http://www.petitionspot.com/petitions/StopMattWard/

As a result of the recent GK fluff I started this petition, deciding that enough's enough. I've put up with everything up to and including Necrons having a tea party with Blood Angels, but when he screwed over the Grey Knights I'd had enough, see here for further details on that:

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/357650.page

Taking Gorgarak's advise I'm posting it here, we appreciate every signiture and hopefully something will be done about this, this time

It's more that the entire team allows that stuff. He's not the only one writing.

And the best way is to vote with your dollar. Don't buy the books or models.

I have never in my entire life see an internet petition amount to anything. But yes, it's not like Mat is solely responsible for the fluff in his books, I'm sure the codex writers don't work in total isolatement of each other.

Seems... interesting.... I don't support it though.

The Power Cosmic wrote:It's more that the entire team allows that stuff. He's not the only one writing.

And the best way is to vote with your dollar. Don't buy the books or models.

sadly he was the only one the wrote it. and the editor was himself.

The Power Cosmic wrote:

And the best way is to vote with your dollar. Don't buy the books or models.

THIS, THIS, THIS and more THIS. I see far too many people constantly crying about GW, then turning around and continuing to buy their products.

If youve truly had enough then just stop buying and playing their games. There are plenty of other mini games out there, GW is not the end-all be-all of gaming.

I still buy GW minis now and then because I really like some of them. As for actually playing the games...nope.

Mad4Minis wrote:

The Power Cosmic wrote:

And the best way is to vote with your dollar. Don't buy the books or models.

THIS, THIS, THIS and more THIS. I see far too many people constantly crying about GW, then turning around and continuing to buy their products.

If youve truly had enough then just stop buying and playing their games. There are plenty of other mini games out there, GW is not the end-all be-all of gaming.

I still buy GW minis now and then because I really like some of them. As for actually playing the games...nope.

We are moaning because it is a good game ruined by people like matt making rediculous armies and destroying 40k fluff because they are incompitent! we still buy from gw because it is a great game and therefore should get an opinion when someone it up.

As long as Matt Ward does not touch the horus hersey and the Adeptus Custodes I will be happy, and I won't hire a hitman to delete his facebook page.

taylor048 wrote:We are moaning because it is a good game ruined by people like matt making rediculous armies and destroying 40k fluff because they are incompitent!

Yes, how dare GW exercise creative control over their own fictional setting!

I don't think this petition goes far enough, to be honest. It's not enough to stop one writer. Every new piece of fluff GW wants to publish should be run past an approval committee made up of gamers experienced with all 5 editions of Warhammer 40K, and double-checked to ensure that it doesn't contradict previous fluff or in any way expand on anything that has been previously laid out in the background.

Enough of this 'adding depth' to the setting. Everybody knows that keeping everything exactly the same for all time is the only way to grow the hobby!



Or, just an idea... but maybe we could all just accept that it's a totally made up and not particularly serious setting for a game of toy soldiers, and find more important things to get all riled up about?

taylor048 wrote:

We are moaning because it is a good game ruined by people like matt making rediculous armies and destroying 40k fluff because they are incompitent! we still buy from gw because it is a great game and therefore should get an opinion when someone it up.

Really? Really? You are really making a fuss about someone being RIDICULOUS and INCOMPETENT while misspelling these words and not using punctuation? Gamers amaze me...

I love your Sarcasm. Its so beautiful

DAMN NINJA'D!

JHall wrote:

taylor048 wrote:

We are moaning because it is a good game ruined by people like matt making rediculous armies and destroying 40k fluff because they are incompitent! we still buy from gw because it is a great game and therefore should get an opinion when someone it up.

Really? Really? You are really making a fuss about someone being RIDICULOUS and INCOMPETENT while misspelling these words and not using punctuation? Gamers amaze me...

Wow man sorry for being dyslexic!!!

insaniak wrote:

taylor048 wrote:We are moaning because it is a good game ruined by people like matt making rediculous armies and destroying 40k fluff because they are incompitent!

Yes, how dare GW exercise creative control over their own fictional setting!

I don't think this petition goes far enough, to be honest. It's not enough to stop one writer. Every new piece of fluff GW wants to publish should be run past an approval committee made up of gamers experienced with all 5 editions of Warhammer 40K, and double-checked to ensure that it doesn't contradict previous fluff or in any way expand on anything that has been previously laid out in the background.

Enough of this 'adding depth' to the setting. Everybody knows that keeping everything exactly the same for all time is the only way to grow the hobby!



Or, just an idea... but maybe we could all just accept that it's a totally made up and not particularly serious setting for a game of toy soldiers, and find more important things to get all riled up about?

I think its perfectly reasonable to get riled up over his writing
It's terrible
Simple as that
For many of us, the background is what keeps us playing, the rules certainly aren't strong enough on their own to make people stay
Matt Ward not only writes terribly, but a majority of what he writes clashes with the internal cosistency of the universe as a whole

People can add things, look at Dark Eldar, essentially an additon to what was barebones and that was well received across the board
Matt Ward on the other hand writes things like the Blood Tides story or heroes like Draigo, which add nothing to the story and setting and instead cheapen it with acts of such sheer OTT which break the rules of the established setting so completely, that there is no point calling it 40k

You have characters killing hundreds of Orks as if they are no threat, yet Pre Heresy the Emperor nearly got killed by one, just to name a example
Every single character and story he writes cheapens the setting that its based on and its my most ardent hope that he either gets fired, or moved to a area where he can't harm the background anymore than he has

I don't think this petition will get anywhere either, but the guy HAS to be removed from where he is.

Asuron wrote:

insaniak wrote:

taylor048 wrote:We are moaning because it is a good game ruined by people like matt making rediculous armies and destroying 40k fluff because they are incompitent!

Yes, how dare GW exercise creative control over their own fictional setting!

I don't think this petition goes far enough, to be honest. It's not enough to stop one writer. Every new piece of fluff GW wants to publish should be run past an approval committee made up of gamers experienced with all 5 editions of Warhammer 40K, and double-checked to ensure that it doesn't contradict previous fluff or in any way expand on anything that has been previously laid out in the background.

Enough of this 'adding depth' to the setting. Everybody knows that keeping everything exactly the same for all time is the only way to grow the hobby!



Or, just an idea... but maybe we could all just accept that it's a totally made up and not particularly serious setting for a game of toy soldiers, and find more important things to get all riled up about?

I think its perfectly reasonable to get riled up over his writing
It's terrible
Simple as that
For many of us, the background is what keeps us playing, the rules certainly aren't strong enough on their own to make people stay
Matt Ward not only writes terribly, but a majority of what he writes clashes with the internal cosistency of the universe as a whole

People can add things, look at Dark Eldar, essentially an additon to what was barebones and that was well received across the board
Matt Ward on the other hand writes things like the Blood Tides story or heroes like Draigo, which add nothing to the story and setting and instead cheapen it with acts of such sheer OTT which break the rules of the established setting so completely, that there is no point calling it 40k

You have characters killing hundreds of Orks as if they are no threat, yet Pre Heresy the Emperor nearly got killed by one, just to name a example
Every single character and story he writes cheapens the setting that its based on and its my most ardent hope that he either gets fired, or moved to a area where he can't harm the background anymore than he has

I don't think this petition will get anywhere either, but the guy HAS to be removed from where he is.

I believe Auson is the voice of dakkadakka on this. Agreed anyone?

Asuron wrote:Matt Ward not only writes terribly, but a majority of what he writes clashes with the internal cosistency of the universe as a whole

No, it clashes with how certain people view the 'universe as a whole'...

GW have a very different view to their setting to that of some gamers.



This sort of petition seems to ignore the fact that none of GW's writers do their work in a vaccuum. I can just picture the meeting between the head of the design studio and GW's marketing guys, where they're all trying to figure out how this Matt Ward character manages to keep getting codexes published without them being approved...

GW, and more specifically the design studio, are the ones who establish just how the setting of Warhammer 40K fits together. So when it comes down to whether you think that something belongs in that setting, or someone in the design studio feels that it belongs in that setting, it's not really much of a contest. The studio is inherently in the right here, due to being the ones in charge of creating and maintaining that setting that they built.

This petition isn't very well written, personally I hate Matt Ward's work, its utter drivel at best I feel as though he takes an interesting and vast universe but tries to make it adhere more to the plot of an 80's superhero cartoon. However, I simply ignore it, the 40k universe is so vast you can just simply write your own fluff. Have fun with YOUR creations, demanding that an employee be fired for simply writing what he likes (although terrible) sounds a bit facist.

As for rules I am noticing a trend in these new releases and I think the marketing department is more to blame, I have a creeping suspicion that these OOT rules are penned simply to help move product, in 40k there is such a gap between old and new content that some players feel the need to update their armies for fear of dropping off the competitive spectrum, and then there are the bandwagon jumpers, who deserve to die.

/rant

Redemption wrote:I have never in my entire life see an internet petition amount to anything.

depends on the petition. a legally binding petition is a powerful tool in a democratic society. over 500k canadians signed the petition at stopthemeter.ca, and have forced parliament to intervene in the case of usage based billing.

insaniak wrote:I don't think this petition goes far enough, to be honest. It's not enough to stop one writer. Every new piece of fluff GW wants to publish should be run past an approval committee made up of gamers experienced with all 5 editions of Warhammer 40K, and double-checked to ensure that it doesn't contradict previous fluff or in any way expand on anything that has been previously laid out in the background.

Funny you should say that, because that's exactly what they do with BattleTech. They have a cadre of 'fact checkers', made up of play testers and freelance writers, and they specifically ensure consistency with all the products and try to weed out areas where the fluff has fallen down.

insaniak wrote:Enough of this 'adding depth' to the setting. Everybody knows that keeping everything exactly the same for all time is the only way to grow the hobby!

Really? You call the GK Codex fluff "adding depth" to the setting? I call it going from one shallow pool to another slightly different shallow pool.

Online petitions do eff-all. Best bet? Go to Games Day and tell it to his face.

Hit em where it hurts and don't buy the shiny new stuff.
On line petitions will not worry the shareholders.

Of course GW may add to and change the fluff and make new stuff up. But the real creativity and design comes from working within the parameters and being consistent within that framework. This is where I understand the vet GK players frustrations.

Making new stuff up that contradicts the existing concepts is only creative in a limited sense.

Online petition, yeah... that'll work.

Want to make GW listen, hit them in the wallet! Don't buy their stuff!

I love 40k. Hate the new GK fluff. Guess what? I'm not buying the book or the GK models. As a business, they only thing they listen to is either the ka-ching of the cash register getting that gamer money or the crickets of silence as their product gathers dust. Anything else is just the buzzing of gnats in their corporate ears.

Let your money do the talking instead of the "ooooh new SHINY must buy! Here's my money even though you put Matrix-mechs with babycarriers in the fluff and called them dreadknights!"

Only will sales numbers dictate whether Matt Ward is a viable author. If people buy his stuff and GW makes a profit, he'll stay. If the stuff tanks and gathers dust, believe me, they'll make him leave.

Chibi Bodge-Battle wrote:Hit em where it hurts and don't buy the shiny new stuff.
On line petitions will not worry the shareholders.

You bet your ass they will, but only if the petition is legitimate and the consequence of ignoring it is represented in dollars and cents by conspicuous financial consequence. That is, the peition has to be backed by conscientious consumers who are willing to talk with thier pocketbooks.

If the shareholders receive a hard copy of a petition with twenty thousand or more signatures on it (real signatures with real names-- not "orckilla83@hotmail.com"--saying "I spend XXX dollars on your product annually, and hereby retract my business until such time as X Y and Z issues are resolved") and see revenue drops commensurate with those numbers, you can bet the farm that they'll sit up and pay attention and Matt Ward will be hitting bricks before the week is out.

Hitting them in the pocketbook is great--but if the beancounters know where their losses are coming from, they'll pay attention and work to remedy the problem from the source indicated by the customers' dismay--don't kid yourself about that. Imagine that you own a restaurant. A considerable amount of customers from the cable company up the street who frequently use your restaurant for business meetings and lunch breaks make a formal written notice to you that unless you deal with Mary the waitress' attitude they will retract their business. Knowing, being a good business owner, that one lost customer is worth 15 lost customers by word of mouth, are you going to keep Mary and lose your best customers, or terminate/discipline/replace her and keep them?

Has anyone ever considered that changes in fluff indicate a grander shift in game as a whole?

I may be giving too much credit to people but what if they have plans, changing a few key bits here and there, allowing them to expand armies, add more fluff from new aliens, etc?

Just q quick question, but do we actually get any visitors to this site from GW that we could ask about why their fluff is filled with spikes and needles and other uncaringly cruel things?

Sign the on line petition by all means, it isn't an either/or option. The two actions are not mutually exclusive. But if people still go out and buy the products what is going to make them sit up and listen?

They already know what people think. Do they give a space orang-utan? Nah.
Because they know the adoring fans will still flock to feed on the new crop of corn.


Edit: actually I retract that about the petition
see post below.

Alternatively, don't buy them if you don't like them, try not to lynch anyone and restrain yourself from having a tantrum because something changed!

Things change. All the time. Some people can't handle it. Most people can.

It doesn't help that so many forum users seem to 'develop' their personal opinions based on what is popularly controversial, hyped-up with a complete lack of consistency in regards to real-life communities.

I'm not saying that everyone who uses forums and agrees with someone else is a bandwagoneer, but it's a disturbing phenomenon that's difficult to ignore. So Mat is the new Jervis. Or Gav. Or Phil. You might as well get over it now because everyone eventually will anyway, save for the usual snivelling basement wargame theorists.

