Anyone ever heard of your local gaming store charging memberships in order to use terrain and play at the store? Also, it says that a person who buys their army online is not allowed to use the store's tables and terrain.........

wtf??? is this ridiculous or what?????really??? I honestly can't believe I saw this and it is a store only 1.5 hours away from me


thoughts? input?

There was a store in Kingston, ON that had a store membership program, but it was for discounts, not for use of their facilities so to speak. That's really odd. Personally, I would not be giving that store my business.

Did they explain why?

just2fierce wrote:

Anyone ever heard of your local gaming store charging memberships in order to use terrain and play at the store? Also, it says that a person who buys their army online is not allowed to use the store's tables and terrain.........

wtf??? is this ridiculous or what?????really??? I honestly can't believe I saw this and it is a store only 1.5 hours away from me


thoughts? input?

Hmm...charging to use the terrain and play, seems a little unusual.

But bought your army online, and want to use it's facilities free of charge on regular occasion, GTFO parasite! (Sorry if that seems a little strongly worded, but hey, you haven't supported your store, why should they support you?)

There are multiple stores that have tried this sort of thing. It normally doesn't work. I am a strong advocate for paying where you play, though. If you use a store's facilities to play in, but do the majority of your shopping online, you are something of a parasite. If they provide good gaming tables and good customer service, you really should be giving them business in return. Both out of gratitude and to make sure they stay open and you can keep playing there!

Generally I don't see the IDEA of a membership as a terrible thing, as long as you're getting something for your money. A lot of stores do membership programs which come with a discount or other services.

A new store in my town has a "pay to play" gaming area, but also sells a monthly membership where you choose how much you want to buy in for, and the membership gets you x number of play passes, store credit equal to the cost of the membership, and some additional services such as access to a library of games in the store which you can use. It's a pretty decent deal, and helps the store get a more regular reliable source of income.

Oh, almost forgot. There are also gaming clubs which aren't part of a store and collect dues from the members to pay for gaming space, terrain, and such. I know of one in the Boston area, and one in New York, but usually that's more common in the UK and other countries, AFAIK.

Not sure of the online army thing, but I have known some store that charged a modest fee... $5-10 a month for table/computer (AB) use.... not all that outrageous.

just2fierce wrote:Anyone ever heard of your local gaming store charging memberships in order to use terrain and play at the store? Also, it says that a person who buys their army online is not allowed to use the store's tables and terrain........

Well what if you buy half of your models from them? Do they take a note and watch which ones you try to use on the table?

I think the best thing is for a store to either provide a space for free or charge everyone a nominal amount. If you charge everyone a small amount you could make the place a really nice place to game and people would pay for that comfort and convenience otherwise they'll just stay at home.

no real explaination but I did find this on their website......

I have decided that the store will provide a membership. This will be a paid membership that will at first provide members with access to playing on members only tables. The tables will be available only to paying members. The tables will not be put away if their is no space left due to many people coming into play games. I will provide some table space for open gaming. The open tables will be first come first serve and from now on only available to our customers (if you buy online you cant play here with your online army). The members will have to fill out an application that will have an agreement clause in it that will state if you damage the table or terrain you will pay for the damages. The application will be open to all of our customers I will only refuse access based on how I know you treat terrain. If you treat it poorly you will not be approved. If members damage terrain or tables they will pay damages and then be suspended for a period of time determined by the agreement. I will write up the agreement soon and post when this will be available.

Some of you were here this weekend when the tables were out and have seen first how nice they are. If you are interested then keep checking here and I will have an agreement up soon.

Some of you may not like this idea. I realize you have had the opportunity (not right) to play here for free. You may think I buy here and should play for free. That is not the case. I give this to you out of kindness. Bowling alleys dont let you play free because you bought a ball. Theaters dont let you watch movies free because you bought popcorn (I support the store because I bought a drink, false). I will still provide space out of kindness please be kind to me and stop acting like you are entitled to all of this. This is a great place to play and hangout I provide many reasons to shop and play here. Enjoy it respect it.

also found this.........posted by owner of store
non members who are paying customers are welcome to our open tables like they have been for years. non customers as in internet business is not welcome period. Yes this is a bold statement but if you buy online and come in and buy the occasional drink or some 5 bucks here and there I dont need you. It is simply a need to stay open. if you are in here playing on my tables and my real customers run out of room because of this customer they are a burden. also they are no longer welcome to reap the benefits of a great store. Loyalty is rewarded with a place to play and people to play with. along with all the other great things we provide.
Dont get me wrong it doesnt change that I may still like you or would love any of your business I simply cant afford and will not allow it anymore. Much love to all who support us.


So far this is how it works. If you are currently and continue to buy elsewhere please do not come here anymore you are no longer welcome. I know this sounds harsh but I need to take care of my customers. If you are playing here and not buying here then you are basically mooching off of me. Not acceptable anymore.
As for playing. There will be some tables that are open to all of our customers. And there will be some that are member only.

Jan is going to be our member start date. I will finalize everything soon

I don't know how he's going to enforce the internet armies thing. The quoted text sounds like he's upset over it, and maybe a little desperate to get some more cashflow.

He does seem to be continuing to offer some free gaming space, and more and better tables with access only for the members.

Don't know if it'll work out, or is possibly a last-ditch tactic of a store that's failing. If this is a store you like and want to keep around, it's worth supporting them with your money.

I only ever get up there like 3 times a year cause it's a 2 hour drive versus my local 30minute commute to my home store, I just found it really strange and this store has been there a LONG TIME and has a VERY large local following in the town where it is!!!!

Howard A Treesong wrote:
I think the best thing is for a store to either provide a space for free or charge everyone a nominal amount. If you charge everyone a small amount you could make the place a really nice place to game and people would pay for that comfort and convenience otherwise they'll just stay at home.

In a perfect world that is what would happen, but it seems more and more store owners are out to bleed whatever they can from the locals, screwing the long term consequences. Take for instance one local store. Our club had been running monthly tournaments there for about a year. The club supplies the terrain, the materials, the advertising, the judging. The store provides space, and the tables to lay our mats and terrain on. On tournament days we were generally drawing 10-16 people (which 16 is about the cap, and even that is VERY cramped). Most of the time we'd draw in some people who live out of town and drive up to support the club (and by way of that the store since they don't have one within normal driving distance). They'd drop 200-300 dollars (combined) each visit, plus we'd buy our prize support from the store. All of a sudden, because business in general was going bad for the store, they wanted us to start paying a rather hefty fee up front to use the space, plus they wanted to dictate the way we set up our tournaments, etc. Now, this would have gone over better if the store owner hadn't dropped this on us on a day where he hadn't just sold $500+ in 40k and other items (comics, RPG books, paint, etc) to our players. So we pulled out of the store, stopped hosting anything, and our player base stopped shopping there. Less than 6 months later the store had to move to a smaller location that will see far less traffic for the shop. While we knew they were having trouble before, I think our departure sped up the process of them losing their prime space (in a heavily trafficked shopping district).

Moral of my story is if the store is asking you to pay for nothing except space, there is always a better alternative. While they may not like it, online shopping plays just as much an important part of the hobby as the local brick and mortar.

Edit- Wow, after reading that, the store owner sounds like a someone I would never shop from anyway. What a ****.

I buy most of my stuff online for a simple reason, I buy Forge World models. Anytime I buy paints it comes from a local store.Thing is, I can't buy my army offline, any store that would reject me from playing because I bought my army online would not only stop seeing me, but any player in my friend circle, had they bought their army there or not.

I know of one store that makes you pay for table usage, 5$ per hour I believe. They never got me buying there or playing there, it's very simple: I can buy at the same price at other stores and I can play at those stores too, without an hourly fee.

If a store rejects a player because he hasn't bought his army there, they reject any player that come from other stores and players that just moved in town not only those who bought their armies online.

I have no problem with someone having those policies, I simply won't shop there. I simply do not understand how they can be profitable on the long run.

Thats just stupid. Sucks to be u

I can understand where the policy comes from. I can also agree with it to a point. But in my hometown I have stopped playing at Jesters cap because of the owner.

One time I asked to use a copy of their codex for one quick game. (I had left my codex in Rochester, about an hour away, which I HAD bought from that store a year ago) He politely said no so I opened my laptop & used a pdf. At this point he flipped out at me. Spouting how if I wasn't supporting the store I couldn't play. I had supported them two years ago when I lived in the area but now I live an hour away, I can't afford the $20 in gas every time I want something & I need to support rochesters shops too. I haven't been back since.

Honestly I think the policies of "buy here play here" are bad for business in the long run. I wouldn't be opposed to a flat fee as long as it was reasonable & the table quality good.

As a side note apparently the owner has realized the error of his old practices (Now that Niagara hobby sells warhammer & at 20-25% off MSRP) but I still refuse to go there, I'd rather drive the extra 10 minutes to go somewhere I feel appreciated, even If I only order 2-3 things a year.

I guess a lot of gaming shops don't realise how important it is to have customers in the shop, even if they don't buy much. I know I wouldn't have gone into my first GW if I hadn't seen people playing, modeling, ect...

I buy a lot of my models online, but when I go into a shop I occasionally buy things, this isn't usually a planned purchase but after I talk with other gamers I get the urge to buy something. I wouldn't be in the shop to spend the money if I wasn't able to talk and play.

A lot of people i know don't have anywhere else to play other than stores, if the store starts putting people off playing there they will just stop buying anything.

I personaly think the best idea would be a minimal charge just to get enough to cover the upkeep of the facilities. Make it clear your not trying to make money and that it will go towards making it a nicer place to play and people will be a lot more accepting. It isn't that expensive anyway, my gaming club only costs £2 a meeting and thats having to hire a hall as well as maintain terrain, a shop shouldn't be trying to make money from charging for tables.

I get it. Do I think it'll work? Nope. But it's his right. I think, from reading what is above anyway, it has more to do with that local scene that was mentioned and spends money in his store having issues getting playing space/time for people he sees never make a purchase. And obviously he's had some problems with people abusing his tables and scenery. If he has a large enough customer base already they'll probably pay to get exclusive rights to gaming space that has been pushing them out.

But he probably shouldn't make rules he can't enforce such as the no online armies....Oh well.

One store near has a monthly membership program. The membership program, however, is more like a premium fee. You get access to things like a free board game rental every month, discounts and special sales, and unlimited use of the pool tables and RPG room they normally charge an hourly fee for. Customers are still allowed to come into the store and game without being members.

On another note, though I've bought my armies online for the most part, if I go into the store and paint for a few hours, even though they have things set up at the paint stations to use, I will buy the colors I need if it is not already something I have in my kit rather than using theirs because I feel that I want to make sure their space is still available for me to use in the future when I have more time to play.

What an ass. Seriously, as a student who lives somewhere new every 4 months this issue becomes a big problem in some cases. I feel bad showing up at a local store with 2000pts painted and just playing but I'm not about to start a new army or buy something I don't need just to make myself a "customer". Now that there are a ton of places to buy stuff online for less, LGS's really only have one draw: The playing space. Without that they are just more expensive and less convenient. Seems like someone is getting too GW in their diet.

The FLGS that I play at is..well, friendly. I buy my models used or open box on e-bay and buy all my modeling related materials from the FLGS (paint, glue, bases, etc.) I figure the $10-$20 per visit should be plenty of compensation for my taking up of the owner's space for the 3 hours I'm there. I also drop change or $1 for use of AB and the store's printer.

Maybe if the OPs store owner were more willing to discount, people wouldn't be shopping so much online. Why pay full price for something when you don't have to?

If it ever became an issue, I'd just play at my house or my friend's house because I hardly ever play against anyone else anyway.

Personally, I think a more viable business strategy would be to charge some sort of membership but then give discounts equal to the amount paid....sort of insurance that a certain amount would be spent in the store each month (ie. a $10 membership/month and $10 off the first purchase each month using a punch card or something).

just2fierce wrote:wtf??? is this ridiculous or what?????really??? I honestly can't believe I saw this and it is a store only 1.5 hours away from me

thoughts? input?

What is ridiculous is the over the top negative reaction you have, your absurd internet speak says almost all that's necessary to understand your opinion on this matter. People who run stores do it as a job, and probably an investment, expecting it to be free is entitlement minded drivel. Or perhaps you don't deserve to be indignant if we all decided to berate you for not allowing us to come play in your home with your toys for free. Stop being a child.

4M2A wrote:I guess a lot of gaming shops don't realise how important it is to have customers in the shop, even if they don't buy much.... Make it clear your not trying to make money and...

I guess a lot of gamers don't realize if stores don't make money then there wont be anywhere to play. Actually there's no point to having people who don't buy things in a shop (unless they are employees) and of course they are trying to make money, doesn't everyone who runs a store? This quote from the store owner makes the point really well:

just2fierce wrote:Bowling alleys don't let you play free because you bought a ball. Theaters don't let you watch movies free because you bought popcorn...

If you made your own meals and went to a restaurant and sat down to eat them what do you think would happen?

derek wrote:Edit- Wow, after reading that, the store owner sounds like a someone I would never shop from anyway. What a ****.

After reading that you sound just like one of the belligerent entitlement minded miscreants this was aimed at! I want to find out who the store owner is so I can mail order some product from him. It's sad so many belligerent nerds have forced him into a decision like this.

I'll also say this, if you're reading this thread and siding with the op you're the kind of gamer who gives us a bad name. Perhaps a hobby you can afford would suit you better?

Maybe if the OPs store owner were more willing to discount, people wouldn't be shopping so much online. Why pay full price for something when you don't have to?

I call bull on this.

My old FLGS ran a 30% off "membership"(I use the term loosely here--because you didn't pay anything for it. It was just if they'd had you in there multiple times or you showed up for events occasionally, you had it automatically) for anything you bought through them, and an extra 10% knocked off anything you preordered through them. They also did something where, when a new army was being released, anyone who bought that army book/codex and models for that army got that extra 10%(usually only for preorders) tacked on to their 30% off.

And people still bought online, despite the store being in a convenient location, the staff being absurdly friendly and the store having plenty of space to actually just sit down and work on your stuff right then and there.

just2fierce wrote:

Anyone ever heard of your local gaming store charging memberships in order to...

Yes I have heard of that actually, a very common practice, it's called 'cover charge' but only in special gaming stores for adults called 'bars' and a special game called 'pool'. I think you can look these up on Wikipedia.

I've seen this argument many a time, and sometimes wonder about it... but from 2 different perspectives:

I used to run a gaming club - We got charged about £10 per hour to hire the premises we were in, so all members were required to pay £2 for a 2 hour session - theres times we were up, and many times we were down, so it was really required pay for table space, as there was no other source of income to fund the quiet weeks.

Now I know this isnt quite the argument that this thread is on about (a gaming club vs using tables inside a store) but from being involved in the mangement of a store (this is UK specifically... I have a feeling that the price of rent and land is much cheaper in the states, but lets see)

The shop costs £7,000 per year in rent. The gas, electric, rates, insurance etc all add up on top of that... as a guess in the region of an actual cost of £10,000 per year.

Putting gaming tables up takes away from space that you can have saleable items on display - whilst its not a direct limiter on what you can take in, the more things you have on display the more attractive to the average consumer the store becomes.

But heres the real killer... to get the £10,000 per year costs covered, you need to sell £30,000 of actual product when you work out just how much you make on your sales. At that point, you arent even paying yourself a wage, so youre effectively doing it out of the kindness of your heart, and worrying about how you pay your mortgage.

If your store is full to the brim of people playing games, that tends to push away casual browsers who wouldnt want to come into a packed shop... theres a fine line with this in that you need to have the shop looking busy to generate interest in the passing public, but you dont want it so busy that you push those people away too.

Making the money to keep afloat becomes a real concern, especially when most people would gladly come to your store for 2-3 hours, play a game and either leave without buying anything, or occasionally spending £15-£20 on a boxed set every now and again.

Im sure arguments like this could have economics experts debating for weeks...

It sounds as if the owner has a loyal customer base that are suffering as a result of people walking in, using the tables, damaging the tables, and walking out.

If I was running a FLGS and this was happening, I'd be annoyed. Particularly as the message suggests that users aren't treating his terrain with respect.

The owner is running a business. He can do what he likes, provided he doesn't discriminate on race, sex, sexuality, religion etc. I assume he's prepared to lose the casual custom in the name of preserving the regular attenders. Fair enough.

I've known FLGSs that have a back room for gaming, for which they charge a set fee. Maybe a more diplomatic way of implementing this would have been a flat charge, discounted for members.

Similarly, enforce the "in-store armies only" store by providing a higher level membership for people who spend a certain amount a month.

That's what I'd do anyway, make the benefits positive, rather than explicitly punishing those who don't play along. But I'm not a shop owner.

A membership to use terrain and table space sounds fine. The part about buying online is draconian and will probably lose them business, not to mention unenforceable. However, in order to pay for boards, terrain, materials, etc and of course to pay the bills, I'd be totally and completely fine with being charged a membership fee to use such items.

Yeah, if we're talking stores like the one I visited in Olathe Kansas when I was there or my buddies place Game Ogre in Northridge Cali then I'd have no problem pitching in for them to build/maintain awesome terrain and a good atmosphere. The sense of entitlement is a bit much from the OP. While I don't think the way the owner is going about it is the right way it's compeltely understandable from his written statements why he's doing it.

The last time I looked into the cost of retail space it was £3,000 to £6,000 per month, let alone per year.

That was in Richmond, Surrey, where there used to be a GW shop until it closed for lack of profits.

I agree with Vaktathi.

derek wrote: While they may not like it, online shopping plays just as much an important part of the hobby as the local brick and mortar.

Edit- Wow, after reading that, the store owner sounds like a someone I would never shop from anyway. What a ****.

Wrong, actually. And provably so.

This, contrary to many beliefs is an incredibly social hobby. The town I currently live in has a GW, and has had for...erm...15ish years. And do you know what? Every single person I know in this town (thats a couple of hundred at least) I know either directly or indirectly via that shop. It is the common denominator. Simple as. NO website can offer that. Not a single one. No, not even Facebook, unless you are a friend gathering cretin obsessed with having a higher number of 'friends' even though you've likely never met 90% of them.

THAT is why Bricks and Mortar stores are the life blood of the Wargames Hobby. It's how you meet new opponents. It's where you brush up or even learn skills. It is very literally the common ground. The internet is a useful wing of the Hobby Community, but if somehow the interwebs went 'poof' and disappeared right now, the Wargames Hobby would continue. If every Brick and Mortar store somehow went 'pooof' right now, the Hobby as a whole is well and truly buggered.

Kilkrazy wrote:The last time I looked into the cost of retail space it was £3,000 to £6,000 per month, let alone per year.

That was in Richmond, Surrey, where there used to be a GW shop until it closed for lack of profits.

I agree with Vaktathi.

Oh yeah... the £7,000 per year is for a small shop off the main street away from any major commercial centres. In the North East where its usually a bit cheaper thankfully though.

And still only made about £12k in sales for the year so yeah... bit of a loss overall.

There was a game store I used to play at that would charge 10$ a month depending on how often you played in order to be able to play. Their gaming room wasen't apart of the store itself and was located around the corner, the fee was mainly to help him pay for the extra room since he rented it. But like I said it depended on how often you went, if you played every week you payed and if you went say once a month or once every few months you didn't have to pay.

As far as the online bit that seems pretty stupid IMHO. The store I played at did have it so you coulden't enter tournaments hosted by the store if you bought GW products from their competitor in town but no one ever did anyway because their selection was crap.

Augustus wrote:

derek wrote:Edit- Wow, after reading that, the store owner sounds like a someone I would never shop from anyway. What a ****.

After reading that you sound just like one of the belligerent entitlement minded miscreants this was aimed at! I want to find out who the store owner is so I can mail order some product from him. It's sad so many belligerent nerds have forced him into a decision like this.

I'll also say this, if you're reading this thread and siding with the op you're the kind of gamer who gives us a bad name. Perhaps a hobby you can afford would suit you better?

