what do you think about it?

http://www.forgeworld.co.uk/Downloads/Product/PDF/a/achilles.pdf

I think it's overpowered. It basically sticks two fingers up at people that rely on lance/meltas to kill tanks (DEldar/Eldar) and forces you to shell out for the horrific cost of mass lascannons if you don't want it riding into your lines, shelling everyone to buggery and melting all your tanks.

Ordanance, Railguns, MCs and high strength CC attacks are the only things now apart from mass-AV that have a chance against it, but I doubt it'll be long beofre you get ordanance immune or MC immune raiders too.

It is awesome I want 5 of them. Now

Asherian Command wrote:It is awesome I want 5 of them. Now

are you actually gonna get 5?!
i'm getting at least 1 (maybe 2)

maybe 3. Not 5.

well, its transport capacity is only 6, so it can't take terminators.

doesnt this make it basically a mobile thunderfire with some melta, for 300pts?

oh and first post. Hey guys.

Almarine wrote:well, its transport capacity is only 6, so it can't take terminators.

doesnt this make it basically a mobile thunderfire with some melta, for 300pts?

oh and first post. Hey guys.

Welcome To Dakka Dakka!

And yes it cannot carry terminators and it is invulnerable to meltas and lances.

For those interested in knowing how tough it is to kill, here's the number of hits required to destroy one, assuming it does not pop smoke or benefit from cover. The numbers in brackets are for if you spend 20 points on a Storm Bolter and a Hunter-Killer Missile, and don't fire the HK.

Working:


Str D, AP 1 - 1.7 hits (1.8 hits)
Str 10, AP 1 - 6.5 hits (7.2 hits)
Str 10, AP 2+ - 11.1 hits (12.7 hits)
Str 9, AP 1 - 12 hits (13.5 hits)
Str 9, AP 2+ - 20.6 hits (24 hits)
Str 8, AP 1 - 72 hits (108 hits)
Str 8, AP 2+ - 144 hits (216 hits)

If you don't have ready access to Str 9+ weapons, killing it at range is next to impossible. And assuming the Subterranian Burst mode counts as a defensive weapon, the Achilles can move 12" and cause its pursuers to take Difficult Terrain tests and still fire one of its twin Multi-Meltas, which should also make it more or less invulnerable to melee.

That is pretty hard to kill.

Why didn't they make it haywire immune as well i wonder

Edit: they felt it needed an achilles' heel perhaps?

Yep. Thats why I want it!

Well it is a Land Raider for +50 points, it has 4 TL Multi-meltas instead of 2 TL las and it has a Thunderfire instead of a Heavy Bolter.

It only has transport capacity of 6, so no termies but you can include a combat squad and an HQ or a command squad and an HQ. You can also use it to reposition a squad in the late game, or just get one of your Combat Squads an extra 6" of movement at the beginning of the game. Terminators of course increase the cost of the tank anyway "all your eggs in one basket" as they say.

I think it is a cool tank for people who prefer melta over las. The Thunderfire seems a little weird tbh but it gives the tank range if it needs it.

Ironically its weakness is actually other assault units, as mentioned. Dreads, Chainfists, Monstrous Creatures, Thunder Hammers.

Nice tank for people who like Imperial Fists although I never thought of them as being "melta" before.

Tacobake wrote:Ironically its weakness is actually other assault units, as mentioned. Dreads, Chainfists, Monstrous Creatures, Thunder Hammers.

No, it's not. It can move 12" and still fire 2 of its 3 main weapons (meaning you need 6s to hit), and one of those weapons forces you to take difficult terrain tests, meaning you're going to have an even harder time getting close.

well, about the no-termie problem- TAGK in a 3-man squad allied!

shrike wrote:well, about the no-termie problem- TAGK in a 3-man squad allied!

Oh god, don't joke about that, that unit could take an army on by itself.

I think overpowered/underpowered is the wrong dichotomy to apply here.

In an all-out ARD BOYZ style environment, players knowing their stuff, playing every angle, relishing the challenge, pulling every trick? There, the Achilles isn't overpowered. Arguably, while tough, it's overpriced.

In a "casual" setting, drop-in game, play-your friends-style 40K. It's a serious killer of fun.

My main gripe with it is, that unless you specifically prepare for it, the best thing most armies can do is simply ignore/avoid it, concentrate on the rest and hope this doesn't cost you the game. You can simply not interact with it reasonably, not "play" against it, just shrug and do something different.

It's worse than overpowered IMO, it's just not fun.

On a slight tangent, I wish you had not put in a "don't care" option. It serves no purpose other then to siphon votes away from other choices for no reason at all - the people who "don't care" already have a vote - not reading or participating in this thread.

what's the deal with the IA books are they pseudo lega for tournaments or what??

Our local FLGS owner said he's not allowing it but I'd rather not run into this kinda silly stuff down the road

AlexHolker wrote:

Tacobake wrote:Ironically its weakness is actually other assault units, as mentioned. Dreads, Chainfists, Monstrous Creatures, Thunder Hammers.

No, it's not. It can move 12" and still fire 2 of its 3 main weapons (meaning you need 6s to hit), and one of those weapons forces you to take difficult terrain tests, meaning you're going to have an even harder time getting close.

