This question has come to me recently. I haven't been seeing any Seer Councils around the club and haven't had much discussion about them recently. For a time, Seer Councils were the fear of the 40k universe, in my humble opinion. Is this still so? Do you still fear them? or have you never feared the Council at all? Why?

I'd love to hear some input!

The Seer Council on Jetbikes is still a thing to be feared. It's highly mobile and incredibly difficult to kill.

It's two big drawbacks are that 1) It's very very expensive (both in terms of the point costs and the $ costs) and 2) It isn't as killy as you'd like and can be stopped by getting stuck in CC with Termies.

I agree with Grakmar, Seer councils aren't as good as they once were but they are still a thing to be feared, on bike or foot.

They still aren't the kind of enemy you can ignore unless you have some impressive psychic protection; as such they are still a priority target and a fearsome one if used properly/not countered.

You don't see them as much anymore because of the above reasons, plus the most recent SM and SW codices.

SM is the main thing- assault terminators are great, and Seer Councils, while deadly, still get tied up against 2+ saves for a while. The ubiquity of cheap & useful Librarians is another big factor; when your whole army hinges on successfully casting Fortune every turn, it sucks to have near-half the armies you see packing Ld10 psychic hoods. The other major problem is Null Zone- if it goes off, suddenly those impregnable jetseers are merely mortal again.

SW add to it a little by having even more-ubiquitous psykers, who cancel powers on a 4+ (slightly better odds than a hood).

For most serious tournament players, it's just too big a chance of getting screwed by a bad matchup.

No.

Power blobs > jetbike council. Even when they have crappy luck and don't kill them straight away, you've just tarpitted a very expensive unit for basically the entire game.

Seer councils cut through guardsmen like a hot knife through butter.

Only if you're lucky.

Wound allocation rules also cost seers their important warlocks sometimes, another detriment.

They're good, but to expensive in 5th to build armies around.

It's the second-to-last thing I want to see on an enemy Eldar list (the first being a trio of Fire Prisms and more than one Wave Serpent), but I can deal with it.

Ailaros wrote:Only if you're lucky. Power blobs beat seer councils when dice roll statistically average.

Warlocks shoot with 18 shots (assume no Destructor awesomeness), hitting with 16, killing 10.7
Farseer shoots with 2 shots, hitting with 1.94, killing 1.29
Farseer gets 2 attacks (1 for base, 1 for charge, he probably has a Singing Spear): 2 attacks, 1.33 hits, 1.11 wound, 0.74 dead
9 Warlocks, 24 attacks (assume 3 have spears): 24 attack, 16 hits, 13.33 wounds, 8.89 dead
Total of 21.59 dead IG

IG return attacks: 1/2 hit, 1/2 wound, 1/3 failed save, 1/3 failed re-save, 0.027 inflicted wounds per guard attack.
Say you have a max squad of 50+Commissar. ~29 survive the incoming attacks (and all Sergeants and a Commissar), so 23 attacks from Guardsmen, 15 attacks from Sergeants, 3 from Commissar is a total of 41 attacks.
You'll kill a total of 1.14 warlocks.

During IG's combat phase will be much better on the blob squad. 5.56 dead Guardsmen (leaving 24), 1 dead Warlocks (leaving 7+Farseer)

2nd Eldar CC: 4.81 dead IG (leaving 19), 0.86 dead Warlocks (leaving 6+Farseer)

2nd IG CC: 4.07 dead IG (leaving 15), 0.75 dead Warlocks (leaving 5+Farseer)

3rd Eldar CC: 3.7 dead IG (leaving 11), 0.63 dead Warlocks (leaving 5+Farseer, the decimals added up to not killing one)

3rd IG CC: 3.7 dead IG (leaving 8), 0.55 dead Warlocks (leaving 4+Farseer)

4th Eldar CC: 2.96 dead IG (leaving 5, assume 4 Sergeants and Commissar), 0.41 dead Warlocks (leaving 4+Farseer)

4th IG CC: 2.96 dead IG (leaving Sergeant+Commissar), 0.16 dead Warlocks (leaving 3+Farseer)

5th Eldar CC: 2.22 dead IG (leaving nothing).

Eldar Win!!!

Obviously, there's been some simplifications. The Sergeants and Commissar didn't get any power weapon upgrades. Everything was assumed to kill the weakest models first (although I did kill quite a few Witchblade Warlocks). And the guard were assumed to pass all 8 moral checks.

But, even so, the huge blob squad was only able to kill 6 Warlocks.

Couple of things which tweak this:

First, they'll have cover saves when you shoot them. Either through actual cover or at least going to ground. So that cuts the shooting casualties by half or at least 1/6th.

Second, all the sgts and the commissar will have power weapons. No one runs a big blob squad like that without them.

Third, most players who run this use Straken, which means they'll normally be getting a charge bonus when you charge them.

The obvious problem with that exchange there is that that blob costs 285 points, whereas the warlocks sucks up more than 550.

Numerically speaking, the Eldar player has just been thoroughly clobbered.

Mannahnin wrote:Couple of things which tweak this:

First, they'll have cover saves when you shoot them. Either through actual cover or at least going to ground. So that cuts the shooting casualties by half or at least 1/6th.

Second, all the sgts and the commissar will have power weapons. No one runs a big blob squad like that without them.

