The Imperium has taken on every threat imaginable. But what if the "heart" of the IoM was attacked by a Tyranid Hive Fleet? Is it possible a Tyranid Hive Fleet could overwhelm the Imperium's seat of power? Various fluff has really left the question blank, but what if a Super Hive Fleet were to drift into the system?

As we know, the Necrons are buddies with the BA, and therefor also the rest of the Imperium. Since Mars holds one of the C'tan, and he's one of the rulers of the Necrons, he'd prolly see the 'Nids coming and leave his isolation to go kill them off, thereby saving the IoM. Don't worry emperor, Necrons got your back.

Not for a very long time, and not until after the rest of the imperium is picked clean.

The Hive fleet is drifting because its actually wrecked???

I' guess a nid fleet, even the super extra large one, survives 5 secs. Or maybe just 4....

When you see Terra's defenses....
You get the idea that almost nothing less than Chaos Gods can breach them, and we question even them....
And what my friend ( a Tyranid player ) once said: Tyranids must eat trough half of the Imperium only to reach Terra...
Hope this answer your question...

Brother Coa wrote:
And what my friend ( a Tyranid player ) once said: Tyranids must eat trough half of the Imperium only to reach Terra...

Why?

Tyranids have come up through the plane of the galactic disc before, why couldn't they just hit Terra from above or below? Fluff for the NIds fully support the notion that Tyranids could ignore the entire Imperium and attack Sol directly, assuming they know where it is or how important it is.

Platuan4th wrote:
Why?

Tyranids have come up through the plane of the galactic disc before, why couldn't they just hit Terra from above or below? Fluff for the NIds fully support the notion that Tyranids could ignore the entire Imperium and attack Sol directly, assuming they know where it is or how important it is.

Because space is 3-D, and there are planets above and below Terra occupied by the Imperium. There isn't just one layer of planetary bodies, so they'd have to at least go past other planets. They would almost certainly be spotted before they ever reach Sol. Even if they did, they'd struggle to do any serious damage to its defences. I honestly can't see the Tyranids having much hope of conquering the most strongly guarded Imperial system in the galaxy especially considering the amount of reinforcements that would be recalled to Terra.

SomeRandomEvilGuy wrote:

Platuan4th wrote:
Why?

Tyranids have come up through the plane of the galactic disc before, why couldn't they just hit Terra from above or below? Fluff for the NIds fully support the notion that Tyranids could ignore the entire Imperium and attack Sol directly, assuming they know where it is or how important it is.

Because space is 3-D, and there are planets above and below Terra occupied by the Imperium. There isn't just one layer of planetary bodies, so they'd have to at least go past other planets. They would almost certainly be spotted before they ever reach Sol. Even if they did, they'd struggle to do any serious damage to its defences. I honestly can't see the Tyranids having much hope of conquering the most strongly guarded Imperial system in the galaxy especially considering the amount of reinforcements that would be recalled to Terra.

Read the Tyranid Codex. Not only did the Imperium not know they were coming from above/below before it happened, they never even considered it an option. Space may be 3D, but it's very much not treated that way in the 40K Universe.

Also, I think you're seriously underestimating the military might of a Tyranid Hive Fleet.

Azure wrote:As we know, the Necrons are buddies with the BA, and therefor also the rest of the Imperium. Since Mars holds one of the C'tan, and he's one of the rulers of the Necrons, he'd prolly see the 'Nids coming and leave his isolation to go kill them off, thereby saving the IoM. Don't worry emperor, Necrons got your back.

This. You're a regular Oscar Wilde, Azure.

I am also a Tyranid player and I love them to death. However, they could not take on sol. The main fleet will have to come in Eat EVERYTHING else then MAYBE eat Sol. Thats pushing it though and im still giving favour to my bugs

We don't even know how big the main Hive Fleet is, so who can even begin to come to the conclusion that the Tyranids are not fully capable of taking out Sol?

If any of Kryptman's theories have merit, the size of the main fleet is so big it will require arming every Imperial citizen with a lasgun if they are to even hope to stand a chance. Theoretically, the Hive Fleet could number in anywhere from a couple million, to billions or trillions of Tyranid vessels containing hundreds of trillions of Tyranid biomonstrosities that all have the tactical know-how of the past fleets. The Tyranids are an intergalactic alien monstrosity who have proven their potency many times; the Imperium, and we, for that matter, have very little knowledge of what they are actually capable of. Don't count them out.

Tyrannids have already attacked terra.

what do you think "dinosaurs" are?

I definitely never counted them out. I just know for a fact that every armed Imperial soldier would come to sol if it meant saving the Emperor from being nom'ed.

xXSir MontyXx wrote:I just know for a fact that every armed Imperial soldier would come to sol if it meant saving the Emperor from being nom'ed.

According to Kryptman, that might not be enough.

Well I have a feeling that they would listen to kryptman if they saw a fleet of this magnitude ready to spank the imperium.

xXSir MontyXx wrote:I definitely never counted them out. I just know for a fact that every armed Imperial soldier would come to sol if it meant saving the Emperor from being nom'ed.

So they'd just abandon dozens, if not hundreds of active warzones as well as the Eye of Terra? You're talking about an entire galaxy's worth of fighting retreats to attempt to save one world.

I understand that the Emperor is on Terra, but it's a logistical nightmare that's impossible to achieve without crippling and abandoning the Imperium.

Platuan4th wrote:

xXSir MontyXx wrote:I definitely never counted them out. I just know for a fact that every armed Imperial soldier would come to sol if it meant saving the Emperor from being nom'ed.

So they'd just abandon dozens, if not hundreds of active warzones as well as the Eye of Terra? You're talking about an entire galaxy's worth of fighting retreats to attempt to save one world.

I understand that the Emperor is on Terra, but it's a logistical nightmare that's impossible to achieve without crippling and abandoning the Imperium.

Whereas if the astronomican goes down then the imperium would be crippled and dissolve.

Kobayashi maru.

corpsesarefun wrote:

Platuan4th wrote:

xXSir MontyXx wrote:I definitely never counted them out. I just know for a fact that every armed Imperial soldier would come to sol if it meant saving the Emperor from being nom'ed.

So they'd just abandon dozens, if not hundreds of active warzones as well as the Eye of Terra? You're talking about an entire galaxy's worth of fighting retreats to attempt to save one world.

I understand that the Emperor is on Terra, but it's a logistical nightmare that's impossible to achieve without crippling and abandoning the Imperium.

Whereas if the astronomican goes down then the imperium would be crippled and dissolve.

Kobayashi maru.

Exactly, supply lines to these important war-zones would be extremely hazardous and if you and your crew weren't annihilated by deamons in the warp you may not even end up at your destination. These front-lines would be okay for a while but the Imperium would eventually end up like the Tau if the Tyranid ate Terra. Only holding onto a couple of worlds due to their lack of reliable warp travel.

O

Platuan4th wrote:

xXSir MontyXx wrote:I definitely never counted them out. I just know for a fact that every armed Imperial soldier would come to sol if it meant saving the Emperor from being nom'ed.

So they'd just abandon dozens, if not hundreds of active warzones as well as the Eye of Terra? You're talking about an entire galaxy's worth of fighting retreats to attempt to save one world.

I understand that the Emperor is on Terra, but it's a logistical nightmare that's impossible to achieve without crippling and abandoning the Imperium.

I say they take off and nuke the entire site from orbit.
Its the only way to be sure.

Isnt the thing about nids is that no matter how many hive fleets is taken down, more keep coming from vast empty darkness of outerspace?

So it would be a case of "when" and not "if the tyranids invade earth.

i'm pretty sure the Nid's have some idea that Terra is important. Im pretty sure something in the new 'Nids codex says that the Hive Mind is drawn to the light of the astronomican being generated from Terra...

Potato_God wrote:i'm pretty sure the Nid's have some idea that Terra is important. Im pretty sure something in the new 'Nids codex says that the Hive Mind is drawn to the light of the astronomican being generated from Terra...

Doesn't it? I thought I read that somewhere. Though I cant remember at all where I saw it.

Genestealer infestation is a real threat to Terra imo. One of them could easily infiltrate a transport and eventually dock at Terra.

Tyranids aren't stupid, they know Terra is the center of humanity by now and they know that destroying it would result in the disintegration of the Imperium, which would make their objective of consuming humanity easier.

The main problem is the defenses on Terra are just so massive that nothing the Tyranids have shown yet would be able to stand much of a chance against it. Even the combined might of all 3 Hive Fleets would probably fail in the face of the kind of forces the Imperium could muster.

Terra's defenses make Maccragge look like some isolated outpost.


the fleet took serious losses to land on Maccragge.



the Nids would lose alot of Biomass to take Terra with very little return.


first they would have the fight past all the outer planets.

then they would have to get past Saturn where the best ship crews in the imperium are trained and recruited.

then Mars. the Ad Mech has alot of nasty things in those vaults. and not much Biomass for Nids to eat

then Luna and Terra.


all the while, facing the largest fleet ever to prowl the void since the dawn of time. you can bet that it wouldn't just be Battlefleet Solar, but probably at least a dozen sector fleet too.


the Hive Mind wouldn't attack Terra unless it could make the Biomass gained worth while. i doubt the energy and mass would be worth the massive loss.

xXSir MontyXx wrote:

Potato_God wrote:i'm pretty sure the Nid's have some idea that Terra is important. Im pretty sure something in the new 'Nids codex says that the Hive Mind is drawn to the light of the astronomican being generated from Terra...

Doesn't it? I thought I read that somewhere. Though I cant remember at all where I saw it.

The double page galactic map showing Leviathans movements. It points to Terra, and says that the Astronomican is leading the Tyranids there.

As for having to eat through the entire Imperium, not so. Tyranids can and have attacked from beneath the galactic plane, which cuts out a significant amount of fighting that needs to be done, plus there's two more making their way there through segmentum pacificus.

Darth Bob wrote:

xXSir MontyXx wrote:I just know for a fact that every armed Imperial soldier would come to sol if it meant saving the Emperor from being nom'ed.

According to Kryptman, that might not be enough.

Yes, well, the thing to remember is that Kryptman is merely making guesses. He's one of the smartest guys around when it comes to the Tyranids, but he has no way of really knowing how many hive fleets are out there, or how big the rest of them are. NO ONE knows, since we're talking about aliens that are (probably - assuming that there are actually more of them; almost certain, but not completely guaranteed) out beyond the galactic rim.

Either way, that would be an awesome campaign and box set!

a Campaign of combination BFG and 40k(appocalypse naturally)

Jihadnik wrote:Either way, that would be an awesome campaign and box set!

That would have to be a big box.

Ooo, now that would be sweet...If only I hadn't thrown out all my BFG models years ago...sigh...

Altzer wrote:

Jihadnik wrote:Either way, that would be an awesome campaign and box set!

That would have to be a big box.

I'd buy it.

Even if it was for two armies I don't play and cost 200 dollars haha

Is there any other kind of GW box?!

Contrary to popular belief, predators are lazy. A predator will go for the easiest prey first, and this would be better for the Tyranids as well. If the Tyranids take out everything else first, the Sol system will be run out of resources and will be surrounded. So, no, Tyranids cannot take on Sol now, but if they do it right, one day they will.

If you consider that the initial Hive Fleets were probably assessing defenses that the Milky Ways races have, and if they realize the importance of Terra, they wouldn't go after it until they've bled the outer systems dry.

Considering they've probably conquered a few galactic civilisations before reaching this galaxy, they'd know attacking the seat of power without stripping its resources away is a prettty silly thing to do.

-Loki- wrote:
Considering they've probably conquered a few galactic civilizations before reaching this galaxy.

Where did you learn that? We only know that they have consumed 1 galaxy ( their original ), where did you hear that they consume few civilizations?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Platuan4th wrote:
Also, I think you're seriously underestimating the military might of a Tyranid Hive Fleet.

One word: Macragge
Few more: Malan'tai, Iyanden, Idharae, Tau, Black Nebula, Tarsis Ultra....

Brother Coa wrote:

-Loki- wrote:
Considering they've probably conquered a few galactic civilizations before reaching this galaxy.

Where did you learn that? We only know that they have consumed 1 galaxy ( their original ), where did you hear that they consume few civilizations?

Where did you learn that? We know know they don't come from our galaxy.

However, the fluff for the Swarmlord mentions other names it is known by, and there's quite a few. I took is as an obscure reference to other large civilisations destroyed before attacking the Milky Way. It's also why I said probably.

Brother Coa wrote:Automatically Appended Next Post:

Platuan4th wrote:
Also, I think you're seriously underestimating the military might of a Tyranid Hive Fleet.

One word: Macragge
Few more: Malan'tai, Iyanden, Idharae, Tau, Black Nebula, Tarsis Ultra....

One word - small.

According to the 5th edition codex, even Behemoth wasn't an overly large Hive Fleet. It was smaller than Kraken and Leviathan. It was, however, the first Tyranid hive fleet that the Imperium took notice of.

Do you know how much the Imperium lost at Macragge? The Ultramarines lost not only their entire 1st company, but other Marines from other companies. The 1st company was only defending the polar fortresses, it wasn't doing the bulk of the fighting. Then consider the bulk of the Ultima Segmentums Imperial Guard was defending Macragge as well, most of whom perished. Then consider the Ultima Segmentums fleet was severely crippled, so much so that the final battle at Circe required the recruitment of any merchants and rogue traders unlucky enough to be nearby, and they still nearly lost.

Iyanden was nearly completely wiped out. They lost a huge amount of their population as well as their ancestors due to requiring their aid as Wraithguard. Iyanden itself was nearly destroyed, and was only saved by another large Eldar fleet arriving like a good little Deus Ex Machina. Kraken as a whole was actually not defeated either.

Awesome that you list Malan'tai, a craftworld destroyed by a single Tyranid entity. The Tau were lucky in that the Imperium didn't want to fight two opponents, and went into an alliance. If it was just the Tau, hive fleet Gorgon would have rolled right through the Tau empire without breaking a sweat.

The Hive Fleets Kraken and Behemoth were both skin-of-your-teeth victories, won by plot armour and a literal Deus Ex Machina in both cases. One of the flaws with the Tyranid fluff.

-Loki- wrote:

Brother Coa wrote:

-Loki- wrote:
Considering they've probably conquered a few galactic civilizations before reaching this galaxy.

Where did you learn that? We only know that they have consumed 1 galaxy ( their original ), where did you hear that they consume few civilizations?

Where did you learn that? We know know they don't come from our galaxy.

However, the fluff for the Swarmlord mentions other names it is known by, and there's quite a few. I took is as an obscure reference to other large civilisations destroyed before attacking the Milky Way. It's also why I said probably.

Brother Coa wrote:Automatically Appended Next Post:

Platuan4th wrote:
Also, I think you're seriously underestimating the military might of a Tyranid Hive Fleet.

One word: Macragge
Few more: Malan'tai, Iyanden, Idharae, Tau, Black Nebula, Tarsis Ultra....

One word - small.

According to the 5th edition codex, even Behemoth wasn't an overly large Hive Fleet. It was smaller than Kraken and Leviathan. It was, however, the first Tyranid hive fleet that the Imperium took notice of.

Do you know how much the Imperium lost at Macragge? The Ultramarines lost not only their entire 1st company, but other Marines from other companies. The 1st company was only defending the polar fortresses, it wasn't doing the bulk of the fighting. Then consider the bulk of the Ultima Segmentums Imperial Guard was defending Macragge as well, most of whom perished. Then consider the Ultima Segmentums fleet was severely crippled, so much so that the final battle at Circe required the recruitment of any merchants and rogue traders unlucky enough to be nearby, and they still nearly lost.