I don't think entitlement has anything to do with it other than I am entitled to take my business elsewhere than give my money to some douchey guy that isn't happy making multiple smaller sales and only wants your business for big items. That is his own words.

I don't see the problem. Sounds like the guy has real customers that can't play, and so might go elsewhere, because I bunch of leeches are hogging and damaging his tables.

Lomar your estimate is very low for where live. A space with enough room would cost at least £15k a year to keep the lights on and the doors open. About a £1000 a week in sales. I have both a GW and a FLGS local to me, I have no idea how the FLGS stays open.

I think the store owner has a point, but (IMO) he's going about it the wrong way.
No REASONABLE gamer should have a problem with a "pay to play" policy. A few bucks to hang out & use your stuff? Cool. No problem.

When he starts defining what you can and cannot do, though, he gets a bit ridiculous.
"Online? No. I didn't buy this online. MY Uncle Joe sent it to me from Kansas. Apparently, he got a good deal on it at a Flea market, and..."

So, then he's stuck himself with being forced to accept this potentially absurd story, or calling you out as a liar and potentially being wrong.

Eric

Paying to play isn't absurd in itself, it can be when you can get the same product prices and free tables to play elsewhere. If somewhere I like to play started having a fee of 10$ a month I'd probably pay during summer and stop playing during college, I'm not going to shell out 30$ during a period where I play 1-2 times in the whole 3 months.The real problem is with the "no-online" policy, guess what I asked for christmas this year: 40k models. Now, I'm not going to ask people around me to go to that specific store if they want to buy me models, they buy where they want. When I'll enter the store with those new tanks I got for christmas, how will the owner know if I got the models from there? Will I have to describe my friends and family who bought me models to the clerk? That's the problem. The policy in itself might be full of good will for local players but it has great potential for scaring any newcomer from the store and throwing in a bad atmosphere, and when those vets stop playing there the customer base will go down.

Stop comparing pool with warhammer, a miniature store sells models and has tables to play on them, free or not. A pool bar with a 2-5$ cover has beer for sale with tables to play pool, free or not. The difference is, to start playing pool I didn't spend hundreds or thousands of dollars on equipment. And any local warhammer store that starts selling beer will get me to pay cover right away.

Anyhow, we all should encourage the place we play at if we like it, anybody who doesn't like where he plays needs to find another venue. If you think X or Y rule is dumb just go elsewhere, they don't need your money if they make you unhappy.

Mr Mystery wrote:

derek wrote: While they may not like it, online shopping plays just as much an important part of the hobby as the local brick and mortar.

Edit- Wow, after reading that, the store owner sounds like a someone I would never shop from anyway. What a ****.

Wrong, actually. And provably so.

You didn't offer any proof in your statement. Just personal experience. In an age where any relative/parent with an email account and a credit card can shop for hobby stuff online, not pay sales tax if the store isn't in the same state, and get their kid/you EXACTLY what they want because guess what, they have a direct link, on top of not having to deal with traffic, then online sales DO play a large and important part of the hobby. Does online shopping promote the social aspect? No, but I don't think anyone made that claim.

I'm all for buying from the FLGS, if they're supportive of their community at large. Everyone buying from them is a customer, doesn't matter if they're spending $5.00 or spending $50.00, they all deserve the same respect and treatment.

Hulksmash wrote: Yeah, if we're talking stores like the one I visited in Olathe Kansas when I was there

There is only one in Olathe, and it's probably the best store I've ever gamed at. In the decade plus now I've been visiting that store (less frequently now that I've moved about 45 mins away) the one constant is that the owner genuinely cares about providing a nice play for customers to play. It's why whenever I'm out that way I stop in and toss them some business. Crafting loyalty like that, and not forcing it goes a long way.

Kanluwen wrote:

Maybe if the OPs store owner were more willing to discount, people wouldn't be shopping so much online. Why pay full price for something when you don't have to?

I call bull on this.

My old FLGS ran a 30% off "membership"(I use the term loosely here--because you didn't pay anything for it. It was just if they'd had you in there multiple times or you showed up for events occasionally, you had it automatically) for anything you bought through them, and an extra 10% knocked off anything you preordered through them. They also did something where, when a new army was being released, anyone who bought that army book/codex and models for that army got that extra 10%(usually only for preorders) tacked on to their 30% off.

And people still bought online, despite the store being in a convenient location, the staff being absurdly friendly and the store having plenty of space to actually just sit down and work on your stuff right then and there.

If that's the case, I'd love to find out where they're buying because the best discount I can find online is 25% and free shipping over $75. If there's some place that can beat 30%, I haven't seen it yet and want to know where it is. I can tell you that I'd never stray from my FLGS if they offered that kind of discount; the best they've ever done for me is 10% which is fine but doesn't inspire me to spend all my hobby $ there.

Both of my FLGSs sold memberships for discounts. But I have heard of a couple of stores charging a table fee. One had a $5 table fee or a $5 purchase requirement. As I have said in previous posts, there are a lot of people who purchase all their stuff online, then complain about the condition of the local store. Remember, if your butt sits for free in a store that you aren't paying for, stop complaining that they don't cater to your needs!

@Hulksmash: Who are you? PM Me.

I've also made Game Ogre my first choice store these days.

The owner, Brian, is awesome, to the point of providing drinks and even pizza on occasion.

It's very rare that I go in there without finding something to drop some money on and I'll happily order through them if it's not something they have in stock.

I do wonder about the economics of the Friday Night Magic crowd, though.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
I love how people are turning their nose up at a 10% discount as if it were nothing at all.

If you got 10% off everything, everywhere you went, it would be the equivalent of getting a 15% pay rise.

I don't think too many of us would sneer at that!

+1 on the taking your own food to a restaurant comment as well...

agnosto wrote:

Kanluwen wrote:

Maybe if the OPs store owner were more willing to discount, people wouldn't be shopping so much online. Why pay full price for something when you don't have to?

I call bull on this.

My old FLGS ran a 30% off "membership"(I use the term loosely here--because you didn't pay anything for it. It was just if they'd had you in there multiple times or you showed up for events occasionally, you had it automatically) for anything you bought through them, and an extra 10% knocked off anything you preordered through them. They also did something where, when a new army was being released, anyone who bought that army book/codex and models for that army got that extra 10%(usually only for preorders) tacked on to their 30% off.

And people still bought online, despite the store being in a convenient location, the staff being absurdly friendly and the store having plenty of space to actually just sit down and work on your stuff right then and there.

If that's the case, I'd love to find out where they're buying because the best discount I can find online is 25% and free shipping over $75. If there's some place that can beat 30%, I haven't seen it yet and want to know where it is. I can tell you that I'd never stray from my FLGS if they offered that kind of discount; the best they've ever done for me is 10% which is fine but doesn't inspire me to spend all my hobby $ there.

I'd love to know where/what crazy world they were buying from too, to be honest. They mostly bought from Neal(as he was the biggest US online retailer during the timeframe where the FLGS ran that) and/or feeBay, but it seemed like they just weren't that bright about how they spent their money.

In general, I'm not against the idea of pay to play/memberships; although, the store would have to offer something substantial in terms of quality/service to make it worthwhile to me. If the store didn't really exceed the quality of terrain I have at home, I probably wouldn't bother going there. Having a wait time on tables would be unacceptable to me. I'd also stop buy from the FLGS entirely, as I'd no longer be playing there. I'd pay beaucoup bucks to play on a full urban board, though. I love me some sexy, sexy ruins.
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The "no online armies" bit from the OP seems a tad strange. How does someone with a half online half store bought army fit in? What about someone with a fully store bought regular army but an online purchased Warhound titan? The purpose of the "no internet" armies is reasonable, but, as others have said, enforcement will get squirrely.

I don't get the consternation in the OP. The store owner can do whatever he wants, and you (the customer) can do whatever you want. Hell, the store being discussed even has tables open to the public.
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Kanluwen wrote:I'd love to know where/what crazy world they were buying from too, to be honest. They mostly bought from Neal(as he was the biggest US online retailer during the timeframe where the FLGS ran that) and/or feeBay, but it seemed like they just weren't that bright about how they spent their money.

Maybe the they had friends who worked in a gamestore who would allow them to buy at cost? I used to know a guy who had a friend who knew a guy.

Another problem with the "no internet" army thing is .. what if you're a customer who has already spent a ton of money at the store? Then you decide to buy a full army at like 70% off from ebay. Just sounds like a guilt trip to me

If you spent much more than the average customer you're free to do whatever you want. Or what about the person who already HAS an army? Yet buys stuff from the store

So many loopholes and questions. However, as the recession gets worse players will find cheaper ways to fuel their hobby. Unfortunately this is a very expensive hobby and people still want to play it. This problem is very prevalent in college towns where players feel 0 obligation towards their local store because they're leaving for the summer or wont be there for more than a year anyway

I wouldnt mind paying a monthly fee, but random rules just make you look like an ass which forces people to leave

I see no problem with this. If it was a good place to game I'd pay to support it.

Could the OP provide a link to the site he took his quotes from? I'd like to see them in context and to see what game shop this is.

The quotes from the store owner sound like someone who is frustrated, but has the wrong idea. Either charge for space or don't, but trying to put alot of limits, rules with loopholes, and rantings online just makes you sound desperate and that will not endear you to customers.

If the owner really thinks that eliminating or limiting free gaming space will be good for buiness, a better solution would have been to simply say something to the effect of:

"Use of the gaming area will now require a 20 dollar monthly membership, or a five dollar purchase on that day. Thank you for your continued support durring these tough economic times"

I completely understand where the FLGS owner is coming, from but whining is unprofessional. Keep it simple, make a business decision, implement it and leave the personal ramblings out of it.

BloodQuest wrote:
I do wonder about the economics of the Friday Night Magic crowd, though.

Being a part of both the FNM crowd and the Warhammer ones, I have to say I see a lot more money flowing from the FNM players then the warhammer. The investment in warhammer is large, but for magic, its a never-ending stream. If the FNM is a draft style event, which many are, it's a huge cashflow. ~20+ people paying nearly 15 dollars each every friday night..not half bad. Add in the players that then buy boxes and extra packs for other events...and I see it being more of a "keep the doors open" then warhammer. The players are also more willing and eager to spend (imo) because they have such a well supported/designed/organized tournament system...but that's another beast entirely

My .02 on this...the guy running the store sounds unfortunately like many I've run in to. It's not that their idea is wrong, it's that they've got god awful social skills and business sense. You can tell from reading it that he's frustrated, and rightfully so, but posting up something like that which just reads as unprofessional and draconian won't help him make money. It'll make a lot of people turn their nose up at him and walk out. His delivery is what needs work, and the internet policy is just...as many have said...a nice dream from the B&M perspective, but in the end, a losing battle.

That being said, I don't think it's unfair to charge a fee for table/space usage. I love having a free place to game (not that I do so much anymore...working on that), but when I did, even though I bought my armies primarily online (the stores stock just often lacked what I wanted) I still made sure that I spent a fair amount of money regularly enough to support the store. If someone charged a fee, I'd likely feel less obligated to buy from them much and would instead consider the fee my financial support for the 1-2 times a month I used their space.

Mind you...this is all very dependent on the fee that he chooses. If it's unrealistic, no one will pay it of course, and he'll just lose a lot of business.

What about a business model like this where theres a fee to play for the day (say 5 dollars, which feels reasonable for me, its all profit of course, not like buying a 5 dollar model would be). I pay 5 dollars, I get to use the space. If I make a purchase of 25 dollars or more, he takes 5 dollars off of it to refund me my fee for shopping at his store. If not, he just keeps the fee.

If theres 10-20 people that come in and play throughout the course of that day, he's made 50-100 dollars of profit, which in actual sales is probably more like 100-200, just for the use of his tables. Seems like this could help out quite a bit while not breaking anyones back.

He IS frustrated and genuinely cares about the gaming community. He has a small group of leaches that either play with toys they "converted" on the cheap or buys everything off-site. He also has a great group of players that he cares about.

Players that will have no place to play if he goes under.

In the midst of the current economic woes he has chosen to invest in the store and make it an even better place to play and hang out. He bought several VERY nice tables (Adepticon/Games Day level) for us to play on to encourage more in-store traffic. Justifying the membership fee he's proposing.

As far as the online buyers go, he's the store owner and is there a large percentage of the time. He knows who buys from him and who doesn't. It's not an exact science but if he knows you've never bought a blister in there but are there 4 days a week then he doesn't need you.

This policy is not for the casual gamer in town looking for a game. Most of my group are an hour or more away from this store (I am 1.25 hrs away) and we are welcome at any time. This policy is for those that treat the store like their store but don't actually patronize it.

Here's a shot of just ONE of the tables we get to paly on for our $10/mo.



Fierce, for shame, jumping to ranty conclusions before just talking to the guy. He has a forum and a thread specifically asking for input on this topic for a reason.


Augustus, sent you a PM!

I'm a regular at the store discussed.

You're completely missing the backstory on why the policies are the way they are. Apparently you're not a regular there, havent discussed the policies with the owner face to face, and really haven't done anything except misinterpret the local forum postings.

Before you get all up in arms about how it's not fair, blah blah, etc etc, perhaps you should talk to the store owner face to face? He's a very nice guy, it's a great store, and the policies are quite reasonable if you know the back story.

As I explained to you already on the forums for the store, the policy about internet-purchased armies doesn't really apply to people in your situation. As I explained to you, I don't think the owner is going to have any objections to your playing there. As I explained to you, common sense should be applied.


But hey, thanks for flying off the handle without bothering to talk with the owner. Then going on DakkaDakka, bad-mouthing my local gaming store, and stirring up a bunch of drama over nothing.

SlaveToDorkness wrote:He IS frustrated and genuinely cares about the gaming community. He has a small group of leaches that either play with toys they "converted" on the cheap or buys everything off-site. He also has a great group of players that he cares about.

Players that will have no place to play if he goes under.

In the midst of the current economic woes he has chosen to invest in the store and make it an even better place to play and hang out. He bought several VERY nice tables (Adepticon/Games Day level) for us to play on to encourage more in-store traffic. Justifying the membership fee he's proposing.

As far as the online buyers go, he's the store owner and is there a large percentage of the time. He knows who buys from him and who doesn't. It's not an exact science but if he knows you've never bought a blister in there but are there 4 days a week then he doesn't need you.

This policy is not for the casual gamer in town looking for a game. Most of my group are an hour or more away from this store (I am 1.25 hrs away) and we are welcome at any time. This policy is for those that treat the store like their store but don't actually patronize it.

Here's a shot of just ONE of the tables we get to paly on for our $10/mo.



Fierce, for shame, jumping to ranty conclusions before just talking to the guy. He has a forum and a thread specifically asking for input on this topic for a reason.

1) Those tables look awesome
2) The bit I can see of the rest of the store seems to have very well stocked shelves, another +
3) 10 bucks a month is extremely reasonable for a fee. I was thinking 5 bucks a day for playing/using tables was a reasonable amount.

Id pay to play on those! I think the common consensus is to just charge a fee, but dont impose model restrictions. In pittsburgh we have two stores.. One is a very small shop with strict model requirements to play there and another is a very large store with no requirements. Virtually everyone ditched the small store due to silly random rules that hindered having fun

Hello,
I help run a game store locally, and we have alot of what I would call leeches, now that said let me explain, thease are a group of people that consistantly play rpgs, using our space, and might buy a couple of sodas from the fridge, hell one of them started bringing his own (they will be there for up to 4 hrs on average). They also have a bad habit of using the store copys of items or in some cases thinking it is ok to pull items form the shelves to look at the stats. We also have some card players who thought it was ok to sell thier cards in the store ( I chose to inform them that was not permited in the store ). As for wargamers, it is not hard to tell who got thier stuff from where for now (fairly small group, and they brought it from already having some of it, but will order if they need something), I built the terrain, and every one of them has offered to help build some and has even given some old stuff to the store they had (got a nifty ac bridge that way ), and they work ouut fairly well. The card players are a funny lot, they take up a ton of space and have some lothesome habits when it comes to tossing thier stuff everywhere. However if a new set comes out they will buy it, and then thier purchases are done for a bit as they get what they need, so other then new card games coming out, they are fairly cyclic. Is a membership fee in order, I think so, especially for the RPG lot, as they are not really supporting the store in any real manner. Thanks for the idea.

Regards,
Carl

Oh I totally agree about RPG players.. By and large Ive rarely seen them spend more than 10$ combined on any given day. There certainly should be a membership fee for them. Almost every DnD book is available in 10 mins on torrent sites, so I imagine tons dont even buy the books

I to have encountered stores that use the pay to play policy but only in tourneyments of some kind, I would never pay to play ever everytime I wanted to play Warhammer in a store, unless it was a tourneyment. I have even worked in a gamming store for 5 yrs and even then the pay to play was frowned on buy the Owner.

I have played many yrs since the start of D&D, the only time I had a problem was at the Adventures Guild in Cali, a few years back. And we had a D&D game sceduled on the calender for atleast 2 months in advance. We were very upset to loose are table space (thats 1 4x8 table and 6 chairs) to a Warhammer gamming group (The stores little click group), hech we have been playing and buying in this store for some of us for yrs. We felt we were wronged as we had that space held in advance, only to get the boot on are regular gamming night (saterday 3pm to 8pm every week). We stoped going to that store to play, as for online buying figures/armies I could care less about were you got it from.

It goes to show that some people can be very rude in the store for the slightest thing, or say something that gets taken wrong and blown outta praportion. If the store charges to play at their tables, play at your house or a friends for free. They cry and whine like babies because your army is not purchased from that store, "Don't play with them". I have seen it all in my time gamming even fist fights for what peoples charicters have said in charicter of that game.

At my house, if you act a fool your asked to leave. In my store you act a fool, the Cops haul you out and your banned. Just because people buy online there is no need to act a fool. Play and have fun, I really think in my opinion (no insult to others) that to charge anyone to play at store provided gamming tables. That it should be free (why is that they will buy there and return) return buisiness is the life blood of these stores, if custumers are faced with paying to play they may not return. Free play is always better because the customers are happier if treated nice and are comfortable, not forced to pay additional charges.

Don't get me started on the "lookie lose" people that come to the store all the time and buy nothing and have their noses in a game book. Hello the store is not a library, and thats why I always shrink wrapped everything before they hit the shelfs. These people need to be charged a reading fee. Well I rambled far to long this is just my opinion and not ment to flame anyone or upset them....thanks for your time.

while it's not unreasonable that a store asks you to pay a fee for using their table space, it would raise my eyebrow if they did that and didn't have something nice to offer. If all they don't have nice facilities and eye catching terrain, then don't expect alot of people to take you up on the offer. there was a store that i went to once that did have nice terrain and charged a monthly fee to join their gaming club with access to the tables in back but i had to pass after reading the stipulations in their 15 page membership agreement contract (not kidding). first off, the fee was a bit much IMO ($15 not applied to store credit, which i would have been fine with if it had been applied) and they required you to pitch in cleaning up, including the bathrooms! i always put away terrain that i use and tidy up my gaming space but i'll be damned if a store is going to charge me to use the table and then make me vacuum and scrub the toilets.

Don't get me started on the "lookie lose" people that come to the store all the time and buy nothing and have their noses in a game book. Hello the store is not a library, and thats why I always shrink wrapped everything before they hit the shelfs. These people need to be charged a reading fee. Well I rambled far to long this is just my opinion and not ment to flame anyone or upset them....thanks for your time.

I can completely understand everything he's doing. And while the no-online armies thing is a bit too much of a blanket statement for some people, I think the intent there is easily understood and reasonable. If you suddenly appear one day with a full army you didn't have before and didn't purchase from them, that's a lot of profit you just took out of his pocket, and expect to come and play at a store he's running largely for your benefit. If you keep expanding your army with units that he isn't selling you, I wouldn't expect him continue to extend to you the privelage of using his store to play.