The Land Raider Achilles can only fire a single weapon, if it moves 12". A normal vehicle that moves at Cruising Speed cannot fire any weapons, at all. With Power of the Machine Spirit, it may fire one.

personally as its more of an apocalype only kind of tank i think its not that good. shoot it with a destroyer weapon and bang goes 300+ points

I know the game mechanic in Apoc changes significantly. But Being immune to melta & Lance at AV 14, I thought we were done with monolith sillyness.

Also TFC are kind devastating on their own, plop it on a land raider & it's now pretty damn good. I'd say hike the points to 400.

Shas'O Dorian wrote:I know the game mechanic in Apoc changes significantly. But Being immune to melta & Lance at AV 14, I thought we were done with monolith sillyness.

Also TFC are kind devastating on their own, plop it on a land raider & it's now pretty damn good. I'd say hike the points to 400.

+1.

MinMax wrote:The Land Raider Achilles can only fire a single weapon, if it moves 12". A normal vehicle that moves at Cruising Speed cannot fire any weapons, at all. With Power of the Machine Spirit, it may fire one.

The Thunderfire Cannon can be fired as a S4 weapon. Doesn't this mean that Subterranean Blasts count as Defensive Weapons?

AlexHolker wrote:

MinMax wrote:The Land Raider Achilles can only fire a single weapon, if it moves 12". A normal vehicle that moves at Cruising Speed cannot fire any weapons, at all. With Power of the Machine Spirit, it may fire one.

The Thunderfire Cannon can be fired as a S4 weapon. Doesn't this mean that Subterranean Blasts count as Defensive Weapons?

Yes, it does.

However, when you move 12" (cruising speed), you don't get to fire anything per the BRB. Power of the Machine Spirit let's you shoot 1 thing.

However, you can move 6", fire the Multimelta sponson twice (twin-linked) , fire the thunderfire at strength 4, then fire the other multimelta sponson with PotMS.

Looks to me like an AV 14 Thunderfire cannon that can move and shoot. I would take it just for that.

They can be killed, you just need to find their Land Raider Achillies heel.

In a casual game, i think it's quite overpowered, specifically because of the ferromantic invulnerablity. For some armies at least (Eldar, DEldar) Melta and Lances are their only reliable anti tank, and this completely screws it over.

However in a tournament setting, where you should be ready for everything, it's only slightly overpowered, maybe a small price hike.

Well according to the fluff a land raider is supposed to be next to unkillable. Now we have a tank that lives up to the name. I'm for the anti-lance anti-melta rule. subtracting 1 from damage rolls seems like a bit much but I like the way they're thinking. For the biggest baddest tank space marines have, and as expensive as they are, land raiders ought to be tough to kill. In the current meta they're harder than normal to kill but not really a challenge to an opponent who builds with land raiders in mind. That being said its offensive capabilities seem underwhelming to me. Armor 14 and all those special rules are great defensively but the best defense is still to kill them before they kill you, and there are definitely killier things you can do with your 300 points than buy a thunderfire cannon and two twin linked melta guns. I like that the multi meltas short range dovetail with the land raider's assault vehicle rule.

I think Forge World has the right idea here but the price needs to come down 50 points before I'd call it a great tank. As it stands I'd say its ok, maybe even good, but not great or overpowered. AF

I selected "dont care"

Why?

My meta is DEVOID of Apoc matches. The most recent was the Nid invasion of last year, so why should ANYONE here be scared of this questionable cube of power?

Why would anyone buy this kit? its a 95$ land raider .... 2 seconds and plasticard = the track skirts and a thunderfire cannon? ive seen thousands of rotary barreled cannons that size on various 5-10$ toys ....

As much as i love this thing atm with its thunderfire cannon it needs to cost more points.

Costing more points is not the solution - the problem is that an enemy that is completely immune to everything you can throw at it is not fun, no matter how expensive it is.

I've dropped an email to Forgeworld with my suggested fix: make the -1 modifier on damage tables only apply to penetrating hits. This way you don't have three different rules all to the effect of "Str 8 weapons and only Str 8 weapons are completely useless".

AbaddonFidelis wrote:Well according to the fluff a land raider is supposed to be next to unkillable. Now we have a tank that lives up to the name. I'm for the anti-lance anti-melta rule. subtracting 1 from damage rolls seems like a bit much but I like the way they're thinking. For the biggest baddest tank space marines have, and as expensive as they are, land raiders ought to be tough to kill. In the current meta they're harder than normal to kill but not really a challenge to an opponent who builds with land raiders in mind. That being said its offensive capabilities seem underwhelming to me. Armor 14 and all those special rules are great defensively but the best defense is still to kill them before they kill you, and there are definitely killier things you can do with your 300 points than buy a thunderfire cannon and two twin linked melta guns. I like that the multi meltas short range dovetail with the land raider's assault vehicle rule.