Third, most players who run this use Straken, which means they'll normally be getting a charge bonus when you charge them.

1) I assume this is somewhat balanced out by me pretending the Warlocks didn't have any Destructor. Each template can hit and kill quite a few IG (maybe hit 6, kill 4 as a rough guess), and most Seer Councils run around 3 of those. So, that alone is going to get a dozen or so guard.

2) Yeah, the power weapon is a big deal. It's a 4++ re-roll invul rather than a 3+ re-roll armor, so you'll kill stuff about twice as often.

3) Damn! I forgot Straken.

This is getting to be a really complicated combat. Any statisticians in the audience that want to really break this down, including wound allocation?

But, bottom line, I'd say if you take everything into account, the Seer Council is going to win or it's going to be a close call. I don't think things are going to shift that significantly to give the Guard a definitive win.

Although, this combat will last long enough (as long as the Commissar is around) that both squads are effectively done for the remainder of the game. They just become a huge pile of slowly shrinking impassible terrain.

But the warlocks always bring a few Destructor templates. Some even bring a lot of Destructors. Since it's basically impossible to charge the Jetseers with a foot squad unless they intentionally let you, odds are basically guaranteed some of those Destructors land on target.

If the Destructors can't land on target due to spread out blob, there's no way in Hades that you're going to get many attacks after Pile In! moves. Short story is that Eldar win, slowly, 2 or 3 turns after they charge.

Jetseers fear IG, but not because of power blobs. It's because if IG go first, before Eldar can Fortune, that 600 point Jetseer squad is going to die to massed everything fire.

Right. In perfect circumstances against a crappy list, against a poor commander, and outspending the power blob by nearly 2:1, a jetbike council CAN, in fact, beat a power blob.

back to reality...

Nulipuli2 wrote:Seer councils cut through guardsmen like a hot knife through butter.

Not particularly. There aren't enough attacks there to wipe out a power blob even with a full size council. The unit will get bogged down for a couple turns and take losses fighting a unit cheaper than itself. Against a more conventional IG player he actually wants you to wipe out the squad so he can hose you down with lasfire in his own turn.

I'm not afraid mostly because of reasons I listed above

They are not really killy - I'll throw in some thunderwolves or whatever I have with a 3+ save at them and it will slow them down for awhile. This is if I don't have a rune priest btw.

Psyker defense, usually I have a rune priest around. If I don't, a lot of my HQ units get a wargear that gives them and their unit they are in a 5+ save to negated psyker effects targeting them. Are runepriests/wolftooth necklaces reliable? Kind of, not really, but the fact is I have some sort of psyker defense and it has a decent chance of negating seer council powers.

Ailaros wrote:Right. In perfect circumstances against a crappy list, against a poor commander, and outspending the power blob by nearly 2:1, a jetbike council CAN, in fact, beat a power blob.

back to reality...

Yeah?

Show me your 'non-perfect-circumstances uber Rommel commander' deployment where your power blob protects itself from templates while also getting a bunch of attacks.

I find it funny when people worry about how many of a power blob's models get into combat. You're going to lead with your PW Sergeants and Commissars. Therefore, even if half of your squad is out, a little less than 2/3rd of your attacks are still in, including all the power weapons. The teeth, as it were, are still there. All that's missing is ablative wounds that can still be removed when casualties are taken.

So yes, the power of the blob will be reduced if not everyone can get into combat, but not near as much as people tend to imply.


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And yes, I'm still afraid of Seer Council. I play mech guard, and I have zero answers for them. Heck, if anyone has suggestions, I'm open for it. (sans GH Psychic Hood, I don't want allies as a crutch)

sourclams wrote:Show me your 'non-perfect-circumstances uber Rommel commander' deployment where your power blob protects itself from templates while also getting a bunch of attacks.

Done.

In the above, the power blob ultimately lost, but it lost to twice its points in eldar while the eldar player's luck was extremely good (40 power weapon attacks (12 of which rerolled to hit) along with 10 power fist attacks, and he fails TWO invul saves?), and STILL managed to tar-pit the seer squad until it was too late to be useful.

If this is what power blobs to to a jetbike council when they have BAD luck...

Blobs don't need to charge, frfsrf would work just fine against eldar. They don't even need the close range tripple tap, the 24" double tap is plenty. A seer council list just is not going to outgun ig, so ig can sit still with blobs and make seer council come to them. That means they will have to eat at least 1 turn of frfsrf double taps, and very possibly from multiple platoons. Since it only takes 4 shots to wound a seer/6 shots on a bike the prospect of eating 72 shots from 2 platoons +heavy/special weps isn't good for seer council.

Ailaros wrote:

sourclams wrote:Show me your 'non-perfect-circumstances uber Rommel commander' deployment where your power blob protects itself from templates while also getting a bunch of attacks.

Done.

In the above, the power blob ultimately lost, but it lost to twice its points in eldar while the eldar player's luck was extremely good (40 power weapon attacks (12 of which rerolled to hit) along with 10 power fist attacks, and he fails TWO invul saves?), and STILL managed to tar-pit the seer squad until it was too late to be useful.

If this is what power blobs to to a jetbike council when they have BAD luck...