Stores close when you don't support them. Actual stores have higher overhead than online, and as such can't always give such generous discounts if they don't have volume of sales to make up for it. If you buy your mini's online, from a competitor, or just say "I paid xxxx.xx USD/GBP/EUR/Whatever for my army, so I should be able to play whenever here for free!" you aren't contributing to the volume of sales, so you should expect to pay full price. And if you expect to play there, you should be willing to spend your money there. Not at The War Store, not Wayland, not Ebay. You aren't playing in Neil's store, the person keeping the lights on and the tables up and running is the one you should be buying from.

My FLGS is closing at the end of this month, the only one near town. I'm very used to getting discounts on my mini's. Spoiled really, I lived within walking distance of a store that sold all GW products at 20% off regularly and about 20 minutes from another with a really cool owner and some tables with a 15% discount and an increased one for large orders (With a down payment, of course.) for the first 5 years or so of my wargaming. This one couldn't afford the discount, and while we had a fairly loyal base, most of us who were really loyal to the owner were a little down on our luck money wise. Minimum wage workers and career students with bills to pay can't really afford much Warhammer stuff. But we still bought everything new from him at full price with no complaints. We couldn't do much, but we did what we could to help keep the guy in business.


tl;dr: If you don't want to pay your FLGS for your mini's or to play there, build yourself a table and play at home. Don't expect them to extend the privelage of using their store to people who can't be bothered to help keep it open where they can.

To be clear, this is not a "Pay to Play" policy. It is a "Pay to Play on premium badass tables we paid an assload for and intend to maintain" policy.

As explained in the pasted text, the new tables take up a lot of the space, space that will be reserved for actual customers. Other space may be utilized by anyone, but on a first-come-first-served basis.

The venting about online purchases is just a perk of it.

When I played D&D minis there would be fees for table use in the stores..however the store would usually put more than half of it into a price pot for a tournament style giveaway that night. In this case it feels both players and the store is showing their appreciation to eachother and has been one of my favorite ways to play any game. Too bad WoTC pretty much killed D&D mini's =/

Ghiest1 wrote:Don't get me started on the "lookie lose" people that come to the store all the time and buy nothing and have their noses in a game book. Hello the store is not a library, and thats why I always shrink wrapped everything before they hit the shelfs. These people need to be charged a reading fee. Well I rambled far to long this is just my opinion and not ment to flame anyone or upset them....thanks for your time.

Sadly these people are not even lookie lose, as they do not buy thier books there and take up 2 tables for 4 hour streches. They dont even come close to spending 10$ a month, with the exception of one player. I would like to know where to get the shrink wrap though, that would not damage the books .

Regards,
Carl

Don't get me started on the "lookie lose" people that come to the store all the time and buy nothing and have their noses in a game book. Hello the store is not a library, and thats why I always shrink wrapped everything before they hit the shelfs. These people need to be charged a reading fee. Well I rambled far to long this is just my opinion and not ment to flame anyone or upset them....thanks for your time.

Also after seeing how much dedicationg the owner has to the game with hisstock (from what I can see) I can see why he would wish some sort of help from the people he is tryin to accomidate..

Edit: Although the you have to buy here to play it here is a bit odd and off putting. Heck who knows if you traded that army you Bought there for the army you have now..hmmm do not like that rule

quote-fail

I have played at the store being discussed for about 6 years now and it is one of the best I have ever played in. I totally agree with the owner's decision to have a membership to play on the awesome tables he recently acquired. Beyond the one pictured above there are 4 more made by the same person and they are absolutely gorgeous.

The whole online army stems from a few people who have played in the store for quite a bit of time but buy nothing, NOTHING, there. They do not support the store in the least and simply take the space for granted. If they think the X% they saved by buying online is so awesome they should try playing there too.

The point is: if one plays at a store enough to be considered a regular but won't spend, say, 10 bucks a month to help keep that place open then why are they there anyway?

OP is having an episode. Here's a couple more reasons of why we pay a tiny amount to play:

So where is this store? Cause if I'm ever in town I'd pay the fee just to get a game or two in on those. I'm not a huge fan of set-terrain tables but those sure are pretty.

To be honest he might want to look into a bit more modular terrain for the tables. Speaking from personal experience when we had some amazing tables when I worked for Workshop but they got boring to play on week after week since nothing on them could be changed.

OP: really? If you are one of those guys not spending money at this shop, then why would you even think you can just show up and play there, especially on tables constructed as such?

And as much as it is a person's right to find the best deal possible for their GW products, it is just as much a right for a store owner to entice folks to spend at his store. This looks like a way of trying to compete with online retailers in order to stay solvent.

Considering how poorly gamers in general tend to treat shop terrain, I think this is a more than reasonable approach. This terrain is way beyond any LGS terrain collection. This looks to even rival GW Battlebunkers.

If folks are so intent on saving money online, that is fine. But don't begrudge a store owner for coming up with ways to further his own business and cater to his customers, you know, the ones who are spending money in his store.

1st off I will preface this by saying like roadhouse, I have been frequenting the store in question for about 6 yrs. The store owner, roadhouse are really good friends of mine. So I get a little defensive about my store.

That out of the way.

I was ready to jump all over people on the 1st page and half, but I did my due diligence and kept reading. I am glad to see people come to their senses a bit about the fee. Now that it has been explained a little bit.

It was designed to help take care of some of the awesome terrain pieces that had been purchased to get people to go "holy crap that game looks sweet" and get into 40k, other GW games and Flames of War (the snow table is only for Flames) There are a few other more modular tables that are just as good looking as the imperial looking one too. So I am cool with paying the membership if it means continuing to have sweet looking terrain to play on. There are about 3 more tables that are for 1st come 1st server general use that anyone can play on with no fee. And plus the membership is only like 10 bucks a month, so don't go to McDonalds for lunch 2 times and boom you have it paid for.

The no "online purchased stuff" rule is really for people that are known offenders in our area who regularly buy the majority online and continue to come into the store to play. They buy drinks at the shop and call it support. We aren't asking people at the door "hey did you buy that army of Khorne online?", "if so we don't serve your kind here." It isn't like that at all. The owner just wants people that use our store a lot to support our store. If you want a place to play then you need to buy your stuff at the store. That's how the place stays open. I am sorry if some people don't understand that. All local store owners, believe it or not are there to at least break even on the space if not make money on it....shocker I know. We as gamers are not entitled to anything.

That is my little rant for today. Take it for whatever. I have no problem with paying a small fee to play on sweet tables and to keep the lights on at the store that I spend a ton of my time going to and hanging out at.

Hulksmash wrote:So where is this store? Cause if I'm ever in town I'd pay the fee just to get a game or two in on those. I'm not a huge fan of set-terrain tables but those sure are pretty.

To be honest he might want to look into a bit more modular terrain for the tables. Speaking from personal experience when we had some amazing tables when I worked for Workshop but they got boring to play on week after week since nothing on them could be changed.

It's in middle TN, Hulk. PM me if you're ever in the area. The other new tables not pictured are modular. Lots of nice city ruins/buildings and a very cool desert table with buttes and a river. As I said, some real Games Day quality stuff.

Oh, and the store has a tournament almost every month and sponsors two of the best events in the South. Both of which I might add the OP attends regularly.

Oz & Roadhouse, glad to see the store regulars coming to it's defense.

@OP.....You know I posted similar questions on their forum more just being devils advocate than anything else. The owner and many of the guys that play there are awesome and are credits to the hobby. My situation is that I hit this store maybe three times a year. I knew these questions would be asked so I jumped out there as a friend and posted it, making sure all the bases are covered. And they are. Alot of thought and discussion went into this. When I posted it was directly to the people who were making the decisions. You took it...flamed it....posted some quotes without doing enough to get the whole picture and page one is a rant fest. And to top all that off you go and post on the Battle for Stones River thread "ready to pre-register"

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/331979.page#2257080


Now we have gone almost two full pages without you (OP) posting anything else. Don't start something and not be there to finish it. The owner very quietly works hard to do alot, not for just this hobby but for a lot of others. He has my respect taking a stand on issue that many stores deal with. I would be a hypocrit to denounce people who buy on the internet. I buy all my bits and older stuff off the net. A good quarter of each of my two armies are internet bought. But I support my stores. I am into alot more than 40k and I buy a ton of that from my local store as it is.

Pick a side and stick with it or if you have changed your stance say so. Don't flame and then run away. That is internet cowardice at it finest.

I also try to game at the store in question whenever I can--when school, work, wife permits that is...

It should say something that all kinds of people are stepping up to defend the store owner in his decision. And you know what? He's not laying down some draconian law and saying my way or the highway out of the blue. This is a local matter that the owner has brought before his customer base on our online forum. He did that to gauge reaction, get input, and answer questions. In the end, the owner loves the games, really enjoys most of the people, and wants to provide a place to bring it all together. People like the OP fly off the handle without all the facts and run to gossip like a girl in grade school. Instead, he could have posted his concerns on our forums like everyone else. But that takes a modicum of maturity and a willingness to see things through as Bikeninja said.

The owner is just trying to use common sense to keep his store running. If you're an out of town player who stops by and wants to get in a game, then that's VERY different from the leeches who buy armies online, show up on Tuesdays, Thursdays, and Saturdays, and never place terrain back in the terrain room properly if at all.

If anyone is ever coming through the middle TN area and would like a game in a great atmosphere, then PM me. I'm proud of our store, and I'm willing to show it off to anyone who will listen.

Yeah that is a little ridiculous. Nothing like completely distroying someones interest in table top wargaming. As if its not bad enough the models themselves are overpriced. Maybe they are just trying to encourage players to go home, get together with some friends and make their own table

Sorry for not posting, it was my step son's birthday yesterday and we just got up! I quite alot to say so I guess I will get started.....

I posted this thread because I have never heard of a store that charged "memberships" to use space in their FLGS. That being said, I really find the part about "purchasing" models online kind of harsh. I do get to this store when they run large events and almost everytime I get to visit my niece who is a student at MTSU.

I don't know any store that doesn't have it's fair share of "leeches" but even the "leeches" still have to buy stuff from time to time, however small it may be! I travel to alot of stores for a tournament here or a day of gamig there and ALWAYS purchase around 25 to 30 bucks worth of stuff wherever I go.

Yes my OP did say wtf? really? That is because I was very shocked that a store owner would have to go to such extreme measures, for whatever his reason might be. I mainly wanted to get input from gamers all around the US and overseas as well. I have only gamed in the south and in any store I have walked into there are "free" tables to play on with each stores best terrain/tables being available for anyone to use and I've never heard anything in the manner of "no online purchased armies allowed in store".

I have games at this stores events many times and have never met anything but nice people there, none I would consider "leeches" from talking to and playing with but I don't get a chance to game there regularly...

In both of my previous posts in this thread I haven't downed this store or the people there at all. That is far from how I feel about 99% of the gamers in the "BORO. I have a great time anytime attend the events there! I was just in shock when looking at the local msg boards and found this whole thing about charging memberships, I was curious how other gamers would react to their FLGS owner doing such a thing. Apparently, it is somewhat frequent in way more FLGS than I thought it would be.

It just seems rather extreme about the whole online army thing. Most of us have SERVERAL armies and I'm sure not a 1 of us bought every model, bit or paint used at our FLGS.

I 100% plan to attend any event these guys put on as they are awesome! If you look at what I have said on here, I never badmouthed anyone and did nothing aside from voicing my shock that a good store with good people felt the need to do such a thing!

P

Well done for replying!

I think we will understand your position better now.

I have to say I am still surprised that US gamers are so centred on stores. I would have thought with your big homes, and lots of church halls, space could easily be found elsewhere.

Space can easily be found elsewhere to play.

A reliable shop can't be.

I read as much of this as I could. I am the person the OP was posting about. It is my store he was discussing.
I am not trying to bleed my customers out. I simply feel if you are a customer of mine then you are more than welcome here. As the post said I have open tables for them. If you dont shop with me and never intend to. and you simply come up and play then I have no interest in letting you play here. I cant afford to allow non customers to take up space I provide for my customers. The membership is for specific tables. these are high quality expensive tables. the fee is hardly enough to get my money back. Simply a way to make people who want to play on them offset cost and make them understand if they break stuff they cant just act like it is no big deal.

I have been here for years providing a nice place to play. I provide many things free of charge that my customers love to use. I am glad that they do. They are also a very good group of people and many if not all are friends.

You say it is bad that I am finally saying it isnt ok to play when you provide nothing in return? is it ok to bowl for free? is it ok to go kart for free? is it ok to enter a gym and workout for free? No. So why is this different. At least I still allow free space to my real customers.

I am not even saying buy whole army. Think about it. Jumping straight in and criticizing me wasnt very smart at all. To be a paying customer here is fairly simple. Shop with us. No not Pepsi bottle and chips but really shop here.

If you play elsewhere that is good play there and support that store. Trust me if you dont support the shop you play in they may suffer or simply go away. You want more players then help your store get them. Isnt it your duty to do this if you want more? Technically the store is there for them to be a business. It just so happens most of us store owners love this hobby and all within it. So we strive to continue to make this better. I think maybe it is time for you to do the same. If you do already then stop complaining. We are all in this together.

One last thought. Did you ever consider calling me or coming by to discuss this. If you ever met me you would know I am easy to talk to about anything in this store.

To all of you who support your local stores I thank you and respect you in many ways.

One thing you may want to consider, Chris, is a way to stopgap the ever present eBayers.

Put up a notice that instead of someone selling their army on eBay...they can put it up for sale in a display case at your store. Take a small cut of the sale, and voila. The money's guaranteed to be coming back to you and the store community gets a bit of a reinvigoration.

SlaveToDorkness wrote:Here's a shot of just ONE of the tables we get to paly on for our $10/mo.

I wonder how much that table cost to build? Unless someone donated it then it's not unreasonable for the store to at least want to get their money back on it.

I've played at many stores and the ones with the best terrain and gaming areas charge for membership or table use. That's not unreasonable, the owner putting down all these stipulations and who is and isn't welcome is way over the top. I would never to go to a store like that.

I finally read all of this. I realize online only is very broad. my intention is not to create loopholes and whatnot. The fee is actually used to buy more high quality made tables. The tabes were extremely expensive. This will allow each year for us to provide them with more tables.

I actually like every player even if they use internet to buy their stuff. I just cant afford to provide them with space to play anymore. since i am effectively dividing the space with open play area and member area it will make it harder for players to always have gaming space. so in doing so the people who just come in and play and dont buy from us at all will have to suffer in that manner.

Happy Holiday everyone. I hate that I had to be dragged through the mud but things happen and I am sure it wasnt intended.

After seeing the pictures I can say that if my store had terrain like that I'd expect a fee to play on those tables too. I liked the idea of a $5 fee to play, but if you bought at least $25 of product, the fee was waived for the day. That sounds like a phenomenal idea. The internet-army rant probably wouldn't work too well, and the post suggesting the owner being P.O'd about internet-armies sounded bad, but the pay to play with an addendum of spending money counting as the "paying" is great-and that should also be the case for playing D&D because of the lack of materials after an initial buy, and same for M:TG. But with those, the store should provide playmats and dice for the cards to be used, and you pay to use them: if you buy your own cards, fees are waived. It sounds like a great idea doing it that way, and maybe the guys who go to the store who are on great terms with the manager can suggest these ideas that a poster before me suggested that I just elaborated on. Give it a go: sounds like it'll help in the long run.

P.S. My store has crappy tables and I provide terrain for half of them when they have tournaments because I have so much. If I was expected to pay to play there, I'd walk right out since I already do so much for the store (and work there and provide my models to the store free of charge if they need them-that's my way of paying) But for tables like this...you can bet I'd be walking in with a $5 in hand or $25 to spend in order to play on those!

edit-Chrispryor, seeing that you are the owner, I guess your loyal friends and customers don't need to tell you now what I had suggested from a previous poster as you can see yourself-and if I were ever in the area, I'd love to head to your store and play a game on one of those tables: they're beautiful. Keep up the nice appearance!

I am not POd. funny thing is I asked everyone. it wasnt some hey this is how it is. I simply asked for everyones ideas on this. We havent even set up membership yet. it is still written as a...what do you think about x type of thing.
So many people hate this dislike that. i would not go here and all that. so you are not open minded enough to come in and see it all and talk to me and then decide. I realize many of you dont live in this area and are simply ranting back. If you ever come through the area stop by and see for yourself. trust me these are great people and it is a good store.

My apologies Chris, I was just mentioning how the original post made you sound P.O'd-not that you actually were P.O'd-it's the problem with internet text-based speech. After hearing more of the situation, it sounds like a good idea to charge for a more "elite" setting and letting your serious, older and more mature players who have spent so much money on your product reap the reward of higher end tables (also keeps potentially disaster-bound children away from the high end product). Good luck, and I'm glad to see many of your customers approving of this idea and that you asked them their opinions first. I'm planning on opening my own hobby store some day...after I get situated with a full job and spouse, and topics like these help me plan how I will set mine up

I am all about supporting my FLGS. The guys that run it have done so for almost twenty years, and give me free run of the place. So I often go in an buy things from them(Be it a coke or new pieces) About two years ago they ran into trouble and could not pay their bills so I stepped up and payed the rent for them.(I am not suggesting people do this, this was a unique set of circumstances that happened at a good time for me financially. I was also in a very giving mood that day, and yes I personally payed the bill for them.)

Though before I found this place, I went to another independent retailer and when I walked in the guy said "You can play but make sure you buy something!" and I was like "Uh...thats not rude at all." and turned around and walked out.

no apology needed. i would never say that poontangler (nice name that is funny). it is always benefit of the doubt. talk to customer first then decide whatever. funny part is I am fighting person in real life martial arts and all that. yet i would never be mean to people here. gaming is such an awesome hobby I could not imagine trying to make it worse. i just felt some attempt at me making some light of all this was needed.
some of you may notice i dont use this board for even promoting my business events and such. but i didnt want to have it tarnished potentially either.

<---waves at Chris

<---Deathklokk

In the years I've played, I've been at three different stores, each with different takes on membership programs. The first was a tiny place with a single terrain table, and didn't have a program to speak of. The second had several, but after a year or so started to charge players to use their gaming facilities. The third has a member program which entails a 10% store discount for $20 bucks a year. For any Warhammer player, that's a terriffic deal. Anyways, only in one circumstance could I maybe justify charging players to play at a store: if people aren't buying models at the location. If everyone is just bringing armies from elsewhere to use there.

chrispryor wrote: so you are not open minded enough to come in and see it all and talk to me and then decide. I realize many of you dont live in this area and are simply ranting back.

chrispryor wrote:some of you may notice i dont use this board for even promoting my business events and such. but i didnt want to have it tarnished potentially either.

chrispryor wrote:Happy Holiday everyone. I hate that I had to be dragged through the mud but things happen and I am sure it wasnt intended.

i think you and your players are overreacting more than a bit here. was the OP a bit ZoMG!?! in his post? yes, but ultimately he was asking a question of whether this is "ridiculous" and the general answer in the thread was that it isn't if the store is providing a service over and above generic sparse terrain, which you wholeheartedly are. no one was "dragging you through the mud" or "tarnishing" your reputation or frankly even ranting after the first post for the most part as the thread was decidely in your favor and the OP didn't even have any specific detail about where he is located or the store in question is throughout his post. if it wasn't for you and the store's customers, we wouldn't know anything more than the store is presumably in the United States judging from the OP's flag... hardly a specificly targetting mudslinging like you're making it out to be. only because of your and your customers aggressive defense do we now know exactly which store is being talked about. For someone used to playing free in a store (which is overwhelmingly the case in US stores), suddenly being asked to pay to play is jarring. You may want to develop a thicker skin on the internet or you'll end up spending all the profits from your game club like Jay and Silent Bob.

Augustus wrote:
What is ridiculous is the over the top negative reaction you have, your absurd internet speak says almost all that's necessary to understand your opinion on this matter. People who run stores do it as a job, and probably an investment, expecting it to be free is entitlement minded drivel. Or perhaps you don't deserve to be indignant if we all decided to berate you for not allowing us to come play in your home with your toys for free. Stop being a child.