I think Forge World has the right idea here but the price needs to come down 50 points before I'd call it a great tank. As it stands I'd say its ok, maybe even good, but not great or overpowered. AF

Land Raiders already *are* hard to kill, the hardest amongst the Imperium's vast arsenal and of anything *but* Necron Monoliths. What on earth justifies it needing to be harder than that?

i think it's a fair priced model.

i would get one if i could afford it


i wish it had Lascannons instead of the MMs. that would fit in better with the Fists and wouldn't clash with the TFC.

It's a tougher Land Raider with mis-matched guns (both from a role, power and range perspective), a pathetic troop capacity and no assault ramp. And it costs three-hundred points.

I'm not going to go and say that it's "underpowered", but it is horribly confused for such a big price tag. Toughness isn't the be all and end all of pricing.

It's a monetarily expensive plastic-and-resin shoe box tank released coincidentally with the Dark Eldar release that happens to be harder than usual to kill and under priced in points for its weapons and rules.

Sorry, it's just another entry in the "And that's why you don't get to use Forge World rules" list.

I agree with you on the confused part, to an extent.

It should only be able to be fielded in Cities of Death games, in my opinion. It has the, for lack of a better word, "feel" of the German "Stugs" or the Sturmtigers. A linebreaking vehicle that, in a pinch, can double as a self-propelled gun.

I think it's a sweet model looks plenty dakka. Points cost seems about right. seems perfect for a 5 man assault/vanguard with a SC, Chap, or Libby. You're gonna have a damn hard time wrecking their ride
Overpowered? nah, you just have to know how to bust it's chops. which is not that hard if you know what you're doing
Seems like another FW tank to me. crazy good, but you're never gonna see it in a game cuz all your mates are cheap.
You'll never get to use it a tournament either so what's the fuss?

I put overpowered. I'm sorry, but a tank with TL multimeltas that is basically invulnerable and can move 12" and shoot the MM would crush many an opponent. There are too few answers to this unit, and its TL MM + invulnerability means it is almost guaranteed to take out a vehicle per turn. The sheer board control offered by this thing is leaps beyond a normal LR.

Something that might fix it is to get rid of the -1 to damage table rolls, and just make it ignore the bonus for AP1 instead.

Dracos wrote:Something that might fix it is to get rid of the -1 to damage table rolls, and just make it ignore the bonus for AP1 instead.

The weapons that need the most help are the ones that are most reliant on glances: the ones that have already been nerfed by the other two components of the Ferromantic Invulnerability rule. Buffing lascannons and leaving meltas as-is makes no sense.

Unless it is a physical codex entry, I will refuse to play it, as I have denied plenty of FW units in the past that just have broke rules.

Make the Marine army that is fielding this phase out at 25% infantry models and then we'll talk.

More marine junk from GW... There are Xenos armies in this game for what, again?

BuFFo wrote:Unless it is a physical codex entry, I will refuse to play it, as I have denied plenty of FW units in the past that just have broke rules.

While I can understand the feeling against this particular unit, this attitude just doesn't seem very fun or constructive, especially given how often GW simply nabs FW units, makes them way better, and shoves them in codex's (look at the Hydra, Pirhana, Valkyrie, Medusa, Sky Ray, Nightspinner, etc), and how most FW units are rather mediocre. Aside from a couple more recent SM units, you'll almost always find codex stuff to be as good or better than anything FW provides.

In a vacuum, yes, it's overpowered, but HMBC's explained well enough why it won't actually do well when you consider an entire army.

It's definetly a powerhouse. But it tries to do so much well that short of staying alive, it doesn't really do very much at all.

A regular LR or LRC would be way more bang for your buck. Sure, it's easier to pop, but you actually get some utility with it.

Fafnir wrote:
It's definetly a powerhouse. But it tries to do so much well that short of staying alive, it doesn't really do very much at all.

Often, staying alive is more valuable than anything else. If it's got a scoring unit in it, you can force most opponents to at best play for a draw in Capture and Control, put real stress on in Seize Ground, and probably deny an opponent up to 3 KP's in Annihilation (achilles, 5man squad, attached IC). That and its firepower isn't exactly meek.

Kanluwen wrote:I agree with you on the confused part, to an extent.

Well, from a designers' point of view, I think what you call "confused" is an excellent design choice. The classic Godhammer is IMO a well designed vehicle, precisely because it can fill several, potentially contradicting roles and you'll need to make some tough decisions to make it worthwhile. The LRC is IMO a rather badly designed vehicle, precisely because its such a no-brainer to use.

Thunderfire-cannon, lots of Melta's, no Assault Ramp without that stupid Ferro-rule at a regular LR-price tag. That combination would IMO make an excellent Landraider in the Godhammer tradition. It would be something I'd love to tinker and play with to make it work. But that idiotic Invulnerability rule kills it fo rme. Not because its over/underpowered, but because it takes the brains out of the game. There's no need to make decisions, no consequence for doing something stupid. It's just a brick of heavily skewed statistics that makes game-choices by either player irrelevant.

Would be fluffy in a salamanders list (the immune to melta) which they got before IIRC. However unless it transports 6 terminators it's a bit naff. Additionally if you put a siege sheild on it how are you going to exit from the front - that is assuming you even can in the first instance?

