Ok kids, forgive me if this has been dealt with yet, but...

1. Dreadknights can take Personal Teleporters
2. Units with Personal Teleporters are Jump Infantry.

so:

1. Can a Stormraven (which can carry Jump Infantry) take a Dreadknight in its cabin?
2. Does a Dreadknight with a Personal Teleporter no longer count as a Monstrous Creature?



-Dis.

This has come up before, and rather recently.

There's no firm decision on YMDC, yet, as most of us haven't seen the finalized codex. But, it appears that a DK with Personal Teleporters does become Jump Infantry.

That means that they are no longer MCs (no 2D6 armor penetration, no firing 2 weapons, easier job of getting cover, can ride in Stormraven, etc).

I'm in the boat that this is a mistake in GW's part and will be fixed when the errata for C:GK is released (in 2-3 months as a very rough guess).

Nothing says you cant be an MC JI, in which case you couldnt embark in the Stormraven.

I have the final book in-hand, and I can't find anything that would imply otherwise.

I agree it's probably a mistake, but the RAW is as it is for now.

Thanks!
-Dis.

Last I checked Jump Infantry and Monstrous Creature were not mutually exclusive types. I.E. you can simultaneously be a monstrous creature and jump infantry. Certainly this has been the case in every codex thus far.

That'd be like a hive tyrant with wings still a mc moves like ji. I say no it can't embark

nosferatu1001 wrote:Nothing says you cant be an MC JI, in which case you couldnt embark in the Stormraven.

Good point. I've always assumed the different unit types were mutually exclusive, but I can't find anything that explicitly says this.

But, everything else that changes unit type is assumed to loose it's previous one. Is there any other model out their with wording indicating it would end up with multiple unit types?

chaos0xomega wrote:Last I checked Jump Infantry and Monstrous Creature were not mutually exclusive types. I.E. you can simultaneously be a monstrous creature and jump infantry. Certainly this has been the case in every codex thus far.

There has never been a unit that is both Jump Infantry and MC before now. Previously, MCs that got wings or upgrades like that were said to "move like jump infantry". They didn't actually become jump infantry.

Yonush wrote:That'd be like a hive tyrant with wings still a mc moves like ji. I say no it can't embark

A Tyrant moves like Jump Infantry. A DK with the personal teleporter is Jump Infantry.

If it's both, and since there's no rule in the MC section that disallows an MC from embarking a transport, and the Storm Raven makes a specific allowance for Jump Infantry (which the DK "is", as opposed to "moving in the manner of", does that allowance take precedence?

Just a little devil's advocacy here, btw

-Dis.

disdainful wrote:If it's both, and since there's no rule in the MC section that disallows an MC from embarking a transport, and the Storm Raven makes a specific allowance for Jump Infantry (which the DK "is", as opposed to "moving in the manner of", does that allowance take precedence?

actually in the transport section it says that only infantry can embark on transports unless stated otherwise.

I spent some more time with the codex today, and there are a couple of points about this. Granted the rules specifically state one thing, and a house rule is required to change it until the FAQ comes out.

There is nothing that specifically overrides being a monstrous creature, but it does say, Models with personal teleporters are jump infantry. So the question becomes can a model be 2 unit types at once? The answer would be nothing prevents you from being two unit types at once. So you could either be jump infantry or a monstrous creature or a monstrous creature jump infantry.

As a slight aside, the TO that runs our local tourneys has already said that they will not count as jump infantry, but rather a monstrous creature that moves as jump infantry. So a house rule allows you to overcome this problem, but in a strictly RAW environment it's up in the air.


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disdainful wrote:

Yonush wrote:That'd be like a hive tyrant with wings still a mc moves like ji. I say no it can't embark

A Tyrant moves like Jump Infantry. A DK with the personal teleporter is Jump Infantry.

If it's both, and since there's no rule in the MC section that disallows an MC from embarking a transport, and the Storm Raven makes a specific allowance for Jump Infantry (which the DK "is", as opposed to "moving in the manner of", does that allowance take precedence?

Just a little devil's advocacy here, btw

-Dis.

Now you have a double edged sword. You are jump infantry, but you are also a monstrous creature. The BRB says only infantry can embark, unless there is a special rule that states otherwise. So you can because your jump infantry, but you cannot because you are still also a monstrous creature.

The heart of this issue is the question of whether or not you cane be two unit types. If so, then the assumption would be that, beholden to the 'infantry only' embarkation prohibition, something that was an MC (in addition to whatever else it might be), it would be disallowed from embarking a transport.

If not... I'd give up 2d6 armor penetration so I can hop in the cabin of a Stormraven (counting as two models for purposes of capacity, no less! )

-Dis.

I'm actually really surprised that the Storm Raven wording in Codex: Grey Knights doesn't say it can carry 1 dreadnought or 1 MC (dreadknight) or something to that effect. The rules seem to support that a MC JI combo would have the restrictions of both (not being infantry to embark) but the fluff in me wonders how a dreadknight differs from a dreadnought as far as transportation is concerned.

zeshin wrote:I'm actually really surprised that the Storm Raven wording in Codex: Grey Knights doesn't say it can carry 1 dreadnought or 1 MC (dreadknight) or something to that effect. The rules seem to support that a MC JI combo would have the restrictions of both (not being infantry to embark) but the fluff in me wonders how a dreadknight differs from a dreadnought as far as transportation is concerned.

It's incredibly larger and heavier?

In a friendly game get it out of your systems and have a laugh at a disembarking Dreadknight. In tourneys expect to be laughed out of the building if you expect to pull a RAW argument for this one.

BlueDagger wrote:

zeshin wrote:I'm actually really surprised that the Storm Raven wording in Codex: Grey Knights doesn't say it can carry 1 dreadnought or 1 MC (dreadknight) or something to that effect. The rules seem to support that a MC JI combo would have the restrictions of both (not being infantry to embark) but the fluff in me wonders how a dreadknight differs from a dreadnought as far as transportation is concerned.

It's incredibly larger and heavier?

In a friendly game get it out of your systems and have a laugh at a disembarking Dreadknight. In tourneys expect to be laughed out of the building if you expect to pull a RAW argument for this one.

It's taller I'll give you that, and I would never even think of a using any rules loophole to put one in a transport like they were Jump Infantry.

Unit Types seem to be mutually exclusive; but no matter on that, more to the point:

The Dread Knight becomes JI, Personal Teleporters convert to the new type, not add Jump Infantry to the unit.

the Wording is exactly the Same as for SM Bikes, Jump Packs in all SM Codices, Jetbikes for Farseers/autarcs, etc. To say that the PTs add JI to the unit type then Captains on Bikes can enter transports.

Kommissar Kel wrote:the Wording is exactly the Same as for SM Bikes, Jump Packs in all SM Codices, Jetbikes for Farseers/autarcs, etc. To say that the PTs add JI to the unit type then Captains on Bikes can enter transports.

That's a good point. This is what I was hoping for. Thanks!
-Dis.

Kommissar Kel wrote:
the Wording is exactly the Same as for SM Bikes, Jump Packs in all SM Codices, Jetbikes for Farseers/autarcs, etc. To say that the PTs add JI to the unit type then Captains on Bikes can enter transports.

Black Templars with jump packs move as jump infantry, and as such may be swallowed by JotWW. They may also embark on transports.

Black Templars aren't real SMs; every body knows that

OK, most Space-marine Codices. Although once again we have another example of an upgrade that grants "Moves like" vs "Becomes" So my point is not invalidated.

Kommissar Kel wrote:the Wording is exactly the Same as for SM Bikes, Jump Packs in all SM Codices, Jetbikes for Farseers/autarcs, etc. To say that the PTs add JI to the unit type then Captains on Bikes can enter transports.

The wording is actually very different;

1. Wording for PT- Models with Personal Teleporters are Jump infantry.

2. Wording for Space marine bike- Models equipped with space marine bikes follow all the rules for bikes as described in the Warhammer 40,000 rulebook.

