I recently purchased a space marine army(1 battleforce, devestator squad, commander) after I asked you guys what i should get. After reading the codex i kind of wanted to paint my army in ultramarine colors not because of the special characters, but because of the paint scheme. My recent visit to my store everybody told me that it was a gay move to paint them that color since"they suck" aparently. No further explination just that they suck. And everybody was agreeing, even the freakin tau player, which says alot. Why are they hated

What do you mean "even the Tau player"?

It's not hard to figure out why they're hated. They've been the GW posterboy for years, they're always first in line for a codex update and always get new models, and in the background GW literally comes out and tells you the Ultramarines are the best of the best, and that they're so good every other chapter wishes they could be Ultramarines, too. Ultramarines are everywhere, and whatever you can do they can do better. That's why people don't like them.

I also think their name is stupid. Ultramarines...and they're blue...lol, get it? It's funny, right?

That being said though, I'd tell them to go feth themselves. I don't like them either, but I won't berate someone and call him "gay" for playing them.

Ultramarines aren't vanilla, they're Awesomeberry Blue.

theamericanos wrote:I recently purchased a space marine army(1 battleforce, devestator squad, commander) after I asked you guys what i should get. After reading the codex i kind of wanted to paint my army in ultramarine colors not because of the special characters, but because of the paint scheme. My recent visit to my store everybody told me that it was a gay move to paint them that color since"they suck" aparently. No further explination just that they suck. And everybody was agreeing, even the freakin tau player, which says alot. Why are they hated

Ultramarines are just normal space marines. Nothing bad about them at all. If you like blue go for it. Probably just your friends giving you a hard time.

They don't suck, they are awesome, people are just jealous of their spiffy blue paint job!

I say go for it mate, I've been to plenty of shops and talked about stuff like this, and seriously, anyone that actually bothers to rip on an army because its popular is pretty lame. It's a game, if you like the look of something then do it, don't worry about what other people will say about your army. Just bring it to the greentop and whip them there!

Besides, the only thing in the world that you should be worrying about not liking your army are...girls...

When it comes to that your best bet is just not to bring it up ever. Even if you get married, don't ever let her know.

Why you would ever get married though is beyond me, but still...

Sidstyler wrote:What do you mean "even the Tau player"?

It's not hard to figure out why they're hated. They've been the GW posterboy for years, they're always first in line for a codex update and always get new models, and in the background GW literally comes out and tells you the Ultramarines are the best of the best, and that they're so good every other chapter wishes they could be Ultramarines, too. Ultramarines are everywhere, and whatever you can do they can do better. That's why people don't like them.

I also think their name is stupid. Ultramarines...and they're blue...lol, get it? It's funny, right?

That being said though, I'd tell them to go feth themselves. I don't like them either, but I won't berate someone and call him "gay" for playing them.

i think its reasonable
I think its safe to say at every store there is at least one tau player who thinks he is the ultimate stratigest because he can shoot a big gun. there is one where i play and i think it is safe to say there is one in your store

Regardless of if it has to do with gaming or otherwise, you shouldn't spend too much time worrying about what nerds that hang out in a game store think about anything...

paint them how you want.

Isn't this a gaming discussion board? Where else can we worry about such trivialities? There's a time and a place, and Dakka Dakka is the place.

Ultramarines aren't 'gay'. A lot of people are just tired of them or annoyed at how crammed down our throats they have become. I like them. I will never build them and have no problem with other people playing them. If you like them then play them because nothing sucks worse than painting an army you won't like the feel of aesthetically. But if you do choose to go that rout just know you will get some ribbing from people. It should be good natured though.

Tall Poppy Syndrome.


People like to cut down those that are on top. Ultramarines not only represent the greatest Space Marine Chapter in the fluff, but they're also the brand image that GW has chosen to unify and give cohesion to not only their Space Marine product line, but Warhammer 40,000 as a whole. With that in mind is it any wonder people say they are 'boring'.

I've been collecting Ultramarines since the time when the Dark Angels were black and the Salamanders were the fourth Chapter alongside the Ultras, BA's and Woofs. Back then, as far as the rules were concerned there was almost nothing to differentiate one Marine from another other than their colour scheme. Ultramarines were literally just 'Blue Marines' whereas the Blood Angels were just the 'Red Marines'.

If GW had, for instance, chosen the Blood Angels as their poster boys during this early period of 40K and now every box and rulebook cover had Blood Angels on it, we'd be having this exact same conversation about the 'boring' Blood Angels.

I mean, take this as an example:

Alternate Universe Sidstyler wrote:What do you mean "even the Necron player"?

It's not hard to figure out why they're hated. They've been the GW posterboy for years, they're always first in line for a codex update and always get new models, and in the background GW literally comes out and tells you the Blood Angels are the best of the best, and that they're so good every other chapter wishes they could be Blood Angels, too. Blood Angels are everywhere, and whatever you can do they can do better. That's why people don't like them.

I also think their name is stupid. Blood Angels...and they're red, like blood...lol, get it? It's funny, right?

That being said though, I'd tell them to go feth themselves. I don't like them either, but I won't berate someone and call him "straight" for playing them.

See?



Then there's the 4Chan Factor. 4Chan has a capacity for exaggeration and hyperbole that... well... I'd need lots of exaggeration and hyperbole to describe. The internet's cesspool is particularly adept at taking a concept and running it into the ground until there's nothing left. When the 5th Ed Marine Codex came out they upped the anti-Ultramarine stuff to the nth degree. It didn't help that Matt Ward put in all that "Spiritual Liege" stuff in his designer notes, but 4Chan took the already clichéd anti-Ultramarine Tall Poppy Syndrome shtick and made it worse.


So what to take from all this is that the Ultramarines don't suck - people just like to cut down what is popular or on top.

theamericanos wrote:i think its reasonable
I think its safe to say at every store there is at least one tau player who thinks he is the ultimate stratigest because he can shoot a big gun. there is one where i play and i think it is safe to say there is one in your store

Yeah...yeah there is a Tau player at my store. Me.

Don't know if there are other ones or not, haven't really seen any besides myself. I don't think I'm the "ultimate strategist" though, but seriously, winning with Tau isn't exactly a god-damned cakewalk, either. They're not the kind of army where you can make a bunch of mistakes and still pull off a win...like, say, Ultramarines. You can lose the game at deployment.

Nurglitch wrote:Isn't this a gaming discussion board? Where else can we worry about such trivialities? There's a time and a place, and Dakka Dakka is the place.

calm down man

Mind you, if you have people at your local club/store using the term "gay" as a pejorative, you have bigger problems than deciding on a paint scheme.

I've found the trick to dealing with such people is to agree with them, that whatever it is that they're labelling "gay" is in fact exactly like two hot sweaty men engaging in mindblowing homosexual action. It helps to lick your lips a lot while saying this.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

theamericanos wrote:

Nurglitch wrote:Isn't this a gaming discussion board? Where else can we worry about such trivialities? There's a time and a place, and Dakka Dakka is the place.

calm down man

NO! YOU CALM DOWN!!!!11!

Sidstyler wrote:

theamericanos wrote:i think its reasonable
I think its safe to say at every store there is at least one tau player who thinks he is the ultimate stratigest because he can shoot a big gun. there is one where i play and i think it is safe to say there is one in your store

Yeah...yeah there is a Tau player at my store. Me.

Don't know if there are other ones or not, haven't really seen any besides myself. I don't think I'm the "ultimate strategist" though, but seriously, winning with Tau isn't exactly a god-damned cakewalk, either. They're not the kind of army where you can make a bunch of mistakes and still pull off a win...like, say, Ultramarines. You can lose the game at deployment.

good for you

lol how he just flat out says that

theamericanos wrote:I recently purchased a space marine army(1 battleforce, devestator squad, commander) after I asked you guys what i should get. After reading the codex i kind of wanted to paint my army in ultramarine colors not because of the special characters, but because of the paint scheme. My recent visit to my store everybody told me that it was a gay move to paint them that color since"they suck" aparently. No further explination just that they suck. And everybody was agreeing, even the freakin tau player, which says alot. Why are they hated

I don't really like this thing about equating being "gay" with something negative, it really grates and is something I notice is mostly used by the younger generations. So my first reaction would be to point out that isn't appropriate regardless of the point being made. Frankly it makes me disinclined to listen to anything they say until they start speaking properly.


In general I think that Ultramarines get hate because they are so ubiquitous. They are everywhere in GW material and their armies are everywhere, masses of blue. I'm sure a lot of people don't find the colour scheme attractive and while Space Marines get flak for being the 'easy newbies' army, the Ultramarines are associated with this even more so.