I chose 'don't care', because hey, I don't.

solkan wrote:Sorry, it's just another entry in the "And that's why you don't get to use Forge World rules" list.

To me, this is the real problem - it's going to be so un-fun to play against, I'm going to have a hard time playing my less-broken Forge World stuff.

I play Eldar, and if my opponent fields one of these then I am screwed.

I know people are saying that one could just ignore it and go for other stuff, but a tank that is seriously immune to an entire army is just not fair.

The only things I can see taking it down are massed Lascannons or xeno army equiv, strong ordanance (for the 2D6, pick the highest) or MCs. Dreadnoughts and CC walkers won't be able to get near it without being multi-melta'd, opposing transports carrying assault terminators will likewise be multi-melta'd or taken out early by the rest of your army, and the Tremor shot from the TFC will deny them the ability to even footslog at it.

MCs are usually tough enough or gifted invulnerable saves, winged ones are best (I can see a winged Tzeentch Daemon prince being okay here, 4+ invul with Wind of Chaos, glancing on 4+s with the template to try and wear it down a bit before the charge, and Warptime for maximum hits), but even they might suffer a bit.

Tyranids might be able to crack it open (MC spam), as might Eldar with multiple Wraithlords, but other armies will suffer, and suffer hard, especially if this thing just flanks your army and starts mulit-meltaing your Tanks left and right whilst being the best part of immune to return fire.

Definitely OP for its price. Defensively OP, not offensively-- offensively it's fine.

Melissia wrote:Definitely OP for its price. Defensively OP, not offensively-- offensively it's fine.

well a regular LR is 250, so the MM are fair, replacing the lascannons, and a TFC (minus the teachmarine) is 50. so 300pts is fair- just get rid of the armour stuff. If you must, make it ignore melta (like a TH or castus) or something. It's just too hard.

The ignore melta is exactly why it's such a problem.

so what do you recommend? Matching with the fluff, it needs to be harder than a regular LR, but not as hard as the current rules.

The -1 to damage rolls is plenty by itself. That reduces a penetrating hit's chance to destroy it from 1/3rd to 1/6th. It also removes an AP1 glance's chance to destroy it entirely.

Melissia wrote:The -1 to damage rolls is plenty by itself. That reduces a penetrating hit's chance to destroy it from 1/3rd to 1/6th. It also removes an AP1 glance's chance to destroy it entirely.

yeah, and we've decided that's too good. Alternatives?

No, I think that alone-- IE, no immunity to lance or melta-- is just fine.

Melissia wrote:No, I think that alone-- IE, no immunity to lance or melta-- is just fine.

ok- so same as normal, but no immunity to lance/melta? seems fair.

Vaktathi wrote:

BuFFo wrote:Unless it is a physical codex entry, I will refuse to play it, as I have denied plenty of FW units in the past that just have broke rules.

While I can understand the feeling against this particular unit, this attitude just doesn't seem very fun or constructive, especially given how often GW simply nabs FW units, makes them way better, and shoves them in codex's (look at the Hydra, Pirhana, Valkyrie, Medusa, Sky Ray, Nightspinner, etc), and how most FW units are rather mediocre. Aside from a couple more recent SM units, you'll almost always find codex stuff to be as good or better than anything FW provides.

GW shoves units into codices with the thought of army balance.

FW just makes units, damn be balance.

Suffice it to say, most of the FW stuff is fine, maybe even over priced, but that doesn't excuse stuff like this.

When I face a FW unit I deem will be fun to play against, I will, but not stuff like this, at all.

BuFFo wrote:
GW shoves units into codices with the thought of army balance.

FW just makes units, damn be balance.

I have a hard time believing either of those, GW has been guilty far more often of putting broken stuff in armies than FW has.

Suffice it to say, most of the FW stuff is fine, maybe even over priced, but that doesn't excuse stuff like this.

I don't disagree there.

+1.
(but GW do make sure they don't put too badly broken units in there)

Mind you, buffo has an extremely hardline stance agaisnt the GW Errata/FAQs, and against any house rules and forgeworld stuff. I doubt I'd want to play against him

Well, give that my Orks don't get anything with Melta or Lance, it's rather meh for me. It does hurt somewhat against my Witch Hunters, but then again, I'm already dealing with things like 50 point Rhinos and an older codex, so it's not likely to be a deal breaker in a game.

In modeling terms though, I really like the look of it. Eventually, I might try to swing one into my Witch Hunters army. I'm not sure how yet, but I've got time to figure it out. Lots of painting to do before I get to that point.

MrGiggles wrote:Well, give that my Orks don't get anything with Melta or Lance, it's rather meh for me. It does hurt somewhat against my Witch Hunters, but then again, I'm already dealing with things like 50 point Rhinos and an older codex, so it's not likely to be a deal breaker in a game.

In modeling terms though, I really like the look of it. Eventually, I might try to swing one into my Witch Hunters army. I'm not sure how yet, but I've got time to figure it out. Lots of painting to do before I get to that point.

use it as allied, with SoB LR doors.

MrGiggles wrote:Well, give that my Orks don't get anything with Melta or Lance, it's rather meh for me.

