Dark Eldar Review

As a Dark Eldar player for a good six years, I've had a fair bit of experience with the old spikey space elves. I must admit, this latest update has filled me with equal amounts of joy and fear, joy that I finally have up to date rules and models, and fear, because now I'm five times more likely to run into someone who actually knows how to play against them in a tournament. As such, I'm now conducting an in depth analysis of all the units in the Dark Eldar codex, evaluating their many uses, overall competitiveness, and possible tactics.

The original Dark Eldar strategy was based around the fact that Dark Eldar, unlike the many horde or MEQ armies, were fast, and fragile. A glass hammer. The analogies were numerous, but they all revolved around one simple fact:- Dark Eldar could dish out tremendous amounts of firepower, and were incredibly mobile and flexible, but this came at the price of armour and durability. They were incapable of soaking up large amounts of return fire, and as such, you tended to either win big and absolutely massacre a foe, or lose big, and be tabled. The original army builds in 4th edition focused around either a Wych based combat army, or a Warrior based ranged force. The rules upgrades in 5th edition rendered the Wych Cult forces impotent, with the new importance placed on holding objectives. This left only the warrior based ranged force, which usually revolved around a trio of Ravagers maxed out with disentegrators, Dark Lance Sniper squads, and Sniper Boats, with the occasional Reaver Blade, Incubi unit or Wych Squad thrown in for added effectiveness.

However, the new codex has seen considerable overhauls given to old units once considered worthless, such as Hellions, or Scourges, not to mention many new units. In order to consider their overall competitiveness, I intend to see how many of the following boxes they tick. The more they qualify for, the better I would consider the unit to be.

-Is the unit capable of multi-tasking and performing two or more of the following functions (anti-tank firepower, anti-vehicle firepower, combat capability, fast movement, objective holding).
-Is the unit priced effectively for what it does in comparison to other similar units in the DE, or other codexes?
-Is the unit capable of performing cohesively within the Dark Eldar combat doctrine of Fast and Fragile?
-Does the unit have a wide range of wargear options, and are they cost effective?

By analysing the various units in line with this methodology, I can then produce a concise summary for each unit according to the following blueprint:-

Unit Name: (X)
Optimal Function/s: (X/X)
Cost Effectiveness: (Bad/Average/Good/Excellent)
Tactical effectiveness: (?/10)
Overall competitiveness: (Uncompetitive/Usable Competitively/Very Competitive)

I'll be producing this in several installments, which I shall upload into this thread when completed......


HQ

I'm going to start with the basic HQ, and move onto special characters at the end.

Archon

The Archon is the same price as he was in the last codex. However, he's had the pleasure of gaining 1 WS, BS, and Ld, as well as all the new army wide Power from Pain and Night Vision rules. As such, just like before, he's quite the combat monster, capable of great destruction if equipped right. As such, that's the first thing to examine about him.

Now, it's pretty much a given that your Lord is a combat monster. As such, fitting him out for a ranged weapon would be wasting his potential by far. What weapon you tool him out with much depends upon exactly what role you intend for him to be playing, and exactly what targets you want him to take down. He can function as an Independent character attached to a Incubi/Wych/Wrack squad, or you can tool him out with a retinue as a unit in his own right. Now as Haemonculi supersede his effectiveness in terms of being attached to a Wrack squad, we can rule that one out as the most effective combination. Similarly, the Succubus would be the superior option when attached to Wyches. Therefore, to use him effectively, we have the following two roles:-

-As a booster to an Incubi Squad. Incubi are an exceptionally effective combat unit, and capable of ripping apart most enemy combat squads. However, they suffer from a lack of Invulnerable saves, which makes enemy HQ choices with power weapons and invulnerable saves a real threat. Adding a Archon tooled up for HQ hunting can finish off the unit, and give it the extra power and durability it needs to go toe to toe with crack enemy combat units such, Close Combat Terminators with Storm Shields.

In terms of Equipment, the first thing you need to do is give your Archon durability in the form of the Shadow Field. At 5 points more than in the last codex, its pricey, but considering the trend of SM characters with high invulnerable saves, it is absolutely essential. The Huskblade, giving the Archon Instant Death power weapon capability is the next piece of equipment in line. The Djin blade can backfire, the Venom Blade meaningless against high armour saves, and the standard power weapon fails to deliver enough punch. The Electrocorrosive whip is an excellent way of minimising the damage from power fists and monstrous creatures, but generally speaking, the Huskblade has more in the way of practical use. Adding a Phantasm Grenade Launcher gives him and his Incubi squad offensive and defensive grenades. With a Shadow Field,Husk Blade, and Phantasm Grenade Launcher your Archon is at 150 points. If you're looking to save points, you could leave it there, but Ghostplate Armour, Haywire Grenades, Soul Trap and Combat Drugs cost 35 more points combined, and finish off your Archons kit by giving him a spot more durability, some anti-vehicle power, and a slight combat boost. The result is that at either 150 or 185 points (depending on how much you're willing to spend), you possess an HQ capable of going toe to toe with any tooled up Space Marine hero. His only weakness is that he'll be wounding primarily at Strength 3 (bar a lucky combat drugs roll). The Husk Blade goes some way towards counteracting this however, ensuring that he only needs wound an enemy hero or monstrous creature once in order to remove them. When combined with the Soul Trap upgrade, you can also ensure that once he's killed an enemy monster/SC, he becomes even more dangerous than before! In comparison to the Space Marine codex where heroes are regularly 200 points a shot, he's also more than reasonably priced for the HQ-Hunting role.

(Note! This is not the Incubi analysis, rather an analysis of the Archon when accompanied by Incubi!)

Unit Name: Archon(with Incubi)
Optimal Function/s: Combat Capability/HQ hunting
Cost Effectiveness: Good
Tactical effectiveness: 8/10
Overall competitiveness: Very Competitive

Archon's Retinue

The second possible option for your Archon is as a single unit combined with a retinue. However, with 4 different unit types available for the retinue, I'll examine each one and their synergy with the Archon first, before considering the Archon's loadout.

Medusae
The Medusae have absolutely no hand weapons whatsoever. Their sole contribution to the unit comes from their flamer template attacks, which hit from a randomised strength 2 to 7, and a randomised (D6) AP. It's an assault weapon, and very similar to the Liquifier guns carried by the Haemonculus. It has the potential to do tremendous damage or none at all. However, at 15 points a model, the Medusae are cheap enough to ensure that taking the maximum two possible for the retinue would be the wisest decision. As assault flamers (effectively), they fit perfectly with the concept of the Archon as a combat unit, and cost little enough to be worth maxing out on them in a retinue.

Lhamaeans
Lhamaeans weigh in at 10 points apiece, and bestow a 2+ poison attack on any poisoned weapons the Archon has. They also possess the ability to wound on a 2+. Now my initial thoughts are that they're a waste of time. Odds are, your Archon will be tooled out with something of the power weapon variety making her ability pointless, and at only 1 baseline strength 3 attack at 10 points she's of no aid to the combat herself.

...then I looked at her profile again. She has a pistol and combat weapon, bringing her up to 2 attacks. And she wounds on a 2+, making her strength irrelevant. This means that for 10 points, you get a model with 3 attacks on the charge, that wounds on a 2+, and, after accumulating her first pain token, will have feel no pain. She also has the standard WS 4 and Initiative 5 for DE. Suddenly, not so bad looking after all, eh? If she were 15 points, she probably wouldn't be worth it, but at 10, if you're looking for a few more models to fill out your retinue, she seems to be worth the points cost to grab a couple of them.

Ur-Ghuls
Ur-Ghuls are essentially the Chaos Beasts that came with Beastmasters in the last codex. They have Feel No Pain and Furious Charge already, making the addition of pain counters to the unit meaningless to them. They hit with 4 attacks at Strength 5 on the charge, then slide into 3 attacks at strength 4 if the combat keeps going. You can get more Ur-Ghuls than any other model in a retinue, up to five. Their lack of power weapons means that when attacking a MEQ from the charge, they'll hit twice, and do roughly 1.3 wounds, which the MEQ will then have a good chance of saving. Ultimately, the Ur-Ghuls are there to make up numbers and spam regular attacks. At toughness 3 and no save however, they're not built for long combat, and at a costly 15 points apiece, will be the first casualties you take in your retinue. To summarise, adding one or two to make up the numbers and soak up a wound or two might prove to beneficial, but generally speaking, Ur-Ghuls aren't worth the points expenditure.

Sslyth
The Sslyth, at first glance appear to suffer from Ogryn syndrome, in that they're High Toughness and Wound troops without power weapons that are far too costly to ever consider taking. However, a closer examination challenges that view to an extent. Sslyth start the game with Feel No pain already, meaning that combined with their toughness 5, it takes a Strength 10 hit to kill them outright. This renders them immune to most Power fist attacks. 4 Strength 5 attacks on the charge means that they're initially dealing out just as much damage as the Ur-Ghuls would be, only with a Toughness of 5, a 5+ save, and 2 wounds make them considerably more durable. Now were that all, I'd still be inclined to slate them as a waste of points. However, there's a small fact overlooked by most people, that being the fact they carry Shardcarbines as well. Shardcarbines are poisoned AP5 guns with an 18” range and 3 assault shots. With the addition of this gun, the Sslyth go up from being an uncertain unit, to being worth their points cost. Now whilst this in no way means that they fill a particularly effective role, they aren't the massive points sink 'ogryn syndrome' unit they initially appear to be.

In conclusion, the retinue has the potential to deal out many decent strength attacks, but suffers from a complete lack of power weapons. Theoretically, the Archon would have to fill this gap, and so the traditional loadout as detailed in the Incubi Squad description above would seem to suffice. The optimum retinue size to me would appear to be 2 Medusae, 2 Lhameans, the single compulsory Ur-Ghul, and 1 or 2 Sslyth on board the regular Raider. With 1 Sslyth, the retinue comes to exactly 100 points, with the assumed 70 points with a raider with Flickerfield, and the 150 odd for your Archon, you appear to spending 320 points on a unit that's quite simply not nearly as effective as other potential combat variations. The problem is, the retinue will find it difficult to stand up to any kind of dedicated combat unit with power weapons, and considering the large numbers of points involved (nearly half to a third of your army depending on points cost), it seems to be nothing more than a points sink when there are other units that could achieve far more for similar points cost. By comparison, you could throw a Lord with 4 Incubi in a Venom with a second splinter cannon for the same points cost, and gain a unit capable of smashing pretty much any opposing unit with multiple power weapon attacks.

Unit Name: Archon(with Retinue)
Optimal Function/s: Combat Capability
Cost Effectiveness: Average
Tactical effectiveness: 5/10
Overall competitiveness: Usable Competitively

Succubus

The Succubus is the Wych Version of the Lord. She costs five points more, has a slightly worse 6+ save, loses 1 BS and 1 Ld, and gains 1 WS and 1 Initiative. She also gains the Wych 4+ Invulnerable save in close combat and combat drugs. Now initially, this would appear to make her the superior choice to the Archon for a regular combat monster, but then one notices a very important fact. Simply put, the Succubus lacks all the interesting wargear options that the Archon possesses, and instead gets to choose between the various Wych squad upgrades. She has the standard wych options of Razorflails, Shardnet and Impaler, and Hydra Gauntlets, however, none of these are power weapons, and in good Wych tradition, tend to focus on removing enemy attacks or increasing/enhancing the users own. Venom Blades and standard power weapons are on option, but as per usual, should be ignored when better options present themselves. The Agoniser and Electrocorrosive Whip are identically priced options at 20 points apiece. Both are Power weapons, with the Agoniser allowing you to always wound on a 4+ (getting around that annoying Strength 3), and the Whip halving wounded enemies strength for that combat. The only other options are Haywire Grenades and a Blast Pistol for tank-busting capabilities.

To be frank, the Succubus is...underwhelming. She lacks all the cool options of the regular Archon, which tend to make her essentially nothing more than an upgraded Wych Squad Leader. As such, should you choose to take her, that would be her optimum role, but unlike a kitted up Archon, she's unlikely to leave a swathe of destruction across the battlefield. Her only redeeming feature is that she's a cheap Wych army HQ choice, coming in at only 90 points with an Agoniser and Haywire Grenades.

Unit Name: Succubus
Optimal Function/s: Combat Capability
Cost Effectiveness: Average
Tactical effectiveness: 5/10
Overall competitiveness: Uncompetitive

Haemonculus Ancient/Haemonculus

The only difference between the two types of Haemonculi here is the upgraded points cost and profiles. Both have exactly the same wargear options. The Haemonculus Ancient has +1 WS, BS, Wound, Initiative, Attack, and Leadership for an additional 30 points. As such, I intend to analyse them as effectively the same unit, with a small note on the end with regards to the value(?) in upgrading.

The Haemonculus is the cheapest of all HQ units at 50 points base. You can choose 1-3 as a single troops option allowing you to spread them throughout your force. When considering the number of weapon and arcane wargear options, this is a significant factor. It allows you to further customise certain units in your army to multi-task depending on how you equip the Haemonculus. Not only this, taking even a single Haemonculus opens up the option of taking Wracks as a third troop type. To top it all of, a Haemonculus also gains a pain token at the start of the game, which will then be then conferred to any unit he's attached to. The usefulness of this last point can't be emphasised enough, as it pretty much allows you to grant Feel No Pain to any unit you want straight off the bat. To that extent, even without any other upgrades, the Haemonculus can be seen as allowing you to pay points for pain tokens pre-game.

Now how you upgrade your Haemonculus is thoroughly dependant on what unit you want to attach it to, and how you'd like to enhance that units effectiveness. Now generally speaking, you can kit out a Haemonculus for the following roles:- Shooting Augmentation (So attached to Warriors, Trueborn, and possibly Wracks), Combat Capability(with Wracks, Grotesques, Wyches, Beastmasters), and Combat Augmentation (with Incubi, Wracks, and Beastmasters). Each Haemonculus can take two pieces of arcane wargear, as well as a combat weapon, meaning that depending on the role you envisage for you should tool them up appropriately.

-Shooting Augmentation:- This is where you're looking to have your haemonculus function from a distance and augment your shooting units. Now one possibility is placing him with four Blaster equipped Trueborn in a Venom, or with twenty Warriors on foot, thus giving them the Feel No Pain token. In such a capacity, the Hex-Rifle and its ability to bypass Eternal Warrior/ kill multiple wound models is invaluable. The Dark Gate is also a possibility if joined to a trueborn unit, as you can detach him from the squad as soon as in range to select a different target to fire it at. Alternatively, it functions as a strength 10 weapon to help bust a vehicle. However, any further upgrades would be wasted, as neither units objective is to get into combat generally speaking.

-Combat Capability:- This is where you tool up your Haemonclulus specifically to defeat enemy units in combat. It can be crossed to an extent, with Combat Augmentation, and perform both roles adequately. Generally speaking, the idea is to combine the scissorhand, which grants +1 attacks and makes them poisoned, with a huskblade and animus vitae/soul trap. The result is to turn the Haemonculus into a relatively accomplished Close Combat with power weapon capabilities, that might otherwise be lacking in a Grotesque, Wrack or Beastmaster unit. It also has excellent anti-HQ potential if attached to a Wych squad.

-Combat Augmentation:- The idea behind combat augmentation is that the Haemonculus should be capable of softening up a foe at close range before another unit does most of the combat damage. To this end, a Liquifier gun is a must have, combined with a Shattershard/Orb of Despair/Casket of Flensing. The Haemonculus is then given an Electrocorrosive Whip or Mindphase Gauntlet to help debilitate an enemy unit. By doing this, you can soften up a crack unit of terminators or the like sufficiently that another combat squad, can deal the coup de grace. But in this case the Haemonculus aids the combat more indirectly, helping to soften up the target unit, rather than taking such a direct part in the combat himself.

Of course, it's fully feasible to mix the Combat Capability and Combat Augmentation roles together, and equip a Haemonculus with say a Liquifier, an Electrocorrosive whip, and an Animus Vitae, or a huskblade, soul-trap, and Casket of Flensing. The Haemonculus is a very customisable unit, allowing you to upgrade appropriately depending upon the role you seem them playing. The Haemonculus ancient is a definite possibility, but as one of the selling points is their cheapness, the upgrade would only appear to be worth the points cost, if you're planning on tooling a Haemonculus out purely for Combat Capability. In a role more to do with augmentation, it would be seem to be a waste of points that could be better spent on other upgrades.

Unit Name: Haemonculus
Optimal Function/s: Combat Capability, Combat Augmentation, Shooting Augmentation
Cost Effectiveness: Good
Tactical effectiveness: 9/10
Overall competitiveness: Very Competitive

Elites

I'm reviewing Wracks as a Troops choice rather than as an Elite, simply because most people will take them in that role, and it breaks up the numbers a bit.

