10470
Post by: shrike
I don't want this turning into a  er thread or anyhing, but I was reading C: BA, specifically mephiston's entry, in which in the fluff section, he was a libby that join the death company, got crushed under a building, cast out the black rage, burst out of the ruin and killed about 30 orks with his bare hands. After this he now is S6, T6, W5, I7 and A4. This, to me, makes little sense- just because he surpassed the black rage, how does that then mean he suddenly has a monstrous creatures stats? To me it seems GW just wanted to make a uber-killy SM unit by any means necessary. Just my two pence on a controvesial subject. Is it just me?
14070
Post by: SagesStone
Nope, I'm actually wondering why the BA aren't considered a renegade chapter yet.
23617
Post by: Lexx
So are you complaining more from a tabletop perspective? Or a fluff perspective? Not that I'm for what mephiston is. He just seems silly to be honest.
31682
Post by: CommissarCandlestick
It does seem quite unlikely that this would happen, but any excuse for GW to make a Super-killy character for any of their MEQ armies will do. Not that I and fellow BA players are complaining of course. To mitigate it, he isn't an IC, so a few las/ plas shots is all it takes to bring him down.
10470
Post by: shrike
CommissarCandlestick wrote:It does seem quite unlikely that this would happen, but any excuse for GW to make a Super-killy character for any of their MEQ armies will do. Not that I and fellow BA players are complaining of course. To mitigate it, he isn't an IC, so a few las/ plas shots is all it takes to bring him down.
at T6 nothing can ID him, short of force weapons, and he has a psychic hood, so that's unlikely, and if you pass the psy test, he's I7.
if you're tigirius using might of the ancients, quickening and the force weapon? 5's to hit, 4's to wound. 0.66 hit, 0.33 wound.
shooting? a LC to the face still needs an average of 9 to kill him. 6 hit, 5 wound.
he is, in effect, a S10 I7 5-wound carnifex that flies around with preferred enemy, a plasma pistol, force weapon, 2+ Sv, force weapon, psychic hood and fleet.
and that isn't OTT or OP.
Lexx wrote:So are you complaining more from a tabletop perspective? Or a fluff perspective? Not that I'm for what mephiston is. He just seems silly to be honest.
fluff perspective- it's in 40k background.
31545
Post by: AlexHolker
From a fluff perspective, I imagine he's not approaching monstrous creature stats but Sanguinius's stats. Perhaps that's what the Black Rage does, if you're strong enough to not be destroyed by the process, just as a recruit's stay in a sarcophagus after drinking the blood of Sanguinius transforms the strong into Space Marines.
35822
Post by: Maurin
From a fluff perspective it makes no sense that those events would turn him into such a freaking beast. Now if he made some sort of pact with chaos, that would make some sense...
10470
Post by: shrike
but still- wouldn't someone like the sanguinor have close to sanguinius's stats?
For me, his fluff makes no sense, his rules make no sense, the model is terrible, and there should never be MC stats on a 25mm base.
but compared to other BA stuff it makes perfect sense. Compared with deepstriking land raiders, flying bricks, dreadnoughts hanging onto the backs of said flying bricks, dreadnought tractor beams and jump infrantry, "because they are", being better at deep striking than everyone else, it makes perfect sense!
30256
Post by: Brotherjulian
Come on now, I've had the Marneus Calgar and Abba-Dabba chese stuffed in my face for years. Now we get a totally over the top character and everyone gets mad?
I do agree he's a little too much, I shook my head first reading the entry and it's a shame because in previous editions I loved ole Mephy (here's a tip, shoot him with something big and he dies. He at least used to have a refractor field)
10470
Post by: shrike
marneus is cheesey, but not OTT or OP.
"shoot him with something big"...it would take 9 lascannons to the face to kill him.
15667
Post by: Emperors Faithful
shrike wrote:marneus is cheesey, but not OTT or OP.
"shoot him with something big"...it would take 9 lascannons to the face to kill him.
Bring Him Down? 
How much does he cost anyway?
10470
Post by: shrike
250pts.
31545
Post by: AlexHolker
shrike wrote:but still- wouldn't someone like the sanguinor have close to sanguinius's stats?
Why would he? Because of the 5th edition's  naming conventions?
For me, his fluff makes no sense, his rules make no sense, the model is terrible, and there should never be MC stats on a 25mm base.
The fluff is fine. Given that the Blood Angels use a completely different way of creating space marines to everyone else, it makes sense that the end point might be different.
The model is not terrible, it's just showing its age.
10470
Post by: shrike
AlexHolker wrote:shrike wrote:but still- wouldn't someone like the sanguinor have close to sanguinius's stats?
Why would he? Because of the 5th edition's naming conventions?
For me, his fluff makes no sense, his rules make no sense, the model is terrible, and there should never be MC stats on a 25mm base.
The fluff is fine. Given that the Blood Angels use a completely different way of creating space marines to everyone else, it makes sense that the end point might be different.
The model is not terrible, it's just showing its age.
because the sanguinor is a ghostly creature like LotD, killing stuff like avatars.
yes, but basically, his life story:
was a good libby
succumbed to the black rage
joined the DC
got crushed under a building
overcame his madness
popped out, killed 30 orks with his bare hands
now runs around killing carnifexes with his bare hands
practically invincible
"The model isn't terrible, it's just showing it's age."
sigged!
15667
Post by: Emperors Faithful
shrike wrote:250pts.
Please, you're telling me you can't put anything together that won't completely make a mess of him in two turns of shooting?
10470
Post by: shrike
No, I just don't tend to carry around 400 points worth of devestator squads, or anything like that.
His rules make no sense.
15667
Post by: Emperors Faithful
I'm thinking something more along the lines of two lascannon teams and a command squad, but whatever floats your boat. 
5917
Post by: Mekboy
It doesn't help that as a human-sized model, he'll get cover saves/not be seen a large amount of the time, compared to say a carnifex or daemon prince.
If I remember correctly he's also got that 'move as jump infantry' psychic power.
36588
Post by: Footsloggin
You do remember correctly...
And two lines of lascannon infantry? Try saying that to my 'nids... The thing rips the head off of anything without lash-whips in a single round of combat. All comers list? Forget about it, if I need to focus that much time taking down a single model, while the rest of my opponents army is shoving itself down my throat, i'm going to fail. The only time i've faced him, he stupidly charged my prime, who subsequently made him I1, and beat the god knows what out of him with its bone-swords... He still ripped himself through my lines with his MASSIVE charge range of insta-gib...
Aside from that, why would over-coming the Black Rage cause you to be able to eat bolter rounds, and lasguns to bounce off your skin! To be able to strangle orks with your hands is understandable, but even the emperor was almost strangled to death by an ork!
31545
Post by: AlexHolker
Footsloggin wrote:Aside from that, why would over-coming the Black Rage cause you to be able to eat bolter rounds, and lasguns to bounce off your skin!
I've given my hypothesis: that sleeping in a sarcophagus for a year triggers a partial change, but there's no inherent reason this should represent the limits of Sanguinius's blood. Mephiston's fall to the Black Rage and subsequent imprisonment might have triggered a second more complete apotheosis.
To be able to strangle orks with your hands is understandable, but even the emperor was almost strangled to death by an ork!
Not all orks are equal. Without the Imperium to cull their numbers, the Age of Strife may have allowed some exceptionally massive ork empires to come into existence, with warlords to match.
36588
Post by: Footsloggin
Are you suggesting that the Black Rage is not an affliction? But rather a right of passage and evolution for strongest of Blood Angels?
21202
Post by: Commander Endova
There are those persistent rumors that Mephiston's transformation is the result of something more sinister...
28806
Post by: Hound of War28
Honestly, i look at it this way, he is the closest we will ever see to a primarch on the table, and the stats and fluff support that. Look at the black library novels, Fulgrim ripped an avatar apart with his bare hands, Russ and Magnus fighting was described as wrecking city blocks and Sanguinus held back a demon army by himself and broke a bloodthirster over his knee.
Now look at the things the Meph is good at taking apart, Avatars, Carnifexes, and other big monsterous things, just like the legends of old. Given that the blood angels have the most direct connection to there Primarch, because of how they are made it makes sense that if any marine would have this kind of transformation it would be him.
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Post by: DA's Forever
Commander Endova wrote:There are those persistent rumors that Mephiston's transformation is the result of something more sinister...
KHORNE!!! BLOOD FOR THE BLOOD... wait... I mean FOR THE EMPRAH! 
But in all Honesty i cold see overcoming the Black Raeg. ( ) Cause minor changes but nothing like this.
13741
Post by: Lord Chiasson
Maybe his increase in stats is basically him learning more how to harness his new found powers after conquering the black rage. He is OP but still has no invul save IIRC not unkillable just dnt go CC with him unless you want to lose. I love his character think he is pretty awesome
37068
Post by: Conservationist
My view is that overcoming the black rage is something abnormal and it would take immense willpower and mental strength to overcome, plus maybe when he overcame the blackrage, he permanently gained the bonuses from it (and since he is a special character.... more bonus), probably a one in a Imperium chance.
21213
Post by: hazal
Meph.... hmm where to start. Hope I dont butcher any lore too much
The big three in the BA lore currently (imo) is corb, meph and dante. Each know their chapter is doomed, are trying to find ways to slow their degredation and fall, and all have foreseen their end will be a sacrifice for big E himself.
This is resultant to the blood practices they use during the initiatory process, giving them the most direct connection to their primarch, more so then any marine chapter. The black rage/red thirst is also a effect of that close tie a direct extension of Sanguinius's anger.
Meph in my opinion be able to overcome the black rage has become closer to his primarch in ability then any prior. This is only made more apparent from his prior skills as a librarian.
Kinda like
Marine + psyker = bad ass armored jedi
Marine + black rage = psycho fearless rending monster
Marine + psyker + controlled black rage = bad ass psycho armoured fearless rending jedi monster with a cool nickname.
