Lets keep track shall we?

With the exception of the Luna Wolves, no chapter to that point had conquered more worlds, quicker and left them in better shape than the Ultramarines.
Despite being completely surprised by the Word Bearers in their treachery and the Word Bearers having scores (More than any other Chapter) of Daemons.....Guilliman whips them.
Not only does he defeat them but still has sufficient strength to come streaming for Terra....which Horus hears about, craps his terminator armor, lowers his shields and we know the rest.
After all that? While Dorn and the others throw temper tantrums? He writes the Codex Astartes and starts retaking Imperial worlds.
Does he stop there? Nope, he kills another Primarch in a duel and bombards their planet.


Face it, Roboute was the man.

I agree. He's the guy that basically saved the IoM after the Heresy and made sure that if future events unfolded where others betray the Emperor, they would not be as catastrophic as the Horus Heresy.

Roboute +1

Hear hear!

There's a lot of "playa hatas" out there, but anyone with an eye for talent and style knows who the real pimp daddy among the Primarchs is.

Monster Rain wrote:Hear hear!

There's a lot of "playa hatas" out there, but anyone with an eye for talent and style knows who the real pimp daddy among the Primarchs is.

Fulgrim?

Hell no.

That emo tranny got what was coming to him.

All things fairly, pushed aside all the trash talk about ultrasmurfs and their poster boyness, Guilliman was, next to the Emperor the most tactically gifted mind Humanity has ever produced (alright Creed comes close but hey, whaddya gonna do?)

I'll give him his props for his long list accomplishments and keeping a thriving empire in his wake even almost 10,000 years after he "died"

In my opinion he was a little pompous but I guess it comes with the territory.

I'll never forget the time Roboute Guilliman challenged a greater daemon of Tzeentch to a chess match, and, after 40 days of intellectual and tactical sparring, the smoke from the awesome battle cleared leaving Roboute holding the daemon's king piece. "Looks like someone needs to change their strategy." He said and left the room.

okay maybe he didn't do all that but you know he would have if he had to. XD

Monster Rain wrote:Hell no.

That emo tranny got what was coming to him.

I believe you mean gave Guilliman what was coming to him

battle Brother Lucifer wrote:

Monster Rain wrote:Hell no.

That emo tranny got what was coming to him.

I believe you mean gave Guilliman what was coming to him

Fulgrim didn't do it, Daemon Did! Your blaming the victim!!

DA's Forever wrote:

battle Brother Lucifer wrote:

Monster Rain wrote:Hell no.

That emo tranny got what was coming to him.

I believe you mean gave Guilliman what was coming to him

Fulgrim didn't do it, Daemon Did! Your blaming the victim!!

No, Daemon killed Mannus. Fulgrim gave in and wasted rowboat.

+1 to space smurfs. the only chapter i would play haha.

WARORK93 wrote:
I'll never forget the time Roboute Guilliman challenged a greater daemon of Tzeentch to a chess match, and, after 40 days of intellectual and tactical sparring, the smoke from the awesome battle cleared leaving Roboute holding the daemon's king piece. "Looks like someone needs to change their strategy." He said and left the room.

Pardon my ignorance, but is that really in the fluff? I'm assuming you're joking, but if not that's awesome.

AgeOfEgos wrote:Lets keep track shall we?

With the exception of the Luna Wolves, no chapter to that point had conquered more worlds, quicker and left them in better shape than the Ultramarines.
Despite being completely surprised by the Word Bearers in their treachery and the Word Bearers having scores (More than any other Chapter) of Daemons.....Guilliman whips them.
Not only does he defeat them but still has sufficient strength to come streaming for Terra....which Horus hears about, craps his terminator armor, lowers his shields and we know the rest.
After all that? While Dorn and the others throw temper tantrums? He writes the Codex Astartes and starts retaking Imperial worlds.
Does he stop there? Nope, he kills another Primarch in a duel and bombards their planet.


Face it, Roboute was the man.

Wait, what? The Ultras absorbed the remainders of the sanctioned legions, and thus had the most marines. He basically got his ass kicked by the Word Bearers, despite outnumbering them. Horus crapped himself because the Wolves were descending on him (as he copped to being afraid of them in Prospero Burns, whereas he hasn't mentioned the turncoa- I mean Ultramarines at all (because he knew that if he won, Gulliman would make a deal and join the winning side, unlike Russ who would kick his ace no matter what. Then he wrote the codex astartes, dismantling the Imperium's ability to logistically support a real war of conquest, and rather than trying to persuade his brothers that it was a good idea, he was willing to start another civil war unless everyone did as his egotistical self demanded. Then he proceeded to fight the Alpha Legion, maybe killing one of their two primarchs, then get whupped so badly by the rest of the legion that he ran away and bombarded the planet in a fit of cowardice (also known as normal behavior, when dealing with the Bluemarines). Then he died. Hero? Hah. He was the great vacillator out of the primarchs. Dorn, Khan, Sanguinius, Russ, even Ferrus Manus's doomed heroism put Gulliman to shame with their passion, pride, and drive for the Imperium's destiny. Gulliman was a petty kingdom builder who cared more for his own glory than that of their father.

If the first post in this thread was on Facebook, I would "like" it. Guilliman is the most under-appreciated Primarch there was. Sanguinus had a more heroic death, and Dorn was fairly bad-ass (not to mention wise enough to throw in the towel v. Guillman) but nobody else is even close. People can talk all day about Kurze or Magnus or Russ, but they were all traitors and cry babies.

Dorn threw in the towel to prevent a civil war Gulliman was more than willing to prosecute to stoke his own ego, because he was a better man. And Russ was a traitor and a cry baby? The hilarity of that statement exceeds my ability to express things using words.

Bromsy wrote:Dorn threw in the towel to prevent a civil war Gulliman was more than willing to prosecute to stoke his own ego, because he was a better man. And Russ was a traitor and a cry baby? The hilarity of that statement exceeds my ability to express things using words.

That is more like your αngle of view.

Bromsy wrote:Dorn threw in the towel to prevent a civil war Gulliman was more than willing to prosecute to stoke his own ego, because he was a better man. And Russ was a traitor and a cry baby? The hilarity of that statement exceeds my ability to express things using words.

Hear, hear!

I praise him the same way I praise a succesfull police officer who neglects and beats his family.

I would rank Alpharius ahead of Guilliman for tactical acumen.

tis true that Gulliman was the tactically brilliant Primarch... well except for The Lion... oh and Horus... and Alpharius... oh I see, YOU meant STRATEGICALLY.. well nope not top dog there either, maybe Logistics? yep thats him.

Btw im not a Gulliman hater, check some of my previous posts. I think, next to Horus, he was historically the most important Primarch.


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tis true that Gulliman was the most tactically brilliant Primarch... well except for The Lion... oh and Horus... and Alpharius... oh I see, YOU meant STRATEGICALLY.. well nope not top dog there either, maybe Logistics? yep thats him.

Btw im not a Gulliman hater, check some of my previous posts. I think, next to Horus, he was historically the most important Primarch.

Face it guys, you all just secretly wish you were ultramarines

Roboute and his Ultramarines are awesome IMO, but they are too rigid in thier operation, thats the only downside of thier glory and awesomeness.

I just don't the fact the ultras popped in at the end of the Heresy and said "hey guys lets make a book of tactics and rules!" even though the only fighting they did was nowhere near Terra and was more on their front doorstep. Besides that itself shows Horus was smarter since he recognised the ultras as the biggest opponent and threw 3 other armies at them to keep them busy.

Each Primarch embodies an aspect of the Emperor. guilliman embodies his visions of utopia.

Curse the hated ultrasmurfs! Ok, guilliman was tactically astute but he destroyed the imperium by bending his knee to beareucrats who feared the strength of the astartes legions. Word bearers FTW!

Mr Nobody wrote:I praise him the same way I praise a succesfull police officer who neglects and beats his family.

ROFL!








But no srsly though I give Guilliman 2 thumbs high

WARORK93 wrote:Guilliman was, next to the Emperor the most tactically gifted mind Humanity has ever produced

alpha legions primarch(s)?
the lion?
horus?

papa smurf was best at logistics not tactics
and having 3 legions worth of troops may explain his conquest rate

I think the best quality he exemplified was in leadership. He didn't simply conquer worlds, he won devoted citizen/worlds to the Imperial might...and led an impressive array of logistics.

I take disagreement with your first post:

\Noone knows if rowboat actually killed alpharius.

Index Astartes IV wrote:It should be noted, however, that Alpharius's death is still considered suspect even by the Ultramarines, and he may still be at large.2

Even if alpharius is dead Omegon may not be & the Alphas did have TWO primarchs.

Guilliman FTW!!! He's Awesome, period.

Although the vast majority of gamers hate the Ultra's for GW promotion of them we have to admit that he was a pretty damn good man.

it bothers me that people say that the Ultra's did nothing in the Heresy.. well appart from taking on the second biggest legion, Oh AND fighting out off a trap set by Horus and the WB, they didnt ignore the cry for help at Terra, they were fighting for there lives

AlmightyWalrus wrote:

Bromsy wrote:Dorn threw in the towel to prevent a civil war Gulliman was more than willing to prosecute to stoke his own ego, because he was a better man. And Russ was a traitor and a cry baby? The hilarity of that statement exceeds my ability to express things using words.

Hear, hear!

Hear hear! X2

alpha legions primarch(s)?
the lion?
horus?

papa smurf was best at logistics not tactics
and having 3 legions worth of troops may explain his conquest rate

ehhhhh...... I guess the question of tactical ability is up to whoever is talking, and having 3 legions worth of troops is exaggerating i think. Also logistics and tactics coincide so it really an argument of the name.

Pardon my ignorance, but is that really in the fluff? I'm assuming you're joking, but if not that's awesome.

try reading my entire post:

okay maybe he didn't do all that but you know he would have if he had to. XD

Okay final verdict for me: Do I think he was the prevailing factor in the Imperium's victory of the HH? No.

Do I think he and his marines deserve praise for the battles they won and the impressively good job they did setting up not-so-grimdark planets? Yes.

Do I think he was an arrogant and egotistical, yet tactically sound and gallantly ambitious primarch. Hellz yes.

Not my fav primarch by far, but he was stalwartly loyal and was there for the Imperium when it needed a hand. Despite all the arguments against him he deserves more than just being called and arrogant

Guilliman is more of a: Im gonna wait till everyone is screwed except me so I can rush in and save the day! kinda guy.

I respect him, but I don't like him. Like all great men he will forever be devisive, and probably only because of his significance does he create such emnity and breadth of opinion.

Still, I can't help wondering that if he was so good, why wasn't he warmaster? I'm not trying to be flippant, if there's a canon/fluff reason please let me know.

Reanimator wrote:I respect him, but I don't like him. Like all great men he will forever be devisive, and probably only because of his significance does he create such emnity and breadth of opinion.

Still, I can't help wondering that if he was so good, why wasn't he warmaster? I'm not trying to be flippant, if there's a canon/fluff reason please let me know.

Because Horus was Daddy's favorite.

