Who are some notable non white characters in Warhammer 40k?

Also, I'm just wondering, are black people still called Africans and Asian people still called Asians or is it something else?(or Has racism been abolished altogether?)

I am aware of the White scars, the black from dawn of war 1 and those catachans on the box art for the Catachan battleforce

I don't think that any old Earth continent names are remembered. Humans are just humans, of varying skin tone. Perhaps different planets have different skin tones for the most part, and as such people are referred to by planet.

There are a number of factors contributing to the lack of such.

Colonisation of other worlds. After a few generations, they tend to consider themselves to be 'of' that world, and not 'Mericans or whatever anymore ('Merica was apparently one of the former nation states on Earth, in 40k).

The unification wars, when the emperor united the warring tribes of men into one force. This tends to mean identification with certain national or racial groupings becomes meaningless.

You also have ethnic blending, where certain characteristics become dominant over others, and a certain look goes with it.

Yes, certain cultural groups did establish colonies, and their offspring did follow the same cultural patterns (or similar), but they were no longer [insert culture of earth] but [insert name of planet] citizens.

Whilst Tallarn inhabitants dress in ways not dissimilar to the desert peoples and tribes of Northern Africa/middle east, and even have names evocative of such, I doubt they have anything else in common with Berbers. Fact is, a certain type of dress is defined by the environment.

Otherwise, the game was written by pasty english middleclass private school white boys in the early 80s. I really don't think omission of specific racial/cultural/ethnic groups was a conscious decision.

As per Rogue Trader, all current races and ethnicities are mixed up by the time of 40k and don't mean anything by that time. New traits (or older resurfaced traits) would have popped up on different planet populaces during the Dark Ages which may or may not resemble people today, but will certainly not be directly the same bar coincidence in terms of traits.

Little known fact (also from RT): Gothic is a mixture of Chinese, English and the Pacific languages, along with 38,000 years of 'natural' changes languages go through. So those Roman numerals on the side of Space Marine shoulders? not Roman at all, but highly stylised Chinese characters that happen to look like that.

Many words like Munitorum, Adeptes, Ecclesiarchy, Servitor and Ordos, are clearly Japanese in origin.

Kilkrazy wrote:Many words like Munitorum, Adeptes, Ecclesiarchy, Servitor and Ordos, are clearly Japanese in origin.

Definitely, mixed with some Thai of course.

chromedog wrote:Whilst Tallarn inhabitants dress in ways not dissimilar to the desert peoples and tribes of Northern Africa/middle east, and even have names evocative of such, I doubt they have anything else in common with Berbers. Fact is, a certain type of dress is defined by the environment..

The one novel I have read dealing specifically with the Tallarn Regiments describeds somewhat varied ethnic (but predominately "Arabic" ) backgrounds but a shared culture which I guess from the text is heavily influenced by Berbers and similar peoples. Some of this comes across in the free extract on the link below

http://www.blacklibrary.com/all-products/Desert-Raiders.html

I enjoyed the book

Personally in 40K I think names may have little to do with the appearance of the person - so a Admiral with a "Japanese" name is equally likely to be "black" or "white" as "Asian"........

re the OP on racisim - Again personally I think the human race int he 40 Universe is more foccussed on the are you "baseline" True human or a disgusting mutant or a foul Xenos rather than on skin colour. Thats not to say that unusual colours may not be commentented on, found attractive and/or unattractive etc in the usual manner, its more that any actual hatred is more easily and naturally directed into other areas?

As per Chromedog's comment... however:

Primarchs tend to be of or ethnically derived from particular cultural backgrounds...

Jagatai Khan (sp) - Japanese/Nipponese and Mongol... also exhibits traits of Mongol horse raiders.

Leman Russ - Nordik (Norwegian, Swedish, Danish peoples... did I miss any?)

Magnus - Egyptian (some also argue Babylonian)

In the GG novels there was a black scout named Jajjo....thats all I can think of....

When you consider the fact that mutation is very common in the grim darkness of the far future, then skin tone doesn't exactly cut it as a reason for prejudice and segregation, imagine the scene:

Imperial citizen 1: 'Is it 'cos I is black?'
Imperial citizen 2: 'No, it's because you have an extra arm growing out the top of your head!'

Midas and Medea Bentacore are important members of Inquisitor Eisenhorns retinue

http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Midas_Betancore

PresidentOfAsia wrote:Also, I'm just wondering, are black people still called Africans and Asian people still called Asians or is it something else?(or Has racism been abolished altogether?)

Seeing as Africa and Asia haven't existed on Terra for millenia and only did exist on one world in the whole of the IoM, it would be ridiculous is anyone with dark skin was called african in 40k.

On a side note, i know a few black people that would be offended/bemused if you called them african.

OTOH there are plenty of white people who are delighted to be called African.

The world we live in is gradually becoming rainbow coloured.

Much of the IoM, being remote from any source of trouble from Xenos/Chaos and the like, is riddled with as much prejudice and "-sms" as the world today.

If they don't have different colour skin, they probably divide by hairstyles, or sports teams or something.

One correction to what I said before, it was the precursor to Gothic, the ancient tongue that is Latinised what's the one descended from a mix of English, European and Pacific languages.

The current, modern language used in the Imperium is a mix of that and oriental languages.

All on page 267 of Rogue Trader.

I thought you guys were joking. Isn't Gothic staight up pseudo-latin?

Latin is used to represent the 'old tongue' because it gives the same archaic feel as it would to people in M41. The reason it's used is stylistic to convey the 'feel' you get from the universe.