28837
Post by: Lokirfellheart
He would have those stats when he was suffering the black rage, not after.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
shrike wrote:CommissarCandlestick wrote:It does seem quite unlikely that this would happen, but any excuse for GW to make a Super-killy character for any of their MEQ armies will do. Not that I and fellow BA players are complaining of course. To mitigate it, he isn't an IC, so a few las/ plas shots is all it takes to bring him down.
at T6 nothing can ID him, short of force weapons, and he has a psychic hood, so that's unlikely, and if you pass the psy test, he's I7.
if you're tigirius using might of the ancients, quickening and the force weapon? 5's to hit, 4's to wound. 0.66 hit, 0.33 wound.
shooting? a LC to the face still needs an average of 9 to kill him. 6 hit, 5 wound.
he is, in effect, a S10 I7 5-wound carnifex that flies around with preferred enemy, a plasma pistol, force weapon, 2+ Sv, force weapon, psychic hood and fleet.
and that isn't OTT or OP.
Lexx wrote:So are you complaining more from a tabletop perspective? Or a fluff perspective? Not that I'm for what mephiston is. He just seems silly to be honest.
fluff perspective- it's in 40k background.
But he can't join units, and has no invun, so as CommissarCandlestick said, he would get taken down by lascannons and plasma cannons/guns.
10470
Post by: shrike
Footsloggin wrote:You do remember correctly...
And two lines of lascannon infantry? Try saying that to my 'nids... The thing rips the head off of anything without lash-whips in a single round of combat. All comers list? Forget about it, if I need to focus that much time taking down a single model, while the rest of my opponents army is shoving itself down my throat, i'm going to fail. The only time i've faced him, he stupidly charged my prime, who subsequently made him I1, and beat the god knows what out of him with its bone-swords... He still ripped himself through my lines with his MASSIVE charge range of insta-gib...
Aside from that, why would over-coming the Black Rage cause you to be able to eat bolter rounds, and lasguns to bounce off your skin! To be able to strangle orks with your hands is understandable, but even the emperor was almost strangled to death by an ork!
he was captured by m'kar- the daemon prince that kills people by looking at them? the one who nearly wiped out the first company? the one who nearly killed calgar and agemann? the one who has come back to life 3 times? yeah, him. Meph apparently strangled him with his bare hands.
Commander Endova wrote:There are those persistent rumors that Mephiston's transformation is the result of something more sinister...
M'kar asked meph if he wanted to join him, insisting he was destined to join the path of chaos...
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Post by: ChocolateGork
He is ridiculous.
The answer to him is lascannons but he is so tiny he can usually get cover from your heavy weapons.
10470
Post by: shrike
ChocolateGork wrote:The answer to him is lascannons.
CommissarCandlestick wrote:a few las shots is all it takes to bring him down.
Lokirfellheart wrote:he would get taken down by lascannons.
shrike wrote:it would take 9 lascannons to the face to kill him.
I mean, what fluff is there to justify a flying, S10, I7, T6, W5, force-weapon wielding psyker?
fluffwise, he can make himself be stronger than a carnifex, is as tough as a carnifex, eats lascannon rounds, flies around on invisible wings and rips apart daemon princes and carnifexes?
just because he survived the black rage.
that makes sense. 
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Post by: ChocolateGork
I dont play BA but ive always wondered about putting him with a librarian with a jump pack and a storm shield. And using shield of sanguinius to give him a 5+ save of sorts.
10470
Post by: shrike
you can't give libbies SS unless they have TDA. (Unless you're using my chief librarian, of course):
http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/327781.page
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Post by: ChocolateGork
Could he be in Termie armour and be an epistolary so he can use wings and shield?
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Post by: WGXH
Funny thing about Mephistion complainers is they don't usually realise he's not fearless. Chances are low, but if in multiple combats, he can be sweeping advanced.
Additionally, in the older dex, he was still nearly as good as he is now. He gained 1 wound, 1 WS, 1 S, 1T, 1 I... and in return, can no longer join units, loses Fearless and Feel No Pain.
and he now costs 25 points more.
Given the progressive power nature of every codex, it doesn't surprise me he's in the state he is now.
and lastly, if you hate him THAT damn much, slap Skulltaker against him and be done with it.
My 2 pence.
10470
Post by: shrike
yeah- I play GK, DKoK and SM. I'm not starting a new army just to kill one unit. Automatically Appended Next Post: ChocolateGork wrote:Could he be in Termie armour and be an epistolary so he can use wings and shield?
aah...I am now going to do that. thanks.
I'll use wings and eithe blood lance or might of heroes.
36588
Post by: Footsloggin
WGXH wrote:Funny thing about Mephistion complainers is they don't usually realise he's not fearless. Chances are low, but if in multiple combats, he can be sweeping advanced.
Additionally, in the older dex, he was still nearly as good as he is now. He gained 1 wound, 1 WS, 1 S, 1T, 1 I... and in return, can no longer join units, loses Fearless and Feel No Pain.
First off, Meph rarely ever loses combat against my 'Nids or Marines(haven't played them here yet, but I don't plan on it considering I play an Infantry heavy list), so sweeping advance just does not work.
Second, 1W 1WS 1S 1 T, and 1 I, an increase of Toughness from 5 to 6 is MAJOR. It means anything S10 can no longer insta-gib you. He strikes at I7, and rips apart anything he touches with his S10 weapon psychic power.
Third, losing Fearless means he doesn't take wounds if he loses CC, instead he has to pass a leadership test at LD10, it's pretty hard to fail. Feel No Pain? You can still give it to him. Can't join units? He can fly around into any cover with his massive movement, effectively obscuring your big gun's LoS.
And if he overcame the Black Rage, why didn't he become fearless?
10470
Post by: shrike
Basically:
fluff beleivability: 1/10
though his surpassing the black rage is beleivable, him being in effect, a primarch, makes no sense.
rules believability: 1/10
same reason
rules balance: 2/10
he has a psychic hood, so that's pretty hard to use against him, he has a S10 force weapon, counts as jump infrantry, is I7, T6, W5, 2+ Sv, and has furious charge. He is Ld10, so he won't fail morale and get sweeping andvanced, and can survive 8 lascannons to the face. tell me that isn't OP or OTT.
way to kill him inside his points range-
hit him with flyers. Vendettas work best. it'll take 3 rounds of shooting with the LC's, but still, he can't touch you while youu do it. Only problem with that is, him being in a BA army, they'll stormraven your flyer first. 
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Post by: WARORK93
n0t_u wrote:Nope, I'm actually wondering why the BA aren't considered a renegade chapter yet.
oh come on, saying the BA are a renegade chapter for their Death company is like saying the Space wolves should be renegade for having wulfen, the imperium's gotta have some uber killy death machines in there somewhere to combat all the other epic BS everyone else has.
10127
Post by: Happygrunt
Hey guys, you know he can kill himself in one turn right? If you fail you psychic test and his plasma pistol gets hot, he's dead. Either make him shoot a lot or have him do tons of psychic goodness, and he will eventually blow himself up. And if that doesn't work, BRING IT DOWN might, or some lasscannons, or a vindicator.
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Post by: Luco
plasma devs laugh at Mephy. Then again, they laugh at most things that aren't a vehicle with armor 12+
11610
Post by: Tzeentchling9
Mephy can't be swept. He is still a marine so he has the, "And They Shall Never Get Removed From The Table After Losing Combat Like Everyone Else Because They Are The Poster Boys" special rule.
10470
Post by: shrike
Happygrunt wrote:Hey guys, you know he can kill himself in one turn right? If you fail you psychic test and his plasma pistol gets hot, he's dead. Either make him shoot a lot or have him do tons of psychic goodness, and he will eventually blow himself up. And if that doesn't work, BRING IT DOWN might, or some lasscannons, or a vindicator.
how many times?
a) it's pretty unlikely that he rolls 5 double-1's.
b) IT WOULD TAKE NINE LASCANNONS TO KILL HIM.
c) Bring it down! won't work- MC's and vehicles only.
d) it would take 12 demolisher cannon shots to kill him. (assuming that there's a 1/3 to hit, and then the chances of scattering but still hitting are 1/2)
the things I can think of for killing mephiston:
lysander vs mephiston:
0.74 wounds on lysander (3.26 left)
2.7 wounds on meph (2.2 left)
0.74 wounds on lysander (2.51 left)
2.7 wounds on meph (dead).
lysander could kill mephiston with 2 or 3 wounds left.
ghazghkull vs mephiston:
1.6 wounds on ghaz (2.4 left)
2 wounds on meph (3 left)
ghazghkull launches a waagh!
0.2 wounds on ghazghkull (2.2 left)
2 wounds on meph (1 left)
waagh! remains going
0.2 wounds on ghaz (2 left)
2 wounds on meph (dead).
waagh! stops (2 turns, give ghazghkull a 2++)
20609
Post by: Tyranid Horde
You guys are all saying "lascannons! Plasmacannons!", I Mind War him to death, once you get past the hood, I've taken him down in one go, but just in case, I run two farseers. 
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Post by: AgeOfEgos
Remember, background/fluff.....not tactics guys .
The fluff basically states his gene seed being dormant, coupled with the Black Rage caused some physical transformation. It also states '...when he mastered the Black Rage something altogether more terrible took its place.". Given his Daemon Prince states, I'm thinking maybe....
Anyways, it's Ward. His fluff is over the top, I wouldn't let it eat you up.
10470
Post by: shrike
so what unit from each race can kill him?
orks- ghazghkull
SM- lysander
IG- vendetta
Eldar- farseer
yarrick vs mephiston:
0.9 wounds on yarrick (2.1 left)
0.5 wounds on meph (4.5 left)
0.9 wounds on yarrick (1.2 left)
0.5 wounds on meph (4 left)
0.9 wounds on yarrick (0.3 left)
0.5 wounds on meph (3.5 left)
0.9 wounds on yarrick (dead.)
yarrick gets back up (iron will)
0.5 wounds on meph (3 left)
0.9 wounds on yarrick (0.1 left)
0.5 wounds on meph (2.5 left)
0.9 wounds on yarrick (dead)
yarrick gets back up (iron will)
0.5 wounds on meph (2 left)
0.9 wounds on yarrick (0.1 left)
0.5 wounds on meph (1.5 left)
0.9 wounds on yarrick (dead.)
doesn't get back up.
ah. With IG, you either have to be really lucky with your iron will rolls, or have a vendetta.
mephiston vs vendetta:
0.009 destroyed on the vendetta (0.991 left)
1.6 wounds on meph (3.4 left)
0.009 destroyed on the vendetta (0.982 left)
1.6 wounds on meph (1.8 left)
0.009 destroyed on the vendetta (0.973 left)
1.6 on meph (0.2 left)
0.009 destroyed on the vendetta (0.964 left)
1.6 on meph (dead.)
