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Post by: moonshine
Hi everyone
I've been looking for raven guard backround but all I have found is the basics (the dropsite massacre, corax trying to clone them, their tactics) but I can't really find anything else about them. I would appreciate it if anybod else told me more about them.
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Post by: shrike
there really isn't that much fluff on them. try:
http://www.bolterandchainsword.com/index.php?autocom=ineo&showarticle=316
Things to remember:
not ALL raven guard have red shoulder trim.
chapter master is unnamed.
the captains of the 1st, 6th, 7th, 8th and 9th are unnamed.
the older the raven guard, the blacker the hair and the whiter the skin. scouts- normal. marines- pale & dark. captains/chaplains/libbies/techmarines- very pale & very dark. chapter master/master of sanctity/ MOTF/chief libby- white & black.
If you have any questions, feel free to PM me.
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Post by: kizzdougs
GW has only produced a few books and audio books in wich the RG are featured.
They make appearances in 'The Chapter's Due', Raven's flight, Hellion Rain, Cadian Blood, The First Heretic, Fulgrim and in one of the FW Imperial armour books. A very cool chapter.
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Post by: moonshine
In the books you just listed they do really cool thing, especially when they load drop pods with explosives 
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Post by: nerdfest09
Sneaky sneaky sneaky,......then jump out and Killy,killy killy! what could be more fun than that, scouting and infiltrating, Ah the joy brings a tear to my eye, part of me now doesn't want to sell mine :-( but...projects move on.
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Post by: Laodamia
The Raven Guard? They're just the emo of the 41st millenium.
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Post by: nerdfest09
@ laodamia, Yep they are, except they just cut everyone else! ;-)
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Post by: Kanluwen
moonshine wrote:Hi everyone
I've been looking for raven guard backround but all I have found is the basics (the dropsite massacre, corax trying to clone them, their tactics) but I can't really find anything else about them. I would appreciate it if anybod else told me more about them.
There's not very much to go on, frankly.
You've got the basics of their appearance:
They've got a pale grey tinge to their flesh and black hair. Their eyes are black, all the way through.
They're very independent and give lots of leeway to their commanders in terms of deployment.
They have a rank, called "Shadow-Captain", which is used as an honorific for members of the Chapter who've committed great deeds.
They're pragmatists, first and foremost. They're not above having their veteran battle-brothers garb themselves in Scout Armor and go hunting for enemy commanders with sniper rifles.
They're also, much like the Space Wolves, commonly known for their views on working alongside Guard regiments namely: they're more "humanitarian" than most Astartes Chapters are, who view Guard with disdain--if not open scorn.
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Post by: NagothDaCleaver
Corax was awesome in The first Heretic
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Post by: shrike
kizzdougs wrote:GW has only produced a few books and audio books in wich the RG are featured.
They make appearances in 'The Chapter's Due', Raven's flight, Hellion Rain, Cadian Blood, The First Heretic, Fulgrim and in one of the FW Imperial armour books. A very cool chapter.
you missed "hunt for voldorius".
moonshine wrote:In the books you just listed they do really cool thing, especially when they load drop pods with explosives
and climb a titan...and have a techmarine, captain and sarge sneak up on telion...and not show up on FRIENDLY auspex...
nerdfest09 wrote:Sneaky sneaky sneaky,......then jump out and Killy,killy killy! what could be more fun than that, scouting and infiltrating, Ah the joy brings a tear to my eye, part of me now doesn't want to sell mine :-( but...projects move on.
aw...how much?
kanwulen wrote:They've got a pale grey tinge to their flesh and black hair.
the older they get, the more pale skin and more blak the hair. When they're scouts, they're normal. They don't start pale and black-haired.
kanwulen wrote:Their eyes are black, all the way through.
where did you get that from? never heard that one before...
kanwulen wrote:They have a rank, called "Shadow-Captain", which is used as an honorific for members of the Chapter who've committed great deeds.
partly true. They call thier captains shadow-captains, because corax said to for some unknown reason.
is the OP starting a RG army? My recommendation- Include subtle references to edgar alan poe's the raven.
corax's last word- "nevermore."
4th company drill sergeant- "sergeant alenpo"
RG saying- "...and by the time our enemies can react...darkness there, and nothing more."
corax translates into "raven."
they have lots of corvus-pattern helmets, which translate into "raven."
get it? This is all in officail fluff.
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Post by: Kanluwen
shrike wrote:
kanluwen wrote:They've got a pale grey tinge to their flesh and black hair.
the older they get, the more pale skin and more black the hair. When they're scouts, they're normal. They don't start pale and black-haired.
Actually, they do. Look in IA8 at the color plate for the Raven Guard Scout.
And read about why he's got camouflage paint on his flesh. It's very enlightening.
kanluwen wrote:Their eyes are black, all the way through.
where did you get that from? never heard that one before...
Pretty much everything about them previously? It's always been mentioned that their eyes are "coal-black".
kanluwen wrote:They have a rank, called "Shadow-Captain", which is used as an honorific for members of the Chapter who've committed great deeds.
partly true. They call their captains shadow-captains, because corax said to for some unknown reason.
Nope. They have distinctive ranks. "Shadow-Captains" are those who are awarded the title by the Chaptermaster. Korvydae and Shrike are two such, but there are normal "Captains" too.
The difference is that a "Shadow-Captain" will likely be afforded more leeway in their operations and be deferred to by a normal captain in operational planning.
is the OP starting a RG army? My recommendation- Include subtle references to edgar alan poe's "The Raven."
corax's last word- "nevermore."
