I want to know which codex is the best shooty army. I mean overall, not just "Long Fangs muff stuff up!", or "RAILGUNS!". I mean taken as an integrated army system, with units supporting each other, to get the most out of their shooting phase.

P.S. if I missed any armies, let me know.

I'm no Guard buff but I know 20 Lascannons are good stuff. Long Fangs rock because the Wolves player is also rocking you in combat the whole time but pure shooting goes to Guard.

Orks is da best!

Big Mek w/KFF 85 Points
2x(11xLootas) 330 Points
10xLootas 150 Points
5x(29xShoota Boys[3 w/Rokkit Launchas]+Nob w/Klaw) 1225 Points
2x(3xWarbuggies w/TL Rokkits) 210 Points

2000 Points

DAKKADAKKADAKKADAKKADAKKADAKKADAKKADAKKADAKKADAKKADAKKADAKKA

I believe IG<SW. This is why:

Imperial Guard get most of their heavy hitting shooters in the HS slot. Sure they can get infantry heavy weapons, but most of the HWs ends up coming from HS or vendettas.

Space Wolves can more effectively make use of FOC slots. They get very good heavy weapons for their points cost, missile launchers, AND las/plas razorbacks for each slot. Unlike IG, these two units cannot be suppressed together and don't suffer from squadron rules, like having to shoot at the same target.

Imperial Guard can bring loads of cheap twin-linked lascannons and nice str10 pieplates, but ultimately, once FOC run out, the Space Wolves can make better use of those slots.

I would really want to answer ''Tau'', but unfortunately that would be a lie. >

IG have finally outpaced the Tau for excellent shooting. Squadrons of Russes and Valkyries will devour anything and everything on the board.

haizelhoff wrote:I believe IG<SW. This is why:

Imperial Guard get most of their heavy hitting shooters in the HS slot. Sure they can get infantry heavy weapons, but most of the HWs ends up coming from HS or vendettas.

Space Wolves can more effectively make use of FOC slots. They get very good heavy weapons for their points cost, missile launchers, AND las/plas razorbacks for each slot. Unlike IG, these two units cannot be suppressed together and don't suffer from squadron rules, like having to shoot at the same target.

Imperial Guard can bring loads of cheap twin-linked lascannons and nice str10 pieplates, but ultimately, once FOC run out, the Space Wolves can make better use of those slots.

I would really want to answer ''Tau'', but unfortunately that would be a lie. >

I would agree with you if it wasn't for the IG being able to take heavy weapons in every slot... Infantry squads get one each and then there's heavy weapon squads, plus sentinels, vendettas, or hellhounds in fast attack, even HQs can have a HWT in the command squad. The heavy support slot can fit in as many as 9 tanks as well. That makes for a ton of heavy weapons, if you can afford them!


Automatically Appended Next Post:
I also meant to mention that you can put those heavy weapons squads in chimeras, which creates a unit as effective as a razorback when all things are considered.

Tau

Tau would be the best, if you didn't get more value per point spent out of IG. While individually Tau units are better, they just are not as efficient in terms of point costs. Since you get more bang for your buck out IG, they come out on top. I'd like to see a revised Tau codex put them slightly ahead again.

Space Wolves and Tau can put out more shots than guard, but guard easily throws out the most templates of any kind. Executioners, Demolishers, Battlecannons, heavy flamers on Chimeras, all the artillery pieces, Hellhounds and their variants...hell, there's even armoured sentinels with plasma cannons if you really want.

Can of worms! Hoooooo!

Imperial Guard or Blood Angels (yes!) get my vote.

IG get squadronned Heavy Support slots, upto 5, 3 x heavy weapons and upto 5, 1 x heavy weapons PER TROOPS SLOT and can generally take more big guns than any other codex in the game at the moment.

Blood Angels can take a re-diculous amounts of fast(!) assault cannon Razorbacks, Vindicators and Baal predators. Couple this with DoA Assault squads and cheaper-than-thou Devestators and a strong, shooty and most importantly, mobile army you have.

L. Wrex

i belive that vanille marines are contenders.


they may not have as many shots as IG, but they make that up in the quality. Typhoons can put out cheap accurate missiles, Dreadnoughts are the most efficient and accurate Auto-cannons in the game, and this is combined with the resiliancy of 3+ armor and good CC support.

I don't think any flavor of marines can really compete. Every since slot in IG/Tau can be filled with point efficient shooty choices. They can get more better shots for their points. Sure, marines will have better assaulting units to compensate, but purely considering shooting they are not a contender. Razor+longfang spam Wolves/mechspam bloodangels are as close as it gets. But in pure shooting I think they are still behind IG/Tau (to a lesser extent)

I don't think that vanilla marines even hold a candle... Sorry. Too few in quantity. If youre looking to wipe an opponent from the table in a shooting phase, only the guard and some variant codex of SM have that ability in the imperial forces. Vanilla SM cannot get enough long-range heavy weapons to compare.

FoxPhoenix135 wrote:I don't think that vanilla marines even hold a candle... Sorry. Too few in quantity. If youre looking to wipe an opponent from the table in a shooting phase, only the guard and some variant codex of SM have that ability in the imperial forces. Vanilla SM cannot get enough long-range heavy weapons to compare.

Really? I'm not sure that's entirely true. How about a challenge on that one. You pick one of the non-vanilla codices and make a list, any value up to 2k. Then I'll make a vanilla list that packs in as many heavy weapons and we'll see if your statement holds up.

I think IG beat Space Wolves.

A Chimera beats a Las/plas Razorback at any distance between 25" and 42", head to head trying to kill each other. Which is normal turn 1 engagement distance in 40k.

IG also makes better use of cover, having cheap models who maximize the value of cover saves, and being able to grant their more valuable vehicles improved cover saves via camo nets, and shielding them with the cheaper Chimeras.

Long Fangs are great, but IG infantry weapons can either be twin-linked or force you to re-roll your cover saves.

In truth a pair of maxed-out shooty armies will come down more to who gets the first turn, though IG should win that contest too, as they can use officers to Reserve more effectively and impair the SW's ability to Reserve against them.

Dracos wrote:

FoxPhoenix135 wrote:I don't think that vanilla marines even hold a candle... Sorry. Too few in quantity. If youre looking to wipe an opponent from the table in a shooting phase, only the guard and some variant codex of SM have that ability in the imperial forces. Vanilla SM cannot get enough long-range heavy weapons to compare.

Really? I'm not sure that's entirely true. How about a challenge on that one. You pick one of the non-vanilla codices and make a list, any value up to 2k. Then I'll make a vanilla list that packs in as many heavy weapons and we'll see if your statement holds up.

Moot point, because IG trumps all the SM in the number of heavy weapons they can take.

IG, hands down.

yeah. there's really no contest here.

Yep - IG can take more. Lets say at 1850 points they bring 50 heavy weapons...... ~25 hit, BiD not-with-standing unless Kell is on the table. (45 AC and 5 LC)

Vanilla Marines at 1850 bring 30 HW's for ~20 hits (assuming single shot weapons for simplicity sake). (mix from TL HB through LC)

vanilla Marines really do it for me, A Msl in tac squads, plenty of melta available. Lascannons and Missles everywhere you look ... and they can take an assault lol

I play IG and SM

BS3 makes me cry too often even with Vendettas

A difference of one pip of the dice does not account for the disparity in quantity, really. Battle cannons do not benefit that much from +1 BS. Orders help further close the gap. SM cannot get the kind of raw shooting firepower that IG can get. We are not talking about toughness, or saves, but raw firepower when it comes to shooting. How many S10 blast templates can SM get? IG can get nine, just out of the heavy support slot. Add in a possible 9 flyers with 3 TL Lascannons each, and it gets ridiculous. That's not even counting the weapons available to infantry. Granted, you won't max out the force org chart in normal games, but point-for-point the guard are just plain more effective at shooting than vanilla SM.

depends how you look at it, starters basic troops.
Ratlings are better at snipin
Boltgun vs lasgun ... the special weapons are nice I admit
I'll take the Hydra over the Russes
Now I remember why I bought guard ...

Alright admitted guard has raw power

Dracos wrote:
Really? I'm not sure that's entirely true. How about a challenge on that one. You pick one of the non-vanilla codices and make a list, any value up to 2k. Then I'll make a vanilla list that packs in as many heavy weapons and we'll see if your statement holds up.

Can you do that, and post it here? Just interested to see your list.

As requested, random spammy 2k Vanilla SM firepower list

HQ MotF Conversion beamer 120
Elite Dakka dread 2x Twinlinked autocannons 125
Elite Dakka dread 2x Twinlinked autocannons 125
Elite Dakka dread 2x Twinlinked autocannons 125
Troops Tactical x5 Combiflamer, Las/tl plas razorback 175
Troops Tactical x5 Combiflamer, Las/tl plas razorback 175
Troops Tactical x5 Combiflamer, Las/tl plas razorback 175
Troops Tactical x5 Las/tl plas razorback 165
Fast Typhoon x2 180
Fast Typhoon x2 180
Fast Typhoon 90
Heavy Predator AC/las 120
Heavy Predator AC/las 120
Heavy Predator AC/las 120

1995

35 Heavy weapons (counting typhoon missiles as 2 weapons, I guess only like 30 if you count them as one)

edit: It took me about 1 minute to put this together.

mmmmmmmm, dakka

IG gets my vote.

First rank fire, Second rank fire

i have seen a blob squad of 31 guardsmen (3 sgt, 3 melta, 24 lasguns, and a commissar) take down a squad of 5 termies like they were nothing with that order. it was impresive. i think a total of 14 wounds were scored against those five. not even SM can make that many saves.

Dracos wrote:As requested, random spammy 2k Vanilla SM firepower list

HQ MotF Conversion beamer 120
Elite Dakka dread 2x Twinlinked autocannons 125
Elite Dakka dread 2x Twinlinked autocannons 125
Elite Dakka dread 2x Twinlinked autocannons 125
Troops Tactical x5 Combiflamer, Las/tl plas razorback 175
Troops Tactical x5 Combiflamer, Las/tl plas razorback 175
Troops Tactical x5 Combiflamer, Las/tl plas razorback 175
Troops Tactical x5 Las/tl plas razorback 165
Fast Typhoon x2 180
Fast Typhoon x2 180
Fast Typhoon 90
Heavy Predator AC/las 120
Heavy Predator AC/las 120
Heavy Predator AC/las 120

1995

35 Heavy weapons (counting typhoon missiles as 2 weapons, I guess only like 30 if you count them as one)

edit: It took me about 1 minute to put this together.

So if i bring Hydras can i count them as 3 Hvy weapons per vehicle? 2 twin linked Hydra cannons and a Hull HB?
if so 3 HS slots with with 3 sqd. of Hydras each would be 27 hvy wpns. and that's just the HS sllots. start counting Inf. squads and it really gets sick....
sorry, IG all day long.....

Read my earlier posts, I said exactly what you just said. You post that like you are refuting a claim of mine. All I said was that vanilla marines can pack the firepower into a list the same as other SM armies.

IG is still king.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

alarmingrick wrote:So if i bring Hydras can i count them as 3 Hvy weapons per vehicle? 2 twin linked Hydra cannons and a Hull HB?
if so 3 HS slots with with 3 sqd. of Hydras each would be 27 hvy wpns. and that's just the HS sllots. start counting Inf. squads and it really gets sick....
sorry, IG all day long.....

It helps to read the whole thread.

edit: Just out of curiosity, how many points is the 9 hydras?

Dracos wrote:Read my earlier posts, I said exactly what you just said. You post that like you are refuting a claim of mine. All I said was that vanilla marines can pack the firepower into a list the same as other SM armies.

IG is still king.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

alarmingrick wrote:So if i bring Hydras can i count them as 3 Hvy weapons per vehicle? 2 twin linked Hydra cannons and a Hull HB?
if so 3 HS slots with with 3 sqd. of Hydras each would be 27 hvy wpns. and that's just the HS sllots. start counting Inf. squads and it really gets sick....
sorry, IG all day long.....

It helps to read the whole thread.

i was agreeing with you....

and i did read it, Thanks!

Thats some tasty dakka right there!

Saying "sorry, ig all day long" implies that you proved me wrong. If that was not your intent, then I'm confused as to what purpose the sentence serves or what else it could be trying to communicate.

Tzeentchling9 wrote:

Lol!

NOT... ENOUGH... DAKKAAAAA....

Seriously, though, I know it's a stereotype, but I'm kind of surprised to see guard walk away with this one so easily. There are other shooty armies that are reasonable competitors, like ork and tyranid (or the new DE for that matter).

Dracos wrote:Saying "sorry, ig all day long" implies that you proved me wrong. If that was not your intent, then I'm confused as to what purpose the sentence serves or what else it could be trying to communicate.

i'll try to be more clear for you:
in my opinion it's sorry, ig all day long is my reply to the poll.
sorry if i came across as i was picking, attacking or anything you personally.

Yeah I guess I was way off base by thinking the comment was directed to me after you quoted me.

Dracos wrote:Yeah I guess I was way off base by thinking the comment was directed to me after you quoted me.

your taking the idea of giving the Typhoons 2 weapons gave me the idea of the Hydras with 3. i was quoting what you said at the bottom and was to lazy to remove
the irrelevant bits.
last time i'm addressing this. i was not coming after you, as mentioned. we drug this OT enough, i'm sorry if i came off that way.
and am done talking about this. Happy gaming!

Hard to even compare the HS slot choices of the Guard against everything else.

How many points is the 9 hydras anyways?

not very much.

i don't think they are more then 100 pts each.

of course they are on a Basilisk Chassis so they fall over to a stiff wind.

Dracos wrote:How many points is the 9 hydras anyways?

675 points.

For 36 twin linked S7 AP4 shots a turn with your choice of 9 heavy bolters or 9 heavy flamers.

Of course, they do sort of get diminishing return.

And plenty of HS choices hold a candle to the guard. The guard has good HS slots because they're CHEAP not because they're necessarily the BEST (well, except for maybe the manticore)

Only 675?! 75 points a piece?

Wow, not that I play IG, but I think taking 3 units of 2 for 450 is pretty killer. Add in some vets in flying 3 TL las planes and some chimeras and you are putting out alot of dakka.

I'm kinda surprised that I don't see more of them used at that price. Makes my new DE cringe.