3. Wording for Jetbikes- Eldar Jetbike: These are fitted with twin-linked shuriken catapults, increase the rider's toughness by 1 point, and in addition confer a 3+ armour save to the rider. See the Warhammer 40,000 rulebook for details of the movement of Eldar Jetbikes.

So Space marine bike captains follow all the rules for bikes, and as bikes are not allowed to embark without special rules they can't be brought into the debate. Units that are upgraded to have jetbikes (Autarch/Farseer/Warlocks) have their unit type changed to bike (as jetbike is just a subset of the bike rules) as per the codex so it's specifically written what happens there, they become that unit type. None of those are worded the same as Personal Teleporters.

Here we have something that is different, as they are Monstrous creatures to begin with. The codex says models with PT are jump infantry. It doesn't say that it changes the unit type to jump infantry, it doesn't say that it is only jump infantry, it just says they are jump infantry. I take that to mean they are affected by things that affect Jump infantry, and are affected by things that affect Monstrous creatures. If something targets one type but not the other (JotWW), you are affected by it as you are of a unit type that is listed in the power description, and cannot claim that both types must be listed to be affected.

Supporting evidence: the Chaos Daemon codex which has plenty of upgrades which change the unit type of a model (heralds changing to cavalry, jetbikes, and jump infantry), and then for Daemonic Flight specifically says "move like Jump Infantry".

Or CSM where one upgrade (wings) specifies "moves in the same way as Jump Infantry" vs. jetbacks which cause the model to become Jump Infantry. In contrast to the Daemonic Steeds which specify "changes the unit type of the model to ____".

And then there's the Tyranid book...

If the Personal Teleporter specifies that the model becomes Jump Infantry, then GW's finally managed to publish a rule allowing a MC to stop being a MC.

I say no to the embarking in a Raven.Its an MC and i will be playing it as moves like Jump Infantry,not is JI.Would anyone really try to say its embarked,the thing is controlled by a marine in termie armour after all.

Pedro Kantor wrote:I say no to the embarking in a Raven.Its an MC

Then you must not have given it a personal teleporter!

Show me the rule saying it is ONLY Jump infnatry, and you'd have a point.

There isnt one. It is jump infantry AND an MC, and as such cannot embark.

Remember the previous Tyranid codex, and the previous Tyranid FAQ which had to include a statement that putting wings on a Hive Tyrant only made it move like jump infantry instead of turning it into jump infantry? Unit types have always been exclusive.

So, nosferatu1001, please show us the rules allowing a unit to have multiple unit types, because otherwise "It doesn't say they can't be" sounds suspiciously like "It doesn't say they can't."

my 2c worth?

i do not see why it can not embark...

1. the rules are loop holey about JI vs MC
2. the raven can carry vehicles (dreadnaught)

if all fails use common sense?

Yeah their is no way for it to be both an MC and JI they are mutually exclusive and trying to make it a hybrid of both unit types simply does not work.

For instance how does it shoot it must follow both the rules for infantry shoot (as per the JI rules) and the MC shooting rules (as per the MC rules). It can't follow both!

However it is completley obvious what the Teleporter does here and it just allows the Dreadknight to move as JI and gain the 30" shunt. You can houserule it to follow the RaW that he becomes JI until an FaQ comes out if you wish.

solkan wrote:Supporting evidence: the Chaos Daemon codex which has plenty of upgrades which change the unit type of a model (heralds changing to cavalry, jetbikes, and jump infantry), and then for Daemonic Flight specifically says "move like Jump Infantry".

Or CSM where one upgrade (wings) specifies "moves in the same way as Jump Infantry" vs. jetbacks which cause the model to become Jump Infantry. In contrast to the Daemonic Steeds which specify "changes the unit type of the model to ____".

And then there's the Tyranid book...

If the Personal Teleporter specifies that the model becomes Jump Infantry, then GW's finally managed to publish a rule allowing a MC to stop being a MC.

The chaos daemon codex is more specific than the GK codex though. It states, "and changes the herald's type from infantry to..." which is far more detailed than a sentence of, "models with personal teleporters are jump infantry." It doesn't specifically say that they change their type to jump infantry, it just says they are. It doesn't say they lose their previous unit type either.

Either way we can argue until we're blue in the face about this. If we use a little (god forbid) common sense, and extrapolate how it works for everything else where it says "moves as jump infantry" we can settle on middle ground. We're all so stuck in arguing by RaW that we can't see the forest for the trees, and we're all intelligent people and can draw a conclusion to 2+2 without needing to know how to multiply 2x2.

nosferatu1001 wrote:Show me the rule saying it is ONLY Jump infnatry, and you'd have a point.

There isnt one. It is jump infantry AND an MC, and as such cannot embark.

How is it both moving as infantry(6", effected by terrain), and Jump infantry(12", ignores terrain) at the Same time? If it is both it must follow both rules, the only way to do that is to only ever move as infantry.

If it becomes both MC and Jump Infantry than it is just a MC(That can shunt once per game).

Gotta agree with what (frightfully) appears to be the minority decision here: This oversight has been ruled on multiple times over multiple editions, it simply becomes a monstrous creature that moves as jump infantry, can deep strike as jump infantry, takes dangerous terrain tests as jump infantry, and all the rest whilst remaining a monstrous creature. I know the current edition Tyranid codex was mentioned, but IIRC the 4th edition codex simply stated "counts as jump infantry" and not "moves as jump infantry". And it was ruled as above, to be a MC and JI simultaneously. You weren't able to 'hide' the tyrant behind a brood of gargoyles.

My opinion: this is a laughable question. It definitely falls into the category of question ranted about last year by Yakface.


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Kommissar Kel wrote:

nosferatu1001 wrote:Show me the rule saying it is ONLY Jump infnatry, and you'd have a point.

There isnt one. It is jump infantry AND an MC, and as such cannot embark.

How is it both moving as infantry(6", effected by terrain), and Jump infantry(12", ignores terrain) at the Same time? If it is both it must follow both rules, the only way to do that is to only ever move as infantry.

If it becomes both MC and Jump Infantry than it is just a MC(That can shunt once per game).

Jump infantry count as infantry in most cases, to the point where they can choose to move 6" as infantry or 12" as jump infantry. They don't stop being jump infantry, they just choose not to 'jump' that turn, to avoid dangerous terrain tests and what not.

nosferatu1001 wrote:Show me the rule saying it is ONLY Jump infnatry, and you'd have a point.

There isnt one. It is jump infantry AND an MC, and as such cannot embark.

^ is correct.

And we all know that what GW has done in the past has no bearing on any new codex, so even if there was a rule that said you can not be more than one unit type (No such rule) that does not mean a future Codex could not over ride that and list something as a Monstrous Jump Infantry Creature.

As for moving, Jump infantry can move 6" while not using the packs and 12" while using the packs, the DK would be able to choose as well.

As for shooting it can shoot 1 gun for being JI, and is allowed two for being a MC. so it can fire two.

Im sure it said moves as jump infantry I look on monday (in store copy :3)

No, it doesnt. It states "are"

So, why the feth would anyone want to put it in a raven?
I would allow it if someone used it against me, but im just a cruel bastard.

since you know, its no longer a MC, so doesent ignore saves, goes back to 1D6 pen, has to stick to firing restrictions etc.

All in all, its a fething MC, anyone seen it stood by a raven? i wanna know how it fits.
Also, it aint a fething dreadnought, so cant use the racks.

Apart from its doomfists, which are power weapons....

What S are they using?

Assuming it works as likely-intended, S10

Otherwise it would be S7 with hammerhand

There is no Personal Teleporter in the Wargear section nor are there rules within the Dreadknight's entry.

The only rules for the Personal Teleporter are within the Strike Squads & Interceptors Squads entry and this specifically stated "Personal Teleporter: (Interceptor Squad only)" so as far as you all should be concerned, there are no rules for the Personal Teleporter for the Dreadknight.

You cannot draw on rules from other unit entries to fill holes in the Dreadknight's entry and rules. Effectively, you could spend all those points for a Personal Teleporter with no rules, because the only rules that do exist state "Interceptor Squad only." As such, a Dreadknight could not possibly convert from MC to JI.

Specific > General

the Dreadknight specifies you can take a PT, thus you can.

