OK, splitting this topic off from a different topic where this sort of dragged it OT. What do you guys think? This is specific to the 40k line by GWS.

Note: There is no option for "I don't care" or "Not this again" because simply not participating in this thread would constitute a vote for either of those adequately, in my opinion.

I think it's a good idea in principle. What I doubt is GW's capability to make decent female minis.

I went off topic in the last thread too, but I do feel quite strongly about this. To be honest, I fall into the "no female space marines" camp and I don't think there should be female orks either (as well as what the fluff says - no one really needs to see lady orks!). However, it really is a shame that there is next to no sexual dimorphism in the IG range. There's plenty of Black Library stuff in which guard regiments have a healthy proportion of female soldiers - it might not be 50/50, but it's certainly more than the current model range makes out.

When the last range of inquisitorial models came out, quite a few were female (I remember Inquisitors, acolytes, assassins etc). Despite this being before the lastest Guard update, there were absolutely no female models released for guard at all. Does anyone know if there are even any references to female guard in the codex?

I'm assuming this is all because GW thinks female models don't sell. I must admit, I have no idea whether this is true or not - if it is, then it's at least understandable from a business perspective why there aren't that many female models in the range. It's still a shame though.

I also agree with the no female space marines thing, but for a different reason. We already have female space marines: Sisters of Battle. Granted they aren't true space marines, however they wear the same armor, and use bolters, so they are IMO a great stand in. Even though the current miniature kinda suck, they are still a great alternate to space marines, and I intend on picking some up just for fun.

Okay I admit. I want me some female orks...


There should be female space marines. Heck the two lost chapters could be all female, which is why they were removed from history. HA!

Yeah, female IG and Tau would be welcome. Also, female space marines are a cool and incredibly sexy idea. Just as long as they wore the same amount of power armour as their battle brothers. I want female minis, just not sexist depictions.

i want more female characters in 40k mostly orks because would be fun.

I would personally love some more female firewarriors or other variations of Tau, or Kroot if they have ladies with lady parts or however kroot make babies.

Finally They do not all need to emulate Shadowsuns excessive hair, yes it's cool, but not everyone needs it.

The Dreadnote wrote:I think it's a good idea in principle. What I doubt is GW's capability to make decent female minis.

My thoughts ran along the same lines upon seeing the title for this thread.

Sisters of Battle need to have more added to their lines and be as OP as GK so more people would collect them and you would therefore see a rise in not only female units, but female armies and the like. Also, Dark Eldar have just got a new codex, with a mostly female list (i think), but you don't see much of them (well i don't, anyway). Eldar have some female units, and could do with them coming out in plastic; not only because they're aspect warriors, but also because they are female (howling banshees)

They definately need more female-based miniatures. Alot of the female characters are painfully hard to convert because we only normally get male models outside of a select few (and there's only three sets I know of that has regular plastic female parts, and they have alot of specific aesthetics tied to them, making it unsuited for certain conversions) and male proportions look awkward on what's suppose to be a female (if you have problem imagining this, imagine a body building woman high on steroids. YEAH).

not all armies need them, and marines, in the fluff, have always referred to each other "sir". none of the primarchs were female either.

This reminds me, I wish they'd do an updated version of the female commissar model. Whip it goooooood~

Although I appreciate the reasons why some would want more female minis, war has always been a predominately male affair, and the m:f ration is about right, I think.

So, not all lines should have female model options (necron, space marines, etc.), but I do agree that there could definitely be some gender balancing. DE did a good job with this.

The way GW handles female models is awkward and painful. It's almost like they lost a sexual discrimination lawsuit, and so made an all-lady army as part of the settlement (and then decided to treat it as a second class codex all the same).

Really, they don't even need to add new units, or change the codex, they could just add more model lines.

Of course, there's still so much in the codecies that's NOT had a model made for it yet, so optional female variants will have to get in line.

'not all armies need them, and marines, in the fluff, have always referred to each other "sir". none of the primarchs were female either. '

It's common practise in modern armed forces to refer to a superior as sir, regardless of gender.

Are all the primarchs accounted for? (i'm not up on the black library fluff, because a lot of it is retconned and/or not very good. Some are ok though..)

Who says that some of the Primarchs (a gender neutral term btw) weren't female? We've had a female pope that no-one knew was female at the time, and several famous pirates that everyone assumed were male were female...

My vote would be on sanguinus He's too purty

Fulgrim is a good contender for a possible female primarch, even pre-heresy (the artbook makes him look quite feminine). Same goes for Sanguinus. However the Emperor specifically created them and their gene seed seems to be only male-compatable, so at least all existing primarchs were male (it'd be kinda weird of the gene seeds were all exclusively male compatable, but came from both genders).

It would be nice to see some Tau Females outside of Shadowsun. The model looks quite cute actually (and other models are great opportunities for anime eyes). On the other end of the spectrum, I really, really dont wanna see another Ork Female ever again....

Or that Loli Necron with gauss boobs.....

*goes and takes a keg of brainbleach*

Wow, that's an interesting poll! suprising!

I would love to see female Space Marines but I think GW would do a gak job on them.

A bit more dimorphism in the IG, Eldar (who are actually fairly good for that already) and Tau would be nice. Other than that, seems cool. Not really fussed about fem-marines, it could be cool, but it also has the potential to be done very, very badly.

I'd like to say no because GW's female sculpting abilities are equal to that of a monkey throwing its own poop at a stick and hoping it turns into a masterpiece.

then again there male sculpting is about the same.

The Dreadnote wrote:I think it's a good idea in principle. What I doubt is GW's capability to make decent female minis.

Amen.


Achem: on the issue of femarines.

Personally, I see no reason why not, and before someone screams 'fluff!!!!' and tries to smack me with a printed out copy of lexicanum bound into a bible, hear me out:

Let's look at the real reason that, previously, there have been no female space marines. No, I'm not talking about the extra genetic improbabilities on top the already impossible biology of space marines, I'm talking about grimdark. Female space marines are not grimdark.

Why?

Because it, equality among the super ass kickers, would be a positive thing. Positive things do not exist in 40k (to the degree that one wonders how electricity works) and Space Marines are asexual super soldier psychopaths who have absolutely no recognizable human emotions whatsoever besides rage and the need to kill in the name of their god. They represent the very worst parts of humanity from it's very grimmest period, weaponized.

But, wait, you say, that's changed since x edition! Look at all those nice novels about how honorable and human the space marines are!

Yes, and that brings me to my next point: things have changed. Previously, and this was correct, many people claimed that femarines would undermine how space marines are in fluff. However, thanks to writers such as McNeill, this is no longer the case. Space Marines are now supposed to be noble knights, as seen through the rose tinted soft focus view we all have of chivalry. They are now no longer the asexual inhuman killing machines that they used to be. (And very much not asexual in the case of Space Wolves).

So, you say, what of it? So space marines are now moral and positive beings? And?

Female space marines existing would have 0 impact on this. In fact, it might help it a bit, where the Inquisition and Soroitas (who are still screaming hateful religious fanatics, so far) do not.

But Space marines are supposed to be knight monastic orders and such you say. Where were those in the source material (ie history)?

Historically, all female knightly orders existed, and some where even martial (read: combat oriented) orders.

But fluff says....

Fluff gets re-written by GW on an hourly basis (even when it's not passed off to subcontractors such as FFG). If they figured that they would sell more space marines if they had greenstuff boobs on there, you bet your ass that you'd see femarines on every storeshelf. Saying 'well fluff says' is about as effective against GW editorial fiat as flak armor is against a demolisher cannon. Look at Grey Knights. Or Lamentors. Remember when the Emperor was just some guy, and still alive? Back when squats roamed the the universe?

I've heard that Matt Ward is going to retcon all space marines as being female. This will of course require you to buy all new marine armies, as any male marines will be ruled illegal, and out of fluff.

On a serious note, the OP listed an option for females where "sexual dimorphism is present". As has been mentioned repeatedly, it is not present in marines (anymore), and I don't think he is advocating femarines. I think this is mainly about IG, who more or less are supposed to emulate modern military forces, many regiments being directly influenced by specific armies from Earth's history. In the modern military, almost every army has serving women. The Imperial Guard has 2 women in the last Chancers, 1 in the Catachans, and 1 dressed up as an s&m commisar.
I think if done right, I think female soldiers can be Grimdark. What's Grimdarkier than BOTH parents going off to war, leaving their children to raise themselves, or be raised by a nanny-servitor?

Didnt Lexicanium mention that "standard" guard regiments only get new recruits either from other destroyed regiments, or through the padonkadonk of the parents?

The first one! Yes, I'd love that!

IG, eldar, DE, tau (I think) and maybe Chaos Traitors could all use a couple female sculpts. I'm not sure how they would integrate them into the lines, but it'd be great.

For chaos traitors, I think women could be fit in. The Gods care little for race, apparently. In a couple books I've read, the traitors seem to be both sexes.

Yeah, IG is an equal opportunity employer- everyone gets to die for the Emporer :-)

As to fem marines, why not? We already have sparkly vampire marines, wolfy marines, and Inquisition! marines. Retconning fluff is nothing new (I expect SMs to get LAZORS! in the next edition) and often takes it to ridiculous levels (see any fluff by Matt Ward). Plus, the palpable nerdrage is LOL.

But the models would probably still look like a man.... GW history is pretty fail at sculpting females.

Acardia wrote:I would personally love some more female firewarriors or other variations of Tau, or Kroot if they have ladies with lady parts or however kroot make babies.

Finally They do not all need to emulate Shadowsuns excessive hair, yes it's cool, but not everyone needs it.

lol

Sorry! Meant to join last post.

As for Femarines, I see no reason why you couldn't just use DE or Dark elf heads on regular space marines. It'd be cool.

As long as even Jes Goodwin thinks that men and women share the same hip form (see new Dark Eldar warriors and Wyches), you won't be happy with more female GW models. If someone tells them that men and women actually look different (and not just boobs and a pony-tail), then a new era might begin
Until then we have to beg non-GW manufacturers to produce female conversion bitz and models.

BTW Kroot ladies look practically identical to Kroot males, they just smell different

Female Space Marines can be done really well.



GW would not do them nearly that well.

Ascalam wrote:
It's common practise in modern armed forces to refer to a superior as sir, regardless of gender.

What military is this in?

And I say yes IG, Tau and (Dark)Eldar (though both races have some) as far as the whole fem-marines thing, I could care less, but I see them as being male. The whole geneseed thing, and despite Fulgrim being effeminate, still pretty sure he was male on a chromosomal level.

Though that brings up interesting points such as Intersex, where a child starts to become male in the womb, but due to a bad arm in the Y chromosome, produces zero male hormones (eg testosterone) so the body stops formation of the male organs. Pretty much, the person has the plumbing of a female, it doesn't work right and they carry the XY chromosome. This is a gross over simplification, and for the record no I don't think that's what was intended for Fulgrim, I think he was just a ponce.

I wouldn't have a problem with including more positive female role models and characters, but I have little patience for the Chain Mail Bikini models that are the usual result of this sort of thing.

Look at pictures of soliders in Iraq. Real women don't have 36DD's popping through body armor, nor do their cuirasses (heh, breast plate, heh) have Liefeld-style tits cast into them. They might be a little shorter than dudes and have thinner faces (and fewer beards), but a grunt is a grunt is a grunt.

That's sort of the point of uniforms, to make you look, you know, uniform.

Doctor Optimal wrote:Look at pictures of soliders in Iraq. Real women don't have 36DD's popping through body armor, nor do their cuirasses (heh, breast plate, heh) have Liefeld-style tits cast into them. They might be a little shorter than dudes and have thinner faces (and fewerbeards), but a grunt is a grunt is a grunt.

That's the problem with exaggerated miniatures like GW stuff. They're exaggerated male miniatures. Technically, for a female Cadian, just having a more femenine face should be the only real difference, but that's going to be one butch woman. You need to exaggerate the feminine qualities to make it stand out as a female miniature, which means watermelon sized tits and asses and long, impractical hair if they are wearing armour.

I might point to the god-awful female catachan as an example of one of GW's attempts at female form....

-Loki- has a valid point about exageration. Just compare Catachans to modern soldiers and tell me exageration is only done on females. Catachans don't wear armor either, just instead of showing off large breasts they're displaying their Mr. Universe meat slabs. Female guard Will have to be exagerated to stand out, they just don't necessarily need to be sexualized.

Personally I liked the Phoenix Club's female Cadian armor torsos. Wasn't TOO far from 40k, but also they were visibly female.

I think they should add more female models where appropriate (eg. IG), which is why I voted for the first option.

There is a lot of GW/BL fluff about female IG, female pilots, female commisars, female officers, etc, and yet there are very few models, if any, to represent them.

I know we have the SoB, but as bit more variety would be nice.

With entirely female and half half regiments. It makes sense the guard should have ladies.

BaronIveagh wrote:

The Dreadnote wrote:I think it's a good idea in principle. What I doubt is GW's capability to make decent female minis.

Amen.


Achem: on the issue of femarines.

Personally, I see no reason why not, and before someone screams 'fluff!!!!' and tries to smack me with a printed out copy of lexicanum bound into a bible, hear me out:

Let's look at the real reason that, previously, there have been no female space marines. No, I'm not talking about the extra genetic improbabilities on top the already impossible biology of space marines, I'm talking about grimdark. Female space marines are not grimdark.

Why?

Because it, equality among the super ass kickers, would be a positive thing. Positive things do not exist in 40k (to the degree that one wonders how electricity works) and Space Marines are asexual super soldier psychopaths who have absolutely no recognizable human emotions whatsoever besides rage and the need to kill in the name of their god. They represent the very worst parts of humanity from it's very grimmest period, weaponized.

But, wait, you say, that's changed since x edition! Look at all those nice novels about how honorable and human the space marines are!

Yes, and that brings me to my next point: things have changed. Previously, and this was correct, many people claimed that femarines would undermine how space marines are in fluff. However, thanks to writers such as McNeill, this is no longer the case. Space Marines are now supposed to be noble knights, as seen through the rose tinted soft focus view we all have of chivalry. They are now no longer the asexual inhuman killing machines that they used to be. (And very much not asexual in the case of Space Wolves).

So, you say, what of it? So space marines are now moral and positive beings? And?

Female space marines existing would have 0 impact on this. In fact, it might help it a bit, where the Inquisition and Soroitas (who are still screaming hateful religious fanatics, so far) do not.

But Space marines are supposed to be knight monastic orders and such you say. Where were those in the source material (ie history)?

Historically, all female knightly orders existed, and some where even martial (read: combat oriented) orders.

But fluff says....

Fluff gets re-written by GW on an hourly basis (even when it's not passed off to subcontractors such as FFG). If they figured that they would sell more space marines if they had greenstuff boobs on there, you bet your ass that you'd see femarines on every storeshelf. Saying 'well fluff says' is about as effective against GW editorial fiat as flak armor is against a demolisher cannon. Look at Grey Knights. Or Lamentors. Remember when the Emperor was just some guy, and still alive? Back when squats roamed the the universe?