Nevermind, my Succubus is whispering in my ear that the hydras are terrible. Quick, everyone, don't take them. They are bad.

True story.

Dracos wrote:Only 675?! 75 points a piece?

Wow, not that I play IG, but I think taking 3 units of 2 for 450 is pretty killer. Add in some vets in flying 3 TL las planes and some chimeras and you are putting out alot of dakka.

I'm kinda surprised that I don't see more of them used at that price. Makes my new DE cringe.

Nevermind, my Succubus is whispering in my ear that the hydras are terrible. Quick, everyone, don't take them. They are bad.

True story.

I think the fact that the FW version is so freakin' expensive could be a factor. if GW does a Plastic vesion, they might be more around.
i use them.

Orks.

An Ork army can take 45 autocannons just in its Elite slots. They can fire up to 135 S7 shorts per turn. Add onto that Shoota Boys, which have the best shots-per-point in the game with their assault 2 weapon, and the various Fast Attack and Heavy Support options. For isntance, a Battlewagon could have a S7 killkannon, a S8 kannon, and four S8 rokkits. Or you could fill those slots with nine kannons for more S8 transport-busting goodness.

Of course, the Ork shooty army does have a glaring weakness that the others don't; no way to deal with AV 14 at range. But going by sheer mass of ranged firepower, the Ork gunline is the indisputable king.

I chose tau as they have no good assault units (kroot don't have enough attacks), guard aren't good at assault either but tau are better at shooting.

TRISKELION7 wrote:I chose tau as they have no good assault units (kroot don't have enough attacks), guard aren't good at assault either but tau are better at shooting.

You really think that!

Tau have a broken codex, BS 4!
I think that anyone who votes Tau have obviously not had much experience with armies such as guard or Marines. Just because Tau haven't got good assault units doesn't mean that their shooting units are any better.

IMHO the Tau;s problem isnt their guns, their actualy guns are amazing, in fact if you handed pulse and rail weapons to just about any other army then they would be a holy terror.

Unfortunately tau models are A Expensive and B Mediocre Shots

I mean is their a tau player out there who would quite happily go down to a 5+ save just to get a points decrease? on FW?



On topic, IG, so much.....

I voted for IG with all their cool tanks; addtionally, they have cheap heavy weapon teams.

Imperial Gunli... Guard.

Dracos wrote:Only 675?! 75 points a piece?

Yes, but...

BeRzErKeR wrote:An Ork army can take 45 autocannons just in its Elite slots.

Lootas do it even more.

Those exact same 675 points gets you 45 lootas, which put down up to 135 autocannon shots per turn. Yes, they're not twin-linked and only BS2, but in the case of guard, you're putting down about 27 hits, while with the orks, you're putting down about 45 hits.

Same price, up to nearly twice the carnage.

Plus, Lootas can get cover saves rather easily, while hydras are stuck with squadron rules...

The lootas do not put down 135 shots per turn. They put down 45-135 shots a turn, averaging 90 shots. 90 shots averages 30 hits. 27 hits isn't that much less than 30, and the 27 hits ignore flat out cover save. They both have their positives and negatives. But lets not over state how good lootas are by assuming they hit a 3 shots a turn every turn.

I'd say tau since their troops of an above standard gun IMO. Railguns too.

I'm voting for either Orkz or IG. IG are an obvious choice, and Orkz can come pretty damn close to matching the volume of fire that Guard can provide. The main difference between the two is how you can apply that firepower.

I dont understand why people think Tau are shootier than Guard because "Their basic troops have st5 guns" and "they have Krrot, and suck in CC". tau have nowhere near the quantity or, dare I say, the quality of HS choices. While its true that s5 guns on your troops is great, it loses its luster when you notice that a Guardsman is nearly half the points of this said model (Fire Warriors if you didnt get it).

Tau also are extremely limited in their HS choices. Broadsides are good, but put out a max of 3 s10 shots a turn per unit. While that isnt bad, compare it to guard who can poop out d3 s10 pieplates for 50 pints less. Not counting the requisite drones and support systems to make the Broadsides survivable.

IMO the Tau codex is is just badly designed... Guardsmen can excel at combat while sacrificing some shooting options (taking guardsmen instead of Vets). Tau have...um...Kroot. yeah.

just my opinion

As a note, hydras do not ignore cover saves, they just ignore SMF. Plus, lootas can't get shut down by weapon destroyed results and can still be deadly on the charge, but I digress...

I'd agree that tau aren't the best shooters, but I'd say the above assessment misses a few things.

Tau HS support choices aren't the best out there, but you're still talking about something which has twin-linked S10 weapons and a 2++ with shield drones. Likewise, the hammerhead is still a skimmer, and with pods is allowed to gain SMF without moving too fast to actually shoot it's cannon. A cannon which, my the way, is also good against hordes. I mean, seriously, compare the hammerhead to any other skimmer-based HS choice...

Also, with extra range and S5, tau infantry are able to handle monstrous creatures by themselves, which no other basic troops choice can easily do, and they don't need to bring special weapons just to handle AV10 vehicles.

Finally, the thing that's missing is crisis suits. You can take units that deepstrike and throw down 6 melta (or 12 no-overheat plasma) shots without your opponent being able to do anything about them before they get their opening salvo off. They're like cheap sternguard.

Oh, and everything can be helped my markerlights.

The problem with tau shooting isn't that it's weak per se, it's that it's more difficult to use properly than other armies.

Crisis suits and broadsides are why Tau are so good at shooting, not firewarriors. Railguns are the best antitank weapon in the game. They fall just short of IG because all the IG stuff is more cost efficient, even if its not has high quality.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Dracos wrote: the 27 hits ignore flat out cover save.

Ailaros wrote:As a note, hydras do not ignore cover saves, they just ignore SMF.

Yep that's what I said.

Oh, lol. I thought you said "ignores, flat out, cover saves" not "ignores flat-out cover saves".

Stupid english.

Exactly. And even though the Broadsides are tough to kill, they are still vulnerable to instant death. Also hammerheads are as good as HS skimmers come I guess... which, IMO, is not very. mine never managed to do much besides get focused fired' because people are so scared of it. And rightly so

Kabalite Trueborn with splinter cannons (or blasters) in a venom (with splinter cannons) puts out an obscene amount of BS4 poisoned shots. This is great for stopping hordes dead in their tracks with mobile firepower. Give them blasters and they can suddenly waste vehicles and elite choices (MEQ look out!). Take a 20 man unit of warriors, plop them in area cover near an objective and rapid fire anything in range. I also love ravagers for obvious reasons.

Imperial Guard in every single way I can't even see the debate.

the debate is that there are other armies that can spam quantity, like ork and tyranid, and there are other armies that can spam quality, like space marines, eldar, and tau.

Really, the only thing unique about guard shooting is that it has lots of sources of cheap pie, which no other army can do as well.

That and the army's firepower is much better balanced, but that might just be a codex thing, not a army-in-general thing.

I was going to vote IG, but your poll made the mistake of asking the 'shootiest' army, and no army is more shootier then da orks! Who cares if you miss 2/3 of your shots, dakkadakkadakka!

Viper217 wrote:I was going to vote IG, but your poll made the mistake of asking the 'shootiest' army, and no army is more shootier then da orks! Who cares if you miss 2/3 of your shots, dakkadakkadakka!

Point taken! That made me laugh! I wish I could change my answer now!

Dracos wrote:As requested, random spammy 2k Vanilla SM firepower list

HQ MotF Conversion beamer 120
Elite Dakka dread 2x Twinlinked autocannons 125
Elite Dakka dread 2x Twinlinked autocannons 125
Elite Dakka dread 2x Twinlinked autocannons 125
Troops Tactical x5 Combiflamer, Las/tl plas razorback 175
Troops Tactical x5 Combiflamer, Las/tl plas razorback 175
Troops Tactical x5 Combiflamer, Las/tl plas razorback 175
Troops Tactical x5 Las/tl plas razorback 165
Fast Typhoon x2 180
Fast Typhoon x2 180
Fast Typhoon 90
Heavy Predator AC/las 120
Heavy Predator AC/las 120
Heavy Predator AC/las 120

1995

35 Heavy weapons (counting typhoon missiles as 2 weapons, I guess only like 30 if you count them as one)

edit: It took me about 1 minute to put this together.

You didnt quite prove FoxPhoenix wrong. I can have everything you have, and more in a SW list (if you consider SW to be a variant).

HQ Wolf Guard Battle Leader
Elite Dakka dread 2x Twinlinked autocannons
Elite Dakka dread 2x Twinlinked autocannons
Elite Dakka dread 2x Twinlinked autocannons
Troop 5x Grey Hunter Flamer, Las/tl plas razorback
Troop 5x Grey Hunter Flamer, Las/tl plas razorback
Troop 5x Grey Hunter Flamer, Las/tl plas razorback
Troop 5x Grey Hunter Flamer, Las/tl plas razorback
Fast 2x Typhoon 2x Missile Launcher
Fast 2x Typhoon 2x Missile Launcher
Fast 2x Typhoon 2x Missile Launcher

Heavy 6x Long Fangs 5x Missile Launcher
Heavy 6x Long Fangs 5x Missile Launcher
Heavy 5x Long Fangs 4x Missile Launcher

I have everything that you have, plus 16 more ML in replacement of your 6 Lasc and 3 AC. Either that, or I copy and paste your list, and have about 90 points left (though the Long Fangs is the more efficient choice).

Blacksails wrote:Space Wolves and Tau can put out more shots than guard, but guard easily throws out the most templates of any kind. Executioners, Demolishers, Battlecannons, heavy flamers on Chimeras, all the artillery pieces, Hellhounds and their variants...hell, there's even armoured sentinels with plasma cannons if you really want.

How can they put out more shots than guard can with FRFSRF?

ChocolateGork wrote:How can they put out more shots than guard can with FRFSRF?

Oh, right, this is something I forgot about when comparing guard to orks.

Orks are full of dakka, but a single imperial guard troops choice can put down 330 lasgun shots per turn. For reference, that's 40 dead boyz from a single troops choice in a single turn.

To rate Tau, you have to see someone who knows the army, has a tooled in list and is a good player. I do not play Tau myself, but I watched a Tau player chew through horde orks and horde nids at a 1500 pt tourny. This question needs a points limit. Tau at 1500 points can be just nasty, but after that they do not scale well where IG do not run out of good places to use their points.

striderx wrote:I have everything that you have, plus 16 more ML in replacement of your 6 Lasc and 3 AC. Either that, or I copy and paste your list, and have about 90 points left (though the Long Fangs is the more efficient choice).

You also don't have a Conversion beamer.

The question wasn't if the vanilla SM can put in more heavies, but rather if they are comparable. If the only difference is trading 16ML shots for 6 LC, 6AC and 1 conversion beamer shots, I would say they certainly are comparable.

In that respect, I did show that it is faulty to say they are not comparable.

It has to be the imperial guard.

Massed las-guns supported by heavy weapons and high strength Leman Russ weapons must be good.

striderx wrote:

Dracos wrote:As requested, random spammy 2k Vanilla SM firepower list

HQ MotF Conversion beamer 120
Elite Dakka dread 2x Twinlinked autocannons 125
Elite Dakka dread 2x Twinlinked autocannons 125
Elite Dakka dread 2x Twinlinked autocannons 125
Troops Tactical x5 Combiflamer, Las/tl plas razorback 175
Troops Tactical x5 Combiflamer, Las/tl plas razorback 175
Troops Tactical x5 Combiflamer, Las/tl plas razorback 175
Troops Tactical x5 Las/tl plas razorback 165
Fast Typhoon x2 180
Fast Typhoon x2 180
Fast Typhoon 90
Heavy Predator AC/las 120
Heavy Predator AC/las 120
Heavy Predator AC/las 120

1995

35 Heavy weapons (counting typhoon missiles as 2 weapons, I guess only like 30 if you count them as one)

edit: It took me about 1 minute to put this together.

You didnt quite prove FoxPhoenix wrong. I can have everything you have, and more in a SW list (if you consider SW to be a variant).

HQ Wolf Guard Battle Leader
Elite Dakka dread 2x Twinlinked autocannons
Elite Dakka dread 2x Twinlinked autocannons
Elite Dakka dread 2x Twinlinked autocannons
Troop 5x Grey Hunter Flamer, Las/tl plas razorback
Troop 5x Grey Hunter Flamer, Las/tl plas razorback
Troop 5x Grey Hunter Flamer, Las/tl plas razorback
Troop 5x Grey Hunter Flamer, Las/tl plas razorback
Fast 2x Typhoon 2x Missile Launcher
Fast 2x Typhoon 2x Missile Launcher
Fast 2x Typhoon 2x Missile Launcher

Heavy 6x Long Fangs 5x Missile Launcher
Heavy 6x Long Fangs 5x Missile Launcher
Heavy 5x Long Fangs 4x Missile Launcher

I have everything that you have, plus 16 more ML in replacement of your 6 Lasc and 3 AC. Either that, or I copy and paste your list, and have about 90 points left (though the Long Fangs is the more efficient choice).

isnt it restricted to 1 typhoon per squadron?

Anyway it's really up there between vanilla/wolves/ig I feel

Would it be a squadron with a single typhoon?

Necrons!!!! In the next codex release.... please?