Though the GW obsession with the ultramarines does invite some annoyance, how often are space marine figures released with Ultramarine markings on them leaving the hobbyist to correct the figure just to use it in their different space marine chapter? If GW made all their marines more generic then perhaps they would get less hate. But almost everyone who collects a non-ultramarine space marine army will have had to file off the 'U' of the ultramarines just to use a figure at some point.

A Black Ram wrote:lol how he just flat out says that

I know, right? Best laugh I've had all day.

You know for a guy with a gay Ultramarines army he doesn't have a right to talk...

...I just realized how awkward/hilarious that was after noticing Howard's post about using the word gay derogatorily.

I don't hate ultramarines. I just have a deeply soared hate for them.
They are good chapter. But if they had a different color scheme I would be fine with them. But no they are overplayed at my store, everyone there plays ultramarines. Its like walking through a minefield. Because other chapters are like thrown aside so the ultramarines are given a spot light.
/rage
Anyway Thats what I think of them I respect everyones opinion, except blue people.

That's racist!

Sidstyler wrote:That's racist!

Who am I offending?
Apart from the blue man group?

Just because they're an unrepresented minority that doesn't give you the right!

theamericanos wrote:
I think its safe to say at every store there is at least one tau player who thinks he is the ultimate stratigest because he can shoot a big gun. there is one where i play and i think it is safe to say there is one in your store

You know, there's not that many tau players around as a whole. Regardless me-thinks someones hating since his expensive land raider blew up first turn, or some such reason.

Regardless, Blue space marines are poster boys, thus lame. They are also blue, have lots of cool stories to explain just how blue they are. Did I mention they were blue?

Asherian Command wrote: Apart from the blue man group?

Blue Man Group are people too.

Wait... are they?

People hate the Ultramarines because only good players can win with them, and they are jealous of those mad skills.

That's my take on it, anyway.

H.B.M.C. wrote:

Asherian Command wrote: Apart from the blue man group?

Blue Man Group are people too.

Wait... are they?

No they are not people its like saying Jawas are people. And Caboose is smart.

Sidstyler wrote:Just because they're an unrepresented minority that doesn't give you the right!

The only blue people ive seen are the ones that are choking, nine times outa ten they deserved it

/tg/ (4Chan) didn't exaggerate the hatred, it just found something that was already there. And all memes aside you will still find plenty of fatguys there who don't care either way. /tg/ finds something to hate about every Chapter, the Ultras are hardly alone or special in this regard. DAs are closet homosexuals, SWs are not-so-closet furries, BAs sparkley emo vampires (thanks Twilight), etc. Everyone cops it, the Ultras just cop it the most due to their exposure.

Ultras are no better or worse than any other Chapter. They are just portrayed as being glory hogs who take every opportunity to remind other Chapters of their lineage, etc, etc, etc. Yes we get it, you wrote the Codex. Big frakking deal. The Space Wolves ignored it and they seem to be doing just fine.

Then Matt Ward happened. Nothing says alienate the remainder of your fanbase than claiming your own personal favorite Chapter is better than everyone else's and everyone wants to be like them. And even then it isn't entirely just the fact he is an idiot and did that. It is the flow on effect from it where you have all the little 13 year olds flaunting this around like it is gospel.

In short, non-Ultra marine players RAGE over so much attention being given to a bland Chapter (Which it rightly so since they are the base Vanilla Marines) and having the 'So much better than everyone else' crap shoved down their throats.

So if you want to play Ultras play Ultras. Just expect to cop flak about it because the developers are stupid. The best way to combat this is to just be a bro about it and play the game. Plus usually just saying "I am collecting them because I like the color scheme" usually shuts down the hate. The scheme is awesome, the problem is the baggage that comes with it.

That much is true. I started Ultramarines because you and James (if you remember him) both started Blood Angels, and I prefer blue over red.

That's literally the reason I started with Ultramarines. Of course... we were what... 9 years old then?

As its been pointed out, the fluff in the current codex has really ruined the "image" of the ultramarines..

In previous editions, the UMs have nearly been wiped out by a Tyranid hive fleet, and yet suddenly are back at full strength (almost as if they were never beaten down that small)

and yet, other First Founding chapters have been shoved into a dark shadowy corner where the light of day never shines (read, Iron Hands)

The biggest reason i chose not to paint UMs, even though blue is my favorite color, was mostly due to my not wanting to paint them "by the codex" I originally started with Raven Guard, which have now predominantly been replaced/repainted as Iron Snakes.

Ensis Ferrae wrote:and yet, other First Founding chapters have been shoved into a dark shadowy corner where the light of day never shines (read, Iron Hands)

To be honest, the only time the other First Founding Chapters (other than BA, DA and Wolves) ever got any chance to 'shine' was during the days when they were doing Index Astartes articles. All through 2nd Ed the various Codex Chapters out there were just as the Chaos Legions are now - a paint job, and that's it. The Iron Hands and others like them have never been front and centre and, if anything, are now more represented than they were during all of 3rd and 4th thanks to characters like Shrike, Lysander and even the White Scars guy.

The Iron Hands aren't, of course. They never seem to get any love, but that's nothing new, and certainly not because of the current Marine Codex.

-They are on every space marine box art, the main panel, which makes people feel "forced", which people hate.

-They get the most fluff and the most special characters, which leads to the general feeling of them being "Ultramarines are the best, all other chapters are inferior".

-During the Horus Heresy, while the other Legions were killing each other, fighting and nearly losing to protect the Emperor, what were the Ultras and Guilliman doing? Writing a book telling all the other marines what they're doing wrong, and how to divide themselves up once he took power shortly after the end of the split. So, he's that jerk who tells everyone what to do, after having done none of the work.

Ultras are fine, it's just that some people see them as unimaginative. Don't worry about it, my friend plays ultras and over the years he has made some pretty sweet conversions.

My marines are mostly navy blue, w/ white. I liked the Ultramarine colors, it's just that I wanted to have my own fluff and my own paint scheme, something that I could say "I made this". No book telling me "your chaplain must be in black", no, I just felt like doing my own thing. If the Blue & yellow catches your eye, that's great! Use it.

H.B.M.C. wrote:That much is true. I started Ultramarines because you and James (if you remember him) both started Blood Angels, and I prefer blue over red.

That's literally the reason I started with Ultramarines. Of course... we were what... 9 years old then?

Yeah that sounds about right. Maybe 10. It would have been sometime around '94. From memory there were also more than a few boxes that used BAs/DAs on the cover. And the existence of other Chapters was made much more apparent on those boxes compared to now. You just flipped it over and there were all these alternatives. Now you are lucky to see maybe 2 other non-Ultra Chapters in the minuscule pictures on the sides of the boxes.

Then again back in those days GW sold more than 3 games in store, and had actual content in WD, so diversity wasn't a foreign word to them. I still occasionally pick up one of those WDs from my closet and look it over.

Does anyone else find it somewhat ironic that the Imperium is dying due to stagnation, and that GW itself is also dying due to the stagnation of its product line? Life imitating art.

As "The Tau Player" in my game store I will say this much.

Let them talk. Let them call you gay, and make fun of them because they are the kings of the game.

I promise you you will feel much better when you respond to their insults with a humble "Yea, and you just lost to me and my blue marines."

I take any army I face seriously. I find it rather sad when people try to use this game to compete. It is a game and games are for fun.

I mean why else do we fork over mounds of money for a bunch of plastic?

poontangler wrote:I mean why else do we fork over mounds of money for a bunch of plastic?

To fight the evil of Communism. Capitalism ho!

Atma01 wrote:

poontangler wrote:I mean why else do we fork over mounds of money for a bunch of plastic?

To fight the evil of Communism. Capitalism ho!

...well said sir.

I don't like Space Marines, but I've always liked Ultramarines the best out of all the famous chapters. Their name is an absolute groaner and they're a little goody-two-shoes and their special characters are just as OTT as any other chapter's, but Ever since I started in 2nd Edition I liked them because they were the bog-standard space marine. No special units, no special rules, just the average Joes of the 9 ft tall genetically engineered super-soldier set. Back when Space Wolves could take Wolf Guard terminator units of infinite size with as many heavy weapons as they wanted, it almost seemed to me like players were handicapping themselves by playing Ultramarines. I don't remember if the UMs get some special rules now or not, but for me the reputation of being the army for the player who wants a fair fight has stuck.

Don't listen to the 4channers (nothing good has ever come from there). Don't listen to the other players in your store (if they don't pay for your minis, they don't get to tell you what to play.) Play the army you like.