This. GW is Tzeentch, the lord of change, and they are legion. get used to it. in the Decade I've been playing this game I've seen space vikings start riding wolves, space vampires start dropping tanks out of the sky, and now space marines wearing tactical dreadnaught armor wearing dreadknight armor. your best hope is to go ostrich mode.


and as for the topic, option 1. More females in Guard/Tau. SoB, DE, and Eldar......yourdoingitright. BH out.

I will agree on this thread, although try and keep to reasonable fluff adherence

C:SM, SM, Orks, 'crons, etc do not need female models, fluff is already well established that they are male only.

Eldar need to be brought in line with the DE, in that they really don't care for gender. All IG need are some alternative legs and heads, and all tau need are some alternative bare heads (AFAIK, female tau don't have human-like busts).

nids - GTFO!


Although on a positive side, we don't really have to worry too much about 'anime nipple armour syndrome', I think they scupltors used up the entire supply on the recent BA line!

Wow, half way through page two and no one has posted the Orc Cheerleader...

I think the problem with GW and female figures is based on two things; historically their female sculpts have been of very variable quality and secondly their core market of younger players are mainly into 'kewl' stuff with lots of crash-bang-whallop with tough dudes in big armour and guns and moar-dakka, they are not interested in female figures, their inclusion into the range either bores or embarrasses them.

Howard A Treesong wrote:Wow, half way through page two and no one has posted the Orc Cheerleader...

I think the problem with GW and female figures is based on two things; historically their female sculpts have been of very variable quality and secondly their core market of younger players are mainly into 'kewl' stuff with lots of crash-bang-whallop with tough dudes in big armour and guns and moar-dakka, they are not interested in female figures, their inclusion into the range either bores or embarrasses them.

The problem there is the demographic of that core market is changing. Locally, we've seen more and more of these strange creatures entering the game stores. They have oddly shaped bodies and smell of soap and water.

I would suggest that tastefully done female minis would sell quite well to this emerging demographic. Particularly the ones that have me sculpting/modding them one by one anyway. (Since I know nothing of resin molding)

'C:SM, SM, Orks, 'crons, etc do not need female models, fluff is already well established that they are male only. '

SM and CSM i might agree on, though i see no reason why (besides some very dodgy fluff) you couldn't have female marines. They're not necessary, but neither are they outlawed, in my book.

Orks are gender-neutral, not male (though they do act very laddish.

Necrontyr were male or female , before their conversion into cybermen (erm i mean necrons ) The whoe race was converted, so both genders were made into Necrons.

All are now gender neutral physically, being metal skeletons, and most are mindless automata.

Some, however, retain their minds, and i see no reason why that wouldn't include a sense of gender. One of my two destroyer lords is/was a Necrontyr noblewoman pre-conversion.

Nids are a tougher one. Hormagaunts can breed, so some must therefore be female, and the tervigon and dominatrix definitely are. The others? Hard to tell


' I need a volunteer to check the gender of that Trygon'

'Are you fething crazy?... Sir...'

Nids breeding cold just be some sort of asexual breeding like a plant. I would like to see more female models thu just for variety.

Chaos could get cultists SM.

As for female space marines I dont know my fluff so i am completly lost when people state no female space marines it is simply a case of women not getting geneseed implants or are they is geneseed implant not taking do to the lack of the y chromosome?

BaronIveagh wrote:I would suggest that tastefully done female minis would sell quite well to this emerging demographic. Particularly the ones that have me sculpting/modding them one by one anyway. (Since I know nothing of resin molding)

There are quite a few female modellers and gamers out there but their interests tend to differ to that of the average teenage boy. My wife likes Reaper and Hasslefree Miniatures particularly for their female characters. GW do very little to target a female market, it's not deliberate as such, I think they just overlook them.

Howard A Treesong wrote:

BaronIveagh wrote:I would suggest that tastefully done female minis would sell quite well to this emerging demographic. Particularly the ones that have me sculpting/modding them one by one anyway. (Since I know nothing of resin molding)

There are quite a few female modellers and gamers out there but their interests tend to differ to that of the average teenage boy. My wife likes Reaper and Hasslefree Miniatures particularly for their female characters. GW do very little to target a female market, it's not deliberate as such, I think they just overlook them.

Depending on what the new Sisters of Battle look like, my wife may actually start playing Warhammer 40K. She was halfway tempted to when Dark Eldar came out, but thought it would be too much of a hassle to trade out male parts for female parts.

Lord Scythican wrote:

Howard A Treesong wrote:

BaronIveagh wrote:I would suggest that tastefully done female minis would sell quite well to this emerging demographic. Particularly the ones that have me sculpting/modding them one by one anyway. (Since I know nothing of resin molding)

There are quite a few female modellers and gamers out there but their interests tend to differ to that of the average teenage boy. My wife likes Reaper and Hasslefree Miniatures particularly for their female characters. GW do very little to target a female market, it's not deliberate as such, I think they just overlook them.

Depending on what the new Sisters of Battle look like, my wife may actually start playing Warhammer 40K. She was halfway tempted to when Dark Eldar came out, but thought it would be too much of a hassle to trade out male parts for female parts.

Funny, my reason for not doing a Dark Eldar force is how much of a hassle it would be trading the female bits for male ones

I say Put female only where they need to be, in like gaurd or tau, But not in like orks, nids or MEQ.

another thing if GW can sucesfully sculpt nice Female models that dont look like pornstars but still can identifide as female.

I've long been an advocate of more female models, especially in the Imperial Guard range.

On a brief side note, to me thats probably one of the more painful loses associated with Specialist Games. As by now Necromunda gangs would probably be plastic, and Escher would allow for all kinds of conversions.

Getting back to the subject though, most of the races should have a higher female percentage. (obviously not Orks or Marines as it stands, although I do remember the female Orc Blood Bowl Cheerleader fondly. ) I think at the moment only Dark Eldar are close enough to accurate numbers.

Hell I think it can go both ways as well, I want a male Howling Banshee, the fluff says they exist, I'd love to see one, but perhaps thats just me.

Getting back to my rambling, I do think that sadly the main reason this is not the case, is up until this point, no one at GW has had the confidence to sulpt female models to any degree.
Juan Diaz is the best at the moment, he needs to be doing more in my book, Chris Fitzpatrick was good before him.
Other than those two, most of the other sculpters have seemed to seriously struggle with the female form.

I hope it changes, I'd love to see a plastic 'female' Guard kit one day, even if it was based on Cadians, just to have more options.
However, the female gangers of the Spiders, or the amazon regiment in the old Guard book would be better.

So yes, I would like more female models in GW's range.

Only if they make them look really hot and allow it so you can take their clothes off.

And make pregnant models and the next vehicle they bring out should be a mobile battlefield employment tribunal so that said pregnant models can take their employer to court for not giving them maternity leave.

GW should also make gay marines and marines in wheelchairs and all vehicles and buildings should have wheelchair access. GW should also make protestor models who can stand at the side of the battlefield protesting against war.

And there should be an independent body set up to inquire into the war and see how cost effective it is and whether the geneva convention rules have been contravened in any way. This body should be represented by a new line of models by GW.

Seriously, though, especially with marines, you could just say they are women if you wanted to since it's unlikely that SM armour would be moulded into a female shape - men and women would just wear the same armour. That being the case, if GW wanted to make a concerted effort to give Space Marines a female presence, then you would have to model some feminine looking armour in which case, look at the picture that loki posted. That's how female marines should look and if they did make them, I would buy some because, under THAT armour, you just know she's hot! Because really, that's what it boils down to.

Dreads are Marines in wheelchairs

Also, you're either very immature or deliberatly being insulting

I've seen female marine armies that aren't pink with greenstuffed breastplates. There is no reason to change the look of marines to make them girly (i agree with you there).

You should be able to tell from the faces (if they don't have a helmet on) but GW seems only able to do angry and bald or butch with a pageboy haircut...

There's so much tech and padding between the flesh and the outside of a marine suit that it wouldn't be hard to fit a woman in it just as easily, and since the hip proportions on the models would leave a male screaming in agony if they were real wider hips would be a plus

Most gamers with female-marines i've run into paint them in the same colours as the rest. The split on fem-marine players is about 50/50 male/female that i've encounted, and none of them feel obligated to model them barefoot and pregnant, or with handbags and pink armour...

Pink necrons with hello kitty OTOH .. what's with that

A few female characters (with fluff that says they're female, but doesn't insult femininity doing it) would be a good way to include female marines. Have them just as badass as the men (female soldiers are, at least the ones i've met ) and don't try to get cute with rules like 'red rage' or so on.

Basically not acting like a 13 year old when writing fluff or rules (looking at you Ward) Women are out there. Some play this game too. Not insulting them means they might just stick around ...

Nah, I was just trying to have a laugh. Personally, it wouldn't make any difference to me if they had female marines in girly shaped armour - look at howling banshees, I think they look cool. In fact, I quite like that svelte, delicate look and if they did produce female marines that looked like the picture loki posted, I'd probably buy some to add variety. I wouldn't replace loads of my troops with them, though and I certainly wouldn't buy an army just because they were female.

No Female marines as the fluff forbids it.


that said, Guard having female heads would be nice.

the same ratio as in the DE range would be fitting.


all it would require would be a slight redesign of the Guard sprue to make maybe 1/3 of the heads female.


the rest of the body could be identicle. perhaps some slightly slimmer torsos(barely noticible)

Well, here's my feeling. I'd like to see females of every race that has both males and females, include Space Marines. "The fluff forbids it" is pretty weak sauce, imo, since the fluff is malleable. Every single codex rewrites fluff. It's not like the fluff was laid down from on high never to be altered. I also kinda doubt GWS could do a good job with it, though, but who knows; I'd like to see. My vision of this would be, essentially, female heads. No giant boob chestplates. For IG, essentially the same thing for cadians. For catachans tank tops and wifebeaters make a little more sense since the males also wear little to no torso clothing.


I'd probably skip female Orks, since Orks technically aren't male, anyway. Same for Nids, Necrons, etc. Ascalaon hit the nail on the head regarding Necrons; in that many of them technicially are female already.

No. 40k is not meant for pushup bras and makeup and form fitting thigh hugging power armor, it is meant for dudes.. ugly... muscley... dudes. stupid warmongering oafs with veins popping out of their heads and guns with barrels as wide as their fists. The avon lady would not fit in, nor the victorias secret skank. laughed at, raped, cast aside, because in the grim darkness of the future that girls, as a whole, are not made to argue about feminism and equality in mud and blood soaked trenches with drooling madmen.

I will accept 'girls in the 40k universe' as a premise when said girls are big, fat, and butch as hell instead of musculature-showing ab models with enhanced boobs in skimpy outfits and thigh high dominatrix boots that for some reason confer the same save as hulking armor plates the size of a car hood.

Geneseed is consistantly stated as being matched to the Y chromosome, meaning it would be impossable to have a female space marine.

the Geneseed would simply fail to activate, or the unfortunante girl would begin to basically change her sex. if the hormone influx didn't kill her first.

Guitardian wrote:No. 40k is not meant for pushup bras and makeup and form fitting thigh hugging power armor, it is meant for dudes.. ugly... muscley... dudes. stupid warmongering oafs with veins popping out of their heads and guns with barrels as wide as their fists. The avon lady would not fit in, nor the victorias secret skank. laughed at, raped, cast aside, because in the grim darkness of the future that girls, as a whole, are not made to argue about feminism and equality in mud and blood soaked trenches with drooling madmen.

I will accept 'girls in the 40k universe' as a premise when said girls are big, fat, and butch as hell instead of musculature-showing ab models with enhanced boobs in skimpy outfits and thigh high dominatrix boots that for some reason confer the same save as hulking armor plates the size of a car hood.

I might point out that according to fluff Colonel Regina Kasteen of the Valhallen 597th is not only a excellent officer, but has a nice ass. This is stated as fact. In fluff. And actually she does that 'argue about feminism and equality in mud and blood soaked trenches with drooling madmen' thing. Against orks, necrons, chaos, and genestealers. In Fluff. Put that in your 40k chauvinism and smoke it.

Grey Templar wrote:Geneseed is consistantly stated as being matched to the Y chromosome, meaning it would be impossable to have a female space marine.

the Geneseed would simply fail to activate, or the unfortunante girl would begin to basically change her sex. if the hormone influx didn't kill her first.

Incorrect. The geneseed is *not* match to the y chromosome in fluff, but rather to the more vague 'male tissue types'. The fluff makes vague references to hormones and prepubescent males, but if this neophyte is prepubescent, I'm a frakking ork:




So frankly one should take anything to do with the geneseed in fluff with a grain of salt.

No one has yet mentioned the Echer Gangers from necromunda.

I think more ladies could be present. It is entirely possable that whole regiments of Female IG exist under the Echer senario. There could be a planet with kind of 'abhuman' mutation where males are born inherently weaker then their female counterparts. On the subject of Abhumans what about female Ogryns and Ratlings.

Craft world eldar should have a more or less 50/50 mix like the Dark Eldar.

Tau, do we even know if the Tau have mammary glands? The only diffrence that we know of is their face is slightly rounder. So essentially any number of Fire Warriors could be Female under those helmets.

My friends who is obsessed with hentai and porn would say yes to female space marines cause they need to be horny while playing(but he doesn't even play, he doesn't even know crap about the fluff but he acts like he does which really pisses me off, he even said the models were a waste of money compared to gundam models)

all in all, NO to female space marines

and an absolute NO to that infamous carmella dance space marine anime girl


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Ouze wrote:Well, here's my feeling. I'd like to see females of every race that has both males and females, include Space Marines. "The fluff forbids it" is pretty weak sauce, imo, since the fluff is malleable. Every single codex rewrites fluff. It's not like the fluff was laid down from on high never to be altered. I also kinda doubt GWS could do a good job with it, though, but who knows; I'd like to see. My vision of this would be, essentially, female heads. No giant boob chestplates. For IG, essentially the same thing for cadians. For catachans tank tops and wifebeaters make a little more sense since the males also wear little to no torso clothing.


I'd probably skip female Orks, since Orks technically aren't male, anyway. Same for Nids, Necrons, etc. Ascalaon hit the nail on the head regarding Necrons; in that many of them technicially are female already.

There are some things in the fluff that are not malleable(for example grey knights cannot go chaos) and if females are given a male gene seed, wouldn't that make them transvestites

Ascalam wrote:'C:SM, SM, Orks, 'crons, etc do not need female models, fluff is already well established that they are male only. '

SM and CSM i might agree on, though i see no reason why (besides some very dodgy fluff) you couldn't have female marines. They're not necessary, but neither are they outlawed, in my book.

Orks are gender-neutral, not male (though they do act very laddish.

Necrontyr were male or female , before their conversion into cybermen (erm i mean necrons ) The whoe race was converted, so both genders were made into Necrons.

All are now gender neutral physically, being metal skeletons, and most are mindless automata.

Some, however, retain their minds, and i see no reason why that wouldn't include a sense of gender. One of my two destroyer lords is/was a Necrontyr noblewoman pre-conversion.

Nids are a tougher one. Hormagaunts can breed, so some must therefore be female, and the tervigon and dominatrix definitely are. The others? Hard to tell

' I need a volunteer to check the gender of that Trygon'

'Are you fething crazy?... Sir...'