Allow my rebuttal to the SM spam lists out there:

2000 Pts - 5th Edition Roster - ML spam

HQ: Company Command Squad (5#, 65 pts)
4 Company Command Squad @ 50 pts w/ ML @+15
1 Company Commander

Troops: Infantry Platoon (40#, 625 pts)
1 Infantry Platoon @ 625 pts
2 Platoon Command Squad
1 Heavy Weapons Team (Missile Launcher)
1 Platoon Commander
7 Infantry Squad
1 Heavy Weapons Team (Missile Launcher)
1 Sergeant
7 Infantry Squad
1 Heavy Weapons Team (Missile Launcher)
1 Sergeant
3 Heavy Weapons Squad (Missile Launcher x3)
3 Heavy Weapons Squad (Missile Launcher x3)
3 Heavy Weapons Squad (Missile Launcher x3)
3 Heavy Weapons Squad (Missile Launcher x3)
3 Heavy Weapons Squad (Missile Launcher x3)

Troops: Infantry Platoon (40#, 625 pts)
1 Infantry Platoon @ 625 pts
2 Platoon Command Squad
1 Heavy Weapons Team (Missile Launcher)
1 Platoon Commander
7 Infantry Squad
1 Heavy Weapons Team (Missile Launcher)
1 Sergeant
7 Infantry Squad
1 Heavy Weapons Team (Missile Launcher)
1 Sergeant
3 Heavy Weapons Squad (Missile Launcher x3)
3 Heavy Weapons Squad (Missile Launcher x3)
3 Heavy Weapons Squad (Missile Launcher x3)
3 Heavy Weapons Squad (Missile Launcher x3)
3 Heavy Weapons Squad (Missile Launcher x3)

Troops: Infantry Platoon (37#, 535 pts)
1 Infantry Platoon @ 535 pts
2 Platoon Command Squad
1 Heavy Weapons Team (Missile Launcher)
1 Platoon Commander
7 Infantry Squad
1 Heavy Weapons Team (Missile Launcher)
1 Sergeant
7 Infantry Squad
1 Heavy Weapons Team (Missile Launcher)
1 Sergeant
3 Heavy Weapons Squad (Missile Launcher x3)
3 Heavy Weapons Squad (Missile Launcher x3)
3 Heavy Weapons Squad (Missile Launcher x3)
3 Heavy Weapons Squad (Missile Launcher x3)



Total Roster Cost: 1850 out of 2000


Let's count how many MLs that is: 52 Missile launchers. I left enough points in the list you could easily swap many of those for ACs, LCs, mortars and what-have-you, or add in an ordnance battery, a master of ordnance, etc etc.

With 52 shots at 48", S8, AP 3, you are bound to do damage, even at BS 3. They still can glance AV 14, and that many glances are going to add up to some serious damage to even heavy vehicles. Can you imagine lists that utilize razorback spam? Dead. Their weak armor would shred under the barrage of missiles , especially if guard go first.

Alternatively, if you are facing a horde like other gunline IG or Orks, the MLs would then be spitting out 52 small blasts at S4 AP 5. Considering the small blast template has a diameter of 3", you could imagine the kind of coverage you would get: 28.26 inches squared times 52 to be exact, or 1469.52 inches squared assuming there are no overlaps.

In addition to the sheer amount of firepower you have if you go first, you still have massive amounts of bodies to soak up damage, give cover, etc to the ML squads. I would guess that you wouldn't loose over 1/3 of those bodies unless your opponent has a similar amount of pie-plate spam to send your way, allowing you to shoot at nearly full strength even if you shoot second in the first turn.

Anyway, so the masters of Spam appear to be the guard, as far as I can see. They have the cheap troops to stuff in the quantity, if not the quality.

interesting take on spam I like it

yea i dont have my sw codex on me but im sure its limited to 1 typhoon per squadron

I really have no words for that list foxPhoenix... pure win

Yeah... doing the math on those templates really made my head explode.

Consider that out of that possible 1469.5" that the templates could potentially cover, what if they hit only a quarter of that many models? Models on a 1" base have an area of 3.14" squared, approximately. If you hit only a few models under every template (call it 3-4 on average), you are still looking at 170-200 hits on infantry models out of those shots. Yowza!

On Ork Boyz: that equals around 75-100 dead, unless hard boyz, painboys etc.
On Imperial Guardsmen: That equals around 100-130 dead, unless carapace-equipped.

Mathhammer is fun to think about, but I doubt this is very realistic!

Poor Necrons.....

There not all that bad at shooting really... (not the best though....)

Dracos wrote:You also don't have a Conversion beamer.

The question wasn't if the vanilla SM can put in more heavies, but rather if they are comparable. If the only difference is trading 16ML shots for 6 LC, 6AC and 1 conversion beamer shots, I would say they certainly are comparable.

In that respect, I did show that it is faulty to say they are not comparable.

When I said I copy and paste your list and have 90 pts left, I meant the MOTF in as well (although SW don't have that). But the pt is if you want anything pure shooty, you are better off taking SW than SM vanilla because I can take everything cheaper than you do.

And if we scale the lists down to anything like 1750 or 1850, I ll certainly trump your list further.

Yeah you are really good at making illegal lists, way to go. Or did you miss the part where SW can only take 1 Typhoon per squadron? I forgot about that until someone else pointed it out.

Dracos wrote:Yeah you are really good at making illegal lists, way to go. Or did you miss the part where SW can only take 1 Typhoon per squadron? I forgot about that until someone else pointed it out.

1) Before you accuse someone of making illegal list, please use the search function and refer to a thread in YMTC about this single typhoon dispute.
2) Dropping 3 Landspeeder only gives me enough points to purchase 3 more razorbacks, which means 3 more lasc and 3 more plasma gun. And net me an extra 45 points (on top of the 90 I already have).

So it's either I trumped you at 2k points, or I trump you to a greater extend at 1750. Way to go.

FoxPhoenix135 wrote:Allow my rebuttal to the SM spam lists out there:

2000 Pts - 5th Edition Roster - ML spam

HQ: Company Command Squad (5#, 65 pts)
4 Company Command Squad @ 50 pts w/ ML @+15
1 Company Commander

Troops: Infantry Platoon (40#, 625 pts)
1 Infantry Platoon @ 625 pts
2 Platoon Command Squad
1 Heavy Weapons Team (Missile Launcher)
1 Platoon Commander
7 Infantry Squad
1 Heavy Weapons Team (Missile Launcher)
1 Sergeant
7 Infantry Squad
1 Heavy Weapons Team (Missile Launcher)
1 Sergeant
3 Heavy Weapons Squad (Missile Launcher x3)
3 Heavy Weapons Squad (Missile Launcher x3)
3 Heavy Weapons Squad (Missile Launcher x3)
3 Heavy Weapons Squad (Missile Launcher x3)
3 Heavy Weapons Squad (Missile Launcher x3)

Troops: Infantry Platoon (40#, 625 pts)
1 Infantry Platoon @ 625 pts
2 Platoon Command Squad
1 Heavy Weapons Team (Missile Launcher)
1 Platoon Commander
7 Infantry Squad
1 Heavy Weapons Team (Missile Launcher)
1 Sergeant
7 Infantry Squad
1 Heavy Weapons Team (Missile Launcher)
1 Sergeant
3 Heavy Weapons Squad (Missile Launcher x3)
3 Heavy Weapons Squad (Missile Launcher x3)
3 Heavy Weapons Squad (Missile Launcher x3)
3 Heavy Weapons Squad (Missile Launcher x3)
3 Heavy Weapons Squad (Missile Launcher x3)

Troops: Infantry Platoon (37#, 535 pts)
1 Infantry Platoon @ 535 pts
2 Platoon Command Squad
1 Heavy Weapons Team (Missile Launcher)
1 Platoon Commander
7 Infantry Squad
1 Heavy Weapons Team (Missile Launcher)
1 Sergeant
7 Infantry Squad
1 Heavy Weapons Team (Missile Launcher)
1 Sergeant
3 Heavy Weapons Squad (Missile Launcher x3)
3 Heavy Weapons Squad (Missile Launcher x3)
3 Heavy Weapons Squad (Missile Launcher x3)
3 Heavy Weapons Squad (Missile Launcher x3)



Total Roster Cost: 1850 out of 2000


Let's count how many MLs that is: 52 Missile launchers. I left enough points in the list you could easily swap many of those for ACs, LCs, mortars and what-have-you, or add in an ordnance battery, a master of ordnance, etc etc.

With 52 shots at 48", S8, AP 3, you are bound to do damage, even at BS 3. They still can glance AV 14, and that many glances are going to add up to some serious damage to even heavy vehicles. Can you imagine lists that utilize razorback spam? Dead. Their weak armor would shred under the barrage of missiles , especially if guard go first.

Alternatively, if you are facing a horde like other gunline IG or Orks, the MLs would then be spitting out 52 small blasts at S4 AP 5. Considering the small blast template has a diameter of 3", you could imagine the kind of coverage you would get: 28.26 inches squared times 52 to be exact, or 1469.52 inches squared assuming there are no overlaps.

In addition to the sheer amount of firepower you have if you go first, you still have massive amounts of bodies to soak up damage, give cover, etc to the ML squads. I would guess that you wouldn't loose over 1/3 of those bodies unless your opponent has a similar amount of pie-plate spam to send your way, allowing you to shoot at nearly full strength even if you shoot second in the first turn.

Anyway, so the masters of Spam appear to be the guard, as far as I can see. They have the cheap troops to stuff in the quantity, if not the quality.

I wouldn't want to play against that, their turn might take 3 hours!

Attention internet: MEGAPIE GUARD will be the new ultracompetitive Guard build, just you watch

How about as many mortar squads as you can fit in a guard army? Stick them behind a massive line of lasguns and no infantry is getting anywhere near you. Would need to add some kind of anti-tank support though.

No army can out shoot guard simply because that is all they are designed to do. Apart from one or two token assault specialists, such as ogryns, every unit deals damage from shooting. That means they are not using up any points on h2h ability like marines are. Add to that the massive amount of ordnance, artillery and orders to improve shooting and they are clearly the best shooty army.

I must say that it can be fun when you charge with bayonets though.

striderx wrote:

Dracos wrote:Yeah you are really good at making illegal lists, way to go. Or did you miss the part where SW can only take 1 Typhoon per squadron? I forgot about that until someone else pointed it out.

1) Before you accuse someone of making illegal list, please use the search function and refer to a thread in YMTC about this single typhoon dispute.
2) Dropping 3 Landspeeder only gives me enough points to purchase 3 more razorbacks, which means 3 more lasc and 3 more plasma gun. And net me an extra 45 points (on top of the 90 I already have).

So it's either I trumped you at 2k points, or I trump you to a greater extend at 1750. Way to go.

You are trumping me? ....

Get a grip. The issue was if they are comparable. They bring similar amounts of firepower, making them comparable. This isn't about how big your epeen is.

odorofdeath wrote:Attention internet: MEGAPIE GUARD will be the new ultracompetitive Guard build, just you watch

Damn, you beat me to it!

Trickstick wrote:No army can out shoot guard simply because that is all they are designed to do. Apart from one or two token assault specialists, such as ogryns, every unit deals damage from shooting.

Not true.

What's most woeful to me is that so many people think that the guard are best at shooting, simply because they're guard, who are ALWAYS best at shooting, end of.

It's just a stereotype, people, and a rather old one at that.

The reason nobody has tried a list like my ML spam:

You'll need nearly 20 HW squad boxes, 6 infantry squad boxes, and 4 command squad boxes to build it, at the least. I suppose that isn't that bad compared to, say, aircav, or heavy armor lists, but that is still $700 + 150 + 100 = $1000 dollars worth of guardsmen at MSRP. I'm sure if you cruised e-buy and other such internet auctioneers you could get a force like this for cheaper, but that is still a hefty whack to the pocketbook. Its easier to buy a couple of vet squads and stick them in chimeras.

For example, 4 vet squads, + meltaguns, + chimeras retails for just under 400 bucks. A lot cheaper, and your turn doesn't take 2 hours!


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Ailaros wrote:

Trickstick wrote:No army can out shoot guard simply because that is all they are designed to do. Apart from one or two token assault specialists, such as ogryns, every unit deals damage from shooting.

Not true.

What's most woeful to me is that so many people think that the guard are best at shooting, simply because they're guard, who are ALWAYS best at shooting, end of.

It's just a stereotype, people, and a rather old one at that.

Mind summarizing the point made with the link? I can't sift through all those bat reps at the moment! (Nice job by the way!)

Ailaros makes a great point - though I think his success is more to what he brings to the table rather than his list.

FoxPheonix - that list is awesome!

Dracos wrote:You are trumping me? ....

Anytime.

Dracos wrote:Get a grip. The issue was if they are comparable. They bring similar amounts of firepower, making them comparable. This isn't about how big your epeen is.

My definition of comparable tells me that wasnt even comparable.
Unless you define the word differently, then explain yourself.

To bad that much Missile Launchers is really expensive. That list would be pretty sweet, especially if you could get Creed in.

Well, 45 lootas, 9 Kannons, and 9 Warbuggies is pretty good. You can use Wazzdakka to take Bikers as Troops. Dakkaguns are Str 5 and Twin Linked, so thats a huge amount of Dakka. Maybe not the shootiest list ever, but the shootiest Orks can do.

The best I can get is 18 rokkits, 45 Lootas (45-135 AC Shots) and 63 Dakkagun Shots.

But Nids are good too. 9 Hive Guard and 3 Tyrannofexen is pretty good.

Mike Noble wrote:To bad that much Missile Launchers is really expensive. That list would be pretty sweet, especially if you could get Creed in.

Well, 45 lootas, 9 Kannons, and 9 Warbuggies is pretty good. You can use Wazzdakka to take Bikers as Troops. Dakkaguns are Str 5 and Twin Linked, so thats a huge amount of Dakka. Maybe not the shootiest list ever, but the shootiest Orks can do.

The best I can get is 18 rokkits, 45 Lootas (45-135 AC Shots) and 63 Dakkagun Shots.

But Nids are good too. 9 Hive Guard and 3 Tyrannofexen is pretty good.

Orks can almost be the shootiest if you limit it to 1k points. But their shooting efficiency just reduces when you start to fill up the Lootas slots and Kannons slots.

Basically he does very well with a Foot guard list: several power blobs, Al'rahem, and a light dose of HWTs or artillery. Nice site btw Ailaros!

striderx wrote:

Dracos wrote:You are trumping me? ....

Anytime.

Wow, getting a little personal on this, aren't you?

Here are 3 threads from YMDC about how SW can only take 1 Typhoon speeder per squadron.

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/292840.page#1541839

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/317027.page#1930480

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/330196.page#2162344

So yes, your list is illegal. Maybe your definition of "a" is different than mine [as in "a Land Speeder may be upgraded"], but to me (and anyone fluent in English) "a" means one.

striderx wrote:

Dracos wrote:Get a grip. The issue was if they are comparable. They bring similar amounts of firepower, making them comparable. This isn't about how big your epeen is.

My definition of comparable tells me that wasnt even comparable.
Unless you define the word differently, then explain yourself.

You are right, they are not comparable. My list was legal and the one you wrote is not. My apologies.

FoxPhoenix135 wrote:Mind summarizing the point made with the link? I can't sift through all those bat reps at the moment! (Nice job by the way!)

Thanks!