But the actual language itself did say it was descended from English, European and Pacific Languages, with more Oriental languages added in for the more recent tongue.

Daba wrote:Latin is used to represent the 'old tongue' because it gives the same archaic feel as it would to people in M41. The reason it's used is stylistic to convey the 'feel' you get from the universe.

But the actual language itself did say it was descended from English, European and Pacific Languages, with more Oriental languages added in for the more recent tongue.

Ah, so in real life its pseudo-latin but you're saying they (and by they I mean the writers) say its a mix of various languages. (even though it's totally Dog-Latin).

Basically, in-universe it's the weird mix of languages; we see Latin (or the writers use Latin for things) because it gives the same emotive response to us as it would to someone actually in M41.

So you're saying that just like how when we read a BL book and the characters are speaking English its actually being translated from gothic for us, the actual written gothic is still being translated into dog-latin for us? I don't know. I'm under the impression that Adeptus Astartes, Exterminatusetc. are the actual High Gothic terms.

I think you find more allusions to skin color and culture as the writing and universe "matures" and the gaps are filled in.

The descriptions of members of the Thousand Sons (Ahriman, for example) shows us that at least some humans are representative of cultures/races we might recognize on earth today. Ahriman is from the "Achaemenid Empire" on earth. Located pretty much where it was in our own ancient history.

Elsewhere, there are many mentions of dark skinned remembrancers during the heresy. You find these things here and there.

One important note, however, is that we must keep in mind that the Space Marines at least are genetically altered and bear the expression to varying degrees of their Primarch regardless to which race/culture they may have originally come from. That expression may be radically different than what the marine started with. It is often stated that certain individuals even begin to look like their primarch since that genetic expression is dominant.

Sometimes I have preconceived notions about a character in a book because the author doesn't give any more detail other than his name. I had this problem when I read "Starship Troopers". I never would have thought Juan Rico, the major protagonist, was a Filipino. You don't find that out until near the end. This kind of thing can completely change your notions about things.

It's nice to have your "bubble popped" once in a while. Some authors are good at this... others not.

Talarans anyone?

Thousand Sons - Egypt motif

Rainbow Warriors [expunged]

Lion'el Johnson the DARK Angel, anyone?

Come on...the whole history from the inception is rife with non-White characters and armies.

The only thing better about the grim darkness of the future is that humanity has finally moved past the concept of race. It's just not something people think about.
Mainly that's because we have better things to be prejudice about. Damn mutants/xenos/witches!

I think in one of the HH novels, the guy who actualy managed to stab Alpharius before being cleaved in half (I don't know his name as I don't have the books handy for reference right now, sorry!) was referred to as being black skinned, along with his elite band of soldiers

In the 30th-31st millennium- I'm not actually too sure which one Unification and the Great Crusade took place in- many regions on Earth still had distinct identities and recognizable namesnames: Merica, the Yndonesian Bloc, Hy Brasil (Meeya Meefla?); the Siege of Terra obliterated everything.

I think that skin color depends on the type of environment, the climate, and the relative isolation of the planet... just like it does on Earth; every skin color from Earth ought to be represented in 40k, and then some. Owing to the (typically) sparse descriptive detail in Black Library books, unless they are described otherwise I envision people as tending towards olive-skinned.

As far as intra-human racism, any group perceived as mutant is classified as non-human and oppressed; and some worlds human ethnic groups may be (are!) marginalized, but as far as justifying it in racist terms that has never come up. Internecine struggles seem to be characterized as a result of either the ambitions of the powerful or the misguided masses rising up against Thatcherism Imperial governance.

Warhammer 40,000 seems to follow the general rule that Terry Pratchett formulated for fantasy worlds:

"...speciesism was more interesting. Black and white lived in perfect harmony and ganged up on green."

VoidAngel wrote:Talarans anyone?

Thousand Sons - Egypt motif

Rainbow Warriors [expunged]

Lion'el Johnson the DARK Angel, anyone?

Come on...the whole history from the inception is rife with non-White characters and armies.

Actually Lion El'johnson is believed to be a reference to the poet Lionel Johnson who wrote a poem called Dark Angel (or my dark angel) which was about the conflict between his sexuality and his religion.

Yes, I know. Mentioned for the stereotypically black name, AND the gay reference. He's two, Two, TWO minorities in one!

VoidAngel wrote:Yes, I know. Mentioned for the stereotypically black name, AND the gay reference. He's two, Two, TWO minorities in one!

Lionel Johnson is a stereotypically black name? I may not live in the most ethnically diverse place but i have never heard about that stereotype...

If you asked ten Americans to guess the ethnicity of a person named "Lionel Johnson" - 11 would answer, "black?"

VoidAngel wrote:If you asked ten Americans to guess the ethnicity of a person named "Lionel Johnson" - 11 would answer, "black?"

Maybe it's a cultural thing then...
But, considering 40k was created by a bunch of nerdy British people i don't think they were going for that angle... especially since Lionel Johnson was English.

Given the time period, and the name of the chapter - it's entirely possible that even British nerds intended it that way. I'm sure it was intended respectfully.

VoidAngel wrote:Given the time period, and the name of the chapter - it's entirely possible that even British nerds intended it that way. I'm sure it was intended respectfully.

I seriously don't think they were trying to go for a diverse imperium... it's more likely they were making silly references like they did with so many other characters.
OT: There is ethnic diversity in the Imperium it's just it is so unthought off no one cares. As long as you're human loyal and have the right number of body parts you're on the Imperium's side otherwise you're very much in the firing line.

