What in the whole heck is this?!



In what way is this a 40k unit? How does this fit into the 40k Universe? This is something that would have looked good in Mech Warrior. Here it looks rediculous! Why is there a Grey Knight Terminator in a mech? And this isn't even the most rediculous part...

"As a 4-Wound Monstrous Creature with the same save as a Terminator armour, the Nemesis Dreadknight's adamantium-alloy skeleton also lends it incredible durability."

WHAT?!

"Terminator Squads are Troops choices in the army"
WHAAAT!?!

Please tell me I am not the only one who sees in this? I don't care about what the cost of these units will be in the end, this is not 40k, that Dreadknight-thingy isn't 40k! Am I the only one who feels deeply disturbed by the above image? Is this what they are doing now, first the fugly Stormraven which is a Landraider with wings, and now this monstrosity!

I ask once more, because it kind of eases my worries: Is there anyone else who sees the problem here?

Have you...heard about Draigo?

All I see when I look at the Dreadknight is:

WTF are you guys talking about? I think it looks awesome. The OTT GW hate is coming soon... I can smell it.

I dont like how they carried out the design in terms of the exposed marine (I DO however like the over all sleekness of the design.) I also dont see a huge problem with it, since mechs of this size ("knight titans") are known to exist for the Mechanicum - it would make sense that the GK would have access to the best toys even the Mechancum has to offer.

Hammer needs to be nastier, bigger, and broader.

That said, I don't like it either. The exposed marine is just ridiculous.

I like how despite all the rumours and the pictures there are still people who didn't see this coming.

purplefood wrote:I like how despite all the rumours and the pictures there are still people who didn't see this coming.

We are a blind lot.

Micromegas wrote:

purplefood wrote:I like how despite all the rumours and the pictures there are still people who didn't see this coming.

We are a blind lot.

This is 1 model and only a few rules...
Wait 'till you see the codex.

You need the one special HQ to make paladins troops, termies as troops is how the ORIGINAL codex was.

Also:



Spend 30 min max converting it, looks great.

Looks like the Power Loader from Aliens.

It certainly doesn't look like a Imperium walker. The hands in particular seem out of place.

I like you, and your wit

I don't quite see how something can have 4 wounds, and an exposed face above most standard bits of covers. Its like holding up a telephone pole in the middle of a thunderstorm.

I don't see the problem, but then I must be crazy because I like the stormraven too. I do think that the hammer is a bit small but that is easy to fix. Also, why not post a better looking picture?



Also, how could they ever think terminators as troops was fair? *cough, Belial, cough*

I mean, it is hardly as if the grey knights are supposed to be an elite army with high tech equipment is it?

Cheese is a STUPID term. Why would you call anything cheesy? I know its not perfectly balanced. Especially with out of date codexs/units. But do you think Deathwing is cheesy? You Know you can have 26 SS in a 1500 point Deathwing army.There is no such thing as Cheese. There are good and bad lists, and good and bad players.

Onto Grey Knight issues. The Dreadnight looks alright. A bit strange, but essentially still ok. It won't be OP Although its point cost in the leaked dex i heard was quite low. (Never saw it myself). Terminators as troops will be fun, but i don't know if they can really be all that good. Especially since a lot of their stuff seems killing daemon orientated, which has to be reflected in the point cost slightly. Lets see what the real codex has to say when it comes out.

Vargtass wrote:What in the whole heck is this?!

It's an APU from the Matrix with some leg armor and a grey knight in it:


I mean uh, very original!
(If Grey Knights have these why do they have dreadnoughts? Just sayn)

depending on the GK codex i fully plan on running my DW as grey knights, it will be a very small model count, but i dont care, i can finally run an all termie army with plenty of options

oh and this dreadknight looks naff, the rest of the stuff looks really good though

I still love it.
Why?
Because I love those kinds of things. Like the walkers from Avatar.

Well i guess Im crazy too! The stormraven is sweet as hell and this is even better. I don't see this not being 40k. Gk are the most elite warriors in the galaxy and this is gonna be an ELITE army. Gk are suposed to have the best equipment available.Your not gonna have 100 models on the table. Also dreadnoughts have badly damaged marines inside of them, this marine is fine, he just pilots a gigantic robot that is AMAZING!!!! STOP THE HATE!!!! GREY KNIGHTS FTW!!!!

Augustus wrote:

Vargtass wrote:What in the whole heck is this?!

It's an APU from the Matrix with some leg armor and a grey knight in it:

I mean uh, very original!
(If Grey Knights have these why do they have dreadnoughts? Just sayn)

And the matrix apus were copied from other works, that copied them from other works. What was original again?

Azure wrote:Have you...heard about Draigo?

This is actually an excellent point - How can someone have "risen rapidly through the ranks" and become the Grand Master of the Grey Knights if HE'S BEEN TRAPPED IN THE WARP HIS ENTIRE LIFE SINCE DEFEATING A DAEMON PRINCE AS A MERE BATTLE-BROTHER! JESUS ****ING CHRIST!!

It's things like these that make me glad I'm starting up CWC.

I honestly hadn't even considered that fact amongst his other feats of incredible wonder. And now...I question him further in terms of legitimacy

metallifan wrote:

Azure wrote:Have you...heard about Draigo?

This is actually an excellent point - How can someone have "risen rapidly through the ranks" and become the Grand Master of the Grey Knights if HE'S BEEN TRAPPED IN THE WARP HIS ENTIRE LIFE SINCE DEFEATING A DAEMON PRINCE AS A MERE BATTLE-BROTHER! JESUS ****ING CHRIST!!

It's things like these that make me glad I'm starting up CWC.

Um, Draigo defeated the daemon, rose through the ranks to grand master, defeated the daemon again when it returned and was then cast into the warp. Did you even read what you are talking about?

I don't like it either. For some reason, I'm not a fan of who ever is the head sculpter at GW. Everything looks boxy nowadays. The new models take away that grimdark feeling, and gives me that "soon to be a Saturday morning cartoon" feel.

Come on GW.

Maybe Forge World will give us a better looking Grey Knight Mech Warrior.

Not to mention he apparently died on Armaggeddon, killed Angron, and carved his name into Mortarion's heart. Guess they completely 'Squatted' all that OTT history for something more humble and reali-ohrite. He's still ridiculous.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Trickstick wrote:

metallifan wrote:

Azure wrote:Have you...heard about Draigo?

This is actually an excellent point - How can someone have "risen rapidly through the ranks" and become the Grand Master of the Grey Knights if HE'S BEEN TRAPPED IN THE WARP HIS ENTIRE LIFE SINCE DEFEATING A DAEMON PRINCE AS A MERE BATTLE-BROTHER! JESUS ****ING CHRIST!!

It's things like these that make me glad I'm starting up CWC.

Um, Draigo defeated the daemon, rose through the ranks to grand master, defeated the daemon again when it returned and was then cast into the warp. Did you even read what you are talking about?

Games Workshop wrote:Kaldor Draigo is the Supreme Grand Master of the Grey Knights and a warrior beyond reckoning. As a lowly Battle-Brother he banished the Daemon Prince M'kar the Reborn and he has risen steadily through the ranks to become the Grand Master of the most secretive Chapter of Space Marines. Yet ever since his battle with M'kar, Draigo has been cursed to a life within the Warp, doomed to walk within the Realm of Chaos. To remain pure when constantly assailed by Chaos shows such fortitude and personal strength that it is beyond measure. But while Draigo lives, he will prevail and one day, he will return.

Copypasta, straight off the site.

He's also burned down the Garden of Nurgle, destroyed a Tzeentchian city, collapsing it around a Lord of Change, and killed a Bloodthirster to purify its axe for a new weapon... Are they trying to make an internet meme out of this guy? Draigo=Chuck Norris type of deal?

Well that is some bad paraphrasing by the person who wrote that, ah well. He actually fought M'Kar twice.

Or they could be changing the fluff so he only fought him once, and then became the Grand Master from inside the warp. He's more epic that way

Well he IS the Supreme grand master of the GKs, badassery is kind of a job requirement.

I wonder what mobile phone reception is like in the warp, if he is going to be grand master he needs to stay in touch.

Even if its fits in the Warhammer 40k universe or not, I see conversion bits. Also, they are plastic.

The Dreadknight does look like a shelled out dreadnaught without a head carrying a terminator in a baby chest-carriage. Throw in the ugly wrist mounted storm bolters of the PAGK and I'm giving this army a wide berth. Too bad, because I LOVE the assassin models! Maybe I could field an inquisition army with it and go assassin happy. Bad models ruin a codex. And if anyone says I'm spewing "GW hate" or that I'm a hater, I happen to LOVE the new Orcs and Goblin models and most things that GW makes. I just think the GK release is a failure.

I don't feel betrayed, but I do feel a little let down. Some unchanged grey knights in plastic and an ugly new model is what you get after how many years without an update? It's all a bit underwelming that's all.

timetowaste85 wrote:The Dreadknight does look like a shelled out dreadnaught without a head carrying a terminator in a baby chest-carriage. Throw in the ugly wrist mounted storm bolters of the PAGK and I'm giving this army a wide berth. Too bad, because I LOVE the assassin models! Maybe I could field an inquisition army with it and go assassin happy. Bad models ruin a codex. And if anyone says I'm spewing "GW hate" or that I'm a hater, I happen to LOVE the new Orcs and Goblin models and most things that GW makes. I just think the GK release is a failure.

Hey, everyone is entitled to their own opinion. I just sometimes get the feeling that sometimes their is a "hate bandwagon", where people form their opinion based on other people's opinions. I also think people are too quick to polarise into love/hate. The world is not binary, it is possible to like some parts and dislike others.

looking closer at the model it really does look like a baby chest-carraige. I mean its got the harness thing down pat... after somebody pointed it out, and I looked at the picture again I just couldn't stop laughing.

That said, aside when I look at it and ignore the whole baby carriage thing, it looks more like a bulky wraithlord, except covered in Imperial Stickers and with more hydrolics than a dread...

I think this was their inspiration

Also, this would look great as a Deff Dread. Right next to my looted Trygon Deff Dread.

edit: As an aside, the Exo Squad toys were sick. Loved 'em. Then Ninja Turtles copied the idea and it was just weird.

I just don't for the life of me understand why this is a MC instead of a vehicle. Or psychic vehicles. That is a can of worms that should never have been opened. Or why they had to shoehorn in any of the Inquisitor stuff when it would have fit soooooo much better with the IG.

juraigamer wrote:Y

Exactly. The amount of whining i hear over this one is saddening.

Augustus wrote:

Haha! Best picture ever. Great point. Otherwise, I think this new Dreadknight model's alright, mainly because I just think it looks cool despite the lack of logic, lol. I guess one upside is that terminator armor is already so hard to penetrate. Anyway, I'm hoping this unit won't have the same drawbacks as the Penitent Engine from my favorite army....

juraigamer wrote:You need the one special HQ to make paladins troops, termies as troops is how the ORIGINAL codex was.

Also:



Spend 30 min max converting it, looks great.

hahaha thats funny

Personally I liked how the TAGKs and PAGKs turned out. They mix in well with the old metal models, who were pretty awesome to begin with. There was not much need to update them. Plastification was good enough, just that they didnt lower the cost by that much (15 canadian for the TAGKs, 10 canadian for the PAGKs). The cost of the PAGKs is really what breaks me on it, as someone mentioned before SWs get twice the sprues for only a meager few more dollars.

For someone who hasn't seen the stats or special rules for Kaldor Draigo, can someone give me a quick rundown, please.

yearzero wrote:For someone who hasn't seen the stats or special rules for Kaldor Draigo, can someone give me a quick rundown, please.

He doesn't have a stat table. Just a special rule that makes all his stats twice as high as whichever unit he's attacking. Even if it's 10's across.

metallifan wrote:

yearzero wrote:For someone who hasn't seen the stats or special rules for Kaldor Draigo, can someone give me a quick rundown, please.

He doesn't have a stat table. Just a special rule that makes all his stats twice as high as whichever unit he's attacking. Even if it's 10's across.

I hope you're trolling....though I wouldn't put it past GW.

Honest to God I cannot tell, knowing the fluff on that character...

Doesn't lookTHAT ridiculous....


Frankly the regular dread looks more ridiculous than this dreadknight FWIW.

I like how an exposed 1 wound model now magically has 4 wounds like a flesh and bone creature. And, it has more survivability than a marine ENCASED in dreadnought armor.

Seriously?

It looks don't use this word in this way on Dakka please and it's rules are stupid.

But hey, I guess when you slap a marine on a wolf, it magically becomes one creature that is harder to kill than if he was riding an armored motorcycle.

I am SOOOOO glad Dark Eldar was done right. I really am... I feel sorry for all you marine players. This is the 40k fluff of your generation. This is your Star Wars Prequels. Enjoy.

To me, the model itself looks pretty decent especially with the armored marine in there. The only problem to my eye is the harness which, as was pointe dout,looks like a baby carrier. A quick conversion to cover the Marine's lower legs with armor, and the Dreadknight would look awesome.

BuFFo wrote:This is the 40k fluff of your generation. This is your Star Wars Prequels. Enjoy.

inb4 the ability to field Pre-Heresy Primarchs...

The Grey Knight armour has always been smoother looking, more ornate and different shaped than regular Astartes armour, so it fits ok for me.

Also I'm old enough to remember other strapped in walkers (old Eldar war-walker, or Penitent Engine, for example)..

They are both older than dirt, and they 'fit into the 40k universe' fine. The new walkers with a cockpit took a lot of flak when they came out for being 'Eldar Sentinels'...

Also I'm old enough to remember when it was Canon that Grey Knights were ALWAYS Terminators, as the whole chapter was issued with Terminator suits and Force Weapons (real ones, not just called that) with the bolter mounted just behind the blade rather than on the opposite wrist...

Now i feel old.

Canon changes, kiddies.

*edited for spelling*

Even though the terminator is exposed he could take a fair amount of punishment before he was unable to function. Whereas a normal terminator would be out of the fight with a hole in his side, there is a fair chance that this guy could still continue to fight, as there is little need for physical exertion in that thing. A shot through the leg or arm would make a normal terminator less effective, yet a dreadknight would not have its combat potential greatly diminished.

His vital organs also have an extra layer of armour from the harness. I admit that the bare head is silly, but that is the same as every bare headed space marine ever made. There is always the option for the helmet.

GW seems to be bringing back older stuff. Started with the Skaven Doomwheel if I remember. I for one welcome the pseudo-retro themes. I still like to think of the Dreadknight as the "new" version of a paladin, makes it slightly easier to swallow. However the execution of the pilot is really, really poor.

juraigamer wrote:You need the one special HQ to make paladins troops, termies as troops is how the ORIGINAL codex was.

Also:



Spend 30 min max converting it, looks great.

Awesome image!

And point of information, the original GK army list from RT days had them as pretty normal marines, and no termis at all since terminators weren't invented until a few months later

Trickstick wrote: as there is little need for physical exertion in that thing.

You assume he has power steering

yearzero wrote:

Trickstick wrote: as there is little need for physical exertion in that thing.

