So the rumor is the next Orc and Goblin book will be a $50 or more hardcover. Since FFG has been doing pretty will with $40 to $50 HCs and FW has been doing $100 books for a while it seems GW is looking to test that price point.

Can anyone confirm that's the format for the Orc book?

And does this mean the GKs and future Codexes will also be $50 HCs?

EDIT - Warseer reports a price of 29,50€ about US$40 a 33% increase from the current book.

when is the orc and goblin book coming out? i don't really follow the timeline of fantasy releases.

March IIRC.

That would suck on several levels, and be good on none I can think of.
A) $50 friggin dollars!
B) Can't get it spiral bound easily
C) Cumbersome
D) I would only have the books for my armies and would download the rest, vs getting them all like now.
E) Listening to people talking about how much GW is ripping us off.

Yeah Feb or March:

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/326761.page


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And yeah, it would mean an end to buying books because an army looks interesting. I'd just get IG, Chaos and =I= in the future.

Would effectively make it 30 Quid over here.
Sure hope this isn't the case

Not sure that's confirmed.

My suspicion would be slightly crossed wires, and a limited edition hardback being available...


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Seriously, they cost far, far more to produce than a paperback, so I don't see GW's cost cutting drive really marrying up with this.

Could well be wrong though. This is just speculation on my count.

£30 for an army book!!

wow, not cool GW, not cool.

If they are, they better be planning to up the page count and dramatically add to the content. Maybe this would be acceptable if they were doing the fabled multi-Codex books like one with 2-4 Space Marine variants all at once.

Mr Mystery wrote:Not sure that's confirmed.

My suspicion would be slightly crossed wires, and a limited edition hardback being available...

I hope so.

Seriously, they cost far, far more to produce than a paperback, so I don't see GW's cost cutting drive really marrying up with this.

Could well be wrong though. This is just speculation on my count.

Not really true. It's been a while since I in publishing but the price difference for producing a HC and PB was not much, just a few bucks, plus I suppose some extra cost in shipping. When I was working on a book in China we upgraded to HC for like a dollar, so the Chinese version was actually a lot nicer than the English.

Then the retail price is anywhere from 50% to 100% more. HCs are high profit items but sell less due to the higher price point. If GW assumes that demand is inelastic (and we have statements from them saying just that) then HC army books that are vital to play the game and need replacing every 4 years (10 years for SoB and Dark Space Elfs ) would make a lot of sense from their PoV. It would depend on how many sales they think they would lose from people buying books just to have them or check them out.

Guess that would be cool as a special edition, but tbh they could only do it with marines, plus costs so who knows.
Be a bit silly though imo, and if they got to cut back on their costs I don't see how they could make it feasible

Edit: just saw what you put Kyoto and maybe they would see it as a money spinner basing it on the fact we would need the books like you said.
I'm now starting to think it's just their kind of caper

Maybe they will do it like Privateer press and have both options available?

Yes, anything higher than £25 would end my interest of buying them for a casual read (and I've bought pretty much all of them at one time or other).

Since this point has been made a number of times so far, I would wonder how much market research GW do if the past evidence didn't so clearly point to bugger all.

I think we've gone over this before. Price rises mean people buy less. Higher barriers of entry mean I would put off starting a new army and would only buy the army books/codexes I need.

NAVARRO wrote:Maybe they will do it like Privateer press and have both options available?

+1. I think that if GW goes the way of hardback armybooks and codices, they'll have to do it this way. I think they'll lose too many purchases otherwise. I can see them releasing the hardcover with wave 1 of the new minis and paperback when they release wave 2. That way, if you want to jump on the bandwagon as soon as it comes out, you have to buy the hardcover. Otherwise, you wait for the paperback or download a pirated copy.

Considering that new rules are a great way to get people to try new models (therefore selling more models), making rulebooks harder to acquire via higher buy-in costs would be pants on head slowed.

if they do that with 40k releases, i'd simply stop buying army books just to be familiar with them. i pretty much pick up every codex for the fluff read (in this edition) as well as to be familiar with the rules (in 3rd edition).


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sourclams wrote:Considering that new rules are a great way to get people to try new models (therefore selling more models), making rulebooks harder to acquire via higher buy-in costs would be pants on head slowed.

is everyone a yahtzee fan now? first HBMC now you!

Everyone would. What you would see is a massive decline in GW rulebook sales and a corresponding increase in .pdf ripoffs pirated online. There's barely any reason to buy a GW codex as-is, even if you play the army. Going exclusively to $50 hardcovers, something that doesn't necessarily sell out in even limited edition initial runs, would be about as smart as putting your pants up on your head and running about, flapping your arms.

NAVARRO wrote:Maybe they will do it like Privateer press and have both options available?

They've tried that before, with a 'Limited Edition' hardcover Marine codex available last edition. Didn't seem to do too well, but then I haven't actually seen sales figures... maybe they just lasted in the webstore so long because they printed a boatload of them.

I own all the 40K codexes currently. Them costing £30 would herald in a new age of me not maintaining that trend because I'm not prepared to spend that kind of money for the pleasure of a casual flick.

sourclams wrote:Considering that new rules are a great way to get people to try new models (therefore selling more models), making rulebooks harder to acquire via higher buy-in costs would be pants on head slowed.

Remember, this is Games Workshop we're talking about. Pants on head slowed is their specialty.

sourclams wrote:Everyone would. What you would see is a massive decline in GW rulebook sales and a corresponding increase in .pdf ripoffs pirated online. There's barely any reason to buy a GW codex as-is, even if you play the army. Going exclusively to $50 hardcovers, something that doesn't necessarily sell out in even limited edition initial runs, would be about as smart as putting your pants up on your head and running about, flapping your arms.

lol, but this IS GW we are talking about.... they've been pricing themselves out of business for that past 8 years

If that happens I am likely to start downloading the books instead of buying them. That is lame.

Bah humbug
Since I bought the O&G Army Book less than 6 months ago they can stuff the new one where the bad moon don't shine

Limited Edition Hard cover codex versions with extra fluff and pictures I can see but as a main codex its just terrible. More expensive and its cumbersome to carry around. The Hardcover fantasy codex is like a big brick.

I will give serious consideration to the pros and cons of illegal downloading.

Sorry, as somebody made the "pants on head slowed" comment, I couldn't resist

Eh, the _current_ cost of army books is a little hard to take let alone a $50 luxury edition. This really hit home when I picked up Warmachine Prime MkII this last weekend. 250+ pages in full colour for $27 Canadian.

I'd probably aquire it by other means. An RPG is a whole game. £30 for a WHOLE GAME is fine.

£30 + ARMY+ RULEBOOK is not cool.

If this is the case GW can feth right off.

/angry

If true, I look forward to the GW spinspeil on how cool these books are for an awesome gaming experience!

That would pretty much guarantee that I never buy another one.

Although I have a few small armies I dont actively play 40k. I have codexes for most of them. Its fairly likely I pick up the new Necron codex, if its at the current price point. For $50 I will surely not buy it. Ill either wait and get one used on ebay or find it in PDF format somewhere.

I'd better see about 300 pages of fluff if they ever went to HC.

Chibi Bodge-Battle wrote:If true, I look forward to the GW spinspeil on how cool these books are for an awesome gaming experience!

The new books will be 4'x4' so you can fold them open and play a game of 40k right there on the book! Convenience!

If there was $50 worth of rules, fluff, painting and modeling content, I wouldn't mind. The rumored Orc rulebook is rumored to be thicker than any other book and full-color, so who knows.

If this does happen, then WHFB is going to be dead to me.
And if it hits 40k :/
Then I may have to find myself a cheaper hobby.
Or go back to Epic/BFG/BB
Or indeed LotR...

alphaomega wrote:
And if it hits 40k :/
Then I may have to find myself a cheaper hobby.
Or go back to Epic/BFG/BB

GW minis + a better rules system = win.

There are several good 25/28mm game systems that offer creations rules. Pick one, recruit your friends, make rules for your armies and play. Best part is you can make you army exactly the way you want it, not how GW (or others) want it.

Flashman wrote:Sorry, as somebody made the "pants on head slowed" comment, I couldn't resist

A-wooble.

Mr Mystery wrote:Seriously, they cost far, far more to produce than a paperback, so I don't see GW's cost cutting drive really marrying up with this.

Could well be wrong though. This is just speculation on my count.

They really don't though, my wife worked for a printer and (unless they were very small print runs) hardbacks only cost marginally more than their equivalent paperbacks. Though the shipping is slightly higher. You look at bestsellers in highstreet bookshops and the hardcover is always double the cost of the paperback, it's nonsense. But people do seem to like hardbacks.

I would buy a really, really good Codex: Sisters of Battle for $50, but I have my doubts that GW has the skills to do it.

I wouldn't buy any of the other books, like I did with the 3.5 Chaos Codex.

plastictrees wrote:

Chibi Bodge-Battle wrote:If true, I look forward to the GW spinspeil on how cool these books are for an awesome gaming experience!

The new books will be 4'x4' so you can fold them open and play a game of 40k right there on the book! Convenience!

Which will also mess up the people planning to 'find a PDF somewhere'

They wouldn't really make them 4'x4'?

Would they?

Seriously I wonder how long before someone realizes that most home scanners are only so large and by making books larger they're really hard to scan. A year or two back DC did something called Wednesday COmics, a comic about the size of a newspaper. It was supposedly to make it feel like reading the Sunday comics but also to defeat scanners.

We'll all be carrying around medieval folios before too long.

Mad4Minis wrote:

alphaomega wrote:
And if it hits 40k :/
Then I may have to find myself a cheaper hobby.
Or go back to Epic/BFG/BB

GW minis + a better rules system = win.

There are several good 25/28mm game systems that offer creations rules. Pick one, recruit your friends, make rules for your armies and play. Best part is you can make you army exactly the way you want it, not how GW (or others) want it.

Something that might be worth looking at in the near future then

methinks army case just to carry the sodding book knowing our luck

This wouldn't change my stance on pirated books. If I wanted to play with a
specific army, I'd pay the fifty dollars for the book or not even bother with the
game at all. (I still haven't bought the 40k rulebook).

This would change my buying habits for casual reading.

At 50USD it better have full color, good photographs of well painted models
and original artwork, and well tested rules.

Hrm.

I recall an argument much like this (though not on here) just before the Libre Chaotica books were released.


My suspicion is that someone has gotten hold of a rumour about a special edition book (like the super-expensive core rulebook special editions that GW do) and has decided to poke the hornets nest with it.

At $20, I bought a lot of Codices. Nearly all of them for 3E.

Then GW bumped the price to $25. For me, softcovers at $25 are a stretch. And I cut back to buying maybe half of them.

Right now, I might pay $5 extra for a hardcover, so my upper price point is $30. The content simply isn't there to justify paying more. And even then, I'd wait until I was really sure I wanted one.

At $50 for a hardcover, no thanks. I'll wait to buy used or on deep discount. If anything, I'll tighten down my Codex buying even further.

On net, the more GW charges, the faster I cut my GW spend. The product is good, but it's not outrageously good enough to justify a superpremium price.