4th company drill sergeant- "sergeant alenpo"
RG saying- "...and by the time our enemies can react...darkness there, and nothing more."
corax translates into "raven."
they have lots of corvus-pattern helmets, which translate into "raven."
get it? This is all in official fluff.
And this is the biggest piece of advice you definitely want to ignore.
A lot of that "official fluff" is from a time when stupid jokes ran rampant throughout 40k background.
They have plenty of normal names(such as Scout-Sergeant Uirroth from the IA8 color-plate), but it's likely that some adopt nom de guerres related to the corvid family.
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Post by: Eumerin
kizzdougs wrote:GW has only produced a few books and audio books in wich the RG are featured.
They make appearances in 'The Chapter's Due', Raven's flight, Hellion Rain, Cadian Blood, The First Heretic, Fulgrim and in one of the FW Imperial armour books. A very cool chapter.
They're also featured in one of the Epic lists on GW's website. The list includes fluff for the campaign (as in military campaign, and not a string of linked missions) that the list is for. The campaign involved a local Raven Guard contingent stationed on the moon of a world that had both human colonists and orks. When the orks suddenly started attacking the human settlements in much larger numbers, the Raven Guard investigated... and discovered that the orks were attempting to migrate away from another threat. Unfortunately for the marines, that discovery was made when they stumbled into an ambush by the Swordwind, which had come to the ancient Exodite world to remove the alien infestation.
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Post by: shrike
Kanluwen wrote:shrike wrote: kanluwen wrote:They've got a pale grey tinge to their flesh and black hair.
the older they get, the more pale skin and more black the hair. When they're scouts, they're normal. They don't start pale and black-haired.
Actually, they do. Look in IA8 at the color plate for the Raven Guard Scout. kanluwen wrote:Their eyes are black, all the way through.
where did you get that from? never heard that one before...
Pretty much everything about them previously? It's always been mentioned that their eyes are "coal-black". ah. I didn't see that on lexicanum and the B&C. kanluwen wrote:They have a rank, called "Shadow-Captain", which is used as an honorific for members of the Chapter who've committed great deeds.
partly true. They call their captains shadow-captains, because corax said to for some unknown reason.
Nope. They have distinctive ranks. "Shadow-Captains" are those who are awarded the title by the Chaptermaster. Korvydae and Shrike are two such, but there are normal "Captains" too. [/quote=the bolter and chainsword]The officers of the Raven Guard are known as Shadow Captains
I thought that meant "officers" as in "captains." My mistake. kanwulen wrote:And this is the biggest piece of advice you definitely want to ignore.
A lot of that "official fluff" is from a time when stupid jokes ran rampant throughout 40k background.
shrike wrote:
[color=red]the raven guard saying was in 4th ed. codex, and maybe 5th, and alenpo is in the 5th ed. codex. Corvus helmets and Corax have been around for yonks, and "nevermore" is from index astartes IIRC.
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Post by: moonshine
shrike wrote: is the OP starting a RG army?.
Yes I am but as a side project but more importantly me and a few friends are starting a rpg type campaign set in the horus heresy so I want to know what to do with my character.
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Post by: shrike
Well, funnily enough, I'm doing a heresy-era raven guard army using the blood angels rulebook. You might find some information: fluff: http://www.dakkadakka.com/wiki/en/User:shrike updates with the army, rules and pics on page 10: http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/334599.page feel free to comment! [/shameless self-promotion]  so you're doing a main heresy-era campaign...and a side of raven guard...why not a heresy-era raven guard army?
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Post by: Kanluwen
Then you're not doing it right.
"Heresy-era Raven Guard", and even nowadays Raven Guard have nothing in common with the Blood Angels.
Jump Pack troops are not a "signature" unit. They're not even a "semi-signature" unit of the Raven Guard.
They're more renowned for their aptitude as scouts and infiltrators.
The jump troops thing is a misnomer that's continually propagated because of the fact that Captain Shrike uses a personal bodyguard of jump troops in campaigns against Orks.
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Post by: moonshine
Nah i considered it but I like the current fluff they have right now.
For the heresy era campaign it is very basic right now but the story is:
After Istvaan some loyalist and chaos marines were unable to leave the planet and had to seize a space hulk floating above the planet. When onboard they becme aware of each other, some ork freebootas, eldar pirates, mutants and some dangerous xeno parrasites who live inside people whilst eating brains (a bit like starship troopers 2). Anyway they all brake out into an all out war and each need control of the hulk to fuffil their own personal needs.
I have got control of 10 raven guard veterans whilst a friend has got control of 5 salamanders and 5 iron hands.
So far things look like there going to be really fun
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Post by: Ribon Fox
Sounds like you might need some industrial towers, maybe some space corridors...
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Post by: moonshine
We probbably will aswell as some eden project type spacce domes (maybe with some eerie plants aswell)
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Post by: Kanluwen
moonshine wrote:We probbably will aswell as some eden project type spacce domes (maybe with some eerie plants aswell)
Do NOT encourage them. It's a bad Dakka meme that needs to be squashed.
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Post by: shrike
Kanluwen wrote:Then you're not doing it right.
"Heresy-era Raven Guard", and even nowadays Raven Guard have nothing in common with the Blood Angels.
Jump Pack troops are not a "signature" unit. They're not even a "semi-signature" unit of the Raven Guard.