H.B.M.C. wrote:The Iron Hands aren't, of course. They never seem to get any love, but that's nothing new, and certainly not because of the current Marine Codex.

Ahem...

Flashman wrote:Ahem...

Double ahem:

"To be honest, the only time the other First Founding Chapters (other than BA, DA and Wolves) ever got any chance to 'shine' was during the days when they were doing Index Astartes articles." - Me, about three or four posts ago.


Lern 2 comprehension!!1

Yeah ok, but those babies are still around for the bargain price of £25.00

This White Dwarf article more than explains why people hate the Ultramarines, and you can blame Matt Ward for a lot of it. This is what happens when you let a Fanboi develop a codex, as opposed to someone who is merely enthusiastic about the army.

Was bored and going through one of my unsorted 4Chan folders waiting for stuff to finish downloading. Ah delicious relevance.

Vaktathi wrote:This White Dwarf article more than explains why people hate the Ultramarines, and you can blame Matt Ward for a lot of it. This is what happens when you let a Fanboi develop a codex, as opposed to someone who is merely enthusiastic about the army.

And that's the thing. The Codex itself doesn't crap on about "Spiritual Liege" and how "Everyone wants to be an Ultramarine!" (at least, it didn't when I read it - I may have missed the section) it's just Matt "C.S. Goto" Ward and his constant brainfarting that's caused the current crop of anti-Ultramarine Internet Hyperbole.

H.B.M.C. wrote:

Vaktathi wrote:This White Dwarf article more than explains why people hate the Ultramarines, and you can blame Matt Ward for a lot of it. This is what happens when you let a Fanboi develop a codex, as opposed to someone who is merely enthusiastic about the army.

And that's the thing. The Codex itself doesn't crap on about "Spiritual Liege" and how "Everyone wants to be an Ultramarine!" (at least, it didn't when I read it - I may have missed the section) it's just Matt "C.S. Goto" Ward and his constant brainfarting that's caused the current crop of anti-Ultramarine Internet Hyperbole.

Page 24 of C:SM does exactly that.

The Ultramarines had it a bit bad before the current book, for a variety of reasons, but it skyrocketed after GW allowed Matt Ward to write Codex: Space Marines for 5th edition.

Well it says 'distant' liege, and certainly nothing about them secretly (or opening) wanting to be Ultramarines. More aspiring to the history of their founding Legion.

It certainly would read to most people that the other chapters desire to be Ultramarines, especially with phrases like "They can never be Ultramarines". That pretty much reads only one way to most people, implying a desire to *be* Ultramarines.

It doesn't help of course that the author then explicitly states in WD that the Ultras are *of course* the best of the best and everyone wants to be them. In the codex it may not state it quite so bluntly or point blank, but it's not exactly super subtle either about it.

Vaktathi wrote:It certainly would read to most people that the other chapters desire to be Ultramarines, especially with phrases like "They can never be Ultramarines". That pretty much reads only one way to most people, implying a desire to *be* Ultramarines.

It doesn't help of course that the author then explicitly states in WD that the Ultras are *of course* the best of the best and everyone wants to be them. In the codex it may not state it quite so bluntly or point blank, but it's not exactly super subtle either about it.

i find it funny how there are statements like "They can never be Ultramarines" in a book that later says: "They are the undisputed masters of such tactics" of the Hawk Lords, or "The Raven Guard are the masters of the unseen war", or "White Scars are the masters of Reconnaissance and adherents...."

with the particular phrase "the masters" or "undisputed masters" they contradict their own statements, i mean if I am part of a chapter that is an undisputed master, why would i want to be something else??

I think it really is the matter of one amongst a group of equals suddenly claiming to be the best. That annoys people, even those people who are fine with being equal, and much more so those people who want to be best themselves.

In 2nd ed. Codex Imperialis there was a small textbox about each of the four main chapters - except for the ultramarines. There was nothing special about ultramarines back then, and they have not managed to give that chapter more character in those twenty years, at least not much. The romanesque style is a good start, but nowhere near strong enough - compare it to the depth to which the renaissance element of blood angels, the medieval monk element of dark angels, or the viking element of space wolves have been developed. The only thing the ultras have been given is "being the best". They have the best librarian, the best chaplain, the best tank commander, the best scout sergeant. That is just bland, and it breaks the suspension of disbelief in anyone older than 5. The ultramarines are the mary sue of 40k. They can do everything, have no flaws, are best and they have no actual characteristics. McNeill's Ventris is a perfect example of this. His supposed flaw is being less dogmatic than the average ultramarine and thereby being able to do more good. Oh, what a harsh flaw to deal with. The poor chap.

The Codex Imperialis textbox about the Space Wolves actually says "They are the first" - and since they are legion number six, that meant their ability. However, that bit of fluff could be read as some quote from a person in the 40k universe - which makes it a lot less offensive to players of other chapters or armies, because it allows for being read as an opinion, which makes it possible for others to have differing opinions - for example that their chapter is the best. This is what GW often do with armies and factions, to make them look cool without being definite about them being the best - being definite about that would disallow all other armies and factions to be cool. But the current SM codex text about ultras is doing exactly that: descriptive and factual, not allowing for other opinions, and therefore, offensive to anyone not playing ultramarines.

Imagine you want to play SMs, but do not like the blue colour scheme. You are automatically damned to play a chapter that is not as good. Me? I'm annoyed.



Now, all that being said, I actually like their colour scheme, and I really dig the whole roman flavour - I majored in roman history, and I would really, really like fielding a "roman legion" style SM army, especially since the whole HH fluff took quite some inspiration from that ancient culture. But it simply is not done far enough. For me, the Ultras could be cool if they could just be given more of that hint of character they have now, if they could be developed more in-depth. But this is not possible, because they could then not be the vanilla marines anymore.

Saying those things have been developed is being rather charitable. DAs are now just covered in feathers, SWs even MORE wolf pelts, BAs blood drops and wings everywhere, etc. But I see where you are coming from.

Vaktathi wrote:This White Dwarf article more than explains why people hate the Ultramarines, and you can blame Matt Ward for a lot of it. This is what happens when you let a Fanboi develop a codex, as opposed to someone who is merely enthusiastic about the army.

Wow, what a jerk.

Sure, not everything that has gone into strengthening those aspects will be liked by everyone - thunderwolves, for example, are just ridiculous in my eyes - and yeah, some of the symbols are overused, but I do mean the background, too. With space wolves that has always been strong, but the DA and BA backgrounds had only been hinted at in 2nd ed and have now been fully developed.

UM background was nonexistent in 2nd ed and nowadays there's a roman name here and a few lightning bolts and eagles there, and that's it. It remains bland, and that is sad, because it could be much more.

Oh and I just read that article for the first time. Wow indeed. "The Ultramarines are undoubtedly the best Space Marines ever. Yes, really!" Oh my gawd.

I disklike them because, like so many posters have already mentioned, GW has made them the face of the Space Marines. I feel their are other Chapters equal in nobility to the Ultramarines who deserve a share of the spotlight. I also dislike their fluff and their special characters (or lack of). Finally, I dislike that they basically police other Chapters with they guidelines.

But have you accepted Robute Guilliman as your spiritual liege yet Skylifter?

If you don't, Ultramarines will turn up at your door asking if you have heard the good news in their Codex Astartes book.

And then beat you with it until you do.

Tim the Biovore wrote:

Vaktathi wrote:This White Dwarf article more than explains why people hate the Ultramarines, and you can blame Matt Ward for a lot of it. This is what happens when you let a Fanboi develop a codex, as opposed to someone who is merely enthusiastic about the army.

Wow, what a jerk.

Wow, what an understatement.

Element206 wrote:I disklike them because, like so many posters have already mentioned, GW has made them the face of the Space Marines. I feel their are other Chapters equal in nobility to the Ultramarines who deserve a share of the spotlight.

Salamanders! If anything Salamanders are more noble than Ultramarines, according to the little background snippets I've read about them. They're not obvious glory hogs and actually seem to give a damn about the task they were charged with. In case anyone has any doubt.

I still wish Salamanders could get a bits/upgrade sprue like Dark Angels and Space Wolves. I'd probably start a new army if they did. I tried sculpting little details myself, but I'm clearly not cut out for it...some thunder hammers and meltas/flamers with the dragon motif (and shoulder pads obviously) would be greatly appreciated. At the moment all they have to offer are terminator pads...yay...

Nurglitch wrote:Isn't this a gaming discussion board? Where else can we worry about such trivialities? There's a time and a place, and Dakka Dakka is the place.