____

@KK: I don't want to carry around super-sized books like the Apoc books. A4, and no larger.

Second, for those really large books, does nobody own a high-resolution digital camera?

Kid_Kyoto wrote:

And does this mean the GKs and future Codexes will also be $50 HCs?

Given GW's horrible tradition of erratta and quality control I hope not. They change editions and make too may rules gaffs to be charging that much for a book that has a limited shelf life...

I already have a problem with paying 25.00-30.00 bucks for a codex that I only want about half of (could care less for the fluff, and hobby sections, they're almost always the same old stuff as on the website, or in the previous edition of the codex). I will admit to owning HC editions of Privateer books, and understand their retail price is more than the current GW codex price, but due to the fact that I bought them during the Black Friday/Cyber Monday sales last year, I paid around Codex Price for them.

The 75.00 WHF rulebook already killed Fantasy in my area (not that it was doing so hot before), and by the time that IoB came out, it was too late. I think a 50 dollar codex would do much the same to enticing any new players into 40k. More so than any of their current prices.

I'm somewhat dismayed at the immediately negative reaction here. $50 buck is terrible, without a doubt, and I too would cease to buy any codex/army book if the company was to make a move that slowed, but isn't this just speculation/a rumor? I mean, it's not been confirmed as far as I'm aware...

All I'm saying is that GW should get the hate when it's confirmed, not when it's speculation...

JohnHwangDD wrote:
@KK: I don't want to carry around super-sized books like the Apoc books. A4, and no larger.

Second, for those really large books, does nobody own a high-resolution digital camera?

Yeah but it's such a hassle to photograph every page and make sure the shot is lined up right and the page is flat and the lighting is good, really you'd have to build a lightbox specific for it and then spend ages cleaning it up in photoshop.

Or uh, so I would assume. Not that I'd ever considered it


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Cryonicleech wrote:

All I'm saying is that GW should get the hate when it's confirmed, not when it's speculation...

Welcome to the internet, you must be new here.

Seriously can ANYONE confirm the Orc and Gobo price? We don't even know that for certain.

Cryonicleech wrote:I'm somewhat dismayed at the immediately negative reaction here. $50 buck is terrible, without a doubt, and I too would cease to buy any codex/army book if the company was to make a move that slowed, but isn't this just speculation/a rumor? I mean, it's not been confirmed as far as I'm aware...

All I'm saying is that GW should get the hate when it's confirmed, not when it's speculation...

Then people shouldn't post things until they are confirmed.

The OP did ask what people thought.

This is a discussion forum.

What part don't you get?

I wonder how the change in binding will effect scans.

AgeOfEgos wrote:I wonder how the change in binding will effect scans.

Compare PDFs of GW Codices versus those of FW Imperial Armour books. The paperback codices generally look much sharper.

...not that I'd know...

Cryonicleech wrote:I'm somewhat dismayed at the immediately negative reaction here.

I have a book on my shelf still with its "Under $25" Price Tag. The creep in price over the years just isn't worth it to me, even if it includes extra modeling stuff and the like. That may just be me, though, considering GW's current "Here's how to paint [x]" sections just haven't been up to par with old ones (IMO), and they could certainly stuff enough information in a handful of pages. Similarly, for fluff, I at once look forward to and dread GW fluff changes as at times they're interesting (Additions to 40K Ork Fluff, generally) and other times make me cringe (Farewell any plausibility of the Dark Elves starting off mislead, they were from Day 1 unrepentant power hungry demon summoning dicks now).

And invariably, if there is a price rise in the books we're either going to see the OnG book as a first (in which case every book thereafter can probably expect a similar or higher price), or it's going to lag behind a few books so that they can shift the prices all at once (or at least not have OnG the only one with a hiked price). The second possibility wouldn't surprise me either: Encourages people to buy the book now / soon, instead of waiting until later once they have the basics of the rules down to heart already, as by Summer / Next Spring they'll probably be notably more expensive.

Kid_Kyoto wrote:

JohnHwangDD wrote:
@KK: I don't want to carry around super-sized books like the Apoc books. A4, and no larger.

Second, for those really large books, does nobody own a high-resolution digital camera?

Yeah but it's such a hassle to photograph every page and make sure the shot is lined up right and the page is flat and the lighting is good, really you'd have to build a lightbox specific for it and then spend ages cleaning it up in photoshop.

Or uh, so I would assume. Not that I'd ever considered it

Or, one could get a regular photographic enlarger-type device...

I'll have the new orc and goblin book in my hands about Wed/Thursday. They are shipping in this weeks 'Black Box'.

My sales rep confirmed that it was a hardcover. I didn't ask the price though. I'll post when it gets here.

I seriously doubt the 50 dollar price, my guess is 30 or 35. We'll see.

mikhaila wrote:I'll have the new orc and goblin book in my hands about Wed/Thursday. They are shipping in this weeks 'Black Box'.

My sales rep confirmed that it was a hardcover. I didn't ask the price though. I'll post when it gets here.

I seriously doubt the 50 dollar price, my guess is 30 or 35. We'll see.

Thanks! I really, seriously hope I'm wrong and we all have a good laugh about this.

Guess we are all to blame moaning about the crap quality and books falling to pieces.
That would never happen with a GW hardback.

They wouldn't really make them 4'x4'?

They will be 2x2' a la the battleboard to encourage you to buy the whole collection of codices/army books.

Re rumours
there is a good way to stop rumours/
Just give out the info on the internet instead of playing "What's in the Box"

.... Are there no depths to which GW won't sink?

I know hardcover is more expensive to make, but I think even if they bring out HC Codices/army books, they should still have soft cover.

Chibi Bodge-Battle wrote:Jst give out the info on the internet instead of playing "What's in the Box"

Everything you have read is a lie!

Remember that one? Good times...

Great.

JohnHwangDD wrote:At $20, I bought a lot of Codices. Nearly all of them for 3E.

Then GW bumped the price to $25. For me, softcovers at $25 are a stretch. And I cut back to buying maybe half of them.

Right now, I might pay $5 extra for a hardcover, so my upper price point is $30. The content simply isn't there to justify paying more. And even then, I'd wait until I was really sure I wanted one.

At $50 for a hardcover, no thanks. I'll wait to buy used or on deep discount. If anything, I'll tighten down my Codex buying even further.

This.

At $15 and $20 in 3rd and 4th ed, I bought basically every codex.

Nowadays I slowly acquire them, and am not even trying to have a complete collection anymore. I lost my SM codex a couple of months ago and just couldn't justify buying another one; until I got a $25 gift certificate from a tournament this last weekend.

At $50 I'd only buy the codex I need for whatever army I'm playing currently.

I also think the other problem is that we know that eventually this expensive book will be out of date and useless in game.

they increase the prices further I will just pirate the codex and put it in a binder

Ahtman wrote:I also think the other problem is that we know that eventually this expensive book will be out of date and useless in game.

This has never stopped anyone who plays Dungeons and Dragons. (Though admittedly, the turnover of D&D books is a lot slower than GW.)

I still think this is a lot of fuss over nothing, but hay-ho, wouldn't be the internet if it wasn't.

Misguidance wrote:

Ahtman wrote:I also think the other problem is that we know that eventually this expensive book will be out of date and useless in game.

This has never stopped anyone who plays Dungeons and Dragons. (Though admittedly, the turnover of D&D books is a lot slower than GW.)

I still think this is a lot of fuss over nothing, but hay-ho, wouldn't be the internet if it wasn't.

The majority of my D&D books are on pdf

Maybe GW are wanting to move towards paper rulebooks as a premium product with PDF books for kindle/iPads as the standard product. Or maybe it's just business as usual at the GW price rise dept.

Well, just think of it this way: If they increase prices to such rediculous prices, I'll finally have enough reason to save up and invest in a printer.

George Spiggott wrote:Maybe GW are wanting to move towards paper rulebooks as a premium product with PDF books for kindle/iPads as the standard product. Or maybe it's just business as usual at the GW price rise dept.

This is what I hope for as well. I have every codex and rulebook scanned and on my ipad and although I still buy every codex (mainly because I want continue to own every 40K rulebook ever made) I think less and less people are. I know GW has been terribly afraid to embrace technology for their products but we have seen a few cracks in that dam recently...most notably Black Library's excursions into ebooks has possibly convinced GW that the model can work?

If they start creating full color hardback books for their armies and then also offering rules only PDFs for all armies, then the people who really want to collect the codexes/army books will pick them up for the fantastic production value (full color, etc) and everyone else can just grab the PDFs to peruse the rules.

I really think that would be the best of both worlds and I PRAY that this once GW is ready to try something interesting and new.


BTW, I can't help but mention that there *was* a time when all codexes were hardback...of course there were a lot less armies back then as well!

I look forward to hearing GW's official statement on this with great interest. Will this turn out to be a 'collectors edition' or the only one offered? And will this be a precursor to some sort of electronic version as well? Or will this just be a further move towards GW making their entire range a completely 'premium' purchase?

We should know soon enough!


Ultimately though, even if the books are $50, they're still only releasing 3 of them a year now...so I wouldn't bat an eye picking up every codex released even at $50 if the cost came with a really nice product.

CT GAMER wrote:

Cryonicleech wrote:I'm somewhat dismayed at the immediately negative reaction here. $50 buck is terrible, without a doubt, and I too would cease to buy any codex/army book if the company was to make a move that slowed, but isn't this just speculation/a rumor? I mean, it's not been confirmed as far as I'm aware...

All I'm saying is that GW should get the hate when it's confirmed, not when it's speculation...

Then people shouldn't post things until they are confirmed.

The OP did ask what people thought.

This is a discussion forum.

What part don't you get?

The part where people are grumbling about it as if it's actually already happened...

I'm not saying "don't say your opinion" I'm saying "Remember it's a rumor..."

I don't believe that I said no one would buy it becuase of that reason, just that it is a factor. You go in knowing it will be outdated, sure, but there is a difference between paying $20 dollars for a disposable book and $50 dollars for one.

Also just becuase we know people will shell out the cash for a given thing doesn't make it a good buy.

Fafnir wrote:

Remember, this is Games Workshop we're talking about. Pants on head slowed is their specialty.

Straight up sigged.

yakface wrote:

George Spiggott wrote:Maybe GW are wanting to move towards paper rulebooks as a premium product with PDF books for kindle/iPads as the standard product. Or maybe it's just business as usual at the GW price rise dept.

This is what I hope for as well.

BTW, I can't help but mention that there *was* a time when all codexes were hardback...of course there were a lot less armies back then as well!

Or, they could stay the course and sell the $20 to $25 softbacks that we are OK with...

When were all Codices hardbacks? 40k2 was all softbacks. Unless you're thinking of a time when Codex books weren't actually called "Codex" thus-and-such, but rather went by arcane names like "Realms of Chaos: Slaves to Darkness". But even then, a lot of the contemporary books were softbacks, like the Compendium and Vehicle Manual. Can you clarify?

People are grumbling because it may happen.
I distictly remember qualifying my grump with the caveat.