I think they were at least somewhat enamored of things American. The original Dark Angels were said to have descended from Native Americans - hence the feather motifs and other heraldry.

VoidAngel wrote:I think they were at least somewhat enamored of things American. The original Dark Angels were said to have descended from Native Americans - hence the feather motifs and other heraldry.

Fair enough but you can't say that they were non-white merely because of the name Dark Angels. They may have drawn inspiration from native american culture for the symbols and insignia but not much else.

I dunno...even the artwork at the time they looked a bit Navajo maybe. Heck, even the Space Hulk video game for the x486 had them with feathers in their hair and looking like Indians on steroids.

I think they were going for interesting, not some diversity crap like we have today, where what you were born into in somehow more important that what you can actually do.

The Dark Angels are British Knights. The kind that go on quests to slay dragons.
As for the Dark in Dark Angels having something to do with Lionel Johnson's supposed stereotypical name I'm pretty sure your reading into something that's not there.

VoidAngel wrote:I think they were at least somewhat enamored of things American. The original Dark Angels were said to have descended from Native Americans - hence the feather motifs and other heraldry.

This is no true, the original Dark Angels were from Terra or Caliban, the 'Native American' cultural influence came from a recruitement world used after the fall of Caliban that was later lost to genestealer infestation. This cultural influence is only really seen among members of the deathwing as it was a group of deathwing that found out about the infestation and destroyed it.

I'm sorry but as a member of the British population the name Lion'el Johnson does not at all evoke an image of an American black man, i think you are barking up the wrong tree with this one.

KamikazeCanuck wrote:The Dark Angels are British Knights. The kind that go on quests to slay dragons.
As for the Dark in Dark Angels having something to do with Lionel Johnson's supposed stereotypical name I'm pretty sure your reading into something that's not there.

The Dark Angels are a mix of the French and English knightly tradition, by the time Britain was formed knights were no longer really used in war or followed the 'Athurian' lifestyle and neither Scotland, Ireland or Wales to an extent had knightly traditions.

BluntmanDC wrote:

VoidAngel wrote:I think they were at least somewhat enamored of things American. The original Dark Angels were said to have descended from Native Americans - hence the feather motifs and other heraldry.

This is no true, the original Dark Angels were from Terra or Caliban, the 'Native American' cultural influence came from a recruitement world used after the fall of Caliban that was later lost to genestealer infestation. This cultural influence is only really seen among members of the deathwing as it was a group of deathwing that found out about the infestation and destroyed it.

I'm sorry but as a member of the British population the name Lion'el Johnson does not at all evoke an image of an American black man, i think you are barking up the wrong tree with this one.

KamikazeCanuck wrote:The Dark Angels are British Knights. The kind that go on quests to slay dragons.
As for the Dark in Dark Angels having something to do with Lionel Johnson's supposed stereotypical name I'm pretty sure your reading into something that's not there.

The Dark Angels are a mix of the French and English knightly tradition, by the time Britain was formed knights were no longer really used in war or followed the 'Athurian' lifestyle and neither Scotland, Ireland or Wales to an extent had knightly traditions.

I agree about both points.

I'm not barking up any tree, just pointing out a possibility. Nothing to say it's the correct interpretation.

I'd have to go dig it out, but I think the "Dark Angel" story from 20ish years ago even talked about their Native roots. Could be wrong, it's been a while since I read it (about 20 years, in fact ;-).

O look, it's THIS thread again

VoidAngel wrote:I'm not barking up any tree, just pointing out a possibility. Nothing to say it's the correct interpretation.

I'd have to go dig it out, but I think the "Dark Angel" story from 20ish years ago even talked about their Native roots. Could be wrong, it's been a while since I read it (about 20 years, in fact ;-).

That's about the native roots of those guys. The Dark Angels are actually the most multicultural chapter because they live on a giant flying rock and recruit from all over the galaxy. Most chapters just recruit from a handful or one planet.

Point.

Kilkrazy wrote:OTOH there are plenty of white people who are delighted to be called African.

The world we live in is gradually becoming rainbow coloured.

Much of the IoM, being remote from any source of trouble from Xenos/Chaos and the like, is riddled with as much prejudice and "-sms" as the world today.

If they don't have different colour skin, they probably divide by hairstyles, or sports teams or something.

Don't you mean '-isms'?

purplefood wrote:Actually Lion El'johnson is believed to be a reference to the poet Lionel Johnson who wrote a poem called Dark Angel (or my dark angel) which was about the conflict between his sexuality and his religion.

Guess what mum?!

I learned something on Dakka today!

AvatarForm wrote:

Kilkrazy wrote:OTOH there are plenty of white people who are delighted to be called African.

The world we live in is gradually becoming rainbow coloured.

Much of the IoM, being remote from any source of trouble from Xenos/Chaos and the like, is riddled with as much prejudice and "-sms" as the world today.

If they don't have different colour skin, they probably divide by hairstyles, or sports teams or something.

Don't you mean '-isms'?

purplefood wrote:Actually Lion El'johnson is believed to be a reference to the poet Lionel Johnson who wrote a poem called Dark Angel (or my dark angel) which was about the conflict between his sexuality and his religion.

Guess what mum?!

I learned something on Dakka today!

and thats why the DAs wear dresses.

Grey Templar wrote:

AvatarForm wrote:

Kilkrazy wrote:OTOH there are plenty of white people who are delighted to be called African.

The world we live in is gradually becoming rainbow coloured.

Much of the IoM, being remote from any source of trouble from Xenos/Chaos and the like, is riddled with as much prejudice and "-sms" as the world today.