Iyanden was nearly completely wiped out. They lost a huge amount of their population as well as their ancestors due to requiring their aid as Wraithguard. Iyanden itself was nearly destroyed, and was only saved by another large Eldar fleet arriving like a good little Deus Ex Machina. Kraken as a whole was actually not defeated either.

Awesome that you list Malan'tai, a craftworld destroyed by a single Tyranid entity. The Tau were lucky in that the Imperium didn't want to fight two opponents, and went into an alliance. If it was just the Tau, hive fleet Gorgon would have rolled right through the Tau empire without breaking a sweat.

The Hive Fleets Kraken and Behemoth were both skin-of-your-teeth victories, won by plot armour and a literal Deus Ex Machina in both cases. One of the flaws with the Tyranid fluff.

Whatever....the point is: you lost. And the races of the Milky way have recover while you lost your precious biomass.
As for the Leviathan - they will be stopped soon enough.
I have one question dough: what evidence you have ( except Tyranid codex and wild guess ) that there is a LARGE Tyranid fleet coming?
I would say that Leviathan is that fleet and that there is no other Tyranid fleet left except it....

Brother Coa wrote:Whatever....the point is: you lost. And the races of the Milky way have recover while you lost your precious biomass.

Except they didn't 'lose'. They weren't there to destroy Macragge, they weren't there to destroy Iyanden. They were there to feed. While the fleet was beaten back, splinter fleets are still around getting bigger. There's a major hive fleet listed in the 5th edition codex that started as a Kraken splinter fleet.

You don't so much beat Tyranids as exterminate them. Unless exterminated, small populations, even populations stuck on a planet, can consume and regrow a hive ship. And so far, the Imperium has sucked at exterminating them. There's still remnants of Behemoth on Macgragge. The Imperiums most awesomesauce Space Marine chapter can't even exterminate the Tyranids fro it's own homeworld. They only manage to beat them at an engagement and then ignore the threat that is left.

Brother Coa wrote:As for the Leviathan - they will be stopped soon enough.

Yeah, because the Imperium has had such a great success fighting Leviathan. 3-4 Space Marine homeworlds lost, uncounted other worlds they're making fighting retreats on, a major Forgeworld (Gryphonne IV), and managed to lure them into a war that's only making that tendril of Leviathan stronger. Good job there.

Brother Coa wrote:I have one question dough: what evidence you have ( except Tyranid codex and wild guess ) that there is a LARGE Tyranid fleet coming?

The same amount of information that people use to say that the Tyranids are fleeing another race - conjecture in the codex fluff. The current fleets being 'the tip of an iceberg' is referenced through the codices.

Brother Coa wrote:I would say that Leviathan is that fleet and that there is no other Tyranid fleet left except it....

You'd be wrong. More hive fleets have appeared after Leviathan. Read the codex.

-Loki- wrote:
You'd be wrong. More hive fleets have appeared after Leviathan. Read the codex.

Ok, then our codex said that in the end times, the Emepror will resurrect ( star child ) and become a true god ( new entity in the Warp ), Primarchs will return and all enemies of Man ( including GREAT Tyranid fleet ) will be destroyed by the Emperor and his endless legions of Space Marines.
So all non-humans will be in the end.

Brother Coa wrote:

-Loki- wrote:
You'd be wrong. More hive fleets have appeared after Leviathan. Read the codex.

Ok, then our codex said that in the end times, the Emepror will resurrect ( star child ) and become a true god ( new entity in the Warp ), Primarchs will return and all enemies of Man ( including GREAT Tyranid fleet ) will be destroyed by the Emperor and his endless legions of Space Marines.
So all non-humans will be in the end.

No argument from me - I was just correcting you. You said Leviathan would be the last hive fleet. It's not. You don't need to get snarky because you are making statements without reading the fluff.

Well, planets can be put into the Warp, according to Mr Ward, so I guess they would just move Terra into the warp out of the way ...

Oh wait, silly me, Titan was only a moon ... TERRA IS SQROOODDD

-Loki- wrote:
No argument from me - I was just correcting you. You said Leviathan would be the last hive fleet. It's not. You don't need to get snarky because you are making statements without reading the fluff.

http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Tyranids#Hive_Fleets

The last one to enter the galaxy is Hive Fleet Leviathan. No other after her is mentioned, I consider this fluff.

Brother Coa wrote:

-Loki- wrote:
No argument from me - I was just correcting you. You said Leviathan would be the last hive fleet. It's not. You don't need to get snarky because you are making statements without reading the fluff.

http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Tyranids#Hive_Fleets

The last one to enter the galaxy is Hive Fleet Leviathan. No other after her is mentioned, I consider this fluff.

Misunderstanding...

Loki said it would not be the last and it won't.

You are saying it was the last (most recent) to attack and it was, but it won't be the last to attack.

As for the Emperor, in his state of undeath and weakness he would be sucked up into a tube and dissolved into paste for bio-mass. Thinking he is at this point anything more than a pysker veggie is kinda pointless. His strength is old history, Horus beasted on him and left him in a state of nothingness. Any speculation as what would happen if he died in terms of being rezzed, becoming a God, etc etc is purely speculation. Unless someone has a sanctioned piece of fluff to link that supports otherwise.

All we know for sure, is that if he died the IoM would lose reliable warp travel.

Platuan4th wrote:
Read the Tyranid Codex. Not only did the Imperium not know they were coming from above/below before it happened, they never even considered it an option. Space may be 3D, but it's very much not treated that way in the 40K Universe.

I assumed that that was because of the angles of the other Hive Fleets, not because they thought it was actually physically impossible. Now that they realise just how far the Tyranids have travelled, they may also be on more of a look out. Besides, it was also detected long before it reached Terra. That suggests, to me at least, that it can't just sneak up on Terra.

Also, I think you're seriously underestimating the military might of a Tyranid Hive Fleet.

They've been defeated before by vastly inferior forces to the ones defending Sol. It would have to be on a much larger scale than any seen before.

Darth Bob wrote:If any of Kryptman's theories have merit, the size of the main fleet is so big it will require arming every Imperial citizen with a lasgun if they are to even hope to stand a chance.

I've heard of a theory from Conclave that stated that one of the Segmentums would have to increase mobilisation by 500% (effectively placing every man, woman and child under arms). Is this the same one?

BeefCakeSoup wrote:Any speculation as what would happen if he died in terms of being rezzed, becoming a God, etc etc is purely speculation. Unless someone has a sanctioned piece of fluff to link that supports otherwise.

Same goes for your "tip of the iceberg", there is no speculation or proof that there is a "huge Tyranid fleet" that will attack the galaxy. If our codex is not true for the Emperor, then yours is also false when comparing to the great fleet.

The Tyranid Hive Fleets could just be the scouts, the harbingers of a greater menace from another galaxy that will overwhelm the Imperium and every other race in one chittering wave of chitin and jaws and ever-hungering death.

Or, as has been speculated before, they could be the very last remnants of a once huge race, pushed out of their galaxy in one last, desperate gamble to survive, chased and forced to scavenge and sustain themselves as they travel.

The real question then is this: what could they be fleeing from?

They are fleeing from the outsider, terrified that He will infect the hive mind.

woodbok wrote:They are fleeing from the outsider, terrified that He will infect the hive mind.

Run for your lives! But lets grab a snack on the way.

The tyranids may be fleeing or simply moving on to new sources of biomass. Considering the IMMENSE distance between galaxies, and the amount of resources they would have to consume to cross that distance, the hive fleets which are now in the 40k galaxy are actually quite smaller than they originally were. And even if they were to be fleeing from another, mightier race, they would have to have still consumed at least 6-7 different dominant civilizations as per their fluff, their weaponry and organisms are directly derived from what they consume (biovore, ork based, zoanthropes more or less eldar mutations, warriors space marines, etc etc) but then other species already present with behemoth's arrival, such as carnifex, hive tyrants, lictors, termagants, they would have had to have been consumed and mutated/generated from conquered organisms.

As for the size of hive fleets and if any more are coming, there isn't really too much to support another hive fleet on its way, but considering what has already come, it is a likelyhood that more are coming as this galaxy is proving to be more stubborn to consume. And as for size, well, considering every new hive fleet that has arrived after behemoth has doubled in size (not counting the smaller specialized fleets) I would say not only the imperium, but everyone on the eastern fringe is in serious trouble. Even the necrons, a race older than any other in the galaxy(save for possibly tyranids now) is being forced to engage these creatures, an encounter completely counter to their goal since tyranids are soulless, nothing for their gods to consume. There has proved to been only one race actually robust enough to truly WIN a fight against the tyranids, and by win i mean defeat them without losing 90% or more of their defense force, and that race is orks.

Tyranids don't yet have a solid defense against a full fledged waaaaagh! as Orks are a rare breed in that no matter the losses, more orks will be drawn to the fight.

Its possible the entire imperium of man could destroy the current major hivefleet, leviathan, on its own, and I say its possible, not neccessarily an absolute as many things come into play with a hive fleet that makes fighting it difficult, but if the imperium were to do that, they would be overwhelmed by everything else, namely chaos.

The last comment I will make is that fighting the tyranids with a war of attrition is a losing battle, they dont leave worlds to be reconquered, they leave only dead worlds, and therefore nothing left to retake...

Brother Coa wrote:

-Loki- wrote:
No argument from me - I was just correcting you. You said Leviathan would be the last hive fleet. It's not. You don't need to get snarky because you are making statements without reading the fluff.

http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Tyranids#Hive_Fleets

The last one to enter the galaxy is Hive Fleet Leviathan. No other after her is mentioned, I consider this fluff.

If you looked further into it, you'd still find yourself wrong.

Hive Fleet Leviathan - 997.M41

Moloch is a minor Tyranid Hive Fleet plunging through the Ghoul Stars into the galactic north of the Galaxy as of 998.M41

From your precious Lexicanium.

-Loki- wrote:
From your precious Lexicanium.

Are you saying stuff on Lexicanum aren't true?
And I was talking about MAJOR hive fleets. Small ones are not counted for, they could just be small fragments of the large ones that came late.
If we count that there is 6 more Hive Fleets entering the galaxy, all minor fleets.

Sorry, I couldn't hear you over the sound of you moving the goalposts.

I never said major hive fleets, neither did you. You said no hive fleets have entered the galaxy since Leviathan.

Major hive fleets are big narrative changes, of course none have appeared since Leviathan. There's no need, narratively, since the Imperium is still fighting like buggery trying to fight it back.

The imperium has literally trillions of humans in it, the tyranids scour planets because they only have a few billion on. If they hit Terra and 100 billion IG rocked up, they could wipe the tyranids out if they issued everyone a pocket knife.

And how many space marines would turn up?! Even if every chapter only sent one company each your talking a 100,000 astartes.

And Titan is just down the road, add every GK as well.

And inquisition, assassins, pdf etc etc

The whole point is that the imperium is so big, planets get nommed all the time by all the different races. It's big strength is also its big weakness (vast size)

But if you try to feth with Terra, your doomed!

-Loki- wrote:
I never said major hive fleets, neither did you. You said no hive fleets have entered the galaxy since Leviathan.

Major hive fleets are big narrative changes, of course none have appeared since Leviathan. There's no need, narratively, since the Imperium is still fighting like buggery trying to fight it back.

And that is because I don't consider them a threat. I consider only major Hive Fleets a threat to the Imperium, the lesser ones are dealt with easily ( almost every listed smaller one is destroyed ).

In that case, if we count every Human that can held a weapon on planet Tyranid invasions just became more harder.
And why listing only Humanity? Necrons are even worse foes for Tyranids than Imperium.


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mattyrm wrote:The imperium has literally trillions of humans in it, the tyranids scour planets because they only have a few billion on. If they hit Terra and 100 billion IG rocked up, they could wipe the tyranids out if they issued everyone a pocket knife.

And how many space marines would turn up?! Even if every chapter only sent one company each your talking a 100,000 astartes.

And Titan is just down the road, add every GK as well.

And inquisition, assassins, pdf etc etc

The whole point is that the imperium is so big, planets get nommed all the time by all the different races. It's big strength is also its big weakness (vast size)

But if you try to feth with Terra, your doomed!

They can only dream about Terra, her fleet is so wast that noon ever got to it. Even Necron fleet was destroyed as soon as landed, and that was on Mars.

Jihadnik wrote:Ooo, now that would be sweet...If only I hadn't thrown out all my BFG models years ago...sigh...

Hehehehee I still have mine in mint condition. I never even put the models together.

Terra is pretty much off limits to most.
Chances of bringing it down are pretty damn slim, i mean, 13 failed crusades by 1 person? there would have been a hint along the way.

But, fluff hides too much from plain view.
Hive fleets are never really mentioned in any great deal as to strength or numbers, let along structure.
Things like the domanatrix make a guest appearence in the book, and thats it.
Norn queen? she gets 1 line in the book.
and she is the same to nids and golden toilet boy is to the imperium.

The fact of the matter is, no one knows enough about all of the factors to give a truely accurate answer.




and 40k Lex is hardly fluff, its a fansite, the same as wiki.
Fluff would be from official GW books (as poorly as they may be written)

Jackal wrote:
Fluff would be from official GW books (as poorly as they may be written)

Like DoW Tempest?

Brother Coa wrote:

They can only dream about Terra, her fleet is so wast that noon ever got to it. Even Necron fleet was destroyed as soon as landed, and that was on Mars.

Though it was stated the 5 or so Necron Cruisers were only destroyed at a great cost to the Ad Mech, and Mars is probably the 2nd most heavily defended planet in the galaxy after Terra.

mattyrm wrote:The imperium has literally trillions of humans in it, the tyranids scour planets because they only have a few billion on. If they hit Terra and 100 billion IG rocked up, they could wipe the tyranids out if they issued everyone a pocket knife.

And how many space marines would turn up?! Even if every chapter only sent one company each your talking a 100,000 astartes.

And Titan is just down the road, add every GK as well.

And inquisition, assassins, pdf etc etc

The whole point is that the imperium is so big, planets get nommed all the time by all the different races. It's big strength is also its big weakness (vast size)

But if you try to feth with Terra, your doomed!

Shadow in Warp - No reinforcements, Nids do not need to attack terra. They can just take some of the other planets put a big shadow in the warp around the planet then and Terra will die from over poulation as it has to rely on other plantets to bring it food etc. Nids lose no biomass

Some points of note.

The most recent Tyranid codex weakened them in fluff by making it clear that the fleets and their splinters are extremely hypermetabolic when in a state of war/consuming worlds and that by drawing the fleet into an extended war of attrition or doing what the eldar have been doing and wiping out all life on nearby worlds, they starve themselves into a state of exhaustion and can then be broken and eradicated.

The Star Child lore was introduced in Realm of Chaos: The Lost and The Damned. It has never clearly and totally been refuted, some reference to a star child cult being uncovered as a Tzeentchian cult and being wiped out in the 3rd ed fluff could relate to a tzeentchian cult masquerading as a star child cult, the inquisition wiping out an actual star child cult and claiming it was tzeentchian. What is made clear in the RoC:TL&TD was that the sensei, the children of the Emperor, were scattered to the far ends of the galaxy and that the Star Child was indeed very real and waiting to be born in the warp. Wiping out a cult in some part of the galaxy that may or may not have been working for the Star Child or Tzeentch does not alter the fluff about the Star Child, unless that cult wrote RoC:TL&TD...

Also, drawing lines of absolutes based on Codex fluff is a never ending source of argument as each book is written with a strong bias to the army or faction it describes.

