thread are off topic and inappropriate. Make a new thread in You Make Da Call if you care that much.

No, not at all, because in the context of who I was playing, they were WAAC players.

I am not here to debate the meaning of WAAC because there is none. Everyone has their own opinion at to what it means.

What I am saying is that in some of the games I have played, and some of the the people I have played, WAAC fits them perfectly because they make a list just to win. Not to be fair, not to make the game fun for BOTH players, but just to win.

Now if you guys want WAAC to include an opponent who will slash your tires, rape your sister and commit murder to win, then that is fine, but I am not.

I will continue to call my opponents who just want to win WAAC players. Any negative connotations put on that term is up to YOU guys. I never did any such thing. I like being a WAAC player from time to time, but ONLY if my opponent knows I am doing so.

I don't see anything negative about such a term.

If you enjoy loosing games and playing against incompetant lists then by all means have a blast.

Hey, Winning isnt for everyone Buffo.

Here is a concept, Smitty0305 and other nay Sayers, make your own battle reports the way you want them. VS the types you want to play against.

What Buffo is doing is like entertaining school. Fast, loose and fun. You get what you want out of them. Give the guy a break already. He has spoken his peace and is doing his thing. Please stop derailing his thread with the negative attitude comments. This thread is one of the main reasons myself and a few others come to dakka.

I say this as I am a competitive player who does not use power lists like you are requesting, fight them sure, but not very often. This thread is valuable information for players like me who play fun armies but also do well with them. Normal gaming in many parts of the country do not see power lists all the time.

Please don't be so negative vs this thread. It would appear the negativity vs Buffo is in the minority and MODS, buffo, myself and others have asked polity to stop with the negative comments. Please respect our right to a great thread. We do not want this locked or worse yet have Buffo stop.

Also remember the way he is playing is for the best. DE are tricky to use. He is putting them threw the motions. Figuring out how they work best. I will bet you after he knows all the units and knows them well we will see the DE vs some of the very tough cookies, like Mech Ig and the rest. Its like prize fighting. You don't go after the title in your fist couple of fights. You will get K.O'd in no time and you will learn nothing by it, except that he punches hard. You have to be ready and prepared. Buffo seems to be training. I do not doubt later in the 45 games the games will become more challenging. Just let the guy do some push ups first.

I go after the prize with my first few fights

Couldn't help it. Continue!

When do we get to see some hawt Mandrake action?

thedarksaint wrote:When do we get to see some hawt Mandrake action?

Never!

(I like how a living shadow is ID by a multi laser)

Sha1emade wrote:Here is a concept, Smitty0305 and other nay Sayers, make your own battle reports the way you want them. VS the types you want to play against.

They won't, and you know it... These people are just lazy arm chair generals. Literally. I doubt they can get out of their chairs. lol!

I do not doubt later in the 45 games the games will become more challenging. Just let the guy do some push ups first.

I have already faced games that are 'more challenging'. Tell me, why do you not consider an Eldar list tailored to beat Dark Eldar, a typical WAAC Blood Angels build, and two Space Wolf builds with 15 Long Fangs (twice), not challenging?

What do you want me to do, play the games blindfolded?

thedarksaint wrote:When do we get to see some hawt Mandrake action?

One day I'll make a list with some Mandrakes, don't you worry your pretty little head!

@Buffo

You do realize that Dashofpepper at least has put up an insane amount of batreps right? Just making sure you realize that before stating that anyone disagreeing wtih you is to lazy to do it themselves. Accurate statements are good statements

Otherwise I could care less.

Hulksmash wrote:@Buffo

You do realize that Dashofpepper at least has put up an insane amount of batreps right? Just making sure you realize that before stating that anyone disagreeing wtih you is to lazy to do it themselves. Accurate statements are good statements

Otherwise I could care less.

I love you?

And yeah, you do care, obviously...

MasticatorDeelux wrote:Wow, nice reports. DE seem to be a real powerhouse. Any plans on taking on a MEQ army?

ugh, your avatar makes me want to kill babies...

Anyway, great reports! I hope you get to play CSM soon!

BuFFo wrote:

Hulksmash wrote:@Buffo

You do realize that Dashofpepper at least has put up an insane amount of batreps right? Just making sure you realize that before stating that anyone disagreeing wtih you is to lazy to do it themselves. Accurate statements are good statements

Otherwise I could care less.

He has added nothing constructive to this thread, only acting destructive, so I could care less about what he has done elsewhere.

And yeah, you do care, obviously...

Your cute Buffo. I only cared that statements are made accurately. Which I said.