You assume he has power steering

I think that they have sat nav as standard but the power steering is an optional extra. However, the standard voice for the sat nav is Kharn the Betrayer.

"In one point five miles, BLOOD FOR THE BLOOD GOD!"

Trickstick wrote:I don't see the problem, but then I must be crazy because I like the stormraven too. I do think that the hammer is a bit small but that is easy to fix. Also, why not post a better looking picture?



Also, how could they ever think terminators as troops was fair? *cough, Belial, cough*

I mean, it is hardly as if the grey knights are supposed to be an elite army with high tech equipment is it?

Yes. YES YES YES YES YES.

It's not like Grey Knights are cheap in points.. they'll always be outnumbered.

Then again, they'll still kill anything in their path. That's fine with me.

Anyways, I'm undoubtedly one of the gamers who belongs in an asylum as well, since I think the Dreadknight and Stormraven look awesome...

Trickstick wrote:

yearzero wrote:

Trickstick wrote: as there is little need for physical exertion in that thing.

You assume he has power steering

I think that they have sat nav as standard but the power steering is an optional extra. However, the standard voice for the sat nav is Kharn the Betrayer.

"In one point five miles, BLOOD FOR THE BLOOD GOD!"

I LOL'd so hard. I might sig. that

maybe is has some sort of force field that adds to the toughness/wounds lol

1. Let's be honest with ourselves: how original does 40k look?

Space Marines = star wars storm troopers (the skull shaped helmet, ya know)
dark eldar raiders = jabba the hut skimmers (from the 1st act of return of the jedi, they fly around that pit that eats people, remember?)
IG sentinals = ATST / "chicken walkers" that the ewoks fight
IG tanks = tanks
tyranids = have you seen star ship troopers?
dark eldar hellions = green goblin
tau suits = gundam
eldar jetbikes = yep, star wars return of jedi, forest jet bikes
i'm sure i missed some...

Yes clearly GW has betrayed us all and ruined 40k forever, even those of us who don't play GK. It will never be able to recover, everyone is going to stop playing it immediately GW will wither and die, and we will all take to the streets and burn Jerivs Johnson and Matt Ward in effigy first, then is person.

Honestly, its a damn model, and one that doesn't look half bad. Chill out. I certainly don't see any utter betrayals.

Well... I dont really HATE it, but I am going to gear my IG army up to kill the store example army, just because I can.

What I truly don't understand it the fluff behind the Dreadknight. Single GK have gone toe-to-toe with GT and the like and come out on top, 100 Grey Knights banished an effing Primarch and his Bloodthirster bodyguard.

I'm discounting the obvious strategy by GW of "Hey, here's an awesome kit (that costs a lot totally by coincidence), some random fluff and go!"

Well all that stuff was probably based on something else anyway, it is not like star wars was the most original thing ever. Plus, don't tyranids predate starship troopers (the film) and the tau are much more generic much suit than a gundam rip off.

Why does it have additional hydraulic lifts?

Why are its feet the same as a Crisis suit's?

Why is it so tall?

Why does it have a tiny shield on its shoulder?

Why does it need hands?

Why does it have hands?

Why is the pilot exposed?

Why does it have the same power-plant and torso as a Dreadnought?

Why isn't it just a Dreadnought?

EmilCrane wrote:Honestly, its a damn model, and one that doesn't look half bad. Chill out. I certainly don't see any utter betrayals.

Looks nice? yes.

Is the concept good? Hells no. Why is the terminator even holding little steering joysticks? really? Why isn't the piloting mechanisms just built into the terminator armor in a HUD? Why not just give him a steering wheel?

Penitent Engines worked because they were literal suicide machines. They were fitted to people who were going to die, hence the strapped in appearance.

The Dreadknight is a giant pile.

I guess if I glue a Meganob onto the front of a Deff Dread, he'll magically get 6 wounds?

The dreadknight sort of looks like a penitent engine but bigger.

The only thing i'm worried about is the talk of a lot of two wound models in termie armor that count as troops...and can take a sanguinary priest for FNP.

I'd better outnumber this army by at least 3 to 1, probably more like 4 if they have crap like that.

ian1920 wrote:1. Let's be honest with ourselves: how original does 40k look?

Space Marines = star wars storm troopers (the skull shaped helmet, ya know)
dark eldar raiders = jabba the hut skimmers (from the 1st act of return of the jedi, they fly around that pit that eats people, remember?)
IG sentinals = ATST / "chicken walkers" that the ewoks fight
IG tanks = tanks
tyranids = have you seen star ship troopers?
dark eldar hellions = green goblin
tau suits = gundam
eldar jetbikes = yep, star wars return of jedi, forest jet bikes
i'm sure i missed some...

implying any of those are the "originals" or for that matter, half of those don't really resemble what you compared

Azure wrote:He's also burned down the Garden of Nurgle, destroyed a Tzeentchian city, collapsing it around a Lord of Change, and killed a Bloodthirster to purify its axe for a new weapon... Are they trying to make an internet meme out of this guy? Draigo=Chuck Norris type of deal?

Draigo doesnt do push-ups, he does Terra-Downs. . . all while wandering the warp.
When the Emporer said "Let all of mankind be united", he had to ask Draigo permission to start the crusade. . . all while wandering the warp.
Draigo actually defeated Horus, when the Emporer tried to claim this as his own feat, Draigo injured him and confined him to the Golden Throne. . . all while wandering the warp.


Okay, sorry, ill stop now. But seriously, as strange as the concept is, i kinda like the look of the DreadKnight, its like adding a More Dakka to a Dakkagun that has lotsa dakka. . . theres no kill like overkill

'Why does it have additional hydraulic lifts? - because humans like multiple redundancy?

Why are its feet the same as a Crisis suit's? Because they stole the idea from the tau and went one better?

Why is it so tall? because it's easier to llook down on everyone and everything from up there..

Why does it have a tiny shield on its shoulder? Beacuse it's a Grey Knight (they all do (at least the old metal ones) - it's for heraldry, not protection

Why does it need hands? to break necks and do WWF moves on Bloodthirsters

Why does it have hands? See above

Why is the pilot exposed? because he already has 2+ armour, so extra armourplating would be irrelevant?

Why does it have the same power-plant and torso as a Dreadnought? Because it was built by the same race, using a limited selection of blueprints?

Why isn't it just a Dreadnought? Because the imperium has too fragging many dreadnought variants already...

It's not an 'Imperial' Walker. It states specifically in the fluff that the GK won't say how they developed it. I think its a Jokareo invention.

Since you answered my questions in the form of questions, I respond with a hearty 'no.'

DarkHound wrote:

Why are its feet the same as a Crisis suit's?

Actually it has completely different and BETTER feet that probably won't break like the tau ones do.

Grey knights: battlesuiting better than your battlesuits.

I'm not a fan. I'd be much hapopier if the pilot wasn't exposed or holding those silly joysticks.

It suffers from Code Geass Syndrome, where there are no real controls, but it WALKS LIKE A MAN!

I will admit that it is a little "odd"

I think if it were just more a big robot with a GK pilot instead of a "exo suit"( I mean the marines is already in armor..who is now in another set of amour is a little silly) Which is really my main beef with it.

For an MC it is pretty tough. Its high T(str 3 cant hurt it at all) and its good save and fair amount of wounds does make it a pretty tough unit for sure.

I like that the biggest complaint so far is that this one model doesn't look "realistic" this coming from people playing space elves/orks/communists etc. in a setting designed to be as over the top and ridiculous as possible.

I like it.

I understand that I'm not as emotionally invested in this as some people though.

juraigamer wrote:You need the one special HQ to make paladins troops, termies as troops is how the ORIGINAL codex was.

Which is Draigo and from testing one of the cheesiest near impossible to kill armies I've ever seen.

Mark1130 wrote:Maybe Forge World will give us a better looking Grey Knight Mech Warrior.

Maybe that's their plan all along, release a silly-looking GW miniature and a good-looking (and more expensive) Forge World version. Can you say Sisters of Battle?

Vargtass wrote:In what way is this a 40k unit? How does this fit into the 40k Universe? This is something that would have looked good in Mech Warrior. Here it looks rediculous! Why is there a Grey Knight Terminator in a mech? And this isn't even the most rediculous part...

My immediate thought is 'How is this not a 40K unit? It's a terminator in a battle suit. It's ugly, it's crazy, it makes no sense, and it's really surprisingly cool.

Doesn't get much more 40K than that.


For what it's worth, people complained that 40K was ruined forever when the Tau were added in, as well.

BuFFo wrote:I like how an exposed 1 wound model now magically has 4 wounds like a flesh and bone creature. And, it has more survivability than a marine ENCASED in dreadnought armor.

Seriously?

It looks slowed, and it's rules are stupid.

But hey, I guess when you slap a marine on a wolf, it magically becomes one creature that is harder to kill than if he was riding an armored motorcycle.

I am SOOOOO glad Dark Eldar was done right. I really am... I feel sorry for all you marine players. This is the 40k fluff of your generation. This is your Star Wars Prequels. Enjoy.

I could not agree more.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Trickstick wrote:Even though the terminator is exposed he could take a fair amount of punishment before he was unable to function. Whereas a normal terminator would be out of the fight with a hole in his side, there is a fair chance that this guy could still continue to fight, as there is little need for physical exertion in that thing. A shot through the leg or arm would make a normal terminator less effective, yet a dreadknight would not have its combat potential greatly diminished.

His vital organs also have an extra layer of armour from the harness. I admit that the bare head is silly, but that is the same as every bare headed space marine ever made. There is always the option for the helmet.

What about 3 holes in him then?

I think if you finagled it enough, you get it to look pretty darn cool.

And like BuFFo said, 'an exposed 1 wound model now magically has 4 wounds like a flesh and bone creature. And, it has more survivability than a marine ENCASED in dreadnought armor.'

Granted, that's certainly a flaw, but haters gonna hate.

I like it.

It's stupid, but it's good stupid with an IoM styleee. A bit of a steampunk aesthetic. Lots of exposed mechanical rods and stuff.

The reason for the exposed pilot is that he is in Terminator armour.

If the mech gets knocked out, he can just jump out of his harness and continue fighting on foot. You could have a separate pilot model.

I think that would be cool.

Early edition Eldar Walkers had an exposed pilot back in the late 80s.

now i sooooooooo wish i collect gk's and not vannila marines (i dnt hve enough time or money 4 2 armies)

Something I really don't like about Online forums, is everyone jumps on the love/hate bandwagon, as if disagreeing will result in excomunication.

I think the dreadnkight looks beast - it's impractical in some ways, (many things are in 40k) but at the same time, it'd be really easy to suit up in one of those, and since GK's don't like to be kept alive in a Dreadnought anyway, this effectively (fluff wise) fills the role.

I like it, maybe leave the random hydraulics from the back, maybe power plant too, depending on how it looks... I don't even mind the pilot being exposed.

Tactical Dreadnought Armour Armour...?

Also, Dexter got there first!

Azure wrote:He's also burned down the Garden of Nurgle, destroyed a Tzeentchian city, collapsing it around a Lord of Change, and killed a Bloodthirster to purify its axe for a new weapon... Are they trying to make an internet meme out of this guy? Draigo=Chuck Norris type of deal?

This is funny because well... the Chaos gods being nigh omnipotent and all wouldn't recignize any of this at all? i mean they could blink and he would be dead

oh wait he can fight, and has found FETHING DEAMON PRIMARCHS something even the loyalist primarchs died to or had a hard time with

but noooo, he.... carved his name on mortarion's heart? wow GW wow...

You guys seem to be upset about a fictional story.

Trickstick wrote:

yearzero wrote:

Trickstick wrote: as there is little need for physical exertion in that thing.

You assume he has power steering

I think that they have sat nav as standard but the power steering is an optional extra. However, the standard voice for the sat nav is Kharn the Betrayer.

"In one point five miles, BLOOD FOR THE BLOOD GOD!"

\


May I sig this?

So basically Draigo is a Warp-Terrorist?

More like the emprah incarnate.

n0t_u wrote:More like the emprah incarnate.

yeah, when will they fire ward? this guy's got some complex about him. rule of cool to the Nth degree

I refuse to comment on the rules until I see the codex, but AFAIK a huge multi-wound monstrous creature with high toughness and a good armour save is nothing new (when you consider say a tervigon with FNP) and lets be honest, it probably has a points cost equal to 3 decently set up squads in another codex.

As for the dreadknight model, it is AWESOME! and I will probably end up orkifying one in the future as a mega-dread!

Regard all the comments on why would it exist, I see the logic being thus:
Average height of grey knight ~7ft tall
Average height of a greater daemon (a regular opponent of a grey knight) ~15ft and rising

Solution: built an awesome-sauce suit with heavy weapons and articulated fingers so you can go toe-to-toe with a greater daemon without simply being stepped on...

Personally I don't like it. I am not sure if I don't like the model or if I don't like where it's come from.

I think it's a case if this

BuFFo wrote: This is the 40k fluff of your generation. This is your Star Wars Prequels. Enjoy.

I know they have to have new ideas and freshen things up but things are starting to go a little to far.

My quibble is that there has never, to my knowledge, been anything like this mentioned for the Grey Knights ever, ever, ever.

I like things to stick somewhat to the fluff, but pulling fluff out of your ass seems to be happening more and more and it's getting ridiculous.

Have they no shame hmm hmm?!?

I hardly see the model as a 'betrayal'. What's more glaring is the change that the Grey Knights in general have undergone. No longer Fearless, lost their high Strength, lost their WS5. They're just kinda Marines with better weapons now, and no longer Elite Marines. Really kinda bland.

The Dreadknight itself looks silly. It's Doomfists aren't, they wouldn't be able to hit anything with the guns poking out in front of them, it's too tall, the baby-harness is really stupid (the exposed head more so) and the hammer is weedy. Sword and the other guns are awesome though, and the kit can be salvaged. It's not a mess like the Storm Raven, but it's not a good start.

Mukkin'About wrote:Exactly. The amount of whining i hear over this one is saddening.

Ah. It's so easy to shut down any form of debate when you just declare the other side 'haters' who are 'whining'. Makes coming up with counter-arguments unnecessary and saves so much time, doesn't it? I mean really - who wants to spend precious seconds thinking and coming up with a valid response? It's so much easier to just heap mud on the other side in the hope that they'll be too busy cleaning it off to continue fighting. Then you just declare victory and, better yet, a (mythical) moral high ground.

That picture, funny as it may be, is nothing more than a pictorial representation of an ad hominem attack.

Well, i dont know you, but i'm seeing some conversion potential for my orks in that thing.

ian1920 wrote:1. Let's be honest with ourselves: how original does 40k look?

Space Marines = star wars storm troopers (the skull shaped helmet, ya know)
dark eldar raiders = jabba the hut skimmers (from the 1st act of return of the jedi, they fly around that pit that eats people, remember?)
IG sentinals = ATST / "chicken walkers" that the ewoks fight
IG tanks = tanks
tyranids = have you seen star ship troopers?
dark eldar hellions = green goblin
tau suits = gundam
eldar jetbikes = yep, star wars return of jedi, forest jet bikes
i'm sure i missed some...