They're more renowned for their aptitude as scouts and infiltrators.
The jump troops thing is a misnomer that's continually propagated because of the fact that Captain Shrike uses a personal bodyguard of jump troops in campaigns against Orks.
they are semi-signature unit. When I mention raven guard, people think "scouts and assault troops."
the genetic fault that raven guard had- red thirst.
the primarch's retinue- sanguinary guard
stormraven- it has raven in the name, and it'd be the sort of thing they'd use. Lots.
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Post by: Kanluwen
What "genetic fault that Raven Guard had"? Are you referring to Corax's "abominations"?
That wasn't anything at all to do with the Raven Guard.
It was the cloning attempts that Corax tried.
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Post by: moonshine
No the raven guards skin goes pale white, their hair and eyes turn black. The Betchers gland and Mucranoid organs no longer exsist either. Raven guard don't like blood angels beacuse they think they are clumsy beacuse they preffer to charge head on.
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Post by: shrike
Kanluwen wrote:What "genetic fault that Raven Guard had"? Are you referring to Corax's "abominations"?
That wasn't anything at all to do with the Raven Guard.
It was the cloning attempts that Corax tried.
yes. I read somewhere that about 1 in 100 were fit for service, and sometimes they later turned into abominations.
moonshine wrote:No the raven guards skin goes pale white, their hair and eyes turn black. The Betchers gland and Mucranoid organs no longer exsist either. Raven guard don't like blood angels beacuse they think they are clumsy beacuse they preffer to charge head on.
In my armie's fluff they AREN'T blood angels, I just use them for counts-as. I've got the green in my LGS, and the fluff, if I do say so myself, makes a lot of sense, is useable in C: BA, and still suits the raven guard.
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Post by: moonshine
I thought about using the ba codex but decided to use regualar marines just so I could use shrikes rules
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Post by: Kanluwen
shrike wrote:Kanluwen wrote:What "genetic fault that Raven Guard had"? Are you referring to Corax's "abominations"?
That wasn't anything at all to do with the Raven Guard.
It was the cloning attempts that Corax tried.
yes. I read somewhere that about 1 in 100 were fit for service, and sometimes they later turned into abominations.
Yeah, well you read wrong. The "abominations" were something that only happened in the ending days of the Horus Heresy, and were promptly destroyed after they were used in one engagement.
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Post by: reds8n
...probably anyway.
It would seem from the latest IA book that.. well.. perhaps not all of those experiments ended back then. In some form or other anyway.
The audio CD "Helion Rain" also features the Raven Guard.
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Post by: shrike
Kanluwen wrote:shrike wrote:Kanluwen wrote:What "genetic fault that Raven Guard had"? Are you referring to Corax's "abominations"?
That wasn't anything at all to do with the Raven Guard.
It was the cloning attempts that Corax tried.
yes. I read somewhere that about 1 in 100 were fit for service, and sometimes they later turned into abominations.
Yeah, well you read wrong. The "abominations" were something that only happened in the ending days of the Horus Heresy, and were promptly destroyed after they were used in one engagement.
it never said that there was one engagement with them- one was confirmed, but that was only because raven guard were fighting with an ally. There may have been lots of engagements that raven guard might have done alone- it's not as if raven guard are gonna report thier forbidden methods.
And please read about my army before you dismiss it. The era which my army is from just happens to be in the ending days of the horus heresy, just before the introduction of the codex astartes, when the abominations where made.
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Post by: Kanluwen
From IA8? I didn't see anything in there suggesting the abominations weren't killed.
But yeah. Huron was trying something vaguely similar, except using the geneseed he had at hand which was far more stable.
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Post by: shrike
Kanluwen wrote:From IA8? I didn't see anything in there suggesting the abominations weren't killed.
But yeah. Huron was trying something vaguely similar, except using the geneseed he had at hand which was far more stable.
they were killed, but my army is from the time before they were killed.
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Post by: Alpharius
The Index Astartes article about the Raven Guard is an excellent source of info, and as a bonus it doesn't have anything in it that contradicts 'current' background.
Well, other than the fact that GW themselves often forget how to correctly paint the shoulder pad trim...
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Post by: shrike
Alpharius wrote:The Index Astartes article about the Raven Guard is an excellent source of info, and as a bonus it doesn't have anything in it that contradicts 'current' background.
Well, other than the fact that GW themselves often forget how to correctly paint the shoulder pad trim...
yeah, that does get annoying. Shrike's army in 4th ed. codex has red trim because they're from the 3rd company? But only assault marines have red trim? Wait, what?!
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Post by: Alpharius
I choose to go with the superior IA scheme.
Red for assault, green to tactical, yellow for devastator.
I also am going to paint up a lot of them with the Pre-Heresy symbols for the various squads:
(Pre-Heresy on the left, "Modern" on the right!)
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Post by: Kanluwen
My personal theory is that it's an example of Shrike's squads using psychological warfare.
After all, Shrike and his boys are pretty much only operating in a sector where they're fighting Orks. Red stripes on Astartes when seen by the Orks-- would be like Crux Terminatus'd Night Lords to the Guard.
An "Oh balls..." moment.
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Post by: shrike
Alpharius wrote:I choose to go with the superior IA scheme.
Red for assault, green to tactical, yellow for devastator.
I also am going to paint up a lot of them with the Pre-Heresy symbols for the various squads:
(Pre-Heresy on the left, "Modern" on the right!)