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Post by: Happygrunt
shrike wrote:
a) it's pretty unlikely that he rolls 5 double-1's.
Or double six's. 
And Meph is probably much closer to the primarch then anyone else. But the chaos angle on him makes him very interesting. I guess we will have to wait to see what GW do with him...
10470
Post by: shrike
hopefull make him either:
a) get crushed by a third building and die
b) succumb to the black rage and charge headlong into a waagh!/hive fleet/craftworld/the warp
c) succumb to the black rage and get executed by astorath
d) turn to chaos and get killed by grey knights
END THE MADNESS!
34168
Post by: Amaya
He costs 2XX points.
Is not Eternal Warrior.
Can not join a unit.
Has no invul save.
Is it really that hard to shoot him up with a bunch of AP1/AP2 stuff?
10470
Post by: shrike
he's I7.
he has 5 wounds.
he has 4 attacks.
he's toughness 6, so he can't be ID'd.
he has a S10 force weapon.
he counts as jump infrantry.
he has a 2+ Sv.
he can use 3 psy powers a turn.
he's S6 standard.
Yes he is that OP and hard to kill
9 SM LASCANNONS.
31545
Post by: AlexHolker
I think this thread needs to die. Shrike has no interest in actually listening to in-universe justifications for Mephiston's power, and keeps on dragging it off-topic.
34168
Post by: Amaya
He's not hard to kill at all.
Where's your plasma and meltaguns?
Where's your librarian to cancel his powers?
Where's your SS terminators to lock him down?
10470
Post by: shrike
sorry, I fail to see how I "keep dragging it OT"
my posts have been:
why I don't like mephiston
explaining to someone that I was talking about from a fluff perspective
working out what could kill him and summing him up in 1 sentence
talking about his OTTness compared with other BA units
talking some more about what it would take to kill him
telling someone how many points he costs
talking about how he became so good in the fluff
talking some more about how to kill him
answering some questions
speculating about what GW holds in store for meph in the future
talking some more about how to kill him
answering some more questions
rating meph's beleivability and fairness
some mathhammer on what could kill him
some more on speculating meph's future
summing up his OP-ness
and posting this.
EVERYTHING I POSTED WAS ABOUT MEPHISTON*
*or BA libarian-related.
27391
Post by: purplefood
AlexHolker wrote:I think this thread needs to die. Shrike has no interest in actually listening to in-universe justifications for Mephiston's power, and keeps on dragging it off-topic.
I think the point he is making is that there is no in-universe justification for his power. If you compare his TT power to his background there is no justification for it at all.
36588
Post by: Footsloggin
shrike wrote:he's I7.
he has 5 wounds.
he has 4 attacks.
he's toughness 6, so he can't be ID'd.
he has a S10 force weapon.
he counts as jump infrantry.
he has a 2+ Sv.
he can use 3 psy powers a turn.
he's S6 standard.
Yes he is that OP and hard to kill
9 SM LASCANNONS.
And looking at this, are your 9 Lascannons going to matter? Odds are you will never get all 9 in LoS of him at the start of the game, and you still have the REST of the army to deal with! Any good player will just sit him behind a Rhino, and jump him around killing whatever he well pleases. Automatically Appended Next Post: Tzeentchling9 wrote:Mephy can't be swept. He is still a marine so he has the, "And They Shall Never Get Removed From The Table After Losing Combat Like Everyone Else Because They Are The Poster Boys" special rule.
Oh yes, and sigged!
29194
Post by: Luco
AgeOfEgos wrote:Remember, background/fluff.....not tactics guys .
The fluff basically states his gene seed being dormant, coupled with the Black Rage caused some physical transformation. It also states '...when he mastered the Black Rage something altogether more terrible took its place.". Given his Daemon Prince states, I'm thinking maybe....
Anyways, it's Ward. His fluff is over the top, I wouldn't let it eat you up.
New strategy, throw the Watchers in the Dark at him, the buggers are invulnerable and he'll eventually get buried
Personally, I thought his fluff was kinda cool. Makes sense? Well no, but it followed the only rule that GW seems to follow and as over the top as it may be I'm fine with it.
10470
Post by: shrike
Luco wrote:Makes sense? Well no, but it followed the only rule that GW seems to follow.
what rule is that? MEQ must be the best? MEQ must have the most OP and OTT units? I bet it's something like that...
24150
Post by: ChocolateGork
shrike wrote:Happygrunt wrote:Hey guys, you know he can kill himself in one turn right? If you fail you psychic test and his plasma pistol gets hot, he's dead. Either make him shoot a lot or have him do tons of psychic goodness, and he will eventually blow himself up. And if that doesn't work, BRING IT DOWN might, or some lasscannons, or a vindicator.
how many times?
a) it's pretty unlikely that he rolls 5 double-1's.
b) IT WOULD TAKE NINE LASCANNONS TO KILL HIM.
c) Bring it down! won't work- MC's and vehicles only.
d) it would take 12 demolisher cannon shots to kill him. (assuming that there's a 1/3 to hit, and then the chances of scattering but still hitting are 1/2)
the things I can think of for killing mephiston:
lysander vs mephiston:
0.74 wounds on lysander (3.26 left)
2.7 wounds on meph (2.2 left)
0.74 wounds on lysander (2.51 left)
2.7 wounds on meph (dead).
lysander could kill mephiston with 2 or 3 wounds left.
ghazghkull vs mephiston:
1.6 wounds on ghaz (2.4 left)
2 wounds on meph (3 left)
ghazghkull launches a waagh!
0.2 wounds on ghazghkull (2.2 left)
2 wounds on meph (1 left)
waagh! remains going
0.2 wounds on ghaz (2 left)
2 wounds on meph (dead).
waagh! stops (2 turns, give ghazghkull a 2++)
Thats assuming lysander doesnt get mind f^&@ed by him. And that is more likely than it isnt.
29029
Post by: Slick
Instead of crying about how OP he is, why not try and find simple workarounds to counteract him?
A Death company squad with some power weapons/fists of roughly the same point cost can make mincemeat of Meph in a single round.
Guardsman can use a blob with a commissar, a Psyker battle squad to tank his leadership, or worst case scenario- just pile on volume of fire from a few chimeras.
Farseers with dire avengers can do a nasty volume of fire with rerolls, or even a squad of fire dragons jumping out of a wave serpent and pouring shots into him.
Hell, Tyranid warriors with lash whips and boneswords do things to Mephiston that should be illegal, let alone the pricier HQ types, Broodlords with stealers, etc.
From a fluff point of view, sure it's a stretch, but reading almost ANY of the fluff can stretch your credulity if you are trying to think about how 'unrealistic' it is. Does riding a wold mean a marine is now immune to being blown apart by an anti tank missile? According to the book, it sure does!
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Post by: ChocolateGork
shrike wrote:Basically:
fluff beleivability: 1/10
though his surpassing the black rage is beleivable, him being in effect, a primarch, makes no sense.
rules believability: 1/10
same reason
rules balance: 2/10
he has a psychic hood, so that's pretty hard to use against him, he has a S10 force weapon, counts as jump infrantry, is I7, T6, W5, 2+ Sv, and has furious charge. He is Ld10, so he won't fail morale and get sweeping andvanced, and can survive 8 lascannons to the face. tell me that isn't OP or OTT.
way to kill him inside his points range-
hit him with flyers. Vendettas work best. it'll take 3 rounds of shooting with the LC's, but still, he can't touch you while youu do it. Only problem with that is, him being in a BA army, they'll stormraven your flyer first.
Actually with fleet he could catch you.
29194
Post by: Luco
shrike wrote:Luco wrote:Makes sense? Well no, but it followed the only rule that GW seems to follow.
what rule is that? MEQ must be the best? MEQ must have the most OP and OTT units? I bet it's something like that...
lol, I'm sure that that's on the list of them to be sure! Rule of 'hey that ounds cool, doesnt make sense but it makes for an epic type character so lets do it!' of course, it depends on your viewpoint, but it fits it to me.
25208
Post by: AlmightyWalrus
As I always point out when it comes to Mephiston, I can't wait until Black Templars get our 5th ed. 'dex. Grimaldus survived having not just any building, but an entire temple dedicated to the Emperor, dropped on him. While he didn't have the Black Rage to combat, I'm sure we can pull something just as arbitrary out of our collective behinds to justify giving him 8 wounds with EW or something silly like that, no?
36588
Post by: Footsloggin
YA! Might as well give him T6 and Eternal warrior too!
29194
Post by: Luco
lol, well while we're at it, lets get Deathwing Terminators 2-3 wounds, T5, FNP and eternal warrior, after all it only takes 6 of them to liberate a planet.
36588
Post by: Footsloggin
Wait? 6 of them liberated a planet!?
29194
Post by: Luco
Footsloggin wrote:Wait? 6 of them liberated a planet!?
A lone squad and a terminator librarian returned to their homeworld to find it had been overrun by Genestealers, 50 years prior according to lexi, and they painted their armor bone white to symbolize that they were dead men walking before embarking on their campaign to free the world. In the end they cut through them and fought the largest genestealer any had encountered before, though it meant the death of the Librarian, but they liberated the planet. In honor of this squad the Deathwing now paints their armor bone white and every scout learns of it upon his elevation from Scout to Brother. The battle is known as the "Tale of Two Heads Talking" ( Pg. 16 Codex: Dark Angels)
37225
Post by: theduncan
the easiest way to kill meph is with old zogwart
I pissed the hell out of a guy the other day when I turned Marneus Calgar into a squig
****in hilarious
26615
Post by: grayspark
Uhhhh, I'm pretty sure Mephiston is as strong as he is, to represent the secret power of the black rage. If a Blood Angel is strong enough to overcome the curse of Sanguinius then their Gene-Seed fully-awakens (I'm guessing on that, but I'm pretty sure they mention Mephiston's Gene-Seed fully awakening).
4042
Post by: Da Boss
It's pretty dumb. To me, the worst of it is all those poor Chaos marines who traded their souls to cost nearly as much but be T4 (5) with no eternal warrior and poo initiative.