Incubi

At 22 points, Incubi have been reduced in cost since their previous incarnation. For those 22 points, you a fleet combat specialist with a 3+ armour save, WS and Initiative 5, 2 attacks base, and a power weapon that lets them strike at strength 4. To compare, a Space Marine squad of 5 Vanguard Veterans with power weapons costs 200 points, as does a squad of 5 Space Marine terminators. Ork Burnas are 15 points a model and Striking Scorpions/Howling Banshees 16. Considering Incubi take the armour save from the Scorpions, the power weapon from the Banshees, and add a considerable stat increase to boot, 22 points is an amazingly good price to pay. They've also gained the fleet and power through pain rules. If you can get them into combat, once they've Feel No Pain as well, they're a particularly deadly unit.

The main role Incubi possess is that of a battering ram unit. They're hard enough to take down all but the hardest of combat squads, and all they need to do that is a hero of their own. The high Initiative ensures they strike first, and due to their relatively low points cost, they outnumber the likes of terminators virtually two to one at the same points. In short, they're capable of rolling up a line with ease. They can munch through the likes of tactical marines without pausing for breath, and are equally capable of going hand to Nobs. They may have some difficulty with the likes of swarms, or monstrous creatures, but that's where the upgrades come in(well for swarms at least).

One Incubi can become a klaivex for 15 points. He can be upgraded to have his uber weapon, the demi-klaives for a further 20, and he has two abilities available for purchase on top of that for ten and fifteen points respectively. He can also take an awesome AP3 Flamer for another 15. The problem is, all these upgrades combined equal out at 75 points, more than another three Incubi! Now one of the upgrades, that gives the Klaivex preferred enemy against characters is pretty worthless, with such a high WS(6), he'll be hitting on 3 or 4 plus the whole time anyway. The other upgrades however, all 65 points worth, are good enough to be worth considering taking, however, they strike me as the sort of thing you'd do with leftover points. If you're attaching a hero to the unit anyway, the Klaivex is an unnecessary luxury.

You'll rarely be taking more than 5 or so at a time, as they they work better in small units due to their elite nature. If you have a two units of five instead of one big unit of ten, not only do you have the option of taking Venoms, you have the ability to threaten two sections of your opponents line instead of just one. If both units are on opposing sides of the battlefield, it forces an opponent to make some tough decisions on where to put his uber-combat unit to take them on.

As such, Incubi can be put into two roles in which they excel, small raiding units, or HQ hunting. In both cases, Venoms are the optimal transport, small, and cheap. A unit of 5 Incubi for disruption amongst an opponents force, or a unit of 4+Archon for comprehensive HQ hunting seem to be the most efficient method for deployment.

Unit Name: Incubi
Optimal Function/s: Combat Capability/HQ Hunting
Cost Effectiveness: Excellent
Tactical effectiveness: 8/10
Overall competitiveness:Very Competitive

Grotesques

Grotesques are the second DE unit out of 3 appearing to have Ogryn syndrome at first sight. High Strength, Toughness, Wounds and Attacks. They weigh in as much as the Sslyth though, at 35 points apiece. So! What's unique about them in comparison?, you may well ask. Well, they start off with Feel No Pain, like the Sslyth. They also have the option of taking a single Liquifier gun per unit, and their squad sergeant (metsaphorically speaking) can take a few of the Haemonculus weapon options. Unfortunately, GQ continues its usual trend of 'High wounds and toughness models aren't allowed power weapons'. As such, you have a choice between a few poisoned weapons, which are pretty irrelevant when you already possess Strength 5, and the Flesh and Mindphase Gauntlets, to help remove characters if you somehow manage to score a wound on them.

Not only that, but due to their rampage rule, you really need to have a Haemonculus with them to ensure their effectiveness. Unlike virtually every model in the DE army, GW also opted to remove the Fleet rule, meaning that they either have to crawl across the battlefield, soaking up fire all the way, or buy a Raider. If I'm going to be completely frank here, so far in this review, this strikes me as the most pointless unit of the lot. It's not speedy, not lethal, and is classic 'Ogryn Syndrome'.

The only way I can think of running Grotesques would be in a Raider with a Haemonculus tooled up for anti-HQ. The Grotesques would act as a bodyguard unit, soaking up all the inevitable power fist attacks. However, any sort of half decent combat unit will quite simply tear holes in Grotesques.
It's as simple as that really.

Unit Name: Grotesques
Optimal Function/s: Combat Capability
Cost Effectiveness: Bad
Tactical effectiveness: (2/10)
Overall competitiveness: Uncompetitive


Mandrakes

Mandrakes have changed considerably. Gone are the fun rules of running 3 models across a table and popping out from any of the points. Instead, they've been forced to conform to the standard Infiltrate rules. They also have Fleet, Move Through and Stealth to help them on their way. They also have a 5+ Invulnerable save, making them as durable as regular Daemons of Chaos. At strength 4 with 2 attacks base, and absolutely no upgrade options, they seem at first to be a bit of a dud unit.

However! To an extent, that's because people have this mental picture of them appearing behind enemy lines and chewing up Devastator squads, Crisis Battlesuits and so on. The truth is, if you throw them at any hard unit, they're not going to do so well. However, if you're preapred to attach a haemonculus, they can be relatively decent shock troops. They become capable of shooting an Strength 4 AP4 assault 2 weapon that pins. They'll also be fleet, and possess Feel No Pain. In this regard, they're excellent for mixing it up with lighter infantry units, from Fire Warriors, to Ork Boyz, to Imperial Guardsmen. You might think that not infiltrating is wasting some of their potential, but with the huge preponderance of transports in 5th edition, odds are keeping them back may not have such an ill effect after all. And of course, should it look like Infiltration would actually be a good idea, you're no obligation to deploy them with the haemonculus, as an independent character, you can quite simply deploy him with another unit.

Not only this, with the new emphasis on objectives, Mandrakes are an excellent way of denying them to an opponent. With the stealth rule, and the possibility of Feel no Pain, combined with infiltrate, they give the option of storming and contesting a foes objective with relative ease. This isn't to say that Mandrakes are best unit around, far from it, but they have their potential uses. It's just a shame how overcostedf they are, 10 or 11 points would be far more appropriate. They have a fair number of tactical possibilities, and some potential, but are simply too overcosted for what they do to seriously contest competitively. However, nonetheless, they're not nearly as bad as they might first appear.

Unit Name: Mandrakes
Optimal Function/s: Combat Capability/Contesting Objectives
Cost Effectiveness: Bad
Tactical effectiveness: 7/10
Overall competitiveness: Usable Competitively

Harlequins

The Harlequins in the DE codex are identical to those in codex Eldar. Like in Codex Eldar, they're pretty fast. They ignore difficult terrain, and have fleet. They're also fairly survivable, with a 5+ save and the Shadowseers Veil of Tears powers. Add in Furious Assault and Hit and Run, with the Death Jesters ability to pin enemies, and you actually possess a plausible combat unit. At 22 points with Razor flails to grant them all rending, they seem like they fit in perfectly. But then, stop. Think a minute. What other unit costs 22 points a model? Incubi fall in at identical points cost, but are all armed with power weapons, 3+ saves, pain tokens, and the ability to take transports.

Harlequins are actually a decent combat unit. But as far as I can see, you would NEVER take them. Why? Because there's a far better alternative in the same Force org slot. It's not even just a simple case of power weapons vs rending, the Incubi have the other options already listed, that Harlequins do not. Harlequins are good, but Incubi do the exact same job, and do it better. Harlequins would be mildly more effective at taking down monstrous creatures, but with the options of huskblades, and so many poisoned weapons, monstrous creatures are rarely going to be troublesome for Dark Eldar.
So to conclude, there's nothing wrong with taking them, as they are a good unit. They're just outclassed by costing the same number of points as a better unit that does the same thing. For that reason alone, they're completely uncompetitive.

Unit Name: Harlequins
Optimal Function/s: Combat Capability
Cost Effectiveness: Average
Tactical effectiveness: 7/10
Overall competitiveness: Uncompetitive

Kabalite Trueborn

Kabalite Trueborn are quite simply Veteran Warriors. The only difference statistically between the two is that they possess +1 Attack and Leadership and cost three points more. However, their most useful function is quite simply the astounding number of special and heavy weapon slots they have at reasonable prices. This allows them to be outfitted in several different effective configurations, the two most effective of which I shall now detail:-

-Blastboat configuration:- Simply put, you take four Trueborn, equip them all with Blasters, and place them on a Venom for an instantly effective anti-tank unit. Four shots at Strength 8 with the lance effect at 18 inch range is deadly. The strategy is very similar to that of melta-vets for IG. In total, it comes to 163 points, or, with 5 Trueborn, 175 exactly. Pricey for such a fragile unit, but extremely effective nonetheless. You zoom the unit forward, then take potshots at passing tanks. Simple, and doesn't require much in the way of tactical brilliance, but exceedingly effective.

-Shardboat Configuration:- Something that not many people have actually noticed yet, is that any Trueborn squad member can trade in his splinter rifle for a Shardcarbine at +5 points. Shardcarbines allow Assault 3 poisoned shots at AP5 within an 18” range. Therefore, a squad of five Trueborn in a Venom with a second Splinter Cannon upgrade, plus two splinter cannons themselves, and three shardcarbines is a unit capable of pumping out an absolutely shocking amount of firepower. You get 4 shots from each of the splinter cannons as assault weapons, and 3 from each of the Shardcarbines, resulting in a whopping 13 shots straight off the bat! That's without even including the 12 from the Venom! Such a unit costs exactly 160 points. So again, pricey, but capable of extreme damage.

Indeed, I see the Trueborn as representing Dark Eldar strategy at its finest. The amount of firepower is overwhelming, and the army is speedy, but suffer from an inability to take much in the way of damage back. It still suffers from the old 'glass hammer', or 'fast but fragile' adages, and this unit, being one of its most competitive, is where those old sayings prove the most accurate. You'll have to be tactical about where you move them, and prioritise your targetsa right, or your Trueborn will be easily shot out of the sky and crushed. Nonetheless, a cost effective, and competitive unit by far.

Unit Name: Kabalite Trueborn
Optimal Function/s: Shooting Capability
Cost Effectiveness: Good
Tactical effectiveness: 9/10
Overall competitiveness: Very Competitive

Hekatrix Bloodbrides

What the Trueborn are to Warriors, the Bloodbrides are to standard Wyches. The points increase is identical, as are the stat increases, that is to say, 3 points in exchange for +1 Attack and Leadership. However, instead of gaining more in the way of special weapons, Bloodbrides can take one set of their special weapons per every three squad members, as opposed to every five. The Squad Sergeants upgrades are identical to those from the original squad as well. So to wit, a Bloodbrides squad is basically a slightly souped up wych squad. You'd use Bloodbrides in exactly the same situations you'd use Wyches, and they should perform just as well, just theoretically a little better. So you'd launch Bloodbrides in full squads of ten in a Raider with a Syren with an Agoniser, and three of their special wych weapons. You might choose to tack on Haywire Grenades for a spot of anti-tank.

Unfortunately though, Bloodbrides aren't significantly different from Wyches to be worth occupying an Elites slot as opposed to a troops slot. They're one of the dud units you get a feeling were thrown in at the last minute to make the codex seem bulkier than it is, or to allow GW to sell a Wych veteran upgrade kit at some point. Or, just to counterbalance the fact Warriors had veterans and wyches didn't. Tactically, they're as good as Wych Squad is, which is pretty good, but ultimately, being judged against their fellow Elite slot members, there are other far more useful units available.

Unit Name: Hekatrix Bloodbrides
Optimal Function/s: Anti-Monster/Anti-HQ
Cost Effectiveness: Average
Tactical effectiveness: 6/10
Overall competitiveness: Uncompetitive


Troops


Kabalite Warriors

Gone are the days of Sniper Squads, and cheap Raider squads. The first thing that jumps out and hits you in the face, is that Warriors are expensive now. They've gone up from 8 points to 9, and no longer have the cheap heavy weapon options of yore. However, much of their perception of becoming 'expensive' is solely due to increase in cost of heavy weapons and raiders. Think about it. In that single point increase, they've gained Night Vision, Power from Pain, and poisoned weapons. Pretty damn good eh? For a single point that is. However, the increase in heavy weapons cost and transport means that warriors are now viable in the following three configurations:-

-Sniper Boat Configuration:- Tried and tested from the days of yore, you kit out a warrior squad with a dark lance, stick it on a raider, and have it hang at the back of the battlefield with a night shield. However, dark lances are now more expensive for warriors, and you need a minimum of 10, meaning that with both shields, a sniper boat now weighs in at a pricey 195 points. Sniper Boats allow you some extra tank busting capability, freeing up Elite or Heavy support slots for other things, and by hanging around at the back of the battlefield with both shields, tend to be out of range of a lot of enemy weaponry. This often results in them staying untouched until the end of the game, where they're in a perfect position to nip out and claim an objective or two with the troops squad inside. More expensive than they were before, but still a perfectly viable tactic.

-Mini Blastboat Configuration:- Like their Trueborn allies, you stick 5 Warriors in a Venom, add a Blaster, and send them out tank hunting. With a Venom with dual splinter cannons, it costs 125 points, but gives you a fair boost in anti-infantry, and anti-tank in one go, along with another objective holding unit. If you have a few points to spare, upgrading a Sybarite with a Blast Pistol brings the unit up to 150 points, but enhances its effectiveness once again. I can honestly see Mini-Blastboats being one of the more effective troop choices, as it gives you two blaster shots, and 12 splinter cannon shots from the Venom. 3 or 4 taken together in a 1500 point list along with a pair of sniper boats gives excellent anti-tank capability, and multiple targets an opponent has to try and hit on top of everything else. This is a fast, relatively cheap, and effective way of fielding warriors.

-Shardsquad Configuration:- 20 Warriors on foot, with two splinter cannons. Costs exactly 200 points, and gives you a large squad of groundpounders to hold an objective. It also gives you a veritable hail of anti-infantry firepower, that's often lacking in other sections of the DE army list. The most expensive of the Eldar configurations, but tactically effective nonetheless

Warriors are still viable, but its no longer the case that spamming them with heavy weapons is an easy way to win. Dark Eldar armies are going tor equire far more in the way of synergy to work effectively now, and I think that's represented well in the Warrior choices.

Unit Name: Kabalite Warriors
Optimal Function/s: Ranged Capability, Objective Holding,
Cost Effectiveness: Good
Tactical effectiveness: 8/10
Overall competitiveness: Very Competitive

Wych Squads

Wyches are the same mono-purpose unit they've always been, I feel. The strategy behind them remains basically the same as its ever been. Wyches are mainly effective against powerful heroes, monstrous creatures, and hard hitting combat units. They tie them up with a 4+ invulnerable save, and utilise a Hekatrix with an Agoniser to dish out most of the damage.

The most effective upgrade of the three available seem to be the Hydra Gauntlets. They allow you to spam more attacks, whereas the Shardnet/Impaler will be wasted against regular combatants, and razorflails only allow you to re-roll a single models attacks and wounds. If specifically tooling to beat HQ and monsters, the Shardnet is a possibility, but if you're planning on using the squad as a multi-purpose unit, the Hydra Gauntlets are the optimum choice. Haywire Grenades could be considered a staple, as they allow the unit to double as one for tank busting, giving your force much greater versatility. A basic squad of 10 wyches on a raider, with Haywire grenades, 2 Hydra Gauntlets, a Hekatrix and Agoniser weighs in at 230 points.

As such, I personally wouldn't take more than one squad at 1000/1500 points. They're not specifically suited to tying up regular tactical squads and the like in combat, and whilst they can perform such a task adequately, its a slight waste of points when you could spend the points on another unit that can perform the task better. They're far too expensive to be feasible for spamming in large quantities, considering their weakness against enemy firepower, insuitability for holding objectives, and overall lack of tactical flexibility.

Unit Name: Wyches
Optimal Function/s: Anti-Monster/Anti-HQ
Cost Effectiveness: Average
Tactical effectiveness: 8/10
Overall competitiveness:- Usable Competitively


Wracks

Wracks are the new troops choice most people are talking about as being the best thing to happen to Dark Eldar since the Shadow Field. Well, let's see how they hold up to close analysis...

Toughness 4 troops with Feel No pain from the start of the match. Check for survivability. 2 poisoned weapons, giving them 3 poisoned attacks on the charge, along with up to two liquifier guns. Check for assault potential. A squad sergeant capable of getting power weapons. Check for anti-MEQ abilities. Can be taken as troops as long as you have one Haemonculus. Check for Objective holding. No anti-tank capability it seems. And not fleet, so transport seems a must. No real ranged ability, so no good for sitting on your own objectives at the back of the field. At 10 points a model, as cost effective as the Warriors, and probably moreso than the Wyches.

It seems that Wracks give the Dark Eldar some shock troops with a bit of ooomph to them. Tactically, keeping them on your side of the field would be a mistake, with no ranged firepower, and you'll have to be sure to avoid any rock hard combat units or walkers. Nonetheless, at their cheap price, definitely viable. I would advise against maxing out solely on Wracks, as their sole function appears to be the storming of your opponents objectives. One or two squads per game would appear to be sufficient.