Thanks for those! I'll be painting those on my heresy-era guys...
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Post by: Alpharius
I live to serve... 
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Post by: moonshine
Those marking are a huge help, thanks Alpharius.
Does anybody know the names of the chpter master and the othe shadow captians apart from Shrike and Korvydae.
In the codex it shows the personal heraldy of captain "Ravenclaw" who is he ?
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Post by: shrike
moonshine wrote:Those marking are a huge help, thanks Alpharius.
Does anybody know the names of the chpter master and the othe shadow captians apart from Shrike and Korvydae.
In the codex it shows the personal heraldy of captain "Ravenclaw" who is he ?
2nd capt.- aajaz solari
4th- aethon shaan
dunno ravenclaw, and chapter master is unknown, but I have a SC for him, named Areth Caan.
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Post by: KamikazeCanuck
shrike wrote:there really isn't that much fluff on them. try:
http://www.bolterandchainsword.com/index.php?autocom=ineo&showarticle=316
Things to remember:
not ALL raven guard have red shoulder trim.
chapter master is unnamed.
the captains of the 1st, 6th, 7th, 8th and 9th are unnamed.
the older the raven guard, the blacker the hair and the whiter the skin. scouts- normal. marines- pale & dark. captains/chaplains/libbies/techmarines- very pale & very dark. chapter master/master of sanctity/ MOTF/chief libby- white & black.
If you have any questions, feel free to PM me.
I just learned that the Raven Guard's motto is the same as my Clan's motto. Now I like them even more!
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Post by: shrike
victory or death?
victorus aut mortis?
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Post by: moonshine
The only problem is your the raven guard mean it litteraly. Only say it if you are planning to die if you lose btw what do you mean by "clan" (corax said that ).
Btw they're motto is latin. I will paint it onto tanks and would it make sence to paint "forever more" onto dreads and tanks?
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Post by: KamikazeCanuck
shrike wrote:victory or death?
victorus aut mortis?
Yes but mine would be in Gaelic. Vincere vel Mori.
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Post by: shrike
moonshine wrote:The only problem is your the raven guard mean it litteraly. Only say it if you are planning to die if you lose btw what do you mean by "clan" (corax said that ).
Btw they're motto is latin. I will paint it onto tanks and would it make sence to paint "forever more" onto dreads and tanks?
yep, latin. My raven guard either win, or die in suicide assaults. Like if I've got no troops in an objective game, I do stuff like charge my captain into 10 terminators, or something equally crazy.
"nevermore" is better IMO.
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Post by: KamikazeCanuck
That was Corax. I wonder what he meant by that?
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Post by: moonshine
It meant his mistakes will torment him for the rest of his life and that he cannot escape death. If you want the technical version:
The meaning is the same in all the uses. It is only the question and the reaction that escalate around the unchanging reiteration. from the inital shock when the omen speaks a ftting reply that dashes his reverie of his mistakes to despair, he becomes defensive and playful, then trapped deeper and deeper as he himself plays out the conversation with the omen. "Nevermore" then at last becomes his tragic state buried in the shadow of hopeless remembrance under its oppressive verdict.
So basicly corax told everyone he was going to die beacuse it was the only way his failures would not torment his memories.
Btw I might call the chapter masters gun or landraider lenor what do you think?
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Post by: KamikazeCanuck
moonshine wrote:It meant his mistakes will torment him for the rest of his life and that he cannot escape death. If you want the technical version:
The meaning is the same in all the uses. It is only the question and the reaction that escalate around the unchanging reiteration. from the inital shock when the omen speaks a ftting reply that dashes his reverie of his mistakes to despair, he becomes defensive and playful, then trapped deeper and deeper as he himself plays out the conversation with the omen. "Nevermore" then at last becomes his tragic state buried in the shadow of hopeless remembrance under its oppressive verdict.
What? Sure that's not some analysis of Poe?
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Post by: moonshine
It is an analysis of poe but the term applies to everytime the word "nevermore is used" corax mistakes represent lenor in the poe "the raven"
I might paint refrences to the poem on my vehicle beacuse I love the poem on to of the landraider assult hatch I might paint "thy chamber door" what do you think
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Post by: KamikazeCanuck
moonshine wrote:It is an analysis of poe but the term applies to everytime the word "nevermore is used" corax mistakes represent lenor in the poe "the raven"
I might paint refrences to the poem on my vehicle beacuse I love the poem on to of the landraider assult hatch I might paint "thy chamber door" what do you think
That would sweet.
Do you not think its about loss though? He's lost his Legion, Brothers, Father and The Imperium which he truly believed in. They represent Lenore? Shall I ever be reunited with Lenore? Nevermore?
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Post by: moonshine
Yes it is abot loss and his clones represent lenor and he lost his the character in the raven lost lenor
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Post by: KamikazeCanuck
Ah, poetic analysis and discussion of Corax and Poe and their cloning. You never know what you're going to find on the Dakka.
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Post by: shrike
moonshine wrote:Btw I might call the chapter masters gun or landraider lenor what do you think?
nice- I always imagined the CM wielding LC's, because shrike, corax and shaan do/did. I always thought it was Lenor e.
KamikazeCanuck wrote:moonshine wrote:It meant his mistakes will torment him for the rest of his life and that he cannot escape death. If you want the technical version:
moonshine wrote:It is an analysis of poe but the term applies to everytime the word "nevermore is used" corax mistakes represent lenor in the poe "the raven"
I might paint refrences to the poem on my vehicle beacuse I love the poem on to of the landraider assult hatch I might paint "thy chamber door" what do you think
My leader is called "Lenore", commander of the Muninn company.