However, experience with GW provides reasonable grounds to expect them to pull this crazy stunt

Kid_Kyoto wrote:

mikhaila wrote:I'll have the new orc and goblin book in my hands about Wed/Thursday. They are shipping in this weeks 'Black Box'.

My sales rep confirmed that it was a hardcover. I didn't ask the price though. I'll post when it gets here.

I seriously doubt the 50 dollar price, my guess is 30 or 35. We'll see.

Thanks! I really, seriously hope I'm wrong and we all have a good laugh about this.

Or perhaps it will be GW who will have the last laugh "KID" Kyoto.

Ha! Ha!

Haaa!


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JohnHwangDD wrote:

yakface wrote:

George Spiggott wrote:Maybe GW are wanting to move towards paper rulebooks as a premium product with PDF books for kindle/iPads as the standard product. Or maybe it's just business as usual at the GW price rise dept.

This is what I hope for as well.

BTW, I can't help but mention that there *was* a time when all codexes were hardback...of course there were a lot less armies back then as well!

Or, they could stay the course and sell the $20 to $25 softbacks that we are OK with...

When were all Codices hardbacks? 40k2 was all softbacks. Unless you're thinking of a time when Codex books weren't actually called "Codex" thus-and-such, but rather went by arcane names like "Realms of Chaos: Slaves to Darkness". But even then, a lot of the contemporary books were softbacks, like the Compendium and Vehicle Manual. Can you clarify?

Mik's post mentions hardback, but not price. That one he's also still guessing at.

Not against PDF but not wanting to buy a kindle just to play Warhammer so I hope the hardcopy won't be premium.

Could someone at GW please look up the word accessible please?

yakface wrote:BTW, I can't help but mention that there *was* a time when all codexes were hardback...of course there were a lot less armies back then as well!

Really? My Rogue Trader and 2nd edition books were mostly softback.

I really wish I had your faith regarding future PDFs in the near future but It is worth noting that GW have already made steps in this area with the two Inquisition books, where those two codices that were unlikely to sell out their print run were published on their website.

The Warhammer 40K rulebook, $96
Apocalypse Expansion book, $95
Space Marine Codex, $50
Tau, Necron, Black Templars Codex, $33
All other Codexs, $48

If I was paying that much for a book that was going to be well read, I would want a copy that has a cover that can withstand some damage.

The cost of Warhammer in Australia is rediculous and I haven't even mentioned the cost fo the models

Chibi Bodge-Battle wrote:Not against PDF but not wanting to buy a kindle just to play Warhammer so I hope the hardcopy won't be premium.

Could someone at GW please look up the word accessible please?

Well y'know what you won't find there, games that require $300-$1000 of minis + 10s of hours of painting just to play a friendly game.

GW never said they were making mass market accessible games, they're not Magic the Gathering or Heroclix, they think of themselves as the Cadillac of games.

Kid_Kyoto wrote:

Chibi Bodge-Battle wrote:Not against PDF but not wanting to buy a kindle just to play Warhammer so I hope the hardcopy won't be premium.

Could someone at GW please look up the word accessible please?

Well y'know what you won't find there, games that require $300-$1000 of minis + 10s of hours of painting just to play a friendly game.

GW never said they were making mass market accessible games, they're not Magic the Gathering or Heroclix, they think of themselves as the Cadillac of games.

Next time I want a cadillac.

Sorry I didn't realise one had to be true blue blood aristocracy to play plastic soldier games.
*doffs cap, tugs forskin*

Kid_Kyoto wrote:

Chibi Bodge-Battle wrote:Not against PDF but not wanting to buy a kindle just to play Warhammer so I hope the hardcopy won't be premium.

Could someone at GW please look up the word accessible please?

Well y'know what you won't find there, games that require $300-$1000 of minis + 10s of hours of painting just to play a friendly game.

GW never said they were making mass market accessible games, they're not Magic the Gathering or Heroclix, they think of themselves as the Cadillac of games.

And my Grand Am can keep on thinking it's a Bugatti Veyron, but it's still a Grand Am.

Kid_Kyoto wrote:GW never said they were making mass market accessible games, they're not Magic the Gathering or Heroclix, they think of themselves as the Cadillac of games.

That may have been true 10-15 years ago, when Caddy was down in the dumps selling rebadged Chevies.

Caddy's come a long way, and is legitimately much better now.

GW, not so much, especially when you factor price.

JohnHwangDD wrote:
Or, they could stay the course and sell the $20 to $25 softbacks that we are OK with...

When were all Codices hardbacks? 40k2 was all softbacks. Unless you're thinking of a time when Codex books weren't actually called "Codex" thus-and-such, but rather went by arcane names like "Realms of Chaos: Slaves to Darkness". But even then, a lot of the contemporary books were softbacks, like the Compendium and Vehicle Manual. Can you clarify?

Yeah, I was talking about Rogue Trader, where the equivalent to what has become a codex was hardback. Of course they ever only got around to making the two Chaos books and the Ork books (never did make a Space Marine book...oh how times have changed!). The WD compilation books were indeed softcover but you have to imagine that if they had ever gotten to making a SM or Eldar book back then they would have done them in hard back because that was their deal way back when.

I would pay $50.00 for a hardback codex if the following highly unlikely things were to happen:

1/. Decent fluff in your codex that makes YOUR army look good, not the imperium (unless you are buying an Imperial codex..).

2/. Legally sufficient, waterproof rules that have been subjected to a room full of rabid raw-wranglers and came out unscathed and unwarped to impossible pretzels of 'logic'.

3/. AWESOME art, preferably not by Jon Blanche. If it Blanche art, at least let it be good art, not some funky Dali daydream with too many spiky crennelations.

4/. Balanced codex, of equivilent potency to all other $50.00 codecii that come out before or after it.

5/. If the codex contains any new units, they will have a model released at the same time as the codex.


I think that'd do me well enough to want to buy it.


*edited for dyslexia.*

Capt. Rex wrote:The Warhammer 40K rulebook, $96
Apocalypse Expansion book, $95
Space Marine Codex, $50
Tau, Necron, Black Templars Codex, $33
All other Codexs, $48

If I was paying that much for a book that was going to be well read, I would want a copy that has a cover that can withstand some damage.

The cost of Warhammer in Australia is rediculous and I haven't even mentioned the cost fo the models

I'm confused. What are you trying to say? Are those $ you list USD? Or Australian?

If USD, that's way off,

and if Australian, that's fething ridiculous, unless AD are about 40% USD.

Full colour hardcover books with alll new art and great design, along with a significant page count increase are worth paying $50 for - imo.

I did this with D&D supplements for years.

It seems they'd make so much more money by making all these books e-books. Hardback books....really????

GW is facing huge competition from other companies and this is what their marketing guys can come up with to try and earn more money??!?!?!?!? Who really thinks this is a good idea?

Yet another reason I can't be bothered with Fantasy.

Hans Chung-Otterson wrote:

Capt. Rex wrote:The Warhammer 40K rulebook, $96
Apocalypse Expansion book, $95
Space Marine Codex, $50
Tau, Necron, Black Templars Codex, $33
All other Codexs, $48

If I was paying that much for a book that was going to be well read, I would want a copy that has a cover that can withstand some damage.

The cost of Warhammer in Australia is rediculous and I haven't even mentioned the cost fo the models

I'm confused. What are you trying to say? Are those $ you list USD? Or Australian?

If USD, that's way off,

and if Australian, that's fething ridiculous, unless AD are about 40% USD.

They are all Australian prices. The cost of the models are even more ridiculous then the actual books need to play.

Sorry but full colour Army Books that change every 5 years would be too much unless there is also a cheaper softback option.

Especially when there are several armies to get books for.

Am seeing what is going on here you nefarious Nottingham swindlers!!.
GW start rumour: O&G army book $50
Release it at $37.50
Everyone says hmm not as bad as expected.
then buy said book.

Capt. Rex wrote:

Hans Chung-Otterson wrote:

Capt. Rex wrote:The Warhammer 40K rulebook, $96
Apocalypse Expansion book, $95
Space Marine Codex, $50
Tau, Necron, Black Templars Codex, $33
All other Codexs, $48

If I was paying that much for a book that was going to be well read, I would want a copy that has a cover that can withstand some damage.

The cost of Warhammer in Australia is rediculous and I haven't even mentioned the cost fo the models

I'm confused. What are you trying to say? Are those $ you list USD? Or Australian?

If USD, that's way off,

and if Australian, that's fething ridiculous, unless AD are about 40% USD.

They are all Australian prices. The cost of the models are even more ridiculous then the actual books need to play.

Sorry. When I see the dollar sign ($) I have a hard time reading it as anything but USD, and maybe Canadian dollars. Is that also the symbol for Australian dollars?

BTW, I looked up the conversion: it looks like the Aussie dollar is actually doing BETTER than the U.S. dollar, meaning that $98 rulebook is like $100 USD! I never would've touched 40k this last November if that'd been the price...Jay-sis.

NO
No
No no no

We already pay $50 here and I am not paying something like $75-95 AU for an army book/codex just cos its hard cover.
If they do that I'm just gonna have to find other, perfectly legal, ways of acquiring these without spending an unreasonable amount of money.

Man, with those prices, I don't even understand why you Aussie guys play 40k (unless the typical income is double what it is in the U.S.; for all I know, it might be). If I lived in Aussie & absolutely burned to play 40k I'd do up some paper mini conversions in Photoshop or something & print 'em out.

While I understand and share in the anger that news of an even more expensive army book or codex range elicits from Dakka users, please let me remind you that DakkaDakka is not the appropriate forum for discussing your plans to steal or otherwise abuse the IP of GW or of any other person or legal entity. Please leave that kind of talk for some other part of the internet. Failure to respect this simple request could result in suspension of your account.

yakface wrote:

JohnHwangDD wrote: When were all Codices hardbacks? 40k2 was all softbacks. Unless you're thinking of a time when Codex books weren't actually called "Codex" thus-and-such, but rather went by arcane names like "Realms of Chaos: Slaves to Darkness". But even then, a lot of the contemporary books were softbacks, like the Compendium and Vehicle Manual. Can you clarify?

Yeah, I was talking about Rogue Trader, where the equivalent to what has become a codex was hardback. Of course they ever only got around to making the two Chaos books and the Ork books (never did make a Space Marine book...oh how times have changed!). The WD compilation books were indeed softcover but you have to imagine that if they had ever gotten to making a SM or Eldar book back then they would have done them in hard back because that was their deal way back when.

Ahh... Thanks for clarifying.

Personally, I think Forgeworld already does an excellent job of covering that market of premium, large format, hardback Codices which aren't "Codex" books.

I wonder how much of a test bed those Heraldry books were?

I'm sorry if it has come up but are there any rumors as to having more colour throughout?

Manchu wrote:I'm sorry if it has come up but are there any rumors as to having more colour throughout?

*gasp*

That's racist!

I kid. Having more color photos and artwork would make me consider more of
these purchases. I have plenty of "ooh pretty" rulebooks for games that I have
never played.

When it comes to RPGs, I have plenty of ugly books that I have paid as much or more for than a Codex. I hope GW is stepping it up to Privateer Press's standards. Say what you will about their miniatures, they print a fine looking book.