Haha. Necrons. You forgot Necrons. I just made myself sick...

ian1920 wrote:1. Let's be honest with ourselves: how original does 40k look?
Space Marines = star wars storm troopers (the skull shaped helmet, ya know)

Got it a bit wrong. Read Starship Troopers

Not that Heinlein invented the idea of a 'Bug War' either.

As for me, I see the problems with the Dreadknight. I personally think with a tiny bit of conversion it'll be an awesome looking model, and if I wasn't broke/invested in other projects, I'd pick one up just to paint. That being said, I will be reserving judgement on the cheesiness of Grey Knight armies until I see them on the tabletop. They are definitely going to change the meta up significantly, but we'll make do and adapt, just like we always did.

I'm just more worried that we'll just see hordes of Grey Knights swarming the field nowadays. In allhonesty, it will not be fun to see armies of like 12 nigh-invincible models killing everything.

I just realized why they made this thing...



As for the killing 40k part, no, I still love 40k, but the Grey Knights didn't deserve this. Draigos? that! If I knew that abomination existed I would have included him in the original post.

It's not an aweful model, it would have looked fine in any other setting, but not in the 40k I know, remember and still play. Feth the Dreadknight and feth Draigos.

H.B.M.C. wrote:

Mukkin'About wrote:Exactly. The amount of whining i hear over this one is saddening.

That picture, funny as it may be, is nothing more than a pictorial representation of an ad hominem attack.

I could go on a rant about how it's silly to shoot down every aspect of a model yet still buy it at the end of the day because it's in the book and it's the most competitive option.
I think that a lot of people are hating it just because. Maybe I just don't care enough to nitpick it. Maybe i'm just not willing to find reasons to hate everything GW puts out lately.
What my point is that, if you guys hate the minis so much and have such problems with the rules.. why do you even play?

BuFFo wrote:I feel sorry for all you marine players. This is the 40k fluff of your generation. This is your Star Wars Prequels. Enjoy.

Sigged.

One thing that's been driving me crazy...look at this:
http://www.games-workshop.com/gws/catalog/productDetail.jsp?catId=cat1140001&prodId=prod1160009a&rootCatGameStyle=
On the GW website, look at the entry for Grey Knights, and then look at the 3rd pic from the left. What the hell are those things sticking off of their backs?!

Baby harness or not, how is a marine encased in terminator armour...."exposed"?

UberhAxTHC wrote:One thing that's been driving me crazy...look at this:
http://www.games-workshop.com/gws/catalog/productDetail.jsp?catId=cat1140001&prodId=prod1160009a&rootCatGameStyle=
On the GW website, look at the entry for Grey Knights, and then look at the 3rd pic from the left. What the hell are those things sticking off of their backs?!

Teleporters as I understand it...

I'm really starting to think that the leaked GK codex was just a really well done fake...and this thing is really selling it to me. I can't believe they would make a model like this have a wounds characteristic when they already have something almost the exact same in the Eldar WarWalker that has an AV...it just seems too stupid to be true. That, and everything else.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Vargtass wrote:

UberhAxTHC wrote:One thing that's been driving me crazy...look at this:
http://www.games-workshop.com/gws/catalog/productDetail.jsp?catId=cat1140001&prodId=prod1160009a&rootCatGameStyle=
On the GW website, look at the entry for Grey Knights, and then look at the 3rd pic from the left. What the hell are those things sticking off of their backs?!

Teleporters as I understand it...

Seriously? They better not be...that would just be one more dumb thing about GK...do terminators have these dumb things sticking off their backs? No...but they teleport just fine...do you see these things on Blood Angel's Land Raider? They can teleport, from what I hear...did the previous grey knight teleport attack squads have these things? No...but they were just fine. So, why do I have such a problem with this? Because now all the WYSIWYG gamers are going to force people to put stupid pieces on their models...damn you GW...damn you...

This, of course, assuming you ever use the teleport attack squads...(some people are different, I dunno...)

Its been rumored that this is a FA slot for GK, they can make one 36" move.

Seriously? They better not be...that would just be one more dumb thing about GK...do terminators have these dumb things sticking off their backs? No...but they teleport just fine...do you see these things on Blood Angel's Land Raider? They can teleport, from what I hear...did the previous grey knight teleport attack squads have these things? No...but they were just fine. So, why do I have such a problem with this? Because now all the WYSIWYG gamers are going to force people to put stupid pieces on their models...damn you GW...damn you...

They're PERSONAL teleporters....not requiring an orbiting ship basically.

IronfrontAlex wrote:Its been rumored that this is a FA slot for GK, they can make one 36" move.

Appropriate? Lazy? Stupid?

Really, I wanted to like the new Grey Knight but I am starting to loose brain cells here...

IronfrontAlex wrote:Its been rumored that this is a FA slot for GK, they can make one 36" move.

It's only 30, and once per game. But come on now...fluff wise...we have teleporting grey knights that move like jump infantry? Are you seriously telling me that the imperium has the technology to just constantly teleport all over the place? Why the hell do they even have rhinos if they could just do this...another rape of fluff by Codex: Grey Knights...

AND WHY DOESN'T IT COUNT AS DEEP STRIKING?!

UberhAxTHC wrote:

IronfrontAlex wrote:Its been rumored that this is a FA slot for GK, they can make one 36" move.

It's only 30, and once per game. But come on now...fluff wise...we have teleporting grey knights that move like jump infantry? Are you seriously telling me that the imperium has the technology to just constantly teleport all over the place? Why the hell do they even have rhinos if they could just do this...another rape of fluff by Codex: Grey Knights...

Not the Imperium, the Grey Knights.

The Grey Knights...are part of the Imperium...

UberhAxTHC wrote:The Grey Knights...are part of the Imperium...

They are the elite of the elite of the elite.

You dont think they 'might' have some equiptment that is unavailiable to the common guardsman...or even marine?

Some military equiptment is simply too rare/expensive to hand out willy nilly to every line troop one has.



Regular military men have rifles. James Bond has a pen that shoots an explosive bullet.

Knights have full plate armour. Squires have not.

Jedi have Lightsabers. Stormtroopers do not.

This is the IoM we're talking about here...if they have something at their disposal, they will abuse the hell out of it in the name of the emperor. Nothing is sacred. Nothing is "special". Space Marines are supposed to be elite...but can you give me even a remotely accurate number of how many of them exist in the 40k universe? And you don't think that the IoM would replicate teleport homers in the exact same way? Hell, even make it part of the creation process of power armor...so they all have it. It's just another thing GW never thought about, but did anyways.


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Deadshane1 wrote:

UberhAxTHC wrote:The Grey Knights...are part of the Imperium...

They are the elite of the elite of the elite.

You dont think they 'might' have some equiptment that is unavailiable to the common guardsman...or even marine?

Some military equiptment is simply too rare/expensive to hand out willy nilly to every line troop one has.



Regular military men have rifles. James Bond has a pen that shoots an explosive bullet.

Knights have full plate armour. Squires have not.

Jedi have Lightsabers. Stormtroopers do not.

James Bond can do anything, he's freaking James Bond. He can even be anyone, for that matter. James Bond is practically Jesus. That one doesn't count.

If a knight wanted his squire to have armor, he would have armor...so squires could have armor.

True, Jedi have lightsabers. And then General Grievous picked some up, and then he was using them too. And Jedis personally craft their own lightsaber. And before the wars, there were a gakload of Jedi. Just sayin.

What you're saying implies that the Imperium has scarce to limited resources. They don't. They rule the freaking galaxy. I'm not saying this because I'm an Imperium fan, I actually play Chaos. I'm saying it because it's true. They craft titans and ships that dwarf planets. Are you seriously telling me that they couldn't scrap one titan to make enough of these teleporters for an army? Because personally, I think it would be no problem for them. Which is why I find the things so stupid in the first place. They break fluff, just like the rest of the terribly codex...

UberhAxTHC wrote:This is the IoM we're talking about here...if they have something at their disposal, they will abuse the hell out of it in the name of the emperor. Nothing is sacred. Nothing is "special". Space Marines are supposed to be elite...but can you give me even a remotely accurate number of how many of them exist in the 40k universe? And you don't think that the IoM would replicate teleport homers in the exact same way? Hell, even make it part of the creation process of power armor...so they all have it. It's just another thing GW never thought about, but did anyways.

The IoM treats technology like relics. Reverse engineering can only get you so far and the AdMech don't really understand the principles behind half of their stuff which is why their is such long production time on Land Raiders and Terminator suits and all the good stuff.

Which is so totally represented in the game when your opponent takes 3 land raiders...or worse...3 Dreadknights...

If grey knights are suppossed to be anti-daemon. Why arent they built to kill daemons? daemons lack in anti-vehicle so we'll make the dreadknight have toughness so nurgle can kill it much easier. : D
Same thing with them having so much anti-tank, how common are soul grinders again?

It's a ridiculous metagame codex, full of

UberhAxTHC wrote:It's a ridiculous metagame codex, full of

Awwwwwww....


Another Chicken Little here gentlemen, just like we had with the wolves, BA, DE, and every other codex before it came out.

Deadshane1 wrote:

UberhAxTHC wrote:It's a ridiculous metagame codex, full of

Awwwwwww....


Another Chicken Little here gentlemen, just like we had with the wolves, BA, DE, and every other codex before it came out.

Note the general lack of surprise in pretty much anyone...

UberhAxTHC wrote:I'm saying it because it's true.

No... Its made up... Its not real... Its a game.

Just so you know.

Going by that, if it's a game, then it's something. If it's something, then it's real. If it's real, it exists. Do you hold your codex up and read about nothing? Do you go on these forums and post about nothing? No, you're talking about a game here, a game, something that exists and is real, with actual physical proof of existence with rules and models. And the stories that go with them? Just as real as you want them to be. Although it would be a little easier, if the damn stories actually made sense.

UberhAxTHC wrote:Going by that, if it's a game, then it's something. If it's something, then it's real. If it's real, it exists. Do you hold your codex up and read about nothing? Do you go on these forums and post about nothing? No, you're talking about a game here, a game, something that exists and is real, with actual physical proof of existence with rules and models. And the stories that go with them? Just as real as you want them to be. Although it would be a little easier, if the damn stories actually made sense.

They do make sense...

Mukkin'About wrote:
I could go on a rant about how it's silly to shoot down every aspect of a model yet still buy it at the end of the day because it's in the book and it's the most competitive option.
I think that a lot of people are hating it just because. Maybe I just don't care enough to nitpick it. Maybe i'm just not willing to find reasons to hate everything GW puts out lately.
What my point is that, if you guys hate the minis so much and have such problems with the rules.. why do you even play?

And then, when the mud doesn't stick, you puff up your arguments with as much straw as possible. We call these types of arguments 'strawman' arguments.

1. '... but still buy it at the end of the day... the most competitive option'.

I don't remember saying that I would buy it because it was the most competitive option? In fact, I don't remember saying that I was going to buy it at all. If you're going to attempt to paint all of those criticising the Dreadknight with the same brush, make sure you pick the right colour...

2. 'Maybe i'm just not willing to find reasons to hate everything GW puts out lately.'

One of the easiest logical fallacies one can enact during a discussion such as this is exaggeration. Put a lot of straw into your opponent's words (ie. exaggerate their words) until the concept is so absurd that it's easy to beat down. This is a fine example of such a thing. I - and once again Mukkin'About you are replying to me, and no one else, which must mean you see me as guilty of what you claim - have said nothing about hating 'everything' that GW has put out lately. In fact, my initial response to the new GK models was overwhelmingly positive. I have criticism of a few aspects of the PAGK's, and a lot of criticisms of the Dreadknight, but none of these can be combined or construed as '[hating] everything GW [has put] out lately'.

The other interesting part of above the quote is the use of the word 'find'. This is another method of dismissing someone else's point of view rather than making counter points. If you purport what they think to be imaginary (ie. they had to 'find/invent/make up' reasons for their views) then it allows you to dismiss them as 'not real' rather than actually looking for reasons why they are wrong. Well done Mukkin'About - I almost missed that one.

3. 'I think that a lot of people are hating it just because.'

What a stellar example of critical thinking. Bravo.

4. 'What my point is that, if you guys hate the minis so much and have such problems with the rules.. why do you even play?'

Ahh! The pièce de résistance! The most tired and trotted out attempt at an argument you'll ever see at Dakka (outside of the YMDC forum that is). "If you don't like it, why do you play." Of course applying any level of logic to such a line of thinking will show just what a feeble line it is. Why? Because the logical opposite of 'if you don't like it don't play' is 'you must like everything in order to play'.

Let's take this flimsy bit of logic - the most desperate of desperate arguments - and apply it to some other situations shall we:

I love Stargate. Stargate has LOADS of really crappy episodes. By your logic, if I don't like those episodes, I should stop watching the show, right? I mean, that's what happens when we take the 'if you don't like/then don't use' line of logic and apply it there?

What about Dawn of War? I like playing Dawn of War. There are aspects of the game though that infuriate me and detract from the gaming experience. Should I stop playing altogether? These things annoy me. I don't like them. And if I don't like them, I should stop playing - yes? That's the point we're making here, correct?

No. Of course it's not. Because there's no point to be made. "If you don't like it then stop playing" is about the most straw-filled strawman you can say around these parts. It's meaningless, it has no substance to it (besides the easy-to-attack straw filling), and doesn't make any sense. It makes the core assumption that because one doesn't like one thing, or two things, or ten things, that this person must obviously hate EVERYTHING, and that's a complete load of nonsense.

Mukkin'About, not everyone likes everything in equal measure. It is possible for someone to like something, but find flaws in what they like. I don't like the Dreadknight. I don't see that as a good enough reason for me to stop playing the game. Think that over, ok?

Are you kidding me? Did you read this forum?

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/347540.page

UberhAxTHC wrote:Are you kidding me? Did you read this forum?

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/347540.page

Of course the thread that was blatantly kidding about the GK Codex...

How bout this one then?
http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/352292.page

Oh shoosh UberhAxTHX! The doom and gloom routine is getting old. Codex Creep exists, units are made better to sell more models, and nothing is actually balanced (not the core rules, not the Codices). None of this is new. It is the same routine we go through every time a new Codex comes out. This one is not more 'broken' or more 'powerful' than any other new Codex - within 3 months the same netdeck lists will fill the tournaments, and life will continue.

It's really not that big a deal.

And for the record, any 'complaint' thread started by Kyoto is not a real complaint thread.

UberhAxTHC wrote:
What you're saying implies that the Imperium has scarce to limited resources. They don't. They rule the freaking galaxy. I'm not saying this because I'm an Imperium fan, I actually play Chaos. I'm saying it because it's true. They craft titans and ships that dwarf planets. Are you seriously telling me that they couldn't scrap one titan to make enough of these teleporters for an army? Because personally, I think it would be no problem for them. Which is why I find the things so stupid in the first place. They break fluff, just like the rest of the terribly codex...

Yeah, because sending non-Grey Knights through the warp to another position sounds really clever, right? And yes, I know they do it to terminators already, but not that often. The Omperium simply doesn't have any interest in getting their armies corrupted by Chaos. Whoa, wait a minute! Did I just prove that this was completely reasonable within the existing fluff? NO WAY!