Nos, what is that as RAW, not RAI?
Since you know, to get one in a raven its RAW, not RAI.
Im guessing its S7, in which case, AV 14 is safe.




On the note of PT rules: Got to agree with nos on this one.
Alot of rules are under a certain units entry before the unit selection pages.
If smash was right in what he is saying, tons of units would have rules and weapons that do nothing as they dont have them written on thier entry.

Smashotron wrote:There is no Personal Teleporter in the Wargear section nor are there rules within the Dreadknight's entry.

The only rules for the Personal Teleporter are within the Strike Squads & Interceptors Squads entry and this specifically stated "Personal Teleporter: (Interceptor Squad only)" so as far as you all should be concerned, there are no rules for the Personal Teleporter for the Dreadknight.

You cannot draw on rules from other unit entries to fill holes in the Dreadknight's entry and rules. Effectively, you could spend all those points for a Personal Teleporter with no rules, because the only rules that do exist state "Interceptor Squad only." As such, a Dreadknight could not possibly convert from MC to JI.

It's in the options for a dreadknight, and you most certainly can. Plenty of codexes list an item of wargear in one unit entry and allow other units to take it as well.

Model: Drazhar
Wargear: Demiklaives
Where: In the incubi section, not listed in his own.

Theres one quick example which kinda ruins you idea of no entry, no use.

This is a joke thread, right? I mean, no one can seriously not understand how it is supposed to work?

As for shooting it can shoot 1 gun for being JI, and is allowed two for being a MC. so it can fire two.

Sorry but this is not correct it can ONLY shoot 1 weapon because it is JI but it can also shoot 2 Weapons because it is an MC, you have no way of choosing which rule takes precedence. Infact both HAVE to take precedence. Thus say the changeling makes you shoot your own unit you must both shoot 2 weapons and can only shoot 1...

It simply can't be that a unit has more than 1 type.

Nos, what is that as RAW, not RAI?
Since you know, to get one in a raven its RAW, not RAI.
Im guessing its S7, in which case, AV 14 is safe.

It would be S10 your strength is doubled and you ignore armour for being armed with a doomfist.

I do love how the rulebook only comes <.> this close to actually saying specifically what they do.

"While monstrous creatures use many of the infantry rules, their size and destructive capability make them a lot more dangerous"

"Jump Infantry can move like normal infantry or activate their jump device to make a high-speed move, leaping over intervening terrain and models."

So close, yet so far away.

Btw, as far as possibility of it having a Dreadknight on it, I'd say yes. As far as it being in the cargo hold where the infantry goes, I'd say no. The Dreadnaughts in the Stormraven's from the blood angels don't sit in a compartment they are grappled onto the ship

Exact wording from the Blood Angel codex:(Yes I know not the same codex, as I don't live near a GW place I'm going by what I have, if anyone could actually post the EXACT wording of the Storm Raven entry that would be helpful)
"The Stormraven can carry two separate squads: one unit of up to 12 models in its cabin, plus a sinngle Dreadnought in its rear grapples(..blah blah Michael Bay explosions..) Now insert the part where it says jump infantry can embark but count as 2 models .. which is where the conversation is "

Also interestingly enough I did find this tidbit..

"You will find that codexes often add even more changes and exceptions for specific models. In any given situation during a battle, if the Codex doesn't say any different, follow the rules for the appropiate unit type, and if those rules don't say anything different, follow the rules for basic infantry."

... So, if I'm not mistaken says right there, use rules for basic infantry.. meaning loses MC?

No, nothing makes it lose its MC status.

'if the Codex doesn't say any different, follow the rules for the appropiate unit type'

the appropriate unit type in this case is MC. adding a Jump pack does not make the DK smaller, so he still can not fit inside the Stormraven.

FlingitNow wrote:It simply can't be that a unit has more than 1 type.

Page Number Please.

I'm agreeing with you death in this case, its just to me its a matter of one or the other, or it counts as basic infantry. They are saying that it becomes both, and as there are no rules for both, you use the appropriate type which I'd imagine is the default it starts as. And if that is still in dispute then it loses ALL BENEFITS.. buwhahahah, no jump infantry no monstrous creature!

'if the Codex doesn't say any different, follow the rules for the appropiate unit type'

the appropriate unit type in this case is MC. adding a Jump pack does not make the DK smaller, so he still can not fit inside the Stormraven.

THE appropriate unit type. Notice the total lack of pluralisation in that sentence...

So how many guns can it fire and if it moves can it fire heavy weapons?

Where would it go?

Transforms into an overhead locker?

I'll tell you where it goes, if you can tell me how you fit 10 space marines into a Rhino..

There is alot of problems with the dreadknight lol

the rule is any model with blah ARE Jump Infantry

However it does not state your unit type is jump infantry

So its an If you think a model can be and MC and jump infantry

and not or can go in a SR

Also DCCW dont do anything to MCs

So its an If you think a model can be and MC and jump infantry

How can it possibly shoot like both infantry and an MC at the same time? THat is what you are requiring it to do by saying it is both an MC and JI. It can not possibly be both it is one or the other.

FlingitNow wrote:

So its an If you think a model can be and MC and jump infantry

How can it possibly shoot like both infantry and an MC at the same time? THat is what you are requiring it to do by saying it is both an MC and JI. It can not possibly be both it is one or the other.

Im not saying it can, im just saying thats what it comes down to due to the failed rules writing


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f74 wrote:Where would it go?

Transforms into an overhead locker?

Autobots assemble

oh wait

Overwatch CNC brought this up on Capture and Control. I think that this goes two ways like OW says. If you indeed lose MC status but gain JI status then you lose MC for everything, including 2d6 for ap in CC!

f74 wrote:Transforms into an overhead locker?

*gasp* It is the Stormraven!


No, but on a more serious note, with every new GK thread on Dakka, I hate Mat Ward just a little bit more.

Slackermagee wrote:Jump infantry count as infantry in most cases, to the point where they can choose to move 6" as infantry or 12" as jump infantry. They don't stop being jump infantry, they just choose not to 'jump' that turn, to avoid dangerous terrain tests and what not.

This is where your wrong. In the BRB under Unit Types, Jump Infantry is clearly a seperate type from Infantry where Jetbikes are a subtype of Bikes.

Interestingly enough, it doesn't matter. Seeing as the Dreadknight is a single model unit, you can't join ICs to him, and if he gets into the interior of a Stormraven, he's the only thing that is going to be inside there.

Even if someone wanted to play like this, it wouldn't be that big of a deal- stormravens can carry a unit of Paladins, why would it matter if someone wanted to transport a single dreadknight (that loses it's 2d6 pen and x2 guns, nonetheless).

Moot point really. If you play against someone and they really want to do this, let them. This use is incredibly points-inefficient, especially for a 200+ MC that they paid to put a personal teleporter on (that they are now not using for mobility, because it is sitting alone inside a SR).

You can't stack multiple Dreadknights into the Raven, because it only holds 1 unit of guys inside (the dreadknight being a unit of 1 model) and 1 Walker on the outside. If someone attempts to do this in a game, just let them. Nothing about it is even remotely scary.

I think it's pretty clear that the intention of the rule would be for him to "move like" jump infantry instead of actually becoming jump infantry. No, it doesn't say that specifically but to think anything else seems a little ridiculous. If for no other reason than just everything that's been stated here, losing 2d6 pen, losing the ability to fire two weapons, no more moving and shooting heavy weapons, no MTC...

Also, in the instance of the dreadknight actually being both unit types, you would go the route that breaks the fewest rules. So, if he IS both JI and MC, and only JI can go on the storm raven, then he still wouldn't be able to go because MC can't go on the storm raven and he would "still" be an MC.

And yes, while JI may be a separate unit type (as opposed to a subtype) the differences between infantry and jump infantry are not that substantial and it is quite clear (or should be, to everyone) that JI is meant to simply be an upgraded (see, BETTER) infantry type.