SO mr Hero wanted to start another civil war just so people could follow his rule. He wanted to do this against the very Space Marines that fought tooth and nail on Terra. Knowing that it couldn't stand another civil war. He spent soo much time planning up the stupidly rigid rules he forgot to instill everything the Emperor taught them about spirits and such...odd of him to leave that stuff out. Now Marines pray to their tanks to start. Oh and he still left the IoM in the hands of useless fools just like the "traitors" said. The emperor was a fool. He had nothing in place for heirs if he died. He constantly lied to his own children. So The big bumbling fool got replaced by Big blue bumbling fool.

AgeofEgos is spot-on.

Guilliman had the opportunity to do what Horus failed to do: usurp the Emperor and rule the galaxy. But he chose not to. He assumed power to fortify the Imperium through it's darkest crises and then laid that power down. This moderation is the very heart of Codex Astartes. You will notice that there has been no second Horus Heresy in ten thousand years. As to the "civil war" that sexiesthero refers to: in my opinion, the real issue was whether Dorn would fall to Chaos in his despair over the Emperor's enthronement. Thanks to the firm and moderate temper of Roboute Guilliman, war was averted and Dorn did not proceed further down the dark path he was on.

Would you follow Roboute Guilliman out of love? Perhaps not. In that respect, he was no Horus. But you would follow him and you would do it because it is the rational thing to do.

Hmn. You really can't look at strategy and tactics without looking at logistics.

If you look at historical figures, some of the greatest generals of all time were also the best logisticians. Alexander the Great had a keen understanding of logistics which allowed him to get as far as he did. You can win fights and be a tactically superior but unless you have a grasp on logistics you won't get far. Take Hannibal. Tactically and strategically one of the best there was was but his logistics plan ultimately led to his demise and eventual failure despite being able to pull off some brilliant victories.

So as far as Gulliman was concerned, you could compare him to Alexander the Great in that, he conquered but left those conquered better off than they were. He represented that part of the Emperor that wanted to bring light to the Imperium. Gulliman understood what the true role of the Astartes was going to be. Yes they started off as crusading legions to reconquer the Galaxy, but what do you think the emperor was going to do with all those marines once the crusade was done? I think Gulliman understood the plan better than anyone else and that the Emperor would have broken the legions up regardless. Gulliman above all others was a civilisation builder, and likely would have played a vital role in the Imperium's Golden Age while the more brutish types like Russ and Angron would have been relegated to the roles of security guards.

Manchu wrote:AgeofEgos is spot-on.

Guilliman had the opportunity to do what Horus failed to do: usurp the Emperor and rule the galaxy. But he chose not to. He assumed power to fortify the Imperium through it's darkest crises and then laid that power down. This moderation is the very heart of Codex Astartes. You will notice that there has been no second Horus Heresy in ten thousand years. As to the "civil war" that sexiesthero refers to: in my opinion, the real issue was whether Dorn would fall to Chaos in his despair over the Emperor's enthronement. Thanks to the firm and moderate temper of Roboute Guilliman, war was averted and Dorn did not proceed further down the dark path he was on.

Would you follow Roboute Guilliman out of love? Perhaps not. In that respect, he was no Horus. But you would follow him and you would do it because it is the rational thing to do.

Hear hear, we see perfectly eye to eye on this! He certainly had a better opportunity immediately post heresy/unification to remain the Caesar....yet chose not to.

Crantor wrote:Hmn. You really can't look at strategy and tactics without looking at logistics.

If you look at historical figures, some of the greatest generals of all time were also the best logisticians. Alexander the Great had a keen understanding of logistics which allowed him to get as far as he did. You can win fights and be a tactically superior but unless you have a grasp on logistics you won't get far. Take Hannibal. Tactically and strategically one of the best there was was but his logistics plan ultimately led to his demise and eventual failure despite being able to pull off some brilliant victories.

So as far as Gulliman was concerned, you could compare him to Alexander the Great in that, he conquered but left those conquered better off than they were. He represented that part of the Emperor that wanted to bring light to the Imperium. Gulliman understood what the true role of the Astartes was going to be. Yes they started off as crusading legions to reconquer the Galaxy, but what do you think the emperor was going to do with all those marines once the crusade was done? I think Gulliman understood the plan better than anyone else and that the Emperor would have broken the legions up regardless. Gulliman above all others was a civilisation builder, and likely would have played a vital role in the Imperium's Golden Age while the more brutish types like Russ and Angron would have been relegated to the roles of security guards.

Absolutely spot on. Take Eisenhower for example during WW2...while he didn't charge the beaches or take any ground on a front.....I consider him the premier general of WW2 (Yep, over Patton). Take the Battle of Bulge for example and look at the logistic avalanche Eisenhower put into place! Guilliman had that in spades.

Gulliman couldn't have usurped the Emperor. He wasn't Horus. He lacked charisma, none of the other Primarchs really liked him, and any of them really capable of disloyalty had joined Horus. He would have been facing at the least the Wolves and the Fists, who would have none of his crap. If you want guys with loyalty and conviction, look at the Primarchs of those legions.

Russ let himself be relegated to the role the Emperor needed him to fulfill, regardless of how it alienated him from his erstwhile brothers. And I don't understand the idea that Dorn might fall to chaos. He had the greatest and noblest ideals of the Primarchs. He was willing to lose the Heresy rather than win it by becoming as bad as Horus. Was he depressed after the Emperor bought it? Yeah. Was he prone to self recrimination, yeah - because he wanted to save everyone, and always thought he could do better. Turn to chaos because of that? Hells to the no. If the Blood Angels can last 10000 years as rage filled blood drinking psychos and not fall to chaos, the Emperor's Praetorian would never.

Bromsy wrote:Gulliman couldn't have usurped the Emperor. He wasn't Horus. He lacked charisma, none of the other Primarchs really liked him, and any of them really capable of disloyalty had joined Horus. He would have been facing at the least the Wolves and the Fists, who would have none of his crap. If you want guys with loyalty and conviction, look at the Primarchs of those legions.

Russ let himself be relegated to the role the Emperor needed him to fulfill, regardless of how it alienated him from his erstwhile brothers. And I don't understand the idea that Dorn might fall to chaos. He had the greatest and noblest ideals of the Primarchs. He was willing to lose the Heresy rather than win it by becoming as bad as Horus. Was he depressed after the Emperor bought it? Yeah. Was he prone to self recrimination, yeah - because he wanted to save everyone, and always thought he could do better. Turn to chaos because of that? Hells to the no. If the Blood Angels can last 10000 years as rage filled blood drinking psychos and not fall to chaos, the Emperor's Praetorian would never.

I would say Sang was meant to be the "Noble" manifestation of the Emperor in form of Primarch....I would say Dorn would be more resolute while Russ was savagery.

Guilliman was dedication/leadership imo...

Ultramarine might as well be Rational Strategy marine

Dorn locked himself up in a box designed to inflict massive amounts of pain and, while enjoying that (Slaanesh would be proud), came up with the great idea of destroying his legion in a pointless last stand against Pertaburo. There's penance and then there's insanity. Dorn was on the edge. Would he have gotten down on his knees before the RuinousPowers a la Lorgar? No, not a chance. Would he have brokered deals with them like Horus and Magnus? Certainly not at first. But -- as people seem to forget -- Chaos does not need your consent to use you and work through you. In First Heretic, Lorgar punches Guilliman in the face and knocks him down. Guilliman just gets back up. No snarky insult, no punching the freak back -- the Emperor's will had been accomplished and Guilliman was content with that even given this affront to his personal dignity. (Contrast this to the incident between Russ and the Lion.) This kind of attitude is what ultimately brought Dorn to his senses (mostly, there are the Black Templars after all . . .) regarding the Codex. Don't get me wrong -- there is no question that Dorn was fanatically loyal to the Emperor. But that isn't enough to save someone from Chaos or even from themselves.

Manchu wrote:Dorn locked himself up in a box designed to inflict massive amounts of pain and, while enjoying that (Slaanesh would be proud), came up with the great idea of destroying his legion in a pointless last stand against Pertaburo. There's penance and then there's insanity. Dorn was on the edge. Would he have gotten down on his knees before the RuinousPowers a la Lorgar? No, not a chance. Would he have brokered deals with them like Horus and Magnus? Certainly not at first. But -- as people seem to forget -- Chaos does not need your consent to use you and work through you. In First Heretic, Lorgar punches Guilliman in the face and knocks him down. Guilliman just gets back up. No snarky insult, no punching the freak back -- the Emperor's will had been accomplished and Guilliman was content with that even given this affront to his personal dignity. (Contrast this to the incident between Russ and the Lion.) This kind of attitude is what ultimately brought Dorn to his senses (mostly, there are the Black Templars after all . . .) regarding the Codex. Don't get me wrong -- there is no question that Dorn was fanatically loyal to the Emperor. But that isn't enough to save someone from Chaos or even from themselves.

+1 and if there were an elusive Like feature, this would get a click.

AoEs: You may enjoy these threads --

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/271354.page

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/249758.page

the main reason he coquered the most planets was pretty much purely down to the fact he had the most mariens. period.
Fair enough that most of those worlds did pretty well but Horus had to take care of planets that thought it was Terra and a world educated by eldar that forsaw Horuses fall.
During the heresy most the Loyalist Legions were decimated before Terra was engaged.
ONly the smurfs, Blood Angels and the Imperial Fists were able to fight.
well the angels and Fists were at Terra. why whats that again. Oh thats right the Ultramarines were unable to do Jack please do not try to get around the word filter because one legion headed them off.
Sanguinus gave his life in a duel which injured Horus enabling the emperor to strike him down.
Dorn Held the imperium together then after the chaotic forces ran for the eye, yet then Gulliman then decided to show up and started bossing around th suvives, to quote some nam veyterans 'You weren't there man, you weren't there!'
He did it for some ego preening.
He then restricts the size the Marines can been and splits the legions into relatively small fightning forces. The only reason was that he did this as 60% of surviving mariens were his and therefore would follow his rules. Now the Imperium has slipped into a decline and is on the verge of colapse as the Adeptus Astartes is spred too thin and can't handle the now munting pressure from all forces.
The Ultramarines would abadon their chapter planet except for one company and relied upon the 2 Angel chapters that helped clean up Ultammar cause calgar decided to sit in space

Hmm, explain again how when, pre-Codex, Guilliman had by far the most troops directly under his command, dividing them makes him more powerful?

If anything, Guilliman had the most to lose from implementing the Codex. It clearly was not about ego.

Pardon my chaotic nature, but I don't think being in the right place at the right time out of good fortune of where your home planet is counts as tactical genius, and being an overzealous rigid bean counting logistics freak with a knack for dividing or multiplying everything by 10 makes him about as exciting as an accountant, not a warrior.

"my lord, we can hold the landing zone with just a handful of men while the rest board the transports, let me take 6 men with some lascannons and a flamer to torch the fuel cannisters before we leave, and we can be away free."

"no, sergeant, you must take 10 battle brothers, and no flamer is to be alloted to your squad."

"but my lord, we only need 6!"

"6 does not factor into 10 sergeant, and it says here on page 45732.87 of my book that Devastator squads are to be equipped with heavy weapons. Nowhere does it mention flamers."

"oh. that makes sense my lord."

"carry on sergeant."