You're right in that blobs are much cheaper than JetCouncils and can effectively tarpit them for the entire game.

But, your opponent made 2 critical mistakes.

1) That Seer Council needs to be optimized. It should have a few more Warlocks and it needs Enhance.

2) The only reason you got the charge (which is quite the game changer) is because he gave it to you in exchange for the 3 Hydras. He should have gotten that Blob squad into the assault as well. Throwing 14 S9 attacks against 3 AV10 targets is a tad overkill. And, that way he could take advantage of shooting and soften that blob squad up quite a bit.


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schadenfreude wrote:Blobs don't need to charge, frfsrf would work just fine against eldar. They don't even need the close range tripple tap, the 24" double tap is plenty. A seer council list just is not going to outgun ig, so ig can sit still with blobs and make seer council come to them. That means they will have to eat at least 1 turn of frfsrf double taps, and very possibly from multiple platoons. Since it only takes 4 shots to wound a seer/6 shots on a bike the prospect of eating 72 shots from 2 platoons +heavy/special weps isn't good for seer council.

You're underestimating how many shots it takes to kill a seer council member.

72 shots, 36 hits, 12 wounds, 4 failed saves, 1.33 failed re-roll save.

Heavy/Special weapons aren't going to do much either, especially if they're AP4 or higher.

Seer Councils are amazingly survivable. They just aren't all that killy.

i don't fear Seer Councils because i play Space Marines, have Psychic Hoods, and Null Zone.

if i played a different army in a competitive field i would certaintly fear them more.

Grakmar wrote:2) The only reason you got the charge (which is quite the game changer) is because he gave it to you in exchange for the 3 Hydras.

Well, this is sort of my point. Avoiding the absolutely worst case scenario possible isn't actually that hard. In this case, I used a sacrificial unit. If my opponent would have done something else, I would have done something else to counter.

If the only way that the seer council wins is in the absolutely most perfect set of circumstances imaginable, well, that doesn't say much for the seer council.

As you mention, the only real cool thing is that they're super-survivable. Their killing power against hordes leaves a lot to be desired.

Sorry their aren't many eldar players where I play (mostly meq) and I don't have an eldar codex.

Could somebody tell me what's in a good seer council with their special rules please?

You could always, I don't know...Mind war the commissar. All things told though, when you combine shooting and close combat attacks from the council, I would think that by the time it got to swing, the platoon wouldn't have much left at the end of the first round of combat. As for the power weapons up front, nothing says that the council needs to hit a dispersed platoon from the "front". It's fast enough to move where the stuff that will kill it isn't, and as previously stated it is still inflicting it's full wounds on the platoon.

Cjc1223 wrote:Sorry their aren't many eldar players where I play (mostly meq) and I don't have an eldar codex.

Could somebody tell me what's in a good seer council with their special rules please?

5++ cover
4++ invo
3+ armor if on jetbikes

Farseer gives rerolls to armor/cover/invos with ba sucessful psychic test.

On that note ig should just pbs the seer council. Will probably take 2 pbs to get a single test past runes of warding, but once it goes off a farseer will have problems getting fortune off with a severly reduced leadership. Seer council dies quickly when fortune fails to go off.

No dice on the PBS, my friend. The Ld is only lowered for the remainder of the turn. Since they're casting powers in their turn, it won't be in effect.

I was thinking they would work since the group isn't fearless, but you have to actually be able to a) deal enough wounds to cause morale and then b) get past the runes. On 3d6 you have to roll less than a 9. It can happen, but by the time it does, how many psykers are you going to have left? Again, it's possible, but I'd have to rework my whole list to make points and elite slots available for two squads. Quite a hassle for one unit when success still isn't likely.

Ailaros wrote:As you mention, the only real cool thing is that they're super-survivable. Their killing power against hordes leaves a lot to be desired.

I'm with you on this one. Despite their excellent damage potential and nigh-invulnerability to massed fire, they're still not as scary as they used to be. Even if they do get that assault, being bogged by enemy troops is worse than death for a power-HQ like the jetcouncil.

Cool story bro

Yes, I am still afraid of Seer Councils. Then again, I play Black Templars, so I have no way of stopping fortune (except allies, and they're going away soon anyway, might as well learn to play without...). I also don't have the awesome thunderhammerinators of the 5th ed marine dexes, so that's pretty much a no-no too.

Ailaros wrote:

sourclams wrote:Show me your 'non-perfect-circumstances uber Rommel commander' deployment where your power blob protects itself from templates while also getting a bunch of attacks.

Done.

In the above, the power blob ultimately lost, but it lost to twice its points in eldar while the eldar player's luck was extremely good (40 power weapon attacks (12 of which rerolled to hit) along with 10 power fist attacks, and he fails TWO invul saves?), and STILL managed to tar-pit the seer squad until it was too late to be useful.

If this is what power blobs to to a jetbike council when they have BAD luck...

So if the Eldar player sucks and doesn't outmaneuver the powerblob, or shoot the powerblob, or lets itself get charged by the powerblob, and if you sacrifice tank squadrons to set up the "trap" for the powerblob....

Yeah, then the power blob definitely comes into its own against Jetseers.

Well, I regularly play a Seer Council in my mech Eldar army, on foot and mounted in a Serpent.
A footslogging Council has some downsides when compared with Jetcouncil.
However, if you go 2nd or come from reserve, its not possible to fortune the Council.
This makes a foot Council in a transport a viable option.