It seems like RAW is actually (unintentionally) supporting RAI. Going by RAW there is nothing taking away his MC status (I've seen worse renderings by RAW) so he's disallowed from embarking. Going by RAI, it's pretty clear the wording was suppose to just give him Jump Infantry movement, not change his type. If people do try to argue that he is now Jump Infantry (which would take a combination of RAW and RAI, since there's no RAW stating that unit types are mutually exclusive). Just my 2 cents.

Also, there seems to be ALOT of these cropping up with the GK codex. Maybe they pushed it out the door a little too fast?

FlingitNow wrote:So how many guns can it fire and if it moves can it fire heavy weapons?

For the record, having MC and JI would not make it lose Relentless, which MC gives.

MC also gives the ability to fire two weapons.

MCs need to be covered by 50% to receive a cover bonus.

MCs can not embark in any vehicle.

JI gives the ability to move 12".

JI take dangerous terrain tests when landing in difficult terrain and using their jump packs.

JI can not embark in any vehicle.

JI and MC are forbidden to embark. Stormravens allow JI to embark, but not MC, and he most definitely is an MC. It would benefit from all of the abilities granted by both unit types, and suffer from all the penalties. Are you suggesting a Dreadknight with PT would not need 50% coverage for a cover save?

For the record, having MC and JI would not make it lose Relentless, which MC gives.

why not? JI are specified to shoot as normal infantry. Can normal infantry fire as MCs?

What I want to see is a squad of Death Company models wearing Jump Packs get into a transport because they're still Infantry models.

Since there's no rule that states that Infantry models which "are Jump Infantry" stop being Infantry models, just like there's no rule stating that MC's that "are Jump Infantry" stop being MC's.

Or the Space Marine character with a Jump Pack that gets sniped with JotWW because he's still effected for the same reason.

The joys of arguing over the meaning of is.

The defined unit types in Warhammer 40k are listed on page 4 and 5 of the BRB. There is no combined unit types on that page. There is no MC/JI on that page.

RAW the GK cdex tells you flat out that a unit with personal teleporter is JI. Raw this is supported in the BRB by the defined unit types in Warhammer 40k.

Dreadknight with personal teleporter is JI, as stated in the GK codex and supported by page 4 and 5 of the BRB. Deal with it until a FAQ is released.

Dreadknight with personal teleporter is JI, as stated in the GK codex and supported by page 4 and 5 of the BRB. Deal with it until a FAQ is released.

Whilst you are right on RaW why the last comment? You know what the actual rule is (the RaI) so why intentionally play it different to the rules? Surely that is the definition of cheating?

mpangelu wrote:I'll tell you where it goes, if you can tell me how you fit 10 space marines into a Rhino..

For the 29379827th time, there have been people who have modeled this. 10 Space Marines fit into a Rhino. They are sitting down, without their bases, obviously, as the tank was meant to transport, not provide 1st class comfort. Same with Ork Trukks and Battlewagons. People have modeled them to prove, without question, that they are scaled appropriately.

It's those Imperial Guard who enjoy a ton of room in their vehicles...

Brother Ramses wrote:The defined unit types in Warhammer 40k are listed on page 4 and 5 of the BRB. There is no combined unit types on that page. There is no MC/JI on that page.

RAW the GK cdex tells you flat out that a unit with personal teleporter is JI. Raw this is supported in the BRB by the defined unit types in Warhammer 40k.

Dreadknight with personal teleporter is JI, as stated in the GK codex and supported by page 4 and 5 of the BRB. Deal with it until a FAQ is released.

Actually RAW only units with teleporterS are JI, and as the dread knight may by RAW not take more than one, he stays a MC.

Deal with it until a FAQ is released.

Jidmah wrote:

Brother Ramses wrote:The defined unit types in Warhammer 40k are listed on page 4 and 5 of the BRB. There is no combined unit types on that page. There is no MC/JI on that page.

RAW the GK cdex tells you flat out that a unit with personal teleporter is JI. Raw this is supported in the BRB by the defined unit types in Warhammer 40k.

Dreadknight with personal teleporter is JI, as stated in the GK codex and supported by page 4 and 5 of the BRB. Deal with it until a FAQ is released.

Actually RAW only units with teleporterS are JI, and as the dread knight may by RAW not take more than one, he stays a MC.

Deal with it until a FAQ is released.

You do realize the reason it says UNITS with TELEPORTERS and not a unit with a teleporter is to refer to the fact an army may have more than ONE unit in it that is capable of taking teleporters and becoming jump infantry.

Instead of having to say "A unit with a teleporter or a multiple model unit with teleporters counts as Jump Infantry. They can just say Units with Teleporters are jump infantry. I can take a squad of 5 interceptors and 2 dreadknights...and when describing my army I would say I have three UNITS with TELEPORTERS.

Well, they could have worded it that way, but they didn't. This is the core of many, many rules arguments. A correct and clean wording would have been "any infantry model with a personal teleporter is jump infantry instead".

So any unit with less than 2 teleporters is not jump infantry.

Your army contains three units with a teleporter or at least one teleporter, but only one unit with teleporters.

If a Stormraven does not transport MC then it cannot transport a Dreadknight as it will still be a monstrous creature that moves like jump infantry. Look at Daemon Princes: Monstrous Creature. Give them wings: Move as Jump Infantry and may deep strike. Look at Tyranids: Winged Tyrant. Honestly, why put it in a stormraven when you pay 75 points for a 30" jump?

Defeatmyarmy wrote:If a Stormraven does not transport MC then it cannot transport a Dreadknight as it will still be a monstrous creature that moves like jump infantry. Look at Daemon Princes: Monstrous Creature. Give them wings: Move as Jump Infantry and may deep strike. Look at Tyranids: Winged Tyrant. Honestly, why put it in a stormraven when you pay 75 points for a 30" jump?

Because you can move it 24", drop it precisely, and it can still assault? All why not being shot at. Then after first turn you can shunt it to other side?

Logically I agree, it is a MC with jump infantry movement. HOWEVER, the RAW say it BECOMES jump infantry, not "MOVES AS" like with the nids and chaos examples people have been pointing out. The problem then becomes can you be classified as actually being two different unit types, and not simple one unit type with special rules similar to another.

I have seen people who argue for it actually being jump infantry solely and thus being able to fit in a storm raven since only one knight can be in a unit and only one unit can embark in the raven, thus there is plenty of room for it. So I guess if your willing to lose the MC benefits, you could do this RAW now.

It cannot assault if you dro it out the Flat Out! Stormraven

Jidmah wrote:

Brother Ramses wrote:The defined unit types in Warhammer 40k are listed on page 4 and 5 of the BRB. There is no combined unit types on that page. There is no MC/JI on that page.

RAW the GK cdex tells you flat out that a unit with personal teleporter is JI. Raw this is supported in the BRB by the defined unit types in Warhammer 40k.

Dreadknight with personal teleporter is JI, as stated in the GK codex and supported by page 4 and 5 of the BRB. Deal with it until a FAQ is released.

Actually RAW only units with teleporterS are JI, and as the dread knight may by RAW not take more than one, he stays a MC.

Deal with it until a FAQ is released.

By that standard the DK can get a personal teleporter and do absolutely nothing with it because he only has one teleporter, not teleporterS.

Even moreso, the entry says INTERCEPTORS ONLY, so go ahead and buy a non-working personal teleporter, because you need more then one and then not be able to use them even more because it is a Dreadknight, not Interceptors.

You're actually going to argue that?

Funny how people cherry-pick the JI part, but ignore all other restrictions obviously not meant for the dread knight.

Also see this: http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/60/359505.page#2663212

Monsterous Jump-Infantry Creatures work perfektly fine unter 5th edition rules.

Monsterous Jump-Infantry Creatures work perfektly fine unter 5th edition rules.

How do they shoot? They are required to shoot as both MCs and normal infantry...

Ramses. Show me the rule that says a unit can only be one unit type. Seriously, page number, quote, etc.

We all know how this is supposed to work, it's a Monstrous Creature that is also Jump Infantry. It has to abide by the rules and restrictions of BOTH unit types (altho personlly, I'd let it shoot two weapons). This is, of course, IMO.