So, my army revolves around getting as much into close combat as I possibly can. Power weapons, meltabombs, priests, and ogryn are all staple diet for my lists. As mentioned, there's usually some support sprinkled on in various forms, depending on what I need, but the core of the army is a massed bayonette charge. It's been going pretty well, and I even tied for first in a local tournament last saturday.

If you don't want to read them all, I'll direct you to this game, and this game, which show off the strengths of assault guard against two tough army types while said tournament even sees me beat off a slugga boyz green tide with little more than regular guardsmen.

Back to the OP, I think that more nuance may be required for all of this. As mentioned, guard can throw out an enormous number of templates, and it can also field a lot of special weapons and lasgun shots. This obviously makes them a pretty shooty army (which is why I voted for them, actually).

The guard are not, however, the universally best shooty army. Other armies are competitive, and can even beat guard in various classes of shooting (except for number of templates put down). What makes guard good is that while they have one unique type of great shooting, the things that they don't specialize in, they're still pretty good at. There isn't a lot that CAN'T be taken down by guard shooting, should the guard commander attempt to eschew close combat as much as possible.

No, the guard will never have as good of long-range anti-tank as Tau, but their anti-light infantry is better (due to quantity), as is their anti-transport, and anti-MEq. Likewise, guard commanders can't match loota spam as far as dakka per point, but the guard has meltaguns, lascannons, and heavy artillery, while the ork player is forced to bounce lolrokkits off of stuff.

Really, it's how well-rounded guard shooting is as a whole that makes it good, not the quality of any particular class of shooting.

I have to agree with Ailaros on this... We play our Guard armies a bit differently, I tend more to the "We bring lots of heavy weapons and shoot things", but most of my lads are also kitted out with PW SGTs and the like for the inevitable HtH... I do think the IG can throw out the most firepower, though it does rely on squadrons, fragile weapons teams and can be countered...

Ailaros wrote:

FoxPhoenix135 wrote:Mind summarizing the point made with the link? I can't sift through all those bat reps at the moment! (Nice job by the way!)

Thanks!

So, my army revolves around getting as much into close combat as I possibly can. Power weapons, meltabombs, priests, and ogryn are all staple diet for my lists. As mentioned, there's usually some support sprinkled on in various forms, depending on what I need, but the core of the army is a massed bayonette charge. It's been going pretty well, and I even tied for first in a local tournament last saturday.

If you don't want to read them all, I'll direct you to this game, and this game, which show off the strengths of assault guard against two tough army types while said tournament even sees me beat off a slugga boyz green tide with little more than regular guardsmen.

Back to the OP, I think that more nuance may be required for all of this. As mentioned, guard can throw out an enormous number of templates, and it can also field a lot of special weapons and lasgun shots. This obviously makes them a pretty shooty army (which is why I voted for them, actually).

The guard are not, however, the universally best shooty army. Other armies are competitive, and can even beat guard in various classes of shooting (except for number of templates put down). What makes guard good is that while they have one unique type of great shooting, the things that they don't specialize in, they're still pretty good at. There isn't a lot that CAN'T be taken down by guard shooting, should the guard commander attempt to eschew close combat as much as possible.

No, the guard will never have as good of long-range anti-tank as Tau, but their anti-light infantry is better (due to quantity), as is their anti-transport, and anti-MEq. Likewise, guard commanders can't match loota spam as far as dakka per point, but the guard has meltaguns, lascannons, and heavy artillery, while the ork player is forced to bounce lolrokkits off of stuff.

Really, it's how well-rounded guard shooting is as a whole that makes it good, not the quality of any particular class of shooting.

Ha, lolrokkits

lolrokkits and roflkopters, thats what Orks are all about

odorofdeath wrote:lolrokkits and roflkopters, thats what Orks are all about

And LOTS OF DAKKA!!!!!

So

With Tau, Its quality, not quantity.

With Orks, its quantity, not quality.

With Guard, its a balance?

Sounds reasonable.

That's probably the best analogy yet, Mike.

I know this isn't exactly on topic, but after seeing Ailaros's list on his blog, I made a list that is mainly CC with Guard.

Command Squad-Creed,Vox Caster
Lord Commisar-PW,Carapace Armor

6 Ogryns

Infantry Platoon:
PCS
5 Infantry Squads each w/ a Meltagun, PW, meltabomb
Priest w/ Eviscerator
Commisar w/PW

3 Autocannons
3 Autocannons
3 Autocannons
3 Autocannons

Infantry Platoon:
PCS
5 Infantry Squads each w/ a Meltagun, PW, meltabomb
Priest w/ Eviscerator
Commisar w/PW

3 Autocannons
3 Autocannons
3 Autocannons


Thats it I think. 2k points, but my costs may be off. Well, you have the two super blobs of Guardsmen that will wreck anything on the charge, Creed to let one outflank, and of course give them Furious Charge to be even better.

It also has tons of autocannons. 21 of them, which is still very nice firepower. 52 AC shots isn't as good as 52 Missiles, but don't forget the 5 Meltaguns in each platoon as well for anti tank. I think this list could be very potent as far as Foot Guard goes, and with mass mech being the trend, its fun to break the mold and still be able to win.

That looks a powerful good list sir! Definitely against the grain their lul

Dracos wrote:
Wow, getting a little personal on this, aren't you?

You wanted to take my word out of context, so you deserved it. But either way you look at it, I can do that (I mean trump you).

Dracos wrote:Here are 3 threads from YMDC about how SW can only take 1 Typhoon speeder per squadron.

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/292840.page#1541839

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/317027.page#1930480

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/330196.page#2162344

The threads are contentious. Selectively choosing one side of the argument doesn't make you RIGHT.

And just in case you opponent happens to be in a good mood and decides to go along with your interpretation of the rules, he (as I have mentioned) could easily replace that 3 landspeeder with 3 razorbacks and net himself a 45 points (reiterating this because you seem to perform selective reading).

Dracos wrote:
You are right, they are not comparable. My list was legal and the one you wrote is not.

They are not comparable because of the amount of heavy weapons you are bringing to the table (oh, I m putting this clear in words to assist you just in case you find it hard to follow ).

Dracos wrote:My apologies.

I could accept that.

Geez guys. Be cool, lets all be cool.

Lol striderx, you are a riot. Why do you have to keep making this personal by saying that you "trump" me? This is not about you and I, its about the armies. At least try to pretend like you are being objective.

Those threads are not contentious at all. They are short because the wording is pretty clear, a speeder may upgrade to a typhoon. Not "any", but "a". A = one. Only 1 per squadron.

So dropping 3 speeders for 3 razorbacks gets you 3 more lascannons.

So then we have your list with 10 more missiles in exchange for 3 heavy bolters, 3 autocannons,3 lascannons and a conversion beamer. That sounds pretty comparable to me. Not identical, but comparable (meaning similar amounts of total firepower).

Dracos wrote:Lol striderx, you are a riot. Why do you have to keep making this personal by saying that you "trump" me? This is not about you and I, its about the armies. At least try to pretend like you are being objective.

You chose to interpret in a way that is consistent with your sense of inferiority. So, you deserved it. Not that I influenced it in any way.

Dracos wrote:Those threads are not contentious at all. They are short because the wording is pretty clear, a speeder may upgrade to a typhoon. Not "any", but "a". A = one. Only 1 per squadron.

Just because you claim it's not contentious doesnt mean it isnt. But good try.

Dracos wrote:So dropping 3 speeders for 3 razorbacks gets you 3 more lascannons.

And 3 Plasma, which anyway I look at it, is better than Heavy Bolter.

Dracos wrote:So then we have your list with 10 more missiles in exchange for 3 heavy bolters, 3 autocannons,3 lascannons and a conversion beamer. That sounds pretty comparable to me. Not identical, but comparable (meaning similar amounts of total firepower).

And since you insist, I can make it clear (with a bit of change to interpret the codex the way you want)

HQ Rune Priest (Living Lightning) - which I think is better than a conversion beamer
Elite Dakka dread 2x Twinlinked autocannons
Elite Dakka dread 2x Twinlinked autocannons
Elite Dakka dread 2x Twinlinked autocannons
Troop 5x Grey Hunter Flamer, Las/tl plas razorback
Troop 5x Grey Hunter Flamer, Las/tl plas razorback
Troop 5x Grey Hunter Flamer, Las/tl plas razorback
Troop 5x Grey Hunter Flamer, Las/tl plas razorback
Fast 1x Typhoon 2x Missile Launcher
Fast 1x Typhoon 2x Missile Launcher
Fast 1x Typhoon 2x Missile Launcher
Heavy 6x Long Fangs 5x Lasc Las/tl plas razorback
Heavy 6x Long Fangs 5x Lasc
Heavy 6x Long Fangs 5x Lasc
6 AC, 20 Lasc, 6 ML.

I don't know how is your 9 AC, 10 Las, 10 ML even comparable. Unless you stubbornly think 4 ML and 3 AC has the same attrition value of 10 Lasc.

@all: Keep it polite please. Review Rule Number One via the link in my sig if necessary. Otherwise, get up from your computer and grab some fresh air.

Humm Striderx, when I add up your list it comes out to 2065

HQ Rune Priest (Living Lightning) 100
Elite Dakka dread 2x Twinlinked autocannons 125
Elite Dakka dread 2x Twinlinked autocannons 125
Elite Dakka dread 2x Twinlinked autocannons 125
Troop 5x Grey Hunter Flamer, Las/tl plas razorback 150
Troop 5x Grey Hunter Flamer, Las/tl plas razorback 150
Troop 5x Grey Hunter Flamer, Las/tl plas razorback 150
Troop 5x Grey Hunter Flamer, Las/tl plas razorback 150
Fast 1x Typhoon 2x Missile Launcher 90
Fast 1x Typhoon 2x Missile Launcher 90
Fast 1x Typhoon 2x Missile Launcher 90
Heavy 6x Long Fangs 5x Lasc Las/tl plas razorback 290
Heavy 6x Long Fangs 5x Lasc 215
Heavy 6x Long Fangs 5x Lasc 215

=
HQ 100
E:375
T:600
FA:270
HS 720
Total 2065

Feel free to ignore the Razorback in the Heavy support choice then. Which then gives me 10 pts to float around.
After this, tell me 3 AC + 4 ML has comparable attrition value to 9 Lasc (in terms of point cost alone, 1 Lasc is ABOUT double the cost of a ML). Then I ll go sleep.


Also, reduce our list to 1750 or 1500, and you ll see the gap increasing even wider. Nice try

Okay then we are left with 9 LC +2 PG+ LL vs 4 ML+3 AC+2 HB+ Conversion beamer.

Remember this is just the difference, not counting the 6 TL AC and 4 LC/TL PG they have in common.

And you don't think that's even comparable? We will then have to agree to disagree.

You both are silly, because neither compares to the sheer massed firepower of the guard!

Yep, I'm in total agreement! IG wins anyways, so really the SW v SM conversation is not very important. While SW does win out that battle, the margin that SW is better is not that large.

IG is better than both by a long shot.

I made a punny.

FoxPhoenix135 wrote:Allow my rebuttal to the SM spam lists out there:

2000 Pts - 5th Edition Roster - ML spam

HQ: Company Command Squad (5#, 65 pts)
4 Company Command Squad @ 50 pts w/ ML @+15
1 Company Commander

Troops: Infantry Platoon (40#, 625 pts)
1 Infantry Platoon @ 625 pts
2 Platoon Command Squad
1 Heavy Weapons Team (Missile Launcher)
1 Platoon Commander
7 Infantry Squad
1 Heavy Weapons Team (Missile Launcher)
1 Sergeant
7 Infantry Squad
1 Heavy Weapons Team (Missile Launcher)
1 Sergeant
3 Heavy Weapons Squad (Missile Launcher x3)
3 Heavy Weapons Squad (Missile Launcher x3)
3 Heavy Weapons Squad (Missile Launcher x3)
3 Heavy Weapons Squad (Missile Launcher x3)
3 Heavy Weapons Squad (Missile Launcher x3)

Troops: Infantry Platoon (40#, 625 pts)
1 Infantry Platoon @ 625 pts
2 Platoon Command Squad
1 Heavy Weapons Team (Missile Launcher)
1 Platoon Commander
7 Infantry Squad
1 Heavy Weapons Team (Missile Launcher)
1 Sergeant
7 Infantry Squad
1 Heavy Weapons Team (Missile Launcher)
1 Sergeant
3 Heavy Weapons Squad (Missile Launcher x3)
3 Heavy Weapons Squad (Missile Launcher x3)
3 Heavy Weapons Squad (Missile Launcher x3)
3 Heavy Weapons Squad (Missile Launcher x3)
3 Heavy Weapons Squad (Missile Launcher x3)

Troops: Infantry Platoon (37#, 535 pts)
1 Infantry Platoon @ 535 pts
2 Platoon Command Squad
1 Heavy Weapons Team (Missile Launcher)
1 Platoon Commander
7 Infantry Squad
1 Heavy Weapons Team (Missile Launcher)
1 Sergeant
7 Infantry Squad
1 Heavy Weapons Team (Missile Launcher)
1 Sergeant
3 Heavy Weapons Squad (Missile Launcher x3)
3 Heavy Weapons Squad (Missile Launcher x3)
3 Heavy Weapons Squad (Missile Launcher x3)
3 Heavy Weapons Squad (Missile Launcher x3)



Total Roster Cost: 1850 out of 2000


Let's count how many MLs that is: 52 Missile launchers. I left enough points in the list you could easily swap many of those for ACs, LCs, mortars and what-have-you, or add in an ordnance battery, a master of ordnance, etc etc.

With 52 shots at 48", S8, AP 3, you are bound to do damage, even at BS 3. They still can glance AV 14, and that many glances are going to add up to some serious damage to even heavy vehicles. Can you imagine lists that utilize razorback spam? Dead. Their weak armor would shred under the barrage of missiles , especially if guard go first.

Alternatively, if you are facing a horde like other gunline IG or Orks, the MLs would then be spitting out 52 small blasts at S4 AP 5. Considering the small blast template has a diameter of 3", you could imagine the kind of coverage you would get: 28.26 inches squared times 52 to be exact, or 1469.52 inches squared assuming there are no overlaps.

In addition to the sheer amount of firepower you have if you go first, you still have massive amounts of bodies to soak up damage, give cover, etc to the ML squads. I would guess that you wouldn't loose over 1/3 of those bodies unless your opponent has a similar amount of pie-plate spam to send your way, allowing you to shoot at nearly full strength even if you shoot second in the first turn.