Fielding them in squads of ten on a raider with two liquifier guns would seem to be the optimum delivery system. As shock troops, it would be wasteful to do things in half measure(aka, squad of five in a venom), and would greatly reduce their impact. In terms of upgrades, an Agoniser would be the best, as with only Strength 3, eithe rof the Gauntlets, or an electrocorrosive whip would be wasteful. If you're giving him a hex rifle, you have the wrong idea about their role on the battlefield altogether. A scissorhand would be cheaper effective weapon, but at 15 points to the agonisers 20, you might as well go the whole hog and buy the agoniser. As they already possess Feel No Pain, and have Poisoned weapons, attaching a haemonculus would strike me as being a spot wasteful. Gaining Furious Charge means little when you're already wounding on a 4+.

A unit of 10 plus 2 liquifier guns and upgraded Acothyst with Agoniser weighs in at over 200 points, making Wracks the most expensive troops choice, even if they're possibly the most effective one. So as with the Wyches, a squad or two, and no more, or you risk having nothing to work with at range. On the whole though, an excellent shock troops unit.

Unit Name: Wracks
Optimal Function/s: Combat Capability, Enemy Objective holding
Cost Effectiveness: Good/
Tactical effectiveness: 9/10
Overall competitiveness: Very Competitive


Fast attack

Hellions

Hellions haven't caught much publicity in this edition, mainly because of the excitement over Wracks. Yet a close examination actually shows them to be relatively good units, and definitely worthy of more attention than they've otherwise received thus far. Let's run the analysis.

Hellions can be taken as troops in the new edition with the inclusion of Baron Sathonyx. So, objective holding? Check. Firepower? They have Splinter Pods, which allow Assault 2 poisoned shots with 18 inches. That means in terms of basic weaponry, they're virtually as good as two warriors. So Check. Combat ability? They have combat drugs, and their hellglaives give them 2 base attacks at strength 4. So 3 strength 4 attacks on the charge. So Combat unit check. Against MEQs? Well, their Hellarch can take a phantasm grenade launcher, and an agoniser. So check. Special weapons? None. Mobility? Well, they're jump infantry allowing a 12” move, and deep strike. So check. Anti-tank? None. Durability? Only a 5+ armour save, making them relatively fragile to enemy fire. Points cost? 16 points apiece. Considering that's basically 7 points for a better combat weapon, an upgraded splinter rifle, and to be jump infantry. That's decent cost effectiveness. Not amazing, but fair.

Hellions are actually fairly versatile units. Their only two real weaknesses are a lack of special weapons, and low armour save. The latter can be rectified by attaching a Haemonculus at the start of the game. Conversely, as jump infantry, they're eligible for cover saves until they get into combat, meaning you can terrain hop them if you're prepared to take a risk. With a decent amount of firepower available to them, there's no need to rush them into combat on the first turn, certainly. Indeed, Baron Sathonyx seems to implicitly promote this idea, giving stealth to any unit he joins.

A unit of 10 Hellions with a Hellarch w/Phantasm Grenade Launcher and Agoniser racks up at 205 points. Marginally more expensive than a Shardsquad of warriors(5 points), and only capable of half as much firepower, but it possesses a decent amount of combat capability, and much more maneoverablility. Also cheaper than a unit of Wyches or Wracks. So not too badly overcosted. If it was 50 points less, it would be a no-brainer, at 200, a bit more dubious, but still within acceptable parameters.

For those still uncertain, a bit of mathhammer. Assuming you charge a standard MEQ squad, 3 attacks per hellion equals 27 standard attacks, and 4 agoniser attacks. That's 13.5 hits, and 6.75 wounds. Odds are, that's two dead marines. 2 agoniser attacks will hit, one will wound. Overall, three dead marines, not too shabby. 'Only 3?', you might think. But to put it in context, statistically, a tooled out Archon with 4 Incubi only kills 5 on the charge. And this is without including shooting. If you take 20 poisoned shots into account as well, 13.3 will hit, and 6.71 will wound, resulting in another two dead marines. That actually places them statistically on par with the Lord and Incubi.

Now whilst this in no way shows them to be the next broken cheesehammer unit, its not meant to. I'm just demonstrating how they're not actually be the terrible units they once were. They're an interesting tactical option, and whilst not so broken you HAVE to take them, they're certainly worth a trial run or two.

Unit Name: Hellions
Optimal Function/s: Objective Holding, Combat Capability, Ranged Capability
Cost Effectiveness: Good
Tactical effectiveness: 7/10
Overall competitiveness: Usable Competitively


Scourges

Scourges, like the Hellions, have been revamped from absolutely useless, to actually pretty damn good. They've been upgraded to a 4+ save, and given a much wider range of heavy weapons and cheap prices, not to mention shunted over to the Fast Attack slot, so they don't force you to choose between them and Ravagers.

At 22 points apiece, the seem pricey initially, but then you look at the cost of the weapons. Not a single one tops 15 points. The shredder is, of course, useless. There's been much excitement over the new heat lance, but to be frank, its an 18” weapon. Whilst the Scourges have a 4+ save and Power from Pain now, jumping them that close to the enemy is virtually begging for them to get wiped out. Especially when you consider that your squad size is usually going to be about 5 models.

Why 5? Because that means its only 110 points, plus the cost of the two heavy weapons. This makes them small, and cheap. I see them in the following two configurations

-Sniper Squad Configuration:- Squad of five, two dark lances. 140 points. You can sit them at the corner of the field out of harm's and most enemy weaponry's way. At such a price, bar Ravagers, this is the cheapest way to get Dark Lances.

-Shardsquad Configuration:- This is my favourite, and I think, the optimum way of using them. Scourges come with shardcarbines standard, so making a squad of 5, and giving them two splinter cannons is a distinct possibility. At 130 points, the amount of firepower they're capable of putting down is nothing short of astounding(3 shardcarbines+2 splinter cannons =21 shots). Were I ever planning on taking a full squad of ten, it would be a unit with maxed out Splinter cannons. As assault weapons you can move with them as well.

As you can see, Scourges are cheap and cheerful, and an easy way to fill any gaps your army may be lacking in offensive firepower. They're not be the hardiest of models though, so it would be wise not to get them in too close to the fighting, and in range of too much weaponry. Sticking with Splinter Cannons and Dark Lances as opposed to Blasters or Heat Lances allows you to engage at range, and run much less risk of being killed off by a barrage of casual small arms fire. As Jump Infantry, its easy to reposition to ensure you stay away from enemy combat troops as well.

Unit Name: Scourges
Optimal Function/s: Ranged Capability
Cost Effectiveness: Excellent
Tactical effectiveness: 8/10
Overall competitiveness: Very Competitive

Beastmasters

A Beastmaster Squad is comprised of a numbe rof different creatures, similar to the Archon retinue. As such, let's examine them individually.

-Clawed Fiend:- The Clawed fiend is the third of the three monsters in the new Dark Eldar list. Like the others, he's strength and toughness 5, but he has four wounds and four attacks. He also gains an attack for every wound he loses, bringing him up to a maximum of seven base. However, he's 40 points, the same number as a Hammernator. He also has virtually no save(6+) and does not benefit from Power from Pain. On his own he suffers from classic Ogryn syndrome. He's also a max of one per Beast pack, so no spamming them like you might consider doing with the Sslyth.

-Khymerae:- Khymerae are the most numerous, with up to 5 available per squad. With 3 attacks at Strength 4, and a 4+ invulnerable, Khymerae initially seem similar to the Ur-Ghuls. However, at a mere 12 points, Khymerae actually aren't too bad for the points cost.

-Razorwing Flock:-Razorwings are similar to the bat swarms in the LOTR games, high wounds and attacks, but low strength and toughness. With rending however, Razorwings are marginally more effective. A steal at only fifteen points as well.

Now you have to take beastmaster for every type of animal. So for every single Clawed fiend, a Beastmaster is necessary, one for every two razorwing flocks, and one for every 5 Khymerae. There's also nothing to stop you taking multiples of the same beast over and over. I personally would consider the optimum squad to involve multiple razorwing flocks and Khymerae. Why? Because by spamming Razorwing flocks, you get multiple rending attacks, and by maxing out on cheap Khymerae, you can defend the Razorwings from Instant death through having more Khymerae, so you get to use their 4+ Invulnerable save.

So for example, I could take a squad with 5 beastmasters, one with an agoniser, 6 razorwing flocks, and 10 Khymerae. This unit comes in at 290 points, expensive no doubt, but with 30 base attacks at strength 4 from the khymerae, and 30 rending attacks from the razorflocks, whatever it hits is pretty much guaranteed to be dead! That's without even considering the agonsier attacks, or those from the other beastmasters! However, if you want a cheaper alternative, removing 5 khymerae, 2 razorwing flocks, and their respective beastmasters slashes the unit cost down to a respectable 176 points. Not quite as much killpower, but still rather dangerous nonetheless. The unit doesn't have fleet listed as one of its special powers, but according to the main rulebook, all Beasts receive fleet regardless. Just an interesting thing to note.

The main problem the unit suffers from, is that it seems to have no purpose. Everything it specialises in, is covered elsewhere. Want big beasts? Take Sslyth or Grotesques. Want to take out special characters and beasts with rending? Why not just take squad of wyches to effectively do the same thing? Beastmasters suffer from a chronic lack of purpose, there's nothing they can do that isn't already adequately covered elsewhere in the codex. They're also not cheap enough that taking them is a no brainer. This means that when it comes down to taking a seemingly aimless unit, or another unit of Scourges, I know pretty well which one I'm going to pick.

Unit Name: Beastmasters
Optimal Function/s: Combat Capability
Cost Effectiveness: Average
Tactical effectiveness: 5/10
Overall competitiveness: Uncompetitive

Reaver Jet-Bikes

Reavers have gained one of the more interesting new abilities in the new book, with the power to zoom over opponents, and do D3 Strength 4 hits for each jetbike whilst turbo-boosting. They've had their armour save downgraded to a 5+, and the options of the squad severely curtailed. They're also no longer strength 4. Having said that, their price has plummeted by 3 points as well, to match the new, worse statline. The Squad leader has also had most of his options cut off. All the old stuff has been replaced with, is quite simply a few weapon options for the squad leader, and the ability to take a Grav-Talon, allowing you to pin squads hit by the new turbo-boost rule, and cluster caltrops, which do D6 S6 hits instead of D3 S4.

I must admit, I'm more underwhelmed by this new ability them most people appear to be. Most seem to to glance at the shiny 3+ cover save for turbo-boosting and assume that means that you can inflict damage on the foe with impunity, whilst being invulnerable to any countermeasures. Well, for starters, any kind of flamer weapon ignores that, so you need to be careful of where you position them. Secondly, the 'flyby' rule doesn't seem as great as it first appears. The number of hits you get depends heavily on how many points you're prepared to sink into the unit. A maximum squad of 10 jetbkes, plus grav talon and two cluster caltrops is a whopping 270 points. Once you've finished kitting out your troops, HQ and anti-tank measures, you don't often have that kind of points left lying about to casually blow on a unit that deals randomised amounts of damage, with a power that actually has no power weapon capability. Using the flyby rules, I find it difficult to see how a unit will satisfactorily make back their own points value. I admit, I've done no real math-hammer on this one, and will leave that to heads better than mine at it (all the randomised factors are beyond my talents). I quite simply personally, wouldn't commit so many points to a random amount of damage, when I could spend the same amount of points, on say a squad of 10 Scourges with 4 splinter cannons, that lays down a guaranteed amount of fire every turn(which probably exceeds the amount of damage its even possible for the Reaver squads to inflict, now I loook at the math).

This is not to say Reavers are necessarily bad, but that you should use the flyby rule as a bonus, rather than their core purpose. Indeed, I personally see Reavers working in primarily the same functions they did in the previous codex. That is to say, either:-

-Reaver Blade Configuration:-This is where you purchase a small unit of 3 Reavers for the sole purpose of tank busting. You can no longer grab 2 blasters in such a small squad, but with the new turbo-boost rule, getting within effective melta range with a heat lance should be no great chore. At 78 points, this is a small, effective, and overall cheap tank busting unit. Its role will no doubt prove to be suicidal, but it usually gets the job done.

-Dagger Configuration:-Again, 3 reavers, but kitted out with a squad leader with an agoniser. Nowhere near as good as it was in last codex, where you had the choice of many upgrades, but still just about viable at 96 points. Dagger formations are used primarily for piling in a few Power weapon attacks where needed to support wyches or Incubi, or any other unit. It can also be used a flanking unit, engaging devastator or fire warrior squads, to cause maximum disruption. Not mutually exclusive with the Reaver Blade formation though, I may actually consider combining the two roles together.

As far as I can see, the Reavers primary role should be as a stealth suicide unit, thrown into the fray at the correct point of the battle to decisively lever it one way or another. They're quick, allowing to get to where they need to be, and the extended turbo-boost only accentuates that aspect. The cover save helps ensure they stay alive until you decide you need them.

Unit Name: Reaver Jetbikes
Optimal Function/s: Combat Capability/Tank Busting
Cost Effectiveness: Good
Tactical effectiveness: 8/10
Overall competitiveness: Usable Competitively

Heavy Support

Ravager

The Ravager is the traditional workhorse gunship of the average Dark Eldar force. Mounting a trio of Dark Lances, its base value of 105 points remains untouched. Generally speaking, in the previous edition, you'd kit it out with a night shield, and depending on your armies particular weakness, kit it out with disentegrators as appropriate. This role has not changed. However, in the new Codex, the Ravager gives more bang for its buck in most regards than it did before. Disentegrator Cannons are now a free upgrade, meaning a previous potential of 15 points expenditure is no longer the case. Night Shields have seen their cost cut in half. It also has the option of upgrading to a flicker field for another ten points, giving it a 5+ invulnerable save, and far more survivability. It's also gained the Aerial Assault rule, allowing it to fire all weapons whilst moving at Cruising Speed, helping it to stay one step ahead of the enemy in terms of movement.

So what's bad about it? Well, Disintegrator Cannons are no longer quite the behemoth they used to be. Gone are the days of Strength 7 AP 2 blast markers. We're now restricted to a Strength 5 AP 2 gun capable of 3 shots a turn at 36 inches. Indeed, it seems to be a combination of the two modes previously used, and is in no way a bad gun, but the simple fact that you're offered less choice, which in turn, gives you less tactical possibilities could be seen as a negative. However, when viewed in light of what the Ravager actually costs (125 points with both upgrades), and compared to the substantial gains the unit has made in survivability and points effectiveness, it becomes difficult to place any real negative emphasis upon a minor retraction of slight tactical flexibility against hordes and light vehicles.

With the loss of cheap anti-tank squads, the Ravagers new use appears to be becoming the mainstay tank buster of the Dark Eldar force at first. However, once one identifies the several other cost effective anti-tank roles in the list, from trueborn upwards, it quickly becomes apparent that the Ravager does not HAVE to be used in such a way, its not the ONLY effective anti-tank unit the Dark Eldar possess. Depending on your army build, it is possible to field only one Ravager in a purely anti-tank role, and equip the other two for infantry killing like before. In such a scenario, a Vect build with two disentegrator cannons, and a dark lance would prove advantageous to busting light tanks and heavy infantry alike. However, cast in a purely anti-infantry role, you must then compare the anti-infantry ravagers effectiveness to a Razorwing kitted out for a similar purpose, and judge which would be better for you based on your points cost(see Razorwing entry).

However, to conclude, the Ravager is still the excellent value mainstay battle tank as ever, and has gained much in the new Codex.

Unit Name: Ravager
Optimal Function/s: Anti Tank, Anti-Infantry
Cost Effectiveness: Excellent
Tactical effectiveness: 8/10
Overall competitiveness: Very Competitive

Talos Pain Engine

The Talos is a bizare one. It and its new Cronos ally are potentially the slowest units in the entire Dark Eldar armoury, which considering their Monstrous Creature status, can be troublesome, as it gives an enemy plenty of time to pump shots into them before they get near to the enemies lines. So to analyse all aspects in order:-

The Talos is quite clearly a beast designed solely for combat. It carries a single ranged weapon as base, a twin linked splinter cannon, allowing six re-rolled poison shots a turn. However, the Stinger Pod granting you some extra oomph against Infantry units, giving you two Strength 5 AP 5 blast markers at 24”, or a twin linked Heat Lance to give you some extra anti-tank muscle. Whilst the Stinger Pod is nice, considering the Talos's crippling vulnerability to be over-run by hordes with death of the Power Klaw variety, the Heat Lance allows the Talos to multi-task, and become a threat to Vehichles as well. Such a choice would be open to the user, with both options completely feasible. However, if you upgrade a combat weapon to take a Liquifier Gun, the Heat Lance would appear to be the sensible choice.

Indeed, the optimal loadouts would appear to be either a Heat Lance, Twin Linked Liquifier Gun and additional Close Combat Weapon, or a Stinger Pod, Chainflail, and additional Close Combat Weapon, both costing 130 points. The former offers more mult-tasking and tactical flexibility, whilst the latter promises more damage against Infantry overall, and goes some way to cover a main weakness of the Talos, that is to say its randomised attacks.