Some of Australia's best tournament players have voiced their opinions to me immediately after reading the GK codex... and they all pretty much agreed that many of the units therein were extremely powerful. I haven't seen anyone in real life actually upset about it - probably because they hadn't played any real games with it. Last week I observed several games against MEQ armies that resulted in complete tablings of the GK's opposition, but on the other hand the players involved tended to do that anyway.

I agree that GKs are powerful - and they should be. I know that they are a hard counter to Daemons and Psykers - as they should also be. I disagree that Mat Ward should be 'stopped' - besides, the meteor already hit. It's like saying tsunamis are totally the suck and should be stopped. A little bit late to put up sandbags now, folks. I'm going to put on some sunglasses, and I recommend that you try to Deal With It, because one way or another you're (presuming you aren't a coward) going to play against GKs if you actually play Warhammer 40K.

Starting tomorrow (since I was at work today) I intend to get as many games in with my Daemons against as many GK players as possible, and I'll be damned if I'm going to blame the author of a wargaming supplement for my potentially losing any games. Besides, I'm of the firm opinion that if you can't enjoy losing a game, then you're only truly experiencing half of what wargaming can be!

...

Please, no one agree with me. You'll just invalidate my opinion.

From what I understand it is not so much any over powered cheese in the codex but more the fluff being screwed that has got up players noses, Arctik.

(Puts on Flame Retardant Suit) I don't mind Matt Ward's work. I like the new BA codex and the GK codex as well. It is nice to see a long time SM player like myself have an advantage after years of fighting Nids and Guard. Sorry, hate all you want, but sales are up at GW and it appears, despite the "fanboy" drama to be hitting thier niche consumer base right in the nose.

Shouldn't you all be blaming Alan Bligh? Isn't it his job to be the big fact checker at GW? I mean they're paying the man to go to work every day and read Black Library novels and codex fluff.

I remember an interview with Dan Abnett that Bligh actually gave him the go ahead for the 2 big twists in Legion (the horus heresy book) even though Dan though they were just to OTT for 40k.

The blame game.

If the petition had not been specifically asking GW to fire someone and been a more carefully thought out protest I would have considered signing.

To ask a company and to sack someone over this issue is at best immature and at worst a malicious personal attack.
Sleep deprivation dulled my thinking and I initially missed the implications. The OP title should be changed as I was under the impression the petition was to ask GW to stop messing with fluff.

I also apologise to Insaniak whose post now makes a lot of sense.
Still think the best way to influence any business is to vote with the wallet. Not my philosophy but that of campaigners of all persuassions, so ther might actually be something in it.

If Matt Ward was a child molestor/rapist/Facist git then by all means get rid.
Since afaik he is none of those things and merely written an army book not to ones' taste, then asking directly to sack him is just plain old not gonna happen.

Man, I can't wait for necrons to be released, I can see it now. Stop (insert author here) petition!

Ward is the main architect behind Fantasy 8th. He wrote the flagship book for 40K at the moment and is writing a whole lot more.
They're not going to can him because some demonstrably over sensitive internet people signed a petition.
We can all say "vote with your wallet" til the cows come home but in the end we know it's going to make little difference. 40K is being marketed to teenage boys, same as ever. The difference seems to be that now a patronizing approach to what teenage boys will consider cool is being taken. This has been going on for a few years. And I don't think they are really wrong in their assessment, sadly.

The Night Stalker wrote:Man, I can't wait for necrons to be released, I can see it now. Stop (insert author here) petition!

QFT

Is this an April Fool's joke?

Fetterkey wrote:Is this an April Fool's joke?

Sadly no.

Maxstreel wrote:Online petition, yeah... that'll work.

Want to make GW listen, hit them in the wallet! Don't buy their stuff!

I love 40k. Hate the new GK fluff. Guess what? I'm not buying the book or the GK models. As a business, they only thing they listen to is either the ka-ching of the cash register getting that gamer money or the crickets of silence as their product gathers dust. Anything else is just the buzzing of gnats in their corporate ears.

Let your money do the talking instead of the "ooooh new SHINY must buy! Here's my money even though you put Matrix-mechs with babycarriers in the fluff and called them dreadknights!"

Only will sales numbers dictate whether Matt Ward is a viable author. If people buy his stuff and GW makes a profit, he'll stay. If the stuff tanks and gathers dust, believe me, they'll make him leave.

Sales have been in decline for a long time now
They haven't changed policies, they've gotten worse
What makes you think they'll change now?

@Artick
The issue I think isn't with the rules, like you said we don't know a whole lot about them yet
Rather its with the background
It is terrible
Just look up the Blood Tides story, Draigo, Castellan Crowe, the logic behind Purifiers, Titan or anything else in that book
It really is that bad

The policies will never change, its simple marketing practices, GW constantly hypes up new releases using shiny things and rules that appear to be so OTT that it appeals to the younger gamers, every new release also widens the gap between the old and new content.

The Night Stalker wrote:The policies will never change, its simple marketing practices, GW constantly hypes up new releases using shiny things and rules that appear to be so OTT that it appeals to the younger gamers, every new release also widens the gap between the old and new content.

Funny how video gamers say the exact same thing as they mature, eh?

OTOH it is necessary to move foward, I also think that many people are upset about the GK release because they feel like their armies are getting bashed (chaos and demons). but patience is a virtue and just wait until your army gets a makeover, believe me the day they start remaking the chaos codex i'm throwing a friggen parade.

The Night Stalker wrote:OTOH it is necessary to move foward, I also think that many people are upset about the GK release because they feel like their armies are getting bashed (chaos and demons). but patience is a virtue and just wait until your army gets a makeover, believe me the day they start remaking the chaos codex i'm throwing a friggen parade.

No I am Vanillia Marine player, and a Former Grey Knight Player... ITs just the fluff upsets the balance and the fact that Grey Knights Honorable and not slaughterers of innocents who had nothing to do with anything.

I love that people get so riled up over fluff, when half my 40K group have never read anything about the fluff and could care less because it's a GAME.

Platuan4th wrote:I love that people get so riled up over fluff, when half my 40K group have never read anything about the fluff and could care less because it's a GAME.

Ever stop and think that not everybody shares you opinion? Yes it is a game, but it also has a very rich backstory that encompasses tons of novels and expansions, some people love their backstory. I am quite fond of the fluff because it allows for some truly interesting games if you and you mates want to put together an actual campaign, and when a single writer starts screwing with the foundations its bound to get some people upset.

So you can choose to ignore the fluff if you want but others love it.

Asherian Command wrote:

The Night Stalker wrote:OTOH it is necessary to move foward, I also think that many people are upset about the GK release because they feel like their armies are getting bashed (chaos and demons). but patience is a virtue and just wait until your army gets a makeover, believe me the day they start remaking the chaos codex i'm throwing a friggen parade.

No I am Vanillia Marine player, and a Former Grey Knight Player... ITs just the fluff upsets the balance and the fact that Grey Knights Honorable and not slaughterers of innocents who had nothing to do with anything.

Wait a second... Grey Knights absolutely are renowned slaughterers of innocents, if only because the Imperial concept of innocence is negligible. This isn't new.

Neither are Jokaero for that matter. Unrelated to your post, but I'm sick of hearing "What's with the space monkeys? This isn't 40K!" What the hell are kids smoking these days?

Arctik_Firangi wrote:

Asherian Command wrote:

The Night Stalker wrote:OTOH it is necessary to move foward, I also think that many people are upset about the GK release because they feel like their armies are getting bashed (chaos and demons). but patience is a virtue and just wait until your army gets a makeover, believe me the day they start remaking the chaos codex i'm throwing a friggen parade.

No I am Vanillia Marine player, and a Former Grey Knight Player... ITs just the fluff upsets the balance and the fact that Grey Knights Honorable and not slaughterers of innocents who had nothing to do with anything.

Wait a second... Grey Knights absolutely are renowned slaughterers of innocents, if only because the Imperial concept of innocence is negligible. This isn't new.

Neither are Jokaero for that matter. Unrelated to your post, but I'm sick of hearing "What's with the space monkeys? This isn't 40K!" What the hell are kids smoking these days?

Actually I am fine with the monkey. It looks funny, It gave me a good laugh. But if you read their lore from matt ward it contradicts the current lore. With the Grey Knights. And they don't even mention anything about any of the more famous Grand Masters......
It kind a pissed me off they invented so many new characters that have never been mentioned before. Hell I would of settled with having Justicar Alraic as a Grand Master!
Its just They should of stayed with the current character selection... There are tons of characters in the Grey Knight's Books and from 40k lore that could be perfect Heroes!

Platuan4th wrote:I love that people get so riled up over fluff, when half my 40K group have never read anything about the fluff and could care less because it's a GAME.

I love how people cannot see other peoples' perspectives.
There is nowt wrong with playing without reference to fluff. Some people prefer just to concentrate on rules and strategy. That is perfectly acceptable.
But others enjoy the background narrative and find that it enriches their enjoyment of said GAME.
People invest time, energy, cash and dare I say a little passion into their hobby.

So all things considered it is no surprise that folks sometimes get upset.
In the greater scheme of things it is trivial, but given this is a gaming forum ie a place for openly discussing gaming, it also seems reasonable that people vent their frustrations now and again

Well okay, all the time.
But I would be more concerned if everyone just behaved compliantly than complained.

You know in the end its up to GW corporate to approve or disapprove stuff. Its their IP and they can do with it what they want. Im not sticking up for GW but that is the truth.

But in the same token, you have every right to petition and to let those know. As someone who works in the field of information science, most corporations largely ignore online petitions and mostly look towards normal snail mail and company surveys for feedback. Your cause is best served doing a letter campaign and while a few emails might go into the trash can, 200 or so written letters by people who took their time to voice their complaints about a product will peak someone's attention.

Of course be courteous and voice your reasons for the displeasure of the product.

Good luck and I hope this helps.

Yes, WH40K is just a game, but so is Monopoly, or RISK or Chess.

But what makes WH40K different from those games? What makes you sit up all night choosing which colour to will paint your new SM army? or what evil tokens to place on your new Chaos Champions Banner?....simple answer, the fluff.

The fluff is what makes a table top wargame so much more than Chess, or Monoploy or any other game you simply pick up, play and put back into its box when your done.

So when people try to come across all High and Mighty, and sooo above the "nerd rage", by stating that "it's just a game of toy soldiers" I really have to laugh.....as you're actually belittling the very thing that moves you to play the game in the first place.

I do agree however, that noone holds a gun to your head and forces you to buy into GW products, if you think the product has taken a nose dive, then it's time to find a new hobby home.

It's no secret that GW is a business run by businessmen, and with business targets taking number one slot over customer demand....which is in itself, bad business practice....however, things at GW are what they are.

That Matt Ward seems to be plying his trade with no recourse to "established" 40K history, does indeed say alot about the unity of the GW fluff. The end effect is that, at least in my opinion, theres no reason to take that fluff seriously anymore, what ever is written today may be worthless tomorrow.

In this way, the big issue for me is trusting in the game setting.

For example, I may buy an army like Blood Angels, because I like the whole Vampire hints, etc etc....now, I spend a lot of money on my army, and follow the fluff that is generated for it in the Black Library....up to now all is good then our friend Matt comes along, and suddenly, Blood Angels arn't vampires anymore....they're something completely different, and all the fluff I previously read is invalid?!?! Suddenly all that money I spent feels meaningless and the very reason I started that army has been removed! Imagine Space Wolves no longer have the taint of the lycan, instead they change into fluffy bunnies....the list could go on, unless you play your games in a vacuum, this isn't something you can just ignore....is this fun? is this how the hobby is mean't to be?

I think there should be a commitee actually. The setting no longer belongs to GW alone.....it belongs to every gamer who has, and ever will, invest money into it. I think people sometimes forget, the game is nothing without the gamers....ask companies like MERCS or Infinity, new companies starting up....ask them if they feel the gamer is irrelevant!

Sure, GW owns the rights, and can do what they want....will it win repeat custom? well, the people wanting to petition must make that choice for themselves.

I urge you to spend your money on companies that care about you, the customer.....stop feeding the dark side, cut the cord and show GW that you are important.

We should get a crucify Andy Hoare and Phill Kelly petition too for what they did to my grey knights.

Karon wrote:We should get a crucify Andy Hoare and Phill Kelly petition too for what they did to my grey knights.

Phill Kelly didn't do anything O.o. And Andy Hoare was the editor, like most editors he probably just skimmed it.

Redemption wrote:I have never in my entire life see an internet petition amount to anything. But yes, it's not like Mat is solely responsible for the fluff in his books, I'm sure the codex writers don't work in total isolatement of each other.

Thats odd, I started the deff rolla petition sometime back, and after a few of us on DAKKA spammed GWs emails for a month, they suddenly FAQd the deff rolla rules. Weird................................




OP All I can say is, you have to really push if you honestly want them to even take notice of your intentions. I created accounts on MANY different 40k forums, and every day had to keep people informed and keep the petition up and running. Even after it was done, again a few of us on DAKKA spammed the hell out of their emails for a month. So good luck, Ill sign it just to help you out

JHall wrote:

taylor048 wrote:

We are moaning because it is a good game ruined by people like matt making rediculous armies and destroying 40k fluff because they are incompitent! we still buy from gw because it is a great game and therefore should get an opinion when someone it up.

Really? Really? You are really making a fuss about someone being RIDICULOUS and INCOMPETENT while misspelling these words and not using punctuation? Gamers amaze me...

nice one, I noticed it too...
+1 for you!

Wolfun wrote:Online petitions do eff-all. Best bet? Go to Games Day and tell it to his face.