I don't actually have a problem with their rules...well, besides the teleporting grey knights that count as jump infantry, because, well...
I have a problem with codex gk tearing apart the fluff of chaos even more than the last chaos codex did. You carved his name into Mortarion's heart? Are you serious? Did he stand there and let you?!

UberhAxTHC wrote:How bout this one then?
http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/352292.page

Yep...
Draigo is a badass.

AlmightyWalrus wrote:

UberhAxTHC wrote:
What you're saying implies that the Imperium has scarce to limited resources. They don't. They rule the freaking galaxy. I'm not saying this because I'm an Imperium fan, I actually play Chaos. I'm saying it because it's true. They craft titans and ships that dwarf planets. Are you seriously telling me that they couldn't scrap one titan to make enough of these teleporters for an army? Because personally, I think it would be no problem for them. Which is why I find the things so stupid in the first place. They break fluff, just like the rest of the terribly codex...

Yeah, because sending non-Grey Knights through the warp to another position sounds really clever, right? And yes, I know they do it to terminators already, but not that often. The Omperium simply doesn't have any interest in getting their armies corrupted by Chaos. Whoa, wait a minute! Did I just prove that this was completely reasonable within the existing fluff? NO WAY!

Not really, seeing as how you have no proof that the teleport homers actually send them through the warp...and like you said, terminators do it in small bursts all the time, which is exactly what these guys are doing. Plus, the teleport move doesn't follow the rules for deep strike, which if it sent them through the warp, I would feel would have to be the case...

UberhAxTHC wrote:I don't actually have a problem with their rules...well, besides the teleporting grey knights that count as jump infantry, because, well...
I have a problem with codex gk tearing apart the fluff of chaos even more than the last chaos codex did. You carved his name into Mortarion's heart? Are you serious? Did he stand there and let you?!

I'd assume he beat the out of him first.

Well there we can agree. I don't hate the GK Codex because of its rules - it invalidated my army, sure, but beyond that I don't really give a toss whether the GK's are the new Necrons or the new Leafblower. What I do care about is the fluff (and what Matt Ward's done to it) and the models (which I mostly like).

For some people here that's the start of a healthy conversation. For others it's a chance to trot out the "If you don't like it stop playing you whining hater!!!" nonsense.

purplefood wrote:

UberhAxTHC wrote:How bout this one then?
http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/352292.page

Yep...
Draigo is a badass.

It's good that you have that attitude about him...but I'm betting you're not a chaos player, or even like chaos for that matter. This guy is a huge middle finger to every CSM or Daemon player in the game right now, straight from Matt Ward...


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purplefood wrote:

UberhAxTHC wrote:I don't actually have a problem with their rules...well, besides the teleporting grey knights that count as jump infantry, because, well...
I have a problem with codex gk tearing apart the fluff of chaos even more than the last chaos codex did. You carved his name into Mortarion's heart? Are you serious? Did he stand there and let you?!

I'd assume he beat the out of him first.

So he had the chance to kill him, and he does this instead? So he's slowed on top of everything else?

UberhAxTHC wrote:

purplefood wrote:

UberhAxTHC wrote:How bout this one then?
http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/352292.page

Yep...
Draigo is a badass.

It's good that you have that attitude about him...but I'm betting you're not a chaos player, or even like chaos for that matter. This guy is a huge middle finger to every CSM or Daemon player in the game right now, straight from Matt Ward...


Automatically Appended Next Post:

purplefood wrote:

UberhAxTHC wrote:I don't actually have a problem with their rules...well, besides the teleporting grey knights that count as jump infantry, because, well...
I have a problem with codex gk tearing apart the fluff of chaos even more than the last chaos codex did. You carved his name into Mortarion's heart? Are you serious? Did he stand there and let you?!

I'd assume he beat the out of him first.

So he had the chance to kill him, and he does this instead? So he's slowed on top of everything else?

I really like Chaos. The Alpha Legion are my favorite Legion with Night Lords pulling 2nd place.
His fluff is like a lot of fluff, it's OTT but this is Sci-Fantasy not Sci-Fi.
Sometimes sending a message is more important than killing a god.
Sometimes that message is "I could have killed you but instead i decided to write my name on your heart. Never forget i can do that."

Also, a bad idea. I want Draigo dead at the hands of Mortarion himself. Now. And if we're getting characters so OTT now, why don't we have primarchs as playable SC now? I've seen so many custom built models for Fulgrim...it would be so nice to field him. XD

Whoops, scratch that. Just looked him up, and apparently Fulgrim is sealed inside of a painting of himself...no fun taking a painting to war, now is it? Although that does seem awfully Slaanesh like to do so...

UberhAxTHC wrote:Also, a bad idea. I want Draigo dead at the hands of Mortarion himself. Now. And if we're getting characters so OTT now, why don't we have primarchs as playable SC now? I've seen so many custom built models for Fulgrim...it would be so nice to field him. XD

Whoops, scratch that. Just looked him up, and apparently Fulgrim is sealed inside of a painting of himself...no fun taking a painting to war, now is it? Although that does seem awfully Slaanesh like to do so...

OTT fluff not OTT rules.
BA have Space Jesus and Totally-not-Daemon
SW have pretty much all their characters with odd fluff.
Guard have Arnie and Marbo with a sprinkle of that strangest of internet memes.
Chaos get Kharn and Scooby-doo.
SM have Mac and his fists of fury.
Etc etc across the armies.
This is just the fluff remember so no shouting at me 'cos so and so is rubbish or underpowered.

Vargtass wrote:

"Autobots, engage!"

This... is the epitome of GW failure. And I thought the Stormraven was bad. What next, orks with wings? A titan in the form of a space marine? a gigantic gun on a wee metal horse? seriously? If GW continues like this, I might just find and switch over to another sci fi range.

Guard have Yarrick....
who cut a Warboss arm and stick into his own arm, he also can lift the arm and make it function

we have to accept , Sometime Fluff won't make sense

Retrias wrote:Guard have Yarrick....
who cut a Warboss arm and stick into his own arm, he also can lift the arm and make it function

we have to accept , Sometime Fluff won't make sense

As long as the miniatures created make sense when visualised, that's fine by me. As long as GW keeps Transformers out of their miniature lies, that's also fine by me. I just feel this. What's it gonna cost? around 50 euro's? Ech.

Matt Ward sucks. Period. Seems every codex he does gets more rediculos than the previous.

At this rate, the last codex to be redone, will be 1 page, with 1 model, with stats of 11 and a special rule, you field this you win automatically.

F'n Ward. Wish this ahole would disapear.

Rumor has it, he's had his filthy hands on the new Necrons codex.

It's only the marine codices though, give him a non-marine one and it would probably suck pretty badly.

UberhAxTHC wrote:This guy is a huge middle finger to every CSM or Daemon player in the game right now, straight from Matt Ward...

Ummmm...

GOOD.

That's basically the point of Grey Knights to begin with. It's a last FU from the Emperor before ascending to the Golden Toilet.

As a CSM, Daemon, AND GK player, they needed a character who was more than just Brother-Captain "I'm doomed to eternally fight against this one Lord of Change repeatedly" Stern. As someone stated earlier, he's the Grand Master of the greatest Astartes chapter, badassery is a requirement.

what are you complaining about, the dreadknight looks awesome. (even if it does LOOk a bit like a APU). Terminators as troops??? so what? Of course Kaldor draigo is... chuck norris , matt wards fault.

H.B.M.C. wrote: Lecture on internet arguments

Grats for totally blowing a half-ass reply out of proportion and taking it as a personal attack... and then completely tearing me a new ass. I know you're a highly respected dakka user, but did you really have to take out all your pent up frustrations out on me??
I'm sorry, alright? i read it all over very carefully and i see the point you've gone to great lengths to make. I'll make sure that i refrain from making generalizations. And i'll brush up on my latin

UberhAxTHC wrote:

AlmightyWalrus wrote:

UberhAxTHC wrote:
What you're saying implies that the Imperium has scarce to limited resources. They don't. They rule the freaking galaxy. I'm not saying this because I'm an Imperium fan, I actually play Chaos. I'm saying it because it's true. They craft titans and ships that dwarf planets. Are you seriously telling me that they couldn't scrap one titan to make enough of these teleporters for an army? Because personally, I think it would be no problem for them. Which is why I find the things so stupid in the first place. They break fluff, just like the rest of the terribly codex...

Yeah, because sending non-Grey Knights through the warp to another position sounds really clever, right? And yes, I know they do it to terminators already, but not that often. The Omperium simply doesn't have any interest in getting their armies corrupted by Chaos. Whoa, wait a minute! Did I just prove that this was completely reasonable within the existing fluff? NO WAY!

Not really, seeing as how you have no proof that the teleport homers actually send them through the warp...and like you said, terminators do it in small bursts all the time, which is exactly what these guys are doing. Plus, the teleport move doesn't follow the rules for deep strike, which if it sent them through the warp, I would feel would have to be the case...

Oh, my bad. I forgot that logic has no place in fluff-discussion...

Mark1130 wrote:
Rumor has it, he's had his filthy hands on the new Necrons codex.

Get ready for your Gauss Warriors with Gauss Rifles that can buy Gauss Gaussfists and Gauss Gaussgrenades. Now, they can teleport anywhere on the field through the Gauss Portal from the Gauss Matrix of the Gauss Monogauss. I mean. . monolith.

Retrias wrote:Guard have Yarrick....
who cut a Warboss arm and stick into his own arm, he also can lift the arm and make it function

we have to accept , Sometime Fluff won't make sense

Er no. He cut off a Warboss' powerklaw and had it surgically grafted to an augmetic arm--replacing the arm that he'd had severed by that Warboss.

Why? Because Yarrick's entire schtick is that he's an 'expert' on Orkish psychology. He knows that if Orks see 'dat 'umie wif da Boss' klaw!' they'll be far more terrified than the 'Oi, dat 'umie's got a funny fing on 'is arm' reaction he'd get with an augmetic arm.

Hell: he had his left eye replaced with a laser just for that purpose.

Deadshane1 wrote:Baby harness or not, how is a marine encased in terminator armour...."exposed"?

Apparently;y this is what happens.

Terminator = 1 wound.
Terminator + Body harness = 4 Wounds.

I love democracy. But a tragedy has occurred today.

The four wounds also probably refers to the actual suit itself, not just the terminator.

Ssssh, you're bringing rationality into it now.

Yes, the likelihood is the wounds represents the fact it is a lot harder to take down a huge stonking great exo suit than it is to disable the terminator itself.

The thread title is so wonderously over dramatic, proper net drama title!

Well before long there will be another model for the internet to go crazy over and the Baby Carriage Dread will be a thing of the past

Melissia wrote:The four wounds also probably refers to the actual suit itself, not just the terminator.

Yeah, I can see that, but if the toughness comes from the suit, then why isn't just vehicle like a marine in tactical dreadnought armor?



I am just confused. Take a dreadnought, remove it's driver, bolt him onto the front and harness him in, and now the dreadnought becomes harder to kill?

There has to be a limit when it comes to believability in fiction. Things just don't happen for no reason in good fiction. This dreadknght is the equivalent of, um, imagine you are watching Bladerunner and half way through the movie Harrison Ford opens his mouth and a gout of flame shouts out, burning the robots around him.

Just because it is fiction doesn't mean you can just suspend disbelief over anything. There has to be a limit within the confines of the fiction that still makes sense to the overall story. For me, in 40k, after decades of tactical dreadnought armor being the iron horse of the Adeptus Astartes, some GK genius decided to ride on the OUTSIDE of one, and is now tougher and harder to kill? I guess our military has it wrong. Our drivers need to be steering our tanks on the HOOD of the tank, because doing so makes the tank tougher!

Ever time in 40k fiction there was an instance of a driver outside a suit of armor, the vehicle is weaker than normal. Penitent Engines? Even Warwalkers. Sentinels? Hell, you need to ENCLOSE the driver to raise the sentinels armor to 12! IG are stupid. Didn't they know that if the sentinel driver just stood on top of the thing on the outside, he would gain more wounds and make his vehicle immune to exploding?

Oh wait.... My dark Eldar Talos is basically a guy strapped to the outsdie of a machine... Oh wait, but it still sucks... Never mind, carry on...

Platuan4th wrote:As someone stated earlier, he's the Grand Master of the greatest Astartes chapter, badassery is a requirement.

There is a difference between 'badass' and 'Mary Sue'. Make Draigo a badass, sure. He should be badass. BUt make him badass in a way that doesn't make him a Mary Sue. A good author is able to do this.

Agreed. I see no reason that this model should be considered a monstrous critter instead of a vehicle. Penitent engines, sentinels, warwalkers - all vehicles, all exposed pilots. This thing, 4 wounds on a 2+ save, with T7 to deny volume-of-fire kills...

I like all the other new GK models, and the new orc/goblin range (I reckon a giant spider could be converted to serve as a battle-wagon stand-in somehow). But this thing looks wrong.

ChrisWWII wrote:

Platuan4th wrote:As someone stated earlier, he's the Grand Master of the greatest Astartes chapter, badassery is a requirement.

There is a difference between 'badass' and 'Mary Sue'. Make Draigo a badass, sure. He should be badass. BUt make him badass in a way that doesn't make him a Mary Sue. A good author is able to do this.

I've heard this before. What does Mary Sue mean in writing?

nosferatu1001 wrote:The thread title is so wonderously over dramatic, proper net drama title!

Thank you, that was my inner troll that had the idea that the titel would attract people here to have a discussion/feed me the comfort that I am not the only one who dislikes this huge mini (paradox).

Noir Eternal wrote:Well before long there will be another model for the internet to go crazy over and the Baby Carriage Dread will be a thing of the past

Of course, just wait til the Crons come out, I bet you I can find something hideously ugly/fluff tearing there too.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

BuFFo wrote:

ChrisWWII wrote:

Platuan4th wrote:As someone stated earlier, he's the Grand Master of the greatest Astartes chapter, badassery is a requirement.

There is a difference between 'badass' and 'Mary Sue'. Make Draigo a badass, sure. He should be badass. BUt make him badass in a way that doesn't make him a Mary Sue. A good author is able to do this.

I've heard this before. What does Mary Sue mean in writing?

Actually this would be more of a Martial Stue, but the premise is the same: The character is so over the top awesome/lovable/perfect that he's essentially a badly written Fan-fic character.

Answering some of these RAWR posts using the leaked codex:

Dreadknight exposed pilot - Written fluff says that it has an adamantium-alloy skeleton, bonded-ceramite plates, armored control linkages. Also, 'the all but impenetrable force field that protects the otherwise exposed pilot.

Dreadnight controls 'Synaptic implants give him complete control of the walker's limbs and weapons systems'

Draigo Mary Sue
Mary Sue is a character with many great features, no flaws that serves as an author proxy.