My Ork codex follows the fluff of the previous tyranid codex that the war between ork and tyranid was in a perpetual stalemate. It's highly likely that, due to the last tyranid codex 'upping the anti', that in the next Ork codex, the Orks will be winning that Kryptman gambit...

Just remember that 'at a terrible cost' reads a lot more interesting than 'crushed without breaking a sweat'.

Harriticus wrote:

Brother Coa wrote:

They can only dream about Terra, her fleet is so wast that noon ever got to it. Even Necron fleet was destroyed as soon as landed, and that was on Mars.

Though it was stated the 5 or so Necron Cruisers were only destroyed at a great cost to the Ad Mech, and Mars is probably the 2nd most heavily defended planet in the galaxy after Terra.

the Ad mech didn't take huge losses.

only a couple made it the surface and was promptly vaporized by 2 titan legions.

Grey Templar wrote:


the Ad mech didn't take huge losses.

only a couple made it the surface and was promptly vaporized by 2 titan legions.

the fact the 1 ship that landed was VAPORIZED tells us something.

High cost in this case means that the Ad Mech lost more ships then is normal when destroying an enemy ship of that tonnage.

The fact is that Mars has orbital defenses comparable to Terra, and yet a mere 5 Necron ships managed to inflicted "fearfully high" casualties in a raid. It's rather telling.

but this is the Crons we are talking about.


the most advanced race that has ever existed.


the Nids dont even compare.

As for the "Emperor's just a vegetable" theory, freezing time itself while speaking to someone is part of the everyday life of a piece of broccoli?

Non-sapient predators tend to migrate to where prey has higher population density, and tend to target the weakest of prey when there are options available. Sapient predators tend to herd prey to maximise their takings, and tend to kill or tame alpha individuals so as to make predation safer. Both can end up overpredating and wiping out prey, or else reach an equilibrium state. The Tyranids have been observed to do all of these.

Scenario: the Tyranids learn that Terra is the lynchpin of their second most populous prey's ability to organise to defend itself, and launch an all-or-nothing attack

My predicted outcome: mutually assured destruction. The Tyranids could maybe pull various tricks - fly in when the planets are favourably aligned, blot out Sol with a fleet of unprecedented (by any race) size, silence the Astronomicon & disable psykers (including GK) & cause mass suicides with the biggest Shadow in the Warp ever seen, and have a fairly established Genestealer cult. In such a situation, they might be able to get enough gribblies past the defences to consume Terra. They would almost certainly not be able to farm enough biomass to replenish their losses sufficiently to deal with the retaliation of every latecoming Navy/Astates/etc fleet that managed to get there, and the Imperium almost certainly would not be able to survive in its present form with such a massive weakening of defences against other races this would bring about. And if the Star Child stuff happens, it might even bring about a new renaissance for humanity.

Scenario: the Tyranids learn that Terra is the lynchpin of their second most populous prey's ability to organise to defend itself, and set about bringing it down

They probably wouldn't go near Terra until they'd already inflicted death by a thousand cuts on the wider Imperial economy. If the Sol system lost its imports and countless vassal systems, and those instead had been converted into Tyranid biomass, it's simple numbers. You eventually run out of interplanetary nukes. (Note: this scenario would be very difficult to distinguish from the present observed situation.)

Scenario: Games Workshop want to indefinitely sell Space Marine and Tyranid kits to their customers

Every Hive Fleet that qualifies as 'major' will either get defeated in a Pyrrhic victory and replaced with a new 'major' Hive Fleet appearing elsewhere, or else end up reaching equilibrium with Orks/Kroot/deathworld fauna/etc.

I like secenario two.

That won`t happen anyway, since 40k will be stuck in M41Y999 for all eternity.

Necanor wrote:That won`t happen anyway, since 40k will be stuck in M41Y999 for all eternity.

lol... Didn't see that one coming!

On topic... First you are arguing over which plastic model would beat another plastic model over a fight for a galaxy that will forever be in the year 40k.

Second there are multiple flaws in this thread. First, Terra has been there for thousands of years, and would not be able to be knocked out in a single blow by any of the current fleets. They might be able to attach it, just fail miserably like nearly everything else in the Nid codex.

Second...I forgot my second point.

Third, why would GW want Terra to be destroyed? That would mean we would know the end of the game. Its like playing the last level in a video game, and then trying to beat the rest of it, or watching the last ten minutes of a movie.

Necanor wrote:That won`t happen anyway, since 40k will be stuck in M41Y999 for all eternity.

6th Edition fluff section is gonna have a loooot of trouble if that's the case

Necanor wrote:That won`t happen anyway, since 40k will be stuck in M41Y999 for all eternity.

Fun sucker.

Harriticus wrote:

Necanor wrote:That won`t happen anyway, since 40k will be stuck in M41Y999 for all eternity.

6th Edition fluff section is gonna have a loooot of trouble if that's the case

They'll just do what they did with 5th ed: add in more fluff that covers things that happened in the last 1000 years. The fluff hasn't advanced since Medusa V(4th ed).

I believe the "main Tyranid fleet" theory comes from the fact that EVERY fleet has the same creatures. The Tyranid are a hyper-evolving race.... so if each fleet was doing its own thing in different galaxies there would be a lot more variety in the different fleet's. Not to mention the multiple directions they approach from. THe image that always pops into my mind is the milky way surrounded by a thick sea of Tyranid's all around and the occasional small percentage being sent in to toy with its inhabitants.

Also I believe the Hive-mind is a very "curious" thing, hence all of these special 'nids we hear so much about. (old one eye, doom of Malontai, etc) these different fleets could just be pokes and prod's to see what hurts this galaxy the worst, as to be more effecient in the final assault.

The most recent Tyranid codex weakened them in fluff by making it clear that the fleets and their splinters are extremely hypermetabolic when in a state of war/consuming worlds and that by drawing the fleet into an extended war of attrition or doing what the eldar have been doing and wiping out all life on nearby worlds, they starve themselves into a state of exhaustion and can then be broken and eradicated.

This bothers me, because the distance between galaxies in unimaginably large. How can they survive the distance when they are so hyper-metabolic? I am not saying you are wrong, I am just saying it is a mistake on GW's part. It says they are like this when they are in a state of war, however the hive-ships are ALWAYS awake including the narval. THese are Tyranid creatures as well and would also be hyper-metabolic. (all living things need sustenance).

xXSir MontyXx wrote:I believe the "main Tyranid fleet" theory comes from the fact that EVERY fleet has the same creatures. The Tyranid are a hyper-evolving race.... so if each fleet was doing its own thing in different galaxies there would be a lot more variety in the different fleet's. Not to mention the multiple directions they approach from. THe image that always pops into my mind is the milky way surrounded by a thick sea of Tyranid's all around and the occasional small percentage being sent in to toy with its inhabitants.

The main fleet theory comes from the fact that the 3rd edition Tyranid codex confirmed the main fleet theory: http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Strategic_Collective. It's canon, not a theory.

This bothers me, because the distance between galaxies in unimaginably large. How can they survive the distance when they are so hyper-metabolic? I am not saying you are wrong, I am just saying it is a mistake on GW's part. It says they are like this when they are in a state of war, however the hive-ships are ALWAYS awake including the narval. THese are Tyranid creatures as well and would also be hyper-metabolic. (all living things need sustenance)

The Tyranids remain in a state of hibernation in the Galactic void

I can see a major Nid hive fleet doing some serious damage to Terra, they beat the feth outtah Macargge, but outright destroy Terra? No, Its too damn important for the Imperium to afford to loose. The Imperium would throw everything at its disposal to destroy it. However, I can see the Imperium becoming so dstracted by an attack on Terra that Chaos could easily overtake many many many worlds and attack a weakened Terra and maybe overcome it.

Plus, If the Tyranids can make landfall, lots of civillians there. Lots of Biomass. The Tyranids could very easily launch a long and drawn out seige of Terra if they et a major landing force down.

The idea that the nids could use the shadow in the warp to surround Terra is bollocks. Sue it would block all coms to Teraa, but every one would run to Terra to see if everything was OK.

Also everyone seems to have forgotten the existance of the Custodians guarding the emprah.....

Besides id the imperium was slightly intelligent they would lift the 1,000,000 cap on marines and go sabbat(V:tM) tactics and mass charge the nids

Hlaine Larkin mk2 wrote:The idea that the nids could use the shadow in the warp to surround Terra is bollocks. Sue it would block all coms to Teraa, but every one would run to Terra to see if everything was OK.

Also everyone seems to have forgotten the existance of the Custodians guarding the emprah.....

Besides id the imperium was slightly intelligent they would lift the 1,000,000 cap on marines and go sabbat(V:tM) tactics and mass charge the nids

You can't come and help if you cant use warp travel. Mars and maybe titan could come but they do not have faster then light travel so by the time they get there they be fethed (as no warp travel as SOTW)

the Astronomican that close to the source might actually overpower the SitW and still shine through(weaker then normal)

Tyranids could use a jackal technique like Jormungandr did. Surround the system and ambush anything that trries to break in or out.

They could also just leave Terra to last.

Harriticus wrote:
The main fleet theory comes from the fact that the 3rd edition Tyranid codex confirmed the main fleet theory: http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Strategic_Collective. It's canon, not a theory.

That's an in-universe theory. It might not necessarily be true. The Inquisition and Magos Biologos are not always correct.

B455L1N3 wrote:You can't come and help if you cant use warp travel. Mars and maybe titan could come but they do not have faster then light travel so by the time they get there they be fethed (as no warp travel as SOTW)

They could use Warp travel to at least get near to Terra, unless the Hive Fleet is casting a Shadow sectors wide. Once, say, in the Sol system, an Imperial fleet would likely reach Terra fairly quickly even without faster than light travel. There's no way it's going to be an easy victory for the Tyranids, even if they could prevail.

xXSir MontyXx wrote:I believe the "main Tyranid fleet" theory comes from the fact that EVERY fleet has the same creatures. The Tyranid are a hyper-evolving race....

They don't actually. Hive Fleet Colossus was a fleet of living ships grown from stone, and the creatures were all 'centaur-like', and communicated telepathically even with Imperial forces.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

SomeRandomEvilGuy wrote:They could use Warp travel to at least get near to Terra, unless the Hive Fleet is casting a Shadow sectors wide. Once, say, in the Sol system, an Imperial fleet would likely reach Terra fairly quickly even without faster than light travel. There's no way it's going to be an easy victory for the Tyranids, even if they could prevail.

The shadow in the warp blocks the astronomican. The astronimican is required for humans to use warp travel in any reliable way. If they surrounded Terra, the astronomican would be entirely shut down for the rest of the Imperium. No one would be turning up in any significant numbers to do much.

I imagine that Terra must have psychic safeguards as well as physical ones. Astropaths scanning the heavens, mystics divining the future. Constantly. The only ones who could pull off a surprise attack are the Chaos gods, because the psychic reverberations of the impending pitched battle would be impossible to mask.

Inconceivable!

the Astronomican is extreamly powerful that near to Terra. it would likely be able to penetrate the Shadow.

I mean, that's a cool statement to make, but have you got some fluff to back it up? All that's been said regarding the astronomican and the shadow in the warp is the shadow is strong enough to block it.

You guys might need to remember that there is the Saturine fleet, and the Admech would unveil their most powerful weapons, and the custodes would be called out.

-Loki- wrote:I mean, that's a cool statement to make, but have you got some fluff to back it up? All that's been said regarding the astronomican and the shadow in the warp is the shadow is strong enough to block it.

yes, the Shadow does block it, but thats at the far edges of the galaxy where its already pretty weak.


at the source the Astronomican glows extreamly brightly.

And the darkness at the centre of a hive fleet surrounding that bright light? Who knows...

We have nothing much to go on on relative strengths other than both are extremely potent. No reference or barchart of relative strength. The fluff is rarely totally consistent even between books for armies of the same faction, let aslone between races

A point to note on the Necrons landing on Mars. Why bother landing, knowing you will be destroyed, unless you plan on it.

What happens when you kill Necrons? They teleport to the nearest Tomb. Noctis Labarinthus is a Tomb

Just a thought...

Ascalam wrote:And the darkness at the centre of a hive fleet surrounding that bright light? Who knows...

We have nothing much to go on on relative strengths other than both are extremely potent. No reference or barchart of relative strength. The fluff is rarely totally consistent even between books for armies of the same faction, let aslone between races

A point to note on the Necrons landing on Mars. Why bother landing, knowing you will be destroyed, unless you plan on it.

What happens when you kill Necrons? They teleport to the nearest Tomb. Noctis Labarinthus is a Tomb

Just a thought...

No thats only if they phase out.
Necrons can die. But being obliterated by Titans would mean there is nothing left.

Any when 75% of the crew are killed what happens, hmm?

Necrons can Phase Out by choice in the fluff, and return to the nearest Tomb when they do so.

Res Orbs are also wonderful devices Also the Ships are pretty sturdy. I imagine they had more than a millisecond before the ship caved in

All necrons, including the dead ones, Monoliths and those that can't teleport in-game like Pariahs teleport out if beaten (or of they choose to ) . Necron remains also go with them, which is why Necron stuff is hard to come by for study ...

If hundreds of thousands of chaos marines couldn't do it a nid hive fleet can't.

chaos marines- several hundred thousand?

Nid hive fleet (at full strength, not just the tip of a tendril) - millions of nids


I'd say they have a chance. maybe not a good one, but they have a chance..

I'd also point out that the CSM DID force the war in the HH all the way back to Terra, to the gates of the Imperial Palace itself They only lost because the Emperor wears +20 plot armour ;0)

Ascalam wrote:chaos marines- several hundred thousand?

Nid hive fleet (at full strength, not just the tip of a tendril) - millions of nids


I'd say they have a chance. maybe not a good one, but they have a chance..

I'd also point out that the CSM DID force the war in the HH all the way back to Terra, to the gates of the Imperial Palace itself They only lost because the Emperor wears +20 plot armour ;0)

And have 0+ armor save

And if nids really attack Terra they will only get their asses kicked, looked at what happened to Necrons and they have the most powerful fleet in the galaxy.

'And have 0+ armor save '

The warp-fielded (3+ Inv) big bugs and the cover-saved (venomthrope), feel no pained, constantly respawing (tervigon) hordes beg to differ

The Imperium is tooled up, yes, but eventually the big guns jam from overheating or being jammed with suicide units, and then it's all over but the buffet

This is the pattern in the fluff that Nid invasions seem to follow, and it's usually only some handwaving on the part of the Imperium's fanclub that lets them scrape a win



Um, when did Necrons attack Terra?

They sent a small fleet to Mars, and as far as i'm concerned (from my take on the tiny bit of fluff this is in) succeeded in their mission

It also mentons in the Codex that generally Imperial fleets get their collective asses handed to them by much smaller, weaker necron fleets, and even wins are phyrric victories.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Pg 57- looked it up

Hi, your friendly neighbourhood Necron player here.

5 Light Cruisers made it past the entire Solar Battlefleet, all of the Grey Knights, all of the orbital defences of Mars and made it to the atmosphere. 3 were subsequently destroyed, 2 landed. The two that landed were then vaporised, but as we all know, no matter how you kill a Necron, it will come back. If a Chaos Sorcerer transported a C'Tan to the Warp, a realm that is anathema to the C'Tan, Necrodermis is still powerful enough that it will reform and return (This is taken from a Codex: Necron FAQ, though not the most recent one I believe. 2005, IIRC).