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Post by: moonshine
Oh yeah if forgot the e in lenore. If the chapter master weilds two lightinig claws I will call the jump pack lenore. I will be using Astorath the grim's wings and jum jump pack.
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Post by: shrike
moonshine wrote:Oh yeah if forgot the e in lenore. If the chapter master weilds two lightinig claws I will call the jump pack lenore. I will be using Astorath the grim's wings and jum jump pack.
nice idea! I call my chapter master's jump pack "the wings of corax", said to have been used by corax himself in the aftermath of the istvaan dropsite massacre.
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Post by: Kanluwen
Corax didn't use a jump pack on Istvaan. 
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Post by: shrike
Kanluwen wrote:Corax didn't use a jump pack on Istvaan.
shrike wrote:in the aftermath of the istvaan dropsite massacre.
the aftermath. As in, after he got extracted, in the clean-up missions that followed.
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Post by: Kanluwen
Still didn't use one! Automatically Appended Next Post: Just remember: the Raven Guard didn't do that much during the Heresy itself. Their numbers were too depleted from Istvaan for them to really operate, mostly they withdrew to Deliverance and reorganized.
It wasn't until the end and the 'abominations' that they really got involved in-depth against Horus and the traitors..
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Post by: moonshine
Corax did not use A jump pack but he could fly with mechanical wings. On istvaan corax fought curze and curze says "Do not fly away little raven. Stay. We are not finished you and I" which proves corax could fly. Come to think of it Corax should have killed lorgar when he had the chance. Also corax had completly black eyes and pale white skin, but you probably know that already
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Post by: Kanluwen
Uh, you realize "fly" in that context was just meaning "don't run away"
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Post by: moonshine
It also said "shimmering wings of dark metal reached up from his shoulders into the air above" - thats from the first heretic when it describes corax
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Post by: shrike
Kanluwen wrote:Uh, you realize "fly" in that context was just meaning "don't run away"
the only primarch to have wings (without being a DP) was sanguinius.
Corax has very limited fluff- he was born on lycaeus, led an uprising, renamed it deliverance, the emprah arrived, he became an astartes, he nearly killed lorgar, but Konrad Curze stepped in, he lost 98% of his legion at istvaan, he made a load of abominations using forbidden technology, he killed each one because they were abominations, then he locked himself in the highest room in ravenspire, came out and flew into the eye of terror saying "nevermore".
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Post by: moonshine
He also had skin whiter than imperail marble and completly black eyes, he disagreed with horus after corax was asked to help the luna wolves many times in the great crusade, his tactics were legendery during the great crusade.
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Post by: shrike
moonshine wrote:He also had skin whiter than imperail marble and completly black eyes, he disagreed with horus after corax was asked to help the luna wolves many times in the great crusade, his tactics were legendery during the great crusade.
is that black eyes completely or black irises?
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Post by: moonshine
completelly black, some raven guard also have completly black eyes. Do you think it would be a good idea to paint the eyes on my raven guard completly black?, I might paint eyes on veteran helmets black or the eyes on every space marine helmet aswell
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Post by: shrike
moonshine wrote:completelly black, some raven guard also have completly black eyes. Do you think it would be a good idea to paint the eyes on my raven guard completly black?, I might paint eyes on veteran helmets black or the eyes on every space marine helmet aswell
well, veterans have white helmets, so black on there is a good idea. black lenses on black helmets? Not so much.
Can you post a link of the site that says this? I'd like to read into it more.
I might have to re-do a few of my raven guard now...
namely my chapter master, scout sergeant and a couple of veterans.
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Post by: moonshine
it is in the first heretic, it describes corax alot and it says corax had black eyes. Here is the site that says some raven guard have black eyes http://www.bolterandchainsword.com/index.php?autocom=ineo&showarticle=316 more specifically it says Even further degeneration in the gene-seed has caused several of the implants to fail, the Betcher’s Gland and Mucranoid no longer exist within the gene-seed of the Raven Guard, and other defects cause recruits to over time have their skin become paler until it is as white as their Primarch’s, and the eyes and hair of the Astartes will eventually become a deep black.
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Post by: shrike
Kanluwen wrote:Still didn't use one!
Kanluwen wrote:Corax didn't use a jump pack
the bolter and chainsword wrote:The Primarch of the Raven Guard was a taciturn and subtle warrior but a warrior nonetheless and during the Battle for Istvaan V Corax assumed a terrible and vengeful aspect, his winged jump pack and razor claws reaping a heavy toll on the ranks of the vile Word Bearers
see? Although in raven's flight corax didn't use a JP, he did use one on Istvaan. He also didn't have LC's in raven's flight, rather a heavy bolter and barbed whip.
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Post by: moonshine
corax never used a jp he used wings forged by the mechanicum, the wings were powerfull enough to let corax fly
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Post by: Kanluwen
shrike wrote:Kanluwen wrote:Still didn't use one!
Kanluwen wrote:Corax didn't use a jump pack
the bolter and chainsword wrote:The Primarch of the Raven Guard was a taciturn and subtle warrior but a warrior nonetheless and during the Battle for Istvaan V Corax assumed a terrible and vengeful aspect, his winged jump pack and razor claws reaping a heavy toll on the ranks of the vile Word Bearers
see? Although in raven's flight corax didn't use a JP, he did use one on Istvaan. He also didn't have LC's in raven's flight, rather a heavy bolter and barbed whip.