Draigo, if you actually read the fluff rather than just react to second-hand internet hate, is a powerful space marine hero doomed to walk for eternity in the realms of chaos. His great works are tempered by the fact that they are explicitly all meaningless. Only on the occasion that he is able to get into realspace does anything he does last.
Not only that, but his fluff is specifically listed as a legend and tale at least 2 or 3 times.

I think I saw someone call him the GK Jesus, and I think that's right, but not the way they think. In some ways, Draigo is the GK's hopes and fears wrapped into one. He is their hope in that he is an example of how a GK can be strong enough to defeat the daemons with just the strength of his arms and faith in the Emperor. He is their fears, because ultimately Draigo's acts are washed away by time and Chaos and this is probably the fear of many in the Inquisition and GK, that all they do will not be enough in the face of their great foe.

Add to this to the fact that Draigo may effectively be one of the oldest living spacemarines (excepting perhaps 13th company or chaos marines), as at least three or four times they refer to the 'uncounted ages' that he has walked in the RoC, I think it makes him make a bit more sense.

People just want to knee jerk hate things because it gets them post counts and attention. If the internet spent some time actually thinking, rather than reacting, discourse might be a bit more enjoyable.

A Mary Sue is a character who is just over the top. They're awesome at everything, everyone loves them, they're just so so awesome! It's most common in bad fanfic, where the author just does a self insert character. That self insert character tends to become the center of attetnion.

I've read the fluff for Draigo. I still think it's rdiciulous and over the top. No Space Marine should be able to curbstomp a Primarch. And that's ignoring the fact that the daemon Primarchs almost never leave their homeworlds in the Eye of Terror, and when they do it's a big freaking deal. Note, First War for Armageddon. If Mortarion is out walking around in the Imperium, he's going to be a big enough deal that we should have some fluff for that!

But even then, what killed Draigo for me is what he did once he got sucked into the Warp. If they had ended it there, and said that he sometimes reappears to help the chapter out, I'd be fine with it. I might even think he's badass. He'd be like that Ghost Terminators guy...it's the right amount of mystery to make it awesome without being OTT. However, once we got treated to the paragraph after paragraph of Draigo kicking the asses of the Chaos gods in turn that he turned into a Mary Sue. It's when the codex said that the daemons are too scared of him now. THAT was the final nail.

Honestly I think some walkers SHOULD be monstrous creatures. The Penitent Engine for example.

Trickstick wrote:I don't see the problem, but then I must be crazy because I like the stormraven too. I do think that the hammer is a bit small but that is easy to fix. Also, why not post a better looking picture?



Also, how could they ever think terminators as troops was fair? *cough, Belial, cough*

I mean, it is hardly as if the grey knights are supposed to be an elite army with high tech equipment is it?

I like this build better than the hammer one. I don't mind the model, don't love it, but it doesn't offend me either.

I am pretty sure the Dreadnought is T6 not T7.

I read so much of the codex yesterday though its hard to remember everything

Leak was T7

The hammer does look rather goofy. It looks like a judge's hammer than a serious weapon.

pretre wrote:
Draigo, if you actually read the fluff rather than just react to second-hand internet hate, is a powerful space marine hero doomed to walk for eternity in the realms of chaos. His great works are tempered by the fact that they are explicitly all meaningless. Only on the occasion that he is able to get into realspace does anything he does last.

And what people have qualms with is that he rose through the ranks of the Grey Knights to become Grand Master while. . .stuck in the warp. . .? While "his great works are explicitly all meaningless"?

It's the OTT fluff that earns Mat Ward such hatred. As someone else pointed out in this thread - Mortarion - a daemon primarch - just lay there giggling whilst Draigo carved his predecessor's name into his heart?

Well during play testing maybe the points didn't justify it. At T7 Melta and Missle starts wounding on 3+ instead of that easy 2+

Plasma is also much less effective then as well.

I think at T6 it would be nearly as overpowered as originally thought.

It can easily get to 200 points with weapon options

Or it could have been that he was promoted to Grandmaster before he was banished, in a later battle, to the Warp by M'Kar.

M'Kar is, unless my memory has completely blown out on me, a Greater Daemon of Tzeentch.

Mortarion is a Primarch dedicated to Nurgle.

The two wouldn't be caught on the battlefield together, ever. At least not as allies.

pretre wrote:Dreadknight exposed pilot - Written fluff says that it has an adamantium-alloy skeleton, bonded-ceramite plates, armored control linkages. Also, 'the all but impenetrable force field that protects the otherwise exposed pilot.

Granted, but it still looks stupid.

pretre wrote:Dreadnight controls 'Synaptic implants give him complete control of the walker's limbs and weapons systems'

Oh my, well why does he have steering sticks then?

pretre wrote:Draigo, if you actually read the fluff rather than just react to second-hand internet hate...

Way to dismiss our critique.

pretre wrote:...is a powerful space marine hero doomed to walk for eternity in the realms of chaos. His great works are tempered by the fact that they are explicitly all meaningless. [] Not only that, but his fluff is specifically listed as a legend and tale at least 2 or 3 times.

Ok, so why is he Supreme Grand Master of the Grey Knights? As someone said earlier, I hope he has good reception in the Warp, otherwise he might have a problem doing his job.

pretre wrote:I think I saw someone call him the GK Jesus, and I think that's right, but not the way they think. In some ways, Draigo is the GK's hopes and fears wrapped into one. He is their hope in that he is an example of how a GK can be strong enough to defeat the daemons with just the strength of his arms and faith in the Emperor. He is their fears, because ultimately Draigo's acts are washed away by time and Chaos and this is probably the fear of many in the Inquisition and GK, that all they do will not be enough in the face of their great foe.

A good point and a thing that would fit well in the setting, would GW actually thought of it themselves.

pretre wrote:Add to this to the fact that Draigo may effectively be one of the oldest living spacemarines (excepting perhaps 13th company or chaos marines), as at least three or four times they refer to the 'uncounted ages' that he has walked in the RoC, I think it makes him make a bit more sense.

This is actually the most Mary Sue of all. Do tell me, did he play Seeker in the Gryffindor team as well?

pretre wrote:People just want to knee jerk hate things because it gets them post counts and attention. If the internet spent some time actually thinking, rather than reacting, discourse might be a bit more enjoyable.

Nothing to say here, I am just a knee jerk who hates thing because it gets me post counts after all... <,<

Kanluwen wrote:Or it could have been that he was promoted to Grandmaster before he was banished, in a later battle, to the Warp by M'Kar.

Maybe so, but the blurb on the website (I know, nothing to go by, but all I have right now, at work), is that he fought M'kar while a lowly battle brother, then was banished and rose to the ranks of Grand Master.

Melissia wrote:Honestly I think some walkers SHOULD be monstrous creatures. The Penitent Engine for example.

Yeah, I wouldn't have a problem with this if it was done across the board. A little consistency on GW's part, ya know?

Rumors have it that Black Templars will have a Marine riding a Rhino, C.S. Goto style. This new model will have 5 wounds and isn't a vehicle anymore.

puma713 wrote:[
And what people have qualms with is that he rose through the ranks of the Grey Knights to become Grand Master while. . .stuck in the warp. . .? While "his great works are explicitly all meaningless"?

It's the OTT fluff that earns Mat Ward such hatred. As someone else pointed out in this thread - Mortarion - a daemon primarch - just lay there giggling whilst Draigo carved his predecessor's name into his heart?

Wrong.

"The tale of Kaldor Draigo truly begaon on the world of Acralem, during the Daemon incursion of 799.M41..." snip
So 102 years from when he helped defeat a Daemon Prince, to when he is made SGM.
"He became Supreme Grand Master in the early days of 901.M41, following the slaugher of the previous Chapter Lord at the hands of the Daemon Primarch Mortarion, and his first act was to carve his forebear's name upon Mortarion's rotting heart - an insult that the Daemon has never forgotten."
Then two hundred more until he is lost to the RoC.
"Two hundred years to the day since Draigo's victory on Acralem, an... goes on to describe the circumstances of his banishment."
Since then all of his works fade and are meaningless, except for the few times he comes to realspace.
"Yet if the Dark Gods could not vanquish Draigo, then nor could Draigo win any meaningful victory. The Daemons he slew inevitably returned in new bodies, Nugble's mighty jungle regrew from the ashes and even the tumbled walls of the Inevitable City righted themselves."
"Such has been Draigo's fate ever repeated since to walk the RoC for unknowable spans of time, on occasion taking his eternal battle into the mortal world for brief spans befor being freshly jailed upon victory. "

And I gave you the Mortarion heart carving earlier. My theory is that Mortarion was waving his heart around squirting blood on people and generally being a pain in the butt. Draigo said 'Hey look, it's Magnus!' and did a quick J on the heart with his blade.

I like how people automatically call every Space Marine SC a Mary Sue.

Yes, they are over the top, this is 40k.

Kanluwen wrote:Or it could have been that he was promoted to Grandmaster before he was banished, in a later battle, to the Warp by M'Kar.

M'Kar is, unless my memory has completely blown out on me, a Greater Daemon of Tzeentch.

Mortarion is a Primarch dedicated to Nurgle.

The two wouldn't be caught on the battlefield together, ever. At least not as allies.

As I recall Draigo's timeline is as follows..

1) Beats M'Kar as Justicar. Receives a prohphecy that should the two ever fight again, all those who walk with Draigo will die.
2) Time passes, and he is promoted to Grand Master.
3) While fighting alongside the Lord Grand Master against Mortarion, the Lord Grand Master is slain, and Draigo is promoted to Lord Grand Master. His first act as Lord Grand Master is to carve his dpredecessors name into Mortarion's heart.
4) Receives word that M'Kar has returned, and goes to fight im alone.
5) Beats M'Kar, and is sucked into the Warp.
6) Does all his crap in the realm of CHaso.

Vargtass wrote:

pretre wrote:Dreadnight controls 'Synaptic implants give him complete control of the walker's limbs and weapons systems'

Oh my, well why does he have steering sticks then?

Aethetics and backup system in case he needs them?

Ok, so why is he Supreme Grand Master of the Grey Knights? As someone said earlier, I hope he has good reception in the Warp, otherwise he might have a problem doing his job.

It's an honorary title. Read my above post where I give the timeline.

A good point and a thing that would fit well in the setting, would GW actually thought of it themselves.

Who says they didn't? Do they have to spell out every character for you?

This is actually the most Mary Sue of all. Do tell me, did he play Seeker in the Gryffindor team as well?

Being really old and eternally doomed to fail is Mary Sue? Umm. You might want to check your definitions.

Nothing to say here, I am just a knee jerk who hates thing because it gets me post counts after all... <,<

You did say you started this thread to Troll, didn't you?

puma713 wrote:

Kanluwen wrote:Or it could have been that he was promoted to Grandmaster before he was banished, in a later battle, to the Warp by M'Kar.

Maybe so, but the blurb on the website (I know, nothing to go by, but all I have right now, at work), is that he fought M'kar while a lowly battle brother, then was banished and rose to the ranks of Grand Master.

Kaldor Draigo is the Supreme Grand Master of the Grey Knights and a warrior beyond reckoning. As a lowly Battle-Brother he banished the Daemon Prince M'kar the Reborn and he has risen steadily through the ranks to become the Grand Master of the most secretive Chapter of Space Marines. Yet ever since his battle with M'kar, Draigo has been cursed to a life within the Warp, doomed to walk within the Realm of Chaos. To remain pure when constantly assailed by Chaos shows such fortitude and personal strength that it is beyond measure. But while Draigo lives, he will prevail and one day, he will return.

Like Pretre said though, there's two parts that really flesh out the story.

They really should have put that he fought the same Daemon at least twice

Yeah, Web Intern #47 deserves a spanking.

A Mary Sue can have flaws, but those flaws often do nothing to detract from the character's Sueness. e.g. Bella Swan is often considered a Mary Sue, and she has the flaw of 'clumsiness'. However, this flaw is easily overlooked... It's the same with Draigo (I am so getting flamed for saying that), he is really old and doomed to fail, but that doesn't detract from his over the topness. Hell, even though he's doomed to fail, he seems to be doing prwetty well for himself, doesn't he?

To be Fair, M'kar is kind of a big deal in 40k fluff too. He's always being a pita.

Tigurius fought him, Calgar fought him, Mephiston fought him, Hive Fleet Leviathan fought him and spoiler for Horus Heresy series.

ChrisWWII wrote:A Mary Sue can have flaws, but those flaws often do nothing to detract from the character's Sueness. e.g. Bella Swan is often considered a Mary Sue, and she has the flaw of 'clumsiness'. However, this flaw is easily overlooked... It's the same with Draigo (I am so getting flamed for saying that), he is really old and doomed to fail, but that doesn't detract from his over the topness. Hell, even though he's doomed to fail, he seems to be doing prwetty well for himself, doesn't he?

Yes, you will get 'flamed' for that.

A 'Mary Sue' exhibits all the traits that the author wants and they always find a deus ex machina to get out of their current situation.

The fact that Draigo hasn't escaped the Warp alone makes him not a Mary Sue

BuFFo wrote:Rumors have it that Black Templars will have a Marine riding a Rhino, C.S. Goto style. This new model will have 5 wounds and isn't a vehicle anymore.

Oh man, that's awesome. And it can run over people with its multilaser too.

ChrisWWII wrote:A Mary Sue can have flaws, but those flaws often do nothing to detract from the character's Sueness. e.g. Bella Swan is often considered a Mary Sue, and she has the flaw of 'clumsiness'. However, this flaw is easily overlooked... It's the same with Draigo (I am so getting flamed for saying that), he is really old and doomed to fail, but that doesn't detract from his over the topness. Hell, even though he's doomed to fail, he seems to be doing prwetty well for himself, doesn't he?

Not really. He had some initial successes, all with the help of others, and his final fight in the real world he almost loses and is banished to the warp. There he 'does pretty well' except for that whole it is all meaningless part. His biggest success since being banished was defeating a daemonic prophet in realspace with the help of other GKs. Woopie.

pretre wrote:You did say you started this thread to Troll, didn't you?

No, I said my inner troll inspired the title to draw attention and start discussions, something that carried well it would seem, way to take my statement out of context. And if you reread that Draigo-fluff you'll probably be surprised how fan-fiction the whole thing sounds now that we have talked about it. Now that we have heated up, I extend my hand with a solemn wish that we can return to civilized conversation.

And yes, that is my apology by the way, I am nerd enough to admit when I have let too much emotion say too many words.

Fair enough. I have been reading the Draigo fluff. All the quotes I have posted are from the Draigo fluff in the book.

I've been posting in the other thread:
http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/352292.page

with quoted analysis and replies to specific Draigo misconceptions, just as I have been here. You can check it out, if you care to.

All I can say is that Draigo and the DreadKnight better not be initiative 7...

In other news, I am somewhat annoyed about all the special rules that Grey Knights get against Demons...

I mean it seems like they are designed to obsolete the entire Demon Codex, and severely hinder the chaos space marine codex. If you wanted epic Grey Knight v Chaos battles this is slowed. Its the opposite of epic when its a one sided lol fest!

These days I feel like my banshees are my only unit that can reliably go first...

pretre wrote:Fair enough. I have been reading the Draigo fluff. All the quotes I have posted are from the Draigo fluff in the book.