However, coming in at 130 points is pricey indeed, especially when one examines that one could get a Ravager for slightly less. The Talos is quite clearly designed to be used primarily as a fire magnet to soak up shots from the rest of your force, and seems quite excellent in this regard at Toughness 7. But then one notices the low number of wounds (3), and realises it wouldn't take much in the way of Anti-tank weapons to put it out of commission, not to mention the fact that being an incredibly slow unit, its liable to get taken out before it ever gets into combat. Should it managa to destroy a unit, the resulting Feel No Pain would render it virtually impervious to enemy fire, but the main difficulty appears to lie in getting it into such a position.

Ultimately, the Talos appears to be overcosted for what it does. It posseses promise, and battlefield potential, but the sheer amount of effort that would be needed to devoted to keeping it alive, combined with its lack of speed, and mild randomisation stop it being a cost effective choice when compared to other options in the Heavy Support section.

Unit Name: Talos Pain Engine
Optimal Function/s: Combat Capability, Anti-Infantry Firepower, Anti-Tank Firepower
Cost Effectiveness: Average
Tactical effectiveness: 7/10
Overall competitiveness: Uncompetitive

Cronos Parasite Engine

A variation on the Talos, the Cronos sacrifices most of its ability in combat, in order to provide the ability to augment your other units with pain tokens. The general rule of thumb is that whenever it kills an enemy model, by whatever means, you get to add a pain token to a nearby unit. Naturally, you would take all available weaponry when fielding it, so as to maximise pain token output. With a Spirit Vortex and Spirit Probe upgrade, the Cronos comes in at 110 points. Not too expensive, but not too cheap either.

The spirit vortex gives you an 18 inch Strength 3 AP 3 pie plate, the Spirit Syphon a Strength 4 AP 3 flamer template, and the Spirit Probe an extra Pain token boost from killing things in combat. If any of these devices results in your killing an enemy model (so for example, if I fired both weapons into an enemy unit, killing a minimum of one each time, and then charged, killing a minimum of oen enemy), you get to aid a pain token, allowing you to distribute up to 3 pain tokens in a single turn. With the low AP, and template weaponry, this is almost guaranteed, meaning that getting the Cronos to fulfill its initial purpose is actually relatively easy.

In terms of toughness, the Cronos is identical to a Talos, with 3 Wounds and a Toughness of 7. However, the first two pain tokens you received from its power would naturally go to itself, granting it Feel No pain, and Furious Charge, adding to its survivability considerably.

However, the main flaw the Cronos appears to run into, is that it can only distribute pain tokens to units up to 12 inches away. Considering the fluid nature of the Dark Eldar style, unless your list is Close Combat orientated, you're unlikely to have enough different units within 12 inches to fully benefit from the effects of the Cronos. If you have an army largely made up of close combat specialists, this weakness vanishes. The Cronos is decent value for points, and with its large damage templates and flamer template, it actually provides a substantial amount of low AP infantry firepower. Indeed, were it not so vulnerable due to its slowness, it would possibly be worth taking as an anti-infantry unit in its own right! It's synergy with Close Combat armies is excellent, however, in a more balanced spread of army selections, it becomes difficult to make it realise its true potential. To conclude, The Cronos would be a worthy addition to an army which maximises its abiltiies, but its lack of tactical flexibility renders it less useful in a more common build.


Unit Name: Cronos Pain Engine
Optimal Function/s: Combat Augmentation, Anti-Infantry Firepower
Cost Effectiveness: Good
Tactical effectiveness: 8/10
Overall competitiveness: Usable Competitively

Razorwing Jet Fighter

The Razorwing and its fellow the VoidRaven are the more expensive options of the Dark Eldar Heavy Support, weighing in at 145 points apiece. The first thing you notice is its base loadout of 4 missiles, and two dark lances. The second thing you notice is the free upgrade of the dark lances to disentegrator cannons. The third thing you notice is that in terms of Anti-tank, the VoidRaven has two Void Lances, giving it improved anti-tank capability over the Razorwing at identical points cost.

Therefore the logical method here is to tool out a Razorwing for anti-infantry firepower. Swapping both dark lances for disintegrators, upgrading the splinter rifles to splinter cannons, and adding the base night shield and flicker field bring the Razorwing in at 175 points. Upgrading a pair of missiles to Necrotoxin, and a single missile to a Shatterfield would complet the optimal loadout, but bring the unit cost up to 190 points, the same cost as a leman Russ Executioner without sponsoons. Wherein lies the problem with the Razorwing.

The cost. 190 points on a Armour 10 vehicle. Make no mistake about it, with such a heavy weapons loadout, your enemy will mark it as a high target priority. It's various shields won't last for any length of time, and odds are, it will die in a single turn of sustained enemy firepower. Now usually, this would be enough to wipe any unit from the possibility of being competitive. However! The Razorwing may fire all of its missiles in but a single turn, along with its other weaponry if you opt not to move it. This allows it a certain amount of leafblower potential, in that it can wreak absolute havoc on enemy foot based hordes, or even any substantial number of marines on foot. In order to even consider this however, the Razorwing is excluded from the lower points values, as its too many points for too big a potential risk. 1500 is the lowest I would personally consider this in. However, in modern missions, where virtually everything is tooled up and sat tight in a transport of some kind, the Razorwing risks hitting the board and being absolute redundant, and unable to scratch enemy infantry, ensconced safely in transports as they are.

Ultimately, the Razorwing can add a bit of edge to a game, and if used right, can pay off massive dividends. However, in the modern tournament scene, it is unlikely to be of much use, simply due to the over-reliance on transports. Such a reliance makes it incresingly difficult for a unit that would already be gambling on getting first turn against a favourable army, to inflict maximum damage being being destroyed.


Unit Name: Razorwing Jet Fighter
Optimal Function/s: Anti-Infantry Firepower
Cost Effectiveness: Average
Tactical effectiveness: 6/10
Overall competitiveness: Usable Competitively

VoidRaven Bomber

Unlike its fellow flying counterpart, the VoidRaven is designed for an anti-tank role. With two Void Lances, and a Void Mine, the VoidRaven possesses the strongest Anti-tank capabilities in the Dark Eldar arsenal. It has its armour upgraded to Armour 11 however, adding a touch of uncertainty to your opponent being able to nail it on the first turn, when upgraded with the Standard Night Shield and Flicker Field. With the two shields, in a purely anti-tank role, the VoidRaven comes in at 165 points, 40 points more than Ravager with 3 dark Lances identically equipped with both shields.

Now having seen tremendous amounts of math used in which both sides attemtped to prove that the Ravager was statistically better at killing tanks than the Void Raven, or vice versa, I've come to one simple conclusion. Both are pretty much likely to kill a tank as each other. As both possess the Lance rule, having a higher armour value is irrelevant, and the higher strength of the Void Lances is counterbalanced by the Ravagers extra shot. Theoretically, this ends in a win for the Ravager, because it's 40 points cheaper.

However, the addition of the Void Mine, the potential of adding a missile or two, and the Supersonic rule mean that the exchange isn't quite so clearcut in its victor. Added to the fact that there are some vehicles which are immune to the Lance rule (Monoliths and Land Raiders with Blessed Hulls spring to mind), and the VoidRaven appears to have a niche. Whilst the Ravager is the obvious winner in lower points costs, in 1500 points or more, swapping a single Ravager for a VoidRaven could prove beneficial, in that it adds a spot more tactical flexibility to your force. Adding a pair of Necrotoxin missiles for a relatively cheap amount also gives you the ability to do some damage to an infantry orientated list, whereas Ravagers tend to be stuck in one role. Therefore, to conclude, taking a single VoidRaven in a game of a decent point value would appear to be the tactically sound thing to do.

Unit Name: Voidraven Bomber
Optimal Function/s: Anti-Tank Firewpower
Cost Effectiveness: Average
Tactical effectiveness: 8/10
Overall competitiveness: Competitive

Careful. The official release date isn't until tomorrow. Even though pre-release copies of the codex have been available at LGS's for about a month now, the MODs have been locking these threads before the official release date to prevent "speculation."

My stuff got delivered thursday so I don't see why it would be a problem to post stuff. In fact the gamesworkshop site has the release date as the 5th.

I went to my local hobby store today and was reading the codex. They can table an army by turn 2. They can deep strike their tanks... I dont know about you but my marines are craping them selves right now.

I wouldnt be too worried. there's a distinct lack of rending and power weapon attacks in that army. for the most part they'll hit first sure but unless they assault you with two squads at the same time you'll live through it and then wreck their face. its all those heat lances and liquifier guns that I would be worried about.

First part added.

Wow Ketara. Great Job. A Really really good analysis with good thinking and plenty of insight. A really good and interesting read, even for someone who doesn't play Dark Eldar.
I particularly liked your review of the Archon's retinue where you were bringing a lot more sense than most that'll review the codex ("no poison to benefit! Grrrr!!!11!") and making many of the options really viable, until you brought in the rational and over-all perspective and said how as a unit they don't function well, particularly for a fast, fragile army that can have Incubi instead.

Seriously great review, I can't say that enough. I really imagine plenty of competitive armies being built akin to how you're describing them: based around Haemies or with an Archon/Incubi to lead the force.

Once again, great review. Probably the best of its type I've ever seen. I'm hooked and my lips hurt from lots of ass-kissing.

Great job man! I'll be picking up the codex in a few hours!

I've added Incubi.

I think you should compare different builds for Archon instead of just listing one and ignoring the rest.

You can tool him to kill squads too and I'm sure there are other uses too.

I was thinking of using Court with maxed out Slyths to give him t5 shield against str 6-9 shooting and then give him Clone Field, Ghost Plate, Agonizer and Grenades. Now he kills alot models when he attacks with high initiative so that when the enemy strikes back Clone Field soaks most of the hits and you can choose to ignore hidden power fists and klaws.

My goal here isn't to look at every single possible weapons combination for the Archon, good or bad. Instead, I've listed the ones I consider to be most cost and tactically effective, and given reasons for that. Feel free to disagree with my conclusions, but the example you've given there I would consider to be so flawed from a basic math-hammer and tactical standpoint, as to not even be worth mentioning.

I've added the rest of the Elites, as well.

I actually prefer the Succubus to the Archon. Much cheaper and able to inflict decent damage against most any unit if equipped with an agonizer. I also think there is a place for the Bloodbrides in a Wyche cult army. The extra attacks are always useful plus with three sets of shardnets they can shut down lots of other strong assault units. Trueborn leave me feeling a bit meh. Sure they have lots of firepower but they are really squishy too. I think Incubi will definitely be a staple unit as they are well worth their cost.

I agree with your point about not listing every possible weapon configuration, it's simply not worth your time for one thing and people should be given a kick in the right direction, not told to do something...

Really good so far Ketara, you did spell "metaphorically" wrong in the grotesque section btw, but it's a really good tactica so far and I agree with pretty much all the points you are making. Particularly regarding the elites and their potential uses (or lack of, Wyches/Harlies).
Although the harlequins do have their uses as they can use another units transport and could help deploy a WWP from what I've gathered. As you said though, they're out-classed in almost all cases by the Incubi.
My only real criticism is that I would say the Mandrakes are not potentially competitive. I'd expect that to be a very rare circumstance, particularly when competing for a place with Incubi and Trueborn, and their own flaws. Just my opinion though, but I like how you've actually seen a positive to them despite the complaints from everyone else. However, to me, '6/10' and/or 'uncompetitive' would still be better fitting.

Good Work Ketara, really impressed and I particularly look forward to your opinion on Scourges and Reavers...

Agree with most of the article. Mandrakes, however, are junk. completely uncompetitive.

Allow me to clarify here. When I say usable competitively, I mean as a wildcard. I have three categories, Uncompetitive, Usable Competitively, and Competitive.

Uncompetitive is units that could never work in a serious list, ever, because they quite simply have little redeeming use on the battlefield. Usable competitively means you could build a serious list and include them, it wouldn't be the most optimised list, but they'd still be a usable unit. Competitive is, as it says, competitive, you'd take it to tournies and the like. And thanks for the feedback guys.

I see now.....

Ketara wrote:My goal here isn't to look at every single possible weapons combination for the Archon, good or bad. Instead, I've listed the ones I consider to be most cost and tactically effective, and given reasons for that. Feel free to disagree with my conclusions, but the example you've given there I would consider to be so flawed from a basic math-hammer and tactical standpoint, as to not even be worth mentioning.

According to mathhammer the setup I mentioned does 4.64 wounds on MEQ in charge without shooting and 6.07 wounds with shooting. I left the Medusa's eye blast out because it is a template weapon with extreme variance, but of course it will only add more wounds.
Against boyz Retinue gets better because splinter fire ignores armor and saves in melee are lower but I haven't done the calculations.

Your Archon build with unit of 4 Incubi and one of them is upgraded to Klaivex (with onslaught and demiklaives) cost a bit more and does 6.88 wounds on MEQ in charge. Again I left Bloodstone out because templates are what they are.
Incubia are naturally way better against FNP and also get better with Pain Tokens. With larger units than the Venom sized one I used here wiping the enemy squad in your turn becomes likely and that is never good.


In tactical sense Court is tougher as it allows wound allocation and gets FNP against krak missiles and multilasers (and doesn't die if they connect). Both units have fleet but if it comes to shooting Court is way better. Court is also better at popping transports as Slyths have str 5 all the time and Ur-Ghuls have it in charge. Incubi become godless killing machines if they get 2 pain tokens but at that point their numbers have probably dwindled (if they get the tokens from combat that is).

As you can see the difference in raw killing power isn't extreme and both units have advantages.

I would also like to point that Huskblade isn't that special because against single wound or EW it is just a str 3 power weapon. Str 3 also means that you can't hurt Wraithlords or Talos/Chronos without furious charge or 1 in 6 drug and wounding is hard against other high toughness models too. Soul Trap pumps your str but requires you to kill MCs that you had trouble killing in the first place.

*sighs*
You'll note I did actually analyse a retinue build. There's a whole five paragraphs on analysing the units involved. I actually agree with you on several of the points, yet I find the end conclusion a little different. But since you seem quite insistent, I'll do a second analysis just for you, to try and get the point across...

From the points cost point of view...

Archon w/clone field, agoniser, ghost plate, haywire grenades
Retinue w/3 sslyth, 2 medusae, 1 lhamaean, 1 ur-ghul
Transport/ Raider
Total:-335 points.

Archon w/ shadow field, huskblade, phantasm grenade launcher, ghostplate armour, haywire grenades, soul trap
Unit of 4 Incubi
Venom
Total:-318 points

As I said, they're roughly parallel on the points cost.

From the idea of wounds against a basic tactical squad, assuming the charge...

Archon w/ agoniser-5 attacks, hitting on a 3+. I'll be generous and assume 4 of those 5 will hit. Wounding on a 4+, that's two dead marines without saves from the Archon.
From the retinue, the 3 Sslyth-15 attacks, hitting on a 4+. 7.5 hit, again, I'll be generous and make it 8. Wounding on a 3+, about 2.6 of those will fail. Again, I'll be generous, and assume only 2 will fail to wound. The marines will make their 6 armour saves, and pass 4 of them, leaving another two dead marines.
Lhamean-3 attacks, 1.5 hits, odds are one is going to wound. The marine may then fail his save, but the odds of all this are at about 0.3 dead marines.
Add the Urg-ghul-4 attacks, 2 hits, 1 wounds. Another 0.3 dead marines.
The two medusae-4 attacks-2 hits, wounding on a 5+, so roughly 0.6 wounds, plus the armour save totals out at 0.2 wounds.

To be generous yet again, that leaves 5 dead marines.

Archon w/huskblade- 5 attacks, 3+ to hit. I'll do the same there as I did for you above and assume 4 will hit. Wounding on a 5+, odds are, That's 1.3 dead marines.
Incubi-12 attacks- hitting on a 3+, that's 8 hits landed. Wounding on a 4+, that's 4 dead marines, no armour saves.

That leaves us with a total of a minimum of 5 dead marines taking away my generosity earlier with the archon to the incubi build. In combat, that leaves them doing the same amount of damage after being generous to retinue, and not to the incubi.

Now if we were to include the shooting from the 3 Sslyth, that's 9 shots, 6 of which connect, 3 wound. That equals another dead marine.

So, thus far in the analysis, both look pretty equal, against the basic marine squad, They both do pretty much the same amount of damage. However! This is where the retinue begins to lose out.

Let's talk tactics. You tell me the Retinue is tougher because of their high toughness and automatic feel no pain. Sure. They'll probably last a little longer against shooting. However, in my eyes, that in no way increases their tactical value. Why? Because the role I envisage for our alternative command squads here is against enemy crack combat squads. MEQ squads are just a bonus. Let's give a common example...

The enemy is no longer a tactical squad! Instead, we have

Space marine Chaplain w/ Terminator armour
Terminator Assault Squad w/thunder hammers and storm shields

Against the retinue! You guys strike first:-

Archon hits on a 3+, wounds on a 4+. Say 2 wounds, against the chaplain. 1 wound saved due to rosarius.
Sslyth-Using the same calculations as above, the Sslyth inflict 6 wounds. 1 terminator fails his save and dies.
Rest of the retinue-using same calculations as above, inflict another 2 wounds on the terminators. Odds are, terminators will save both.