Necrons could do it because their ships have FTL drives and therefore move so fast that they cannot be detected. Tyranid ships are renowned as being the slowest ships in the 40K universe. They're hardy, but they can't take the kind of punishment dealt by what would effectively be the entire Human Race. On the other hand, with the current Adeptus Mechanicus power struggle and schism, things could start getting tricky. And then there's the fact that when they tried to consume Mars, there's an undigestable being with unimaginable power sitting there, and its been a bit cheesed off these last 38000 years. And then AGAIN, I suspect that any Eldar craftworlds in the vicinity would try and help the Imperium, because having a species in debt to you is never a bad thing, even if they are inferior. So it's 2v2, or in terms of codices, 4-6/7 v 1.

Good luck, 'Nids... you'd need it...

Oh, and by the by, there have been two Necron Death-stars sighted by the Imperium in the past (World Engine and the disappearing world from the new GK codex. Yeah, I took a piece of fluff from that travesty, I feel dirty). Picture those beauties opening fire on the Solar System, and think how much they could do. The 'Nids would have a lot to live up to.

Ascalam wrote:I'd also point out that the CSM DID force the war in the HH all the way back to Terra, to the gates of the Imperial Palace itself They only lost because the Emperor wears +20 plot armour ;0)

Then may I also point out the emperor was not convinced of Horuses Heresy until very late and in WD151 IIRC is the final duel between the two. The Emperor doesn't really try to kill Horus until he's seen Sanginus, his retinue and an Imperial Fist Terminator died and having lost his arm and is in danger of bleeding out. He is only truely convinced that Horus means what hes doing after he sees the interior of Horuses ship anyway. Oh and there was 2 Loyalist legiopns fighting 8 Chaos Legions and won, thats pretty god damn good.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Scarey Nerd wrote:
Necrons could do it because their ships have FTL drives .

Finally somebody else that watches SGU, the second seson is really good

Hlaine Larkin mk2 wrote:
Then may I also point out the emperor was not convinced of Horuses Heresy until very late and in WD151 IIRC is the final duel between the two. The Emperor doesn't really try to kill Horus until he's seen Sanginus, his retinue and an Imperial Fist Terminator died and having lost his arm and is in danger of bleeding out. He is only truely convinced that Horus means what hes doing after he sees the interior of Horuses ship anyway. Oh and there was 2 Loyalist legiopns fighting 8 Chaos Legions and won, thats pretty god damn good.

You cannot supress the truth! Who's with me for Ollanus Pius, the patron saint of meatshields?

Hlaine Larkin mk2 wrote:
You cannot supress the truth! Who's with me for Ollanus Pius, the patron saint of meatshields?

Terminator what? You mean the true Guardsmen with balls made out of the same stuff they create power swords with?


It would almost certainly bring about more then just a united front from the imperium. The choas gods would likely interfear as well. Without humans there would be no choas. I would've be surprised that the necrons helped as well. For what taste of souls do nids have compared to the succulent morsels us humans provide for the ctan?

-Loki- wrote:The shadow in the warp blocks the astronomican. The astronimican is required for humans to use warp travel in any reliable way. If they surrounded Terra, the astronomican would be entirely shut down for the rest of the Imperium. No one would be turning up in any significant numbers to do much.

Where does it actually say that the Shadow in the Warp blocks the Astronomicon? I know it prevents messages being sent, but I've never heard of it actually blocking the Astronomicon itself.

Could the Imperial Warp Drives not initiate short dives, like the Tau ones? That could at least enable nearby systems to send support.

Ascalam wrote:Necron remains also go with them, which is why Necron stuff is hard to come by for study ...

Yet some are left for study, and some do get too badly damaged to phase out. As far as I know, we've no idea what weapons were actually used on the Necron ships, so it is possible they were damaged too quickly to phase out again.

chaos marines- several hundred thousand?

Nid hive fleet (at full strength, not just the tip of a tendril) - millions of nids

Hundreds of thousands of Chaos Space Marines, vast numbers of Daemons, traitor elements of the Imperial Army, Dark Mechanicus, Titan Legions, and, of course, the Traitor Primarchs themselves.

Scarey Nerd wrote:Tyranid ships are renowned as being the slowest ships in the 40K universe.

Might not be fastest but is one of the safest, Necrons is fastest and safest. But then its nids.

"The Hive Fleets of the Tyranids do not travel through the warp but instead rely on small Narvhal bio-ships which are capable of harnessing a planetary system's gravity from immense distances away to create a corridor of compressed-space through which Tyranid vessels can travel towards the system at a swift rate. Whilst slower than proper warp travel, this method is infinitely more reliable. On final approach to a system the Narvhal's delicate senses face interference from multiple gravity sources, and so the resort to slower conventional propulsion whilst within the borders of a systemr"


Even slower then Warp travel what is faster then speed of light. I still bet by the time the nids are seen Terra is not making a call for help at all as shadow of warp has blocked all coms. 1,000 ish GKs could come I guess but they are nothing to nids really. Ooooo shiny space marines who like to use the warp lets fry there brains

Nids would have a hard time defeating Terra's defenses(well a whole of the Tyranid race would overwhelm it) because as of the Wolfblade Terra has been so fortified that even the hardliners said that the Terra is overfortified and in addition the whole Solar system is giant fortress.Here's the quote.

He considered their approach. He knew that they had passed countless fortresses and fleets as
they had swung in from the ultra-solar jump points. They had passed the armoured moons of Jupiter
and the forge world of Mars. They had been subjected to hundreds of challenges and scans and they
had been boarded twice. It had been a long drawn out process but it was only to be expected.
The world down there was better protected than any other planet in human history. There would
not be a Second Battle of Earth if the terrible lords of the Imperium could help it. Even now, the sky
was filled with satellite fortresses: great weapon installations with enough firepower to destroy
battle fleets. The whole of sublunar space was crowded with warships. For once in his life, Ragnar
felt insignificant - Wolfblade,pg. 30.

5 Light Cruisers made it past the entire Solar Battlefleet, all of the Grey Knights, all of the orbital defences of Mars and made it to the atmosphere. 3 were subsequently destroyed, 2 landed. The two that landed were then vaporised, but as we all know, no matter how you kill a Necron, it will come back. If a Chaos Sorcerer transported a C'Tan to the Warp, a realm that is anathema to the C'Tan, Necrodermis is still powerful enough that it will reform and return (This is taken from a Codex: Necron FAQ, though not the most recent one I believe. 2005, IIRC)

I would think the Necron's made it onto mars because of their massively more advanced space travel. It is like in the halo novel The fall of reach. The covenant fleets could enter FTL so close together that they were thought to be a solid object when discovered and so were waved off as a threat and considered a large asteroid, UNSC fleets could never dream of doing this..... everyone would be killed . Im not saying this is what happened with mars, but when Necrons have that much more advanced travel methods they could probably land a fleet in the Imperial palace if they really wanted to. SO they probably just appeared right behind the defenses on mars.

While the Tyranids mode of transportation is crazily more safe than warp travel, you can observe their movements as if they are walking right in front of you. Warp travel is more like seeing a person in front of you turning off the lights for a moment then turning them back on to see where they have popped up. One can be actively observed but the other must be observed by patterns of appearance (connect the dot's). SO it is my belief that the Imperium would see the nids coming, unless there were some large diversion to keep them from being on guard.

B455L1N3 wrote:

Scarey Nerd wrote:Tyranid ships are renowned as being the slowest ships in the 40K universe.

Might not be fastest but is one of the safest, Necrons is fastest and safest. But then its nids.

"The Hive Fleets of the Tyranids do not travel through the warp but instead rely on small Narvhal bio-ships which are capable of harnessing a planetary system's gravity from immense distances away to create a corridor of compressed-space through which Tyranid vessels can travel towards the system at a swift rate. Whilst slower than proper warp travel, this method is infinitely more reliable. On final approach to a system the Narvhal's delicate senses face interference from multiple gravity sources, and so the resort to slower conventional propulsion whilst within the borders of a systemr"


Even slower then Warp travel what is faster then speed of light. I still bet by the time the nids are seen Terra is not making a call for help at all as shadow of warp has blocked all coms. 1,000 ish GKs could come I guess but they are nothing to nids really. Ooooo shiny space marines who like to use the warp lets fry there brains

Dude its also home to the Imperial Fists and a ton of others. You forget its Terra. The entire system is one giant fortress. Terra is so well defended it makes macragge look like a open gate to a destroyed castle!

Ultramar does not have the greatest defenses, hell its not even in the top 3 most well defended. In order Terra, The Fang, Cadia, Drancoris, Caliban, Ultramar.

There is enough firepower to destroy entire battlefleets within seconds. Not only that but there are thousands of warships just around jupiter.


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xXSir MontyXx wrote:
I would think the Necron's made it onto mars because of their massively more advanced space travel. It is like in the halo novel The fall of reach. The covenant fleets could enter FTL so close together that they were thought to be a solid object when discovered and so were waved off as a threat and considered a large asteroid, UNSC fleets could never dream of doing this..... everyone would be killed . Im not saying this is what happened with mars, but when Necrons have that much more advanced travel methods they could probably land a fleet in the Imperial palace if they really wanted to. SO they probably just appeared right behind the defenses on mars.

While the Tyranids mode of transportation is crazily more safe than warp travel, you can observe their movements as if they are walking right in front of you. Warp travel is more like seeing a person in front of you turning off the lights for a moment then turning them back on to see where they have popped up. One can be actively observed but the other must be observed by patterns of appearance (connect the dot's). SO it is my belief that the Imperium would see the nids coming, unless there were some large diversion to keep them from being on guard.

Well let us not forget that it was on mars, the entire necron fleet was then obliterated after landing.
Then also remember the nids are so obvious to see the imperium would know when they would come. Because every system around terra is controlled by the imperium and those are fortresses to protect an already overprotected fortress.

Asherian Command wrote:

Ultramar does not have the greatest defenses, hell its not even in the top 3 most well defended. In order Terra, The Fang, Cadia, Drancoris, Caliban, Ultramar.

Minor nitpick,Caliban was destroyed and every source agrees on that except for the Imperial Armor 5(considering that the book was written by FW which is known for major background mistakes that is usual of them).

IvanTih wrote:

Asherian Command wrote:

Ultramar does not have the greatest defenses, hell its not even in the top 3 most well defended. In order Terra, The Fang, Cadia, Drancoris, Caliban, Ultramar.

Minor nitpick,Caliban was destroyed and every source agrees on that except for the Imperial Armor 5(considering that the book was written by FW which is known for major background mistakes that is usual of them).

Caliban is a flying rock that is the fortress monestary of the Dark Angels, thats why I say it is one of the top most well defended because it is insanely hard to find it.

Asherian Command wrote:

IvanTih wrote:

Asherian Command wrote:

Ultramar does not have the greatest defenses, hell its not even in the top 3 most well defended. In order Terra, The Fang, Cadia, Drancoris, Caliban, Ultramar.

Minor nitpick,Caliban was destroyed and every source agrees on that except for the Imperial Armor 5(considering that the book was written by FW which is known for major background mistakes that is usual of them).

Caliban is a flying rock that is the fortress monestary of the Dark Angels, thats why I say it is one of the top most well defended because it is insanely hard to find it.

So it's like at the begining of the war in the pacific at WW2 than actually attacking a fortress, It's just a rock flying through space with effectively minimal defences....

The Rock is all that's left of Caliban bar some rubble..

xXSir MontyXx wrote:I definitely never counted them out. I just know for a fact that every armed Imperial soldier would come to sol if it meant saving the Emperor from being nom'ed.

And how would they get there? Shadow in the Warp would blot out the Astronomicon. Imperials couldn't travel reliably.

Mattlov wrote:

xXSir MontyXx wrote:I definitely never counted them out. I just know for a fact that every armed Imperial soldier would come to sol if it meant saving the Emperor from being nom'ed.

And how would they get there? Shadow in the Warp would blot out the Astronomicon. Imperials couldn't travel reliably.

Astronomican is only vital for long-distance jumps, forces from every nearby world would still be able to get there. Segmentum Solar has an enormous level of colonization so I imagine there are quite a few major systems around Terra.

And with that "strongest defenses" list, I'd put Mars at #2 easily. It may even be tied with Terra considering it's also the Segmentum Fortress in addition to being the most vital Forge World, capital Mechanicus and home to the most powerful Titan Legions, HQ for the Imperial Fleet, and so on.

Mattlov wrote:
And how would they get there? Shadow in the Warp would blot out the Astronomicon. Imperials couldn't travel reliably.

That assumes that the Tyranids would surround Terra before the Imperials could realise. Which is unlikely.

Harriticus wrote:

Mattlov wrote:

xXSir MontyXx wrote:I definitely never counted them out. I just know for a fact that every armed Imperial soldier would come to sol if it meant saving the Emperor from being nom'ed.

And how would they get there? Shadow in the Warp would blot out the Astronomicon. Imperials couldn't travel reliably.

Astronomican is only vital for long-distance jumps, forces from every nearby world would still be able to get there. Segmentum Solar has an enormous level of colonization so I imagine there are quite a few major systems around Terra.

And with that "strongest defenses" list, I'd put Mars at #2 easily. It may even be tied with Terra considering it's also the Segmentum Fortress in addition to being the most vital Forge World, capital Mechanicus and home to the most powerful Titan Legions, HQ for the Imperial Fleet, and so on.

Mars is in the Terran system....... So its not #2 its already #1.
Cadia is a system....
Same with the spacewolves fortress monestary which is a system.

Though I believe that atleast one genestealer is already making its way through the ranks on terra if not more. So eventually it will get close enough to take out the astronomicon and and cripple the Imperium.

Just a bit of fanboy'ism

xXSir MontyXx wrote:Though I believe that atleast one genestealer is already making its way through the ranks on terra if not more. So eventually it will get close enough to take out the astronomicon and and cripple the Imperium.

Just a bit of fanboy'ism

Yeah Just a bit. Its also far fetched.

SomeRandomEvilGuy wrote:

Ascalam wrote:Necron remains also go with them, which is why Necron stuff is hard to come by for study ...

Yet some are left for study, and some do get too badly damaged to phase out. As far as I know, we've no idea what weapons were actually used on the Necron ships, so it is possible they were damaged too quickly to phase out again.

Sorry, where have you heard that Necrons are left for study? As far as I've ever seen, apart from in some fanfiction, there's never been a necron left after a battle except in Xenology, but that Necron wasn't captured, it was waiting. I'd appreciate a source on this

Asherian Command wrote:

xXSir MontyXx wrote:Though I believe that atleast one genestealer is already making its way through the ranks on terra if not more. So eventually it will get close enough to take out the astronomicon and and cripple the Imperium.

Just a bit of fanboy'ism

Yeah Just a bit. Its also far fetched.

No offense or argument intended but what would make it far fetched? (purely curiosity) obviously Terran security is FAR FAR more strict than other planets that genestealers have done this but any specific examples?

SomeRandomEvilGuy wrote:Where does it actually say that the Shadow in the Warp blocks the Astronomicon? I know it prevents messages being sent, but I've never heard of it actually blocking the Astronomicon itself.

In the BRB. I don't have it with me at work, but it's in the Tyranid fluff section. The section that also mentions about a dozen galaxies left lifeless because of the Tyranids.

The Imperiums going to need more luck than the Nids.

Lets all think about this for one sec...

What is the main goal of Games Workshop?
To sell their miniatures and make a ton of money...

Now lets look at the different possibilities that may occur

1 the tyranids dominate...
The IoM goes down in flames because of the loss of the astronomican and GW can
no longer sell space marines, imperial guard, grey knights, blood angels, space wolves, dark angels, or sisters of battle not to mention
and battle fleet Gothic or epic miniatures all told 7-8 codecies worth of product. I think we can all agree that this is highly unlikely.