For the greater part of the thread if you want to play fun pick up games using random units in the codex in not-nearly optomized lists against less than stellar opponents then all power to you. As long as you enjoy it then your golden man. I read a couple of your Batrep's when they first went up and quickly realized that for me, personally, I would get next to nothing out of them. Which is fine. Other people might and that makes it a worthwhile endeavor. I do pop in from time to time to see if perhaps the tone/type of army/or type of player has changed. If it had I'd probably give them another look otherwise I generally back right out again.

Enjoy it man. More power to you. 45 games is not a small amount in our hobby which generally equates to around just 90 hours of playing time. Kudos and chill out. You get worked up to easily

BuFFo wrote:

Hulksmash wrote:@Buffo

You do realize that Dashofpepper at least has put up an insane amount of batreps right? Just making sure you realize that before stating that anyone disagreeing wtih you is to lazy to do it themselves. Accurate statements are good statements

Otherwise I could care less.

He has added nothing constructive to this thread, only acting destructive, so I could care less about what he has done elsewhere.

And yeah, you do care, obviously...

So we're only allowed to post in the thread if we are being supportive and agree with how you play the game? Interesting.....

Although many people say that your an idiot if you think there are no bad units and just bad generals it is kind of true.

The game has become more objective based and although killing your opponent is awesome units worth can't always be measured in "did it make its points back in killing"

Many batreps have models that do not make their points back but contest or hold an objective for the win, or tie up some deathstar unit for a turn or 2, they don't get their points back directly but they deny/ allow something else to happen.

Although the name calling is not necessary on either side, and there is a point that none of the lists seem to be the standard "competitive" lists it is nice and in a way rewarding to see batreps of not common army builds, and not common units.

It adds reading variety, and it shows that some units do have value.

What would be interesting to me would be a archon and 3 haemonoculi list that uses some of the odder haemonoculi wargear and a court of the archon, chance I will see someone post a batrep of what is considered a noncompetitive army on a normal basis? pretty much 0.

however this thread delivers such batreps, not that it has that one yet but you get the idea.

That said I also love reading dashofpeppers batreps, as well as other peoples. They usually are great reads and he comes across as a level headed player that likes to try and find highly competitive army builds. He has never come across as some jackhole I MUST WIN AND CRUSH YOU BOW BEFORE MY PLASTIC AND PEWTER MIGHT POOR GAMERS AND DESPAIR! kind of guy

blaktoof wrote:Although many people say that your an idiot if you think there are no bad units and just bad generals it is kind of true.

Now I am sure you can post intelligently without resorting to insults. You seem like a mature adult, so curb the snide remarks a bit please?

The game has become more objective based and although killing your opponent is awesome units worth can't always be measured in "did it make its points back in killing"

I agree. I have never believed that stupid term that a unit has to make its poitns back. Utter rubbish. Units need to work together as a whole to help you win the mission.

Many batreps have models that do not make their points back but contest or hold an objective for the win, or tie up some deathstar unit for a turn or 2, they don't get their points back directly but they deny/ allow something else to happen.

Exactly!

Although the name calling is not necessary on either side, and there is a point that none of the lists seem to be the standard "competitive" lists it is nice and in a way rewarding to see batreps of not common army builds, and not common units.

Actually, I am new here on Dakka, and ot be honest, before I came here I heard from long time posters how ignorant people on here can be when compared to other forums. When I first starting posting, I didn't really see any of that, but now that this thread has reached 9 pages, I can see the snide remarks coming out of the wood works.

I am seriously considering just posting my results on the other forums I visit because this one happens to be the only one that is starting to seem like Warseer in disguise.

What is keeping me here are the posters like yourself, who understand tact and know how to converse like an adult. Well, except for your first statement, but hey, nobody is perfect... I try hard each day to bite my tongue on here.

What would be interesting to me would be a archon and 3 haemonoculi list that uses some of the odder haemonoculi wargear and a court of the archon, chance I will see someone post a batrep of what is considered a noncompetitive army on a normal basis? pretty much 0.

What?

See, this is what I am trying to desperately get used to. Half my viewers swear my games are all for fun, and the other half swear there all competitive WAAC games.

I have already played a game with a Court with Archon and 3 Heamonculi actually., and they did quite well, but I will play the list again in the near future for you! I will make sure the Heamonculi have more varied Wargear.

however this thread delivers such batreps, not that it has that one yet but you get the idea.

You must have missed it...

http://awesomesaucestudio.blogspot.com/2010/10/1500-cirque-de-commorragh-versus.html

Peace!