Nids are more-or-less gender neutral, they do reproduce (more or less) naturally with uterus-like growing vats/cocoons aboard the hive ships pre-invasion, but I don't think they actually 'do it like on the discovery channel', it's more 'here is a bunch of DNA, shove it in that cocoon over there, ooh look a broodlord!

'Crons, personality and mannerisms possibly, but physically no, I think star gods have better things to do with their time to create conversion kits for their armies of robots so the female soulless automata can feel more feminine


'Yes soldier, just go over there, pull it's legs apart and hang it upside-down, like an iguana!'

It really shouldn't come as this much of a surprise to me that when someone asks "should there be female models for imperial guard and tau?" you immediately get a crowd of people shouting "no female space marines!"

In the cain books he leads a mixed regiment and they join up with the remnants of a female armored regiment.

Cadians make sense as they wouldn't put that much manpower to waste on a fortress world. Although ive never seen or heard mention of a female cadian.

But i have never, ever heard mention of. Or seen a picture of a female catachan. And the thought is a bit disturbing.

Like I said before, there are two Space Marine legions that are missing and deleted from Imperial records. Who's to say they weren't all female? Honestly some of the female marine haters sound like people that would have deleted the records. Even in the 41st century they are still hating on female marines.

Ma55ter_fett wrote:

The Dreadnote wrote:I think it's a good idea in principle. What I doubt is GW's capability to make decent female minis.

My thoughts ran along the same lines upon seeing the title for this thread.

Have you seen the new Wyches? They've given me hope for some decent female models.

cyrax777 wrote:Nids breeding cold just be some sort of asexual breeding like a plant. I would like to see more female models thu just for variety.

Chaos could get cultists SM.

As for female space marines I dont know my fluff so i am completly lost when people state no female space marines it is simply a case of women not getting geneseed implants or are they is geneseed implant not taking do to the lack of the y chromosome?

Many plants have sexual reproduction.

The current fluff states that the geneseed implants are incompatible with female physiology.

Scientifically this is nonsense, of course. It is merely a convenient excuse not to make any female Space Marines.

The two missing Primarchs and the general nature of fluff mean that GW could introduce female SMs if they wanted to. However it would require the timeline to be advanced, which is unlikely to happen.

Kilkrazy wrote:
The current fluff states that the geneseed implants are incompatible with female physiology.

Deleted info from history could say differently...but just like you said, it is a convenient excuse.

Kilkrazy wrote:
The two missing Primarchs and the general nature of fluff mean that GW could introduce female SMs if they wanted to. However it would require the timeline to be advanced, which is unlikely to happen.

But that doesn't stop people from using the two missing legions in whatever way they choose right? There is enough room in the fluff to say there would be female marines. Just having information "deleted" is enough for me. Who's to say what that info was?

They have never provided a decent reason why they were deleted anyways. If it was because of chaos then they would have been along the lines of Death Guard, etc. Like I said before, the dislike of the mention of female marines sounds awfully similar to someone deleted info about the lost legions.

it would require a complete fluff overhaul for GW to introduce female marines.


Besides, in the HH books they do make reference to the missing primarchs and it is always as referring to a brother.

the only way you could get Female marines would be to have a Female Primarch so thats kinda out the window.




and why do people want female space marines anyway? it can't be for the looks because, unlike all those disgusting anime drawings, a Female that was genehanced and altered for war would probably end up looking like those female body builders(IE: no female physique or shape left)

Grey Templar wrote:a Female that was genehanced and altered for war would probably end up looking like those female body builders(IE: no female physique or shape left)

The 'Good'
The Bad
The you-gee-el-why, you ain't got no alibi...

Personally, I think GW completely Whiffed on the fluff for orks. They are basically mycota spores that turn into a living breathing organism? I have never read an ork codex, but someone is going to have to explain to me how a plant cell becomes and animal cell. And if they dont reproduce, why do they have nips? There is/was a key moment where GW could have incorporated more women models (those being orks) into their lineup, instead they opted for the worst background of any army. Spores...what a joke. I think they should leave it as it is. If they want to cater to people that want to field a female army option, they desperately need to update the SOB. When you think about it less than 1 out of every 10 players is female, so why would we need more than 10% of the army's to be of female orientation>? If you have interest in starting a female army you still have the choices of both eldar armys. This is not intended to be sexist in anyway (though im sure its about to be quoted and rebuttled several times on here), but wouldnt female IG in some way detract from the toughness of the army?

look up how Jellyfish reproduce. it's, different


as to orks,

Orks are a sentient fungus/plant organisim.

their body has both Plant and Fungal characteristics.


the orkoid species has many different biomorphs although all are members of the same species.

When an Orkoid dies, defacates, and at regular intervals, it's body releases spores.


these spores have the possability of containing the genetic potential to grow into any number of different orkoids(determined at time of shedding)

the spore could grow into simply the type of Fungus which forms the basis of the Orkoid food chain(orks are indeed canniblistic)

the Spore could grow into a Snotling, Grot, Squig, or an ork.

if it's an ork, it could inturn become any one of the subtypes of ork. it could be a normal ork(which leads to Warbosses and Nobs with growth), a Big Mek, a Painboy, or a Wierd boy.


think of these ork divisions as similer to the sex of a human child.

in any mixing of genes, there is a chance of the baby being male or female.

replace Male and Female with Fungus, Snotling, Grot, Squig, and Ork and you will be getting the picture.


Orks are similer to mushrooms, but not exactly.

Orks are their own species that is totally unrelated to any terran. it shares some similer characteristics to many terran species(and some combinations that don't appear on earth like a mobile plant that eats other organisims)


they are utterly alien in mind and form.

'Fear the Alien'

Personally I'd say yes to IG, Tau and both kinds of Eldar

But Orks would just be disturbing, I'm on the fence with fem-Marines though, on one side it would be against fluff, but on the other side I like the idea, and GW has no problem re-writing fluff anyway (see the Jokerao for further details on that)

And obviously female Kroot, Tyranids and Necrons are pretty much an impossibility given theirs very little gender distinction right there

But I still think GW would struggle to make good female models

BaronIveagh wrote:

I predict either A: a gay shower scene
or B: YMCA tribute band being formed

since its marines its probably 1.

Grey Templar wrote:
and why do people want female space marines anyway? it can't be for the looks because, unlike all those disgusting anime drawings, a Female that was genehanced and altered for war would probably end up looking like those female body builders(IE: no female physique or shape left)

I used to love watching American Gladiators when I was a kid. Those female body builders were hot!


Besides I would rather see a woman with muscles than a dude with muscles. That is why Iron Man Magazine has that 20 page spread in the back. Otherwise you would see nothing but a slong fest.

See that's the problem right there. If you include female warriors, the expectation for them is to be "hot". Well there's nothing grim and dark about chicks who need to look "hot". If the female guard were depicted in the same kind of slightly baggy uniforms as the males, they could be taken seriously. Pictures of dirty, ugly 3rd world women with AK47s come to mind for a woman in 40k, not models with form fitting outfits and unlikely proportions and long feminine hair. So one notable IG colonel has a "nice ass" in the books, thats a colonel, one person, an exception, not the rest of the walmart shoppers given guns that an all-female IG regiment would resemble. Why does the Calidus assassin still have a rack? With all the bio modification on assassins you'd think they would have removed them from getting in the way. But again, nerdy gamer guys expect a warrior girl to be hot, not to make sense.

@Grey Templar

Thanks for such an elaborate explanation about orks. It sort of puts things into perspective, even though having a collegiate background in biology, I still cant wrap my head around the whole sporation into animate being. Im still confused about the necessity of nipples on orks though I guess everything doesnt have to be completely logical, after all its only a game.

Guitardian wrote:See that's the problem right there. If you include female warriors, the expectation for them is to be "hot". Well there's nothing grim and dark about chicks who need to look "hot". If the female guard were depicted in the same kind of slightly baggy uniforms as the males, they could be taken seriously. Pictures of dirty, ugly 3rd world women with AK47s come to mind for a woman in 40k, not models with form fitting outfits and unlikely proportions and long feminine hair. So one notable IG colonel has a "nice ass" in the books, thats a colonel, one person, an exception, not the rest of the walmart shoppers given guns that an all-female IG regiment would resemble.

Its not a problem for me. People seem so touchy about their grim dark toy soldiers. You don't have to be ugly to be grim dark.

I would like to see more female eldar, as it fits with their background that eldar warriors are equally likely to be male as female. I always assumed that there were none (that I could see) because to outsiders they look fairly androgonous.

prefer no additional female models except where they already are.. like DE and sob

Somebody brought up an interesting point.. If we're going to have female space marines, then let's have gay ones.. These are dudes on the battlefield all by themselves.. there's probably lots of gay ones. By the way, if we're going to start representing women, how come there's no minority space marines? The facial structure doesn't look like any of the minority races to me.

New marine chapter: Gay Pride. All units have a lithp and ride unicorns into battle. (not meant to offend anyone).

Element206 wrote:@Grey Templar

Thanks for such an elaborate explanation about orks. It sort of puts things into perspective, even though having a collegiate background in biology, I still cant wrap my head around the whole sporation into animate being. Im still confused about the necessity of nipples on orks though I guess everything doesnt have to be completely logical, after all its only a game.

I still can't find the supposed ork nipples on any model.


We could chalk it up to those models being sculpted before GW finilized the current fluff.

Tinsil wrote:Somebody brought up an interesting point.. If we're going to have female space marines, then let's have gay ones.. These are dudes on the battlefield all by themselves.. there's probably lots of gay ones. By the way, if we're going to start representing women, how come there's no minority space marines? The facial structure doesn't look like any of the minority races to me.

One word.... eugenics....

(venturing into dangerous territory here )

But I've seen marines painted with different skin tones. I don't think GW models are details enough to show facial structure between various ethnicities.

Tinsil wrote:
Somebody brought up an interesting point.. If we're going to have female space marines, then let's have gay ones.. These are dudes on the battlefield all by themselves.. there's probably lots of gay ones. By the way, if we're going to start representing women, how come there's no minority space marines? The facial structure doesn't look like any of the minority races to me.

New marine chapter: Gay Pride. All units have a lithp and ride unicorns into battle. (not meant to offend anyone).

1st off, GW actually had a Chapter called the Rainbow Warriors back in the RT days.

the basic story was -[records deleted by the Inquisition]- and so they were purged and are no more.



Marines are genetically enhanced to be the perfect warriors.

they also have the genes of their primarch. Marines tend to look like their primarch.


Space Wolves are hairy, burly dudes.

Salamanders have the Onyx black(not dark brown, Black) skin of Vulkan(a result of the radiation levels on Nocturne)

Raven Guard have the pale skin and Dark Hair of Corax.

the Blood Angels have the fair complexion and obsession with perfection in all things that Sanguinious had.

the Ultramarines have the Pratrician features of Roboute.

and so on.



besides, in the 41st millenium, there arn't different races present in Mankind.

you are human, no one cares what your skin color is or how your face is shaped.


Stop mukking about and go kill some Xenos.

Tinsil wrote:prefer no additional female models except where they already are.. like DE and sob

Somebody brought up an interesting point.. If we're going to have female space marines, then let's have gay ones.. These are dudes on the battlefield all by themselves.. there's probably lots of gay ones. By the way, if we're going to start representing women, how come there's no minority space marines? The facial structure doesn't look like any of the minority races to me.

New marine chapter: Gay Pride. All units have a lithp and ride unicorns into battle. (not meant to offend anyone).

There are no minorities because in the future we will all be a part of one big Melting Pot.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Melting_pot

I dunno, what with the huge sprawling imperium, there's got be vast array of planets with different climates, and humans who have adapted to each individual one. I think in this future there would be more racial diversity, not less.

Nice explanation Grey Templar, although it sadly does not lesson my absolute disgust of that fluff ever since they changed it a couple of Codex's back.

I always thought the idea of a female Orc interesting, especially as she'd be able to pick up the average Guardsman and throw him back over the Leman Russ he'd charged around.

Although probably slightly over the top body shape wise, I am a big fan or the female Orcs in WoW.

'wouldnt female IG in some way detract from the toughness of the army? '

Women are tougher than men. It takes more work to buff up a woman, though many manage it, as the muscle groups are set up differently, but toughness is not buffness..

If every man tried to squeeze something the size of a melon through an opening the size of a lemon, accounting for it having to do a half-gainer part way through, for several hours, we'd get tless of these 'women are weak' kneejerk responses.

Also, this is a setting where Big E can heal a machine by touch and Marines can somehow come with more options than a swiss army knife, biologically. It's surely not beyond the realms of possbility to make a Black Carapace that workd with women (barring the inherent sexism the gamer culture is still hanging on to...)

We'd probably get more female gamers (about 50/50 where i play) if we didn't keep declaring that all races but pretty or spiky space elves are automatically male

As to orks, i'm ok with genered or gender-neutral,but at present fluff says they're gender neutral. Fluff changes, often for no reason. Squigs used to be tyranids too..

I think a unit of all female 'ard girlz might be fun though

I am not saying that some of the implants wouldn't work.


the black carapace would work, but the main issue is that its the Geneseed that makes a marine a marine.

the Geneseed, currently, doesn't work with a female host.


without the host being abe to accept geneseed there isn't the capability to create new organs.


Geneseed, when removed, is used to create 2 new sets of implants(including 2 new Progenoids)

without the ability to place Geneseed in a female, Space Marine chapters would be throwing away the ability to create new marines.




Space Marines are an ONLY male army. deal with it.


you don't hear people complaining about SoB being an all female army do you?


having female space marines would destroy the integrity of the game.

I'm fine with marines being male, by and large, but i'm also pro-choice on the idea of making female ones. If they can come up with the genetic tomfoolery to make marines, they can adapt it as easily. We'll agree to disagree on that.

My main objection on the point is the reaction as follows:

'but ..but.. but ... we already gave them the Eldar and Sisters...

Keep them away from my marines!'

(and yes, I have heard people claim that the Witch-hunters ought to be an all male list, and citing dodgy fluff and dodgier sexism to 'prove' it :(

Why, exactly, would having female Space Marines destroy the integrity of the game?

I think it all depends of if GW wants to add more females to their customer base.

I would love more female (well sculpted models)

BUT I prefer the Space Marines (also known as "battle brothers" - or am I remembering wrong?) to remain male.

I would prefer for the Sisters of Battle to remain female.
I think the models, while metal, still look both good and feminine. Unlike femarines, they would have a reason to retain their feminine shape in power armor (so in the dark of war, they could tell who their allies are).

I think if we had plastic SOB we would probably not have as much chatter about femarines.

I hate when they drastically change the fluff, space marines being battle brothers is something I hope they can stick too.

About orcs, I love their fungoid background, now my background is in zoology, not mycology, but I remember that some fungi are mildly mobile - I remember seeing an electron microscope image of a fungal organism that had caught a nematode (round worm) for eating. SO moble Fungoid creatures have some validity . . .(I'm stretching logic here, huh?)

Grey Templar wrote:and why do people want female space marines anyway?

This is a multipart answer.