If they don't have different colour skin, they probably divide by hairstyles, or sports teams or something.

Don't you mean '-isms'?

purplefood wrote:Actually Lion El'johnson is believed to be a reference to the poet Lionel Johnson who wrote a poem called Dark Angel (or my dark angel) which was about the conflict between his sexuality and his religion.

Guess what mum?!

I learned something on Dakka today!

and thats why the DAs wear dresses.

I dont get it...

AvatarForm wrote:

Grey Templar wrote:

AvatarForm wrote:

Kilkrazy wrote:OTOH there are plenty of white people who are delighted to be called African.

The world we live in is gradually becoming rainbow coloured.

Much of the IoM, being remote from any source of trouble from Xenos/Chaos and the like, is riddled with as much prejudice and "-sms" as the world today.

If they don't have different colour skin, they probably divide by hairstyles, or sports teams or something.

Don't you mean '-isms'?

purplefood wrote:Actually Lion El'johnson is believed to be a reference to the poet Lionel Johnson who wrote a poem called Dark Angel (or my dark angel) which was about the conflict between his sexuality and his religion.

Guess what mum?!

I learned something on Dakka today!

and thats why the DAs wear dresses.

I dont get it...

i'd explain, but i don't know how old you are.


and i won't take your word for it either.

They are a blended race i think, unification and colonisation would dilute racial characteristics i would have thought. There is of course nothing stopping you from having your guardsmen from the ancient colonies of Nippon or New liberia who have kept the racial and cultural heritage of their earth ancestors.

As for High and Low gothic they are not anything, the numerals on those shoulder pads are just translations for convenience as are Manufactorum et al. Roman or Romanesque suits the gothic style nicely.

AvatarForm wrote:As per Chromedog's comment... however:

Primarchs tend to be of or ethnically derived from particular cultural backgrounds...

Jagatai Khan (sp) - Japanese/Nipponese and Mongol... also exhibits traits of Mongol horse raiders.

Leman Russ - Nordik (Norwegian, Swedish, Danish peoples... did I miss any?)

Magnus - Egyptian (some also argue Babylonian)

Yeah, true but then again most of Magnus's Sons were as white as white can be (even the coppery tone is often not mentioned, some also had blonde hair (Haathor Maat) for example). In my opinion, since chapters recruit from whole planets, their recruits can have any skin color possible, hence why the 1k Sons also have different skin colors (e.g. Ahriman in comparison to Maat). Except for the ones who have special skin conditions such as Salamanders or Raven Guard or where it's illogical (on a world like Fenris you won't likely find dark-skinned people).

I guess the now known races are all happily mixed up in 40k and skin color is no more a factor in racism. They either hate whole planets/cultures (but disregarding their skin color) or have a common enemy, e.g. mutants. What I would however like would be ethnic marine heads - why are there no black or asian featured sculpts? Just 2,3 heads for added diversity!

I always imagine most marine chapters to be mostly white but with some ethnic guys mixed in. At least that's how I imagine my 1k Sons. They came from a whole planet and some even from terra, there had to be some diversity. I mean, there are even blonde people in 40k, the trait that is most likely to disappear, so why shouldn't there be black or asian guys whose ancestors engaged in less interracial relationships.

Not to mention that Lion El'Johnson is described as having long blond flowing hair...show me one black person with long blond flowing hair.

Mit Gas wrote:

I always imagine most marine chapters to be mostly white but with some ethnic guys mixed in. At least that's how I imagine my 1k Sons. They came from a whole planet and some even from terra, there had to be some diversity. I mean, there are even blonde people in 40k, the trait that is most likely to disappear, so why shouldn't there be black or asian guys whose ancestors engaged in less interracial relationships.

The problem with the thought that they're "mostly white with some ethnic guys mixed in" is the Melanochrome organ, which controls a Marine's melanin and pigmentation. In higher levels of sun, it darkens a Marine's skin. In older fluff, it bleached a Marine's natural color to be paler than human norm as their norm. Some chapter's organ doesn't work right, such as the Salamanders and their black skin pigmentation.

So, a Marine's skin color(with a properly functioning Melanochrome organ) is more determined by what level of light they're in than any pre-change genetics.

The Emperor was born in Anatolia, so is Asian.

Platuan4th wrote:

Mit Gas wrote:

I always imagine most marine chapters to be mostly white but with some ethnic guys mixed in. At least that's how I imagine my 1k Sons. They came from a whole planet and some even from terra, there had to be some diversity. I mean, there are even blonde people in 40k, the trait that is most likely to disappear, so why shouldn't there be black or asian guys whose ancestors engaged in less interracial relationships.

The problem with the thought that they're "mostly white with some ethnic guys mixed in" is the Melanochrome organ, which controls a Marine's melanin and pigmentation. In higher levels of sun, it darkens a Marine's skin. In older fluff, it bleached a Marine's natural color to be paler than human norm as their norm. Some chapter's organ doesn't work right, such as the Salamanders and their black skin pigmentation.

So, a Marine's skin color(with a properly functioning Melanochrome organ) is more determined by what level of light they're in than any pre-change genetics.

Yeah, I didn't really think of that. But if one had asian eyes or black features before the change, those wouldn't completely go away, even if his skin color changes. So I'd still like to see some ethnic marine heads. Especially White Scars players could use em..

Kroothawk wrote:The Emperor was born in Anatolia, so is Asian.

