Im debating this guy about warhammer 40k stompin starwars and I used the Warhammer Lexcinum as a source and he basically said well its inaccurate and such so I was wondering if perhaps someone knew of an official source for all of it. I have my books and Codiecs but maybe a site or if anyone has a site with certain weapons specs like rate of fire of weapons that be great to
Well, the BL books give you stats which you can use to calculate weapon yields.
Troulbe is you have Adamantium, which has no "strength" or "toughness" ever given, just "hardest substance" which is useless. So you already cannot determine the effect of SW weapons on the hulls.
Secodnly the weapon yields given, and the shield outputs, require that something 0.1% of the solar mass (largest BFG ship) outputs more than 1 solar mass energy output, using EXACTLY the same energy source (plasma fusion) - which is clearly wrong.
Essentially BL makes it up, so using them as weapon sources will get you nowhere. They even admit that nothing in BL can be absolutely "true", as it is always coloured by the protagonists view of events - in essence.
If you simply use scale as the common factor, then Imperium has a massive advantage versus Star Wars, either Imperials or New Republic. Hell, both of them stuck together would likely get roflstomped.
A Star Destroyer is 1600 meters long. That barely qualifies as a Destroyer in 40k naval displacements. 40k Battleships seem to be about 15-20x the displacement of a Star Destroyer...and it seems that 40k Imperium and Star Wars Empire/New Republic have roughly similar fleet dispositions, Imperium stuff is just 15-20x larger.
Imperium doesn't seem to have much in the way of super-class ships like SSDs or Eclipse/Eclipse II stuff, but these are ships of legend in the SW canon and 2-3 "normal" Imperium capital class vessels seem to be a close match.
Lexicanum is a terrible source. Basically take your favourite movie or television show and dial up its wiki: you'll notice that what's written on that wiki will bear only passing resemblance to the movie/show you're familiar with, curiously denatured of nuance and meaning.
The best thing to do is to read the source material printed by GW. There's a lot of it, but I'm assuming you actually enjoy 40k and would like to know more about it and the perspective on it. Scribd.com is your friend...
You could probably assume 40k las weapons have a similar strength compared to the SW blasters. If you were feeling generous and didn't believe that storm trooper armor was totally useless against what appeared to be the most common weapons maybe equate the SW blasters to imperial hellguns?
40k torpedoes would definitely help them the imperium win. They are the size of Leia's ship in New Hope and according to BFG stuff ignore shields.
I have to admit that physics doesn't seem to be a powerful force in either universe. For example light sabers should technically extend forever, the lack of a focusing device on the deathstar mega laser, the force being cause by bacteria colonies (I think that's what they said in Phantom Menance) compared to hand held microwave guns (meltas), weapons sheathed in fields that disintegrate things but not themselves, hand held weapons that can tear holes in reality.
btw didn't there used to be a shrugging orcmoticon?
EmpBobo wrote:For example light sabers should technically extend forever...
I should be hanging my head in shame for remembering this.
There was an old background book printed many moons ago which addressed this issue by saying that the LS extended a gravitational field which bent the 'light' back on itself, which was then reabsorbed by its power pack, so a lightsaber was in effect a hollow tube. This meant that it should never need recharging unless it was used for continous cutting and why in some books the length of the blade could be adjusted by changing the 'gravity' point. (Which was also explained as changing the focusing point of the crystals as well)
Yes I know that that explanation does nothing to address the issue of the weight of the weapon, energy source or anything else that doesn't hold up to rational thought, but I'd thought I would just throw it in.
More accurately, the fluff does not match the game.
The fluff has concerns above and beyond the game, and those concerns are not strictly representative. That's why the common name for the background source material is 'fluff', because it's there to decorate the game rather than to provide a historically accurate accounting of the elements used in the fluff. It conveys 'colour' to the game rules much like paint provides colour to a miniature, rather than fixing a set of properties relative to a universe for purposes of simulation.
Take so-called "Movie Marines", for example. In a movie, or indeed any story, the protagonist has properties that cannot be conveyed in the way that a game element's characteristics and rules convey information about that element's location in the game. Giving them characteristic bonuses changes how they work in the game, but doesn't represent how they would behave to move the story forward, and make the action both believable and exciting.
Roleplaying games try to hybridize the elements of story-telling with those of games, but tend to fail when they try to be representative games rather than authorial games. They fail because authorial games are normative, and hence are about negotiating what should happen, and representative games are simulations of what could happen.
Not all games are representative games either, and Warhammer 40k is most definately not a representative game despite being dressed up as one. One could, for example, play it with a series of marked cylinders on an abstracted board. It's not like playing a wargame about the Battle of Waterloo because the shape of the game itself does not reflect any state of affairs beyond itself. Acknowledging this, the authors have wisely instituted many rules which function count-intuitively in representative terms, Assault Grenades being a notable example.
Warhammer 40k is a strategy game, which is to say it is a game about strategies rather than a game of representation such as a simulation, or a story. Attempting to make inferences about the states of the fictional universe welded to it are doomed to failure both from a rules standpoint and a fluff standpoint, since neither are representative.
Not much to debate, really. Star Wars has FTL travel that lets you traverse the galaxy in a matter of days or weeks - and near-instant communications between far-flung starsystems. That right there is such a massive advantage that you need go no further. It doesn't matter if there's ships that outgun a Star Destroyer if they can't go anywhere fast enough to do anything useful, presuming they've heard about being needed somewhere in the first place.
Spetulhu wrote:Not much to debate, really. Star Wars has FTL travel that lets you traverse the galaxy in a matter of days or weeks - and near-instant communications between far-flung starsystems. That right there is such a massive advantage that you need go no further. It doesn't matter if there's ships that outgun a Star Destroyer if they can't go anywhere fast enough to do anything useful, presuming they've heard about being needed somewhere in the first place.
Irrelevant, the Imperium still owns them through sheer weight of numbers. Once their home system is discovered and a crusade is called its pretty much the final curtain for the Empire/Alliance or whoever.
Actually the Imperium has Battle Barges and Apocalypse class Battle Ships those things vary in size from each other. The Undying spirit was bigger than a freaking super star destroyer.
In general, vs debates either pit two universes of completely different scale against each other (like 40k vs Babylon 5, a completely one-sided fight), or hinge on what factors you decide to consider and how you decide their technologies overlap. For example, people comparing Star Wars vs anything else usually treat the entire Galactic Republic or Empire as one focused political system, when in the stories the Republic lacked any ability to focus power and the Empire needed large portions of it's fleet to prevent systems from rebelling. Calculating specific weapon strengths depends a lot on what data you accept, and often requires treating 'neat image' as 'scientifically precise depiction of what happened'; a good example is that most estimates of SW ship weapons and shields are based on the one scene in Empire where a turbolaser destroys an asteroid.
If you like the process of reading various books and pulling bits of data, then go for it. If you want a serious debate where someone settles on a factual 'winner', don't hold your breath. There isn't a single 100% accurate web site on this sort of thing, you just read all of the source material you can find and jump in.
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AndrewC wrote:There was an old background book printed many moons ago which addressed this issue by saying that the LS extended a gravitational field which bent the 'light' back on itself, which was then reabsorbed by its power pack, so a lightsaber was in effect a hollow tube. This meant that it should never need recharging unless it was used for continous cutting and why in some books the length of the blade could be adjusted by changing the 'gravity' point. (Which was also explained as changing the focusing point of the crystals as well)
Yeah, attempts to explain 'magic' weapons tend to cause more problems than they solve. A gravity generator that can bend light back on itself like that would be a much more destructive weapon than any kind of remotely realistic man-portable laser and causes all kinds of physics questions if you look at it closely.
nosferatu1001 wrote:Well, the BL books give you stats which you can use to calculate weapon yields.
Troulbe is you have Adamantium, which has no "strength" or "toughness" ever given, just "hardest substance" which is useless. So you already cannot determine the effect of SW weapons on the hulls.
Secodnly the weapon yields given, and the shield outputs, require that something 0.1% of the solar mass (largest BFG ship) outputs more than 1 solar mass energy output, using EXACTLY the same energy source (plasma fusion) - which is clearly wrong.
Essentially BL makes it up, so using them as weapon sources will get you nowhere. They even admit that nothing in BL can be absolutely "true", as it is always coloured by the protagonists view of events - in essence.
It's the 41st millennium, and it's clearly fiction, so why couldn't it be some sort of advanced super plasma reactor thing that contains it all in a small space or something?
Trying to win against Starwars fanboys is an uphill battle esp. since they use the force to dodge / deflect everything.
40k gives you boltguns
Jar Jar gives you blue balls
odds are even the gayest 40k character you can think of has a better weapon than the "lightsabers are invincible" world of starwars
But all in all, the Imperium can swamp one location with ships, tanks, and firepower, and will probably crush SW on land. However, SW has better FTL travel and communication, and if SW decides to go on the offensive, they could probably strike swifter than the Imperium can respond. It's really not something to debate, and it all depends on the situation.
Whose attacking? Does the Astronomicon work in the Star Wars galaxy? What is the objective of each faction? What other drains on their resources are? There are far too many questions to be answered before you can give an answer.
But all in all, the Imperium can swamp one location with ships, tanks, and firepower, and will probably crush SW on land. However, SW has better FTL travel and communication, and if SW decides to go on the offensive, they could probably strike swifter than the Imperium can respond. It's really not something to debate, and it all depends on the situation.
Whose attacking? Does the Astronomicon work in the Star Wars galaxy? What is the objective of each faction? What other drains on their resources are? There are far too many questions to be answered before you can give an answer.
No, Kirk would seduce Slaanesh his/herself, and be crowned the new KING of Pleasure.
But in all honesty, yeah these pop up a lot. Mainly because cross-over can be awesome as all hell if done right, and people like to try and do it right. I'm not opposed to these threads.....they can lead to some interesint debates. It's when the debate falls into: CHARACTER X/TECHNOLOGY Y WILL KILL EVERYTHING AND YOU'RE A SHEEP IF YOU THINK OTHERWISE ER!
Then it's not so fun.
Edit: Death Star? Meet Nova Cannon. Not enough? Meet 500 Nova Cannons. Still not enough? Meet Cyclonic torpedo. Even if it destroyed a few planets....the Imperium cares WHY?
Edit: Death Star? Meet Nova Cannon. Not enough? Meet 500 Nova Cannons. Still not enough? Meet Cyclonic torpedo. Even if it destroyed a few planets....the Imperium cares WHY?
QFT. Planets mean very little to the imperium. Not to mention the death star kind of just hangs around in one place.
Edit: Death Star? Meet Nova Cannon. Not enough? Meet 500 Nova Cannons. Still not enough? Meet Cyclonic torpedo. Even if it destroyed a few planets....the Imperium cares WHY?
QFT. Planets mean very little to the imperium. Not to mention the death star kind of just hangs around in one place.
Unless if it is an Astrates Home-world or a hive world production place. or a Mechanicum world. Which is impossible to destroy.
Even if Macragge were lost, how long do you think it would have been before Terra heard about it? And besides, looking Rynn's World as an example.....The Imperium could survive the loss of any world except Terra. Be annoyed by it? Potentially. But be crushed? Unlikely.
Not to mention, in the SW background blind jumping into hyperspace is a very very BAD thing to do. As Han Solo said, you can easily end up crashing into something big and dieing a horrible horrible death if you blind jump. The SW forces would have to map their way to Terra (fighting off Imperial defenses and attacks the whole way there.....) before they could hope to jump in the Death Star (and then proceed to fight their way through Terra's defenses).
GalacticDefender - then you would have a black hole. In addition you would also be trying to move a stellar mass when you dont have inertia avoiding engines - bad times. And as they dont use black holes for power sources (plasma fusion, so "old" fusion tech by todays standards of research) that makes that point still not "true" - you cannot be consistent here: they use fusion, which places an upper limit on energy output, meaning the weapon yields given are simply impossible to achieve.
The main thing I was trying to say is: BL make things up, and dont have a clue about physics. Even more than ST / SW writers, who at least acknowledge when they are avoiding physics (ref: Q: "how does the Heisenberg Compensator work?" A: "Very well") - something BL dont knw as they never think these things through. They have even admited that no BL book is "true" - it is always esssentially hearsay...
Even if BL does make things up, the effects they show of the weapons firing are still valid, even if the words they use aren't the same as the ones we use. So saying that a plasma fusion reactor is obviously based on ancient fusion technology isn't necessarily true. Saying that the weapons yields described as false are untrue too....why? Because we've seen them used, and we've seen those yields. Somehow they managed to achieve it, even if the wording of their technology, and modern day physics says it's impossible.
So when you accept that BL makes things up you dont think that throws their representation of, and yields of, weapons ever so slightly suspect?
They are plasma fusion reactors as it is mentioned on more than one occasion. For a start it isnt AM/M, the only viable way to get 0.1% solar mass to output 1 solar mass energy.
I think that the representation of the yields of the weapons, are alright. Assuming full suspension of disbelief, and that the books are real historical records, memoirs, etc. I'd say that the yields in a general sense are not suspect.
It's like taking a layperson, having them watch a nuke go off, and asking them to describe the power. They're not going to give a PERFECT definition, but it'll be a decent one, and fairly accurate too.
nosferatu1001 wrote:The yields are ~10^9 out of whack with what ships that size, using fusion, can manage.
So, clearly 40k ships don't use fusion engines. I know it's like a religious point for some people here, but no one has yet to point to any authoritative 40k source stating that 40k ships use fusion and only fusion for power. All I've ever seen anyone put forward to 'prove' this is an offhand comment by a non-technical character and a wiki page that doesn't actually quote any GW or BL book. All of the BFG books simply refer to ships as powered by 'plasma reactors' without additional detail, they don't say 'oh yeah, these are fusion reactors'.
SW does have safe space travel in that it doesn't take them through the warp and expose them to deamons.
they can get around faster, but when they reach a planet they wish to conquor they will come up on a problem. most planets, that would be targeted anyway, have a small* space fleet. often consisting of 1-2 cruisers and up to a dozen escorts. We know for a fact that a Victory class GE cruiser is just about the same size as a IoM escort and IoM cruisers are much larger then a Star Destroyer. even if the GE outnumbered the IoM space fleet(which they don't) they would have an uphill battle as far as ship match ups.
*realitivly speaking
the distance at which navel engagements happen in both universes also gives the advantage to the IoM.
in Star Wars, battles are happening at very close range(less then 1/2 mile seperating vessals) and the ships are in visible range of each other(and with very small ships that must be very close indeed)
the IoM battles are distanced in hundreds of Kilometers. ships the size of Los Angeles can't see each other aside from their scanners. they are trading broadsides that are simply pointed in the right direction that cause hundreds of fatalities with each shot and yet a ship sustains only minor damage.
one thing to take into account is that Star Wars uses Laser based weaponry which in space would have an infinite range!!!!
taking these facts we can draw some conclusions.
The scanners and targeting computers from Star Wars are vastly inferior to the IoM. Why? because they can only target ships at a realitivly close range. this explains why they fight at such rediclously shot ranges. we could conclude that the IoM would detect the incoming ships and begin firing long before they appeared on the GE scopes.
Star Wars weaponry would, aside from torpedos, be stopped by Void Shields. Void Shields likely work by transporting dissapating the incoming projectiles energy. Energy weapons would be rendered quite ineffective as long as the void generators held.
Hull Thickness: if we give the IoM a little handicap and say the Adamentium isn't a natural substamce and is simply Steel reinforced with Carbonfibres. the IoM still wins by virtue of Hull thickness. they have hulls that are often up to 9 meters thick. Star Wars couldn't have hulls that thick and still have the crew sizes they have.
They definitely dont use M/AM technology, which was the point - the only way to get close to that power output is to use M/AM, there is literaly no way a matter-based system can get close.
They can miniaturise it effectively, yes, which is impressive. BUt the weapon yields are simply and unutterably WRONG by any objective assessment.
Quite simply put: nontechnical writers suck when trying to put physics into stories, and BL admit they make things up to make the story good. So why treat the supposed yields as "true" when you are told the ENTIRE STORY can be entirely untrue?
It's like being told you're reading a work of fiction but then taking it as entirely true that bears make and eat porridge. When every objective fact tells you that is unlikely do you carry on believing it, despite being told it is fiction?
one thing to take into account is that Star Wars uses Laser based weaponry which in space would have an infinite range!!!!
Actually, they don't always. The Old Republic uses Plasma based weaponry because ionized plasma is more effective against droids than the photon particle beams generated by other blasters.
Note: the Photon particle beams shot by the Blastech E-11 Carbine uses a mixture of laser and compressed gas for its bolt:
"In particle-beam based blasters, like the E-11 used by stormtroopers, a small amount of high-energy gas moved from the Heter valve to the chamber commonly called the XCiter. In the XCiter chamber, the gas was energized by the power pack, then passed into the actuating blaster module, which, when assisted by the components in the barrel, processed the now extremely high-energy gas into a compressed beam of intense energy particles, coupled with intense light, which generated the deadly high-energy particle beam fired from most blasters. In these blasters, the combination of superhot laser-light and a compressed bolt of intense energy particles formed the deadly bolt. "
one thing to take into account is that Star Wars uses Laser based weaponry which in space would have an infinite range!!!!
Actually, they don't always. The Old Republic uses Plasma based weaponry because ionized plasma is more effective against droids than the photon particle beams generated by other blasters.
Note: the Photon particle beams shot by the Blastech E-11 Carbine uses a mixture of laser and compressed gas for its bolt:
"In particle-beam based blasters, like the E-11 used by stormtroopers, a small amount of high-energy gas moved from the Heter valve to the chamber commonly called the XCiter. In the XCiter chamber, the gas was energized by the power pack, then passed into the actuating blaster module, which, when assisted by the components in the barrel, processed the now extremely high-energy gas into a compressed beam of intense energy particles, coupled with intense light, which generated the deadly high-energy particle beam fired from most blasters. In these blasters, the combination of superhot laser-light and a compressed bolt of intense energy particles formed the deadly bolt. "
in either case, the weapon would have, to all intents and purposes, an unlimited range in the vacuum of space.
we can still assume that the GE targeters have a very low range compared to the IoM
there is also the Psyker issue.
Sith/Jedi may have the Force, but(assuming the force=/=psychic powers and the Force works in the IoM galaxy and vice-versa for psychic powers) they are low in number compared to the amount of psykers the IoM has at their disposal.
PBSs, Space Marine Librarians, Grey Knights, Inquisitors...
the sheer number of them would take down the Jedi/Sith even assuming the power of 1 Jedi/Sith>Psyker.
The IoM and Star Wars both have ways of tracking ships using their respective method of Travel, but neither would be able to detect the other(Psykers and Jedi/Sith might be able to predict the approachs)
the GEs Intradictor cruisers would be useless(and this is a massive tactical weapon for them)
Warp Travel doesn't draw a straight line between points, but rather the time to travel is dependent on the turbulance of the warp. it can take longer to travel a few systems away then to get accross the galaxy.
this means that ANY Star Wars planet is at risk of attack. even though it could take months to years for an invasion to arrive the GE wouldn't think that it's core worlds would be vulnerable and then BOOM. soon the GE would be purely on the defensive having to fortify EVERY world it wished to keep. the IoM would have to win by attrition and that is something it is VERY good at doing.
Stormtroopers are clearly > Impierial Guardsmen, but then just about anything is > Impierial Guardsmen. "Fear not the Flashlight, Fear the 10,000 Flashlights"
Lemun Russ companies(hundreds of tanks) and Titan Legions > AT-ATs(they are just armored transports with no shield tech), AT-STs(Armored Sentinals) and Hover Tanks.
They definitely dont use M/AM technology, which was the point - the only way to get close to that power output is to use M/AM, there is literaly no way a matter-based system can get close.
They can miniaturise it effectively, yes, which is impressive. BUt the weapon yields are simply and unutterably WRONG by any objective assessment.
Quite simply put: nontechnical writers suck when trying to put physics into stories, and BL admit they make things up to make the story good. So why treat the supposed yields as "true" when you are told the ENTIRE STORY can be entirely untrue?
It's like being told you're reading a work of fiction but then taking it as entirely true that bears make and eat porridge. When every objective fact tells you that is unlikely do you carry on believing it, despite being told it is fiction?
Then how do we account for the physical damage done by the weaponry? Obviously, to us it seems impossible, but there's a potential Imperial 'plasma reactor' technology is based on a type of physics currently unknown to modern science.
Go back 500 years, and I'm willing to bet that most people then would say the things we do now are 'impossible' and couldn't actually happen. However, they obviosuly do. Just because we can't conceptualize a technology that can do what we see being done, doesn't mean it's impossible.....
And as to your example with the porridge, that's true if we're viewing it from out of universe....however, we're viewing it from in universe (or at least.....I am). Therefore, within the universe, it could very well be true that bears make and eat porridge, regardless of what evidence in our universe says.
And that is all perfectly true and equal on all sides, but in certain cases is has to be taken equally. Why say SW are poor shots? Could it not be that their counter measures are so good that they have to close to such a short range to ensure a hit? Both sides are equally valid.
With respect to the weapon calcs, please have look at the recent thread by Keezus It throw enough doubts on the stats that your position is no longer as secure as you once thought.
And that is all perfectly true and equal on all sides, but in certain cases is has to be taken equally. Why say SW are poor shots? Could it not be that their counter measures are so good that they have to close to such a short range to ensure a hit? Both sides are equally valid.
With respect to the weapon calcs, please have look at the recent thread by Kezus(sp) It throw enough doubts on the stats that your position is no longer as secure as you once thought.
Cheers
Andrew
i seriously doubt counter measures can account for the range discrepency.
even if there are major counter measures that would simply give both sides equal range. the IoM still have far larger ships with massive amounts of ordinance.
there is also the issue of morale. Civilian morale that is.
the IoM has been waging war for 10,000 years and almost every system has either been the site of war or has supported a war in some way. they are used to the horror and drain of war.
Star Wars had a war that lasted about 10 years. then there was another 30 years of war before the Empire finally collapsed. With the arrival of the Vong the Star wars universe is beginning to come to grips with the possability of endless war. the reality only applies to the out worlds though. the inner core of the GE/new republic hasn't seen war for millenia at least and certaintly outside of recorded history.
i feel that many worlds would simply surrender to the IoM if they so much as sneezed in their direction. many lay down and kowtowed to the Vong without so much as a standoff.
In this case, the difference is that with the Imperium we obviously see that something operating with a level of power far beyond what we can theoretically create today with modern science. Therefore, there has to be a way for them to do it beyond modern science.
However, at no time in SW has there ever been the slightest hint that countermeasures and electronic warfare impact range negatively. All we've seen is ships fighting withing visual range as a standard tactic. At the Battle of Endor 'point blank range' is the ships basically passing withing a kilometer at most of each other. For the Imperium, point blank range is still thousands of kilometers away. (Base to base contact in BFG)
"Alkaline" doesn't generate enegy to power my flashlight, but alkaline batteries do.
Quite simply put: nontechnical writers suck when trying to put physics into stories, and BL admit they make things up to make the story good. So why treat the supposed yields as "true" when you are told the ENTIRE STORY can be entirely untrue?
Because we see the effects of them in the story. You're reading a story where a ship blows something up, and insisting that the ship doesn't actually blow stuff up, and using as your justification that if a ship powers it's weapons in a way that it's never said to power it's weapons that it couldn't do it. It's just silly.
It's like being told you're reading a work of fiction but then taking it as entirely true that bears make and eat porridge. When every objective fact tells you that is unlikely do you carry on believing it, despite being told it is fiction?
I believe that bears eat porridge in the fictional world that Goldilocks and the Three Bears takes place in. I don't believe that Goldilocks and the Three Bears actually happened.
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Grey Templar wrote:one thing to take into account is that Star Wars uses Laser based weaponry which in space would have an infinite range!!!!
Laser-based weapons don't have infinite range in the real world. Lasers disperse over distance, just much less quickly than a regular flashlight would. Dust and gas (especially in a battle area) disrupts them further, and holding the beam steady enough to target over long distances gets much harder when you hit light-hour or longer distances.
Don't we need more information on how this conflict would take place? Is the SW galaxy just discovered by the IoM - in M40? I think this is the most reasonable way to say they would interact.
So current events for the IoM -
-Hive fleets
-Eye of Terror
-Waaghs everywhere
-Tau encroaching
-and so on
With all of this happening the IoM would be unlikely to focus a large part of its strength on a new foe. So the battles might be of similar numbers of ships/men.
To speed up the argument, I'll grant that the Empire/Rebuplic wipes out the IoM in a limited engagement. All forces lost for the IoM. Say the Empire lost 75%. Now ask yourself this - how quickly can the IoM replenish their forces? How about the Empire? Say they continue to have battles for 20 years - with the Empire winning everytime. Unless you are saying that the Empire wins without taking any losses - over 20 years the Empire would be crippled for resources/trained men. The IoM keeps chugging along.
Look at the United States Civil War. Lee unarguably was the better general - but Grant just kept running bodies at him. Lee had no answer for the North's vast advantage in numbers and resources.
Look at World War II - the German Invasion of Russia. The Russians believed they had more men that the Germans had bullets. They bled the Germans until winter even though their casualties were enormous. They just had more men and even more importantly, the will to use them.
Somtimes just having more men resources will win you a war - you don't have to be better. This argument completely ignores the actual comparison of ship vs ship, man vs man, Space Marines vs Jedi, Titans vs - oh yeah, SW has not answer for these.
BearersOfSalvation wrote:
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Grey Templar wrote:one thing to take into account is that Star Wars uses Laser based weaponry which in space would have an infinite range!!!!
Laser-based weapons don't have infinite range in the real world. Lasers disperse over distance, just much less quickly than a regular flashlight would. Dust and gas (especially in a battle area) disrupts them further, and holding the beam steady enough to target over long distances gets much harder when you hit light-hour or longer distances.
Lasers may not have an "Infinite" range, but in the term of a star system and space battles, lasers would indeed have a negligable maximum effective distance.
does anyone actually measure range for a railgun on a standard 4x6 game table?
how about a basilisk bombardment?
these weapons do have a maximum range, but it hardly ever comes into play.
even a Warlord Titan's appoc missiles have a max range. 370" to be exact, but when are you ever going to play on a board longer then 370"?
Though IoM has more psykers, IMO, jedi ans sith are stronger or more skilled. In the stories and movies, jedi and sith seem to be able to lift and throw large objects, inhuman reflexes and lightning flies from their fingers. The imperium's psykers can sometimes see the future and can't lift large objects. But they do beat them in the energy-throwing contest since psykers, in artwork at least, can project energy from their hands and face. When your face is a weapon, you are a dangerous foe.
My idea of what a war betwen 40,000 vs SW Year 1: Empire forces enter the galaxy from hyper space near the eastern fringe and are instantly encountered by Hive fleet Kraken splinter fleets thrown off corse by the Empire's hyper space jump but drive Empire forces away as the Empire have never encountered anything like this before. Death star battle stations do little against the Tyranid swarm.
Year 2 : Empire forces are driven away from the Tyranids only to encounter the Salamanders space marine chapter. The Imperials destroy the remaning Empire forces and any trace of there existance.
Year 3 : C.I.S forces enter the galaxy after a blind jump near to the Eye of terror , they battle the Imperial Guard causing many casulties to the Organics but fail to deafet Eldar forces relising that they could become a threat.
Year 4 : Republic forces weapon testing go's wrong ending with them blasting into the year 40,000 , they soon combat Tau forces on a large scale , but they soon surrender to the Tau after witinessing a Chaos attack.