Actually it still hurts you. Those S10 power klaws go from 1/3rd chance to 1/6th IF they penetrate (which is what, 1/3rd of the time?).

I think its right because you lose most of the transport capacity, assault vehicle and gain TL Multi Melta's which are similarly priced to Lascannons and so only gain the TFC over a TL heavy bolter which compared to the special rules, capacity etc seems right.

No, that's not all you gain.

They gain the ability to ignore lance and melta, and ontop of that a further -1 to damage rolls if anything actually does manage to glance/penetrate.

That alone would be worth quite a damn bit more than 50 points and the transport slots.

Melissia wrote:

MrGiggles wrote:Well, give that my Orks don't get anything with Melta or Lance, it's rather meh for me.

Actually it still hurts you. Those S10 power klaws go from 1/3rd chance to 1/6th IF they penetrate (which is what, 1/3rd of the time?).

so thats...1/18th? ouch. And that's IF you hit, so if they move 6" (which they probably will), that's a 1/32nd chance of destroying it. If they move 12"...whoah. that's 1/68th. that would take 11 ghazghkulls to kill. IF they charge. worst-case scenario- if they're stuck in combat, so no charge bonus...14 ghazghkulls.
that mathammer really hurts.
[EDIT]: That's 3150pts spent on killing a 300-point LR that moved 12".

Melissia wrote:

MrGiggles wrote:Well, give that my Orks don't get anything with Melta or Lance, it's rather meh for me.

Actually it still hurts you. Those S10 power klaws go from 1/3rd chance to 1/6th IF they penetrate (which is what, 1/3rd of the time?).

Actually, it doesn't hurt me as much as you'd think. My Warbosses seem to have a 0/6 chance of actually hitting Land Raiders to begin with.

Good point though Melissa.

Melissia wrote:

MrGiggles wrote:Well, give that my Orks don't get anything with Melta or Lance, it's rather meh for me.

Actually it still hurts you. Those S10 power klaws go from 1/3rd chance to 1/6th IF they penetrate (which is what, 1/3rd of the time?).

yes, but orks already had a hard time with LRs. they just ignore it or hit it with a Deffrolla(which will kill it eventually)

The deffrolla is also reduced in effectiveness.

yes, but it's still a pretty reliable way to get Str10 hits on a target(auto hits too)

Grey Templar wrote:yes, but it's still a pretty reliable way to get Str10 hits on a target(auto hits too)

it's still a 1/18 chance (1/3 to pen, 1/6 to destroy)

shrike wrote:

Grey Templar wrote:yes, but it's still a pretty reliable way to get Str10 hits on a target(auto hits too)

it's still a 1/18 chance (1/3 to pen, 1/6 to destroy)

Da Orkses dunt care bout yr stinking probabilites

we fink itll wurk and so it is gunna wurk

My Salamanders want one!

If ever there was vehicle you need to keep out of 12" range its this one...TL MM so a reroll, double if half range? Machine Spirit so glancing etc will not necessarily stop it shooting at you plus it can shoot at 2 different targets per turn. Nevermind the Thunderfire! This is one of those stupid one trick ponies that looks amazing on paper but then someone comes up with a damn near foolproof method to take it out and everyone then gravitates to the next FW LR release as the Achilles shows its Heel....

Its like the Terminus Ultra, its not for regular gaming per see as for those monster Apocalypse Games that come along once every 6months..

This is kind of like the Dark Angels' Land Raider Ares. for 300 points, you get a Land Raider with a demolisher cannon and two twin-linked heavy flamers and no transport capability. It is the heaviest hitting tank allowed to a Space Marine chapter since they took Leman Russes away from the Space Wolves.

TFG:" but why dump 300 points into it?"

because its AV 14 and dropping pie plates... it's almost a two-for-one deal. screw no transport abilities, at least for Dark Angels... Deathwing Redemption Force: no deep strike scatter...

rules aside, the model is fantastic!

well because its so rare and tough I would say make it 0-1 heavy support. sure it costs a ton but facing 3 of them doesn't seem to fit fluff and that would be annoying facing 2+ of these tanks. thats a lot of fire power for 2 of them. they can kill a squad and a tank a turn each lol.

I think its balanced for its points though.

GamzaTheChaos wrote:
I think its balanced for its points though.

That's the whole dilemma. "Balance" and "Pricing" aint the same thing as this model clearly shows (some commonly seen "overpowered" special characters have similar problems).

Balance is a question of how easy or not easy it is to achieve the conditions necessary to "win" a game of 40K with respect to what else is (potentially) in your list and what (potentially) is in your opponents list. Simply adding or substracting point costs doesn't much change that composition. Alot of it has to do with availability (as can be evidenced by limits to special weapon loadouts, the "movements of units around in the FoC (or the existance of a FoC in the first place), etc.., or your own suggestion of making it 0-1).

There's "overpriced". There is "unbalanced". There is "unkillable". The Achillies is NOT unkillable. The Achilles is NOT overpriced. The Achilles is, however, clearly unbalanced. They are different things.

This behemoth would be utterly amazing if I could use it in my CSM army Toting around three terminators is all I need!