This

Cue up, meet him, ask him he why he ruined your codex, call him a dick, spit in his face and move on. Get the largest group of people you can to do it one after another then he/they may take notice.

Personal I don't care. The fine details of GW fluff are always changing and probably always will. I assume GK are still super super soldiers with a fetish for daemon ass, the rest I can just make up myself. Who done what, when and to whos mother makes no difference.

Bangbangboom wrote:

Wolfun wrote:Online petitions do eff-all. Best bet? Go to Games Day and tell it to his face.

This

Cue up, meet him, ask him he why he ruined your codex, call him a dick, spit in his face and move on. Get the largest group of people you can to do it one after another then he/they may take notice.

Personal I don't care. The fine details of GW fluff are always changing and probably always will. I assume GK are still super super soldiers with a fetish for daemon ass, the rest I can just make up myself. Who done what, when and to whos mother makes no difference.

Now there's an inspired piece of sage advice

Hey people are crying on the Internet because someone expanded on a piece of constantly evolving fiction in a way they didn't like.

If you want sage advice "get over it". But I 100% guarantee calling someone a dick and spitting in their face makes them question what they done to deserve it.

Bangbangboom wrote:Hey people are crying on the Internet because someone expanded on a piece of constantly evolving fiction in a way they didn't like.

If you want sage advice "get over it". But I 100% guarantee calling someone a dick and spitting in their face makes them question what they done to deserve it.

either that or you get brought up on charges for a hate crime.

Wow it's pretty sad that you would get up in arms about something so simple, Matt ward is a games developer, he is credited and knows what he is doing, no petition or whinging about how you dont like what hes done will change it, what do you expect to happen..

Form GW ' oh were so sorry about this, lets take grey knights off the shelves and not let Mr. Ward write any more books as he is insane'

Not likely, best option= just deal with it, if you hate it that much quit the hobby.

tenclaw wrote:Wow it's pretty sad that you would get up in arms about something so simple, Matt ward is a games developer, he is credited and knows what he is doing, no petition or whinging about how you dont like what hes done will change it, what do you expect to happen..

Form GW ' oh were so sorry about this, lets take grey knights off the shelves and not let Mr. Ward write any more books as he is insane'

Not likely, best option= just deal with it, if you hate it that much quit the hobby.

Hmm, They could, we just send them an email asking them to black out that piece of lore.

Redemption wrote:I have never in my entire life see an internet petition amount to anything. But yes, it's not like Mat is solely responsible for the fluff in his books, I'm sure the codex writers don't work in total isolatement of each other.

Then clearly you haven't seen the movie Serenity Yea I gotta agree I doubt he wrote the entire book. It'd take sooooo much longer to write all those books if he was soloing it. And I hate how everyone says the necrons and BA were "having a tea party" clearly no one who says that has tried to field necrons with any other army in Apocalypse. They say it on the damn apoc datasheets for combining armies that you should come up with a reason why two armies with different morals are fighting alongside each other. same place same time being the one that leaps to my mind...

dbsamurai wrote:

Redemption wrote:I have never in my entire life see an internet petition amount to anything. But yes, it's not like Mat is solely responsible for the fluff in his books, I'm sure the codex writers don't work in total isolatement of each other.

Then clearly you haven't seen the movie Serenity Yea I gotta agree I doubt he wrote the entire book. It'd take sooooo much longer to write all those books if he was soloing it. And I hate how everyone says the necrons and BA were "having a tea party" clearly no one who says that has tried to field necrons with any other army in Apocalypse. They say it on the damn apoc datasheets for combining armies that you should come up with a reason why two armies with different morals are fighting alongside each other. same place same time being the one that leaps to my mind...

He was the project leader so if he lead it, its his fault.

Squig_herder wrote:Has anyone ever considered that changes in fluff indicate a grander shift in game as a whole?

This.

What people seem to struggle with is the idea that a new codex for an existing army is not a sequel to what has come before. It's a revision. So it doesn't have top stick within the previously established boundaries... that would more or less defy the point of making the revision in the first place.

The whole point of revising a codex is to change things up a bit. Rules change to reflect the current state of the game and the current direction the design team want to move it in, and fluff changes along with it.

So in this edition, Grey Knights (along with pretty much everyone else) are a little less perfect that they had previously been made out to be. Next edition, who knows how they'll be portrayed... but however it turns out that portrayal will, by being included in the new, revised codex that details that army, be the 'correct' portrayal for that edition of the army.


It's also worth noting that GW don't consider their fluff to be 'hard' canon. Everything in the 40K universe is uncertain, and fluff is generally written from a certain perspective. There was a fantastic summation of this on the Black Library site a few years ago, in answer to the constant questions about whether or not BL books were considered canon and how that worked when there were so many contradictions or things that didn't fit into already established fluff... The answer essentially being that it's all 'canon'... but all being told from the specific point of view, and so any given piece of fluff might be 'true'... or it might be apocryphal, or biased by that point of view.

So yes... in this edition, a squad of Grey Knights once murdered a bunch of Batle Sisters, smeared their blood on their armour, and went on a rampage. Or did they?

Everything you have been told is a lie.

insaniak wrote:
Everything you have been told is a lie.

I am a lie?
I am a lie NOOOOOOOOO. My chapter is a lie?
My army is a lie? My force is a Lie?
(Joking.)
Yeah I can see that, but its just his writing style bothers many people.

Oh for crying out loud, give it a rest.

[Edit, a few minutes later: http://www.petitionspot.com/petitions/StopWhiningAboutMatt]

Ravendove wrote:Oh for crying out loud, give it a rest.

[Edit, a few minutes later: http://www.petitionspot.com/petitions/StopWhiningAboutMatt]

What me? Nah. I am just complaining about complainers. I'm still going to buy the codex though I am going to black out the lore page talking about the sisters of battle.
I want to start a custodes army so the grey knights fluff ain't got Anything on me. So Muhahahahahaha.

Ravendove wrote:Oh for crying out loud, give it a rest.

[Edit, a few minutes later: http://www.petitionspot.com/petitions/StopWhiningAboutMatt]

that one i'll sign. as insaniak stated, the new codex is a revision of both the previous fluff and rules and frequently change both. units that NEVER existed before *poof* just appear with 5,000 year backstories about how they're integral to the army portrayed in their codex. purely evil forces are given a lighter side and whitewashed good guys get some stains... its just how it works. the big complaints about GKs slaughtering SOB and smearing themselves with their pure blood goes perfectly with the other NON-ward fluff presented in the GK short story in Victories of the Space Marines where an innocent loyal imperial is slaughtered to sanctify EACH grey knight bolter ROUND (not the bolter, but each individual round!). its also not like this one writer disappears for a month and then secretly hands over his text to the printer directly while working for a publicly traded corporation; the work probably passes through multiple creative and corporate layers of approval so, even if you don't like it, it isn't right to demonize one person.

Is this pointed towards me? Because I am not signing any petition.
I dislike a few things about the codex but I will still buy. Hell I will probably only buy it because of my Adeptus Custodes force and to have Storm Raven rules.

Asherian Command wrote:Is this pointed towards me? Because I am not signing any petition.

Is the petition called StopWhiningAsherian? No? Then it's probably safe to say it was directed at the general tone of the thread.

Ravendove wrote:

Asherian Command wrote:Is this pointed towards me? Because I am not signing any petition.

Is the petition called StopWhiningAsherian? No? Then it's probably safe to say it was directed at the general tone of the thread.

Mate. Watch your tone.

Murdock129 wrote:http://www.petitionspot.com/petitions/StopMattWard/

As a result of the recent GK fluff I started this petition, deciding that enough's enough. I've put up with everything up to and including Necrons having a tea party with Blood Angels, but when he screwed over the Grey Knights I'd had enough, see here for further details on that:

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/357650.page

Taking Gorgarak's advise I'm posting it here, we appreciate every signiture and hopefully something will be done about this, this time

I'd recommend that you put down something specific in that petition. ONE OR TWO issues that you'd want changed, not some sort of Pee on your leg shotgun blast like "We don't like you, you stink!"

What specificly, has Ward written that Pee's on your leg? What specificly has been changed that you don't like? I don't agree that a petition won't change things, just not your particular petition. When you are looking to change something this friggin big, you change it from small pushes, not by just a five second write down of oddball stuff about fire that guy because he's a tool, that really doesn't tell me a thing.

THEN you go and ask for the guys job? Why not try a little more suger in it, such as, TELLING THEM, " You guys made this particular model, THAT GUY, an army killer. We played fifty games, and THAT GUY killed everyone he played. We read through the RAW, and it doesn't make sense why THAT GUY can pee on my leg and roll through three armies alone like he did. Little Jimmie played THAT GUY's army and he practicly killed his cat over being beaten that badly. Hopw about you guys go back and relook THAT GUY rules?

At the end of the day,. they look over how many letters, E mails, and response they had to THAT GUY, and then pop out a couple of FAQ's about it. It happens, and then if it doesn't people really just tell them to Feth off, and end up not buying that particular THAT GUY, or his army.

Money talks, BS walks.

Me? I read the GK codex the first time and laughed my ass off when I gave it over to the guy standing next to me and had to ask him if that was serious or not. I stopped laughing when I saw how craptastic the guys looked when compared to regular Space Marines. I'm over GW's stupidity. Now I've got what I got, and it's looking like a pretty good sale pretty soon.

By now though dude, I don't even give them a second thought. I've got enough and then some, pretty much everyone but Eldar, and they sit quietly while I paint them. They are just figures at the end of the day, but In the REAL world? Yeah, we pretty much do what the other guy said, go see the guy in person, and sit down and have a rational conversation about something specific that you'd want to change. I wouldn't suggest punching him in the face. That doesn't work, anymore. You have to tell him what he did that resulted in losing the company over a million in hard earned coin, and what he can do to fix it. Personally? I like thier older games. The skermish games that they don't pay attention to, the ones they don't screw up.

Shotgun blasts about nerdrage don't cut it.

As for these other cats, yeah, you guys can blow the kid off, but in the grand scheme of things, he's P.O.'d about his game. Bottom line.
You looking down your nose at him like you're being oh so superior is the exact thing that crapped on GW's games in the first place. He's raging, you can either ignore it, or tell him something specific to push him in a more constructive direction.

What do YOU think he should do then, if his "Petition won't work"? What is his option, aside from just taking his minis, piling them in a box, slagging the whole thing and throwing it through his local game shops window?

GW is specificly KNOWN for getting newbs into the hobby, then pushing them away. What you fail to realize is that it is a buisness. THEY want to make money. WHAT would you buy, and what puts you off about them that you'd want to change? What about coustomer service? What about the shops themselves? What would you suggest them to do, or would you go to your local shop, and push to through the management?
Yeah, it's plastic crak, but when you outright tell them you'd spend 100,000 annually, and your club would spend 20,000 easily a month, THAT is the thing that people take notice to.

Me? I'd push a price reduction, aside from a realignment of the issue of the models in the box/ unit. I told my LGS's the same thing, and I've got money that I spend on anything other then GW that They see that goes to someone else. The result? We see a collective decrease in sales, we see a glutton of product sitting on the shelf, and we see my LGS putting up the things that I'm buying, the other three or four guys, and thier friends are getting into, and other games getting a boost in shelf space.

That guy that said that GW is making more money? Not here they arn't. They are losing money, and they have to continue to shapeshift to survive. One guy shops, removing products that were either losing sales, or just because they're stupid, or even just because to make new stuff you have to remove old, THAT stuff gets a reduced price to get off the shelf, and then you get the prices reduced. All the while, losing ground and less and less product getting reordered because of it. Want facts and figures? Look at thier quarterly earnings and the shell game that they continue to play with thier "realignments". Any gains are being masked by thier continuous shapeshifting stores, and thier overhead business costs. Personally? they need to just up and get out of the local store business, and leave it at a couple of Major store locations in major metro areas with large scale battle bunkers, where they run an official tourney scene, and push the costs on to the local markets that would easily return the favor in advertising and day to day operations. Trickle down approach, because those bleeding sores of stores are whats driving up the prices of the models in general.

Some say that online petitions don't work? I say they do, if they are specific, and have a point. You are making a petition about a multimillion doller project, you're not going to go far just telling them that it sucks, change it. You make little changes, and push buttons and make constructive point's that push the project in a positive direction.

The F'n genies out of the bottle, it's not going back in when it comes to the GK, or any other FOM newly released army that comes out of the gate.

If, for example, you have an issue that the army is unworkable, or a Powergamers wet dream, then put together a presentation with fact, figures, and a well written disposition and push the angle.
"Hey, our shop stopped playing GW games altogether because of the way in which you have started creeping the point system."" We, collectivly, spend over 100,000 bucks, and have nearly double that in other GW products that we've collectivly owned over the past three years." "I spend 100 bucks a week, and Tom, Dick, and Harry spend roughly 200 to 500 respectivly". Then you have tom put in a letter of his points, and the other guys get a page or two themselves. Together, your team sets up a petition setting the stage, putting together a counter proposal, and then you go gather over 100- 1,000 signatures, and add in how much each player spends, and where they play at.

You set the stage before the nerdrage. THEN you can add in some points of order, such as you posted the matter in Dakka, Your four nearest LGS's, and the local rag.
THAT makes you a player then, that makes you a part of something that might have a chance at some change.
Anything less, and you are just a countless voice, crying out in the night.

Your other option is to go find one of the guys that is one the major investors, and put in a well written word to them to speak on your groups behalf. Add in how much not doing so and so will cost in the long run, and point out that such and such is costing 123 amounts of money, and that XYZ would be a better option and make them 456 amounts.