2 the IoM dominates...
well this kinda blows for all tyranid players, although nids aren't doomed like the IoM GW will prolly lose some sales for nids anyway
or at least will have less people starting a nid army. Because of loss in sales also highly unlikely.

3 the nids win barley...
preatty much the same as number one...

4 the IoM wins barley...
GW gets to use lots of lines like; "Though at great cost the imperial fists managed to beat back the innumerable waves of carnifexes."
and "standing back to back the last of the custodoes would not give and inch as they piled the bodies of the slain before them"...

In this case they lose the least sales and get to write a bunch of ridiculous fluff...

And in case you argue this is not what the fluff suggests would happen I'd like to point out that GW is the fluff so if nids actually ever made
it to terra i am betting a million to one this is what happens.

It's pretty obvious that the fluff is never going to advance, due to the potential to remove entire miniature ranges from the fluff. Doesn't mean discussing it isn't occasionally entertaining.

Humbaba wrote:
The IoM goes down in flames because of the loss of the astronomican and GW can
no longer sell space marines, imperial guard, grey knights, blood angels, space wolves, dark angels, or sisters of battle not to mention
and battle fleet Gothic or epic miniatures all told 7-8 codecies worth of product. I think we can all agree that this is highly unlikely.

Scarey Nerd wrote:
Sorry, where have you heard that Necrons are left for study? As far as I've ever seen, apart from in some fanfiction, there's never been a necron left after a battle except in Xenology, but that Necron wasn't captured, it was waiting. I'd appreciate a source on this

Just various people saying it occurs in stories and the like. Haven't actually see it myself. One example was that a Necron got hit my a melta weapon and didn't have much left of it.

xXSir MontyXx wrote:No offense or argument intended but what would make it far fetched? (purely curiosity) obviously Terran security is FAR FAR more strict than other planets that genestealers have done this but any specific examples?

I would say that the idea of a Genestealer making it into the Throne Room and not instantly being butchered by Custodes is ridiculous, but if the Inquisition War series is anything to go by it may conceivably happen (I'm not sure of the actual circumstances, but Draco getting an audience with the Emperor without the permission of the Custodes seems insane to me (admittedly, that's just what I assume happened since I haven't actually read the book, but that's the impression I get)).

-Loki- wrote:In the BRB. I don't have it with me at work, but it's in the Tyranid fluff section. The section that also mentions about a dozen galaxies left lifeless because of the Tyranids.

So they've finally ruined the mystery of the Tyranid invasion? How disappointing. Still, a dozen galaxies means the time lapse between each wave will be astronomical. The Imperium should have plenty of time to prepare.

Humbaba wrote:To sell their miniatures and make a ton of money...

You know, it can actually be quite fun and interesting to theorise what could happen background-wise, rather than just what's likely to happen.

Scarey Nerd wrote:when they tried to consume Mars, there's an undigestable being with unimaginable power sitting there

The souls contained in infinity circuits are 'indigestible'. The Doom of Mars could probably bombard Terra without even getting off planet

The souls are very digestible. Ask Slaanesh..

Which is why they are kept in an infinity circuit/soul stones in the first place. They can be taken out of the can too

SomeRandomEvilGuy wrote:So they've finally ruined the mystery of the Tyranid invasion? How disappointing. Still, a dozen galaxies means the time lapse between each wave will be astronomical. The Imperium should have plenty of time to prepare.

What mystery did they ruin, exactly? They've always been described as an extra-galactic threat. The mystery was their origins, which is still there.

Also, your statement assumes that each galaxy was consumed by separate fleets. If it was one big fleet, which is more likely, there would be no time lapse between waves. And if there is a time lapse, it would be in the billions of years. Humanity would be gone in that amount of time (Tyanids would have been most of the way to this galaxy even when the War in Heaven happened), and the Tyranids wouldn't need to bother with trying to fight them away from the resources they want.


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Ascalam wrote:The souls are very digestible. Ask Slaanesh..

Which is why they are kept in an infinity circuit/soul stones in the first place. They can be taken out of the can too

The Doom of Malan'tai is quite fond of eating souls. It's what it does. It destroyed Malan'tai by sitting in the infinity circuit, munching on souls, while gaining UNLIMITED POWAH.

A few things:
1)the creature the Nids use to travel FTL (cant remember the name) causes huge gravometric, tectonic and electrical disruptions on the planet/planets that they 'target', this even without anything else, would give a HUGE warning to the IoM.
2)As stated earlier, the Nids prefer to travel slower when in-system. In Courage and Honour (I think, one of the Ultrasmurf books anyway) the Hive Fleet takes months to move from the outer edges of the system to Tarsis Ultra, and while this is happening, astropoaths are still able to send some sort of communication through the Warp (well the ones who havent scratched out their own eyes just before their heads explode enyway )
3) someone mentioned much earlier in the thread that the Hive mind is 'curious', im sorry but that is BS. Cant remember the reference, but Tigurius managed to gain insight into the HIve mind and he describes it as something along the lines of 'a soulles hunger, devoid of any other emotion' (feel free to correct me on the actual quote)
4)The Necron fleet that made it to Mars...was pretty much the first time anyone in the IoM had ever even seen a Necron ship, let alone see what their weapons could do/how durable their armour was/maneuvaribility of their ships etc. considering all that is known about that now, are you really suprised a lightining raid (that bypassed the majority of the defences IIRC) by the most powerful ships in the 40k universe (compared to their tonnage) managed to make it through?

there were a couple of others but its 3am here so i cant remember them, and apologies for any typos.

Revenent Reiko wrote:1)the creature the Nids use to travel FTL (cant remember the name) causes huge gravometric, tectonic and electrical disruptions on the planet/planets that they 'target', this even without anything else, would give a HUGE warning to the IoM.

The Narvhal was one of the dumbest changes they made in 5th edition. I preferred it when Tyranids just always moved at sublight speed. Reinforced the slow but unstoppable consuming of a system. Like a slow sledgehammer.

Revenent Reiko wrote:2)As stated earlier, the Nids prefer to travel slower when in-system. In Courage and Honour (I think, one of the Ultrasmurf books anyway) the Hive Fleet takes months to move from the outer edges of the system to Tarsis Ultra, and while this is happening, astropoaths are still able to send some sort of communication through the Warp (well the ones who havent scratched out their own eyes just before their heads explode enyway )

Black library books are pretty questionable as fluff references. Authors tend to 'forget' specifics if it helps their narrative. Even Dan Abnett does. Fluff for the Shadow in the Warp says all but the most powerful astropaths go insane or die when it approaches, and even the powerful astropaths are spending all their abilities trying to not go insane.

Revenent Reiko wrote:3) someone mentioned much earlier in the thread that the Hive mind is 'curious', im sorry but that is BS. Cant remember the reference, but Tigurius managed to gain insight into the HIve mind and he describes it as something along the lines of 'a soulles hunger, devoid of any other emotion' (feel free to correct me on the actual quote)

True, but also don't forget that he's a human tryign to understand an utterly alien intellect, something never before encountered. It's not a stretch that Tigerius, while he touched and saw the Hive Mind itself, he simply does not understand it.

Yeah the Narvhal (ty for the name) is a ridiculous addition, theres even some fluff somewhere when an IoM fleet just killed all of them in a Hive fleet so it had no chance of getting to any other system ( )

with you on the questionable reference, Im guessing thats fluff from the Nid codex about SitW?I just dont see how they can block out the Astronomicon...although if Terra were besieged (unlikely as that may be) we would quickly run out of psykers to power it.

While i agree with you about the unknowable alien mind....i just cant see the Hive Mind being 'curious'. And even though Tigurius may not be able to feel its more complicated emotions, hunger is easy, and if thats all he felt it kinda seems there isnt going to be that much else if that makes sense?

I wasn't really defending the whole hive mind being curious, just saying, just because Tigerius is a powerful psyker, he might not be the kind of psyker who would understand an alien mind, and the hive mind is the most alien of all.

Sorry that some of you took my comments to seriously, they were meant as a joke. I too like to discuss what could happen, and I love the fluff.

-Loki- wrote:I wasn't really defending the whole hive mind being curious, just saying, just because Tigerius is a powerful psyker, he might not be the kind of psyker who would understand an alien mind, and the hive mind is the most alien of all.

o no i totally understand where you are coming from (and agree with you), apologies if i came across confrontational, it was really late and my politeness takes a noticeable dip when im tired



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Humbaba wrote:Sorry that some of you took my comments to seriously, they were meant as a joke. I too like to discuss what could happen, and I love the fluff.

my bullets-points werent meant to mirror yours Humbaba sorry, they were just general points i was making from the thread.
actually your first point is very valid, GW is a company and wont ever give us an answer to this (unless the entire franchise goes completely under, in which case we might get some hastily written, poorly thought out answers)

-Loki- wrote:

Ascalam wrote:The souls are very digestible. Ask Slaanesh..

Which is why they are kept in an infinity circuit/soul stones in the first place. They can be taken out of the can too

The Doom of Malan'tai is quite fond of eating souls. It's what it does. It destroyed Malan'tai by sitting in the infinity circuit, munching on souls, while gaining UNLIMITED POWAH.

Can I make a blatant plug for my Doom of Malan'tai unleashed for Apocalypse thread at this juncture?

-Loki- wrote:
What mystery did they ruin, exactly? They've always been described as an extra-galactic threat. The mystery was their origins, which is still there.

The mystery as to why they were coming. The whole idea of whether or not they were fleeing, were coming after having devoured their galaxy, simply trying to find over sources of food after stalemating in their own galaxy. Simply saying 'they consumed over a dozen galaxies' reduces the interest I find in them. Especially since they're like to lose.

Also, your statement assumes that each galaxy was consumed by separate fleets. If it was one big fleet, which is more likely, there would be no time lapse between waves. And if there is a time lapse, it would be in the billions of years. Humanity would be gone in that amount of time (Tyanids would have been most of the way to this galaxy even when the War in Heaven happened), and the Tyranids wouldn't need to bother with trying to fight them away from the resources they want.

They've been coming from different directions, but yeah that was just an assumption. Maybe.

Darth Bob wrote:

xXSir MontyXx wrote:I just know for a fact that every armed Imperial soldier would come to sol if it meant saving the Emperor from being nom'ed.

According to Kryptman, that might not be enough.

Kryptman is probably over egging the pudding to increase next years budget!

SomeRandomEvilGuy wrote:The mystery as to why they were coming. The whole idea of whether or not they were fleeing, were coming after having devoured their galaxy, simply trying to find over sources of food after stalemating in their own galaxy. Simply saying 'they consumed over a dozen galaxies' reduces the interest I find in them. Especially since they're like to lose.

Except none of that has been revealed. They flatly state there's about a dozen galaxies that they've destroyed. How does that in any way tell you they're running from something, or that they were a biological weapon that got out of hand, or were a colony of mutant ants that got too big for their boots, or that they're an intergalactic cleaning mechanism, or whatever other theory people have about them? None of that has been ruined simply by stating how many galaxies they overran before the Milky Way.

SomeRandomEvilGuy wrote:They've been coming from different directions, but yeah that was just an assumption. Maybe.

The hive mind is said to be intelligent. If they have a significant force comeing from the void, and two thrusts into the eastern fringe got beaten back, it's easy to assume they figure a different route of attack would be better. Just go around and attack from somewhere else. They don't have to be moving in straight lines.

I think th nids will get destroyed, the hive fleets will get destroyed

About an earlier point of the C'tan Void Dragon "killing off" the Tyranids, yeah, there's a problem, rumor has it in the fluff that another C'tan god (The Outsider) controls the Tyranids, and are in fact helping the Necrons (Even though the Necrons at one point wiped out a small part of the Nids of Hive Fleet Gorgon) and it seems very possible that, with the help of the Necrons, the Nids and Necrons could very well destroy the Imperium (Keep in mind, the rumor was not confirmed yet, from my understanding, and there has been no Tyranid-Necron cooperation that I've seen in the Nid Codex, and so the rumor is just that- a rumor). Though it could just so happen that the Outsider and the other C'tan gods are not on good terms, or maybe the Deceiver wants him out of the picture (Likely because of his (Or perhaps the Eldar Laughing God's) role in the C'tan devouring each other and his aspiration the rule the C'tan by himself), so the other C'tan may know of the Outsider's role in the Tyranid invasion, and wanted him dead, or just hated his use of living subjects instead of souls trapped in metal.

Now, the Tyranids know exactly how to get to Terra, that is, if the Astronomicon is there, because they were attracted to our galaxy by either the Astronomicon (Likely) or they were (Gulp) on the run from something and happened upon our galaxy as a safe haven full of biomass, or that, but without the running.

AwesomeFex wrote:About an earlier point of the C'tan Void Dragon "killing off" the Tyranids, yeah, there's a problem, rumor has it in the fluff that another C'tan god (The Outsider) controls the Tyranids, and are in fact helping the Necrons (Even though the Necrons at one point wiped out a small part of the Nids of Hive Fleet Gorgon) and it seems very possible that, with the help of the Necrons, the Nids and Necrons could very well destroy the Imperium (Keep in mind, the rumor was not confirmed yet, from my understanding, and there has been no Tyranid-Necron cooperation that I've seen in the Nid Codex, and so the rumor is just that- a rumor).

Highly doubt it. Because The Outsider hates all other C'Tan and hates his servants.

Asherian Command wrote:

AwesomeFex wrote:About an earlier point of the C'tan Void Dragon "killing off" the Tyranids, yeah, there's a problem, rumor has it in the fluff that another C'tan god (The Outsider) controls the Tyranids, and are in fact helping the Necrons (Even though the Necrons at one point wiped out a small part of the Nids of Hive Fleet Gorgon) and it seems very possible that, with the help of the Necrons, the Nids and Necrons could very well destroy the Imperium (Keep in mind, the rumor was not confirmed yet, from my understanding, and there has been no Tyranid-Necron cooperation that I've seen in the Nid Codex, and so the rumor is just that- a rumor).

Highly doubt it. Because The Outsider hates all other C'Tan and hates his servants.

Ah, so then the latter part of the quote (Just added) may prove of some accuracy, no?

There's an easy way to disprove the 'The Outsider is the hive Mind' theory.

The hive mind is a psychic entity in the warp. The Outsider is a C'tan. The C'tan don't understand the warp at all. The C'tan are also not psychic, in fact, they are quite vulnerable to psykers. There's also hints in codex Necrons that they cannot survive in the warp.

The Outsider isn't the hive mind.

-Loki- wrote:There's an easy way to disprove the 'The Outsider is the hive Mind' theory.

The hive mind is a psychic entity in the warp. The Outsider is a C'tan. The C'tan don't understand the warp at all. The C'tan are also not psychic, in fact, they are quite vulnerable to psykers. There's also hints in codex Necrons that they cannot survive in the warp.

The Outsider isn't the hive mind.

D'oh! Foiled again! But, great show of fluff knowledge, my friend, I'm not really a Necron guy anyway, so I don't know much of their fluff, only some Nid fluff. I do have a friend that is into Necrons, I don't know if he has joined, I told him about Dakka, haven't seen him around yet.

Presenting, a piece of evidence to support the idea that Tyranids would not go anywhere near Terra due to there being a C'tan on Mars...

The star map in the 3rd/4th edition tyranid codex.

Note that one of the major hive fleets is very, very careful to totally avoid going anywhere near an "anomaly" that is directly smack in the centre of it's invasion path... the fleet splits in 2 to avoid it then rejoins once it's passed.