Completely overpowered. The only army that can effectively kill this thing is imperial guard (possibly tau) due to the massive amount of STR10 stuff they can muster.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Element206 wrote:rules aside, the model is fantastic!

I agree ^.^ It looks really good.

Agreed, after reading the following thread http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/328465.page I am worried! Taking this to an extreme (but someone will do it!) conclusion. Someone will buy Lysander and then one of these bad boys and WTF is anyone going to do about it! These overpowered units are getting a bit tiresome, unless you know your going up against these things your generic balanced army will not be equipped and willl probably get slammed.

mwnciboo wrote:Agreed, after reading the following thread http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/328465.page I am worried! Taking this to an extreme (but someone will do it!) conclusion. Someone will buy Lysander and then one of these bad boys and WTF is anyone going to do about it! These overpowered units are getting a bit tiresome, unless you know your going up against these things your generic balanced army will not be equipped and willl probably get slammed.

oh- I have lysander (and use him often) and I am getting the achilles... how about this for my support/distraction unit- lysander, chaplain (HF, TA), termie libby (SS, avenger, null zone) in the achilles. BTW if you're wandering if that's the support unit, what the feths the lead unit?!, it's this:
8 captains
shrike
korvydae
chapter master
libby
2 chaplains
master of the forge
vanguard veterans
chief librarian (http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/327781.page).
FYI, this is not meant to be competitive, or even decent- It is meant to be fun to play with.

Look the only thing that will stop that list is the Emperor himself descending from the Throne and screaming "Stop, its all too much...." him or his secret son C.N.

C.N? who's that?
or a well-placed vortex missile

chuck norris.....?

Devastator wrote:chuck norris.....?

of course! how could i forget?! *flogging self* "forgive me, C.N!"

Actually, this is a tough one to vote on.

One the one hand, it's ludicrously overpowered as far as durability is concerned. Other than a lucky shot with a wraithcannon or wychblade, there is literally no way for an eldar army to destroy it, and that's assuming that the marine player even lets a wraithcannon or wychblade close enough.

Likewise, EVERY army has basically only one or two things that stand ANY chance of hurting it. Basically, it took the most awful, broken rule of the monolith and brought it back from the 3rd ed grave.

On the other hand, seriously, 300 points for a pair of multimeltas and a worthless TFC with no transport capability? Worst. land raider. ever.

So it is little more than an invincible, impotent showpiece. I'm not sure whether to never let an opponent field it, or to encourage him to always take as many as possible...

Don't call other posters names. -The Mgmt.

I just faced 2 proxies of these in a 2000 point game Saturday.
They are ridiculously undercosted.
Since the datasheet does not say it's still an assault vehicle, we didn't use it as one (though, with the launchers still on it, I don't see why they won't change it to add that in).

Even with that "limitation," the best we were able to do was immobilize one and shake the other semi-regularly.

Think about it... a glance is -2, this think gives a -1... Roll a 6 on a glance and a weapon's gone. Anything else just equals no shoot.

Even on a penetrating hit, you'll NEVER explode it.

It's ridiculous, unnecessary, and highly undercosted.

Also, I want 3 for my SM army. : )


Eric

What an Assault Vehicle for 3 termies? or 6 regular SM? you've got to be taking the piss....As you say the only thing to do is hammer this vehicle so often that its glanced into ineffectiveness and it becomes a 300pt Anti-tank weapon practice range, its never going to "high order".

Drop the OT argument.-The Mgmt.

@mwnciboo its not assaut vehingle

I know i was responding to Magical moments.

Discourteous argument is discourteous. Knock it off and be nice, guys. -The Mgmt.

Whoa, easy guys lets stay on thread here. (I wish i had never mentioned the secret son of the emperor).

I suppose the real achilles' heel is that you don't have to agree to play against it. My army is quite melta reliant, I would have to decline, or at least renegotiate the rules or points value.

How does this tank fit with BA by the way? Can BA take it? And if so can they deep strike it with 5 PW Death Company and a libby inside?

SmackCakes wrote:I suppose the real achilles' heel is that you don't have to agree to play against it. My army is quite melta reliant, I would have to decline, or at least renegotiate the rules or points value.

How does this tank fit with BA by the way? Can BA take it? And if so can they deep strike it with 5 PW Death Company and a libby inside?

BA can't have it- I think the dropping has something to do with it.

This vehicle is incredibly potent, and definitely needs to cost extra points. AV14 all around that ignores meltas, lances, and inflicts a -1 penalty to all damage rolls is practically indestructible. Combine that with some great weapons, and just enough transport capacity for a scoring unit, and you have a vehicle that can just roll into the enemy, tank shocking enemies off objectives, blasting apart infantry, or nuking up to two vehicles a turn with twin-linked multimeltas, and there is very little you can do about it.

At least they had the presence of mind to keep Blood Angels from having it, otherwise it would be the perfect ride for a Sanguinary Priest and a min-sized unit.

It's the -1 to damage rolls that really puts it over the top. Without that, I'd say it's worth 300-325. With it, it should be like 400.

okay- so the TFC is ok (50pts without techmarine, so 250+50 = 300, and the lance/melta is a tad OP, but still not that OP, but then decrease chances of destroying (after hitting and penning) from a 1/3 to a 1/6... ouch. way OP IMHO.