Tell that last bit to Bernard Montgomery.

Rowboat Girlyman's Ultrasmurfs have been the poster-boys of 40k for a decade, despite being the most boring of all possible playable factions.

He is also a gigantic Marty Stu.

Is there a Godwin's Law analogy for Mary Sue accusations? If not, why not?

Because you can't lose an argument by saying things that are true.

I'm willing to accept that Rowboat himself isn't actually a Marty Stu, but the Ultramarines are. Look at, like... ALL of the lore surrounding the Space Marines in 40k; everyone is either like the Ultramarines, wants to be like the Ultramarines, follows the book set forth by the Ultramarines, who do all sorts of awesome stuff because they are Ultramarines and they rule over a realm named Ultramar by someone who wanted to try and retcon the fact their name was coined in Rogue Trader as a stupid pun (they were Ultra-Marines and they wore blue armour, herp). Plus they have seven characters in Codex: Space Marines whereas other Chapters who are immeasurably more awesome get one.

Then, of course, there's that whole Superfriends thing, which never fails to annoy.

The fact that Mephiston can walk through the entire HQ and Elites section of a Superfriends army whistling a jaunty tune does go some way to offset the crystallised Mary Sueitis of C:SM.

I just had to check what that law is. Cool idea!

AgeOfEgos wrote:Not only does he defeat them but still has sufficient strength to come streaming for Terra....which Horus hears about, craps his terminator armor, lowers his shields and we know the rest.

I don't dislike Guilliman or anything but weren't the dark angels coming as well?

And if the 'Battle for the abbyss' is to be believed it was an ultramarine a word bearer and a space wolf that saved the ultramarines

But seriously, his saving of Dorn and the fists from the fortress of pain (i believe) was kick-ass

@L_I:

So you're saying that Ultramarines suck because they are too awesome?

Don't get me wrong, I understand the point you're making. They're not space werewolves or space vampires or space emos or space crusaders. They're just Space Marines. There is clearly nothing cool about Space Marines, right?

Sure, they get a lot of attention in the rules. Of those SCs, however, how many get used in competitive lists -- you know, as opposed to Mephiston, Vulkan, and Njal (and others to a lesser extent)? Or --actually -- that doesn't really matter since this is a thread about fluff not crunch.

Perhaps you just mean "GW says they are cool, therefore they are not"? Fair deuce, I guess. I can't take that argument seriously but I'm certain many will.


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Torin the Wayfarer wrote:I don't dislike Guilliman or anything but weren't the dark angels coming as well?

No, but the Wolves were. Guilliman and Russ together is the last thing I'd want to face. Horus apparently felt the same way.

Torin the Wayfarer wrote:

AgeOfEgos wrote:Not only does he defeat them but still has sufficient strength to come streaming for Terra....which Horus hears about, craps his terminator armor, lowers his shields and we know the rest.

I don't dislike Guilliman or anything but weren't the dark angels coming as well?

And if the 'Battle for the abbyss' is to be believed it was an ultramarine a word bearer and a space wolf that saved the ultramarines

But seriously, his saving of Dorn and the fists from the fortress of pain (i believe) was kick-ass

There is a lot of fluff that lends to the conspiracy theory that the Dark Angels were waiting to see which side was going to win before coming to whoever's aid. The Ultras were heading to relieve Earth no question about it. Horus knew that the Ultras were a serious threat, so serious that he couldn't trust Lorgar to deal with them He sent Kor Phaeron and the entire Word Bearers to deal with them.

Manchu wrote:

Torin the Wayfarer wrote:I don't dislike Guilliman or anything but weren't the dark angels coming as well?

No, but the Wolves were. Guilliman and Russ together is the last thing I'd want to face. Horus apparently felt the same way.

I knew it was one or the other, i would hate to fight angry wolves AND russ

Manchu wrote:@L_I:

So you're saying that Ultramarines suck because they are too awesome?

Don't get me wrong, I understand the point you're making. They're not space werewolves or space vampires or space emos or space crusaders. They're just Space Marines. There is clearly nothing cool about Space Marines, right?

Sure, they get a lot of attention in the rules. Of those SCs, however, how many get used in competitive lists -- you know, as opposed to Mephiston, Vulkan, and Njal (and others to a lesser extent)? Or --actually -- that doesn't really matter since this is a thread about fluff not crunch.

Perhaps you just mean "GW says they are cool, therefore they are not"? Fair deuce, I guess. I can't take that argument seriously but I'm certain many will.


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Torin the Wayfarer wrote:I don't dislike Guilliman or anything but weren't the dark angels coming as well?

No, but the Wolves were. Guilliman and Russ together is the last thing I'd want to face. Horus apparently felt the same way.

This post made me laugh a lot, and also I agree with it totally, especially the part about not wanting to face Russ and Guilliman.


The question after the Heresy was over was "How can we make sure this doesn't happen again?" The answer, Guilliman proposed was a better organization of the Space marine legions and breaking them down so the corruption of a single or multiple factions didn't ever have the power to nearly wipe out the Imperium ever again. The Codex was a safeguard against another Heresy.

Pride? that might have something to do with the near "Civil war" that almost occurred afterwords, although I agree with whats been said before in saying that it wasn't Guilliman's pride. It was more likely to be Russ' and Dorn's since they obviously didn't want to break down their mighty legions into chapters and rewrok them which was the smart thing to do.

Dorn pouted in his room, and Russ just refused to cooperate, the results of the restructuring is why we have a galaxy spanning empire that's lasted for this long without a living Emperor.

Manchu wrote:Is there a Godwin's Law analogy for Mary Sue accusations? If not, why not?

I was about to propose one. ARGHH!

Paula Smith's Law?

TBF, Russ may have had very good reasons to ultimately opt-out of Codex adherence. Canis Helix and all that . . .

But let's look at the Badab War for a bit. What happens when a charismatic Chapter Master leads a rebellion of several chapters? Tragedy, to be sure -- but no siege of Terra, no crippling of the Impeirum from which ten thousand years is not enough to recover. Cirticism of Codex Astartes flies in the face of the (fictional) facts. Can it work for lycanthropic or terminally insane Space Marines? Maybe not. But they only make up a very small percentage of all Space Marines any way.

Manchu wrote:@L_I:

So you're saying that Ultramarines suck because they are too awesome?

No, I'm saying they suck because they're a Mary Sue.

Let's look at the Imperial Fists in comparison. Their fluff is full of the same Hollywood-grade face-punching tough-guy-itis and condensed awesome as the Ultramarines', so why don't you ever see Lysander on posters? Because the Ultramarines define Space Marines in 40k. Why? Because Rowboat wrote the book. Why? Because he was an Ultramarine, and they're the greatest of all the Space Marines.

Why? Because I like them and I write the fluff, now stop asking questions.

Yawn.

Don't get me wrong, I understand the point you're making. They're not space werewolves or space vampires or space emos or space crusaders. They're just Space Marines. There is clearly nothing cool about Space Marines, right?

Obviously you don't understand the point I'm making.

Would you feel less slighted if I told you I found the steering of the Space Wolves' fluff away from 'Viking' and down the road towards 'furry fandom' to be disturbing? Or that I actually used to run a Codex: Spess Mehrens army before I switched to the Yiff Brigade? Granted it was a Biker army, but it was still drawn from Rowboat's Codex. Technically, anyway.

How the greatest of all the Primarchs failed to realise Bike Squads were awesome Troops units I don't know, but apparently he did. Have fun with your Combat Squads in their Shaky vehicles, Rowboat!

Sure, they get a lot of attention in the rules. Of those SCs, however, how many get used in competitive lists -- you know, as opposed to Mephiston, Vulkan, and Njal (and others to a lesser extent)? Or --actually -- that doesn't really matter since this is a thread about fluff not crunch.

Njal? In MY competetive list? It's less likely than Tigurius or Sicarius or that Scout dude who can plant a Missile into your vehicles with BS6 certainty each and every turn from his 3+ cover save bunker of doom. How much does that guy cost compared to Narf Stormfailure, Lord Of Not Going Second? Is it 'a lot less'? It's a lot less, sin't it? I sure wish Njal let me put a guaranteed Missile into something every turn he was on the board. Then he might actually be useful, as opposed to 'very bad'.

If it's about fluff not crunch, then how do you explain the Ultrasmurfs having so much of the Codex dedicated to slurping them? Why do they have so many SCs? Do the other Chapters just have fewer characters worthy of note? Perhaps they're not as good at being Space Marines as the Ultrasmurfs? Is that fluff, that the Ultrasmurfs are actually better than the rest of the Chapters? That makes baby Lysander cry.

Perhaps you just mean "GW says they are cool, therefore they are not"? Fair deuce, I guess. I can't take that argument seriously but I'm certain many will.

GW doesn't, though. What do you think sells more models; boring bookish super-guy in blue armour who does things by the book, or crazy psychotic super-vampire in red armour who glues the book's pages together, sharpens the edges, then uses it to stab you in the eye because he has gone insane and thinks he is his own Primarch? Put either of these dudes on a poster and kids will wander into the shop, but give them a choice and they're going to buy the red guy's army.

It's not the fact that GW says they're cool; it's the fact some staffer decided he really liked the bookish blue guy and then wrote all the fluff accordingly. They were slated to be the whipping boys, hence the detour away from Terra during the Heresy, but suddenly someone likes them so now they're THE Space Marines, the only Chapter allowed to rule it's own realm, the guys everyone else wants to be like, and wakka wakka wakka. Oh, and their Primarch is the only one to have 'survived' the Heresy intact, and now sits in a stasis field on Macragge with his wounds miraculously healing whilst the Emperor's life wanes and his Golden Bog falls victim to the ravages of time.

Rowboat Girlyman; the next Emprah? I can see it, and it looks like fail. Maybe he IS a Marty Stu after all. Time will tell.

I'm sooooo glad I'm a Guard player

L_I: I think you're confused. What does the fluff have to do with which units are good or bad in any given edition of the rules? Also the blue bookish guys -- until just this past year -- outsold all other GW products combined. Now, I grant that they could be painted red or light blue instead of ultramarine (yeh I get it) but having one painted blue on ALL the packages -- something tremendously if irrationally offensive to you -- has not hurt sales.

Manchu wrote:L_I: I think you're confused. What does the fluff have to do with which units are good or bad in any given edition of the rules?

So fluff and crunch are completely seperate, then? No, they're not. Considering each and every unit in each and every Codex is designed, built and balanced around it's backstory I'd say the answer to your question is actually 'a lot'.

You can consider the fluff to be 'just a hook' if you like, but the fact is for the game system to have any depth beyond two people rolling dice to determine what happens to some pieces of plastic the backstory has to have some bearing on the factions. Would people still play 40k if GW decided the game was to have no depth beyond this? They would, and not only that but the Codices would become cheaper to print and buy because they wouldn't have 40-odd pages of garbage at the start. Not to mention the game designers would fall to their knees and praise the now-defunct Emperor because they no longer had to consider fluff when writing up special rules; Fire Warriors would be bad in CC to balance the fact they are good at shooting, not because the Tau are a physically weak race who rely on alien mercenaries for close combat despite their advanced technology.