The anomaly of course, is a blurry pic that llooks exactly like some sort of artificial necron world.

So, this is an example of a full-strength major hive fleet not just being completely unwilling to fight even a single necron-constructed world, but also being unwilling to get anywhere near it.

The hive mind clearly knew exactly what it was, and went to great lengths to avoid it at all costs. I've always seen that part of the codex as evidence that Necrons are the only thing in existence that the hive mind is afraid of.

Except that the 5th edition code specifically says that the Tyranids are being drawn to Terra by the astronomican. Whether there's a C'tan there or not, there's a big light saying 'SOMETHING IS HERE'. While it's not the focus of every hive fleet, there's two on their way, Scylla and Charybdis.

scarletsquig wrote:Presenting, a piece of evidence to support the idea that Tyranids would not go anywhere near Terra due to there being a C'tan on Mars...

The star map in the 3rd/4th edition tyranid codex.

Note that one of the major hive fleets is very, very careful to totally avoid going anywhere near an "anomaly" that is directly smack in the centre of it's invasion path... the fleet splits in 2 to avoid it then rejoins once it's passed.

The anomaly of course, is a blurry pic that llooks exactly like some sort of artificial necron world.

So, this is an example of a full-strength major hive fleet not just being completely unwilling to fight even a single necron-constructed world, but also being unwilling to get anywhere near it.

The hive mind clearly knew exactly what it was, and went to great lengths to avoid it at all costs. I've always seen that part of the codex as evidence that Necrons are the only thing in existence that the hive mind is afraid of.

That's no moon... It's a space station...

I'm about 99% certain that that anomaly is the Dyson Sphere within which the Outsider is imprisoned. A scrap of writing elsewhere in the codex details it and says that either it is about 32,000,000 times the size of Terra, or it has an infinite albedo range. What an albedo range is, I haven't the foggiest, but. This means that Hivefleet Leviathan is moving around The Outsider, so he couldn't have created them. IMO.

3) someone mentioned much earlier in the thread that the Hive mind is 'curious', im sorry but that is BS. Cant remember the reference, but Tigurius managed to gain insight into the HIve mind and he describes it as something along the lines of 'a soulles hunger, devoid of any other emotion' (feel free to correct me on the actual quote)

That'd be me. To adapt you must experiment, the hive-mind is a collective consciousness of all tyranid creatures. It has created many "special" types of 'nids to deal with certain situation's like; the parasite of morton, old one eye, the red terror, doom of malon tai, swarmlord. I would say that most of the tyranid attributes the Imperium faces today have been "special" at some point. Maybe, some experiment to see if it is effective at defeating its food.

To say that it only has the feeling of hunger is very naive, that is like saying a lion is not curious at times. If it sees a new creature it might stick its nose in and mess around with it and maybe take a nibble to see if it is edible. The lion would not go in with all its got and maybe get itself hurt maybe even killed. if it is edible and doest hurt the lion to much then it will go ahead and have at it. If the prey is to dangerous, it will move on. So I would say that this galaxy is in the nibbling stage as of now, Tyranids are sending in advanced fleets to see what we do. Poking and prodding to feel for our weaknesses. These special tyranids adapt for the good for the rest of the race so it is better prepared for when it arrives.

The Tyranids probably also know if it is a mineral they can use. If its not, there's no point wasting biomass attacking it, so they ignore it.

xXSir MontyXx wrote:

3) someone mentioned much earlier in the thread that the Hive mind is 'curious', im sorry but that is BS. Cant remember the reference, but Tigurius managed to gain insight into the HIve mind and he describes it as something along the lines of 'a soulles hunger, devoid of any other emotion' (feel free to correct me on the actual quote)

That'd be me. To adapt you must experiment, the hive-mind is a collective consciousness of all tyranid creatures. It has created many "special" types of 'nids to deal with certain situation's like; the parasite of morton, old one eye, the red terror, doom of malon tai, swarmlord. I would say that most of the tyranid attributes the Imperium faces today have been "special" at some point. Maybe, some experiment to see if it is effective at defeating its food.

To say that it only has the feeling of hunger is very naive, that is like saying a lion is not curious at times. If it sees a new creature it might stick its nose in and mess around with it and maybe take a nibble to see if it is edible. The lion would not go in with all its got and maybe get itself hurt maybe even killed. if it is edible and doest hurt the lion to much then it will go ahead and have at it. If the prey is to dangerous, it will move on. So I would say that this galaxy is in the nibbling stage as of now, Tyranids are sending in advanced fleets to see what we do. Poking and prodding to feel for our weaknesses. These special tyranids adapt for the good for the rest of the race so it is better prepared for when it arrives.

ok i understand what you are saying about the lion.However, the Hive Mind does not 'experiment', each new or special creature is a designed evolutionary change brought about by an alien intelligence unlike any other. Yes it is so that these creatures have all been 'created' specially for a given task/planet/for use against specific species. This is not experimentation, and is not driven by curiosity, it is hunger pure and simple. The reason a lion will probe and test to see if it can get a meal is because it is unable to force an evolutionary change and must therefore work with what it has. This is not to say however that the proces by which a special creature or strain does not come about through 'experimentation', ie trying something and if that doesnt work then add something new (for example adding fat reserves when in a cold climate), but it is not out of curiosity that this comes about.

And how can i be naive when im quoting (kind of, i dont know the exact quote) from official fluff

I do agree with your idea of what the Hive Mind is doing though, it is testing our defences, but this is not because it is curious, its because the Great Devourer is hungry

Codex Imperialis suggests that some viruses on Earth and other worlds could have been early Tyranid organisms, and they're all part of something much bigger.

SO MAYBE THEY'RE THERE ALREADY!!!

Daba wrote:Codex Imperialis suggests that some viruses on Earth and other worlds could have been early Tyranid organisms, and they're all part of something much bigger.

SO MAYBE THEY'RE THERE ALREADY!!!

Daba wrote:Codex Imperialis suggests that some viruses on Earth and other worlds could have been early Tyranid organisms, and they're all part of something much bigger.

SO MAYBE THEY'RE THERE ALREADY!!!

What, like the Fenrisian Kraken?

and the Catachan devil.

Probably a few others in the fluff here and there..

To those that complain about the Narvhal addition, think about space:

Proxima Centauri, the closest star to earth (not inc. the Sun) is 4.24 light years away, thats 2.49248392 × 10^13 miles.

'nids come from outside the milky way, the nearest galaxy to the milky way (not necessarily the one 'nids come from) is the Sagittarius Dwarf Elliptical Galaxy (btw, I am not including the Canis Major Dwarf Galaxy, as this is 'technically' becoming part of the milky way), which is 75,000 light years away, or 4.40887486 × 10^17 miles.

What is in the space between these galaxies? not much at all, maybe some minute, insignificant, microscopic concentrations of the important elements, but mostly just an empty vacuum.

The nids, being organic, will eventually die from natural causes, and since I doubt they can recycle their dead 100% perfectly down to the last atom and molecule, they will have long since snuffed it before they even reach the halfway point. And besides the point, if we assume nids have never had warp travel, without it iit would take them so long to get here (even assuming that they left well in advance so they wouldn't be late) that by the time they reached our galaxy, human civilization would be long, long dead, as would probably the tau & eldar & orks, in fact, most of the life in the milky way would be long long dead before they showed up.

They need warp travel, otherwise by the time they get here the restaurant would be closed

Also, @lindsey40k, that was the funniest thing I've seen all day

Leigen_Zero wrote:To those that complain about the Narvhal addition, think about space:

Proxima Centauri, the closest star to earth (not inc. the Sun) is 4.24 light years away, thats 2.49248392 × 10^13 miles.

'nids come from outside the milky way, the nearest galaxy to the milky way (not necessarily the one 'nids come from) is the Sagittarius Dwarf Elliptical Galaxy (btw, I am not including the Canis Major Dwarf Galaxy, as this is 'technically' becoming part of the milky way), which is 75,000 light years away, or 4.40887486 × 10^17 miles.

What is in the space between these galaxies? not much at all, maybe some minute, insignificant, microscopic concentrations of the important elements, but mostly just an empty vacuum.

The nids, being organic, will eventually die from natural causes, and since I doubt they can recycle their dead 100% perfectly down to the last atom and molecule, they will have long since snuffed it before they even reach the halfway point. And besides the point, if we assume nids have never had warp travel, without it iit would take them so long to get here (even assuming that they left well in advance so they wouldn't be late) that by the time they reached our galaxy, human civilization would be long, long dead, as would probably the tau & eldar & orks, in fact, most of the life in the milky way would be long long dead before they showed up.

They need warp travel, otherwise by the time they get here the restaurant would be closed

Also, @lindsey40k, that was the funniest thing I've seen all day

I once read a novel where an alien species used the same thing as Tyranids to get around, but explained much better. Essentially, gravity is everywhere, with the universe pulling us in every direction equally. When you go near a planet, that gravity pulls you slightly more in that direction. Using an element called cavorite, they were able to nuetralise gravity behind them, meaning the entire universe is pulling them in one direction. They further excellerated themselves by slingshotting around black holes, using the cavorite to shield them from the gravity. they were able to excelerate to many times the speed of light.

SomeRandomEvilGuy wrote:
I would say that the idea of a Genestealer making it into the Throne Room and not instantly being butchered by Custodes is ridiculous, but if the Inquisition War series is anything to go by it may conceivably happen (I'm not sure of the actual circumstances, but Draco getting an audience with the Emperor without the permission of the Custodes seems insane to me (admittedly, that's just what I assume happened since I haven't actually read the book, but that's the impression I get)).

And, using the very same book as reference, the Emperor can halt the flow of time for everyone except himself and Draco, meaning that said genestealer would be pretty much the most dead genestealer ever anyway...

Revenent Reiko wrote:

xXSir MontyXx wrote:

3) someone mentioned much earlier in the thread that the Hive mind is 'curious', im sorry but that is BS. Cant remember the reference, but Tigurius managed to gain insight into the HIve mind and he describes it as something along the lines of 'a soulles hunger, devoid of any other emotion' (feel free to correct me on the actual quote)

That'd be me. To adapt you must experiment, the hive-mind is a collective consciousness of all tyranid creatures. It has created many "special" types of 'nids to deal with certain situation's like; the parasite of morton, old one eye, the red terror, doom of malon tai, swarmlord. I would say that most of the tyranid attributes the Imperium faces today have been "special" at some point. Maybe, some experiment to see if it is effective at defeating its food.

To say that it only has the feeling of hunger is very naive, that is like saying a lion is not curious at times. If it sees a new creature it might stick its nose in and mess around with it and maybe take a nibble to see if it is edible. The lion would not go in with all its got and maybe get itself hurt maybe even killed. if it is edible and doest hurt the lion to much then it will go ahead and have at it. If the prey is to dangerous, it will move on. So I would say that this galaxy is in the nibbling stage as of now, Tyranids are sending in advanced fleets to see what we do. Poking and prodding to feel for our weaknesses. These special tyranids adapt for the good for the rest of the race so it is better prepared for when it arrives.

ok i understand what you are saying about the lion.However, the Hive Mind does not 'experiment', each new or special creature is a designed evolutionary change brought about by an alien intelligence unlike any other. Yes it is so that these creatures have all been 'created' specially for a given task/planet/for use against specific species. This is not experimentation, and is not driven by curiosity, it is hunger pure and simple. The reason a lion will probe and test to see if it can get a meal is because it is unable to force an evolutionary change and must therefore work with what it has. This is not to say however that the proces by which a special creature or strain does not come about through 'experimentation', ie trying something and if that doesnt work then add something new (for example adding fat reserves when in a cold climate), but it is not out of curiosity that this comes about.

And how can i be naive when im quoting (kind of, i dont know the exact quote) from official fluff

I do agree with your idea of what the Hive Mind is doing though, it is testing our defences, but this is not because it is curious, its because the Great Devourer is hungry

These attributes are only in one Tyranid at the time though. Only if they work are the implemented in the rest of that type of tyranid. That sounds like experimentation. If it was regular Tyranid evolution, every tyranid would get it around the same time. Also, it would be on the same scale. Has any other carnifex with regeneration other than old one eye survived exterminatus?

Also, getting a BRIEF glimpse at the hivemind isn't enough, unless im mistaken on the length of this encounter? Did it say how long is was? It killed all but 2 psykers I believe? So how would he be able to understand everything about it in a couple of seconds while probably dealing with a hangover feeling like a combination of every hangover every human has ever had .
Yes it makes since he saw hunger because that IS the main driving force of the Tyranid race. I just don't believe he had the time to delve deeper into its consciousness to really know whats going on.

'the Emperor can halt the flow of time for everyone except himself and Draco'

AAAAAnnnnd the Big E gets even more Mary Sue.. I hadn't thought it possible

What about something that can do the same trick/counter that one.

I'm sure the Hivemind could eventually cook something up

Ascalam wrote:

AAAAAnnnnd the Big E gets even more Mary Sue.. I hadn't thought it possible

How is someone who failed to realize what he was dealing with even though he thought he knew, which resulted in him being put on life support for 10 millennia, a Mary Sue?

xXSir MontyXx wrote:

Revenent Reiko wrote:

xXSir MontyXx wrote:

3) someone mentioned much earlier in the thread that the Hive mind is 'curious', im sorry but that is BS. Cant remember the reference, but Tigurius managed to gain insight into the HIve mind and he describes it as something along the lines of 'a soulles hunger, devoid of any other emotion' (feel free to correct me on the actual quote)

That'd be me. To adapt you must experiment, the hive-mind is a collective consciousness of all tyranid creatures. It has created many "special" types of 'nids to deal with certain situation's like; the parasite of morton, old one eye, the red terror, doom of malon tai, swarmlord. I would say that most of the tyranid attributes the Imperium faces today have been "special" at some point. Maybe, some experiment to see if it is effective at defeating its food.

To say that it only has the feeling of hunger is very naive, that is like saying a lion is not curious at times. If it sees a new creature it might stick its nose in and mess around with it and maybe take a nibble to see if it is edible. The lion would not go in with all its got and maybe get itself hurt maybe even killed. if it is edible and doest hurt the lion to much then it will go ahead and have at it. If the prey is to dangerous, it will move on. So I would say that this galaxy is in the nibbling stage as of now, Tyranids are sending in advanced fleets to see what we do. Poking and prodding to feel for our weaknesses. These special tyranids adapt for the good for the rest of the race so it is better prepared for when it arrives.

ok i understand what you are saying about the lion.However, the Hive Mind does not 'experiment', each new or special creature is a designed evolutionary change brought about by an alien intelligence unlike any other. Yes it is so that these creatures have all been 'created' specially for a given task/planet/for use against specific species. This is not experimentation, and is not driven by curiosity, it is hunger pure and simple. The reason a lion will probe and test to see if it can get a meal is because it is unable to force an evolutionary change and must therefore work with what it has. This is not to say however that the proces by which a special creature or strain does not come about through 'experimentation', ie trying something and if that doesnt work then add something new (for example adding fat reserves when in a cold climate), but it is not out of curiosity that this comes about.

And how can i be naive when im quoting (kind of, i dont know the exact quote) from official fluff

I do agree with your idea of what the Hive Mind is doing though, it is testing our defences, but this is not because it is curious, its because the Great Devourer is hungry

These attributes are only in one Tyranid at the time though. Only if they work are the implemented in the rest of that type of tyranid. That sounds like experimentation. If it was regular Tyranid evolution, every tyranid would get it around the same time. Also, it would be on the same scale. Has any other carnifex with regeneration other than old one eye survived exterminatus?