GW, you suck at quality control as far as rules go.
30689
Post by: Sanguinis
Ok personally Mephiston is my FAVORITE model of all time. My Mephiston has chewed through so much. In 1 tournament he killed almost 1500pts of stuff in 3 games. First game he chewed through 2 Trygons, a Hive Tyrant, and a squad of 10 gaunts. I think GW was just trying to give Space Marines a Demon Prince type character.
As to the OP's original question. Apparently when you overcome the Red Thirst/Black Rage you become a super Space Marine. So basically if the Blood Angels learned to overcome the Red Thirst/Black Rage we would have an entire chapter of WS 6 BS 5 S 6 T 6 W 3 I 7 A 3 LD 10 Sv 3+/2+ (first ones normal Space Marines, second one is Terminators).
Yeah because thats what happens when Blood Angels get really really mad!
14070
Post by: SagesStone
theduncan wrote:the easiest way to kill meph is with old zogwart
I pissed the hell out of a guy the other day when I turned Marneus Calgar into a squig
****in hilarious
Meph is immune to that spell though. On the plus side if he was an Independent Character, and thus able to be hit by Zog's curse, he could hide with a termie squad with a sang priest in a Land Raider.
37527
Post by: ChronoCupcake
n0t_u wrote:Nope, I'm actually wondering why the BA aren't considered a renegade chapter yet.
Mainly cause of sanguinius, Im guessing the imperium is willing to turn a blind eye to most of there actions cause itd be pretty devastating to morale if the scions of sanguinius went renegade. Automatically Appended Next Post: AgeOfEgos wrote:Remember, background/fluff.....not tactics guys .
The fluff basically states his gene seed being dormant, coupled with the Black Rage caused some physical transformation. It also states '...when he mastered the Black Rage something altogether more terrible took its place.". Given his Daemon Prince states, I'm thinking maybe....
Anyways, it's Ward. His fluff is over the top, I wouldn't let it eat you up.
My thoughts exactly, it also goes on about how when fighting a famous bloodthirster ( I think the same one sanguinius killed during the HH ), that it mentioned to him that hes firmly on the path to daemonhood. I mean technically from the chaos gods standpoint if the head librarian of the blood angels gets killed and they resurrect him and attempt to corrupt him with warp influence and he succumbs not only would they gain a powerful tool but he could corrupt other blood angels / wreak havoc on the remaining loyalists, which could just be the chaos gods way of getting even with sanguinius for scratching horus's armours paint job. Not being a wargamer I have no idea what any of the stats mean xD
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Post by: shrike
theduncan wrote:the easiest way to kill meph is with old zogwart
I pissed the hell out of a guy the other day when I turned Marneus Calgar into a squig
****in hilarious
I was wondering just last week about wether I should renew my old ork army, just to buy zogwort and some people off.
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Post by: Mukkin'About
It's pretty flatly stated, and implied through his statline, that Mephiston is posessed. I don't see how this comes as a shock to so many of you.
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Post by: SagesStone
No the shock is how they get away with all the BS.
35808
Post by: Mukkin'About
like what? inconsistent fluff? I thought that kind of tripe was par for the course with GW. they are consistently inconsistent.
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Post by: SagesStone
Hiding the Baal Predator STC
Modifying the engines of all the vehicles in the army
Black Rage
Meph most likely possessing daemonic powers
The Sanguinor being pretty much a Daemon
There are probably more, but the Inquisition has gone after chapters for less than that. They should at least be fairly suspicious of the Chapter.
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Post by: DarthDiggler
Oh good Lord. Stop trying to kill him with lone characters or units worth 130pts. Feed him to a unit of TH/SS assault terminators, one of the most common units in the game, and he will drop faster than a Prom Date after a Redbull and Vodka.
35808
Post by: Mukkin'About
And label one of the most iconic chapters in all of the astartes as heretics? Naww, that would piss off the fanboys too much!!
I'm sure they have inquisitors barking at their doorstep, mitigated only by the decrees of the emperor. there's a couple successors that are already renegade.
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Post by: shrike
DarthDiggler wrote:Oh good Lord. Stop trying to kill him with lone characters or units worth 130pts. Feed him to a unit of TH/SS assault terminators, one of the most common units in the game, and he will drop faster than a Prom Date after a Redbull and Vodka.
hmm, true. how long will the combat last?
turn 1:
termies take 0.7 wounds (4.3 left)
meph takes 2.7 wounds (2.3 left)
turn 2:
termies take 0.7 wounds (3.6 left)
meph takes 1.9 wounds (0.4 left)
turn 3:
termies take 0.7 wounds (2.9 left)
meph takes 1.6 wounds (dead).
termies kill him in 3 turns.
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Post by: purplefood
shrike wrote:DarthDiggler wrote:Oh good Lord. Stop trying to kill him with lone characters or units worth 130pts. Feed him to a unit of TH/SS assault terminators, one of the most common units in the game, and he will drop faster than a Prom Date after a Redbull and Vodka.
hmm, true. how long will the combat last?
turn 1:
termies take 0.7 wounds (4.3 left)
meph takes 2.7 wounds (2.3 left)
turn 2:
termies take 0.7 wounds (3.6 left)
meph takes 1.9 wounds (0.4 left)
turn 3:
termies take 0.7 wounds (2.9 left)
meph takes 1.6 wounds (dead).
termies kill him in 3 turns.
It's more like 2. You can't have 0.4 wounds and rounding it basically means he's down in 2 turns.
The point is though not everyone plays SM and need a way of taking him out.
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Post by: theduncan
lol, forget zoggy can only kill independent characters, sorry!
On an unrelated note, I just turned Abbadon and a Daemon Prince into squigs last game.
I love zoggy.
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Post by: shrike
+1. I love the way he can just get rid of a noob's prize mary sue in a turn without lifting a finger. 
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Post by: Sanguinis
theduncan said: lol, forget zoggy can only kill independent characters, sorry!
On an unrelated note, I just turned Abbadon and a Daemon Prince into squigs last game.
A Daemon Prince isn't an Independent Character.
37225
Post by: theduncan
oops
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Post by: kill dem stunties
Meh, the people whining about meph are pretty hilarious, and bad players imo.
Mephiston is terrible, and ridiculously easy to play around, let alone kill.
I guess bad players who cannot set up/deny assaults turns beforehand get owned by a terrible overcosted model.
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Post by: Brother Heinrich
he's an in-the-closet greater demon, hopefully, he'll come out in 6th and that chapter of world eate- I mean Blood Angels will finally be stamped out.
35141
Post by: Aethis
Not sure where I read it, but overcoming the Black Rage re-activated his gene seed which reinvigorated him. So essentially, he's running around with a double dose of marine.
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Post by: Neconilis
kill dem stunties wrote:Meh, the people whining about meph are pretty hilarious, and bad players imo.
Mephiston is terrible, and ridiculously easy to play around, let alone kill.
I guess bad players who cannot set up/deny assaults turns beforehand get owned by a terrible overcosted model.
Indeed, that's the reason that I don't usually take him, as it's far too easy to lose a 250 point investment to someone who knows his weaknesses. Not to say he's worthless by any means, but 250 points can be spent on a lot more that often seems the better choice. Plus, any army that includes legitimate anti-psyker capability totally ruins his day, generally speaking.
Though, when he manages to run roughshod over the opposition, I have to admit that it's pure hilarity for me.
As for his fluff, well, he has conquered the Black Rage, he's a psyker of near unprecedented power, has centuries of experience, and is more spiritually aligned with the legacy of Sanguinius than any other Blood Angel ever has been. Apparently that makes you a three meter tall flying monstrous creature, but too cheap to buy an iron halo, and too cool to join squads; and since no other character has ever had the same experiences, well, I guess we just have to accept that.
As for those who said Chaos worshipers don't get as good a reward... Have you read the fluff? The 'rewards' of Chaos are rarely even a double edged sword. They're typically your entire existence and everything you ever cared about is now ruined! But one of your stats is now higher and you get a cursed weapon that helps you 'most' of the time. You're also a hideous disgusting freak who now knows that nothing but soulless entropy and eternal horror awaits. Wow, where do I sign up for that? Sounds awesome...
35808
Post by: Mukkin'About
Brother Heinrich wrote:he's an in-the-closet greater demon, hopefully, he'll come out in 6th and that chapter of world eate- I mean Blood Angels will finally be stamped out.
Sorry to burst your bubble but The BA have been around since RT and in that era you had like 3 or 4 BA chapters out of a dozen. Are they going to get rid of BA? hell no. That's about as likely as them retconning ultras.
If the BL releases are anything to go by, Mephiston's arc will either see him killed and the BA's go on.. Or he was never posessed and his miraculous tale of super astartes glory makes you go "What a twist!" shyamalan style.
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Post by: AlmightyWalrus
Mukkin'About wrote:That's about as likely as them retconning ultras.
Haven't they already? I remember reading somewhere that the Ultramarines were a second founding chapter that scavenged most of their stuff back in the days, but this could be me misremembering things.
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Post by: Lord Chiasson
Im just curious as to why people think that Meph becoming a badass cause he is the only space marine in the entire 40k universe and the entire Blood Angel Legion existence to surpass a genetic flaw(think of it as being born with cancer and then surviving it without treatment just an i.e) which usually always claims his fellow brothers doesn't deserve to have awesome fluff that stats I can see being justified as he has mastered his abilities over the years becoming stronger and what not. How does anyone know what mastering the black rage brings in power? only one person has ever done it. And then its like me yelling about Abbadon being able to not be the pawn of any of the Chaos Gods yet still get there favor?, how much BS is that there Chaos Gods for Emperor's sake how can you play them?
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Post by: DA's Forever
Abbadon = A playa! that's how!
But in all seriousness, I think it would improve him yes, but just not so much as it has.
25208
Post by: AlmightyWalrus
Lord Chiasson wrote:Im just curious as to why people think that Meph becoming a badass cause he is the only space marine in the entire 40k universe and the entire Blood Angel Legion existence to surpass a genetic flaw(think of it as being born with cancer and then surviving it without treatment just an i.e)
Lemartes?