Technically, yes, but not what most people think of when they think "Asian". They would probably (ignorantly) refer to it as "Arabic", as they would for most people from southwest Asia or north Africa. Of course, it's really murky when trying to translate to modern conceptions, as this was supposed to have happened, when exactly? Eight thousand BC? I don't know enough anthropology to say exactly who would have been living there at that point, or where else they later wound up (my knowledge of anthropology pretty much ends after the tiers of food production as they relate to social structure...).

Kroothawk wrote:The Emperor was born in Anatolia, so is Asian.

lol wut

technically, because Asia encompasses Turkey.


it, however, is populated by a completely different people group at the time of the Emperor's birth(8000 BC)

at the time of the emperor's birth, Turkey was inhabited by Aryans. not the Turks it is now(who are an Asian people and displaced the original inhabitants)


the Emperor would have been part of the ancestors of modern day Europeans and the Aryan Indian people(the upper level caste)

You're confusing "Aryan" in the historical sense (the people that eventually settled Persia/Iran through northern India) and "Aryan" in the sense of the insane, pseudo-anthropological ravings of the Nazi leadership (I would assume they got it from one of the quack anthropologists running around at the end of the nineteenth century (in other words, every anthropologist running around at the end of the nineteenth century), but I wouldn't know who). As far as I recall, the Aryans had exactly nothing to do with Europe, aside from sitting next to it on the eastern edge of the Mediterranean. Then again, I can't recall where the tribes that eventually dispersed through Europe came from, only that they shared a common language with the people of southwest asia (or had shared a language, at some point previously), what is now referred to as Proto-Indo-European, from which is ultimately derived Sanskrit, Hindi, Urdu (which is essentially Hindi with a different name, as I recall), and every European language other than Basque and... something else, I forget which.

it is belived that the same people group settled both Europe and northern India. mostly due to the skin tones.

because it's known that the Aryans in India came from the northwest of india(according to ancient texts) and the fact that no other people groups in the greater Eurasian area have the lighter skin tones then it can be assumed that the Aryans and Europeans are of the same stock.

Europeans clearly aren't heavily related to the Inuit peoples(who have asian features and dark skin) nor would their ancestors have come accross the Medeterrainian.

the only other light skinned peoples were the Aryans.



the Aryans probably split due to invasions from deeper in asia by darker skinned peoples. part went into Europe(passing through Asia Minor on the way) and part went to India(where they established themselves as the dominant group, and convientiatly set up the caste system)

Grey Templar wrote:

Kroothawk wrote:The Emperor was born in Anatolia, so is Asian.

lol wut
technically, because Asia encompasses Turkey.
it, however, is populated by a completely different people group at the time of the Emperor's birth(8000 BC)
at the time of the emperor's birth, Turkey was inhabited by Aryans. not the Turks it is now(who are an Asian people and displaced the original inhabitants)
the Emperor would have been part of the ancestors of modern day Europeans and the Aryan Indian people(the upper level caste)

Grey Templar wrote:it is belived that the same people group settled both Europe and northern India. mostly due to the skin tones.
because it's known that the Aryans in India came from the northwest of india(according to ancient texts) and the fact that no other people groups in the greater Eurasian area have the lighter skin tones then it can be assumed that the Aryans and Europeans are of the same stock.
Europeans clearly aren't heavily related to the Inuit peoples(who have asian features and dark skin) nor would their ancestors have come accross the Medeterrainian.
the only other light skinned peoples were the Aryans.
the Aryans probably split due to invasions from deeper in asia by darker skinned peoples. part went into Europe(passing through Asia Minor on the way) and part went to India(where they established themselves as the dominant group, and convientiatly set up the caste system)

As I said: Asian

Asian?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_Anatolia

The earliest representations of culture in Anatolia can be found in several archaeological sites located in the central and eastern part of the region. Although the origins of some of the earliest peoples are shrouded in mystery, the remnants of Hattian, Akkadian, Assyrian, and Hittite culture provides us with many examples of the daily lives of its citizens and their trade. After the fall of the Hittites, the new states of Phrygia and Lydia stood strong on the western coast as Greek civilization began to flourish. Only the threat from a distant Persian kingdom prevented them from advancing past their peak of success.

Hittites is the conventional English-language term for an ancient people who spoke an Indo-European language and established a kingdom

Sorry, but its impossible to know about 8.000BC for sure when the first confirmed data is from 2.500 BC.

Rather questionable to claim the Emperor as part of a ethnic group.

Furthermore, before that period we have:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/%C3%87atalh%C3%B6y%C3%BCk

Çatalhöyük ([tʃaˈtaɫhøjyc]; also Çatal Höyük and Çatal Hüyük, or any of the three without diacritics; çatal is Turkish for "fork", höyük for "mound") was a very large Neolithic and Chalcolithic settlement in southern Anatolia, which existed from approximately 7500 BC to 5700 BC. It is the largest and best preserved Neolithic site found to date.

Çatalhöyük is located overlooking wheat fields in the Konya Plain, southeast of the present-day city of Konya (ancient Iconium) in Turkey, approximately 140 km (87 mi) from the twin-coned volcano of Mount Hasan. The eastern settlement forms a mound which would have risen about 20 m (66 ft) above the plain at the time of the latest Neolithic occupation. There is also a smaller settlement mound to the west and a Byzantine settlement a few hundred meters to the east. The prehistoric mound settlements were abandoned before the Bronze Age. A channel of the Çarşamba river once flowed between the two mounds, and the settlement was built on alluvial clay which may have been favourable for early agriculture.

Go find out who exactly lived there...

Grey Templar wrote:it is belived that the same people group settled both Europe and northern India. mostly due to the skin tones.

because it's known that the Aryans in India came from the northwest of india(according to ancient texts) and the fact that no other people groups in the greater Eurasian area have the lighter skin tones then it can be assumed that the Aryans and Europeans are of the same stock.