Result, 1 wound on chaplain, 1 dead terminator. The terminators will the obliterate the squad. You have no 2+ invulnerable save for the lord(meaning only one hit is required for instant death), and the thunder hammers will ensure that sslyth that survive will be striking simultaneously next turn. Odds are, you've lost this combat. Let's see how the Incubi fare...

Archon hits 4 times, does about 1.3 wounds on the Chaplain. The chaplain has a 50% chance of saving that. If even 1 wound gets through, he's dead. Odds are, even with his invulnerable save, he's as likely to die as not.
Incubi land 8 hits, and 4 wounds. With a 3+ Invulnerable, we're looking at roughly one and a half dead terminators.

That leaves a dead chaplain and 1.5 dead terminators. Only slightly more damage that the retinue (you may point out I'm assuming the chaplain, but considering how generous I've been to the retinue in overall calculations, I'd say the odds are still about the same). Now the resulting combat will be absolutely horrible, and quite possibly wipe out the Incubi. However, the difference is that in combats like these, the one who kills the most first tends to have the advantage.
Suddenly, the terminators have 8 attacks total, with 4 hits and kills. Wipes out the Incubi squad. The Lord however, will then go on to kill at least one more terminator in the following round, and with a 2+ Invulnerable, will have a chance to of making it out alive on a pile of dead termies.

In terms of actual tactical use, The tooled up Lord and Incubi are generally nastier because of the Power weapons. They're more useful tactically speaking, and the Incubi as a unit have far more in the way of upgrade potential. Having run through this, I could see where having a fully upgraded Klaivex would really make the killing difference, especially against those Termies! Running through this little simulation hasn't convinced me the retinue is superior, I'm afraid. However, it HAS convinced me that maybe the Sslyth aren't as bad as previously thought.
I'll amend them up to Usable Competitively as a result.

In terms of actual tactical use, The tooled up Lord and Incubi are generally nastier because of the Power weapons. They're more useful tactically speaking, and the Incubi as a unit have far more in the way of upgrade potential. Having run through this, I could see where having a fully upgraded Klaivex would really make the killing difference, especially against those Termies! Running through this little simulation hasn't convinced me the retinue is superior, I'm afraid. However, it HAS convinced me that maybe the Sslyth aren't as bad as previously thought.
I'll amend them up to Usable Competitively as a result.

First I would like to point that you have missed some attacks. Archon has 4 base attacks, +1 from pistol and +1 from charge. Then you ignored the 2 shots from Archons and Lhameans pistols that wound on 2+. It is not much but I did my calculations with those.
Incubi hit hard that is clear to everyone,. But saying that some build is so bad that "isn't even worth mentioning" without backing it up more was bit strong. I also don't need you to be generous, if I'm wrong then I am (calculations should be correct though)

The tactical aspect is still not that clear though. In your example you fight Assault Termies but I'd say that DE don't need a tooled HQ hammer to fight them.
10 Wyches with 2 Shardnets and Agonizer will tarpit and kill 5 ass termies any day and for minimal cost. Incubi annihilate everything that relies on armor saves and fnp but fighting against power weapons and invulnerable saves isn't their cup of tea. And when saves get lower like against boyz or IG then Court starts to shine.
And remember that nothing stops me from dropping the Clone Field for Shadow Field, if I'm expected to fight against massed Thunder Hammers or such like.

Much of the Retinues tactical effectiveness comes from the starting S5, I can penetrate vehicle rear armor from the go. Incubi need extensive support from either Haemonculi or Chronos or probably both to do the same. Court is the only way to get Raider in the HQ slot save the Vects pimp mobile. You can't have more than 9 transports without the Court (save Vect again).

You say that T5 FNP wounds aren't a tactical advantage, well what if you get hit by a Battle Cannon (it scatters into melee for example)? If the Cannon fails to score hit to every model in the squad the wound allocation kicks in. I don't put a single wound in Archon and I get the normal cover saves and 3 FNP saves against the wounds and Slyths can survive unsaved wounds too. If the same thing happens to Incubi you lose a model for every failed save. I can also remove less important models before I start touching the Slyths.

But in the end this debate isn't about the Court's killing potential compared to Incubi, they are in different FOC slots after all. If I want to take 3 units of Trueborns or use Hekatrix who have invulnerable save unlike the Incubi and thus are much better against stuff like TWC or Banshees (I can see someone using those against DE) then Court is a very good option.

I just wanted to point out that Incubi aren't a no-brainer choice and that the Court has it's uses. It depends on entirely what you are fighting against and what are the other units you want to use.

You say the tactical aspect is still not clear. Allow me to lay it out in the simplest of terms then.

-The Incubi have far more upgrade potential. I can make them a nastier combat unit than you could ever make out of a retinue.
-Your high points cost Sslyth are incredibly vulnerable to heavy bolters and autocannons. A high toughness is all very well and good, but with such a poor save, they get removed easily to the heavier anti-infantry guns.
-If you're sending such an expensive combat squad tank-hunting, then odds are, you're probably not placing your combat squad where its most needed.
-Incubi are generally more efficient at chopping through infantry. Which is, after all, their given role.
-If a dedicated combat squad cannot hold its own against another dedicated combat squad, then you need to re-evaluate its value, as this is what will often end up happening.

Your initial statement was:-

I was thinking of using Court with maxed out Slyths to give him t5 shield against str 6-9 shooting and then give him Clone Field, Ghost Plate, Agonizer and Grenades. Now he kills alot models when he attacks with high initiative so that when the enemy strikes back Clone Field soaks most of the hits and you can choose to ignore hidden power fists and klaws.

Taking the shadow field over a clone field is a no brainer, than telling me the sslyths are there to act as a shield against high strength shooting, when they have such poor saves themselves against high strength anti-infantry, than going on about how his high initiative would allow him to 'kills alot models when he attacks'. You made it sound like you were planning on romping them across the battlefield on foot, with no particular goal in mind.

That was what I said was not worth considering.

If you're going to turn around and argue from the viewpoint of a properly tooled up squad, change the wargear, and start arguing how the rest of your army list could make up for those deficiencies, be my guest. That is, however, beyond the scope of this article, and would be better placed in another thread. I'm discussing each units individual merits, not how well it does in whatever hastily thrown together armylist you can think of.

As you've said, this isn't an Incubi vs Retinue debate thread. We can sit and go , 'Yeah, but this unit is better against that one', 'yeah, but what if it ran into this one instead?', all day. You end up with batman vs superman, and to be frank, I have no interest in discussing that. The first thing you said was so pointless from a tactical standpoint, I didn't bother to respond. You then replaced that with something else altogether and more intelligible afterwards, which I responded to in like manner.

I just wanted to point out that Incubi aren't a no-brainer choice and that the Court has it's uses. It depends on entirely what you are fighting against and what are the other units you want to use.

That's true. However, I could make that argument to justify taking about any unit in any codex, from ogryns on down.

Great review so far, Ketara. It's great to see a sober review without succumbing to a "OMG SW are so much better! DE = Fail!" mentality. As a Dark Eldar player from the beginning (12 years now, geez) I'd say I agree with all your assessments with only a few questions/corrections:

- Small note, Sslyth will benefit from the Llhamaean's (2+) Poison rule, so that's 6 (2+) shots from the Sslyth's shardcarbines. Avg. 3-4 wounds (before saves) is pretty good before assaulting in IMO.

- I wonder why you focus (almost exclusively) on the Archon build w/Huskblade. For me, I see more versatility with the Agonizer builds. I understand you intend to HQ hunt with the Archon, but such a specialized role is situational on the army you're playing against. I'm on the fence, personally, and I'm going to be playing with both builds and see which is better overall "on the ground." With the streamlining of the combat drugs the Archon lost some punch now that he can't re-roll to hits every turn. Maybe you could give a comment or two on the Agonizer v. Huskblade?

- Your Haemonculus assessment of their different "types" is spot on. However, I just wanted to point out their uber-fragility as combat members. 6+/4+FNP is really nice, but since they're an independent character, they will be spotted and targeted in CC for a) the killpoint or b) to reduce # of attacks. Putting a power weapon or powerfist marine on the Haemy will butter his bread, and spending anything over 80 points on such a fragile CC is questionable, I think. You also want to save your points so you can field all 3 Haemys per slot to spread FNP love. In your Huskblade/scissorhand and animus vitae/soultrap build for CC, I'd volunteer that the simpler build of scissorhands + animus is the better road. But here it becomes a question of play-style and builds, which is great that we can talk about multiple builds in a DE army

- Incubi. I'm thrilled with the changes made to them except for one: no Plasma grenade option. You have to take an IC with them to be able to give them plasma grenades. In the 5th edition world of "cover = win" plasma grenades are huge. This is a huge drawback, and mainly the reason why I will only field them with an IC (most of the time).

Those are my 2 cents.

Keep up the good work!

Hey there Dax! Thanks for the comments. I'll respond accordingly:-

-Lhamaeans only upgrade their weapons, and those of the Archon. The rest of the retinue receives no upgrade whatsoever. I just checked it with the codex on my lap, so 100% certain on that one.

-You have a significant point on the Huskblade build. After some serious thought, and one or two points mentioned by Aetherse above, I shall probably amend the Archon article somewhat, and add an agoniser build. I'll do that once I've finished writing all the unit entries, and garnering input however, just before I turn it into a Dakka article.

-Hmmm. I can see your point over the Haemonculus, and not spending too many points, but I think upgrading him to an ancient and equipping him well could still prove to be beneficial. I'll deliberate a little more on it, and include an amendment when done.

-Your point on the Incubi is also noted, and will likewise be included in the amendment.




Automatically Appended Next Post:
Troops have been added.

I'm curious what you think of trueborn in small squads with 2x darklances. I've been toying with the idea of trying a 3 man squad with 2 darklances - its cheap at 86 points, but is extremely fragile. Is this build worth trying? Do you think adding a couple bodies (2 more makes it 110 points for 5 bodies with 2x DL)?

Ketara wrote:-Lhamaeans only upgrade their weapons, and those of the Archon. The rest of the retinue receives no upgrade whatsoever. I just checked it with the codex on my lap, so 100% certain on that one.

Absolutely correct. I'm still memorizing some of the newer units


It's really fascinating how you rated warriors above wyches. Indulge me while I spiel:

If I had to give a pecking order for the troops I'd say Wracks, then Wyches, then Warriors. Wyches have always been one of the best Dark Eldar units. This edition is no exception IMO. Yeah, they lost the 1/2 WS rule (which was huge for tying up Bloodthirsters for a round or two before they died), but they gained so much more! The old wyches were 12 points base, +1 pt. per model for wych weapons and then another +1 pt for Plasma Grenades, so 14 points-ish. Now they're 10 points base, come equipped with PG, and wych weapons are 10 pts a piece (which averages out to +2 pts per model for a unit of 10).

But there's moar. They get the Night Vision and StP rules. StP for wyches is HUGE. No more will there be the agonizing question of when will your wyches win combat. Will they win in my turn and get shot to pieces in my opponent's?? 4+ FnP is wicked good for a unit that never EVER got saves from shooting. And they're cheaper! These girls are way better than they were, and now are even more survivable in combat against blob squads and tac marines. PLUS, they still have that wild card known as Combat Drugs. CD are really a 50/50 shot of making them significantly better (I understand running far and +1 WS are nice, but +1 Str and reroll wounds are so much better). I've never liked Wych Cult Dark Eldar, but these wyches make it damn hard not to take at least two units.

Just an aside, I respectfully disagree with your valuing hydra gauntlets over the shardnet. The reason why is, who are you going to throw wyches against? Assault units? They usually have +1 attack from CC or base characteristic. 2 shardnets half their effectiveness. Attacking troop choices? Sergeants, commissars, warlocks, Nobz, etc. all have -1 or -2 attacks. That means fewer invul saves you need to make without FnP. And against special characters they just downright neuter them.

Hydra Gauntlets are too random, and they simply add a small boost to offensive power. Shardnets, on the other hand, provide a defensive boost making your girls survive more and make your opponent suck. I do agree that they are problematical if you're assaulting a bland 10 man unit with only one attack each. However, too often your wyches will get locked into combat for a round or two and your opponent will send an extra squad to help out. Shardnets will take a lot of the brunt from the charge away. To me, Shardnets are like super-defensive grenades that can render characters useless. And while I won't be fielding Hekatrix Bloodbrides anytime soon, I'd much rather take a unit of ten of them with 3 Hydra Gauntlets. 33 attacks + 3d6 attacks on the charge + 5 Syren attacks = Annihilation. God help your opponent if you roll +1 attack for your CD.


Back to the warriors. They got hit a bit too hard, if you ask me. +1 pt for poison guns, StP and Nightvision is ridiculously good. But the army-wide increase in Heavy and Special weapons cost hit the lowly warriors the hardest. They are the last units you will expect to get a Pain Token (minus the obvious Haemy helper). Getting them too close to the enemy is asking for trouble with only 5+ armour and a 10/10/10 raider. I agree with all your categorizations for these guys. Personally, I will probably be taking a Sniper boat or a Blast Boat. Maximum of two warrior squads total in any list. Most often probably one, for fluffiness. I'm still curious to see how the standard 3rd ed. Raider squad loadout will do (10 warriors, blaster, SC, Syrabite with Venom Blade, w/ raider = 190).



My point is that wyches are really much better than Warriors for two facts: Faster accrual of Pain Tokens and more bang for their points. Warriors I feel will be relegated to the "fluffy" troop choice while Wracks and Wyches dominate the effectiveness category.

(Also, Wracks +Haemy = FC and FnP from the get-go. Yeah only one Liquifier if you put them in a raider, but assaulting with Str 4 Init 5 wracks? Rerolling wounds on T4? Good bye space marine squad )


I'm enjoying your analysis. Good reasoning is always valuable, even if I disagree with some of it! Makes me think from a different perspective.

Interesting to note, that mathammer suggests the Hydragauntlet is actually inferior to the razorflails on Bloodbrides due to their +1 base attack. On troop wychs, the hydra gauntlet shines. However, In testing I've found that you don't want to win combat as fast as is often forced by the hydra gauntlets. I'm starting to like taking 1x shardnet so that you can put him on the SGT of the squad you are assaulting, and 1x hydra. On bloodbrides I'm liking 3x shardnet as you are much more likely to put them up against an elite squad with multiple attacks.

The goal with wychs is to win every combat in exactly 2 rounds, so that you don't spend time out of CC. This means minimizing incoming damage and sometimes artificially limiting your output.

@Dax

My logic for rating Wyches beneath Warriors is realyl quite simple. In 5th edition, two out of every three missions is objective based. Warriors are able to hang back and shoot, or charge as desired. Not onyl that, they can squat on an objective, and with their heavy weapons, still play a meaningful role in the battle. They also have a slightly better armour save.

Wyches on the other hand, are not by their nature a stationary unit. Even with feel no pain, at toughness 3, they're very susceptible to enemy fire. They have to keep moving, keep assaulting. If you leave them standing around in the middle of the battlefield, they will get gunned down, feel no pain or no. Not only that, as they lack even blasters now, if they want to participate in the battle in any way, they have to keep moving. Added to the fact that there are far less variations in builds to limit what you can do with them, and I'd rate Warriors as the superior choice.

I find wyches excellent in their niche field as anti-HQ, crack combat units, and monsters. This isn't to say that they can't take on regular units, but to put it bluntly, why on earth would I use wyches as standard shock troops and objective holders now I have Wracks? Wracks get liquifier guns, toughness 4, and the pain token from the word go. Not only that, they cost pretty much an identical amount of points. In any situation which calls for standard shock combat troops as opposed to ones specialising against enemy HQ's, etc, Wracks are clearly superior.

I actually agree with you on the use of the Shardnet and Impaler to an extent, if you are going after combat troops or monsters with them, then yes, it's better choice. I meant to say that Hydra Gauntlets were superior if you were attacking basic guard/tactical squads, whilst shardnets were better against the more specialist stuff. It all just depends on exactly what you envisage your wyches doing. I'll clarify that a bit better when I amend the whole thing.

A point on the wracks is that their two combat weapons are poisoned already. This means that they already wound on a 4+ automatically. In that regard, Feel No Pain means a lot less for them, as that +1 strength has no impact on their ability to wound a standard Ork Boy, Marine, or Necron, they were wounding on a 4+ anyway.

@Dracos

I could see a small trueborn unit like that working out in 1000 point games. Maybe with 5 or so chaps instead of ten, but defintiely a possibility as a sniper squad. Thanks for pointing that use out, I missed it. I'll edit it in as a configuration in the amendment.

Ketara wrote: +1 strength has no impact on their ability to wound a standard Ork Boy, Marine, or Necron, they were wounding on a 4+ anyway.