Reread my reply/post. The discussion was about game stores not this forum. You can discuss anything you want here. And as I stated: taking stock in what a bunch of geeks at a game store think about much of anything is indeed usually waste of time.

Bottom line inthis discussion: paint your models how you want and IF the crowd at said store is annoying/unfullfilling then I would search for a new place to play or start a private club.
Life is too short to purposely spend time with morons...

I have about 2 companies of them, but I can relate why people don't like them very much, of course I'm still waiting for the Soul Drinkers and the Blood Ravins to become bonifide chapters with some serious releases.

I really don't know why GW came up with the idea that generic Blue marines would be even taken seriously, much less that they give them so much with such little thought. I know it's just a color, but the way that GW itself portrays them really just turns the chapter into some sort of bad joke.

Examples include each and every new tank, troop type, or character and any other thing you can think of. Theres always shots and shots of Ultramarines clogging up GW's material that you would think that they are all that there are, and there are no other chapters.

And a caviot off of the fanboy codex, there really isn't any farther you need to go when the game pretty much devolves into the idea that generic space marines for the win are a good thing, nevermind that they didn't really take into account that the material already written pretty much cuts its own throat.

Some of the things seen would have you believe that the chapter wasn't even really the "Ultramarines." There is only so much someone can take in the first place when you pull some sort of superhero out of left field, but when you continue to do it, it just gets old, and really doesn't lend itself to endearment.
My example being-
They already had some great books out about the die hard fights that Ventris and Calgar had. Then for some odd reason, GW sees fit to pull the second companies captain and a bunch of newb characters that we are supposed to throw hard earned coin at, for the only reason of them being "ULTRA-ULTRAMARINES", even going as far as to throw up gold on thier 2nd company armor out of left field like we need yet another cool kid.

The material doesn't need reinvention each and every month, it just needs continuity.

Atma01 wrote:Yeah that sounds about right. Maybe 10. It would have been sometime around '94. From memory there were also more than a few boxes that used BAs/DAs on the cover. And the existence of other Chapters was made much more apparent on those boxes compared to now. You just flipped it over and there were all these alternatives. Now you are lucky to see maybe 2 other non-Ultra Chapters in the minuscule pictures on the sides of the boxes.

All GWs used to have a heap of introductory booklet things on the counter. They would describe basic painting and modelling and had a little bit of this and that and a couple of adverts (naturally). For some time the back page had a range of different space marine chapters represented by a painted miniature, must have been about 20-25 individual marines each painted differently and labelled accordingly. When you didn't have the internet that was one of the best places to see a load of marines actually painted in different chapter colours. My favourites for a long time were Mentor Legion.

Grot 6 wrote:I have about 2 companies of them, but I can relate why people don't like them very much, of course I'm still waiting for the Soul Drinkers and the Blood Ravins to become bonifide chapters with some serious releases.

I really don't know why GW came up with the idea that generic Blue marines would be even taken seriously, much less that they give them so much with such little thought. I know it's just a color, but the way that GW itself portrays them really just turns the chapter into some sort of bad joke.

Examples include each and every new tank, troop type, or character and any other thing you can think of. Theres always shots and shots of Ultramarines clogging up GW's material that you would think that they are all that there are, and there are no other chapters.

And a caviot off of the fanboy codex, there really isn't any farther you need to go when the game pretty much devolves into the idea that generic space marines for the win are a good thing, nevermind that they didn't really take into account that the material already written pretty much cuts its own throat.

Some of the things seen would have you believe that the chapter wasn't even really the "Ultramarines." There is only so much someone can take in the first place when you pull some sort of superhero out of left field, but when you continue to do it, it just gets old, and really doesn't lend itself to endearment.
My example being-
They already had some great books out about the die hard fights that Ventris and Calgar had. Then for some odd reason, GW sees fit to pull the second companies captain and a bunch of newb characters that we are supposed to throw hard earned coin at, for the only reason of them being "ULTRA-ULTRAMARINES", even going as far as to throw up gold on thier 2nd company armor out of left field like we need yet another cool kid.

The material doesn't need reinvention each and every month, it just needs continuity.

While you may or may not be right in your asessment it is all irrelevant. Even if you are 100% right it doesn't give anyone the right to be a TFG assclown, which is what this thread is about.

IF you (in the generic sense) don't like Ultramarines then don't buy/play/paint them.

But to carry on about them as if it makes any actual difference in your life is moronic. It is a game of toy soldiers.

Running around a game store declaring things "gay" to prove your nerd-superiority?!? Really? Get a f*ucking life...

As people have said it's because the Ultramarines are crammed down our throat and quite frankly alot people get fed up seeing/hearing "Ultramarines this...Ultramarines that..."

A good example of how over used they are IMO is in the new Ultramarines film and the up and coming game Space Marine, I was not the least bit shocked Ultramarines where chosen. In the Ultramarines film they made the the Imperial Fists look crap. I don't want to go into it too much in case it spoils it for people who have not yet seen it.

I think it would be nice and fair if GW chose a chapter each year and released some stuff for it. I wouldn't collect Ultramarines because I would feel like a sheep following the heard (same with the BA's at the moment). However I wouldn't condone anyone for collecting them, my friend collects Ultramarinesm and always has. I always gently rib him about it, but he ribs me about my army. A bit of friendly banter is healthy

CT GAMER wrote:

Grot 6 wrote:I have about 2 companies of them, but I can relate why people don't like them very much, of course I'm still waiting for the Soul Drinkers and the Blood Ravins to become bonifide chapters with some serious releases.

I really don't know why GW came up with the idea that generic Blue marines would be even taken seriously, much less that they give them so much with such little thought. I know it's just a color, but the way that GW itself portrays them really just turns the chapter into some sort of bad joke.

Examples include each and every new tank, troop type, or character and any other thing you can think of. Theres always shots and shots of Ultramarines clogging up GW's material that you would think that they are all that there are, and there are no other chapters.

And a caviot off of the fanboy codex, there really isn't any farther you need to go when the game pretty much devolves into the idea that generic space marines for the win are a good thing, nevermind that they didn't really take into account that the material already written pretty much cuts its own throat.

Some of the things seen would have you believe that the chapter wasn't even really the "Ultramarines." There is only so much someone can take in the first place when you pull some sort of superhero out of left field, but when you continue to do it, it just gets old, and really doesn't lend itself to endearment.
My example being-
They already had some great books out about the die hard fights that Ventris and Calgar had. Then for some odd reason, GW sees fit to pull the second companies captain and a bunch of newb characters that we are supposed to throw hard earned coin at, for the only reason of them being "ULTRA-ULTRAMARINES", even going as far as to throw up gold on thier 2nd company armor out of left field like we need yet another cool kid.

The material doesn't need reinvention each and every month, it just needs continuity.

While you may or may not be right in your asessment it is all irrelevant. Even if you are 100% right it doesn't give anyone the right to be a TFG assclown, which is what this thread is about.

IF you (in the generic sense) don't like Ultramarines then don't buy/play/paint them.

But to carry on about them as if it makes any actual difference in your life is moronic. It is a game of toy soldiers.

Running around a game store declaring things "gay" to prove your nerd-superiority?!? Really? Get a f*ucking life...

As you can see here:

theamericanos wrote:No further explination just that they suck. And everybody was agreeing, even the freakin tau player, which says alot. Why are they hated

..the OP asked why they were hated. People answered that. I myself described at length what I dislike about them. And the reason I find this question interesting is that I wish there were less things I dislike about them, and more I like, because at the core, I do like them a lot, and would love for them to be portrayed in a more interesting way in the codex.

I do agree that simply saying "they suck" is moronic. However, discussing what, in our opinions, is wrong with them is not.

Overexposure is a pretty bad problem, but if someone tells you what to run, ignore them.

I enjoy the background of the Ultramarines because Ultramar is what the Imperium could be. Most of it still hasn't recovered from the Horus Heresy and the chapters involved in the defense of Terra were battered pretty badly. I would love to see more little codexes (like the old Catachan codex) for some of the first founding chapters like the Salamanders or White Scars.

never really got the whole gotta hate the smurfs thing.I like space marines ultramarines were the first thing that really caught my eye when i first visited a gw store.I can see that they are over exposed somewhat ie pretty much on every box but ive never really had a problem changing marking etc.

Skylifter wrote:UM background was nonexistent in 2nd ed...

There was a "Codex: Ultramarines" in 2nd Ed. So no it wasn't.