And finally, you don't fall in love with the plan. Remember you are talking about a bunch of assclowns that day after day hear the same old same old. "Waghh waghh waghh!!!, We want more nubs!" They are pretty much conditioned at this point in time that the masses don't matter, and it's about making money. You want to help them? give them a serious, now s!@# discussion on whats wrong, and what might be a good fix for it.

THAT is how we do it in the real world, because just being a kid will get you kid stuff results.

Normally, I'd ignore this kind of a petiton, but you seem like you don't know any better, and these guys are taking pot shots and being trite.

Just my buck and a quarter.

Ever considered this is what GW wants too see? Maybe they really like his writings? Maybe thats the direction GW wants to go.
ITT: A petition that will amount to absolutely nothing like all thousands before it. Its been clearly proven GW doesn't care what you think. As Einstein defines it, Insanity is doing something over and over again knowing it will have the same result. Why keep making these threads?

Ravendove wrote:Oh for crying out loud, give it a rest.

This. I know gamer-nerds need a scapegoat to consistently and continually bash regardless as to the quality of the product released, but this is just getting ridiculous.

Oh, and online petitions probably won't even get past GW's spam filter, let alone be read by someone able to act upon it.

L. Wrex

- Removed. Play nice -

[sorry - pished]

...which is not an excuse to ignore the forum rules.

The problem is, even if this was to work, Matt Ward would leave with his pockets lined as it would be unfair dismissal, which isn't allowed in the UK.

So it is a lose/lose situation.

Put up with Ward or a massive price hike.

There was a point in time when codex fluff was good?

MikeMcSomething wrote:There was a point in time when codex fluff was good?

Yes it was called 4th ed and 3rd ed.

That's funny I read those books and I remember that they were all equally crappy. Every codex has maybe a gem or two hidden somewhere in the 20 pages of timelines nobody can remember after they put the book down and the phoned-in unit entry pages.

In fact, I'm willing to bet more people would sign a petition allowing them to purchase army books completely without fluff at a discount, than would sign one written about any given fluff topic/author/etc you could come up with.

MikeMcSomething wrote:That's funny I read those books and I remember that they were all equally crappy. Every codex has maybe a gem or two hidden somewhere in the 20 pages of timelines nobody can remember after they put the book down and the phoned-in unit entry pages.

I really liked 4th ed. And 3rd. Of course that was during the big world wide campaign stuff which made 40k alot of fun now its just blah....

alphaomega wrote:The problem is, even if this was to work, Matt Ward would leave with his pockets lined as it would be unfair dismissal, which isn't allowed in the UK.

So it is a lose/lose situation.

Put up with Ward or a massive price hike.

"Your work sucks and you're driving customers away" probably counts as legitimate reason for dismissal.

I like Matt Ward and/or Phil Kelly being the only two writers, its like GW giving us a personal gurentee that your codex is going to get better.

Speaking as a supposed "Fluff Nazi"...

The only things I take issue with from Matt Ward are the Jokaero and Daemonhosts being in the Grey Knights book and the Dreadknight concept.

He does some things over the top, sure. But there's really nothing that has struck me as flatout abusing the fluff.

I read the codex today.

As with the Blood Angels timeline, there is some childish and flimsy seeming fluff.

It reeks of being rushed out with no attention to detail.

I am wondering just how great the 'holy ward' of sisters slaughtered by the grey knights would be..? Coupled with the time travelling moon and the blood angel/necron 'strange bedfellows' thing, it's all just crappy writing.

Those folks looking for a 'move' in the fluff and alluded new directions are, I think, granting gw too much credit, I just think it was exceptionally poor fluff 'filler'.

The more this crud gets written for marines and their variants, the more convinced I become that MEQ is for kids...

MeanGreenStompa wrote:I read the codex today.

As with the Blood Angels timeline, there is some childish and flimsy seeming fluff.

It reeks of being rushed out with no attention to detail.

I am wondering just how great the 'holy ward' of sisters slaughtered by the grey knights would be..? Coupled with the time travelling moon and the blood angel/necron 'strange bedfellows' thing, it's all just crappy writing.

Those folks looking for a 'move' in the fluff and alluded new directions are, I think, granting gw too much credit, I just think it was exceptionally poor fluff 'filler'.

The more this crud gets written for marines and their variants, the more convinced I become that MEQ is for kids...

Should we rewrite it then?

came across this by the way.

http://www.totalwargamer.co.uk/blog/?p=1123

insaniak wrote:

Squig_herder wrote:Has anyone ever considered that changes in fluff indicate a grander shift in game as a whole?

This.

What people seem to struggle with is the idea that a new codex for an existing army is not a sequel to what has come before. It's a revision. So it doesn't have top stick within the previously established boundaries... that would more or less defy the point of making the revision in the first place.

The whole point of revising a codex is to change things up a bit. Rules change to reflect the current state of the game and the current direction the design team want to move it in, and fluff changes along with it.

So in this edition, Grey Knights (along with pretty much everyone else) are a little less perfect that they had previously been made out to be. Next edition, who knows how they'll be portrayed... but however it turns out that portrayal will, by being included in the new, revised codex that details that army, be the 'correct' portrayal for that edition of the army.


It's also worth noting that GW don't consider their fluff to be 'hard' canon. Everything in the 40K universe is uncertain, and fluff is generally written from a certain perspective. There was a fantastic summation of this on the Black Library site a few years ago, in answer to the constant questions about whether or not BL books were considered canon and how that worked when there were so many contradictions or things that didn't fit into already established fluff... The answer essentially being that it's all 'canon'... but all being told from the specific point of view, and so any given piece of fluff might be 'true'... or it might be apocryphal, or biased by that point of view.

So yes... in this edition, a squad of Grey Knights once murdered a bunch of Batle Sisters, smeared their blood on their armour, and went on a rampage. Or did they?

Everything you have been told is a lie.

If the direction they are taking is invalidating the entire background by having characters perform feats of such insane ludicrousy, overshadowing what the Emperor himself could do , then what the hell kind of direction is that to take.
It destroys the consistency amongst the background FOR EVERY SINGLE RACE, by invalidating every action made by other characters and makes them look weak my comparison
Its not even written as propaganda either, its a statement of facts on what they did
How can you even defend that?
Dark Eldar is a change that is excellent
Not only does it keep the acts reasonable( excluding perhaps Vect) but its interesting and does things that creates a new view on the race as a whole
Previously they were essentially S and M Eldar, but look at them now

Compare that to The Emperor that Walks Draigo
Killing daemons in the warp where it should be close to impossible, because they are far satronger than they are in realspace there, even bloody terrifying them
Carving his name into a Primarchs heart, all by his lonesome

What exactly about that is good?
If you take away the background of the game and mutate it into this dreck, what do you have left?
Average to bad rules, expensive minatures that drive people away with the insane costs, are the only things left

Asuron wrote:

insaniak wrote:

Squig_herder wrote:Has anyone ever considered that changes in fluff indicate a grander shift in game as a whole?

This.

What people seem to struggle with is the idea that a new codex for an existing army is not a sequel to what has come before. It's a revision. So it doesn't have top stick within the previously established boundaries... that would more or less defy the point of making the revision in the first place.

The whole point of revising a codex is to change things up a bit. Rules change to reflect the current state of the game and the current direction the design team want to move it in, and fluff changes along with it.

So in this edition, Grey Knights (along with pretty much everyone else) are a little less perfect that they had previously been made out to be. Next edition, who knows how they'll be portrayed... but however it turns out that portrayal will, by being included in the new, revised codex that details that army, be the 'correct' portrayal for that edition of the army.


It's also worth noting that GW don't consider their fluff to be 'hard' canon. Everything in the 40K universe is uncertain, and fluff is generally written from a certain perspective. There was a fantastic summation of this on the Black Library site a few years ago, in answer to the constant questions about whether or not BL books were considered canon and how that worked when there were so many contradictions or things that didn't fit into already established fluff... The answer essentially being that it's all 'canon'... but all being told from the specific point of view, and so any given piece of fluff might be 'true'... or it might be apocryphal, or biased by that point of view.

So yes... in this edition, a squad of Grey Knights once murdered a bunch of Batle Sisters, smeared their blood on their armour, and went on a rampage. Or did they?

Everything you have been told is a lie.

If the direction they are taking is invalidating the entire background by having characters perform feats of such insane ludicrousy, overshadowing what the Emperor himself could do , then what the hell kind of direction is that to take.
It destroys the consistency amongst the background FOR EVERY SINGLE RACE, by invalidating every action made by other characters and makes them look weak my comparison
Its not even written as propaganda either, its a statement of facts on what they did
How can you even defend that?
Dark Eldar is a change that is excellent
Not only does it keep the acts reasonable( excluding perhaps Vect) but its interesting and does things that creates a new view on the race as a whole
Previously they were essentially S and M Eldar, but look at them now

Compare that to The Emperor that Walks Draigo
Killing daemons in the warp where it should be close to impossible, because they are far satronger than they are in realspace there, even bloody terrifying them
Carving his name into a Primarchs heart, all by his lonesome

What exactly about that is good?
If you take away the background of the game and mutate it into this dreck, what do you have left?
Average to bad rules, expensive minatures that drive people away with the insane costs, are the only things left

This is the smartest thing i have ever heard come from Patrick Star. I for one am getting rid of my 40K stuff, save the few models i like the looks of, and using that cash for fantasy and warmachine. I was going to wait until they made a new witchhunters/sisters of battle codex, but the way things are going, the leader of the Soroitas will singlehandedly close the eye of terror, beat Ghazkul in an arm wrestling match, teach the tau that her way is the right way, and turn the Tyranids into cute puppies that follow her around. No thanks.

+4000000
I agree with it. I love the fluff it is what makes me want to continue 40k.

@Asherian Command, well I personally am all for us re-writing the Grey Knights codex and will happily use a fan codex for them as in my eyes they're currently un-supported by Games Workshop, I refuse to accept that piece of trash as a codex. So yeah I'm behind any fan codexes made here. And that review sums it up quite well though he was generous with how many stars he gave it.

Asuron, you really have my respect after that speech. I feel you really summed up my feeling on this subject perfectly, without the fluff all we have is a game with not so great rules and over expensive models, and this Grey Knight fluff is just plain terrible.

Of course, those of us old enough to remember Rogue Trader to 2nd edition, the base storyline was changed dramatically! In RT, the Emperor was simply very old, thus needing the Golden Throne. It wasn't until about halfway through 2nd ed through 3rd ed that the Horus Heresy even entered the canon...
I don't think any of us have a problem with THAT fluff change!

CATACLYSMUS wrote:Of course, those of us old enough to remember Rogue Trader to 2nd edition, the base storyline was changed dramatically! In RT, the Emperor was simply very old, thus needing the Golden Throne. It wasn't until about halfway through 2nd ed through 3rd ed that the Horus Heresy even entered the canon...
I don't think any of us have a problem with THAT fluff change!

Really?
Okay. We need to find someone that can rewrite the gray knight fluff.


The fluff itself is horrible. The Rules I am fine with.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Guys, Can someone make a Grey Knight Rules thread and then make some lore and stuff? And make some proposed rules section.

Asherian Command wrote:

CATACLYSMUS wrote:Of course, those of us old enough to remember Rogue Trader to 2nd edition, the base storyline was changed dramatically! In RT, the Emperor was simply very old, thus needing the Golden Throne. It wasn't until about halfway through 2nd ed through 3rd ed that the Horus Heresy even entered the canon...
I don't think any of us have a problem with THAT fluff change!

Really?
Okay. We need to find someone that can rewrite the gray knight fluff.


The fluff itself is horrible. The Rules I am fine with.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Guys, Can someone make a Grey Knight Rules thread and then make some lore and stuff? And make some proposed rules section.

Hmm....I could try and give it a stab. Note: I deliberately do not read the WH40k novels out there so as to be "untainted" from the works of other writers, trying to find my own style using the barebone facts that wikis and general knowledge gives me.

Sending a PM with my current project for the Great Space Marine Swap.

Signed anyway

This thread makes my soul hurt. In a universe of total grimdark and inconcievable possibilities, you're complaining about stuff being a bit too unfeasible? Yeesh, it's not that bad.

The Grey Knights aren't perfect, they're incredibly pragmatic (just as the old Daemonhunters Codex was too, "blow up the planet of 10,000,000,000 to stop a daemon incursion yada yada). It's truly end justifies the means. Just as the Ultramarines are guilty of being prudes, Dark Angles are moody emos, Space Wolves are druken rouges and Blood Angels are vampiric metrosexuals. EVERY codex has some vice.

It could always be worse. At least you aren't picking bugs off of someone else to eat as your daily nutrition.

Asuron wrote:If the direction they are taking is invalidating the entire background by having characters perform feats of such insane ludicrousy, overshadowing what the Emperor himself could do , then what the hell kind of direction is that to take.

That just comes down to how you choose to look at it.

You can take it as GW being inconsistent, sure. Or you can take it as a hint that the Imperial legends telling everyone of just how mind-numbingly awesome the Emperor was were written by someone a little biased on the subject. Or that Space Marines have simply become better fighters over the intervening 10 milllenia. Or that, as I already mentioned, any given story may or may not be an actual, true and unbiased account of what 'actually' happened.


The background of Warhammer 40K isn't intended to be a factual treatise on the future history of the galaxy. It's a bit of quite seriously over-the-top propaganda to make whichever army is currently being discussed look good.

As 'CATACLYSMUS' pointed out, those of us who have been around long enough have learnt to accept that fluff changes, and is generally not particularly consistent. That's just the nature of the game... and people have been screaming about it ruining the game for as long as GW have been re-writing things.

insaniak wrote:

Asuron wrote:If the direction they are taking is invalidating the entire background by having characters perform feats of such insane ludicrousy, overshadowing what the Emperor himself could do , then what the hell kind of direction is that to take.