1.) Because it's 2011, and the ratio of genders and skin tones in the game no longer jibes with reality. I enjoy my sci-fi best when it's grounded in reality. I am willing to suspend disbelief at some things - that the most elite troops in the future can tear open tanks with a sword coated in a force-field, for example - but that a faction wholly dedicated to solving problems by throwing warm bodies on it would not use 50% of their available resources because they don't have the right junk is a bridge too far for me. It simply doesn't make any freaking sense, at all. Most modern armies NOW have females fighting, and it seems unlikely that the vast majority of fighting forces on Terra will have females fighting in frontline combat in 100 years, let alone 40,000.

100 years ago, women won the vote. 3 years ago, a woman was considered to be a viable candidate for the president of the united states. I don't want to play a game that tells half of it's potential customers "Little girl, when you grow up, you can be anything you want, even president, if you try hard enough. But never, ever a space marine, even 40,000 years from now, because of fake science."

2.) Fluff is malleable. Saying a made-up organ that is poorly developed in a murky backstory that is a hair's breadth from "a wizard did it" prevents this is patently ridiculous in my opinion.

3.) Because the fact there are not females represented in 40k nearly at all forces you to wonder why, and the rationale that answers it best is, most likely, that it's because GWS sees it's core demographic as young boys who still find girls to be gross. When I see it that way, I'm a little embarrassed to play the game as a grown man.

4.) Because when I was a kid, one of the first action movies I ever saw was Aliens. Ripley, to me, was what a heroine should be. It resonated with me. I'd like to see more of that.

Grey Templar wrote:having female space marines would destroy the integrity of the game.

Wow. Maybe the question you should be asking is, why do YOU feel so threatened by the idea of female toy soldiers in a made up universe?

Ouze wrote:

Grey Templar wrote:and why do people want female space marines anyway?

This is a multipart answer.

1.) Because it's 2011, and the ratio of genders and skin tones in the game no longer jibes with reality. I enjoy my sci-fi best when it's grounded in reality. I am willing to suspend disbelief at some things - that the most elite troops in the future can tear open tanks with a sword coated in a force-field, for example - but that a faction wholly dedicated to solving problems by throwing warm bodies on it would not use 50% of their available resources because they don't have the right junk is a bridge too far for me. It simply doesn't make any freaking sense, at all. Most modern armies NOW have females fighting, and it seems unlikely that the vast majority of fighting forces on Terra will have females fighting in frontline combat in 100 years, let alone 40,000.

100 years ago, women won the vote. 3 years ago, a woman was considered to be a viable candidate for the president of the united states. I don't want to play a game that tells half of it's potential customers "Little girl, when you grow up, you can be anything you want, even president, if you try hard enough. But never, ever a space marine, even 40,000 years from now, because of fake science."

2.) Fluff is malleable. Saying a made-up organ that is poorly developed in a murky backstory that is a hair's breadth from "a wizard did it" prevents this is patently ridiculous in my opinion.

3.) Because the fact there are not females represented in 40k nearly at all forces you to wonder why, and the rationale that answers it best is, most likely, that it's because GWS sees it's core demographic as young boys who still find girls to be gross. When I see it that way, I'm a little embarrassed to play the game as a grown man.

4.) Because when I was a kid, one of the first action movies I ever saw was Aliens. Ripley, to me, was what a heroine should be. It resonated with me. I'd like to see more of that.

Grey Templar wrote:having female space marines would destroy the integrity of the game.

Wow. Maybe the question you should be asking is, why do YOU feel so threatened by the idea of female toy soldiers in a made up universe?

10 points to you, sir.

I've always thought the Space Marines are men argument to be dumb. If they can genetically mess with a human that much, you are telling me the sex of the subject really matters? A space marine isn't that human by the time they are done anyway.

....and if you had female marines maybe we would have less issue with the chaplains going on expeditions with scouts. Yep...I went there.

i have no problem with Female IG or female anything else, with the exception of Female Space Marines.-

the issue i have with Female Marines is that it goes COMPLETELY against the established fluff i have come to love(which has all other organizations having female fighters, except orks for obvious reasons)


if they changed such a foundational fluff bit it would basically change the game's background copmpletely, and for what? just so the game doesn't appear sexist?

I would have a problem with male sisters(brothers?) of battle because the fluff is that the Ecclesiarchy was forbidden from maintaining Men at Arms. the Ecclesiarchy cleverly got around this by having an all female force.



GW has written some very nice fluff. if they alter it because of a percieved gender bias then it's clear that the game has lost integrity. the integrity of staying true to the core of the established fluff.

the Fluff is fine at it's very base and doesn't need an overhaul of this magnitude.

Just thought I'd point out that, besides from the fact that GW is BS-ing us with fake science, I really doubt that a woman in power armor would look different. It's a giant suit of armor; it's not form fitting for the men in the suits (I don't think genetic enhancements create giant shoulders), so why would it be for a woman in it? (answer: GW panders to immature perverts).
It wouldn't be that hard to make fem marine models; you'd just need one or two un-helmeted heads, and then rewrite one paragraph at most of the current fluff. Big whoop.

Is that little piece of trivia really that important? With all the things that GW has retconned and rewrote, does it really matter if the person behind the helmet has 2 X chromosomes?

Grey Templar wrote:iGW has written some very nice fluff. if they alter it because of a percieved gender bias then it's clear that the game has lost integrity. the integrity of staying true to the core of the established fluff.

the Fluff is fine at it's very base and doesn't need an overhaul of this magnitude.

Well, I respect your opinion, but I disagree with you. I think they've shown their wllingness to tinker with core concepts from the first book would preclude a ironbound fluff based argument, but that's, just, like my opinion, man. Deep striking land raiders, orange apes, space vampires, entire factions added and removed...

to be fair, the orange apes have been around since the beginning and a Thunderhawk Transporter hot dropping a LR isn't beyond belife(we paradrop tanks nowdays)

But still, there is no "holy book" enshrined at GW's headquarters that says "This is the fluff, and it shall not be changed. Let this be the stone foundation of many a great story".

GW frequently rewrites and adds or subtracts ridiculous things at their whims. There is no sacred text, no enshrined Rouge Trader book that cannot be changed.

Grey Templar wrote:i have no problem with Female IG or female anything else, with the exception of Female Space Marines.-

the issue i have with Female Marines is that it goes COMPLETELY against the established fluff i have come to love(which has all other organizations having female fighters, except orks for obvious reasons)


if they changed such a foundational fluff bit it would basically change the game's background copmpletely, and for what? just so the game doesn't appear sexist?

I would have a problem with male sisters(brothers?) of battle because the fluff is that the Ecclesiarchy was forbidden from maintaining Men at Arms. the Ecclesiarchy cleverly got around this by having an all female force.



GW has written some very nice fluff. if they alter it because of a percieved gender bias then it's clear that the game has lost integrity. the integrity of staying true to the core of the established fluff.

the Fluff is fine at it's very base and doesn't need an overhaul of this magnitude.

Um, Grey Templar, in what way has GW stayed true to established fluff? Are Space Marines still criminals serving a life sentence to serve a living Emperor with Imperial Gaurdsmen serving aside their beastmen colleges? What ever happened to all those funny short abhumans with beards that built the Imperium's Titans and other extremely large vehicles such as the Leviathan command vehicle?

Has anyone seen a Zoat lately?

I hate to say it, but GW totally tosses out their fluff every time they write a new codex. Look at Blood Angels. Or Grey Knights. Or even IG with it's vanishing and reappearing vehicles. "Vanquishers don't exist!' 'No, wait, they do!' 'No, wait, they don't!' 'No, wait, yes they do again because we want to make a plastic kit!'

Or how about that IG hovertank or the hoverbike commissar?


Never mind that the geneseed is a biological impossibility that could only function if it was powered by the warp. How does it grow just fine in admech tankgrown slaves regardless of gender, but not in space marine candidates regardless of gender?

Grey Templar wrote:to be fair, the orange apes have been around since the beginning

So has the imperium recruiting females.

From Rogue Trader:

I never said the imperium ever had a point where the army was exclusivly male.



it is true that GW hasn't always had the same fluff. there was a reason for that, the fluff was kinda awful in parts and abit Cliche.


GW moved away from the "Fantesy in space" feeling because it was the right thing to do.

hence they axed the Squats and had the Zoats become extinct.


the result is a Sci-fi that is unique and has a very deep and engaging fluff.

The guard recruit females all the time in the fluff, they just don't have models often. Part of this being due to the guard plastics being old and limited in options, we might see a mixed regiment when there is a new plastic regiment in a few years.

Which i think would be an amazing thing to see.

Grey Templar wrote:it is true that GW hasn't always had the same fluff. there was a reason for that, the fluff was kinda awful in parts and abit Cliche.

So you don't have a problem with the fluff evolving over time? You also consider it to be malleable with evolving social tastes and norms?

You see where this is going, right?

I think fluff should change if it's horrible to begin with.

not because it's trying to be politically correct.



besides, SM usually recruit from Feral worlds which 95% of the time will not have females be the warrior class. it would be kinda odd to have SM show up and take a daughter to be a warrior from a society that doesn't do that sort of thing.

yeah, they could retcon that too, but again it's more changes to a perfectly good system.



fortunantly i see no evidence of GW changing the fluff to allow for Female marines any time soon.


just because it happens on 4chan doesn't mean its a good idea.


I didn't vote in the above poll because my position wasn't accounted for.

Grey Templar wrote:hence they axed the Squats and had the Zoats become extinct.

The Zoats became Hive Fleet Colossus.

Colossus consisted of several large nomadic fleets that displayed many similarities to other Tyranid Hive Fleets. Their vessels were conch-like crafts apparently grown from stone. The centauroid creatures of Colossus were able to make use of Tyranid weapon-symbiotes, although it appeared to be a painful process for them to equip themselves with the bio-weapons. The creatures of Colossus had the ability to communicate telepathically and were known to communicate with other races. The creatures claimed they were slaves escaping from an unnamed oppressor.1, 2

The centaur-like description of the creatures of Colossus and the claim they were slaves has lead many fans to speculate the creatures of Colossus are actually Zoats, a species of centaur slaves to the Tyranids introduced in Warhammer 40,000: Rogue Trader, although this has never been officially stated.

While the Hive Fleet was 'destroyed', it's not like there could never be more.

No - The chances of it being handled with anything remotely resembling tact, good taste or even basic respect is less than great.

Gimme some boobies! Hell ya, well should really get some more female models. The weird thing is so far, all of the ones they've made are ugly, so I think its about time we got some hot chicks in there.

TheMuffinMan98 wrote:Gimme some boobies! Hell ya, well should really get some more female models. The weird thing is so far, all of the ones they've made are ugly, so I think its about time we got some hot chicks in there.

Lelith is a really nice model. Body shape of a more athletic woman, not with huge boobs poking out the front, but it's a really good female miniature.

I have to say no, after the discussion in another thread about the difficulty of making quality female models that have to share arms and legs with male models.

I still have not heard why any of the female marine advocates are not complaining about no male models in the sisters of battle. Gender Inequality!!!! (that is 50% of the population being ignored)

I like that the sisters of battle are all female. But if we are so worried about gender inequality, why don't we push for men in the sisters of battle?

As previously stated, for those of you who are concerned about the juvenile anti-female approach to space marines by GW, power armor would not need to be retrofited for female superwarriors (who would look like the juiced up body builder women of the real world). A few simple headswaps will grant you female marines.

But for those of us who enjoy the current fluff, it doesn't make a lit of sense. And our opinoins about that are not mysogynous or juvenile, we just like the background of a brotherhood of super warriors who take on traits of their primarch.

yeah, let us keep our Fraternities made up of buds n bros.



and lets face it, even IF GW made more female models it wouldn't bring more people in(specifically the female audience)


If a little 12 year old girl would play 40k at all she probably would have started up anyway. more female models or not. and there are SoB if an all girl army is needed.


heck, having more female models, especially PA ones, might actually drive people away due to the whole female fantesy warrior archtype. this could alse be the reason GW is moving away from it's existing female models being halfnaked(Wytches are wearing about 33% more then they used to and Deamonettes are no longer topless) although it remains to be seen if SoB go away from the metal Corset look and have a more practicle armor design.

Bastion of Mediocrity wrote:I still have not heard why any of the female marine advocates are not complaining about no male models in the sisters of battle. Gender Inequality!!!! (that is 50% of the population being ignored)

I like that the sisters of battle are all female. But if we are so worried about gender inequality, why don't we push for men in the sisters of battle?

I agree that one major problem with adding female space marines would be that the Sisters would essentially have no more reason to exist in their current form. Not exactly what I am aiming for. I'd be happy with integrated Guard, or even...

Bastion of Mediocrity wrote: A few simple headswaps will grant you female marines.

An add-on pack of female heads and maybe arms would make me happy, yes, just as they sell jump packs and other conversion bits.

Bastion of Mediocrity wrote:But for those of us who enjoy the current fluff, it doesn't make a lit of sense. And our opinoins about that are not mysogynous or juvenile, we just like the background of a brotherhood of super warriors who take on traits of their primarch.

Sure, fair enough - but, about the Primarchs... two of whom are unknown, and could conceivably be female, yes? What about, instead of female space marines intermingled, per se, there were a chapter of solely female space marines?

it's unlikely that the 2 missing primarchs are female.


the basic desire to have symmetry would have mandated the Emperor creating 1/2 and 1/2 which he didn't.

besides, the Emperor basically cloned himself to make the Primarchs.


if 2 were female that would result in them having 2 identicle X chromosomes without significant alteration(not a problem with all the scientific alteration going on, but still an issue)

its simpler just to keep the primarchs male. one less step in the creation process as you don't have to off the bat fix certain problems.

You do realise that when you clone something it starts off female, right?

What?

Not as i understand it


cloning takes the genetic material of a unfertilized Egg cell(which is neither male nor female as it only has a single X) and replaces it with the complete genetic material of the doner(both Chromosomes)


the original genetic material never is a complete organisim. it's just a bag of biomatter.

add in the 2nd chromosome and it becomes a new life.

On the subject of female ork's. When they existed they had nothing more than a basic animal inteligence and wre in general kept at home just to push out sproggs. You can kind of see why they rewrote the fluff on Orks, so they could avoid accusations of Misogyny when they stated aiming the games more for kids.

The same happened to the Fimir in WHFB who were totally removed from the fact that they used to reproduce via kidknapping and rapeing women, which isn't really child friendly .

On fem-Marines I have nothing against people converting their own. I do find some do get really anal about fluff, but it is just a hobby and if a player wants to edit the existing fluff for their view of the 40K universe. Unless there is vast majority of people who want to have fem-maines then GW as a whole should keep it how it is. Im toally againt 'thought' police coming around looking at the range of models and saying 'theres not enough woman in those armies, make some so we don't offend some one' there has been too much of this thing over the last few years in other areas.

'What?

Not as i understand it '

Should have been more specific. Need more Caffiene

Parthenogenesis will always result in a female.


Other cloning: depends on the method/science involved. Direct copying your dna to grow a minime might wind up with you getting an exact copy, but it might not if your process is imperfect, or there are recessive/defective genes in your makeup that could trigger under certain cirumstances.

You'd also have to be very certain that you removed all trace of the previous DNA to prevent unexpected combinations.

I'm all for female options for Guard and Tau and Eldar and that stuff, but I find bewb marines ridiculous and GW shouldn't have to go out of their way for a niche market.