Manchu wrote:I'm sorry if it has come up but are there any rumors as to having more colour throughout?

Yes, I think the *rumor* was that the O&G army book is full color.

That is a relief to hear. I only own a half dozen or so army books but I like the art as well as most of the 40k stuff and it's a bit of a drag to see all that fantastic stuff in b&w.

Manchu wrote:I hope GW is stepping it up to Privateer Press's standards. Say what you will about their miniatures, they print a fine looking book.

I say them miniatures is damn fine!

What koolaid?

I'm going to go ahead a delete this. ~Manchu

I really hope this rumour isn't true.

I don't want hardback codexes. Apart from the prohibitive expense, they are heavier to lug around.

malfred wrote:What koolaid?

Everybody's thirsty, people just like different flavors.

Kilkrazy wrote:I really hope this rumour isn't true.

I don't want hardback codexes. Apart from the prohibitive expense, they are heavier to lug around.

as a D&D nerd I have to throw out a hardback or two isnt hard to pack around(especially given current codex sizes), if you are carrying a poo load of codex's well I have to say you are probably doing it wrong

Old men, let us go back in time... Once upon a time ALL figs in the GW line were plastic... then they went to lead and the public grumbled... then they went to pewter because someone's kid grew a 3rd eye, Jervis went to dinner and spit him out and we grumbled. This book is no different, it is either a collector piece which I welcome or a change in format which has worked out fairly well so far. Sure the prices have gone up, but what hasn't. Do I hope ALL GW books are released in some e-format sure, will I be shocked when they move farther down the premium line... no. Either way I think people will do as they have done as America has stopped speaking with their wallet. Personally as my last position was as a production director for a major printer, I tip my cap to GW, the margin is nice on this move and people will buy it or do what they have done regardless. Maybe the books will stand up to the punishment and the fluff will be more uhhhh solid? A nice 20 page story about Orc's and Goblin's would be nice.

"People of Fantasy! I bring you 3..."



"...2 army books in the coming year!"

Uktabi wrote:Old men, let us go back in time... Once upon a time ALL figs in the GW line were plastic...

Nnno. Citadel began with lead miniatures, plastics came later.

Are there any possible other reasons for this change?

Could hard-cover books be cheaper for them to produce (for whatever reason)?

Quality is apparently an issue with the softcovers.

I am thinking that they can get more profit from hardback than softback, though I think long run softback would still be better due to how softbacks decay from use

H.B.M.C. wrote:Are there any possible other reasons for this change?

Could hard-cover books be cheaper for them to produce (for whatever reason)?

Profit margins are higher.

Assuming people will actually pay for them.

Well, this would be the final nail in the GW coffin for me. Unless it's a compilation codex, with all of the marine lists, or all the IoM non-marine lists in one book, there's no reason to push the price to $50. Full color really isn't that impressive in this day and age.

Guildsman wrote: Full color really isn't that impressive in this day and age.

And even if it were, that's not what I'm looking for in a codex. The pictures are the last thing I worry about when I buy a codex. If I want an artbook, I'll buy an artbook. If I want pictures of nicely painted models, I'll go to Coolminiornot or look at the Dakka Galleries.

Manchu wrote:While I understand and share in the anger that news of an even more expensive army book or codex range elicits from Dakka users, please let me remind you that DakkaDakka is not the appropriate forum for discussing your plans to steal or otherwise abuse the IP of GW or of any other person or legal entity. Please leave that kind of talk for some other part of the internet. Failure to respect this simple request could result in suspension of your account.

Hey man, can you clarify: Which post(s) are you referring to? I hope not mine, as I didn't at all recommend abusing the IP of GW! Just making your own paper minis to play with their rules...

Agree entirely Fafnir. At least there needs to be an option.
The colour pics in the current army books are adverts by any other name you care to choose.

Off to find out if there is any connection between the expressions, "being fleeced" and" having the the wool pulled over your eyes".

baaa humbug

For once, I have a reason to be happy I chose to play Beastmen! We lost a lot of rules, we lost a lot of units, got a ton of crappy figures, but at least it will probably be another decade before I have to buy a more expensive rulebook!

Hopefully this isn't true and GW stop and think before making such a move. However, given past actions and precedent, they probably won't...

filbert wrote:Hopefully this isn't true and GW stop and think before making such a move. However, given past actions and precedent, they probably won't...

If it is true, I hope to get a good Dark Eldar / Space Wolf decade of use out of each Codex before I have to buy a new one!

You can't please everyone.

What I would like is for GW to release two editions of each book.

One would be the Full Monty, with oodles of fluff, colour pics, hard cover and all that, priced at say £30 to £50 depending on thickness.

The second would be the stripped down version, no fluff, no colour, soft cover, A5 size. Priced at £10.

Basically to follow the example set by the AoBR rulebook and the BGB.

The way I see it, if they're going for a $50 price tag they're likely to do more than just make it a hardback book, they'll likely fill out the length a bit to further justify that price. GW should feel free to experiment. When its out, we have to judge it for everything it is and not just the fact it was one price and now its another.

malfred wrote:"People of Fantasy! I bring you 3..."



"...2 army books in the coming year!"

I have to confess I have been lazy to buy any dex or book from GW in a long time, I mean the fluff doesnt change much the artwork is from crappy to very good and I dont play much either... not much incentive... I was about to jump on the amazing new fantasy book then I just caved in and got some miniatures instead.

Kilkrazy wrote:You can't please everyone.

What I would like is for GW to release two editions of each book.

One would be the Full Monty, with oodles of fluff, colour pics, hard cover and all that, priced at say £30 to £50 depending on thickness.

The second would be the stripped down version, no fluff, no colour, soft cover, A5 size. Priced at £10.

Basically to follow the example set by the AoBR rulebook and the BGB.

And release them at the same time. Not 3-4 months apart.

Chibi Bodge-Battle wrote:Sorry I didn't realise one had to be true blue blood aristocracy to play plastic soldier games.
*doffs cap, tugs forskin*

Uhh.... please stop tugging on that.

Anyone recall the first of the third edition codexes? You know, those pamphlets that had 3 pages of fluff- and then the army lists and a bunch of pictures of the figs and maybe an ineffective 'how to' paint like the pros thing. they charge 15 or 20$ for those. And after having paid the same sort of prices for the hefty 2nd ed codexes it was a slap in the face. But people kept buying them.

A 50$ hard back with a bit more content is just the sort of thing GW would do- and then act as though they are doing us a great favor by granting us the priveledge of buying thier wondrous works of art.

Lets look at it another way. White Dwarf. It has doubled in price- almost tripled over the last 10 years- but yet the actual content has been reduced at an inversely proportional rate. The gamer community keeps showing GW that they will pay for medicore products- so GW feels entitled to keep doing so- and will continue to gouge those that buy thier products as long as they can.

So, just say 'Oh thank you mighty GW!' and keep buying their stuff. Or stop buying their attitude(as thats what youre paying for rather than the value of the content) and try out a game/company that actually LIKES their customers

I'd rather they scaled the rule books down to just the rules and stats and sold them for a much lower price.

Regards the issue of pdf's being standard and the HB's being the "premium" - I have a kindle, even had a few of the Apoc datasheets on it. Have to say that I would hate to have a rulebook on it as it would take forever to flick through the pages if you are hunting for something.

Also, I would not like to have to take my £100+ electronic book with £X of ebooks on it to a tournament, or even to my local GW/FLGS.

I also don't want to lug 80 tonnes of hard back books around with me either.

SilverMK2 wrote:I'd rather they scaled the rule books down to just the rules and stats and sold them for a much lower price.

Regards the issue of pdf's being standard and the HB's being the "premium" - I have a kindle, even had a few of the Apoc datasheets on it. Have to say that I would hate to have a rulebook on it as it would take forever to flick through the pages if you are hunting for something.

Also, I would not like to have to take my £100+ electronic book with £X of ebooks on it to a tournament, or even to my local GW/FLGS.

I also don't want to lug 80 tonnes of hard back books around with me either.

You don't use key-word search? Or just go to the ToC?

I buy a lot of RPG's etc, so hardbacks are nothing new for me, I just hope they aren't like the FFG dark heresy/rogue trader/death watch adventure books that look tiny in comparison to other hardbacks - inspiring a less than value for money effect.

Of course it does mean I'll probably buy less of them, unlike now, where I usually get everyone.

Given that an Army book is going to sit n my shelf for 5 years I think hardback would be a great way to go but only if it's full colour. I'm sick of black and white books especially when hardback graphic novels like the 2000AD and Marvel six issue collections aren't that expensive. I see no need to panic.

Personally I think the 'new style' will be just be 'full colour' however I'd love to see ebook versions.

if they are lookgn to cut costs why dont they make codices/army books a pay for download ro something?

Go to GW website, select your book, pay £5. Download and print.

i can't see them giving them out on free PDFs so this coudl work maybe.

Kilkrazy wrote:You can't please everyone.

What I would like is for GW to release two editions of each book.

One would be the Full Monty, with oodles of fluff, colour pics, hard cover and all that, priced at say £30 to £50 depending on thickness.

The second would be the stripped down version, no fluff, no colour, soft cover, A5 size. Priced at £10.

Basically to follow the example set by the AoBR rulebook and the BGB.

This is a sensible, and very likely extremely profitable plan that will make players happy. Therefore, GW will never do it.

I love my AoBR rulebook. Bbest thing i have bought so far i think.

i think if this comes to pass, GW will die out in about two to three years which will be awesome for some (ie me)

TyraelVladinhurst wrote:i think if this comes to pass, GW will die out in about two to three years

I predict that you are not very good at predicting things that will actually happen.

Scottywan82 wrote:You don't use key-word search? Or just go to the ToC?

I still find it easier to just open a book. And it is a lot faster and easier to use a book to flick around the rules/etc.

SilverMK2 wrote:

Scottywan82 wrote:You don't use key-word search? Or just go to the ToC?

I still find it easier to just open a book. And it is a lot faster and easier to use a book to flick around the rules/etc.

I use the iPad sometimes, and I always find things way faster than in the actual book. I'm not wild about the Kindle's small screen though. Maybe that makes the difference.

Bloodwin wrote:Given that an Army book is going to sit n my shelf for 5 years I think hardback would be a great way to go but only if it's full colour.

I'm inclined to think thats the sort of thing GW's likely to do with a $50 book.

Praxiss wrote:if they are lookgn to cut costs why dont they make codices/army books a pay for download ro something?

Go to GW website, select your book, pay £5. Download and print.

GW doesn't want to lose revenue, so from their point of view they'd want to at least break even. A scheme like this could easily go hand in hand with a larger fanicer version that justifies the price tag while compensating for the diminished revenue due to the sale of digital copies.

If GW went this route they'd likely follow FFG's example where the digital copy is 30% off... $5 is an undervaluing of their product. If every 40k player paid only $5 per codex and bought every codex GW wouldn't be able to afford to write the next codex.

I think you overestimate the amount of cash it takes to writea codex rather than print and distribute it.