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Post by: Lord Chiasson
No lemartes still has the Black Rage its just barley kept in check and also he is put into stasis to slow the effects also IIRC, and he hasn't conquered it he is basically just riding it way out
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Post by: DA's Forever
man up and go bury yourself with a building
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Post by: Lord Chiasson
Abaddon where talking about the one who failed all 13 crusades right? you think he would have gotten it maybe the 3rd try right? lol
DA's Forever wrote:man up and go bury yourself with a building
Done and do.....OMG did not think this threw, did not think thi....[silence] [applause]
10667
Post by: Fifty
Mukkin'About wrote:That's about as likely as them retconning ultras.
You know they already did that, and are being amusing, right?
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Post by: DA's Forever
Lord Chiasson wrote:Abaddon where talking about the one who failed all 13 crusades right? you think he would have gotten it maybe the 3rd try right? lol
DA's Forever wrote:man up and go bury yourself with a building
Done and do.....OMG did not think this threw, did not think thi....[silence] [applause]
*Mephiston picks up rubble* "You overcame it yet?"
"Dont put me back in here man!"
"that's a no." *drops rubble* "see you next week"
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Post by: Lord Chiasson
DA's Forever wrote:Lord Chiasson wrote:Abaddon where talking about the one who failed all 13 crusades right? you think he would have gotten it maybe the 3rd try right? lol
DA's Forever wrote:man up and go bury yourself with a building
Done and do.....OMG did not think this threw, did not think thi....[silence] [applause]
*Mephiston picks up rubble* "You overcame it yet?"
"Dont put me back in here man!"
"that's a no." *drops rubble* "see you next week"
LMAO
21170
Post by: Klawz
Lord Chiasson wrote:Abaddon where talking about the one who failed all 13 crusades right? you think he would have gotten it maybe the 3rd try right? lol
Two things:
1) He wasn't even head of all of them.
2) Black Crusades often have different purposes than just conquering the Imperium. The 12th's goal was to take a Blackstone Fortress, and the 13th was to capture Cadia.
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Post by: ChocolateGork
How many have succeeded?
And how much security can there be around a blackstone?
Surely there is one inside the eye of terror or somewhere the imperium isnt.
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Post by: Klawz
lexicanum wrote:781.M31, beginning of the 1st Black Crusade aka The First Battle of Cadia.
597.M32, beginning of the 2nd Black Crusade a failed attack on defences of Cadia.
909.M32, beginning of the 3rd Black Crusade.
001.M34, beginning of the 4th Black Crusade. Destruction of the Citadel of Kromarch on El'Phanor.
723.M36, beginning of the 5th Black Crusade.
901.M36, beginning of the 6th Black Crusade.
811.M37, beginning of the 7th Black Crusade aka the Ghost War. The Blood Angels are slaughtered at Mackan.
999.M37, beginning of the 8th Black Crusade.
573.M38, beginning of the 9th Black Crusade.
001.M39, beginning of the 10th Black Crusade aka the Conflict of Helica. Iron Warriors fight the Iron Hands at Medusa.
301.M39, beginning of the 11th Black Crusade.
139.M41, beginning of the 12th Black Crusade aka the Gothic War. Abaddon the Despoiler tries to capture the Blackstone Fortresses.
999.M41, beginning of the ongoing 13th Black Crusade. Major attack on the Cadian system.
Other known Black Crusades
The Black Crusade of Tallomin. Daemon Prince Tallomin leads an attack that is crushed by the Space Wolves.1
The Black Crusade of Doombreed. Doombreed, Daemon Prince of Khorne, declares war upon the Adeptus Astartes. The Warhawks and the Venerators are lost.1
The Black Crusade of Jihar the Lacerator. Jihar the Lacerator, champion of Slaanesh, invades Imperial space but is met by stern resistance from the Mordant 13th Acid Dogs regiment of the Imperial Guard.4
The Blackstar Crusade. In M34, Lord Ekrak, a champion of Khorne, leads a crusade to conquer the world of M'Laar XIII and ascends to deamonhood. In the aftermath, the forces under his command begin to fight each other for possession of the planet.7
37225
Post by: theduncan
how did discussions get to the black crusades - back on topic
meph is tough because he has ascended to near primarch-hood and yeah
27391
Post by: purplefood
theduncan wrote:how did discussions get to the black crusades - back on topic
meph is tough because he has ascended to near primarch-hood and yeah
That doesn't make any sense.
He should be tough but not as tough as he is.
13741
Post by: Lord Chiasson
Klawz wrote:Lord Chiasson wrote:Abaddon where talking about the one who failed all 13 crusades right? you think he would have gotten it maybe the 3rd try right? lol
Two things:
1) He wasn't even head of all of them.
2) Black Crusades often have different purposes than just conquering the Imperium. The 12th's goal was to take a Blackstone Fortress, and the 13th was to capture Cadia.
Alright my bad, So its only for sure that he has Failed one? and noone knows who was leading those other black crusades?
purplefood wrote:theduncan wrote:how did discussions get to the black crusades - back on topic
meph is tough because he has ascended to near primarch-hood and yeah
That doesn't make any sense.
He should be tough but not as tough as he is.
But how do we know that? Maybe conquering the black rage is a milestone to being a super astares monstrous creature, as GW is master of the 40k universe and Meph's stat line says it is. I guess its just a natural hate for the space marines going around 
25208
Post by: AlmightyWalrus
Klawz wrote:Lord Chiasson wrote:Abaddon where talking about the one who failed all 13 crusades right? you think he would have gotten it maybe the 3rd try right? lol
Two things:
1) He wasn't even head of all of them.
No, but he WAS head of the "big" ones, i.e. the ones with numbers.
36588
Post by: Footsloggin
But how do we know that? Maybe conquering the black rage is a milestone to being a super astares monstrous creature, as GW is master of the 40k universe and Meph's stat line says it is. I guess its just a natural hate for the space marines going around
In no way, shape, or form do I hate Space Marines. What I DISLIKE about the Blood Angels/Space Wolves, is that some of their fluff is exceedingly OTT. In addition, their TT models surpass Vanilla Marines in more ways than seemed possible...
27391
Post by: purplefood
Footsloggin wrote:But how do we know that? Maybe conquering the black rage is a milestone to being a super astares monstrous creature, as GW is master of the 40k universe and Meph's stat line says it is. I guess its just a natural hate for the space marines going around
In no way, shape, or form do I hate Space Marines. What I DISLIKE about the Blood Angels/Space Wolves, is that some of their fluff is exceedingly OTT. In addition, their TT models surpass Vanilla Marines in more ways than seemed possible...
In all fairness it's mainly the TWC and Canis that have gone OTT. Without them it wouldn't really be OTT. All of the Wolf-something items were in the previous codex.
24150
Post by: ChocolateGork
Klawz wrote:lexicanum wrote:781.M31, beginning of the 1st Black Crusade aka The First Battle of Cadia.
597.M32, beginning of the 2nd Black Crusade a failed attack on defences of Cadia.
909.M32, beginning of the 3rd Black Crusade.
001.M34, beginning of the 4th Black Crusade. Destruction of the Citadel of Kromarch on El'Phanor.
723.M36, beginning of the 5th Black Crusade.
901.M36, beginning of the 6th Black Crusade.
811.M37, beginning of the 7th Black Crusade aka the Ghost War. The Blood Angels are slaughtered at Mackan.
999.M37, beginning of the 8th Black Crusade.
573.M38, beginning of the 9th Black Crusade.
001.M39, beginning of the 10th Black Crusade aka the Conflict of Helica. Iron Warriors fight the Iron Hands at Medusa.
301.M39, beginning of the 11th Black Crusade.
139.M41, beginning of the 12th Black Crusade aka the Gothic War. Abaddon the Despoiler tries to capture the Blackstone Fortresses.
999.M41, beginning of the ongoing 13th Black Crusade. Major attack on the Cadian system.
Other known Black Crusades
The Black Crusade of Tallomin. Daemon Prince Tallomin leads an attack that is crushed by the Space Wolves.1
The Black Crusade of Doombreed. Doombreed, Daemon Prince of Khorne, declares war upon the Adeptus Astartes. The Warhawks and the Venerators are lost.1
The Black Crusade of Jihar the Lacerator. Jihar the Lacerator, champion of Slaanesh, invades Imperial space but is met by stern resistance from the Mordant 13th Acid Dogs regiment of the Imperial Guard.4
The Blackstar Crusade. In M34, Lord Ekrak, a champion of Khorne, leads a crusade to conquer the world of M'Laar XIII and ascends to deamonhood. In the aftermath, the forces under his command begin to fight each other for possession of the planet.7
HE tried to get ALLLL of the Fortresses? Come on. Surely one would be enough to last through cadia. or di he want to weld them together and create TE UBERS GUN OF DETRUKTION!
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Post by: rubicant99
In 2nd Ed it seemed overcoming the black rage turned him into a fully fledged vampire; his stats were identical to a fantasy vampire.
In the 5th edition he does seem crazy powerful, more on par with a greater daemon. Out of interest anyone know if the stats of a current vampire special character are comparable?
He's a cool character but you do have to wonder where they are going with him. Making him a daemon just seems too obvious to me; we already got a bucket load of tratior chapters with daemon princes etc.
27872
Post by: Samus_aran115
Yeah, OP we know Phisty is a loser.
28438
Post by: DA's Forever
Phisty? All the Blood Angel Kids made fun of him, amiright?
30984
Post by: Brutii11
Klawz wrote:the Mordant 13th Acid Dogs regiment of the Imperial Guard.
Now that is a good name for a regiment!
Being an acid dog makes you sound so much more like you will actually do something instead of being one of the countless expendable regiments that the IOM just throws at enemies to slow them down.
25751
Post by: gmaleron
From an Imperial Guard players perspective i honestly just see another overpowered option the space marines (in this case blood angels) have at their disposal . Chances are that i will have to face on the table top eventually, probably in the tournament i play in this upcoming January. I do frankly think that GW as a whole is focusing way to much on the Space Marines and need to start updating the other armies such as....i dont know Chaos? Necrons? Lately it seems besides the Dark Eldar that the only codexs coming out are that of space marines which means that both Chaos and the Necrons will take a back seat to the Dark Angels Codex or another marine codex.