Obsidian wrote:On the subject of female ork's. When they existed they had nothing more than a basic animal inteligence and wre in general kept at home just to push out sproggs. You can kind of see why they rewrote the fluff on Orks, so they could avoid accusations of Misogyny when they stated aiming the games more for kids.

The same happened to the Fimir in WHFB who were totally removed from the fact that they used to reproduce via kidknapping and rapeing women, which isn't really child friendly .

I think you are referring to fantasy orcs, AFAIK there were never female orks in 40K not even in RT days, it was always the spore thingy.

Several people have mentioned that they are systematically family-friendlyfying the fluff. GW is a business in a rather niche market whose main customer base acquire their disposable income from thier parents. In this age of political correctness and obsessive public prudishness (Heck, over in the UK we have even edited/stopped teaching some nursery rhymes in case we offend one minority or another, and it's taboo to breast-feed an infant in public) having fluff that openly admits a species reproduces via rape and multi-breasted. pierced-nippled sex-daemon miniatures is going to affect the sales somewhat. Imagine the scene:

'Hey Timmy, what you got there?'
'Hi mum, this is a fimir, it kidnaps women and rapes them to continue the species!'
concerned mum: *note to self, never allow child in GW store again...*

I think the main issue here is that female parts for the sensible kits would be an easy addition, but that does mean that GW has to bring out a new kit. As for conversion parts (think meltagun pack), then you are basically catering to a niche in a niche market. So another reason it hasn't been done is probably a purely business decision.


On the subject of SoB, if we change the iron corset thing they've got going on, then we have to do a lot of re-tooling of very well established imagery, and to be fair the imagery is pretty good at the moment, so lets not try to fix something thats not broken

On the subject of female marines. I've always thought the base concept of marines was that of a fraternity of warrior-monks, yes we could re-write the fluff and put females in there, but it would lose a lot of the base concept in the process, perhaps detracting from what makes space marines unique, and not just another generic sci-fi genetically modified super-solider.

Bastion of Mediocrity wrote:I still have not heard why any of the female marine advocates are not complaining about no male models in the sisters of battle. Gender Inequality!!!! (that is 50% of the population being ignored)

I like that the sisters of battle are all female. But if we are so worried about gender inequality, why don't we push for men in the sisters of battle?

We're not interested in that. Why should we talk about it?

Anyway, I've got my "Monks Of Mayhem" army to keep me going.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Grey Templar wrote:it's unlikely that the 2 missing primarchs are female.


the basic desire to have symmetry would have mandated the Emperor creating 1/2 and 1/2 which he didn't.

besides, the Emperor basically cloned himself to make the Primarchs.


if 2 were female that would result in them having 2 identicle X chromosomes without significant alteration(not a problem with all the scientific alteration going on, but still an issue)

its simpler just to keep the primarchs male. one less step in the creation process as you don't have to off the bat fix certain problems.

How do you know the Emporer wasn't XXY?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Requia wrote:I have to say no, after the discussion in another thread about the difficulty of making quality female models that have to share arms and legs with male models.

That would be easily solved by making quality female models that didn't have to share arms and legs with male models.

If GW are going to make a new sprue they can just stick female arms and legs on it.

Kilkrazy wrote: Automatically Appended Next Post:

Grey Templar wrote:it's unlikely that the 2 missing primarchs are female.


the basic desire to have symmetry would have mandated the Emperor creating 1/2 and 1/2 which he didn't.

besides, the Emperor basically cloned himself to make the Primarchs.


if 2 were female that would result in them having 2 identicle X chromosomes without significant alteration(not a problem with all the scientific alteration going on, but still an issue)

its simpler just to keep the primarchs male. one less step in the creation process as you don't have to off the bat fix certain problems.

How do you know the Emporer wasn't XXY?

because he was born as a normal human and thats what he was physically.


after his psychic powers reemerged he waas capable of altering his appearence, but i doubt he would give himself a genetic disorder.

Female necrons,




what?

Technically, there are female necrons.


it's just that the C'tan put everyone into identical, gender neutral, politically correct metal bodies.

Grey Templar wrote:yeah, let us keep our Fraternities made up of buds n bros.

and lets face it, even IF GW made more female models it wouldn't bring more people in(specifically the female audience)

I love how people with sticks think they know what those without sticks want. My wife doesn't play because the Sisters of Battle look butch and are to expensive to collect. She is hoping they will look more feminine when they are released soon.

You bring up good points but every time I read one of your posts, I picture some 12 year old scared of girl cooties.

as you can see in my prifile i am not 12 years old.

i just want my marines to stay male.



I agree that the current SoB range is a litte exaggerated and hope for it to be more realistic in it's sculpts.

Grey Templar wrote:as you can see in my prifile i am not 12 years old.

i just want my marines to stay male.



I agree that the current SoB range is a litte exaggerated and hope for it to be more realistic in it's sculpts.

I know I was just picturing it. I guess it sounded a little offensive and for that I apologize. I guess the thing is, I just don't get the dislike of the possibility of female marines. It doesn't compute for me, probably the same way you have trouble processing their inclusion.

If you look at the GW universe, it looks like we have went backwards in time. Women are almost nonexistent and have no roles in the society of war. They talk about female IG, but I don't see them.

I get major slong fest vibes from the whole thing. Women probably account for less than 5% of the fluff, when we are outnumbered by them in today's society. I just don't work that way. I am all for women's rights. Call me whipped, but I have been happily married for 15 years.

Warhammer just feels like a Boys only club (hence the cooties comment). I picture moose clubs, boy scouts, biker gangs, all male presidents, and glass ceilings. Warhammer seems to reinforce the concepts of women inferiority, and if you feel that way, good luck getting a date.

But like you said, a better SOB range would go along ways. It would feel less like a boys only thing if they attempted to make them better.

Well, as of this post, it looks like 85% of respondents want an increased female ratio in 40k in one form or the other. So, to those saying it's a niche; not so sure that's true. Granted this is a miniscule fraction, a grain of sand of the beach of the interwebs, but still.

I for one would be happy with an add-on sprue of female cadians, another for catachans, and perhaps some bare-head female heads for headswaps.

Lord Scythican wrote:

Grey Templar wrote:as you can see in my prifile i am not 12 years old.

i just want my marines to stay male.



I agree that the current SoB range is a litte exaggerated and hope for it to be more realistic in it's sculpts.

I know I was just picturing it. I guess it sounded a little offensive and for that I apologize. I guess the thing is, I just don't get the dislike of the possibility of female marines. It doesn't compute for me, probably the same way you have trouble processing their inclusion.

If you look at the GW universe, it looks like we have went backwards in time. Women are almost nonexistent and have no roles in the society of war. They talk about female IG, but I don't see them.

I get major slong fest vibes from the whole thing. Women probably account for less than 5% of the fluff, when we are outnumbered by them in today's society. I just don't work that way. I am all for women's rights. Call me whipped, but I have been happily married for 15 years.

Warhammer just feels like a Boys only club (hence the cooties comment). I picture moose clubs, boy scouts, biker gangs, all male presidents, and glass ceilings. Warhammer seems to reinforce the concepts of women inferiority, and if you feel that way, good luck getting a date.

But like you said, a better SOB range would go along ways. It would feel less like a boys only thing if they attempted to make them better.

if you read the Gaunts Ghosts or any other IG novel you will always have female characters.

most other books have secondary female characters.

Grey Templar wrote:

Lord Scythican wrote:

Grey Templar wrote:as you can see in my prifile i am not 12 years old.

i just want my marines to stay male.



I agree that the current SoB range is a litte exaggerated and hope for it to be more realistic in it's sculpts.

I know I was just picturing it. I guess it sounded a little offensive and for that I apologize. I guess the thing is, I just don't get the dislike of the possibility of female marines. It doesn't compute for me, probably the same way you have trouble processing their inclusion.

If you look at the GW universe, it looks like we have went backwards in time. Women are almost nonexistent and have no roles in the society of war. They talk about female IG, but I don't see them.

I get major slong fest vibes from the whole thing. Women probably account for less than 5% of the fluff, when we are outnumbered by them in today's society. I just don't work that way. I am all for women's rights. Call me whipped, but I have been happily married for 15 years.

Warhammer just feels like a Boys only club (hence the cooties comment). I picture moose clubs, boy scouts, biker gangs, all male presidents, and glass ceilings. Warhammer seems to reinforce the concepts of women inferiority, and if you feel that way, good luck getting a date.

But like you said, a better SOB range would go along ways. It would feel less like a boys only thing if they attempted to make them better.

if you read the Gaunts Ghosts or any other IG novel you will always have female characters.

most other books have secondary female characters.

True, but I don't like warhammer for the books. I like it for the models. If I told my wife that she could get her female minis through Guants Ghosts, she would laugh at me and look at me like I grew a third head.

Bastion of Mediocrity wrote:I still have not heard why any of the female marine advocates are not complaining about no male models in the sisters of battle. Gender Inequality!!!! (that is 50% of the population being ignored)

I like that the sisters of battle are all female. But if we are so worried about gender inequality, why don't we push for men in the sisters of battle?

Actually, at one point in SoB history, there were, effectively, male sisters of battle, the Frateris Templars, who's gear and tactics SoB were derived from once the Frateris Templars were disbanded due to the Decree Passive. The only reason the SoB themselves still exist is due to a legal loophole.

Grey Templar wrote:it's unlikely that the 2 missing primarchs are female.

the basic desire to have symmetry would have mandated the Emperor creating 1/2 and 1/2 which he didn't.

besides, the Emperor basically cloned himself to make the Primarchs.


if 2 were female that would result in them having 2 identicle X chromosomes without significant alteration(not a problem with all the scientific alteration going on, but still an issue)

its simpler just to keep the primarchs male. one less step in the creation process as you don't have to off the bat fix certain problems.

Actually, that's incorrect, it would have been simpler to have them female. There are fewer steps, hormonally speaking, for something to go wrong, since humans default to female form if they have malformed receptors for testosterone.

Secondly, no, the Emperor DID NOT clone himself to make the primarchs. He (other people) genetically engineered them (for him) as supermen based off his own DNA. There is a BIG difference there.

Considering the variety of frankly wild and convoluted genetic alterations that the primarchs had, it's actually more surprising that one of them was not female.

Leigen_Zero wrote:

I think you are referring to fantasy orcs, AFAIK there were never female orks in 40K not even in RT days, it was always the spore thingy.

...

On the subject of female marines. I've always thought the base concept of marines was that of a fraternity of warrior-monks, yes we could re-write the fluff and put females in there, but it would lose a lot of the base concept in the process, perhaps detracting from what makes space marines unique, and not just another generic sci-fi genetically modified super-solider.

Not entirely correct: originally 40k orks = WFB orks. They were identical, so logically, there would have been female orks the first time around, but we're heading into some seriously /TG/ terrain here.

And there have been, historically speaking, female sororities of warrior nuns.

Grey Templar wrote:
GW moved away from the "Fantesy in space" feeling because it was the right thing to do.

hence they axed the Squats and had the Zoats become extinct.

the result is a Sci-fi that is unique and has a very deep and engaging fluff.

It's not even close to Sci-Fi. 40k is still very much Fantasy in Space. What's really sad is it measured softer on the Sci-fi scale then Spelljammer does. Which had space ships propelled by giant space hamsters.

Let's stop and think: 40k space ships alone are impossible, they exist in defiance of Newton's laws of Motion AND everything humanity knows about structural stress, never mind the fantasy genetics that allow for space marines. Or the fact there are sorcerers running around that fry things with lightening.

Grey Templar wrote:

besides, SM usually recruit from Feral worlds which 95% of the time will not have females be the warrior class. it would be kinda odd to have SM show up and take a daughter to be a warrior from a society that doesn't do that sort of thing.
...
fortunantly i see no evidence of GW changing the fluff to allow for Female marines any time soon.

So, you don't think them removing the thing about needing to be male from C:SM is a change?

Approx 20% of the Sarmatian 'warrior graves' on the lower Don and Volga contained women armed for combat. The Sarmatians as a culture existed from around the 6th century BC to around the 4th Century AD. A thousand year run when you're enemies included the Roman Empire and the Huns at the same time isn't bad. Many nordic cultures had similar practices. Unfortunately, the record is not clear just how common female warriors in primitive cultures are, however, your '95%' is likely incorrect. We can actually PROOVE higher rates then that, and accounts from other cultures of the period imply the rate was much higher.

Brutus notes the Lusitanian women "fighting and perishing in company with the men with such bravery that they uttered no cry even in the midst of slaughter" and the Bracari, a Celtic tribe from Gallaecia that the women "bearing arms with the men, who fought never turning, never showing their backs, or uttering a cry."

Marius in his campaign against the Cimbrians also notes that the women fought alongside the men, and then fought on after the men were all slain.

Boudica's army, it is suggested in Tacticus, was more women then men.

To me, this would suggest that your appraisal of 'feral' cultures is inaccurate.

Lore based continuity being the thing, I too think there should not be femarines per say. But they do need more female models in the line of products. Chief among those needed, especially with the advent of the Dawn of War games, is female Eldar Farseers and other aspects.

I would love to have at least a few female soldiers for imperial guard. Would add more variety.

I don't wanna see any females in 40k now, the grey knights might randomly slaughter them, defile there bodies and cover themseleves in there blood

So, standard practiCe for the GK still being maintained then

Grey Templar wrote:

Kilkrazy wrote: Automatically Appended Next Post:

Grey Templar wrote:it's unlikely that the 2 missing primarchs are female.


the basic desire to have symmetry would have mandated the Emperor creating 1/2 and 1/2 which he didn't.

besides, the Emperor basically cloned himself to make the Primarchs.


if 2 were female that would result in them having 2 identicle X chromosomes without significant alteration(not a problem with all the scientific alteration going on, but still an issue)

its simpler just to keep the primarchs male. one less step in the creation process as you don't have to off the bat fix certain problems.

How do you know the Emporer wasn't XXY?

because he was born as a normal human and thats what he was physically.


after his psychic powers reemerged he waas capable of altering his appearence, but i doubt he would give himself a genetic disorder.

He wasn't born as a normal human. He was generated as the result of deliberate self-sacrifice by thousands of shamans in an attempt to make a superbeing.

For the Orks thing. There is no such thing as a female Ork.

As for everyone else I would have to say yes. Space Marines is a big NO NO! As there is no such thing as a female space marine but I.G, Inquisition and others would be fine.

Kilkrazy wrote:

Grey Templar wrote:

Kilkrazy wrote: Automatically Appended Next Post:

Grey Templar wrote:it's unlikely that the 2 missing primarchs are female.


the basic desire to have symmetry would have mandated the Emperor creating 1/2 and 1/2 which he didn't.

besides, the Emperor basically cloned himself to make the Primarchs.


if 2 were female that would result in them having 2 identicle X chromosomes without significant alteration(not a problem with all the scientific alteration going on, but still an issue)

its simpler just to keep the primarchs male. one less step in the creation process as you don't have to off the bat fix certain problems.

How do you know the Emporer wasn't XXY?

because he was born as a normal human and thats what he was physically.


after his psychic powers reemerged he waas capable of altering his appearence, but i doubt he would give himself a genetic disorder.