Thing is, while some would still play it, a lot would stop, and the ability to attract new customers would be severely dented. Tell a kid he gets to play-pretend he is the commander of some super-soldiers fighting to save the human race from it's enemies and he buys models and paints and comes to the gaming club to defeat the evil Tyranids and elves. Tell him he is pitting his wits against other players in a game of strategy and luck, and he gets a Wii instead.

It's the fact that the fluff is so important to the game that makes the Ultra-Marys so annoying.

Also the blue bookish guys -- until just this past year -- outsold all other GW products combined. Now, I grant that they could be painted red or light blue instead of ultramarine (yeh I get it) but having one painted blue on ALL the packages -- something tremendously if irrationally offensive to you -- has not hurt sales.

I didn't say I found the packaging offensive. I said the Ultramarines were a Mary Sue, and that Rowboat and his Smurfs had had far too much recognition in the fluff already. Dunno how you managed to extrapolate that; mayhap you're trying to straw-man me?

As far as Space Marines being GW's best-selling product... You could probably put a picture of a big turd on every Space Marine product's box and they'd still outstrip everything else in terms of sales. Why? Because Space Marine kit is the most ubiquitous in the entire game system. If I buy a Rhino I can paint it black and white; then I can use it to transport my C:SM squads, or my Sisters of Battle squads, or my IST squads, or my Space Wolves squads, or my Chaos Space Marine squads, or whatever. Alternatively I can cut bits off it and call it a Trukk. Tactical Marines can be used for anything from Smurfs to kit-bashed Thousand Sons, and when you consider that the Tactical Marines sprue has more and better bitz on it than pretty much any other MEQ sprue the sense in buying one of those over a Thousand Sons/ Grey Hunters/ Chaos Space Marines box becomes clear.

It's not a sign that everyone loves Ultramarines, it's a sign that everyone needs Space Marine kit. The fact the guys on the box are blue is a sign that Matt Ward likes pushing his Mary Sue.

I dislike guilman alot, mainly beacuse he was a right d***head to lorgar, who punched him in the face. Guilman was so annoying he did'nt need to say anything and he still p***ed of lorgar. He had one of those faces that is just fun to punch (acording to lorgar) and he was reallly arogant when lorgar was being warned by the emprorer. Also he punched alpharius (the guy who saved humanity itself) and alpharius thought guilman hated him and ran off. In short guilman is a daddies boy who fought with all his brothers and was really arogant when he got away with it.

When did he punch Alpharius?

I think you're getting your Primarchs mixed up!

Also, this thread has come up multiple times but yes, Roboute is quite awesome, and really, Ultramar is pretty much the best place to live in the 40K Galaxy - if you can get past those pesky Tyranids and the periodic Word Bearer plots...

Alpharius wrote:When did he punch Alpharius?

I think you're getting your Primarchs mixed up!

Also, this thread has come up multiple times but yes, Roboute is quite awesome, and really, Ultramar is pretty much the best place to live in the 40K Galaxy - if you can get past those pesky Tyranids and the periodic Word Bearer plots...

he got into a violent dispute with alpharius, my memory went slightly i thought he punched him (though he probably did, during they're fight) even though ultramar is nice it's not the best place to live because of the bug problem

L-I: Consider how units get better or worse between editions and you might have a more complete picture regarding how fluff and crunch interact. I'm having trouble following the rest of your argument which is starting to read like " I didnt say UM get too much attention, I said that UM get too much attention." There's only so much I can get out of this style of internet debate and, frankly, I think that point has already been reached here. As I initially said, your argument seems silly to me and disconnected from the fluff itself (focusing instead on some kind of marketing criticism) but I know many people agree with you for the reasons you've expppressed.

Yes i'll agree that it really isn't fair to dislike the ultra marines beacuse they are the poster child and tbf they are a pretty cool chapter.

Hey I don't mind them at all, their fluff is fine. I just don't think Guilleman is really that cool a guy is all. If everybody were awesome and had no annoying quirks they would be boring characters in a story. As it stands, Ultramarines are interesting characters in a story, but not without their failings (like an obsession with detail and rigid worship of the number 10 being mistaken for logistical genius). He isn't meant to be some uber primarch, just another primarch like the rest of them, flaws and all.

And here is the other thing people need to get.

The whole codex astartes thing. It is basically a doctrinal manual on tactics and warfare. Why do people crap on that? Guilliman breaks up the legions into chapters. guess what? you need a new way of doing business. He sets that up. Go google Marius Reforms of the Roman Army and see the seeds of the Roman Legions at their height. Marius sets the guidelines of how legions should be organised by numbers, tactic and ways of fighting. In this modern age all professional fighting forces have doctrine and follow it. Here is how you react to ambushes, here is how you should prosecute an amphibious assault, this is the formation your mechanised infantry should adopt when on the advance. If you follow the basic principles and guidelines of a defensive position, it does not matter if they are trenches, fobs or a simple hasty defense, the principles and procedures and theories you folllow remain essentially the same.

So Guilliman reforms the marines. Adopts the best possible self sufficient tactical role for the job it needs to do in a now changed imperium. Russ was in no position to take the lead. Never could never will. Although in Russ' defense his legion was probably the only one that could not fit into the codex format and he ignored it anyway. Gulliman didn't go after him for it, he pretty much left him to it because at the end of the day, the Space Wolves were no longer the force they once were, and if the reform was to prevent another heresy, Russ was unlikely due to his canine loyalty (a fact that Gulliman probably recognised) and also because there were more than enough Ultramarine successors to stop him. Dorn, although capable just didn't have the skills to hold the Imperium together. Eventually he saw the light and probably was pleased to see half his legion follow sigismund (again, it is likely that this was overlooked as their potential threat was minimal and in the end served a purpose).

As for the other legions, had it not been for the reforms of the codex astartes they would have been relegated to insignificant roles due to the immense casualties they took. the ironhands, salamanders, RavenGuard etc were essentially non players had the legions kept their original make up. The Ironhands and Ravenguard could no longer prosecute the same types of operations that legions did. So what do you do with them? Absorbing them into the stronger legions was probably a worse idea in their minds than reforming into chapters.

So the heresy ends, the Ultras retake most of what was lost. Guilliman breaks down the legions into mobile strike forces able to responds to any threat to keep the imperium together because let's face it, they were not in any position to carry on any kind of crusade with the numbers they had left. Codex marines are the standard. Bloodangels are codex marines with a secret, so are the dark angels. they pretend to follow the rules but they really practice certain things in a secret way (and frankly those two chapters have issues). The Wolves are more overt and follow their own way.

The problem being that the codex astartes is followed in a rigid, dogmatic way - it is a religious text as much as it is a military one. Gulliman moved the Imperium from a force capable of prosecuting massive wars of conquest into an almost entirely defensive entity. Was spreading out some marines for such a purpose necessary at the time? Maybe, but he personally decided that that was the only way. Even his brothers disagreed with that, and did he listen, compromise, anything? No.

If he was so damn noble and self effacing, why not break his legion down for police duty and let the others maintain the ability to actually fight a war, y'know, have the benefits of both? Because he didn't want to. He was a brat, who needed everyone to do what he wanted; with the exception of Russ, because apparently even Roboute wasn't crazy enough to pick a fight with him. As far as the idea that Dorn was acting out of pride, or that he lacked the capability of running the Imperium while Gulliman did.... lies. Lies and filth.

Dorn and the Sigilite were running the Imperium while the Emperor was working on his webway project, a task Dorn was more than equal to. I suggest you read Nemesis, if you haven't, as it clearly shows Dorn as having honest and impeccable morals, upon which he refused to compromise even in the face of destruction. He did lose his gak when the Emperor died, because y'know, it was his father, who he loved and valued. Nice how roboute was able to just carry on, as if nothing happened...

Dorn couldn`t. He did lose his mind for a bit after the heresy and the iron warriors messed him up good. that in itself should tell you that he didn`t have what it took to hold it together because he couldn`t hold himself together. i read Nemesis, values and morals aside, he really wasn`t running the imperium, he was coordinating the defense of terra. The sigilite and Constantine were really the ones running things. Dorn was an excellent Praetorian, but he was not up to running the Imperium without his father. Yes Gulliman carried on, like most people that can deal with loss and perservere.

The reality is that only a few primarchs had the skill to administer something a big as the Imperium. Horus, Gulliman and maybe the lion but even then. And as I mentioned, only the Ultras were in any shape to prosecute legion sized ops. the others were decimated in one way or the other. The Imperium was and still is crippled. they reclaimed what they lost but the ability to carry on had been neutered by the traitors.

Crantor wrote:Dorn couldn`t. He did lose his mind for a bit after the heresy and the iron warriors messed him up good. that in itself should tell you that he didn`t have what it took to hold it together because he couldn`t hold himself together. i read Nemesis, values and morals aside, he really wasn`t running the imperium, he was coordinating the defense of terra. The sigilite and Constantine were really the ones running things. Dorn was an excellent Praetorian, but he was not up to running the Imperium without his father. Yes Gulliman carried on, like most people that can deal with loss and perservere.

The reality is that only a few primarchs had the skill to administer something a big as the Imperium. Horus, Gulliman and maybe the lion but even then. And as I mentioned, only the Ultras were in any shape to prosecute legion sized ops. the others were decimated in one way or the other. The Imperium was and still is crippled. they reclaimed what they lost but the ability to carry on had been neutered by the traitors.

Right on, I agree. Most of the Primarchs needed a direction to point their particular talents. Guilliman was one of the few primarchs that didn't need that direction (and didn't have a flaw). I really think he's meant to be a manifestation of the Big E's leadership/wise side.

Guilliman learned from the Heresy in a way that the others obviously did not. He learned that no one could be trusted with an entire legion of Space Marines. Put it another way: he learned that he couldn't trust any of his brothers with an entire legion and that they shouldn't trust him with one, either.

Furthermore, you guys are making it sound like Russ never complied at all with the Codex. Absolutely wrong. The Space Wolves did try. That's why they had successor chapters, too. But the Codex didn't really work for them thanks to their genetic instability. Do you really think Guilliman would not have brought Russ to heel (pun!) if he thought (1) it was possible for the SW to comply and (2) if he thought their non-compliance would endanger the Imperium? Moreover, there is no Space Wolves legion after the heresy. Whatever their organization, they are only about Chapter-sized. As to Blood Angels, Dark Angels, and their respective successors: the BA do comply in every way possible (the major exception being the Death Company) and the Dark Angels only diverge in secret -- even from their own lower ranks -- so I'd say Guilliman was pretty successful there as well.

What does that leave? The Black Templars -- surprise, surprise it's a Chapter founded by Dorn and led from the beginning by Dorn's most fanatical intimates. Whatever Dorn was before the Heresy, he was a changed man after the Emperor's enthronement. It is clear that he was in no way able to run the Imperium after the Heresy. He could not even manage his own Legion. Thankfully, the Emperor had a dependable son in Guilliman, someone who could safeguard what was left of His legacy and keep broken men like Dorn from squandering it.

Even so, Dorn managed to sew the seeds of his own mental breakdown into what would eventually become a new legion. If there is any Chapter of Space Marines whose beliefs and practices run more contrary to the spirit of the Great Crusade, I've yet to hear about it. Meanwhile, Ultramar is the realization of the Emperor's vision for all humanity. Those who follow the example set by Guilliman are still fighting the Great Crusade in a way.