Anyway, so the masters of Spam appear to be the guard, as far as I can see. They have the cheap troops to stuff in the quantity, if not the quality.

Great list for the thread - wouldn't want to paint it though.

Lul, my bud actually thinks this list is bad. Some people...

Ailaros wrote:

Trickstick wrote:No army can out shoot guard simply because that is all they are designed to do. Apart from one or two token assault specialists, such as ogryns, every unit deals damage from shooting.

Not true.

What's most woeful to me is that so many people think that the guard are best at shooting, simply because they're guard, who are ALWAYS best at shooting, end of.

It's just a stereotype, people, and a rather old one at that.

Yeah i completely forgot about mass charge Guard armies, my bad. I used to like this back when every trooper could take a laspistol and ccw. I tend to close within 12" and then mass rifle fire, supported by tanks and heavy weapon squads. I still think Guard have the potential to be the best ranged army, its just for me that range is less than 6".

I am in the minority but voted for Eldar.

-Can be CC oriented but all successful Eldar revolve around survival and firepower

-Volume of accurate fire due to farseer GUIDE.

Not saying they are better but I would put them in the mix with the big three already discussed.

Eh I could see that. They are on the total extreme of "quality > quantity" spectrum, but their weapons are quite deadly.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Oh incidentally, can a CCS take more than 1 Master of Ordnance? And if so, do you get 1 shot PER MoO? i.e., 2 shots for 2 MoO, 3 for 3, so on and so forth.

Nope, only 1 of each type of advisor allowed. Or 2 bodyguards.

Trickstick wrote:Nope, only 1 of each type of advisor allowed. AND/ Or 2 bodyguards.

Fixed that for you

Darn no double Master of Ordinance shenanigans?

Only if you take 2 company command squads...

Before they FAQ'd it, you used to be able to take a Mortar as a heavy weapon in the squad, and fire it first to help "range in" the MoO's barrage, but they fixed it when it started getting abused.

Honestly while a bit unbalanced, I loved that you could use the mortar to "range in" the artillery. As a real-world mortar infantryman, we did this sort of thing quite often. We'd use a lower-power round such as a non-explosive to range in the coordinates for heavier weaponry.

I didnt see anything in the FAQ about not being able to take >1 MoO. All it talks about regarding him is no longer being able to utilize the multiple barrage rules as you said... sigh. Lame. time to alter the list LOL.

That's because its not in the FAQ... it is in the codex:

"The squad may be joined by any of the following:
- ONE Astropath
- ONE Master of Ordnance
- ONE Officer of the Fleet
- UP TO TWO Bodyguards"

Page 90, IG codex

FoxPhoenix135 wrote:Only if you take 2 company command squads...

Before they FAQ'd it, you used to be able to take a Mortar as a heavy weapon in the squad, and fire it first to help "range in" the MoO's barrage, but they fixed it when it started getting abused.

Honestly while a bit unbalanced, I loved that you could use the mortar to "range in" the artillery. As a real-world mortar infantryman, we did this sort of thing quite often. We'd use a lower-power round such as a non-explosive to range in the coordinates for heavier weaponry.

Ack, not that again! Anyone who used that should be burned as a heretic. Seemed like one of those things that even the person using it knew it was wrong. Ah well, at least it's behind us now.

How does using a mortar to range artillery work? Surely as they are in different places the ballistics would be quite different? Or do you use the mortar to find the range to target and then call in the firepower?

Well I'll explain it the best as I understand it (I only dropped the rounds in the tube and adjusted the mortar to the settings relayed to me by the Fire Control team, so I only have a basic grasp):

All modern artillery is based on information relative to a map grid of the region. The military coordinate system is comprised of a letter code, and a series of digits. The more digits in a string, the more precise the location is. For example, grid location Alpha-Bravo-1-2-3-4 is not as accurate a coordinate as Alpha-Bravo-1-2-3-4-5-6.

Sometimes coordinates come in that are not as accurate, such as using a 6-digit code instead of an 8-digit, so they use nearby mortars to "test fire" the coordinates with non-lethal ammunition to reduce collateral damage. Forward observers on the ground relay adjustments back to the fire-control team based on what they see, which allow the heavy guns to target a more specific set of coordinates. This greatly increases the accuracy of the heavier guns, as well as reduces the chance of unacceptable civilian damages.

Yeah I had a major brain fart.... still for 30 points hes not a bad deal.

I see, that makes sense. Cheers!

FoxPhoenix135 wrote:That's because its not in the FAQ... it is in the codex:

"The squad may be joined by any of the following:
- ONE Astropath
- ONE Master of Ordnance
- ONE Officer of the Fleet
- UP TO TWO Bodyguards"

Page 90, IG codex

Yes, each SQUAD may be joined by any of the following, not each ARMY. You can still field multiple advisers if you bring multiple command squads.

Which if that's what was trying to be done, that's just silly.

Yes, we're going to put the ultra-wrecker MoO of doom squad in a convenient T3 low-number package. Sounds like a great recipe for a lot of points flushed down the tube.

Dracos wrote:Okay then we are left with 9 LC +2 PG+ LL vs 4 ML+3 AC+2 HB+ Conversion beamer.

Remember this is just the difference, not counting the 6 TL AC and 4 LC/TL PG they have in common.

And you don't think that's even comparable? We will then have to agree to disagree.

9 LC comparable to 3 AC & 4 ML???

Attrition Value : Using AV12 as a guide, 9 LC scores 6 hits, 3 pens. 3 AC & 4 ML scores 4 hits & 2.66 hits, and total of 1.5 pens. That alone accounts for 1.5 AV12 worth of difference.
Against AV13 : 3 AC - can't penetrate.
Against AV14 : 3 AC & 4 ML can't penetrate.
Against infantry, that's 9 armor ignoring shots against 10 non armor ignoring shots (6 of which can't even instant kill T4s and negate FNPs).

There is a reason why LC cost twice as much as ML.

Point Value : 9 LC is equivalent to the cost of 18 ML. So that's like 18 ML against 3 AC & 4 ML.

Comparable? I think my wealth is comparable to Warren Buffett's as well

DAaddict wrote:I am in the minority but voted for Eldar.

I would vote for Eldar too, but in Apocalypse.

Firepower is useless if it:

- Is out of range
- Is out of line of sight
- Locked in combat
- Pinned
- Stunned/Shaken
- In cover

Firepower needs to be adjusted for reliability, for example. Twenty one Space Marine Missile Launchers, it seems, are better than Thirty Imperial Guard Missile Launchers, when firing Krak Missiles at Rhinos.

Range puts a hard and fast limit on what can be hurt. Same with being locked in combat, or otherwise unable to shoot. An army in cover should receive about 1/2 the damage of an army without cover, for example.

The best shooty army isn't the one with the most guns, it's the one that can use them most effectively, and that is clearly the Tau.

Nurglitch wrote:
The best shooty army isn't the one with the most guns, it's the one that can use them most effectively, and that is clearly the Tau.

You forgot to contribute to this thread : - http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/331539.page

Do it now.

Ailaros wrote:

Yes, each SQUAD may be joined by any of the following, not each ARMY. You can still field multiple advisers if you bring multiple command squads.

Which if that's what was trying to be done, that's just silly.

Yes, we're going to put the ultra-wrecker MoO of doom squad in a convenient T3 low-number package. Sounds like a great recipe for a lot of points flushed down the tube.

I always have at least one MoO, sometimes two just for fun, and it is a rare game that they don't earn their points. Heck, even a round that misses and takes out a rhino has earned it's points. And with BiD, you have a good chance of hitting something, and if they are spread out enough to make it hard for you to hit with the scatter, you can just concentrate your forces and roll them up.

Even against SM in cover, I'd rather them have to take 4+ then 3+, and a stray shot against a rhino or chimera is almost sure to penetrate it. And if your really worried about survivability, throw them in cover.

Nurglitch wrote:Firepower is useless if it:

- Is out of range
- Is out of line of sight
- Locked in combat
- Pinned
- Stunned/Shaken
- In cover

Firepower needs to be adjusted for reliability, for example. Twenty one Space Marine Missile Launchers, it seems, are better than Thirty Imperial Guard Missile Launchers, when firing Krak Missiles at Rhinos.

Range puts a hard and fast limit on what can be hurt. Same with being locked in combat, or otherwise unable to shoot. An army in cover should receive about 1/2 the damage of an army without cover, for example.

The best shooty army isn't the one with the most guns, it's the one that can use them most effectively, and that is clearly the Tau.

Thank you! You are the first one to offer up the amazingness that is the Markerlight. Markerlights are so versatile, that they can solve almost all of the problems that the tau have. Reduce enemy cover, boost ballistic skill, reduce enemy leadership, eliminate night fighting (ok not that big, but it has its uses), and guiding in seeker missiles.

I honestly feel that the markerlight makes tau shooting equal to IG shooting. Not better, just equal.

PraetorDave wrote:Thank you! You are the first one to offer up the amazingness that is the Markerlight. Markerlights are so versatile, that they can solve almost all of the problems that the tau have. Reduce enemy cover, boost ballistic skill, reduce enemy leadership, eliminate night fighting (ok not that big, but it has its uses), and guiding in seeker missiles.

I honestly feel that the markerlight makes tau shooting equal to IG shooting. Not better, just equal.

Actually not entirely true, only to a certain extent :-). PathFinders too, faces the problem of
- Is out of range
- Is out of line of sight
- Locked in combat
- Pinned
and they're static.

Definitely Guard. Space Wolves are a close second.

Surprisingly though, Orks are high on my list. Purely for sheer volume of firepower.

S_P

Guard makes the best pie.

These polls never fail to amaze. Tau got more votes than Wolves? Tau are way down on the list of shootiest armies.

I guess if people go off of the fluff then this poll is accurate, but wolves and IG are without debate the best shooting armies (and a well built wolf list has the edge), followed by Vanilla Marines, DE and BA.

But that is from a math hammer point of view. I suppose if people are looking at it from a fluff perspective then the poll is fairly accurate.

Reecius wrote:These polls never fail to amaze. Tau got more votes than Wolves? Tau are way down on the list of shootiest armies.

I guess if people go off of the fluff then this poll is accurate, but wolves and IG are without debate the best shooting armies (and a well built wolf list has the edge), followed by Vanilla Marines, DE and BA.

But that is from a math hammer point of view. I suppose if people are looking at it from a fluff perspective then the poll is fairly accurate.

But Stelek says Tau is better than SW. And Stelek doesn't say things for fluff reasons.
And more Guns really doesn't mean more shooty.

Reecius wrote:These polls never fail to amaze. Tau got more votes than Wolves? Tau are way down on the list of shootiest armies.

I guess if people go off of the fluff then this poll is accurate, but wolves and IG are without debate the best shooting armies (and a well built wolf list has the edge), followed by Vanilla Marines, DE and BA.

But that is from a math hammer point of view. I suppose if people are looking at it from a fluff perspective then the poll is fairly accurate.

I think if you were to remove the assault phase from the game the tau would come out the winner between SW and Tau.

Blacksails wrote:Space Wolves and Tau can put out more shots than guard, but guard easily throws out the most templates of any kind. Executioners, Demolishers, Battlecannons, heavy flamers on Chimeras, all the artillery pieces, Hellhounds and their variants...hell, there's even armoured sentinels with plasma cannons if you really want.

I'm assuming you wrote this after a severe blow to the head.

NO ONE can roll more dice than IG. Period. Even in a straight up comparison of basic infantry units the IG can roll more dice. Even with no upgrades of any sort the IG squad can throw 28 dice thanks to FR-F! SR-F!. And that's for a third of the cost of 10 "naked" Grey Hunters. Add in all the ridiculous firepower of the other units (park a fully equipped Punisher and you can roll 33 dice) and you'd be lucky to have enough dice in the store to roll all the possible shots of a 2,000 point Guard army in a single throw.

Davicus wrote:But Stelek says Tau is better than SW.

so?

I didn't realize Stelek's opinions where gospel. :/

odorofdeath wrote:I didn't realize Stelek's opinions where gospel. :/

Only if your Stelek

Yes, the church of Stelek. one of the many cults to have formed around 40k.

Members must worship the Dark Apostle Stelek and hang on his every word. they must also lurk around YTTH, and any other forums, and pounce on any opposing viewpoints.

How about people ignore irrelevancies like Stelek and discuss the topic at hand?

I enjoy when Stelek says one thing than gos and plays wolves ...

Sanguinary Dan wrote:NO ONE can roll more dice than IG. Period.

Orks

Tyranids!

6 x 30 Termagaunts -Devours 1800pts

540 Devour Shots

damn son. thats quite some dakka

Lol but the army would be so bad. No Anti tank at all.

Mike Noble wrote:Lol but the army would be so bad. No Anti tank at all.

Tervigon - AG/TS/ST/Catalyst 200pts

180 Termagaunts with devours 1800pts

3 x 3 hive guard 450pts

2450pts

hey i got 50 pts spare

So should I add another 500 points to my ML Spam list above to prove IG can outshoot nids?

Nah you would probly table him with the list as-is. especially if you got first turn. byebye gribblies lol

Ok, time for a 2500 point list then... just for kicks.