Cite the source. Because "Raven's Flight" makes no mention of him using a jump pack(mechanical winged or otherwise) or employing lightning claws.
And by the way?
If you're trying to tie Shrike's Lightning Claws to Corax as "his"--they've never been said to have belonged to Corax.
The previous edition of C: SM detailed "The Raven's Talons" and their origins.
Specifically: "Said to have been crafted by Corax himself on Deliverance after the Istvaan V massacre"
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Post by: shrike
Kanluwen wrote:shrike wrote:Kanluwen wrote:Still didn't use one!
Kanluwen wrote:Corax didn't use a jump pack
the bolter and chainsword wrote:The Primarch of the Raven Guard was a taciturn and subtle warrior but a warrior nonetheless and during the Battle for Istvaan V Corax assumed a terrible and vengeful aspect, his winged jump pack and razor claws reaping a heavy toll on the ranks of the vile Word Bearers
see? Although in raven's flight corax didn't use a JP, he did use one on Istvaan. He also didn't have LC's in raven's flight, rather a heavy bolter and barbed whip.
Cite the source. Because "Raven's Flight" makes no mention of him using a jump pack(mechanical winged or otherwise) or employing lightning claws.
And by the way?
If you're trying to tie Shrike's Lightning Claws to Corax as "his"--they've never been said to have belonged to Corax.
Specifically: "Said to have been crafted by Corax himself on Deliverance after the Istvaan V massacre"
The previous edition of C: SM detailed "The Raven's Talons" and their origins.
quote where I said that shrike's LCs were used by corax. I never said that.
the source? B&C. I said.
I said- HE DIDN'T USE A JP OR LC'S IN RAVEN'S FLIGHT.
He did, however, use a jump pack and LC's to nearly kill lorgar, before Curze broke it up.
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Post by: moonshine
Hang on a miniute, If each primarch was supposed to represent an aspect of the Emporer what did Corax represent
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Post by: shrike
moonshine wrote:Hang on a miniute, If each primarch was supposed to represent an aspect of the Emporer what did Corax represent
he is the only primarch to remember (though vaguely) his father.
he also is the stealthy, cunning one.
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Post by: moonshine
Yes but what aspect of the emporer does he represent ? for example.
Fulgrim represents the emporers wanting of perfection
Kurze represents the emporers sence of justice
Jhonson represents the emporers logic
But what does Corax repressent?
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Post by: shrike
moonshine wrote:Yes but what aspect of the emporer does he represent ? for example.
Fulgrim represents the emporers wanting of perfection
Kurze represents the emporers sence of justice
Jhonson represents the emporers logic
But what does Corax repressent?
the emperor's sense of patience for the opportune moment?
the emperor's sense of forethought and careful planning?
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Post by: moonshine
He could represent the emporers shadow?
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Post by: shrike
moonshine wrote:He could represent the emporers shadow?
well, raven guard are quiet, stealthy, tactical...cunning. that's the best word for them. Cunning ,swift and stealthy.
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Post by: moonshine
But the emporer was not stealthy, he was a good tactician and very swift but white scars are more swift.
Maybe raven guard represent the emporers independance?
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Post by: shrike
moonshine wrote:But the emporer was not stealthy, he was a good tactician and very swift but white scars are more swift.
Maybe raven guard represent the emporers independance?
you have a point.
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Post by: Alpharius
Kan - you HAVE read "THE FIRST HERETIC", right?
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Post by: Kanluwen
Nope, and if ADB did something silly with Corax I'll make certain he pays for it!
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Post by: moonshine
ADB makes corax very bad ass, he kills about 294 possesed csm (there were 300 gal vorbak and after they chrarge corax there were only 6 (including argel tal))
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Post by: Kanluwen
That's fine and all, but mechanical wings are dumb.
Especially for a Primarch whose whole schtick is pragmatism.
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Post by: Alpharius
Well, in that book,
Kan, you can click the first one, but maybe not this one! -
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Post by: Kanluwen
Meh. Then I'll pass on "The First Heretic"
It was pretty damned low on my list, despite being an ADB book simply because I care so very little about the Word Bearers.
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Post by: moonshine
Yes but it details why the horus heresy started, the best book is mechanicum though
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Post by: Kanluwen
Uh, I know why the Horus Heresy started just fine without having to read a book where Corax flies around like a steampunk Peter Pan tyvm.
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Post by: shrike
Kanluwen wrote:Uh, you realize "fly" in that context was just meaning "don't run away"
Kanluwen wrote:shrike wrote:Kanluwen wrote:Still didn't use one!
Kanluwen wrote:Corax didn't use a jump pack
the bolter and chainsword wrote:The Primarch of the Raven Guard was a taciturn and subtle warrior but a warrior nonetheless and during the Battle for Istvaan V Corax assumed a terrible and vengeful aspect, his winged jump pack and razor claws reaping a heavy toll on the ranks of the vile Word Bearers
see? Although in raven's flight corax didn't use a JP, he did use one on Istvaan. He also didn't have LC's in raven's flight, rather a heavy bolter and barbed whip.
Cite the source...no mention of him using a jump pack (mechanical winged or otherwise) or employing lightning claws.
And by the way?
If you're trying to tie Shrike's Lightning Claws to Corax as "his"--they've never been said to have belonged to Corax.