Umm if you have STR = or > than the Toughness of your opponent with a poisoned CCW, then you reroll failed to wounds. the +1 STR gives you a 25% increase in your chance to wound (75% vs 50%) which seems like a significant impact. Its more of an impact than say going from 5+ to 4+ would be.

edit: Not only that, but going from I 4 to I 5 is far more beneficial to the Wrack than going from I 6 to I 7 is for the Wych. Overall the Wracks utilize the pain tokens far better.

EDIT:-I just reread and saw it. I retract my previous comment in light of my newfound knowledge.

One thing I'm not sold on is the Haemmies and the Warriors. I'm sold on Wracks, but I don't like how bad the Haemmies are in CC and therefore I have to takea haemmy to get wracks as troops, which I'm not yet sold on. I've been trying out Succubus with bloodbrides and wychs, using a squad of warriors to hold the backfield objective. Its been working quite well but it needs to be tested against some of the hardest lists around yet to try and see if it can win against those foes.

Overall I like reading your review to get other ideas and perspectives, keep up the good work Ketara!

The Incubi have far more upgrade potential. I can make them a nastier combat unit than you could ever make out of a retinue.

You say that Incubi have more options, and yes, they do kill a lot of stuff it you have 10 of them but with most players playing MSU you really don't want to kill more than 4 or 5 MEQ during your assault. Venom sized squads aren't much different from the Court.

Your high points cost Sslyth are incredibly vulnerable to heavy bolters and autocannons. A high toughness is all very well and good, but with such a poor save, they get removed easily to the heavier anti-infantry guns.

To be honest they are more durable against those weapons than Incubi because both are in cover for most of the time. Standing idly in the open just means catching missiles, plasma and other nastiness. Besides Heavy Bolter hit would cause 0.25 wounds on Slyth and 0.277 wounds on Incubi when both have FNP and neither has cover. Without FNP Incubi of course takes 0.55555 wounds.

If you're sending such an expensive combat squad tank-hunting, then odds are, you're probably not placing your combat squad where its most needed.

But I don't have to hunt tanks, I can pop one when opportunity rises without any extra setup. Transports tend to be near infantry you know?

-Incubi are generally more efficient at chopping through infantry. Which is, after all, their given role.

And yet you list multi-tasking in your criteria.

If a dedicated combat squad cannot hold its own against another dedicated combat squad, then you need to re-evaluate its value, as this is what will often end up happening.

But your argument was that against Assault Termies a Archon with Clone Field dies instantly. Both squads died to retaliation attacks. So that arguments wasn't Court vs Incubi it was Clone Field vs Shadow Field when fighting Thunder Hammers. Shadow Field won hands down I can agree on that.

So in conclusion neither Incubi nor Court could stand toe to toe against dedicated assault unit so are you saying that neither is a dedicated assault unit?
The truth is that if you want to kill something that has lots of power weapon attacks in melee you have to use Wyches or Hekatrix. Same goes with Dreads.

Court and Incubi are almost identical, they both kill rank and file infantry and lose when pitted against Power Weapons and invulnerable saves. Court is more durable and has better shooting while Incubi have more killing power against MEQ and both need joined IC to get grenades.
Court costs 145 points with 3 Slyths and 1 of everything else. With those points you get 6 Incubi or 4 Incubi if you want one of them to be Klaivex. I really can't see a big difference here.
Court doesn't need pain tokens and with Court you can get 1 more Raider than with Incubi. It doesn't compete with Trueborns for elite slots either.

Aetherse, if you want to make another thread on this, go ahead. I've given some responses, and you've yet to give me a convincing argument for retinues being of greater tactical use than Incubi, that I couldn't use to show how awesome Ogryns are.
You've made me rethink a few of my points, and I thank you for that, and will include them in my next amendment. But please stop derailing this thread into an incubi vs archon one thank you.

My logic for rating Wyches beneath Warriors is realyl quite simple. In 5th edition, two out of every three missions is objective based. Warriors are able to hang back and shoot, or charge as desired. Not onyl that, they can squat on an objective, and with their heavy weapons, still play a meaningful role in the battle. They also have a slightly better armour save.

I can get behind this logic. I never meant to imply that they were useless, but rather were outclassed by the wyches in point for point cost and efficiency in their roles. They're certainly good for holding an objective deep in your territory and still spitting out Splinter Cannon shots or dark lances. Wyches are for dislodging units on objectives and wracks are there to hold these newly freed objectives. Also, a 5+ save over a 6+ save isn't going to come into play that often in the shooting game. Most basic sidearms are AP 5 (save a few wonky guns and the ubiquitous lasgun, and hell, if lasguns are shooting at you, there're going to be way too many of them to make all your saves) so I don't think that this is a beneficial attribute.

Wyches on the other hand, are not by their nature a stationary unit. Even with feel no pain, at toughness 3, they're very susceptible to enemy fire. They have to keep moving, keep assaulting. If you leave them standing around in the middle of the battlefield, they will get gunned down, feel no pain or no. Not only that, as they lack even blasters now, if they want to participate in the battle in any way, they have to keep moving. Added to the fact that there are far less variations in builds to limit what you can do with them, and I'd rate Warriors as the superior choice.

Of course. Wyches keep moving and assaulting, utilizing cover as much as possible. If they're standing still, they're dead. Basic tactics. I'll concede that the lack of Blasters limits variation on their potential role on the battle field. I was arguing that they will be getting a pain point very quickly as opposed to Warriors. Both will probably only get FNP against most shooting, but Wyches will get FNP much quicker, making them more likely to survive than Warriors.

I find wyches excellent in their niche field as anti-HQ, crack combat units, and monsters. This isn't to say that they can't take on regular units, but to put it bluntly, why on earth would I use wyches as standard shock troops and objective holders now I have Wracks? Wracks get liquifier guns, toughness 4, and the pain token from the word go. Not only that, they cost pretty much an identical amount of points. In any situation which calls for standard shock combat troops as opposed to ones specialising against enemy HQ's, etc, Wracks are clearly superior.

It's a good point. Now that Dark Eldar have two CC units for troop choices, DE players are going to have to differentiate between CC roles. Wyches take care of assaulty-MC-HQ's, Wracks chew up standard troops. No objections to this at all.

I actually agree with you on the use of the Shardnet and Impaler to an extent, if you are going after combat troops or monsters with them, then yes, it's better choice. I meant to say that Hydra Gauntlets were superior if you were attacking basic guard/tactical squads, whilst shardnets were better against the more specialist stuff. It all just depends on exactly what you envisage your wyches doing. I'll clarify that a bit better when I amend the whole thing.

Makes sense. But like you said above, wyches are to be used most often as anti-HQ, anti-assault, and anti-MC. Thus, Shardnets are the standard load-out for wyches in my mind. If you're trying to play the most versatile, I'd say Shardnet and Hydra Gauntlet.

To rephrase my point in the wyches are better than warriors debate:

Yes, wyches are a specialized role. But they do it well. Warriors have no specialized role. And they don't really do anything really well. They're somewhat versatile at a cost of effectiveness. Wyches are more effective at their role for the same point cost with the more than likely potential for survivability.
Wyches = great CC, meh shooting. No special weapons.
Warriors = meh CC, decent shooting. Special weapons.

Like I said before, I'll probably keep a sniper boat or a 20 man squad on the objective closest to me, then send wyches and wracks to do the rest of the work. In my mind, I'd rather have 3 units of wyches than 3 units of warriors. However, I am thrilled that we can actually have a debate now over which is better, instead of the old foregone conclusions of mono-3rd ed-DE.


That said, I'll refrain from more debate on this so you can get on with your analysis. Hope I helped you look at things a bit differently! Looking forward especially to see how you rate the HS slots. That is the biggest debate, I think.



Automatically Appended Next Post:
@ Aetherse

Please go and make a new thread on your arguments. I think you'll be in the minority in the debate, but I'd like to see how it would pan out.

I would simply argue in wyches vs warriors, that Warriors are tactically better, as they can be prepped for a number of situations. Wyches do one thing, and do it well. If you take 3 units of wyches, odds are, they're not going to be as handy in as many situations as warriors would be, simply because there's less HQ choices/monsters around, as there are general infantry and tanks.

But that's about it. However, I do agree with pretty much most of your points.

Fast Attack is now up.

I disagree with the Reaver Jet-bike analysis. a unit of 6 with 2 cluster caltrops upgrades comes to a cost of 172 points, allowing one to drop 2d6 S6 and 3d4 S4 auto-hitting attacks. With a turbo-boosting range of 36 inches, they have the entire map as their range if deployed right.

Rolling it out many times, the squad will screw long-fangs and equivilants up pretty good just by moving over them.

Dracos wrote:One thing I'm not sold on is the Haemmies and the Warriors. I'm sold on Wracks, but I don't like how bad the Haemmies are in CC and therefore I have to takea haemmy to get wracks as troops, which I'm not yet sold on. I've been trying out Succubus with bloodbrides and wychs, using a squad of warriors to hold the backfield objective. Its been working quite well but it needs to be tested against some of the hardest lists around yet to try and see if it can win against those foes.

Overall I like reading your review to get other ideas and perspectives, keep up the good work Ketara!

Haemy
Liquifier Gun (or Shattershard for 5 more points)
Venom Blade
65 pts for this setup

-Gives a free pain token
-Wrecks squads with he liquifier
-4 Attacks with poison 2+ on charge, not bad concidering you only pay 65 points.

You really can't ask for more for that cheap.



As a side note, why is everyone saying that Wyches are for taking out MC's? Wyches are for handling GEQ and holding up deathstars, and can handle MEQ relitively well. However Wracks (with a Haemy) get 3 attacks on the charge at I5, Poison 4+, and the Haemy gets 4 attacks Wounding on 2+. That sounds like some solid MC killyness, as long as you take the MC down to about 4 wounds or less.

To me the major problem with Wracks as an assault unit versus Wyches is the lack of fleet. I would rather stick with the more mobile units.

Brother-Thunder wrote:I disagree with the Reaver Jet-bike analysis. a unit of 6 with 2 cluster caltrops upgrades comes to a cost of 172 points, allowing one to drop 2d6 S6 and 3d4 S4 auto-hitting attacks. With a turbo-boosting range of 36 inches, they have the entire map as their range if deployed right.

Rolling it out many times, the squad will screw long-fangs and equivilants up pretty good just by moving over them.

Bear in mind, I intend on using 30 Bikes in my 2000 point list, but the specifics of their Turbo-Boost attack limit flight runs a bit.

How do you propose to actually land the attacks on back line troops? You need around 5 things to line up before the unit is used to maximum efficiency.

A) Start your turn out of range of charges/flamers, after utilizing your 36 inch boost to close the distance first turn
B) A straight (or mostly straight) line overlapping with their target unit
C) Achieve a minimum of at least 18 inches or you lose your unit next turn
D) Space necessary to place models at the end of their flight run (vehicles, units prevent this)
E) Safe space where they won't be charged by anything capable of killing them/shot by flamers

I mean, it's going to be extremely difficult to pull off the maneuver all DE players are drooling over, hitting a unit for 30 STR 4 attacks, and fading off into the background to rely on FNP and a 3+ cover save before starting the attack all over again.

I see a lot more 10 attacks landed, and then being hit by flamers/assault/stiff breeze/tank shocked/plasma cannon/battle cannon and not being points efficient. The straight line restriction in the rules text is a fairly major balancing factor. If they could attack any one unit within their entire move, ending up anywhere - they would be the strongest unit in the book.

I guess the challenge is figuring out effective flight routes eh? I see the Reaver Jetbike unit being one of the biggest "skill test" unit in the book, scaling effectiveness based solely on the user.

It's actually not hard because they are jetbikes. The key is to position them with their initial turboboost first, then use it. You're not going to be able to use the trick every turn unless your opponent sucks at the game.

That being said, a fast 36" turboboost, access to melta, extra close combat weapons, access to agonizer, and combat drugs means that they have a lot more going for them than one little trick.

Warriors...are...underrated. They have a lot of synergy with a bunch of different units. Wyches are more of a move, disembark, assault kind of unit. Warriors are more like a driveby unit these days. I'm just sad that splinter racks don't work with splinter cannons.

I see an unusual use for the court. Ur-Ghul are strength 4 and come with furious charge. If you go first or steal the initiative, they are really good at killing transports. Move 12", disembark 3", fleet d6", assault 6. 5 urghuls put out 20 strength 5 attacks on rear armor. If you went first, those are autohits. And it doesn't take a force org slot or cost very many points.

On Beastmasters: They are underrated. Why? Because unlike most of the other hth units in Dark Eldar, they are very resilient to shooting. You actually want to take all 3 and do wound allocation shennanigans. Basic non-ID shots? Place on the razorwings or clawed fiends. As you run low on wounds, you can place wounds on khymera's with their 4+i save. The clawed fiends are also surprisingly good at taking out transports. They are beasts, so move 6, fleet, assault 12. Also, as the clawed fiend takes wounds he gains attacks. The main sadness is a lack of grenades. As good as incubi and wyches are, they still need a transport.

Defiler wrote:

Brother-Thunder wrote:I disagree with the Reaver Jet-bike analysis. a unit of 6 with 2 cluster caltrops upgrades comes to a cost of 172 points, allowing one to drop 2d6 S6 and 3d4 S4 auto-hitting attacks. With a turbo-boosting range of 36 inches, they have the entire map as their range if deployed right.

Rolling it out many times, the squad will screw long-fangs and equivilants up pretty good just by moving over them.

Bear in mind, I intend on using 30 Bikes in my 2000 point list, but the specifics of their Turbo-Boost attack limit flight runs a bit.

How do you propose to actually land the attacks on back line troops? You need around 5 things to line up before the unit is used to maximum efficiency.

A) Start your turn out of range of charges/flamers, after utilizing your 36 inch boost to close the distance first turn
B) A straight (or mostly straight) line overlapping with their target unit
C) Achieve a minimum of at least 18 inches or you lose your unit next turn
D) Space necessary to place models at the end of their flight run (vehicles, units prevent this)
E) Safe space where they won't be charged by anything capable of killing them/shot by flamers

I mean, it's going to be extremely difficult to pull off the maneuver all DE players are drooling over, hitting a unit for 30 STR 4 attacks, and fading off into the background to rely on FNP and a 3+ cover save before starting the attack all over again.

I see a lot more 10 attacks landed, and then being hit by flamers/assault/stiff breeze/tank shocked/plasma cannon/battle cannon and not being points efficient. The straight line restriction in the rules text is a fairly major balancing factor. If they could attack any one unit within their entire move, ending up anywhere - they would be the strongest unit in the book.

I guess the challenge is figuring out effective flight routes eh? I see the Reaver Jetbike unit being one of the biggest "skill test" unit in the book, scaling effectiveness based solely on the user.

This is basically my reasoning in a bit more detail. To use Reavers in this way can be difficult, and depending on the layout of battle, impossible. Now when I can take a unit of ten scourges with 4 splinter cannons capable of 42 guaranteed poisoned shots for the same price, why would I take the Reavers? Purely from a tactical and competitive point of view, I'd rather have a unit which isn't highly situational and randomised, especially when I'm spending this quantity of points on a single unit.

As a side note, why is everyone saying that Wyches are for taking out MC's? Wyches are for handling GEQ and holding up deathstars, and can handle MEQ relitively well. However Wracks (with a Haemy) get 3 attacks on the charge at I5, Poison 4+, and the Haemy gets 4 attacks Wounding on 2+. That sounds like some solid MC killyness, as long as you take the MC down to about 4 wounds or les

Because power fists and high strength attacks that ignore feel no pain make Wracks sad. With a 4+ Invulnerable save and Shardnets, wyches are far more long lasting, and won't get curbstomped by the first Carnifex with a 2+ save, or Daemon prince that comes along.

I see an unusual use for the court. Ur-Ghul are strength 4 and come with furious charge. If you go first or steal the initiative, they are really good at killing transports. Move 12", disembark 3", fleet d6", assault 6. 5 urghuls put out 20 strength 5 attacks on rear armor. If you went first, those are autohits. And it doesn't take a force org slot or cost very many points.

I like it. However, to take that step an idea forward, rather than an expensive retinue, using Khymaerae in that function may actually be a decent use for them. Haveg a squad of 10 for 120 points plus 24 points for Beastmasters? That's 144 points for a dedicated light vehicle/transport hunting unit, that has a 4+ Invulnerable save. I don't think its such an idea for a retinue, but for Beastmasters? That's the first tactically sound use I've heard or thought of for them. Thanks for the inspiration, I'll include that in the amendment.

Pretty much completely agree with you again Ketara. I think Wyches are great but shouldn't form the core of your troop choices, as you said.
I completely agree with what you and Defiler have both said for Reavers, they have A LOT of potential, but it will be hard to grasp unless you're a particularly good general and I'm pleased that someone has finally pointed out the quality of Scourges.

Great Review again. I also agree with what you said about Beast-masters, they are a good unit but lack mobility which be provided by Wyches, Incubi or others. Good work man.

If Scourges will be wiped out when within 18" of the enemy, why does the fact that they have shardcarbines matter at all?