That just comes down to how you choose to look at it.

You can take it as GW being inconsistent, sure. Or you can take it as a hint that the Imperial legends telling everyone of just how mind-numbingly awesome the Emperor was were written by someone a little biased on the subject. Or that Space Marines have simply become better fighters over the intervening 10 milllenia. Or that, as I already mentioned, any given story may or may not be an actual, true and unbiased account of what 'actually' happened.


The background of Warhammer 40K isn't intended to be a factual treatise on the future history of the galaxy. It's a bit of quite seriously over-the-top propaganda to make whichever army is currently being discussed look good.

As 'CATACLYSMUS' pointed out, those of us who have been around long enough have learnt to accept that fluff changes, and is generally not particularly consistent. That's just the nature of the game... and people have been screaming about it ruining the game for as long as GW have been re-writing things.

Thats the problem
It's not propaganda
Grey Knights are a secret organisation, who is going to write propaganda for them? Who would read it
Is it for themselves to read? That would make next to no sense.

Even if it was anyway, thats not the way its written
Its written as actual factual statements of what these characters acheived
Looking at it any other way isn't possible, because of the way its written
If I did try to do that, I would just be trying to justify poor writing.

You could certainly make arguments like that for Calgar or any other character hes written in other books
It does not apply to Grey Knights however

If you really wanted to get all pissed off at how your game's story changes with time, just look at MtG and D&D, where essentially the whole concept of the "story" has been shelved for marketing and profit.

Seriously, all they've done for DnD since 4th ed. is rehash some of the old stuff from billions of years ago. The changes they have made are mediocre at best (I do give them props for advancing the Forgotten Realms storyline, but little else has been as good as this world of their own creation).

And MtG has recently been shirking their storylines for the focus on the cards themselves and ignoring the rich history they have to build upon.

The fluff I can try to ignore. If he changes everything about the army considering the rules, then I'll get damn upset.

WarOne wrote:If you really wanted to get all pissed off at how your game's story changes with time, just look at MtG and D&D, where essentially the whole concept of the "story" has been shelved for marketing and profit.

Seriously, all they've done for DnD since 4th ed. is rehash some of the old stuff from billions of years ago. The changes they have made are mediocre at best (I do give them props for advancing the Forgotten Realms storyline, but little else has been as good as this world of their own creation).

And MtG has recently been shirking their storylines for the focus on the cards themselves and ignoring the rich history they have to build upon.

+ over 9000

Awesome comparison, it seems more people are here to play and less are here to read the story. The days of tall tales of the 40k universe arent dead, but I will admit I am playing blood angels AND HAVE NOT READ A SINGLE STORY IN THEIR CODEX YET. There are so many rules competitive players have to memorize, a lot of stories tend to go unread. I'll get around to reading the fluff eventually, as a lot is still fun to read, but Ive got my nose in the BRB and the faqs on GW lot of the time.....

The last fluff type thing Ive gotten into was Rites of War way back in the day before I actually played the game....and the 3rd edition Necron codex. I read it all the way the way through the day I bought it.

Asuron wrote: Who would read it

Most of the people in this thread, for starters.

You get that the 40K setting isn't real, right?

Looking at it any other way isn't possible, because of the way its written

It's a fictional setting for a game of toy soldiers. You can look at it whichever way you please.

Personally, I'm going with the 'It's all just make believe, and not worth getting all hot under the collar over' approach.


Edit: Seriously, I get that some people would prefer a consistent and believable setting. The thing is, you're not going to get that. 40K has never had that, and is unlikely to ever have it in the future.

And yet people think that this cobbled-together, constantly evolving little soap opera science fantasy setting for a game of toy soldier is such serious business that it's worth calling for someone's job because they don't agree with his (presumably completely endorsed by the company that employs him) personal take on it?

Seriously?


If that's really where people are coming from, I would heartily recommend some time away from the keyboard. Go take a walk. Pat some children and play with some puppies, or something to regain a little perspective.

insaniak wrote:Personally, I'm going with the 'It's all just make believe, and not worth getting all hot under the collar over' approach.

Indeed. It's a means to the ends of playing with toy soldiers/man dollies.

Personally, the main gripe I have with the fluff, having been keeping up for 22 years, is that it doesn't seem to move forward. In Wm/H, or WHFB, there is a story line, in which things begin, progress, and end. It has been 999 M41 for about 12 years, now, and they have foreshadowed about everything they can. I can understand that, in an Imperium with 1M+ planets, ALOT of things can happen within 1 year, but I kind of want them to move the story to the next evolution of humanity, or the Awakening/Death of the Emporer, or the Great Necron Arising, or whatever. Just...DO.....SOMETHING!

Oh, and by the way, I'd love to have Matt Ward's job! He is one of the 12 people at GW that make a liveable wage!

insaniak wrote:

Asuron wrote: Who would read it

Most of the people in this thread, for starters.

You get that the 40K setting isn't real, right?

Looking at it any other way isn't possible, because of the way its written

It's a fictional setting for a game of toy soldiers. You can look at it whichever way you please.

Personally, I'm going with the 'It's all just make believe, and not worth getting all hot under the collar over' approach.


Edit: Seriously, I get that some people would prefer a consistent and believable setting. The thing is, you're not going to get that. 40K has never had that, and is unlikely to ever have it in the future.

And yet people think that this cobbled-together, constantly evolving little soap opera science fantasy setting for a game of toy soldier is such serious business that it's worth calling for someone's job because they don't agree with his (presumably completely endorsed by the company that employs him) personal take on it?

Seriously?


If that's really where people are coming from, I would heartily recommend some time away from the keyboard. Go take a walk. Pat some children and play with some puppies, or something to regain a little perspective.

In their universe? Who will read it in their universe? Thats what I meant, thats what propaganda is for
I'll chalk that up to a misunderstanding on your part

His writing can't be looked at in another way, because of standard writing conventions
You can't just ignore them because of what you want to see, thats not dealing with the reality of whats written

I also don't understand why its not worth discussing because its based on toy soldiers?
The background drew us here, made us play the game because we enjoyed it, this guy ruins it
Discussion of it is perfectly fine and for you to somehow think that because its based on toy soldiers, that its somehow not worthy of discussion is strange to say the least

If your not interested in the background though, may I ask why aren't you playing games with a stronger ruleset?
Certainly much better games in that regard wouldnt you say?

Asuron wrote:In their universe? Who will read it in their universe? Thats what I meant, thats what propaganda is for

In this context, the 'propaganda' is simply a way of selling the army. Whether or not anyone in the 40K universe reads it, or is even aware of the existence of the army in question is largely irrelevant.

His writing can't be looked at in another way, because of standard writing conventions

Sure it can. We're not talking about literature here. We're talking about a few paragraphs of fluff text, the sole intention of which is to give a bunch of toy soldiers a bit of a background for those who care about such things.

You can take that however you please. Me, I take it as a starting point. It sets the basic scene... and a part of that basic scene is that nothing is certain... so almost anything goes.

You can certainly try to take it as something that is set in stone, and that should be consistent and comply with your own personal view of what the 40K universe is about. But that way lies madness.

I also don't understand why its not worth discussing because its based on toy soldiers?

I never said it wasn't worth discussing. I said it wasn't worth getting as worked up about it as some people seem to be getting... and that a handful of people on an internet forum disagreeing with his vision of Grey Knights isn't worth his job.

If your not interested in the background though, may I ask why aren't you playing games with a stronger ruleset?

I also never said I wasn't interested in the background. I love the background of 40K. It's one of the reasons I've been playing it for, what? 17 years now.

I just don't expect it to be anything more than what it is... which is a bit of fluff.
I also don't expect it to never change, or to only ever change in ways that I personally like. If it ever gets to a point where the direction that GW are taking the fluff in is a direction that no longer interests me, then I'll just carry on using the fluff I do like.

That's the brilliant thing about this game... We've had a functional game for 20 years now. Keeping up with the changes that GW make to it is a personal choice... not a requirement.

insaniak wrote:

Asuron wrote:In their universe? Who will read it in their universe? Thats what I meant, thats what propaganda is for

In this context, the 'propaganda' is simply a way of selling the army. Whether or not anyone in the 40K universe reads it, or is even aware of the existence of the army in question is largely irrelevant.

His writing can't be looked at in another way, because of standard writing conventions

Sure it can. We're not talking about literature here. We're talking about a few paragraphs of fluff text, the sole intention of which is to give a bunch of toy soldiers a bit of a background for those who care about such things.

You can take that however you please. Me, I take it as a starting point. It sets the basic scene... and a part of that basic scene is that nothing is certain... so almost anything goes.

You can certainly try to take it as something that is set in stone, and that should be consistent and comply with your own personal view of what the 40K universe is about. But that way lies madness.

I also don't understand why its not worth discussing because its based on toy soldiers?

I never said it wasn't worth discussing. I said it wasn't worth getting as worked up about it as some people seem to be getting... and that a handful of people on an internet forum disagreeing with his vision of Grey Knights isn't worth his job.

If your not interested in the background though, may I ask why aren't you playing games with a stronger ruleset?

I also never said I wasn't interested in the background. I love the background of 40K. It's one of the reasons I've been playing it for, what? 17 years now.

I just don't expect it to be anything more than what it is... which is a bit of fluff.
I also don't expect it to never change, or to only ever change in ways that I personally like. If it ever gets to a point where the direction that GW are taking the fluff in is a direction that no longer interests me, then I'll just carry on using the fluff I do like.

That's the brilliant thing about this game... We've had a functional game for 20 years now. Keeping up with the changes that GW make to it is a personal choice... not a requirement.

I think we are going to have to agree to disagee on this

Altough I do contend your point on it not being literature
It is written work, therefore it has follow the basic principles of writing ad all its forms

While I also think if this was a one off thng, based solely on Grey Knights, then you would be right
But its not an isolated case
His writing across the board, has been consistently terrible
I can't comment on rules however, I don't play enough to make those judgement calls
But it seems to me, if you do something terrible cosistently,then thats grounds to get fired and I think we both can agree, he has written really awful codexes

Asuron wrote:...and I think we both can agree, he has written really awful codexes

Yeah... I don't think we can, actually.

But then, it's quite possible I just have lower expectations. I survived the transition from 2nd to 3rd edition. Codexes would have to plummet an awful long way to top that experience.

You do understand Ward does not make the final call on what he writes. He has to submit it, then its checked over by the lawyers, accountants (IE the business guys not the Gamer guys) and who ever else at GW Corprate who want to have a read and mabye imput/notes.
So I dont think GW will fire him for doing the job they gave him and aproved of.
Now if the bean counters see enough of a drop in revenue from something writen by him, they may let him go then. But from what I can tell, it looks like GK's are going to to a BIG seller. So look forward to more works by Matt.

insaniak wrote:

Asuron wrote:...and I think we both can agree, he has written really awful codexes

Yeah... I don't think we can, actually.

But then, it's quite possible I just have lower expectations. I survived the transition from 2nd to 3rd edition. Codexes would have to plummet an awful long way to top that experience.

Wasn't around that era unfortunately lol
What was it like exactly?

I think this whole thing is getting blown way out of proportion. You know what the GW Game lovers of the world will continue to say to GW?

Here's a hint..

Redemption wrote:I have never in my entire life see an internet petition amount to anything.

I have! I once joined the noble and honorable cause to have the banana-filled chocolade confectionary returned to the Twist brand.



And lo and behold, it is now a regular fixture again. Behold the power of the sweeth tooth!

I have to say this is a pretty pathetic thread even for the usual nerdrage standards

Asuron wrote:While I also think if this was a one off thng, based solely on Grey Knights, then you would be right
But its not an isolated case
His writing across the board, has been consistently terrible

to be fair, he did a decent job in C:SM.
IMHO, the only bad codexes he wrote were C:BA and a few bits in C:GK.
The rules were balanced, and the stupid things he's done, IMO, consist of:
-DS-ing land raiders. I don't care if you have more than anyone else, you don't just chuck land raiders around!
-mephiston. 'Nuff said.
-"ghost knights". LOTD in GK form.
-castellan crowe. If there's one thing I've learnt about heretics and daemons, it's that they corrupt ALL who they touch.
-Jokaero. What's gonna happen to all the fluff about them being extinct? If you're gonna wipe out a species, stick with it.
Not that many bad units, a lot of his hate comes from other people- he isn't the only one writing the fluff and designing the models.
This petition will never go anwhere, they never do, and this is just a big rant IMO.

well i to be honest its just the fluff in all fairness its not going to wreck how the game is played if you dont like the fluff dont read it

shrike wrote:
to be fair, he did a decent job in C:SM.
IMHO, the only bad codexes he wrote were C:BA and a few bits in C:GK.
The rules were balanced, and the stupid things he's done, IMO, consist of:
-DS-ing land raiders. I don't care if you have more than anyone else, you don't just chuck land raiders around!
-mephiston. 'Nuff said.
-"ghost knights". LOTD in GK form.
-castellan crowe. If there's one thing I've learnt about heretics and daemons, it's that they corrupt ALL who they touch.
-Jokaero. What's gonna happen to all the fluff about them being extinct? If you're gonna wipe out a species, stick with it.
Not that many bad units, a lot of his hate comes from other people- he isn't the only one writing the fluff and designing the models.
This petition will never go anwhere, they never do, and this is just a big rant IMO.

Allowing BA to deep strike Land Raiders in the Codex was, admittedly, going too far. But Thunderhawk Transporters have been present in the game for quite some time and are perfectly able to carry Land Raiders. Sloppy rules writing though, yes. Mephiston makes sense however, as he's meant to be an utter badass. Also, as far as I know, Jokaero have never been extinct.