The previous edition of C: SM detailed "The Raven's Talons" and their origins.
Specifically: "Said to have been crafted by Corax himself on Deliverance after the Istvaan V massacre"
Alpharius wrote:Kan - you HAVE read "THE FIRST HERETIC", right?
Kanluwen wrote:Nope, and if ADB did something silly with Corax I'll make certain he pays for it!
Don't deny fluff from a book you haven't read. I haven't read it either, but before you go belittling chapter fluff like that, at least read an article from the B&C, 40k wiki or lexicanum first.
That's all I'm gonna say.
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Post by: Kanluwen
That's not "Chapter fluff" and it's not on 40kwiki or Lexicanum.
So yeah. It's not fluff, as far as I'm concerned.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
And as a sidenote:
The Horus Heresy came about for one reason, and one reason only.
Lorgar had daddy issues.
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Post by: shrike
Kanluwen wrote:That's not "Chapter fluff" and it's not on 40kwiki or Lexicanum.
So yeah. It's not fluff, as far as I'm concerned.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
And as a sidenote:
The Horus Heresy came about for one reason, and one reason only.
Lorgar had daddy issues.
I said an article LIKE that.
It IS fluff.
It IS chapter fluff, since it is FLUFF about the CHAPTER.
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Post by: Kanluwen
No, it's fluff about the WORD BEARERS told from THEIR PERSPECTIVE.
Of course in their tale, Lorgar beats Corax.
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Post by: shrike
Kanluwen wrote:No, it's fluff about the WORD BEARERS told from THEIR PERSPECTIVE.
Of course in their tale, Lorgar beats Corax.
But we are all agreed it's fluff, and includes information about the raven guard. Thus, it contains RAVEN GUARD FLUFF.
It's like chapter's due- it's about iron warriors fighting ultramarines, but still includes fluff about raven guard.
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Post by: 1hadhq
Wouldn't like to miss FH.
Fascinating when they have to kneel before the one and only true master of Mankind.
So if any critics are valid, ADB should have gone with "corax kills lorgar and the subordinates ( kor P. and erebus ) run the Legion in the name of L. "
As, this Arch heretic isn't neccessary at all, sitting around and writing pamphlets....it wouldn't make a difference without him.
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Post by: shrike
1hadhq wrote:So if any critics are valid, ADB should have gone with "corax kills lorgar and the subordinates ( kor P. and erebus ) run the Legion in the name of L. "
Corax nearly killed Lorgar, but got stopped by Kurze.
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Post by: moonshine
Kan read the book before you talk about it, if you did you would know Corax beats Lorgar but dose not have time to kill him beacuse he wants to know why Lorgar betrayed the emporer. Corax stabs Lorgar but Kurze intervenes and fight Corax whilst Lorgar is in shock, then Corax flies away. Also when it describes what the word beares see when Corax emerges it says he had black wings.
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Post by: Kanluwen
Wait, so you're saying that it was a vision of Corax emerging with black wings?
...
Which one is it? Mechanical wings or black wings or people just making crap up as they go along to justify them wanting Corax with wings?
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Post by: shrike
Kanluwen wrote:Wait, so you're saying that it was a vision of Corax emerging with black wings?
...
Which one is it? Mechanical wings or black wings or people just making crap up as they go along to justify them wanting Corax with wings?
Or there's the possibility of corax having BLACK MECHANICAL WINGS. 
It wasn't a vision- you think a whole few LEGIONS had the same vision?
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Post by: moonshine
They were black and mechanical wings. It specifically says "shimmering wings of black metal reached up from his shoulders" and it was not a vision either.
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Post by: Kanluwen
shrike wrote:Kanluwen wrote:Wait, so you're saying that it was a vision of Corax emerging with black wings?
...
Which one is it? Mechanical wings or black wings or people just making crap up as they go along to justify them wanting Corax with wings?
Or there's the possibility of corax having BLACK MECHANICAL WINGS.
Facepalm yourself. His statement fits perfectly with the fact that ADB mentioned quite a bit of the book is supposed to be 'visions that were shown to Lorgar'.
It wasn't a vision- you think a whole few LEGIONS had the same vision?
Because clearly there's no possibility for mass visions in a setting where psychics are commonplace, and Horus was misled by one of the Word Bearers who was shown by the Snake Lodge how to 'spiritwalk'?
Yeah. Think about that one for a minute there.
What's that? You being wrong? Oh. Fun! 
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Post by: shrike
Kanluwen wrote:shrike wrote:Kanluwen wrote:Wait, so you're saying that it was a vision of Corax emerging with black wings?
...
Which one is it? Mechanical wings or black wings or people just making crap up as they go along to justify them wanting Corax with wings?
Or there's the possibility of corax having BLACK MECHANICAL WINGS.
Facepalm yourself. His statement fits perfectly with the fact that ADB mentioned quite a bit of the book is supposed to be 'visions that were shown to Lorgar'.
so he had black wings in a vision, but in "reality" he had mechanical wings?
It wasn't a vision- you think a whole few LEGIONS had the same vision?
Because clearly there's no possibility for mass visions in a setting where psychics are commonplace, and Horus was misled by one of the Word Bearers who was shown by the Snake Lodge how to 'spiritwalk'?
Yeah. Think about that one for a minute there.
What's that? You being wrong? Oh. Fun!
I stand corrected there. No need to be so sarky. Remember rule #1.
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Post by: Alpharius
The thingws we argue about! 