After reading that you sound just like one of the belligerent entitlement minded miscreants this was aimed at! I want to find out who the store owner is so I can mail order some product from him. It's sad so many belligerent nerds have forced him into a decision like this.

I'll also say this, if you're reading this thread and siding with the op you're the kind of gamer who gives us a bad name. Perhaps a hobby you can afford would suit you better?

People who buy from stores do it at their discretion and there are two valid sides to this argument. I or anyone else may not be entitled to anything for free but the other side of that is that this store owner is not entitled to my money either. I personally rarely game and when I do I can do it at a friends house or in a basement. This means a stores gaming space is not worth money to me. I am aware this is different for other people but I am not spending my hard earned money to subsidize another persons playing habits or a possibly failing business.

Now without knowing the facts it is a little hard to judge what is really going on here. For instance it may very well be that this guy either needs the extra money to keep his store afloat or he may really have a problem with too many players in the store crowding out his paying customers. If he does have a problem with nonpaying customers crowding out his paying customers this probably is a good move. On the other hand if he is just trying to get some extra money to help save his store this is just not going to work.

Either way he has made the way too common small business mistake of informing people of this new policy in a less than cordial manner. It blows my mind how often small business owners get up on their high horse and piss people off when they simply could have taken the time to politely explain their situation without making anyone mad.




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BloodQuest wrote:
I love how people are turning their nose up at a 10% discount as if it were nothing at all.

If you got 10% off everything, everywhere you went, it would be the equivalent of getting a 15% pay rise.

I don't think too many of us would sneer at that!

+1 on the taking your own food to a restaurant comment as well...

And by your own logic 20% is even better...... it isn't a matter of sneering at ten percent it comes down to me having a limited amount of money to spend that I bust my ass for and wanting to maximize what I can get out of it. Why is that so hard to understand?

warboss you are right. I posted in response to i guess make sure it didnt?

bretz123 i am not trying to get extra money to stay afloat or anything i am just wantng to just the expense spent on tables for this member thing. even then it doesnt cover it as i intend on contributing more eother way no biggie. this member thing was actually the idea of several customers. they wanted even better tables than we already have. in order to achieve it i was looking into member programs. I am not on a high horse so to speak. as you can tell i am trying to explain it all. i think if i were on a high horse trying to upset people i would not even be on here. anyway it is always hard to explain on the net.

brettz123 wrote:And by your own logic 20% is even better...... it isn't a matter of sneering at ten percent it comes down to me having a limited amount of money to spend that I bust my ass for and wanting to maximize what I can get out of it. Why is that so hard to understand?

You're allowed to buy your stuff wherever you want.

Just as this particular store owner is entitled to have standards as to who he lets play on his awesome tables. 10% off is the icing on the cake, and more than he really has to give as a discount anyway. This is why I won't deal with the public for a job, and I hold people that do it gracefully as saints.

Kanluwen wrote:Space can easily be found elsewhere to play.

A reliable shop can't be.

I understand the logic that your local shop will die out if you don't buy stuff there.

What I don't get is why Americans seem to want to play in shops rather than in clubs.

In this kind of case, the shop is providing tables and better terrain than a lot of clubs would have. IMO he is practically operating as a club and deserves to charge for membership.

I haven't got anything against shops. I just think they are for buying stuff in, rather than playing games.

That's an entirely ridiculous prospect! Have you really encountered a store that does this? The furthest my local GW has gone is getting irritated with people forgetting their own paints and having to use the store's.

chrispryor wrote:warboss you are right. I posted in response to i guess make sure it didnt?

bretz123 i am not trying to get extra money to stay afloat or anything i am just wantng to just the expense spent on tables for this member thing. even then it doesnt cover it as i intend on contributing more eother way no biggie. this member thing was actually the idea of several customers. they wanted even better tables than we already have. in order to achieve it i was looking into member programs. I am not on a high horse so to speak. as you can tell i am trying to explain it all. i think if i were on a high horse trying to upset people i would not even be on here. anyway it is always hard to explain on the net.

Glad you came to explain, cause just from the quotes (which I assume were what you wrote on the local forum) it really made you come off like a jerk. I can see from your postings here you're probably not. The one thing I think you really should change is that "I don't need you" stance you have about people making small purchases, or at least the wording. I get that you mean it toward a very specific sub group of your existing customers, but still. One of the first things I do when I visit an area is look for the local game shop, and try to find online info. If I stumbled across your store/local forum, which is how I found my current home store, and saw that, I'd pass on by based on attitude alone. My local group includes a lot of veteran 40k players, we're very rarely adding things to our collection, but most of us pick up something small here and there to keep supporting the local store (Like how redonk is buying paint online when you're in the mood to paint stuff?), and that kind of attitude from a store owner, I found personally offensive.

It looks like the store terrain is fantastic, something that is definitely a plus for wanting to start a membership based system, you could even create an in store gaming club. Charge dues, and have special perks, and I doubt anyone will complain further unless they're just nitpicking.

CommissarCandlestick wrote:That's an entirely ridiculous prospect! Have you really encountered a store that does this? The furthest my local GW has gone is getting irritated with people forgetting their own paints and having to use the store's.

"Having" to use the stores??

If you forget your paints buy some or don't paint.

Like most wargamers I've thought/fantasized about running my own store possibly one day...something tells me I may want to reconsider these ideas..

Kilkrazy wrote:

Kanluwen wrote:Space can easily be found elsewhere to play.

A reliable shop can't be.

I understand the logic that your local shop will die out if you don't buy stuff there.

What I don't get is why Americans seem to want to play in shops rather than in clubs.

In this kind of case, the shop is providing tables and better terrain than a lot of clubs would have. IMO he is practically operating as a club and deserves to charge for membership.

I haven't got anything against shops. I just think they are for buying stuff in, rather than playing games.

Because a lot of space is just as expensive to rent here as what you (I think) posted earlier in the thread for renting where you are. Even afternoon rentals are pretty prohibitive when you add in insurance costs (which every place charges), and table rentals.

/sigh

Gaming stores are a business. They do not exist for your convience. They should all charge a small fee for you to use their facilities. It is obvious that most of you do not realize that selling GW products is not a profitable business by any means. The only reason stores in SA are able to stay open is because they make loads of money buy selling crap like Magic.

Kilkrazy wrote:
I understand the logic that your local shop will die out if you don't buy stuff there.

What I don't get is why Americans seem to want to play in shops rather than in clubs.

In this kind of case, the shop is providing tables and better terrain than a lot of clubs would have. IMO he is practically operating as a club and deserves to charge for membership.

I haven't got anything against shops. I just think they are for buying stuff in, rather than playing games.

In a word, laziness. It would be too difficult to round up enough people interested in renting a space once a week or whenever and then working around everyone's busy home/work lifes. Much easier to walk into a game store and see if there's anyone up for a game or two.

My case, I have just one friend that plays tabletop gaming so it's either meet him at a store or go to the store when he's busy to play against someone else.

Community space is usually pretty cheap around here and heck, even the local library has space for a minimal charge...it'd just be a matter of arranging the whole thing which is daunting when I'm a cat-herder all through the week as my regular job.

It's just something that you have to grow into, I guess. Realizing that heat/ac, lights, water and retail space cost money and that you aren't entitled to playing in a place just because you own an army.

Kilkrazy wrote:

Kanluwen wrote:Space can easily be found elsewhere to play.

A reliable shop can't be.

I understand the logic that your local shop will die out if you don't buy stuff there.
What I don't get is why Americans seem to want to play in shops rather than in clubs.
In this kind of case, the shop is providing tables and better terrain than a lot of clubs would have. IMO he is practically operating as a club and deserves to charge for membership.
I haven't got anything against shops. I just think they are for buying stuff in, rather than playing games.

Again, it comes down to an issue of space and venue.

Most people in America don't actually own a house themselves. They rent apartments, either by themselves or with roommates.
It also doesn't help any if you're a college student and live in a dorm(because, again: space and shared living quarters).

There's very little venues that you can take over long enough to have a "club" meet in either situation, especially considering setting up the tables and the other time consuming parts.

But I've always figured that another part of it is psychological, even if the players don't realize it themselves. Being a nerd isn't really "mainstream". So, you can hide it by going to a private venue intended for that specific purpose(and considering most FLGSes are tucked away in out of the way places...it's a good hiding spot ).

Add in the fact that very few of these FLGSes open up exclusively to make money, but instead as a way for the owner to get to provide people access to something that the owner enjoys...and you get a positive atmosphere with a large amount of stores going out of their way to make it feel like a home away from home when you're playing there.

brettz123 wrote:And by your own logic 20% is even better...

It is, but I think you have to factor in shipping and handling costs, much of the discount is offset by that.

Look, I'm all for selling online - I'm doing it myself, but the difference between buying locally at 10%, and buying at 30% off less shipping may not come to much.

Of course, all this is grossly simplifying the situation.

We all like to get "a deal", but I think people take their FLGS for granted at their peril.

agnosto wrote:
In a word, laziness. It would be too difficult to round up enough people interested in renting a space once a week or whenever and then working around everyone's busy home/work lifes. Much easier to walk into a game store and see if there's anyone up for a game or two.
My case, I have just one friend that plays tabletop gaming so it's either meet him at a store or go to the store when he's busy to play against someone else.
Community space is usually pretty cheap around here and heck, even the local library has space for a minimal charge...it'd just be a matter of arranging the whole thing which is daunting when I'm a cat-herder all through the week as my regular job.

Maybe laziness is part of it, but most shops very rarely have pick up action going on. Almost every FLGS I know of has a website with a forum where people arrange games and leagues.

Hell, anyone who comes into Hangar 18 gets a flyer that points them towards our website, along with a list of scheduled events and contact information for the "organizers" of the leagues.

"Community space", by the way, doesn't mean diddly to someone who lives a half hour or more away from where the space is rented and gets a subpar experience because X who was bringing Y piece of terrain didn't show up, etc or any number of the potential snafus that could happen in that case.

Having a shop that's fully stocked with terrain, tables, and is in a centralized location pays dividends for that same player though.

One of the FLGSs near me has a a non-fee pay-to-play policy. First time is a free pass but after that, they ask that you spend a few bucks (I forget the actual amount) if you're going to play there. Since it's only a few bucks and you'll probably be there for a few hours, you can cover the required amount just by buying drinks/snacks. If you plan on picking up even a single blister or a few pots of paint, you're more than covered. All the better for them if you're buying a unit box.

Tournies that they run either have an entry fee which goes to prize support, are charity events where the entry fee is a donation (money for breast cancer groups, canned food, etc.), or are day-long special events (apoc. mega battles and the like) with raffle tickets for prizes/store credit and open gaming if you buy at least one.

Pretty reasonable, if you ask me. Guarantees a bit of cash flow on their end without extorting the customers.

We actually get a pretty solid run of pick up games. Count myself lucky in that matter.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
derek you are right. we are all humans and make errors. the fact that i didnt really go over my wording really careful was a error on my part. knowing some players will look into every wording I should have corrected it. being me I didnt think much of it. so i let it sit thinking i didnt write it poorly when in fact i did. Live and learn. I dont consider myself a jerk but i could see after looking it over again that it could be considered that way. i still think he should have called me or pm'd me first and said hey what gives. hopefully it is cleared up now

chrispryor wrote:warboss you are right. I posted in response to i guess make sure it didnt?

bretz123 i am not trying to get extra money to stay afloat or anything i am just wantng to just the expense spent on tables for this member thing. even then it doesnt cover it as i intend on contributing more eother way no biggie. this member thing was actually the idea of several customers. they wanted even better tables than we already have. in order to achieve it i was looking into member programs. I am not on a high horse so to speak. as you can tell i am trying to explain it all. i think if i were on a high horse trying to upset people i would not even be on here. anyway it is always hard to explain on the net.

I'm glad to hear it isn't to stay afloat because I don't think that would work. It is now obvious that it was more to my second point which was getting rid of people who are keeping your paying customers from playing games. I think that is not only a good idea but one that will make you money in the long run.

My only suggestion is that you should always take the high road even when you are just plain tired of peoples stupid crap. A lot of people will get information about this from forums like this and may never hear your side of the story so it is always best to just stay calm even when dealing with people who to put it mildly may be annoying you.

Anyway your boards look sweet and I hope things work out for you. Your is the kind of store that not only do I wish I had near me but is a credit to the hobby. Keep up the good work.

This a a tough call, and it is the owners call at that. I personally think every person who plays at a place is a potential customer. They may be limiting their pool of customers by doing this. Keeping a customer and making new ones are different things. I feel (warning...opinions may vary) this may slow their new player growth. I play at 2 places, and buy at those 2 places. I am lucky enough to have 5 gaming stores all with in the same distance from where I live. The way it sounds here is if I move to the area where this gaming store is I am not welcome to play there as I have not bought an army there. (edit2 I see you have already stated you may have worded your statement not to the best of your abilities, and this is an example, too bad we can't take back bullets once they are shot! It is always best to have a second person check over the "tone" or an email etc if it is important.)This has a negative affect on the community in my opinion.

I do not agree with everything the owner of the store the OP has wrote about said, but I do see where he is coming from. It is not like you need to buy models weekly due to the old ones getting used up or rotating out. Hobby shops are hard to keep in the black, one good month may need to pay for several bad ones. His investment needs some protection. I have seen tables get rough treatment, and have seen people asked not to play as a result. Neither place I play at charges for use, one does have a membership that gives benefits for being a member such as discounts etc. In my case though, there is much competition and stores have tried to charge for things before and lost due to this. This may not be the case here as the competition may be miles behind them in quality as well as distance.

Edit

I just saw the store owner has posted above me a few times. Apologies, I didn't see that. Well, you can see above my 2 cents ( I am not in your area just voicing my opinion.)

Jroc actually that isn't the case. U would simply be new to us. So say you moved here armies in tow. No biggie. U then decide to make this ur store to play and support then cool. If after playing here you felt no thanks then np either as this is ur choice as well. If you play here all the time and have zero support then it is different. Funny thing is support is general nad I feel it is good in many ways. It could be as simple as you played with another new person and they loved it so much they bought in to the game . Then in that sense you support hobby and us. It could be tourney onyl thing where you only come up for them no biggie again. Or leagues campaigns whatever. My thing was like you said. If they provide nothing in anyway except to take up space and be a blight to this community then we can't afford to have them in due to the fact I need to maintain a happy medium with our customers who do.

Glad to see posts from the owner and a bunch of the local guys, as well as those great pics of the sweet terrain!

Chris, please feel free to promote your store and events on the site!

-Make sure you're listed in our Store Locator (or update the entry if it's incomplete).
-Feel free to post pictures of your terrain and tables in our Gallery and/or Articles sections
-Feel free to post about upcoming tournaments in our Tournament Forum.

That kind of stuff is useful to gamers. If you get some more customers out of it, so much the better!

If you want to run advertisements you can do that too; check out Services.

---------------------------------------

In regards to tone and what you wrote, I don't think it would be at all unreasonable for your average gamer. But coming from a business owner, it did come off a bit unprofessional.

A lot of shop owners have to learn this; the importance of being professional and an ambassador for their store (and to some extent the hobby) when posting anything online.

Best regards and best wishes for your store's success.

I think the lesson learned here is as a store owner, you need to be real careful of what you post on an internet forum. Or for that matter what you post in your store. I understand a bit about professionalism in business and to be honest the words you used should have been chosen more carefully. You could be the nicest person in the world and use poorly chosen language and come off as a jerk. For example claiming that people that buy drinks and snacks are not your customers is wrong. It's true they aren't your "elite" customers but they have spent money and are your customers. Also by driving them away, you guarantee that they will never become an elite customer. Maybe they grow up one day, or if you educate them they may change their minds or habits. It seems to me that you need to think long term.

To the pay to play question...Of course there is a right to do that, however I'm not sure if it is always the wisest choice. Your elite customers will always pay the cover fee, but again driving your slackers away seems counter intuitive.

Keep in mind I'm looking at this purely from a business standpoint, not from a moral standpoint.

GG

To make the most money a store doesn't charge for tables fees.

1. More sales = More profit.
2. People in the store provide the opportunity for more sales.
3. Nice tables and terrain bring in more gamers.
4. Charging for table usage brings in less gamers.
5. Charging puts the the store in an adversarial role as a tax collector.
6. There are other ways of dealing with parasites than by charging.

Therefore, if I want to maximize profit, I should make sure I have good tables and scenery, and not charge for useage.

So feel invited to come play a game for free, use my paints for free, take part in free leagues and classes...

... and I'll do my best to shake every last dollar out of you. And get a lot more than if I was chasing after some hourly fee.

mikhaila wrote:

... and I'll do my best to shake every last dollar out of you.

No thanks, I'll avoid that. Luckily I don't worry about my LFGS trying to do that to me. I'm not so good on the hard close. Best of luck with the others

mikhaila wrote:
So feel invited to come play a game for free, use my paints for free, take part in free leagues and classes...

If you are giving away your paint for free, would you mind if I walked out with a few free blisters? hehe

My local store tried this out for a little while. For $20 a month, you'd have access to "better" terrain, special tournaments, twice a year discounts, and on weekends the store would stay open a few hours later for members only.

Started out with pretty big numbers, but after a few months people just stopped paying, and eventually it went defunct.

It was entirely optional though. There was still tables and terrain for use for non-members. The money we paid didn't go to the store as well. It went to pay for that special terrain, tournament prizes, etc...

Odominus wrote:

mikhaila wrote:

... and I'll do my best to shake every last dollar out of you.

No thanks, I'll avoid that. Luckily I don't worry about my LFGS trying to do that to me. I'm not so good on the hard close. Best of luck with the others

Don't have to worry about it in mine either. I don't bother. Hard sell is too much work. I just try to stock the store with what people need/want and try to get them to come in as much as possible to be tempted by it.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Odominus wrote:[

mikhaila wrote:
So feel invited to come play a game for free, use my paints for free, take part in free leagues and classes...

If you are giving away your paint for free, would you mind if I walked out with a few free blisters? hehe

Somehow not seeing how offering free paint and painting classes would lead someone to think that I didn't mind them shoplifting.

Kilkrazy wrote:
I have to say I am still surprised that US gamers are so centred on stores. I would have thought with your big homes, and lots of church halls, space could easily be found elsewhere.

Are you being serious?

mikhaila wrote:
Somehow not seeing how offering free paint and painting classes would lead someone to think that I didn't mind them shoplifting.

Well paint costs money (unless you are foraging for the components and raw product and homaking the paints yourself of course). So paint has value.

If you are giving away something of value for free, would it be unreasonable for you to also be giving other items of value away such as a blister? And if I have the owner's permission to leave with an item for free, it isn't shoplifting. Sheesh

My turn.

I play at the store. I don't play what I consider regularly, only twice a month not including tourneys. I have a pretty demanding job and a healthy home life with my family, so I just don't devote the time that many hardcore gamers do. However, I understand what a special place the store is.

It is a great place to play that isn't my basement. I grew up playing in garages and basements. That sucks to have that as your only option. This store provides new players, armies and terrain on a regular basis. Chris has multiple organized events throughout the year(Some for charity and at a cost to him!), and always has a couple hundred dollars worth of prize support. He will order anything you need, but he doesn't shove crap down your throat about buying stuff when you are there. He has a room dedicated to terrain which most people take for granted and leave in a mess. He has a full range of GW stuff, as well as lots of other mini-war-gaming tools and supplies. He stocks and custom orders Battle Foam at nearly cost to him(Literally, he almost takes a hit off this stuff and still provides it.) He and his staff, all genuinly promote the game and the community and whatever your army interests are.

As he said, he asked his community about what we thought about this idea. I want you to read that again, because he said that in an earlier post and still took a couple of shots about his approach. He was speaking to us, we all know each other. We are all adults who know what he is talking about. He used his store forums to communicate to his gaming community. Yeah his grammar and typing may be sublevel but the message was a question, a proposal, not some law of the land.