If you use it correctly, it can kill almost any unit out there in the 40k universe.
My biggest fear is nullzone, nothing else.

wuestenfux wrote:If you use it correctly, it can kill almost any unit out there in the 40k universe.
My biggest fear is nullzone, nothing else.

And, if on foot, Incinerators and Psycannons. There is nothing more hilarious than telling your Eldar opponent that his Council just got gak to pieces and that they're not allowed to save at all...

sourclams wrote:

Ailaros wrote:

sourclams wrote:Show me your 'non-perfect-circumstances uber Rommel commander' deployment where your power blob protects itself from templates while also getting a bunch of attacks.

Done.

In the above, the power blob ultimately lost, but it lost to twice its points in eldar while the eldar player's luck was extremely good (40 power weapon attacks (12 of which rerolled to hit) along with 10 power fist attacks, and he fails TWO invul saves?), and STILL managed to tar-pit the seer squad until it was too late to be useful.

If this is what power blobs to to a jetbike council when they have BAD luck...

So if the Eldar player sucks and doesn't outmaneuver the powerblob, or shoot the powerblob, or lets itself get charged by the powerblob, and if you sacrifice tank squadrons to set up the "trap" for the powerblob....

Yeah, then the power blob definitely comes into its own against Jetseers.

you forgot that part about having a poor council build aswell

So wouldn't it really be Powerblob points + 3x tank points vs jetseer points?

And seriously, bad mathhammer hurts to read. "Gawr I didn't roll statistically average, which is not actually something you get when you spam simple division over and over again, and isn't actually something that works for discrete events anyway, my predictions have betrayed me!" etc etc.

AlmightyWalrus wrote:

wuestenfux wrote:If you use it correctly, it can kill almost any unit out there in the 40k universe.
My biggest fear is nullzone, nothing else.

And, if on foot, Incinerators and Psycannons. There is nothing more hilarious than telling your Eldar opponent that his Council just got gak to pieces and that they're not allowed to save at all...

These weapons were rather unusual. But this might change when the new DH codex comes out.

MikeMcSomething wrote:So wouldn't it really be Powerblob points + 3x tank points vs jetseer points?

And seriously, bad mathhammer hurts to read. "Gawr I didn't roll statistically average, which is not actually something you get when you spam simple division over and over again, and isn't actually something that works for discrete events anyway, my predictions have betrayed me!" etc etc.

I'm still waiting for the part where you add to the conversation. . . It would be great if you could even suggest a guard unit that could deal with a council better than a blob could. Until then, get back under your bridge.

If you're having a hard time understanding my (remarkably simple) post then the best way to rectify that would be to ask for clarification.

ElCheezus wrote:

MikeMcSomething wrote:So wouldn't it really be Powerblob points + 3x tank points vs jetseer points?

And seriously, bad mathhammer hurts to read. "Gawr I didn't roll statistically average, which is not actually something you get when you spam simple division over and over again, and isn't actually something that works for discrete events anyway, my predictions have betrayed me!" etc etc.

I'm still waiting for the part where you add to the conversation. . . It would be great if you could even suggest a guard unit that could deal with a council better than a blob could. Until then, get back under your bridge.

The entire guard army shooting it on the top of Turn 1. 600 pts of Seer Council turn into 11 Marines with a cover save.

That is the IG hard counter to Seer Council, and that is why (along with the Space Wolf codex) they've faded into the background, much like Nob Bikers. This is an army matchup where, if you lose first turn or get the initiative stolen, you lose, g'bye.

If that doesn't happen, and the Jetseers do get Fortune off, and the Eldar player is any good, then it becomes a game again and the IG player will have to do any number of things to keep a highly resilient, highly mobile unit from bouncing through their tank line.

To get to that point, however, the Eldar player is going to have to get past the 60% of the time when he doesn't go first.

Seer councils are to be respected, not feared......which is a big difference...

What a shame, what a shame! I've always found these guys to be made of pure awesomeness. A hefty pricetag and getting your psychic powers denied just takes all the cream away.

I don't play Eldars myself, but i was really hoping for finding threads about how your army would suck if not fielding these guys. They're one of my favorite units in the entire game!

You get to go first 50 percent of the time, just like your opponent does. I don't understand why an eldar's opponent would go first 60 percent of the time.

I suppose the rolls to seize would just about even out, bringing you back to ~50%...

I've played against the Seer Council for a while, and some of my armies have no trouble with them, others I just have to try to tie them up and hope for the best... My Marine armies (SW, BA, DA) all have psychic defenses making Fortune "less reliable", and Termis or dedicated Assault types to go forth and tie them up and kill them off... IG, well, my Ogres can usually tie them up for a few turns since they play "linebacker/safety" in my IG lists... But in a 1500 point list the SC is a huge chunk, meaning that in 2/3 missions I can win the mission by focusing on the few "Troops" the SC player can field, and the IG can bring the firepower to do that more often than not...

Taoofss wrote:You get to go first 50 percent of the time, just like your opponent does. I don't understand why an eldar's opponent would go first 60 percent of the time.