It has to abide by the rules and restrictions of BOTH unit types (altho personlly, I'd let it shoot two weapons).

So how many shots does it take when changeling makes it shoot its own men?

Show me a rule saying it can be 2 unit types? So me any other model that is 2 unit types?

don_mondo wrote:Ramses. Show me the rule that says a unit can only be one unit type. Seriously, page number, quote, etc.

We all know how this is supposed to work, it's a Monstrous Creature that is also Jump Infantry. It has to abide by the rules and restrictions of BOTH unit types (altho personlly, I'd let it shoot two weapons). This is, of course, IMO.

Don...the kiddies are saying that you have to "prove that it is both" because the rules are permissive. Not vice versa.

Dumb...I know. I feel that the codex itself gives the DreadKnight both Statuses...being that it starts out a MC and gains JI status for 75pts.

I stopped arguing...b/c the point is moot anyway. People who play DK's as JI only will be branded douchebags and we sensible folk will be vindicated once the FAQ comes out.

At my GW they said that if anyone tries to ride a Dreadknight in a Storm Raven, then they're kicking them out. I think that's a pretty firm RAI vote right there.

Dreadknight into a Stormraven, really? Do you people seriously exist in someones FLGS?I feel sorry for them, Glad I don't have clowns like you guys around me, but then again I just wouldn't play someone that trys to pull most of this crap waving the RAW flag.

we sensible folk will be vindicated once the FAQ comes out.

No way the FaQ will say it is both MC and JI. It will say it moves a JI but is an MC. Probably an errata to change the wording on the Teleporter or just an FaQ stating that for the Dreadknight the teleporter makes it move as JI.

The FAQ will indeed say it moves as Jump Infantry. The reason why is because it was designed to be the counter to demon princes which when they have wings move as Jump Infantry. However as it is written right now, they do not move as Jump Infantry, they are Jump Infantry.

Keep barking up the combined unit tree of JI/MC. Unit types are clearly defined. JI/MC is not on that list, therefore it does not exist.

I agree it will move like Jump Infantry but a really don't think they wanted it inside the Stormraven.

If they were to indeed just completely lose their fricking minds and make it JI, I actually don't see it being loaded into a Storm Raven a problem, both game wise and fluff wise.

Fluffswise, the terminator pilot does not live in the damn thing, he is mounted and controlling it. He could be disembarked from the dreadknight and the dreadknight looks like it could just be a collapsible exoskeleton. Once he is to be deployed, the terminator fires up the system and mounts up to deploy in it.

Gamewise? Feel free to wrap up that many points in a vehicles that can pretty easily be popped despite a flat out cover save.

My take on this? Simple, since it is Jump Infantry it can. On the wargear it says it works like the interceptor squad [the teleporter says it works like the interceptors] since it has a Jump Pack or whatever its called it makes it Jump Infantry -_-"

FlingitNow wrote:

Monsterous Jump-Infantry Creatures work perfektly fine unter 5th edition rules.

How do they shoot? They are required to shoot as both MCs and normal infantry...

Did you read the linked post? I explained it in depth there. Rules of the units type always take precedence over infantry rules as per BRB pg. 52, so they are able to shoot two weapons.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Brother Ramses wrote:The FAQ will indeed say it moves as Jump Infantry. The reason why is because it was designed to be the counter to demon princes which when they have wings move as Jump Infantry. However as it is written right now, they do not move as Jump Infantry, they are Jump Infantry.

Keep barking up the combined unit tree of JI/MC. Unit types are clearly defined. JI/MC is not on that list, therefore it does not exist.

Note that a Fast/Tank is not defined either. So no more fast tanks for blood angels?

Did you read the linked post? I explained it in depth there. Rules of the units type always take precedence over infantry rules as per BRB pg. 52, so they are able to shoot two weapons.

But it is not infantry rules that require it to fire as infantry but the JI rules that require it. Therefore the MC status has no ability to override it. This is your issue.

JI does not have it's own rules for shooting, but uses infantry rules(BRB pg. 52)

If you have permission to fire one weapon and permission to fire two weapons, you may do either. There is no rule preventing infantry(or any other model) from firing more than one weapon, if they are allowed to do so by, for example, being a MC (BRB pg. 15).

Have you read page 52? Clear as day JI "follow the same rules as infantry" for shooting, not the same rules as MCs...

It says rules for infantry are ignored if the type tells you to do something different, on the exact same page.

Also infantry rules for shooting do not tell you to shoot only one weapon.

Where does it say that?

Even if it did say that the type is what is telling you specifically to use the Infantry rules the MC rules can not override that.

As for infantry not being banned from shooting 2 guns I'll have to look into that later. Havcen't the time to check was convinced they were though.

I can't believe that this is a real argument.

Arguing that a Teleporting Dreadknight loses MC-status is pretty absurd already as the only thing that has changed for the Dreadknight is how it moves but I can still see how GW may have intended this for balance reasons. Though at 75 points, the Personal Teleporter would be even more overpriced if this is the case. Point is, it is a little ridiculous but sure, I understand the argument.

Now I understand the question of Personal Teleporter Dreadknights embarking in a Stormraven can be a parody of the Personal Teleporter/Lose MC-status argument to make a mockery of the original issue but actually taking such a notion seriously is beyond ridiculous; it is insanity.

How in the world can a Dreadknight begin to fit inside of a Stormraven? Obviously 10 Space Marines will struggle to fit inside a Rhino and 12 would struggle to fit inside a Stormraven but the scale is fairly believable. However, a Dreadknight has zero chance of fitting inside of a Stormraven. And even if you could somehow argue that one could fit if contorted into an awkward position, how will you rationalize that it only takes up two transport slots?

There comes a point where RAW should be ignored, even in the strictest of competitive and tournament settings; this is clearly one of those points and to avoid appearing like powergaming TFGs, I would recommend dropping this argument and moving on to one of the many more reasonable rules disputes generated by Codex: Grey Knights.

There you go:

"Normally each model in a firing unit may fire a single weapon. Some models, including vehicles, may be able to fire more than one weapon, as detailed later." (pg. 15)

No other mention of the amount of weapons you can fire in the shooting section.

Also note that the MC shooting rules do not "override" the infantry rules.
Normal models have permission to fire one weapon.
MCs have permission to fire one weapon or two weapons at the same target.

The permissive ruleset means (boiled down) you may do anything you have permission to. You have permission to do anything allowed minus anything explicitly forbidden.
As "Follows rules for infantry" does not forbid the use of more than one weapon(see quote), any "Shoots like Infantry"/MC type would be allowed to shoot two weapons.

SonicPara wrote:I can't believe that this is a real argument.

It's a real argument for two reasons:

1) The wording on this rule is different from any other jump pack wording, so it behaves differently from other jump packs.

2) Throughout C:GK, there's a ton of rules problems and ambiguities. This upsets people, and they take out some of their frustration on message boards.

General_Chaos wrote:Dreadknight into a Stormraven, really? Do you people seriously exist in someones FLGS?I feel sorry for them, Glad I don't have clowns like you guys around me, but then again I just wouldn't play someone that trys to pull most of this crap waving the RAW flag.

+1

Also, whoever wrote "a stormraven can flat out 24" and allow an assault" should be pointed at and laughed at everytime he goes to a gaming event. You can only disembark and shoot/run anywhere it flew through.

Jidmah wrote:

FlingitNow wrote:

Monsterous Jump-Infantry Creatures work perfektly fine unter 5th edition rules.

How do they shoot? They are required to shoot as both MCs and normal infantry...

Did you read the linked post? I explained it in depth there. Rules of the units type always take precedence over infantry rules as per BRB pg. 52, so they are able to shoot two weapons.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Brother Ramses wrote:The FAQ will indeed say it moves as Jump Infantry. The reason why is because it was designed to be the counter to demon princes which when they have wings move as Jump Infantry. However as it is written right now, they do not move as Jump Infantry, they are Jump Infantry.

Keep barking up the combined unit tree of JI/MC. Unit types are clearly defined. JI/MC is not on that list, therefore it does not exist.

Note that a Fast/Tank is not defined either. So no more fast tanks for blood angels?