Take this as a fact,using ICS stats SW ships are fairly equal to 40k ships.Using highest cannon sources(movies),40k stomps SW.
Even with ICSSW loses to the 40k because of the Chaos and Necrons.
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nosferatu1001 wrote:Yet physics makes the torpedoes improbable, both in yield and in supposed size.
And IoM only ignores physics in certain specific ways. IT still uses Fusion as a power source, vastly inferior to M/AM.
It is also implied that it taps into the warp somehow since plasma reactors don't behave as normal fusion reactors.
We have official yield from 1st edition of Space Hulk(who cares if it's old it meshes very good with vast majority of calcs) which is 560 gigatons for Hellfire torpedoes and it took 300 of those to destroy the hulk.
Then we have teraton calcs from Nemesis,Caves of Ice and Rouge Trader novels.
Grey Templar wrote:i seriously doubt counter measures can account for the range discrepency.
even if there are major counter measures that would simply give both sides equal range. the IoM still have far larger ships with massive amounts of ordinance.
And that argument I have no objection to and is persuasive. What annoys me is this we've got uber weapons and you lose argument. The figures are doubtful.
@Ivan.
As has been pointed out, those calcs have been derived the wrong way. The output has been calculated from a description with no thought as to how it got there. They all assume that the damage has been inflicted with one shot for a start!
Mr Nobody wrote:Though IoM has more psykers, IMO, jedi ans sith are stronger or more skilled. In the stories and movies, jedi and sith seem to be able to lift and throw large objects, inhuman reflexes and lightning flies from their fingers. The imperium's psykers can sometimes see the future and can't lift large objects. But they do beat them in the energy-throwing contest since psykers, in artwork at least, can project energy from their hands and face. When your face is a weapon, you are a dangerous foe.
Who says Psykers can't lift large objects?
Psychic abilities manifest themselves in different ways.
some are Telikines. they are able to move objects. if they were strong enough they could definitly lift larger objects.
some are Telipaths. they are able to project their thoughts long distances through the warp to another Telipath. these guys enable the IoM to communicate over long distances.
some are Navigators. they are able to look at the currents of the warp without going mad. they steer the ships.
some are Divinators. they are able to tell the future by reading the currents of the etherium.
and finally some can shoot lightining bolts and burn the targets mind to a crisp.
Grey Templar wrote:i seriously doubt counter measures can account for the range discrepency.
even if there are major counter measures that would simply give both sides equal range. the IoM still have far larger ships with massive amounts of ordinance.
And that argument I have no objection to and is persuasive. What annoys me is this we've got uber weapons and you lose argument. The figures are doubtful.
@Ivan.
As has been pointed out, those calcs have been derived the wrong way. The output has been calculated from a description with no thought as to how it got there. They all assume that the damage has been inflicted with one shot for a start!
Cheers
Andrew
I demand proof.
Those calcs mesh good,Connor calced them very good(but he has some flawed calcs like the Nova Cannon calc).
Besides we have official 560 gigaton calcs and it took 300 of those to destroy the Space Hulk(it still crushes Star Trek like a bug).
In Caves of Ice they cause extinction event level,we also know that Hives can extend kilometres below the ground.
They do Exterminatus vie force which requires gigatons to teratons as a minimun(that kind of firepower destroys all complex life).
Comparing one format limited predominantly to novels with mumbo jumbo vs. a universe limited by the need for visuals (SW ship to ship fighting needs coolness) is not a coherent strategy.
Besides if we really do this we go by the first forgeworld manual. It has speeds of IG vehicles and aircrafts in KM, and steel equivalent armor thickness. judging by the the British army with 1980s era anti tank weaponry would turn Landraiders and titans to paste (wehrmacht 1944 wiould do really well too). But lets not.
Thats the problem with these things. There are fanboys on all sides, including those who have tried to make sense out of things that are done purely for the rule of cool.
Comparing one format limited predominantly to novels with mumbo jumbo vs. a universe limited by the need for visuals (SW ship to ship fighting needs coolness) is not a coherent strategy.
Besides if we really do this we go by the first forgeworld manual. It has speeds of IG vehicles and aircrafts in KM, and steel equivalent armor thickness. judging by the the British army with 1980s era anti tank weaponry would turn Landraiders and titans to paste (wehrmacht 1944 wiould do really well too). But lets not.
Thats the problem with these things. There are fanboys on all sides, including those who have tried to make sense out of things that are done purely for the rule of cool.
Not to mention that Forge World is known for downplaying 40k(volume 3 and 8).
Majority of technical information comes from novels because they represent the fluff and universe in correct way.
You can also use BFG as a source of calcs.Hellfire torpedo is 610 gigatons or 560 gigatons.
Assuming that one combat round in Battlefleet Gothic is a single minute, a single weapons battery has between 600-1200 gigatons of firepower in that same amount of time. A Nova Cannon has 4800 gigatons, spread in a wide radius, with an additional 600 inflicted to the ship it hits.
Comparing one format limited predominantly to novels with mumbo jumbo vs. a universe limited by the need for visuals (SW ship to ship fighting needs coolness) is not a coherent strategy.
Besides if we really do this we go by the first forgeworld manual. It has speeds of IG vehicles and aircrafts in KM, and steel equivalent armor thickness. judging by the the British army with 1980s era anti tank weaponry would turn Landraiders and titans to paste (wehrmacht 1944 wiould do really well too). But lets not.
Thats the problem with these things. There are fanboys on all sides, including those who have tried to make sense out of things that are done purely for the rule of cool.
Not to mention that Forge World is known for downplaying 40k(volume 3 and 8).
Majority of technical information comes from novels because they represent the fluff and universe in correct way.
I don't think the concept of "technical information" exists in the 40K world.
Comparing one format limited predominantly to novels with mumbo jumbo vs. a universe limited by the need for visuals (SW ship to ship fighting needs coolness) is not a coherent strategy.
Besides if we really do this we go by the first forgeworld manual. It has speeds of IG vehicles and aircrafts in KM, and steel equivalent armor thickness. judging by the the British army with 1980s era anti tank weaponry would turn Landraiders and titans to paste (wehrmacht 1944 wiould do really well too). But lets not.
Thats the problem with these things. There are fanboys on all sides, including those who have tried to make sense out of things that are done purely for the rule of cool.
Not to mention that Forge World is known for downplaying 40k(volume 3 and 8).
Majority of technical information comes from novels because they represent the fluff and universe in correct way.
I don't think the concept of "technical information" exists in the 40K world.
The feats matter.
Plasma guns can cremate a human,that requires 400 Megajoules of energy.
Meltagun flashes a dozen cubic metres of ice,that requires 32 gigajoules of energy and that doesn't account for the energy used to move the ice from 0ËšC to 100ËšC, nor the energy used to move it from its initial temperature to 0Ëš, now the latent heat of fusion (melting) which will be pretty high also.
Then we have 19 Megathules which is presumably maximum discharge of energy per pulse.
IvanTih wrote:I demand proof.
Those calcs mesh good,Connor calced them very good(but he has some flawed calcs like the Nova Cannon calc).
Besides we have official 560 gigaton calcs and it took 300 of those to destroy the Space Hulk(it still crushes Star Trek like a bug).
In Caves of Ice they cause extinction event level,we also know that Hives can extend kilometres below the ground.
They do Exterminatus vie force which requires gigatons to teratons as a minimun(that kind of firepower destroys all complex life).
Tell you what, you go back and look at the arguments posed to you in the last discussion started by Keezus, round about page 22.
Commissar Streck? pointed out all the flaws from the books, much better than I, which have never been answered.
There are sufficient holes in everyone of the calcs put forward that they can't be taken for granted as being proof.
IvanTih wrote:I demand proof.
Those calcs mesh good,Connor calced them very good(but he has some flawed calcs like the Nova Cannon calc).
Besides we have official 560 gigaton calcs and it took 300 of those to destroy the Space Hulk(it still crushes Star Trek like a bug).
In Caves of Ice they cause extinction event level,we also know that Hives can extend kilometres below the ground.
They do Exterminatus vie force which requires gigatons to teratons as a minimun(that kind of firepower destroys all complex life).
Tell you what, you go back and look at the arguments posed to you in the last discussion started by Keezus, round about page 22.
Commissar Streck? pointed out all the flaws from the books, much better than I, which have never been answered.
There are sufficient holes in everyone of the calcs put forward that they can't be taken for granted as being proof.
Cheers
Andrew
Even then you can not ignore Hellfire calc.
Simple task, Andrew: prove it's actually been contradicted. And don't blather about the quote being "edited out n the various editions" - , that isn't sufficient to establish a contradiction.
Provide evidence that the source you refer to is an outlier. Have you done some sort of analysis of a broad range of sources to come to this conclusion ?
Explain why "age" matters in this case?
IvanTih wrote:Even then you can not ignore Hellfire calc.
Ivan, I've never denied the figure from the BFG book, it's the other ones I object to.
All things being equal, all the figures should be in the upper half of the high GT range. The huge spread of figures are whats wrong.
Cheers
Andrew
Still commiting Exterminatus via brute force requires at least gigaton to teratons to merely destroy all complex life.I agree that 40k can be inconsistent,but that's nothing like in SW(only ICS saves them from beign crushed by 40k).
Comparing one format limited predominantly to novels with mumbo jumbo vs. a universe limited by the need for visuals (SW ship to ship fighting needs coolness) is not a coherent strategy.
Besides if we really do this we go by the first forgeworld manual. It has speeds of IG vehicles and aircrafts in KM, and steel equivalent armor thickness. judging by the the British army with 1980s era anti tank weaponry would turn Landraiders and titans to paste (wehrmacht 1944 wiould do really well too). But lets not.
Thats the problem with these things. There are fanboys on all sides, including those who have tried to make sense out of things that are done purely for the rule of cool.
Not to mention that Forge World is known for downplaying 40k(volume 3 and 8).
Majority of technical information comes from novels because they represent the fluff and universe in correct way.
I don't think the concept of "technical information" exists in the 40K world.
The feats matter.
Plasma guns can cremate a human,that requires 400 Megajoules of energy.
-So can an artillery shell.
-A standard copperhead round effectively uses a plasma jet.
-plasma reach that state via the introduction of energy. yet "plasma engines" power the Iperium. Its nonsensical.
-A megathule is a measure of energy in the real world.
-villagers can plug up the intakes of falcon weaponry with...rocks.
-marines can be killed with arrows.
-an IG with a swiss army knife can killer a terminator if he's lucky.
-a guy with a knife can wound an avatar.
-aircraft in the 40k realm can be brought down by simple artillery.
Making sense of it is fun, but the discontuities are jarring and thats within the 40K milieu itself, not to mention crossover.
How many megajoules to explode an earth size planet in 1/10 of a second?
From the marine was killed with arrow I seems to recall that those were poisoned arrows or something.
Guy can kill an avatar with a knife is a game mechanic?
AndrewC wrote: All things being equal, all the figures should be in the upper half of the high GT range. The huge spread of figures are whats wrong.
IvanTih wrote: Still commiting Exterminatus via brute force requires at least gigaton to teratons to merely destroy all complex life.
And my statement above contradicts that in what way?
IvanTih wrote:I agree that 40k can be inconsistent.
But that very inconsistency should be an indicator that taking a piece of fiction as the fact upon which to base a complex maths calculation might not be the wisest thing to do.
"Just because he's a rocket scientist does not mean he's capable of wiping his arse" was something a physics teacher once told me. The brightest person in the world can make a fundamental mistake. After all, Albert Einstein did.
Cheers Ivan, I'll pick this up later.
Andrew
Automatically Appended Next Post:
IvanTih wrote:Explain why "age" matters in this case?
IvanTih wrote:From the marine was killed with arrow I seems to recall that those were poisoned arrows or something.
Guy can kill an avatar with a knife is a game mechanic?
no. Shadowpoint. Dark eldar going after an avatar with a pointy stick.
How do Valkyries and lightnings achieve orbit when they can't surpass 5x the speed of sound? (FW)
How do drop pods land without turning everything to jelly inside? (last second retrorockets, also pods landing in HH novels into buildings with no harm to crews)
I am sure SW novels are the same way. They are internally inconsistent and comparing different universes should only be on the "pew pew" level.
nosferatu1001 wrote:BoS - yet you are told that everything in your account could be a lie, intentiional or otherwise. NOTHING you "know" is definitively true.
Real-life historical sources work like that too. If you're just going to ignore everything from the background, there's not really much point in talking about the 40k background.
And none of this helps with your repeated claim that 40k uses fusion reactors, which you've suddenly backed away from.
Which is the point! You're told they make things up. All the time. Yet you choose certain made up elements and, arbitrarily, decide they are true. Not exactly valid method, is it?
Your method is 'things that they described happening didn't happen because I arbitrarily declared that a plasma reactor is a fusion reactor, but a fusion reactor can't do what they described' which doesn't strike me as at all useful for anything.
IvanTih wrote:From the marine was killed with arrow I seems to recall that those were poisoned arrows or something.
Guy can kill an avatar with a knife is a game mechanic?
no. Shadowpoint. Dark eldar going after an avatar with a pointy stick.
How do Valkyries and lightnings achieve orbit when they can't surpass 5x the speed of sound? (FW)
How do drop pods land without turning everything to jelly inside? (last second retrorockets, also pods landing in HH novels into buildings with no harm to crews)
I am sure SW novels are the same way. They are internally inconsistent and comparing different universes should only be on the "pew pew" level.
Hmm,a low end example.
Because FW is a low-end example of 40k it contradicts everything else,Space Marines act out of character in Taros Campaign and in volume 8 FW ignored ships in the orbit which could do orbital bombardment.
Then we have idiotic Vraks compaign from which nothing was gained.
Then the stupid incident where Inquisitor blows giant Tyranids creature(can't remember which) with a small explosive,but which was thrown ....can't remember the rest I'll need to reread that IA again.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
AndrewC wrote:[
Cheers Ivan, I'll pick this up later.
Andrew
After thinking about everthing I think that 40k does gigaton to teratons(low teratons),a good middle number,high end could be high teratons to low petatons(ignoring Nova Cannon calc).
Very low end as small you can push it is still megatons.
IvanTih wrote:From the marine was killed with arrow I seems to recall that those were poisoned arrows or something.
Guy can kill an avatar with a knife is a game mechanic?
no. Shadowpoint. Dark eldar going after an avatar with a pointy stick.
How do Valkyries and lightnings achieve orbit when they can't surpass 5x the speed of sound? (FW)
How do drop pods land without turning everything to jelly inside? (last second retrorockets, also pods landing in HH novels into buildings with no harm to crews)
I am sure SW novels are the same way. They are internally inconsistent and comparing different universes should only be on the "pew pew" level.
Hmm,a low end example.
Its still canon and has actual "facts" deny those facts and you deny the underlying claim that any of this can be extrapolated.
Grey Templar wrote:Lasers may not have an "Infinite" range, but in the term of a star system and space battles, lasers would indeed have a negligable maximum effective distance.
No, they're really not. At light second distances they work fine, but when you move into light minute and hour distances, you end up with 10x or more area covered by the beam, which means you get 1/10 the penetration. In realistic applications, this means you'd have to hold the laser on target for 10x as long, which is essentially impossible to do at solar system distances on a moving target. The distance between the sun and earth is 8 light minutes, so we're looking at something much smaller than the whole solar system here.
Of course, it's obvious that Star Wars doesn't use lasers, as you can watch the 'beam' move from the gun to the target with the human eye, so it's really moot.
IvanTih wrote:From the marine was killed with arrow I seems to recall that those were poisoned arrows or something.
Guy can kill an avatar with a knife is a game mechanic?
no. Shadowpoint. Dark eldar going after an avatar with a pointy stick.
How do Valkyries and lightnings achieve orbit when they can't surpass 5x the speed of sound? (FW)
How do drop pods land without turning everything to jelly inside? (last second retrorockets, also pods landing in HH novels into buildings with no harm to crews)
I am sure SW novels are the same way. They are internally inconsistent and comparing different universes should only be on the "pew pew" level.
Hmm,a low end example.
Its still canon and has actual "facts" deny those facts and you deny the underlying claim that any of this can be extrapolated.
FW is not used by majority of posters on debate forums because it contradicts everything else,a fact.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
BearersOfSalvation wrote:
Grey Templar wrote:Lasers may not have an "Infinite" range, but in the term of a star system and space battles, lasers would indeed have a negligable maximum effective distance.
No, they're really not. At light second distances they work fine, but when you move into light minute and hour distances, you end up with 10x or more area covered by the beam, which means you get 1/10 the penetration. In realistic applications, this means you'd have to hold the laser on target for 10x as long, which is essentially impossible to do at solar system distances on a moving target. The distance between the sun and earth is 8 light minutes, so we're looking at something much smaller than the whole solar system here.
Of course, it's obvious that Star Wars doesn't use lasers, as you can watch the 'beam' move from the gun to the target with the human eye, so it's really moot.
For the last time turbolasers aren't laser,they don't travel at light speed.
And only some Imperial weapons batteries are lasers. But technically, a mass driver round or some other physical projectile would have longer range than a laser. Why? Because a laser is gonna dissipate (eventually), while a solid slug? It'll just keep going, and going, and going....
And this video is quite appropriate for this discussion I think.
ChrisWWII wrote:And only some Imperial weapons batteries are lasers. But technically, a mass driver round or some other physical projectile would have longer range than a laser. Why? Because a laser is gonna dissipate (eventually), while a solid slug? It'll just keep going, and going, and going....
And this video is quite appropriate for this discussion I think.
BearersOfSalvation wrote:Of course, it's obvious that Star Wars doesn't use lasers, as you can watch the 'beam' move from the gun to the target with the human eye, so it's really moot.
For the last time turbolasers aren't laser,they don't travel at light speed.
BearersOfSalvation wrote:Of course, it's obvious that Star Wars doesn't use lasers, as you can watch the 'beam' move from the gun to the target with the human eye, so it's really moot.
For the last time turbolasers aren't laser,they don't travel at light speed.
Thanks for agreeing with me?
I agree with you.
SW calcs are one of the really diverse,ranging from low petatons to measly megatons,but they have cannon policy which states G cannon things or the things from Lucas are the highest cannon.
What about the other races in WH40k? what about the 'nids, the tau, the necron, the boyz, chaos, and dark eldar and eldar?
How would they fare against SW?
Personally I don't think the GE or the republic would stand a chance. There are too many forces in WH40k that are vying for dominance, that the entrance of people from the SW universe wouldn't change much. It's like a massive game of free-for-all.
And why has most of this thread debated space warfare? what about fighting on planets? I do recall someone posting information on WH40k vehicles, but perhaps more can be said about them? And what about the SW side of things?
I'm sorry that I'm asking so many questions but I'd really like to hear more on this topic.
I'm not much of a starwars buff, but I do recall that a lot of their weaponary is energy based, so much of their armour is built to combat this, I don't believe that a stormtrooper's armour will provide much resistance to the SM bread and butter that is the bolter
blazinpsycho&typhooni wrote:I like how everyone is so focused on the IoM.
I also like the scenario bloodreaper put forward.
What about the other races in WH40k? what about the 'nids, the tau, the necron, the boyz, chaos, and dark eldar and eldar?
How would they fare against SW?
Personally I don't think the GE or the republic would stand a chance. There are too many forces in WH40k that are vying for dominance, that the entrance of people from the SW universe wouldn't change much. It's like a massive game of free-for-all.
And why has most of this thread debated space warfare? what about fighting on planets? I do recall someone posting information on WH40k vehicles, but perhaps more can be said about them? And what about the SW side of things?
I'm sorry that I'm asking so many questions but I'd really like to hear more on this topic.
I'm not much of a starwars buff, but I do recall that a lot of their weaponary is energy based, so much of their armour is built to combat this, I don't believe that a stormtrooper's armour will provide much resistance to the SM bread and butter that is the bolter
there were several threads devoted to each 40k race, but i will break it down for you.
T'au vs SW: T'au subvert various planets untill open conflict starts. then the GE gets pwned by supierior T'au Tech.
Nids vs SW: Genestealers easily subvert many planets before the Empire knows whats coming. Hive fleets arrive. OMNOM-OMNOM
Orks vs SW: Waaaagh, stomp. orks then loot the Death Star for epic lolz.
Eldar/DE vs SW: Eldar pretty much would ignore the Empire unless they began to interfere with them. DE would sack, rape, and pillage every world and enslave the galaxy. Gungans make funny noises when poked
Chaos vs SW: Blood for the Blood God n'stuff. Skywalker falls the Slanessh and the force dies.
Land Battles definitly go to the IoM as well. the Empire's biggest land vehicle has no shielding and is only armed to the front with 4 Lascannon equvilants. The IG provides numbers for a war of attrition that the GE couldn't survive. Space Marines dominate with Bolters passing through any body armor the GE has developed.
Lemun Russ companies simply bury Stormtroopers and their equipment under barrages of Battlecannon shells. Companies typically have hundreds of Battle Tanks.
and if Leman Russ tanks can't stomp SW then Titans will. Nothing that SW has short of an Orbital bombardment will destroy Warlord titans and it would take hundreds of GE tanks to down a Warhound or Reaver.
Is this why the topic has moved on to space battles?
Is this where GE has the biggest chance of doing anything?
Like with all their superweapons, and i've read a few starwars books and there are quite a few.
And i thought out of all the races in 40k, the GE would do better against the tau. But then again I don't know much about the tau, and what they're capable of.
blazinpsycho&typhooni wrote:Is this why the topic has moved on to space battles?
Is this where GE has the biggest chance of doing anything?
Like with all their superweapons, and i've read a few starwars books and there are quite a few.
And i thought out of all the races in 40k, the GE would do better against the tau. But then again I don't know much about the tau, and what they're capable of.
Tau warships = fail.
There you go. Tau lose. Thats all. See thats what happens when you decide to write for the greater good on everything
blazinpsycho&typhooni wrote:Is this why the topic has moved on to space battles?
Is this where GE has the biggest chance of doing anything?
Like with all their superweapons, and i've read a few starwars books and there are quite a few.
And i thought out of all the races in 40k, the GE would do better against the tau. But then again I don't know much about the tau, and what they're capable of.
o yeah, all those super weapons
only 4 Super Laser weapon platforms were created. that won't be enough to defeat the IoM. they can exit the warp right next to it and then procede to destroy it with Bombardment cannons.
or they could simply detonate the Warp drives of some small escort nearby and suck the whole thing into the warp.
it would also be a simply matter for an Assassin to sneak a virus bomb onto the death star...
BoS - not backed away from plasma = fusion. They really are. More than one description has them using fusion as a reason, then there is what happens when you rupture containment (you get a hot plasma leakage, behaving exactly like one would expect it to behave)
You have also yet to postulate an alternative source: it isnt AM, nor Vacuum (aka zero point) energy, but an energy source derived directly from matter. the MOST efficient eneergy source is....fusion. So either it is fusion or a less efficient energy conversion system.
Either way the figures fail.
AS to your throwaway point: yes, you can then take this acknowledged and repeated statement of bias (i.e. the entire story can be a lie): dont take one event, assume it happened exactly that way, extrapolate some unknowns and then blindly cling to figures as being completely and 100% accurately representative of weapon and ship efficacy. To do so is obtuse, especially WHEN those calculations are shown to be many orders of magnitude away from what is possible using even perfect energy conversion (whcih they dont use, as they dont use M/AM), when the sizes of torpedoes and supposed numbers in use mean the entire ships are nothing but empty bays for torpedoes, and so on.
The ENORMOUS flaws in BL/FW/GW Codex mean that to attempt to blindly cling to figures as supposed "proof" of anything is beyond silly, and bordering on fingers in ears time.
FW is not used by majority of posters on debate forums because it contradicts everything else,a fact.
Correction, its not used by YOU. Its equally valid, it just doesn't support your claims. Old FW data supports that anything armed with a Nazi 88mm, Soviet 85mm, or US 90mm would turn Leman Russes to jelly. Aircraft are more difficult, but 1970s era Foxbats and F15s are as fast + have that neat air to air missile thing going for them.
Whenever I see IoM vs. ____ threads all i can think is "who would seriously have the will to fight them after the first few engagements?"
Also the stuff about calculating stuff confuses me.
If in our universe(X), A+B=C
and in universe Y, A+B=D
and say universe Z, A+B=E
why do people compare A and B? Why not just say D is better than E therefore universe Y wins.
FW is not used by majority of posters on debate forums because it contradicts everything else,a fact.
Correction, its not used by YOU. Its equally valid, it just doesn't support your claims. Old FW data supports that anything armed with a Nazi 88mm, Soviet 85mm, or US 90mm would turn Leman Russes to jelly. Aircraft are more difficult, but 1970s era Foxbats and F15s are as fast + have that neat air to air missile thing going for them.
Shame that all BL books disagree with you also majority of debaters don't use FW because of the flaws in it.
FW is not used by majority of posters on debate forums because it contradicts everything else,a fact.
Correction, its not used by YOU. Its equally valid, it just doesn't support your claims. Old FW data supports that anything armed with a Nazi 88mm, Soviet 85mm, or US 90mm would turn Leman Russes to jelly. Aircraft are more difficult, but 1970s era Foxbats and F15s are as fast + have that neat air to air missile thing going for them.
Shame that all BL books disagree with you also majority of debaters don't use FW because of the flaws in it.
and BL books also contradict each other quite often.
the FW books do have several things going for them.
1) they are actual GW matierial, not just approved 3rd party writings.
2) they actually give statistics where a book just gives a description.
FW is not used by majority of posters on debate forums because it contradicts everything else,a fact.
Correction, its not used by YOU. Its equally valid, it just doesn't support your claims. Old FW data supports that anything armed with a Nazi 88mm, Soviet 85mm, or US 90mm would turn Leman Russes to jelly. Aircraft are more difficult, but 1970s era Foxbats and F15s are as fast + have that neat air to air missile thing going for them.
Shame that all BL books disagree with you also majority of debaters don't use FW because of the flaws in it.
and BL books also contradict each other quite often.
the FW books do have several things going for them.
1) they are actual GW matierial, not just approved 3rd party writings.
2) they actually give statistics where a book just gives a description.
And FW has majority of fluff fails,Taros and Kastorel-Novem anyone,oh yeah in those books Imperial forces act completely out of character.
FW is not used by majority of posters on debate forums because it contradicts everything else,a fact.
Correction, its not used by YOU. Its equally valid, it just doesn't support your claims. Old FW data supports that anything armed with a Nazi 88mm, Soviet 85mm, or US 90mm would turn Leman Russes to jelly. Aircraft are more difficult, but 1970s era Foxbats and F15s are as fast + have that neat air to air missile thing going for them.
Shame that all BL books disagree with you also majority of debaters don't use FW because of the flaws in it.
and BL books also contradict each other quite often.
the FW books do have several things going for them.
1) they are actual GW matierial, not just approved 3rd party writings.
2) they actually give statistics where a book just gives a description.
And FW has majority of fluff fails,Taros and Kastorel-Novem anyone,oh yeah in those books Imperial forces act completely out of character.
Asherian Command wrote:I don't consider it canon as it has characters doing stuff that isn't even possible.
I hate it for the fluff fails,FW just has to ignore weapon ranges and the fact that Kastorel-Novem could be won by a orbital bombardment.
Same goes for Taros campaign,Marines act out of character.
By the way what do they do that isn't even possible?
Automatically Appended Next Post: One of the Gaunts' Ghosts books illustrates where the local PDF of a planet in the Sabbat Worlds has their own tank, something described as having a 150mm Hypervelocity gun, I believe.