I suppose. The price point itself weas just a example. if i coudl DL a codex at a discoutn and then print it out and get it spiral bound myself or something, i would rather do that than lug a £3 HC book around.

Also, if i paid that much for a book, i woudln't want to take to a tourney or even my FLGS for fear of it getting messed up.

I would actually be completely behind this move if GW made bare bones versions of the army book rules available as free .PDFs online. If they want to market these vanity books to people for their own armies, more power to them. But for tournament organizers and the like that need to build a library of rules resources, or people who are curious about an army but not sold enough on it to pony up big bucks, there needs to be an alternative.

Or GW can just alienate more of the customer base than they already have over the past five years. One or the other.

GW will most likely never offer the Codices as free PDF's, but I've been proven wrong before.

When I first read the rumor about this my initial thought wasn't about price, but rather the ability to include more in the book (and not have it fall apart). I would certainly buy $50.00 hard cover Codices if they were packed with fluff, art, images and all that good stuff.

SkaerKrow wrote:

Or GW can just alienate more of the customer base than they already have over the past five years. One or the other.

Or just make new ones.

I think the question will be whether or not their target audience will be just as willing
to buy-in should the price-tag for the army rules alone becomes 50 USD.

Kilkrazy wrote:I think you overestimate the amount of cash it takes to writea codex rather than print and distribute it.

I think you underestimate the amount of overhead GW's floating. They currently sell books at ~65% retail price to retailers. This year their operating cost was £83M and their cost of sales is £31M all to generate £15M profit. Thats not great, they don't have huge margin to cut into to bring us savings. To maintain that level of profitability they can only play with the price of an army book so much. GW charges ~$30 currently; in switching from paper to digital they cut out the cost of materials, printing and shipping... but that only accounts for about 1/2 of the 65% of retail, or about 1/3. Anything else eats into the money that otherwise covers overhead or profit. They could always play with the numbers a bit and bring that down marginally, but not to the degree they could afford to charge only $5 for a digital armybook. GW has to maintain their same physical distribution system whether books are sent through it or not. You could bring up warehousing costs, but GW has to maintain that space no matter what so that comes down to opportunity costs. Other markets that have shifted from one media to digital are often times companies with a single type of product.

This is why I was saying before where if GW does it as a parrallel effort to a nicer higher margin item, the margin of one can offset the other. Even still while GW could do it but not for as cheap as people seem to want it.

TBH if the next Chaos codex came out as a HC with loads of fluff and artwork i woudl most likely fork out the cash it is my main army and the reason i started the game. Any other codices i would either not bother or DL if it was an option.

Agreed, all the FFG RPG books have really made me appreciate hard back books.

I like the idea of hardback codex/army books.. but if they were to do that I'd want it to be a pretty big book, like twice the size of an average codex.. tons of great art, model photos, painting guides, stories more than 3 paragraphs, etc. Like more of a "sourcebook" with everything you need to know about the army.

And, I doubt this will ever happen, but a digital version for ipads and stuff too.

Have any of these rumours actually been confirmed or substantiated? Or is this just 5 pages of conjecture based on here-say?

I mean, I dislike GW's business practices as much as the next man (unless the next man is H.B.M.C. in which case I don't even come close) but surely even they would think hiking the prices of army books up effectively 100% is going to damage sales.

GW's perspective is they want $X more profit, but that has an escalating effect. If they make something hard covered and it costs them $5 per copy to do that... they have to raise the price by another $5 to make a justified profit and the retailer by another $10.

Given that the OP sites FFG and FW success being GW's motives, I tend to think GW will try and make these books similar to those. The slimest hardcover by FFG is 144 pages the same as the current larger than average Space Marines codex. So its $20+ more for getting a book similar to that, hardbound and likely with more color.

In all fairness GW's shown what a hardbound $50+ rulebook looks like... the core rulebook. So chances are they'll raise the production value and have less pages than that.

filbert wrote:surely even they would think hiking the prices of army books up effectively 100% is going to damage sales.

I think their long term goal is to sell less for more until there is just 1 really rich guy somewhere who is supporting their eitire company on his own.

this would really suck

This may seem crazy, but if they came out with a Hardcover Blood Angels (my primary army) army book with color pages, additional fluff content, etc. I can see myself getting it. I am enough of a fan of that army and that fluff to enjoy that as a purchase.

Now if they replace the softcovers with only hardcovers that provide no additional content to what they have no for that price points, well that is pants on head slowed, as has been stated.

But why would an army book need to be full colour?
It is great for the chaps that want the extras, but if the rumour is true, there needs to be an alternative publication and we will all be happy.

SilverMK2 wrote:

filbert wrote:surely even they would think hiking the prices of army books up effectively 100% is going to damage sales.

I think their long term goal is to sell less for more until there is just 1 really rich guy somewhere who is supporting their eitire company on his own.

I really do think they are getting closer to that situation than they realise. I have stopped buying GW product and without blowing my own trumpet, I have a decent job with plenty of disposable income. If I have cause to reassess my shopping habits then what of people with less free money to spend? Not only that, I have stopped buying product because I feel the cost outweighs the value - i.e.. my decision is not based on not having the money to spend; simply choosing to spend elsewhere. Again, if I have made that decision then what of others with less of a margin? What of newcomers to the hobby?

filbert wrote:Have any of these rumours actually been confirmed or substantiated? Or is this just 5 pages of conjecture based on here-say?

I mean, I dislike GW's business practices as much as the next man (unless the next man is H.B.M.C. in which case I don't even come close) but surely even they would think hiking the prices of army books up effectively 100% is going to damage sales.

Closest thing to confirmation is mikhaila's reply page or two or three back that the Orcs and Goblin
book is hardcover according to his distributor. Nothing confirmed about price.

mikhaila wrote:I'll have the new orc and goblin book in my hands about Wed/Thursday. They are shipping in this weeks 'Black Box'.

My sales rep confirmed that it was a hardcover. I didn't ask the price though. I'll post when it gets here.

I seriously doubt the 50 dollar price, my guess is 30 or 35. We'll see.

For those who can't be bothered to find it, here's the confirmation.

But it does seem...interesting, to say the least.

Who doesn't like hard back books that are well put together?

They are not really all that great for something you have to flip through 1000s of times over and over.

Codices should be easily portable and accessable to the general populace.

Raising the price point and making them more inconvienient to lug around are counter to both of those things.

blood angel wrote:Who doesn't like hard back books that are well put together? They are not really all that great for something you have to flip through 1000s of times over and over.
Codices should be easily portable and accessible (spelling corrected) to the general populace. Raising the price point and making them more inconvenient (spelling corrected) to lug around are counter to both of those things.

All good points. Then there's the issue that the book will be obsolete in a few years when it is revised. I like nice hardback books that last forever if they are useful forever, not when there is planned obsolescence involved. And as someone said earlier, this will kill purchases of these books that are "just for fun" by people who don't actively collect or play the associated armies due to the increased cost.

aka_mythos wrote:...

In all fairness GW's shown what a hardbound $50+ rulebook looks like... the core rulebook. So chances are they'll raise the production value and have less pages than that.

Yes.

What worries me is that I decided not to buy any more BGBs. They are too expensive and heavy for what I want from the game.

So I might be looking at £120+ for the books for my four armies, and having to update them every four years or so (perhaps one a year). That is without getting books for any enemy armies I might want to look at.

SilverMK2 wrote:I think their long term goal is to sell less for more until there is just 1 really rich guy somewhere who is supporting their eitire company on his own.

I think you mean 1 rich guy and the 1 guy he pays to play with him. With our luck they'll both only play marines.

aka_mythos wrote:

SilverMK2 wrote:I think their long term goal is to sell less for more until there is just 1 really rich guy somewhere who is supporting their eitire company on his own.

I think you mean 1 rich guy and the 1 guy he pays to play with him. With our luck they'll both only play marines.

Playboy billionaire paying someone to play Warmachine with me on a private train car or
submersible? That sounds like a dream.

malfred wrote:

aka_mythos wrote:

SilverMK2 wrote:I think their long term goal is to sell less for more until there is just 1 really rich guy somewhere who is supporting their eitire company on his own.

I think you mean 1 rich guy and the 1 guy he pays to play with him. With our luck they'll both only play marines.

Playboy billionaire paying someone to play Warmachine with me on a private train car or
submersible? That sounds like a dream.

Seriously. How can I become a paid lackey?

I wish that GW would do 3 models.

1) E-reader sans fluff 5-10 USD price Point.

2) Soft cover no color - added inside the battle force. Also make battle forces have only new models for that edition of the rules. Biuld a value around 75$ include a variety of stuff. For example. a troops box, a hq and something else(dread/tank/MC something cool)+ book. (HQ should also be some sort of unique metal model.)

3) Hardcover 35-50 Price point.

Also make battle forces have only new models for that edition of the rules.

Those were already tried, they were called Spearheads and they had no lasting sales value, they didn't even sell that well when it was tried before as a splash. Once the few vets who wanted to add all the newest models to their army bought one, the rest languished for months.

Battleforces are designed to help people build a new army quickly by providing the basic elements of an army. Since there are customers starting armies all the time, the sales potential of that is far greater than what you suggest and those sets have a built-in discount, the only one offered by GW these days. In other words, the suggestion that Battleforces should be turned into what used to be called Spearheads is a colossally bad idea for customers and GW.

Kanluwen wrote:Seriously. How can I become a paid lackey?

Are you sure? People that rich tend to want their "playmates" to really earn their money

SilverMK2 wrote:

Kanluwen wrote:Seriously. How can I become a paid lackey?

Are you sure? People that rich tend to want their "playmates" to really earn their money

Look, I'm fine with a sugar daddy so long as I'm living in the lap of luxury!

Plus: you're just jealous that I'm prettier than you and can get the job easier.

I wonder if the new version will also include their fancy "pages falling out by the 5th use" binding techniques.

SilverMK2 wrote:

Kanluwen wrote:Seriously. How can I become a paid lackey?

Are you sure? People that rich tend to want their "playmates" to really earn their money

Is this what they call an escort-mission? Talk about niche-prostitution.

TyraelVladinhurst wrote:i think if this comes to pass, GW will die out in about two to three years which will be awesome for some (ie me)

OK, why exactly will it be 'awesome'?

Kanluwen wrote:Look, I'm fine with a sugar daddy so long as I'm living in the lap of luxury!

Plus: you're just jealous that I'm prettier than you and can get the job easier.

nah, I'm just checking you knew what was involved so I can hire you straight away when I win the lottery

SilverMK2 wrote:

Kanluwen wrote:Look, I'm fine with a sugar daddy so long as I'm living in the lap of luxury!

Plus: you're just jealous that I'm prettier than you and can get the job easier.

nah, I'm just checking you knew what was involved so I can hire you straight away when I win the lottery

I don't think your wife would approve of spending lotto money on a drinking/gaming buddy.

But she doesn't yell at us when we game on Live, so who knows...