I see you ahve yet to take on the Imperial Guard. Our local DE player says thats a hard match-up(I should know because I was the one bringing the beat down).

(Unless you already did and I missed it)

BuFFo wrote:

blaktoof wrote:Although many people say that your an idiot if you think there are no bad units and just bad generals it is kind of true.

Now I am sure you can post intelligently without resorting to insults. You seem like a mature adult, so curb the snide remarks a bit please?

I did not mean any snide remark, my sincerest of apologies.

My statement was solely in reference to people who dislike the concept of taking non standard "competitive builds" for any game because they believe some units are inherently better than others and there is no reason to take anything but the best unit selection from each area[HQ,Elites,Troops,FA,Hvy] and to not take such selections is "idiotic".

I realize after reading my comment how it could be taken that there is an implication that anyone involved in this thread with such a notion is an idiot. I apologize.

That is not my intention, just to convey that some people have an attitude and disdain towards people who take non cookie cutter lists for a game.

BuFFo wrote:See, this is what I am trying to desperately get used to. Half my viewers swear my games are all for fun, and the other half swear there all competitive WAAC games.

This was a hard truth for me to get used to also; for every opinion someone expresses, I try to imagine the 10 guys who feel the exact opposite way who didn't bother responding. It's an odd side effect of having such a diverse group of people from so many places and local environments discussing the same topic, I think.

BuFFo wrote: Half my viewers swear my games are all for fun, and the other half swear there all competitive WAAC games.

If that's accurate, than it probably means you're hitting a good median point.

blaktoof wrote:I realize after reading my comment how it could be taken that there is an implication that anyone involved in this thread with such a notion is an idiot. I apologize.

That is my misunderstanding, and I apologize as well!

BuFFo wrote:
Actually, I am new here on Dakka, and ot be honest, before I came here I heard from long time posters how ignorant people on here can be when compared to other forums. When I first starting posting, I didn't really see any of that, but now that this thread has reached 9 pages, I can see the snide remarks coming out of the wood works.

Welcome to Dakka. Please refer to the forum rules to acquaint yourself with them.

The next time that a well-spoken community member who plays the same army that you do politely expresses interest in your efforts, asks that to further your educational efforts to the general populace in much the same means that they do that you push the capabilities of your army and test yourself against traditional challenges to the codex....................you could NOT be derogatory, accuse them of being a WAAC gamer, accuse them of being snide, or of bringing nothing of value to your thread.

Civility will get you much further, please use it! It would be much more welcome here.

The next time that a well-spoken community member who plays the same army that you do politely expresses interest in your efforts, asks that to further your educational efforts to the general populace in much the same means that they do that you push the capabilities of your army and test yourself against traditional challenges to the codex....................you could NOT be derogatory, accuse them of being a WAAC gamer, accuse them of being snide, or of bringing nothing of value to your thread.

Yeah, my bad. I thought that donating my time by making my games public for all to see would be enough to help fellow Dark Eldar players out. How selfish of me to not give MORE!

Next time I will donate organs if that would please you!

Civility will get you much further

I am Dark Eldar, and as such, civility is a rather trivial concept fit only for you monkeighs!

It would be much more welcome here.

This thread, and my blog, get so much traffic, it is hard to keep up with all my fans! I couldn't feel more welcome here if people like you tried!

Because I like you so much, here is a Autographed picture of myself, just for you! Now don't go selling it on eBay!

The irony, for me, is that as far as I can tell from reading their posts and watching videos of them both on the internetz, Buffo and Dash have similar personalities and personal backgrounds, and would probably get along like a house on fire in real life.

This butting heads here over a difference in Toy Soldier priorities feels like the section of a super-hero team up comic where they have to fight first before becoming buddies and working together.

Anyone else notice that Buffo's heart is on the wrong side?

BuFFo wrote:
3) By reading your signature, I can tell you play to win. This is fine, and I respect that, but in my area, winning takes a back seat for fun.

My blog is for your average 40k hobbyist that wants to have fun. They want to know what units work/don't work for THEM before making any purchases.

I'm going to point out that you too, play to win. I dont see you playing to lose.

And people do have fun, playing to win. It doesnt have to take a backseat to fun.

carmachu wrote:

BuFFo wrote:
3) By reading your signature, I can tell you play to win. This is fine, and I respect that, but in my area, winning takes a back seat for fun.

My blog is for your average 40k hobbyist that wants to have fun. They want to know what units work/don't work for THEM before making any purchases.

I'm going to point out that you too, play to win. I dont see you playing to lose.