You almost have to leave them in reserve at that point, as 5/6 of the time they get shot off the table. Sorry, my assumption does leave for some ambiguity that skews the number away from the Eldar player.

Edit:

Death Company are another recent addition to the meta that has made the Seers less appealing. WS5 with a 'built-in' Fortune effect due to FNP and more power weapons plus rerolls at a cheaper cost...

freddieyu1 wrote:Seer councils are to be respected, not feared......which is a big difference...

Indeed. In 5th my workhorse, 'go to' army became Space Wolves, like so many other players, and typically running 2 runepriests and possibly 4, or another HQ, I am not afraid of seer councils, (pretty easy to tag the fortune off), a simple 4+ Invulnerable with a T3 underneath and no power weapons isn't that great.

Now Eldraad AND Seer Councils, that's pretty good, I see that as a threat, especially if it also has Yriel too, which is what I run when I play Eldar, but that's so many points for just 1 unit, it cant be everywhere...

I'm assuming you run the seers on foot (or in serpent) as opposed to bikes then? Back in the 'day' of early 5th (so pre IG, pre SW, right after C:SM was re-released) a guy I regularly played against did Serpent seers to very good effect but I do wonder if the special chars are enough of a twist. Badly needed power weapon additions, but the cost is monstrous while survivability is lower.

Still has problems with SW but not near so much risk of being shot to death on T1 if they can start in the WS.

Don't think I'd do it, but it's a twist, I suppose. Death Company and Space Wolves are still a problem.

sourclams wrote:... it's a twist, I suppose. Death Company and Space Wolves are still a problem.

Yes you have it, I run them in a waveserpent as s single group. Space wolf rune priests are a great nemesis, essentially nullifying it. Any high power assault unit is dicey, thunder hammer terminators in a landraider are a problem too as well as death company and even regular FNP BAs , especially with Libs or Mephiston (another army of mine as well).

It's a much less effective combination these days but it's what I have painted. My Yriel and Eldraad conversions I really like!

Essentially it hinges on skimmer overload, and speed, hopefully you can turboboost the waveserpent where you want the seer council to be and there wont be a high power assault unit or a enemy psyker there.

I'll say this, the seer serpent council murders IG tank lines with multi charge, it's pretty great, especially if they don't move their tanks to try and shoot more to down your serpent, then your models get out and go wild, I had some 5th ed tourney games where the seers got as many as 4 tanks in a single assault!

As an Ork player (no Psyker defense, yo), I for one do not like Seer Councils. I pretty much have to rely on the Nobz to hold out, and they require inordinate amounts of shooting to soften up.

The problem with seer councils is fairly simple.. they have limited access to power weapons and have limited attacks for a truly expensive price tag. They are super survivable but against 3+ power armor, they just dont perform as well as you would hope. Now that there are even more hardy marines around(BA with FNP) it makes it even harder to use them properly.
What a seer council is amazing against is mech guard, as with fortune up the seer council is TOUGH. Against other players, they are so so. And all it takes is one stroke of bad luck ie a single loota shot killing the farseer, or a hidden fist doing the same, and the unit folds. For 600 points.. no thanks, I'l take 3 or 4 more WS's thankyou.

A regular player at my LGS plays a full Seer Council mounted in a Wave Serpent. I have a healthy respect for these guys, as even though they aren't indivivually powerful, they are fething hard to kill. It took three turns of assault with Sanguinary Guard to force them back once.

I use them rarely, they just don't seem worth it to me.
So many points for not enough killyness.
Great against vehicles and absorbing firepower but i'd rather have a larger army.

When facing a council, or any death star, i actually enjoy it.
Dooming them and wiping them in one turn is just too good an oppertunity to pass up if it works.

sourclams wrote:So if the Eldar player sucks and doesn't outmaneuver the powerblob, or shoot the powerblob, or lets itself get charged by the powerblob, and if you sacrifice tank squadrons to set up the "trap" for the powerblob....

Yeah, then the power blob definitely comes into its own against Jetseers.

Actually, my point is that, outside of perfect circumstances, jetseers just can't put out enough damage to handle power blobs. The fact that I, as the receiving player, have some degree of control over the circumstances of how jetseers are used only further illustrates my point. As such, in any situation other than the guard player letting the jetseer player do exactly whatever he wants, they're not going to come out ahead. Furthermore, as you mention, part of the "perfect" means that the eldar player has to build their jetlock unit exactly right, and play totally perfectly with them, which is also less than likely.

A jetbike council vs. a unit that is good at tarpitting is merely a dream. Statistics show that it only works in hypothetical situations which will rarely, if ever, exist.

And of course, as has been mentioned, this is assuming that the council doesn't get shot up, face off against a non-guard army that can bring a psychic hood (or a variety of other counters depending on the army), or that the eldar player himself doesn't have bad luck, in which case they are just stomped flat.

Basically, jetbike seer councils are good against static armies that rely on non-guard-artillery long-range shooting, that have lots of vehicles, but nothing that's either good in close combat, or is a tar pit unit. In other words, they stop guard mech and razorback spam, but aren't actually all that good against much else.

dayve110 wrote:I use them rarely, they just don't seem worth it to me....

Well that pretty much sums up the entire Eldar codex for me.