I think people need to remember MOST Loyalist Space Marines after the Heresy were actual Ultramarines. Guilliman was hardly asking a terrible thing of his brother's decimated legions who barely had enough guys to make 3 chapters whereas he himself has hundreds of thousands of Marines.
Guilliman was all by himself the dominant military superpower in the galaxy and what does he do with it? Makes all of the Legions equal. What a douche.

But he did have a flaw. Too rigid, while appropriate and effective in the extreme circumstance of his time, can be detrimental after the dust settles a bit.

But can you blame Gulliman for that, or his followers long after he was gone?

Crantor wrote:Dorn couldn`t. He did lose his mind for a bit after the heresy and the iron warriors messed him up good. that in itself should tell you that he didn`t have what it took to hold it together because he couldn`t hold himself together. i read Nemesis, values and morals aside, he really wasn`t running the imperium, he was coordinating the defense of terra. The sigilite and Constantine were really the ones running things. Dorn was an excellent Praetorian, but he was not up to running the Imperium without his father. Yes Gulliman carried on, like most people that can deal with loss and perservere.

The reality is that only a few primarchs had the skill to administer something a big as the Imperium. Horus, Gulliman and maybe the lion but even then. And as I mentioned, only the Ultras were in any shape to prosecute legion sized ops. the others were decimated in one way or the other. The Imperium was and still is crippled. they reclaimed what they lost but the ability to carry on had been neutered by the traitors.

Administration and Leadership are different things. The bureaucrats were and did take care of 95% of the work. You basically have a choice between someone with passion - a gamble, that could have turned out either very well, or very badly; or Gulliman's dispassionate gradual slide into what the Imperium is now. Gulliman is tapioca, he is neutrality distilled into human form. An inspired leader could have had the chance of completing the Emperor's vision for humanity, Gulliman ensured that mediocrity became the norm, as that was his great talent. Implying that the Legions were shattered and could not have been rebuilt is illogical - it simply takes time. The Emperor's Children came back from a hundred to fighting strength in decades. I think Gulliman took all the wrong lessons from the Heresy. And enforcing his views on his peers was not the way to handle things.

To address the issue of the Wolves and the codex astartes - they created exactly one canon successor chapter, and creating successors isn't really the thrust of the thing. The codex mandates 10 companies of 100, and codified them as various squad types. The Wolves utterly disregard this, having none of the same organizations or tactics mandated by the codex. The Space Wolf books mention nothings whatsoever of Rangar and his pack mates poring over the codex and learning from the storied wisdom of Gulliman. They roundly denied Gulliman's decrees in every meaningful way, possible no doubt because Russ outlived Roboute. Currently the Space Wolves are organized into Great Companies, exactly as they were before the Heresy, and the smallest of these easily exceeds the 100 man figure mandated by the codex astartes. For all intents and purposes the sixth legion has endured to this day, with their only concession being that they started calling themselves a chapter. Gulliman didn't let Russ do his own thing because of the Canis Helix and their special circumstances; outside of Magnus I seriously doubt any of the other primarchs ever had a clue about any of that stuff. He didn't press Russ because he knew Russ would never, ever back down. Dorn was a civilized, relatively reasonable guy. Russ would not have hesitated to throw his entire Legion into Gulliman's face if his principles and sense of necessity demanded. And Gulliman was smart enough to realize that if the Ultramarines fought the Wolves, he would be absolutely wrecked, even if he won.

Crantor wrote:But can you blame Gulliman for that, or his followers long after he was gone?

Kind of both really. Followers definitely, but a leader has to be held accountable for the actions of his followers. He made rigid rules a thing of almost religious overtone for those who came afterwards, for better or worse. Hey I'm noot against Guilleman I think he's a great and important character in a story, but he, like all great and important characters in a story, is also flawed and not really better or worse for it, just different and characterful.

Bromsy, you ought to brush up on your fluff.

Regarding Codex Astartes, creating successors is exactly the thrust of things. The ten company template is not followed exactly by many Chapters that are not considered widely divergent -- the Salamanders, for example, have seven line companies. Yes, not every Chapter honors the Codex as fastidiously as the Ultramarines and the other 90% of Space Marines out there (including the Imperial Fists, known to be second only to the Ultramarines in terms of their adherence to Guilliman's teachings). You can look at the Codex on two levels. First, there is a the zoomed-in approach that focuses on the words of every paragraph. Second, there is the big-picture approach that prevents Space Marines from starting another Horus Heresy. However the Chapters honor the first level they all (minus Black Templars) honor the second.

Post-Heresy, Dorn was not a reasonable fellow. Go read Index Astartes. Actually, he was so fething unreasonable that he almost destroyed what was left of the Imperial Fists for basically no reason. Thankfully, Guilliman stepped in and saved both him and his Legion.

Guilliman could have easily handled the post-Prospero SWs.
The only real challenge for Guilliman would have been if every other loyalist legion (or what little remained of them) ganged up on him. And that wouldn't happen because several other legions agreed with the adoption of the Codex. As to Dorn being so "reasonable," please be aware that it wasn't Russ the "savage" but rather"civilized" Dorn who was going to start a civil war over it.

Furthermore, I defy you to ever come up with any actual number published by GW concerning how many Space Wolves are in a single Great Company much less exactly how many Space Wolves there are over all.

The act of creating successor chapters is not a central tenant of the Codex Astartes, and therefore creating one is not a sign of adhering to the codex, as you posited earlier. Having no space marine force collectively being larger than 1000 marines IS a central point, which the wolves never attempted to meet; Seeing as it states that

"The Space Wolves were divided only once, creating the ill-fated Wolfbrothers Chapter. Perhaps the High Lords recognized the problems of genetic instability that would plague the legacy of leman russ, giving rise in later times to the terrible curse of the wulfen. Perhaps Leman Russ had no intention of breaking apart his mighty legion so that they could be divided and conquered if necessary. What is known, however, is that the Space Wolves had and still have little regard for the dictates and military tradition of the Codex Astartes, instead holding sacred the teachings of Russ that are handed down..." Which is right there in the SW book. They have never cared a whit for Gulliman's ideas.

The two tier approach to the codex is as far as I can tell, your opinion. The definition I have been using is

The Codex Astartes is the doctrine of the Space Marine Chapters, governing all aspects of Chapter organization and battlefield tactics.

And the Space Wolves rejected that. Entirely. I've read all the Index Astartes. Dorn had a crisis. The sort of thing anyone would have in his place. Saying that he was unfit to lead because he made a mistake is ridiculous. He fought on Terra, at the Emperor's side. He was the Emperor's right hand man. When the Emperor died, it would hit him a little bit harder than it would Gulliman, because Dorn, for all of his merits, also had the flaw of having a personality, which was one that Roboute managed to avoid. Plus the inference that Gulliman could have easily handled the wolves seems ludicrous. Out of all the Legions, who did Horus through him the Ruinous Powers make a special effort to destroy? The Wolves, and the Sons, because they were a force all out of proportion to their numbers. The Wolves had a strength and purity of purpose. They were Executioners, and with Russ at their head they would have, as I said, wrecked the Ultras, either in victory or defeat.

.... I don't even know how to address the idea that Dorn was the one who wanted to start a civil war. The Emperor set up the Legions. The Legions defeated the traitors, not Chapters. Gulliman made a decision that they needed to be broken up basically on the sole reason that he thought so, Dorn disagreed. The Imperial Fists got fired upon because they wouldn't go along with Gulliman, and that is Dorn starting a civil war? ........ Gulliman thought that no one person should have control over that many people because Horus started the Heresy. Is it not an equally valid idea that it was only stopped because there were other people with that much power? Did none of that warrant discussion instead of a demand of obedience that none of the Primarchs owed to Gulliman? Even if every other primarch agreed with Gulliman does it still not behoove them to try to solve the issue peacefully, as they are all brothers, instead of attacking the Fists?

Manchu wrote:L-I: Consider how units get better or worse between editions and you might have a more complete picture regarding how fluff and crunch interact.

I think what you're driving at here is how fluff gets changed to accomodate improvements to units and factions. That's true in the case of individual units, but the core elements remain unchanged.

Hive Guard, for example. Where the hell did they come from? Never heard of them before the new book was released. Thing is, the Nids needed big tough shooty units - if fluff and crunch were completely divided they could've just given them Railheads or Devastator Squads and passed it off as some sort of mercenary arrangement. Fluff says no, so instead here's a new biomorph of Tyranid.

I'm having trouble following the rest of your argument which is starting to read like " I didnt say UM get too much attention, I said that UM get too much attention."

My argument: the Ultramarines and Rowboat are Mary Sues, and whenever a Mary Sue is allowed to run rampant through the carefully constructed backstory of anything it can only be detremental to said backstory. Ultramarines, case in point; other Chapters are cooler, have more depth and potential, but Matt Ward doesn't like them. He likes Ultramarines.

Hence, Rowboat doesn't deserve more praise, because he's already being set up as the next Emperor and his Chapter already dominates everything to do with the Space Marines fluff-wise. If anything he needs to be put on the back burner for a while so's the Fists, Salamaners, White Scars and other Codex bods can get a bit of fleshing out.

So there it is, nice and succinct for you.

I still like Magnus a lot.

It was the Emperor's fault things went so badly with Magnus in the end.

He was his "son" and if he had just explained what was going on then things wouldn't have been nearly as bad.

He did make a deal with the Daemons but then again so did the Emperor.

Bromsy wrote:The two tier approach to the codex is as far as I can tell, your opinion.

No, it's my analysis. Some people, like yourself, only see the Codex as an attempt by Guilliman to force all other chapters to adhere to the most minute of details regarding his ideas about orgnization, tactics, beliefs, etc. This is unequivocally false. It was never Guilliman's intent to do so and this is proven by the (fictional) fact that even Chapters considered to be staunchly adherent also follow their own traditions. The Imperial Fists even appended their own doctrines to the Codex. In truth, the most far-reaching effect of the Codex is to replace the Legion model with the Chapter one and this is mainly a question of numbers -- not, as you seem to think, what color a certain Marine paints the trim of his pauldrons. There is no Space wolf Legion anymore. It is not merely called a "Chapter," it is a Chapter. They are not Codex-adherent but neither did Russ totally ignore Guilliman.

Bromsy wrote:Dorn had a crisis. The sort of thing anyone would have in his place.

No, Dorn had a crisis unique to his own personality. Guilliman had no such crisis. You can say he "had no personality," fine, but that is merely an unfounded insult. What remains, however, is that Guilliman was able to pick up the pieces while Dorn was busy losing his mind.

Bromsy wrote:Plus the inference that Gulliman could have easily handled the wolves seems ludicrous.

Seems ridiculous until you consider their losses at Prospero. Your argument seems to be "I think Space Wolves are cool and I think Ultramarines are lame. Therefore, Space Wolves would win in any fight between them ." I don't find this convincing.

Bromsy wrote:The Imperial Fists got fired upon because they wouldn't go along with Gulliman, and that is Dorn starting a civil war? . . . Even if every other primarch agreed with Gulliman does it still not behoove them to try to solve the issue peacefully, as they are all brothers, instead of attacking the Fists?