Actually you do as those are types of vehicles under the Vehicles unit type. I don't have my BRB here but it is is under the same reference that allows fast skimmers. Besides, we are talking about UNIT TYPES not VEHICLE TYPES. Unit types are defined on page 4 and 5 for Warhammer 40k, JI/MC is not included.

As for your pg. 52 reference, you have permission to use the singular unit type for each entry, not multiple unit types. This is a moot point anyway because you did not have permission to create an illegal unit type JC/MC in the first place so didn't have permissin to even check for unit type conflicts in the first place.

Nothing in the rules for Unit types (either in the front or middle of the book) says that a unit cannot be two types at once.

The Dreadknight rules make it a MC. And the wargear makes it JI. Nothing says it stops being an MC.

If my opponent insists that he wants it to stop being an MC, it will lose all the benefits and abilities of being an MC.

As we all know, the FAQ will probably errata it to "move as" jump infantry.

Mannahnin wrote:Nothing in the rules for Unit types (either in the front or middle of the book) says that a unit cannot be two types at once.

The Dreadknight rules make it a MC. And the wargear makes it JI. Nothing says it stops being an MC.

If my opponent insists that he wants it to stop being an MC, it will lose all the benefits and abilities of being an MC.

As we all know, the FAQ will probably errata it to "move as" jump infantry.

Nothing says that you can so therefore you can't arbitrarily create a unit type.

The fact that page 4 and 5 specifies the unit types of Warhammer 40k and the fact that MC/JI is not included is RAW that it is not part of Warhammer 40k. See what I did there?

no, but MC is a unit type, and JI is a unit type, in this badly written rule it would be a MC and JI. not a MC/JI

No, it doesn't say,

A unit with personal teleporters is also Jump Infantry.

It says,

A unit with personal teleporters is Jump Infantry.

Nothing more, nothing less. It is just Jump Infantry.

Yup. It's Jump Infantry, because the personal teleporter adds that. It's a Monstrous Creature, because its rules say it is.

Nothing in the rules indicates that a unit cannot have two types. Nothing in the Personal Teleporter rules specifies that it stops being an MC.

Mannahnin wrote:Yup. It's Jump Infantry, because the personal teleporter adds that. It's a Monstrous Creature, because its rules say it is.

Nothing in the rules indicates that a unit cannot have two types. Nothing in the Personal Teleporter rules specifies that it stops being an MC.

Nothing in the rules tells you to add Jump Infantry to the unit type. It flat out tells you that it is Jump Infantry.

A UNIT with personal teleporters is UNIT TYPE.

not

A UNIT TYPE with personal teleporters is UNIT TYPE.

Nothing in the rules allows you to be two unit types which is enforced by the specific unit types on page 4 and 5 of the BRB.

Some people are having a real heart attack over this. Neckbeards aside, I think that the FAQ is going to clear it up. I don't suppose anyone thinks that GW meant to have a monstrous creature turn into jump infantry? It was a clerical error in the book, of the kind GW is known for.

It's going to get corrected in the errata, so lower your blood pressure and relax- it was a mistake.

"Tank" and "Skimmer" aren't mutually exclusive. Why should unit types be?

Neither the list of unit types on page 4 and 5, nor the more detailed rules on 51-55, say a unit can't be two types.

I can see how you'd INFER that a unit can only be one type, but there is no such explicit or implicit statement in the rules.

The rules for the DK say it is an MC. The rules for the wargear say it is JI. Those are the rules making it each. No rule says it stops being an MC.

Mannahnin wrote:"Tank" and "Skimmer" aren't mutually exclusive. Why should unit types be?

Neither the list of unit types on page 4 and 5, nor the more detailed rules on 51-55, say a unit can't be two types.

I can see how you'd INFER that a unit can only be one type, but there is no such explicit or implicit statement in the rules.

The rules for the DK say it is an MC. The rules for the wargear say it is JI. Those are the rules making it each. No rule says it stops being an MC.

Tank and Skimmer are unit type VEHICLES. Unit type VEHICLES have specific rules in their entry how the types of VEHICLES can be mixed and what they become. You have none of those permissions for the Unit Types as defined on page 4 and 5.

And again, NOTHING SAYS YOU CAN. That is what you need to prove for you to be allowed to do it in Warhammer 40k.

The rules do indeed say that a DK is a MC. The rules also say that anytime that DK (unit) has a personal teleporter it is Jump Infantry (unit type). Notice that it is not MC, it is Jump Infantry. It says it is Jump Infantry. Not Jump Infantry/MC or Jump Infantry and Monstrous Creature. It is says it is Jump Infantry.

So where is the RAW that says it is not Jump Infantry/MC or Jump Infantry and Monstrous Creature? Look closely,

A unit with personal teleporters IS JUMP INFANTRY.

.....IS JUMP INFANTRY.

.........JUMP INFANTRY.

Kinda sneaky, but it is there.

And the Deadknight rules say it is a Monstrous Creature. There is your permission.

Sigh. Shouting and bad sarcasm ftl there BR.

The unit type is MC and the unit type is JI.

BROTHER RAMSES,

I dont understand what youre even arguing about anymore...... From what it looks like, youre saying giving the DK a personal teleporter nullifies that it is a MC, however, there is absolutely NOTHING saying that a personal teleporter replaces the fact it is a MC.

ARE YOU SAYING AN IC IS NO LONGER AN IC WHEN GIVEN A JUMP PACK?!

Biggest migraine ever,

signed by: DK (yes those are my initials lol)

Death Reaper: When I wrote JI/MC I meant "Monstrous Creature and Jump Infantry"

Brother Ramses: A model that is Jump Infantry and a Monstrous Creature

.....IS JUMP INFANTRY.

So no rules conflict here.

It does not say "instead", "becomes", "only" or any of the other word that could allow us to remove the type Monstrous Creature.

The dread knight works perfectly fine in RAW with two types, there is no reason to argue against it, unless you really want to throw them out of storm ravens.

DeathReaper wrote:
And the Deadknight rules say it is a Monstrous Creature. There is your permission.

The Deadknight rules say it is a Monstrous Creature.

.....is a Monstrous Creature.

.........is a Monstrous Creature.

Kinda sneaky, but it is there.

QFT because it does not have a personal teleporter. Glad to see you finally following the rules.

Defeatmyarmy wrote:BROTHER RAMSES,

I dont understand what youre even arguing about anymore...... From what it looks like, youre saying giving the DK a personal teleporter nullifies that it is a MC, however, there is absolutely NOTHING saying that a personal teleporter replaces the fact it is a MC.

ARE YOU SAYING AN IC IS NO LONGER AN IC WHEN GIVEN A JUMP PACK?!

Biggest migraine ever,

signed by: DK (yes those are my initials lol)

Strawman is strawman. Why even try and argue a unit special rule with a unit's unit type? Two completely unrelated rules. Good job there.

Jidmah wrote:Death Reaper: When I wrote JI/MC I meant "Monstrous Creature and Jump Infantry"

Brother Ramses: A model that is Jump Infantry and a Monstrous Creature

.....IS JUMP INFANTRY.

So no rules conflict here.

It does not say "instead", "becomes", "only" or any of the other word that could allow us to remove the type Monstrous Creature.

The dread knight works perfectly fine in RAW with two types, there is no reason to argue against it, unless you really want to throw them out of storm ravens.

The statement alone of, "is Jump Infantry" precludes it from being anything else other then Jump Infantry. You keep saying nothing stops it from being MC, except that is exactly what it does by clearly telling you that a unit with a personal teleporter is jump infantry. If gives you no direction to retain previous unit type, it gives you no direction to include previous unit type, and it gives you no direction to combine previous unit type.

A = B where A is a unit with personal teleporters and B is Jump Infantry.

Please try plugging any of your hybrid creations into that statement and make it a true statement. You can't. Even with your JI and MC premise you are not fulfilling that statement. That would be like saying salt water is salt, which is a untrue statement.

I'm pulling a lesser of two evils here...

Which is worse for you?


That's your answer.

Scipio Africanus wrote:I'm pulling a lesser of two evils here...