Tools have come in with an old army, sold it cheap to new players that would have otherwise bought from chris(thus undercutting him) and taken that money to ebay or online to save 10%, which if you build a 500 dollar army is a big fat 50 bucks....

The buying-online doesn't mean that you can't buy anything online and use it in the store. I ordered lots of stuff from FW for Xmas(I buy all my GW stuff from the store). I'm going to plop it down on Chris's killer tables and he will be just as excited about the awesome figs as I am. We may play a game and he'll decimate my new figs... if he doesn't one of the other players will. I've been up to the store one time in 3 years that I couldn't get a game up.

I doubt I will play more than twice a month in 2011 and I will still pay 10, 20 or 50 bucks a month and whether I play on those sweet ass tables or not is not important. It may be a perk, but the store is such a BA place without those tables, to me it's moot. I would gladly pay to play without anything other than the game as my return.

MM

Odominus wrote:

mikhaila wrote:
So feel invited to come play a game for free, use my paints for free, take part in free leagues and classes...

If you are giving away your paint for free, would you mind if I walked out with a few free blisters? hehe

He's not saying "I'll give you a brand new, unopened pot of paint that you can take home with you".

Mikhaila likely has pots of paints that are purchased, by him, for exclusive usage of the store patrons.

Kanluwen wrote:
He's not saying "I'll give you a brand new, unopened pot of paint that you can take home with you".

He did not say that. Hence my polite question.

Kanluwen wrote:"Mikhaila likely has pots of paints that are purchased, by him, for exclusive usage of the store patrons.

Would I be allowed to paint my 3k Skaven army on the store's dime?

Odominus wrote:

mikhaila wrote:
Somehow not seeing how offering free paint and painting classes would lead someone to think that I didn't mind them shoplifting.

Well paint costs money (unless you are foraging for the components and raw product and homaking the paints yourself of course). So paint has value.

If you are giving away something of value for free, would it be unreasonable for you to also be giving other items of value away such as a blister? And if I have the owner's permission to leave with an item for free, it isn't shoplifting. Sheesh

it's quite amazing that any sane person could make the connections you have, so I'll assume you're just trolling. But just in case you are slow, I'll explain it.

1. We offer free painting classes, and provide all the materials. This is a service provided by the store to help new players learn how to paint. It helps them get armies ready for tournaments, and learn a skill that will let them enjoy the hobby of playing with toy soldiers more.

2. Giving you free blisters, and then having to do it for every other person that somehow equates a painting class with free product would mean I'd be out of business in about a week.

So actually, it's two quite different things. You're just making use of really bad logic to come to a false conclusion. Sort of the way air is free, but beer isn't, yet both are made up of molecules.

Beer should be free......

*mutter, mutter, mutter*

Odominus wrote:
Would I be allowed to paint my 3k Skaven army on the store's dime?

Well, I'll give you access to enough paints to do it, and help learning how to do it. Whether you ever accomplished the task would be up to you.
But quite a few people come in and paint every weekend, working on an army, and then get a few games in.




Automatically Appended Next Post:

Hulksmash wrote:Beer should be free......

*mutter, mutter, mutter*

Agreed on that one.

Paying to play is standard in the FLGS I played in in Dublin, and I was happy to pay because it meant I had somewhere to do it!

When/If I join a club here in the UK I'll haveta pay too, and I don't mind that. Rent is expensive!

Beer can be close to free if you brew your own!

mikhaila wrote:You're just making use of really bad logic to come to a false conclusion.

I never came to a conclusion. I asked a legitimate question and you called me a troller. Really? I have never heard of this business model.

Well, I'll give you access to enough paints to do it

Hence my question. The bottom line is how much money the store (aka the owner) brings in. If the store is shelling out money for paints...well then the store is giving money to customers. That doesn't take Spock to follow that logic. Hey it may be a great practice and I am sure it is met with a lot of enthusiasm by the recipients of your generosity. My question was: does that generosity carry over into blisters as well? That is all. No need to get snippy.

It's a pretty standard business model. Most companies/stores have some semblance of this. Something that either costs them money or that they break even on but that generates long term sales growth. Much like he is doing. Now if you weren't aware of that then cool. But since I find that hard to believe I can see why he'd think you were a troll.

Odominus wrote:Hence my question. The bottom line is how much money the store (aka the owner) brings in. If the store is shelling out money for paints...well then the store is giving money to customers. That doesn't take Spock to follow that logic. Hey it may be a great practice and I am sure it is met with a lot of enthusiasm by the recipients of your generosity. My question was: does that generosity carry over into blisters as well? That is all. No need to get snippy.

I read some of your other posts. You seem intelligent, and nowhere near as dense as you seem to be acting in this thread. Hence my assumption that you're trolling. But lets pretend you really are having trouble following the difference between offering a painting class, and giving away blisters for nothing, and I'll politely answer the question.

The answer is : No, you can't have some free blisters.

Now you have the information that you needed. Let me know when you're coming up to do that 3000 pts in skaven, I'll make sure everything is ready for you.

Odominus wrote:

mikhaila wrote:You're just making use of really bad logic to come to a false conclusion.

I never came to a conclusion. I asked a legitimate question and you called me a troller. Really? I have never heard of this business model.

Well, I'll give you access to enough paints to do it

Hence my question. The bottom line is how much money the store (aka the owner) brings in. If the store is shelling out money for paints...well then the store is giving money to customers. That doesn't take Spock to follow that logic. Hey it may be a great practice and I am sure it is met with a lot of enthusiasm by the recipients of your generosity. My question was: does that generosity carry over into blisters as well? That is all. No need to get snippy.

spock wouldn't follow that because there is no logic; even a ferengi would raise an brow ridge to that theory of business. seriously, how can you compare the use of store-supplied communal paints to condoning shoplifting? when you go to mcdonalds, do they charge you for ketchup? no, generally they don't. does that mean you can just go behind the counter and take home a few big macs for free? of course not.

mikhaila aproach seems the smartest one, I mean tempting me with good tables, my favorite army fully stocked, painting place etc all for free, thats proactive and hard to resist store... As for the OP store I also understand the fee thing... what I cannot understand is the store telling people they are not welcommed if they buy online, thats not working out with people a solution, thats just being pissy about it and showing some unecessary muscle.

I dont understand it because we live in a free society with free trade, I can buy were I want to and dont need a store to try to make me feel bad about my personal shopping decisions and to police my hobby purchases.
Your problem is leeches? for sure you know them in person so why not address the problem directy to them instead of acting like a bully towards everyone?
How about just having one crappy table for the leeches groups?...
Also if everyone pays fees to use the tables whats it to you were they buy their armies?

Its your store, your right to enforce what you want but this to me seems a desesperate solution for a store thats loosing control over things... I hate leeches too they are killing the hobby here but this is not the way IMO to solve the problem. I mean I dont need a store owner telling me I cant play if I buy elsewere... specially if I pay somekind of fee.

I'm curious how mikhaila deals with the leech problem... I bet my winter shoes that he takes the problem directly to the leeches and turns them into good costumers

Neconilis wrote:

Kilkrazy wrote:
I have to say I am still surprised that US gamers are so centred on stores. I would have thought with your big homes, and lots of church halls, space could easily be found elsewhere.

Are you being serious?

I would imagine he is. The vast majority of gamers in the UK play in small private clubs using cheap or free space that's available (churches, universities, libraries, local government all make space available. Even businesses and private members clubs can make space available sometimes - there's a pub locally that hosts the bloodbowl league and the local Air Force club has a wargames night)

I would not be opposed to paying $10 a month to use a facility set up for gaming.

I'd probably consider paying as much as $15 if I knew that the money was directly going into terrain and tables, or if they offered extras, like perhaps a 'gratis' soda fountain.

Edit: I just saw the pictures. Jesus. The OP just lost all sympathy in my mind. I WISH I could pay to play on tables that looked like that.

From most business owner's perspective (as I understand after having spoken with many of them) the main idea is to draw people into the business. Then you can work on selling to them. If you have no people, there are no sales.

How do you do that? Advertising, giveaways, sweepstakes, good word-of-mouth etc. I would guess that having players in the place, using well-painted armies (hence the free use of paint at Mikhaila's store) draws new players to say "hey, that looks awesome! What is it?" There's the opening for a sale and a new customer to make them into a client.

I can see chrispryor's reason if he's got folks just hanging out abusing the tables and pushing away paying customers. Any business would do that. Hell, I saw a Subways Sandwich shop owner kick out a bunch of unruly kids who each bought only a soda and were hanging out because they were using up table space for regular, meal purchasing customers. The owner has the right to do that because it is a business.

I would love to have an FLGS instead of an LGS like I do in my area. I wish I lived where Mikhaila's store was as I'd definitely hang out and paint my armies there! If I'm there and I need a new brush, or more Guardsmen to convert, guess where I'm buying it from? Him, not the interwebz.

Just one question for Mikhaila... how do you deal with the parasites?

I wish I had the time to play at stores more often. Seems the older I get the less time I have :(

But, unless I was doing some kind of organized event that the organizer/store spent a lot of time and effort on to make it lots of fun, I would never pay a fee to play at the store or anywhere.

Mike's method really is the best. Have a great store with great tables and scenery, invite people in to play for free and run leagues and stuff, in most cases those people won't leave without buying something.

I know a lot of folks like to buy cheaper online but me personally, I'd rather get my toys from a store that will always have what I want when I want it and a place that will support the local gamer community with fun events even though I rarely get a chance play there.

Maxstreel wrote:
I can see chrispryor's reason if he's got folks just hanging out abusing the tables and pushing away paying customers. Any business would do that. Hell, I saw a Subways Sandwich shop owner kick out a bunch of unruly kids who each bought only a soda and were hanging out because they were using up table space for regular, meal purchasing customers. The owner has the right to do that because it is a business.

It's not even just that. I mean, if you go golfing, you spend a ton of money on the gear, the funny clothes, and a good pair of shoes, and then and only then, you go to pay to play at the course. The course in turn takes the money and puts it back into maintenance and upkeep. How long do you think those well manicured greens would last should people stop paying for them?

God, kids these days...

This discussion is interesting to say the least...It seems to me that alot of people are OMFG!!! pay to play no way. Which is understandable especially if they have a FLGS or something similar to already play at for free. I have been following the thread for a couple days now without posting because Im not really sure I had made up my mind on it. After thinking on it Id come to the following observations that lead to my decisions.

Culture: The culture of the gaming groups to to vary from one area to the next, sometimes quite significantly. This can range from different regions, coutries, or even stores in the same area. This completely skews the view and opinions of each group. For example alot of people in the UK seem to be more inclined to play at clubs, churches, pubs, community centers, etc. Some of the posters indicate that this is free or low cost so this makes perfect sense. In the US there are not many places like this and for years stores have been the focal point for gaming groups. The stores typically had area set aside for this. This was fairly standard from one city to the next. The quality of the gaming area varied significantly from one store to the next. This worked for the longest time (the last 25 years or so I have been in the hobby at least). Prior to the internet this meant that almost all gamers bought there stuff at a local store or mail ordered some items (usually something the store did not have or could not get). This worked for all parties invoved as everyone benefited. Besides that for the longest time gaming was not considered a mainstream hobby so naturally us nerds tended to group together.

The Internet: Since the internet many factors have changed for the FLGS or LGS. Early on competiton was limited to the local stores for the most part. That is not the case now nor will it probably be ever again. Online dealers (god bless thier money grubbing capitolists hearts) can offer steep discounts. This is achievable only because of minimal overhead and operating costs. As a consumer this is fantastic. As a brick and mortar storefront this is hard to compete with. I dont know how many times I heard at the local store look what I got at Warstore for $$$ when he first started (Neals still great but his deals arent as big nowadys as they used to be and now I only use him when he has something I cant get locally). The same could be said of Ebay (again not as good as it used to be but still deals to be had if you a patient). The good store owners have learned to deal with this in all sorts of common sense and imaginative ways and have accepted the fact that this is just the way it is. Those that didnt or wouldnt are now out of business. One store owner even left a nasty sign on his door when he closed blaming an internet shop by name. It dint help that his shop was pathetic, understocked, overpriced, and he had the personality of a troll.

Economics: Costs have risen across the board for everyone. This includes rent and utilities. That gaming area is just getting more and more expensive all the time. Where as once it weas a no brainer now it is actually a serious decision to devote a significant area to no immediate value gained. Many shops operating margins are slim to say the least. A store owner that knows what he is doing understands this. Thats why stores operated as a business by a business man tend to perform alittle better than that gamer who opened his shop because he thought it would be cool to be a gamestore owner . Note this is not always the case and some gamers are excellent businessmen and their stores will almost always be the more successful shops. in all cases the store must be operated as a business or it will fail. One of the best qoutes I ever heard in my management classes was "if all of your customers are completely happy...then you are doomed to fail". There is some truth in that. The business must manage customer satisfaction with profit.

Parasites, leeches, trolls, and the unwashed: Sometimes it seems like these kind of people flock to gamestores like sheep. The groups of players down at the store has a direct influence on the business as a whole. If the store has a group of regulars that fall into this category then it is losing money. One of the FLGS had this for awhile and ity lasted nearly two years. For the most part a large number of us regulars stopped gaming down there completely as we did not want to deal with these . All were unemployed for the most part, spent all day at the store playing, occupied almost all the space, rarely spent money, and were generally annoying as a ll hell. This in some cases cost the store a fair amount of revenue as a few people stopped buying there completely. Bottom line is that if you have people like this then you need to curb or give them the boot immediately. This does not mean that all people that dont spend much are leeches. Quite a few times there have been a few of them that are the type of people who are fun to play with and generate quite a bit of enthusiasm and interest. Those kind of players are keepers. Good shop owners realize this and frequently hook them up and do what they can to keep them in the hobby.

Upkeep: Any decent gaming area requires upkeep. Unless its a few tables with some boxes and a pair of ratty blankets then its going to cost time and money. Alot of our fellow gamers treat the terrain like ass and dont care because... tada its not theirs . I dont understand this logic but hey maybe someone will fill me in. So who should eat the cost of replacing and repairing all the damage done in the gaming area. The store owner can only eat it at cost for so long. Also the few people who use thier own time to do it for free quickly burn out or get tired of picking up after the .

The OP pretty much worded the original post in his favor skewing many of the opinions of the follow on posters. Since reading Chris and some of the local gamers who use the store in question I would say he absolutely right in his decision. Some of the people in this thread seem to completely disregard their replies. A few even have a strange sense of entitlement... buying a soda or pot of paint once in a blue moon does not make you a valued customer. Buying all of your armies, models, paints, etc. online and gaming down at the store does not make you a valued customer. Does this mean you buy everything at the store, no it dosent. Even the store owner said as much earlier in the thread but quite a few replies seem to overlook that.

Taking all that into account I can see where it would be plausible to charge for gaming space (especially looking at the pics of the store that started this whole thread). If the store has a decent sized, well stocked, and equipped gaming area then I see no problem with this concept. Now whether or not this has any value added is entirely up to the store owner. If the time is invested to make the gaming area worth it then Im fairly sure it will work. If its justs a couple empty tables with some shabby hand me down terrain pieces made from cardboard scraps... well it will probably fail.

If I showed up from out of town with my army looking for a casual pick-up game at Chris' store, I wouldn't have a problem paying a nominal fee (say$5-8 bucks) to use the space for the afternoon.

If I showed up from out of town looking for a pickup game at Chris' store with my army, offered to pay a nominal fee for $5-8, and was told to bugger off because I didn't buy my army at his store, I'd have a huge problem with that.

But if I was Chris, and i had a local customer who contributed to the community/store by helping to organize tournaments, helping to clean up, building terrain and bringing it in for community use, but didn't have a lot of money to spend, I'd probably consider waiving that fee or any membership for that person.

hemingway wrote:If I showed up from out of town with my army looking for a casual pick-up game at Chris' store, I wouldn't have a problem paying a nominal fee (say$5-8 bucks) to use the space for the afternoon.

A chance gamer stopping by to check out the store and play a pick up game? I doubt Chris would take a dime from you to play. Actually I know he would say no way and let you check the store out for yourself.

hemingway wrote:If I showed up from out of town looking for a pickup game at Chris' store with my army, offered to pay a nominal fee for $5-8, and was told to bugger off because I didn't buy my army at his store, I'd have a huge problem with that.

We all would and he would never do that. Again, he might tell you to enjoy yourself but the pay to play wouldn't be on the table for you. He's never told any random player, to my knowledge, to bugger off for stopping by to play...

hemingway wrote:But if I was Chris, and i had a local customer who contributed to the community/store by helping to organize tournaments, helping to clean up, building terrain and bringing it in for community use, but didn't have a lot of money to spend, I'd probably consider waiving that fee or any membership for that person.

Again, don't forget this is an option to pay to play on the really expensive cool tables. Open space will still be there.

I help out with setting up or putting away terrain for tourneys, taking out the trash, helping new players with the rules. I get nothing for it; no discounts, no deals, no special treatment(other than maybe a little gratitude). I do it because Chris provides an awesome, well stocked, FREE envoriment to roll dice in and I am grateful for it.

DoonOnYou72: You are spot on mate. Thanks for reading all posts, not just the ones you can throw gas on. This area is lucky to have chris's store. I've been to the other ones, and I've experienced places without FLGS all together and I know what the difference is.

MM

A store shouldn't be so heavy-handed. That's not how you develop a gaming community. At a good store like the one I go to, the players donate the terrain we use.

We donate terrain and the store provides as well.

For the most part so do we as well. However over the years the donations have slowed/ stopped for a few reasons. The first is that it frequently seems to be that same peeps who donate, every now and then we get a new player who does as well. Some of the players who do use it are arseclowns who cant be bothered to take care of it and thrash it. I no longer have any interest in donating new pieces or fixing old ones. I will still bring down my nice terrain for special events (wheter Im a part of it or not) on the understanding that you break it you bought it. Lets face it and Im sure most of you would agree that it gets old being one of the few people who care enough to donate or fix it while others just trash it and dont care.

Owain wrote:A store shouldn't be so heavy-handed. That's not how you develop a gaming community. At a good store like the one I go to, the players donate the terrain we use.

Some groups of gamers will make and donate scenery. Others won't, or don't, or don't know how. A store can't always wait around for a group of gamers to donate what the store neeeds. The scenery at this store looks great, very nice tables that would be a great treat to play on. I can understand where he's coming from, even though I personally don't like to charge people to play.

He runs his store different than i would. Good for him. If you look at a lot of the good gaming stores there's a consistant theme: An owner that cares about his gamers and the community and works hard to build both his store and the community. We aren't going to be cookie cutter operations. How he runs his store is just as valid as I run mine, and it looks like he's doing a good job of it.

He's a bit blunt in his message. So what? He's also not aiming it at anyone but a few of his locals that abuse his hospitality. If you're offended by it, then you're choosing to apply his words to yourself, but he's not talking to you. Unless you happen to be someone local to the store, never buy anything, but want to use the scenery and tables anyway.

I really applaud someone that is finding a way to bring that level of scenery into his store for his gamers to play on.

Dealing with people that don't support the store, but take advantage of what it offers, is always tricky. I tend to deal with it on a case by case basis. This has the advantage of not making rules for everyone, but has the downside of having to deal one on one with someone who might be quite difficult to talk to. Every stores going to be a bit different, the problem children will create different problems, and require different solutions.

Howdy folks,

I'm another one of the gamers from the store in question. Like the rest of the locals, I'm here to support Chris and how he's choosing to run the store.

I'm going to attempt to avoid any unnecessary redundancy in arguing a point that's already been well-made. Instead, I'm going to just add in an additional perspective with what anecdotal evidence I can.


I'm there to play WoW TCG on Fridays and occasionally make it to the shop on other days of the week as well. Now before you go thinking that I have no business talking about membership fees, terrain, etc. know this- I've played 40K since Rogue Trader, Fantasy since 4th edition, Warmachine, Battletech, and various other tabletop games over the years and I do still actively collect, paint, and play. As many of you will know, there are points in time where you just get burnt out and are wanting to do something different for a while. Right now, I'm in the "do something different" phase, and so I'm playing cardboard crack.