He wasn't born as a normal human. He was generated as the result of deliberate self-sacrifice by thousands of shamans in an attempt to make a superbeing.

his soul was created like that, but his body was just the offspring of some random parents in Anatolia. 100% human.

I just love how people can get so emphatic about treknobabble Or would that be 40knobabble

Given that the'ye basically doing the messiah bit, who's to say that he wasn't holy ghosted in there too as an embryo

I want to give another thumbs up to those have said there should be a conversion pack of female heads for imperial guard. That is a great idea.

Despite my defense of male only space marines, I would really love to see more female models. One of the better things about modern/future warfare is that gender does not matter as much as it did in pre-gun powder warfare. Anyone can pull a trigger, and frankly women tend to be more agile than men (speaking averages here).

I would love to see an all female army of Imperial Guard, with their own iconography and history etc. That would be really cool, especially if it wasn't the Swedish bikini team, but real looking female sculpts.

While I can see where people like to play around with the possibility of the lost 2 primarchs being female, It does not really jive with existing background (which has unfortunately proven to not be trustworthy since the last Necron codex) but if someone wanted to play me with their especially converted femarines army I would not complain, I would just enjoy the game.

For gaurd and witch hunters there defo should be, maybe some female psyker for them or some such and cultists not only need actual decent models but female ones to.

Cant really say for other armies, most seem to look androgynous, specially eldar and tau. As for ork females, whats the point orks reproduce by spores so male and females have no point. Necrons are the same neither male nor female.

Nids, look at bugs females tend to be larger and much more killy than males so the bigger nids would be female as they give birth and need to defend them self till they lay eggs, gaunts reproducing, just paint a few with slightly different colours to depict the varying sexes.

Sadly im with most here, GW would screw it up, skimpy clothes and stupid proportions. Military women aint the pornstar physique there fairly muscular and wouldnt have nice long hair and knee high boots lol.

I think some female models would be a good thing, but only in armies where it would make sense. You're probably not gonna see any girls in the SM chapters or CSM. But it could be done well with Eldar and DE, which is already has. IG could have some more female models for sure, its not like on a military planet ONLY the men are all at war and the women are at home making stew and rearing 5 babies. Im sure there are tons of female guard.

/me decides to make a counts-as-Grey-Knights army consisting entirely of psychic schoolgirls.

themocaw wrote:/me decides to make a counts-as-Grey-Knights army consisting entirely of psychic schoolgirls.

With Samurai swords?

The sad part is, it's not that much different from how things are...

"Now, Abaddon, one shall stand, and one shall fall!' - Optimus Prime, Dreadknight

If ytou want to play an anime army, play tau

Use tau with the GK codex as counts as.. that would be awesome...

wargaming seems to be pretty male dominated, the only female i've ever seen in GW is my girlfriend who stands next to me as i get into a deep conversation with on of the staff, tapping her foot and tutting trying to get my attention cos she's bored. However she actually enjoys the hobby, she gives paining a go and i think she would enjoy the feel of some strong female leads poss to the point of starting an army.

yes we have witch hunters but so few models are available and i NEVER see anyone playing them or the models in GW. Advertise to the ladies GW, come on!!

As 4 citadel ruining the models, think they would have to try harder if the idea where to take off and not make them a contender for sexism lawsuits.

Ascalam wrote:If ytou want to play an anime army, play tau

Use tau with the GK codex as counts as.. that would be awesome...

I dunno, with all these not-Gundams that the GKs are driving around these days...

I should point out, I think, I'm not a proponent of every race being integrated. Specifically not Orks. Orks don't need females because they aren't even male, technically; they likely lack sexual organs of any kind, yes? I prefer them as they are; a fungoid-based biological weapon.

I don't know nearly anything about Tau. Are there female members of the fire caste?

yes there are.

all Fire Caste members are warriors. Male and Female.

in the Ultramarine omnibus, the T'au PoW captured is a female, but the Space Marines can only really tell by the faint scent and a slight vocal difference.

Idea: they could do something similar to the "command vehicle sprue"; that is, make an upgrade sprue that comes with several female heads for several races. You'd need 5 or so imperial guard, 5 eldar, 5 tau(this one's a maybe, as the only female model of a tau has a different head, but it's hard to know if this is across the board), ect. Most races have face or most-of-head covering helmets, so you'd only need these heads for sergeants. And then GW would only have to make one sprue to appeal to a wide range of people who enjoy the painting & modeling section of the hobby. I mean, if they can make a sprue of random parts to slap on your tanks, then why not this?

Yes, Yes, and again Yes. GW needs to add female models to existing lines where applicable with fluff, the one that stands out the most is the IG.

Bastion of Mediocrity wrote:I still have not heard why any of the female marine advocates are not complaining about no male models in the sisters of battle. Gender Inequality!!!! (that is 50% of the population being ignored)

I like that the sisters of battle are all female. But if we are so worried about gender inequality, why don't we push for men in the sisters of battle?

Using the current Sisters of Battle (Witch Hunter) codex, I was able to build a 1500 point force that did not have a single female model. Just fyi.

Yes for Imperial Guard, Tau and others. Eldar and Dark Eldar already have a lot of female models. That said, there are no female Tyranids, Space Marines, Necrons and Orks and never will be. But, yes I think they should, my sister might play more is she could get more female Guardsmen (She has five).

Ouze wrote:

Bastion of Mediocrity wrote:I still have not heard why any of the female marine advocates are not complaining about no male models in the sisters of battle. Gender Inequality!!!! (that is 50% of the population being ignored)

I like that the sisters of battle are all female. But if we are so worried about gender inequality, why don't we push for men in the sisters of battle?

Using the current Sisters of Battle (Witch Hunter) codex, I was able to build a 1500 point force that did not have a single female model. Just fyi.

because you used ISTs and that doesn't count.


we demand male SoBs.

frilly PA and bolters all

Grey Templar wrote:

Ouze wrote:

Bastion of Mediocrity wrote:I still have not heard why any of the female marine advocates are not complaining about no male models in the sisters of battle. Gender Inequality!!!! (that is 50% of the population being ignored)

I like that the sisters of battle are all female. But if we are so worried about gender inequality, why don't we push for men in the sisters of battle?

Using the current Sisters of Battle (Witch Hunter) codex, I was able to build a 1500 point force that did not have a single female model. Just fyi.

because you used ISTs and that doesn't count.

Sorry, could you repeat that? I couldn't hear you over the screeching noise the goalpost made when you moved it.

BaronIveagh wrote:

themocaw wrote:/me decides to make a counts-as-Grey-Knights army consisting entirely of psychic schoolgirls.

With Samurai swords?

http://www.reapermini.com/OnlineStore/anime/latest/50176
http://www.reapermini.com/OnlineStore/anime/latest/50024

I could probably get some Legion of Everblight claymores or greatswords to use as NFW.

More like this (Hasslefree)

I bought her for a Venomthrope diorama

Ouze wrote:

Grey Templar wrote:

Ouze wrote:

Bastion of Mediocrity wrote:I still have not heard why any of the female marine advocates are not complaining about no male models in the sisters of battle. Gender Inequality!!!! (that is 50% of the population being ignored)

I like that the sisters of battle are all female. But if we are so worried about gender inequality, why don't we push for men in the sisters of battle?

Using the current Sisters of Battle (Witch Hunter) codex, I was able to build a 1500 point force that did not have a single female model. Just fyi.

because you used ISTs and that doesn't count.

Sorry, could you repeat that? I couldn't hear you over the screeching noise the goalpost made when you moved it.

I was moving it BACK to where it belongs

but seriously, you couldn't have had an all male SoB army.

an all male Witch Hunter army yeah. using ISTs and Inquisitors.

Grey Templar wrote:

I was moving it BACK to where it belongs

but seriously, you couldn't have had an all male SoB army.

an all male Witch Hunter army yeah. using ISTs and Inquisitors.

Again, since you keep dodging the answer, you could have an all male SoB army if it was set during, or just previous to, the Age of Apostasy.

ok True, but then it would be 'counts as' and wouldn't be SoB on a fluff standard

Grey Templar wrote:ok True, but then it would be 'counts as' and wouldn't be SoB on a fluff standard

True, since SoB had a different name at that time.

Personally, I think the reason that most people don't question is is that the reason given makes some sense. (That they exist as they currently stand, based on a legal loophole.) How to put this: All female SoB has a reason that makes sense in a real world frame of reference. The all male space marine's reason is in defiance of a real world frame of reference.

Part of the problem is that 40k is fantasy thinly disguised as Sci-Fi. People who see it as a sci-fi universe expect it to behave in a sci-fi manner, in that science, or what passes for it, follows the same basic rules as the real world.

Grey Templar wrote:... ... ...

...

but seriously, you couldn't have had an all male SoB army.

... .

Yes, you could. I invented them last year -- the Monks of Mayhem -- then I found out that until M35 or something, there was a "real" Monks of Mayhem army (it wasn't called that), and it was dissolved and replaced with the Sisters of Battle due to political reasons.

So it is entirely possible to make an all male SoB army.

Kilkrazy wrote:

Grey Templar wrote:... ... ...

...

but seriously, you couldn't have had an all male SoB army.

... .

Yes, you could. I invented them last year -- the Monks of Mayhem -- then I found out that until M35 or something, there was a "real" Monks of Mayhem army (it wasn't called that), and it was dissolved and replaced with the Sisters of Battle due to political reasons.

So it is entirely possible to make an all male SoB army.

So we just need KK to "invent" whatever type of army we want.....

to bad KK didn't provide us with pics ...
or an article "how to create an army ignoring the lack of support for your idea in the background and also defend your idea against any
disagreement by calling the background invalid".

Maybe this not-female-sisters were not called sisters because they weren't female? Maybe and just maybe, it is beneficial to spare the few
believable pieces of background before GW sacrifices their whole 40kverse on the altar of M.W.' s codex design process.
Is it such a big deal if a certain army ,which isn't the most numerous at estimated 1k x 1k , does not include females?
You still get to field as many females as you want as part of an army of bazillions of Human beeings.

Plus, anything named "sister" should hint at the gender, like "brother" does....

Eldar has plenty of female models!

Have you ever "sexed" a guardian? Its really fun, if you look really close, some of them are actually girls (about 2 in every box of 10 or so). The front of their armor is different, but when you put them on the table you can't really tell because its blocked by their gun. However if you peer down between their head and gun, you can definitely tell which ones are boys and which ones are females.

also banshees, but thats a bit more obvious. Interestingly there should be male Banshees, even though they are mostly female- remember that every Autarch toting a power weapon at one point walked the path of the Banshee!

The moral of the story- if you want to play an equal opporunity employer army- play Eldar

akaean wrote:Eldar has plenty of female models!

The moral of the story- if you want to play an equal opporunity employer army- play Eldar

Ture, but GW really droped the ball when it comes to the IG. In the fluff you see plenty of female IG fighting. Unfortunately when it comes to the models themselves there is not a single female IG model in the most current line up for that army (with the exemption of the classic collectors sets like the Last chancers and Gants Ghosts). Where it really should be more like the eldar where approximately every 1 in 5 models is female.

akaean wrote:Eldar has plenty of female models!

Have you ever "sexed" a guardian? Its really fun, if you look really close, some of them are actually girls (about 2 in every box of 10 or so). The front of their armor is different, but when you put them on the table you can't really tell because its blocked by their gun. However if you peer down between their head and gun, you can definitely tell which ones are boys and which ones are females.

also banshees, but thats a bit more obvious. Interestingly there should be male Banshees, even though they are mostly female- remember that every Autarch toting a power weapon at one point walked the path of the Banshee!

The moral of the story- if you want to play an equal opporunity employer army- play Eldar

Yes, Eldar and (recent) Dark Eldar are, IMO, the only armies that are getting it right so far, inasmuch as not only do they have females, when wearing body armor it's difficult to even tell. Less so with the DE. More importantly (to me), the females aren't ridiculous looking, with giant boobs and such; they are dressed equivalently to how the males dress.

Going off on a tangent, I really appreciate how nuanced and troll-free this thread has gone so far. When the topic of female marines came up, to be frank, I wasn't sure it could happen.

Ouze wrote:

Going off on a tangent, I really appreciate how nuanced and troll-free this thread has gone so far. When the topic of female marines came up, to be frank, I wasn't sure it could happen.

I've generally found there are certain people that like to troll this subject, and only one of them appeared early on, before that particular item came up.

Personally, I've been enjoying us having a troll free discussion of the matter (for once) and would like to see this pattern continue.

Though, In all honesty, the new Codex: Grey Knights has shocked a lot of people in the 'fluff first' camp, so they may be distracted at the moment. After all, femmarines are far less canon breaking then Grey Knights that bathe in blood and burn down the garden of nurgle.

Yes, if anything: on female marines, we can compromise.

On Grey Knights slaughtering innocent Sister of Battle so they could wear their blood: purge the heresy

It may make me a horrible person, but I want space sluts >.>

guiltl3ss wrote:It may make me a horrible person, but I want space sluts >.>

69% of the poll agrees with you, how cool is that?

Not bad ^^. Something tasteful tho. Tasteful Space Sluts...for my Guard, of course.

I think it would be more interesting if there was more female miniatures for SM, IG, Tau, and Eldar, for chaos the end result would probably look very disturbing maybe and I don't want to even talk about the orks.

avondale wrote:I think it would be more interesting if there was more female miniatures for SM, IG, Tau, and Eldar, for chaos the end result would probably look very disturbing maybe and I don't want to even talk about the orks.

I thought that Chaos is supposed to look disturbing....? Gender is a very vague notion with some of them anyway....

fox-light713 wrote:Ture, but GW really droped the ball when it comes to the IG. In the fluff you see plenty of female IG fighting. Unfortunately when it comes to the models themselves there is not a single female IG model in the most current line up for that army (with the exemption of the classic collectors sets like the Last chancers and Gants Ghosts). Where it really should be more like the eldar where approximately every 1 in 5 models is female.

Definitely more female Guard please. For all their representation in the background, they're basically missing from the model range.

I had in mind a conversion project to tie in with the lead characters of some fiction I'm working on, but essentially I can't get decent female models to do it with. I did look at Hasslefree etc, but they were a bit glamour for the characters I have. (Who are not very glamour at all, being a bit on the skinny side.)

hmm well I voted no.1 (wont suprise anyone who knows me)

Amongst my consdierable collection I have pretty much all the female human models made for 40K including

Original Imperial Army (now Guard) soldiers (in and out of power armour) wielding wepaons from lasgun to autocannon (singlehanded)
Schaffers last Chancers figures
Female Tanith
Escher Gangers (about 35 of them)
Female Inqusitor

I would like some more - esp of those already mentioned in fluff - some of Valhalan ladies (who vary hugely in physical appearance) and Regina and Amberley would be wonderful as I am a big C.Caine fan, although we have them in other IG novels as well. A few Tanith Snipers would be great.....

There are plenty of gaps for more female humans - Imperial Navy and Staff Officers for instance

Unsuprisingly I am very happy with the new Dark Eldar range looking forward to some more or simliar quality from GW for the Eldar and Tau (Shadowsun is a start)- although I agree they are likely harder to spot the diffrences (a bit like Kroot?) Perhaps we will get to see what the Nicasar look like?