UltraPrime wrote:

TyraelVladinhurst wrote:i think if this comes to pass, GW will die out in about two to three years which will be awesome for some (ie me)

OK, why exactly will it be 'awesome'?

no more GW tyranny? other companies who have an idea that's SOMEWHAT like GW's idea won't be sued out of business? take your pick

Kanluwen wrote:I don't think your wife would approve of spending lotto money on a drinking/gaming buddy.

But she doesn't yell at us when we game on Live, so who knows...

She is trying to get a cat (or more precisely she is trying to adopt 2 cats) at the moment - very much against my wishes, so her shouting at husband privileges have been revoked

SilverMK2 wrote:

Kanluwen wrote:I don't think your wife would approve of spending lotto money on a drinking/gaming buddy.

But she doesn't yell at us when we game on Live, so who knows...

She is trying to get a cat (or more precisely she is trying to adopt 2 cats) at the moment - very much against my wishes, so her shouting at husband privileges have been revoked

Oh lord, cats are evil.

But uh, I think we're dragging this offtopic.

TyraelVladinhurst wrote:

UltraPrime wrote:

TyraelVladinhurst wrote:i think if this comes to pass, GW will die out in about two to three years which will be awesome for some (ie me)

OK, why exactly will it be 'awesome'?

no more GW tyranny? other companies who have an idea that's SOMEWHAT like GW's idea won't be sued out of business? take your pick

Edit - on second thought, no point.

UltraPrime wrote:

TyraelVladinhurst wrote:

UltraPrime wrote:

TyraelVladinhurst wrote:i think if this comes to pass, GW will die out in about two to three years which will be awesome for some (ie me)

OK, why exactly will it be 'awesome'?

no more GW tyranny? other companies who have an idea that's SOMEWHAT like GW's idea won't be sued out of business? take your pick

Edit - on second thought, no point.

no extreme point, i've been handed 3 C&D letters from GW because my game was set in 2530 and had stuff that (to them atleast) looked like their power armor, which is a total lie. +5 internets if anyone guesses where i got my name from (since this topic is slowly going off track anyways)

I can't be bothered to read the 6 pages of posts so far, but...

GW has just put out a second small hardcover book for WHFB- the uniforms, etc. of the Skaven, following on the earlier release of the uniforms, etc. of the Empire. These books are slim, but full-color. If what Kid K said about hardcover being only a dollar or so more expensive to produce than a softcover, I can totally see GW moving in this direction for their army books, especially if they price them around $30.

I used to buy every army book that came out- you pretty much had to, if you wanted to know what your opponent could have up his sleeve. I know that if the price had gone up to $30, I'd probably continue to buy. Gettting it in hardcover for $30, sure. Much above $30 would have seriously impacted my purchasing habits, though- sometimes a price hike is just too much. (I could never bring myself to pay their asking price for the lovely plastic Greatswords, for example.) I sure wouldn't be buying army books for $50, hardcover or not.

It's moot in my case anyway; I didn't buy the hardcover 8th edition rules at $80, and once I'd played a few games of 8th, I had no desire to buy the IoB small rules off of any of my friends who were anxious to sell it.

But yeah, I can see GW trying on $50 hardcover armybooks, and then wondering what happened to their sales.

TyraelVladinhurst wrote:
no more GW tyranny? other companies who have an idea that's SOMEWHAT like GW's idea won't be sued out of business? take your pick

...

I was actually going to make a topic against Tyrael...but he's not wrong, at least not completely.

What does GW really do for the industry, these days? Most indie gaming shops are kept afloat by other sources at this point (usually CCG and RPG sales), not their profit off of GW merchandise. Jes Goodwin is an amazing sculptor, but it's been a while since GW has been much of a clearinghouse for new talent in the miniatures design field. GW's recent miniatures releases have showcased some exceptional sculpts, but increasingly we're seeing other miniature companies that can keep up with, or exceed, the quality of their work (though GW is still the leader in plastic kit development by a wide margin). Really, perhaps the only unique contribution that GW is making right now to the field is in giving all of the other, smaller companies out there a big target to aim for. If GW went belly up it wouldn't benefit the industry, but it wouldn't kill it off either. Gamers will be gamers, regardless of whether or not GW is in business or Warhammer/40k is actively supported.

I like Hardcover books. I like Battlefront's big hardcover briefings. However, Battlefront includes $50 worth of content. I'm skeptical that GW would do the same.

A compilation of all Space Marine or all Xenos codices may do the trick.

SkaerKrow wrote:Gamers will be gamers, regardless of whether or not GW is in business or Warhammer/40k is actively supported.

So how is it that Rackham went down the tubes and Privateer Press have had to make an announcement about supply and demand and Wizards of the Coast have stopped making D&D minis? I'm not a GW apologist but I don't think they are at any risk at all. Perhaps when all their retail outlets are shut down I might worry but given the number of retail outlets they have in the UK it doesn't look like they are in any great danger of disappearing overnight.

I also realise that haters are gonna hate whatever GW do.

Going full color would also mean that likely they would have to have all new artwork and stop reusing art from previous editions. This could also prove to be expensive (and increasing the prices).

Or just print in color a lot of the artwork that was orginially in color but was greyed to print in black and white.

Kilkrazy wrote:

aka_mythos wrote:...

In all fairness GW's shown what a hardbound $50+ rulebook looks like... the core rulebook. So chances are they'll raise the production value and have less pages than that.

Yes.

What worries me is that I decided not to buy any more BGBs. They are too expensive and heavy for what I want from the game.

I'll pay $50 USD for a hardback rulebook, like the 40k rulebook and WFB7. No problem.

At $75 USD, I'm not buying the WFB 8E book. It's too heavy and bulky for easy carrying , along with being too expensive. But I sure don't want to lug the fluff and painting stuff around. If this were a 2-volume hardbound set in a slipcover, or included the mini-book, I'd consider it.

aka_mythos wrote:Or just print in color a lot of the artwork that was orginially in color but was greyed to print in black and white.

OR maybe Turnerize all the grey stuff.

JohnHwangDD wrote:I'll pay $50 USD for a hardback rulebook, like the 40k rulebook and WFB7. No problem.

At $75 USD, I'm not buying the WFB 8E book. It's too heavy and bulky for easy carrying , along with being too expensive. But I sure don't want to lug the fluff and painting stuff around. If this were a 2-volume hardbound set in a slipcover, or included the mini-book, I'd consider it.

yeesh, is that what the 8e WHFB big book retails at?? i know it was big and beautiful from a casual glance but there's only so much i'm willing to spend on a book with planned 5 year obsolescence. if the 6e 40k book is going that way, i'd bow out and just wait for the starter mini book to hit my local store (they split starters and sell them individually). the only reason i picked up the deathwatch book ($60 MSRP) is that i got a crazy deal on it from barnes and noble.

JohnHwangDD wrote:At $75 USD, I'm not buying the WFB 8E book. It's too heavy and bulky for easy carrying , along with being too expensive. But I sure don't want to lug the fluff and painting stuff around. If this were a 2-volume hardbound set in a slipcover, or included the mini-book, I'd consider it.

Thats actually a really good idea.

Its reading topics like this one that i wonder: how GW still survives in the modern market? As a starter im really thinking about stop my collection right now and going for other game line (warmachines and Kings of Wars seens nice). I just stick with GW because i like Sci-Fi and their 40k scenario is cool, and that is why i will never play WFB, at least with those ulgy GW oficial models...

Bloodwin wrote:

SkaerKrow wrote:Gamers will be gamers, regardless of whether or not GW is in business or Warhammer/40k is actively supported.

So how is it that Rackham went down the tubes and Privateer Press have had to make an announcement about supply and demand and Wizards of the Coast have stopped making D&D minis? I'm not a GW apologist but I don't think they are at any risk at all. Perhaps when all their retail outlets are shut down I might worry but given the number of retail outlets they have in the UK it doesn't look like they are in any great danger of disappearing overnight.

I also realise that haters are gonna hate whatever GW do.

Honestly?
Rackham had a catastrophic migration to a new edition of their flagship game. They also switched from baller pewter figs to (admittedly really nice) pre-paints that alienated the hobby crowd. Then they were bought/sold to a company that decided table top games aren't what they want to to do. Bye bye Rackham.

PP gambled their company on the MKII rule set and won. In a way it's the exact opposite of what went down with Confrontation. Old players came back, new players are joining up at a much higher than anticipated rate, and as a result PP merchandise (especially Hordes) is moving at a rate where no-one has time to sit on it, meaning that stores are having to go through 3 or more distributors just to not sell out. PP is so damn busy keeping the Warmahordes stuff flowing they've had to abandon/shelve other projects to cannibalize manpower.

WotC has some very strict metrics for their games. D&D minis, like Dreamblade, that boat card game, and a vast number of has been and neverwases they've done before, failed to meet those metrics. Combined with the fact that a solid chunk of their purchases were probably for people who wanted the minis for regular D&D (rather than the mini game) and it's pretty clear why that game got orphaned. They're still making the figs, they've just shifted their focus on to what was probably their core audience all along.

GW isn't exactly hurting, but they're not really thriving either. I think they're going to wind up closing a bunch of stores, not this year (where they're apparently planning on opening a grip), but next when they realize the additional overhead from those outlets is eating into their margins rather than contributing to them.

A big price hike to a needed rulebook, without a viable alternative like a cheaper crunch only version or a discounted ebook isn't going to do them any favors. In fact it's going to hurt the crap out of them if it fails as they're going to have to admit that they did something wrong, which isn't something they like to do.

They need to go digital. I would love to be able to carry multiple codex on my tablet/laptop ... legally.

The Dwarf Wolf wrote:Its reading topics like this one that i wonder: how GW still survives in the modern market?

By virtue of proportion of market, it has an effective monopoly on a niche market that has shown an inelastic demand for its products. Facing little competition, it can set its prices to the point where they'd see decline in sales revenue.

"Turnerize "

Ok now you are talking
I am sold on the idea

not sure it would sit well with the grimdark 40K crowd though!

Chibi Bodge-Battle wrote:"Turnerize "

Ok now you are talking
I am sold on the idea

not sure it would sit well with the grimdark 40K crowd though!

Surely you mean:

Bloodwin wrote:So how is it that Rackham went down the tubes and Privateer Press have had to make an announcement about supply and demand and Wizards of the Coast have stopped making D&D minis? I'm not a GW apologist but I don't think they are at any risk at all. Perhaps when all their retail outlets are shut down I might worry but given the number of retail outlets they have in the UK it doesn't look like they are in any great danger of disappearing overnight.

I also realise that haters are gonna hate whatever GW do.

Tell me, where in my post, that I said anything about thinking that GW was about to die.

All I said is that GW drying up wouldn't kill (or significantly hurt in the long run) the gaming industry, as GW is becoming increasingly a part of its own separate industry from everyone else.

No Silver
That is Turner Prize not "Turnerize"

I wouldn't mind a hardcover book, but $50.00 is a little much. Codex sized books in hard back from other gaming companies usually run $29.99. Just look at D&D 4E for example. A $50.00 colour rulebook from a game like Pathfinder runs over 500 pages.

Now all this is strange because typical codexes are already $30.00, paperback, and mostly in B&W.