The tables.
I'm at the shop pretty much every Friday. When I walk in, there's a better than average chance that every single one of the tables is occupied. Some are covered with terrain with people actively playing on them, some are stacked with people's miniature cases, rulebooks, and "dead" and "reserve" models. There's usually one centrally-located table that has a few guys building/painting figs.
You'll see a pair of WoW TCG players sitting at the far end of one table with just enough space to play a game with their elbows tucked in while the rest of the surface is covered in terrain that may or may not have a game of Warmachine or 40K going on. As the weekend gamers roll in, more people are asked to "move their stuff" to make room for more people to game. The miniature cases get placed under tables or in corners and under shelves of product. The guys building/painting minis have to take a moment to condense the amount of table space they're using so more people can fit at the "not playing, but doing stuff" table.
Space is at a premium, without being so tight that it's claustrophobic. It's just the right amount of clutter that promotes interaction between the people in the store. You can't help but get to know the names, faces, and armies/interests of the people around you.


Membership and "No Internet Armies Allowed"
In such a setting where table space is at a premium, there is a very valid reason for keeping a select number of tables available to a "Members Only" subscription. For those who don't have firsthand knowledge of the store and the individual challenges that we face in this area, the "no online-purchased armies" thing could seem understandably harsh. I see your point of view, but I have also seen the actual situation that brought about this decision. It started out as an annoyance, became a problem, and unless it was checked...would have become an epidemic.

As an example, here's something that I witnessed:
An employee was introducing a potential player to 40K. He spent the better part of an hour going into detail about the broad-stroke strategies and tactics for each individual army, gave tips on painting and modeling, suggested how to get the most bang for your buck while still coming out with a playable army, and offered to drop whatever he was doing to run the guy through a demo game whenever he had the time.
After all of this time spent investing in a new player/customer with an introduction to our hobby (rather than a hard sell), some creep walks over and has the gall to "poach" the customer from the store by mentioning that the newbie could pick up the same suggested models online and save X-amount of money.

This wasn't a singular occurrence that spawned Chris' "If you buy online, you aren't welcome here" policy. This sort of thing happened repeatedly over the course of time. Not just "poaching," but casual remarks from people saying "I'm hyped about the new Army that's coming out...I already put in an order for it online." There was also a rash of Used Car Salesmanship...selling a "slightly used" (Read: poorly assembled and shoddily painted) army to a new player for a fraction of the retail cost. Sometimes, this was a direct poaching of what would have been an in-store sale, other times it was from one veteran gamer to another.

When I get the tabletop gaming itch again, I want to be able to walk into the store and play a game. What Chris is trying to avoid is for his supporters to get choked out of gaming space by the Internet Armies and Leeches occupying the available tables.

I don't want to paint a picture that blows this problem out of proportion though...there are PLENTY of supporters at the shop who have space to game. The number of Internet Armies and Leeches is small. The thing is, even one of these people taking up a table puts a major ding in the availability of gaming space. If that "Freeloader" happens to be playing on one of the high-quality Games Day tables, that's a pretty big kick to the jewels...hence the need for some way of ensuring that those that support the store have priority over those that don't.

It's not like we're vying for table space that has books placed under a mat for "hills" and oddly-shaped bits of green construction paper for "trees"...the terrain room is practically overflowing with awesome bits and pieces of terrain of all flavors. This is what gets used for Open Gaming. Taking a step up from already awesome terrain to play on a Games Day quality table that cost hundreds (or thousands) of dollars to purchase makes any membership fee that might be attached to it all the more worthwhile. Maybe it's a "Had to be there" thing, but after reading through this thread, it would seem that anyone who saw the photos posted earlier has agreed that they'd be more than happy to pay a nominal fee in order to play on the table. That fee, in turn, goes towards buying even more high quality gaming tables.




On Chris (the store owner)
If you judge a person by their "internet voice" then you're going to get a very different idea of Chris' character than you would if you spoke to him in person. There's a reason why it's a commonly-held belief that 93% of communication is non-verbal (at least, according to a UCLA study) and another great reason why internet anonymity can bring out the worst in people. Chris has an admittedly brusque manner when it comes to his typed messages. If you know him personally though, it takes the sting out of the words because you know without a doubt that he'd much rather talk to you about it in person for an hour rather than "waste" 5 minutes talking about it in a text-only format.

If you're from out of town (as I was when I first visited the shop) you will NOT experience a "Buy something or GTFO" sort of atmosphere. In fact, I highly doubt that you'd be required to pay any sort of fee to play on one of the Games Day tables. Either Chris would waive the fee, or your opponent might cover the cost out of their pocket just to ensure you had a good time. We're that type of crowd.



Final Thought
Pass judgment on the "Stores charging membership fees" topic if you must, but I think you'll find that (at least according to the actual REGULARS at the store) the membership fee being enacted at this particular shop is not only warranted, but well-worth it and fully-endorsed by the gamers that support the store.

Your mileage may vary...but mine will stay at a 20-minute drive to and from this great store at least once a week.

More power to the owner for doing whatever he wants with the space he uses his money (and probably his blood pressure and sleepless nights) to pay for.

Maybe in Phoenix we're really lucky, there's 4-5 FLGS within a 30-minute drive on the freeways, and each one of them has at bare minimum 6+ 8'x4' tables. When I need to buy something, I typically buy it at the store that I am spending time in that day. If I don't need to buy anything for my army then yeah I'm getting soda and chips, sorry I didn't need my 6th drop pod today bro, if that isn't enough we just have the ability to drive anywhere else. Many of the stores here have free discount cards that come in one form or another (one of them generates bonus store credit points every time you buy something, one of them gives you 20% off your next purchase for every 150$ or so you spend)

We have options, and the terrain is (generally) outstanding at most of the locations, so if someone started charging 5$ or whatever to play every month they would have to have something alot cooler than that table with the bridge on it to make us stay. What kind of competition is out there in TN? If owning a gaming shop in Nashville is so awesome that you have to literally turn away people that are merely buying Funyuns and Pepsi maybe someone should open another FLGS out there. Sounds like the competition would do some good for everyone.

MikeMcSomething wrote:More power to the owner for doing whatever he wants with the space he uses his money (and probably his blood pressure and sleepless nights) to pay for.

Maybe in Phoenix we're really lucky, there's 4-5 FLGS within a 30-minute drive on the freeways, and each one of them has at bare minimum 6+ 8'x4' tables. When I need to buy something, I typically buy it at the store that I am spending time in that day. If I don't need to buy anything for my army then yeah I'm getting soda and chips, sorry I didn't need my 6th drop pod today bro, if that isn't enough we just have the ability to drive anywhere else. Many of the stores here have free discount cards that come in one form or another (one of them generates bonus store credit points every time you buy something, one of them gives you 20% off your next purchase for every 150$ or so you spend)

We have options, and the terrain is (generally) outstanding at most of the locations, so if someone started charging 5$ or whatever to play every month they would have to have something alot cooler than that table with the bridge on it to make us stay. What kind of competition is out there in TN? If owning a gaming shop in Nashville is so awesome that you have to literally turn away people that are merely buying Funyuns and Pepsi maybe someone should open another FLGS out there. Sounds like the competition would do some good for everyone.

That's the thing...there ARE other shops. Not 4 or 5 (more like 1 or 2) that are within reasonable driving distance for me. I visited both of them...once. I'll put it as nicely as I can: Not my kind of crowd. From a business perspective, there IS competition. From my personal perspective, none of the other shops can possibly compete with the atmosphere, variety of stock, cleanliness, and high-quality character of the playerbase as this store.

Mike, you ARE lucky over there in Phoenix. Choice is a good thing, and as I stated, we do have choices. I do, however, consider myself lucky too. Your nightmarish description of someone charging $5 a month to play and feeling obligated to buy a 6th drop pod is not a place I'd want to frequent either.

I think you seem to have mis-translated what the store's membership program and definition of "support your store" is all about.
Yeah, it's easy to see a dollar sign mixed in with a bunch of words and decide that if it's somehow related to gaming, it's a bad thing that shouldn't be tolerated. I mean, really...the NERVE of some people wanting to charge you extra for perks.

--WARNING Sarcasm to illustrate a point is incoming!--
Paying MONEY to actively play a hobby? Ridiculous! I already spent hundreds of dollars just to play...my...hobby. Oh...woops. I should just start playing golf. That's a hobby. With a high-dollar initial cost for equipment, a cost for goofy plaid pants, shoes, green fees every time I play, extra for golf cart rental, etc. I could upgrade my membership and have access to the player's clubhouse, too. Hmm...maybe I should just stick to tabletop gaming after all.
--End of Sarcasm--

At my store (I say mine, because I consider it my "home store") you could walk in any day of the week and play for free. Membership simply gives you access to some of the more outstanding tables and a priority of being able to play on those tables over a non-membership player.

At a different store, many years ago, in a different town, I frequented a place that had custom-built lockers. These lockers were rented out to gamers who were interested in being able to store their stuff there at the shop. The store owner charged rent for these lockers. Not only to recoup his initial investment in making them, but also to buy more in the future. If you saw a bunch of lockers in a hobby store, you'd assume that they were for rent, not "free for anyone to use," right? If anyone did think "free for me," they should probably re-evaluate their sense of self-entitlement. It's waaaay off.

I honestly don't see the current situation any differently. You want access to nice things that are above and beyond what a typical store is commonly expected to provide, you're going to have to expect it to come with a price tag. These high-quality "Members Only" tables serve the same function as a locker rental system, just with different physical dimensions.
Both take up a certain amount of floor space. Both of them offer a customer the ability to use said space at a nominal monthly fee. Both are a "nice to have" perk, not a "you must do this" part of the hobby. Membership simply has its privileges.

guys, seriously, lets leave the funyons out of this. i don't want that awesome taste's reputation sullied in a minor internet argument. pepsi on the other hand, meh.

A store is only able to charge a membership fee if A. The quality of their store is way above the stores around them or B. they are the only FLGS around. There is no such place around me.

While I do buy most of my army online, it's entirely the store's fault. Most stores mark up GW product by 40 percent. Online, I can find GW products that are marked up around 15 percent. I did the math, buying my army online saved me close to 200 dollars. Its one thing to support your FLGS, its another to be robbed blind by them. Everyone has to balance a check book.

Example: Online I can get a box of boyz for 17 dollars. At my FLGS, they are sold for 24. I need about 12 boxes of boyz for my army. That right there is 84 dollars alone. Not a small amount.

IF FLGS owners choose to mark up their products less, I would over look the extra tidbid here and there.

That being said, I do purchase modeling supplies at the FLGS. Yes my army is internet bought, however, if you do not want me playing at your store, I will purchase my paints else where.

Mr Mystery wrote:
Wrong, actually. And provably so.

This, contrary to many beliefs is an incredibly social hobby. The town I currently live in has a GW, and has had for...erm...15ish years. And do you know what? Every single person I know in this town (thats a couple of hundred at least) I know either directly or indirectly via that shop. It is the common denominator. Simple as. NO website can offer that. Not a single one. No, not even Facebook, unless you are a friend gathering cretin obsessed with having a higher number of 'friends' even though you've likely never met 90% of them.

THAT is why Bricks and Mortar stores are the life blood of the Wargames Hobby. It's how you meet new opponents. It's where you brush up or even learn skills. It is very literally the common ground. The internet is a useful wing of the Hobby Community, but if somehow the interwebs went 'poof' and disappeared right now, the Wargames Hobby would continue. If every Brick and Mortar store somehow went 'pooof' right now, the Hobby as a whole is well and truly buggered.

The only person wrong actually is.....you. Is a a social hobby? Absolutely. But let me point out one particular thing your missing. Rdiddle me this- what are you doing right now? Posting on? Discussing on? Where do you post your army lists? Get tactical advice? News and rumors of upcoming models and armies? Get painting advice? get meetups for games, find new clubs or gaming groups?

Where are you arguing right now? thats right, the internet. If the stores went "poof" right now, we'd do what we did back in the day long before there were many brick and mortars(in fact some of us still dont have decent ones). Play at a friends basement. With the magic wonders of the web, I can find opponents, get advice, buy models all in my fluffy slippers.

Never looked through gamers looking for gamers have you? Its how I got into my last RPG game. Its how we coordinate next warmachine/hordes game night. The wonders of the web that no store can really do. Or at least I should say, none I have ever been to in my lifetime.

The hobby was here long before FLGS, it will be here long after them.

Not to nit-pick here Tripp but if those stores staffed by cave trolls or whatever aren't able to pull you away from the one with the table that has a bridge on it then they aren't actually competition.

And I would rent the hell out of some lockers.

A store that can should absolutely charge a fee. That's a no - brainer. It's just business.

Most stores don't because they can generate more demand by having an active free gaming community, thus encouraging new people to come in and watch product be used, incentivizing them to make that first purchase and join in the local gaming community. Free gaming space is the demand that moves the store's supply and keeps revenue coming in.

Some stores can justify a fee if there's enough of a 'gamer elite' wishing for a more exclusive gaming experience. This is only really made possible if the store can offer some sort of clearly superior gaming experience, like exceptional facilities, terrain, screening out the unwashed cave troll masses... If your community is large enough and select enough to support a membership club without damaging your inventory demand, you as a store owner should go for it.

Hmmm, as someone who has worked retail management for years i have to say I agree with both sides of this argument.

When it comes to running a retail shop "The customer is king" the customer pays your bills, and your salary. Treating him like he's a burden to you is the wrong way to run a business. There are several reasons that the logic of this store owner is flawed.

War gaming is great for business. In retail, a customer on average is in your store for less than 20 minutes. If that customer is playing a game that takes 3 hrs to play you have increased your "face time" with the customer 9 fold. If you ignore the customer the entire time he is playing then you have wasted your time. I can't count how many times i've played a game in a store had watched the clerk sit behind the counter reading a comic book the entire game. If i was his boss i would fire him. Customer interaction is key. Should he be standing watching over the game the whole time? no. but to ignore two customers for 3 hours? Idiocy.

While that customer is there for 3 hrs, having drinks, snacks or other amenities available to him should be key. Why because it gets him invested.

Even if the "offending" customer did buy his entire army online that's no reason from a retail perspective to villify him. He's gonna have friends right? They're gonna need armies right? might they buy online? sure, but they might also buy in store. Telling some that they can't be customers in their shop because they bought some of their things elsewhere is stupid. I wouldn't tell a customer in my store to leave unless they were going to spend money. That would make me a bad salesman.

Now, I do agree with a pay to play policy as long as it gets you bonus'. Acess to better tables than the standard customer, or garunteed tables at certain times, or something like that are great ways to create loyal customers. Once a customer buys into the idea of your shop you have them hooked. Studies have shown that consumers who have formed a relationship with a store will purchase in store even at higher prices.

My local store has started introducing a small annual fee, but the reasons why are obvious and fair. It's about 2-3x larger than my local GW, and the costs of running it are high. It's got more tables, food/drinks, a shop area; my GW has 2 cramped 4x4s and the rest is shop and a small painting area.

Membership pays for the electricity, heating, water, rent ect. as well as giving you a further discount to already discounted store prices.

With the only alternative if the store goes under being an uncomfortable GW environment, and the fee being a tiny gesture, I feel it's only fair to try and keep the place running. People who don't pay or see it as rude to even ask could soon find themselves with nowhere to go after work.

Whilst what you're paying for is fair, there are consequences for not paying. Are some people really that far up on their high horse that they'll risk the store going under and ruining the gaming experiences for a lot of other people just in the effort to save £30 per year?

Daggermaw wrote:

When it comes to running a retail shop "The customer is king" the customer pays your bills, and your salary. Treating him like he's a burden to you is the wrong way to run a business. There are several reasons that the logic of this store owner is flawed.....

Now, I do agree with a pay to play policy as long as it gets you bonus'. Acess to better tables than the standard customer, or garunteed tables at certain times, or something like that are great ways to create loyal customers. Once a customer buys into the idea of your shop you have them hooked. Studies have shown that consumers who have formed a relationship with a store will purchase in store even at higher prices.

You make good points, but I need to point out one thing. When the customer doesn't buy from your store, are they still a customer? I think not but I don't work in retail. They may have friends they can bring in, true, but unless their friends are above their influence, which pulled them into the hobby, then they will go the cheap route as well.

On the loyalty point, I agree but everyone is different. Some people will scoff at instore prices because of the deals you can get online. I don't even think store prices are premium because they are the same as retail GW, but without shipping costs. I consider that a small, very small price to pay, especially since once one buys an army, unless they just buy extras or a NEW army, they are done spending money on merchandise on a large scale....

Also everyone should keep in mind that you pay 35 USD for a box of marines. That's not 35 bucks the store gets pure profit, because they had to pay for those marines, and the lights, and rent, etc.

I want to say this generally again to those browsing this thread, the membership is up for discussion as an option. I love when people leap with both arms to extremes.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Avatar 720 wrote:Whilst what you're paying for is fair, there are consequences for not paying. Are some people really that far up on their high horse that they'll risk the store going under and ruining the gaming experiences for a lot of other people just in the effort to save £30 per year?

Some people are, yes and they are quite lame. I chose this hobby knowing it was expensive, I consider it a monthly bill! I set aside funds for it. I suppose it is a project that I manage. Part of it is the store, because without the store, there is the garage/basement. Those are great places if you want a quick game after hours but as my only option, my interest would wain significantly as it has since RT days.

taoofss. I realize you werent saying me. I just wanted to respond to over charging. the items in my store are at retail much like the price you indicated on your post. you cant really sell all the time below retail in a store due to other costs like rent, electricity, and so on. online dealers can afford to do it since they dont really need much space.

i dont recall who said it but i dont and would not kick people out simply because they came in and played here. I talk to all of my customers and try to interact as often as possible. if you came in and played here cool. if you bought nothing o well no biggie. if you cam in say a dozen times and did this and basically provide nothing to this community or the store then i would address it and it would more than likely be a please dont come back thing. basically i dont care if people come into play. a lot of times it is like test driving a car.
internet wording so fickle. if only we all could transport quickly to and from. being here in person is so much easier.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
I am glad this happened. Like others said I learned to watch how I say things. I usually do but I guess this time around not so well. I also have some ideas on how to approach all of this in general. I thank all of you for the insight and this will help me make a final decision on how we put the new tables to use.
Happy New Year.
Zombie Dice as a drinking game is awesome by the way.

chrispryor wrote:taoofss. I realize you werent saying me. I just wanted to respond to over charging. the items in my store are at retail much like the price you indicated on your post. you cant really sell all the time below retail in a store due to other costs like rent, electricity, and so on. online dealers can afford to do it since they dont really need much space.

The following obviously isn't the same situations in all stores but this was with mine. When I was starting my army, I went to my local FLGS. I asked the owner if they were doing any sort of discount for 40k. I told him I wanted to purchase an entire army. He flat out told me "no." He could offer me nothing. Whats my incentive to buy at this store? Whats my incentive to over pay? I was willing to spend up to 500 dollars that day then and there if the store would work with me a little. But since there was no budging room for him, I took my business else where.

If store owners want to mark up their prices by 40 percent of whole sale, then expect players to purchase their items online. Like I said, everyone's got to balance their checkbooks. Its absolutely silly for the OP's FLGS to frown upon or even ban players who have internet armies.

you are right

I've heard of membership fees like that. I believe good old Dakka Dakka the brick
and mortar store had them.

I would shop at a store with cool terrain. I would pay to play at that same
store. However, not being from wherever this is, I'll never get a chance to
weigh in on this matter in meat-space. Ah well.

Avatar 720 wrote:My local store has started introducing a small annual fee, but the reasons why are obvious and fair. It's about 2-3x larger than my local GW, and the costs of running it are high.