Edit: As a side note, no BA player in any game I've played so far has dared deep strike his Land Raiders. The risk is just too great.

So Matt Ward is the new Jervis Johnson?

shrike wrote:

Asuron wrote:While I also think if this was a one off thng, based solely on Grey Knights, then you would be right
But its not an isolated case
His writing across the board, has been consistently terrible

to be fair, he did a decent job in C:SM.
IMHO, the only bad codexes he wrote were C:BA and a few bits in C:GK.
The rules were balanced, and the stupid things he's done, IMO, consist of:
-DS-ing land raiders. I don't care if you have more than anyone else, you don't just chuck land raiders around!
-mephiston. 'Nuff said.
-"ghost knights". LOTD in GK form.
-castellan crowe. If there's one thing I've learnt about heretics and daemons, it's that they corrupt ALL who they touch.
-Jokaero. What's gonna happen to all the fluff about them being extinct? If you're gonna wipe out a species, stick with it.
Not that many bad units, a lot of his hate comes from other people- he isn't the only one writing the fluff and designing the models.
This petition will never go anwhere, they never do, and this is just a big rant IMO.

We can also add Daemons and Orcs to the list
As I understand it Orcs and Goblins were severely nerfed or something to that effect and Daemons broke the entire edition of 7th, requiring a new edition entirely to bring them back in line somewhat

Asuron wrote:We can also add Daemons and Orcs to the list
As I understand it Orcs and Goblins were severely nerfed or something to that effect and Daemons broke the entire edition of 7th, requiring a new edition entirely to bring them back in line somewhat

I don't play regular warhammer so I wouldn't know.

Regardless of it being badly written (and all fluff is of variable quality because a lot of is written by people who are wargamers first, and professional writers..er..never.) or even cheapening the previous material (which the constant creation of uber-demi-God-Heroes is bound to do) there is another perspective to thinking this fluff is bad.

Its not exactly child-friendly, is it? And for a company with a target market that are only just out of Gormiti/Bakugan/Pokemon its a little bit hard-core to say the least.

I started on GW when I was 8/9, back when the target market was somewhat older, and they still used to play Cannibal Corpse in the shops, and I only got away with it because my parents never read Real Of Chaos: Slaves To Darkness, or Inquisitor. (which was written by a proper novelist.) Now I'm a parent, and whilst I'm not sqeamish (obviously) and I'm certainly not a card-carrying member of "Fathers Against Swearing" or whatever, and I do have an extensive old-school Slaaneshi army, I also have a good enough grasp of child psychology to know that the moral ambiguity and adult content of a lot of GW product is a) exactly the kind of thing that gets "Upstanding of Cromley in a tizzy on the letters page of the Telegraph and b) not a good move if they want to promote themselves as family-friendly hobby-land.

ArbeitsSchu wrote:I started on GW when I was 8/9

damn, I wish I could of started that early...I went into GW a few days shy of my 9th year on this planet, and they said it's for 12 years and over.
I started playing once the tight-up guy left and the other staff let me play when I was 11.

shrike wrote:

ArbeitsSchu wrote:I started on GW when I was 8/9

damn, I wish I could of started that early...I went into GW a few days shy of my 9th year on this planet, and they said it's for 12 years and over.
I started playing once the tight-up guy left and the other staff let me play when I was 11.

Yeah, I think I just avoided there being an official "rule". I did however get some ridiculous questions like "What are you going to use the superglue for" whilst buying fifteen blisters of multi-part metal models. Even 9 year olds can do a pretty good dead-pan stare. In fairness, they may not have realised how young I was though.

Ravendove wrote:

shrike wrote:
to be fair, he did a decent job in C:SM.
IMHO, the only bad codexes he wrote were C:BA and a few bits in C:GK.
The rules were balanced, and the stupid things he's done, IMO, consist of:
-DS-ing land raiders. I don't care if you have more than anyone else, you don't just chuck land raiders around!
-mephiston. 'Nuff said.
-"ghost knights". LOTD in GK form.
-castellan crowe. If there's one thing I've learnt about heretics and daemons, it's that they corrupt ALL who they touch.
-Jokaero. What's gonna happen to all the fluff about them being extinct? If you're gonna wipe out a species, stick with it.
Not that many bad units, a lot of his hate comes from other people- he isn't the only one writing the fluff and designing the models.
This petition will never go anwhere, they never do, and this is just a big rant IMO.

Allowing BA to deep strike Land Raiders in the Codex was, admittedly, going too far. But Thunderhawk Transporters have been present in the game for quite some time and are perfectly able to carry Land Raiders. Sloppy rules writing though, yes. Mephiston makes sense however, as he's meant to be an utter badass. Also, as far as I know, Jokaero have never been extinct.

Edit: As a side note, no BA player in any game I've played so far has dared deep strike his Land Raiders. The risk is just too great.

Wait a second, your actually defending the stats/rules for Mephiston? Really? Hes a chapter master, THATS IT. Yet his rules look something like a fething Primarch. Thats going way over board if you ask me. Bad ass sure, a tuned up chapter master is fine. A Primarch in the making, no frigging way

KingCracker wrote:Wait a second, your actually defending the stats/rules for Mephiston? Really? Hes a chapter master, THATS IT.

Er... No he's not...

Yet his rules look something like a fething Primarch.

To which Primarch rules are you comparing him?

Wargames should never be aimed at children full stop. A human needs a reasonable grasp on whats real and whats not before embarking on something like this. I'm not a parent yet, but we're expecting our first in a few months and I'll not be introducing my child to wargaming for a long time......

Back on point, I was just re-reading the Dune saga, great books (not sure why it isn't a wargame to be honest!)...now, obviously Frank Herbert is unfortunately dead, and his son and another guy have taken over. While some people complain about what they have "done" to the story line, it's clear, they have gone to great pains to keep up the tradition Frank Herbert started, and without becoming mired in "history", in some way put their own stamp on the Dune universe.....

My point is, there is obviosuly ways in which you can move a story line on without trashing what has gone before, we see it in Dune and we see it in Star Wars. Imagine the Expanded Universe suddently re-writing the past so that Luke, Han Solo etc never existed? Would that be acceptible? if not, then why is it acceptible for WH40K.....call it nerd rage if you want, but to me, if you're going to sell a compelling story, you have to stick with the age old formula, beginning, middle and end....if the middle is always rewriting the beginning then god knows what to expect of the ending....something bad I bet.

KingCracker wrote:Mephiston makes sense however, as he's meant to be an utter badass.

Lysander is an utter badass.
Yarrick is an utter badass.
Ghazghkull is an utter badass.
It doesn't justify that he has stats of an MC. Here's his life story:
-chief libby of the BA.
-Succumbed to the black rage.
-Got trapped under a collapsed building.
-Popped out, with his newfound ability to kill carnifexes and greater daemons with his bare hands.

KingCracker wrote:Also, as far as I know, Jokaero have never been extinct.

They have.
http://members.fortunecity.com/pangolinsaloon/fl/deadraces.html

KingCracker wrote:Wait a second, your actually defending the stats/rules for Mephiston? Really? Hes a chapter master, THATS IT. Yet his rules look something like a fething Primarch. Thats going way over board if you ask me. Bad ass sure, a tuned up chapter master is fine. A Primarch in the making, no frigging way

If you're going to criticize rules/fluff, it might help to read into them a little more to gain some understanding before trying to make your point. He's not a "Chapter Master" and that's "NOT IT".

Mephistons statistics pretty much accurately represent what he is. Firstly, he's the Chief Librarian of the Blood Angels. Secondly, he's the only Blood Angel to have overcome the Red Thirst, doing so by mental fortitude alone while trapped underneath a ruin. This process awakened his dormant gene-seed, granting him exceptional strength and vigor. Thus, it is implied that by mastering the Red Thirst, along with his psychic potential, he inherited a portion of his Primarch's power and basically is his Primarch in the making. This has been his fluff since the character was introduced into the game.

insaniak wrote:To which Primarch rules are you comparing him?

Also this.

It should also be mentioned that M'Karr (the Daemon) has claimed that "Mephiston is already firmly on the path to Daemonhood", so interpret that as you will, as his statistics pretty much match a powerful Daemon Prince.

Ravendove wrote:

KingCracker wrote:Wait a second, your actually defending the stats/rules for Mephiston? Really? Hes a chapter master, THATS IT. Yet his rules look something like a fething Primarch. Thats going way over board if you ask me. Bad ass sure, a tuned up chapter master is fine. A Primarch in the making, no frigging way

If you're going to criticize rules/fluff, it might help to read into them a little more to gain some understanding before trying to make your point. He's not a "Chapter Master" and that's "NOT IT".

Mephistons statistics pretty much accurately represent what he is. Firstly, he's the Chief Librarian of the Blood Angels. Secondly, he's the only Blood Angel to have overcome the Red Thirst, doing so by mental fortitude alone while trapped underneath a ruin. This process awakened his dormant gene-seed, granting him exceptional strength and vigor. Thus, it is implied that by mastering the Red Thirst, along with his psychic potential, he inherited a portion of his Primarch's power and basically is his Primarch in the making. This has been his fluff since the character was introduced into the game.

insaniak wrote:To which Primarch rules are you comparing him?

Also this.

It should also be mentioned that M'Karr (the Daemon) has claimed that "Mephiston is already firmly on the path to Daemonhood", so interpret that as you will, as his statistics pretty much match a powerful Daemon Prince.

You've just explained it better than ward has.
I agree with all your points, just that why would he be T7, S7, ect?
From looking at the different primarch's rules, he is basically a primarch. He should be better than normal, just not THAT good.

Asuron wrote:

insaniak wrote:

Asuron wrote:...and I think we both can agree, he has written really awful codexes

Yeah... I don't think we can, actually.

But then, it's quite possible I just have lower expectations. I survived the transition from 2nd to 3rd edition. Codexes would have to plummet an awful long way to top that experience.

Wasn't around that era unfortunately lol
What was it like exactly?

To pick up on this little sub-thread, the shift between 2nd and 3rd ed. was the biggest this game has ever seen. It was the major paradigm-shift from a basically uncomfortably large Skirmish/pseudo-RPG game, to a more streamlined Small Unit Tactics game. From RT all the way through 2nd ed., the focus was on building small forces out of individually customizable models. The concept was sound, but they marketed it as a war game, and above about 1000 points, it became REALLY bogged down with all of the Multi-saving throws, and the weapon modifiers for saves, and the Psychic phase, etc.
Starting with 3rd. ed., the rules pretty much got gutted. The trend started to be more towards squad and unit strengths, as opposed to ultra-powerful characters. For example, in 2nd ed. the Avatar of Khaine could pretty easily kill all four Greater Daemons at once! In 3rd ed, he got completely castrated, and has only now begun to make a small comeback.
To answer your question more directly, with a new ruleset, came a new streamlined ethos for 'Fluff-building" This was around the time of the push to really expand the Black Library, so the bulk of the fluff shifted from the Codices to the Novels. A 2nd ed. codex was around the size of the current 5th ed, or perhaps a bit longer:100-200 pages. The 3rd ed. came out with roughly 35-40 page codices. Not really enough space was alloted for good, clean fluffyness.

Actually, to be honest, 2nd ed. was more like WHFB in it's play style than the current 40k rules. But, what works for monolithic blocks of core units does not work for the more free-flowing nature of 40k tactics.

I hope that sheds some light on things as they were in the good ol' days.

CATACLYSMUS wrote:Of course, those of us old enough to remember Rogue Trader to 2nd edition, the base storyline was changed dramatically! In RT, the Emperor was simply very old, thus needing the Golden Throne. It wasn't until about halfway through 2nd ed through 3rd ed that the Horus Heresy even entered the canon...
I don't think any of us have a problem with THAT fluff change!

I am that old.

The Horus Heresy was explored in detail in the Realm of Chaos books, back in the Rogue Trader times, 88 for Slaves and 90 for L&D, 2nd ed didn't come out until 93.

Asuron wrote:

insaniak wrote:

Asuron wrote:...and I think we both can agree, he has written really awful codexes

Yeah... I don't think we can, actually.

But then, it's quite possible I just have lower expectations. I survived the transition from 2nd to 3rd edition. Codexes would have to plummet an awful long way to top that experience.

Wasn't around that era unfortunately lol
What was it like exactly?

Imagine 6th ed came out next month. This new edition will change the way the game is played entirely. So much so that every single codex written up to this point is now invalid, even if it had just been released a month or 2 ago. And to top it off, the new Codex for each army will have 4-6 pages of fluff TOPS, no variations on how the list can be built(by SC alteration or what not), and every character lost a ton of options. In addition, what little humor there is left in the game and story was taken away altogether.

How would you feel?

That's about what happened in the shift. It's like the change from the 3.5 Chaos Codex to the current book, but on a scale of the entire game.

I feel bored to death with GW fluff period... I liked the genestealers generations thingy and xenology but the rest... argh cant assimilate that... so I take what I like and develop the universe and fluff I see fit for my race or armie... GW not specially competent at that and those who espect to much from GW should take a step back and try to search a diferent prespective.

NAVARRO wrote:I feel bored to death with GW fluff period... I liked the genestealers generations thingy and xenology but the rest... argh cant assimilate that... so I take what I like and develop the universe and fluff I see fit for my race or armie... GW not specially competent at that and those who espect to much from GW should take a step back and try to search a diferent prespective.

One of the best little bits of fluff that ever showed up in WD turned out to be ripped off from Terry Brooks...though I still think THE best fluff ever was the original Attack On Terra stuff.