Asherian Command wrote:I don't consider it canon as it has characters doing stuff that isn't even possible.
Like most BL books? (points at CS Goto and laughs)
Nevertheless I've made my point adn we'll just have to disagree as this side argument is a potential derail of the main topic and not especially pertinent.
Asherian Command wrote:I don't consider it canon as it has characters doing stuff that isn't even possible.
Like most BL books? (points at CS Goto and laughs)
Nevertheless I've made my point adn we'll just have to disagree as this side argument is a potential derail of the main topic and not especially pertinent.
CS GOTO is a abomination to all Black Library Unless somehow Land Raiders can transform into Razorbacks and then back into Land Raiders then I will accept that as the imperiums must useless invention of all time!
Plus I have to say that the imperium would just own the Starwars universe by one matter. fire power, and the fact that if we put physics of 40k with star wars starwars would lose. As in space you need a way to turn with engines. In 40k it is clear their ships use pivots in their engines by moving it into an angle. In starwars which way can a star destroyer go? only one way forward. They can't go backwards.
In 40k FTL was invented before the invention of Warp Drives, There are lots and lots of Engines on a Cruiser of the Imperial Navy, this includes Regular-Orbital, FTL-System to system jumping, Warp-Long Distance jumps.
Plus the Imperium at full strength is one hell of a force to deal with. Most of the universe is at war with it and it still holds.
Honestly I'm thinking that if the Star Wars Universe was to do battle with the 40K Universe more galactic governments would be attacking then jut the Republic or The Empire, if only because the 40K universe could pose a threat. The Chiss empire, a well organized and incredibly adaptable government that takes up roughly a third of the Star Wars universe would be a major assent especially if it could bring along with it some of its major contributors such as Thrawn, a military genius who took the remnants of the Empire and nearly rebuilt the entire thing all over again.
If it were individual governments vs. eachother though then the IoM would still have difficulty completely beating back any Star Wars race because as soon as it gets to the Star Wars universe it looses Warp Travel, as there is no Warp. But lets say that there is, the Maw Installation would be an amazing hiding spot for any Star Wars races as IoM ships couldn't last long there being to big for the small space made available in between all the black holes. Another place of relative safety would be The Redoubt as it's a large collection of stars that are constantly moving around creating a vary hazardous gravity anomaly. As a final countermeasure that would only be used in dire circumstance it's known that Chiss Empire and Kamino both have access to viruses that can be made to target certain genes or cells in the body, the perfect Space Marine killer.
Azure wrote:Honestly I'm thinking that if the Star Wars Universe was to do battle with the 40K Universe more galactic governments would be attacking then jut the Republic or The Empire, if only because the 40K universe could pose a threat. The Chiss empire, a well organized and incredibly adaptable government that takes up roughly a third of the Star Wars universe would be a major assent especially if it could bring along with it some of its major contributors such as Thrawn, a military genius who took the remnants of the Empire and nearly rebuilt the entire thing all over again.
If it were individual governments vs. eachother though then the IoM would still have difficulty completely beating back any Star Wars race because as soon as it gets to the Star Wars universe it looses Warp Travel, as there is no Warp. But lets say that there is, the Maw Installation would be an amazing hiding spot for any Star Wars races as IoM ships couldn't last long there being to big for the small space made available in between all the black holes. Another place of relative safety would be The Redoubt as it's a large collection of stars that are constantly moving around creating a vary hazardous gravity anomaly. As a final countermeasure that would only be used in dire circumstance it's known that Chiss Empire and Kamino both have access to viruses that can be made to target certain genes or cells in the body, the perfect Space Marine killer.
Uhh doesn't that mean that the imperium would be better than ever as warp drives would make them faster?
And plasma-blaster = lasgun
Imperium of man ships can devastate them so badly.
The Imperium would just own sorry. But your points have already been said but sadly they do not work.
Azure wrote:Honestly I'm thinking that if the Star Wars Universe was to do battle with the 40K Universe more galactic governments would be attacking then jut the Republic or The Empire, if only because the 40K universe could pose a threat. The Chiss empire, a well organized and incredibly adaptable government that takes up roughly a third of the Star Wars universe would be a major assent especially if it could bring along with it some of its major contributors such as Thrawn, a military genius who took the remnants of the Empire and nearly rebuilt the entire thing all over again.
If it were individual governments vs. eachother though then the IoM would still have difficulty completely beating back any Star Wars race because as soon as it gets to the Star Wars universe it looses Warp Travel, as there is no Warp. But lets say that there is, the Maw Installation would be an amazing hiding spot for any Star Wars races as IoM ships couldn't last long there being to big for the small space made available in between all the black holes. Another place of relative safety would be The Redoubt as it's a large collection of stars that are constantly moving around creating a vary hazardous gravity anomaly. As a final countermeasure that would only be used in dire circumstance it's known that Chiss Empire and Kamino both have access to viruses that can be made to target certain genes or cells in the body, the perfect Space Marine killer.
Uhh doesn't that mean that the imperium would be better than ever as warp drives would make them faster?
And plasma-blaster = lasgun
Imperium of man ships can devastate them so badly.
The Imperium would just own sorry. But your points have already been said but sadly they do not work.
I can't help but feel you quoted the wrong person as I'm having trouble lining up your counter arguments to my points, can you explain them a bit further?
Azure wrote:Honestly I'm thinking that if the Star Wars Universe was to do battle with the 40K Universe more galactic governments would be attacking then jut the Republic or The Empire, if only because the 40K universe could pose a threat. The Chiss empire, a well organized and incredibly adaptable government that takes up roughly a third of the Star Wars universe would be a major assent especially if it could bring along with it some of its major contributors such as Thrawn, a military genius who took the remnants of the Empire and nearly rebuilt the entire thing all over again.
If it were individual governments vs. eachother though then the IoM would still have difficulty completely beating back any Star Wars race because as soon as it gets to the Star Wars universe it looses Warp Travel, as there is no Warp. But lets say that there is, the Maw Installation would be an amazing hiding spot for any Star Wars races as IoM ships couldn't last long there being to big for the small space made available in between all the black holes. Another place of relative safety would be The Redoubt as it's a large collection of stars that are constantly moving around creating a vary hazardous gravity anomaly. As a final countermeasure that would only be used in dire circumstance it's known that Chiss Empire and Kamino both have access to viruses that can be made to target certain genes or cells in the body, the perfect Space Marine killer.
Uhh doesn't that mean that the imperium would be better than ever as warp drives would make them faster?
And plasma-blaster = lasgun
Imperium of man ships can devastate them so badly.
The Imperium would just own sorry. But your points have already been said but sadly they do not work.
I can't help but feel you quoted the wrong person as I'm having trouble lining up your counter arguments to my points, can you explain them a bit further?
Well thing is the Imperium would not lose the warp travel. As the Warp Is everywhere and a counteragruement would be that the Imperium of Man would actually benefit as they no-longer had to deal with the Perils of the warp. meaning that the Pyskers would be 50x more powerful. And not only that but the life Eater virus makes Kamino and Chiss Empire's viruses look like baking powder. Let us not forget that they have fully sealed suits called power armor. In the horus hersey books they only reason why everyone the planet died was because it was the old types of armor. mk3 is known for that but mk4, mk5 and mk6 and mk7 improved on that and no longer suffers from this.
Not only that but Terminator Armor is even more deadly than the hersey.
The Imperium's Weaponry is devastating. And not only that but we are talking about manevaurability of ships, and the imperium actually wins as the Star Wars ships can only go one direction straight using 40k physics believe it or not if you have engines only on one side you will move away from that side. The Star Wars universe has alot of flaws that george lucas ignored like the fact that lasers meeting at a certain point is just large amounts of light going through each other. But apart from that the Star Wars universe would be very difficult foe to deal with.
But the Imperium of Man has three things the Star Wars universe does not. Extermiantus, Pyskers, and Titans.
Pyskers would just manipulate the Star Wars forces to kill each other then they would come in to kill them all.
Exterminatus yeah imagine a giant ship with almost impentrable shields and armor firing down upon your home planet with novacannons that can go through crusts like as if it was paper!
Titans have been noted for taking entire planets by themselves!
Sources
http://warhammer40k.wikia.com/wiki/Titan http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Power_Armour http://battlefleet-gothic.wikia.com/wiki/Battlefleet_Gothic_Wiki http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Virus_bomb http://warhammer40k.wikia.com/wiki/Power_Armour http://warhammer40k.wikia.com/wiki/Psyker
Automatically Appended Next Post: Wow I feel so ignored
a) The Chiss do not cover a 1/3 of the galaxy by far. The Unknown Regions cover a 1/3 yes, but that's not the entire Chiss Empire by far. More importantly, Thrawn is dead. His clones are dead. He's gone, and not every Chiss is a strategic genius like him. The Chiss are a relatively minor power compared to the Galactic Alliance, Empire or Republic, New and Old.
b) Do you think that the IoM hasn't DEALT with bio warfare before? You're speaking as if a virus will wipe out enemies left and right with no problem....but there's a simple answer. Power Armor is fully sealed. Guardsmen can be issued rebreathers. Biowarfare isn't an end all be all, and won't be that much of a threat at all. Remember, the Imperium itself uses biowarfare in certain Exterminatus operations.
c) What evidence do you have that the Warp doesn't exist in the SW Galaxy? If you claim that, then hyperspace doesn't exist in the Milky Way, so both sides are trapped, but that defeats the purpose of this debate, so I'm assuming both sides technology will WORK at the very least.
d) As for the Maw and other things....what? An ISD can get in and out of the Maw, and smaller craft can easily navigate stars. Imperial destroyers and escorts are the same size as an ISD, and I see no reason why fighters, bombers, and assault boats to navigate these kind of hazards if SW craft of a similiar size can.
Now, I also have to ask....why would the IoM and the GE even fight tbh? Both are very humanocentric. Both hate aliens. I'd imagine even if they don't merge, they have enough common ground to avoid fighting and focus on fighting aliens and other threats to their shared humanity instead.
Sincerest apologies for the late reply. I shall try to address each point in a hopefully sufficiently substantive manner to make up for my absence.
For Warp travel, if you can please find for me a supported source that says it is in fact everywhere I'll be more willing to accept its presence but if I recall correctly, and bere in mind I may very well not, I believe that 40k fluff has it existing only in the one galaxy, but I will concede for the point of comparison that it could exist in the Star Wars universe. Along with this brief tangent I fail to see how removal of Warp peril increases Psyker power, if I am missing a large part of their back story that indicates this I would love to see it. That isn't supposed to sound sarcastic but I'm sure it comes across like that. >...>
As for IoM ships being better then Star Wars...I think it depends on what you're looking at. They have much better firepower but that means nothing as their travel is horrendously erratic taking anywhere from negative days to centuries to arrive somewhere.
I'm not sure what sort of material Power Armor is made of but I'm going to say that is is cut-able with a lightsaber but still able to take blaster rounds point blank. Assuming this then a combination of Fizz type nanobots coupled with a gene specific virus could still take out marines, though it's unarguable that this would be very difficult to do.
The exterminatus thing honestly seems like it'd take far to long to be used effectively when compaired to a Death Star which with the fire of a single laser can take out an entire planet instantaneously, and it Does have hyper drives installed so it could move around. Though I highly doubt that Death Stars would still be used in comparison to Dark Saber type emplacements where it's just the turbo laser emplacement without all that extra room for troops and staff.
Titans have no equivalent because they have no need for them in Star Wars, but again, they have to get there somehow and I doubt the effectiveness of Warp Travel as a reliable thing.
Psykers, I'd argue are just force users who need to worry about daemons.
In response to the following user, yes Thrawn is dead but I'm picking a part of the time line where he's still alive and fine Honestly I'd be willing to contend their importance as they have held a stable government through the whole Old Republic, Empire, New Republic, and Galactic Alliance era, it's just that authors of various books never focus on them so they seem off in the dark.
In no way do I assume an absence of prevalent Bio-weaponry in 40K but only Space Marines are in sealed armor and some viruses need only skin contact so the IG are still screwed over, even with the breathers.
Onto the Maw, I'm not entirely sure how Navigators use technology in the 40K world but unless they have the Warp-Web-Way don't they more or less flounder about relatively lost? Assuming that they have alternative advanced guidance systems then yes, things like the Maw and Redoubt would be not so dangerous but merely take eternity to get through.
Another thought to arbitrarily throw out there though is the presence of Trade Federation and Techno Union esque droids who are effectively the Star Wars version of the IG, but without all the down falls that come with being human. We know that they can be mass produced and with orbital guidance can be very deadly. Using these droids, I think it would be possible to match the IoM in a war of attrition.
Azure wrote:Sincerest apologies for the late reply. I shall try to address each point in a hopefully sufficiently substantive manner to make up for my absence.
For Warp travel, if you can please find for me a supported source that says it is in fact everywhere I'll be more willing to accept its presence but if I recall correctly, and bere in mind I may very well not, I believe that 40k fluff has it existing only in the one galaxy, but I will concede for the point of comparison that it could exist in the Star Wars universe. Along with this brief tangent I fail to see how removal of Warp peril increases Psyker power, if I am missing a large part of their back story that indicates this I would love to see it. That isn't supposed to sound sarcastic but I'm sure it comes across like that. >...>
As for IoM ships being better then Star Wars...I think it depends on what you're looking at. They have much better firepower but that means nothing as their travel is horrendously erratic taking anywhere from negative days to centuries to arrive somewhere.
I'm not sure what sort of material Power Armor is made of but I'm going to say that is is cut-able with a lightsaber but still able to take blaster rounds point blank. Assuming this then a combination of Fizz type nanobots coupled with a gene specific virus could still take out marines, though it's unarguable that this would be very difficult to do.
The exterminatus thing honestly seems like it'd take far to long to be used effectively when compaired to a Death Star which with the fire of a single laser can take out an entire planet instantaneously, and it Does have hyper drives installed so it could move around. Though I highly doubt that Death Stars would still be used in comparison to Dark Saber type emplacements where it's just the turbo laser emplacement without all that extra room for troops and staff.
Titans have no equivalent because they have no need for them in Star Wars, but again, they have to get there somehow and I doubt the effectiveness of Warp Travel as a reliable thing.
Psykers, I'd argue are just force users who need to worry about daemons.
In response to the following user, yes Thrawn is dead but I'm picking a part of the time line where he's still alive and fine Honestly I'd be willing to contend their importance as they have held a stable government through the whole Old Republic, Empire, New Republic, and Galactic Alliance era, it's just that authors of various books never focus on them so they seem off in the dark.
In no way do I assume an absence of prevalent Bio-weaponry in 40K but only Space Marines are in sealed armor and some viruses need only skin contact so the IG are still screwed over, even with the breathers.
Onto the Maw, I'm not entirely sure how Navigators use technology in the 40K world but unless they have the Warp-Web-Way don't they more or less flounder about relatively lost? Assuming that they have alternative advanced guidance systems then yes, things like the Maw and Redoubt would be not so dangerous but merely take eternity to get through.
Another thought to arbitrarily throw out there though is the presence of Trade Federation and Techno Union esque droids who are effectively the Star Wars version of the IG, but without all the down falls that come with being human. We know that they can be mass produced and with orbital guidance can be very deadly. Using these droids, I think it would be possible to match the IoM in a war of attrition.
Alright here is a counterexample. 1. The Imperium of man's exterminatus only takes a few minutes. And Power Armor is made out of a type steel down to the very nanometer. The imperium of man has thought about it. The Life eater virus dropped on the planet below would destory it. 2. Titans are delivered from Imperial Drop Cruisers that literally drop it from orbit. 3. They Have FTL even without the use of the warp it just takes longer like 3 months longer. 4. Imperial weapons would blast through the Death Star like paper. As They would throw a single Imperial Navy Grand Cruiser and game over for the Death Star. 5. Imperial guard have fully enclosed armor. They are never described, but remember karskins wear fully enclosed armor. 6. Skitari + titan legions = game over for land battles. 7. Boarding torpadoes filled with terminators and teleporter homers = space battle lost 8. Superior armor on ships of the imperium can ward off alot. 9. Thousands of cobra fighters which are as big as Star Destoryers would annihilate the GE's forces. 10. With aboustely no warp daemons to worry about that means the warp is safe to travel. 11. 1 Person Creed. would beat that other fellow 12. Imperial Leaders are tactical geniuses. 13. Black Templars would assualt and destory hundreds of thousands of people. As they have 5,000 Space Marines 14. Storm Crusaders would come in and finish the job. As they have 3,000 space marines 15. Then the other 1 million Other Space Marines. 16. Oh that didn't work lets send in the Apocalypse Class Battle Ship in that has been noted at destroying entire space platforms. With One freaking shot. 17. With we are allowed to bring back other tech. Then met the Black Stone Fortresses. 18. I can keep going. Angry Marines 19. Black Ships. Good Bye Jedi. 20. Power Swords 21. Power Fists 22. Melta Cannon molts down the AT-AT and the droids 23. Bolters + Lasguns = One thousand dead robots. 24. The Imperium learns from its battles they are not some stupid Tactical group. The Imperuim would develop certain ammo to counter the robots. Plus with the invention of the AIs The imperium would go into a mad rage and start killing hundreds of thousands of planets. 25. There is only one Death Star. 26. The Imperium of man has 200,000 Active Fleets. Game Over. 27. Imperial commanders are quite smart compared to the CHARGE attudie of the Federation.
Warp is assumed to be in both universes for the purposes of the debate,hence the Hyperdrive works in 40k universe.
Warp drive crosses 10k ly in 10-40 days(Imperial Guard codex 2nd edition).
Just a second, don't most Imperium vehicles on land anyway still run on like, desil. Hell dreads have smoke stacks. I find the technology quoted in most GW based material so misquoted and erratic that you can't even compare them to each other. If i must choose though, Necrons eat SW. I can see a Jedi standing there panting, and hearing something. Turning around he sees all the Warriors he chopped up standing up again, and say "gak"
doubled wrote:Just a second, don't most Imperium vehicles on land anyway still run on like, desil. Hell dreads have smoke stacks. I find the technology quoted in most GW based material so misquoted and erratic that you can't even compare them to each other. If i must choose though, Necrons eat SW. I can see a Jedi standing there panting, and hearing something. Turning around he sees all the Warriors he chopped up standing up again, and say "gak"
No they do not run on a gas. That is a myth. It just a fusion of materials that make it recycleable.
doubled wrote:Just a second, don't most Imperium vehicles on land anyway still run on like, desil. Hell dreads have smoke stacks. I find the technology quoted in most GW based material so misquoted and erratic that you can't even compare them to each other. If i must choose though, Necrons eat SW. I can see a Jedi standing there panting, and hearing something. Turning around he sees all the Warriors he chopped up standing up again, and say "gak"
They run on almost every usable fuel(vehicles).
Dreadnoughts use miniature plasma reactors,samo goes for Power Armor and Plasma Weapons.
Also the Space Marine Chapters would probaly combine into one of the most deadliest assaults ever and the Empire would be screwed. Lead by none other than Tactical Genius.... Wait for it...... Tushan and Lord Commander Dante and Logan Grimnar and Calgar.
Asherian Command wrote:
Alright here is a counterexample.
1. The Imperium of man's exterminatus only takes a few minutes. And Power Armor is made out of a type steel down to the very nanometer. The imperium of man has thought about it. The Life eater virus dropped on the planet below would destory it.
If it does only take a few minutes to be dropped then yes it has a great deal of effectiveness. I'm not sure I understand you're Power Armor statement though so let me attempt to get your meaning. It is so solidly reinforced that anything larger then Nanoscopic cannot permeate it, yes?
2. Titans are delivered from Imperial Drop Cruisers that literally drop it from orbit.
I wasn't asking on how they were delivered to the planet itself, though this is helpful, but rather how the ship that dropped said Mega Drop Pods was getting there, the Warp seems to be a bad way to travel and I just wouldn't count on the ship arriving when it needed to.
3. They Have FTL even without the use of the warp it just takes longer like 3 months longer.
Ah! This is very helpful. A great boon to the IoM but such speed could only inhibit them greatly I think, being to late for nearly any battle.
4. Imperial weapons would blast through the Death Star like paper. As They would throw a single Imperial Navy Grand Cruiser and game over for the Death Star.
The Death Star was a small planet made of nothing but metal, if the Imperium has weapons that literally go through planets then why the hell do they have any problems in the normal fluff....I mean with Anything.
5. Imperial guard have fully enclosed armor. They are never described, but remember karskins wear fully enclosed armor.
I'm looking at models who seem to always have open masks for my argument, how rip-able are these garments though?
6. Skitari + titan legions = game over for land battles.
Again with the timing thing, yes Titans are badass but if it never is on time it's worthless.
7. Boarding torpadoes filled with terminators and teleporter homers = space battle lost
Electromagnetic Plus I think would mess with Termies when their electronic bits don't work.
8. Superior armor on ships of the imperium can ward off alot.
Ok, that's a fair assessment.
9. Thousands of cobra fighters which are as big as Star Destoryers would annihilate the GE's forces.
Are they as slow as well? If so then can be avoided, if not then without a gravity well every ship could just Hyperspace out of the battle using a series of small jumps which I don't think the IoM can track.
10. With aboustely no warp daemons to worry about that means the warp is safe to travel.
Again, this is fair. But it is still unpredictable.
11. 1 Person Creed. would beat that other fellow
Creed I highly doubt has the tactical knowledge of Thrawn but! I've not read anything featuring him.
12. Imperial Leaders are tactical geniuses.
I would need a solid comparison but in terms of living, for the IG to survive to a higher rank validates some tact or luck and SM are just long lived so that would also make sense.
13. Black Templars would assualt and destory hundreds of thousands of people. As they have 5,000 Space Marines
5,000 very spread out Marines. Again though, timing thing I think is going to be the biggest bite in the neck for IoM 14. Storm Crusaders would come in and finish the job. As they have 3,000 space marines
15. Then the other 1 million Other Space Marines.
16. Oh that didn't work lets send in the Apocalypse Class Battle Ship in that has been noted at destroying entire space platforms. With One freaking shot.
Maneuverability on both of those would need to be good to ensure its effectiveness. Otherwise it could be avoided.
17. With we are allowed to bring back other tech. Then met the Black Stone Fortresses.
Those are controlled by Chaos atm are they not?
18. I can keep going. Angry Marines
ALWAYS ANGRY, ALL THE TIME!
19. Black Ships. Good Bye Jedi.
Do they target force users? Serious question.
20. Power Swords
21. Power Fists
I think these two are abit to close combat oriented to be as deadly as they should be.
22. Melta Cannon molts down the AT-AT and the droids
AT-AT are ineffective, melt the damn things down. Droids would pose to many targets however and I believe that the cannons would eventually run out of ammo before the droid numbers ran out.
23. Bolters + Lasguns = One thousand dead robots.
Only 99,000 left 24. The Imperium learns from its battles they are not some stupid Tactical group. The Imperuim would develop certain ammo to counter the robots. Plus with the invention of the AIs The imperium would go into a mad rage and start killing hundreds of thousands of planets.
One wouldn't need special ammo to counter the droids I don't think, and both forces should be learning from battles. But the IoM would have a longer lag time between reports. Not sure about the whole AI thing though >..>
25. There is only one Death Star.
3 Actually, First then the half finished second then the proto-type model that was left in the Maw. Let's also not forget the Suncrusher which does just what it's name implies, wipse out entire solar systems at a time.
26. The Imperium of man has 200,000 Active Fleets. Game Over.
Sizable fleets that can be rallied quickly and accurately though?
27. Imperial commanders are quite smart compared to the CHARGE attudie of the Federation.
Asherian Command wrote:Also the Space Marine Chapters would probaly combine into one of the most deadliest assaults ever and the Empire would be screwed. Lead by none other than Tactical Genius.... Wait for it...... Tushan and Lord Commander Dante and Logan Grimnar and Calgar.
They also require the support of the Imperial Guard,Marine's task is to launch quick strikes and eliminate leadership,not fighting extended campaings.
Azure you have never heard of CREEEEEEEEEEDDDDDDDDDDDDDD!!!!!!!
He is the greatest Tactican the imperium has ever known.
Plus Black Stone Fortress were known for being bigger than moons....
Also Ever since Warp Drives are enabled that means that they can respond to everything quickly.
Alrighty the 1,000 go deal is that 1,000 guardsmen vs 1,000 droids.... hmmm Same Weapons almost identical armor but the imperium could just send in lots of aircraft to support the guardsmen. And also considering that the imperium is well known for excuting plans fairly quickly but their battles take years to do because the scale of the wars.
The Imperium's cobras are as fast if not faster than Eldar fighters. Thats pretty damn fast. And Cobras are basically fighters and are the size of a Star Destroyer and they are equipped with lances. Lots and Lots of lances.
The Imperiums FTLs are pretty good by themselves. But ever since the Imperium has warp capability the GE is screwed.
The Death Stars are screwed against the combined efforts of one fleet. The GE could barely handle that many ships and that many armies at the same time.
Azure wrote:Sincerest apologies for the late reply. I shall try to address each point in a hopefully sufficiently substantive manner to make up for my absence.
1) For Warp travel, if you can please find for me a supported source that says it is in fact everywhere I'll be more willing to accept its presence but if I recall correctly, and bere in mind I may very well not, I believe that 40k fluff has it existing only in the one galaxy, but I will concede for the point of comparison that it could exist in the Star Wars universe. Along with this brief tangent I fail to see how removal of Warp peril increases Psyker power, if I am missing a large part of their back story that indicates this I would love to see it. That isn't supposed to sound sarcastic but I'm sure it comes across like that. >...>
2) As for IoM ships being better then Star Wars...I think it depends on what you're looking at. They have much better firepower but that means nothing as their travel is horrendously erratic taking anywhere from negative days to centuries to arrive somewhere.
3) I'm not sure what sort of material Power Armor is made of but I'm going to say that is is cut-able with a lightsaber but still able to take blaster rounds point blank. Assuming this then a combination of Fizz type nanobots coupled with a gene specific virus could still take out marines, though it's unarguable that this would be very difficult to do.
4) The exterminatus thing honestly seems like it'd take far to long to be used effectively when compaired to a Death Star which with the fire of a single laser can take out an entire planet instantaneously, and it Does have hyper drives installed so it could move around. Though I highly doubt that Death Stars would still be used in comparison to Dark Saber type emplacements where it's just the turbo laser emplacement without all that extra room for troops and staff.
5) Titans have no equivalent because they have no need for them in Star Wars, but again, they have to get there somehow and I doubt the effectiveness of Warp Travel as a reliable thing.
6) Psykers, I'd argue are just force users who need to worry about daemons.
In response to the following user, yes Thrawn is dead but I'm picking a part of the time line where he's still alive and fine Honestly I'd be willing to contend their importance as they have held a stable government through the whole Old Republic, Empire, New Republic, and Galactic Alliance era, it's just that authors of various books never focus on them so they seem off in the dark.
7) In no way do I assume an absence of prevalent Bio-weaponry in 40K but only Space Marines are in sealed armor and some viruses need only skin contact so the IG are still screwed over, even with the breathers.
8) Onto the Maw, I'm not entirely sure how Navigators use technology in the 40K world but unless they have the Warp-Web-Way don't they more or less flounder about relatively lost? Assuming that they have alternative advanced guidance systems then yes, things like the Maw and Redoubt would be not so dangerous but merely take eternity to get through.