Just another case of GW charging more than the other guy because they can.

Chibi Bodge-Battle wrote:No Silver
That is Turner Prize not "Turnerize"

Yeah, and the process of turning crap into apparently highly regarded and expensive crap is called Turnerization

IE: "I'm going to Turnerize this bed"

I have an interesting thought...

What if GW is trying to compete with (wait... LOL) Mantic and their free rules for Kings of War by offering free PDF's for the codices and army books that only contain rules, stats and points. Making the hard back a collectors item for included fluff and art.

Doubtful, but maybe... Just maybe.

Games Workshop does not even know what competition is, let alone how to do it competently.

So many knickers so tightly twisted over a so far unsubstantiated rumour.

It's like the Daily Mail.

The Dwarf Wolf wrote:As a starter im really thinking about stop my collection right now and going for other game line (warmachines and Kings of Wars seens nice).

You won't save a dime, my friend.

Well it is hardback Mr M but somehow doubt that the price will retain parity with the current edition. No mention of the price, but a taste of what is to come.
http://www.warseer.com/forums/showthread.php?s=533866ef67e3efde4b911a5b998a14e4&t=292189&page=10
We can live in hope.

Sorry if this has already appeared in the rumours thread.
I claim no authenticity for the statement so please no salt tossing.

Manchu wrote:

The Dwarf Wolf wrote:As a starter im really thinking about stop my collection right now and going for other game line (warmachines and Kings of Wars seens nice).

You won't save a dime, my friend.

Yeah, but after being continually taken advantage of by an old mistress, it's sometimes better to go find a new one where the novelty outweighs the abuse

Manchu wrote:

The Dwarf Wolf wrote:As a starter im really thinking about stop my collection right now and going for other game line (warmachines and Kings of Wars seens nice).

You won't save a dime, my friend.

Yes and no. While you can spend just as much on Warmahordes (and probably Kings of War once they get going) your money goes further. A standard sized Warmahordes army is going to run around two hundo ('merican!). From there... well you will just keep going but you still spent less to get started.

In the long run the games will still cost you boku dollars, but a thousand bucks of Warmahordes gives you "more" than a thousand of GW product.

While a thousand dollars of Mantic will give you everything they've made to date and probably a few shares of private stock.

Edit: Just saw this on Warseer:

Armybook: 29,50€. All current armybooks are 22,75€. That's a 30% increase in price to a 50% increase in volume, + hardcover + full color. Very fair to me.

Assuming they do a straight conversion it looks like it'll be about $40.

Gr3y wrote:

Armybook: 29,50€. All current armybooks are 22,75€. That's a 30% increase in price to a 50% increase in volume, + hardcover + full color. Very fair to me.

Assuming they do a straight conversion it looks like it'll be about $40.

So the price point seems to be $40, up from $30 for the current book.

The next question is whether or not this is a one-off or the new norm.

Anyone seen a price point or format info for the Grey Knights book?

Gr3y wrote:While a thousand dollars of Mantic will give you everything they've made to date and probably a few shares of private stock.

Lordy, $1000 of Mantic? That would be one towering stack of sprues...

Gr3y wrote:Edit: Just saw this on Warseer:

Armybook: 29,50€. All current armybooks are 22,75€. That's a 30% increase in price to a 50% increase in volume, + hardcover + full color. Very fair to me.

Assuming they do a straight conversion it looks like it'll be about $40.

Yikes... $40 for a book? For some perspective, that's more then the current generation of Dungeons and Dragons hardcovers, and those are some very meaty tomes.

I still do wonder if it will be a limited edition hardcover for nutters like me.

they should do two, one wonderful full of colour pictures, battlereports and campaigns to play, hardcover, the other thin and just barebones. As if people can't afford it they just will torrent it.

If it's anything like the quality of the big rulebook, it's not a bad price at all.

Much more interested in the contents though...

At $40-$50... I see it a big leap to expect GW to go from the 108pg format to anywhere near the 300+pg the core rulebook has. The smallest books FFG has in hardback are 144 pages, just like the marine codex and are $40 a piece. My guess is that will be the template for the size/cost/production value.

Personally, I don't think there will be just a Hardback.

I think IF there is a hardback, there will also be a normal Army Book available.

I have no evidence other than 'logic' to base this upon however, it's simply my speculation. However, I'm subscribing to this thread to see what really happens...

Current rumor says increased price + bells and whistles are for Army Books only... for now!

40K stays 'as is'...

Just Dave wrote:I think IF there is a hardback...

I think there is no 'IF' anymore, I'd say it's confirmed by multiple sources.

@Gr3y: Needless to say, I disagree. But we can save it for another thread.

Alpharius wrote:Current rumor says increased price + bells and whistles are for Army Books only... for now!

40K stays 'as is'...

Makes sense when you consider what people claim are the relative demographics.

UltraPrime wrote:

Just Dave wrote:I think IF there is a hardback...

I think there is no 'IF' anymore, I'd say it's confirmed by multiple sources.

To me, it's an IF 'til there's evidence. Or as is so commonly said on Dakka; "pics or it didn't happen."

SkaerKrow wrote:Tell me, where in my post, that I said anything about thinking that GW was about to die.

All I said is that GW drying up wouldn't kill (or significantly hurt in the long run) the gaming industry, as GW is becoming increasingly a part of its own separate industry from everyone else.

I didnt say you did. I was responding to your comments about how great a job other companies are doing compared to GW. I think GW has been it's own industry since White Dwarf stopped including other games systems.

For me hardback would be ok, as long as there put together properly.

I have some forgeworld Imperial Armour books and they are fantastic quality, unlike my latest codexes. The Space Marine one lasted all of one week, before the binding started to come apart.

But still I would have to cut down to carrying perhaps two codexs instead of the usual five to six I used to bring to a game.

Anyways it could be a trail to see how much we buy. GW has always looked on itself as apart from the rest of the gaming industry, hasn't it?

Some people are having bad luck with their codexes.

All my codexes are fine.

Kilkrazy wrote:Some people are having bad luck with their codexes. All my codexes are fine.

It depends when you purchased yours. GW changed binders when the current Dark Elf army book was released. Every book released between that one and Warriors of Chaos had the falling apart problem with a fair percentage of the books in those releases. After that, things seemed to improve greatly.

My Daemonhunters codex is falling apart. And it wasn't really used roughly either. Just poorly bound. My Ork, Eldar, and Blood Angels codeci are doing just fine though.

Alpharius wrote:Current rumor says increased price + bells and whistles are for Army Books only... for now!

40K stays 'as is'...

Thank goodness I only have 1 Fantasy Army. We'll see if I like it enough to spend $40+ on an Army Book.

All of my codexes are fine.. the only book I ever had fall apart was the old original Necromunda rulebook, cuz we played the poop outta that game.

I'm liking the hardback idea more and more. I think it'll make the books more collectable in a way, but I know i won't want to be carrying around all that extra weight just to play a game :( The size of the new WFB rulebook is really the only reason I got the Island of Blood, so I could have the minibook to carry around to games.

The only book I had fall apart was my Rogue Trader hardback. Was helt together with cellotape. But it did see alot of use.

I cannot but shake my head at this.
At the current exchange rate that is £25 for an army book.

GW could charge twenty bucks for a jar of pickled farts and people would nod and say that seems reasonable.

Oh but they are the Porsche of pickled farts.
good grief

JohnHwangDD wrote:Thank goodness I only have 1 Fantasy Army. We'll see if I like it enough to spend $40+ on an Army Book.

You'll never get to spend that $40+. Dogs of War aren't getting a new armybook.

If new army books start costing 40-50 dollars I won't think twice about [Mod Edit - Please think twice about advocating that here on Dakka Dakka - it is frowned upon. Severely. Thanks!] I've gotten around shelling out for the hardback book thanks to the last two editions having the small sized books inside the boxed sets.

I might not mind paying 40-50 dollars for an army book IF every unit were represented with a model kit at the time of release. That would be a nice compromise in my opinion.

JohnHwangDD wrote:

Alpharius wrote:Current rumor says increased price + bells and whistles are for Army Books only... for now!

40K stays 'as is'...

Thank goodness I only have 1 Fantasy Army. We'll see if I like it enough to spend $40+ on an Army Book.

Same here!

I've already sold off quite a bit, and I'm only sticking with Empire and Chaos (Warriors).

Though I imagine Chaos will be even more expensive this time around, as GW realizes the error of its ways and allows Warriors, Daemons and Beasts to intermingle again...

I wonder if this change'll be like when White Dwarf went from slimline to ultra-fat, back just before Issue 200. The price doubled, but so did the page count... but ever so slowly, over the course of about 30-35 issues, it returned to its original size, but the price stayed the same.

So will we see a return to soft-back in two or three years, but the price remains hard-cover?

I think that if it is 'successful' what we'll see is page counts about what we have now, with prices +25% to what we have now.

So, yes, that would not be considered a success for gamers, but for GW.

In a way, it reminds me of the current comic book market - trying to sell to a diminishing base of customers, so prices go up, etc.

In that case Alpha shouldn't the comic book business remind you of GW, given that GW have been doing pretty much just that for 10+ years now?

So nothing but a guess at the price I imagine?

Hardbacks are ok considering fantasy just got a new edition. However, given GW's track record of piss poor army books it's a bit of a stretch. Hell, I wouldn't be surprised if the FAQ for the soon to be release O&G is already done and ready to be posted online the day its launched!

I also highly doubt we'll see 40k hardbacks until well after the next edition as no one in their right mind would bother buying one when it would be outdated by the end of the year with a new rulebook.

GW simply has too short a recycle time to warrant these imo. It's not like other systems where you could go a decade without a core rules update.

Just Dave wrote:
To me, it's an IF 'til there's evidence. Or as is so commonly said on Dakka; "pics or it didn't happen."

This is the most absurd thing I've ever heard. I guess this is what happens when there are education budget cuts and people learn history from picture books and tv... nothing existed before 1839.

Chibi Bodge-Battle wrote:I cannot but shake my head at this.
At the current exchange rate that is £25 for an army book.

GW could charge twenty bucks for a jar of pickled farts and people would nod and say that seems reasonable.

The book hasn't even been previewed let alone released. Criticizing it by drawing parallels to flatulence seems soooooo much more reasonable.

90% of the post are "if they do something to improve the content, it could end up being worth the extra cost" that isn't just some autonomous nod and pay. Its people reserving judgment.

Alpharius wrote:I think that if it is 'successful' what we'll see is page counts about what we have now, with prices +25% to what we have now.

So, yes, that would not be considered a success for gamers, but for GW.

you just described the latest price raise on most codexes of about $5 with no further gain like increased page count or color page spreads to be had...

Yeah, I did, didn't I?

Yikes!

People still buy them ? About every player I see at my FLGS have ones scanned from the net I believe.

shinzuer wrote:People still buy them ? About every player I see at my FLGS have ones scanned from the net I believe.

If that store owner allows that in his/her store, they are killing their own sales. The material may not have been stolen off their shelves, but it effectively takes sales away from them by allowing people to use questionably copied material in their store.

shinzuer wrote:People still buy them ? About every player I see at my FLGS have ones scanned from the net I believe.