Also, getting a BRIEF glimpse at the hivemind isn't enough, unless im mistaken on the length of this encounter? Did it say how long is was? It killed all but 2 psykers I believe? So how would he be able to understand everything about it in a couple of seconds while probably dealing with a hangover feeling like a combination of every hangover every human has ever had .
Yes it makes since he saw hunger because that IS the main driving force of the Tyranid race. I just don't believe he had the time to delve deeper into its consciousness to really know whats going on.

again, i see what you mean, but there is mutation in all evolution, it is in fact , how most evolution comes about. A random mutation causes that specimen (creature/plant/whatever) to have a better survival rate or some sort of advantage over the others of its kind and so this mutation is passed down through its decendents. Even though the Nid evolution is forced, anomalies will occur,especially given the volume/amount of creatures being 'grown'/changes taking place.
Isnt there even mention in old one eyes fluff that his remarkable regeneration is a mutation? Also, the special nid creatures are only really a counterpoint to the other races special characters right? even though they have fluff to support them, its all really a sales gimic IMO.
However, im not denying that the special creatures (in a non-RL setting) may be experimentation, and their continuing occurance may be to see how well each creature works in a certain environment. But the majority of Nid creatures produced on that world/moon/space station etc. will be specifically adapted to that environment and not 'special' in that sense.
How od we know there is only ever one of each creature at any one time? isnt it possible to get more than one using the FOC? (might be wrong there, its a genuine question)

I dont think the length of time is mentioned, but considering what the human mind is capable of in a short amount of time (adrenaline rush style RL events/REM sleep) and that a psyker's mind is even more capable/faster, then im not sure how much it would effect things like that. if that makes sense? (Loving the hangover thought btw that made me lol) it really depends on how powerful Tigurius is, or how attuned he is to the feeling of an alien Warp entity im with you that there may be other feelings there, but i just doubt curiosity is one which drives the Hive Mind.
and then, we arent really meant to know what is really going on, because they want to keep it a mystery (why are they here? are they running away? how many of them are there? etc.)

Revenent Reiko wrote:

xXSir MontyXx wrote:

Revenent Reiko wrote:

xXSir MontyXx wrote:

3) someone mentioned much earlier in the thread that the Hive mind is 'curious', im sorry but that is BS. Cant remember the reference, but Tigurius managed to gain insight into the HIve mind and he describes it as something along the lines of 'a soulles hunger, devoid of any other emotion' (feel free to correct me on the actual quote)

That'd be me. To adapt you must experiment, the hive-mind is a collective consciousness of all tyranid creatures. It has created many "special" types of 'nids to deal with certain situation's like; the parasite of morton, old one eye, the red terror, doom of malon tai, swarmlord. I would say that most of the tyranid attributes the Imperium faces today have been "special" at some point. Maybe, some experiment to see if it is effective at defeating its food.

To say that it only has the feeling of hunger is very naive, that is like saying a lion is not curious at times. If it sees a new creature it might stick its nose in and mess around with it and maybe take a nibble to see if it is edible. The lion would not go in with all its got and maybe get itself hurt maybe even killed. if it is edible and doest hurt the lion to much then it will go ahead and have at it. If the prey is to dangerous, it will move on. So I would say that this galaxy is in the nibbling stage as of now, Tyranids are sending in advanced fleets to see what we do. Poking and prodding to feel for our weaknesses. These special tyranids adapt for the good for the rest of the race so it is better prepared for when it arrives.

ok i understand what you are saying about the lion.However, the Hive Mind does not 'experiment', each new or special creature is a designed evolutionary change brought about by an alien intelligence unlike any other. Yes it is so that these creatures have all been 'created' specially for a given task/planet/for use against specific species. This is not experimentation, and is not driven by curiosity, it is hunger pure and simple. The reason a lion will probe and test to see if it can get a meal is because it is unable to force an evolutionary change and must therefore work with what it has. This is not to say however that the proces by which a special creature or strain does not come about through 'experimentation', ie trying something and if that doesnt work then add something new (for example adding fat reserves when in a cold climate), but it is not out of curiosity that this comes about.

And how can i be naive when im quoting (kind of, i dont know the exact quote) from official fluff

I do agree with your idea of what the Hive Mind is doing though, it is testing our defences, but this is not because it is curious, its because the Great Devourer is hungry

These attributes are only in one Tyranid at the time though. Only if they work are the implemented in the rest of that type of tyranid. That sounds like experimentation. If it was regular Tyranid evolution, every tyranid would get it around the same time. Also, it would be on the same scale. Has any other carnifex with regeneration other than old one eye survived exterminatus?

Also, getting a BRIEF glimpse at the hivemind isn't enough, unless im mistaken on the length of this encounter? Did it say how long is was? It killed all but 2 psykers I believe? So how would he be able to understand everything about it in a couple of seconds while probably dealing with a hangover feeling like a combination of every hangover every human has ever had .
Yes it makes since he saw hunger because that IS the main driving force of the Tyranid race. I just don't believe he had the time to delve deeper into its consciousness to really know whats going on.

again, i see what you mean, but there is mutation in all evolution, it is in fact , how most evolution comes about. A random mutation causes that specimen (creature/plant/whatever) to have a better survival rate or some sort of advantage over the others of its kind and so this mutation is passed down through its decendents. Even though the Nid evolution is forced, anomalies will occur,especially given the volume/amount of creatures being 'grown'/changes taking place.
Isnt there even mention in old one eyes fluff that his remarkable regeneration is a mutation? Also, the special nid creatures are only really a counterpoint to the other races special characters right? even though they have fluff to support them, its all really a sales gimic IMO.
However, im not denying that the special creatures (in a non-RL setting) may be experimentation, and their continuing occurance may be to see how well each creature works in a certain environment. But the majority of Nid creatures produced on that world/moon/space station etc. will be specifically adapted to that environment and not 'special' in that sense.
How od we know there is only ever one of each creature at any one time? isnt it possible to get more than one using the FOC? (might be wrong there, its a genuine question)

I dont think the length of time is mentioned, but considering what the human mind is capable of in a short amount of time (adrenaline rush style RL events/REM sleep) and that a psyker's mind is even more capable/faster, then im not sure how much it would effect things like that. if that makes sense? (Loving the hangover thought btw that made me lol) it really depends on how powerful Tigurius is, or how attuned he is to the feeling of an alien Warp entity im with you that there may be other feelings there, but i just doubt curiosity is one which drives the Hive Mind.
and then, we arent really meant to know what is really going on, because they want to keep it a mystery (why are they here? are they running away? how many of them are there? etc.)

I see what you mean. That is definitely how evolution works. But these creatures are isolated from the rest, and Tyranid don't breed like creatures do on earth, therefore attributes arent passed on in that way and so must be applied to tyranids when thy are reborn. What im saying is that the hivemind is much more intelligent than it is given credit for. And curiosity is just something that comes from intelligence.

Also, why I said he probably didnt have long to investigate is because other than 1 other psyker all others that tried to glimpse at the hivemind were immediately fried. So im not claiming any fluff knowledge on his condition during the glimpse but I assume it hurt. Also, I wouldn't keep doing it either. What if the hivemind absorbs those psykers consciousness upon deep frying???

POST 500!

I see what you mean. That is definitely how evolution works. But these creatures are isolated from the rest, and Tyranid don't breed like creatures do on earth, therefore attributes arent passed on in that way and so must be applied to tyranids when thy are reborn. What im saying is that the hivemind is much more intelligent than it is given credit for. And curiosity is just something that comes from intelligence.

Also, why I said he probably didnt have long to investigate is because other than 1 other psyker all others that tried to glimpse at the hivemind were immediately fried. So im not claiming any fluff knowledge on his condition during the glimpse but I assume it hurt. Also, I wouldn't keep doing it either. What if the hivemind absorbs those psykers consciousness upon deep frying???

i didnt mean that was how Nid evolution worked, just evolution in general, sorry if it wasnt clear
and no doubt the Hive Mind is intelligent, i just think that curiosity is the wrong term to be applied to what is possibly the most aggressive and single-minded entity in the 40k-verse.
*ducks*
( )
and good Holy Emperor yes!it would hurt like a mother- thats actually a really good point, if the Hive Mind is absorbing the knowledge of every mind it touches (i mean psykers) then we are all totally busted

Revenent Reiko wrote:

I see what you mean. That is definitely how evolution works. But these creatures are isolated from the rest, and Tyranid don't breed like creatures do on earth, therefore attributes arent passed on in that way and so must be applied to tyranids when thy are reborn. What im saying is that the hivemind is much more intelligent than it is given credit for. And curiosity is just something that comes from intelligence.

Also, why I said he probably didnt have long to investigate is because other than 1 other psyker all others that tried to glimpse at the hivemind were immediately fried. So im not claiming any fluff knowledge on his condition during the glimpse but I assume it hurt. Also, I wouldn't keep doing it either. What if the hivemind absorbs those psykers consciousness upon deep frying???

i didnt mean that was how Nid evolution worked, just evolution in general, sorry if it wasnt clear
and no doubt the Hive Mind is intelligent, i just think that curiosity is the wrong term to be applied to what is possibly the most aggressive and single-minded entity in the 40k-verse.
*ducks*
( )
and good Holy Emperor yes!it would hurt like a mother- thats actually a really good point, if the Hive Mind is absorbing the knowledge of every mind it touches (i mean psykers) then we are all totally busted

It seems to be how we view how the hivemind thinks. TO me sending the "doom" onto malontai was a "hey I wonder if this works?" not "im hungry and want to send my new zoanthrope at these guys with long ears"

xXSir MontyXx wrote:

Revenent Reiko wrote:

I see what you mean. That is definitely how evolution works. But these creatures are isolated from the rest, and Tyranid don't breed like creatures do on earth, therefore attributes arent passed on in that way and so must be applied to tyranids when thy are reborn. What im saying is that the hivemind is much more intelligent than it is given credit for. And curiosity is just something that comes from intelligence.

Also, why I said he probably didnt have long to investigate is because other than 1 other psyker all others that tried to glimpse at the hivemind were immediately fried. So im not claiming any fluff knowledge on his condition during the glimpse but I assume it hurt. Also, I wouldn't keep doing it either. What if the hivemind absorbs those psykers consciousness upon deep frying???

i didnt mean that was how Nid evolution worked, just evolution in general, sorry if it wasnt clear
and no doubt the Hive Mind is intelligent, i just think that curiosity is the wrong term to be applied to what is possibly the most aggressive and single-minded entity in the 40k-verse.
*ducks*
( )
and good Holy Emperor yes!it would hurt like a mother- thats actually a really good point, if the Hive Mind is absorbing the knowledge of every mind it touches (i mean psykers) then we are all totally busted

It seems to be how we view how the hivemind thinks. TO me sending the "doom" onto malontai was a "hey I wonder if this works?" not "im hungry and want to send my new zoanthrope at these guys with long ears"

hmmm see there im not with you, a creature specifically designed to feed off of psychic energy and (i cant remember the rest of its attributes ), attacking a psychic race....? no, i sorry, i dont see the experimentation there, just the over-whelming urge to kill and feed manifested in a perfect creature (for the job in hand)

ahh, but the Eldar just wandered into their path on accident, they werent actively fighting the Eldar at the time. The "doom" was a last ditch effort wich would make it seem that it was saving it for something.

I don't think they could take Terra. I mean, to us the magnitude of the fleets around Terra are probably not so great, but i bet the defense system is hull to hull with very little room to navigate freely.

And plus, i have no idea why the Tyranids haven't just eaten all the Tau yet, i mean did the nids just completley miss the majority of the Tau empire ?

xXSir MontyXx wrote:ahh, but the Eldar just wandered into their path on accident, they werent actively fighting the Eldar at the time. The "doom" was a last ditch effort wich would make it seem that it was saving it for something.

or the Hive Mind hadnt been able to 'think up' a way of using the Eldars strength (psychic proficiency) as a weapon against them until that point..? i dont remember the exact fluff for the Doom, but i wasnt under theimpressino that it was a last ditch effort, more that the rest of the bugs were sacrificed as a smokscreen for the Doom to kill the infinity circuit of the Craftworld (i may well be wrong of course)

No, the entire fleet was destroyed immediately after dropping a pod of a few thousand gaunts and the doom.

May be wrong on the number of gaunts. Though this shows it used the gaunts as a diversion for the doom.

fair play, not sure y that would happen (i mean if you have the ability and the klnowledge before then, y not use it?)

I honestly think it was being saved for something. I have no idea what it was but your right, why wait?

you mean they had it already?
hmmm well the Astronomicon is a huge psychic 'event' ......lol

i will also say that i dont think the Nids will make it to Terra, not unless something cataclysmic happens at the same time, like a Black Crusade nearly succeeding (ie breaking out iof the Cadian Gate and ravaging most of the Galaxy but eventually losing) and the IoM being devastated and still recovering from it. Then, the Nids might break through.

Revenent Reiko wrote:you mean they had it already?
hmmm well the Astronomicon is a huge psychic 'event' ......lol

i will also say that i dont think the Nids will make it to Terra, not unless something cataclysmic happens at the same time, like a Black Crusade nearly succeeding (ie breaking out iof the Cadian Gate and ravaging most of the Galaxy but eventually losing) and the IoM being devastated and still recovering from it. Then, the Nids might break through.

Yes, but the hivemind knows a force that was defeated by a craftworld would definitely get sneezed at by Terran defenses and die.

Maybe it WAS for Eldar just not THOSE Eldar lol

xXSir MontyXx wrote:

Revenent Reiko wrote:you mean they had it already?
hmmm well the Astronomicon is a huge psychic 'event' ......lol

i will also say that i dont think the Nids will make it to Terra, not unless something cataclysmic happens at the same time, like a Black Crusade nearly succeeding (ie breaking out iof the Cadian Gate and ravaging most of the Galaxy but eventually losing) and the IoM being devastated and still recovering from it. Then, the Nids might break through.

Yes, but the hivemind knows a force that was defeated by a craftworld would definitely get sneezed at by Terran defenses and die.

Maybe it WAS for Eldar just not THOSE Eldar lol

i like!
and actually, as a slightly absract thought, how far away doe shte Doom need to be to absorb psychic energy?and doesnt it (in the Fluff) get stronger the more it absorbs? ergo, get it relatively close so it can get strong, and by the tme it has gotten really close it will be invulnerable
im joking of course, this would be silly (but awesome, think Galactus with Nids )

Revenent Reiko wrote:

xXSir MontyXx wrote:

Revenent Reiko wrote:you mean they had it already?
hmmm well the Astronomicon is a huge psychic 'event' ......lol

i will also say that i dont think the Nids will make it to Terra, not unless something cataclysmic happens at the same time, like a Black Crusade nearly succeeding (ie breaking out iof the Cadian Gate and ravaging most of the Galaxy but eventually losing) and the IoM being devastated and still recovering from it. Then, the Nids might break through.

Yes, but the hivemind knows a force that was defeated by a craftworld would definitely get sneezed at by Terran defenses and die.

Maybe it WAS for Eldar just not THOSE Eldar lol

i like!
and actually, as a slightly absract thought, how far away doe shte Doom need to be to absorb psychic energy?and doesnt it (in the Fluff) get stronger the more it absorbs? ergo, get it relatively close so it can get strong, and by the tme it has gotten really close it will be invulnerable
im joking of course, this would be silly (but awesome, think Galactus with Nids )

In the fluff I believe the doom was pretty much IN the circuit. Yes it does get stronger.

ahh that does present a problem then....but a Nid Craftworld, now that presents possibilities.....

put a narvhal in front of it and use it as an asteroid haha!

wait...plan forming

This would be Terra.......