Stormrider wrote:This thread makes my soul hurt. In a universe of total grimdark and inconcievable possibilities, you're complaining about stuff being a bit too unfeasible? Yeesh, it's not that bad.

Come talk to me when the strongest thing in your army just got turned into a little "kitty" because someone just carved his name into his chest.

I can see a Grey Knight driving off a Daemon Prince. I can see a Grey Knight bothering a Greater Daemon. I can even see a Grey Knight Hero standing up to, and foiling the plans of, a Daemon Primarch. CARVING HIS FETHING NAME INTO THE BIGGEST BADDEST THING IN THE GALAXY?! Not a chance.

GW board meeting:

Some Guy:"So, lets see the numbers on the current sales of the new 'Grey Knight' line. Hmmm, very impressive. It seems that the new box sets, especially the dreadknight are selling very well. It seems that certain Imperial Guard units are selling also, most specifically the Chimera and certain squads."

Some other guy:"Yes, it seems that players have been using imperial guard squads to convert 'Henchmen' from the GK codex."

Some OTHER other guy:"...but sir..."

Some Guy:"interesting. Make a note, begin steps for a 'Henchman' sprue so that gamers may convert IG squads easier....a single sprue....we'll say $36.00."

Some OTHER other guy:"...BUT SIR..."

Some other guy:"There has also been a slight upturn in the Aegis defence system box. This seems to be somewhat comparable to the upturn in Dreadnought sales. Possibly due to the lack of Autocannon models in the Dreadnought box sets...shall we perhaps add a dreadnought upgrade kit to the mix?"

Some OTHER other guy: "Sirs...PLEASE..."

Some guy: "No need, terrain box sets are selling poorly anyway. Increase sale price of Aegis defense system by 20% on next price increase. All future terrain sets to include possible vehicular upgrades and increase base price template by 30%."

Some OTHER other guy: "SIRS, I MUST INSIST YOU LOOK AT THIS REPORT!!"

Some guy:*yawning* "Yes yes, what data have you accumulated?"

Some OTHER other guy:"It seems that a certain group of gamers have started up a petition. It contains a significant amount of signatures and in my opinion may represent a sizeable amount of gamers that are threatening to quit the hobby if Matt Ward is not removed from the Codex Writing Staff."

*hushed boardroom laughter*

Some Guy: "Who is Matt Ward?"

Some Other Guy: "Sir, he is the author of the Grey Knight codex just released."

Some Guy: "I see. So, sales are up, but a group of gamers has a complaint about the writer responsible for a ruleset and fluff."

Some OTHER other guy:"Yes sir, that is correct. I think it may be wise to..."

Some Guy: "Place this Matt Ward on development of upcoming next marine codex "Blood Ravens", and slate him for "Tau" reboot."

Some OTHER other guy: "But sir, the gamers..."

Some Guy: "Yes yes, I was getting to them. Implement a range wide price increase. Have Jervis write some article in white dwarf under his forum addressing these issues."

Some other guy:"Very good sir." *smiling*

Some OTHER other guy thinking to himself: WTF

Deadshane1 wrote:Stuff and things

You're assuming that ANYONE on the board cares what we think.

Also, I doubt the board would pay attention to a online campaign and its "signatures". I don't even think they'd care about an actual write in campaign or written petition.

Y'know, the ones people tend to actually pay attention to when done.

Asherian Command wrote:

Karon wrote:We should get a crucify Andy Hoare and Phill Kelly petition too for what they did to my grey knights.

Phill Kelly didn't do anything O.o. And Andy Hoare was the editor, like most editors he probably just skimmed it.

My half-assed, overcosted Beastmen Armybook says "by Andy Hoare and Phil Kelly"

I don't give a feth if Andy Hoare was the editor. He should have told Phil Kelly, who I assume wrote it, that he was an asshat and to redo the points cost on the book. You're saying its okay for them to half-ass their job and not improve my position at all in being competitive for another 4 years?

Matt Ward did accomplish alot its just alot of gamers did not like what he did.
Anyway the Gray Knights codex all you have to do is not buy it. Its really that simple.

Slarg232 wrote:

Stormrider wrote:This thread makes my soul hurt. In a universe of total grimdark and inconcievable possibilities, you're complaining about stuff being a bit too unfeasible? Yeesh, it's not that bad.

Come talk to me when the strongest thing in your army just got turned into a little "kitty" because someone just carved his name into his chest.

I can see a Grey Knight driving off a Daemon Prince. I can see a Grey Knight bothering a Greater Daemon. I can even see a Grey Knight Hero standing up to, and foiling the plans of, a Daemon Primarch. CARVING HIS FETHING NAME INTO THE BIGGEST BADDEST THING IN THE GALAXY?! Not a chance.

thats the thing though isn't it.if you are making characters do things that are way overpowered compared to what even the most powerful have been able to do before then it kind of ruins the background.im pretty sure jes and the rest of the gw crew got a look at the grey knight codex before publication and should have sorted out the most glaringly obvious fubars.
thank you.

Slarg232 wrote:

Stormrider wrote:This thread makes my soul hurt. In a universe of total grimdark and inconcievable possibilities, you're complaining about stuff being a bit too unfeasible? Yeesh, it's not that bad.

Come talk to me when the strongest thing in your army just got turned into a little "kitty" because someone just carved his name into his chest.

I can see a Grey Knight driving off a Daemon Prince. I can see a Grey Knight bothering a Greater Daemon. I can even see a Grey Knight Hero standing up to, and foiling the plans of, a Daemon Primarch. CARVING HIS FETHING NAME INTO THE BIGGEST BADDEST THING IN THE GALAXY?! Not a chance.

Mortarian isn't a playable model, what are you going on about? Maybe Matt Ward can write the next Chaos codex so it will all be insane and OP.

The gesture of that action was one of insult, Draigo gave him a giant middle finger. He didn't kill him or even neuter him.

MeanGreenStompa wrote:

CATACLYSMUS wrote:Of course, those of us old enough to remember Rogue Trader to 2nd edition, the base storyline was changed dramatically! In RT, the Emperor was simply very old, thus needing the Golden Throne. It wasn't until about halfway through 2nd ed through 3rd ed that the Horus Heresy even entered the canon...
I don't think any of us have a problem with THAT fluff change!

I am that old.

The Horus Heresy was explored in detail in the Realm of Chaos books, back in the Rogue Trader times, 88 for Slaves and 90 for L&D, 2nd ed didn't come out until 93.

I remember the Horus Heresy being introduced in Adeptus Titanicus in 1988.

40K first edition came out in 1987.

Kilkrazy wrote:

MeanGreenStompa wrote:

CATACLYSMUS wrote:Of course, those of us old enough to remember Rogue Trader to 2nd edition, the base storyline was changed dramatically! In RT, the Emperor was simply very old, thus needing the Golden Throne. It wasn't until about halfway through 2nd ed through 3rd ed that the Horus Heresy even entered the canon...
I don't think any of us have a problem with THAT fluff change!

I am that old.

The Horus Heresy was explored in detail in the Realm of Chaos books, back in the Rogue Trader times, 88 for Slaves and 90 for L&D, 2nd ed didn't come out until 93.

I remember the Horus Heresy being introduced in Adeptus Titanicus in 1988.

40K first edition came out in 1987.

Damn you guys are old (no offense). But I only by luck have that white dwarf which details all the horus hersey. And the original best lore GW has ever made. Like the First War of Armaggeddon and the Battle of Macragge the originals. I have it in my library. Damn I collect too much.

Yeah Epic had it from the get go, Space Marine had pics of six Taitor legions on one side of the box, and six loyalist on the other.

It's why I chuckle at the Legion of One Thousand on the Marine poster, because that was the Thousand Sons original colour scheme. Red with a black M on the pad.

Why would GW care about a few whiners doing a bit of talk which they can't back up ? Every whining forum is to do with battles and fights which are non-background related. EVERY battle me and my friends do has a background story. A good one too .

Luna Dragon wrote: Why would GW care about a few whiners doing a bit of talk which they can't back up ? Every whining forum is to do with battles and fights which are non-background related. EVERY battle me and my friends do has a background story. A good one too .

Probably because there was 150 Gamers. All Veterans. Yeah. I think that would send them a message.

Asherian Command wrote:

Kilkrazy wrote:

MeanGreenStompa wrote:

CATACLYSMUS wrote:Of course, those of us old enough to remember Rogue Trader to 2nd edition, the base storyline was changed dramatically! In RT, the Emperor was simply very old, thus needing the Golden Throne. It wasn't until about halfway through 2nd ed through 3rd ed that the Horus Heresy even entered the canon...
I don't think any of us have a problem with THAT fluff change!

I am that old.

The Horus Heresy was explored in detail in the Realm of Chaos books, back in the Rogue Trader times, 88 for Slaves and 90 for L&D, 2nd ed didn't come out until 93.

I remember the Horus Heresy being introduced in Adeptus Titanicus in 1988.

40K first edition came out in 1987.

Damn you guys are old (no offense). But I only by luck have that white dwarf which details all the horus hersey. And the original best lore GW has ever made. Like the First War of Armaggeddon and the Battle of Macragge the originals. I have it in my library. Damn I collect too much.

I have been looking around, and both of you are correct. I was a bit young then, so I didn't have access to the expansion books at the time. The first time I came across the HH was in 2nd ed. I stand recorrectimified.
But my basic Fluff-changing premise stands, dates notwithstanding.

Slarg232 wrote:

Stormrider wrote:This thread makes my soul hurt. In a universe of total grimdark and inconcievable possibilities, you're complaining about stuff being a bit too unfeasible? Yeesh, it's not that bad.

Come talk to me when the strongest thing in your army just got turned into a little "kitty" because someone just carved his name into his chest.

I can see a Grey Knight driving off a Daemon Prince. I can see a Grey Knight bothering a Greater Daemon. I can even see a Grey Knight Hero standing up to, and foiling the plans of, a Daemon Primarch. CARVING HIS FETHING NAME INTO THE BIGGEST BADDEST THING IN THE GALAXY?! Not a chance.

Didn't a Grey Knight captain banish Angron in the first Armageddon war, while his squad of terminators took on like half dozen Bloodthirsters? Although the dude(can't remember his name) died in the process, the precedent of a grey knight hero getting the best of a Daemon Primarch(in combat.. against the World Eaters daemon primarch) was set long ago*. I don't see whats so far fetched or lore breakingly egregious about a Grey Knight grand master personally banishing and then insulting a daemon primarch.


* I may be missing some details in that story, it was from White Dwarf from back when it didn't suck. If any details were omitted, please feel free to add to it!

OMG people have opinions, that differ to mine!

Seeing a lot of those put down, not adding anything to the discussion type responses here atm.

Myself, I don't have any massive issues with Ward, raised an eyebrow when I read in White Dwarf that he has worded it that Grey Knights use Sorcery and magic.

Just because it steps on stuff thats gone before, and the whole Thousand Sons getting a pretty severe slap on the wrist for doing so.
However its certainly not to the venom I've seen some folks have toward him.

I'd say from what he's done so far, he may have a slightly different view of the 40K universe than what I percieved in places. However so much has changed in the last twenty odd years, it mostly doesn't cause me to even bat an eyelid anymore.

Stormrider wrote:

Slarg232 wrote:

Stormrider wrote:This thread makes my soul hurt. In a universe of total grimdark and inconcievable possibilities, you're complaining about stuff being a bit too unfeasible? Yeesh, it's not that bad.

Come talk to me when the strongest thing in your army just got turned into a little "kitty" because someone just carved his name into his chest.

I can see a Grey Knight driving off a Daemon Prince. I can see a Grey Knight bothering a Greater Daemon. I can even see a Grey Knight Hero standing up to, and foiling the plans of, a Daemon Primarch. CARVING HIS FETHING NAME INTO THE BIGGEST BADDEST THING IN THE GALAXY?! Not a chance.

Mortarian isn't a playable model, what are you going on about? Maybe Matt Ward can write the next Chaos codex so it will all be insane and OP.

The gesture of that action was one of insult, Draigo gave him a giant middle finger. He didn't kill him or even neuter him.

And no marine should be able to insult a fething Daemon Primarch and live. That's crossing the line with the whole idea that the Primarchs are gods among gods, and not to be messed with.

- I have just removed a whole bunch of off-topic nonsense from this thread. Any further posts insulting posters for having the temerity to discuss something that you're not personally interested in discussing will likewise be removed and the poster dealt with accordingly. If you have nothing to contribute to the discussion, just move on. -


Automatically Appended Next Post:

shrike wrote:From looking at the different primarch's rules, he is basically a primarch.

So, again... based on which Primarch rules?

There aren't any such rules for 40K that I'm aware of.

Not gods, but definitely int he arch-devil/archangel range

Carving a name into something's chest belongs in anime, unless the guy is prone and dead. It's hard to do cursive copperplate when they insist on twitching...

I've decided to take all marine fluff (i like most of the IG stuff) as being a tall stories contest arranged on fenris, with everyone blitzed on mead. The reality (pre mead) of any event is far less OTT..

Mead as a story-amplifier is an established scientific fact.

The Power Cosmic wrote:

And the best way is to vote with your dollar. Don't buy the books or models.

...Hehe...I'm a GW hater....Mostly their paints and supplies. I NEVER buy from GW direct, there never getting my money, I swear on that!

...But yeah..on topic, I can be a little fair, the whole team lets him do it...so...yep.

insaniak wrote:- I have just removed a whole bunch of off-topic nonsense from this thread. Any further posts insulting posters for having the temerity to discuss something that you're not personally interested in discussing will likewise be removed and the poster dealt with accordingly. If you have nothing to contribute to the discussion, just move on. -


Automatically Appended Next Post:

shrike wrote:From looking at the different primarch's rules, he is basically a primarch.