That is the very point but you are looking at it backwards. We know that there were some Legions that didn't like Guilliman's ideas: namely, the Space Wolves and the Salamanders along with the Imperial Fists. But only Dorn's forces were ever fired upon. Only Dorn ever brought things to a head. We know that it is not in Guilliman's character to act irrationally, even when his dignity is insulted. We know the opposite about Rogal Dorn (at least, how he acted after the Heresy).


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Lictor_Interdictor wrote:My argument: the Ultramarines and Rowboat are Mary Sues, and whenever a Mary Sue is allowed to run rampant through the carefully constructed backstory of anything it can only be detremental to said backstory.

Please explain how the Ultramrines' fluff has damaged any other aspect of the of the 40k story. Again, your argument seems to be based on marketing: "if Ultramarines get 70% of the Codex pages, that only leaves 30% for Chapters I like better." Okay. That has nothing to do with the quality of the Ultramarines backstory itself or the effect of their backstory on the rest of the 40k universe.

TBH, your problems are with GW or, more specifically Matt Ward, than Guilliman and the Ultramarines. But I suspect you didn't mind them much before getting on the internet, anyway.

Guilliman firing on Allies that don't agree with him seems pretty irrational to me...

However I've still not read the book that came from.

Guilliman seemed quite thick skinned in the begging of first heretic.

Although...

obsidianaura wrote:Guilliman firing on Allies that don't agree with him seems pretty irrational to me.

Consider what was actually at stake and you may feel differently.

Spoiler:

He did blow up a City just to make a point to Logar

Those were the Emperor's orders.

If rowboat was so awesome then how come all the cool boys (Blood Angels, Salamanders, Wolves, Raven Guard etc..) flout the index astartes?

He was a cool though... for a smurf

Well, it's no surprise that first founding Chapters follow their own traditions. But that's not really "flouting" the Codex in the sense of my discussion with Bromsy. Flouting the Codex in that sense isn't the difference between having seven companies of 120 marines rather than ten companies of 100 marines but rather maintaining a legion instead of a Chapter. Again, the thing that is important is what has kept something like the Badab War from being another Horus Heresy-scale civil war. The only "Chapter" that really seems to flout the Codex in that sense is the Black Templars. Everyone else makes a semblence of comliance, with the Space Wolves being the least amenable.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Think of it in terms of the spirit and the letter of the law. The spirit of the Codex is preserving the Imperium from Space Marine rebellions. The letter is company organization, camo patterns, squad tactics, religious doctrines, etc.

This is a really engaging thread. As a spectator, I'm enjoying L_I's passion and fire but agreeing more with Manchu and co.

Personally, I'm not that keen on the perceived overexposure of the Ultramarines but I respect what Guilleman managed to achieve during and post-Heresy.

Manchu wrote:

obsidianaura wrote:Guilliman firing on Allies that don't agree with him seems pretty irrational to me.

Consider what was actually at stake and you may feel differently.

Spoiler:

He did blow up a City just to make a point to Logar

Those were the Emperor's orders.

Yep and they evacuated the city before hand as well. It was a symbolic gesture by Big E and Guilliman simply carried it out.

What are you guys talking about? Ultras and IF had a shootout? Is this in the background or a novel?

There is no novelized account of this. I think you can read about in the current SM codex and it's definitely in Index Astartes.

What Happened?

KamikazeCanuck wrote:What Happened?

http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Imperial_Fists

Under the section titled "Codex Astartes Crisis";

Dorn initially rejected the Codex Astartes, calling Guilliman a coward due to lack of participation in the defense of the Imperial Palace. Guilliman accused Dorn of being a traitor for refusing the Codex. Leman Russ of the Space Wolves and Vulkan of the Salamanders stood by the Imperial Fists, while Jaghatai Khan of the White Scars and Corax of the Raven Guard supported the Ultramarines. A second civil war appeared likely when the Imperial Fists strike cruiser Terrible Angel was fired upon by the Imperial Navy in connection with Codex crisis.15a However, Dorn ultimately relented after spending seven days meditating in the pain glove. There, he concluded that the Legion could no longer serve the Emperor who had been and must serve the Emperor who was, which involved accepting the new order of which the Codex was a part.2c

Manchu wrote:
What does that leave? The Black Templars -- surprise, surprise it's a Chapter founded by Dorn and led from the beginning by Dorn's most fanatical intimates. Whatever Dorn was before the Heresy, he was a changed man after the Emperor's enthronement. It is clear that he was in no way able to run the Imperium after the Heresy. He could not even manage his own Legion. Thankfully, the Emperor had a dependable son in Guilliman, someone who could safeguard what was left of His legacy and keep broken men like Dorn from squandering it.

Even so, Dorn managed to sew the seeds of his own mental breakdown into what would eventually become a new legion. If there is any Chapter of Space Marines whose beliefs and practices run more contrary to the spirit of the Great Crusade, I've yet to hear about it. Meanwhile, Ultramar is the realization of the Emperor's vision for all humanity. Those who follow the example set by Guilliman are still fighting the Great Crusade in a way.

Back to the old incorrect view upon Black Templars?

Its without doubt the BT who are still crusading and still NOT implementing Psykers like Nikaea demands...
Its without doubt the BT who see the Emperor as their leader, not their God.
Its without doubt the BT codex that defines the BT.

Ultramar is better run, but thats obvious as Gullymans abilities were to organise, so his pragmatic approach got the Ultras more recruts than anyone and a stable
ressource basis. The crusade? The crusade had a leader, called Warmaster, who was reported to "move on" and leave the "boring" work to others.
Some of the "famous" Primarchs were never that focused on building an empire or controlling one.
Gullymans example isn't still fighting the grerat crusade in a way as the great crusade was abandoned by Guillyman and his way is to stabilize, not to reconquer.
If Gullymans way would be "great crusade stylish", his sons should have dealt with these xenos in the eastern fringe a long time ago.

Crantor wrote: Dorn did lose his mind for a bit after the heresy and the iron warriors messed him up good. that in itself should tell you that he didn`t have what it took to hold it together because he couldn`t hold himself together. i read Nemesis, values and morals aside, he really wasn`t running the imperium, he was coordinating the defense of terra. The sigilite and Constantine were really the ones running things. Dorn was an excellent Praetorian, but he was not up to running the Imperium without his father.

Constantine? A Custodes is responsible for the Emperors safety, no more no less. But never in charge of anything else. Without orders from the Emperor himself,
Custodes won't act.
But yes, the sigilite and the formed council, (later high lords), run the Imperium.

Bromsy wrote:
Gullyman is neutrality distilled into human form. An inspired leader could have had the chance of completing the Emperor's vision for humanity, Gulliman ensured that mediocrity became the norm, as that was his great talent.

A "bean counter" in the mantle of a Primarch does not need inspiration. He has to be good at copy-pasting, which Gullyman did with Codex astartes.
But the Emperors vision was lost with the Emperor.
None of the Primarchs/high lords had the stature to step into the Emperors treads. The plan seemed to be to specialize and split up dutys if you look at the
latest installments of the HH series.

Bromsy wrote:
For all intents and purposes the sixth legion has endured to this day, with their only concession being that they started calling themselves a chapter.
Gulliman was smart enough to realize that if the Ultramarines fought the Wolves, he would be absolutely wrecked, even if he won.

With the revealed duty of the Space Wolves , to insist on full compliance to codex to the letter
may have lead to a "close and final debate" between Russ and Gullyman.
All of the loyal Legions kept some of their old ways and I am sure it was possibly because Gullyman needed his brothers consent to change anything.
The price of Russ to join was to try once, and failing to create successors endangered to loose the asset of Space wolves completly.
Marines were to valuable to loose so compliance became unneccessary...
The choice was "spirit of the codex" or "letter of the codex" and "spirit" preserved the options of the IoM far better.

Manchu wrote:
Post-Heresy, Dorn was not a reasonable fellow. Go read Index Astartes. Actually, he was so fething unreasonable that he almost destroyed what was left of the Imperial Fists for basically no reason. Thankfully, Guilliman stepped in and saved both him and his Legion.

fething Unreasonable?
Maybe different reasons, that is.
More in line with the old ways of the Samurai, where failing to protect was a "die worthy issue".
So Gullyman stepped in. Why is Dorn not still around then?

Manchu wrote:
Guilliman could have easily handled the post-Prospero SWs.

No. Not a personal one on one. And thats what would happen. Russ is meant as a hunter, he would only strike if he could get the job done.

Manchu wrote:
The only real challenge for Guilliman would have been if every other loyalist legion (or what little remained of them) ganged up on him. And that wouldn't happen because several other legions agreed with the adoption of the Codex.

Why don't you cite the correct "split" of the Legios? Because only half of them agreed?

Legion vs Legion the ultras may have the upper hand ( if there are no other forces or the mechanicum decides to opt against him ), but it isn't
likely as brothers may have a direct confrontation where common space marines won't contribute that much ...

Manchu wrote:
Furthermore, I defy you to ever come up with any actual number published by GW concerning how many Space Wolves are in a single Great Company much less exactly how many Space Wolves there are over all.

Nicely done. Like asking the overall numbers of Orks.
Unknown values prove nothing.
Shall I call you out to come up with the correct and complete number of Ultramarine successors of the 2nd founding

Manchu wrote: Some people, like yourself, only see the Codex as an attempt by Guilliman to force all other chapters to adhere to the most minute of details regarding his ideas about orgnization, tactics, beliefs, etc. This is unequivocally false.

Since Manchu knows Gullymans intend, can we replace M.Ward with Manchu?
You know, Mr "bestest marines" is the one responsible to claim the Codex Astartes a "holy tome" and "sacrosanct".



.

Bromsy wrote:The Imperial Fists got fired upon because they wouldn't go along with Gulliman, and that is Dorn starting a civil war? .

Manchu wrote: We know that there were some Legions that didn't like Guilliman's ideas: namely, the Space Wolves and the Salamanders along with the Imperial Fists. But only Dorn's forces were ever fired upon. Only Dorn ever brought things to a head. We know that it is not in Guilliman's character to act irrationally, even when his dignity is insulted. We know the opposite about Rogal Dorn

You need 2 to act stubborn to have a fight like this. 1 is not enough.
You seem to forget that Dorn was one of the few "militarists" ( grown up inside the miltary ) of the Primarchs and had greater numbers as others at hand even after defending Terra. So the Major faction of the Codex opposers may have been the IF and thus fired was upon the IF.

Manchu wrote: TBH, your problems are more specifically Matt Ward, .

Sad truth.

Manchu wrote: Flouting the Codex in that sense isn't the difference between having seven companies of 120 marines rather than ten companies of 100 marines but rather maintaining a legion instead of a Chapter. Again, the thing that is important is what has kept something like the Badab War from being another Horus Heresy-scale civil war. The only "Chapter" that really seems to flout the Codex in that sense is the Black Templars. Everyone else makes a semblence of compliance, with the Space Wolves being the least amenable.

I don't know if you know, but the tyrant of badab did enlarge his force over any boundaries of the codex .
The badab war was also a case of marines thinking themselves superior and thus "naturally" the one with the last word. Rather close to the Heresy.