I call this one, "Different Strokes for Different Folks"

2500 Pts - 5th Edition Roster - Different Strokes, Different Folks

HQ: Company Command Squad (5#, 65 pts)
2 Company Command Squad @ 65 pts
1 Veteran Heavy Weapon Team (Missile Launcher)
1 Company Commander

Troops: Infantry Platoon (40#, 715 pts)
1 Infantry Platoon @ 715 pts
2 Platoon Command Squad
1 Heavy Weapons Team (Lascannon)
1 Platoon Commander
7 Infantry Squad
1 Heavy Weapons Team (Lascannon)
1 Sergeant
7 Infantry Squad
1 Heavy Weapons Team (Lascannon)
1 Sergeant
3 Heavy Weapons Squad (Lascannon x3)
3 Heavy Weapons Squad (Lascannon x3)
3 Heavy Weapons Squad (Lascannon x3)
3 Heavy Weapons Squad (Lascannon x3)
3 Heavy Weapons Squad (Lascannon x3)

Troops: Infantry Platoon (40#, 445 pts)
1 Infantry Platoon @ 445 pts
2 Platoon Command Squad
1 Heavy Weapons Team
1 Platoon Commander
7 Infantry Squad
1 Heavy Weapons Team
1 Sergeant
7 Infantry Squad
1 Heavy Weapons Team
1 Sergeant
3 Heavy Weapons Squad (Mortar x3)
3 Heavy Weapons Squad (Mortar x3)
3 Heavy Weapons Squad (Mortar x3)
3 Heavy Weapons Squad (Mortar x3)
3 Heavy Weapons Squad (Mortar x3)

Troops: Infantry Platoon (40#, 625 pts)
1 Infantry Platoon @ 625 pts
2 Platoon Command Squad
1 Heavy Weapons Team (Missile Launcher)
1 Platoon Commander
7 Infantry Squad
1 Heavy Weapons Team (Missile Launcher)
1 Sergeant
7 Infantry Squad
1 Heavy Weapons Team (Missile Launcher)
1 Sergeant
3 Heavy Weapons Squad (Missile Launcher x3)
3 Heavy Weapons Squad (Missile Launcher x3)
3 Heavy Weapons Squad (Missile Launcher x3)
3 Heavy Weapons Squad (Missile Launcher x3)
3 Heavy Weapons Squad (Missile Launcher x3)

Troops: Infantry Platoon (40#, 535 pts)
1 Infantry Platoon @ 535 pts
2 Platoon Command Squad
1 Heavy Weapons Team (Autocannon)
1 Platoon Commander
7 Infantry Squad
1 Heavy Weapons Team (Autocannon)
1 Sergeant
7 Infantry Squad
1 Heavy Weapons Team (Autocannon)
1 Sergeant
3 Heavy Weapons Squad (Autocannon x3)
3 Heavy Weapons Squad (Autocannon x3)
3 Heavy Weapons Squad (Autocannon x3)
3 Heavy Weapons Squad (Autocannon x3)
3 Heavy Weapons Squad (Autocannon x3)


Total Roster Cost: 2385

Still leaves plenty of room for other stuff, like maybe creed and another CCS for more orders abilities.


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------


So let's count up what we have there: We have 18 of each weapon in a platoon. That comes out to

18 Lascannon Shots
36 Autocannon Shots
18 Mortar Shots
19 Missile Launcher Shots

So, considering there are no other influencing factors, mathhammer says guardsmen firing those (let's ignore orders for right now) will hit their targets 1/2 of the time (for direct fire weapons). If the guardsmen get first turn to fire (and all weapons are in range), ignoring mortars, that still comes out to:

9 S9 AP2 hits
18 S7 AP4 hits
9.5 S8 AP3 hits
A crap-ton of lasguns.

That's some firepower right there. Not a lot of units are going to be able to return that kind of fire.


------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------


Let's look at a huge missile spam list just for comparison:

2500 Pts - 5th Edition Roster - ML SPAM 2

HQ: Company Command Squad (5#, 65 pts)
2 Company Command Squad @ 65 pts
1 Veteran Heavy Weapon Team (Missile Launcher)
1 Company Commander

Troops: Infantry Platoon (40#, 625 pts)
1 Infantry Platoon @ 625 pts
2 Platoon Command Squad
1 Heavy Weapons Team (Missile Launcher)
1 Platoon Commander
7 Infantry Squad
1 Heavy Weapons Team (Missile Launcher)
1 Sergeant
7 Infantry Squad
1 Heavy Weapons Team (Missile Launcher)
1 Sergeant
3 Heavy Weapons Squad (Missile Launcher x3)
3 Heavy Weapons Squad (Missile Launcher x3)
3 Heavy Weapons Squad (Missile Launcher x3)
3 Heavy Weapons Squad (Missile Launcher x3)
3 Heavy Weapons Squad (Missile Launcher x3)

Troops: Infantry Platoon (40#, 625 pts)
1 Infantry Platoon @ 625 pts
2 Platoon Command Squad
1 Heavy Weapons Team (Missile Launcher)
1 Platoon Commander
7 Infantry Squad
1 Heavy Weapons Team (Missile Launcher)
1 Sergeant
7 Infantry Squad
1 Heavy Weapons Team (Missile Launcher)
1 Sergeant
3 Heavy Weapons Squad (Missile Launcher x3)
3 Heavy Weapons Squad (Missile Launcher x3)
3 Heavy Weapons Squad (Missile Launcher x3)
3 Heavy Weapons Squad (Missile Launcher x3)
3 Heavy Weapons Squad (Missile Launcher x3)

Troops: Infantry Platoon (40#, 625 pts)
1 Infantry Platoon @ 625 pts
2 Platoon Command Squad
1 Heavy Weapons Team (Missile Launcher)
1 Platoon Commander
7 Infantry Squad
1 Heavy Weapons Team (Missile Launcher)
1 Sergeant
7 Infantry Squad
1 Heavy Weapons Team (Missile Launcher)
1 Sergeant
3 Heavy Weapons Squad (Missile Launcher x3)
3 Heavy Weapons Squad (Missile Launcher x3)
3 Heavy Weapons Squad (Missile Launcher x3)
3 Heavy Weapons Squad (Missile Launcher x3)
3 Heavy Weapons Squad (Missile Launcher x3)

Troops: Infantry Platoon (37#, 535 pts)
1 Infantry Platoon @ 535 pts
2 Platoon Command Squad
1 Heavy Weapons Team (Missile Launcher)
1 Platoon Commander
7 Infantry Squad
1 Heavy Weapons Team (Missile Launcher)
1 Sergeant
7 Infantry Squad
1 Heavy Weapons Team (Missile Launcher)
1 Sergeant
3 Heavy Weapons Squad (Missile Launcher x3)
3 Heavy Weapons Squad (Missile Launcher x3)
3 Heavy Weapons Squad (Missile Launcher x3)
3 Heavy Weapons Squad (Missile Launcher x3)


Total Roster Cost: 2475

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Now that one is a bit more expensive, so you won't have room left over for orders. With this many MLs, though, you probably won't need orders...

That is... 70 missile launchers. Direct firing, same assumptions as above, that means a whopping 35 of them will hit. That is a lot of S8 AP3 shots. That is enough glancing hits to make mincemeat of even AV14.



Either list you use, that totally annihilates anything the tyranids can put out as far as shooting goes.

It seems like Dark Eldar can put out some really effective shooting, and could do some serious damage to that IG list in the shooting phase (not to mention being able to zerg up and CC) -

HQ

3x Haemonculus 150
3x Haemonculus 150

Troops

120 Kabalite Warriors 1080

Elites

10 Trueborn w/ haywire grenades, shardcarbine, 4x blaster
230
10 Trueborn w/ haywire grenades, shardcarbine, 4x blaster
230
10 Trueborn w/ haywire grenades, shardcarbine, 4x blaster
230

Fast Attack

Razorwing 145
Razorwing 145
Razorwing 145

Comes out to 2505, so just ditch a warrior or something.

It's a good amount of shots and the 12 razorwing templates on turn 1 would be pretty effective at clearing out blobs.

You could always play with the quantities for more dark lances or less Haemonc's for FnP and ditch the carbines if you don't plan on chasing stuff around, or swap em for scourge with haywire blasters or something, but the idea is basically swarms of dark eldar are probably some of the more potent things you can field.

I will be getting all of my lists from foxPhoenix from now on . Freakin awesome.

Slight off-topic: do you guys think Voxs are worth it? Im running a mostly infantry army with Al'rahem and Creed, so I will be using lots of orders obviously.

FoxPhoenix135 wrote:So should I add another 500 points to my ML Spam list above to prove IG can outshoot nids?

2500 pts go wild

that was more of a joke post than anything im sure IG can do better

EDIT: damn didnt see next page, plus i was going more for quantity than quality

Grey Templar wrote:Yes, the church of Stelek. one of the many cults to have formed around 40k.

Members must worship the Dark Apostle Stelek and hang on his every word. they must also lurk around YTTH, and any other forums, and pounce on any opposing viewpoints.

Maybe if you prove yourself to be better than him, I ll give your opinions some weight too.

O man! thems fightin' words!

Davicus wrote:

Grey Templar wrote:Yes, the church of Stelek. one of the many cults to have formed around 40k.

Members must worship the Dark Apostle Stelek and hang on his every word. they must also lurk around YTTH, and any other forums, and pounce on any opposing viewpoints.

Maybe if you prove yourself to be better than him, I ll give your opinions some weight too.

Oh, gag me... Why must we get into debates like this? He's just another dude playing 40k, not a prophet for pete's sake... Do you try to do the butterfly stroke like Michael Phelps every time you visit the community pool for a swim? No?

Let's keep the stelek praising/bashing to a minimum, as it has nothing to do with Imperial Superiority... er.... I mean this thread.

FoxPhoenix135 wrote: He's just another dude playing 40k, not a prophet for pete's sake... Do you try to do the butterfly stroke like Michael Phelps every time you visit the community pool for a swim? No?

Let's keep the stelek praising/bashing to a minimum, as it has nothing to do with Imperial Superiority... er.... I mean this thread.

Only that he plays it much better than you do.

Wow guy, are you hoping stelek reads this and gives you a cookie for being such a good little fan boy? It has no relevance to the thread, so stop trying to make it personal.

FoxPhoenix135 wrote:Wow guy, are you hoping stelek reads this and gives you a cookie for being such a good little fan boy? It has no relevance to the thread, so stop trying to make it personal.

So since when does speaking the fact (about him being much better than you) makes someone a fan boy?
And I think your choice of words has more intention of making it personal than I do.

So you have witnessed me play 40k? When was this? How can you state a "fact" without having the pertinent information?

FoxPhoenix135 wrote:So you have witnessed me play 40k? When was this? How can you state a "fact" without having the pertinent information?

The power of stelek compels him...

At any rate, we can obviously see that the current holder for "shootiest" army is the IG. I'm ducking out now before it gets any worse in this thread... Some people take this stuff way too personally.

Regardless of Stelek's abilities it's not the purpose of this thread. So if you two want to continue, do it with a PM or a new thread.

IG. The strength of Guard lies in it's options. It has the ability to field what it needs to field, period. Your Eldar list need reliable long-range anti-tank? Sucks. Deal with Lances or get some Fire Dragons.

From Heavy Weapons Teams, to Ordnance Barrage, to Tanks, to Transports, to Infantry, it has what firepower you need, at what range you need it.

Eldar FTW

striderx wrote:Eldar FTW

Oh, how I wish. I've fallen in love with Eldar and are trying my best with them, but I don't see any reliable way in our group other than Fire Dragons with Wave Serpents.

FoxPhoenix135 wrote:So you have witnessed me play 40k? When was this? How can you state a "fact" without having the pertinent information?

You have any placing in NovaCon? Ard Boyz? No, looks like you have nothing.

dude he peace'd out a while ago. Let it go.

a moderator wrote:Let's all calm down and stick to the topic, rather than casting aspersions at each other.

So...with the ability to put enough BS4 bright lances on the table to not care about heavy vehicle spam, and the ability to spam tons of excellent anti-infantry bs4 shooting in the form of splinter weapons, and the ability to dump 12 s6 large blasts on the first turn for very cheap via Razorwings, I would still say Dark Eldar are the best shooting army out there. A good build with them should be able to outshoot the largest variety of enemy builds without massively compromising their ability to win games.

The last bit is actually the important part, not "I can field 18.5% more missile hits/turn than you"

The problem for anyone these days is not dealing with heavy vehicle spam... the only "top tier" build with high av is BA pred/razorspam and even that is only FA 13. Everything else spams AV 10-12 armour, which makes the lance spam not as powerful. The dark eldar codex tries to use darklances/blasters to fill all anti-av roles, but its not terrible effective against multiple low AV targets given how expensive getting a darklance on the field is.

I don't think dark eldar are in contention, the IG/Tau can do way more in the shooting phase. Against those armies all DE wants to do is disable enough to allow them to get into assault. Poisoned weapons are hardly great anti-infantry, they are less effective than boltguns against T3, and equal against T4.

FoxPhoenix135 wrote:Allow my rebuttal to the SM spam lists out there:

--Spam IG ML List--

Blah Blah Blah

Let's count how many MLs that is: 52 Missile launchers. Alternatively, if you are facing a horde like other gunline IG or Orks, the MLs would then be spitting out 52 small blasts at S4 AP 5. Considering the small blast template has a diameter of 3", you could imagine the kind of coverage you would get: 28.26 inches squared times 52 to be exact, or 1469.52 inches squared assuming there are no overlaps.

Blah Blah Blah

What?!?

The area of a circle is πr^2 the radius of that blast template is 1.5" so the area of one small template is 7.06 inches squared so thats only 367 square inches about 1/10 of the board. Still a lot I know, but your calculation has almost 1/2 the board covered with templates. You seemed to have used 3" as your radius in your calculation.

I did skim through this thread assuming someone would have pick you up on this but it appears to have slip through.

No offence indented by the blah's by the way FoxPhoenix, I just needed to cut your post in length for the quote whilst still illustrating that it had a lot of content.

(edited 5 times for piss poor spelling and trying to type πr^2 with the π and superscript (I gave up on the superscript))

Oops, by Joe you are right about that. For some reason I got my diameter and radius mixed up in my calculations. Still pretty impressive area coverage though, all and all.

Dracos wrote:The problem for anyone these days is not dealing with heavy vehicle spam... the only "top tier" build with high av is BA pred/razorspam and even that is only FA 13. Everything else spams AV 10-12 armour, which makes the lance spam not as powerful. The dark eldar codex tries to use darklances/blasters to fill all anti-av roles, but its not terrible effective against multiple low AV targets given how expensive getting a darklance on the field is.

I don't think dark eldar are in contention, the IG/Tau can do way more in the shooting phase. Against those armies all DE wants to do is disable enough to allow them to get into assault. Poisoned weapons are hardly great anti-infantry, they are less effective than boltguns against T3, and equal against T4.

Against the IG or the tau DE is capable of tabling them via shooting, there's no real need to engage in CC as the primary means of dealing their casualties.

Per point (not per gun, because that doesn't really matter) splinter rifles are superior to marines carrying boltguns against anything that isn't save 5+ standing in the open. Sisters are cheap enough to contend vs low save T3 models but they lack the first turn large blast spam and can't deal with return fire as well.