An couple of Ogryn would be fun

I am not myself wanting female marines, Orks

Happy to see a "female" Necron special character - the Lords retain varying degrees of personality.

A Norn Queen may be a BIG model

Mr Morden wrote:hmm well I voted no.1 (wont suprise anyone who knows me)

Amongst my consdierable collection I have pretty much all the female human models made for 40K including

Original Imperial Army (now Guard) soldiers (in and out of power armour) wielding wepaons from lasgun to autocannon (singlehanded)
Schaffers last Chancers figures
Female Tanith
Escher Gangers (about 35 of them)
Female Inqusitor

You don't have the female catachan with grenade launcher? (then again, I'm missing rocket girl from Last Chancers)


He, I'd like to see the option, even if it was someone like Chapterhouse putting out bits other then head swaps, since their existing line of female head swaps is awful, for Sm and IG. Though just for the amusement of certain people, a buxom tau on a bikini would be hilarious.

avondale wrote:I think it would be more interesting if there was more female miniatures for SM, IG, Tau, and Eldar, for chaos the end result would probably look very disturbing maybe and I don't want to even talk about the orks.

Orks dont have gender in 40k.

They are fungus that reproduces from emitting spores passively and when they die.

Lord Scythican wrote:Okay I admit. I want me some female orks...


There should be female space marines. Heck the two lost chapters could be all female, which is why they were removed from history. HA!

Behold...the reason your stupid to want those.




Why?

Because they exist and are ugly as sin...actually maybe I should had used the word Ignorant. It rather implies that you have not been educated on the ugliness of Female Orks.

Why oh why did you have to repost that pic?!?

Also that is an Orc, not an Ork, cause there are no female Orks.

Also also, why did you repost that pic?!?

I wondered how long before someone had to try and troll the thread by breaking it out. We made it onto page six, so that's pretty good for the subject and avoiding having some troll pop on.

avondale wrote:I think it would be more interesting if there was more female miniatures for SM, IG, Tau, and Eldar, for chaos the end result would probably look very disturbing maybe and I don't want to even talk about the orks.

A female space marine would look exactly like a male one, and considering they're the single smallest, most insignificant faction in 40K (under a million of them at all times, each the equivalent of twelve normal humans, thus amounting to well under a millionth of the total strength of the Guard...), why make them take female recruits too? It's not like there's any shortage of potential candidates to meet their extremely small demands for recruits.

IG, yes.

Tau, there probably already are. They're just noseless fish aliens in full body armor, so you can't tell.

Eldar, there most definitely are female models, especially in the new DE.

Part of the problem is that, supposedly, space marines are the best. When looking for the best, why limit your pool of candidates? I've seen more then a few occasions where a female actually out performed her male rivals for a position.

The process of making a beakie only works on adolescent males (their target demographic!), so you don't get beakies-with-boobs.

I could never understand why people even wanted female beakies. I assume it's a fetish?

One of the problem I think is that people do view 40K as a typical future, when, where Space marines are concerned you should look back the the medieval era and the militant orders during the crusades e.g. the templars, all monks, all brothers. There are no female militant orders other than that of careing (Nursing).

In the 41st millenium there are female militant orders the Sisters of Battle. Women would not be allowed in to the adeptus astartes any women which showed enough promise would be enrolled in to the Sisters. Though astartes are ment to be asexual why present the risk of temptation to the battle brothers?

I see nothing wrong if people want to make femmarines make their own conversions and there own fluff, just don't alter the existing cannon fluff.

Just to counter possable come backs the inspiration of the IG is a mix of armys through the ages included more than a pinch of the soviet army were women served along side men as they are used purly as a meat grinder army. They are trained for combat not to the ame degree as the Sisters or astartes who fill their days with combat training and religious duties Space Marines only have somthing like 15 minutes free time in a day, I imagen the sisters have something similar.

More female miniature is fine , but i really think they should work on improving the sculpting first.

The last thing i want from GW is them thinking female units / army doesnt sell well when in reality the customers just cant stand the ugly sculpts.

Plastic sisters of battles please :'D

More miniatures for factions where there is sexual dimorphism.

I wouldn't mid seeing a forgeworld "Frateris Templar" set for example, as a historical army from before or during the age of Vandire, using Sisters rules as a general base. Perhaps they escaped the Storm of the Emperor's Wrath, and the story has them land on a planet only to be embattled by the Sisters of Battle.

Nor would I mind seeing FSM, but it should just be famale heads as generally speaking the armor and the diet/hormones/enhancements wouldn't leave many other differences. The treatments are started at or before puberty after all, so there wouldn't be that much difference between them and male SM.

But female Orks shouldn't exist any more than male orks don't-- they're asexual, spore-reproducing fungus people, they shouldn't have either gender. They only use "boyz" because the masculine gender is the default for those whose gender we aren't sure about in the Englishi language. I'm sure the"boyz" term in gothic isn't the same as it is in English.

Tau and Eldar could also use it, with Tau being a bit more subtle.

Necrons are under the same thing as Orks, although there probably ARE female necrons, there's no difference between them right now. Simply having a female Necron Lord character along with a fluff tidbit about how they no longer remember or care about gender would be enough.

Hmm actually after i read Melissia's post i changed my mind.

Sisters of Battle please BY Forge World xD

Obsidian wrote:One of the problem I think is that people do view 40K as a typical future, when, where Space marines are concerned you should look back the the medieval era and the militant orders during the crusades e.g. the templars, all monks, all brothers. There are no female militant orders other than that of careing (Nursing). .

I am not overely fond of the idea of female marines - but this was pointed out to me recently which was quite interesting on the subject of female Knights in history.

http://www.heraldica.org/topics/orders/wom-kn.htm

Some snippets

The Order of the HatchetThere is a case of a clearly military order of knighthood for women. It is the order of the Hatchet (orden de la Hacha) in Catalonia. It was founded in 1149 by Raymond Berenger, count of Barcelona, to honor the women who fought for the defense of the town of Tortosa against a Moor attack. The dames admitted to the order received many privileges, including exemption from all taxes, and took precedence over men in public assemblies. I presume the order died out with the original members

Women in the Military Orders[/b]Several established military orders had women who were associated with them, beyond the simple provision of aid. The Teutonic order accepted consorores who assumed the habit of the order and lived under its rule; they undertook menial and hospitaller functions. Later, in the late 12th century, one sees convents dependent on military orders are formed. In the case of the Order of Saint-John (later Malta), they were soeurs hospitalières, and they were the counterparts of the frères prêtres or priest brothers, a quite distinct class from the knights. In England, Buckland was the site of a house of Hospitaller sisters from Henry II's reign to 1540. In Aragon, there were Hospitaller convents in Sigena, San Salvador de Isot, Grisén, Alguaire, headed each by a commendatrix. In France they are found in Beaulieu (near Cahors), Martel and Fieux. The only other military order to have convents by 1300 was the order of Santiago, which had admitted married members since its foundation in 1175. and soon women were admitted and organized into convents of the order (late 12th, early 13th c.). The convents were headed by a commendatrix (in Spanish: commendadora) or prioress. There were a total of six in the late 13th century: Santa Eufenia de Cozuelos in northern Castile, San Spiritu de Salamanca, Santos-o-Vello in Portugal, Destriana near Astorga, San Pedro de la Piedra near Lérida, San Vincente de Junqueres. The order of Calatrava also had a convent in San Felices de los Barrios.

There is likely precedance for most things - for instance many Royal Navy ships in the 18th century had women on board, eitehr as wives, part of the crew - sometimes hidden other times not.

I don't think its that the Imperium is enlightened and allows women to serve in the military but rather it does not allow gender to be an excuse for lack of service be that in the front lines, factories, nursing whatever - there is somewhere one can serve Him

Right, the Imperium isn't enlightened, it just oppresses eveyrone equally.

Field Gen wrote:

Lord Scythican wrote:Okay I admit. I want me some female orks...


There should be female space marines. Heck the two lost chapters could be all female, which is why they were removed from history. HA!

Behold...the reason your stupid to want those.




Why?

Because they exist and are ugly as sin...actually maybe I should had used the word Ignorant. It rather implies that you have not been educated on the ugliness of Female Orks.

Man that is hot!

This Ogre is pretty hot too! I saw her at Baltimore a few years ago!

Hey, isn't that your wife?

Melissia wrote:Hey, isn't that your wife?

I likes them big...

Lord Scythican wrote:

Melissia wrote:Hey, isn't that your wife?

I likes them big...

On the subject on non human cheerleaders - I do have the Khemri cheerleader as a standard bearer in one unit

nice quote - reminds me of a song from a fun film

I like 'em big, I like 'em chunky
I like 'em big, I like 'em plumpy
I like 'em round, with somethin something
They like my sound, they think I'm funky
My name is Moto-Moto, ya you say it double
Say my name girl (Moto-Moto)
Say it again (Moto-moto)
I'm nice and smooth, so nice and sassy (sassy)

etc etc

SoB - Well...
Orks - No - There is no male for female orks
Chaos - They already do. No idea about the ratio of male to female, but both sexes are there
Eldar - As far as I know the Eldar are both male and female, but there armor makes them androgynous.
Tau - As Eldar
Necron - Maybe they do, maybe they don't. I don't know if anyone has checked for anatomical diffrences
Dark Eldar - As Eldar.
Nids - I think they are a mix of male and female, but I don't think this is what the OP was getting at.
IG - Yes. Yes yes yes yes. They should have lots more female minis. All it would take is for GW to make a box of basic troops for us to get working on some conversions! Maybe Cadian box, along with a few metal minis (Officers, Inquisitors, psykers etc). It woulden't take much. Maybe 1 plastic box plus 5 metal minis to start. This would also cover the other human forces, as there is already things like the death cultists and assasins.
Astartes - No. No more than the SoB should have Male members.

Thats just my PoV on it. Basicly I think its fine apart from the guard, who I think have only 1 female mini (The GW site is running ssssooooo ssslllooowww I can't find out.)

There's already been a male Sisters of Battle equivalent in the history. It's just that it's currently outlawed in the Imperium and the only surviving members are stuck in the Storm of the Emperor's Wrath.

Field Gen wrote:Behold...the reason your stupid to want those.

still sexier than Jordan/katie price

Obsidian wrote:One of the problem I think is that people do view 40K as a typical future, when, where Space marines are concerned you should look back the the medieval era and the militant orders during the crusades e.g. the templars, all monks, all brothers. There are no female militant orders other than that of careing (Nursing).

Wow, talk about totally ignoring the Hundred Years War.

MrMorden ninja'd most of my standard reply to this, but, grand total there were something like 37 militant orders for women between 1100 and 1600. Several other militant orders allowed members of either sex, though out of combat they were quartered separately.

@Paul: Incorrect on Eldar. Some of them are clearly male and female. Their armor does not make them androgynous.

@Mellissa: a 'female' necron lord might not be too far out of fluff, considering thy retain a greater amount of their original minds and personality, and gender does play a small role in that.

@Luna: and that more or less addresses the real problem, Most GW female sculpts suck. Maybe they should subcontract to Hasselfree or Reaper or something.

BaronIveagh wrote:

Obsidian wrote:One of the problem I think is that people do view 40K as a typical future, when, where Space marines are concerned you should look back the the medieval era and the militant orders during the crusades e.g. the templars, all monks, all brothers. There are no female militant orders other than that of careing (Nursing).

Wow, talk about totally ignoring the Hundred Years War.

MrMorden ninja'd most of my standard reply to this, but, grand total there were something like 37 militant orders for women between 1100 and 1600. Several other militant orders allowed members of either sex, though out of combat they were quartered separately.

I'm not ignoring anything. The exceptions do not make the rule. 1 female leader does not consitute a order millitant. And if you read my post is does mention women in orders militant in exactly the positions I mentioned 'they undertook menial and hospitaller functions' from the mentioned web page. I will grant you that I missed the Order of the Hatchet but then again this was formed in Spain during an hour of desperate need when under Moorish occupationhad this not been the case than it would not have formed, this is no doubt the case with any other Millitant order which had female fighters.

You want to play that card female fighters were more common during the Roman era in many of the 'barbarian' races than the whole of the medieval period e.g. Boudicca and the Celtic peoples of Britain, Brttiany and Catalonia, infact it was said one of the reasons that the Romans hated fighting the Britions was after thay killed the men they then had to deal with the narked off wife who was just as brutal.

To counter the 18th century argument the women who marched with Wellingtons army were just wives cooking, cleaning bringing up sprogs and 'NOT' front line fighters! There were women who did fight on the front line, but they were disguised as men and the medicals of the era usually consited of the recruting sargent paying the doctor to announce that all men were fit for duty with out even examining them! There was also a group of women who wanted to form a millita for the defence of England, but they were refused the request. Read the the book Following the Drum by Annabel Venning for more on this. I know a lot on this subject as I am a member of the 95th Rifles reenactment society.

Don't get me wrong i'm not against female fighters, there is enough historical evidence for this and as I have said 40k has female millitant orders as the SoB (Order of the Hachet). There is nothing to say I suppose that there arn't women in the Space Marine Fortress Monasteries. After all a Chapter consist of about 1000 marines and countless tharlls who perform the meinal tasks some of these may be women, they serve the Chapter and the order just not as a Space Marine. All this fluff could change for an example in RT the Ultramarines were a 3rd founding chapter with a Half-Eldar Libraian! I think thought over a futher 4 editions most of the fluff has been cemented. There are so many traditions that have been kept in and to change that would be detrimental to those histories and traditions. Saying that I will stress that I have no problem of people converting their own female Space Marines just don't expect GW to do it for you.

Well, I haven't really seen any third party vendors offering acceptable headswaps, either. The closest would be reaper, and those aren't plug & play, so to speak, as they'd all be bald. Not that the alien 3 ripley look is all bad, but I'd prefer at lease some hair.

Melissia wrote:Nor would I mind seeing FSM, but it should just be famale heads as generally speaking the armor and the diet/hormones/enhancements wouldn't leave many other differences. The treatments are started at or before puberty after all, so there wouldn't be that much difference between them and male SM.

After all's said and done, and they've been horrifically mutated into ten foot tall, acid drooling cannibals, how much facial difference would be left between males and females? I'd think the current heads would still work, especially the ones with helmets.

Anything that further humanizes and gives room for more nauseating Mary Sue fluff to Space Marines is bad in my book. They're insane mutants wearing the jumpsuit version of an M1 Abrams who have the tactical acumen of a brick, and that's what they should return to.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Paul wrote:Nids - I think they are a mix of male and female, but I don't think this is what the OP was getting at.

I'm going to go out on a limb and assume that all Tyranids are technically female, as is the case with drones in actual swarms. Considering their reproduction is something along the lines of parthenogenesis crossed with genetic engineering, I doubt the existence of male Tyranids.

BaronIveagh wrote:@Luna: and that more or less addresses the real problem, Most GW female sculpts suck. Maybe they should subcontract to Hasselfree or Reaper or something.

Really, most of the older GW models are pretty terrible, with the occasional exception. From what I've seen, modern ones have a much higher level of quality across the board. The new DE come to mind, here.