I've been posting in the other thread:
http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/352292.page

with quoted analysis and replies to specific Draigo misconceptions, just as I have been here. You can check it out, if you care to.

Even so, the GK have a Lord Grand Master that is asleep (away) at the helm?

And?

The Space Wolves have an entire Company missing, and the Imperial Fists let a guy who had been lost in the Warp for a thousand years become Captain of the First Company.

This is 40k we're talking about. 'Going walkabout' in the Warp isn't entirely unheard of, and it's likely that the position is filled by someone else--he just retains the title as an honoriffic.

Because simply every thread on Dakka must be about the Dreadknight now...

When I read it, I thought that Mortarion's heart was in some kind of vault under the grey knights fortress and that draigo went and carved his predecessors name on it. However, I suppose if mortarion had just killed the guy then it would be pretty easy to find him, as Draigo was probably there when it happened.

Also, if the dreadknight is T6 I will not be scared of it, T7 and I will. Why? Lasguns can hurt T6.

Trickstick wrote:When I read it, I thought that Mortarion's heart was in some kind of vault under the grey knights fortress and that draigo went and carved his predecessors name on it.

Maybe it's a giant tree on Terra. And Draigo went and carved his name and the name of his predecessor in a little heart with an arrow through it. Then a Inquisitorial Park Ranger found out about it and had him banished to the warp.

So you are telling me that Draigo is Yogi bear?

"I'm smarter than the average knight!"

purplefood wrote:

UberhAxTHC wrote:Also, a bad idea. I want Draigo dead at the hands of Mortarion himself. Now. And if we're getting characters so OTT now, why don't we have primarchs as playable SC now? I've seen so many custom built models for Fulgrim...it would be so nice to field him. XD

Whoops, scratch that. Just looked him up, and apparently Fulgrim is sealed inside of a painting of himself...no fun taking a painting to war, now is it? Although that does seem awfully Slaanesh like to do so...

OTT fluff not OTT rules.
BA have Space Jesus and Totally-not-Daemon
SW have pretty much all their characters with odd fluff.
Guard have Arnie and Marbo with a sprinkle of that strangest of internet memes.
Chaos get Kharn and Scooby-doo.
SM have Mac and his fists of fury.
Etc etc across the armies.
This is just the fluff remember so no shouting at me 'cos so and so is rubbish or underpowered.

Who the hell is Scooby-Doo out of the CSM SC?

UberhAxTHC wrote:

purplefood wrote:

UberhAxTHC wrote:Also, a bad idea. I want Draigo dead at the hands of Mortarion himself. Now. And if we're getting characters so OTT now, why don't we have primarchs as playable SC now? I've seen so many custom built models for Fulgrim...it would be so nice to field him. XD

Whoops, scratch that. Just looked him up, and apparently Fulgrim is sealed inside of a painting of himself...no fun taking a painting to war, now is it? Although that does seem awfully Slaanesh like to do so...

OTT fluff not OTT rules.
BA have Space Jesus and Totally-not-Daemon
SW have pretty much all their characters with odd fluff.
Guard have Arnie and Marbo with a sprinkle of that strangest of internet memes.
Chaos get Kharn and Scooby-doo.
SM have Mac and his fists of fury.
Etc etc across the armies.
This is just the fluff remember so no shouting at me 'cos so and so is rubbish or underpowered.

Who the hell is Scooby-Doo out of the CSM SC?

Abbadabadoobadon.

Platuan4th wrote:

Abbadabadoobadon.

That made me lol at work.

Platuan4th wrote:

UberhAxTHC wrote:

purplefood wrote:

UberhAxTHC wrote:Also, a bad idea. I want Draigo dead at the hands of Mortarion himself. Now. And if we're getting characters so OTT now, why don't we have primarchs as playable SC now? I've seen so many custom built models for Fulgrim...it would be so nice to field him. XD

Whoops, scratch that. Just looked him up, and apparently Fulgrim is sealed inside of a painting of himself...no fun taking a painting to war, now is it? Although that does seem awfully Slaanesh like to do so...

OTT fluff not OTT rules.
BA have Space Jesus and Totally-not-Daemon
SW have pretty much all their characters with odd fluff.
Guard have Arnie and Marbo with a sprinkle of that strangest of internet memes.
Chaos get Kharn and Scooby-doo.
SM have Mac and his fists of fury.
Etc etc across the armies.
This is just the fluff remember so no shouting at me 'cos so and so is rubbish or underpowered.

Who the hell is Scooby-Doo out of the CSM SC?

Abbadabadoobadon.

How?

^ That sounds more like flintstones to me, sir internets

I thought that creed and kell would be more shaggy and scooby, as abaddon would have got away with the 13th black crusade if it wasn't for those meddling kids.

I don't like it. I don't HATE it, but it too silly to be taken as a super powerful knight. It's just silly.
What I do hate is that my precious and beautiful Wraith Lords are a f@$&*!g joke next to him.. Every unique thing in Eldar codex is being overshadowed by something.. SoB or Necrons are going to have a beefed up Seer Council, no argue about that..

Macok wrote:I don't like it. I don't HATE it, but it too silly to be taken as a super powerful knight. It's just silly.
What I do hate is that my precious and beautiful Wraith Lords are a f@$&*!g joke next to him.. Every unique thing in Eldar codex is being overshadowed by something.. SoB or Necrons are going to have a beefed up Seer Council, no argue about that..

Don't worry, the same thing will happen to the Eldar. Then we will have a month of "Swooping hawks break the game!" and "This new avatar model sucks!"

Macok wrote:
What I do hate is that my precious and beautiful Wraith Lords are a f@$&*!g joke next to him..

Yeah, let me cry about how the T8 and therefore immune to 95% of the small arms in the game Wraithlord is a joke next to the T6 4++ model.

Wraithlords are also cheaper, higher base strength and toughness. Different beast from a different edition.

Good thing Eldar don't have anything unique left other than Seer Councils.


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Trickstick wrote:Don't worry, the same thing will happen to the Eldar. Then we will have a month of "Swooping hawks break the game!" and "This new avatar model sucks!"

OMG I heard Swooping Hawks get to drop D3 S10 AP4 Ord templates everytime they come in from reserve!!!

I actually am GLAD that I play Eldar. What I do feel bad for are Vanilla Space Marines and Chaos Space Marines who these new codexes are really just giving the finger to.

All these new terrifying units are coming out, and I just keep telling myself. At least that all these crazy new psychers are eating perils 40% of the time and failing to cast 50%.

Eldar do still have several things going for them. Banshees still go first, and even if the DreadKnight is something stupid like I5, Banshees will be able to knock it down as long as it doesn't get t7.

Fire Dragons are as good as ever, one of the cheapest melta squads in the game.

Really at the end of the day I feel like all this crazy new marine codex creep is really hurting other armies a lot more than its hurting my Elves...

I'm actually worried that when the Elf codex gets re done Warding will get nerfed, and suddenly we'll have to face the brunt of Rune Priests and Mephiston, and whatever crazy psychic stuff the GKs are tossing around like the rest of the peons. Because its not FAIR that the ELDAR can defend themselves from Marine Psychers, they should be forced to eat poster boy psychic powers like the rest of em...

Trickstick wrote:I thought that creed and kell would be more shaggy and scooby, as abaddon would have got away with the 13th black crusade if it wasn't for those meddling kids.

I swear this was on the pretend quotes thread...

I love this and the stormraven. What I don't like is that anyone playing daemons will find an army impossible to beat. Every army should have a chance, even if it's slim, of winning. Daemons will have zero chance!

I was thinking about that though, and it occured to me that Khorne demons can get an upgrade that gives them a 2+ invulnerable save against Force Weapons.

That at least seems to give them an edge against a codex like GK where all their demon killing weapons are also force wepaons? unless I'm missing something of course!

blood for the blood god

Trickstick wrote:I thought that creed and kell would be more shaggy and scooby, as abaddon would have got away with the 13th black crusade if it wasn't for those meddling kids.

So this means wh40k is this some kind of homage for 13 Ghosts of Scooby-Doo?

Only the bloodthirster, skarbrand and skulltaker can. That's only three, and all three are HQ's, so a max of two will have that save. On top of that, who wants to take only khorne?

Shenra wrote:What I don't like is that anyone playing daemons will find an army impossible to beat. Every army should have a chance, even if it's slim, of winning. Daemons will have zero chance!

Umm. Want to back that strong statement up with any sort of proof, analysis or empirical evidence?

Shenra wrote:Only the bloodthirster, skarbrand and skulltaker can. That's only three, and all three are HQ's, so a max of two will have that save. On top of that, who wants to take only khorne?

Also note that 2 of those, due to not being ICs, are very, very easily shot to death by S5 storm bolters as they stand there with their puds hanging out on DS turn.

I'm going to point out that even though its a monstorus Creature, its so huge that there's nowhere to hide it. Like the Tyranid Trygon. Awesome unit, but is very vunerable to concentrated fire. So, honestly, its not a god unit.

And about Draigo being OTT, well, alot of Wh40k units are OTT. I think every faction has 'em. I mean, in the Description, the Swarmlord sounds like he could single-handedly take on the IoM from how "Awesome" they make him sound.

Okay, as a non GK player I think the deradknight is cool. The hammer is rather small and okay there's a "baby harness" (honestly I can't see it) but otherwise its a good model. Here's some extra persepctive: it's said to be about 7" tall. That's the equivalent size of a Lego Bionicle model. Now that is BIG. Besides this, it makes sense to give imperials good walkers. I mean we have Sentinels who have rather flimsy legs that look like they'll snap like twigs, and dreadnoughts who are so stumpy and box-like they look like they've got no knees and would waddle about like a duck on the battlefield. This however, looks the business.

Ok yeah like most people I did take one look and question it's purpose but after reading the description provided on the webpage it kinda makes sense and doesn't. Its a walker that's meant to beat up greater deamons and deamon princes... well what's wrong with a bunch of grey knights doing the same job? *Shrug*

And another thing people. Matt Ward wrote the dex. Did you REALLY expect it to be dead serious and balanaced? C'mon this guy can't do characters properly. He never could and probably won't.

Sorry, what?

Sentinels have "rather flimsy legs"?

Because those legs look pretty damned solid to me.

Pilau Rice wrote:My quibble is that there has never, to my knowledge, been anything like this mentioned for the Grey Knights ever, ever, ever.

That's an odd reason to dislike it... Every codex ever released for 40K has included stuff that hadn't previously been mentioned in the fluff.

insaniak wrote:

Pilau Rice wrote:My quibble is that there has never, to my knowledge, been anything like this mentioned for the Grey Knights ever, ever, ever.

That's an odd reason to dislike it... Every codex ever released for 40K has included stuff that hadn't previously been mentioned in the fluff.

Not so odd. Fear of change is pretty common.

I think it is odd also, no prior mention, but that's outweighed by my desire for new stuff!

There is total precedent for those things ...



Looks pretty similar to the SoB Witchhunters Penitent Engine, only instead of a half-naked and crazy SoB there's an armored Grey Knight at the helm. (it's also a bit more badAzz too)

Yeah, that's a penitent psyker, not an SoB. Thanks for playing.

insaniak wrote:

Pilau Rice wrote:My quibble is that there has never, to my knowledge, been anything like this mentioned for the Grey Knights ever, ever, ever.

That's an odd reason to dislike it... Every codex ever released for 40K has included stuff that hadn't previously been mentioned in the fluff.

Not necessarily true, at least not if we're talking about recently rather than the time from 2nd edition onwards.

Part of what made the Blood Angels so absurd was the addition of the Stormraven when we could have gotten something already established.

Hell, practically the only 'new' thing in the Imperial Guard Codex that wasn't already in the fluff was the Vendetta.

pretre wrote:Yeah, that's a penitent psyker, not an SoB. Thanks for playing.

Actually just a penitent...
Those things would be totally OTT with psykers at the helm/front

Fair enough, I meant heretic, but I misspoke.

purplefood wrote:I like how despite all the rumours and the pictures there are still people who didn't see this coming.

I like the way that, despite all the 5th ed codex releases people didn't see more codex creep, cheese, and uber hard characters coming.

Kanluwen wrote:Not necessarily true, at least not if we're talking about recently rather than the time from 2nd edition onwards.

Can you find a single codex that doesn't include some piece of new fluff?

Try it... you might be surprised.

Hell, practically the only 'new' thing in the Imperial Guard Codex that wasn't already in the fluff was the Vendetta.

The 'only new thing' is still something new...

Banewolf? Devildog?
Marbo?

I didn't play 4th ed. Was Harker or Bastonne in there?

Remember the hoo-hah over LR Squadrons back when they were introduced? Or basilisk squads?
PBS?
Punisher, Eradicator, Executioner? (May have been IA previously...)

insaniak wrote:

Kanluwen wrote:Not necessarily true, at least not if we're talking about recently rather than the time from 2nd edition onwards.

Can you find a single codex that doesn't include some piece of new fluff?

Try it... you might be surprised.

Hell, practically the only 'new' thing in the Imperial Guard Codex that wasn't already in the fluff was the Vendetta.

The 'only new thing' is still something new...

I meant that more as a 'there's never really been anything introduced as huge as the Dreadknight/Stormravens'.

Even so: most of the stuff we saw introduced was at least hinted at beforehand in the novels, etc.


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pretre wrote:Banewolf? Devildog?
Marbo?

I didn't play 4th ed. Was Harker or Bastonne in there?

Remember the hoo-hah over LR Squadrons back when they were introduced? Or basilisk squads?
PBS?
Punisher, Eradicator, Executioner? (May have been IA previously...)

Executioner was not new.
Nor were LR squadrons, Basilisk 'batteries', etc.

The Punisher is new, as is the Eradicator.

Harker's old, Bastonne's new.

Kanluwen wrote:
Even so: most of the stuff we saw introduced was at least hinted at beforehand in the novels, etc.

Tyrannofex/Tervigon/Venomthrope/Pyrovore/etc
Sternguard/Vanguard/Thunderfire Cannons (those might have been in novels)
Cronos/Venom
Thunderwolf Cav
Soulgrinder
Deffkoptas (might be in previous fluff)
Vespid / Skyray

Mr. Burning wrote:

purplefood wrote:I like how despite all the rumours and the pictures there are still people who didn't see this coming.

I like the way that, despite all the 5th ed codex releases people didn't see more codex creep, cheese, and uber hard characters coming.

It's interesting no one ever talks about the non-cheese as well...
No one ever says "Oh well they got this unit and that unit right"
I mean the SW dex, if you only listened to the internet you would only think the codex had WL, TWC, Razorbacks, Long Fangs and Grey Hunters.
So far the internet has told me the GK codex consists of this
Dreadknight
Draigo
PA GK
Termie GK

I wonder if it comes with a master-crafted step-ladder as I can't see how the hell the 'driver' gets in...

I imagine it is mostly like getting into any specialized fighting vehicle, you have assistance getting in.

Ref: Knights and warhorses to jetfighters.

Oh, sorry, you were trying to be witty.