Plus you seem to ignore the close ties of the Blood Angels and the Dark Angels to their respective successors. Would assume its only the flaw that keeps the BA
restricted in size and the DA are able to count on a "few" chapters if neccessary.

Again, several thousands of marines to call on isn't unheard of. BT do it openly, other may pull a few strings to make it happen...

Manchu wrote:
Think of it in terms of the spirit and the letter of the law. The spirit of the Codex is preserving the Imperium from Space Marine rebellions. The letter is company organization, camo patterns, squad tactics, religious doctrines, etc.

Like the spirit of the rules?
I really like it when former GW game designers have an article about "spirit", "letter" and "neccessitys of design" in a WD in the same week we have these important parts of 40k in a thread.

How important is the letter?
Maybe it is open to interpretation and that is the only thing that saves a 10k year old tome from outdating.
Maybe the example s of Ultramarine background hint to often to "following the codex to the letter".



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KamikazeCanuck wrote:What are you guys talking about? Ultras and IF had a shootout? Is this in the background or a novel?

Codex Black Templars page 6.

Posted by AgeOfEgos above.

Ah, 1hadhq, I was wondering when you'd be along.

The work of the Great Crusade involved liberating humanity from misery and superstition. The work of the Black Templars is merely the slaughter of humanity's enemies. Like their Priamrch ultimately did before them, they shirk the burden of leading humanity by example in exchange for an endless pursuit of self-validation through vengeance. Regarding the divinity of the Emperor: of all Space Marines chapters, I cannot think of a better example of the blurry line between veneration and adoration than the one offered by the Black Templars. Again, this is hardly surprising given their Primarch's fanatical loyalty. I don't call it a weakness in M42 but it is definitely not the vision of M31.

Close ties among a Chapters is very different from maintaining a Legion. Read up on relations between the BA successors, for example. The DA successors are obviously more conspiratorial regarding the Fallen but it's still a far cry from a Legion under one leader's authority.

AgeOfEgos wrote:

KamikazeCanuck wrote:What Happened?

http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Imperial_Fists

Under the section titled "Codex Astartes Crisis";

Dorn initially rejected the Codex Astartes, calling Guilliman a coward due to lack of participation in the defense of the Imperial Palace. Guilliman accused Dorn of being a traitor for refusing the Codex. Leman Russ of the Space Wolves and Vulkan of the Salamanders stood by the Imperial Fists, while Jaghatai Khan of the White Scars and Corax of the Raven Guard supported the Ultramarines. A second civil war appeared likely when the Imperial Fists strike cruiser Terrible Angel was fired upon by the Imperial Navy in connection with Codex crisis.15a However, Dorn ultimately relented after spending seven days meditating in the pain glove. There, he concluded that the Legion could no longer serve the Emperor who had been and must serve the Emperor who was, which involved accepting the new order of which the Codex was a part.2c

Interesting, although it says it was an Imperial Navy vessel.
I didn't realize that Dorn sent his Legion into the Iron Cage without planning for the purpose to inflcit pain on them and "cleanse" them. Seriously what a douche. At a time when there trying to hold the shattered galaxy together he just throws away the majority of his Troops lives away? I've lost all respect for Dorn.

Don't lose all respect for him. His greatness is preserved in various ways among his Chapters. I can't say I find the IF obsession with pain very appealing but they are paragons of loyalty. The hopefulness and pragmatic nature of the Crimson Fists is worth honoring. And the single-minded fanaticism of the BT is without a doubt a "necessary evil" in a reality where daemons can burst out of someone's brain to overrun an entire sector. Dorn himself was an excellent commander and probably the Primarch who most sincerely thought of the Emperor as his "father." After Guilliman brought him back from the edge, he was once again a great leader and deserves veneration throughout the entire Imperium.

The Iron Cage incident is supposed to be after he was brought back from the edge. There's no excuse for purposefully butchering your own Legion.

Well, if you think of the division of his Legion as another blow to his confidence -- which it certainly was -- you can see that this was the edge for him. Guilliman intervened and saved the Imperial Fists at the Iron Cage.

Juvieus Kaine wrote:I just don't the fact the ultras popped in at the end of the Heresy and said "hey guys lets make a book of tactics and rules!" even though the only fighting they did was nowhere near Terra and was more on their front doorstep. Besides that itself shows Horus was smarter since he recognised the ultras as the biggest opponent and threw 3 other armies at them to keep them busy.

OK, look. Its not his fault he wasn't near Terra. It was Horus who sent him to the far reaches of the newly conquered Imperium. Everyone uses that argument, which really is foolish if you think it over. That also doesn't mean Horus was greater. It means the daemons who possessed him were smarter, when they clouded his own judjment on Davin. +1 for Guilliman!

Manchu wrote:Well, if you think of the division of his Legion as another blow to his confidence -- which it certainly was -- you can see that this was the edge for him. Guilliman intervened and saved the Imperial Fists at the Iron Cage.

All you can ask of your general is to not pointlessly throw your life away for the sake of pointlessly throwing your life away. In that Dorn failed and so betrayed his men.

@KC: I cannot deny that it was a poor choice but, along with his offended dignity regarding the Codex, it is the exception in his illustrious career rather than the rule.

Well you say he did some good stuff afterwards so I hope your right.
Also, Did the Ultramarines really intervene in the Iron Cage or did they just show up after all was said and done and say "Holy Crap".

The UMs intervened and the Iron Warriors retreated.

Manchu wrote:Ah, 1hadhq, I was wondering when you'd be along.

Felt somehow called

The grasp of a Primarch on a Legion IS so different from any chapter master, a level above and beyond.
So neither of the chapter masters could expect the same unquestioned followship.

But as the Badab war has shown, ambition and isolation may lead on a dark path.


Dante and Azrael may not just order other chapters to do their bidding, but IMO may rely safely on some brothers to strengthen their own forces.
Other chapters may have "friends" too. The difference is the 2 'Angels' keep the relations with those sharing the geneseed active.

Who can Calgar hope to call upon?


@KamikazeCanuck: Penitent crusades. The IF version was somehow an act of "kamikaze".

Who can Calgar hope to call upon?

I hope you're kidding.

1hadhq wrote:

Manchu wrote:Ah, 1hadhq, I was wondering when you'd be along.

Felt somehow called

The grasp of a Primarch on a Legion IS so different from any chapter master, a level above and beyond.
So neither of the chapter masters could expect the same unquestioned followship.

But as the Badab war has shown, ambition and isolation may lead on a dark path.

Spoiler:

Huron tried to return to legio sized operations with attached IG nonetheless!

Dante and Azrael may not just order other chapters to do their bidding, but IMO may rely safely on some brothers to strengthen their own forces.
Other chapters may have "friends" too. The difference is the 2 'Angels' keep the relations with those sharing the geneseed active.

Who can Calgar hope to call upon?


@KamikazeCanuck: Penitent crusades. The IF version was somehow an act of "kamikaze".

The Kamikaze was a desparate act of Defense.
The IF did not need to be punished. Literally, there is no excuse for "Lord Dorn, will you use you legendary tactical abilties to break this cage?"

"No."

Well, he tried. But the problem is that he knew he was walking into a trap and refused to withdraw when it became clear that he was caught in said trap.

No, he wanted his Legion to be subject to what he felt in the "Pain Glove." Difference is people are dying here Dorn.

Don't forget that the IF were totally on board with this sort of thing. This isn't General Dravere coldly wasting the lives of Tanith's First & Only. The IF share their master's dark obsession with perfection and purity through pain and sacrifice.

I'm sure there were no objections. I believe the boys in yellow knew what they were in for. I think that loyalty makes it even more tragic.

Manchu wrote:

Who can Calgar hope to call upon?

I hope you're kidding.

Shall I ask his "half-brother" ?




Maybe another one?

Who would Calgar deem worthy to march under his command?
I mean, the Exorcists and the Ultramarines had not an easy time getting along..

Basically, did the split into chapters alienate his sons more than Gullyman expected?

The point of having Chapters is that Calgar cannot order any other Chapter to help him out. But there are plenty who would. Ninety percent of all chapters are based on Ultramarine genestock and venerate Guilliman as their Primarch. Many of those who are not UM successors respect and honor them nonetheless. The IF and BA would certainly help them, for example. After the UM First Company was decimated by Kraken, for example, Dante sent three entire companies to help purge Macragge of nids.

Surely Calgar cannot order this.

But 90% geneseed?
I think you got the numbers wrong there.
Assuming its 1000 x 1000.

- Salamanders+Iron Hands+Raven Guard+White Scars = 10k
- Black Templars+crimson fists+Imperial Fists = 10k
- Blood Angels +Dark Angels+Space wolves = 15k

=> 35k

- 100k - 35k = 65k.
- 65k of 100k = 65%

using the official chapters from codices and successors

Lots of sons of Gullyman.

I believe the point is made in the codex, will look it up when I can.

60% iirc

The space wolves do not comply with the codex astarates. Their army book specifically says they reject it in almost every way possible. The ONLY thing they did is split the legion once into an ill fated chapter that was disbanded due to mutation. Russ may have been a fighter first but he was far from stupid. Although he disagreed with Guilliman and resisted the codex, he knew he could not prevail in a war against the entire imperium and (more importantly I think) he knew the emperor wouldn't have wanted another war over some disagreements on chapter protocol.

So Russ basically said: We serve the emperor and mankind first and foremost, but we will serve and accomadate the imperium but we will do it our own way and we will not change who we are for anyone. We aren't going to attack you unless you try to fight us and the emperor save you if you do. And thats pretty much the way the space wolves have operated in the 10, 000 years since

Definately. People just hate on him because he's an Ultramarine, and they just hate on Ultramarines because GW uses them on the cover of everything(which I don't get, why not hate on Saim Hann Eldar and Cadian IG by that logic)

Gulliman was awesome.

1hadhq wrote:

Who would Calgar deem worthy to march under his command?
I mean, the Exorcists and the Ultramarines had not an easy time getting along..

When did this happen? Is this described in Badab War 2? Or are you thinking of the Mortifactors in the Ultramarines book where Uriel Ventris fights the Nids?

Dorn is pretty deliberately portrayed as taking the loss of the Emperor harder than pretty much anyone else, and I always read the Iron Cage affair as his absolute low-point. I like the way Abnett portrayed him in the audio-book "Lightning tower" where you can see he truly believes in the cause and dedicates himself to it, but he also has this nagging worry in the back of his head that maybe Kurze is right. Maybe the galaxy is just too horrible for the kind of utopia he wants to build to actually work out, and everything is about to go straight to hell. He approaches the whole Heresy almost in Denial about what's happening, no way my buddy Horus could be a monster like that. This whole fortification thing is a temporary measure and right after Horus and the Emperor talk it out we'll bring the sculptures back out and restart the great crusade and everything will be just how it's supposed to be. Yeah... no. Sorry buddy. Get ready for Grimdark.