You have to remember that a lot changed between 1st and 2nd Ed. There was quite a bit of Ultramarines fluff in 1st Ed, but it was contradictory for the more solidified storyline that 40K received once they moved to 2nd Ed. To start with the Ultra-Marines (as they were called) were not a 1st Founding Legion, and they had weird things like a half-Human/half-Eldar Librarian. When the transition was made there was little Ultramarine fluff because it needed to be rewritten from the ground up into something that fit with the more logical background they were going for with 2nd Ed. That's why there isn't anything in Codex Imperialis about them and we only get a few pictures of them in various areas.

Skylifter wrote:...nowadays there's a roman name here and a few lightning bolts and eagles there, and that's it.

Except that's not it. There are now reams and reams of background material, and it's a hell of a lot more than a few names and symbols. And that's aside from getting an entire Ultramarines Codex as the... fourth (I think... Wolves, Eldar, Orks then Ultras I believe) Codex release in 2nd Ed.

Mighty Simo wrote:A good example of how over used they are IMO is in the new Ultramarines film and the up and coming game Space Marine, I was not the least bit shocked Ultramarines where chosen.

Do you people not get it yet?

GW is presenting a consistent brand image for 40k. It is far easier to unify a range of products when you tie them to a single type of image. If each box of Marines had a different Chapter on it, new players would be confused. The fact that their first commercially released feature length (almost!) movie ties into this brand image is hardly surprising.

Ultramarines are awesome OP, play them.

Exhibit A: Chaos Gate computer game

H.B.M.C. wrote:

Skylifter wrote:UM background was nonexistent in 2nd ed...

There was a "Codex: Ultramarines" in 2nd Ed. So no it wasn't.

You have to remember that a lot changed between 1st and 2nd Ed. There was quite a bit of Ultramarines fluff in 1st Ed, but it was contradictory for the more solidified storyline that 40K received once they moved to 2nd Ed. To start with the Ultra-Marines (as they were called) were not a 1st Founding Legion, and they had weird things like a half-Human/half-Eldar Librarian. When the transition was made there was little Ultramarine fluff because it needed to be rewritten from the ground up into something that fit with the more logical background they were going for with 2nd Ed. That's why there isn't anything in Codex Imperialis about them and we only get a few pictures of them in various areas.

Skylifter wrote:...nowadays there's a roman name here and a few lightning bolts and eagles there, and that's it.

Except that's not it. There are now reams and reams of background material, and it's a hell of a lot more than a few names and symbols. And that's aside from getting an entire Ultramarines Codex as the... fourth (I think... Wolves, Eldar, Orks then Ultras I believe) Codex release in 2nd Ed.

Right, I was referring to the first year, in which there was no UM fluff yet. But yes, they do now have lots of material, but not in their codex. SW, DA, BA - their special flavour is immediately apparent from their codices. The UM flavour the SM codex leaves in my mouth is "roman-based mary sue". No more, no less. And that is what I dislike.

I understand why GW are doing that, and I would do exactly the same in their position, but I nonetheless find that sad, because UMs could be so much cooler if they were less bland and less best, but more 'themselves', so to speak.

And please don't misunderstand me: I don't think UMs a boring, lame or whatever people said to the OP. I think they are great, only one would have to do more work oneself to bring out what's great in them as compared to other chapters, for which all that has already been done by GW.

In a nutshell its nerd-rage gone wild. Buy the movie! See sexy Astartes reveal it all. Only $39.98! Call now and get the limited edition graphic novel packed with untainted, virgin combat brothers... Operators are standing by!

oni wrote:In a nutshell its nerd-rage gone wild. Buy the movie! See sexy Astartes reveal it all. Only $39.98! Call now and get the limited edition graphic novel packed with untainted, virgin combat brothers... Operators are standing by!

Go on...

I find the Space Marines in general get hyped up into something they are not. In the fluff they are painted as almost god like. A single marine able to face down entire squads of lesser warriors. When on the table top this is not the case.

poontangler wrote:I find the Space Marines in general get hyped up into something they are not. In the fluff they are painted as almost god like. A single marine able to face down entire squads of lesser warriors. When on the table top this is not the case.

the only reason i have such a hate for tau is that my army is a dark eldar army consisting of a huge core of wyches mounted on raiders with a few talos to absorb incoming fire. The tau player on the other hand has a manta which is created by forge world and has the following weapon system. 16 long barreled burst cannons, 6 long barreled ion cannons, two heavy rail guns, missle pods with many seeker missles, including a networked markerlight turret. I think its safe to say that my army is pretty much useless

We know what the manta is.

And that's easy to deal with: just say no. You don't have to fight against a manta if you don't want to. Hell, I'm not sure how you could in anything other than Apocalypse, the thing costs at least 3000 points by itself.

In any case I think it goes without saying that it's wrong to damn an entire army because of one expensive, optional model that most people buy just for show anyway, as actually using it in games is too impractical and pointless.

Lol, Yea you don't have to fight the Manta. I think the Dark Eldar can murder anything in front of them.

poontangler wrote:I find the Space Marines in general get hyped up into something they are not. In the fluff they are painted as almost god like. A single marine able to face down entire squads of lesser warriors. When on the table top this is not the case.

As has been stated in a number of sources, if Space Marines worked in game as they are meant to in the background, the game would be biased even more in their favour than it is now.

The "Movie Marines" article was a good example of this. The comparative statistic difference between a human and a Space Marine in Inquisitor was an even better example.

I've heard that the same is the case in the Dark Heresy/Rogue Trader/Deathwatch trilogy of games, but I've not played them enough to be sure.

I've never seen a Manta fielded, even in pictures online. There can't be that many of this near enough £1000 model around.

Honestly I have no hate for the Space Marines. Some of the writings around them are annoying. I find they have a lot of bombastic phrases used to further hype them up. I also find that the new players who pick them up often reflect this(not everybody is the same)

Personally I love fighting them. The victory is that much sweeter, especially when your opponent is baffled about why he just lost. I mean he did field the space marines after all.

littleboyblues wrote:Ultramarines aren't 'gay'.

I have to disagree, I think with their Greco-Roman fluff, bonds of brotherhood, and life without women it has always been heavily implied that the Ultras (and marines in general) practice homosexuality. I mean really 'ejaculating bolters' boarding torpedos shot up Tyranid spinchers, it's there if you look.

Aren't Space Marines eunuchs?

H.B.M.C. wrote:
There was a "Codex: Ultramarines" in 2nd Ed. So no it wasn't.

You have to remember that a lot changed between 1st and 2nd Ed. There was quite a bit of Ultramarines fluff in 1st Ed, but it was contradictory for the more solidified storyline that 40K received once they moved to 2nd Ed. To start with the Ultra-Marines (as they were called) were not a 1st Founding Legion, and they had weird things like a half-Human/half-Eldar Librarian. When the transition was made there was little Ultramarine fluff because it needed to be rewritten from the ground up into something that fit with the more logical background they were going for with 2nd Ed. That's why there isn't anything in Codex Imperialis about them and we only get a few pictures of them in various areas.

Far be it for me to correct the Half Brother of Marneus Calgar but that's not quite right.

In Rogue Trader days the UMs were a 3rd Founding legion yes, but they replaced the original UMs who turned to chaos.

They also lived on a Dune-like desert world complete with sand worms. I like to think the current fluff is all propeganda made up to hide their shameful origins, their crippled Chapter Master and Tigurius' half-breed origins.

Would you like to know more?
http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/207705.page





Automatically Appended Next Post:

poontangler wrote:Aren't Space Marines eunuchs?

Not confirmed in any fluff I've seen, I think it's an example of fan-denial.

I am obviously an Ultramarine player, but I haven't always been one. See I used to play orks and after getting my butt handed to me quite a few times by power armored baddasses, I decided to find out what the fuss was all about. I got a SM codex, read a few black library novels, and started an army. Needless to say, after about 1500 pts. of blue and gold goodness later, my orks haven't seen the light of day in about a year. I could go on and on why the boys in blue are #1, but I think I'll let my sig answer that one for me.

cool

Like that Sig

Wouldn't Space Marines doing anything with what they have down their be falling to Slaanesh?

And seriously, we (the internets) just use the Ultras as a scape goat of most things that people find annoying with GW. I'd gladly play you, Tigerius is my favorite special HQ, even though he's overpriced/too squishy.