Daedricbob wrote:I wonder if it comes with a master-crafted step-ladder as I can't see how the hell the 'driver' gets in...

have you not seen? it transforms into a truck and makes the noise from transformers

purplefood wrote:It's interesting no one ever talks about the non-cheese as well...
No one ever says "Oh well they got this unit and that unit right"
I mean the SW dex, if you only listened to the internet you would only think the codex had WL, TWC, Razorbacks, Long Fangs and Grey Hunters.

It's not interesting, its the internets
But that's the very good thing about having nice and friendly gaming community. Not bent on tournament game play only. You really do see other units than ones in "40K Army Lists"..

purplefood wrote:

Mr. Burning wrote:

purplefood wrote:I like how despite all the rumours and the pictures there are still people who didn't see this coming.

I like the way that, despite all the 5th ed codex releases people didn't see more codex creep, cheese, and uber hard characters coming.

It's interesting no one ever talks about the non-cheese as well...
No one ever says "Oh well they got this unit and that unit right"
I mean the SW dex, if you only listened to the internet you would only think the codex had WL, TWC, Razorbacks, Long Fangs and Grey Hunters.
So far the internet has told me the GK codex consists of this
Dreadknight
Draigo
PA GK
Termie GK

This is exactly what I thought too.

DID YOU KNOW: This book has Venerable Dreads? Or that it has Death Cult Assassins?

The dreadknight and Draigo has eclipsed the normal stuff so much that it's dangerous to look directly at the codex without sunglasses.

I honestly didn't know they still had dreads...
I am unsmiley about the lack of Inq. forces as well...

At least I assume they do as the GW site has them in the GK elite section and have one painted up in GK colours.

They have Inq Forces. Henchman entries makes them.

purplefood wrote:...I am unsmiley about the lack of Inq. forces as well...

OH REALLY? As in NONE? I hadnt heard that either I was hoping for crazy retinues and or conscripted entries form the IG dex! Boy, not in the loop on this one.

Augustus wrote:

purplefood wrote:...I am unsmiley about the lack of Inq. forces as well...

OH REALLY? As in NONE? I hadnt heard that either I was hoping for crazy retinues and or conscripted entries form the IG dex! Boy, not in the loop on this one.

They have some but it's turned from Inq. with added GK to GK with added Inq.

Inquisitors can make/get far more things than they could in the previous books.

Sigh. This is how nerd rage rumors start.

Judging from the playtest codex, Inquisitors can pack an unholy amount of weapons.

"One for every occasion!"

Umm. Go back and count the entries in C: DH. It was more GK in it then, as well (if you count DCA, Daemonhosts and such as one entry since they are Henchman and still game now the divide is even greater).

pretre wrote:Inquisitors can make/get far more things than they could in the previous books.

Sigh. This is how nerd rage rumors start.

I only said lack of... not complete disapearance of...
At any rate they could have made the codex so much cooler.
They could have done it like they did the DE but with less spiky bits and sadists.

pretre wrote:

Kanluwen wrote:
Even so: most of the stuff we saw introduced was at least hinted at beforehand in the novels, etc.

Tyrannofex/Tervigon/Venomthrope/Pyrovore/etc
Sternguard/Vanguard/Thunderfire Cannons (those might have been in novels)
Cronos/Venom
Thunderwolf Cav
Soulgrinder
Deffkoptas (might be in previous fluff)
Vespid / Skyray

Venom is by no feat of the imagination a 'new' item. It's old, as in Index Astartes and Harlequin armies old. The Cronos is new, but honestly: Dark Eldar needed a ton of work, period, to be fleshed out to an acceptable level.

Soulgrinder is a bit forgivable, since it's not really a 'new' piece but rather a 'character' version of something that already existed.

Vespids were new.

Skyrays were not. Nor were Piranhas, or even Tetras(which weren't added into the codex).

Deffkoptas weren't new.

Sternguard/Vanguard also weren't really "new", they were just "specialized" if that makes sense. Previously, in fluff, veterans were just called 'veterans'. Vanguard and Sternguard just kind of clarify what they ended up specializing in after their veterancy.

Of the Tyranids, I think the only thing that I hadn't heard of in some form or another in fluff was the Tervigon/Tyrannofex. Trygon was old(published in IA4), Venomthrope and Pyrovore had been kinda/sorta described before but never really given names.

Thunderwolves by no means were 'new'. But honestly, I would have been more surprised to find out they weren't ridden by the Space Wolves at some point.

I mean really. A wolf that can be as big as a freaking APC, and some Space Wolf hasn't gotten blackout drunk off Fenrisian Ale and said "Hey, you lot...watch this!".

Kanluwen wrote:
The Cronos is new, but honestly: Dark Eldar needed a ton of work, period, to be fleshed out to an acceptable level.
Vespids were new.
Of the Tyranids, I think the only thing that I hadn't heard of in some form or another in fluff was the Tervigon/Tyrannofex.

So you're saying you agree and there were new things added recently that didn't previously exist in the fluff other than the DK/SR?

Thunderwolves by no means were 'new'. But honestly, I would have been more surprised to find out they weren't ridden by the Space Wolves at some point. I mean really. A wolf that can be as big as a freaking APC, and some Space Wolf hasn't gotten blackout drunk off Fenrisian Ale and said "Hey, you lot...watch this!".

Where were TW mentioned previously? Not fenrisian wolves, but Thunderwolves.

I mean, I love TWC, both as an idea and as a rule, but it was a pretty big leap.

pretre wrote:

Kanluwen wrote:
The Cronos is new, but honestly: Dark Eldar needed a ton of work, period, to be fleshed out to an acceptable level.
Vespids were new.
Of the Tyranids, I think the only thing that I hadn't heard of in some form or another in fluff was the Tervigon/Tyrannofex.

So you're saying you agree and there were new things added recently that didn't previously exist in the fluff other than the DK/SR?

This is where you are ->. Here's my point-------------------------------------------->.

You missed it by a mile, Pretre. Vespids, Cronos, Tervigons, and Tyrannofexes are acceptable.
Vespids because, one, the Tau never had a real 'set' list of xenos allies that they employed. It's feasible to assume that the Vespid just hadn't made it to widespread use, since the Tau Empire Codex actually was a progression of the timeline(of sorts).
Tervigons and Tyrannofexes are acceptable because at the very least, the Tervigon(or something like it--but unnamed) had existed previously. Plus again: Tyranids are an adaptable race, and the book did present a progression of sorts.
The Cronos is acceptable because as mentioned--The Dark Eldar needed alot of work.
Grey Knights, on the other hand, were pretty damned well fleshed out. They didn't need the Dreadknight, since their Terminators and Dreadnoughts served that role.

Thunderwolves by no means were 'new'. But honestly, I would have been more surprised to find out they weren't ridden by the Space Wolves at some point. I mean really. A wolf that can be as big as a freaking APC, and some Space Wolf hasn't gotten blackout drunk off Fenrisian Ale and said "Hey, you lot...watch this!".

Where were TW mentioned previously? Not fenrisian wolves, but Thunderwolves.
I mean, I love TWC, both as an idea and as a rule, but it was a pretty big leap.

Off the top of my head, I do remember them from Bill King's series regarding Ragnar. It was a small mention, but it was something along the lines of him describing a spear tipped with a Thunderwolf canine for the spearhead carried by a tribe's shaman, rather than the iron of most spears.

That's impossible.
The wolves of Fenris live on Asaheim not the islands.

Annnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnd?

Not all the tribes live on the islands. Nor are they restricted year round to the islands.

Kanluwen wrote:This is where you are ->. Here's my point-------------------------------------------->.

You missed it by a mile, Pretre. Vespids, Cronos, Tervigons, and Tyrannofexes are acceptable.
Vespids because, one, the Tau never had a real 'set' list of xenos allies that they employed. It's feasible to assume that the Vespid just hadn't made it to widespread use, since the Tau Empire Codex actually was a progression of the timeline(of sorts).
Tervigons and Tyrannofexes are acceptable because at the very least, the Tervigon(or something like it--but unnamed) had existed previously. Plus again: Tyranids are an adaptable race, and the book did present a progression of sorts.
The Cronos is acceptable because as mentioned--The Dark Eldar needed alot of work.
Grey Knights, on the other hand, were pretty damned well fleshed out. They didn't need the Dreadknight, since their Terminators and Dreadnoughts served that role.

No, I get your point. You have arbitrarily decided what is acceptable, well fleshed out, not well fleshed out, etc. New things happen. One could say that many armies were well fleshed out when they came out in 2nd edition, but things have always been added. You just happen not to like one of them, so have tried to make it that it is a huge departure from given fluff, blah blah blah. It's not. GW makes crap up and adds it to codexes. It has been going on since the game started. Don't make it more than it is.

Off the top of my head, I do remember them from Bill King's series regarding Ragnar. It was a small mention, but it was something along the lines of him describing a spear tipped with a Thunderwolf canine for the spearhead carried by a tribe's shaman, rather than the iron of most spears.

Just checked. The combination of words 'Thunderwolf' or 'Thunder wolf' do not appear in any of the first three books of Bill King's series. Good try though.

Kanluwen wrote:Trygon was old(published in IA4), Venomthrope and Pyrovore had been kinda/sorta described before but never really given names.

Ok Kan, now you're just reaching. All of the things Pretre mentioned (aside from a few like Skyrays and Deff Koptaz) were pulled out of thin air. They are new units. Please don't pretend that just becuase you don't like the Dreadknight that it is somehow different to these out-of-nowhere units that appeared in a Codex because GW needed something new to sell (which in some cases, like the Marine Codex, was completely justified and, IMO, necessary).

Having new units isn't a bad thing - it just falls apart when the new units are really terrible concepts (Thunder Wolves) or when decent concepts are realised badly (Chibi-Hawk, Dreadknight).

pretre wrote:

Kanluwen wrote:This is where you are ->. Here's my point-------------------------------------------->.

You missed it by a mile, Pretre. Vespids, Cronos, Tervigons, and Tyrannofexes are acceptable.
Vespids because, one, the Tau never had a real 'set' list of xenos allies that they employed. It's feasible to assume that the Vespid just hadn't made it to widespread use, since the Tau Empire Codex actually was a progression of the timeline(of sorts).
Tervigons and Tyrannofexes are acceptable because at the very least, the Tervigon(or something like it--but unnamed) had existed previously. Plus again: Tyranids are an adaptable race, and the book did present a progression of sorts.
The Cronos is acceptable because as mentioned--The Dark Eldar needed alot of work.
Grey Knights, on the other hand, were pretty damned well fleshed out. They didn't need the Dreadknight, since their Terminators and Dreadnoughts served that role.

No, I get your point. You have arbitrarily decided what is acceptable, well fleshed out, not well fleshed out, etc. New things happen. One could say that many armies were well fleshed out when they came out in 2nd edition, but things have always been added. You just happen not to like one of them, so have tried to make it that it is a huge departure from given fluff, blah blah blah. It's not. GW makes crap up and adds it to codexes. It has been going on since the game started. Don't make it more than it is.

Except things haven't really "always been added".

Where's the new units for Eldar? How about for the Imperial Guard before this last edition? If anything, 3rd edition Guard lost options when it went to 4th. Or hey, how about the Dark Angels?

Daemonhunters(and by extension the Grey Knights) were well fleshed out.
Dark Eldar, by contrast, were a holdover from a time where they really were just still 'spiky Eldar'.
The same can be said of Necrons, who although being fairly well-explored, really need an overhaul just because some of the pieces about them just never really 'fit' well.

Tyranids and Tau, however, are fleshed out. The problem is?
Part of that established background for them...is that they're constantly evolving and adding on to their current structure.

I will give you that yes, they do make additions. But more often than not: those additions are well-thought out and well-structured, not to mention introduced through outside sources like Forge World and the Black Library.

This is one of those instances where they should have done it that way.

Off the top of my head, I do remember them from Bill King's series regarding Ragnar. It was a small mention, but it was something along the lines of him describing a spear tipped with a Thunderwolf canine for the spearhead carried by a tribe's shaman, rather than the iron of most spears.

Just checked. The combination of words 'Thunderwolf' or 'Thunder wolf' do not appear in any of the first three books of Bill King's series. Good try though.

Then I may be recalling a short story or any number of things. He didn't just write books y'know

I will give you that yes, they do make additions. But more often than not: those additions are well-thought out and well-structured, not to mention introduced through outside sources like Forge World and the Black Library.

This is one of those instances where they should have done it that way.

Maybe they should have, but it is not unprecedented. I think that having new things that weren't in the fluff is okay as long as they make sense. The DK and SR make sense for me.

GKs were hardly fleshed out. In the last codex they literally had two squads and just shifted the unit composition within said squads to give you "variations". I for one welcome the new amount of stuff. The Dreadknight, though, I do admit the rules are an asspull (although so was the Storm Raven, and the Thunderwolves, and space jesus, and JotWW, and, oh my i've gone crosseyed).

Also, the "predecessor" to the Tervigon was the Norn Queen. The thing, you know, was too huge to even leave the hive ship? Aside from both being baby cannons (which the Biovore does well too) there's little in common with both. The Tyrannofex is just barely acceptable, given that Gunfexes were rather popular.

Also, as far as Thunderwolves go, Space Wolves always had Fenrisian Wolves. While a cool and obvious idea for them to actually ride on the wolves, it's still an asspull.

MechaEmperor7000 wrote:GKs were hardly fleshed out. In the last codex they literally had two squads and just shifted the unit composition within said squads to give you "variations". I for one welcome the new amount of stuff. The Dreadknight, though, I do admit the rules are an asspull (although so was the Storm Raven, and the Thunderwolves, and space jesus, and JotWW, and, oh my i've gone crosseyed).

"Two squads and just shifted the unit composition within said squads" does not necessarily mean "hardly fleshed out".

Or would you call the Sisters of Battle "hardly fleshed out", even though their forces are the exact same thing?

And yes: I'm purposely discounting the Ecclesiarchal forces because they're not technically "Sisters of Battle".

Also, the "predecessor" to the Tervigon was the Norn Queen. The thing, you know, was too huge to even leave the hive ship? Aside from both being baby cannons (which the Biovore does well too) there's little in common with both. The Tyrannofex is just barely acceptable, given that Gunfexes were rather popular.

There was actually something else as well. The Norn Queen is the 'overall' breeder, but there was mention in the Last Chancers novels of something that walked around spawning Gaunts.

The Tyrannofex is more acceptable when you think of it as a 'baby' Hierophant mixed with a Barbed Hierodule.

Also, as far as Thunderwolves go, Space Wolves always had Fenrisian Wolves. While a cool and obvious idea for them to actually ride on the wolves, it's still an asspull.

I think with Thunderwolves, at least in my opinion, there was wiggle room and they just named something to differentiate it from the 'generic' version.

Because I am seriously remembering that Fenrisian Wolves have previously been mentioned as 'rarely getting to be the size of Rhino APCs'. That may be the case here, where they just opted to make those rarities a full fledged separate species.

Kanluwen wrote:Where's the new units for Eldar? How about for the Imperial Guard before this last edition? If anything, 3rd edition Guard lost options when it went to 4th. Or hey, how about the Dark Angels?