9) Another thought to arbitrarily throw out there though is the presence of Trade Federation and Techno Union esque droids who are effectively the Star Wars version of the IG, but without all the down falls that come with being human. We know that they can be mass produced and with orbital guidance can be very deadly. Using these droids, I think it would be possible to match the IoM in a war of attrition.
breaking it down for you
1) the Warp is an alternate and parallel dimension. Parallel dimensions can access each other from any point in either dimension. "A long time ago, in a Galaxy far-far away" means that the Star Wars galaxy is in the same universe as our own. and since 40k is just our Galaxy 39,000 years from now...
2) having a slower method of space travel doesn't really mean much when your ships are bigger and more powerful and you could pop up anywhere. Hyperspace travel is still within "real space" and is limited by the presence of physical objects. Warp Travel has no such limitations as they simply warp out in one place and warp back in in another. the GE or Republic would have no idea where the IoM fleets would appear. they may get intelligence that a fleet is leaving for a certain location, but it really doesn't do them any good. the fleet could arrive before it left(imagine that surprise ), it could arrive in a month, it could be a hundred years. the randomness is precisely what makes the IoM so deadly. they have found out how to work around the randomness, but the GE or New Republic wouldn't have a clue.
3) Lightsabres might not be able to cut through PA. not much is known about Ceramite except that it has zero heat conduction and is incredibly strong. since Plasma goes right through PA i would say that a Lightsabre would go right through it, but a Jedi/Sith would have a tough time. You can't deflect Bolt rounds as they would simply explode, covering the unlucky Jedi in shrapnel. individually, not lethal but multiple rounds would begin to take their toll and if that round was a Hellfire round it would be game over(you would end up coated in Mutagenic Acid) there would also be very few Jedi/Sith to counter the 1 million Space Marines. and if a Librarian was around they would begin a mind duel and then the Marines just pour fire down onto the defenseless Force user.
4) so the deathstar can KO a planet. there wasn't more then 3-4 platforms carrying a Turbolaser that big. the IoM can wipe out a planet with any ship that has Torpedo bays. a small fleet of 3-6 ships can destroy a world in minutes. a single ship with a single torpedo launce would take longer, but not any more then a couple of days and any virus that got onto any transports trying to escape would doom the occupants. the beauty of Life Eater Viruses is that it feeds on all life not just Mega-fauna so even if a crew had enclosed jump suits the virus would survive on Bacteria and other viruses. if any of the virus survived in some forgotten corner of the ship the survivors might unwittingly bring it to another planet...
5) Warp Travel may be slow, but once a Titan legion and other ground forces get to their destination it's game over.
6) if we equate Force users to Psykers then the IoM would simply be drawing the gaze of Chaos to all those defenseless Jedi/Sith. instant posession especially for the Sith.
7) yes, the IG gets fethed by Biowarfare, but it isn't anything new to the IoM.
8) the GE may be able to hide for a time in the Maw installation, but it's just a matter of time. the IoM is stubborn, tenatious, and can afford to wait.
9) Droid Armys could potentially match the IG in wars of attrition, but they are vulnerable to communication jamming, loss of leadership and production centers. something the Adeptus Astartes are very good at hitting. the IoM does use/have access to Atomic weaponry. it wouldn't take the Adeptus of Mars long to use the EMP effects from Nuclear blasts to simply begin shutting a droid army down. they might also be able to rig up a computer virus to destroy the droids.
Asherian Command wrote:Azure you have never heard of CREEEEEEEEEEDDDDDDDDDDDDDD!!!!!!!
He is the greatest Tactican the imperium has ever known.
Plus Black Stone Fortress were known for being bigger than moons....
Also Ever since Warp Drives are enabled that means that they can respond to everything quickly.
Alrighty the 1,000 go deal is that 1,000 guardsmen vs 1,000 droids.... hmmm Same Weapons almost identical armor but the imperium could just send in lots of aircraft to support the guardsmen. And also considering that the imperium is well known for excuting plans fairly quickly but their battles take years to do because the scale of the wars.
The Imperium's cobras are as fast if not faster than Eldar fighters. Thats pretty damn fast. And Cobras are basically fighters and are the size of a Star Destroyer and they are equipped with lances. Lots and Lots of lances.
The Imperiums FTLs are pretty good by themselves. But ever since the Imperium has warp capability the GE is screwed.
The Death Stars are screwed against the combined efforts of one fleet. The GE could barely handle that many ships and that many armies at the same time.
I've heard of Creed, just never read anything to validate his genius (or lack there of). I've read about the Blackstone fortresses to, but if Chaos has them then they may as well not even exist X( 3 Months time on a Warp Drive is far from quick when an Imperial fleet can cover a similar distance in at least half that. As for droids, don't forget they also get Hailfire, Spider and a slough of other types of droids as support for them. Those should even up things a tad.
Concerning lances, would they be repelled by a Star Destroyers shields, as they a a beam on concentrated Warp, yes? And I still don't think that you're getting, the warp would not be a better alternative as it could end up taking the ships Centuries to get to a battle that's happening now.
Azure wrote:
Concerning lances, would they be repelled by a Star Destroyers shields, as they a a beam on concentrated Warp, yes? And I still don't think that you're getting, the warp would not be a better alternative as it could end up taking the ships Centuries to get to a battle that's happening now.
Lances are not concentrations of warp. That is a nova cannon and they go right through shields. But they are pretty inaccurate.
Sorry but the last part made me facepalm
Azure wrote:
Concerning lances, would they be repelled by a Star Destroyers shields, as they a a beam on concentrated Warp, yes? And I still don't think that you're getting, the warp would not be a better alternative as it could end up taking the ships Centuries to get to a battle that's happening now.
Lances are not concentrations of warp. That is a nova cannon and they go right through shields. But they are pretty inaccurate.
Sorry but the last part made me facepalm
Oh ok, that does make Lances seem like abit more a threat. I don't understand why though? Warp travel is terribly unpredictable as has been evidenced multiple times before in the official fluff and warp drives take 3 months, using a previous poster's data here, to travel a significant distance.
Azure wrote:
Concerning lances, would they be repelled by a Star Destroyers shields, as they a a beam on concentrated Warp, yes? And I still don't think that you're getting, the warp would not be a better alternative as it could end up taking the ships Centuries to get to a battle that's happening now.
Lances are not concentrations of warp. That is a nova cannon and they go right through shields. But they are pretty inaccurate.
Sorry but the last part made me facepalm
Oh ok, that does make Lances seem like abit more a threat. I don't understand why though? Warp travel is terribly unpredictable as has been evidenced multiple times before in the official fluff and warp drives take 3 months, using a previous poster's data here, to travel a significant distance.
Actually not 3 months just regularly ftls.
But Warp drive is so unpredictable it could be 1 minute to 500 years. But if it reaches more than just years it is incredibly rare. Like seeing every single Space Marine in the same place at the same time.
Remember the warp is unpredictable but it is not like everytime you jump through the warp you will be stuck in there for thousands of year.s
Asherian Command wrote:Azure you have never heard of CREEEEEEEEEEDDDDDDDDDDDDDD!!!!!!!
He is the greatest Tactican the imperium has ever known.
Plus Black Stone Fortress were known for being bigger than moons....
Also Ever since Warp Drives are enabled that means that they can respond to everything quickly.
Alrighty the 1,000 go deal is that 1,000 guardsmen vs 1,000 droids.... hmmm Same Weapons almost identical armor but the imperium could just send in lots of aircraft to support the guardsmen. And also considering that the imperium is well known for excuting plans fairly quickly but their battles take years to do because the scale of the wars.
The Imperium's cobras are as fast if not faster than Eldar fighters. Thats pretty damn fast. And Cobras are basically fighters and are the size of a Star Destroyer and they are equipped with lances. Lots and Lots of lances.
The Imperiums FTLs are pretty good by themselves. But ever since the Imperium has warp capability the GE is screwed.
The Death Stars are screwed against the combined efforts of one fleet. The GE could barely handle that many ships and that many armies at the same time.
I've heard of Creed, just never read anything to validate his genius (or lack there of). I've read about the Blackstone fortresses to, but if Chaos has them then they may as well not even exist X( 3 Months time on a Warp Drive is far from quick when an Imperial fleet can cover a similar distance in at least half that. As for droids, don't forget they also get Hailfire, Spider and a slough of other types of droids as support for them. Those should even up things a tad.
Concerning lances, would they be repelled by a Star Destroyers shields, as they a a beam on concentrated Warp, yes? And I still don't think that you're getting, the warp would not be a better alternative as it could end up taking the ships Centuries to get to a battle that's happening now.
the IoM hardly ever responds to a battle happening "Now" they don't need to.
IoM space defenses are designed to repel invaders either long enough to get a distress call out so a relief fleet can come in a few weeks OR the defenses are just tough enough to stop many attacks outright. a very basic IoM plantary defense fleet might consist of 1-2 Cruisers(which are about 25-50% larger then Star Destroyers) and up to a dozen escort frigates(around the same size as a Victory or Acclamator cruiser) it would take a sizable GE fleet to even have a stab at a fleet like that and that is just a basic defense fleet. it doesn't even include any orbital or planet based torpedo launchers.
if an IoM world doesn't have at least this level of defense it is either an Astartes recruiting world(which opens up other, Genetically enhanced 8ft, problems) or it really isn't important and the IoM can afford to lose it or let it sit and wait untill a fleet can be sent to take it back.
Azure wrote:
Concerning lances, would they be repelled by a Star Destroyers shields, as they a a beam on concentrated Warp, yes? And I still don't think that you're getting, the warp would not be a better alternative as it could end up taking the ships Centuries to get to a battle that's happening now.
Lances are not concentrations of warp. That is a nova cannon and they go right through shields. But they are pretty inaccurate.
Sorry but the last part made me facepalm
Oh ok, that does make Lances seem like abit more a threat. I don't understand why though? Warp travel is terribly unpredictable as has been evidenced multiple times before in the official fluff and warp drives take 3 months, using a previous poster's data here, to travel a significant distance.
Actually not 3 months just regularly ftls.
But Warp drive is so unpredictable it could be 1 minute to 500 years. But if it reaches more than just years it is incredibly rare. Like seeing every single Space Marine in the same place at the same time.
Remember the warp is unpredictable but it is not like everytime you jump through the warp you will be stuck in there for thousands of year.s
Very true, the Warp is highly erratic so it's entirely plausible that the fleet arrives when needed but it seems like it eccentricity rarely plays in favor of time management. Just for a stable way of travel it doesn't seem like a great solution. It's similar to playing poker, anything can happen. Hyperspace is abit more similar to chess, there are occasional hiccups in plans but for the most part you know how things can move and work. Yay horrid analogies, but I'm going with them anyway.
Yep remember Cobra fighters can take anywhere from 20 minutes to make to around 1 day to make. Because they are so simple to make but they are so deadly. But the GE could never replicated because the technologies required are so god awfully high they could no do it
Asherian Command wrote:Azure you have never heard of CREEEEEEEEEEDDDDDDDDDDDDDD!!!!!!!
He is the greatest Tactican the imperium has ever known.
Plus Black Stone Fortress were known for being bigger than moons....
Also Ever since Warp Drives are enabled that means that they can respond to everything quickly.
Alrighty the 1,000 go deal is that 1,000 guardsmen vs 1,000 droids.... hmmm Same Weapons almost identical armor but the imperium could just send in lots of aircraft to support the guardsmen. And also considering that the imperium is well known for excuting plans fairly quickly but their battles take years to do because the scale of the wars.
The Imperium's cobras are as fast if not faster than Eldar fighters. Thats pretty damn fast. And Cobras are basically fighters and are the size of a Star Destroyer and they are equipped with lances. Lots and Lots of lances.
The Imperiums FTLs are pretty good by themselves. But ever since the Imperium has warp capability the GE is screwed.
The Death Stars are screwed against the combined efforts of one fleet. The GE could barely handle that many ships and that many armies at the same time.
I've heard of Creed, just never read anything to validate his genius (or lack there of). I've read about the Blackstone fortresses to, but if Chaos has them then they may as well not even exist X( 3 Months time on a Warp Drive is far from quick when an Imperial fleet can cover a similar distance in at least half that. As for droids, don't forget they also get Hailfire, Spider and a slough of other types of droids as support for them. Those should even up things a tad.
Concerning lances, would they be repelled by a Star Destroyers shields, as they a a beam on concentrated Warp, yes? And I still don't think that you're getting, the warp would not be a better alternative as it could end up taking the ships Centuries to get to a battle that's happening now.
the IoM hardly ever responds to a battle happening "Now" they don't need to.
IoM space defenses are designed to repel invaders either long enough to get a distress call out so a relief fleet can come in a few weeks OR the defenses are just tough enough to stop many attacks outright. a very basic IoM plantary defense fleet might consist of 1-2 Cruisers(which are about 25-50% larger then Star Destroyers) and up to a dozen escort frigates(around the same size as a Victory or Acclamator cruiser) it would take a sizable GE fleet to even have a stab at a fleet like that and that is just a basic defense fleet. it doesn't even include any orbital or planet based torpedo launchers.
if an IoM world doesn't have at least this level of defense it is either an Astartes recruiting world(which opens up other, Genetically enhanced 8ft, problems) or it really isn't important and the IoM can afford to lose it or let it sit and wait untill a fleet can be sent to take it back.
Would there ever be any fighting then? Empire's not going to attack a highly defended world and IoM can't get to the faster Empire ships so....not much happening war wise.
Asherian Command wrote:Azure you have never heard of CREEEEEEEEEEDDDDDDDDDDDDDD!!!!!!!
He is the greatest Tactican the imperium has ever known.
Plus Black Stone Fortress were known for being bigger than moons....
Also Ever since Warp Drives are enabled that means that they can respond to everything quickly.
Alrighty the 1,000 go deal is that 1,000 guardsmen vs 1,000 droids.... hmmm Same Weapons almost identical armor but the imperium could just send in lots of aircraft to support the guardsmen. And also considering that the imperium is well known for excuting plans fairly quickly but their battles take years to do because the scale of the wars.
The Imperium's cobras are as fast if not faster than Eldar fighters. Thats pretty damn fast. And Cobras are basically fighters and are the size of a Star Destroyer and they are equipped with lances. Lots and Lots of lances.
The Imperiums FTLs are pretty good by themselves. But ever since the Imperium has warp capability the GE is screwed.
The Death Stars are screwed against the combined efforts of one fleet. The GE could barely handle that many ships and that many armies at the same time.
I've heard of Creed, just never read anything to validate his genius (or lack there of). I've read about the Blackstone fortresses to, but if Chaos has them then they may as well not even exist X( 3 Months time on a Warp Drive is far from quick when an Imperial fleet can cover a similar distance in at least half that. As for droids, don't forget they also get Hailfire, Spider and a slough of other types of droids as support for them. Those should even up things a tad.
Concerning lances, would they be repelled by a Star Destroyers shields, as they a a beam on concentrated Warp, yes? And I still don't think that you're getting, the warp would not be a better alternative as it could end up taking the ships Centuries to get to a battle that's happening now.
the IoM hardly ever responds to a battle happening "Now" they don't need to.
IoM space defenses are designed to repel invaders either long enough to get a distress call out so a relief fleet can come in a few weeks OR the defenses are just tough enough to stop many attacks outright. a very basic IoM plantary defense fleet might consist of 1-2 Cruisers(which are about 25-50% larger then Star Destroyers) and up to a dozen escort frigates(around the same size as a Victory or Acclamator cruiser) it would take a sizable GE fleet to even have a stab at a fleet like that and that is just a basic defense fleet. it doesn't even include any orbital or planet based torpedo launchers.
if an IoM world doesn't have at least this level of defense it is either an Astartes recruiting world(which opens up other, Genetically enhanced 8ft, problems) or it really isn't important and the IoM can afford to lose it or let it sit and wait untill a fleet can be sent to take it back.
Would there ever be any fighting then? Empire's not going to attack a highly defended world and IoM can't get to the faster Empire ships so....not much happening war wise.
it just means the IoM slowly conquors the GE. once the ioM gets somewhere it is over. it might take a thousand years, but Star Wars would die in the end a long..........slow...........painful.........death.
Asherian Command wrote:Well the empire could try and escape the fleet but they would be systematically destroyed by a single lance shot.
That'd need to be a big-ass shot to take out an entire, spaced out fleet. And this all assumes that a IoM would ever run into an Imperial fleet. Highly doubt they would. Regardless I think a final summation would boil down to neither galaxy doing much to the either, the Imperials having ships that can disappear into space without being tracked instantly and IoM having huge-ass battle ships that are horribly powerful but unable to trace and find the Imperial fleets.
they just need to take each planet one by one untill the Empire ships run out of supplies and are forced to come to the IoM and take back the planets or die of starvation.
it's how the U.S. was able to push the japanese out of the Pacific islands. they took out the big supply bases and moved on. the rest just "withered and died on the vine"
Grey Templar wrote:the IoM doesn't need to find the fleets.
they just need to take each planet one by one untill the Empire ships run out of supplies and are forced to come to the IoM and take back the planets or die of starvation.
it's how the U.S. was able to push the japanese out of the Pacific islands. they took out the big supply bases and moved on. the rest just "withered and died on the vine"
The 40k Universe would be rife with planets to grab and take to though, planets that could remain untouched for years.
Grey Templar wrote:read my previous post to see why that would be impossable/wouldn't effect the IoM.
any planets the Empire could take would be planets the IoM could afford to lose.
I'm putting it out there that neither would win, IoM can afford to lose them and wouldn't know they were gone for quite a long time. It's sort of a situation that just won't really get anywhere.
Grey Templar wrote:read my previous post to see why that would be impossable/wouldn't effect the IoM.
any planets the Empire could take would be planets the IoM could afford to lose.
I'm putting it out there that neither would win, IoM can afford to lose them and wouldn't know they were gone for quite a long time. It's sort of a situation that just won't really get anywhere.
o they know their gone. Astropathic communication is pretty fast. it just takes a few months for the administratum to send help.
and those worlds would do the Empire no good. if they can take them they will have little to no infrastructure to resupply the Empire fleets.
sourclams wrote:Blaster would probably be equiv to a lasgun, although much more miniaturized due to arguably better tech.
Ahem.
Melissia wrote:SW blasters can't disembody limbs, decapitate someone, or blast holes through people.
Seriously, the lasgun is a very powerful weapon, more powerful than modern standard infantry weapons. Flak armor is definitely far better than modern infantry armor, being lighter while covering more of the body-- so not only would a guardsman in flak armor be better protected than someone from the US Army, they'd also have better stamina because they don't carry around anywhere near as much weight.
And based off of the movies, stormtrooper armor is pretty lame. 40k's stormtroopers, meanwhile, have extremely protective armor, able to catch a rocket in the chest with little damage.
sourclams wrote:Blaster would probably be equiv to a lasgun, although much more miniaturized due to arguably better tech.
Ahem.
Melissia wrote:SW blasters can't disembody limbs, decapitate someone, or blast holes through people.
Seriously, the lasgun is a very powerful weapon, more powerful than modern standard infantry weapons. Flak armor is definitely far better than modern infantry armor, being lighter while covering more of the body-- so not only would a guardsman in flak armor be better protected than someone from the US Army, they'd also have better stamina because they don't carry around anywhere near as much weight.
And based off of the movies, stormtrooper armor is pretty lame. 40k's stormtroopers, meanwhile, have extremely protective armor, able to catch a rocket in the chest with little damage.
Yeah 5 vs 1 is not fair.
It is extremely one sided right now. What no other Star Wars fan will help out The other fan?
....For the record, Asherian, Cobras are destroyers the same size as an ISD. Not fighters in the slightest. And Nova cannons don't involve the warp at all. Nova cannons fire, basically, a hypervelocity bomb that does a lot of pain to whatever it hits, and whatever's near whatever it hits. The only weapons that maybe involve the Warp are vortex weapons (extremely rare, unlikely to be used except in major MAJOR battles) and the fancy Warp cannon thingy on Blackstone Fortresses. Of course, that doesn't really matter as all the Blackstones are either gone or in Chaos's hands.
BUt I think that says something. In SW fluff, ISDs are warships powerful enough to threaten whole rebellious worlds (provided the world isn't a major, hyper industrialized world), and is a significant threat on its own. However, to the IoM ISD sized vessels are tiny things barely worthy of a name, let alone an actual threat. GE ships the size of a true Imperial Battleship are extremely rare. The SSDs, and Eclipse class ships are very uncommon, and their mere presence is enough to turn the tide of a battle, or pose a major threat to even heavily defended planets. Imagine the GEs reaction to seeing an Imperial Crusade fleet with tens of ships on that scale, dozens more that are midsized, and potentially hundreds of ISD sized vessels. It'll be a massive force. Something that is an extremely rare sight.
Not to mention, the response depends on who we're facing. The Republic wouldn't be able to counter attack at all. The civiillian leadership would demand every asset stay and protect their electorate. The Empire may stand united for a while, but once the various sector Moffs and Admirals see that the GE may not be able to ensure their own survival? THey'll begin to break away, hoarding their own assets to protect their own realms, and maybe even try to negotiate seperate peace treaties. It might even work. Most GE leaders are human, and are xenophobic, if they agree to worship the Emperor and pay tithes, then there is no reason why the Imperium wouldn't take them in
Edit: And while Thrawn was a genius, he failed to see his own demise coming. Not to mention....it almost seems like a lot of his plans were based on technological trickery rather than actual battle prowess. Not saying he wasn't good, but he's not a magical 'I win' commander.
tl;dr. Thrawn is dead. His clones are dead. Creed is alive and kicking.
ChrisWWII wrote:Assuming it GETS through the ridiciulous number of orbital defenses Terra has. Seriously. Terra's defenses make Cadia look like a wooden fence.
Guys, come on, the average IoM Crusier isn't even as big as a Super Star Destroyer, it's a little bigger than a regular one. And the Death Star can fit lik 40 Super Star Destroyers inside. I don't think they can tackle the Death Star. let alone 2.
Soure for size: http://www.merzo.net/
ChrisWWII wrote:Assuming it GETS through the ridiciulous number of orbital defenses Terra has. Seriously. Terra's defenses make Cadia look like a wooden fence.
Guys, come on, the average IoM Crusier isn't even as big as a Super Star Destroyer, it's a little bigger than a regular one. And the Death Star can fit lik 40 Super Star Destroyers inside. I don't think they can tackle the Death Star. let alone 2. Soure for size: http://www.merzo.net/
Well what about the Battle Ships which are twice the size of the cruisers? Plus the imperium has weapons that took down a civilization similar to the Star Wars universe.
Ketara wrote:Just to chip in on a point I just read, internet memes aside, Thrawn > Creed.
Seriously. Thrawn is the ultimate commander in terms of strategy.
So he beats the Art of War writer and Hannibal and Caesar? In History sense how good is he?
He is a genius that makes Creed look like a teenager with ADHD. If I recall, he defeated something like 5 enemy cruisers with only one in his first ever space encounter. He can predict what an enemy space admiral is going to do based on their racial makeup. He innovated new strategies and technologies, and despite being vastly numerically outnumbered by the New Republic, easily succeeded in pushing them back. He always manages to attack the enemies critical spot, be it in a tactical sense, or a strategical one. He is in short, a grade A, certified, bona fide genius.
Creed was an excellent field commander, and succeeded in running a war damn well in a single system. Thrawn did what he did on a galactic scale, and did it better.
Command style Thrawn was considered a true warrior by those who served under him. If a battle Thrawn planned could not be won, Thrawn preferred not to waste troops and equipment in futile displays of power; he would withdraw and adjust his plans. He also encouraged Captain Gilad Pellaeon to voice his ideas, because, unlike many egotistical Imperial commanders, Thrawn could accept valid ideas even if they were not his own. Thrawn was not concerned with his own personal glory, only with winning the fight against the New Republic (which he refused to acknowledge as such, instead constantly referring to it as "the Rebellion"). It was later postulated that Thrawn did not support the Empire per se, but rather wanted to establish order in the known galaxy in preparation to combat as-yet unknown threats he had discovered during his time in the Outer Rim (probably early scouts of the Yuuzhan Vong).
Thrawn was more tolerant of the failures of those under his command than other Imperial officials, who were known for their lethal reaction to minor failures. Unlike Darth Vader in particular, Thrawn would not regularly terminate individuals under his command for "errors." However, he did order the execution of the commander of a conscripted crewman responsible for operating the tractor beams when Luke Skywalker escaped a trap he set, but only because the crew member had not trained the conscript because he considered him beneath regular imperial troops. Later, when Skywalker escaped a similar trap, the man running the tractor beams had tried an innovative solution in an attempt to capture him. Instead of having the man killed for failing to do so, Thrawn recognized the crewman's initiative by promoting him to Lieutenant. This attitude drove those that served him to both highly respect and fiercely stand by Thrawn.
Ironically, Thrawn was also personally responsible for one of the greatest setbacks to the Imperial cause. His ruthless persecution of smuggler Talon Karrde and estrangement of former Emperor's Hand Mara Jade led directly to her decision to aid the Rebel Alliance. Mara's support proved decisive in the campaign to destroy the Empire's cloning facilities at Mt. Tantiss: in the final confrontation with insane Jedi Master Joruus C'Baoth, she landed the killing blow.
Thrawn is known for a supremely unique command style. He would view the native art of a given species or planet to understand them better as a race or planet, and so too, gain insight into their military style. He believed the study of this art would somehow give him an advantage in battle, since it provided him with information on the psyche of his opponents and informed him of their psychological blind spots. Examples include the invasion of Ukio, where he determined that the defenders had a strong superstitious fear of the unknown and the unexplained. Therefore, his attack with cloaked vessels frightened them into submission when a more adventurous people might have continued to resist. His immediate subordinate, Pellaeon, voices the opinion that Thrawn's analysis of art was merely a cover for his true military analyses, which he would want to keep secret to stymie enemy spies. He was known as one of the most brilliant military commanders in the Star Wars universe and was superior to even geniuses such as General Garm Bel Iblis who only later joined the New Republic due to personal issues with the Rebel Alliance's leader Mon Mothma, and Admiral Ackbar, who led the Rebellion to victory in many crucial battles.
Unlike the Emperor, Thrawn preferred to use existing technologies in novel ways rather than spend billions of credits on super weapons that might or might not have worked (like the Death Star, Eye of Palpatine or even the Darksaber). Thrawn turned medium-sized capital ships like Carrack cruisers and Victory-class Star Destroyers into formidable weapons. Unlike many prominent imperial commanders, he had no Super-Star Destroyer under his command.
I doubt they'd need to handle the death star. They could probably just get half a company of Marines to drop pod into it and take it over, then sick the mechanicus on it and turn it against the Empire.
Ketara wrote:Just to chip in on a point I just read, internet memes aside, Thrawn > Creed.
Seriously. Thrawn is the ultimate commander in terms of strategy.
So he beats the Art of War writer and Hannibal and Caesar? In History sense how good is he?
He is a genius that makes Creed look like a teenager with ADHD. If I recall, he defeated something like 5 enemy cruisers with only one in his first ever space encounter. He can predict what an enemy space admiral is going to do based on their racial makeup. He innovated new strategies and technologies, and despite being vastly numerically outnumbered by the New Republic, easily succeeded in pushing them back. He always manages to attack the enemies critical spot, be it in a tactical sense, or a strategical one. He is in short, a grade A, certified, bona fide genius.
Creed was an excellent field commander, and succeeded in running a war damn well in a single system. Thrawn did what he did on a galactic scale, and did it better.
Ketara wrote:I just edited a description into my last post.
And possibly Macharias would be on his level. At the very least though, Thrawn would be his equal.