Somebody post a reasonable eldar army list that has a chance to take this thing out without otherwise totally sucking and I will pay you.




In praise probably but still I don't think it can be done.

how much?

mwnciboo wrote:I know i was responding to Magical moments.

Magical moments?
You sure you aren't an American? You know, with "close enough" being good enough and all. : )

mwnciboo wrote:What an Assault Vehicle for 3 termies? or 6 regular SM? you've got to be taking the piss....As you say the only thing to do is hammer this vehicle so often that its glanced into ineffectiveness and it becomes a 300pt Anti-tank weapon practice range, its never going to "high order".

SM can't buy 3 man Termie squads. So, unless you've got a unit of 3 IC's in Terminator Armor (ouch!), or remnants of a squad, they aren't getting one of these for a transport. These has Sternguard loaded in them.

Also, what you're saying about glancing them into ineffectiveness is all well and good, but you don't have any practical knowledge of the situation (no offense intended).
We were playing 2000 points. We had 6 Obliterators and a Land raider full of las cannons.
That doesn't take into account the melta weapons or power fists that whiffed into oblivion.

We shot the HECK out of these things. We just laid into them with everything we could get. The numbers involved just aren't there, man.
Figure:
2 Lascannon shots per turn (oblits): 4 hits.
2 TL Las cannons from the Land Raider: 1.5 hits (let's call it 2).
So, rolling to get through the armor with 6 hits means that 4 of them are going to do nothing, on average. One is going to glance & one is going to pen.
Random cover saves helps with these 2 that get through.
Assuming no cover, though, a 6 on the glamce chart becomes a 3. Weapon destroyed. Anything else is simply a "no shoot." Through the magic of PotMS, though, they still get one shot per turn.
On a Pen, anything less than a 4 is laughable, and even a 4 is only weapon destroyed.

Add in the fact that it's immune to the Melta and lance abilities, and it just makes it that much worse.

Barring certain grenades, you can virtually guarantee that these things would function with near impunity against Dark Eldar.

Seriously... build a SM army and proxy a pair or trio of these, then have one of your buddies build something from the codex. See what happens.

Eric

I will pay you 15$. And a double rainbow.

I've got no regular eldar buddies anymore have Wraithguard and Wraithlords become obsolete?

Jack

Pretty much. Wraithguard are just too overcosted for what they bring to the table, and there's no chance of a wraithlord ever getting into combat with that thing.

This poll is so biased. There isn't even an option that says "I like it". WTF dude?

GalacticDefender wrote:This poll is so biased. There isn't even an option that says "I like it". WTF dude?

That's because this is not a poll about whether you like it. This is a poll about whether it is balanced.

Ouze wrote:On a slight tangent, I wish you had not put in a "don't care" option. It serves no purpose other then to siphon votes away from other choices for no reason at all - the people who "don't care" already have a vote - not reading or participating in this thread.

No its good, I came to this thread because I have never heard of this tank.. and yet I still don't care. Although Don't care should be called cupcakes/pineapple.

My Gunline Army has alot of Lascannons and Twin linked Lascannons so I can usually put a fair bit of glancing hurt on AR13 and AR14 vehicles. This is because most of my opponents play mech heavy guard and I cannot always get in nice and close with Melta's in the opening turns of the game. So I tend to put down some fire with my Lascannons RB's Preds and Dreds and follow it with Melta bomb scouts, MM Landspeeders or Combi-melta sternguard. This Vehicle would literally have every Lascannon I could muster firing at it and i know the only way to stop it would be to glance it to the max, Meanwhile the rest of the Enemy Vehicles assault my lines, Lose-Lose Flow diaqram... My mate paul, (A SW player) with a 6 x LC Longfang unit would love to have a crack at this unit over a 4 turn game.

A quick question IIRC Scout Snipers can Glance on a 6? Cheap unit buy 3 of them, throw in Sgt Telion at 50pts. Use his skill to aim one of your snipers, I am sure you can do this. Plus with 14 other snipers all firing you will get saturation of the Tank. Rending is such a great rule for Scout Snipers!

AlexHolker wrote:

GalacticDefender wrote:This poll is so biased. There isn't even an option that says "I like it". WTF dude?

That's because this is not a poll about whether you like it. This is a poll about whether it is balanced.

There is not really even an option to say it is balanced though...

@mwnciboo
It's a lot easier in theiry than in practice. That's all I'm saying.

Eric

mwnciboo wrote:A quick question IIRC Scout Snipers can Glance on a 6?

Not against AV14.

GalacticDefender wrote:There is not really even an option to say it is balanced though...

The one that says "Meh. Fair." So quit complaining.

If AP1 gets a +1 and the Achilles has a -1 on Damage table does that even out 0 modification on the Damage table?

Dogface 76 wrote:If AP1 gets a +1 and the Achilles has a -1 on Damage table does that even out 0 modification on the Damage table?

Yes.

ZOMG That's awesome! I still think I would rather have the Land Raider Ares, though. Demolisher cannon on a LR FTW!!