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Post by: AlmightyWalrus
gmaleron wrote:From an Imperial Guard players perspective i honestly just see another overpowered option the space marines (in this case blood angels) have at their disposal . Chances are that i will have to face on the table top eventually, probably in the tournament i play in this upcoming January. I do frankly think that GW as a whole is focusing way to much on the Space Marines and need to start updating the other armies such as....i dont know Chaos? Necrons? Lately it seems besides the Dark Eldar that the only codexs coming out are that of space marines which means that both Chaos and the Necrons will take a back seat to the Dark Angels Codex or another marine codex.
Necrons are being updated and Chaos is probably bar Orks the 4th edition codex that needs a new book the least. And TBH, Chaos are Space Marines too, just not as much as the loyalists.
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Post by: Luco
gmaleron wrote:From an Imperial Guard players perspective i honestly just see another overpowered option the space marines (in this case blood angels) have at their disposal . Chances are that i will have to face on the table top eventually, probably in the tournament i play in this upcoming January. I do frankly think that GW as a whole is focusing way to much on the Space Marines and need to start updating the other armies such as....i dont know Chaos? Necrons? Lately it seems besides the Dark Eldar that the only codexs coming out are that of space marines which means that both Chaos and the Necrons will take a back seat to the Dark Angels Codex or another marine codex.
gmaleron wrote:will take a back seat to the Dark Angels Codex
please yes please yes please yes. Sorry what?
5th ed dexes.
Marines
Blood Angels
Wolves
Guard
Dark Eldar
Tyranids
Considering that Orks were built for 5th essentially we have more non marine dexs than we have marine dexs and even if we don't its an even output. the rumors in the pipe are crons, tau, grey knights, and sisters. oh look, 3 more non marine dexs to only 1 marine dex.
37225
Post by: theduncan
gmaleron wrote:From an Imperial Guard players perspective i honestly just see another overpowered option the space marines (in this case blood angels) have at their disposal . Chances are that i will have to face on the table top eventually, probably in the tournament i play in this upcoming January. I do frankly think that GW as a whole is focusing way to much on the Space Marines and need to start updating the other armies such as....i dont know Chaos? Necrons? Lately it seems besides the Dark Eldar that the only codexs coming out are that of space marines which means that both Chaos and the Necrons will take a back seat to the Dark Angels Codex or another marine codex.
Imperial guard are already too OP. They don't need to be made better.
They need to be burned as heretics!
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Post by: shrike
Luco wrote:gmaleron wrote:will take a back seat to the Dark Angels Codex
Considering that Orks were built for 5th essentially we have more non marine dexs than we have marine dexs and even if we don't its an even output. the rumors in the pipe are crons, tau, grey knights, and sisters. oh look, 3 more non marine dexs to only 1 marine dex.
actually-
'crons- dunno anything about, IMHO just people going on about they haven't had an update in ages, that they are bound to get one soon.
GK- confirmed. They are coming.
SoB- the codex has been yanked from the shelves- a sign of the inbound new one, but then there are a few codexes coming out before then (normally in 40k codexes they go xenos, IoM, xenos, IoM, ect.
tau- see 'crons.
And although GK are technically a SM chapter, they are different in practically every way. Different weapons, recruitment technique, training, closely tied t the inquisition, ect.
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Post by: Justus
Not everybody has Lascannons and plasma cannons :( I can say that the Deathleaper combined with SitW would hypothetically cripple his magic horrifically. Or, in a squad of Genestealers, pray that the Broodlord's Hypnotic Gaze goes off along with the Implant Attack.
P.S. See lash whips, page 83.
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Post by: Amaya
Ugh, this is still going? Yes, Mephiston's stats are bad in comparison to everything else.
He's by no means the most OP thing in the codex. BA Dreadnaught spam takes the cake imo.
10470
Post by: shrike
In order of most OTT units in C:BA:
mephiston
DS'ing LR's
Dreads hanging onto stormravens
Libby dread
DC
(IMHO)
36588
Post by: Footsloggin
Death Company aren't that bad, and they aren't that OTT in the fluff, Libby Dread, I don't care, Stormraven Dreads? Don't really matter, they cost a massive amount of points. Ds'ing LR? WTF?!?!?!
35973
Post by: Gibbsey
mephiston - yes he has mc stats but fluff wise death company gets part of sanguinus's strength from black rage, meph has overcome that and gained additional powers
DS'ing LR's - Which noone wants to do anyway....
Dreads hanging onto stormravens - new transport that will probebly make an appearence in other chapters, and whats so bad about it?
Libby dread - Its a psycher dreadnought? whats so op about that (175pts and you cant take any of the other upgrades)
DC - i thought the general consensus was that they were overpriced (at least their upgrades). Anyway fluff wise whats so bad about these guys? they get overpowered by their primarch's rage and go into battle to die
10470
Post by: shrike
Gibbsey wrote:mephiston - yes he has mc stats but fluff wise death company gets part of sanguinus's strength from black rage, meph has overcome that and gained additional powers
DS'ing LR's - Which noone wants to do anyway....
Dreads hanging onto stormravens - new transport that will probebly make an appearence in other chapters, and whats so bad about it?
Libby dread - Its a psycher dreadnought? whats so op about that (175pts and you cant take any of the other upgrades)
DC - i thought the general consensus was that they were overpriced (at least their upgrades). Anyway fluff wise whats so bad about these guys? they get overpowered by their primarch's rage and go into battle to die
Sorry, let me revise that:
DC dreads. They are meant to go into battle once and then get executed by astorath. Then why bother keeping them alive in a dread?
Dreads on stormravens:
I have no objection to stormravens- I encourage the use of them in other MEQ codexes. But how can a massive dreadnought manage to cling on to the back of one of these aircraft while it flies at Xmph? It must make a significant change in aerodynamics and weight disposition.
Libby dreads aren't OTT much, but I find them to be simply cheesy.
35973
Post by: Gibbsey
shrike wrote:Gibbsey wrote:mephiston - yes he has mc stats but fluff wise death company gets part of sanguinus's strength from black rage, meph has overcome that and gained additional powers
DS'ing LR's - Which noone wants to do anyway....
Dreads hanging onto stormravens - new transport that will probebly make an appearence in other chapters, and whats so bad about it?
Libby dread - Its a psycher dreadnought? whats so op about that (175pts and you cant take any of the other upgrades)
DC - i thought the general consensus was that they were overpriced (at least their upgrades). Anyway fluff wise whats so bad about these guys? they get overpowered by their primarch's rage and go into battle to die
Sorry, let me revise that:
DC dreads. They are meant to go into battle once and then get executed by astorath. Then why bother keeping them alive in a dread?
Dreads on stormravens:
I have no objection to stormravens- I encourage the use of them in other MEQ codexes. But how can a massive dreadnought manage to cling on to the back of one of these aircraft while it flies at Xmph? It must make a significant change in aerodynamics and weight disposition.
Libby dreads aren't OTT much, but I find them to be simply cheesy.
Astorath only executes them when they can find death in battle and are completely gone
Thats a good point on the DC Dreads.... although one of 2 things could explain it: they are either normal dreads that got the black rage or they were DC wounded but still alive and not able to fight normally, they are stored in stasis fields so that isnt a problem and they are send straight into battle. The idea of DC is for them to find death in battle, Astorath is a last resort.
Libby dreads was going to happen eventually same with chaplain dreads and aslong as they are priced correctly it wouldent be too bad (maybe...)
And Stormraven has vertical thrusters so that gives it some nice abilities, carrying a dread wouldnt really be a problem considering its size. But yeah loads of people have complained about the stormraven in general saying it wouldent fly, aslong as it has vertical thrusters at the fron aswell as on the wings it would have no problem (and even if it didnt that would only be a problem without the dread to balace it out )
Oh and a loaded out stormraven get pretty expensive (425pts for stormraven + cargo for the most basic loadout: basic Stormraven + basic assault squad + basic dread(well basic furioso))
30532
Post by: Zefig
Gibbsey wrote:
Libby dreads was going to happen eventually same with chaplain dreads and aslong as they are priced correctly it wouldent be too bad (maybe...)
With this line of thinking, does that mean in a codex or two we'll be getting Apothecary/Sanguinary Priest dreads? Have fun picking THEM out in assault
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Post by: MikhailLenin
The best explanation I could give about Mephiston is that he is the only Space Marine to have actually come close to full activating his gene-seed properties. While Space Marines all have Gene-Seed almost all of them have been unable to activate their full potential. They have been given the genetic material to achieve a Primarch Level organism but the transformation has to also be psychic/mental as well as physical. Mephiston's case is that he achieved a far greater form of Gene=Seed activation but at what cost? Some speculate because of help from certain Chaos patrons, others say from Sanguinus himself but most likely Mephiston knows that he is rapidly becoming more and more into something that is not himself. Eldrad even mentions this to him face to face, he is losing grip on what and who he is as his evolution keeps going.
25208
Post by: AlmightyWalrus
Zefig wrote:Gibbsey wrote:
Libby dreads was going to happen eventually same with chaplain dreads and aslong as they are priced correctly it wouldent be too bad (maybe...)
With this line of thinking, does that mean in a codex or two we'll be getting Apothecary/Sanguinary Priest dreads? Have fun picking THEM out in assault
Mephiston Dreadnought...
NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!
30532
Post by: Zefig
Hey, at least he'd be on a bigger base then, right? But he'd probably get AV 14 all around too. Speculating, of course.
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Post by: shrike
Mephiston, Lord of cheese is crushed under another building and is entombed in a dreadnought. BEHOLD! MEPHISTON DREADNOUGHT, LORD OF LORD OF CHEESE! I can imagine his shoulders being pictures of:  ; firing molten onto lesser y models like Marneus " y" Calgar and thunder cavalry from his underslung template weapon! using his psychic powers to make him fly around on wings of and fire a lance of through the enemy lines, launching shots out of his cannon and stomping on infrantry, bellowing " !" at his foes, vanquishing them, leaving nothing but the odour of rotting flesh and mouldy in his wake. y, Isn't it?
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Post by: AlmightyWalrus
And on the pedestal these words appear:
My name is Mephiston, Lord of Cheese! Look upon my stats, ye mighty, and despair!
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Post by: shrike
I was like:  .
then I saw your sig.