Ultramarines fluff is just stupid ridiculous in comparison to other chapters.
My favorite example is how ultramarine honor guards supposedly have more kills/commendations than companies of other chapters.
Another good one is Macragge. It's a good story, 1 company of UM plus some PDF fight off a crap ton of tyranids. However, then you compare this against fluff that the other chapters get, such as 1000 Iron Warriors and 500 defilers defending their planet made entirely of fortresses being defeated by a foe much like that which 100 ultramarines took down. It's just uhg.

sub-zero wrote:
Ultramarines are actually pretty awesome. Other chapters have goofy tactics, or grimdork curses or whatever to win them the battle, all the Ultras have is iron will and rock hard soldiery. They have no Death Company, or Terminator Wing, just suits of ceramite and hearts of steel. When the Imperium needs someone to count on, when they have to know that their super-soldiers that all those resources and time go in to making will actually show up, who do they call? The Ultramarines. When they need someone to kick down doors and gun down a small army with a dozen men and a tank, who do they yell for? Ultramarines. When you look at an Imperium riven with strife and internal conflict, where do you find peace, prosperity, and martial strength, even among the un-augmented? Ultramar.

So you might not like the boys in blue, but that's okay, because they're going to hold the line anyway. They're Ultramarines, Sons of Guilliman, that's what they do. brother chaplain darius

The only "other chapters" who have any extras are Blood Angels, Space Wolves, Black Templars and Dark Angels. And the latter two also have actual (ruleswise) drawbacks for their advantages. All other "other chapters" have exactly the same choices as Ultramarines. So why again are Ultramarines better than, for example, Raptors? Or Imperial Fists? Or Fire Angels? Or [insert any chapter using C:SM]?

ph34r wrote:Ultramarines fluff is just stupid ridiculous in comparison to other chapters.
My favorite example is how ultramarine honor guards supposedly have more kills/commendations than companies of other chapters.
Another good one is Macragge. It's a good story, 1 company of UM plus some PDF fight off a crap ton of tyranids. However, then you compare this against fluff that the other chapters get, such as 1000 Iron Warriors and 500 defilers defending their planet made entirely of fortresses being defeated by a foe much like that which 100 ultramarines took down. It's just uhg.

I agree. It does not make sense. The bit where Telion is sent to other chapters to teach their scouts is what I always felt was the most stupid one.

But the thing that makes all of this so annoying is that no reason is given. It is like a kid stating "mine is bestest!!!111eleven11!" and then nothing. If they came up with some believable reasoning why ultramarines are supposedly best at everything, then it might just be less annoying, or even enjoyable, and I'd start playing UMs. Yay! I doubt there can be a believable reason, though.

Skylifter wrote:
But the thing that makes all of this so annoying is that no reason is given. It is like a kid stating "mine is bestest!!!111eleven11!" and then nothing. If they came up with some believable reasoning why ultramarines are supposedly best at everything, then it might just be less annoying, or even enjoyable, and I'd start playing UMs. Yay! I doubt there can be a believable reason, though.

the "real" problem stems, imo, from written fluff that basically says that the UMs wrote the Codex taking the best of all tactics used my all Legions, compiled them into one "textbook" to serve as a shining example to all military organizations throughout the imperium. what its turned in to though, is a "We wrote this, we are telling you that we're the best, and this book proves it, now READ IT!!!! and follow whatever it tells you to" sort of situation.


One thing i would probably be OK with gw doing in a future codex, is saying that the UMs are the "best" all-round marine army, thereby leaving room for the other chapters to be "Absolute Masters" of various forms and tactics of war. As it stands right now, the current codex is abit daft in its portrayal of other chapters compared with UMs.

I don't mind them. In fact i quite like their colour scheme. What(Who) i don't like is Cato Sicarius. I think he's a massive tool.

CT GAMER wrote:

Grot 6 wrote:I have about 2 companies of them, but I can relate why people don't like them very much, of course I'm still waiting for the Soul Drinkers and the Blood Ravins to become bonifide chapters with some serious releases.

I really don't know why GW came up with the idea that generic Blue marines would be even taken seriously, much less that they give them so much with such little thought. I know it's just a color, but the way that GW itself portrays them really just turns the chapter into some sort of bad joke.

Examples include each and every new tank, troop type, or character and any other thing you can think of. Theres always shots and shots of Ultramarines clogging up GW's material that you would think that they are all that there are, and there are no other chapters.

And a caviot off of the fanboy codex, there really isn't any farther you need to go when the game pretty much devolves into the idea that generic space marines for the win are a good thing, nevermind that they didn't really take into account that the material already written pretty much cuts its own throat.

Some of the things seen would have you believe that the chapter wasn't even really the "Ultramarines." There is only so much someone can take in the first place when you pull some sort of superhero out of left field, but when you continue to do it, it just gets old, and really doesn't lend itself to endearment.
My example being-
They already had some great books out about the die hard fights that Ventris and Calgar had. Then for some odd reason, GW sees fit to pull the second companies captain and a bunch of newb characters that we are supposed to throw hard earned coin at, for the only reason of them being "ULTRA-ULTRAMARINES", even going as far as to throw up gold on thier 2nd company armor out of left field like we need yet another cool kid.

The material doesn't need reinvention each and every month, it just needs continuity.

While you may or may not be right in your asessment it is all irrelevant. Even if you are 100% right it doesn't give anyone the right to be a TFG assclown, which is what this thread is about.

IF you (in the generic sense) don't like Ultramarines then don't buy/play/paint them.

But to carry on about them as if it makes any actual difference in your life is moronic. It is a game of toy soldiers.

Running around a game store declaring things "gay" to prove your nerd-superiority?!? Really? Get a f*ucking life...

Irrelevent? What are you talking about here?

The point about the Ultramarines being ... not liked very well... is the point of the thread. If people want to be assclowns, thats on them, Me? I think you might have missed the first sentence where I just said that I had two companies of them.

My assessment is on the money, and pretty much the majority of the opinion of most here. That Ultramarines are over exposed and that GW pushes them harder and uses them as the posterboy army for 40K...

Are you so PC that you don't bust balls in your local game store, and have all of the insider laughs at some or the other armies expense? Heck, EVERYONE who plays has a good gib ever now and then and has TFG moments, thats some of whats fun about gaming. I don't have a personal issue with them, I just think the same thing that I already, and pretty much everyone else is saying. I think they are a good baseline army that someone just out of the starting gate can pick up and play a scratch game without sitting on the fence and watching everyone else play, but as a whole though, Ultramarines are over hyped, overly lauded, and needlessly pitched to newb players, ( Newb as in New walking right into a store and saying something like "Hey whats this stuff about...")

Nurglitch wrote:

oni wrote:In a nutshell its nerd-rage gone wild. Buy the movie! See sexy Astartes reveal it all. Only $39.98! Call now and get the limited edition graphic novel packed with untainted, virgin combat brothers... Operators are standing by!

Go on...

Made my day

Mighty Simo wrote:As people have said it's because the Ultramarines are crammed down our throat and quite frankly alot people get fed up seeing/hearing "Ultramarines this...Ultramarines that..."

Maybe take a break from the game if toy soldiers get you this worked up?

Go outside, get some exercise? Deep breathing also helps...

Kid_Kyoto wrote:

littleboyblues wrote:Ultramarines aren't 'gay'.

I have to disagree, I think with their Greco-Roman fluff, bonds of brotherhood, and life without women it has always been heavily implied that the Ultras (and marines in general) practice homosexuality. I mean really 'ejaculating bolters' boarding torpedos shot up Tyranid spinchers, it's there if you look.

Will you accept the hot, hot geneseed?

I love Ultramarines. The sound they make when they crush like soda cans under AP3 large blasts is somewhat nicer than most other Chapters. I think it's all the extra bling.

Seriously though, the reason why I don't care for them is the same reason why I dislike Superman.

Superman:
- No perceived weakness (okay, Kryptonite, but how many times does that actually stop him?)
- No internal strife or moral dilemma. (Good is so easy. Why aren't YOU this good?)
- Any time he runs into a problem he can't solve, he gains a new power, and one that COMPLETELY destroys any sense of immersion. (Okay, he flies around because he's from a low gravity planet or some silliness. Fine. Wait, he's reversing time by spinning the planet backwards...WAT?)
- Gets in fights with Batman.
- Doesn't actually DO anything (this is subject of some argument. As I recall, he basically doesn't do anything of major use in stopping the majority of the villains he deals with. At least not on a permanent basis. Luthor is still out in the wild at the end of the day, it takes his daughter along with The Atom to do anything about Mastermind. He only stops Doomsday AFTER Doomsday kills him. Oh, but Superman can't die cause it's doubleplus good!)