+1 to Ailaros

Seer Councils do have quite a few strong counters at this point. But, they can still single-handedly win a game against certain armies. (Taking out MC heavy Nids is my favorite! )

Augustus wrote:

dayve110 wrote:I use them rarely, they just don't seem worth it to me....

Well that pretty much sums up the entire Eldar codex for me.

Then your doing it wrong.

Basically, jetbike seer councils are good against static armies that rely on non-guard-artillery long-range shooting, that have lots of vehicles, but nothing that's either good in close combat, or is a tar pit unit. In other words, they stop guard mech and razorback spam, but aren't actually all that good against much else.

Against power blobs though, they can bring a pretty horifying number of flamer template weapons.
however this is completely negated by simply ending your turn ~15-18" from them and/or keeping your front line spread out, if they can't cause extremely significant casualties with those flamers they will be tarpitted for the entire game.
It is not a wonder you are not worried about flamers with how you run your blobs

dayve110 wrote:Then your doing it wrong.

Ailaros wrote:

A jetbike council vs. a unit that is good at tarpitting is merely a dream. Statistics show that it only works in hypothetical situations which will rarely, if ever, exist.

Statistics show that a council has jetbike movement and should have numerous heavy flamer templates, while the power blob tarpit is T3 with 5+ armor. Your opponent had a bad build and got suckered into a stupid situation.

Augustus wrote:

dayve110 wrote:Then your doing it wrong.

(Image)

I like the one with the rattle...

No, i do not fear them. cuz what do i have to fear with kharn and berzerker rush No but seriously, they are sometimes hard to kill

CSM don't have any psychic defenses but they do have one of the best counters to Seer Council available: the Plague Marine.

You can throw one squad of Plague Marines at Seers and just forget about them for the next 4 turns.

I never feared them, the Inquisition was enough protection.

In my experience, most people who run Jetseer Councils will run a full council (9 warlocks or so) or a small one (4-5 warlocks), sometimes with an Autarch attached to it.

Does anyone have any experience facing TWO "mini-councils"? I'm curious as to how that would pan out. Especially in a competitive environment.

The seer council has a specific role. Killing tanks and MC's. There is no reason to throw them at a power-blob. I will template them away with my storm guardians or pie plates from my Fire Prism.

If you use the council correctly they will make their points back more than double. If you a kill Land Raider and a Deamon prince against CSM you have made you points back. There is no way for a plague marine squad to EVER engage the council. Unless the eldar player is really bad.

The SM codex and Null Zone is when playing councils became garbage.

Eldar have been dealing with hoods and the like for a while and with Embolden and Runes of Witnessing, the prospect of a hood is not totally scary. When Null Zone can get rid of JB councils rerolls, suddenly the prospect of loosing 1 in 3 instead of 1 in 9 against wounding shots makes 40+ point models not that appealing.

SW do a better job of countering the Fortune than standard SM so they are pretty good too.

Overall they can still dominate a game but when you approach 30% of your total points you want a guarantee not a maybe that it will be a game-changing add to your list.

DAaddict wrote:The SM codex and Null Zone is when playing councils became garbage.

Eldar have been dealing with hoods and the like for a while and with Embolden and Runes of Witnessing, the prospect of a hood is not totally scary. When Null Zone can get rid of JB councils rerolls, suddenly the prospect of loosing 1 in 3 instead of 1 in 9 against wounding shots makes 40+ point models not that appealing.

SW do a better job of countering the Fortune than standard SM so they are pretty good too.

Overall they can still dominate a game but when you approach 30% of your total points you want a guarantee not a maybe that it will be a game-changing add to your list.

How does RoWit and embolden make the hood any less scary? Null Zone is indeed devastating but casting it will more often than not result in the libby taking a PotW hit. With that said it is not a bad idea at all to run dual Farseers in a council.

He may be getting a Hood confused with some of the other psychic defense out there (like R of Ward or Shadows of the Warp).

Runes of Witnessing and Embolden do nothing to change the effectiveness of a Hood, unfortunately.

Seer councils are still scary if used properly. Runes of Warding takes care of any Librarian foolish enough to cast Null zone. Odds are he will take Perils alot during the game, and he only has 2 wounds. They can take on vehicles and monstrous creatures very easily, and if equiped with heavy flamers can also make short work of infantry. Doom and fortune are incredible psychic powers, and can change the tide of battle easily. I cant wait to see 5th edition Eldar, I have a feeling well see even more interesting and useful psychic powers from Eldar.

The massive amount of psychic defense out there (especially with the most common tournament armies) makes them not as attractive an option. If they don't get fortune off, they're toast.

Too much rock/paper/scissors for my taste. Some times they'll be awesome, other times they'll be a waste of 500+ points.

AlmightyWalrus wrote:

wuestenfux wrote:If you use it correctly, it can kill almost any unit out there in the 40k universe.
My biggest fear is nullzone, nothing else.

And, if on foot, Incinerators and Psycannons. There is nothing more hilarious than telling your Eldar opponent that his Council just got gak to pieces and that they're not allowed to save at all...

Things like Psycannons are the reason I still take one Warlock with Conceal in the Council.

Ailaros wrote:No.

Power blobs > jetbike council. Even when they have crappy luck and don't kill them straight away, you've just tarpitted a very expensive unit for basically the entire game.