Really Damn he is awesome. I love Macharias. He has to be my most favorite general of all time. I want his model :(
Unfortunately, Thrawn kind of got killed by his bodyguard in the end, in the middle of a crucial space battle. The Imperials realised that without his genius, they didn't stand a hope in hell, and retreated.
Ketara wrote:I just edited a description into my last post.
And possibly Macharias would be on his level. At the very least though, Thrawn would be his equal.
Really Damn he is awesome. I love Macharias. He has to be my most favorite general of all time. I want his model :(
Unfortunately, Thrawn kind of got killed by his bodyguard in the end, in the middle of a crucial space battle. The Imperials realised that without his genius, they didn't stand a hope in hell, and retreated.
Yeah I found his card in my starwars card collection. Yeah he is pretty super l33t
I know all about that site. And I'm not saying an Imperial Cruiser isn't comparable to a SSD....it's between a regular ISD and a SSD. But a full on Imperial Battleship? That could take on a SSD, especially given that the Imperial FLeet will probably out number the GE's fleet.
Not to mention there's only 1 Death Star at a time. There were never 2 at any point. Also, you have to assume the Death Star GETS to Terra, even though the GE has no accurate maps of Imperial space as far as hyperspace goes. But a massed Imperial fleet, especially combined with the ridiculous defenses in the Sol system would probably be enough to cripple, if not outright destroy the Death Star. The Imperials are going to hesitate to use everything they can....virus bombs, cyclonic torpedoes.
Remember, the IoM has taken down Death Star sized craft before. I do believe it was a Necron construct called the World Engine, containing an entire planets worth of Necron warriors. If the Imperium could take that out, why couldn't they take down the Death Star?
ChrisWWII wrote:I know all about that site. And I'm not saying an Imperial Cruiser isn't comparable to a SSD....it's between a regular ISD and a SSD. But a full on Imperial Battleship? That could take on a SSD, especially given that the Imperial FLeet will probably out number the GE's fleet.
Not to mention there's only 1 Death Star at a time. There were never 2 at any point. Also, you have to assume the Death Star GETS to Terra, even though the GE has no accurate maps of Imperial space as far as hyperspace goes. But a massed Imperial fleet, especially combined with the ridiculous defenses in the Sol system would probably be enough to cripple, if not outright destroy the Death Star. The Imperials are going to hesitate to use everything they can....virus bombs, cyclonic torpedoes.
Remember, the IoM has taken down Death Star sized craft before. I do believe it was a Necron construct called the World Engine, containing an entire planets worth of Necron warriors. If the Imperium could take that out, why couldn't they take down the Death Star?
Just joining in on this, being a "star wars fanboy" myself and 40k player. I personally put it as follows:
1) Star Wars
2) 40k 3) Star Trek
Pretty much in SW, technology is considerably more reliable and advanced (in my view at least) than in the 40k universe. An example is the swifter travel (where you can get from one side to the other in a matter of days pretty much). I realize that has been beaten to death.
Meanwhile i wish to drop the three following bombs which i do not think have been mentioned
Second, the Eclipse Class
http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Eclipse-class_Super_Star_Destroyer A watered down sovereign effectively (keep in mind that both of this carry near 1000 ships, however to the best of my knowledge, the Executor class may carry more firepower, as a specific weapons setup has never been determined for it IIRC)
Third, the nail in the coffin effectively:
http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Suncrusher The Sun Crusher, this thing is the most lethal thing in the SW galaxy (GCW era, not Legacy, i'm pretty sure the new stuff can do more damage than this). Basically, it carries resonance torpedos. What happens is you fire one of these buggers into a sun, and the sun goes boom. So so much for your "impossible to destroy" Forgeworlds. Secondly, the sun crusher is equipped with quantum crystalline armor, which is impenetrable (in the Jedi Academy trilogy, this thing wrecked an Imperial Class Star Destroyer just by ramming through it's bridge, it also withstood a direct hit from the prototype death star's superlaser, bear in mind though, that the DS and DS II lasers were more powerful i believe). Oh, and it survived a supernova, now don't see Imperial (40k) vessels doing that now huh? (I laugh at your holo fields Eldar,haha). It was only destroyed when it was sent through a black hole in the Maw. Thus, this thing pops up in Sol, and fires off a resonance torpedo, two minutes later (or somthing like that) and bye bye Imperium, there goes the heart of the Imperium, because of one starfighter sized ship.
Now also bear in mind, that these vessels were few in number (the sun crusher was just one ship), however, they could be built in mass numbers (due to the fact that as i recall reading somewhere, it takes the Imperium CONSIDERABLY longer to build warships, so the SW universe factions could simply out produce the Imperium), the Sun Crusher, would be unlikely to be rebuilt, as it's designer, Qwi Xux, would not part with the details of it's construction.
Yeah. But the Imperium of man could just launch a ton of a drop pods and the GE are screwed. As Armored space Marines slaughter everything in their path.
And not only that but we have something to counter that.
Meet the Grand Cruisers
Battleship
Battleships are huge ships, with colossal amounts of weapons and shields, and usually serve as the flagship for the Admiral of the Fleet, though this is not always necessarily the case. Although very powerful, battleships are very slow to maneuver and cannot react quickly to enemies that rapidly change course. The three main classes are the Emperor (which can carry an immense amount of attack craft in addition to its normal, incredibly powerful weaponry),the Victory (renowned for its heavy lance batteries) and the Retribution (which is noted for its powerful broadside firepower and its very large amount of torpedo tubes). There are other more uncommon Battleships, such as the older Apocalypse and Oberon classes. Other Segmentum battlefleets may rely on yet other classes, but the Emperor and more recent Retribution are by far the most common in the Imperial Navy. Imperial battleships can have crews of anywhere between 25,000 to 3,000,000 or more depending on sources, including large numbers of Imperial Navy armsmen to defend against enemy boarding assaults. Battleships can be up to 8 kilometres from prow to stern and displace billions of tons. Because they represent such a vast expenditure of resources and require a fairly advanced technical base, these are typically constructed only in the largest shipyards above the major Adeptus Mechanicus forge worlds. These vessels are precious assets and are carefully husbanded, usually employed in only larger fleet formations.
Grand Cruiser
Grand cruisers are significantly smaller than battleships, yet distinctly larger than cruisers. These vessels are usually very old in design and do not incorporate many of the features that are typical in current Imperial Navy vessels, like the armoured prow, and are not entirely compatible with current navy tactical doctrine. Due to this, many are retired from active duty, but are still used by reserve fleets. The Avenger, with its powerful broadside firepower, is one such example. There are also some modernized versions of grand cruisers in service, but since these are much larger and more heavily-armed than their predecessors, they are more often classed as battleships. These kinds of vessels are usually purpose-built or modified from battlecruiser hulls and are not commonly encountered in the Imperial Navy.
Cruiser
Cruisers make up the majority of a fleet. Though not as powerful as a battleship, cruisers are much faster and can still deliver a deadly blow. There are multiple classes of cruiser, most based on the same general hull design but incorporating different combinations of broadside batteries, lance turrets and starfighter hangars. Examples include the all-round, ubiquitous Lunar class, the Gothic with its powerful lances and the Dictator starfighter and attack craft carrier. Cruisers can carry a crew complement of anywhere between 1,000-25,000 and (including Imperial Navy armsmen and military police squads), depending on sources. While cruisers are still particularly complex, it is not uncommon for them to be constructed on smaller forge worlds or any civilized world that has a shipyard suitable for constructing vessels of their size. Of particular note was the Lunar cruiser Lord Daros, constructed in orbit above the feral world of Unloth in eleven years by relying on the forced labor of most of that planet’s population for materials.
A note on Imperial ship classes – while naval warships can be defined along a fairly limited number of classes based on weapon configurations approved by the Adeptus Mechanicus, the form these vessels takes varies widely throughout the Imperium. For example, a Lunar class constructed above Cypra Mundi in Segmentum Obscuras may bear little resemblance to a Lunar class constructed above Kar Durniash in Ultima Segmentum and even less so to a Lunar class, constructed among the vast shipyards of Mars. Nonetheless, they will all have roughly the same operating characteristics and weapon configuration, and thus can be easily serviced by any orbital facility throughout Imperial space.
Note there are also classes of Battlecruisers. Although based on a hull-design that is similar to the regular cruisers, these ships are generally somewhat larger and more heavily armed, incorporating more advanced power distribution systems capable of supporting battleship-grade weaponry in a cruiser hull. A notable example is the Mars class Battlecruiser, with its fighter bays, broadside batteries, dorsal lance turrets and an immense, prow-mounted Nova Cannon capable of attacking targets at extremely long range.
A subset of the cruiser category are the Light Cruisers. These ships fall in size between cruisers and escorts, mixing the firepower and durability of the former with the speed and manoeuvrability of the latter. The Dauntless is a very common light cruiser class in the Imperial Navy. Extremely self-sufficient, it is fast and has enough firepower to be a threat to both escorts and capital ships. There are other classes in common use in the Imperial Navy, most notably the Endeavour class, which serves in varied forms and hull types throughout the Imperium. Light cruisers are a fairly common ship class, for they are relatively simple to construct for being a capital ship, and they are uniquely suited for reconnaissance patrols and for making a presence where their speed and maneuverability are an advantage, and where having a larger number of smaller hulls allows the Navy to monitor a wider area of space.
Ironclad
Ironclads, much like their contemporary counterparts, are vast 8-kilometres vessels which lack the void shielding of their counterparts in favour of meters of adamantium plate armour. These ships, built before the advent of void-screen technology, have since been phased out of production, for the main part, to be replaced by more modern designs. However, those remaining in service have been recommissioned for a variety of purposes; various pattern ironclads may be retrofitted with gargantuan, ship-, station- and even planet-killer cannon running the entire length of the ship's keel, linked directly to the stern fusion reactors; others may simply be braced and reinforced for the purpose of ramming into - and through - enemy vessels. These ships are rare in the Imperial Navy, due to their archaic design and the lack of facilities still capable of repairing, let alone producing them.
Escort ship
Escort ships are the smallest type of ship in the Imperial Navy fleets, found in two distinct sub-classes. The larger of the two are Frigates, which are better armed and more heavily armoured. Destroyers are generally smaller, but they are by far the fastest and most maneuverable interstellar warships employed by the Imperial Navy. They are usually organised in squadrons of 2 to 6 vessels and will always operate as a group. The main task of the escort ships is to serve as a screen for capital ships against enemy torpedoes and attack crafts so that they can get into position more quickly and safely. They are also employed behind the gun line to finish off enemy cruisers that have been damaged so that the larger vessels can concentrate on the most important threats in an enemy formation. Most escort classes specialise in a certain role, such as the Cobra class torpedo boat destroyers or the Firestorm class frigate with its armour-piercing prow-mounted Lance. Escort ships are normally not more than 1.5 kilometres in length, with destroyers generally being only 750 metres to 2 kilometres from prow to stern.
ChrisWWII wrote:Assuming it GETS through the ridiciulous number of orbital defenses Terra has. Seriously. Terra's defenses make Cadia look like a wooden fence.
Guys, come on, the average IoM Crusier isn't even as big as a Super Star Destroyer, it's a little bigger than a regular one. And the Death Star can fit lik 40 Super Star Destroyers inside. I don't think they can tackle the Death Star. let alone 2.
Soure for size: http://www.merzo.net/
according to your link a Super Star Destroyer is approx 19 kilometers long. twice as big as the Retribution class Battle Cruiser further down. pretty big, but does it really matter?
the problem is that the Empire built less then a handfull of Superstar Destroyers. Retribution class battleships certaintly arn't common, but there are hundreds of them. 2-3 of them plus a support fleet would outmaneuver the bulky SSD quite easily if they didn't just stay back and pelt it with torpedos.
a Normal Star Destroyer is shown being roughly the same size as a Cobra class escort. the IoM probably has hundreds of thousands, if not millions, of Cobras. and the Galactic Empire relys on these to be their main line ships?
when you consider that Cobra sized ships get pulverized constantly in the 40k fluff while Star Destoyers can last quite a bit of punishment in the Star Wars universe. this suggests that the Weapons of the 40k universe are massivly more powerful then Star Wars.
pointing out that Star Wars has bigger ships really doesn't help Star Wars. it's a case of Bismark syndrome. the Bismark was made to be the terror of the oceans, bigger and better then any other battleship of its time and it proved it by sinking the HMS Hood with all hands. but it was completely destroyed because of what? a little WW1 era torpedo plane disabled its rudder and the Bismark got curb stomped by the royal navy who had more ships of medium size.
the Death Star isn't a huge deal either. the IoM would get a large fleet together to hunt it down and capture it. Assassins could easily infiltrate it and provide the location and disable its hyperdrive. then the IoM just has to launch a boarding party of Space marines and Stormtroopers. the IoM then has control while the Mechanicus study it for tech. or an assassin could just leave a bomb with some lifeater virus inside.
we will not entertain the possability of 2 Death Stars at once. there never were 2 at once so it's out, but even if we did allow it it really wouldn't make any difference.
ChrisWWII wrote:Assuming it GETS through the ridiciulous number of orbital defenses Terra has. Seriously. Terra's defenses make Cadia look like a wooden fence.
Guys, come on, the average IoM Crusier isn't even as big as a Super Star Destroyer, it's a little bigger than a regular one. And the Death Star can fit lik 40 Super Star Destroyers inside. I don't think they can tackle the Death Star. let alone 2. Soure for size: http://www.merzo.net/
according to your link a Super Star Destroyer is approx 19 kilometers long. twice as big as the Retribution class Battle Cruiser further down. pretty big, but does it really matter?
the problem is that the Empire built less then a handfull of Superstar Destroyers. Retribution class battleships certaintly arn't common, but there are hundreds of them. 2-3 of them plus a support fleet would outmaneuver the bulky SSD quite easily if they didn't just stay back and pelt it with torpedos.
a Normal Star Destroyer is shown being roughly the same size as a Cobra class escort. the IoM probably has hundreds of thousands, if not millions, of Cobras. and the Galactic Empire relys on these to be their main line ships?
when you consider that Cobra sized ships get pulverized constantly in the 40k fluff while Star Destoyers can last quite a bit of punishment in the Star Wars universe. this suggests that the Weapons of the 40k universe are massivly more powerful then Star Wars.
pointing out that Star Wars has bigger ships really doesn't help Star Wars. it's a case of Bismark syndrome. the Bismark was made to be the terror of the oceans, bigger and better then any other battleship of its time and it proved it by sinking the HMS Hood with all hands. but it was completely destroyed because of what? a little WW1 era torpedo plane disabled its rudder and the Bismark got curb stomped by the royal navy who had more ships of medium size.
the Death Star isn't a huge deal either. the IoM would get a large fleet together to hunt it down and capture it. Assassins could easily infiltrate it and provide the location and disable its hyperdrive. then the IoM just has to launch a boarding party of Space marines and Stormtroopers. the IoM then has control while the Mechanicus study it for tech. or an assassin could just leave a bomb with some lifeater virus inside.
we will not entertain the possability of 2 Death Stars at once. there never were 2 at once so it's out, but even if we did allow it it really wouldn't make any difference.
Unfortunately, all those super vessels no longer exist. Suncrusher? Destroyed by falling into a black hole. Eclipse class destroyers? Only 2 were built. One was destroyed by Palpatine losing control, the 2nd was destroyed by the Galaxy Gun. Almost no records exist about the Sovereign class destroyer.
In short, yes the GE has a few ships bigger and better, but those few ships have all been destroyed. The most common ship, above an ISD comparable to an imperial Battleship is a SSD. And even a SSD can't last forever against a couple Imperial Battleships.
More importantly, what evidence do you have that they can 'mass produce' these giant vessels? Building a giant ship is a vastly different undertaking from building lots of small ships. To build one huge ship, you will need a huge construction yard to build it. NOt lots of little ones suitable for building ISDs. But a huge one for the bigger ship. There's a reason those ships weren't mass produced before. No doubt, they facilities needed to build them are extremely rare, and no doubt they are ridiculously expensive to make. If you haven't noticed, the most successful post-Palpatine Warlord wasn't the one with a stolen superweapon or gigantic ship....it was Thrawn. Who, as Ketara has pointed out, won by using smaller assets, not trying to make huge ones.
And finally, you can't magically come up with lost technology, and destroyed ships. If you can do that, then the IoM gets the Emperor and all the Primarchs back. Somehow, I doubt that's a fair thing to do.
Exark wrote:Just joining in on this, being a "star wars fanboy" myself and 40k player. I personally put it as follows:
1) Star Wars
2) 40k 3) Star Trek
Pretty much in SW, technology is considerably more reliable and advanced (in my view at least) than in the 40k universe. An example is the swifter travel (where you can get from one side to the other in a matter of days pretty much). I realize that has been beaten to death.
Meanwhile i wish to drop the three following bombs which i do not think have been mentioned
Second, the Eclipse Class
http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Eclipse-class_Super_Star_Destroyer A watered down sovereign effectively (keep in mind that both of this carry near 1000 ships, however to the best of my knowledge, the Executor class may carry more firepower, as a specific weapons setup has never been determined for it IIRC)
Third, the nail in the coffin effectively:
http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Suncrusher The Sun Crusher, this thing is the most lethal thing in the SW galaxy (GCW era, not Legacy, i'm pretty sure the new stuff can do more damage than this). Basically, it carries resonance torpedos. What happens is you fire one of these buggers into a sun, and the sun goes boom. So so much for your "impossible to destroy" Forgeworlds. Secondly, the sun crusher is equipped with quantum crystalline armor, which is impenetrable (in the Jedi Academy trilogy, this thing wrecked an Imperial Class Star Destroyer just by ramming through it's bridge, it also withstood a direct hit from the prototype death star's superlaser, bear in mind though, that the DS and DS II lasers were more powerful i believe). Oh, and it survived a supernova, now don't see Imperial (40k) vessels doing that now huh? (I laugh at your holo fields Eldar,haha). It was only destroyed when it was sent through a black hole in the Maw. Thus, this thing pops up in Sol, and fires off a resonance torpedo, two minutes later (or somthing like that) and bye bye Imperium, there goes the heart of the Imperium, because of one starfighter sized ship.
Now also bear in mind, that these vessels were few in number (the sun crusher was just one ship), however, they could be built in mass numbers (due to the fact that as i recall reading somewhere, it takes the Imperium CONSIDERABLY longer to build warships, so the SW universe factions could simply out produce the Imperium), the Sun Crusher, would be unlikely to be rebuilt, as it's designer, Qwi Xux, would not part with the details of it's construction.
Just some thoughts
EDIT: Edited for clarity and grammar, hopefully
again "Bismark Syndrome"
1 assassin on a suicide mission with Lifeater virus or a Vortex bomb=threat gone.
the IoM may not be able to mass produce ships, but they are able to make large numbers of them in many places at once.
and the "Suncrusher" is the worst written weapon ever. almost as bad a Halo Rings in terms of how it works. and an assassin could infiltrate it and either destroy it or commandeer it and take it back to the IoM. Resonance simply doesn't work anything like how it describes it. you arn't going to vibrate something as big as a star apart.
the Eclipse and Sovereign are powerful to be sure. sure, they could KO an IoM battleship each round of firing, but their lasers take a while to recharge and again an assassin infiltration would either capture or disable them.
Melissia wrote:Especially since a star is not made up of a single solid consistently structured material.
This
personally i think it was made up purely because SW fanboyz needed something to compete with all the other sci-fi universes out there and they needed something more dangerous then a Deathstar because otherwise it would be lame.
Star Wars fanfic is simply disgusting in the crazy stuff they come up with.
you really need some Grimdarkness and utter dispair to keep things within the realm of plausability.
Melissia wrote:Especially since a star is not made up of a single solid consistently structured material.
This
personally i think it was made up purely because SW fanboyz needed something to compete with all the other sci-fi universes out there and they needed something more dangerous then a Deathstar because otherwise it would be lame.
Star Wars fanfic is simply disgusting in the crazy stuff they come up with.
you really need some Grimdarkness and utter dispair to keep things within the realm of plausability.
Melissia wrote:Especially since a star is not made up of a single solid consistently structured material.
This
personally i think it was made up purely because SW fanboyz needed something to compete with all the other sci-fi universes out there and they needed something more dangerous then a Deathstar because otherwise it would be lame.
Star Wars fanfic is simply disgusting in the crazy stuff they come up with.
you really need some Grimdarkness and utter dispair to keep things within the realm of plausability.
True. 40k fanfic can get crazy too.
yeah, but it is mostly in the realm of how characters and factions are acting and it almost never gets written down as cannon.
C.S. Goto was the only person to sneak through and he has since been purged. i don't think he ever took 40k seriously.
40k is protected viciously by GW and their IP protection department. they don't let just anyone write about 40k.
George Lucas does very little quality control. as long as he gets a cut he doesn't care what gets written.
ChrisWWII wrote:Unfortunately, all those super vessels no longer exist. Suncrusher? Destroyed by falling into a black hole. Eclipse class destroyers? Only 2 were built. One was destroyed by Palpatine losing control, the 2nd was destroyed by the Galaxy Gun. Almost no records exist about the Sovereign class destroyer.
In short, yes the GE has a few ships bigger and better, but those few ships have all been destroyed. The most common ship, above an ISD comparable to an imperial Battleship is a SSD. And even a SSD can't last forever against a couple Imperial Battleships.
More importantly, what evidence do you have that they can 'mass produce' these giant vessels? Building a giant ship is a vastly different undertaking from building lots of small ships. To build one huge ship, you will need a huge construction yard to build it. NOt lots of little ones suitable for building ISDs. But a huge one for the bigger ship. There's a reason those ships weren't mass produced before. No doubt, they facilities needed to build them are extremely rare, and no doubt they are ridiculously expensive to make. If you haven't noticed, the most successful post-Palpatine Warlord wasn't the one with a stolen superweapon or gigantic ship....it was Thrawn. Who, as Ketara has pointed out, won by using smaller assets, not trying to make huge ones.
And finally, you can't magically come up with lost technology, and destroyed ships. If you can do that, then the IoM gets the Emperor and all the Primarchs back. Somehow, I doubt that's a fair thing to do.
I am merely pointing out the superweapons. However, had thrawn lived, he would haev put up one hell of a fight.
The Sovereigns had their keels laid down but where destroyed in drydock IIRC.
Mass production, simply the fact that there are hundreds of shipyards in the GFFA, they could theoretically be retooled, however this is pure conjecture on my part based on my own knowledge of the SW'verse. Granted, when the Executor itself was built, it nearly bankrupted the Empire as i recall.
And might i ask how the heck an assasin is going to infiltrate a vessel the size of an X-Wing?
It's a moot point however, by the year 137 ABY, larger ships were in play, and the whole superweapon craze had ended (http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Pellaeon-class_Star_Destroyer Pellaeon Class as an example, about 3 KM long, twice the size of an ISD i think), in favor of faster, harder hitting warships (read that in the Star dreadnought entry on the wookiepedia i think).
As to infiltration, how are you sure that the assassin wouldn't get blasted on the way there (given the firepower of most warships, however in this case, specifically the two SSDs?)
This is simply why neither side wins, you have people on both sides that immediately pull some trump card hehe
ChrisWWII wrote:
More importantly, what evidence do you have that they can 'mass produce' these giant vessels? Building a giant ship is a vastly different undertaking from building lots of small ships. To build one huge ship, you will need a huge construction yard to build it. NOt lots of little ones suitable for building ISDs. But a huge one for the bigger ship. There's a reason those ships weren't mass produced before.
Just to clarify, there are several major shipyards with the capacity to build Super Star Destroyers, Kuat Driveyards being just oen of them. To pull a quote:-
Once the Empire realized the threat posed by an organized rebellion with the downfall of the first Death Star battlestation, the Super Star Destroyers began to be mass-produced, with an average Moff or Sector Group Commander estimated to have at least one or more such superweapons in their arsenal throughout the course of the Galactic Civil War, bringing the total amount of ships up to hundreds or even thousands.[9] The Executor-class alone was made with over a dozen ships, their combined bulk equating to that of thousands of individual Star Destroyers. Such heavy warships served both as sector as well as regional command centers.
Super Star Destroyers were produced en masse, and that is actually supported several times throughout the extended universe. You have a few of the more famous ones, such as the Lusankya, Executor, and Iron Fist, but the reality is that there were actually dozens produced. Black Sword Command alone had three, and that was only responsible for one cluster of planets.
Exark wrote:
And might i ask how the heck an assasin is going to infiltrate a vessel the size of an X-Wing?
Quite simple actually. it would get inside when its docked and plant the bomb or steal it.
As to infiltration, how are you sure that the assassin wouldn't get blasted on the way there (given the firepower of most warships, however in this case, specifically the two SSDs?)
Well, a Callidus kills some petty officer when on Shore leave and disguises himself as that person. gets on board and does the job. this very thing happens in the Star Wars fluff and the movies illustrate that it is possable.
Yes because the GE can see into the future and can predict exactly what the Imperium of man does with it's assassins.
And also We cannot forget all of the awesome weapons that no one will ever cover about the imperium like the Cloaking devices put on kill teams. And the giant lasers that the Imperium of Man's Salamanders have. And Forge Ships and the Awesome Black Stone Fortresses and Imperial Navy Ship Yards.
Exark wrote:
And might i ask how the heck an assasin is going to infiltrate a vessel the size of an X-Wing?
Quite simple actually. it would get inside when its docked and plant the bomb or steal it.
As to infiltration, how are you sure that the assassin wouldn't get blasted on the way there (given the firepower of most warships, however in this case, specifically the two SSDs?)
Well, a Callidus kills some petty officer when on Shore leave and disguises himself as that person. gets on board and does the job. this very thing happens in the Star Wars fluff and the movies illustrate that it is possable.
I must admit I have nothing to say against in this case. However, I was working under the assumption of being in space, not in dock.
Exark wrote:
And might i ask how the heck an assasin is going to infiltrate a vessel the size of an X-Wing?
Quite simple actually. it would get inside when its docked and plant the bomb or steal it.
As to infiltration, how are you sure that the assassin wouldn't get blasted on the way there (given the firepower of most warships, however in this case, specifically the two SSDs?)
Well, a Callidus kills some petty officer when on Shore leave and disguises himself as that person. gets on board and does the job. this very thing happens in the Star Wars fluff and the movies illustrate that it is possable.
I must admit I have nothing to say against in this case. However, I was working under the assumption of being in space, not in dock.
yes but let us not forget Assassins of the Imperium of Man have cloaking generators some times. And they have been known for infilatatoring entire Battle Fleets and killing leaders.
and then there is the fact with the death watch. Yeah and the Custodes, and the Grey Knights, and Oh look at that the Titan Legions, and the entirety of all the regiments vs one gaxaly hmmm. 650 trillion humans vs 120 trillion.... Hmmmm I wonder who would win.
I don't think the comparison is fair because star wars is just a different scale to warhammer. The scariest thing in star wars blew up a planet, this is a common event in the warhammer universe.
Mr Nobody wrote:I don't think the comparison is fair because star wars is just a different scale to warhammer. The scariest thing in star wars blew up a planet, this is a common event in the warhammer universe.
so now the comparison isn't fair?
it may be one sided, but it is certaintly fair.
one reason i think Star Wars fails is because it was created with the last vistiges of the classic era of Sci-fi. Flash Gordon and Buck Rogers and all that era. it was a light hearted sci-fi with a light at the end of the tunnel.
"Forget the promise of progress and understanding, for there is no peace among the stars, only an eternity of slaughter and carnage, and the laughter of thirsting gods"
this verses
"May the Force be with you"
in the end a dark sci-fi will always beat a light sci-fi.