Europeans clearly aren't heavily related to the Inuit peoples(who have asian features and dark skin) nor would their ancestors have come accross the Medeterrainian.

the only other light skinned peoples were the Aryans.



the Aryans probably split due to invasions from deeper in asia by darker skinned peoples. part went into Europe(passing through Asia Minor on the way) and part went to India(where they established themselves as the dominant group, and convientiatly set up the caste system)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kurgan#Kurgan_hypothesis

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aryan_race#Indo-Aryan_migration

Perkustin wrote:They are a blended race i think, unification and colonisation would dilute racial characteristics i would have thought. There is of course nothing stopping you from having your guardsmen from the ancient colonies of Nippon or New liberia who have kept the racial and cultural heritage of their earth ancestors.

As for High and Low gothic they are not anything, the numerals on those shoulder pads are just translations for convenience as are Manufactorum et al. Roman or Romanesque suits the gothic style nicely.

The thing is though through the thousands of yers new races would have popped up some may mimic the ones we have now and others may be different and planet specific e.g. taller due to less gravity (i'm not sure how that works so i may be wrong)

Mogul Kamir and his roughriders are Mongolian-ish.

Well, the Kurgan was immortal... ;-)

I find it pretty funny how 40K's take on the usual sci-fi utopian 'in the future prejudice between humans won't exist ' idea comes with the - rather logical, it has to be said - caveat that we've only achieved it by moving on our hate to other things

count_duckula23 wrote:I find it pretty funny how 40K's take on the usual sci-fi utopian 'in the future prejudice between humans won't exist ' idea comes with the - rather logical, it has to be said - caveat that we've only achieved it by moving on our hate to other things

Better them than us...

1hadhq wrote:Asian?
Sorry, but its impossible to know about 8.000BC for sure when the first confirmed data is from 2.500 BC.
Rather questionable to claim the Emperor as part of a ethnic group.

He was born in Asia. Asia was Asia 8000 B.C.. So he is of Asian descent. No matter what the ethnic group is called or where it migrated afterwards. Simple as that. And nice as well that GW didn't go the easy route and make the God-Emperor British

Kroothawk wrote:

1hadhq wrote:Asian?
Sorry, but its impossible to know about 8.000BC for sure when the first confirmed data is from 2.500 BC.
Rather questionable to claim the Emperor as part of a ethnic group.

He was born in Asia. Asia was Asia 8000 B.C.. So he is of Asian descent. No matter what the ethnic group is called or where it migrated afterwards. Simple as that. And nice as well that GW didn't go the easy route and make the God-Emperor British

Prove it.

When was Asia named Asia?

What the place was called then is less important to the argument than WHO was THERE then.

Also, when your argumentative recourse is semantic - you've ceased to have a viable position.

If you look at the artwork - he looks just like Conan the Barbarian. So maybe he was Austrian?

The only 'origins of the Emperor' fluff I know of (from a game book) involve the Sensei. Obviously an 'Asian' term. Though, since the Sensei were many, they could have been from any number of human ethnicities. He may be a literal mixing of races and cultures. Seems like a good, basic qualification for someone who is to rule all of mankind.

Who was there then.... are the people who spoke a language where the name of the location is from in that time.
So knowing how some place was called allows to find out who was there.

General barbaric tribe style from a fantasy setting may lead us to Conan - emporer..... and why not?
The Emperor lived throughout History, and he's already part of a sci-fantasy setting

A heritage from multiple gene sources could provide the wide mix neccessary to blend in with any ethnicity he deems to join. Like your idea.

He wasn't from multiple genetic lines, his soul was an amalgamation of those of a large number of human psykers who had been reincarnating a la the Eldar pre-fall, who realized the warp was starting to get a bit more dangerous than they were comfortable with (since the Eldar were by then starting their descent) and so committed ritual mass suicide in such a way as to coalesce into one being, in a sort of microcosm of how Slaanesh was later formed from the Eldar.

If he came from " a large number of human psykers" (the Sensei) did those humans somehow not have genes?

His soul was an amalgamation of theirs, he wasn't descended from them.

Nobody said 'descended' from them. As I remember the story in Realms of Chaos (which I have sadly misplaced long ago and can't now refer to ) - the Sensei 'combined' to form Emperor-tron. Whether this was entirely metaphysical or not, one might presume that an amalgamated being would retain the diversity of his parts in some fashion.

His soul was the amalgamation. His body was just that of some tribal kid genetically.

Sir Pseudonymous wrote:His soul was the amalgamation. His body was just that of some tribal kid genetically.

I get that. Depending on your theology, the soul is the seat of identity. That being the case it is reasonable to think that he'd be representative of more than one race.

Clearer?

"Race" is an ill-defined genetic concept, not a metaphysical one. And this was all, specifically, in response to "A heritage from multiple gene sources could provide the wide mix neccessary to blend in with any ethnicity he deems to join." He was, genetically, a tribesman from a single group, regardless of his soul being comprised of those of diverse psykers.

Kilkrazy wrote:OTOH there are plenty of white people who are delighted to be called African.

Thank you for this comment!

I was born in South Africa, so I'm an African. So what if I'm white? "Race" is an archaic term people use to identify "the other". We're all human, FFS! That's our "Race!

On the topic of Space Marines:
How do you make a "black" Spacemarine? Is he big, bald with thick lips and cornrows, blasting rap music out of his Rhino? Is an "asian" marine short, with squinty eyes and good at math? Do "white" Spacemarines dance badly, eat too much mayonaise, sleep with their cousins and live in trailerparks?