Obsidian wrote: I think thought over a futher 4 editions most of the fluff has been cemented. There are so many traditions that have been kept in and to change that would be detrimental to those histories and traditions.

in one book, Grey Knights went from being the most noble and pure of the space marine chapters to being, essentially, khorne berserkers, in a single book the Necrons went from never speaking to being chatterboxes that won't shut up, and where the Blood Angels got a new vehicle without ever referencing where it came from, with explanations varying from "who knows lol" to pretending it had been there all along.

The lore-based arguments hold no water with me as GWS has no problem with radically changing it on a whim.

So far as females go, I don't think Tyranids have either sex really, aren't they generally asexual drones? Except maybe Tervigons... man, I don't know. Let's not go off on this tangent, it's just too weird.

Oh, there are Norm Queens, whom are female Tyranids.

Probably more accurate to say there's likely not a male tyranid.

Melissia wrote:Oh, there are Norm Queens, whom are female Tyranids.

Probably more accurate to say there's likely not a male tyranid.

Without geting too wierd - I guess Genestealer Hybrids count as part of the swarm - however unknowingly - and they retain their gender and as far as I know normal reproductive methods - just the product is......different.

pity there is not a Hybrid army list any more :(

Sir Pseudonymous wrote:
I'm going to go out on a limb and assume that all Tyranids are technically female, as is the case with drones in actual swarms.

Actually, if you're refering to bees, 'drones' specifically refers to males. Workers are female.

I always assumed Tyranids were androgynous.

Also, I would sell a vital organ for a model of the Inquisitor from DoW2: Ret.

Cerebrium wrote:I always assumed Tyranids were androgynous.

Also, I would sell a vital organ for a model of the Inquisitor from DoW2: Ret.

You should see my tdongfex and tervititz conversions...

Cerebrium wrote:I always assumed Tyranids were androgynous.

Depends on their genetics...

For example, for those using the XX/XY system, females are the default gender of the species, while males are the genetic adaptation to produce sexual reproduction.

But more than likely they use a form of Haplodiploidy, where unfertilized eggs develop into halpoid individuals (haploid = one copy of each gene, diploid = two copies, like humans have) which are effectively male. Most diploids in this setup are female, but can also be infertile males. This is common for hive based insects, such s ants or wasps.

Then again, there's also the reptilian aspect of tyranids-- reptiles do not depend on genetics for sex determination (it's based on the temperature and other conditions of the surrounding environment). Which would make sense from a certain standpoint, perhaps sexual reproductive abilities in its creatures are only activated through certain environmental factors, or through the synapse link-- the hive mind causing them to "go native" if it is unable to bring reinforcements for them, causing them to have a larger chance of disrupting the defense of the planet while it brings reinforcements to bear.

Cerebrium wrote:Also, I would sell a vital organ for a model of the Inquisitor from DoW2: Ret.

She is indeed very cool looking. I love her hat.

Apparently the orks do to

Ouze wrote:

Obsidian wrote: I think thought over a futher 4 editions most of the fluff has been cemented. There are so many traditions that have been kept in and to change that would be detrimental to those histories and traditions.

in one book, Grey Knights went from being the most noble and pure of the space marine chapters to being, essentially, khorne berserkers, in a single book the Necrons went from never speaking to being chatterboxes that won't shut up, and where the Blood Angels got a new vehicle without ever referencing where it came from, with explanations varying from "who knows lol" to pretending it had been there all along.

The lore-based arguments hold no water with me as GWS has no problem with radically changing it on a whim.

So far as females go, I don't think Tyranids have either sex really, aren't they generally asexual drones? Except maybe Tervigons... man, I don't know. Let's not go off on this tangent, it's just too weird.

The same happend to the Eldar from the Eldar fron the 2nd ed to the 3rd ed. They went form being the good guys (which was how every one saw them at the time) to being a race that would gladly slaughter every being on a planet men, women and children to save one Eldar life! The likely hood is that the Grey Knights were starting to be seen as this 'good guy' army of the Imperium so had to go through the Grim Dark makeover. A makeover which is much less fundamental to the 40k lore than the making of a Space Marine. When the next Tau Codex comes out no doubt they will also have a Grim Dark makeover too as they are also starting to be seen as goodie goodies!

Obsidian wrote:
I'm not ignoring anything. The exceptions do not make the rule. 1 female leader does not consitute a order millitant. And if you read my post is does mention women in orders militant in exactly the positions I mentioned 'they undertook menial and hospitaller functions' from the mentioned web page. I will grant you that I missed the Order of the Hatchet but then again this was formed in Spain during an hour of desperate need when under Moorish occupationhad this not been the case than it would not have formed, this is no doubt the case with any other Millitant order which had female fighters.

Oh? How about The Cordeliere? Est 1498 by Annede Bretagne, Widow of Charles VIII of France.

Or this lovely account...

"Among the Franks there were indeed women who rode into battle with cuirasses and helmets, dressed in men's clothes; who rode out into the thick of the fray and acted like brave men although they were but tender women, maintaining that all this was an act of piety, thinking to gain heavenly rewards by it, and making it their way of life. Praise be to him who led them into such error and out of the paths of wisdom! On the day of battle more than one woman rode out with them like a knight and
showed (masculine) endurance in spite of the weakness (of her sex); clothed only in a coat of mail they were not recognized as women until they had been stripped of their arms. Some of them were discovered and sold as slaves." - Francisco Gabrieli. Arab Historians of the Crusades pg 207, from a translation of Imad al Din's account of the battle of Hattin. This was also commented on by Ibn al Athir.

Or how about the Knights of Saint Mary, which allowed women in combat, who, at the order of Pope Urban IV - "are to be allowed to bear arms for the defence of the catholic faith and ecclesiastical freedom, when specifically required to do so by the Roman church. For subduing civil discords they may carry only defensive weapons, provided they have the permission of the diocesan."
Of course, they were later suppressed by Pope Sixtus V.

According to Guibert of Nogent, Emperor Conrad III, during the second Crusade, brought with him a "troop of Amazons", who's ultimate fate was left unrecorded, though most likely they died at the second battle of Dorylaeum, with 9/10ths of the rest of his army.


As far as Spain goes, it was common for quite some time after Reconquesta (and, indeed, in one case to this very day) for militant orders to permit women entry and the right to bare arms. France and the Low Countries also had this, though to a lesser degree. This could have something to do with Spain having had women under arms since Roman times. Despite their rather odd views on women in other periods (Inquisition).

"The example is of the Noble Women of Tortosa in Aragon, and recorded by Josef Micheli Marquez, who plainly calls them Cavalleros or Knights, or may I not rather say Cavalleras, seeing I observe the words Equitissae and Militissae (formed from the Latin Equites and Milites) heretofore applied to Women..." - Ashmole, The Institution, Laws, and Ceremony of the Most Noble Order of the Garter (1672)

Obsidian wrote:
You want to play that card female fighters were more common during the Roman era in many of the 'barbarian' races than the whole of the medieval period e.g. Boudicca and the Celtic peoples of Britain, Brttiany and Catalonia, infact it was said one of the reasons that the Romans hated fighting the Britions was after thay killed the men they then had to deal with the narked off wife who was just as brutal.

While supposedly a large number of Breton and Pict warriors were female, my favorite was always Marius against the the Cimbri and the Teutons. Marius reported that when the battle went poorly for the men, the women emerged from their wagon castles with swords and threatened their own men to ensure that they would continue to fight. After reinforcements arrived for the Romans, the Cimbrian men all were killed, but the women continued to fight. When the Cimbrian women saw that defeat was imminent, they killed their children and committed suicide rather than be taken as captives.

Obsidian wrote:
To counter the 18th century argument the women who marched with Wellingtons army were just wives cooking, cleaning bringing up sprogs and 'NOT' front line fighters! There were women who did fight on the front line, but they were disguised as men and the medicals of the era usually consited of the recruting sargent paying the doctor to announce that all men were fit for duty with out even examining them! There was also a group of women who wanted to form a millita for the defence of England, but they were refused the request. Read the the book Following the Drum by Annabel Venning for more on this. I know a lot on this subject as I am a member of the 95th Rifles reenactment society.

'To think I lay with a thousand men
and a maiden all the while!'

And how does the 95th give you insight on the 18th Century? They only went into the line in 1800 at Copenhagen as RN snipers, IIRC. That would be the 19th Century, wouldn't it? [As a member of the 116th PVI, I know something about the 19th Century (And didn't I smoke some of your guys at Ridgeway in Canada a few years ago? Or was that the Queen's Own? I get the two confused on occasion.)]

BaronIveagh wrote:

Obsidian wrote:
I'm not ignoring anything. The exceptions do not make the rule. 1 female leader does not consitute a order millitant. And if you read my post is does mention women in orders militant in exactly the positions I mentioned 'they undertook menial and hospitaller functions' from the mentioned web page. I will grant you that I missed the Order of the Hatchet but then again this was formed in Spain during an hour of desperate need when under Moorish occupationhad this not been the case than it would not have formed, this is no doubt the case with any other Millitant order which had female fighters.

Oh? How about The Cordeliere? Est 1498 by Annede Bretagne, Widow of Charles VIII of France.

Or this lovely account...

"Among the Franks there were indeed women who rode into battle with cuirasses and helmets, dressed in men's clothes; who rode out into the thick of the fray and acted like brave men although they were but tender women, maintaining that all this was an act of piety, thinking to gain heavenly rewards by it, and making it their way of life. Praise be to him who led them into such error and out of the paths of wisdom! On the day of battle more than one woman rode out with them like a knight and
showed (masculine) endurance in spite of the weakness (of her sex); clothed only in a coat of mail they were not recognized as women until they had been stripped of their arms. Some of them were discovered and sold as slaves." - Francisco Gabrieli. Arab Historians of the Crusades pg 207, from a translation of Imad al Din's account of the battle of Hattin. This was also commented on by Ibn al Athir.

Or how about the Knights of Saint Mary, which allowed women in combat, who, at the order of Pope Urban IV - "are to be allowed to bear arms for the defence of the catholic faith and ecclesiastical freedom, when specifically required to do so by the Roman church. For subduing civil discords they may carry only defensive weapons, provided they have the permission of the diocesan."
Of course, they were later suppressed by Pope Sixtus V.

According to Guibert of Nogent, Emperor Conrad III, during the second Crusade, brought with him a "troop of Amazons", who's ultimate fate was left unrecorded, though most likely they died at the second battle of Dorylaeum, with 9/10ths of the rest of his army.


As far as Spain goes, it was common for quite some time after Reconquesta (and, indeed, in one case to this very day) for militant orders to permit women entry and the right to bare arms. France and the Low Countries also had this, though to a lesser degree. This could have something to do with Spain having had women under arms since Roman times. Despite their rather odd views on women in other periods (Inquisition).

"The example is of the Noble Women of Tortosa in Aragon, and recorded by Josef Micheli Marquez, who plainly calls them Cavalleros or Knights, or may I not rather say Cavalleras, seeing I observe the words Equitissae and Militissae (formed from the Latin Equites and Milites) heretofore applied to Women..." - Ashmole, The Institution, Laws, and Ceremony of the Most Noble Order of the Garter (1672)

Obsidian wrote:
You want to play that card female fighters were more common during the Roman era in many of the 'barbarian' races than the whole of the medieval period e.g. Boudicca and the Celtic peoples of Britain, Brttiany and Catalonia, infact it was said one of the reasons that the Romans hated fighting the Britions was after thay killed the men they then had to deal with the narked off wife who was just as brutal.

While supposedly a large number of Breton and Pict warriors were female, my favorite was always Marius against the the Cimbri and the Teutons. Marius reported that when the battle went poorly for the men, the women emerged from their wagon castles with swords and threatened their own men to ensure that they would continue to fight. After reinforcements arrived for the Romans, the Cimbrian men all were killed, but the women continued to fight. When the Cimbrian women saw that defeat was imminent, they killed their children and committed suicide rather than be taken as captives.

Obsidian wrote:
To counter the 18th century argument the women who marched with Wellingtons army were just wives cooking, cleaning bringing up sprogs and 'NOT' front line fighters! There were women who did fight on the front line, but they were disguised as men and the medicals of the era usually consited of the recruting sargent paying the doctor to announce that all men were fit for duty with out even examining them! There was also a group of women who wanted to form a millita for the defence of England, but they were refused the request. Read the the book Following the Drum by Annabel Venning for more on this. I know a lot on this subject as I am a member of the 95th Rifles reenactment society.

'To think I lay with a thousand men
and a maiden all the while!'

And how does the 95th give you insight on the 18th Century? They only went into the line in 1800 at Copenhagen as RN snipers, IIRC. That would be the 19th Century, wouldn't it? [As a member of the 116th PVI, I know something about the 19th Century (And didn't I smoke some of your guys at Ridgeway in Canada a few years ago? Or was that the Queen's Own? I get the two confused on occasion.)]

I don't want to get in to a long discussion on this and take this thread OT but some of the sources you have cited have dubious merit and many are out right refuted. But i'm not a trained historian as such i'm a Geologist but I do know about sources. but we will have to agree to disagree on this one . There may have been female knightly orders but they were nowhere near the 'norm'. Its like seiges very rarely was a castle captured but it was so extrodanary when they did a lot more was written about it and there is a lot more interest was taken.

As for the 95th question doing the historical reenactment you get asked questions form all aspects of the Napoleonic period and a bit beyond which means learning more than just the regimental history we go back as far as ferguson's rifles which served in the American War of Independence Who supposedly had General Washington in their sights but did not shoot out of good manners (though I find this account doubtful ).

'To think I lay with a thousand men
and a maiden all the while!'

Steeleye Span Did a good version of this song. Loosly based on Hannah Snell who served in both the Army and the Navy disguised as a man as well as a few other accounts.

Obsidian wrote:
I don't want to get in to a long discussion on this and take this thread OT but some of the sources you have cited have dubious merit and many are out right refuted.

It's a tough nut. In reality, any account can be challenged. The most famous of one I can recall off the top of my head was a refutation that Napoleon Bonaparte existed (and that he was, in fact, mythological), while he was still very much alive.

The problem is that there are only five accounts of Hattin. I used Imad al Din as he was actually present. Some of the refutations of the account are contradictory themselves, pointing out both that the Christians would not have recorded it as an embarrassment to them and in the same paragraph claiming they would have because it was unusual. The authors forget that you cannot have it both ways.

Personally, it would not surprise me if there were, as at least two of the orders mentioned to be present allowed women in their ranks. I would suggest that, as a specific number is not mentioned, it may be that a handful of women were present under arms.

It's sort of like machine guns used during the American Civil War. Most experts will swear on a stack of bibles that they were never used, but I can produce fifteen accounts of them being used in combat. Were they widespread or the norm? No. But they did exist.


However, I would suggest tha5t PMs would be a better place to discuss this.

BaronIveagh wrote:
However, I would suggest that PMs would be a better place to discuss this.

Agreed. I'm acctualy intrested in filling some of my gaps in my historical knowlege.

Yes there should be some more Female figures for those armies that make sense for them to be in. Personally I'd like to see a well sculpted fig for the female inquisitor from DoW2-retribution that looks rather Solomon Kane esque. Female Eldar farseers as well.