I'm going to have to respectfully disagree with your take on the beastmasters simply because of the reading of power from pain is that the beasts would indeed benefit from pain tokens and having that 290 point unit with fnp takes them from being mediocre to almost amazing in my opinion.

It's a rules thing that does need to be FAQed by GW before a final verdict but in my gaming group we have discussed it and have arrived at the same conclusion that the beasts would indeed benefit from the rule.

Also it's what I think would really allow Dark Footdar to be a viable build with the amount of speed at which they can reach the enemy and the pain that can be delivered.

Re: Beastmasters:

"Want to take out special characters and beasts with rending? Why not just take squad of wyches to effectively do the same thing?"

Because Wyches don't do that. They harmlessly bounce attacks off characters.

Defiler wrote:

Brother-Thunder wrote:I disagree with the Reaver Jet-bike analysis. a unit of 6 with 2 cluster caltrops upgrades comes to a cost of 172 points, allowing one to drop 2d6 S6 and 3d4 S4 auto-hitting attacks. With a turbo-boosting range of 36 inches, they have the entire map as their range if deployed right.

Rolling it out many times, the squad will screw long-fangs and equivilants up pretty good just by moving over them.

Bear in mind, I intend on using 30 Bikes in my 2000 point list, but the specifics of their Turbo-Boost attack limit flight runs a bit.

How do you propose to actually land the attacks on back line troops? You need around 5 things to line up before the unit is used to maximum efficiency.

A) Start your turn out of range of charges/flamers, after utilizing your 36 inch boost to close the distance first turn
B) A straight (or mostly straight) line overlapping with their target unit
C) Achieve a minimum of at least 18 inches or you lose your unit next turn
D) Space necessary to place models at the end of their flight run (vehicles, units prevent this)
E) Safe space where they won't be charged by anything capable of killing them/shot by flamers

I mean, it's going to be extremely difficult to pull off the maneuver all DE players are drooling over, hitting a unit for 30 STR 4 attacks, and fading off into the background to rely on FNP and a 3+ cover save before starting the attack all over again.

I see a lot more 10 attacks landed, and then being hit by flamers/assault/stiff breeze/tank shocked/plasma cannon/battle cannon and not being points efficient. The straight line restriction in the rules text is a fairly major balancing factor. If they could attack any one unit within their entire move, ending up anywhere - they would be the strongest unit in the book.

I guess the challenge is figuring out effective flight routes eh? I see the Reaver Jetbike unit being one of the biggest "skill test" unit in the book, scaling effectiveness based solely on the user.

Indeed, pulling off the straight line thing is hard. but also remember that they can be pivoted and shot in any direction of your choosing. Allignment is not that hard to pull off. Size is also a problem, which is why I want to limit my squads to 6, so placing them is not too much of a to pull off.

You do bring in the aspect of how dufficult this can be to pull off at times, but a skilled player should be able to do it with at least some reliability.

Also consider this: if they just cherry bombed a unit of long fangs or lootas off the map, what kind of threat do they pose to the enemy as a whole? and if they are no longer dedicating fire to your raiders, then you win, yes? or they can, and just be bombed yet again by another run.

As a unit alone, they do seem lackluster. But, when combined with the rest of the army, they can do well in taking some of that flak fire from your raiders, especially if the enemy is lacking flamers of any kind.

Fetterkey wrote:If Scourges will be wiped out when within 18" of the enemy, why does the fact that they have shardcarbines matter at all?

Because a squad of 10 Scourges is hardy and survivable enough to venture to the 18" range. A squad of 5? Not really.

DarknessEternal wrote:Re: Beastmasters:

"Want to take out special characters and beasts with rending? Why not just take squad of wyches to effectively do the same thing?"

Because Wyches don't do that. They harmlessly bounce attacks off characters.

You don't say? I meant that Wyches take out Special characters and beasts, not necessarily with rending.

MrDrumMachine wrote:I'm going to have to respectfully disagree with your take on the beastmasters simply because of the reading of power from pain is that the beasts would indeed benefit from pain tokens and having that 290 point unit with fnp takes them from being mediocre to almost amazing in my opinion.

It's a rules thing that does need to be FAQed by GW before a final verdict but in my gaming group we have discussed it and have arrived at the same conclusion that the beasts would indeed benefit from the rule.

I'd like to point out that the Beast-Master entry specifically, in no uncertain terms describes that the beasts do NOT have power from pain.

I don't understand where this sort of wishful thinking is originating from?

Can you care to quote where the entry states they do have the ability? Because my book says "BEASTMASTER ONLY" in like, 4000 million point font.

If you read the power from pain rules, it uses the word "unit". Not model...UNIT

Also, having the rule power from pain means you can get pain tokens from destroying nonvehicle units. It has nothing to do with the effects of the tokens themselves. The rules even mention that there are other ways to get pain tokens besides the rule power from pain. (e.g. An independent character with 1 joining a unit.)

Having Pain tokens grants units USRs.

Having Power From Pain allows a unit to generate Pain tokens. So does attaching a Haemonculous, or standing near Chronos Parasite Engines.

Doesn't matter how something gets Pain tokens, they still get USRs from them.

I feel like the Power From Pain issue needs to be cleared up. Gwar's unofficial FAQ clears it up perfectly. To quote him:

"Units without the “Power from Pain” special rule which have been joined by an Independent Character with the “Power from Pain” special
rule are unable to generate Pain Tokens on their own from the destruction of enemy units unless all models in the unit somehow have the
“Power from Pain” special rule. This is because the “Power from Pain” special rule requires “a Dark Eldar unit with this rule” to do the
destroying, which the unit as a whole does not have. However, should they somehow get a Pain Token from another source “the entire unit”,
including models without the “Power from Pain” rule, will benefit from any effects granted by the Pain Tokens so long as at least one model
with the “Power from Pain” rule is still alive in the unit. If the Independent Character leaves the unit, the Pain Tokens must be split evenly, as
per the “Power from Pain” special rule, even though the unit does not have the “Power from Pain” special rule. If the Independent Character is
killed, the Pain Tokens are not lost, they simply remain with the unit."

Pretty clear, pretty simple.

Can the unit generate tokens from killing units? If every model in the unit has PfP, then yes. If not, then no.

Can the unit gain the special rules from PfP? If there is at least one model in the unit with PfP, then yes. If not, then no.

As stated above, tokens can be gained through means other than killing a unit. Urien Rakarth's Father of Pain rule, Chronos Parasite Engine, and attached Haemonculus all come to mind.

A unit of Beastmasters coming out of a webway portal with a pain token gained from Rakarth doesn't seem like too bad of a strategy at all, if you're running Rakarth.

Edit: I just realized Rakarth can only give tokens to Wracks or Grotesques, so nevermind that.

Even so, I feel like I should add this in as well...

5 Beastmasters with 2 Razorwing Flocks apiece put out 60 I5, WS4, Rending attacks on the charge. Oh, it also has 50 wounds worth of Razorwings. Granted, these are T3 with a 5+ save, and can be ID'd by strength 6... but still... 50 wounds. That's a unit that is never leaveing close combat if you can somehow make it fearless.

This:

post, before I edited it

was absurd.

Forgot an important footnote.
Now corrected.
Post edited.

That'll teach me to respond without my codex handy.

Eric

The codex explicitly states that when an IC joins a unit the tokens are pooled, and if the IC leaves they are divided up as evenly as possible.

Once the token owner is determined, the IC and unit he's joined get to enjoy the benefit of combined tokens but, when they split, each unit takes their own tokens with them.

In the case of a unit that can't get the PFP token being joined by an IC, they can never generate PHP tokens, so it would never be assigned to them. it would always go to the attached IC, presuming he was in the combat that generated the PFP token.

I think you need to read PfP and Sharing the Pain again, as virtually none of the above follows the rules.

Thanks Ketara, I absolutely love unit-by-unit breakdowns like this when I'm getting into a new army I don't understand well. Looking forward to the rest of the units!

Yep.
My bad.
I was simply going by the "randomly assign the tokens" from PFP. Hadn't taken "Sharing the pain" into account. My bad.

Post has been edited.

Eric

Hey Ketara. I've been enjoying reading your opinions on the Dark Eldar stuff. I'm just wondering, and I'm sorry if you've answered this and I've not seen, but when will you have the Heavy Support and Special Characters stuff up?

zonino wrote:Hey Ketara. I've been enjoying reading your opinions on the Dark Eldar stuff. I'm just wondering, and I'm sorry if you've answered this and I've not seen, but when will you have the Heavy Support and Special Characters stuff up?

I'm currently away from home, and will be for another few days. I'll do the Heavy Support and Special characters updates, and overall amendment when I get back.Sorry for the wait, family commitments.

I really like the write up - thanks for the effort.

I do disagree with your opinions on Beasts and Grotesquest, though. Either of these units used in conjuction of a WWP allows you to declare a 12-24 in area around the center of the table and say "This is my area."

I think both units will also be very effective in taking out mass light armor - the biggest threat to DE. Mass speeders, razorbacks, or chimeras will out shoot the DE and while dark lances can take them out, there will likely be more vehicles than lances. Grotesques with Str 6 on the charge (with an attached hammy) will do brutal things to rear armor ten. They should provide more penetrating hits - which you need since only 1/3 of the rolls on the chart will wreck/exlpode a vehicle.

I agree with the classification of Hellions as "usable competitively" instead of "Very competitive." There has been a lot of excitement over them in other threads, and I fail to see why. They are definitely better in their new incarnation, but they are still just decent, not amazing. I think most of the hype stems from the idea of the Baron making a unit of Hellions stealth.

As for the Fast Attack evaluation, I personally see Reavers as a better FA choice than scourges for multiple reasons. What I think is ignored most about Reavers is there ability to move 6" in the assault phase and their skilled rider ability. With 2 Blasters on them, they are one of the ultimate hit and fade units in the game. A 36" turbo boost up the sidelines to a comfortable hiding space behind area terrain or the like, next turn 12" over the terrain piece and blaster any vehicle in range, Move 6" back into the area terrain in the assault phase, rerolling failed dangerous terrain tests (or better yet, move behind LOS blocking terrain. Then, if the vehicle you popped was a transport, next turn you have a unit to turbo boost over. Or if they enemy starts moving towards your reavers, they can turboboost the hell out of there, probably inflicting some wounds while they do it. *Note, I'd probably only take Anti-tank weapons OR cluster caltrops. Choosing both will inflate costs and it confuses their role.

Scourges on the other hand are problematical for me. I can definitely see the appeal of taking a "sniper" squad of DL scourges. I'd much rather take them over a Trueborn Sniper squad of 3-5, for the simple fact of the scourges' mobility. But beyond that, they are only adding expensive and vulnerable models whose function could be done much better by warriors. I think this comes down to play style, but I still envision this to be a very very finesse unit in a finesse army that will get shredded quickly by twin-linked Assault cannon or Heavy bolter fire.

Also, I'm happy to see you didn't follow the trend of "Beastmasters = win because of wound allocation." I'd field them in a WWP focused army, but other than that, no thanks.


Looking forward to the HS slot analysis !!

I'm surprised the Beastmasters don't have a higher rating in points efficiency. I can understand how they don't immediately jump into a competitive list because most hardcore lists are running transport spam and wracks/warriors/trueborn.

However no unit benefits from the effects of FNP as well, because they have the most amount of wounds. In addition, the following unit has 34 wounds for 228 points and should be able to benefit from cover or a 4++ and then FNP. 7 Points for a wound that has a 4++/FNP is great, and even without a transport they are the most efficient way to absorb fire in the army book.

228 4 Beastmasters + 10 Kymera + 4 Razorfang

The downside I see is that you need to start a Haemy in the unit on turn one, then have him leave to jump into a raider where he can use his Liquifier. The beast unit can then make use of his FNP and advance up the board for a turn 2-3 assault, and is more vulnerable to powerful blast templates than most of the army in this part of the game.

The usage of the unit with a WWP hasn't been covered either. They have a huge range of a assault coming out of the portal, but can't use FNP. Witches are obvious WWP units, but with a higher range and more attacks I do think we should look at these beasts. Terminator TH/SS are a better unit for witches, but I think the beasts are the better tarpit against everything else.

Well, the Beastmaster combo can be decent vs. shooty units deployed in the backfield,
like Havocs or Devastators.

If it gets shot down before it reaches its target, then it would be fine, too.
Every shot less against the skimmers is a wasted shot.

couple of things I heavily disagree with Ketara.

First I think bikers and scourges aren't nearly as good as you say. Especially scourges with dark lances, giving them a heavy weapon is pretty much worthless IMO.

now for the two bigger things. I think you are completely underestimate the elite wych unit and grotesques. Try looking at them from other points of view

Elite wyches for example are a fantastic tarpit unit and in fact I don't think there is anything better in the army for holding up units like TH SS termies/deadnoughts/nobikers/MCs/smaller units of multi attack creatures. You are right they don't have much killing potential but they can hold up allot of units indefinitely.

Now on to grotesques. Would I ever charge them into a close combat unit? absolutely not I agree with on that one. But I see them as a great anti tank/small supporting unit. Put 4 of them with a haemi in a raider with aethersails and a shock prow. Turn 1 do a full tank shock charge on a vehicle from across the board and more often then not its going to be a S10 hit. You can at least shake a vehicle. Now your raider has a 4+ cover save adding extra protection to the grotesque unit. This forces your opponent to target as much fire power as possible on this unit because they are a huge threat. Now since grotesques are T5 they are very hard to instant death even when the raider is destroyed, further if they survive the next turn you can charge another vehicle or devestator squad. with 4 grotesuqes and a haemi you are doing 16 S6 attacks on the rear armor of a tank which means they glance the majority of enemy vehicles on a 4+ which is pretty good in my book. This who unit isn't that expensive either maybe 200+ points. Now if my opponent is forced to dedicated 800 points of fire power to even hope to kill them then its a worthwhile trade.

Anyways thats all hope this was constructive.

dumplingman wrote:couple of things I heavily disagree with Ketara.
Elite wyches for example are a fantastic tarpit unit and in fact I don't think there is anything better in the army for holding up units like TH SS termies/deadnoughts/nobikers/MCs/smaller units of multi attack creatures. You are right they don't have much killing potential but they can hold up allot of units indefinitely.

Now on to grotesques. Would I ever charge them into a close combat unit? absolutely not I agree with on that one. But I see them as a great anti tank/small supporting unit. Put 4 of them with a haemi in a raider with aethersails and a shock prow. Turn 1 do a full tank shock charge on a vehicle from across the board and more often then not its going to be a S10 hit. You can at least shake a vehicle. Now your raider has a 4+ cover save adding extra protection to the grotesque unit. This forces your opponent to target as much fire power as possible on this unit because they are a huge threat. Now since grotesques are T5 they are very hard to instant death even when the raider is destroyed, further if they survive the next turn you can charge another vehicle or devestator squad. with 4 grotesuqes and a haemi you are doing 16 S6 attacks on the rear armor of a tank which means they glance the majority of enemy vehicles on a 4+ which is pretty good in my book. This who unit isn't that expensive either maybe 200+ points. Now if my opponent is forced to dedicated 800 points of fire power to even hope to kill them then its a worthwhile trade.

Anyways thats all hope this was constructive.

Pretty good points on both elitist Wyches and Grotesques.
Bloodbrides should be able to hold up a deathstar unit for a while. With impalers they can reduce enemy attacks to a minimum.
The tactics on Grotesques mounted in a Raider with a Haemi seems pretty nasty at first sight. Even if the Raider is being destroyed after ramming, the passengers are hard to take down, and every shot against this unit is one shot less at the rest of the army.

I agree with most of what you've said Ketara, but I certainly disagree with your verdict on Grotesques.

I've been using them out of the WWP to monster effect with either Urien or a standard Haemmy. 10 strong is a point sink, but they are really tough to deal with.

IMO the Trueborn are the bomb - suicide bomb that is. In the 4 blaster config, they are the best for cheap AT. Greater still if you like Sliscus or Talosssssses or both.

What do you guys recommend for a Sliscus force??? I've tried Wyches and I cannot get them to work at all. Sathonyx and his Hellions work really well, but then I lose out on the Haemmies.

Haemmies are too good for their points IMO to not include.

And finally... What about a Sathonyx/Haemmie coven force??? On paper it looks like it could really bring the pain. Any comments???


Automatically Appended Next Post:
BTW...

You know they'll end up errataring the Haemmie/Hellion trick by saying the Haemmy can only join an infantry unit only.
Just to piss us off as ATM, the combo is very very effective.

highly doubt they are going to errata something like that. Characters have always been able to join units of different types even if their move speed was faster or slower so no worries.

I hope so.

I wasn't aware that we've been able to do that.

/facepalms self.

Puscifer wrote:I agree with most of what you've said Ketara, but I certainly disagree with your verdict on Grotesques.

I've been using them out of the WWP to monster effect with either Urien or a standard Haemmy. 10 strong is a point sink, but they are really tough to deal with.

Have you tried used minimum sized squad with liquifier and Aberration in a Raider? It has majority toughness 5 and 11 wounds in 4 different models (with haemonculus of course). It seems more flexible than a large squad because it doesn't hurt so much when you lose it to a Manticore or a Dread and is a lot faster.