Ultramarines:

- No perceived weakness. We are the ultramureens and we're doubleplus good, 'cause I said so.
- No internal strife or moral dilemma.
- Anytime they run into a problem they can't solve, they gain a new weapon or something. Hellfire rounds anyone?
- Gets in fights with Batman. Well, okay, maybe not this one.
- Doesn't actually DO anything. When was the last time they did something that wasn't on Macragge? Oh, they wrote a book... I like books, but you're the warrior-priests of the far future. Little more warrioring and a little less priesting, please.

So I can't right out say I hate them, because honestly, they're not really exciting enough one way or another to even be evocative of hate, let alone any other emotion.

Really Ultramarines are like the paper coffee cup sitting on my desk: It serves a purpose and is fully functional, but it's just something to cast aside and forget about at the end of the day.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

SumYungGui wrote:
Will you accept the hot, hot geneseed?

Oh, and this is gross.

One of the reason I dislike Ultramarines in the first place was due to the fact that at my FLGS every space marine player plays Ultramarines. One even used a Proxy Ultramarine army with no special characters (how does that even work? Note that the guy painted up his marines red and black, but specifically said they were proxying for ultramarines. Not a successor chapter, not anything else, just proxying AS Ultramarines). During campaigns it wasnt "Good vs evil" it was "Ultramarine VS everything else", simply because the "evil" forces got outnumbered by the Ultras so much, they had to pull every other faction into the evil side just to make it slightly less handicapped.

daedalus wrote:I love Ultramarines. The sound they make when they crush like soda cans under AP3 large blasts is somewhat nicer than most other Chapters. I think it's all the extra bling.

Seriously though, the reason why I don't care for them is the same reason why I dislike Superman.

Superman:
- No perceived weakness (okay, Kryptonite, but how many times does that actually stop him?)
- No internal strife or moral dilemma. (Good is so easy. Why aren't YOU this good?)
- Any time he runs into a problem he can't solve, he gains a new power, and one that COMPLETELY destroys any sense of immersion. (Okay, he flies around because he's from a low gravity planet or some silliness. Fine. Wait, he's reversing time by spinning the planet backwards...WAT?)
- Gets in fights with Batman.
- Doesn't actually DO anything (this is subject of some argument. As I recall, he basically doesn't do anything of major use in stopping the majority of the villains he deals with. At least not on a permanent basis. Luthor is still out in the wild at the end of the day, it takes his daughter along with The Atom to do anything about Mastermind. He only stops Doomsday AFTER Doomsday kills him. Oh, but Superman can't die cause it's doubleplus good!)

Ultramarines:

- No perceived weakness. We are the ultramureens and we're doubleplus good, 'cause I said so.
- No internal strife or moral dilemma.
- Anytime they run into a problem they can't solve, they gain a new weapon or something. Hellfire rounds anyone?
- Gets in fights with Batman. Well, okay, maybe not this one.
- Doesn't actually DO anything. When was the last time they did something that wasn't on Macragge? Oh, they wrote a book... I like books, but you're the warrior-priests of the far future. Little more warrioring and a little less priesting, please.

So I can't right out say I hate them, because honestly, they're not really exciting enough one way or another to even be evocative of hate, let alone any other emotion.

Really Ultramarines are like the paper coffee cup sitting on my desk: It serves a purpose and is fully functional, but it's just something to cast aside and forget about at the end of the day.

If you compare Ultramarines and Superman does that mean Batman is better than the Ultramarines?

Batman is a grouchy McGrouchypants that needs to get laid more often.

To Americano or whatever the original poster's name was:

You paint your army however you want. If that color scheme makes you excited to paint your miniatures, then do it. On a side note, how many of their armies are actually painted and not grey or primer?

The Irony of the writings that the Ultramarines are the absolute best is that the army is a jack of all trades, master of none force.

space marines are Eunuchs.

They also need more cowbell.

CT GAMER wrote:

Mighty Simo wrote:As people have said it's because the Ultramarines are crammed down our throat and quite frankly alot people get fed up seeing/hearing "Ultramarines this...Ultramarines that..."

Maybe take a break from the game if toy soldiers get you this worked up?

Go outside, get some exercise? Deep breathing also helps...

Jeez, take your own advice, will you? We're just trying to have a friendly discussion here, and you come in all like "GOD YOU GUYS ARE DICKS STFU!"

I happen to think this thread has gone pretty well so far, the OP got a reasonable answer to his question and no one but you has really had any problem with it.

purplefood wrote:
If you compare Ultramarines and Superman does that mean Batman is better than the Ultramarines?

Well, given how similar I find Ultramarines to Superman, I'd say that Batman would build a giant suit made of Tyranids powered off the city's electrical grid and beat the Ultramarines into oblivion.

And yes, yes he is.

theamericanos wrote:...Why are they hated

Have you seen thier new movie, oh wow.

Just kidding, they are awesome, dont listen to nay sayers, tell you this, no matter how many times the rules get changed, you are sure to be fine with this as your army!

SumYungGui wrote:

I have to disagree, I think with bonds of brotherhood...and life without women.

Sounds like Dakka ...

Ultras are hated because they are proud, semi-arrogant, their world is nice (vs caliban*, nocturne baal or icy-puppy land), they are the default and there is an implied 'noob'ness about painting your army the default colour. They have a disproportionate amount of rules, characters and fluff (not so due to BA/SW as much though)

Also UM aren't the 'source' of all other chapters... there are lots of other first foundings... BA, SW, Sallies, Dark Angels ... I'm surprised the Sallies haven't gotten much love at all... but I hope that that will change soon


*as in not-exploded

Phototoxin wrote:Ultras are hated because they are proud, semi-arrogant, their world is nice (vs caliban*, nocturne baal or icy-puppy land)

How come that it's always the poor Templar who get left out when someone mentions the Chapters with their own dexes? Anyhow, the sparkly marines, wolfrines and the supersecret marines should be glad that they at least have a homeworld, unlike the apegak marines, who has to fly around in the cold, dark space to find someone to steal lunch money from!

ive made a unanimus decision with myself to create a red scorpion army. Its going to be fun!!!

I always hated them because the dopes always paint the 'U' for 'Ultramarine' on their shoulders upside down. You'd think someone would have noticed this chapter-wide dyslexia.

Basically, the Ultramarines are the bomb. Their Primarch took over where the Emperor left off. Their little section of space is relatively safe and well maintained. There isn't anything wrong with their color scheme (although I agree that people will tend to see blue power armor and assume "noob," but I think they'll change their minds of the work is 1/2 decent).

They aren't the most powerful Marine Codex (how many forum posts do you see calling SW or BA cheesy? And how many do you see calling plain-jane vanilla marines cheesy? Exactly). They don't have the sweetest characters. But They are exemplars of doing things the right way. For that, every UM from Guilliman on down to Calgar should be commended.

On the other hand...I'd rather play a DIY chapter that I can switch back and forth between BA and UM or Crimson Fists, so the fact that I have a bunch of otherwise sweet metal figures sitting around with great big omegas on their shoulders is just a bit of a bummer.

Oh yay, it's time for this thread again. Has it really been a week already?

Anyway, Ultramarines are generally disliked because they are the vanilla space marine chapter, because they are mary sue goody-two-shoes, because their primarch is a pompous douchebag, and because Matt Ward was probably autoerotically asphyxiating himself while writing their fluff.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Howard A Treesong wrote:I don't really like this thing about equating being "gay" with something negative, it really grates and is something I notice is mostly used by the younger generations. So my first reaction would be to point out that isn't appropriate regardless of the point being made. Frankly it makes me disinclined to listen to anything they say until they start speaking properly.

Meh, "gay" has changed meaning before, and it's somewhat in the process of changing again.

If people hate ultras due to over exposure then why aren't Cadians, Biel tan Eldar, T'au sept or any of the other studio armies hated? is there something unique to ultras that earns them this hate?

EmilCrane wrote:If people hate ultras due to over exposure then why aren't Cadians, Biel tan Eldar, T'au sept or any of the other studio armies hated? is there something unique to ultras that earns them this hate?

The fact that they're everywhere all the time? Sure, Cadians, and T'au are relatively overexposed, but not anywhere close to the extent of the Ultramarines. And the Cadians and the T'au sept don't go around calling themselves the best of the best just because they wrote a book...

AlmightyWalrus wrote:

EmilCrane wrote:If people hate ultras due to over exposure then why aren't Cadians, Biel tan Eldar, T'au sept or any of the other studio armies hated? is there something unique to ultras that earns them this hate?

The fact that they're everywhere all the time? Sure, Cadians, and T'au are relatively overexposed, but not anywhere close to the extent of the Ultramarines. And the Cadians and the T'au sept don't go around calling themselves the best of the best just because they wrote a book...