So, again... based on which Primarch rules?

There aren't any such rules for 40K that I'm aware of.

Angron? Remember white dwarf?

Asherian Command wrote:Angron? Remember white dwarf?

Sure, I remember White Dwarf... That's the magazine that GW put out every month, that I stopped buying years ago due to the internet being a cheaper and much more exhaustive source of hobby inspiration

So, ok, that's one. Although after a quick hunt around (turns out the rules for Angron are up on the GW site now as well) it would appear that the problem here isn't going to be with any particular character being as powerful as Angron as with whoever wrote those rules for White Dward not really trying too hard to make him interesting.

Wasnt Angron not just another Bloodthirster in an Apocalypse formation?
I only remember vaguely that i thought about never ever using him .

Stormrider wrote:He didn't kill him or even neuter him.

He carved it INTO THE THING'S HEART. I think he killed it...

shrike wrote:

Stormrider wrote:He didn't kill him or even neuter him.

He carved it INTO THE THING'S HEART. I think he killed it...

Besides that you cant kill a deamon.. he showed him for sure ^^.

I am dealing with matt's horrific fluff with the only tool I have. I am redacting it with a marker. The nonsense on page 15? REDACTED!

That story ends with the sisters winning the battle and the blood tide abating when the grey knights land.

EASY.

You can do this people...grab your markers and start crossing out crap you don't like. This is GW, remember! They change canon like it was a pair of old gym socks. (remember before orks were fungus, genestealers weren't nids, and space dwarves existed?)

- Off-topic post removed -

I just noticed another one...
"the planet birmingham"
WTF? Couldn't they come up with anything else?

shrike wrote:I just noticed another one...
"the planet birmingham"
WTF? Couldn't they come up with anything else?

This was also in the IG codex as well, but I agree, it is a bit...dull, shall we say?

Read the story about a GK GM fighting Arhiman and a Dredknight taking down fateweaver.


Read it aloud now. It sounds as if it's written by a 7 year old who is exited about telling a story.

"He did this... and then he did that, oh and that! and that! and then when they did this! he did THAT because he's the best and knows everything".

That's been my point since Draigo's fluff first came to light - everything about this fluff is a "And then... and then... and then..." style story. And as I said in the original threads, I remember writing stories like that.

When I was 6.

IronfrontAlex wrote:Read the story about a GK GM fighting Arhiman and a Dredknight taking down fateweaver.

Page?

shrike wrote:I just noticed another one...
"the planet birmingham"
WTF? Couldn't they come up with anything else?

Actually Birmingham : aka the Black Planet has been in the 40k setting since RT times.

This idea people have, where the guy who's name is on the cover of the new codex was just told to go write a new codex for an army, who then disappears into his office and emerges a month later to tell everyone what he's written, as if no-one in management would be giving any direction at all... this idea is ridiculous.

Seriously, a codex is a collection of rules written as part of a greater ruleset. They don't just hand it over to one guy and say 'surprise us!'

What you're actually complaining about is a change in the overall direction of GW, towards more even more spectacular events in the fluff, and even more epic new units in each army. I don't like the change either, but it's lazy and stupid to just dump it all on one guy as if he's responsible for the entirety of the direction of a new game line in a hundred million pound company.

sebster wrote:This idea people have, where the guy who's name is on the cover of the new codex was just told to go write a new codex for an army, who then disappears into his office and emerges a month later to tell everyone what he's written, as if no-one in management would be giving any direction at all... this idea is ridiculous.

Seriously, a codex is a collection of rules written as part of a greater ruleset. They don't just hand it over to one guy and say 'surprise us!'

What you're actually complaining about is a change in the overall direction of GW, towards more even more spectacular events in the fluff, and even more epic new units in each army. I don't like the change either, but it's lazy and stupid to just dump it all on one guy as if he's responsible for the entirety of the direction of a new game line in a hundred million pound company.

This is the argument I always hear
But theres one damning piece of evidence to counteract it
Dark Eldar( excluding perhaps Vect and even then hes not that bad)
That codex is nothing like Matts work at all, hell even Cruddaces codexs aren't as over the top
So why is that Wards work is the only one following this design?

As a thought experiment, let’s imagine that the time comes to write the next Tau codex.

Tom Kirby decides he wants to give Xenos a major boost, so he tells Matt Ward to make the codex awesome, and to reveal the Emporer as the Secret Power Behind The Tau, thus establishing them as the new rulers of the IoM.

This sets up a fantastic civil war scenario, as pro-Emporer and pro-High Lords factions fight for control of the Astronimcan. Ward protests, saying this goes against established fluff.

Kirby sacks him and turns to Cruddance.

What would you do if you were Cruddance?

Kilkrazy wrote:As a thought experiment, let’s imagine that the time comes to write the next Tau codex.

Tom Kirby decides he wants to give Xenos a major boost, so he tells Matt Ward to make the codex awesome, and to reveal the Emporer as the Secret Power Behind The Tau, thus establishing them as the new rulers of the IoM.

This sets up a fantastic civil war scenario, as pro-Emporer and pro-High Lords factions fight for control of the Astronimcan. Ward protests, saying this goes against established fluff.

Kirby sacks him and turns to Cruddance.

What would you do if you were Cruddance?

Insert somewhere into the new Tau fluff a cliffhander for the Fifth God of Chaos to re-emege due to the new chaos enveloping the galaxy and a prelude to a new codex army.

reds8n wrote:

shrike wrote:I just noticed another one...
"the planet birmingham"
WTF? Couldn't they come up with anything else?

Actually Birmingham : aka the Black Planet has been in the 40k setting since RT times.

If it was in RT, it's there as a joke.
Birmingham is in/near the area known as the Black Country, named during the Industrial Revolution.
Not remembering what the original reference is, I assume the planet Birmingham is a forgeworld, and was named for the resemblance to the area of ancient Terra.

Or something. Nottingham's just up the road, after all.

Kilkrazy wrote:What would you do if you were Cruddance?

I'd wonder why Tom Kirby was calling the shots and ponder what had become of Alan Merrett.

Kilkrazy wrote:As a thought experiment, let’s imagine that the time comes to write the next Tau codex.

Tom Kirby decides he wants to give Xenos a major boost, so he tells Matt Ward to make the codex awesome, and to reveal the Emporer as the Secret Power Behind The Tau, thus establishing them as the new rulers of the IoM.

This sets up a fantastic civil war scenario, as pro-Emporer and pro-High Lords factions fight for control of the Astronimcan. Ward protests, saying this goes against established fluff.

Kirby sacks him and turns to Cruddance.

What would you do if you were Cruddance?

Interesting point. Looking at other industry sectors, what you propose as a possible chain of events, isn't necessarily beyond the realms of reality. Suggesting that Ward is juts a mouth piece for GW Corporate strategy (in relation to the product direction) seems viable.

In answer to your question "What would you do if you were Cruddance?"....I think it depends on your personal situation. If you're working at GW, and it's just a job, then of course you toe the line and watch as your name is dragged through the internet forum mud......but you go on paying your mortgage, and feeding your kids.

If, on the other hand, it's job but also a labour of passion (and this is the case with some people) then you'd probably stand by your guns and seek employment with another games developer.

I think the reason why people feel so strongly about this (and other happenings) is due to the fact that they believe WH40K could be so much better. Kinda like the girl who starts dating you in the hope you will change, only to find, 20 years down the line, it just isn't gonna happen

GW could help themselves in many ways, one would be to engage their fan base and seek advice.....it's not wrong or bowing to nerd rage if you do a customer survey and post the results for all to see. I think the biggest problem is that people feel they are losing touch with their own hobby because the decisions GW are endorsing leave them not knowing if up is down or down is up!

Ultimately, it is just a game, but GW themselves encourage people to treat it more than just a game......they can't have it both ways. People get excited when England doesn't qualify for the world cup, or their favorite racing driver is disqualified from a race.....I guess that is also a form of nerd rage....and yet..

The best way to avoid nerd rage over changes and price rises from GW is to play other games as well as 40K.

Once I've beefed up my Tyranid army for Platinum Devil 3, I shall switch my attention to Infinity and MERCS for a while.

Oh, I'm already there, currently the owner of all current MERC faction figures, ready to paint and play...which is no big feat really when you see the figure count required....

But also running with PanOceania, Nomads, Yu Jing, Aleph, and HaqqIslam and partly Ariadna...Mercs for Infinity don't count, but I have all of those as well Its gonna take me a lifetime to paint all of this stuff, especially as I have doubles in some case....

I guess then...NERD rage avoided

Delephont wrote:

In answer to your question "What would you do if you were Cruddance?"....I think it depends on your personal situation. If you're working at GW, and it's just a job, then of course you toe the line and watch as your name is dragged through the internet forum mud......but you go on paying your mortgage, and feeding your kids.

If, on the other hand, it's job but also a labour of passion (and this is the case with some people) then you'd probably stand by your guns and seek employment with another games developer.

Presumably, this situation is analogous to the Chambers debacle. I guess Andy decided his principles were worth more than the GW dollar. Good on him.

It is pretty hard to work for a corporation in a creative position. Basically you have to accommodate whatever crappy ideas the boss or Marketing come up with, regardless of your own ideas and experience.

Unfortunately, it's also pretty hard to get decent job security outside of a corporation.

Kilkrazy wrote:As a thought experiment, let’s imagine that the time comes to write the next Tau codex.

Tom Kirby decides he wants to give Xenos a major boost, so he tells Matt Ward to make the codex awesome, and to reveal the Emporer as the Secret Power Behind The Tau, thus establishing them as the new rulers of the IoM.

This sets up a fantastic civil war scenario, as pro-Emporer and pro-High Lords factions fight for control of the Astronimcan. Ward protests, saying this goes against established fluff.

Kirby sacks him and turns to Cruddance.

What would you do if you were Cruddance?

Give Devilfish APCs scouting, 3 twin linked rail guns, 4+ cover saves (constant), let 22 Firewarriors shoot of them---and make them 55 points?

Oh you mean fluff.

AgeOfEgos wrote:Give Devilfish APCs scouting, 3 twin linked rail guns, 4+ cover saves (constant), let 22 Firewarriors shoot of them---and make them 55 points?

Oh you mean fluff.

Too underwhelming.

Let's give it AV 12 all sides, immunity to meltas, no-scatter teleport beacons, +4 wound chances on opponents attacking it, allow it to teleport other Devilfish next to it, and make it a nice even 50.

^
with preferred enemy of everything...

here's another GK fluff facepalm:
"bending the path of projectiles and even energy beams around corners"

wait, so GK purgators (AKA GK devastators) can bend bullets?
This is kinda reaching Goto level if this carries on...
and they can live through an orbital bombardment to the head?

shrike wrote:^
with preferred enemy of everything...

here's another GK fluff facepalm:
"bending the path of projectiles and even energy beams around corners"

wait, so GK purgators (AKA GK devastators) can bend bullets?
This is kinda reaching Goto level if this carries on...
and they can live through an orbital bombardment to the head?

This is even worse than Goto.... Its something worse.... Its Twilight Level. Oh Dear god. SOUND THE ALERT!
TWILIGHT LEVEL BOYS GET THE DAMN CANNONS READY TO KILL THOSE MAT WARD APOLOGISTS!

AWWOOOOOOOGHHHAAAAAAA!!!

AWWOOOOOOOGHHHAAAAAAA!!!

*shrug*

Since 3rd edition things have been getting sillier and sillier anyway...

Hey remember when dark eldar were just scary webway eldar and then they turned into an innumerable swarm of immortal space pain-vampires? Ones that can regrow their entire bodies from fingers?

MikeMcSomething wrote:Hey remember when dark eldar were just scary webway eldar and then they turned into an innumerable swarm of immortal space pain-vampires?

Ah, but do you also remember when Dark Eldar were Slaanesh-worshipping Chaos Eldar, and then they turned into scary webway eldar?

I remember when my orks had mohawks and beer keg plasma cannon, Marines had jetbikes and rhinos were bought in packs of three for less than the current kit goes for..

Remember when WD told you how to scratchbuild models and scenery instead of buying it?

insaniak wrote:

MikeMcSomething wrote:Hey remember when dark eldar were just scary webway eldar and then they turned into an innumerable swarm of immortal space pain-vampires?

Ah, but do you also remember when Dark Eldar were Slaanesh-worshipping Chaos Eldar, and then they turned into scary webway eldar?

Rarr let's start a petition!

Pepridge Farm Remembers!

MikeMcSomething wrote:

insaniak wrote:

MikeMcSomething wrote:Hey remember when dark eldar were just scary webway eldar and then they turned into an innumerable swarm of immortal space pain-vampires?

Ah, but do you also remember when Dark Eldar were Slaanesh-worshipping Chaos Eldar, and then they turned into scary webway eldar?

Rarr let's start a petition!

Ascalam wrote:I remember when my orks had mohawks and beer keg plasma cannon, Marines had jetbikes and rhinos were bought in packs of three for less than the current kit goes for..

Remember when WD told you how to scratchbuild models and scenery instead of buying it?

I still have some epic kegger plasma orks. Me likey.

I should never have sold mine. They'd make great Flash Gitz with a little added bling..

Ascalam wrote:I should never have sold mine. They'd make great Flash Gitz with a little added bling..

I'm too new that I don't even know about them!

Flash Gitz to me are the bane of all existance and should never see the light of day.

Mine are actually feared in my group, due to some lucky rolling

They never seem to remember the time that the whole unit Got Hot, and killed themselves off in a spate of 1's