Sorry for the long period between updates Gents, just been incredibly busy of late! Real life has taken over somewhat. I should have a new section up at some point soon hopefully though.

I'm not sure why people think that wychs don't have killing power. They can put out so many attacks that they force a lot of saves. Especially bloodbrides, when armed with razorflails can put out the hurt very well. The only thing they have issues with are units with FNP and a high save. I run bloodbrides with a Succ (9 brides and the succ in a raider) and 2 models with agonizers can really punish those units.

I think Bloodbrides and Succ is a cheap elite combat unit that has been largely overlooked.

Aetherse wrote:

Puscifer wrote:I agree with most of what you've said Ketara, but I certainly disagree with your verdict on Grotesques.

I've been using them out of the WWP to monster effect with either Urien or a standard Haemmy. 10 strong is a point sink, but they are really tough to deal with.

Have you tried used minimum sized squad with liquifier and Aberration in a Raider? It has majority toughness 5 and 11 wounds in 4 different models (with haemonculus of course). It seems more flexible than a large squad because it doesn't hurt so much when you lose it to a Manticore or a Dread and is a lot faster.

OMFG, I didn't see that. Double facepalm to self. Does it work??? Seems too. The lack of armour makes me think otherwise.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Dammit!!! I want a third HQ slot.

Tried it.

It doesn't have the wallop factor or survivability of the large unit.

Great at low points though.

Puscifer wrote:Tried it.

It doesn't have the wallop factor or survivability of the large unit.

Great at low points though.

If the enemy lacks Str 10 shooting and str 10 melee then the large squad should be able to stay around forever. It is a big if though because the Grotesques die really fast if enemy has those. I assume that you normally don't have to fight against Vindicators or Dreads?

350 points is a pretty steep price for a footslogging squad in my opinion, how did you manage to catch anyone with those and did you have cover?

Minimum Grotesques would be pretty effective against the standard Razorwolf lists. The only thing that can take grotesques down in list like that would be unholy amount of shooting (even though Grots don't get fnp against las-plas they still have 3 wounds) or TWCs, and charging Aberration with Flesh Gauntlet would still be gamble (odds are about 50/50) for anyone without EW.

Thanks for this thread a good headsup before playing a DE list as I get the feeling they are going to be a lot more common.

dumplingman wrote:Put 4 of them with a haemi in a raider with aethersails and a shock prow. Turn 1 do a full tank shock charge on a vehicle from across the board and more often then not its going to be a S10 hit.

Wouldn't you be worried about losing the raider and its entire contents to that S10 hit on your open topped vehicle, negating your opponent having to worry about it at all?

Aetherse wrote:

Puscifer wrote:Tried it.

It doesn't have the wallop factor or survivability of the large unit.

Great at low points though.

If the enemy lacks Str 10 shooting and str 10 melee then the large squad should be able to stay around forever. It is a big if though because the Grotesques die really fast if enemy has those. I assume that you normally don't have to fight against Vindicators or Dreads?

350 points is a pretty steep price for a footslogging squad in my opinion, how did you manage to catch anyone with those and did you have cover?

Minimum Grotesques would be pretty effective against the standard Razorwolf lists. The only thing that can take grotesques down in list like that would be unholy amount of shooting (even though Grots don't get fnp against las-plas they still have 3 wounds) or TWCs, and charging Aberration with Flesh Gauntlet would still be gamble (odds are about 50/50) for anyone without EW.

Nope, no Vindicators and not many Dreads in my meta.

I use my ten Grotesque out of a wwp with either Urien or another Haemmy. This is the only way I would field Grotesques ATM as the small squads in raiders are basically cannon fodder after the raider blows up.
I find the wwp to be an amazing delivery system. So far my opponents have forgotten that I have deployed it or that I still have a unit or two in reserve. The strength 7 on the charge from the Uber Grotesques has won me a fair few games as there is currently nothing that can stand up to a war of attrition against them.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
You know something... I've overlooked and forgotten about Incubi.

/Facepalms self again.

Arakasi wrote:

dumplingman wrote:Put 4 of them with a haemi in a raider with aethersails and a shock prow. Turn 1 do a full tank shock charge on a vehicle from across the board and more often then not its going to be a S10 hit.

Wouldn't you be worried about losing the raider and its entire contents to that S10 hit on your open topped vehicle, negating your opponent having to worry about it at all?

What I want to know is if we have that damn 5++ from a ram (I'm guessing no, but it'd be nice).

Why no?) ramming inflict some damage as normal shooting\melee will do.. question is can it make 4+ cover save for turbo-boosting.

Nah
Page 71
"A skimmer that is not immobilised and has moved flat
out in its last Movement phase counts as obscured
(cover save of 4+) when fired at."

erm. so ramming hits counts as Shooting or Melee hits ? I mean if second then isn't cover saves taken against "distance" attacks?

hmmm

The GW Faq that recently came out states that if a vehicle is destroyed/wrecked in the movement phase, the squad inside is killed.

I so like the idea of the 40 inch 1st turn charge. Oh well.

As unfluffy as it might seem, the Flickerfield could save you from being damaged by a Ram attempt...

Why would you ram anything with a raider? Use the DL it's armed with.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Unless you're talking about a raider BEING rammed, then I'd point to p. 71 of BRB "Ramming Skimmers" All skimmers get a built in 3+ save against ramming attempts.

Ramming something with moved flat-out Raider full of Grotesques can be pretty much funn) as stated somewhere on the forums)

penek wrote:Ramming something with moved flat-out Raider full of Grotesques can be pretty much funn) as stated somewhere on the forums)

As long as you don't explode the Raider.
That's only fun for your opponent.


Eric

Thats another story, and you have FF to get out of this safe.

I'm going to say that flat out the Beastmaster unit rating is way, way off. It'll depend on the style of list you run but 2-3 units of 3 Masters, 4 Flockwings, and 5 Kymaera are amazing CC support for an MSU style DE list. They are a 156pts each, can be massive wound sinks (28 wounds), and will kill the units that fall out of almost all transports pretty easily. I'd personally rate them as the most competitive Fast Attack choice in the book and they are, to me, a almost no brainer. Bear in mind that this is my opinion without them being able to benefit from pain tokens. I'm personally playing that they don't until the FAQ comes out as I don't want to get blindsided.

Can Wyches CC better? Not really but they can survive better against elite low attack, high power attacks. But that's not what the beasts are for. They are to pounce on units falling out of transports or to slam into horde units like orks and nids and make them cry. Units that would swallow wyches with only mild heart burn dissapear in 2 rounds of combat against a beast unit.

I just think your viewing them from the wrong perspective and missing what they are about.

Oh and bikes can be mildly competitive but only as a distraction unit and scourges just don't have the saying power to work in their range bubble. Though they might have a place in an all foot list as then they wouldn't be the only target for the st4-5 guns.

I have only had a chance to skim the book. Wracks seem like a smaller troops version of grotesques. Is a wrack/grotesque themed army viable?

I agree, Hulksmash. Beasts are an underappreciated unit, particularly stockpiling razorwings for mass rending attacks (like Fiends) and a few khymerae to increase survival. Out of a WWP, they can hit damn near anything and have a mass of wounds to absorb fire.

But then, there's a lot of "analysis" in this thread I don't agree with, but to each their own.

Indeed Skarboy. To be honest I only read the FA section because someone told me about beasts being rated low and I use them in all my lists Had to put in my 2 cents

Something I'd just like to point out; in most circumstances (that is to say, every one I've been able to think up and calculate), the razorflails are statistically superior on average to hydra gauntlets. This is against all toughnesses and with most combat drugs. The obvious exception, of course, is the combat drug allowing rerolls to wound; this makes the hydra gauntlets far superior. Don't trust me, look at the data:

2 plain special weapon wyches vs:
WS4 T4? 6 razorflail attacks avg. 2.5 wounds, 11 gauntlet attacks avg. 1.833
WS3 T3? razorflails 4 wounds, gauntlets 3.667
WS4 T6? razorflails 1.375, gauntlets 0.9167

Oddly enough, this superiority carries through with the +1S and +1 attack drugs. I haven't redone all these calculations again with 2 pain tokens (S5, etc.), but I'm probably safe to extrapolate a similar result.

End lesson? Hydra Gauntlets are, statistically speaking, not worth taking. Having said that, I feel like the shardnets are a better weapon, simply because they provide a utility wyches already excel at; making a mockery of elite units. Want to tie up that big scary-arse bloodthirster for a while? Chuck him some double shard-net wyches, and watch him struggle desperately to kill even a single wych a turn with his 3 attacks while you chip away at his armour with your volume of attacks (and agonizer if you brought one!).

That's not entirely true, I did the math spreadsheet style with all combat drugs. Then averaged them out in this thread

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/328226.page

Dracos wrote:Its important to note that I did the math for each Combat Drug result. The Average expected wounds was simply taking the average number of expected wounds from each drug result, adding them together, and dividing by 6 (as there are 6 possible results).

So here it is, the math says..... (based on average 3.5 bonus attacks for the hydra gauntlet...)

V MEQ (not assaulting)
Average expected wounds
Hydra 0.9653
Razor 0.9771

V MEQ (assaulting, or Brides non-assaulting)
Average expected wounds
Hydra 1.1736
Razor 1.4309

V GEQ (not assaulting)
Average expected wounds
Hydra 1.7639
Razor 1.4856

V GEQ (assaulting, or Brides non-assaulting)
Average expected wounds
Hydra 2.1435
Razor 2.1728

As you can see the math shows that they are mostly similar in terms of average. The Razorflail wins the math hammer challenge, as it is stronger is 3/4 categories.

Additional situations not accounted for here only compound the win for the Razorflail, such as higher T opponents. The Razorflail will win in the math there too.

One important piece of information that the math does not take into account is the variation in the expected number of wounds. The hydra gauntlet will have more variation. It will more often score both higher and lower wounds than the Razorflail.

For wychs, which is better will be determined by how you want to play them. If you intend them to hit softer targets where you don't mind drawing a round of combat before winning, then hydras are for you. If you want a more normalized output, then the Razorflail is your choice.

Bloodbrides are always better equiped with the Razorflail. There is no opponent against whom the Hydra gauntlet is better.

Automatically Appended Next Post:
Its probably important to note that some of the differences are very small. Around .1 difference would hardly be noticeable on the level they are being used. Therefore although the razorflail strictly speaking is slightly better against most opponents, a lot of the choice comes down to variation vs normalization. This will likely come down to the role you want for that specific wych unit.

right, of course. I'm simply saying that, on the whole, there's no reason not to take the razorflails. I'm not sure the variance particularly matters as the actual variance of the entire attack phase is so large anyway. I just don't see a handful of randomized attacks throwing the variance in a single assault phase wildly out of whack.

You're right about the actual numerical differences; the biggest difference was, what, less than a wound per turn against MEQ with 2 of them? Frankly, you'll probably be just fine picking whichever one you think looks better; I just felt obligated to inform people of the basic stats since it seems so many (myself included, originally) just auto-picked the hydra gauntlets and called it a case closed.

Not only that, but picking 2 offensive weapons for normal wychs seems inferior to taking 1 shardnet. With 1 shardnet, you can put it on the SGT or whatever most suitable target in the enemy unit to blunt a special CCW. I run wychs with 1 shardnet and 1 hydra gauntlet. Bloodbrides of course take 1 shardnet and 2 razorflails.

I'd just like to note to everyone who has posted in this this thread so far that I don't necessarily disagree with what you're saying, a number of my views have changed since my initial brainstorming of this codex. I just haven't even had the time to finish this tactica recently, let alone modify what's already been written. However, I should be able to bring it up to speed next week.

Hi,

I used 4 Grotesques with one Heamonculus ancient. This means they already have 2 pain-tokens.
I played against eldar and my Archon and Incubi where killed by Banshees.
Then the banshees attacked my Heamonculus and Grotesques, which gives them an Initiative of 10.
Before that he fired whit 2 troops of fire warriors? (normal troops) whit 3 shots each, so about 48 shots.
Because of the high toughness and 3 wounds, they survived (we didn't used the Feel no pain-save, because I was told that wasn't allowed because the AP-value already didn't allow me to save, now I know better :S). Nonetheless, after taking some wounds from the bashees (all with power weapons), which killed 2 grotesques, they killed the banshees.
So in my opinion they are great. I used a WWP to get them on the battleground. And I only took 4, so they were able to be picked up with a raider if they weren't able to come out of the WWP.
Just a little aspect from my side.
Greetings,

Ketara wrote:I'd just like to note to everyone who has posted in this this thread so far that I don't necessarily disagree with what you're saying, a number of my views have changed since my initial brainstorming of this codex. I just haven't even had the time to finish this tactica recently, let alone modify what's already been written. However, I should be able to bring it up to speed next week.

When you do, please don't remove your old thoughts.
Maybe color code your NEW thoughts in the same post or something.
Will be nice to compare the changes.


Eric

Great job, a fun read.

I agree, Hulksmash. Beasts are an underappreciated unit, particularly stockpiling razorwings for mass rending attacks (like Fiends) and a few khymerae to increase survival. Out of a WWP, they can hit damn near anything and have a mass of wounds to absorb fire.

But then, there's a lot of "analysis" in this thread I don't agree with, but to each their own.

I don't understand why everyone thinks they are a bad unit. 4 Beastmasters, 4 Razorwings and 2 of the Big Beasts is a big deal for under 200 points. If a Hamonculus joins and leaves to give this unit FNP it can be really tough to deal with. Essentially it is immune to small arms fire due to wound allocation sleaze. If the enemy shoots it with big guns, then it is ignoring the Raiders/Ravagers. Beasts aren't slow and when they get to CC they tear up.

Beasts have been entirely ignored for no reason.

Beasts have been entirely ignored for no reason.

The reason is that beasts don't benefit anything from pain tokens, only the beastmaster does. The other reason is the fact that there aren't really any proper models available and converting them only because one intends to argue a rule that might or might not prevail in the upcoming faq is a waste.

Therion wrote:

Beasts have been entirely ignored for no reason.

The reason is that beasts don't benefit anything from pain tokens, only the beastmaster does. The other reason is the fact that there aren't really any proper models available and converting them only because one intends to argue a rule that might or might not prevail in the upcoming faq is a waste.

Except that the codex specifically says that the entire unit benefits, not just the models with the PtP rule.

I believe his point is that the rule is a trifle confusing in such situations, requiring some interpretation. That type of rule is begging to be faq'd.

I currently am looking at playing without the rule. In the most negative light (i.e. not only does the unit not benefit from FnP but it also can't gain tokens even for the masters) and I still think those units are a steal. To be fair RAW says the unit gets it right now but I'm assuming i'm gonna get boned if I try it

I'd tumbled the 60 odd Rends (maxing RazorFlock) on last night's re-read through. Awesome, I thought, but then again, something must be wrong with it as I hadn't seen it in any lists.

Therion wrote:The reason is that beasts don't benefit anything from pain tokens, only the beastmaster does. The other reason is the fact that there aren't really any proper models available and converting them only because one intends to argue a rule that might or might not prevail in the upcoming faq is a waste.

... and that seems a pretty good reason why.

Still, proxying stuff until a model comes out is part of the hobby ... So, (scrolls through thread, doesn't find it), Hulksmash, how are you kitting the unit out? 4 BMs, 4 RazorF, 10 Khymeras?
---------------
*after some surfing and a link clicked* Is it still this? :

HQ
Haemonculus-
Elite
3 Trueborn-3xBlasters, Venom w/2 Splinter Cannons
3 Trueborn-3xBlasters, Venom w/2 Splinter Cannons
3 Trueborn-3xBlasters, Venom w/2 Splinter Cannons
Troop
10 Wyches- Succubus, Agoniser, Haywire Grenades, Raider
10 Wyches- Succubus, Agoniser, Haywire Grenades, Raider
9 Wracks- Acolyte, Agoniser, Liquifier, Raider
5 Wracks- Venom w/2 Splinter Cannons
Fast Attack
3 Beast Masters-156
4 Flockwings, 5 Kymera

3 Beast Masters-156
4 Flockwings, 5 Kymera

Heavy Support - x3 Ravager

Yeah, I found your blog. But the posting date is 11/8. Any tweaks so far?

Heavy Support section has been added. I'll get around to characters at some point, and then set up tweaking with all my new thoughts based on the discussion and points you gents have been making.

i think I had a more recent one Brothererekose. But generally my units look like this:

Option A: 3xBM's w/4 Flockwings and 5 Kymerae
Option B: 4xBM's w/6 Flockwings and 5 Kymerae

and lastly if I have a ton of points (ard boyz)
Option C: 5xBM's w/6 Flockwings and 10 Kymeae

No tweaks really, i'm just now purchasing all my stuff and making the conversions. Plus 12-13 hour days doesn't make for a lot of game time The unit is all about properly allocating shots. With a positive pain token ruling this unit will be just plain awesome. With a negative pain token ruling it's still a pretty sweet unit but it won't make your opponents call you a dirtbag