The stores I go to pay for those costs by - and this is going to seem really out there - selling stuff. Turns out the business owner just like, does that, with his business, instead of asking for donations to keep the lights on. Maybe at some point during the process of filing for a corporation, picking out a spot to put his shop in, signing up for the lease, etc, he realized that he wasn't opening a branch of the Salvation Army.

Taoofss wrote:If store owners want to mark up their prices by 40 percent of whole sale, then expect players to purchase their items online. Like I said, everyone's got to balance their checkbooks. Its absolutely silly for the OP's FLGS to frown upon or even ban players who have internet armies.

The "markup" you speak of is not a "markup" at all, but rather the MSRP of the item. Just because the wholesale price is less than the MSRP doesn't mean the retailer is going to sell it to you at that price. The MSRP is the price. Now, the reason that online retailers usually have the ability to discount the MSRP more than a brick and mortar store is the smaller overhead burden that the online retailer has.

So you're right, an online retailer has the ability to offer more of a discount over a brick and mortar store, but that "discount" is not related to any kind of "markup". A "markup" would be if the retailer sold for more than the MSRP.

And to go along with the whole markup thing, GW actually controls what kind of discounts you can offer... If you mark down your product too much too often, they stop selling it to you. You then get to go through independent distributors... which means paying more for your product. If everyone bought online then you would not have a local shopto go pick up your hobby supplies let alone play. If you look the store in question it is a partner store, check your White Dwarf, and GW would frown upon a blanket discount and take away the other perks that the store gets. If I sold GW product out of my house, I could offer a huge discount too... Pretty much just being a middle man at that point, not really providing anything to the community.

"Membership has its privileges" or so they say... Sounds like you get to play regardless of whether or not you pay for membership, just not on the extra cool, kick ass tables. I would pay for that.

Happy New Year!

whitedragon wrote:

Taoofss wrote:If store owners want to mark up their prices by 40 percent of whole sale, then expect players to purchase their items online. Like I said, everyone's got to balance their checkbooks. Its absolutely silly for the OP's FLGS to frown upon or even ban players who have internet armies.

The "markup" you speak of is not a "markup" at all, but rather the MSRP of the item. Just because the wholesale price is less than the MSRP doesn't mean the retailer is going to sell it to you at that price. The MSRP is the price. Now, the reason that online retailers usually have the ability to discount the MSRP more than a brick and mortar store is the smaller overhead burden that the online retailer has.

So you're right, an online retailer has the ability to offer more of a discount over a brick and mortar store, but that "discount" is not related to any kind of "markup". A "markup" would be if the retailer sold for more than the MSRP.

Not true, before I moved to the Jersey area, I frequented a brick and mortar store(TW) that would offer 15-25 percent off GW items if you spent a certain amount. The owner was willing to work with his customers. The store charged a little more then online stores but I was willing to pay the extra for not have to deal with shipping. His prices were marked up 15-25 percent of wholesale. It all depends on the individual FLGS and how much they want to make off of you.

And by "markup" I am obviously refering to the amount of money charged over whole sale. And obviously I have no problems for FLGS charging more money then wholesale prices.

Taoofss wrote:A store is only able to charge a membership fee if A. The quality of their store is way above the stores around them or B. they are the only FLGS around. There is no such place around me.

While I do buy most of my army online, it's entirely the store's fault. Most stores mark up GW product by 40 percent. Online, I can find GW products that are marked up around 15 percent. I did the math, buying my army online saved me close to 200 dollars. Its one thing to support your FLGS, its another to be robbed blind by them. Everyone has to balance a check book.

Example: Online I can get a box of boyz for 17 dollars. At my FLGS, they are sold for 24. I need about 12 boxes of boyz for my army. That right there is 84 dollars alone. Not a small amount.

IF FLGS owners choose to mark up their products less, I would over look the extra tidbid here and there.

That being said, I do purchase modeling supplies at the FLGS. Yes my army is internet bought, however, if you do not want me playing at your store, I will purchase my paints else where.

I'm sure that 3.70 purchast of paint now and then is a real incentive to provide you with a place to play.

Everyone has to balance a check book.

Correct, and Everyone includes the people running those stores gamers want to play at. Balancing the checkbook means paying the rent, and actually taking home a paycheck. When that doesn't happen, the store closes.

While I do buy most of my army online, it's entirely the store's fault.

The store isn't at fault for your decision to buy online. It's your choice to do so. Your local store has no say in how you make your decision of where to purchase.

At the same time, if you aren't buying from them, don't expect much in return from them either.

I'll add the caveat that spending 500.00 at once is a bit differnet than 22.75 at a time. I would expect that most store owners, myself included, would give a discount on a purchase like that, even if we offer no discounts normally.

mikhaila wrote:

Taoofss wrote:A store is only able to charge a membership fee if A. The quality of their store is way above the stores around them or B. they are the only FLGS around. There is no such place around me.

While I do buy most of my army online, it's entirely the store's fault. Most stores mark up GW product by 40 percent. Online, I can find GW products that are marked up around 15 percent. I did the math, buying my army online saved me close to 200 dollars. Its one thing to support your FLGS, its another to be robbed blind by them. Everyone has to balance a check book.

Example: Online I can get a box of boyz for 17 dollars. At my FLGS, they are sold for 24. I need about 12 boxes of boyz for my army. That right there is 84 dollars alone. Not a small amount.

IF FLGS owners choose to mark up their products less, I would over look the extra tidbid here and there.

That being said, I do purchase modeling supplies at the FLGS. Yes my army is internet bought, however, if you do not want me playing at your store, I will purchase my paints else where.

I'm sure that 3.70 purchast of paint now and then is a real incentive to provide you with a place to play.

Everyone has to balance a check book.

Correct, and Everyone includes the people running those stores gamers want to play at. Balancing the checkbook means paying the rent, and actually taking home a paycheck. When that doesn't happen, the store closes.

While I do buy most of my army online, it's entirely the store's fault.

The store isn't at fault for your decision to buy online. It's your choice to do so. Your local store has no say in how you make your decision of where to purchase.

At the same time, if you aren't buying from them, don't expect much in return from them either.

I'll add the caveat that spending 500.00 at once is a bit differnet than 22.75 at a time. I would expect that most store owners, myself included, would give a discount on a purchase like that, even if we offer no discounts normally.

It's not just 3.70 for one can of paint. It was more like 20 bottles of paint, 2 sprays, hobby tools, green stuff, a ton of additional brushes and basing materials. All said close to 150 dollars worth of materials. That was the initial investment alone. I've since purchase more paints and brushes.

If a store has a policy of no internet army, they also lose money from what they would make from paints and other non-model specific 40k materials. It REALLY adds up. So yes, a 3.70 paint should be incentive to provide a gaming area.

Since purchasing my army, I've visited other stores in the area. MOST of them offer some kind of deal on 40k, i.e. buy 20 dollars worth of items get a bottle of paint for free or 4 dollars in store credit. Something along those lines. Had the store I visited offered something like this, there is no doubt in my mind I would have bought my army from them.

Your local store has a huge say in how you make your purchase decision. If they do a "start an army" escalation league type of thing with members who are part of the league receiving 20 percent off 40k items, then guess what, a shopper will most likely buy the majority of his army at that store. When a store offers nothing at all, hey guess what.

Again, this was my specific experience. Your local FLGS may run things different. I was just really turned off by the way this store was unwilling to work with me. Yup they don't really need to provide me anything, I understand. But I don't have to buy my army there either.

MikeMcSomething wrote:

Avatar 720 wrote:My local store has started introducing a small annual fee, but the reasons why are obvious and fair. It's about 2-3x larger than my local GW, and the costs of running it are high.

The stores I go to pay for those costs by - and this is going to seem really out there - selling stuff. Turns out the business owner just like, does that, with his business, instead of asking for donations to keep the lights on. Maybe at some point during the process of filing for a corporation, picking out a spot to put his shop in, signing up for the lease, etc, he realized that he wasn't opening a branch of the Salvation Army.

I'm sorry, was there a point hidden behind all that sarcasm? Because if there was then you've hidden it well, really you have.

My experience has been this: As soon as you establish a class system, every customer will find some reason to be smug, dismissive, and/or outraged. If the owner sets up special, members only tables and benefits, this store is probably doomed. It's not that difficult to figure out when a customer is rude, disruptive or destructive. These are the only customers that a store doesn't need, and the owner is perfectly in his rights to ban them. All other business should be happily welcomed, from big buyers to small spenders. You never know when a small spender will turn into a big one, or bring his big spending friends.

If a store treats me with an open and welcoming attitude, I will reply in kind, give them my business, respect their tables and terrain, and bring my friends. If a store doesn't treat me with an open and welcoming attitude, I will reply in kind, and take my business elsewhere.

Krak_kirby wrote:
If a store treats me with an open and welcoming attitude, I will reply in kind, give them my business, respect their tables and terrain, and bring my friends. If a store doesn't treat me with an open and welcoming attitude, I will reply in kind, and take my business elsewhere.

A good point, that applies to most any business and not just gaming stores.

I kept doing my best to smile at people today, even with a hangover.)

I am curious about the store owners' opinions about something beyond the "internet armies."

Today I played a game in my local store against a new guy I hadn't seen in there before. His army consisted mostly of rather horrible plaster recasts of the big models like raiders, dreads and defilers. His basic infantry were actual models, but his terminators were plaster too.

What do you do as a store owner with a guy like that? Do you try to turn him into a customer? Ban him on the spot?

Avatar 720 wrote:

MikeMcSomething wrote:

Avatar 720 wrote:My local store has started introducing a small annual fee, but the reasons why are obvious and fair. It's about 2-3x larger than my local GW, and the costs of running it are high.

The stores I go to pay for those costs by - and this is going to seem really out there - selling stuff. Turns out the business owner just like, does that, with his business, instead of asking for donations to keep the lights on. Maybe at some point during the process of filing for a corporation, picking out a spot to put his shop in, signing up for the lease, etc, he realized that he wasn't opening a branch of the Salvation Army.

I'm sorry, was there a point hidden behind all that sarcasm? Because if there was then you've hidden it well, really you have.

Seemed pretty obvious.

Treating your store like a soup kitchen that needs your donations to stay afloat is just obscuring the fact that it is a business. If sales don't ''pay for the electricity, bills, etc" then there is a problem, and puffing up your feathers and pretending that you're awesome for donating cash to a failing business isn't going to make that problem go away.

This is probably why my painfully obvious point eluded you - when your store owner has twisted you around to the point where you feel like a selfless hero for paying his bills without getting any merchandise for it, it probably makes it really difficult to understand that there are businesses out there that can actually *gasp* pay their own bills.

My soon-to-be-former LGS (The Outpost) charged for membership (and per game as well). It was a military disposals store that sold gaming stuff.

They actually had a large core of players who regularly turned up to play (large games room upstairs with lots of tables and terrain).

They are terminating the gaming sales from this month and will no longer be allowing the use of the upstairs room for the purpose as they are returning to being a solely Military disposals store.

This leaves the 30-odd (some very odd) players with the option of playing in each others' garages/games rooms or nothing.

just2fierce wrote:
Anyone ever heard of your local gaming store charging memberships in order to use terrain and play at the store? Also, it says that a person who buys their army online is not allowed to use the store's tables and terrain.........

wtf??? is this ridiculous or what?????really??? I honestly can't believe I saw this and it is a store only 1.5 hours away from me


thoughts? input?

sky fox games in oshawa did that before, it failed as most of there players went to toronto.

use of terrian i can understand. but if you buy an army online?!?! thats just moronic.

just2fierce wrote:
Anyone ever heard of your local gaming store charging memberships in order to use terrain and play at the store? Also, it says that a person who buys their army online is not allowed to use the store's tables and terrain.........

The online army thing is just silly (as many, many others have said before, I'm sure). Unenforceable and just plain mean to people who buy online for cheaper prices - especially if you consider the Aussies who pay something like 30% markup (I may be wrong, I'm pulling that number out of my ass here) on regular prices.

As for the store charging membership, I don't see why it's a big problem, unless it's some exorbitant price. My store has a schedule for what games are playing on what nights, as they have games going on for all kinds of games throughout the week - be it Anima Tactics, Flames of War, Warhammer Fantasy Battle, 40k, or various TCGs. For the most part, the gamers just get pulled into the one night a week for their chosen game, though I don't think any games other than the two Warhammers fill up the entire gaming room. There is some free play available, but league players have first rights to tables, since they need them to play for the week.

The store has terrain, but it's completely unavailable to anyone, and is specially reserved for tournament play only, or if you pay to reserve a table for a game. To be fair though, the terrain is very, very nice, and it was only bad experiences that caused the owner to put it away for the most part. The store also has an optional membership that regulars can pay - $30 for the year, which gives a 10% discount off everything in the store save for food, and the option to stay there past closing.

If he is so concerned about losing sales because of online competition why not just lower his prices and keep his customers happy. He won't be making a loss as the people that were buying online will now be paying him instead

Hi all.
I think making the distinction between retail space , and hobby area is a valid one.
My FLGS let us gamers use one of the upstairs store room to game in.
All the gamers chipped in £1 per week, which was used to buy chairs tables terrain etc.
The money was for the gameing space was paid by the gamers , and used by the gamers.

The shop sold stuff.

If the shop owner put up his prices to cover the gaming space expences. How would this be fair to the customers NOT using the gaming space.

Concidering over HALF of GW RRP is to cover the costs of its B&M stores.
It makes buying stuff from GW and NOT using GW stores to play games in, very poor value for money doesnt it?

TTFN

Lanrak wrote:Hi all.
I think making the distinction between retail space , and hobby area is a valid one.
My FLGS let us gamers use one of the upstairs store room to game in.
All the gamers chipped in £1 per week, which was used to buy chairs tables terrain etc.
The money was for the gameing space was paid by the gamers , and used by the gamers.

The shop sold stuff.

If the shop owner put up his prices to cover the gaming space expences. How would this be fair to the customers NOT using the gaming space.

Concidering over HALF of GW RRP is to cover the costs of its B&M stores.
It makes buying stuff from GW and NOT using GW stores to play games in, very poor value for money doesnt it?

TTFN

HI,
GW sells through 3 channels.
1) Wholesale to independent stores and distributors at a whole sale discount. The profit from selling GW products goes to paying the stores rent.
2) Through their own stores. The difference between wholesale and retail is the profit derived by selling at full rrp and goes to pay the rent and costs of the store
3) Through mail order, at full RRP. Probably the most profitable for them.

You hate GW Lanrak, every post is some aspect of it, with a different twist or flavor.

TTFN

Hi Mikhaila.
'Hate' is a very negative emotion I dont think I suffer from, in reguards to GW.

I have nothing but good things to say about the good GW games and great people that work(ed) at GW. (SGs and GW staff that belive in gameplay and VFM.)

I think GW plc has a inefficient buisness plan, (due to incompetant corperate managment,) and as such rely on thier customers paying far more than they should, to support it.
And as that reflects on many discussions on these forums , I feel it within my rights to express these concerns.

Warhammer World is now charging money to use the tables for events.

Maybe 'charging for tables' will be rolled out across the GW stores as well?


TTFN

MikeMcSomething wrote:Seemed pretty obvious.

Treating your store like a soup kitchen that needs your donations to stay afloat is just obscuring the fact that it is a business. If sales don't ''pay for the electricity, bills, etc" then there is a problem, and puffing up your feathers and pretending that you're awesome for donating cash to a failing business isn't going to make that problem go away.

This is probably why my painfully obvious point eluded you - when your store owner has twisted you around to the point where you feel like a selfless hero for paying his bills without getting any merchandise for it, it probably makes it really difficult to understand that there are businesses out there that can actually *gasp* pay their own bills.

Tables are one of the services that's one offer. Paying £2.50 (which is what my FLGS charges) for the right to use the tables for the day is no different in my mind to paying for what I eat or drink. There's a few reasons for that:

1) The tables are high quality, far better than I could manage by myself at home. Playing on them is far more enjoyable than on my living room floor with my own tiny terrain collection, squeezed between my sofa and model cabinet. There is plenty of room around them, easy access to snacks and toilet facilities, good terrain (both the owner's own stuff and stuff that he rents from a local club) and a huge variety - there's between 18-24 tables set up in the store at any time, and the boards + terrain on them change often.
2) If I want to play Apocalypse and drag two tables together (necessitating a bit of hassle) or Planetstrike and use 5 bastions, that stuff is accommodated. If I just want to bash through a game of 40k, then the tables are already set up for me - I don't have to drag out a table, then a board, then the terrain box, then tear it all down again at the end of the night. This is significantly more convenient for me.
3) Quality tables cost money to set up, and money to maintain. Why should these costs not be covered by the people using them?

Your post presents a false dichotomy, and also misrepresents the situation. I'm not 'donating' anything - a donation is a voluntary act of charity given for altruistic reasons, in which the giving party receives no tangible benefit for his or her action. I receive a tangible benefit - I am able to use the table space, which for the reasons I have highlighted above is a benefit I like to have. If I don't pay, I don't get to use one of the services the store offers, in the same way that I can't just take a drink out of the fridge and drink it because I bought a pot of paint. The false dichotomy comes with your comparison of sales vs. 'donations' - if we phrase this correctly, as sales vs. services, we can see the falsehood. The store can offer me both products for sale (models, drinks and snacks, wargaming paraphernalia) and services (use of the table space). Both are valid things to charge the customer for.

The issue here seems to be one of entitlement. A lot of posters (mostly Americans, I would guess because the FLGS system is much more common over there) seem to have the impression that the shop should bend to their desires because they are 'customers' and that paying for something in the shop entitles one to use everything in the shop to one's heart's content. This seems like a frighteningly immature attitude to a business - the owner needs to make money, and one of the options available to him or her is charging for use of the tables. Having an extra revenue stream beyond just selling stuff (which many posters seem to feel includes 'if I buy a few pots of paint totalling £25 every few months, I should be able to use the tables all day every day because I'm a 'customer') is not a bad thing and is not a request for charity. This especially applies when the charge is to use one of the aspects of the business which has both a high set-up cost, and then continual maintenance costs resulting from its use.

Quickly addressing the completely ridiculous point about '40% mark-up', the difference between the wholesale price and the customer's price is the money that the owner makes, which pays for his shop to stay open and his lights to stay on. If his costs are lower, he can afford a better discount. If they're higher, he necessarily charges closer to the RRP in order to cover the higher costs. Internet retailers in general have lower costs because they don't run shops - there's lower overheads so they can afford to make less money per sale. Tying this in to the discussion on table charges, I'm sure you like having a 10% discount in the store, or even higher depending on the owner; would you rather spend more per item you buy, even if you don't use the table space, or pay less but pay for the table when you do choose to use it?

chromedog wrote:My soon-to-be-former LGS (The Outpost) charged for membership (and per game as well). It was a military disposals store that sold gaming stuff.

They actually had a large core of players who regularly turned up to play (large games room upstairs with lots of tables and terrain).

They are terminating the gaming sales from this month and will no longer be allowing the use of the upstairs room for the purpose as they are returning to being a solely Military disposals store.

This leaves the 30-odd (some very odd) players with the option of playing in each others' garages/games rooms or nothing.

Rent a church or school hall on an evening?

If some of you can take charge to make a gaming night and run a club from somewhere you can still make a go of a community someplace.

Personally, like many of you, I do most of my purchasing on-line, but if I had an FLGS, I'd support them somewhat. I don't mind paying full retail for Rules & Codices and I might buy a squad or two at said FLGS as part of the compact that'd give me a place to play.For example, in my old FLGS in England, whilst I bought most of my Salamanders army on-line, I did but a Vindicator, a Land Speeder & a Terminator box from the store.

More than a few posters in here (corrode's post is the most recent example) keep trying to paint themselves as somehow more mature, intelligent, charitable, etc. than the average gamer by virtue of being more willing to hand out cash for nothing.

Here's the thing guys, being willing to pay for something you can get for free doesn't somehow make you smarter/more mature/more charitable/whatever, it just makes you easier to price discriminate.