Oh, were you present when I played my games? I am so very sorry I didn't notice you, but rest assured my goal for playing 40k is for both players to have fun, and not for me to win.

And people do have fun, playing to win. It doesnt have to take a backseat to fun.

I agree, but the majority of the time, when one person is playing just to win, the other person is just forcing a smile, not having much fun at all. This is true of many of the games I have either been a part of or witnessed since I started in 1988.

Winning with grace and manners is a fine art lost on many gamers.

...Getting a bit hostile in here....

Samus_aran115 wrote:...Getting a bit hostile in here....

Really? Where?

Hey Buffo, totally awesome reports, I especially enjoy the videos. I think thread wars are disgusting, warhammer is for fun, why all the seriousness up in here? Haha that signed photo screams of utter badassness.

Your venom conversions are awesome, any chance you could PM the method of their construction to me? (And yes I did throw them my vote on Bell of Lost Souls) Keen to give it a go. The light hearted approach to just enjoying the game rather than being mental about building a power list is what makes the reports good fun btw, keep it up. Not really too sure what all this hate is about and can't be arsed reading the thread so I'll ignore it. Anyway keep posting the good stuff.


Cheers,

InventionThirteen

BuFFo wrote:

Oh, were you present when I played my games? I am so very sorry I didn't notice you, but rest assured my goal for playing 40k is for both players to have fun, and not for me to win.

So your playing to lose then?

I agree, but the majority of the time, when one person is playing just to win, the other person is just forcing a smile, not having much fun at all. This is true of many of the games I have either been a part of or witnessed since I started in 1988.

Your not playing to lose there. Your trying to win the game. Just like Dash. Just like myself. Playing to win=/=not having fun.

Its been that way since I started playing way back when too you know, in RT. If your going to start throwing down street cred there with the years.....

Winning with grace and manners is a fine art lost on many gamers.

One could say the very same about internet posts here, about grace and manners. Just a friendly reminder. I notcied, or it seems to me, when one was asked something, that seemed to be lost here.

Mannahnin wrote:The irony, for me, is that as far as I can tell from reading their posts and watching videos of them both on the internetz, Buffo and Dash have similar personalities and personal backgrounds, and would probably get along like a house on fire in real life.

This butting heads here over a difference in Toy Soldier priorities feels like the section of a super-hero team up comic where they have to fight first before becoming buddies and working together.

Great analogy

carmachu wrote:[So your playing to lose then?

Whatever you want me to do

Your not playing to lose there. Your trying to win the game. Just like Dash. Just like myself. Playing to win=/=not having fun. .

Seems like you are just the expert as to how and why I play my games.

Where do you get such magical powers!

One could say the very same about internet posts here, about grace and manners.

I agree, so if you and your buddies could quit trying to troll responses out of me (you aren't going to get the responses you fishing for), then this thread will return to its intended purpose, Battle reports!

But on the serious tip...

Any more attempts to derail this thread into anything OFF TOPIC from the Battle Reports listed here will be reported to the Moderators, who have told me to do so in case this thread gets out of hand because they knew it would, without hesitation.

Thank you

BuFFo wrote:
Seems like you are just the expert as to how and why I play my games.

Where do you get such magical powers!

*sigh* Dodging doesnt change the questions.

I agree, so if you and your buddies could quit trying to troll responses out of me (you aren't going to get the responses you fishing for), then this thread will return to its intended purpose, Battle reports!

I agree. My thread was all peaches and cream until the regualr 'grumps' came a rushing in, and now any attempt at defending myself somehow makes me look like the guilty party? How childish.

No it wasnt really. It was fine, you wanted to entertain questions. Questions were asked, specific armies were noted, then you, for a lack of a better term, became a condesending random animals behind when questioned, and your now still doing it.

So let me explain something- if you say something in the public domain, its fair game, and questions and comments get asked and said. Your not defending yourself, your acting like the childish grumps you claim came in. In fact I'd hazard you're acting worse then they, or even myself are.

If you want to dictate from a throne, post somewhere else. If you want comments and criticism, your welcome to stay. Telling one to stop trolling, instead of actually having an adult conversation, and making snide comments about civility and adult behavior, you'll go alot farther.

But I have notice the folks that whine the biggest about civility and grace, usually arent practicing it much themselves. Your last couple posts are prime examples.

Guys, there's a difference between playing to win, and creating a moster army to try and crush your opponent. Now Buffo please correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe from your battle reports that you are playing to win, and you have won almost every game. You just do not tailor your lists to be the perfect killing machine or ask your opponent to do the same with his list.