It says at the bottom "this is a Heavy Support choice in..." Does that mean I could use this in a normal game?

QuestionableStrategy wrote:It says at the bottom "this is a Heavy Support choice in..." Does that mean I could use this in a normal game?

Yes. But I wouldn't, at least until we see the modified version of the rules that will be in the actual book. As-is, it's going to be rather unfun to play against.

it counts as a heavy support choice if your group allows FW rules and models.

Grey Templar wrote:it counts as a heavy support choice if your group allows FW rules and models.

mine does! (if they don't make an exception...) An evil plan is forming...heh heh heh...
(lysander, chief libby (which i spam at every opportunity) http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/327781.page, TAGK squad of 3) heh heh heh...

Well I for one would get two The models are awesome for me, the rules might get some revisions though. But this would be awesome for my SW army.

mindfield wrote:the rules might get some revisions though.

The rules are getting some revisions.

i really believe your going to see them in the next ARD BOYZ

Not likely. Ard Boys doesn't allow Forgeworld.

Eric

I'd love to build an army around 3 of these:

Bjorn - 270

Dreadnought: 2 TL-Autocannons - 125
Dreadnought: 2 TL-Autocannons - 125
Dreadnought: 2 TL-Autocannons - 125

Grey Hunters x6: Flamer - 90
Grey Hunters x5: Flamer - 75
Grey Hunters x5: Flamer - 75

Land Speeder Typhoon - 90
Land Speeder Typhoon - 90

Land Raider Achilles: Siege Shield - 310
Land Raider Achilles: Siege Shield - 310
Land Raider Achilles: Siege Shield - 310

1995/2000

This looks like bucket loads of fun.

I wish the ruleset was available to Chaos players as well but alas it was not to be.

Anybody who plays these I will not play against. Its like them saying hey, I found an invincible model so I'm going to bring three of them and theres nothing you can do about it because theres nothing in your entire codex that can stop it.

Yeah, that is WAAAAAY too OP.

Put marines in there and it's sitting on an objective and scoring :p

I like it! Doesn't seem too overpowered to me. The 300 pts tag means I'm really only going to field this is 2000pts+ games and then your enemy should have more than enough tanks or monsterous creatures to deal with it. In my experience of using the LR variants I don't think people have to worry too much. I gonna built one!

make sure you post pics, maybe evn a tut.

I would think you could follow the Ares tutorial from GW and simply convert the Demolisher Cannon into a Thunderfire (with the barrel cover from a thunder fire or scratch it) and replace the Heavy Flamers with Multi-meltas.

Won't get nearly as nice looking a front plate but it would certainly work.

Jack

hmm- true... I still wanna get the FW model- I think it looks awesome.

Emperors_Champion wrote:I like it! Doesn't seem too overpowered to me. The 300 pts tag means I'm really only going to field this is 2000pts+ games and then your enemy should have more than enough tanks or monsterous creatures to deal with it. In my experience of using the LR variants I don't think people have to worry too much. I gonna built one!

In actuality, this is not true.
As I said before, we had eight lascannons - two of which were twin linked- and were woefully underprepared. Of course, we weren't expecting them, either.
Could we build a list TO combat these monstrosities? Sure. If our opponent ens up playing something entirely different, though, our army is going to be horribly off-kilter.
The truth of the matter is that these models are not wel balanced for the points. Especially not against an "all comers" list.

I've already made the announcement to the other 3 guys in the group. If you list has these in it, you'll get a, "Congratulations. You win. Want to play again, with a different list?" That's a kind of static response to over-the-top stuff (like the FW Ork Big Mek that lets you take a stompa in non-Apoc games).

Eric

hmm. true.

=Inquisitor= wrote:I'd love to build an army around 3 of these:

Bjorn - 270

Dreadnought: 2 TL-Autocannons - 125
Dreadnought: 2 TL-Autocannons - 125
Dreadnought: 2 TL-Autocannons - 125

Grey Hunters x6: Flamer - 90
Grey Hunters x5: Flamer - 75
Grey Hunters x5: Flamer - 75

Land Speeder Typhoon - 90
Land Speeder Typhoon - 90

Land Raider Achilles: Siege Shield - 310
Land Raider Achilles: Siege Shield - 310
Land Raider Achilles: Siege Shield - 310

1995/2000

This looks like bucket loads of fun.

This list is scary DESTROY IT!

It seems like a fun tank to me. The tfc seems scary though, putting it on such a durable vehicle makes up for the fact it can't use indirect fire.

Has no one thought of using a load of meltabombs against it? they don't actually use the "melta" rule so will still kill it pretty well.

Trickstick wrote:
Has no one thought of using a load of meltabombs against it? they don't actually use the "melta" rule so will still kill it pretty well.

Many things (thought not always commonly used choices) can beat its armour fine. Most folks are fixated on its -1 to damage rolls, which I observe as making it still less tough versus penetrating hits, then the "only glance, holo-field Falcons" were previously.

Jack

The problem is that only certain things can kill it against one person's army it can be killable, but against other armies and entire races it is unkillable.

yeah, that's the problem. too har to kill.