I think that there could be an argument put forward for Star Wars matching the Imperium of Man, but last time I tried it, I ended up with half a dozen people jumping down my throat, strawmanning furiously, and the whole thing descending into personal attacks. As such, I'm not too inclined to try it again.
That reminds me of the time I posted a ST vs. 40k thread here....it devolved pretty quickly before getting locked. Ah well.
But yes, Ketara, I have to say I was unaware of the number of SSDs produced. I always assumed they were rare commodities, cause each time one turned up it was ALWAYS a big deal. Isard was a major threat because she had the Lusankya (and arguably because she controlled Thyferra....). Zsinj was a major threat thanks to the Iron Fist, and Daala seemed to make getting the (K)Night Hammer together a major priority for her campaign.
It just seems to me that the reaction to seeing even an Executor class SSD seems to be one of seeing a kind of fabled threat, that you never expected to have to encounter. Of course, that's just my reading of it.
And...I'm not sure how many shipyards really could make SSDs. The only 2 that pop to mind are Kuat and Fondor.....I'm not sure if there are any others. All the other capital ship producing yards seem to turn out more ISDs or Mon Cal cruisers than the big SSDs.
Alot of people are saying about the imperiums firepower but I believe that the entire 40k universe together will beat the out of sw ie:tyranids and orks and tau and chaos and eldar and imperium and necrons and the only race who star wars would beat would be sisters alone
Well, just to list the SSD'S even registered in the extended universe in alphabetical order, you have:-
-Admiral Giels Flagship SSD
-The Aggressor (part of the Inner Rim fleet)
-The Allegiance (Imperial Flagship during the Battle for Mon Calamari when the Emperor was resurrected)
-The Annihilator (destroyed in battle against the Zann Consortium above Kuat shipyards)
-The Aramdia (part of Black Sword Command)
-The Arc Hammer (modified SSD that served as the base for the Dark Trooper design)
-The Dominion (destroyed by Boba Fett and co)
-The Enforcer (Under Admiral Kohrin in the Second Fleet)
-The Executor (Vaders flagship)
-The Guardian (part of the Coruscant defense fleet until absconded with by rogue imperial commander)
-The Intimidator (part of Black Sword Command)
-The Iron Fist (Warlord Zsinj's flagship)
-The Knight Hammer (constructed in secret by Delvardus, stolen and renamed by Admiral Daala)
-The Lusankya (Ysanne Isards flagship)
-The Megador (Used by Admiral Pellaeon, modified to have huge numbers of TIE launch bays)
-The Razors Kiss (stolen from kuat by Zsinj)
-The Reaper (flahship of Grand Moff Kaine, and later Admiral Pellaeon)
-The Terror (fitted with a cloaking device, and commanded by Admiral Sarn)
-The Vengeance (Admiral Senns flagship)
These are of course, just the named ones. We see at least another three or four in the background artwork with the Emperor at Byss, one more unnamed in Black Sword Command, and others are referenced to throughout the franchise. So yeah, SSD's were pretty much manufactured on a relatively large scale initially. Once they'd become the Imperial Remnant, they stopped making them, but several dozen were manufactured before that, implying the capacity to create more on as large a scale as needed. Four Eclipse Class SD's, which are even bigger, were destroyed before they completed construction in the comic books, again, implying that if necessary, more ships of this size could be produced.
Note that this in no way diminishes the threat an SSD encompassed. A single Super Star Destroyer was worth ten Imperial Class Star Destroyers, or up to a hundred of the smaller Victory Class ones, and was not only capable of being modified in several different ways to include miniature superlasers/more launch bays/research facilities and so on, but boasted ridiculous amounts of firepower. They were alos largely automated, meaning that not too much in the way of manpower was required to crew one effectively.
Ketara wrote:Well, just to list the SSD'S even registered in the extended universe in alphabetical order, you have:-
-Admiral Giels Flagship SSD
-The Aggressor (part of the Inner Rim fleet)
-The Allegiance (Imperial Flagship during the Battle for Mon Calamari when the Emperor was resurrected)
-The Annihilator (destroyed in battle against the Zann Consortium above Kuat shipyards)
-The Aramdia (part of Black Sword Command)
-The Arc Hammer (modified SSD that served as the base for the Dark Trooper design)
-The Dominion (destroyed by Boba Fett and co)
-The Enforcer (Under Admiral Kohrin in the Second Fleet)
-The Executor (Vaders flagship)
-The Guardian (part of the Coruscant defense fleet until absconded with by rogue imperial commander)
-The Intimidator (part of Black Sword Command)
-The Iron Fist (Warlord Zsinj's flagship)
-The Knight Hammer (constructed in secret by Delvardus, stolen and renamed by Admiral Daala)
-The Lusankya (Ysanne Isards flagship)
-The Megador (Used by Admiral Pellaeon, modified to have huge numbers of TIE launch bays)
-The Razors Kiss (stolen from kuat by Zsinj)
-The Reaper (flahship of Grand Moff Kaine, and later Admiral Pellaeon)
-The Terror (fitted with a cloaking device, and commanded by Admiral Sarn)
-The Vengeance (Admiral Senns flagship)
These are of course, just the named ones. We see at least another three or four in the background artwork with the Emperor at Byss, one more unnamed in Black Sword Command, and others are referenced to throughout the franchise. So yeah, SSD's were pretty much manufactured on a relatively large scale initially. Once they'd become the Imperial Remnant, they stopped making them, but several dozen were manufactured before that, implying the capacity to create more on as large a scale as needed. Four Eclipse Class SD's, which are even bigger, were destroyed before they completed construction in the comic books, again, implying that if necessary, more ships of this size could be produced.
Note that this in no way diminishes the threat an SSD encompassed. A single Super Star Destroyer was worth ten Imperial Class Star Destroyers, or up to a hundred of the smaller Victory Class ones, and was not only capable of being modified in several different ways to include miniature superlasers/more launch bays/research facilities and so on, but boasted ridiculous amounts of firepower. They were alos largely automated, meaning that not too much in the way of manpower was required to crew one effectively.
I would first like to applaud all the Starwars buffs for their contributions, through all the gang assault of the peoples, they still remained true to their loves. Without them this thread would totally suck...
And I would like to remind everyone about the other races of 40k. It's been mentioned before, but many people like to ignore stuff...
From what i can gather about SW and 40k, there is much they differ in. Again, this has been mentioned before. FIGHTING STYLES! In SW, many battles are short, and engagements are quick. Also, with regards to space combat, their ships are quite close to each other, much like how the spanish armada worked. In 40k, battles are long and protracted, wars of attrition are common, if not the norm. And with space combat, their ships are quite far apart, much like the british fleet (in the same time period as the spanish armada). I believe that if SW could get off one good shot on 40k and cripple them, it could go in SW's favour. BUT if it fails, then the IoM will win, for it is used to such fighting
NOW to include the other races of 40k and how they would fare, as well as to get others to consider the other races, I will take a few stabs at what SW could possibly do against the others.
ORKS: I don't know much about the orks. Don't they have some asteroid/moon base thingy? the rok?
anyways, I think ork numbers would be quite difficult to combat as well as their warp sensitive ones. from what I can gather, ork things work through their sheer will and belief it does. The warp'eads (i hope i got that right) dont' really rely on the warp but on the ork collective as a whole. Also, ork reproduction cycles could also be a problem, for even when they lose they'll leave a nasty surprise.
Tyranids: Perhaps the only force that SW should fear outright. The numbers of tyranids in hive fleet tendrils (splinters) are enough to cripple imperial systems, I would shudder to think what they would do against the SW universe. Plus all the weird 'nid space creature thingy's they employ... weird stuff...
Necrons: I hate necrons, I absolutely hate them, mostly cuz they scare me. They're basically droids, droids that can regenerate, droids that can come back (redeploy), droids with weird guns that destroy things layer by layer and blades that are so thin, it's sharp to the molecular level. (okay seriously who comes up with this stuff? I'm getting goosebumps thinking about it)
Tau: Of all the races I think SW has the greatest chance facing the tau, of course I don't know much about them, so that could be why. But then again the republic and the tau might join forces, for the greater good?
Eldar: I know even less about the eldar than I do about the tau, so no clue
Chaos:
It's hard to know what chaos (khorne, slaanesh, tzeentch, nurgle, undivided, CSM) would do. They could cause much of the SW to turn in on itself, so through subtle corruption. Outright fighting? I don't know, but all I can think of is not looking good for SW
One point I have for SW is that it's in a galaxy long time ago in a galaxy far far away. and 40k is 40k year into the future. So SW being so advanced years ago from today, could possibly have advanced quite far by the time it reached the year 40,000
I'm not sure if this is a point, for I have no proof to back it up, but doesn't the IoM, actually all of 40k, have a larger standing army/fleet than SW? well the republic at least?
also force weapons are not chopped in half by lightsabers, for it is not the blade that chops but the field around it.
And if force and pskers were not equal, tyranids could just consume them and become force users... dat's bad...
GE could only win against IOM if using ICS which is lower cannon than movies thus not used,it gives higest firepower to the SW ships(high teratons to low petatons) and that would make them equal to 40k ships then combine that with Hyperdrive and the fact that they produce ships fast and you've got a dangerous foe,but even with that 40k has Necrons and Chaos who decide overall battle.
Well, you have to admit that without any accurate maps of the Milky Way, it'd be extremely difficult to make inter-system jumps. Of course, that also means that the Imperium would have problems invading the GE without the Astronomicon.
This is true. However, I was examining it from a more strategical sense. As a War Studies student, one of the things I've learnt is the strategic potential of being able to mass your forces where the enemy is weak, and disperse them when they are not.
The Galactic Empire's ability to reshuffle their forces constantly, speedily, and reliably, as well as the communication potential of the Holonet system allowing galaxy wide communications, means that they can quickly muster the necessary forces wherever necessary in order to beat off enemy attacks. The Imperium of Man might have better starships, but if the GE can mass the entire Imperial fleet to keep destroying segments of the Imperiums fleet, they would definitely have a fighting chance. It would come down more to strategy than ship firepower in such a case.
*scratches head*
Considering the relative civility of this thread so far, I'm tempted to make a big post with my overall views of how it would play out in. Rather than doling it out piecemeal like this.
Ketara wrote:This is true. However, I was examining it from a more strategical sense. As a War Studies student, one of the things I've learnt is the strategic potential of being able to mass your forces where the enemy is weak, and disperse them when they are not.
The Galactic Empire's ability to reshuffle their forces constantly, speedily, and reliably, as well as the communication potential of the Holonet system allowing galaxy wide communications, means that they can quickly muster the necessary forces wherever necessary in order to beat off enemy attacks. The Imperium of Man might have better starships, but if the GE can mass the entire Imperial fleet to keep destroying segments of the Imperiums fleet, they would definitely have a fighting chance. It would come down more to strategy than ship firepower in such a case.
*scratches head*
Considering the relative civility of this thread so far, I'm tempted to make a big post with my overall views of how it would play out in. Rather than doling it out piecemeal like this.
Hey i study the art of war! One day I want to be a strategics Planner for Video Games as it seems there is no tactical strategy in the games at all.
Ketara wrote:This is true. However, I was examining it from a more strategical sense. As a War Studies student, one of the things I've learnt is the strategic potential of being able to mass your forces where the enemy is weak, and disperse them when they are not.
Well you've got this amateur outclassed then....but. Yes it is vital to be able to mass where your enemy is weak, and disperse, and that added mobility is a HUGE advantage, albeit one with an easy counter. If the GE is on the attack, then there will be some worlds that it needs to take be it for resupply, stepping stones, or vital parts of the Imperial defense system that need to be taken down. You can't flit around forever, and sooner or later the GE will have to bring the Imperials to a pitched battle instead of random skirmishes.
The Galactic Empire's ability to reshuffle their forces constantly, speedily, and reliably, as well as the communication potential of the Holonet system allowing galaxy wide communications, means that they can quickly muster the necessary forces wherever necessary in order to beat off enemy attacks. The Imperium of Man might have better starships, but if the GE can mass the entire Imperial fleet to keep destroying segments of the Imperiums fleet, they would definitely have a fighting chance. It would come down more to strategy than ship firepower in such a case.
However, the GE would lack this network within the Milky Way. They wouldn't have accurate maps for hyperspace travel, adn they won't have the HoloNet up and running within the Milky Way at all. It'd be like giving each and every single soldier a cell phone. Yes, they'd be able to pass information along quickly, but that system collapses when they move beyond the coverage.
This severely hampers GW mobility, as they'll have to steadily advance from their intial beachhead while they map out the area, and set up HoloNet beacons. That severely curtails their mobility, simply because they wouldn't have any of their technological basis to rely on. This applies to the Imperium to a much lesser degree, just because Astropaths can work as long as the Warp exists, and messages can be sent and received with ease. Arguably, it'd work even better in the SW galaxy which is slightly happier than the Milky Way overall.
Considering the relative civility of this thread so far, I'm tempted to make a big post with my overall views of how it would play out in. Rather than doling it out piecemeal like this.
Okay then. The Empire vs the Imperium of man. Two ruthless, technologically advanced factions clash in battle. But before we can analyse in any depth, first, the scene must be set....
Okay, comparative size. We have to assume the Empire is of a certain minimum size, or the result wouldn't even be worth talking about. As such, here's a quick merging of the two maps I've thrown together.
In this mock up I have created, the Empire(or Star Wars universe) appears at roughly a fifth the size of the Imperium(or 40K universe). I'll note here that you can disagree with this if you like, but if you do, please don't bother responding to my post at all. Why? Because to be frank, this is the scenario I'm laying out. I'm making it as reasonable as I can for a realistic confrontation between the two, and if you're going to quibble over the scale involved and tell me the Imperium of Man would 'pwn' SW because they're 'like, a gazillion times bigger', than the whole thing is moot to begin with.
So yes. the next step is to establish a time period. For the Imperium, it will be the standard 41st century. For Star Wars, it will be between the Empire Strikes Back, and Return of the Jedi. So Super Star Destroyer models are in construction, the Empire is still unified, and at its largest. Death Star technology is available, but is of course, phenomenally expensive, and the second one is under construction.
One thing I note a lot of people do is have discussion dissolve into superweapons vs superweapons. As such, I'm limiting things right now. The Sun Crusher/World Devastators/Galaxy Gun will be out of reach of the Empire at the start of the scenario. The world eater virus for the Imperium will also be forbidden. Why? Because to be frank, the Imperium of Man uses it as a last resort. If its on a war of conquest, it won't use this weapons. It is important to establish the context here with regards to super-weapons, or it turns into a superman vs batman debate.
With relative size, time period, and superweapons established, the next step is to determine where the force/warp stand in this scenario. I could say that everyone in the SW Universe is clearly a Blank, hence the lack of psychic activity, however, this would render the Empire impervious to Imperium assault, and be broken. As such, here's the concept I shall now lay out. Its completely invented by myself, but equalises and provides a coherent framework for the function of the Warp in this scenario.
Lying deep underneath the bowels of Coruscant is a massive psi-dampening device of ancient Necrontyr origin. It's the beginning of their great work to shut away the Warp forever, and is similar to the pylons on Cadia, only infinitely stronger. The result of this psi-damper, is that the closer to Coruscant you get, the weaker the Warp Becomes. So psykers on Coruscant would have all their access to the warp cut off, psykers half the SW galaxy away would only have half their relative strength and so on. This massive psi-damper is the reason daemons never manifest themselves, and psykers are an absolute rarity in the Empire, and tend to be more prolific on further out worlds. The Psi-damper does not prohibit warp travel within the Empire, but it slows it down. The closer to the psi-damper you get, the longer it takes you to travel the same amount of distance.
As said, this is entirely fictitious and invented on my part to give the SW Universe some sort of place within the 40K Universe. It also regulates the concepts of the Warp, and makes for a more realistic scenario, that doesn't involve people shouting, 'lol, my psyker would eat your jedi before he gets out his glowy stick!'
In terms of other races, both will still have the problems they've always had. So Eldar will be flying around, Orks launching Waaghs, and the Rebellion launching raids on Imperial planets. The only modification to be made will be the Emperor being able to escape the Second deathstar, as his presence is necessary to hold the Empire as a coherent entity, similar to the Emperor on Terra.
So yes. This is the scenario in which my discussion, and anyone who chooses to talk about it with me, shall take place. If you disagree with these basic premesis, then do not comment on my posts, as we will be envisaging separate incompatible scenarios, making any debate a waste of time.
I'll get to work on how I think the war would play out now...
I assume we will allow Imperial vessels that make it into the SW galaxy to fly around even without the Astronomicon? That seems fair enough to balance out the wonky world of Warp stuff within the SW galaxy.
My only other question would be the presence (or lacktherof) of daemons within the SW galaxy, and how the presence of daemons in the Milky Way affects Jedi and Sith force abilities. While these are relatively minor problems in terms of an all out war, it could become significant in certain situation, and thus enough to turn the course of the war. E.g. If a daemon comes and eats random force users mind, while said force user is involved in one of the many one-on-one-duels-to-decide-the-fate-of-the-galaxy things that SW loves so much (I am a SW fan too, so I speak in affectionate jest) it could turn into a major deciding factor.
The astronomican would function in its standard way, in order to allow Imperial ships to navigate, that's correct. However, the further into the SW Universe they go, and the closer to Coruscant, the slower Warp Travel becomes. This equalises the Empire having to send out scout probes and suchlike to be able to plot courses into the Imperium.
As said, the Psi-damper limits the influence of the Warp upon the SW Universe, making Daemon manifestations impossible. So whilst psykers become immediately far less powerful, its almost impossible for them to suffer a 'perils of the Warp' attack, as it were.
With regards to the Force, it shall be treated as a completely separate power to the Warp. However, the relative rarity of Jedi and Sith reduce them to being a minor factor in the equation.
Automatically Appended Next Post: So. First contact.
It would initially be between Rogue traders and smugglers as is so often the case. Planets on the furthest outer rim engaging in small time trade with planets only barely under the control of the Imperium. In both the case of the Imperium of man, and The Empire, recognition that the other exists would be slow. There would be minor trade (blaster rifles, agricultural equipment, rare stones, minerals, etc) occurring for many years between the two criminal elements before any kind of official recognition occurred. Who would be the first to notice?
Well, Prince Xizor of Black Sun would be the logical choice to put two and two together. He reports to the Emperor, and controls the vast Black Sun crime syndicate. He would be the first official of either side to realise that there seems to be more worlds of undiscovered allegiance lying outside the control of the Empire. However, in keeping with his personality, before reporting this to the Emperor, he would seek to wring maximum advantage from it, and garner all available knowledge first. Therefore I could see a small fleet of smugglers/pirates setting out to see what they could see.
The nearest point of contact would be the Ghoul stars if the SW universe lies in the region of space indicated in the modified map I gave. To give a quote:-
This was the very first Crusade launched by High Marshal Helbrecht. This was a dangerous decision as no Imperial expedition had ever returned from this desolate region of space. The Black Templars were intent on finally vanquishing the 'Cythor Fiends' of the Ghoul Stars. The battles were bloody but decisive, and after eight years the the xeno population was all but destroyed, and the Black Templars began to push in towards the alien home world. Upon reaching the core systems, they were found to be eerily empty. No trace of the aliens could be found, but before a proper investigation could be launched, a desperate call for help came from the besieged world of Armageddon. High Marshal Helbrecht immediately contacted Marshals Ricard and Amalrich, and began to co-ordinate a massive attack on the Ork Waaagh. Three Black Templar Crusades descended on the Hive World of Armageddon. The Third War for Armageddon had begun.
To add some history to the scenario, we can presume the outer rim fleet had already been there, and destroyed the worlds of the Xenos before the black Templars could arrive. After Helbrecht and co. left for Armageddon, we can see colonists from the Empire slowly beginning to trickle into the region. The nearest Imperial presence would be at the close by Gates of Varl, which was written in the 40K fluff to guard against "the quiescent perils of the Ctan". This ties in with the concept of their being a C'Tan artifact upon Coruscant.
Therefore first contact would occur roughly in this region here:-
Alright then. Sounds fair to me, and I'm happy with the set up so far.
One thing about the Maps that seems curious is that, the SW Galaxy seems to be a bit more compact overall, wheras the Imperium is spread thinly all over the galaxy. This could prove to be quite significant as time goes on.....
Agreed with you on the Jedi issue, but I would like to point out that while Jedi/Sith are relatively few in number, they still tend to be found where the fighting is thickest, and thus have an impact far out of proportion to what their small numbers suggest....so they could be important in some sense.
Edit: Oh, now this is interesting. I was assuming seperate galaxies with wormhole...but this. This is much more interesting. So far so good Ketara...all seems normal and makes a lot of sense.
I think that Star wars would win in skirmishes and raids, but if it comes down to holding a planet or area of space then the IoM would win. This means that the IoM would own planets and key systems, but travel routes and area between planets would be owned by the empire.
Ketara wrote:I was actually considering the mobility from a defensive point of view, as opposed to an offensive one.
Sorry. I should have clarified that.
mobility certaintly is an advantage, but it is only a relative mobility.
the IoM takes longer(on average) to jump from system to system with a small chance of it being just as fast or faster. there is the small possability of an IoM fleet arriving before it leaves as a result of warp fluctuations.
Hyperdrives are faster and more reliable.
the disadvantage with hyperdrives is that they can't simply jump from any system to any other system. they need to "Connect the dots" with their jumps. the IoM has no such problems. the IoM could attack the GE from any angle depending on Warp Fluctuations.
since the Warp doesn't get used in the SW galaxy it would be relativly calm for Warp Jumps.
nosferatu1001 wrote:BoS - not backed away from plasma = fusion. They really are. More than one description has them using fusion as a reason, then there is what happens when you rupture containment (you get a hot plasma leakage, behaving exactly like one would expect it to behave)
The only description you've ever provided from a GW was a nontechnical character offhandedly using the word 'fusion', not a technical character or any sort of behind the scenes explanation. You repeating 'they're fusion' is only relevant to you, GW clearly doesn't support your claim. The fact that plasma comes out if you rupture containment indicates that the reactor has plasma in it, not that it uses fusion.
You have also yet to postulate an alternative source: it isnt AM, nor Vacuum (aka zero point) energy, but an energy source derived directly from matter. the MOST efficient eneergy source is....fusion. So either it is fusion or a less efficient energy conversion system. Either way the figures fail.
It is some kind of power source outside of current science, much like adamantium, void shields, and warp drives don't fit anywhere into current science. There is no rule that science fiction reactors and drives must be within current physics, and typically they perform feats that don't fit anything you could do with real physics. The fact that the figures are not consistent with a fusion reactor (or indeed any realistic reactor) is good evidence that the reactors do not use fusion, I'm not sure why you keep repeating it because it supports my position.
The reactors in Dreadnoughts are said multiple times to be Fusion. IIRCPA is powered by Fusion as well.
if the IoM can build a Fusion reactor small enough to fit in a suit of PA then imagine how much power could come out of one the size of a small town.
We arn't 100% sure how much power actually comes out of a fusion reactor because, well, we haven't built a fully functioning one yet. Fission bombs arn't as efficient as a controlled reaction in a modern fission reacter(% of mass to energy)
Grey Templar wrote:the IoM certaintly does use Fusion in some areas.
Their ship's main reactors are what we're talking about.
We arn't 100% sure how much power actually comes out of a fusion reactor because, well, we haven't built a fully functioning one yet. Fission bombs arn't as efficient as a controlled reaction in a modern fission reacter(% of mass to energy)
We are 100% sure what the theoretical maximum power you can get from a fusion reactor is because we understand the physics behind fusion reactions, and it's far less than what you can get from a matter-antimatter reactor since you don't get complete conversion of matter to energy in fusion and do in matter-antimatter collisions. Either one is way below what is needed to power Imperial weapons and drives by a huge margin. The fact that you don't know much about the science doesn't change how the numbers work out, and most SF ships don't fit modern science.
BearersOfSalvation wrote:The only description you've ever provided from a GW was a nontechnical character offhandedly using the word 'fusion', not a technical character or any sort of behind the scenes explanation. You repeating 'they're fusion' is only relevant to you, GW clearly doesn't support your claim. The fact that plasma comes out if you rupture containment indicates that the reactor has plasma in it, not that it uses fusion.
The problem that we have here is that there are two parties trying to argue on a point of similarity. As you say there is a non-technical character using the word fusion. However is there a technical character saying anything to the opposite? Or even any such declaration of how they do it?
The situation that Nos, Keezus and myself are trying to settle surrounds one of the cornerstones of the "40K rules all" threads is this.
40K proponent.
Our weapons do X.
SciFi proponent
But your powerplants cant create that amount of power. Physics tells us otherwise
40K proponent
Doesn't matter about physics, as our weapons do X our engines supply enough power.
Compare against
SciFi Proponent.
Our weapons do X.
40K proponent
But your powerplants cant create that amount of power. Physics tells otherwise
SciFi Proponent
WTF
AndrewC wrote:The problem that we have here is that there are two parties trying to argue on a point of similarity. As you say there is a non-technical character using the word fusion. However is there a technical character saying anything to the opposite? Or even any such declaration of how they do it?
Nope, they're simply referred to as 'plasma reactors', as far as I've seen there is no explanation for how they fit into real physics. Just like void shields, adamantium, the ship's regular drives, warp drives, anti-grav, or any of a host of other things. And just like the magical reactors and/or engines in most SF. And there's clear evidence that they aren't simple fusion reactors, as looking at what they do in stories shows that they produce far more power than any theoretical reactor we can come up with.
You're trying to say that we have to throw out all of the descriptions of what kind of energies 40k ships can throw around, including any inferences from BFG rules, all the black library books on ships, and anything else, but that we can't possibly discount a single offhand use of a technical term by a nontechnical character. It doesn't make any sense, doesn't lead to any good discussion, and you run into the same problem examining most high-energy SF universes. Pretty much every SF universe either sticks to very hard science, so has nothing like star trek, star wars, B5, firefly, etc., or it does stuff that's completely outside the realm of known physics.
BearersOfSalvation wrote:Nope, they're simply referred to as 'plasma reactors', as far as I've seen there is no explanation for how they fit into real physics. Just like void shields, adamantium, the ship's regular drives, warp drives, anti-grav, or any of a host of other things. And just like the magical reactors and/or engines in most SF. And there's clear evidence that they aren't simple fusion reactors, as looking at what they do in stories shows that they produce far more power than any theoretical reactor we can come up with.
You're trying to say that we have to throw out all of the descriptions of what kind of energies 40k ships can throw around, including any inferences from BFG rules, all the black library books on ships, and anything else, but that we can't possibly discount a single offhand use of a technical term by a nontechnical character. It doesn't make any sense, doesn't lead to any good discussion, and you run into the same problem examining most high-energy SF universes. Pretty much every SF universe either sticks to very hard science, so has nothing like star trek, star wars, B5, firefly, etc., or it does stuff that's completely outside the realm of known physics.
No, what I'm trying to say that each and every universe should have the same level playing field. You can't disallow an explanation from one franchise because of terminology, but rule it valid for another.
In this case "fusion" vs AM/M, 0point or any other.
Limit one, or in this case 'unlimit' then you have to unlimit them all.
Because one poster claimed that 40k ships can not possibly have the yield they're described as having because at one point Imperial power was described as being 'fusion', and fusion (as we know it now) can't create that power output, therefore the yield of weapons is wrong, and Star Wars wins.
Meh,Star Wars only wins if the ICS is in play.
Even then we have Chaos and Necrons.
Nemesis shows us a planet who's surface has been glassed and oceans boiled of off and all that was a restrain other wise they would rip the planet apart.