I pity your FLGS then.

Prices for the book and the other orc releases will be up on the web on Wednesday. Book will not be 50.00, according to my sales rep. Should have about 40 additional pages. I'll have my copy this week and will be able to confirm.

I hope that this is just some ones idea of a bad joke.

Honestly, before I start running around saying the sky is falling, I'd like the book in my hands before passing any serious real judgment. I know it's easy to want to bag on GW on stuff like this, but I'm not seeing the doom, yet.

mikhaila wrote:I'll have the new orc and goblin book in my hands about Wed/Thursday. They are shipping in this weeks 'Black Box'.

My sales rep confirmed that it was a hardcover. I didn't ask the price though. I'll post when it gets here.

I seriously doubt the 50 dollar price, my guess is 30 or 35. We'll see.

$50 is NEVER going to fly with the majority of folks. Not for an army book. PP's faction book hardcover is what, $42? And the hardcover for soething like Legends, while roughly the same as the O&G book, but there is a hell of alot more in it then a GW book.

$50 will kill any chance of cross buying army books. $35 is even too steep for a GW hardcover army book. Given how many I have from 5th, 6th....not 7th as it eased up, 25-30 is too much for the softcovers.

Aka
you are missing the point.
Even if there is improved content (and what exactly would that be) is a deluxe army book necessary?
Yet 90% of the people posting would still be prepared to buy into it?

Shelf life 4-5 years
Have two other WHFB armies
Still yet to get an 8th ed rulebook
£75 if the rumours of $40 are correct and subsequent books are similar
Looking like £16 for an IoB rule book off ebay.
plus what I have already paid for the current army books.
plus the books for 40k
baaaaa
When I got into WHFB no one was available to me at that time to tell me this would be the deal. If they had I would have said stuff that for a game of toy soldiers.

I thought most people would see the imagery as humorous and absurd. Sorry if it missed the mark.
I do realise criticising GW on dakka can be like farting in pig farm but it can't be helped.

better out than in.

BrassScorpion wrote:

shinzuer wrote:People still buy them ? About every player I see at my FLGS have ones scanned from the net I believe.

If that store owner allows that in his/her store, they are killing their own sales. The material may not have been stolen off their shelves, but it effectively takes sales away from them by allowing people to use questionably copied material in their store.

agreed. that owner would be an idiot if they allowed it openly instead of insisting on players having a phsyical copy and the players would be unabashedly rude to ask if they could do so without buying it first. i don't have a moral problem with downloading in general but if you *actually* play an army and want your game/store/company to stay in business, buy the book! i've never criticised someone for pirating it just to look it over but i'm firmly against not buying one when you actually have an army for it. i traded for a nid codex recently (thanks swap shop!) to use with my alien-nid army. i didn't really play them much but i felt like i couldn't use just the army builder roster sheet for them once i properly based them for 40k. i'm co-gming a deathwatch campaign and currently am trying to *not so subtely* influence the other GM to buy the core book instead of using the pirated version in store. if he's got the physical (especially if bought from the store we play at), i'd have no problem with him using the digital version instead on the tabletop.

Out of curiosity, mikhalia, if a customer bought a book from you, would you allow them to use a pirated copy on a digital device in store simply for convience as long as they had their physical copy handy?

That sounds like it would be trouble to track, warboss.

I would love a hardcover limited edition GK codex. However, I would never buy a HC codex for an army I was not playing.

As has been said, if they do start HCs, hopefully they offer a soft cover as well. This will give army players a little something extra special while allowing the casual reader/new player accessibility.

Misguidance wrote:

Ahtman wrote:I also think the other problem is that we know that eventually this expensive book will be out of date and useless in game.

This has never stopped anyone who plays Dungeons and Dragons. (Though admittedly, the turnover of D&D books is a lot slower than GW.)

I still think this is a lot of fuss over nothing, but hay-ho, wouldn't be the internet if it wasn't.

Actually it has. Most folks will buy at discounts only with the books. 20-25 even 30 dollars, depending on the book, will get bought more often. Whne the books are 35-45 it gets looked at hard. I almost never buy a $50 RPG book. Or at least one that hasnt been discounted back down to $40 with 20% off. There was only one book I have ever paid cover price for for RPG's and that was Ptolus at $119. But that book is worth now 200-300. But it was worth for more then its price tag.

warboss wrote:Out of curiosity, mikhalia, if a customer bought a book from you, would you allow them to use a pirated copy on a digital device in store simply for convience as long as they had their physical copy handy?

I judge those pretty much on a case by case basis. Somone looking up something on a small handheld device is pretty un-noticable. If they own the codex and it's in their case, then pretty harmless as far as I'm concerned. Then there's the guy that came in, and ran a 20 foot cord over to an outlet so he could have his laptop on the table to look at his PDF's.) Besides people tripping over the cord, he was a blatant advertisement for illegal downloads.

One person looking up something, np. One person blatantly showing a store full of teenagers how to download stuff and not pay for it, Big Problem.)

Mo

I pick up every codex and army book as they are released. Anything under $50 US isn't much of a big deal in my opinion, they already run $30 US so 10-20 more isn't a huge deal. Especially if they move closer to the quality of the Imperial Armor books. More Fluff, more color pictures, more rules in a hard back sounds great to me.

Do people really think that the last couple of FW books (Especially IA 8 and 9) are less quality per dollar than the last few army books? How many people are just waiting to preorder Warhammer Forge's first book? I could understand that the cost is prohibitive if we got more than a handful of books a year, but one book at most every other month isn't that bad.

I don't remember hearing anyone complain about the warmachine books being $45 US for a hardback, (35. for softback). Am I misremembering them, I just recall how awesome it was that they put out a book a month. Battlefront hardbacks are $50+ US.

I think a hardback gaming book at $50 sounds about right.


On the PDF front, I wish GW wasn't such a group of Luddites where the Internet is concerned, they have such a small internet pressence for a game company (Seriously, why no Forums?). I would love it they did something like Disney does with digital content. Disney Bluray DVD's also come with a normal DVD (For the kids room or the car) and digital copy on another disk. Tron Legacy 3d is even coming with a 3d DVD, a Bluray, a normal DVD and a digital DVD, every format in one case. A code in a codex or armybook to allow a digital pdf download would be excellent, but I don't think it'll ever happen, GW fears piracy too much and will have to be dragged kicking and screaming into the digital and E reader market.

It seems to be that half of the people in this forum are OK with getting more "stuff" - because that 13th picture of an 'eavy metal plain jane black ork regiment (with blue shirts this time!) and the 5th random history page consisting of two columns of some flavor of "1234 Imperial - Some waagh went and killed a city. City retaliated but they all died" is really awesome to them.

And half of the peole in this thread already thought the copy + paste art that consumed several pages, the fluff that is typically forgettable after the first read, and the stock box art shots of a painted unit were already not worth the price, and wanted less (for less $) to begin with.

I think it's fairly simple. With the advent of the internet, Army Builder and other various programs....there is no point in GW trying to actively sell rules. People that want rules, will only buy them if forced (The tournament they are attending demands original copies). Then there is those that will buy each codex just for the fluff/artwork regardless of the rules. So, why doesn't GW;

Offer a bare bones PDF that has NOTHING but rules. A summary sheet, a skill summary sheet (Instead of referring to page # in the codex, just refer to the skill) and a FOC with unit cost. Drives people to your site, make them sign up, etc.

Offer a full color, fluff crammed codex at a higher price.

Draw people in with free rules, if they fall in love with the army they'll buy the damn codex anyways just for the fluff. If they don't like it...they'll drop the army, download another codex rule set and start planning a new one...

oh man they will look cool but money, oh they want more????

BrassScorpion wrote:

Kilkrazy wrote:Some people are having bad luck with their codexes. All my codexes are fine.

It depends when you purchased yours. GW changed binders when the current Dark Elf army book was released. Every book released between that one and Warriors of Chaos had the falling apart problem with a fair percentage of the books in those releases. After that, things seemed to improve greatly.

I've purchased codexes between 2003 and last year -- the new Tyranids was my last. I've had ten codexes over that time and they were all fine.

I had maybe a half dozen returned to me with bad bindings out of the 1000 or so I sold in the last 5 years. I just handed people a new one off the shelf. Then GW sent me another copy two days later.

This is something to gripe about?

AgeOfEgos wrote:I think it's fairly simple. With the advent of the internet, Army Builder and other various programs....there is no point in GW trying to actively sell rules. People that want rules, will only buy them if forced (The tournament they are attending demands original copies). Then there is those that will buy each codex just for the fluff/artwork regardless of the rules. So, why doesn't GW;

Offer a bare bones PDF that has NOTHING but rules. A summary sheet, a skill summary sheet (Instead of referring to page # in the codex, just refer to the skill) and a FOC with unit cost. Drives people to your site, make them sign up, etc.

Offer a full color, fluff crammed codex at a higher price.

Draw people in with free rules, if they fall in love with the army they'll buy the damn codex anyways just for the fluff. If they don't like it...they'll drop the army, download another codex rule set and start planning a new one...

good point, but GW sees the internet as a passing fad that is best ignored and/or destroyed

aka_mythos wrote:

Just Dave wrote:
To me, it's an IF 'til there's evidence. Or as is so commonly said on Dakka; "pics or it didn't happen."

This is the most absurd thing I've ever heard. I guess this is what happens when there are education budget cuts and people learn history from picture books and tv... nothing existed before 1839

No, this is currently a rumours thread. There is so far, no solid evidence of Hardback being the case; just someone being told by someone else. I'm simply saying that I'm not latching onto this idea until I see some actual evidence for it.
This is the internet, lots of crap gets passed around on here and suggested; there was a whole freakin' thread made up of fake rumours before so I'm being sceptical.
It's not going to surprise me in the slightest if there is a hardcover book, I'm just not going to fully believe it until I see some actual evidence.
It seems that these apparent education cuts and learning solely from picture books and tv has left me with little but logic and scepticism...


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Personally, the biggest problem for me with having a hardcover would be increased price and impracticality. I don't particularly care for the additional content, as that's what I'll go to Black Library for and I can't imagine that GW would fill it with conversion ideas or methods on modelling your own terrain like they used to.
One of the advantages of the softcover is its size and practicality.

http://www.games-workshop.com/gws/catalog/productDetail.jsp?catId=cat440004a&prodId=prod1120031a

it is hardback.. @ $37.25, and full colour.

This, indeed ALL the WFB army books will be hardback from now on.

That's amusing, just this morning, I had a package in the post, with some hardcover "Forces of" Warmachine books. Hardcover, full color, with good paper. That's some beautiful books really, even prettier than the recent FoW stuff. I put them on my shelves next to my recent 5th ed codexes, and thought the GW stuff was really looking cheap these days.
A couple of hours later, I see the next WFB army book in preview, hardcover, full color.

Looks like GW is learning faster than people give them credit for if you ask me...

Quite possibly.. go figure.

With this now having shown to be not quite accurate,and with there being a new thread with the pre order stuff on it, I'm going to lock this now.