It is pretty clear that Corax is flying about the battlefield - now, as we know he doesn't have wings ala Sanguinius, he clearly is using some sort of jump pack technology.
It isn't that horrible, is it?
Wait! I'll answer!
No, it isn't!
In fact, you're doing yourself a disservice by NOT reading this book!
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Post by: 1hadhq
Kanluwen wrote:Wait, so you're saying that it was a vision of Corax emerging with black wings?
...
Which one is it? Mechanical wings or black wings or people just making crap up as they go along to justify them wanting Corax with wings?
HH, First Heretic.
page 454:
page 444:
And?
Interested now in FH?
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Post by: Kanluwen
The only way I find this to be acceptable is if it's something he used the once or as a kind of 'ceremonial' aspect.
Otherwise it's just so bloody stupid. Automatically Appended Next Post: 1hadhq wrote:Kanluwen wrote:Wait, so you're saying that it was a vision of Corax emerging with black wings?
...
Which one is it? Mechanical wings or black wings or people just making crap up as they go along to justify them wanting Corax with wings?
HH, First Heretic.
page 454:
See, now that description is much better than the halfassed one I've been getting.
So it's not really "mechanical wings" but it's a "jetpack that has wings attached to it"?
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Post by: 1hadhq
Its retractable claws and retractable wings.
So nothing gets in the way until you need the weapons and "unsheath" them.
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Post by: Kanluwen
Yeah, that's much less dumb than "hurr he haz wingz!"
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Post by: shrike
Kanluwen wrote:The only way I find this to be acceptable is if it's something he used the once or as a kind of 'ceremonial' aspect.
Otherwise it's just so bloody stupid.
HH, First Heretic.
page 454:
See, now that description is much better than the halfassed one I've been getting.
So it's not really "mechanical wings" but it's a "jetpack that has wings attached to it"?
Kanluwen wrote:Yeah, that's much less dumb than "hurr he haz wingz!"
moonshine wrote:They were black and mechanical wings. It specifically says "shimmering wings of black metal reached up from his shoulders" and it was not a vision either.
I give my most sincere apologies, Kan, but before you have a go at me, I haven't read it either- I was going on what the others tell me.
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Post by: moonshine
Yeah I horgot about the jump pack, but the fact the wings could retract would prove they are mechanical. But it is still really annoying that he did'nt kill Lorgar
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Post by: shrike
moonshine wrote:Yeah I horgot about the jump pack, but the fact the wings could retract would prove they are mechanical. But it is still really annoying that he did'nt kill Lorgar
yeah, he was one of the most badass primarchs adn the equivalent of a ninja, and he didn't kill a primarch. 
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Post by: moonshine
I was so p***ed of that he didn't finish Lorgar, and he probably have killed Kurze by attacking him while he was facing Lorgar. Lorgar got lucky in my opinion
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Post by: Korcheski
Another piece of fluff introduced in IA10, the Carcharodons are reputed to be a successor chapter to the the RG. However they are one of the cursed foundings (reportedly), but they do have the pure black eyes and lens like the Raven Guard.
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Post by: -Cypher-
Kanluwen wrote:Then you're not doing it right.
"Heresy-era Raven Guard", and even nowadays Raven Guard have nothing in common with the Blood Angels.
Jump Pack troops are not a "signature" unit. They're not even a "semi-signature" unit of the Raven Guard.
They're more renowned for their aptitude as scouts and infiltrators.
The jump troops thing is a misnomer that's continually propagated because of the fact that Captain Shrike uses a personal bodyguard of jump troops in campaigns against Orks.
A bit take from the Lexicanum's article on the Raven Guard which both reinforces and goes against what Kanluwen has stated. Just providing relevant data.
The Raven Guard disdain the notion of recklessly charging into enemy ranks. This differentiates their tactics from those of the Blood Angels. The Raven Guard rely heavily on their Scouts for pinpointing enemy positions and to scout for good drop sites. Because of their hit and run tactics they also make extensive use of Assault Squads. The Tactical Squads of the Raven Guard are often deployed via Thunderhawks or Drop Pods. The favorite weapons of the Raven Guard Commanders are the Lightning Claws and it is a common sight that their command squads also come equiped with these weapons in addition to their Jump Packs.
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Post by: Alpharius
I think that comes from the excellent old Index Astartes article - and really, making extensive use of jump packs definitely fits in with their preferred style of warfare - hit and run guerrilla warfare!
Plus on top of that, their home world is, basically, a Forge World...
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Post by: shrike
-Cypher- wrote:A bit take from the Lexicanum's article on the Raven Guard which both reinforces and goes against what Kanluwen has stated. Just providing relevant data.
The Raven Guard disdain the notion of recklessly charging into enemy ranks. This differentiates their tactics from those of the Blood Angels. The Raven Guard rely heavily on their Scouts for pinpointing enemy positions and to scout for good drop sites. Because of their hit and run tactics they also make extensive use of Assault Squads. The Tactical Squads of the Raven Guard are often deployed via Thunderhawks or Drop Pods. The favorite weapons of the Raven Guard Commanders are the Lightning Claws and it is a common sight that their command squads also come equiped with these weapons in addition to their Jump Packs.
I'd just like to repeat that my raven guard aren't all reckless in the fluff, so it isn't an issue. The only BA-specific thing I'm using is more assault marines, stormravens, sanguard and sanguinary priests. No reckless units, no reckless warfare, lot of scouts.
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