If GW made "asian" or "black" heads for marines they'd be accused of racism for lumping people into stereotypes. There's no way around this problem, except to paint your little plastic soldiers the way YOU want them.

Kilkrazy wrote:Many words like Munitorum, Adeptes, Ecclesiarchy, Servitor and Ordos, are clearly Japanese in origin.

Why are they "clearly" of japanese origin?

1hadhq wrote:

Kroothawk wrote:

1hadhq wrote:Asian?
Sorry, but its impossible to know about 8.000BC for sure when the first confirmed data is from 2.500 BC.
Rather questionable to claim the Emperor as part of a ethnic group.

He was born in Asia. Asia was Asia 8000 B.C.. So he is of Asian descent. No matter what the ethnic group is called or where it migrated afterwards. Simple as that. And nice as well that GW didn't go the easy route and make the God-Emperor British

Prove it.
When was Asia named Asia?

Counterquestion: When did life start on earth? Only when the British agreed on the correct spelling of the word earth?
Guess, I missed that your posts weren't meant seriously. Otherwise they don't make sense.

I'm getting rather irritated by the influx of "why aren't there other ethnicities in 40k" threads on dakka.

As I said in another "where are the other racial groups in the IoM" thread:

Because 38,000 years from now, Terra, and the IoM, is one big civilization, you can't be African-American as the concepts of Africa and America no longer exist. Also, millennia of living on planets with different climates and suns will alter your pigmentation, to the point that on some planets, paler skin is more prevalent, while on others, it's darker skin that's more common.

As for Space Marines, they share the same genetic structure as their primarch, if their primarch was Caucasian, they likely are as well, despite their original skin tone, which is why Space Wolves are largely Caucasian with Viking-esque beards/hair and wolfish teeth, because of Leman Russ, or how Blood Angels are brought into the Chapter scarred by radiation and leave as blond caucasians with sharper canines....they now have the genes of Sanguinius.

Also, 1,000 marines of the Salamanders Chapter are of a darker skin tone, because their planet's cause them to evolve that way

Amen.

I guess HR dweebs have hobbies too. I wish those types to choke on their own gak.

There are many mentions of "Merica" and "Sud Merica", it's also suggested that the emperor himself emerged from the Caucasus region. I've also seen mentions of a place called "Franc" or something like it. Also many chapters and companies are described as being dark skinned. Then there's the Tallarn imperial guard army, who are clearly arabic inspired.

In any case, different chapters and companies are from different PLANETS, not continents, and have been for several millenniums making them even more diverse in appearance than just the few "races" we have on earth (terra).


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Oh, then there's that people usually paint their armies in the skin color they themselves have, if not for some specific themed armies. It's just natural, and most people don't even think about it. I guess whities are just more represented in the hobby than other "races".

SgtSixkilla wrote:

Kilkrazy wrote:Many words like Munitorum, Adeptes, Ecclesiarchy, Servitor and Ordos, are clearly Japanese in origin.

Why are they "clearly" of japanese origin?

I don't think this was ment seriously.

WHAT? Are you saying some people around here doesn't take this 100% seriously??

Seriously though, *hangs head in shame for not seeing that*.

Kroothawk wrote:

1hadhq wrote:

Kroothawk wrote:

1hadhq wrote:Asian?
Sorry, but its impossible to know about 8.000BC for sure when the first confirmed data is from 2.500 BC.
Rather questionable to claim the Emperor as part of a ethnic group.

He was born in Asia. Asia was Asia 8000 B.C.. So he is of Asian descent. No matter what the ethnic group is called or where it migrated afterwards. Simple as that. And nice as well that GW didn't go the easy route and make the God-Emperor British

Prove it.
When was Asia named Asia?

Counterquestion: When did life start on earth? Only when the British agreed on the correct spelling of the word earth?
Guess, I missed that your posts weren't meant seriously. Otherwise they don't make sense.

A tactical retreat of yours?
Fine.

Assumed its obvious that the title of the thread didn't say " which continent was the Emperor from". Did you expect a serious reply to your post that makes no sense?
Its not bad for GW to place the Emperor at least somewhere with a few archeological sites from around 7.000 BC.
But we're not safe yet. GW didn't publish the "sensei" story in the last editions, they could drop it and go for British....

VoidAngel wrote:

Sir Pseudonymous wrote:His soul was the amalgamation. His body was just that of some tribal kid genetically.

I get that. Depending on your theology, the soul is the seat of identity. That being the case it is reasonable to think that he'd be representative of more than one race.

Clearer?

Your 'soul' has no effect on your genetics

A human's genetics is made from the mixing of their parents genetics

Anyways, back on topic. It was pointed out to me here: http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/350570.page that the Vitrian Dragoons aren't black but Persian or possibly Space-Rajputs. The Salamaders are inspired on Big 'Ole John Henry and so are Space-African-Americans. Emphasis on American. 40K usually does a good job of having a little bit of everything in it but it seems the straight up African cultures aren't represented.

BluntmanDC wrote:

VoidAngel wrote:

Sir Pseudonymous wrote:His soul was the amalgamation. His body was just that of some tribal kid genetically.

I get that. Depending on your theology, the soul is the seat of identity. That being the case it is reasonable to think that he'd be representative of more than one race.

Clearer?

Your 'soul' has no effect on your genetics

A human's genetics is made from the mixing of their parents genetics

This forum needs a, 'you must have a reading level above this line in order to participate" sign.