Cadians do get over hyped a bit in the guard book though. Most of the SCs are Cadian as well. I think its a bit unfair to hate the ultras purely through overexposure. You need to get to know them and then learn to truly hate them because of who they are and what they're like, not just because they're everywhere.

EmilCrane wrote:

AlmightyWalrus wrote:

EmilCrane wrote:If people hate ultras due to over exposure then why aren't Cadians, Biel tan Eldar, T'au sept or any of the other studio armies hated? is there something unique to ultras that earns them this hate?

The fact that they're everywhere all the time? Sure, Cadians, and T'au are relatively overexposed, but not anywhere close to the extent of the Ultramarines. And the Cadians and the T'au sept don't go around calling themselves the best of the best just because they wrote a book...

Cadians do get over hyped a bit in the guard book though. Most of the SCs are Cadian as well. I think its a bit unfair to hate the ultras purely through overexposure. You need to get to know them and then learn to truly hate them because of who they are and what they're like, not just because they're everywhere.

Oh, I don't hate them because of overexposure, but I'm sure there's many out there who do. I almost laugh at them and their "everyone wants to be Ultra!" thing, and I'm sure that my Black Templars would laugh with me if they weren't made of plastic. I DO dislike the Ultras because they talk a lot about how to make war, but when gak hits the fan, they're conveniently in the other side of the galaxy. The only exception being Hive Fleet Behemoth, which wasn't defeated by the Ultramarines, but by the Dominus Astra.

Tazz Azrael wrote:

Sidstyler wrote:Just because they're an unrepresented minority that doesn't give you the right!

The only blue people ive seen are the ones that are choking, nine times outa ten they deserved it

Is that the reason that you are wearing a gas mask?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

vaatbak wrote:

Tazz Azrael wrote:

Sidstyler wrote:Just because they're an unrepresented minority that doesn't give you the right!

The only blue people ive seen are the ones that are choking, nine times outa ten they deserved it

Is that the reason that you are wearing a gas mask?

(in your avatar)

I thought the other day about starting an Ultramarines army, but adding a center spike to their U to make it a trident, and calling them the Aquamarines.

they got their name from the ultramar gas stations (as well as their colour scheme's) they are everywhere, and just show how bland and boring space marines are

Personally,I think it's whole "gay" issue is silly.
I mean so what is they get new stuff and are everywhere.
It's just a bunch of kids hoping on the bandwagon of something they don't even know why.

Personally just to rub it in paint them green,say it's actually Calgars long lost,similairly armed and skilled twin brother Balgar,and see what they say.

Ok yes,I'm Chaos and I do look at the lastest SM codex and sigh at them gaining lots of cool stuff,while we lost half a codex in the last edition.Sometimes crying saying "Why can't Chaos have the thunderfire cannon,the Iron Warriors used that sort of thing first".

Lucky Loyalists.
Lol

They are REALLY overexposed. When you first start, the Ultramarines are the side that the book intro book really pushes (if you start with AoBR). Most of the displays I've seen of Space Marines are Ultramarines. They are like the flagship army that gets all the attention from Grandpa GW, so all the other grandchildren are resentful. In the fluff, they are the do-no-wrongs of saintly blueness who are super awesome at everything. Oh, their primarch wrote that freakin' book that everyone has to listen to just because he's Rowboat Girlyman. That's why so many people hate the Ultramarines. That being said, if that's what you want to paint, go for it!

Ultramarines are fun to paint, and a fully painted UM force on the tabletop can look damn good. (but so can anything else)

I LIKE Ultramarines. I liked em back in the day when Rogue Trader was out and I thought that the Crimson Fists were a founding chapter (they're on the freakin cover!). I like how they stood toe to toe with (at the time) was the biggest and newest threat to the IoM (the Tyranids). I like how they were almost wiped out, but came back better then ever. They don't have special doodad's and doo-hickeys, they are the all around goodguys. Like it was said earlier, jack of all trades, master of none. They don't need no bell and whistle troops.

I liked em back when 40k was using those crazy stat lines and not having a beaky marine was seen as weird. When the plastics were a cream colored and not this grey color.

And if you STILL think they are gay and suck.....

All of my problems with the Ultramarines stem from the fluff. First, you have Roboute. He is the ultimate meh Primarch. He is all about moderation and neutrality. He has no significant weaknesses, and has all traits in moderation. This leads into my second point as the one trait he should have in spades, he lacks - loyalty. When the HH breaks out, his marines, the "best" of them all, and also the most numerous, are surprise attacked by a portion - a portion - of the Word Bearers. Somehow, him turning the tables on a smaller force led by basically the worst fighter amongst the Primarchs is touted as some sort of miracle. When the dust settles and his father is interred on the Golden Throne, good old Roboute wastes no time in declaring that his ideas on how the Space Marines do things are the right and only way, despite the fact that the Emperor established the Legions and not pansy little chapters. He is willing to start a civil war against his remaining brothers unless they do what he says, averted only by Dorn being the bigger man. Then this vaunted tactical genius proceeded to get his proverbial ass kicked by the Alpha Legion, even after their primarch was supposedly killed. And let's not forget who woke the damn Nightbringer.

Correct me if I am wrong but I thought that the Ultras just lost their 1st company to Behemoth? That hardly compares to the Blood Angels getting wiped down to 50 marines left in their entire Chapter assaulting a Space Hulk full of Stealers and still comping back.

If the Ultras want to avoid a repeat they should go learn some strategy from the Tau. Due to Puretide's teachings Shadowsun was able to command a Tau fleet and destroy a Nid splinter fleet without losing a single ship. And the Tau have the arguable worst navy in the universe. Problem Astartes?

Also the sheer stupidity of following the Codex to the letter is astounding. How many times have the Iron Warriors exploited this knowing the precise timings behind certain maneuvers. Emperor help them if the Nids ever bring back the Zoats who could read the thing and distribute it across the hive mind. Lucky they have the GW character shield.

Atma01 wrote:If the Ultras want to avoid a repeat they should go learn some strategy from the Tau. Due to Puretide's teachings Shadowsun was able to command a Tau fleet and destroy a Nid splinter fleet without losing a single ship. And the Tau have the arguable worst navy in the universe. Problem Astartes?

There's your problem. Oh, and the Imperium was still new to fighting the 'nids.

LoL 4 pages of just about the same opinions being reposted by different people.

The only enlightening aspect of reading this whole thread was the link to the old WD article. now THAT was good reading!
lol
"gene-sperm"
lol

Atma01 wrote:If the Ultras want to avoid a repeat they should go learn some strategy from the Tau. Due to Puretide's teachings Shadowsun was able to command a Tau fleet and destroy a Nid splinter fleet without losing a single ship. And the Tau have the arguable worst navy in the universe. Problem Astartes?

Words cannot express how much I hate this particular piece of fluff. No causalities? I don't think so. Not even the heavenly saints of blueness could have pulled that one off.

Alphapod wrote:

Atma01 wrote:If the Ultras want to avoid a repeat they should go learn some strategy from the Tau. Due to Puretide's teachings Shadowsun was able to command a Tau fleet and destroy a Nid splinter fleet without losing a single ship. And the Tau have the arguable worst navy in the universe. Problem Astartes?

Words cannot express how much I hate this particular piece of fluff. No causalities? I don't think so. Not even the heavenly saints of blueness could have pulled that one off.

Actually their is a bit more to it then that. The Tau are for the most part are not bound by doctrine and rituals and adapt and change their technology and strategic think quite regularly. The fluff pretty much says that the Tyranids have had the hardest time facing the Tau, because they are so similar. The Tyranids adapt their biology, the Tau adapt their technology.

Plus I have seen far worst fluff slapped up. Like oh say... the Ultra Marines holding one planet with a bunch of PDF and one company of marines.

Thats why my chapter doesn't follow the codex.
The Ultras have also screwed my chapter over a few times. And marine players who are ultramarines retreated and left me to face a horde of enemies for another purpose of redeploying to ensure they don't die. It is the first thing kids see when they walk into a store. The Ultras are kinda of by the book, and I hate following the book. It limits everything and the sense of difference. And they don't seem human at all. People need characters you can relate too.

My theory is that the majority of 40k players who hate Ultramarines also hate the Indianapolis Colts.
(i feel that anyone outside the US won't get this joke...)

Probably because they have their own movie, and it's pretty crappy CGI. Making you want to vomit into your mouth, and spit it on an Ultramarine players cat.

Just sayin...