Tau actually cost considerably more per model for their shooting and only really gain the ability to kill landspeeders and rhinos for it - stuff that either isn't really threatening as a whole or can easily be dealt with by the rest of the armies' AT.

The razorwing missiles alone represent an impressive amount of firepower, and dark eldar warriors are very cheap for how well they shoot.

Now without devolving into rebukes, who is Stelek?

IG is running away because that many armies who can match their firepower's quality (Eldar, Dark Eldar, SM's, Tau), lack the quantity that the Guard has. If they have quantity (i.e. Orks, Nids,) they are poor shots and lead to more misses than what is effective. The Guard are right in the sweet spot of decent BS+Lots of shots.

Stelek is a self-appointed 40k genious who often employs unconventional tactics in his list construction.

He tends to be very polarizing in his belifes and doesn't take kindly to criticism of his ideas.

you either love him or hate him.

He, on occasion, will mock other high profile 40k players and criticise their tactics if they arn't similer to his. He has, when challanged by those he has slighted, often refused to put his money where his mouth is.

is he wrong? not as a rule, very few ideas and tactics can be "wrong" about 40k, but his main fault is that he is alienating and devisive.

nothing wrong with what he says, thats perfectly fine, but he certaintly can raise some hackles.

another character similer to him is Black Bow Fly.

Thanks Grey, appreciate it.

Maybe it's just me... But when I hear "shootiest", I don't limit that to vehicles and HWs.... Vital, yes, but "shooty" typically means lots and losta dakka. And that is just what The Hammer of the Emperor does best.

Based purely on shooting and being able to support each other I would go with either a mech BA list, or an all infantry BA list. It would look something like this.

HQ-
Librarian w/ combi-plasma, shield, blood lance 110 pts

Elts-
4 priest w/ combi-plasmas 240 pts

Trps-
10 Marines w/ combi-plasma, plasma gun, lascannon 200 pts
10 Marines w/ combi-plasma, plasma gun, lascannon 200 pts
10 Marines w/ combi-plasma, plasma gun, lascannon 200 pts
10 Marines w/ combi-plasma, plasma gun, lascannon 200 pts
10 Marines w/ combi-plasma, plasma gun, lascannon 200 pts

Hvy-
10 Devastators w/ 4 heavy bolters 210 pts
10 Devastators w/ 4 missile launchers 210 pts
10 Devastators w/ 4 plasma cannons 230 pts


So that would be 8 squads firing a turn, 4 twelve inch FNP bubles, 1 psychic defense, good quality shooting with great survivability. It only has 17 heavy weapons, 5 plasma guns, 10 combi plasma. Also has something for every army. So BA get my vote.


P.S. The cost of 9 hydras is 675 pts

It would be nice to say Tau...but oh how outdated they are

Do you guys think when tau get a new codex (after hell freezes over of course) they will be BS4? Because other armies have higher BS, and they are not purely shooting armies.

Dracos wrote:

edit: Just out of curiosity, how many points is the 9 hydras?

around 675 points

Even if they don't, I expect that their basic cost will go down, which is what they really need.

PraetorDave wrote:Do you guys think when tau get a new codex (after hell freezes over of course) they will be BS4? Because other armies have higher BS, and they are not purely shooting armies.

I doubt it; i imagine streamlining markerlights would be more in order

Odds are the Tau can take out two tanks per turn. I have never seen many other forces do that. Not even IG.

I play at my a shop out in Baton Rouge, LA(Little Wars) The IG players there *COWER* away when ever I field my tau army. and I quote "I am tired of being tabled by you in the first round"

Yea, IG is the best!

poontangler wrote:Odds are the Tau can take out two tanks per turn. I have never seen many other forces do that. Not even IG.

I play at my a shop out in Baton Rouge, LA(Little Wars) The IG players there *COWER* away when ever I field my tau army. and I quote "I am tired of being tabled by you in the first round"

Yea, IG is the best!




I doubt it; i imagine streamlining markerlights would be more in order

What do you mean stream lining marker lights? Marker-lights are awesome.

Must have never played against a Leafblower list before...

poontangler wrote:Odds are the Tau can take out two tanks per turn. I have never seen many other forces do that. Not even IG.

Two tanks, that's it? Don't get me wrong, I think Tau are a close second too (when played well, which is another matter in itself). But if you think destroying 2 tanks a turn is special you haven't seen anything. This, of course, is heavily dependent on the point value of the game in question. I'm curious as to what you mean "2 tanks a turn"... what certainty does you army have of accomplishing this? What armour value are you using to qualify a vehicle as a tank, if any?

WOW orks are #3!!

2000 Point games facing mech guard lists

I'm with Dracos, even being able to claim something like 90% certainty of downing two av13 - 14 vehicles only represents a fraction of the capability of the lists people are throwing around in this thread.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
And nobody has really defined "Best" yet. The various Marine lists are arguably some of the best at the best at shooting, taking a round of shots, and then being able to shoot BACK, or absorbing an alpha strike, while some of the more spammy lists like IG and DE can field more templates and guns, and Tau fall in the middle of the two camps.

In the end it all comes down to dice rolls and control, the Tau can do that.

And IG leafblower lists will "control" tau.

Cool story bro!


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Actually I have squared off against a "leaf blower"

I think the guy who came up with the list even stated a good bit of it had to do with luck.

FoxPhoenix135 wrote:And IG leafblower lists will "control" tau.

Indeed. Start 2nd against the 2k Tau and I shall see you blow leaves for the rest of the game.

PraetorDave wrote:Do you guys think when tau get a new codex (after hell freezes over of course) they will be BS4? Because other armies have higher BS, and they are not purely shooting armies.

unlikely imo.... once gw publishes stats for a weapon or unit they are usually pretty reluctant to change them. it happens..... but not often. I think you're more likely to see improved marker light rules that will have the effect of improving the accuracy of the average tau fire warrior. for instance twin linking a squad instead of the current improve bs by 1. The other thing that I think is likely is some new units with improved ballistic skill. So tau armies as a general rule I think will become better shots, but fire warriors will stay bs3. if I had to guess. which I dont. but am doing regardless. right.

Davicus wrote:

FoxPhoenix135 wrote:And IG leafblower lists will "control" tau.

Indeed. Start 2nd against the 2k Tau and I shall see you blow leaves for the rest of the game.

So you're saying it's luck (of who gets the first turn) that would decide this matchup? Aside from meaningless innuendo, what kind of numbers can you throw up to support this assertion? And "just because stelek said it works" is not good enough. Supporting tactics summary? Anything of INTELLECTUAL value at all?

On the leafblower list: Darkwynn (attributed father of the list as we know it) has called it a monster gone out of control, as every major competitive tournament has had at least one or more of these lists in recent times. Go look through some back threads at Bell of Lost Souls and see what I mean. Granted it's not the list-to-end-all-lists, but it is a prime example of the kind of rediculous firepower the guard can UTILIZE. Other armies can match in quantity, or in quality, but I have yet to see an army blend the two together like the IG.

Hold on.

Tau Fire warriors(With the exception of the Honor Guard) WILL never have a bs of four. A BS of four denotes super human precision and skill, a BS of 3 is the skills of a well trained soldier.


But I agree with the statement that the IG blend Quality and Quantity. I am also not gonna pretend they suck, because the IG do not. But I wont lie to my self and pretend that I have never faced a leaf blower and held my own. I Have faced almost every army GW has(except Dark Eldar) with my tau, I have gotten whooped, and have crushed them.

2x HT with Devs = 12 shots str 6
3x3 HG = 18 shots str 8
6x30 Devilgants = 540 shots str 4
3x3 Devilfexs = 54 shots str 6

Not saying Tyranid are superior in shots. Just that it's a lot of shots No one would ever make a list or have the points to be able to do this...or do they? /joke/

Edit: Just calculted the Devilgants. To have that many you would need 6x30x10 = 1,800 points. ROFL

syypher wrote:2x HT with Devs = 12 shots str 6
3x3 HG = 18 shots str 8
6x30 Devilgants = 540 shots str 4
3x3 Devilfexs = 54 shots str 6

Not saying Tyranid are superior in shots. Just that it's a lot of shots No one would ever make a list or have the points to be able to do this...or do they? /joke/

Edit: Just calculted the Devilgants. To have that many you would need 6x30x10 = 1,800 points. ROFL

already brought up Devilgants XP didnt mention devilfexes or hive tyrants (cant remember if i said anything about hive guard)

I would have imagined orks second on the list, not Tau.

IG are obviously the best, but a ork shooty army could outdo Tau with shear number of shots.

For 10 firewarriors at 100 pts, you get 10 shots.
You can get 17 shoota boys for that, and you get 34 shots.

mathhammering everything...

If Tau shoot first, orks still win the firefight. If orks go first... they still win. *surprise*

And don't even mention the assault... anyways, when the pulse rifles are finally in rapid fire range, the orks can just wag and assault anyways, so Tau can't use their rapid fire weapons effectively...

FoxPhoenix135 wrote:So you're saying it's luck (of who gets the first turn) that would decide this matchup? Aside from meaningless innuendo, what kind of numbers can you throw up to support this assertion? And "just because stelek said it works" is not good enough. Supporting tactics summary? Anything of INTELLECTUAL value at all?

On the leafblower list: Darkwynn (attributed father of the list as we know it) has called it a monster gone out of control, as every major competitive tournament has had at least one or more of these lists in recent times. Go look through some back threads at Bell of Lost Souls and see what I mean. Granted it's not the list-to-end-all-lists, but it is a prime example of the kind of rediculous firepower the guard can UTILIZE. Other armies can match in quantity, or in quality, but I have yet to see an army blend the two together like the IG.

And go look through how many have failed terribly at the list, not just the successful examples. Oh, I forgot you don't attend large events...

Yet more innuendo and no contributory information. Surprising...

FoxPhoenix135 wrote:Yet more innuendo and no contributory information. Surprising...

You mean like the one I just quoted.

So let's look at some numbers, shall we?

As of this post:

257 people voted IG as the best shooting army, or roughly 52 percent of voters.

105 people voted for tau, or roughly 21 percent.

495 people voted. That means that 390 people DIDNT vote for Tau. Do you think each of those 390 people are stupider than you for not voting Tau just because Stelek Almighty said to?

So is anyone going to get into a real discussion about all of the things relevant to shooting other than how many heavy weapons you can buy or are you two just going to hop in here every 15 hours or so and have a stupid back-and-forth about some pseudo famous 40k tournament guy that isn't even taking part in this thread?

FoxPhoenix135 wrote:So let's look at some numbers, shall we?

As of this post:

257 people voted IG as the best shooting army, or roughly 52 percent of voters.

105 people voted for tau, or roughly 21 percent.

495 people voted. That means that 390 people DIDNT vote for Tau. Do you think each of those 390 people are stupider than you for not voting Tau just because Stelek Almighty said to?

1) More people voting for it = THE FACT? Seriously are you naive or what?
So the result is Tau 2nd, Orks following closely behind as 3rd. Brilliant, my orks can shoot better than Space Marines or SWs.
2) You could previously vote for something more than once (ah yes, I know you aren't smart enough to realize that, just telling you). I voted 5 times for orks just for fun.

MikeMcSomething wrote:So is anyone going to get into a real discussion about all of the things relevant to shooting other than how many heavy weapons you can buy or are you two just going to hop in here every 15 hours or so and have a stupid back-and-forth about some pseudo famous 40k tournament guy that isn't even taking part in this thread?

I told him a fact about how many leaf blowing lists failed at event, he chose to bring up something irrelevant.

Go ahead and insult my intelligence, as if it will give your claims any merit.

FoxPhoenix135 wrote:Go ahead and insult my intelligence, as if it will give your claims any merit.

Instead of trying to act like the victim, why not try harder to make your points logical and more convincing.

Going by your logic, IG will be 1st, Tau 2nd (which everyone claims to be much lower than that), and Orks 3rd . Tell me this is correct

If you want to prove your point, you ve got to make sense.

poontangler wrote:Hold on.

Tau Fire warriors(With the exception of the Honor Guard) WILL never have a bs of four. A BS of four denotes super human precision and skill, a BS of 3 is the skills of a well trained soldier.


But I agree with the statement that the IG blend Quality and Quantity. I am also not gonna pretend they suck, because the IG do not. But I wont lie to my self and pretend that I have never faced a leaf blower and held my own. I Have faced almost every army GW has(except Dark Eldar) with my tau, I have gotten whooped, and have crushed them.

HAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHA

So gretchin are well trained soldiers?

Davicus wrote:

FoxPhoenix135 wrote:Go ahead and insult my intelligence, as if it will give your claims any merit.

Instead of trying to act like the victim, why not try harder to make your points logical and more convincing.

Going by your logic, IG will be 1st, Tau 2nd (which everyone claims to be much lower than that), and Orks 3rd . Tell me this is correct

If you want to prove your point, you ve got to make sense.

FowPhoenix made perfect sense in what he was conveying.

he could break out the Mathhammer, but maybe he doesn't want to right now.

he said what is being said on other forums and Paraphrased the inventor of the Leafblower list to back up his claim.

He is also agreeing with what others have said previously(poll and posts)

you could go and see what was actually said on those other forums and check his credibility.




Leafblower lists are fairly easy to beat with the correct tactics and are horrible as far as being balanced. However, this Thread is about sheer firepower and FoxPhoenix was using it as an example of sheer Firepower, and he did mention that it wasn't a great list for being balanced, take all comers list.


Remember Rule #1

In my opinion the poll could be a little more specific... as in, IG are the best "overall" shooty army, but Tau are *better* at shooting (with the significantly fewer shots they have, bear with me). So asking "Which army is the shootiest" is a little too general. Since all it's done is spawn a flame war... :/

"Quantity has a Quality all it's own"

Yes, we've been over this... sigh.

Grey Templar wrote:FowPhoenix made perfect sense in what he was conveying.

Please tell me saying the poll result = the fact , makes perfect sense

Grey Templar wrote:he could break out the Mathhammer, but maybe he doesn't want to right now.

So it's either you do it, or it never happened. Don't make random remarks and pretend they are awesome.

Grey Templar wrote:He is also agreeing with what others have said previously(poll and posts)

you could go and see what was actually said on those other forums and check his credibility.

Your point is?