Sir Pseudonymous wrote:You're confusing "Aryan" in the historical sense (the people that eventually settled Persia/Iran through northern India) and "Aryan" in the sense of the insane, pseudo-anthropological ravings of the Nazi leadership

Actually, that kinda makes sense that he was one of the 'crazy' Aryans in reference to the marines, didn't they used to be Space Nazi's?

As for the Dark Angels, while the poem they're based on certain does add a thought to the robes, the fluff is par on par for the German Reformation and I tend to think they're the equivalent of space monks. Consider the conflicts with Islam, the Ottoman Empire and the 'Great' Crusades in the region during the 1500's in which the [Teutonic] Knights of Caliban took part, during which [Martin] Luther split the (Catholic Church/Chapter). The parent chapter (Dark Angels/Catholic Church) launched a full war with the renegade chapter (Fallen/Protestants). The Fallen/Protestants are declared heretics and excommunicated and a series of wars is the result of the Dark Angels/Catholic Church hunting them. The Space Monk theme is further reinforced with the naming conventions of the chapter pulling primarily from Judeo-Christian supernatural beings names.

Ezekial: Archangel of Transformation. Possibly a hint at mankind evolving into a psychic race?
Azrael: Archangel of Death.
Uziel: Cherubim whose name means "Strength of God"
... etc


It doesn't get a lot more copy and paste than that... If anything the name and relation to the poem may or may not be shots at the Catholic Church both as the in the numerous jokes about Catholic Priests and the amount of violence the Catholic world often endured, hence the Dark Angel. The Dark Angel isn't a reference to a dark skinned figure, its a reference to the personification of Death or the Grim Reaper, the angel whose job is the darkest in the removing of souls from the dead body.

Where is the feathers taken as a sign of Native Americans? The feather could also be in reference to angel wings. Also, the sword is the antithesis of a native american based chapter as native americans did not forge swords.

The Plains World incident is a Native American incident yes, however Plains World was a recruiting world of the Dark Angels and is not the basis for the chapter's backround or general theme. The genetic start of the recruits is irrelevant as they tend to take on the characteristics of their primarch. As stated the Lion had long blonde hair, which was rare at best in the New World.

VoidAngel wrote:

BluntmanDC wrote:

VoidAngel wrote:

Sir Pseudonymous wrote:His soul was the amalgamation. His body was just that of some tribal kid genetically.

I get that. Depending on your theology, the soul is the seat of identity. That being the case it is reasonable to think that he'd be representative of more than one race.

Clearer?

Your 'soul' has no effect on your genetics

A human's genetics is made from the mixing of their parents genetics

This forum needs a, 'you must have a reading level above this line in order to participate" sign.

Reading level is the level of a person's ability to read words clearly in the given language, I believe ''you must have an understanding level above this line in order to participate" is what you were trying to describe in your insult.

So either you ment your comment as a joke, or you ment that a white person's soul is different from a black person's soul or an asian person's soul which i think is wrong.

@KamikazeCanuck: i always thought that the salamanders had a feel of European classical gods, specifically the forge/craftmen gods, in how they are presented as being involved in human lives

Generally, they are thought to be tribute to John Henry: superhuman everyman. That's right, Salamanders are Americans!

Isn't it possible that throughout the Dark Ages, with the isolation of the planets new "races" are formed? I'm not sure if that was stated already

Also is it not possible that with this isolation, and the technological recession of many of the worlds, that these people adopt old cultures that have disappeared through the ages. They would then create their own culture by mixing all those old cultures that they heard about?

Is it also possible that humanity has a version of genetic memory (similar to the orks, though not as complex), so that they would fall back to cultures or styles from before?

Again, as it was said before, are you really african or american, or asian, if they no longer exist? That's a tricky one.

No, those concepts don't exist but almost everything in 40K is inspired or a tribute to some real life culture. That's what we're talking about.

The people of Glavia, such as the aforementioned Betancourt family from the Eisenhorne and Ravenor series, are black, an considered the best pilots the Imperium can offer.

There's obviously a bit of Star Wars Correllian (Han Solo) thrown in there, though through the use of their cybernetic implants rather than some genetic trait making them excellent pilots, but, there you have it. An ethnic "minority" (except on Glavia) that are instrumental in the success of the servants of the Emperor.

The White Scars SM chapter, and their descendants, are obviously based on the Mongol hordes, and a number of side-characters in many BL novels are mentioned to be of various non-white ethnic backgrounds.

If you're looking for racial bias in 40K, I don't think you're going to find it, at least not as easily or overt as one might hope to find such a thing.

Most citizens of the Empire are probably "white"; then again, living under a steel sky in the gloomy shadows of a hive-spire while interbreeding with "white" humans through ten-plus millennia of history will cause other racial traits to recede, excepting planets where such ethnic groups are the majority population (like Glavia), in which case it only reinforces those very same traits.

The Imperium seems to have moved beyond the petty racism that plagues modern-day Earth. No one cares what color your skin is when there are those pointy-eared *freaks* lurking just past the moon.

Aye, be glad that, in the 41st millenium, Mankind has moved past killing and fighting over the petty differences of skin color and moved on to more worthwhile things like killing traitor, heritic, mutant, and Xeno scum.

What I'm more interested in than skin color is hair color...Who cares about olive, black, white or red skin....what really is significant is who is doing better...blondes, brunettes or redheads!

Thank god 38000 years has finally cut out the most incredibly stupid and ignorant way of classifying people...if only we could speed up the process here. It's almost summer time...damn! I'm going to get a tan, and change classifications until winter! >(