I have begin to use BFG numbers combined with 610 gigaton or 560 gigaton torpedo.
Asherian Command wrote:Wait so we are discussing engines?
Power generation as for speeds they are highly inconsistent,we have Andy Hoare single Gs from Rouge Trader novels and RPG(RPG which contradicts itsellf on several times in the book),Dan Abnett and James Swallow high c fractional speeds.
Then we have massive low end from Angel of Darkness(I think that it was that book) where they need several days to get to another planet.
It really depends on personal preference.
Asherian Command wrote:Wait so we are discussing engines?
Not really, I am trying to discuss the basis from which a comparison can be made.
As Ivan said, the source material is highly inconsistent from rule books to short stories to Forgeworld IA books. Pick your source and go for it. What I'm trying to say is that an exemption only applied to one side is arbitrary and makes any such comparision impossible.
I use this for firepower,BFG and Torpedo yield from Space Hulk.The same torpedo is worth 1 point of damage.
Assuming that one combat round in Battlefleet Gothic is a single minute, a single weapons battery has between 600-1200 gigatons of firepower in that same amount of time. A Nova Cannon has 4800 gigatons, spread in a wide radius, with an additional 600 inflicted to the ship it hits.
Then we have the horrible quote that Battleships can withstand gigawats which could be interpreted as gigatons.
Just to tell you guys this is not my strong area. I'll let it up to you Ivan and Andrew. See I am a 40k expert when it comes tech but not when it comes to the engineering aspect and fluff wise i know alot and if we are talking about Marines I could chip in.
Asherian Command wrote:Just to tell you guys this is not my strong area. I'll let it up to you Ivan and Andrew. See I am a 40k expert when it comes tech but not when it comes to the engineering aspect and fluff wise i know alot and if we are talking about Marines I could chip in.
If you really want to get in this kind of debates go to SpaceBattles.com,but beware that is one of the most ruthless forums.
Off-topic:What do you think about my new avatar?
Asherian Command wrote:Just to tell you guys this is not my strong area. I'll let it up to you Ivan and Andrew. See I am a 40k expert when it comes tech but not when it comes to the engineering aspect and fluff wise i know alot and if we are talking about Marines I could chip in.
If you really want to get in this kind of debates go to SpaceBattles.com,but beware that is one of the most ruthless forums.
Off-topic:What do you think about my new avatar?
I've been to spacebattles.com It scared the living crap out of me. I saw a thread about the Stargate vs 40k And omg wtf is that?
Off-topic: looks good!
Asherian Command wrote:Just to tell you guys this is not my strong area. I'll let it up to you Ivan and Andrew. See I am a 40k expert when it comes tech but not when it comes to the engineering aspect and fluff wise i know alot and if we are talking about Marines I could chip in.
If you really want to get in this kind of debates go to SpaceBattles.com,but beware that is one of the most ruthless forums.
Off-topic:What do you think about my new avatar?
I've been to spacebattles.com It scared the living crap out of me. I saw a thread about the Stargate vs 40k And omg wtf is that?
Off-topic: looks good!
Then you saw White_rabbit,he's one of 40k experts,same matter for Captain Orsai and Drachychen(can't spell it properly,but the name comes from Abbadon's sword).
And what did scare you?
Asherian Command wrote:Just to tell you guys this is not my strong area. I'll let it up to you Ivan and Andrew. See I am a 40k expert when it comes tech but not when it comes to the engineering aspect and fluff wise i know alot and if we are talking about Marines I could chip in.
If you really want to get in this kind of debates go to SpaceBattles.com,but beware that is one of the most ruthless forums.
Off-topic:What do you think about my new avatar?
I've been to spacebattles.com It scared the living crap out of me. I saw a thread about the Stargate vs 40k And omg wtf is that?
Off-topic: looks good!
Then you saw White_rabbit,he's one of 40k experts,same matter for Captain Orsai and Drachychen(can't spell it properly,but the name comes from Abbadon's sword).
And what did scare you?
It was a stargate vs 40k vs starwars.
And stargate won somehow. I have no idea how! Its not even possible!
Anyway if we involved starwar's very starkiller agianst..... wait for it.... Alaric who would win?
Asherian Command wrote:
It was a stargate vs 40k vs starwars.
And stargate won somehow. I have no idea how! Its not even possible!
Anyway if we involved starwar's very starkiller agianst..... wait for it.... Alaric who would win?
Stargate has I win buttons like time dilation fields.
Asherian Command wrote:Just to tell you guys this is not my strong area. I'll let it up to you Ivan and Andrew. See I am a 40k expert when it comes tech but not when it comes to the engineering aspect and fluff wise i know alot and if we are talking about Marines I could chip in.
If you really want to get in this kind of debates go to SpaceBattles.com,but beware that is one of the most ruthless forums.
Off-topic:What do you think about my new avatar?
I've been to spacebattles.com It scared the living crap out of me. I saw a thread about the Stargate vs 40k And omg wtf is that?
Off-topic: looks good!
Then you saw White_rabbit,he's one of 40k experts,same matter for Captain Orsai and Drachychen(can't spell it properly,but the name comes from Abbadon's sword).
And what did scare you?
It was a stargate vs 40k vs starwars.
And stargate won somehow. I have no idea how! Its not even possible!
Anyway if we involved starwar's very starkiller agianst..... wait for it.... Alaric who would win?
Stargate has I win buttons like time dilation.
Yeah but they were agrueing about o'neil vs a Space marine What will a regular gun do against a cermite? I mean seriously!
ok bringing back the whole warp travel in the Star Wars Universe. given that we are going with the warp is present in the SW galaxy then we must assume that the Astronomican's light can not reach the SW galaxy. Remember the Astronomican can only reach about 50k away from earth. Now remember that the distance between galaxies are measured in the MILLIONS of light years. Even our closest Galactic neighbor the andromeda galaxy is about 2 millionish lightyears away. Way outside of the range of the astronomican. Just saying
AndrewC wrote:Chris, just read your location, been to the Secret Bunker yet?
Andrew
No I have not unfortunately....I'm planning on doing so at some point. Maybe during Christmas break after exams.....
But Blarg, remember. The Astronomicon doesn't make Warp travel possible, it makes long range Warp travel possible. So Imperial ships could easily fly around blind, they'd just be unable to travel very far without having to get out to figure where the hell they actually are. Although, I would think that without daemons, Chaos Gods and all other kinds of nastiness the Warp might be calm enough to not need the Astronomicon.
You have to remember. The Astronomicon is basically an interstellar light house. You can travel without it, but it's more dangerous. However, if the water is calm and the coast is safe....who needs a lighthouse anyway?
yes but remember navigators wont go beyond the light of the astronomican, or of they do its for very short distances. Meh we shall find out eventually. I would just want to know how long ( assuming now fast forward to getting there millions of years after they left or reversal of time getting there before they left ) of a warp flight it would be to traves such a HUGE space of millions if not billions of light years depending on how far into the universe the Star wars galaxy is. For all we know the 40k galaxy could be seeing the Star Wars as they were millions of years ago due to the finite speed of light.
Blarg21 wrote:yes but remember navigators wont go beyond the light of the astronomican, or of they do its for very short distances. Meh we shall find out eventually. I would just want to know how long ( assuming now fast forward to getting there millions of years after they left or reversal of time getting there before they left ) of a warp flight it would be to traves such a HUGE space of millions if not billions of light years depending on how far into the universe the Star wars galaxy is. For all we know the 40k galaxy could be seeing the Star Wars as they were millions of years ago due to the finite speed of light.
Remember that Warp Distance doesn't equal Physical distance.
it could just as easily be a short trip and if the warp is calm in the Star Wars galaxy...
Remember that, before the Heresy, Warp Travel was realitivly simple with little danger. Towards the end of the Crusade the warp was becoming more turbulant(why the Emperor was working on the Webway entrance) as Chaos took notice of Mankind again.
AndrewC wrote:No, what I'm trying to say that each and every universe should have the same level playing field. You can't disallow an explanation from one franchise because of terminology, but rule it valid for another. In this case "fusion" vs AM/M, 0point or any other. Limit one, or in this case 'unlimit' then you have to unlimit them all.
What do you mean by 'you' there? Since you're quoting one of my posts, I presume it's directed at me personally, but I have no idea how what you're saying here makes any sense as a response to anything I've written. Can you quote the post where you believe I've tried to limit one universe, or failed to unlimit them all? If not, then can you make some connection between what you said and something I wrote, because I don't see why you're writing as though you disagree with me when all I've done is disagree with some people who consistently and insistently get 40k background wrong about that background.
I've pointed out that 40k plasma reactors are clearly not fusion reactors as GW doesn't actually say they're fusion reactors and they clearly do things fusion reactors don't do. I've pointed out that the argument 'they use plasma, they must be fusion, therefore 40k ships are limited to fusion power outputs' doesn't make any sense as an argument. And I've pointed out some real physics bits on laser ranges and power outputs. As far as I remember, I haven't even commented on SW directly, so I'm not sure how you think I'm trying to limit them or failing to unlimit them.
ya, the sheer populace of the Imperium is insane. The fact that the republic almost lost to a droid army cuz of numbers brings to light that the Imperium has to fend off forces of billions for a 'nid invasion for instance. If the Imperium can do that, and still recover. Thats evidence that they could just throw themselves at the SW universe until they were all dead.
Automatically Appended Next Post: ya, the sheer populace of the Imperium is insane. The fact that the republic almost lost to a droid army cuz of numbers brings to light that the Imperium has to fend off forces of billions for a 'nid invasion for instance. If the Imperium can do that, and still recover. Thats evidence that they could just throw themselves at the SW universe until they were all dead.
Now more proofs of gigaton to teraton firepower(and one from Nemesis which is high end for 40k in my opinion).
A Nova cannon is a huge weapon, normally mounted in the prow of a ship so that the recoil it generates can be compensated for by the vessel's engines. It fires a proejctile at incredible velocity, using graviometric impellers to accelerate it to close to light speed. The projectile implodes at a preset distance after firing, unleashing a force more potent than a dozen plasma bombs.
Assume only (since it could be so much higher) 20% C for the projectile, and that it weighs only 1000kg. We still get two gigatons from the projectile from KE alone, disregarding the explosion that is more potent than a dozen plasma bombs (see: 1 OoM higher).
Caves of Ice: Pages 166-167
Nothing in our inventory would even come close to doing the job, but an astropathic message to the nearest naval unit would bring a task force here within weeks, and a flotilla of battleships ought to be enough to level the continent. A couple of barrages from their lance batteries would be enough to excise this cancer, however deeply it was buried.
Of course the planet would be rendered uninhabitable for generations, but no one in their right mind would be willing to set foot here once the necron presence was known in any case, so the question was moot.
Page 106 also specifies that the ice is "tens of kilometers" deep, and that's what the Necrons are buried under. So in the very least, the orbital weapons can (in a couple Barrages, let's say under a dozen) melt through 20+ kilometers of ice, wipe out the Necron facility, and as a side-effect render the planet uninhabitable for generations. I'd say this supports more than megaton-level broadsides.
Battlefleet Gothic: Page 78
The attacking fleet is escorting Extermiantors, ships capable of laying waste to entire planetary populations or even obliterating all life on a world in a matter of hours.
All life killed in a matter of hours. In the very least, I find it very unlikely that a fleet that's sum armory is maybe ten or twenty gigatons could nuke everything to hell and back. Especially considering the presence of Hive Shields that can withstand constant bombardment from thousands of enemy artillery pieces for days.
Originally Posted by Battlefleet Gothic: Somewhere (May be one of the supplement books)
DOMINATOR BATTLESHIP
The Dominator comes from the same family of ships as the Tyrant and Emperor. It is armed with the awesome inferno cannon. This massive cannon is mounted along the entire length of the Dominator's hull. The huge shells are loaded at the rear of the ship in a cavernous chamber positioned above the roaring fury of the Dominator's plasma drives.
Each inferno cannon shell is the size of a tall building, its warhead packed with explosive. The shells are moved from the ship's magazine on great tracked transport vehicles that crawl along echoing tunnels down the length of the ship. The shells are loaded by powerful winches, guided by an army of engineers whose prayers ring through the chambers. As the huge breech closes, the gun crews leave the chamber - no man could withstand at short range the awesome concussion produced as the shell is fired.
The shell accelerates down the long barrel of the cannon, reaching a searing velocity that hurls it out into space. The whole ship shudders with the recoil of the cannon - indeed, it is constructed with massively reinforced bulkheads and hull supports to withstand the powerful shockwaves.
When the shell detonates it releases a ball of radioactive fire that forms a sphere of destruction kilometres across. Not only the cannon's target, but any ship close to it receives a deadly blast of intense heat, energised particles and huge jagged shards of shrapnel larger than most sub-stellar spaceships.
The inferno cannon is affectionately known as the Planet Buster by a Dominator's crew because it is often used in planetary assaults to rain fire down on enemy cities. A single shell is powerful enough to destroy all but the largest cities, leaving only flattened ruins around a crater many hundreds of metres deep. When an enemy planet learns that a Dominator has entered the star system, it is rare for a complete and unconditional surrender not to follow swiftly.
Yep, typical megaton weaponry leaves holes hundreds of meters deep in the ground underneath the city they were fired against.
Rogue Trader: Page 98
In theory there is no reason why any of the grenade and missile types shouldn't be available in larger support versions. It would be possible to manufacture a missile of any size: from a weapon little larger than a normal launcher shell, to one capable of wiping out a city, province or continent.
It is a possibility for 40K ships to bear missiles that can wipe out a province / continent.
****************
Tyranid Codex 4th Edition: Page 21
Using their ship's teleporter array, the Deathwatch then sent megatons of high-grade explosives into the heart of a nearby moon, Gheist. The resultant explosion not only destroyed the moon, but also diverted the passing space hulk's course deep into the empire of the Orks of Octavius.
Only megatonnes fired...
Through a teleporting device. IoM cannot send several gigatons worth of ordinance through teleporters.
Nemesisage 255
Dagonet was all but dead now, her surface a mosaic of burning cities, churned oceans
and glassed wastelands. And yet this was a show of restraint from the Sons of Horus;
had they wished it, the world could have suffered the fate of many that had defied the
Warmaster, cracked open by cyclonic torpedo barrages shot into key tectonic target
sites, remade into a sphere of molten earth.
More proof.
These enough examples for you to support gigaton-plus bombardments?
And the point was that *none* of that constitutes proof, because BL authors say they make things up for the story, or that they are nto "objectively" true, just recollections or observations of the protagonists involved.
Saying "X was blown up by weapon Z, therefore this PROVES Y yield" is meaningless when BL have essentially stated:
- X may not have blown up at all, or even been there
- Z may not have existed
- Z may not have been the only weapon used, just the only one observed / recalled by the viewer.
And so on.
BL books do not constitute proof in any meaningful sense, because BL authors have stated they are not "the truth"
Even though it doesn't provide the 'truth' it does indeed tell us what is not the truth. Not to mention, you have to provide evidence other than 'there is a possibility that it might be wrong' before utterly dismissing such evidence. This isn't a jury trial.
E.g. If a BL book says that an Imperisl ship destroys an asteroid, or obliterates a city from orbit, that shows that there weaponary has a minimum level, and combined with other evidence allows us to place yields within certain reasonable limits.
More importantly though, if we say BL books can't count, then how can we really debate? I can just as easily say the SW film were OBVIOUSLY edited by a third party, so the Death Star CLEARLY can't destroy a planet, not to mention the EU has an extreme Rebellion/New Republic bias, so is an untrustworthy source.
We have to assume SOMETHING is reasonably allowable as a source for a debate to occur...and for 40k, that's assuming that the BL books are, if not perfect, at least reasonable as sources.
But the point was you cannot state the levels of certainty that posters have been.
Plus it isnt even a "it might be wrong" possibilitiy - it's "this might never have happened and was just the lucid fiction of the protagonist while drinking amasec at a bar" - so to assert 100% truth values, which is what posters ARE doing, really stretches it.
Plus your counter examples really arent counter examples: the BL position is an official stance by the authors. Your examples are not at all analogous to this.
I am not saying something isnt allowable, it should just be tempered - which it isnt being.
[it also suggests that assuming some super science for power generation is stretching things a little If the books and physics disagree, and you KNOW that, at best, they are embellishments of "truth", that perhaps physics may have a say....]
You have a point, but even assuming a degree of embellishment, the destruction of a city or other significant object can be assumed to be true. If we assume the BL books are in universe documentation, written by a lay viewer, he/she would still be able to say 'the shiny laser hit the big rock, and the big rock went boom', and be perfectly correct. He's seen the effect of the weapon, and has described the results for us.
A more physics inclined reader can then take the descritptions, and juse them to try and figure out a minimum power level for what happened. I personally think that a good example would be if I were to describe a nuclear ground detonation. If I were to describe the crater it left behind as 'as deep as a football field' then someone could generate a rough estimate of how big said nuke was, even if I'm incapable of giving such a definition.
It's true that my counter examples aren't perfect.....to my knowledge no SW author has ever said 'my chars could just be making this up to mess with yah', but the point still stands that we have no other sources to corrobarate with, so determining what's true and what's artistic embellishment in either case is near impossible.
And on the real physics thing....so many things in 40k wouldn't work in reality. Chainswords for one, but we have descriptions of them doing specific things, and those specific things (even assuming embellishment) are beyond modern physics enough that we have to assume some kind of futuristic work around for the problem, that we (and most likely the narrator) has no idea about.
The link was in the ST vs 40k thread a while back, and my seearch-fu is weak (assuming search works)
I thought they had "fixed" chainswords in the Firedrake novel by giving them different settings based on what you were facing - unarmoured vs ceramite, etc?
Oh yeah, I remember that....I started that thread I think.
Well, I'm not sure...the only 40k novels I've read are Gaunt's Ghosts and the first book of Eisenhorn....but I was more referring to it should be impossible for a chainsword to cut deep, thanks to the guard on top. Not to mention, the sheer difficulty in controlling such a weapon one handed.....
Bah, you should read more - Eisenhorn gets brilliant, and Ravenor is fairly twisted as well....
How would the top edge guard stop it cutting in? As long as it is past the median point at the top edge you would have a cutting edge all the way down.
it is true that Chainswords couldn't cut very deep, but they don't have to.
they are designed to cause massive external bleeding.
Blunt objects can cut through a human body when enough force is applied. if you look at authentic Medievil weaponry you will see that 2 handed swords weren't sharp at all. you could run your hand down the entire blade and have nothing happen. it was tapered to a dull point and yet these weapons were capable of cutting a person in 2 from collerbone to pelvis.
the Weight and force behind the weapon is a major factor in cutting power. the wedge that is sharpened into the blade(still pretty dull) is forced through soft flesh easily and actually have a greater chance of penetrating bone that a sharp impliment.
the Trauma of the blunt object causes more trauma in other areas of the body. there isn't bleeding just at the cut, but in the whole vicinity.
if your arm was cut off with a Katana(the sharpest blade ever developed) you would have a decent chance of survival if your arm was patched up quickly. if it had been a Zwihandar you would have to get patched up very quickly and you would be suffering massive trauma.
the Katana bisects flesh perfectly. a duller edge might take a few inch chunk out. if you held up the severed Katana arm the 2 pieces would match almost perfectly. an arm cut off with a Zwihandar would be absolutly mangled, the surface area of damage would be far greater.
Plus holding a high torpue chainsword in one hand seems like a recipe for disaster. I assume the blades have VERY low friction to avoid it twisting you round rather than cutting....
BearersOfSalvation wrote:What do you mean by 'you' there?...
I've pointed out that 40k plasma reactors are clearly not fusion reactors as GW doesn't actually say they're fusion reactors and they clearly do things fusion reactors don't do. I've pointed out that the argument 'they use plasma, they must be fusion, therefore 40k ships are limited to fusion power outputs' doesn't make any sense as an argument. And I've pointed out some real physics bits on laser ranges and power outputs. As far as I remember, I haven't even commented on SW directly, so I'm not sure how you think I'm trying to limit them or failing to unlimit them.
No, not "you" in particular, "you" as in one side of a discussion.
There was a previous thread in which weapons yield was a major factor to the discussion. One side, 40K, was limited by the stance, our background says we have this ability, the other side, ST in this case, was our photons have this yeild, to which the response was well physics says you can't regardless of what your background says.
I think it was actually me who made that claim, and the situations are vastly different.
In Star Trek, there are specifics given on the yield of a photon torpedo. I believe it's....12 something kg of antimatter combined with 12 kg of matter? I can't recall off the top of my head, but no matter. The point is that there they have specifics, and those specifics lead to a conclusion defined by physics, since you can't change the amount of energy released. Now, if the warhead of a photon was described as say.....10 kemtquads of antimatter, then we'd have to default to what's on screen since we have no idea what a kemtquad is. However, we know what a kilogram is, and we know how many atoms of antimatter in a kilogram, and we know how much energy is released when an atom of antimatter and matter collide and react. That information leads physics to put a maximum cap on how far up the ladder a photon torp detonation can go. (That's the trouble with using technobabble...it sounds cool, but you then try to make real physics fit, and bad things happen )
Now, in 40k, we have no such limits. They don't say that the main reactor of a torpedo or of a battleship is a fusion reactor with x, y, and z specifications. If they'd done that, then I'm whole heartedly in support of that being the upper limit. However, they don't do that, instead, they say it has a 'plasma reactor' or whatever it is (plasma fusion? I don't know), and list what it can do. We don't know anything about this reactor except what it can do. As such, we can't try to apply real world physics to it, since we don't know what to apply.
nosferatu1001 wrote:And the point was that *none* of that constitutes proof, because BL authors say they make things up for the story, or that they are nto "objectively" true, just recollections or observations of the protagonists involved.
Saying "X was blown up by weapon Z, therefore this PROVES Y yield" is meaningless when BL have essentially stated:
- X may not have blown up at all, or even been there
- Z may not have existed
- Z may not have been the only weapon used, just the only one observed / recalled by the viewer.
And so on.
BL books do not constitute proof in any meaningful sense, because BL authors have stated they are not "the truth"
Maybe in your mind,BL novels are used to do calcs and the entire debate community does that.
Besides you have ignored feats outside BL novels.
Novels are representation of reallity of their respective universe and are used.
ChrisWWII wrote:I think it was actually me who made that claim, and the situations are vastly different.
Yes and no. I think a degree of flexibility has to be granted to both sides. The torpedo is listed as containing 1.5kg AM, but rates the explosion as variable isotons. No-one knows what an isoton is so there is a reversion to present day physics and the conversion of M/AM as the limit. Now one small niggle with that was that there was a denial of the upper figures but not with the lower figures, ie using 1.5kg of AM as a firework.
We have the same problem with some of the 40K tech. Power reactors seem to be referred to as plasma/fusion interchangeable in some sources and not referred to at all in others. So people revert to what is understandable (me) and use plasma/fusion/fission as a benchmark. I do insist that any meaningful comparision has to be an acceptance at face value of any 'inhouse' abilities without saying present day physics would prohibit such an ability.
Cheers
Andrew
OT, when you get to the bunker, try and sit through the 50/60s nuclear safety films, the sheer audacity of what was presented is breathtaking, especially when it was all a lie.
@Andrew C
Thanks.
As for the firepower I've provided a ton evidence for gigaton+ firepower,but again we have low ends like Execution Hour and Shadow Point and in the end the personal preference matters.
Automatically Appended Next Post: The novels are published by Games Workshop using their jealously guarded IP. Why wouldn't we consider them accurate? Background material changes invalidate stuff in the rule books and codexes so why should novels be subjected to being thrown out as a category for the same reason?
xXSir MontyXx wrote:ya, the sheer populace of the Imperium is insane. The fact that the republic almost lost to a droid army cuz of numbers brings to light that the Imperium has to fend off forces of billions for a 'nid invasion for instance. If the Imperium can do that, and still recover. Thats evidence that they could just throw themselves at the SW universe until they were all dead.
There was alot more political action going on at the time causing troops to literally be thrown away and seeing as Palpatine was, again, quite literally in command of the two sides he was just wearing both sides down to the nubs in order to have a smooth transition to power. The entirety of the Clone Wars was nothing more then a power play several hundred years in the making.
Chris - except they then use technobabble to say the explosion is "enhanced" - which is also how the variable yield must occur, as takng containment off a lump of AM should yield the same explosion no matter what you do....
and dont even get started on quantum torpedoes, which appear to deal with zero point energy but need to "charge up" somehow....
IvanTIH - because BL have stated that the books can be distortions of real events, or even entirely made up? the "entire debate community" can be wrong, you know, it IS possible to challenge the basis of calculation and show that even the authors are saying they cannot be trusted as any measure of objective truth - it is at best subjective and thus liable to distortion.
To then basis entire reams of calculations from that as entirely reliable "proof", with no caveats, is a dangerous way to debate. Knowing the limitiations of your own evidence is rather crucial, surely?
We've also provided evidnce that, using matter energy conversion that can be no better than fusion (as the next step up is AM/M, we know they use "fuel" of some source so it isnt zero point (which wouldnt use plasma anyway) and so on) the energy outputs you have calculated are impossible to produce - 1 solar mass output from something 0.1% SM is not even close. This, combined with the FACT that you have been told that the books are not necessarily the truth tells you that perhaps, JUST PERHAPS, your figures might be a little on the optimistic side?
OR, you could respond to this with another snide remark. Up to you.
(PS: the novels are published by Black Library. Not GW.)
Automatically Appended Next Post: Edit: to further add to the rediculous side: the suppsoed size and weight of torpedos, and the loadout each ship is suppsoed to have, results in the entire volumne of the ship needed JUST TO CARRY the torpedos. WHich again we know to be false.
Lending more credence to the unreliable nature of 40k "physics", surely?
you do realize how large IoM ships are right? a Cobra class Escort is slightly larger then an ISD.
Torpedos arn't that big, even if they have massivly powerful warheads and weight doesn't matter in zero G.
IoM ships do run out of ammo quite often(something that doesn't happen in SW very much BTW) and need to resupply.
BL books may be "false" events, propaganda as to what happened, but weapon outputs can still be held to be accurate. the realitive power of the same weapon doesn't vary accross different books enough to cast suspicion on the yields. i belive many of the Calcs are based on the lower end results anyway.
Well, speeds of ships certainly do vary - for example I have never seen "FTL" used outside of Warp travel, yet one poster is claiming they have it, and some books seem to give high-C capable craft when other books have days to move across systems / out to stable warp gates.
YEs, I know how big the ships are - hence the 1SM vs 0.1%SM comparison. I'll have to dig the figures out but it was a claimed count of torpedos fired in an engagement that, if true, resulted in most of the ship being storage for them. Torpedos are freakinghuge in the fluff, 10s of metres, even bigger for the StSpace ones (see storm of Iron)
Weapon yields cannot be held to be accurate if the event you are basing the yield on is not known to be true. For example if you determine X Gtonne yield based on asteroid being YKm across being vaped then if it turned out the asteroid was only "really" Y/3KM across then your calculations are now more than one order of magnitude off.
WHich was the point: known science gives an upper bound on "matter" based energy production that is not even close to the yields being calculated from BL and other sources for shield output - by many orders of magnitude. Even M/AM wouldnt be enough if the high end figures are "accurate". Which lends credence to:
BL writers dont know gak about physics, they just write what is cool
Hence trying to make an accurate "what would happen" is nigh on impossible and ultiimately futile.
Since the exact same argument against writers understanding realism applies for Star Wars, wouldn't you just have to go on scale and the 'Good Big Man beats Good Small Man' adage?