Which is worse for you?


That's your answer.

Interestingly enough, right now as RAW, neither.

You can face a Dreadknight that is highly mobile but is less powerful.

or

You can face a Dreadknight that is more powerful, but that is not highly mobile.

With the FAQ and/or errata you will more then likely have a powerful and mobile Dreadknight.

Units can have more than one type.

Brother Ramses wrote:

DeathReaper wrote:
And the Deadknight rules say it is a Monstrous Creature. There is your permission.

QFT because it does not have a personal teleporter. Glad to see you finally following the rules.

Now I will need a Page Number that removes Monstrous Creature from its unit type when you add a personal teleporter.

If you can find that page this discussion will end.

abortedsoul wrote:Some people are having a real heart attack over this. Neckbeards aside, I think that the FAQ is going to clear it up. I don't suppose anyone thinks that GW meant to have a monstrous creature turn into jump infantry? It was a clerical error in the book, of the kind GW is known for.

It's going to get corrected in the errata, so lower your blood pressure and relax- it was a mistake.

+1.Its going to be an MC that ' moves as ',i cannot believe anyone would ever say they want to lose all the MC rules and go with JI.I have yet to see anyone at my flgc or my flgs try and talk their way into transporting it in an SR.I am easy going and relaxed when it comes to gaming,but there are limits,even for me.

The statement alone of, "is Jump Infantry" precludes it from being anything else other then Jump Infantry. You keep saying nothing stops it from being MC, except that is exactly what it does by clearly telling you that a unit with a personal teleporter is jump infantry. If gives you no direction to retain previous unit type, it gives you no direction to include previous unit type, and it gives you no direction to combine previous unit type.

A = B where A is a unit with personal teleporters and B is Jump Infantry.

Please try plugging any of your hybrid creations into that statement and make it a true statement. You can't. Even with your JI and MC premise you are not fulfilling that statement. That would be like saying salt water is salt, which is a untrue statement.

So you want statements, huh? I can do that.#
First lets format your statement:

A = B where A is a unit with personal teleporters and B is Jump Infantry.

I. Statements:
1) A = B
2) X = a unit with personal teleporters
3) Y = Jump Infantry
4) A = X
5) B = Y

=> B = A
=> Y = A
=> Y = X
=> Jump Infantry = a unit with personal teleporters

II. Inserting "Stormboyz" for B.

=> Stormboyz is Jump Infantry
=> Stormboyz is Y
as Y = X
=> Stormboyz is X
=> Stormboyz is a unit with personal teleporters

quod errare demonstrandum.

Your statement has been proven as wrong, no need to insert anything.

If you disagree, don't forget to remind everyone fielding any kind of jump infantry against you of their 30" shunt teleport.

Jidmah, can I just say how much I appreciate your common sense approach to this - and your logic.

FYI

Tyranid Hive Tyrants from the previous codex (still used with this set of main rules) had this brought up periodically.

It still did not change that it was also a MC.

Giving it wings had it "treated as Jump Infantry in all respects."

Jidmah wrote:

The statement alone of, "is Jump Infantry" precludes it from being anything else other then Jump Infantry. You keep saying nothing stops it from being MC, except that is exactly what it does by clearly telling you that a unit with a personal teleporter is jump infantry. If gives you no direction to retain previous unit type, it gives you no direction to include previous unit type, and it gives you no direction to combine previous unit type.

A = B where A is a unit with personal teleporters and B is Jump Infantry.

Please try plugging any of your hybrid creations into that statement and make it a true statement. You can't. Even with your JI and MC premise you are not fulfilling that statement. That would be like saying salt water is salt, which is a untrue statement.

So you want statements, huh? I can do that.#
First lets format your statement:

A = B where A is a unit with personal teleporters and B is Jump Infantry.

I. Statements:
1) A = B
2) X = a unit with personal teleporters
3) Y = Jump Infantry
4) A = X
5) B = Y

=> B = A
=> Y = A
=> Y = X
=> Jump Infantry = a unit with personal teleporters

II. Inserting "Stormboyz" for B.

=> Stormboyz is Jump Infantry
=> Stormboyz is Y
as Y = X
=> Stormboyz is X
=> Stormboyz is a unit with personal teleporters

quod errare demonstrandum.

Your statement has been proven as wrong, no need to insert anything.

If you disagree, don't forget to remind everyone fielding any kind of jump infantry against you of their 30" shunt teleport.

The only problem with this is that it is not "All Jump Infantry have personal Teleporters", it is "Units with Personal Teleporters are jump infantry."

Unless I'm just misunderstanding your demonstration but it seems to mean your demonstration implies that all jump infantry have personal teleporters.

That being said, it's a ridiculous notion to think that the dreadknight would stop being an MC just because it had a personal teleporter and it's very clear and plain what the intention of GW was when writing in the option for the DK.

It does show this, based on Ramses colored statement being right. Of course stormboyz do not have Personal Teleporters, which results in a conflict, and thus proves the entire statement wrong.

Had to do similar exercises dozens times in college, finding a conflict is a common practise to prove a statement wrong.

It is a false logical arguement because he's take <=> and => to be the same.

Jidmah wrote:

The statement alone of, "is Jump Infantry" precludes it from being anything else other then Jump Infantry. You keep saying nothing stops it from being MC, except that is exactly what it does by clearly telling you that a unit with a personal teleporter is jump infantry. If gives you no direction to retain previous unit type, it gives you no direction to include previous unit type, and it gives you no direction to combine previous unit type.

A = B where A is a unit with personal teleporters and B is Jump Infantry.

Please try plugging any of your hybrid creations into that statement and make it a true statement. You can't. Even with your JI and MC premise you are not fulfilling that statement. That would be like saying salt water is salt, which is a untrue statement.

So you want statements, huh? I can do that.#
First lets format your statement:

A = B where A is a unit with personal teleporters and B is Jump Infantry.

I. Statements:
1) A = B
2) X = a unit with personal teleporters
3) Y = Jump Infantry
4) A = X
5) B = Y

=> B = A
=> Y = A
=> Y = X
=> Jump Infantry = a unit with personal teleporters

II. Inserting "Stormboyz" for B.

=> Stormboyz is Jump Infantry
=> Stormboyz is Y
as Y = X
=> Stormboyz is X
=> Stormboyz is a unit with personal teleporters

quod errare demonstrandum.

Your statement has been proven as wrong, no need to insert anything.

If you disagree, don't forget to remind everyone fielding any kind of jump infantry against you of their 30" shunt teleport.

If someone reminded me to Shunt my Stormboyz I would remind them that codex wargear and rules to do not cross into each other as per the GW errata/FAQ. Your entire point is false because Stormboyz don't have the option for personal teleporters nor do they have access to the special rules that are unique to another codex.

Jidmah wrote:It does show this, based on Ramses colored statement being right. Of course stormboyz do not have Personal Teleporters, which results in a conflict, and thus proves the entire statement wrong.

Had to do similar exercises dozens times in college, finding a conflict is a common practise to prove a statement wrong.

Except I am not applying a BRB rule that would apply to all armies within Warhammer 40k. I quoted a specific entry in the GK codex to which there is no flawed logic within that codex.

The only way that logic would be flawed is if the GK codex had some other way of making the units Jump Infantry. Lets say Jump Packs,

A=B, where A is a unit with personal teleporters or jump packs and B is Jump Infantry.

Would be the way for the statement to ring true.

As it stands there are no other means for a unit in the GK codex to become Jump Infantry other then to have personal teleporters. So the standard for the GK codex which is the topic at hand, not Orcs would be,

A=B, where A is a unit with personal teleporters and B is Jump Infantry

as well as the inverse being completely true for the GK codex,

B=A where B is Jump Infantry and A is a unit with personal teleporters.

Way to delve right out of the codex topic at hand. Notice that I said try to plug in any of your hybrid creations, not pull other units from completely different codices. I guess Stormboyz were one of the hybrids mentioned? Assault Marines? Warp Spiders?

Jidmah wrote:It does show this, based on Ramses colored statement being right. Of course stormboyz do not have Personal Teleporters, which results in a conflict, and thus proves the entire statement wrong.