And if you can't get good tables for free, then you are in a situation where you have to pay because your market sucks and you're unwilling to realize it.

MikeMcSomething wrote:More than a few posters in here (corrode's post is the most recent example) keep trying to paint themselves as somehow more mature, intelligent, charitable, etc. than the average gamer by virtue of being more willing to hand out cash for nothing.

Here's the thing guys, being willing to pay for something you can get for free doesn't somehow make you smarter/more mature/more charitable/whatever, it just makes you easier to price discriminate.

And if you can't get good tables for free, then you are in a situation where you have to pay because your market sucks and you're unwilling to realize it.

I wasn't aware that quality tables, terrain and space to use those things (bear in mind that I live in a tiny flat and a 6'x4' board literally takes up so much of my front room that attempting to play with it becomes incredibly awkward) was free. Could you direct me to the charity that's handing those things out so that I can get them?

Corrode wrote:

MikeMcSomething wrote:More than a few posters in here (corrode's post is the most recent example) keep trying to paint themselves as somehow more mature, intelligent, charitable, etc. than the average gamer by virtue of being more willing to hand out cash for nothing.

Here's the thing guys, being willing to pay for something you can get for free doesn't somehow make you smarter/more mature/more charitable/whatever, it just makes you easier to price discriminate.

And if you can't get good tables for free, then you are in a situation where you have to pay because your market sucks and you're unwilling to realize it.

I wasn't aware that quality tables, terrain and space to use those things (bear in mind that I live in a tiny flat and a 6'x4' board literally takes up so much of my front room that attempting to play with it becomes incredibly awkward) was free. Could you direct me to the charity that's handing those things out so that I can get them?

Try any FLGS I've ever been to. I've frequented a lot of them over the years and have never once had to pay for table use or a membership to use their space. We're far from being entitled, it's just that paying to use the gaming areas is more often the exception, not the norm you see it as, at least on this side of the pond.

The only place I can think of that I could game for free in the local area is the various Games Workshop stores, where the table space is much smaller, much lower quality, and the staff are apt to try and squeeze you onto a 4'x4' board since that way another game can still fit on the board (which in small shops is often an 8'x'4' realm of battle). The other options are either clubs or shops, which around here both charge £2.50 for the use of their stuff. It's also worth considering that the terrain and boards available at the shop in particular is head and shoulders above that available elsewhere, which is worth paying for IMO.

*shrugs* At least 3 of the stores I've frequented had Games Day worthy terrain thanks to engineers or Graphics Designers. One store had much of the terrain done by a certain Ed Bourelle, current Project Manager for Privateer Press, back when he was a Press Ganger and running Skeleton Key Games.

The others were none to shabby, either.

The shop Corrode refers to is Cut and Thrust Wargaming.

It was also my local gaming store until last month when I moved to the US.

The fee is £2.50 per person playing. You get an 8x4 table with excellent terrain, washroom facilities, seating and a clean and hospitable environment for that fee.

The shop has 2 floors of dedicated gaming space with 20 something tables and is entirely for tabletop wargaming.

It also has a snack bar serving hot beverages, dedicated painting tables that are free to use with angled daylight lighting and you are surrounded by mature(ish) fellow gamers and hobbyists.

It is not the crowded, small, poorly heated, brat infested free crèche that the Broadmead GW had become.

£2.50 for as long as I like in that environment to game as I see fit?

That's a bloody bargain. I was entirely happy to pay that fee.

Just my .02 on this topic...

Charging players to play on your tables and terrain at a game store isn't unheard of, however there are ways to do it so that give your customers more for their money and they don't feel like they have to pay for "Memberships".

For starters if you have a good-sized game store with table and terrain space, then to take advantage of it you should be running leagues, campaigns, and demos on it. If you have a store league or campaign, then there's nothing wrong with charging a few bucks to the players to play in it. For example: Let's say that I advertise up in the store that on Wednesday nights I'm going to run a 40k league for 6 weeks and will take up to 24 players. I then post a sign-up sheet in the store for players and charge them $10 each to play in it. Now, at the end of the league you award prize support (aprox $60-$100 worth) and the remainder of the money collected goes to the store to maintain the tables, terrain, ect. Not to mention that out of the 24 players playing in the league, many of them are going to shop while they are at the store. The more customers you have in your store and the more games you have going, the more product sells.

A good store owner will book events like that constantly and keep rotating games on different nights of the week.... On rare days that there isn't an event going, then you allow open gaming on the tables to play.

Also, a smart game store owner with tables and terrain will ALWAYS want people playing games on his tables. It is free advertisment and an easier time to sell the product if a customer walks into a store asking about a game if you already have players playing it.

Platuan4th wrote:

Corrode wrote:

MikeMcSomething wrote:And if you can't get good tables for free, then you are in a situation where you have to pay because your market sucks and you're unwilling to realize it.

I wasn't aware that quality tables, terrain and space to use those things (bear in mind that I live in a tiny flat and a 6'x4' board literally takes up so much of my front room that attempting to play with it becomes incredibly awkward) was free. Could you direct me to the charity that's handing those things out so that I can get them?

Try any FLGS I've ever been to. I've frequented a lot of them over the years and have never once had to pay for table use or a membership to use their space. We're far from being entitled, it's just that paying to use the gaming areas is more often the exception, not the norm you see it as, at least on this side of the pond.

"Far from being entitled", you say?

Just because it's common in the US doesn't mean it isn't a sense of entitlement you're displaying. The stores which give us nice tables and a place to play without charging for them ARE giving us a valuable service for free. Acting as if these services are obligatory, like we are entitled to them for free, or like there's no good reason for any store to charge for them is silly. We're not entitled to get those things for free any more than we're entitled to have someone else shovel our driveways free of snow for no charge.

Many stores do provide these services for free as loss-leaders, as a way of supporting an active group of players in the area of their store, encouraging people to buy stuff. But this is a business choice; not a service they are obligated to provide. Charging for the space and the tables is an equally valid choice. Which is the better business decision depends on the area & costs of space, as well as the culture of the players in the area and their receptiveness to the idea.

I'm fortunate enough to play at a store which has a large gaming space and 8+ tables available pretty much all the time for free use. They also have a computer with Army Builder available for general use. But I'm aware that it costs the store money to provide all that stuff, and if I want them to stay around and keep providing those services which are valuable to me, it's a smart move for me to put money in the owner's pocket on a regular basis.

Wolflord Patrick wrote:Also, a smart game store owner with tables and terrain will ALWAYS want people playing games on his tables. It is free advertisment and an easier time to sell the product if a customer walks into a store asking about a game if you already have players playing it.

"Always" is a big word. What if those players buy all their models online? Does he want those players in his shop, putting wear and tear on his tables, and likely talking to other players about their practice of saving money by spending online instead of supporting the shop?

Overall I agree that it's usually a very good thing for the shop owner if he's got people actively playing in the shop. Successful shop owners like Mikhaila prefer this model, and don't charge for the use of their tables. But this kind of advertising isn't actually "free"; space and tables and maintenance for those tables cost money.

Mannahnin wrote:
"Far from being entitled", you say?

Just because it's common in the US doesn't mean it isn't a sense of entitlement you're displaying. The stores which give us nice tables and a place to play without charging for them ARE giving us a valuable service for free. Acting as if these services are obligatory, like we are entitled to them for free, or like there's no good reason for any store to charge for them is silly. We're not entitled to get those things for free any more than we're entitled to have someone else shovel our driveways free of snow for no charge.

Sorry, Mannahnin, but at no point did I say that such services were obligatory nor was paying a bad idea or silly. That's reading a bit more into my post than what it states. It was more a response to the previous poster basically implying(from how it reads to me) that it was some sort of fluke or mistake that we got to play for free at a non-GW store because he wasn't or isn't able to. If he didn't mean that with his heavily sarcastic(and slightly caustic) post, I apologize. As well, he seems to be implying that pay-to-play is the only way to get quality terrain to play on. Again, if he doesn't mean that, I apologize.

I'm not against the idea of pay-to-play(I've done it several times with game store computers), just that I've never faced it with tabletops. If I moved to an area with a store like that(with no quality competition offering free play, though either way a store would get that money), I'd happily pay if they asked me to.

I'd rather use that money for more models/toys given the choice, but I'd be willing. It's just that free play has been my experience more than pay-to-play.

Mike McSomething was dismissive and insulting about stores charging. Another poster made a ridiculous argument against the MSRP markup. Corrode gave a detailed explanation of why and how his FLGS charges, why it's worth his time and money, and why it's not charity (as Mike claimed) to pay for a service. Mike somehow took offense to this argument (surprising, given how flippant his own was), and got snarky, and Corrode snarked back a little.

I'm not sure why you felt offended by it. I do think that the argument you put forward- that you're accustomed to being provided this service for free, and therefore he should be able to get it for free too, is a display of you feeling entitled to this free service.

Mannahnin wrote:Mike McSomething was dismissive and insulting about stores charging. Another poster made a ridiculous argument against the MSRP markup. Corrode gave a detailed explanation of why and how his FLGS charges, why it's worth his time and money, and why it's not charity (as Mike claimed) to pay for a service. Mike somehow took offense to this argument (surprising, given how flippant his own was), and got snarky, and Corrode snarked back a little.

I'm not sure why you felt offended by it. I do think that the argument you put forward- that you're accustomed to being provided this service for free, and therefore he should be able to get it for free too, is a display of you feeling entitled to this free service.

No one is feeling a sense of entitlement to anything in a gaming store. I think you misunderstand and misrepresent Platuan4th's words a little bit. What we are entitled to is our money. Some people think that paying to play is not worth their money, and they are entitled to their opinion, and to vote with their dollar. Other people think that it is worth their money, and they vote with their dollar as well.

However, damning one side or another is what gets this conversation on track.

I think what we are all trying to say is that we expect "value" for our money spent, and in some cases we judge that value differently. Some believe that they get more value shopping online (usually with a larger discount) and that's fine, but I think the point that those posters are making is that the business owner that shuns these customers is the business owner that is losing business. Mikhaila has also made some good points to that effect, but their argument is that Best Buy or Walmart doesn't kick you out of the store because you bought something from Amazon, because just because you shopped online doesn't mean you won't shop at their store. Walking in the door is the first step in the retail process anyway, and most retail veterans know this.

On the other hand, people that are disruptive and damaging to the retail climate or your store's merchandise (which could be tables and terrain if you're an LGS) are also bad for business so it's in the business owner's best interest to get those people out of the store. (Just like you would be removed from Walmart if you were being disruptive or damaging things in the store.)

Me personally, if I was the business owner, I wouldn't go about it in the same way, but hey, it's his business after all.

MeanGreenStompa wrote:The shop Corrode refers to is Cut and Thrust Wargaming.

It was also my local gaming store until last month when I moved to the US.

The fee is £2.50 per person playing. You get an 8x4 table with excellent terrain, washroom facilities, seating and a clean and hospitable environment for that fee.

The shop has 2 floors of dedicated gaming space with 20 something tables and is entirely for tabletop wargaming.

It also has a snack bar serving hot beverages, dedicated painting tables that are free to use with angled daylight lighting and you are surrounded by mature(ish) fellow gamers and hobbyists.

It is not the crowded, small, poorly heated, brat infested free crèche that the Broadmead GW had become.

£2.50 for as long as I like in that environment to game as I see fit?

That's a bloody bargain. I was entirely happy to pay that fee.

I would have no problem paying $5 US for a day of gaming at a facility like this.

I agree with whitedragon 100%

The thread is basically two camps of people - group A consists of those for whom a decent gaming store is a rare privilege (which makes it worth paying for, but also makes for an unfortunate situation for the gamer, no matter how much they try to convince themselves otherwise, at the end of the day it's a net loss in utility) and group B are those who have several excellent gaming stores with great tables and great environments within easy reach, who are baffled by having to pay at all. Everyone from both groups understands that you need to feel value for your money, and that if someone can charge for something and provide a service that is seen to have value, a person won't necessarily feel bad paying for it.

My "snark" if you will, comes from the attitudes primarily put forward by those in group A - rather than understanding that they are in an unfortunate position, they have performed an intricate series of mental gymnastics that has led to them feeling good about paying for something that a very large amount of other people get for absolutely free.

I agree to a large extent with Whitedragon as well.

I think painting people on the other "side" of the debate with a broad brush is inherently inaccurate and results in overgeneralizations which gloss over fine points and variances in different people's positions. Not everyone in your "Group B" is baffled, and not everyone in your "Group A" find a "decent gaming store" to be a "rare privilege". You display a patronizing attitude when you talk about them going through mental gymnastics or engaging in charity. I'm in "Group B", I suppose, since I have access to good tables for free, but I can certainly understand paying for play space, and have done so in the past.

Can you not see how you're emotionally loading your terms?

You are still displaying a sense of entitlement by labeling your "group A" as unfortunate, and acting as if "group B" is the default and expected position.

Even if a very large number of people do get this service for free, it doesn't mean the majority of them necessarily do. Many places all over the world have expensive rent or limited FLGS options. Perhaps a more accurate and respectful assessment would be to conclude that people in "group B" are very fortunate, for the market forces and culture to favor them with the benefit of gaining this valuable service for free.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

whitedragon wrote:

Mannahnin wrote:Mike McSomething was dismissive and insulting about stores charging. Another poster made a ridiculous argument against the MSRP markup. Corrode gave a detailed explanation of why and how his FLGS charges, why it's worth his time and money, and why it's not charity (as Mike claimed) to pay for a service. Mike somehow took offense to this argument (surprising, given how flippant his own was), and got snarky, and Corrode snarked back a little.

I'm not sure why you felt offended by it. I do think that the argument you put forward- that you're accustomed to being provided this service for free, and therefore he should be able to get it for free too, is a display of you feeling entitled to this free service.

No one is feeling a sense of entitlement to anything in a gaming store. I think you misunderstand and misrepresent Platuan4th's words a little bit. What we are entitled to is our money. Some people think that paying to play is not worth their money, and they are entitled to their opinion, and to vote with their dollar. Other people think that it is worth their money, and they vote with their dollar as well.

You don't think Platuan4th or MikeMcSomething are displaying a sense of entitlement to free gaming space? It looks different from where I'm sitting, although that's not meant as a moral judgment on them.

Absolutely we are each entitled to value for our money, and each entitled to make informed decisions about spending that dollar. This includes the store owner, who is spending money to provide us with gaming space. It's not exactly shocking to many of us that SOME game store owners ask to be compensated for the service they are providing.

The ONLY store in my town charges us to play.

$15 a day...

or we are to buy our army from there. It's a small store, and doesn't stock most things I want. Also, I don't really need to buy another army.

Mannahnin wrote:Absolutely we are each entitled to value for our money, and each entitled to make informed decisions about spending that dollar. This includes the store owner, who is spending money to provide us with gaming space. It's not exactly shocking to many of us that SOME game store owners ask to be compensated for the service they are providing.

I guess that's the part that makes it rub the wrong way. The game store owner is running a business. In running a business, you have to make money. However, you make that money, however you pay the bills is up to you. However, most successful businesses realize that the customer comes first above all, and to alienate the customer is usually bad, because they are the ones that you have to convince to dump money in your place.

With that in mind, it's a little shocking to see a business owner berating his potential customers over something that is essentially, good competition. We all think that maybe there are other methods or recouping your investment than making the customer feel as though he "owes" the business money, when in reality the business relationship is the other way around. We as customers give money because we want what the business is selling, not because the business tells us we have to. That's what rubs people the wrong way.

I said it in my previous post and I'll say it again, Best Buy won't throw you out when you are browsing or sampling their home theatre equipment because you bought (or were planning to buy) online from Amazon. In fact, a good salesman would try to show you the value that Best Buy had through convenience, warranty plan, installation, having it in stock right away, etc to try to make the sale. They absolutely would.

Now, keeping that in mind, that doesn't mean that they will always make the sale, as some people will still choose to buy online at Amazon. However, just because you said no to the salesguy at Best Buy and told him you really liked the deal from Amazon better, he wouldn't immediately throw you out of the store and tell you to never come back. On the contrary, he would tell you that you should consider Best Buy for any peripheral needs, or what have you.

But a cardinal rule of retail is that you never alienate the customer. I feel that's what this whole debate is about. The Game Store Owner in question came off a little like this in his initial posting, and I think that turned a few people off.

whitedragon wrote:

Mannahnin wrote:Absolutely we are each entitled to value for our money, and each entitled to make informed decisions about spending that dollar. This includes the store owner, who is spending money to provide us with gaming space. It's not exactly shocking to many of us that SOME game store owners ask to be compensated for the service they are providing.

I guess that's the part that makes it rub the wrong way. The game store owner is running a business. In running a business, you have to make money. However, you make that money, however you pay the bills is up to you. However, most successful businesses realize that the customer comes first above all, and to alienate the customer is usually bad, because they are the ones that you have to convince to dump money in your place.

Absolutely. And if you read my post at the beginning of the thread, you'll see that I criticised his unprofessional tone and commented that outright banning internet armies was foolish and unenforceable.

whitedragon wrote:[With that in mind, it's a little shocking to see a business owner berating his potential customers over something that is essentially, good competition. We all think that maybe there are other methods or recouping your investment than making the customer feel as though he "owes" the business money, when in reality the business relationship is the other way around. We as customers give money because we want what the business is selling, not because the business tells us we have to. That's what rubs people the wrong way.

He's not berating them over "good competition". They're not his competitors. he was berating people for being parasites; taking advantage of his services and gaining value from his monetary expenditures without returning value in return. What we're talking about here is store owners GIVING the players something (that costs the owner money) for free, and many players taking that service for granted and not acting in their own self-interest to keep the store around. If all the players at a given store buy their armies online instead of buying them at the store, that store is eventually going to close.

The store owner in this case, as further posts through the thread show, did not just try to guilt people. He talked to his players and customers and felt out their opinions on the idea of charging for better tables and prority access. He laid out a clear and reasonable fee for service schedule. He increased awareness of the service he was providing and introduced a system under which he sells acces to a better level of game table to those who are interested in buying that service.

yeah there is a shop near me and they charge a stupid amout of money to use there tables, to join there "gaming club" you have to pay and you have to use there tables. that i cant understand, whats worse is the tables are utter crap, i have more and better scenery of my own but i am not familier enough with folks to invite them round to have a game or 2, and im not paying to use a table to get to know some one to invite them round.

I have run an indipendent shop that sells only GW products before and we never charged any one to play or join ever, we let folks who buy from the net into play it didnt matter it was about having fun and not making money. in my opinon and experiance you make more moeny if people like you, your sotre and your attitude cuz they wanna come back.

gloomygrim wrote:I have run an indipendent shop that sells only GW products before and we never charged any one to play or join ever, we let folks who buy from the net into play it didnt matter it was about having fun and not making money. in my opinon and experiance you make more moeny if people like you, your sotre and your attitude cuz they wanna come back.

Therein lies the entire problem.

gloomygrim wrote:it was about having fun and not making money.

A business based around "having fun and not making money" is a business doomed to fail. Most FLGS's I've come across are ran that way, and very many of them wind up going under because of it.

Honestly, I'm amazed so few FLGS's charge for table space. It seems to me that, since the majority of floorspace in most of them is devoted to playing tables, it would only make sense to use that to help pay the bills.

Not really what i ment barkdreg dude. sorry but i failed to mention this was way back in 2003, before the shop we had clsoed down (the guy whos shop it was mum got cancer and sold off the building to pay for her to go into care) we made a fair amount of profit every day. The game is bassed on having fun and in my experience when people have fun they want to do something again this is how we made money, people came back and brought friends/relatives along but if people dont have fun or feel welcome they probly dont want to come back and if they do it jades there opinion of the store/game and that makes it less likely they will invite folks along or talk about the place in a possitive way.

I can agree that an entire store bassed around having fun is doomed but a store bassed on giving to the customer as well as selling to them stands a better chance of surviving. In todays economic dump you have to do alot to keep people coming back but even that these days isnt a garante.