An IoM capital ship can rip apart an IoM Destroyer in a single partial salvo. Since GE capital ships are the size of IoM Destroyers then even slightly superior tech won't offset the disgusting advantage in scale.
Similarly very few conflicts are resolvable only by fleet actions in orbit; to truly take and hold territory ground actions are necessary and there again Star Wars simply has nothing that even begins to compare to the mass troop warfare commonly waged by IoM; thus even if the space fight is 'too close to call' due to technical limitations and writer liberties, wouldn't the disadvantage in ground capabilities by the SW universe put them at a significant burden of proof?
SW universe has main characters that have the "invincible" special rule active everytime... so there isn't any hope for IoM... a fething Skywalker is enough to wipe out the whole cadian defense system.
And don't forget that also Trekkers could be a menace. Jean-luc picard would use his coolness to induce the entire imperium to rebel against the adeptus ( and he has a cell phone sized deice capable of unlimited distruction ... yes, phasers would be S10 AP1 range Unlimited in 40k)
Don't named characters always just cancel out? Vader vs Marneus Calgar, Mara Jade vs Shrike, Emperor versus Tigurius, Newly Made Up guy vs Generic Chapter Master ...
nosferatu1001 wrote:Well, speeds of ships certainly do vary - for example I have never seen "FTL" used outside of Warp travel, yet one poster is claiming they have it, and some books seem to give high-C capable craft when other books have days to move across systems / out to stable warp gates.
YEs, I know how big the ships are - hence the 1SM vs 0.1%SM comparison. I'll have to dig the figures out but it was a claimed count of torpedos fired in an engagement that, if true, resulted in most of the ship being storage for them. Torpedos are freakinghuge in the fluff, 10s of metres, even bigger for the StSpace ones (see storm of Iron)
Weapon yields cannot be held to be accurate if the event you are basing the yield on is not known to be true. For example if you determine X Gtonne yield based on asteroid being YKm across being vaped then if it turned out the asteroid was only "really" Y/3KM across then your calculations are now more than one order of magnitude off.
WHich was the point: known science gives an upper bound on "matter" based energy production that is not even close to the yields being calculated from BL and other sources for shield output - by many orders of magnitude. Even M/AM wouldnt be enough if the high end figures are "accurate". Which lends credence to:
BL writers dont know gak about physics, they just write what is cool
Hence trying to make an accurate "what would happen" is nigh on impossible and ultiimately futile.
the question with BL books is never that what happened was exaggerated. it is weather it actually happened in the first place. we assume that things arn't exaggerated, but that they never took place at all.
The Question isn't weather said asteroid was Y/3km or Ykm and it blew up. the question is weather said asteroid was shot in the first place.
We assume what we are told is accurate, assuming everything happened int he first place.
Characters don't cancel out. 40k has guys that throw fething DEAMONS back whence they came. if Angron came face to face with ANY SW or STrek character(especially Star Trek) they would their pants and run.
and if "Rool of Cool" is used then 40k still wins. we have 8ft tall super humans who carry guns that fire exploding ammo at other 8ft tall super humans who have the same guns. you have an enemy that is scared of cute little balls of fur.
Phasers operate on Thermal conduction to destabilize matter. Ceramite conducts zero heat. Phasers therefore are useless against Ceramite armor(which covers all 40k ships and Space Marines) and the Federation won't even make it to ground warfare.
You will of course provide quote that BL has said that.
BL is subsidiary of GW and therefore BL novels are cannn.
As for 610 gigaton torpedo,why does anyone rant about that not possible.
Possibly they have found way around the limitations.
Prove it's actually been contradicted. And don't blather about the quote being "edited outi n the various editions.
Provide evidence that the source you refer to is an outlier. Have you done some sort of analysis of a broad range of sources to come to this conclusion ?
That reminds me, hypocrisy, you are happy to apply mass lightening to everything and its mum, but matter compression technology is mean and evil ?
Particularly when the standard approach to canon in 40k is everything is valid, so "logically" you would need to find a contradiction before you can even begin to walk down such a path of logic.
Novels are however, supposed to be the more realistic portrayals of the setting, as opposed to balanced rules.
I'd rather derive from "reality" then try and work backwards from something where the reasoning behind it is generally obfuscated.
the main question is preheresy or post? as it wasn't stated in the first post let us consider this. preherey IOM could DESTROY the empire, post heresy it'd take the high lords months if not years to mobilize a force to stop the empire....
yes, the post heresy IoM would take a while to respond, but the IoM's defenses are so massive that they can take the time.
once they do respond the GE is sooooo dead.
610 gigatonns is certainly possible. 10 years before Hiroshima, no one even dreamed of Nuclear bombs and their destructive power. the developers of the Atom Bomb weren't even sure if the bomb getting dropped was going to work. they had only tested a prototype that wasn't even dropped from a plane, but was on top of a tower and they had never tested the final bomb casing. same thing applied to the 2nd bomb(which was a Hydrogen bomb since we ran out of Uranium making the test bomb and the one dropped on Hiroshima)
perhaps the IoM has discovered a new Radioactive element that is even more energy packed then any currently known element
I don't really understand the arguement going on here, as it involves physics, something I've never been good at. But what I do notice is the use of logic. Even though I hate logic and all it's subcategories, I have a good enough grasp of it from univeristy to provide a little tid bit of information..
For someting to be proven false, one must need a counter arguement. Something that shoew that the arguement is false, or a contradiction. From what I've seen there is little of that. (unless it's in the physics I don't understand). Merely stating that it cannot be true and providing examples where it cannot be true is not a good enough counterarguement. One must prove the other false using the bases given.
With the right Application the Galaxy Gun could be horrifyingly devastating. Assuming that the IoM is tied down with politics the GE could send scout ships to start marking out star charts in order to get a good feel for how to hop around hyperspace and creating hyperspace lanes that are reliable in use. Then after mapping out all this the fleet could station itself in some remote part of the galaxy that no one has visited and effectively take out Everything Ever, though it would have to move after taking out everything within the 5 parsec range. And since we are using a time line where we still have a formed GE we can ignore the bit about it being destroyed.
Nurglitch wrote:More accurately, the fluff does not match the game.
The fluff has concerns above and beyond the game, and those concerns are not strictly representative. That's why the common name for the background source material is 'fluff', because it's there to decorate the game rather than to provide a historically accurate accounting of the elements used in the fluff. It conveys 'colour' to the game rules much like paint provides colour to a miniature, rather than fixing a set of properties relative to a universe for purposes of simulation.
Take so-called "Movie Marines", for example. In a movie, or indeed any story, the protagonist has properties that cannot be conveyed in the way that a game element's characteristics and rules convey information about that element's location in the game. Giving them characteristic bonuses changes how they work in the game, but doesn't represent how they would behave to move the story forward, and make the action both believable and exciting.
Roleplaying games try to hybridize the elements of story-telling with those of games, but tend to fail when they try to be representative games rather than authorial games. They fail because authorial games are normative, and hence are about negotiating what should happen, and representative games are simulations of what could happen.
Not all games are representative games either, and Warhammer 40k is most definately not a representative game despite being dressed up as one. One could, for example, play it with a series of marked cylinders on an abstracted board. It's not like playing a wargame about the Battle of Waterloo because the shape of the game itself does not reflect any state of affairs beyond itself. Acknowledging this, the authors have wisely instituted many rules which function count-intuitively in representative terms, Assault Grenades being a notable example.
Warhammer 40k is a strategy game, which is to say it is a game about strategies rather than a game of representation such as a simulation, or a story. Attempting to make inferences about the states of the fictional universe welded to it are doomed to failure both from a rules standpoint and a fluff standpoint, since neither are representative.
Similar is true with starwars miniature game in the movei luke runs through a hallway full of cloens and comes out unscathed but in the game he would eb shot down on the spot in the movie jedis block waves apon waves of laser while in the game they would be shot down and so on and so forth.
Also the imperium would win because they have more planets if i recall right and hey blow up planets for lunch while in star wars they have only done it once and that was a HUGE deal.
Only problem is, in the scenario we;re working with, the Galaxy Gun doesn't exist yet, and even if it did, it's kinda stuck around Byss. It's described as immobile, so yes it could be effective, but it's not a 'I win' button.
ChrisWWII wrote:Only problem is, in the scenario we;re working with, the Galaxy Gun doesn't exist yet, and even if it did, it's kinda stuck around Byss. It's described as immobile, so yes it could be effective, but it's not a 'I win' button.
Not sure where you read the 'Immobile' bit, I see it having a hyperdrive and sublight thrusters which would allow it to move. And what exactly is the timeline we're working with? If possible, could it be detailed in either BBY or ABY years? With comparison to the 40K timeline to, which I think is current story time yeah?
yeah, the GE at it's height of power. sometime between New Hope and Return of the Jedi.
the rules naturally are
if there is a Deathstar there is only one at a time.
no Suncrusher or any other "God" weapons(all of which are incredibly stupid) as they didn't exist yet. BTW: the suncrusher is 100% impossable as you can't get Resinance inside a star and Gravity would heavily off set any vibrations that might shake a star apart.
Most of these "God" weapons are so far fetched that they don't even fit within the, very loose, boundries of Sci-fi. Halo rings are silly(how do you differentiate between Sentient and Non-sentient vertabrates at distances of Millions of Light years? seriously?) World Eaters are better, but they still push the boundries.
the Death Stars themselves are pretty far fetched too. but even assuming they actually work they still lose. they might destroy a few IoM battleships, but the large numbers of Appoc and Emperor class cruisers just cripple the Deathstar eventually. assuming the IoM doesn't just send assassins onto the DS to plant bombs or otherwise cripple it before they attack and capture it.
Very few of the IoM's weaponry can fit into the "God" weapon catagories. the most powerful thing the IoM has is the Nova Cannon(which is just a, very, large atomicly based bomb) and Exterminatus just involves killing all life with a Genetically Engineered Virus and(optionally) bombarding the hell out of the planets surface igniting the organic gasses that the virus leaves in it's wake. the Firestorm then burns most of the Atmosphere away. the fluff does take into account that this doesn't work on certain planets(odd Atmospheric composition) and that it takes hours or even days to get the bombs dropped properly and the virus takes many hours to take effect(depending on atmospheric variables)
Grey Templar wrote:
the Death Stars themselves are pretty far fetched too. but even assuming they actually work they still lose. they might destroy a few IoM battleships, but the large numbers of Appoc and Emperor class cruisers just cripple the Deathstar eventually. assuming the IoM doesn't just send assassins onto the DS to plant bombs or otherwise cripple it before they attack and capture it.
I read this too quickly and in the incorrect order. I thought you said it might take a few IoM battleships to destroy it, even with the large number of Appoc and Emperor class cruisers.
After reading it again however I still see a few things that bothers me. SSD are maybe a little less than twice the size of an IoM capital ship, and when a SSD crashed into the 2nd deathstar, it didn't really do much. I agree that a large number of those cruisers could cripple it eventually, but it would take some time.
They ran out of enriched uranium, but plutonium is a better fuel anyway...
Scale: they have said events could have happened but be exaggerations - hence saying about the size disparities. IT is not JUST that the event may not have happened, but it may have happened very differently to that which was portrayed.
Energy source: fusion is the most efficient and powerful non-im destroying matter fuel possible, as it exploits the different in binding energies between differing elements. Fission is orders of magnitudes less than that. You therefore have an upper bound when using physcial fuels - Fusion > anything other than Matter/Antimatter.
If your upper bound cannot produce the energy requirements listed in the books, then perhaps, just perhaps, those figures are "made up gak" by people who have little understanding of physics -they just write what is cool.
Again, not saying it could never happen, jus tthtat, KNOWING they can make stuff up to be cool AND knowing that the physics means their figures are, optimistically, entire orders of magnitude off SHOULD mean you temper your physics calculations.
Im not saying 610GTonnes is unlikely - given the USSR detonated a designed as 100MT bomb (i think the actual yield was much lower, about 60MT, but thats from memory) then yes, 610GTonne for fusion weapons is possible. The pwoer that the void shields and lances suppsoedly take - that is where the power generation of 1SM vs physical size of 0.1%SM comes into play. WHen your power source can be no better than fusion, yet you are producing the same energy as the most efficient fusion reactor we can think off, then you have issues with your maths!
Ivan - it was in the 40kvsST thread. Go look for it yourself - given you dismiss it anyway it doesnt matter to me what you think about BL and their policy, but the fact of the matter is that nothing in BL novels can be considered to have a full "truth" value. THats it - just that you temper your shouting of "facts!!!!" with the realisation that your basis for calculation is prone to an unknown degree of error.
Or you could blindly keep on parroting that it is canon, yada, nothing can be wrong, yada. But that doesnt make for meaningful or intelligent debate, especially when trying to form a basis for comparison between two universes. Mkay?
And matter compression? What does that have to do with generating energy? You just end up with, if you have enough mass / enough pressure, neutronium. Fairly useless as a fuel source.
Fusion is about releasing binding energy, and is the most efficient (by definition) non-annihilation of matter, fuel based energy possible*. AM/M is oc higher, as it releases all the energy locked up in the matter, but the Imperium does not use M/AM reactors. SO you are left with an upper bound on total energy production that is possible using a fuel-based source, aka Fusion. And you have figures from a known untrustworthy source (they even said they are!) which mean this yield is impossible given the size of the ships AND assumnig the ships are 100% reactor.
All this should mean you temper your "numbers!!!" cries. If you were being a rational debater you would, anyway. Recognising bias and error is fairly fundamental.
Note I say all this as a FAR bigger 40k than SW fan - i love both, but i love the *universe* of 40k more. Everyone being a bad guy is quite appealing.
It isnt "matter lightening" it is inertia suppression. Which may or may not be the same as AG (depending on which theories of matter, strings and Higgs you subscribe to) but which both universes have.
*zero point, or vacuum energy, is higher still, but I dont consider that "fuel based" - when the fabric of space time is your energy source the concept of "fuel" breaks down....
I read this too quickly and in the incorrect order. I thought you said it might take a few IoM battleships to destroy it, even with the large number of Appoc and Emperor class cruisers.
After reading it again however I still see a few things that bothers me. SSD are maybe a little less than twice the size of an IoM capital ship, and when a SSD crashed into the 2nd deathstar, it didn't really do much. I agree that a large number of those cruisers could cripple it eventually, but it would take some time.
It didn't do much? Not on the surface, maybe, but as I remember from the RotJ novelization, it did a lot of damage internally, weakening the superstructure of the Death Star a lot. And that's not withstanding that any Imperial Navy battlefleet that takes on the death star will probably have tens, if not dozens of battleships, not to mention all their supporting craft, Space Marine ships, etc. etc.
Nos-Yeah, Tsar Bomba was meant to be 100MT, but they decided to remove the U-235 casing from the secondary at the last minute to try and limit fall out, cutting the yield in half. That and 100MT would have vaporized the Tu-95 carrying the goddamn thing.....
Even without BL I have othersources that prove gigaton+ firepower.
BFG states that Battleship can wipe all life on planet in matter of hours using prow mounted armageddon weapons and Dominator's cannon.
Also provide link for that thread it's kinda hard to find it.
IvanTH - i have no intention of doing so, as you will just hand wave it away and, frankly, other people accept its existence anyway. You can probably google it if you want.
"Prove" is such a strong word. "extrapolate from sources where the author doesnt have any clue on real physics" would be slightly closer.
Back to people who debate...yes Chris, apparently they didnt want to irradiate TOO much of the North. DIdnt the TU also contain quite a chunk of the monitoring equipment for the test? Vaporising your monitoring plane would have made little sense, even in the CCCP!
"Wanted: pilot to be vapori^H^H^H^H^H gloriously commemorate^H^H^H^H^H^H^H rewarded with extra potato"
Given BL and BFG et all broadly agree on power levels, if you were, oooh, I dont know - being consistent you would realise a flaw in one probably indicates a flaw in the other.
Stop using words like "prove" when the figures, which are mere extrapolations from a company with a known inability to understand physics, are suspect.
nosferatu1001 wrote:Ivan - refer to explanation above.
Given BL and BFG et all broadly agree on power levels, if you were, oooh, I dont know - being consistent you would realise a flaw in one probably indicates a flaw in the other.
Stop using words like "prove" when the figures, which are mere extrapolations from a company with a known inability to understand physics, are suspect.
One thing,40k is highly inconsistent and at the end it all boils down to personal prefernce.
And what would be your calcs.
Grey Templar wrote:
the Death Stars themselves are pretty far fetched too. but even assuming they actually work they still lose. they might destroy a few IoM battleships, but the large numbers of Appoc and Emperor class cruisers just cripple the Deathstar eventually. assuming the IoM doesn't just send assassins onto the DS to plant bombs or otherwise cripple it before they attack and capture it.
I read this too quickly and in the incorrect order. I thought you said it might take a few IoM battleships to destroy it, even with the large number of Appoc and Emperor class cruisers.
After reading it again however I still see a few things that bothers me. SSD are maybe a little less than twice the size of an IoM capital ship, and when a SSD crashed into the 2nd deathstar, it didn't really do much. I agree that a large number of those cruisers could cripple it eventually, but it would take some time.
It took fleets of Imperium ships days to attack the World Engine and they couldn't defeat it until a Battle barge crashed into it (sound familiar) and entire chapter went around blowing shield nacelles until a hole in the shields was large enough for the Imperium fleet to do real damage.
Sound familiar?
Bueller? Anyone? Bueller?
Now add a GE fleet backing up the deathstar and IOM systems are in deep doo doo, especially if they start hitting the major forge worlds.
Well, they'd have to sacrifice alot to take it down, but the IoM COULD take down the Death Star, even if attacked. Don't forget, in our scenario the |Rebellion still exists within the SW galaxy, so the DS may not even make it to the front lines.
ChrisWWII wrote:Well, they'd have to sacrifice alot to take it down, but the IoM COULD take down the Death Star, even if attacked. Don't forget, in our scenario the |Rebellion still exists within the SW galaxy, so the DS may not even make it to the front lines.
Rebellion wouldn't mean anything. It didn't in the actual timeline, but dictatorships love wars. They can focus the populace on stopping the bad guy. In this instance they have an excellent bad guy.
That's true, so they could limit popular support for the Rebel Alliance, but there is still the possibility that they could take down the DSII in orbit over Endor before it's sent to fight the Imperium.
In fact it might be easier, since the fleet defending its construction site might be smaller with the war effort on.
IMO, 40k uses flamer weapons, ergo they have "a way" to deal with orks.. SW does not, ergo 40k wins... SW would be crushed by a single Hive Fleet, a fleet of Roks, and probably the IoM by themselves as a whole.
If one of the hive fleets showed up, the SW folks would be royally screwed, since the HFs have "innumerable" bodies to throw up as living shields, as well as bombs and 'torpedoes'... The Orks, are, well.. the Orks, and they are just spoiling for a fight. Which brings up an interesting thought... what would an Ork, Looted star destroyer look like, or a Looted AT-AT??
Frazzled wrote:
It took fleets of Imperium ships days to attack the World Engine and they couldn't defeat it until a Battle barge crashed into it (sound familiar) and entire chapter went around blowing shield nacelles until a hole in the shields was large enough for the Imperium fleet to do real damage.
Sound familiar?
Bueller? Anyone? Bueller?
Now add a GE fleet backing up the deathstar and IOM systems are in deep doo doo, especially if they start hitting the major forge worlds.
Would a fleet of destroyers (as in, Imperium destroyer-class vessels, as analogues for Star Destroyers) really make any difference in a clash between an IoM fleet versus the Death Star? Sounds more like the picket lines engage each other and it's capital ships vs Death Star. Unless GE has a definitive method to keep Space Marines from ever boarding, IoM eventually crushes it.
And the necron world engine is grossly technologically superior to IoM tech, so for analogue purposes seems more like an 'elite' Deathstar.
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Ensis Ferrae wrote:what would an Ork, Looted star destroyer look like, or a Looted AT-AT??
Would a fleet of destroyers (as in, Imperium destroyer-class vessels, as analogues for Star Destroyers) really make any difference in a clash between an IoM fleet versus the Death Star? Sounds more like the picket lines engage each other and it's capital ships vs Death Star. Unless GE has a definitive method to keep Space Marines from ever boarding, IoM eventually crushes it.
***Shields block teleporting.
And the necron world engine is grossly technologically superior to IoM tech, so for analogue purposes seems more like an 'elite' Deathstar.
Would a fleet of destroyers (as in, Imperium destroyer-class vessels, as analogues for Star Destroyers) really make any difference in a clash between an IoM fleet versus the Death Star? Sounds more like the picket lines engage each other and it's capital ships vs Death Star. Unless GE has a definitive method to keep Space Marines from ever boarding, IoM eventually crushes it.
***Shields block teleporting.
And the necron world engine is grossly technologically superior to IoM tech, so for analogue purposes seems more like an 'elite' Deathstar.
***Prove it.
Slight Correction: Void Shields block IoM Teliportation tech because both utilize the Warp to Teliport/create the energy field. the shield causes interferance. Star Wars shields create energy fields, but do not use the Warp to do so. the IoM Teliporters would pass right through SW shields.
World Engine is roughly equivilant to Deathstar. both could destroy planets, Both were massive.
anecdotal evidence that WE is better then DS: the Necrons have had since the dawn if time to perfect their Technology, the Deathstar was concieved in the span of 30 years, build and, more importantly, destroyed twice. the World Engine was destroyed in a direct assault, the Rebel alliance had to use Trickery and a major flaw in the Deathstars design to destroy it.
Slight Correction: Void Shields block IoM Teliportation tech because both utilize the Warp to Teliport/create the energy field. the shield causes interferance. Star Wars shields create energy fields, but do not use the Warp to do so. the IoM Teliporters would pass right through SW shields.
*** where are you getting the information that void shields are wapr based? Note. Tau, Eldar, and Necron fields also stop them.
anecdotal evidence that WE is better then DS: the Necrons have had since the dawn if time to perfect their Technology, the Deathstar was concieved in the span of 30 years, build and, more importantly, destroyed twice. the World Engine was destroyed in a direct assault, the Rebel alliance had to use Trickery and a major flaw in the Deathstars design to destroy it.
****Um no. They existed in the past-yes. They went into hibernation. Effectively time and development stopped once that occurred.
The timeline on SW is much more ambiguous and thheir tech relies on multiple races.
And the necron world engine is grossly technologically superior to IoM tech, so for analogue purposes seems more like an 'elite' Deathstar.
***Prove it.
The necrons themselves are grossly technologically superior to IoM or GE tech. GE does not have organic, self-healing robot metal. GE certainly doesn't have inorganic star gods and GE standard-issue weaponry is not capable of peeling apart adamantine at the atomic level. GE can't teleport and GE rely on fuel or power cells instead of remote location energy projection for locomotive power.
If the most basic Necrontyr tech is far superior to GE tech, then why wouldn't the most elaborate Necrontyr tech also be far superior to GE tech?
And the necron world engine is grossly technologically superior to IoM tech, so for analogue purposes seems more like an 'elite' Deathstar.
***Prove it.
The necrons themselves are grossly technologically superior to IoM or GE tech. GE does not have organic, self-healing robot metal. GE certainly doesn't have inorganic star gods and GE standard-issue weaponry is not capable of peeling apart adamantine at the atomic level. GE can't teleport and GE rely on fuel or power cells instead of remote location energy projection for locomotive power.
If the most basic Necrontyr tech is far superior to GE tech, then why wouldn't the most elaborate Necrontyr tech also be far superior to GE tech?
As big a Starwars fan I am, 40k would win this handsdown tied behind their head.
Sure Starwars has some plus's which would make them a fearsome opponent.
-Boba Fett -A large amount of Super Weapons such as Two Death Stars, The Galaxy Gun, Suncrusher etc, etc. At different time periods of course but Im really not sure how this supposed battle would happen since Star Wars is somehwere from the past and 40k is in the far flung future.
-Jedi, skilled warriors trained in the Force, Sith, relentless warriors trained in the Dark Side.
-The Yuzhan Vong are a pretty fearsome race, kind've like really violent sadisitic Eldar/Tyranids travelling on living planets and growing everything from their weapons to their ships.
-Anzati, I think even a Space Marine would have a little trouble taking down a group of Anzati.
-Chiss would also be an issue, they take your technology and rapidly reproduce it better and more efficient.
If the Imperium were to fight them they would not only be up against the Chiss battle fleet but reproduced Chiss esque Imperium craft which hit harder, move faster and can manouver better.
But of course 40k has all of this going on for them...
-Space Marines supposably cant lose "YAWN"
-Just about every race has a fail safe to make them indestructable.
-Have you seen Stormtroopers shooting
These things alone will make 40k win, that and all the other crazy advantages they have.
AndrewC wrote:We have the same problem with some of the 40K tech. Power reactors seem to be referred to as plasma/fusion interchangeable in some sources and not referred to at all in others. So people revert to what is understandable (me) and use plasma/fusion/fission as a benchmark.
No they don't. They're referred to as plasma rectors except for what, one offhand comment from a non-technical character in one book? Fusion power doesn't provide enough energy to move warships from most SF (including all of the ones under discussion) without invoking an outside-of-physics drive, much less operate weapons and shields. Attempting to use it as a limit is just absurd.
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AndrewC wrote:No, not "you" in particular, "you" as in one side of a discussion. There was a previous thread in which weapons yield was a major factor to the discussion.
I'm positing in this thread, not the previous thread. You're apparently trying to continue an argument that you had with other people in another thread with me here, which is just silly. Your comments simply don't make any sense at all as a reply to what I've posted.
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nosferatu1001 wrote:Energy source: fusion is the most efficient and powerful non-im destroying matter fuel possible, as it exploits the different in binding energies between differing elements. Fission is orders of magnitudes less than that. You therefore have an upper bound when using physcial fuels - Fusion > anything other than Matter/Antimatter.
Fusion can't produce enough energy to give ships the accelerations shown in SW/ST/40k, much less the weapons and shields. If you limit energy levels to fusion plant outputs, you can't get across a solar system in hours or days, it takes weeks or months, and you can't move in an arbitrary direction the way the ships are shown to, you have to follow planned orbits.
Also FYI fission is only a single order of magnitude below fusion, not 'orders of magnitude' less.
WHen your power source can be no better than fusion,
Then you can't even move ships like the Iom, Star Wars, or Star Trek have without going completely outisde of known physics for your drive, so you're throwing out all of the space travel described in any of the universes, which seems to make any conversation about it pointless. When you're limiting ships to the point that they can't even move like they're shown to do, you're not setting a reasonable upper bound at all.
SW was a long time ago, 40k is in the far future. Odds are 40k is more advanced and the winner, no?
Even though I am on the 40k side in all of this, starwars did take place a long time ago no? but we typing on our computers right now are not more advanced than starwars.
Kogwar wrote:But it is in a galaxy far away with humanity and other humanoids developing and coming to power long before us but at the same rate.
Since Tyranids are believed to be from outside our own galaxy, perhaps somewhere between "long long ago" and "the dark future of the 41st Millenium" the Tyranids came along and simply Ate star wars?
Kogwar wrote:But it is in a galaxy far away with humanity and other humanoids developing and coming to power long before us but at the same rate.
Since Tyranids are believed to be from outside our own galaxy, perhaps somewhere between "long long ago" and "the dark future of the 41st Millenium" the Tyranids came along and simply Ate star wars?
Honestly I'd be willing to contend their importance as they have held a stable government through the whole Old Republic, Empire, New Republic, and Galactic Alliance era, it's just that authors of various books never focus on them so they seem off in the dark.