And if they're assaulting a power blob, then they deserve to be tarpitted. 6 destructor templates should make cutting through a power blob much easier.

I don't fear seercouncils but they are annoying to kill. Most deathstar units in the game put seercouncils at a disadvantage. Nullzone is a pain. Bloodcrushers are a bigger pain and with how combat resolution works, you can lose 600-700 points in 1 round.

NULLZONE and FORTUNE is LOL, one causes you to reroll MISSES and the other SUCCESS rolls.

If this actually happens you have to roll twice neglecting everything in the first roll, no matter what it was, it's quite silly.

Augustus wrote:NULLZONE and FORTUNE is LOL, one causes you to reroll MISSES and the other SUCCESS rolls.

If this actually happens you have to roll twice neglecting everything in the first roll, no matter what it was, it's quite silly.

Actually, most people just play that the first save roll sticks, regardless if it's a save or a fail. It saves a lot of unnecessary rolling.

Things like Psycannons are the reason I still take one Warlock with Conceal in the Council.

That's a good point, especially when the new DH come out and one will eventually see more DH armies in the future.

Now that 6th is out, how does everyone feel about this question? I'm curious. Does anyone play JB Seer Councils?

Holy Thread Necro!!!

Why not just start a new one instead of commiting this heinous act?!?!?

They're as garbage as ever.

If anyone tells you there was a time they weren't garbage, they are mistaken. They've never been worth the cost. People just overreacted to something they saw on paper, not in an actual game.

 DarknessEternal wrote:
They're as garbage as ever.

If anyone tells you there was a time they weren't garbage, they are mistaken. They've never been worth the cost. People just overreacted to something they saw on paper, not in an actual game.

yeah, the current harlystar is scarrier and even it isnt all that great.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Alerian wrote:
Holy Thread Necro!!!

Why not just start a new one instead of commiting this heinous act?!?!?

two years dead

There's no "defense" vs fortune now........... However, terminators are more common.

You people seriously underestimate invisibility powered councils. Look at Matt DeFranza's list. Second at BFS, won 2nd bracket at NOVA. Invisibility councils with fortune stacked are damn near impossible to kill and they can do a fair bit of damage to infantry while taking little in return due to being hit on a 5+. Not to mention that with the addition of allies it is possible to give councils hit and run with Baron.

I do agree that coucils can be a bit too top-heavy, but it is pure ignorance to fully dismiss them. I think DeFranza's list provides solid proof of that.

I'm not underestimating them at all. I know that they can be very, very potent. My general stat is to tarpit them them, not kill them.

Seer councils are very situational. If you run against the right opponents, it can wreck. However, it is quite weak in melee and VERY expensive. a full bike council with invis/fortune farseers is ~700 points (needs 2 farseers). Throw in baron for a 800 point unit., If your opponent tries to shoot it down, its unkillable, however, it suffers from being unable to kill enough to make its point value. It can only be in one place on the map and the necessity to knock units off multiple objectives while defending your own smaller quantity of troops make the unit very easy to deal with.

If i see one, im never worried. Simply know how to deal with them. Reserve all your troop choices, spread your vehicles out, and get them in melee as often as possible. Get that fist into a challenge with a farseer.Kill the fortune farseer or deny his power and the unit ends up with a 3+/3++ save making it no harder to kill to quantity of fire than marines at more than 3x the cost.

Seer councils are pretty bad. They rely so much on fortune and this edition was not kind to relying on one model in a unit.

Why would you reserve all your troops?

Also, you can't deny fortune. You can't deny any buffs in 6th edition.

Allying in eldar or SW bring Runes of Warding or Rune Priests which can both deny buffs and are very good at doing both. Nids also deny buffs with shadows.

Reserving troops means that you have a minimal ability to kill my scoring troops. In most codexes troops are largely point-damage ineffective. Seer councils largely rely on mobility and making my reactionary mobility able to combat your natural mobility with just my general troops means you lose a big portion of the appeal of those units. If i can bring my troops onto an objective on the other side of the board it makes you waste yet another turn turbo boosting over there to deal with them. Its playing the mission rather than necessarily dealing with the council.

Martel732 wrote:
Why would you reserve all your troops?

Also, you can't deny fortune. You can't deny any buffs in 6th edition.

SW can deny ANY power on 4+, Njal on a 3+

Okay. let me rephrase. Buffs can't be denied via Deny the Witch. That's what I meant by "denying". I am well aware of the Eldar and Tyranids. Didn't know the space wolves could do it too. Thanks for the heads up.

zephoid wrote:
Get that fist into a challenge with a farseer.

Warlocks are still characters. No Eldar player using a seer council should ever allow this. Certain armies can block Eldar powers much more often than Eldar would like, yes, but that's army specific. And while there is a huge cry of "Just ally a Farseer", actual instances of that have been fairly low because you're forced to bring in a weak troop as well to hard counter one army and not gain much versus other, currently stronger, armies.

zephoid wrote:
Allying in eldar or SW bring Runes of Warding or Rune Priests which can both deny buffs and are very good at doing both. Nids also deny buffs with shadows.