Just to make sure I'm on-topic, I don't think Guilliman deserves "more praise" so much as he deserves "less hatred". Most of the hatred comes from the way Codex Space Marines was written as Codex "HEY THESE GUYS IN BLUE ARE AWESOME AND OH YEAR THERE ARE SOME OTHER CHAPTERS TOO" which is a massive disservice to a lot of interesting ideas in the SM codex and in the background of the other primarchs. I tend to view almost all the hatred as a response to the over-selling of a Primarch that is cool and all, but not super-cooler perfect and better than the other loyalist primarchs to warrant this. Like his chapter, the biggest defining feature of Roboute's background is that he is the standard of original intent to which others are compared. Without Ultras as the stock, "generic" marine chapter you hear about the BAs aren't as tragic, the Wolves aren't as feral, etc. Simillarly, Corax isn't as driven to make desperate decisions to rebuild his legion, Dorn isn't as tragic in his mental break-down after the death of his father, and the Lion isn't as paranoid or frustrated by his inability to relate to and understand other people. He's the baseline template of how a Primarch should act, compared to his very emotional brothers. There's nothing bad about that, per say, but it also means that the other primarchs are going to inevitably be more human and fleshed out than he is.

It feels to me at least, as though the ultramarines are a neccessity in the 40k universe, like a baseline or golden standard from which all other chapters and races are measured. It doesn't feel as though GW is trying to impress upon me that they are super-awesome and better than everyone, simply that they are the example. All other deviations from this principle are what put the others in contrast. The BA, DA, SW, ravens, etc are all cool and have depth of their own, but when you compare them to the ultras, it adds something to them.

They provide the straight, laced, good guys, superman aspect to the 40k universe. This is not to the detriment of the other races, who simply shine more (if you were first inclined to favour them) by comparison to the boy scouts that are the ultras. As an example, compare batman and superman. The ultras are clearly superman in this analogy, everything by the book, no dark plotting or skulking, just morally clean punch the bad guy and be done with it. Batman when compared (still awesome in his own right) now looks all the more dark and mysterious. Instead of being diminshed, he is enhanced by the comparison. Please no exacting corrections from comic book fanboys (of which I am one), I'm using broad strokes here.

So it is with roboute and co. You may not like him, but he is there to demonstrate what the imperium is supposed to be about by the writers of the fluff. You may not agree that this is how it should be and that the imperium would benefit from more flexibility and so on, but this dogmatic approach is what has made the imperium what it is today. All criticism aside, to hold that together for 10,000 years (longer than the traceable roots of civilisation as we know it now) is pretty impressive.

Reanimator and inquisitorfaust make a very thoughtful point regarding UMs being the standard against which other chapters are judged. My "defending the UM thread" was all about this, actually. The idea is that the UM remind us that humanity is still the "good guy" -- or, at least, they remind us that the Grim Dark is optional to some extent.

I don't think, however, that Guilliman represents this kind of standard among his brother primarchs.

In this context, I have to echo Mike Noble's question: why no hatred for Cadians? I guess it's just not as cool to hate Cadians . . .

Manchu wrote:Reanimator and inquisitorfaust make a very thoughtful point regarding UMs being the standard against which other chapters are judged. My "defending the UM thread" was all about this, actually. The idea is that the UM remind us that humanity is still the "good guy" -- or, at least, they remind us that the Grim Dark is optional to some extent.

I don't think, however, that Guilliman represents this kind of standard among his brother primarchs.

In this context, I have to echo Mike Noble's question: why no hatred for Cadians? I guess it's just not as cool to hate Cadians . . .

I agree, I think Sang. is more representative of virtue/nobility.

It's true: aside from his wings, Sanguinias is the (perfect) standard.

Hmm, realised I was pipped there by inquisitorfaust- must read/post faster!

inquisitorfaust wrote:

1hadhq wrote:

Who would Calgar deem worthy to march under his command?
I mean, the Exorcists and the Ultramarines had not an easy time getting along..

When did this happen? Is this described in Badab War 2? Or are you thinking of the Mortifactors in the Ultramarines book where Uriel Ventris fights the Nids?

Could have the Exorcists and Mortifactors swapped unknowingly.
The point was the difference after 10k years.
Shared geneseed isn't automatically shared interests.

There is standardization, called codex astartes. There is another, the standard of the space marine wargear.
Not only organization is standardized.
But, the actual issue is trifold:
a) M.Ward
b) lack of HH-spotlight for Gullyman
c) ultras are seen as standard of the SM

I could see a solution for A....
B should be dealt with in the future.
C isn't a problem until you need to be "special".

The Primarchs may not have one "standard Primarch", as they are IMO aspects of the Emperor and the latest hints at specific roles for them after the great crusade
is important to remember.

Manchu wrote:It's true: aside from his wings, Sanguinias is the (perfect) standard.

I think Guilliman may have the edge on Sanguinius on tactics, but yeah i have to agree with the perfect part if his background is anything to go by

Manchu wrote:In this context, I have to echo Mike Noble's question: why no hatred for Cadians? I guess it's just not as cool to hate Cadians . . .

Part of the hate for big-name poster kids is that they are perceived to get improbable character-shield wins that they do not particularly merit. The idea of Guard winning against ANYONE in codex-level background (as opposed to just the heroes of a BL novel) is still a fresh, exciting new development in Warhammer lore and everyone is still in shock.

Still, I actually think you can see a light-hearted early form of this in the CREEEEEEEEED meme going around. It's not as pronounced as the Ultra-hate, but then I suspect the first few times the scions of Gulliman were called Smurfs it wasn't particularly mean-spirited either.

Why, to emulate that sort of mental meme-development within the minds of GW staff using mere mortals instead of superhuman space marines, it would take some sort of tactical gen- CREEEEEEEEEEEED!

(Actually, I rather like the Cadians for all the work they have done to break the idea that all Guard armies are meat shield oceans that resemble Russians at Stalingrad. Leave that trope for the Valhallans, but the IG can be more than that if you want a regiment of men instead of statistics.)

1hadhq wrote:
Could have the Exorcists and Mortifactors swapped unknowingly.
The point was the difference after 10k years.
Shared geneseed isn't automatically shared interests.

That's fine, and I broadly agree with you on that point. I'm just an Exorcists fan so I am always looking out for more scraps of official Exorcists background.

inquisitorfaust wrote:

Manchu wrote:In this context, I have to echo Mike Noble's question: why no hatred for Cadians? I guess it's just not as cool to hate Cadians . . .

Part of the hate for big-name poster kids is that they are perceived to get improbable character-shield wins that they do not particularly merit. The idea of Guard winning against ANYONE in codex-level background (as opposed to just the heroes of a BL novel) is still a fresh, exciting new development in Warhammer lore and everyone is still in shock.

This may sound harsh but I really do blame Ward. You read the SM codex and it's over the top, 12 year old fan boy style grates on the nerves. I don't think it's specific to Ultramarines though, as the BA dex is equally bad.

Of course Guilliman important, who else qwould write a book that gives us such wonderful fuel for the fire.

Rowboat Gillie mann
He does whatever a Gillie mann can
Watch him slay all the orcs in the land
Watch him slay all the orcs in the land
With a single blow of his power hand

Rowboat Gillie mann
Floats on water because he can
When he farts its the Lost and the Damned
When he farts its the Lost and the Damned
Deep striking in just like had planned

Rowboat Gillie mann
He's not in stasis he's just taking a nap
To recover from a two ton crap
To recover from a two ton crap
He'll wake up when the Emperor's attacked

hee hee hee.

I like the Ultramarines, all things considered. Its fun to poke fun of the anal retentive order though. The only reason I paint my marines different is that I don't like so much shiney plastic looking armor, I like the metallic armored marine look better. That is why they gave us so many offshoots. Iron and bronze for me thank you, but yes they still count to 10 well.

I don't think the SMurf name was origionally intended as an insult either ("muh spesh muhreens" is far worse, insulting the type of player, not the army) but when the Codex SM came out, there were still old versions of SW and BA, so they really were the amazing beatdown codex, which probably annoyed non SM players. I was just starting between shift changes from 4th to 5th and I saw with a beginners eyes the huge differences after their wolfy cousin's codex emerged, of how they were thought of by other players I talked to or wrote with online.

No longer was SM the WAAC "cheese" list because their offshoots have blown them out of the water for power-gaming and now have that cornered. Now they are just a Codex again, no longer the WAAC book of easy-win-for-morons by comparison to some of the more recent releases. In fact, I see less "muh spesh muhreens" any more than I see more "muh spesh wolves" nowadays for easy-win list builders.

Proud to be a SMurf player (even if they're iron colored smurfs)

AgeOfEgos wrote:

inquisitorfaust wrote:

Manchu wrote:In this context, I have to echo Mike Noble's question: why no hatred for Cadians? I guess it's just not as cool to hate Cadians . . .

Part of the hate for big-name poster kids is that they are perceived to get improbable character-shield wins that they do not particularly merit. The idea of Guard winning against ANYONE in codex-level background (as opposed to just the heroes of a BL novel) is still a fresh, exciting new development in Warhammer lore and everyone is still in shock.

This may sound harsh but I really do blame Ward. You read the SM codex and it's over the top, 12 year old fan boy style grates on the nerves. I don't think it's specific to Ultramarines though, as the BA dex is equally bad.

That's part of it, but I think it's also that the many chapters using codex Space Marines relate differently to the Ultras than say BA successors do to Dante's crew. For one thing, they are all successors. You don't see the BA dex being used to represent chapters from other gene-stock, so there's no "wounded pride" aspect of what about Corax or Dorn or Vulcan when the BA dex talks about Sanguinius. We're all pretty used to the idea that a given codex will "talk up" the army in the codex, but here we are seeing the Raven Guard and the Salamanders and Imperial Fists effectively treated as "just another" codex chapter that wants to be like the Ultras instead of their own legion and their own history and personality. It's pretty clear to me how that would lead to a bit of resentment, when a 2nd founding bunch like the Templars can get their own codex list but a first founding legion gets special character scraps off of Marneus Calgar's table.

I am actually kind of pissed off at Guilliman right now after starting The First Heretic.

I'm more pissed at the Emperor though. He really has problems with his personnel management skills.

Lorgar got what he deserved!

The hell you say!

No lickspittle servant of the false emperor deserves any kind of praise. Especially not those who wear blue armour ( blue with egyptian style helmets is ok btw, don't want to be turned into a toad after all ).
I mean, blue, BLUE! Only Fulgrim's depraved legion wears a more hideous colourscheme...
Ah well, back to sulking in the eye of terror. Haven't yet reached my required level of bitterness for today.

But the cowardly servants of warp creatures do?
Those too afraid of BLUE space marines?

Will be a ton of fun when the OP returns.....

KingDeath wrote:No lickspittle servant of the false emperor deserves any kind of praise. Especially not those who wear blue armour ( blue with egyptian style helmets is ok btw, don't want to be turned into a toad after all ).
I mean, blue, BLUE! Only Fulgrim's depraved legion wears a more hideous colourscheme...
Ah well, back to sulking in the eye of terror. Haven't yet reached my required level of bitterness for today.

Sorry, but tzeentch's legions are even worse! I mean, they're all flashy pink, bright blue or sparkling purple! How hideous and depraved is that? Furthermore, their main troop choice consists of howling, mutated marshmallows! I prefer the Ultrasmurfs!