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Post by: Jaon
To sum things up: there should never be a unit that forces you to tailor your list. If you dont take plasma or a boatload of lascannons as IG, you cannot stop mephiston. Lasguns and BATTLECANNONS ping off him like theres no tomorrow, mephiston eats autocannon rounds for breakfast, and even likes to eat the old demolisher round, which of course explodes when he bites it, BUT ITS OK, HE STILL HAS 4 WOUNDS LEFT!
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Post by: shrike
amen.
36588
Post by: Footsloggin
Oh well, back to the murdering board...
32432
Post by: Brother-Thunder
coming from a vanilla marine player, Mephiston has never really scared me. I either gun him down before he reaches my lines, or Lysander beats his ass in close combat. That's right, Lysander.
...Provided one does not biff every single hit roll. Ha!
He is 250 points wrapped in a 5 wound model with no invul save. he is not that scary when you pack enough AV into your list.
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Post by: Samus_aran115
Zefig wrote:Gibbsey wrote:
Libby dreads was going to happen eventually same with chaplain dreads and aslong as they are priced correctly it wouldent be too bad (maybe...)
With this line of thinking, does that mean in a codex or two we'll be getting Apothecary/Sanguinary Priest dreads? Have fun picking THEM out in assault
Apothecary dreads? Now you're talking! Might as well just have honour guard dreads, techmarine dreads, captain dreads and biker dreads!
10470
Post by: shrike
Captain- tend to be regular/venerable
Techmarine- Ironclad
Chaplain- chaplain
Libby- libby
DC- DC
Apothecary/priest-.......
chapter champion-.......
We'll end up with a whole army of dreads soon!
34618
Post by: Cryage
Can the Swarmlord replace a Bonescythe with a lash whip? if so, there goes Mr.Meph's high Init, and thats 3x bone sabre attacks that are instant kills.
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Post by: shrike
how ID?
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Post by: Elector
shrike wrote:marneus is cheesey, but not OTT or OP.
"shoot him with something big"...it would take 9 lascannons to the face to kill him.
Nooooo....he has 5 wounds, you need (at least) 5 lascannons to technically kill him, or melta, or plasma. And all of those would negate his save no?
Also, fluff-wise, the sarcophagus and the blood-drinking activates part of the gene-seed, but after being the first and only BA to throw off the Black Rage, something thought impossible, "His gene-seed, dormant these many long years, had awakened and wrought further changes, granting exceptional strength and vigour." (quoted from the codex)
34618
Post by: Cryage
shrike wrote:how ID?
Bone sabres are different than the hive tyrants boneswords, Bone Sabres, regardless of the targets toughness, inflict instant death. They get invul saves, thats it (and even units with invul saves have to re-roll any passed saves).
 <3 Swarmlords long time.
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Post by: Hlaine Larkin mk2
a captain with a SS and a relic blade could concievably take mephistion after a bit of shooting
Background wise sanguinus did appear to him in his madness and had his true Psychic abilities unleashed(Starting to sound like that psy-corp guy in B5 Season 1) and has an eintire book in the imperial 'bible' the same as Sebastian Thor
10470
Post by: shrike
Elector wrote:shrike wrote:marneus is cheesey, but not OTT or OP.
"shoot him with something big"...it would take 9 lascannons to the face to kill him.
Nooooo....he has 5 wounds, you need (at least) 5 lascannons to technically kill him, or melta, or plasma. And all of those would negate his save no?
Also, fluff-wise, the sarcophagus and the blood-drinking activates part of the gene-seed, but after being the first and only BA to throw off the Black Rage, something thought impossible, "His gene-seed, dormant these many long years, had awakened and wrought further changes, granting exceptional strength and vigour." (quoted from the codex)
So he:
Got crushed under a building
Overacme the black rage
Resurfaces as the toughest, strongest space marine alive.
Killed about 50 orks with his bare hands
Now runs around throttling greater daemons with his hands and beating up carnifexes.
and that makes sense how?
and chances are with the lascannons- 9 shots- 6 hit- 5 wound- dead. 9 lascannons to kill.
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Post by: AlmightyWalrus
Hlaine Larkin mk2 wrote:a captain with a SS and a relic blade could concievably take mephistion after a bit of shooting
Background wise sanguinus did appear to him in his madness and had his true Psychic abilities unleashed(Starting to sound like that psy-corp guy in B5 Season 1) and has an eintire book in the imperial 'bible' the same as Sebastian Thor
He's S10, and he'll probably get to reroll everything against you. One failed 3++ and you're history.
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Post by: shrike
yep. The only other SM HQ I can think that can take him is:
Damocles rhino (in apocalypse- 4 ordnance barrages to the face has to hurt)
Lysander (as we already discovered)
Anyone with a vortex grenade
and you're better off with a TH/SS guy anyway- you're I5 weapon doesn't count for gak coz' he's I7.
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Post by: AlmightyWalrus
shrike wrote:yep. The only other SM HQ I can think that can take him is:
Damocles rhino (in apocalypse- 4 ordnance barrages to the face has to hurt)
Lysander (as we already discovered)
Anyone with a vortex grenade
and you're better off with a TH/SS guy anyway- you're I5 weapon doesn't count for gak coz' he's I7.
TBH a GK BC OR GM could take him with a retinue of 3 termies with TH/ SS. Since the DH thunderhammers are made of Cheese Incarnate, Mephiston only needs to take 1 wound every round until he's dead, and all the termies need to live through is the first flurry of attacks.
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Post by: shrike
hmm. mathhammer time!
It'd take two grand masters to kill in a turn, one would get ID'd:
w/ SS:
Meph wounds 0.77 (because of ID, 1.22 left)
GKGM wounds 1 ( ID).
done!
25208
Post by: AlmightyWalrus
shrike wrote:hmm. mathhammer time!
It'd take two grand masters to kill in a turn, one would get ID'd:
w/ SS:
Meph wounds 0.77 (because of ID, 1.22 left)
GKGM wounds 1 ( ID).
done!
And Mephiston's psychic hood?
Anyhow, suppose it was a Brother-Captain with psychic hood and his 3 buddies ( TH/ SS)
Scenario 1: Meph gets S10
5 Attacks, 3,333 hits (no rerolls, the BC isn't an IC until everyone else is dead and buried). Out of those 3,333, approx. 2,777 wound, rounding that to 3.
Brother-Captain snuffs it, one of the Terminators survive thanks to 4++.
Terminators attack back, 4 attacks, 2 hit, 1,666 wounds. Mephiston can't attack until the end of the next assault phase, which means that the thunder hammers hit him again next turn before he gets to attack and locks him to death.
Scenario 2: The psychic hood stops Meph's S10
Not even going to bother...
494
Post by: H.B.M.C.
I'm still trying to figure out why an Emo-Librarian and a 400-year old Ultramarine Chaplain are somehow tougher than fething Typhus...
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Post by: 1hadhq
IsTyphus that tough at all?
Or just immune to nurgles 'gifts'.....
Typhus was the first to give in to nurgle, can't be a tough guy IMO
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Post by: H.B.M.C.
1hadhq wrote:IsTyphus that tough at all?
Are you kidding? The 10,000+ year old Nurgle Terminator Sorcerer Lord, a guy referred to as Nurgle's Herald, who was the original as far as Nurgle-blessed (such as it is) Space Marines... and there's an argument in there somewhere that an angry Librarian and old Chaplain could be tougher than him? Really??? No what we really have here is a failure to communicate - one Codex designer to the next. The 'Chaos' Codex is from the Jervis Era, where being a special character just meant that your Power Weapon was either Master Crafted or gave you +1S. The Marine Codex (and every Codex after it) is from the Post-Jervis Era, where Special Characters are crazygonuts and full of win and stupid. This is why we have T6 Chaplains and Daemon Prince Librarians when Chaos players are stuck with Typhus Weakling of Nurgle.
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Post by: shrike
yep.
But the eras are more defined:
Jervis-era IoM, where SC's were +1S and better wargear.
Jervis-era xenos, where SC's were +1S or better wargear.
Modern IoM, where SC's are +2S, I, T, A, much better wargear and a billion special rules.
Modern xenos (from 3rd ed. codexes), where SC's are +2S, T, I, A, much better wargear and a billion special rules.
Modern xenos (from 4th ed. cedexes), where SC's are +1S, T, I, A, better wargear and a million special rules.
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Post by: SagesStone
H.B.M.C. wrote:I'm still trying to figure out why an Emo-Librarian and a 400-year old Ultramarine Chaplain are somehow tougher than fething Typhus...
They believe in the Emprah. This solves a lot of inconsistencies and rule issues in all the SM codices.
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Post by: shrike
n0t_u wrote:H.B.M.C. wrote:I'm still trying to figure out why an Emo-Librarian and a 400-year old Ultramarine Chaplain are somehow tougher than fething Typhus...
They believe in the Emprah. This solves a lot of inconsistencies and rule issues in all the SM codices.
well, chaos believe in the emprah, coz' in the 40k universe he is real. whether they worship him or believe he's a god/demi-god....
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Post by: 1hadhq
Fluff: Typhus fell first. The first to fall would be the weakest link in a chain, thus I doubt he deserves to be the 'toughest'.
Game: Were post-Jervis? Maybe chaos just needs M.Ward to write its codex (like he did SM and BA) , including the danger to find them on a 'renegade' course
again and one of these 'renegades' (obviously a former Ultramarine or since that won't happen of Gullymans geneseed) will be the super-awesome SC of cheese
to wield the superior statline of a God.
OTOH, chaos is unimportant in 5th ed, we get hungry space bugs, dark space elfs and undead in space to replace them as major threat to the IoM.
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Post by: A-P
H.B.M.C. wrote:I'm still trying to figure out why an Emo-Librarian and a 400-year old Ultramarine Chaplain are somehow tougher than fething Typhus...
Amen. As a dedicated Death Guard player I often find myself hugging myself and weeping when preparing for a battle. The Boss having T4(5) and no EW really makes you hate anything with S8+...
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Post by: Earthbeard
Being the first to fall doesn't make him any less tough, than the last to fall, afterall it was more about belief and will power than physical pains.
But hey, carry on harping on the first to fall is the weakest
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Post by: Black Fiend
H.B.M.C. wrote:1hadhq wrote:IsTyphus that tough at all?