Grey Templar wrote:Leafblower lists are fairly easy to beat with the correct tactics and are horrible as far as being balanced. However, this Thread is about sheer firepower and FoxPhoenix was using it as an example of sheer Firepower, and he did mention that it wasn't a great list for being balanced, take all comers list.

And the bold says it all. Neither did I said it was junk, merely pointed out to him how many people failed at it in events. Only the successful examples were reported.

Btw, I m not saying IG isnt shooty. It's just the reasons some people use for backing it up is bad.

Ok I'll bite. How bout instead of berating everybody who disagrees with you, you get to the point of what you are trying to say. I'm not being snippy mind you, I am just asking you to outline your arguments so that we can reply to them nicely. Ok?

i was thinin tau but....... i dunno shoota boyz are pretty badass

Don't be so Snarky.


I am well aware that Poll =/= fact.

However, a Poll can be a good indicator of Fact.



This thread isn't about good lists, it's about what can throw out the best/most shooting. the most T'au can throw out is either,

9 Str10 AP1 TL shots and 18 Str8 Ap3 shots and 45 Suit weapons.

3 Str6 Large Blasts, 3 Str10 AP1 shots and 24 Str8 AP3 shots and 45 Suit weapons.

36 Str8 AP3 shots and 45 Suit weapons.


Guard can put out 9 Str9 AP3 large blasts and over a hundred heavy weapons in their Troop choices and don't get me started on the Elite and FA.

Guard just have so many possable options just in their Troop choices. and that's only counting Heavy weapons, add in the Flashlights and it's just an impossable amount of fire.

I would add up the possable Heavy weapons for Guard Troops choices, but i don't have the New codex.



T'au are good at shooting, but they need to make those shots count if they are versing guard. one bad shooting phase and a T'au gunline will get folded pretty easily.

Moderator notice: Keep it polite folks. This thread has been reported. We welcome healthy debate here at Dakka, but there's no call to be rude. Act like respectful adults and people will respect you more too.

May I just add that this poll is over 500 votes. I would say that is a pretty good sample size.

Additionally, the poll name is somewhat vague, but in the opening post I did say "integrated army system". As in how the entire army contributes to making it stronger in shooting. Orders are a good example of an integrated army system of support, or makerlights. Additionally, Lash of Submission being able to move units, so they can be shot at again. So while IG may be able to put out more shots, are they more EFFECTIVE than another army?

Just adding some food for thought.

Well, guard have Orders.

they can Twin-link weapons and force you to reroll your Cover saves. it only applies to Infantry, but Guard can get ALOT of Heavy weapons in their Infantry.

Orders are nice but I don't think they have that much effect on the game to be considered true-blue support. Markerlights dont require any test other than hitting and can effect the game in numerous ways. Orders really on Leadership tests to do anything, and while they can certainly help, I don't think they are thought of more than as "extra" by most IG players. Just my opinion though

Speaking as someone's who's fought a lot of IG and quite a lot of Tau as well, Orders are amazing. Marker lights are good, but cost you points and have to hit. Orders just make your guys better, with small chance of failure.

I will defer to you more experienced guys' judgement, as I have only played 1 game with my guard. I guess I am biased since I read a lot of Ailaros' batreps and he always fails his orders .

I think part of it may also be that I've played against infantry-heavy IG a bunch, who tend to get a lot of mileage out of orders, and keep their stuff closely supported enough to usually be taking those orders on Ld9. I think some Mech IG players do get less mileage out of them.

Yup, thats exactly what I was thinking. They are good, but they definitely are not necessary like Markerlights; Mech IG do quite well without them I believe

IG is amazing with its heavy weapon choices through sheer quanity. IG using orders now becomes amazing due to quanity with quality. A few examples.

Vendetta/Valkyrie
Veteran squad 3x Meltagun
Vendetta/Valkyrie
CCS 4x Meltagun
Outflank/Turboboost and drop them off, on a LD 9(potentially vox for reroll) you can twinlink 7 melta guns. Plus you have 6 twin-linked las-cannons or 4 large blast lasguns.

Al'Raheim Platoon
40 Man combined squad
SWS 3x Melta
SWS 3x Plasma

Al'Raheim outflanks and has 2 orders again on a LD 9 you can have 120 lasguns shots and twin-linked melta. You could also twin-link the melta guns and then fleet the 40 man blob into assault range using orders.

CCS
IG Platoon
PCS
Combined Squad
HWS 3x Lascannon
HWS 3x Autocannon
HWS 3x ML

Depending on what your shooting at you can twin-link, force successful cover saves to be rerolled, give an enhanced go-to-ground coversaves where there are none to your infantry squad, or order a gone to ground squad to get up and shoot/assault as normal. IG has a vehicle for every role in the game and they are all great but the back-bone of IG is troops and orders. My perspective comes from someone who runs a Blob army and a Mech IG army.

I Really don't know how no one is even considering Blood Angels with their surviability, counter charge for anything that gets to close, and having the cheapest devastators off all the marines. As for the IG the orders make them alot better.

Long fangs are as cheap.

And we are talking only about shooting not the shooting units close combat potential otherwise i think the space wolf would win.

Zonder wrote:Vendetta/Valkyrie
Veteran squad 3x Meltagun
Vendetta/Valkyrie
CCS 4x Meltagun
Outflank/Turboboost and drop them off, on a LD 9(potentially vox for reroll) you can twinlink 7 melta guns. Plus you have 6 twin-linked las-cannons or 4 large blast lasguns.

Why would you ever need 7 TL melta gun shots? If you are within melta range, you would never need that many shots for a single vehicle.

PraetorDave wrote:

Zonder wrote:Vendetta/Valkyrie
Veteran squad 3x Meltagun
Vendetta/Valkyrie
CCS 4x Meltagun
Outflank/Turboboost and drop them off, on a LD 9(potentially vox for reroll) you can twinlink 7 melta guns. Plus you have 6 twin-linked las-cannons or 4 large blast lasguns.

Why would you ever need 7 TL melta gun shots? If you are within melta range, you would never need that many shots for a single vehicle.

That is a group of 4 and a group of 3, so you can aim at 2 targets.

odorofdeath wrote:Orders are nice but I don't think they have that much effect on the game to be considered true-blue support. Markerlights dont require any test other than hitting and can effect the game in numerous ways. Orders really on Leadership tests to do anything, and while they can certainly help, I don't think they are thought of more than as "extra" by most IG players. Just my opinion though

all tau markerlights hit on 4+ that would = 50%
IG sergeant have Ld 8 so Orders will work 23 out 36 = 63.89%

Markerlights give +1 to hit or -1 to cover sv = +/- 12.5 %
Orders give 2x las fire re-roll to cover sv = + 100% to las fire or - 25% to cover sv


looks like IG win hands down

ChocolateGork wrote:

poontangler wrote:Hold on.

Tau Fire warriors(With the exception of the Honor Guard) WILL never have a bs of four. A BS of four denotes super human precision and skill, a BS of 3 is the skills of a well trained soldier.


But I agree with the statement that the IG blend Quality and Quantity. I am also not gonna pretend they suck, because the IG do not. But I wont lie to my self and pretend that I have never faced a leaf blower and held my own. I Have faced almost every army GW has(except Dark Eldar) with my tau, I have gotten whooped, and have crushed them.

HAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHA

So gretchin are well trained soldiers?

Grots are like gaunts, they were bred for war and bs 3 is in their genes. Grots were also build with genetic flaws such as being small, weak, and cowardly but that was very intentional for a good reason.

Tau start to die of old age in their 40's iirc. They have no natural aptitude for war and no genetic advantages. Their short lifespan means unlike long lived races like eldar or space marines they have not had decades to build the skill needed for a bs4. The only ig to have a bs 4 is vets, and they have years of experience to the point most tau would be to old to funtion on a battle field when in their late 30s/early 40s.

true, but the advantages of meching up usually mean orders arent' used as much by IG then markerlights are used by tau. Why expose your squishy men for a conditional benefit when you can just hide them in a cozy box and still fire out, albeit with less firepower.

I guess my views on orders prove my n00b-ishness eh? I will be playing against my buddy's space cvampires soon so, with a Creed list. If he can't orders work for me, than no one can.

I have faced Meched up guard and orders are still used quite alot.

mostly by Heavy weapon squads that arn't in transports, but those are the guys who benifit the most.

True, I hadnt even considered those guys...................................

well... time to back out of this thread and preserve whatever dignity/respect I have left...

*quietly backs away*

yorkskargrimironklaw wrote:

odorofdeath wrote:Orders are nice but I don't think they have that much effect on the game to be considered true-blue support. Markerlights dont require any test other than hitting and can effect the game in numerous ways. Orders really on Leadership tests to do anything, and while they can certainly help, I don't think they are thought of more than as "extra" by most IG players. Just my opinion though

all tau markerlights hit on 4+ that would = 50%
IG sergeant have Ld 8 so Orders will work 23 out 36 = 63.89%

Markerlights give +1 to hit or -1 to cover sv = +/- 12.5 %
Orders give 2x las fire re-roll to cover sv = + 100% to las fire or - 25% to cover sv


looks like IG win hands down

I'm not sure Orders and Markerlights can be compared directly like that. If you have a couple units of pathfinders, they can each put up markerlight hits, and IIRC you can stack it up. For instance, you can do more than just -1 to cover save (-3 by using 3 markerlight tokens) and add BS by using 1. So for 4 markerlight tokens you can do -3 cover save (which eliminates for most) and +1 bs.

Markerlights can be stacked up to devastating effect, so while 1 markerlight is certainly less powerful than an order, the potential to stack is much more devastating.

I don't think "IG win hands down" is a good way to describe the comparison.

edit: As I said early on, I think Tau are better than many people give them credit for. They are just a little too expensive compared to IG, but are a close second when it comes to damage in the shooting phase.

You can also force a pinning test with Tau Marker lights. Example. Two squads of Tau Pathfinders(Full squads, eight troops in each, and this is a hypothetical scenario) fire on to a squad with a leader ship of ten. Five marker lights from each squad hit, then you hit that squad with a pinning weapon from a different troop, you can use those ten Marker Light counters to actually force them to go to ground. They would get no chance to pass a pinning test. (I looked that up in the most frequently asked questions on Games Workshop's gaming articles)

Honestly, The IG are more blasty then shooty, which I consider two distinct differences.

I quote my friend remarking on this topic as I told him about it.

"Leave shooting to the Tau, but the big blast is all IG."

Guard. If theres one army that no one (including tau) don't want a drawn out gunfight with, its guard. They have heavy weapons dotted throughout nearly every infantry choice and the tanks are commonly known to be some of the best in the game. Now we all know that Guard isn't very accurate but they make up for it by far with firepower. The manticore for example. It isn't the most accurate of weapons but with an average of two pie plates a turn, by god you're gonna' hit something.

Tau are the better skilled marksman but i've seen many Tau players be grinded down in a battle of attrition against the imperial war machine.

Having said that there are some armies which can provide quite a bit of dakka. I've known the thousand sons with the slow and purposeful rule and lots of heavy weapons put out some pretty nasty firepower. The point I want to make however is no pure shooting army will ever win all but the newest of players. Regardless of how much firepower you bring, eventually those 'nids or standard marines will arrive to meet you in CC (you have taken out the specialist assault troops first right?) The best shooting army is one that can continue to put out tremendous ammounts of firepower while also containing (thats the key to holding a gunline - containment) the various raids and assualt that will eventually reach your lines.

Deceiver wrote:
Tau are the better skilled marksman...

I don't see how, even Tau veterans can't attain a BS of 4 without wargear, whereas IG veterans come with BS/WS4 by default

Guard make the best pie.

Retribution wrote:

Deceiver wrote:
Tau are the better skilled marksman...

I don't see how, even Tau veterans can't attain a BS of 4 without wargear, whereas IG veterans come with BS/WS4 by default

I meant more in terms of distance. The extra few inch can give tau those extra shots before guard can open up with their own fire. Not in all cases but it is in the infantry.

poontangler wrote:You can also force a pinning test with Tau Marker lights. Example. Two squads of Tau Pathfinders(Full squads, eight troops in each, and this is a hypothetical scenario) fire on to a squad with a leader ship of ten. Five marker lights from each squad hit, then you hit that squad with a pinning weapon from a different troop, you can use those ten Marker Light counters to actually force them to go to ground. They would get no chance to pass a pinning test. (I looked that up in the most frequently asked questions on Games Workshop's gaming articles)

Honestly, The IG are more blasty then shooty, which I consider two distinct differences.

I quote my friend remarking on this topic as I told him about it.

"Leave shooting to the Tau, but the big blast is all IG."

10 out of 16 hey, thats can happen about 37.5% of the time. Sound battle tactics there.
Pathfinders cost over 170pts a unit so you want me and everyone here to belive that any tau player would spend 340pts + on pinning a unit.
what are you shooting at? a 10 man unit of terminators wait they would combat squad into 5 man teams
or you could spend the 340pts on 4-5 broadsides and just kill the terminator like every other tau player.

2 squads of pathfinders will cost more than they will make up
plus if you fail the termies or watever they are will eat you in cc and then you'll either be dead or running like hell...

yorkskargrimironklaw wrote:

poontangler wrote:You can also force a pinning test with Tau Marker lights. Example. Two squads of Tau Pathfinders(Full squads, eight troops in each, and this is a hypothetical scenario) fire on to a squad with a leader ship of ten. Five marker lights from each squad hit, then you hit that squad with a pinning weapon from a different troop, you can use those ten Marker Light counters to actually force them to go to ground. They would get no chance to pass a pinning test. (I looked that up in the most frequently asked questions on Games Workshop's gaming articles)

Honestly, The IG are more blasty then shooty, which I consider two distinct differences.

I quote my friend remarking on this topic as I told him about it.

"Leave shooting to the Tau, but the big blast is all IG."

10 out of 16 hey, thats can happen about 37.5% of the time. Sound battle tactics there.
Pathfinders cost over 170pts a unit so you want me and everyone here to belive that any tau player would spend 340pts + on pinning a unit.
what are you shooting at? a 10 man unit of terminators wait they would combat squad into 5 man teams
or you could spend the 340pts on 4-5 broadsides and just kill the terminator like every other tau player.

Man you really over thought your response. Your math-hammer is good, but it relies on the flawed usage of statistics. Any statistic professor will tell you that statistics are unreliable in the field.

It comes down to dice rolls, and those dice have made stranger stuff happen