Ok now you're really reaching. These books you're talking about are very old in comparison to the new crop, and this 'new units out of nowhere' started with the Marine Codex at the start of 5th, so looking at Codices before then is pointless (and a stretch - or a reach). This is about the economics of releasing new models, recutting old sprues, and what you base new releases around. If there is enough genuine 'new' stuff you can make for existing unit types then there's no reason to invent new things.

The Dark Angels didn't get any new units because they completely new models/upgrades to represent regular DA's and the Ravenwing, plus the plastic Dev Box was the big Marine release from that time (IIRC). The Eldar didn't get new units (aside from Harlis, but they're not new) because they got enough of their range re-done to not require it (redone Reapers, Scorps, Bansheers, Fire Dragons, new Hari models, plastic Dire Avengers, new Farseers, new War Walker, new Wraithlord). Chaos got plastic Termies, Termy Lord and Possessed - they were the centre of that release - plus a re-cut CSM sprue, some special Chars, and the Spawn. No need for much new there. Orks? There were so many gaps in the Ork line that the need for new units wasn't there as they still hadn't finished making the old ones from the previous Codex, but still we got a replacement Trukk and eventually even new Dreadz/Kanz. Who needs new units when you can redesign very old models and make them fit the current aesthetic? Daemons were a completely new force, a bit like Necrons and Tau the first time around, so aren't really applicable for this discussion.

But the Marines on the hand had been painted into a corner. What could be done with them? Well, re-cutting the Land Speeder and Land Raider Crusader to remove the remaining hybrid kits from the range was a start, and they added the Redeemer, but as I've said on many occasions you cannot base a new Codex release around re-cuts of existing models unless that model is very old, and the Tactical Squad (and by extension the Commander, Command Squad and Assault Squad) was only re-done for 4th, so it's not old enough yet. So there has to be something new, and a Drop Pod isn’t the most exciting thing in the world This is why the Vanguard, Sternguard and Thunderfire Cannon were retconned into the fluff. Saying that Van/Sternguard had always been there just not fleshed out is a cop-out - they are new units. They never existed before, their rules and fluff are all new, and while there's nothing wrong with that, it is an example of new units being added.

Guard? Well, you can’t base a release around a plastic version of a Command Squad and a re-cut Sentinel, so we’ll take the Valk and make that common place. The Guard release was centred around that. But even then they added a stack of new tanks (or took FW versions and added them in).

Space Wolves? Not a huge need for new models because, like with the Dark Angels, the release is centred around a new general Space Wolf kit (appropriate given the age of the original Space Wolf upgrade frame). There are a few new units (Lone Wolves, Thunderwolf Derp-ery), but it’s not like the Marines where new stuff needed to be added because there was enough ‘new’ stuff with the upgrades to base the release around.

Tyranids? Wow! New units galore. They were re-cutting the Gaunts, but again, can’t do a release based around re-cut sprues, much less Gaunts. The Hive Tyrant had already been re-done last time, so doing it in plastic was a bit soon. Already done the Carnifex. They could have re-done the Warriors, but, again, can’t base a release around re-cuts, so we’ve got to add something new! Cheapest way to add something new is to do it in metal – Pyrovores, Hive Guard, Venomthrope – but we’ll keep going and throw in three big beasties. We’ll do the Trygon now as the design already exists, and get the Venomthrope/Tyrannofex done later. These are all new, because they can’t just re-do the same models over and over again.

Blood Angels? Ok, can’t really make the whole release revolve around plastic Death Company, and all the other Marine models already exist? What’s GW to do? Ah! Sanguinary Guard – aka the Veteran Veteran Assault Squad. But we need something big... re-done Dread won’t be enough... squashed Thunderhawk! Along comes the Storm Raven. A new unit.

We’ll see it with the Tau when they come along. We might see it with the Necrons (but they might be like the Eldar were in 4th and have enough stuff that needs updating into plastic that they might not need too many new units). Even the Grey Knights had a bit of it, but that’s like the Space Wolves and leveraging the modular nature of the existing kits to create a bunch of new units (or re-imagined units).

This is the way things work now. In some cases its necessary (Marines and even, arguably, the Tyranids). Sometimes it’s not. But please stop trying to place the Dreadknight above every other ‘new’ unit like it’s some sort of drastic departure from what GW has been doing with every Codex since 5th Ed Marines.

Kanluwen wrote:

MechaEmperor7000 wrote:GKs were hardly fleshed out. In the last codex they literally had two squads and just shifted the unit composition within said squads to give you "variations". I for one welcome the new amount of stuff. The Dreadknight, though, I do admit the rules are an asspull (although so was the Storm Raven, and the Thunderwolves, and space jesus, and JotWW, and, oh my i've gone crosseyed).

"Two squads and just shifted the unit composition within said squads" does not necessarily mean "hardly fleshed out".

Or would you call the Sisters of Battle "hardly fleshed out", even though their forces are the exact same thing?

And yes: I'm purposely discounting the Ecclesiarchal forces because they're not technically "Sisters of Battle".

Also, the "predecessor" to the Tervigon was the Norn Queen. The thing, you know, was too huge to even leave the hive ship? Aside from both being baby cannons (which the Biovore does well too) there's little in common with both. The Tyrannofex is just barely acceptable, given that Gunfexes were rather popular.

There was actually something else as well. The Norn Queen is the 'overall' breeder, but there was mention in the Last Chancers novels of something that walked around spawning Gaunts.

The Tyrannofex is more acceptable when you think of it as a 'baby' Hierophant mixed with a Barbed Hierodule.

Also, as far as Thunderwolves go, Space Wolves always had Fenrisian Wolves. While a cool and obvious idea for them to actually ride on the wolves, it's still an asspull.

I think with Thunderwolves, at least in my opinion, there was wiggle room and they just named something to differentiate it from the 'generic' version.

Because I am seriously remembering that Fenrisian Wolves have previously been mentioned as 'rarely getting to be the size of Rhino APCs'. That may be the case here, where they just opted to make those rarities a full fledged separate species.

Fenrisian Wolves were mentioned to be huge, but I dont remember any being called "Rhino APC" huge. The Tyrannofex I see as a necessity in Nids lists, since it and the Trygon basically took on the range and close combat roles (respectively) of the Carnifex, who's points were jacked up but got nerfed in the process too.

As for sisters of battle, In addition to the Heroine, Celestian and normal SoB squads (and by extension Retributor and Dominion Squads) they also had Sisters Repentia and Seraphim Squads (which actually had their basic equipment being different than their parent SoB squad). They also had two tanks unique to them, the Immolator and Exorcist. Their special Character was also different in that it wasnt just a "special" version of any normal unit you could take, but was unique (especially her resurrection rule and her wings). The Grey Knights literally only had PAGKs and TAGKs, with the odd dread or so (but personally they weren't that different from normal Space Marine Dreads). Hardly the exact same thing, and the Sister's force felt way more fleshed out than one or two units shoehorned into roles because the writers couldnt think of anything.

We'll have to agree to disagree overall, but a few points:

The Immolator wasn't really "unique" before the Witchhunters book. It's essentially the same line of thinking that led to the Razorback--except they used a Repressor as the base. The Exorcist, previous to its "giant honking organ" incarnation was the same thing--except with rocket launchers.

The Seraphim, frankly, are the same thing as a 'normal' SoB squad if you're going to say that the 'Teleport Attack' squads were the same as the standard ones just because it was the base to work from. The only difference the Seraphim had was weapons and a jetpack, but that's a minor thing. They're still Sisters of Battle, but with jetpacks and twin pistols.

Repentia were new in the Witchhunters book from what I recall though.

The Saint was 'meh'. She's still a Sister of Battle, just with some futzy rules when you get down to it.

I'll also note that she fits the theme of the army.

The Grey Knights, prior to the Daemonhunters book, pretty much were just Terminator armored guys who dressed in grey and had polearms with guns in them.

During 2nd Ed (and Space Hulk) that's what Grey Knights were. The first Grey Knight list didn't even have Terminators.

MechaEmperor7000 wrote:GKs were hardly fleshed out. In the last codex they literally had two squads and just shifted the unit composition within said squads to give you "variations".

And before that, Grey Knights all wore Terminator Armour. So pretty much the entire codex was just as much 'pulled out of thin air' as the Dreadknight in this one

The only problem I have with the dex honestly is they shoved everything Inquisition related into one Squad; and the Inquisitors themselves.

insaniak wrote:And before that, Grey Knights all wore Terminator Armour. So pretty much the entire codex was just as much 'pulled out of thin air' as the Dreadknight in this one

And, as I just said, before that none of the Grey Knights wore Terminator Armour.

I think the points to take from this are:

1. The Dreadknight has been pulled out of thin air and not everyone is happy with that.
2. The more egregious affront to the Grey Knights was their Jervisification into just another Marine Chapter (WS4, ATSKNF, Combat Squads).
3. Matt Ward can't write fluff.
4. I was right about Inquisitorial armies being invalidated.

I think it's funny that you criticize Matt Ward's 'righting'

If the GK's get a mech like this...does anyone want to imagine what the next Tau codex will hold?!

Retribution wrote:If the GK's get a mech like this...does anyone want to imagine what the next Tau codex will hold?!

Ah, but you see. Tau are xenos, so they will get a reasonable well balanced codex, as opposed to the posterboys.

Kanluwen wrote:Annnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnd?

Not all the tribes live on the islands. Nor are they restricted year round to the islands.

They kind of are...
None of them live on Asaheim at any rate, in the very same books it mentions how Russ forbade that anyoe be allowed to live there.
But, this is geting OT.

Kanluwen wrote:I think it's funny that you criticize Matt Ward's 'righting'

I think it's amusing that you're so anti-Dreadknight yet can't see the woods for the trees and realise how many other Codices have had 'new' units inserted out of no where into the fluff as if they were always there.

Kanluwen wrote:We'll have to agree to disagree overall, but a few points:

The Immolator wasn't really "unique" before the Witchhunters book. It's essentially the same line of thinking that led to the Razorback--except they used a Repressor as the base. The Exorcist, previous to its "giant honking organ" incarnation was the same thing--except with rocket launchers.

The Seraphim, frankly, are the same thing as a 'normal' SoB squad if you're going to say that the 'Teleport Attack' squads were the same as the standard ones just because it was the base to work from. The only difference the Seraphim had was weapons and a jetpack, but that's a minor thing. They're still Sisters of Battle, but with jetpacks and twin pistols.

Repentia were new in the Witchhunters book from what I recall though.

The Saint was 'meh'. She's still a Sister of Battle, just with some futzy rules when you get down to it.

I'll also note that she fits the theme of the army.

The Grey Knights, prior to the Daemonhunters book, pretty much were just Terminator armored guys who dressed in grey and had polearms with guns in them.

So these minor differences are just as insignificant as what differentiates you from just another "hater"?

In all seriousness though. Repentia are Sisters of Battle, and are quite different from any comparable "Space Marine" squad at the time (even now too, as I cant imagine a SM squad with a low armor save charging in with Powerfists) and the other squads were at least variations. The Grey Knight Teleport squad was literally a normal PAGK squad that was taken as a FA choice and given Deepstrike. They werent even given their own entry, just a box mentioning it was an option. Sisters might have not been original, but at least they had variety and were decently "fleshed out". Seraphims were also different in that they had two pistols and used it in a different and awesome way, something only Creed ever did. Repentia in particular really fleshed out the sisters as a sort of religious army, you hear about the punishments and stuff happening, but the Sisters actually had a unit that showed this.

Kanluwen wrote:...do make additions. But more often than not: those additions are well-thought out and well-structured...

So well thought out they don't even make miniatures for them?
I don't think they (new units) are usually well thought out at all, especially when they are high powered units. At least GK Voltron here got a model (before the 11 units in the Tyranid codex who still need one...).

H.B.M.C. wrote:

Kanluwen wrote:I think it's funny that you criticize Matt Ward's 'righting'

I think it's amusing that you're so anti-Dreadknight yet can't see the woods for the trees and realise how many other Codices have had 'new' units inserted out of no where into the fluff as if they were always there.

You'll notice I actually clarified my position. I do know that there are 'new' units inserted out of nowhere into the background, but many of them have been introduced in various ways previously or with some kind of caveat.
I mean, we're not seeing the Thunderfire Cannon being what killed Horus. When that kind of thing happens, that's what irks me.

I just think that the Dreadknight could have been done better in two different ways:
1)Execution
2)Introduction.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Augustus wrote:

Kanluwen wrote:...do make additions. But more often than not: those additions are well-thought out and well-structured...

So well thought out they don't even make miniatures for them?
I don't think they (new units) are usually well thought out at all, especially when they are high powered units. At least GK Voltron here got a model (before the 11 units in the Tyranid codex who still need one...).

I really can't think of too many "high powered units" that irked me in terms of how they were added in.

Hell, I'm not that bothered by the Stormraven. Why? Because, as it stands right now, it's "limited use".

When it's shoehorned in to the Codex: Space Marines, then yeah. I'll be irked.

ChrisWWII wrote:

Retribution wrote:If the GK's get a mech like this...does anyone want to imagine what the next Tau codex will hold?!

Ah, but you see. Tau are xenos, so they will get a reasonable well balanced codex, as opposed to the posterboys.

Well crap :(

Kanluwen wrote:
Hell, I'm not that bothered by the Stormraven. Why? Because, as it stands right now, it's "limited use".

When it's shoehorned in to the Codex: Space Marines, then yeah. I'll be irked.

I think I will sig this and call you on it when 6th ed rolls around

(yes I am willing to wait that long)

4. I was right about Inquisitorial armies being invalidated.

How are they? we still have Coteaz right?

One thing to all the Dreadknight Haters

Mr Hyena wrote:How are they? we still have Coteaz right?

Well aside from the fact that they've taken every single Inquisitorial thing and squished them into a single unit, we still need two GK units to fill compulsory troops requirements.

H.B.M.C. wrote:

Mr Hyena wrote:How are they? we still have Coteaz right?

Well aside from the fact that they've taken every single Inquisitorial thing and squished them into a single unit, we still need two GK units to fill compulsory troops requirements.

Let's not do this. This is why the first N&R thread was locked.

Cerebrium wrote:

H.B.M.C. wrote:

Mr Hyena wrote:How are they? we still have Coteaz right?

Well aside from the fact that they've taken every single Inquisitorial thing and squished them into a single unit, we still need two GK units to fill compulsory troops requirements.

Let's not do this. This is why the first N&R thread was locked.

Yeah, don't say this near Phear.


EVER.

I still can't believe we made a YMDC thread about a codex that wasn't even released yet...

Platuan4th wrote:

Cerebrium wrote:

H.B.M.C. wrote:

Mr Hyena wrote:How are they? we still have Coteaz right?

Well aside from the fact that they've taken every single Inquisitorial thing and squished them into a single unit, we still need two GK units to fill compulsory troops requirements.

Let's not do this. This is why the first N&R thread was locked.

Yeah, don't say this near Phear.


EVER.

Hmmm, I have hazy memories about "boxes". If only I could remember the rest...

Ah the inquisition have found me!