Are you kidding? The 10,000+ year old Nurgle Terminator Sorcerer Lord, a guy referred to as Nurgle's Herald, who was the original as far as Nurgle-blessed (such as it is) Space Marines... and there's an argument in there somewhere that an angry Librarian and old Chaplain could be tougher than him? Really???
No what we really have here is a failure to communicate - one Codex designer to the next. The 'Chaos' Codex is from the Jervis Era, where being a special character just meant that your Power Weapon was either Master Crafted or gave you +1S. The Marine Codex (and every Codex after it) is from the Post-Jervis Era, where Special Characters are crazygonuts and full of win and stupid. This is why we have T6 Chaplains and Daemon Prince Librarians when Chaos players are stuck with Typhus Weakling of Nurgle.
Chaos got some good special characters you failed to mention such as Abbadon and Kharn. The main difference being they are not force multipliers like Logan Grimnar or Vulkan.
494
Post by: H.B.M.C.
Yeah, great, I'm not talking about good Special Characters. I'm talking about why a Nurgle Special Character is somehow not as tough as an Angry Librarian and an Elderly Chaplain.
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Post by: shrike
Yep.
Oh yeah- I noticed that in pretty much every rulebook and codex that I've read concerning the HH that sanguinius got killed by horus, the emperor killed horus- rumoured to be through a chink in horus's armour- though no one will ever be sure."
Except in C:BA, it says the emperor killed horus through a chink in the armour, that it is fact. That's a bit contradictory.
6838
Post by: 1hadhq
@shrike: changed the subject
a) ortan cassius = more machine than marine > T6
b) the marine formerly known as Calistarius = activated geneseed > T6
Conclusion: Callas typhon, lacks the bionic parts and has not evolved to fully activate the geneseed.
30625
Post by: SumYungGui
The best part is people will gleefully excuse meph's cheesiness then in the very next breath complain about Tyranid monstrous creatures being too tough. It's fantastic. I can only imagine how much a Trygon wishes his base was 25mm and he could hide behind a Termagant for a cover save.
14070
Post by: SagesStone
Wait people complain about how "tough" the nid MCs are now?
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Post by: Gibbsey
n0t_u wrote:Wait people complain about how "tough" the nid MCs are now?
Yes because carnifex's are so underpriced and tervigons are amazing in close combat
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Post by: AgeOfEgos
Gibbsey wrote:n0t_u wrote:Wait people complain about how "tough" the nid MCs are now?
Yes because carnifex's are so underpriced and tervigons are amazing in close combat
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Post by: Brother Xorus
I agree with gmaleron, and i play Blood Angels. Even though the BA were in desperate need of a update, GW spends entirely too much time on Space Marines in general. I have a secondary Necron army i never play due to the fact they are grossly out of date and have a friend who never plays his awesome chaos army for the same reason. Nec's, Chaos, Tau, and many more are neglected races that contribute alot to the game, and the fluf of 40k but are next to ignored by players because they are next to ignored by GW. Also they spend to much time comming out with a entiry new edition/rules every other year rather then just sticking with a set of rules, and issueing small updates and changes as needed.
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Post by: shrike
It's all in the marketing. I don't wanna be a flamer or anything, but I don't like DOW. The game is great, but why release a game (DOW2), then 6 months later release a new one with exactly the same stuff and +2 races? It's not worth it IMO.
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Post by: theduncan
H.B.M.C. wrote:Yeah, great, I'm not talking about good Special Characters. I'm talking about why a Nurgle Special Character is somehow not as tough as an Angry Librarian and an Elderly Chaplain.
Because Matt Ward says so, and his word is the Emprah's.
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Post by: candy.man
H.B.M.C. wrote:No what we really have here is a failure to communicate - one Codex designer to the next. The 'Chaos' Codex is from the Jervis Era, where being a special character just meant that your Power Weapon was either Master Crafted or gave you +1S. The Marine Codex (and every Codex after it) is from the Post-Jervis Era, where Special Characters are crazygonuts and full of win and stupid. This is why we have T6 Chaplains and Daemon Prince Librarians when Chaos players are stuck with Typhus Weakling of Nurgle.
+1 to this. HBMC has hit the nail on the head.
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Post by: Mukkin'About
Just wait until you get a new chaos dex. He'll be stronger, or retconned.. not sure which
35521
Post by: Bwolf999
hehe Skulltaker is the answer
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Post by: Shelegelah
Easy enough, throw a shadow field archon with an agonizer in there. I don't believe he nullifies invulnerable saves, and getting to him is certainly not a problem as long as you have your wet-cardboard steed hovering about.
Wound on a 4+, decent number of attacks, odds of getting insta-gibbed are there if you roll a 1, but it's still a damn decent option to best him in close-combat. Plus if you've got a soul trap, you've just become something approaching a god, what with the addition of a pain token!
Sounds like a winning strategy to me.
Fluff-wise, I honestly don't see a horrible problem with it. It's just the next step in the Blood Angels already rampant mutations. I wouldn't be surprised if they got branded traitor sometime soon.
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Post by: Zid
I'm with many people in that I think Mephhy is no longer Mephhy... I believe hes a DP in disguise after his brush with the deepest depths of the black rage. Perhaps he broke and made a deal with some beast of the warp to make the pain go away? who knows. I agree that his stats are a little dumb; but hell, for 250 points, a lot of stuff can kill him. Last week I managed to down him in 1 turn; 1 SR blood missile, 1 TLMM shot, 1 lascannon shot, and 2 meltas, and he dropped it like its hot... even tho he'd eaten a libby, a priest, a 10 man AM squad, and a predator before he bit it. Of course, my TH/SS termis ate 30 marines, 2 priests, and a rhino and only lost 1 termi all game @_@ Them's the breaks!
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Post by: Lax35
Hearing everyone rage about Mephy and how much of a ball he is has convinced me to use him. Models been purchased, MEPHISTON SHALL CONQUER ALL
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Post by: Zarynterk
Lax, big cheese ball... enough so that I try to field him as much as possible. If only to further the legend that is Mephiston. Come to think about it, I may even start a thread about Mephy's table accomplishments; for example in one game I charged a unit of 10 Khorne Zerkers and Kharne with Mephy and killed them all, only to move on and wipe out a unit of Raptors before he finally fell to las fire.
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Post by: mrdabba
when did he actually go OP when they were writing his rules?
it wasn't the high WS.
it wasn't the high T
it wasn't even the high number of Wounds or ability to use wings, sword, rage.
they had to go and actually give him Fleet....Fleet as well...its like they said lets throw in the kitchen sink, dish washer and what the hell a brand new Car.
Fleet just made him OP because even if you counter his wings he is going to run you down and curb stomp you anyway.
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Post by: SagesStone
I like it when people use it though. 250 less points of Death Company to worry about.
2636
Post by: NagothDaCleaver
I've fought against him 3 times
The first time I was my orks and I figured out on the second turn that there was absolutely nothing I had on the table that could fight him, so I ignored him. He did alot of killing, but I did alot of TROOP killing and ended up winning based on objectives.
But I have since switched to mainly playing my Salamanders and my solution now to him is a simple one...Terminators... specifically my Salamander Assault Terminators with Thunder Hammers and Storm Shields. My 5 man squad whooped up on him both times and one of the times he charged them.
I am in love with Salamander Assault terminators, there are not alot of things in this game that 5 of them can't own.
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Post by: shrike
NagothDaCleaver wrote:there are not alot of things in this game that 5 of them can't own.
6 of them?
I love TH/ SS termies too. I had 5 punch through 1,500pts worth of 'nids once.
I put them with the top beatstick around- lysander. If I hadn't of started raven guard, salamanders were choice #2. I would do them now, but I've started DKoK...and BA...and GK...and buying trenches...so yeah. A while off.
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Post by: NagothDaCleaver
shrike wrote:NagothDaCleaver wrote:there are not alot of things in this game that 5 of them can't own.
6 of them?
I love TH/ SS termies too. I had 5 punch through 1,500pts worth of 'nids once.
I put them with the top beatstick around- lysander. If I hadn't of started raven guard, salamanders were choice #2. I would do them now, but I've started DKoK...and BA...and GK...and buying trenches...so yeah. A while off.
Word
Salamander TH/ SS Termies are the best though, as all of their Thunder hammers are master crafted for free.
I have made a conversion for Tu'Shan of the Salamanders and when I field him I always use the Lysander rules... he's a bucket of whoop
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Post by: shrike
So the best beatstick, along with 5 TH/SS termies, all master-crafted? ouch.
I use lysander as my RG 1st compan captain.
I might use vulkan...but is that...pushing it? yeah. I already have about 20 HQ choices in my army, like I need any more...
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Post by: adielubbe
NagothDaCleaver wrote:Salamander TH/SS Termies are the best though, as all of their Thunder hammers are master crafted for free.
I have made a conversion for Tu'Shan of the Salamanders and when I field him I always use the Lysander rules... he's a bucket of whoop
Do you run Vulken and Lysander?
In how many points?
But back to mephiston. He is extremely over-powered IMO.
Assault termies with Lysander will crump him, but a Land Raider will likely be necessary to catch him.
Not to mention a huge chunk of that super-unit will unfortunatly go down with him.
So yes i can kill him. But it's going to take 650 points of my 1650 SM force.
ing mephiston.
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Post by: NagothDaCleaver
adielubbe wrote:NagothDaCleaver wrote:Salamander TH/SS Termies are the best though, as all of their Thunder hammers are master crafted for free.
I have made a conversion for Tu'Shan of the Salamanders and when I field him I always use the Lysander rules... he's a bucket of whoop
Do you run Vulken and Lysander?
In how many points?
But back to mephiston. He is extremely over-powered IMO.
Assault termies with Lysander will crump him, but a Land Raider will likely be necessary to catch him.
Not to mention a huge chunk of that super-unit will unfortunatly go down with him.
So yes i can kill him. But it's going to take 650 points of my 1650 SM force.
ing mephiston.
Actually, I was telling him how I used Lysander as an OT comment to the tangent I created about the Termies and such, I only run Vulkan and Lysander( Tu'Shan) in our Apocalypse games.
Lysander isn't necessary to kill Mephiston, 5 Salamander TH/ SS Termies can do it just fine on their own. That was my original point before it the conversation slipped OT.
You could even throw one more in and have 6 Terminators and still be 10 points under Mephiston.
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