Had to do similar exercises dozens times in college, finding a conflict is a common practise to prove a statement wrong.

Ah, I see what you were doing then. Sorry, got confused in all this muddled mess.

BR - in which case you need to use the single arrow, not equivalence. Your statement is entirely in error.

nosferatu1001 wrote:BR - in which case you need to use the single arrow, not equivalence. Your statement is entirely in error.

Didn't think it was needed considering the entire topic at hand has been about the GK codex and I even asked that said hybrid creations from the GK codex be the ones plugged. Last time I checked, at no time, were we talking about the Orc codex or even Stormboyz. For the standard being used, the GK codex, my statement is not in error.

No, you made a logical statement with errors. Deal with it. Your equivalence statement is invalid.

BTW: it;s JI AND MC, nothing states it loses its MC status. And it will be FAQd in a similar way.

Glad you can read the future.

And for the Codex Grey Knights, it is a true statement.

Is there anything in the GK dex that is Jump Infantry that does not have personal teleporters? Is there anything in the GK dex that has personal teleporters that is not Jump Infantry?

And we know that it won't be both, it will be a MC that moves as Jump Infantry. Just like HT with Wings and just like DP with Wings move as Jump Infantry.

"similar way", you missed it there.

You made a general equivalence statement, free of context. That was incorrect. Again, admit your error and move on.

Brother Ramses wrote:Just like HT with Wings and just like DP with Wings move as Jump Infantry.

Which was still not the case in the previous Tyranid codex still used with the current main rules--they did used to be both.
Codex: Tyranids 1994
"Winged creatures are treated as Jump Infantry in all respects."

No one played the Hive Tyrant without it being a Monstrous Creature, though with wings it was also Jump Infantry.

nosferatu1001 wrote:"similar way", you missed it there.

You made a general equivalence statement, free of context. That was incorrect. Again, admit your error and move on.

Free of context? I am posting in a thread called, "Dreadknights in Storm Ravens". I am referencing and quoting a rule in the Grey Knights codex. I am referencing and quoting a peice of wargear specific to the Grey Knights codex.

kirsanth wrote:

Brother Ramses wrote:Just like HT with Wings and just like DP with Wings move as Jump Infantry.

Which was still not the case in the previous Tyranid codex still used with the current main rules--they did used to be both.
Codex: Tyranids 1994
"Winged creatures are treated as Jump Infantry in all respects."

No one played the Hive Tyrant without it being a Monstrous Creature, though with wings it was also Jump Infantry.

And yet it was still questioned whether or not they could deepstrike, leading to the new codex entry and some still questioned whether they could deepstrike. If the last codex was all fine and dandy, why the change to moves as?

Even moreso, the old codex did not make the definitive statement that the unit with wings was jump infantry like the GK codex does with personal teleporters.

Brother Ramses wrote:Even moreso, the old codex did not make the definitive statement that the unit with wings was jump infantry like the GK codex does with personal teleporters.

"Winged creatures are treated as Jump Infantry in all respects" is a definitive statement and a direct quote.

There is no rule saying a unit cannot have two Unit Types.

The GK codex makes clear that a DK is an MC.
The GK codex makes clear that a DK with PT is JI.

Nothing in the core rules makes those two things mutually exclusive.
Nothing in the GK codex says that taking a PT removes the MC unit type.

Lol I feel like this arguement keeps going further and further south. We need GW to come out with a faq before the next large tourny or blood may be spilled.

If someone reminded me to Shunt my Stormboyz I would remind them that codex wargear and rules to do not cross into each other as per the GW errata/FAQ. Your entire point is false because Stormboyz don't have the option for personal teleporters nor do they have access to the special rules that are unique to another codex.

That was my entire point, please reread my post.

Brother Ramses. If you don't understand the error in your statement, you might want to consult a textbook about statements, there are some pretty good ones. Your statement said wearing teleporters and being jump infantry is exactly the same for all purposes, which is wrong. Wargear can never be equal to a type for obvious reasons. So of course a hybrid would not work in a wrong statment, as even regular jump infantry (ie. Stormboyz) does not work.

You claim:
1) All Units with teleporters must be Jump infantry. This is correct, because the Codex says so.

2) All Jump Infantry in the Grey Knight codex must be wearing teleporters. This is an assumption, no prove given so far. There is not a single unit "Jump Infantry" in the whole codex, unless you can prove hybrids being impossible. You can not prove anything based on asumptions.

3) Hybrids are impossible because of 1) and 2).


Lets assume you even proved 2) by giving Tzeench a call.

Insert Dread Knight with Teleporterof type Jump Infantry and Monstrous Creature.

I. If the Dread Knight is wearing a teleporter, he must be Jump Infantry. Is he? Yes.

II. All Jump Infantry in the Grey Knight Codex must be wearing Teleporters. Is he? Yes.

No conflict, 3) has been disproven by counter-example.

So you still don't have an agrument.

Jidmah wrote:

If someone reminded me to Shunt my Stormboyz I would remind them that codex wargear and rules to do not cross into each other as per the GW errata/FAQ. Your entire point is false because Stormboyz don't have the option for personal teleporters nor do they have access to the special rules that are unique to another codex.

That was my entire point, please reread my post.

Brother Ramses. If you don't understand the error in your statement, you might want to consult a textbook about statements, there are some pretty good ones. Your statement said wearing teleporters and being jump infantry is exactly the same for all purposes, which is wrong. Wargear can never be equal to a type for obvious reasons. So of course a hybrid would not work in a wrong statment, as even regular jump infantry (ie. Stormboyz) does not work.

You claim:
1) All Units with teleporters must be Jump infantry. This is correct, because the Codex says so.

2) All Jump Infantry in the Grey Knight codex must be wearing teleporters. This is an assumption, no prove given so far. There is not a single unit "Jump Infantry" in the whole codex, unless you can prove hybrids being impossible. You can not prove anything based on asumptions.

3) Hybrids are impossible because of 1) and 2).


Lets assume you even proved 2) by giving Tzeench a call.

Insert Dread Knight with Teleporterof type Jump Infantry and Monstrous Creature.

I. If the Dread Knight is wearing a teleporter, he must be Jump Infantry. Is he? Yes.

II. All Jump Infantry in the Grey Knight Codex must be wearing Teleporters. Is he? Yes.

No conflict, 3) has been disproven by counter-example.

So you still don't have an agrument.

Hahahahahahahah! Really?

You just state that a Dreadknight with a personal teleporteris Jump Infantry and Monstrous Creature and then contradict your own statement.

By your standard a Dreadknight with a personal teleporter is not Jump Infantry, he is Jump Infantry AND a Monstrous Creature so therefore does not fulfill the statement of a unit with a personal teleporter is Jump Infantry. You cannot retain the Monstrous Creature status and be Jump Infantry. Your little counter arguement falls flat on its face because you keep trying to retain AND Monstrous Creature when the codex only calls for it to be Jump Infantry. It is like you conveniently ignore that you are retaining the MC status when it calls for Jump Infantry and then conveniently ignoring JI when it calls for Monstrous Creature.

And by all means, please show me a case in the GK codex where a unit that is Jump Infantry does not have personal teleporters.

Jid and Nos Disclaimer:

This post is about the GK Codex in regard to GK wargear and GK units because context are important!

Brother Ramses wrote:By your standard a Dreadknight with a personal teleporter is not Jump Infantry, he is Jump Infantry

There was more afterwards, but really this is what makes the statement come across strangely.

Editing to add:
Necrons Monolith is a model that is a necron unit (without the Necron rule) that is a vehicle that is a tank that is a skimmer that has equipment that can function as weapons that can be ranged weapons that can be blast that can be ap1.

Which part of that sentence stops the rest from being true?
Or would it help more if I used a GK example? I did not as I do not have the book.

Brother Ramses wrote:Your little counter arguement falls flat on its face because you keep trying to retain AND Monstrous Creature when the codex only calls for it to be Jump Infantry.

A tomato can be yellow. Does that mean that it no longer is a tomato?

This thread has gotten circular and silly. Locking.