Reserving troops means that you have a minimal ability to kill my scoring troops. In most codexes troops are largely point-damage ineffective. Seer councils largely rely on mobility and making my reactionary mobility able to combat your natural mobility with just my general troops means you lose a big portion of the appeal of those units. If i can bring my troops onto an objective on the other side of the board it makes you waste yet another turn turbo boosting over there to deal with them. Its playing the mission rather than necessarily dealing with the council.

Hmm. BA vehicles can move 24" in a single turn, so I think I could force turbo boosts without having to reserve the troops. I really, really, dislike reserving units I don't have to. I usually find that an assault squad with FNP keeps the seer council busy a long, long time. DC can actually kill some if they get the drop and assault.

Martel732 wrote:
I'm not underestimating them at all. I know that they can be very, very potent. My general stat is to tarpit them them, not kill them.

That's why you ally with DE for the HQ that gives the squad Hit & Run.

They're now a Highly mobile unit. Fairly killy with the "flamers", being able to reroll psy powers with embolden is just silly.

A guy won out a local tourney with them. Ran through GK,Necrons, and Nids IIRC.
Wish I had been there. Orks always win

Wow. Hit and run seer council. That's pretty badass........ The Eldar codex really needs updated because they have some real poor choices and then some outright cheesy things too. Too many peaks and valleys.

Quark wrote:

zephoid wrote:
Get that fist into a challenge with a farseer.

Warlocks are still characters. No Eldar player using a seer council should ever allow this. Certain armies can block Eldar powers much more often than Eldar would like, yes, but that's army specific. And while there is a huge cry of "Just ally a Farseer", actual instances of that have been fairly low because you're forced to bring in a weak troop as well to hard counter one army and not gain much versus other, currently stronger, armies.

they arent army specific with half of armies taking a SW allied rune priest.

As for the farseer, my DE never leave home without eldrad now. rangers/pathfinders are great in 6th, you just dont want all of your troops to be them.

Warlocks are characters in guardianand wraithguard squads. I believe all squads composed entirely of characters (nobs, paladins, warlocks) were erattad to NOT be characters. Im positive for the 1st two and im betting on the 3rd.

Eldar allies bring jetbike troops which is something that only eldar really can do. Last turn 48" turbo across the map can be clutch. "weak troops" is generally true, but in this case you are bringing a lot of utility in one jetbike squad in addition to the farseer. In almost every single tourney results i have seen so far there have been 60-90% of the top 10 with eldar or SW allies. You can say it doesnt happen but in a large portion of competitive metas you would be wrong.

You arent just shutting down "one army". You shut down eldar, nids, SW, IG (pskyer battle squads, weaken resolve, psychic shreak), GK, and all those who take psyker allies. Pretty damn good deal while giving one unit reroll to hit and a good troop choice for 140 points

zephoid wrote:
Warlocks are characters in guardianand wraithguard squads. I believe all squads composed entirely of characters (nobs, paladins, warlocks) were erattad to NOT be characters. Im positive for the 1st two and im betting on the 3rd.

Check the FAQ, Warlocks were not included in the Nob / Paladin (entirely justified) nerf, presumably they flew under the radar because they only have one wound. So enjoy it whilst it lasts!

They aren't good because you pay a fortune for a unit that if you go second your in trouble. If your unlucky and your opponent has first turn with a decent shooting army he can decimate your council before they can cast their psychic power buffs. This is a problem with any psychic unit but especially ones that costs as much as a council.

They are indeed quite a fearsome unit, if used correctly by an intelligent player.

Check out Son of Adam's battle reports (links below), where he pretty much drops the council beat down on some rather competitive armies, and proves how useful this unit can be (of course fully kitted out, all bells and whistles and two farseers). If they can get invisibility and fortune up, while throwing out doom and misfortune, they're boss mode.

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/474972.page#4784764

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/471348.page

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/468989.page

What would a heldrake bale flamer do to a seer council? AP3 with no cover saves allowed? Heldrakes are pretty cheap.

I'm not sure if they get a decent enough invulnerable save to matter. I guess you could take a DE with a shadow field in the unit. That would probably be the only way for them to tank damage. But then you better watch your positioning, he can't tank from both sides at once.

They have 4++ rune armor with rerolls from fortune. The only real way to deal with seer council is torrent or tar pit, I think. Quality of shot means nothing to them. If one could assault them with DC or berserkers, that's probably the fastest way to kill them.

Martel732 wrote:
They have 4++ rune armor with rerolls from fortune. The only real way to deal with seer council is torrent or tar pit, I think. Quality of shot means nothing to them. If one could assault them with DC or berserkers, that's probably the fastest way to kill them.

assaulting them with terminators will fix them in place, as they are unlikely to be able to kill terminators. Also the 4++ reroll fails 25% of the time

assaulting them with things with a ton of attacks might take them down. but the 3+ rerollable fails only 11% of the time

Peppering them with bolters or other small arms can work but again, the 3+ rerollable only fails 11% of the time.

Usually the best option is to kill the thing that DOESNT have fortune.

I guess the seer council is the one thing that lightning claws still have utility against But I can guarantee they don't give a gak about a helldrake, or any other flyer for that matter.

Oh, and BA can use FNP terminators for extra tar-pitiness.

Well if you ally them with DE and joined by baron sathonyx they get hit and run... so tar pitting them isn't an option anymore. Plus they get a ++2/++2 save up front.

Oh and baron has grenades so that means that you get to attack into cover.