You will notice there's not a lot of ships above Terra. Thats because the craftworld bullet rammed them into Terra as well.

xXSir MontyXx wrote:This would be Terra.......



You will notice there's not a lot of ships above Terra. Thats because the craftworld bullet rammed them into Terra as well.

or, 'speedbumps'

The tyranid need to do this haha

Commisar Von Humps wrote:I don't think they could take Terra. I mean, to us the magnitude of the fleets around Terra are probably not so great, but i bet the defense system is hull to hull with very little room to navigate freely.

Sure, they couldn't take Terra in a 1 on 1 slug fest right now. But, after millenia of bleeding systems of resources and the Imperium of soldiers and ships, they'd need to start reinforcing outlying areas with fleets that were defending Terra. After a while, Terra would have no planets left to draw Imperial Guard from, and just wouldn't have the resources anymore to stand up to any large force.

Commisar Von Humps wrote:And plus, i have no idea why the Tyranids haven't just eaten all the Tau yet, i mean did the nids just completley miss the majority of the Tau empire ?

A minor hive fleet, which would have rolled right over the Tau empire, hit at the same time the Imperium launched a crusade into it. This saved the Tau because the Imperium, which would have rolled right over the Tau empire, allied with the Tau. So the hive fleet was left fighting both a large Imperial Crusade and the Tau empire, and just didn't have the resources. Not to mention by the time the Imperium stepeed in to side with the Tau, the hive fleet had majorly adapted its troops to fight the Tau, so were pretty screwed by Imperial weapons and tactics.

Basically, it was good luck for the Tau that the Imperium decided it was time to wipe them from existance right then. If they did it sooner, they'd have been killed by the Imperium, and if they did it later, they would have been killed by the Tyranids.


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xXSir MontyXx wrote:put a narvhal in front of it and use it as an asteroid haha!

They don't need to. Tyranids already use asteroids as weapons. Naga used them to not only cause massive damage to a planet it was invading, but also to mask mycetic spore drops through the defense grids.

-Loki- wrote:

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xXSir MontyXx wrote:put a narvhal in front of it and use it as an asteroid haha!

They don't need to. Tyranids already use asteroids as weapons. Naga used them to not only cause massive damage to a planet it was invading, but also to mask mycetic spore drops through the defense grids.

But you could use the narvhal to boost the speed of the asteroid to many times the speed of light.... messy.

Not sure on the size of a craftworld but which is bigger? An asteroid or the craftworld?

Depends how big the asteroid is.

Craftworlds vary in size, but from the data from BFG:

Small - Maybe size of a city to large country?
Medium - Around the size of Moon - Mars
Large - Earth/Venus sized. The major ones you read about (Alaitoc, Biel-Tan etc) would fall under this category.

Commisar Von Humps wrote:

And plus, i have no idea why the Tyranids haven't just eaten all the Tau yet, i mean did the nids just completley miss the majority of the Tau empire ?

I don't think there's much in the way of genetic bonuses they could gain from wasting a lot of resources consuming the Tau. They're a small/physically weak race.

Harriticus wrote:

Commisar Von Humps wrote:

And plus, i have no idea why the Tyranids haven't just eaten all the Tau yet, i mean did the nids just completley miss the majority of the Tau empire ?

I don't think there's much in the way of genetic bonuses they could gain from wasting a lot of resources consuming the Tau. They're a small/physically weak race.

But by consuming the Ethereals, they could literally make the other races line up to be devoured...

the T'au wouldn't have any useful DNA to assimilate, but there is still Biomass.


the Kroot might be worth a nom though.


the Nids might be avoiding the t'au because of the Tendril that got beaten. they could be waiting for that tendril to assimilate it's knowledge into Anti-t'au forms that are resistant to their weaponry.

or they might be surrounding the t'au for an epic 129,600 degree(360 squared) nomfest

Grey Templar wrote:the T'au wouldn't have any useful DNA to assimilate, but there is still Biomass.


the Kroot might be worth a nom though.


the Nids might be avoiding the t'au because of the Tendril that got beaten. they could be waiting for that tendril to assimilate it's knowledge into Anti-t'au forms that are resistant to their weaponry.

or they might be surrounding the t'au for an epic 129,600 degree(360 squared) nomfest

I like that idea, but I dont think they are avoiding them though. I read a post in another forum that more 'nids are moving towards them.

Grey Templar wrote:the Kroot might be worth a nom though.

Nope.

It was mentioned in 3rd ed in a WD that Tyranids and Kroot both tend to stay away from the genetic material of the other because of the fact that they both have mutable DNA.

you might get a constantly changing tyranid running after you!

xXSir MontyXx wrote: you might get a constantly changing tyranid running after you!

*shudders*
now THAT would be creepy!

Revenent Reiko wrote:

xXSir MontyXx wrote: you might get a constantly changing tyranid running after you!

*shudders*
now THAT would be creepy!

Ymgarl Genestealers say 'Hi'.

-Loki- wrote:

Revenent Reiko wrote:

xXSir MontyXx wrote: you might get a constantly changing tyranid running after you!

*shudders*
now THAT would be creepy!

Ymgarl Genestealers say 'Hi'.

No, I mean a Tyranid that is morphing right in front of your eye's. Growing extra arms and dropping them off .

-Loki- wrote:

Revenent Reiko wrote:

xXSir MontyXx wrote: you might get a constantly changing tyranid running after you!

*shudders*
now THAT would be creepy!

Ymgarl Genestealers say 'Hi'.

oops!

Couldn't the Imperium to defend against Nid Hive ships just fire canisters full of a really powerful acid (Lets say Hydroflouric acid(H-F)) at hive ships and have them split open as soon as they get near the ships and sit back and watch the biomass dissolve before their eyes

Hlaine Larkin mk2 wrote:Couldn't the Imperium to defend against Nid Hive ships just fire canisters full of a really powerful acid (Lets say Hydroflouric acid(H-F)) at hive ships and have them split open as soon as they get near the ships and sit back and watch the biomass dissolve before their eyes

http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Bolt_weapon
see 'Hellfire Rounds'
but since this would instantly evaporate in the vacuum of space...it wont work on the Hive ships unfortunately

The Hive Fleet would also instantly react and grow Acid Resistant carapaces on all their ships.

Grey Templar wrote:The Hive Fleet would also instantly react and grow Acid Resistant carapaces on all their ships.

Everyone loves the 'nid's

The problem that people would have with beating nids would be thier adaptability and thier relentlessness. I mean, look at Macarrge. The Nid's brought the fourth most important Imperial planet to its knees. Terra being the most important, the Mars, then Cadia, then Macarrge.

Well it is possible isn't it. The galaxy has an up and a down. Sol could be attacked from both directions at once (assuming a communication between fleets, which is not even hinted at). As many posters have pointed out; virtually every soldier and ship in the galaxy would be recalled. However what if these soldiers were already engaged? Can the grey knight afford to permit the summoning of one of the 666 to stop nids? Can Cadia really be emptied leaving the eye open? Can ultramar be abandoned by the sons of Guilliman if that area of space is already crawling? Can the regiments in the damocles gulf abandon all those planets to the expansions of the tau? What if a tomb of necrons awakens? Can they truely afford to recall everyone? Even if they can, this lesson was learned in the Horus Heresy. The enemy is at the gates, it would take weeks for even the nearest legions to arrive, years for the furthest, by which time nids would have nommed everything down to the emperors bones. And with no head honcho, the gak hits the fan.

xXSir MontyXx wrote:

-Loki- wrote:

Revenent Reiko wrote:

xXSir MontyXx wrote: you might get a constantly changing tyranid running after you!

*shudders*
now THAT would be creepy!

Ymgarl Genestealers say 'Hi'.

No, I mean a Tyranid that is morphing right in front of your eye's. Growing extra arms and dropping them off .

... um, Ymgarl Genestealers say 'Hi'.

They morph their arms between different weapons and their carapace thickness and shape in seconds.


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Hlaine Larkin mk2 wrote:Couldn't the Imperium to defend against Nid Hive ships just fire canisters full of a really powerful acid (Lets say Hydroflouric acid(H-F)) at hive ships and have them split open as soon as they get near the ships and sit back and watch the biomass dissolve before their eyes

For one, after the first few hit, they'd know what the toxin was and they'd start altering their ships in defense of it. Their ships are quite capable of it, BFG has fluff describing them changing to be resistant to different weapons between engagments. Like, not growing new, resistant ship, just the ships adapting.

Secondly, the canisters wouldn't even hit the important ships. They have swarms of millions of spores around them which form a solid wall, like an organic void shield.

(assuming a communication between fleets, which is not even hinted at).

What? The hivemind controls ALL tyranids, how is communication not hinted at?

... um, Ymgarl Genestealers say 'Hi'.

They morph their arms between different weapons and their carapace thickness and shape in seconds.

I had no idea, I always wondered why the ymgarls where mentioned so much.

Inquisitor Bond wrote:(assuming a communication between fleets, which is not even hinted at)

One hive mind. There is one hive mind, the collective conciousness of every Tyranid organism in every fleet.

How is that not a clear enough hint?

The is a Hive Mind for every fleet, not one Hive Mind. Tyranids are cells in the organism of a fleet of hive ships. The hive mind is the collective consciousness of these cells communicating. It causes the "shadow in the warp" because all these lack of sentient cells communicating is a lot of "thought" data, like static.

there is ONE hive mind controlling all Nids.


the Shadow is the presense of the Hive Mind's signiture in the warp.

I don't think it is positively concluded either way, it was just my assumption, but if you have a source for your way please do enlighten me.

Grey Templar wrote:The Hive Fleet would also instantly react and grow Acid Resistant carapaces on all their ships.

What about the Life eater virus?

Inquisitor Bond wrote:I don't think it is positively concluded either way, it was just my assumption, but if you have a source for your way please do enlighten me.

there is one Hive Mind, THE Hive Mind, theres never been any question.
http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Hive_Mind
a la Lexicanum

-Loki- wrote:

xXSir MontyXx wrote:

-Loki- wrote:

Revenent Reiko wrote:

xXSir MontyXx wrote: you might get a constantly changing tyranid running after you!

*shudders*
now THAT would be creepy!

Ymgarl Genestealers say 'Hi'.

No, I mean a Tyranid that is morphing right in front of your eye's. Growing extra arms and dropping them off .

... um, Ymgarl Genestealers say 'Hi'.

They morph their arms between different weapons and their carapace thickness and shape in seconds.


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Hlaine Larkin mk2 wrote:Couldn't the Imperium to defend against Nid Hive ships just fire canisters full of a really powerful acid (Lets say Hydroflouric acid(H-F)) at hive ships and have them split open as soon as they get near the ships and sit back and watch the biomass dissolve before their eyes

For one, after the first few hit, they'd know what the toxin was and they'd start altering their ships in defense of it. Their ships are quite capable of it, BFG has fluff describing them changing to be resistant to different weapons between engagments. Like, not growing new, resistant ship, just the ships adapting.

Secondly, the canisters wouldn't even hit the important ships. They have swarms of millions of spores around them which form a solid wall, like an organic void shield.

Ok, I didn't know that. My knowledge of nids aint that great.

Couldn't the Imperium just use nukes like the US do in SGA against the Wraith ships, ehich seem to function similarly to hive ships. (They're even called the same thing)

unfortuntely not, the Hive Ships are followed/covered by spores and defending drone creatures which serve to stop many if not all enemy munitions. So, a single projectile would be stopped far short of its target.
There is also an example in the fluff of special drones which fire arcs of lightning at an Imperial shell (from a Nova cannon) and strip its outer casing, causing the charge to ignite (Courage and Honour i think)

Inquisitor Bond wrote:I don't think it is positively concluded either way, it was just my assumption, but if you have a source for your way please do enlighten me.

Are you sure you've actually been reading GW's fluff?

Every single reference to the hive mind has been about one hive mind. I've never read any fluff at all that alludes to there being a hive mind for each fleet, so I'm not sure where you got the idea. Care to give some page references?

I admit I don't have any, I just assumed that since each hive fleet behaved independently, and GW made a big deal about synapse, the range of the hive mind's communication was limited, so each hive fleet was an organism in the race that was the tyranidsss.

Inquisitor Bond wrote:I admit I don't have any, I just assumed that since each hive fleet behaved independently,

This doesn't mean they have their own hive mind. While no fluff has explained why they've been attacking in waves, no fluff has said that there is more than one hive mind. Theories range from they're the tips of a large force that is arriving early in some areas to the current hive fleets testing the galaxies defenses.

Inquisitor Bond wrote:and GW made a big deal about synapse, the range of the hive mind's communication was limited, so each hive fleet was an organism in the race that was the tyranidsss.

Don't take the tabletop synapse range at face value. it's just there as a gameplay mechanic.

Synapse does still have a limited range from synapse creatures to lesser creatures, though in fluff it's never described as short as it is in the game. Synapse creatures are always 'plugged in' though, so the range of the hive mind to creatures actually tapped in to it doesn't have any range that has ever been described. if they're a synapse creature, they are a hive mind link.

The shorter range to lesser creatures from synapse creatures is likely due to the psychic potential of the synapse creature itself. It's just the range is kept the same in gameplay to be less confusing.

think of the Hive fleets as arms. So, each one moving independantly, but controlled by the same mind.
And +1 to what Loki said.

Revenent Reiko wrote:unfortuntely not, the Hive Ships are followed/covered by spores and defending drone creatures which serve to stop many if not all enemy munitions. So, a single projectile would be stopped far short of its target.
There is also an example in the fluff of special drones which fire arcs of lightning at an Imperial shell (from a Nova cannon) and strip its outer casing, causing the charge to ignite (Courage and Honour i think)

Couldn't you just fire enogh that eventually one will slip thorugh, I know it wouldn't be that efficient but the Imperium as a whole isn't.

according to fluff, a really disciplined Imperium crew can fire and reload one Nova cannon in 30minutes.
bearing this in mind, how common are Nova cannons? and how long would this take? also, a Nova cannon shot (the most powerful the Imperium can muster) is not a one-hit-kill on a hive ship...i would love it if it were so, but it isnt unfortunately


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otherwise, this is pretty much how the IoM fights Nids in space, hit em, keep hittin em, and aim mostly for the Hive ships

Hlaine Larkin mk2 wrote:

Revenent Reiko wrote:unfortuntely not, the Hive Ships are followed/covered by spores and defending drone creatures which serve to stop many if not all enemy munitions. So, a single projectile would be stopped far short of its target.
There is also an example in the fluff of special drones which fire arcs of lightning at an Imperial shell (from a Nova cannon) and strip its outer casing, causing the charge to ignite (Courage and Honour i think)

Couldn't you just fire enogh that eventually one will slip thorugh, I know it wouldn't be that efficient but the Imperium as a whole isn't.

Of cource you can. It's an organic shield. As long as you keep hitting it and destroying the spores, eventually the ship will run out or they will be dying faster than it can replenish them. However, the same can be done to void shields. Keep hitting them and eventually you're going to make a weak point and break through.

The Tyranid spore shield has the benefit of not catastrophically collapsing and further damaging the ship like a void shield can. Though I'd expect the spore shield to be weaker to things like lances or melta cannons, anything that burns through organics. Torpedos and anything using some kind of munition can be blocked by a spore running into it before the ship does, but a lance would likely burn right through. Though by the time a Tyranid ship is that close, you'd want it to be pretty close to dead because it bites your ship in half.

-Loki- wrote:

Hlaine Larkin mk2 wrote:

Revenent Reiko wrote:unfortuntely not, the Hive Ships are followed/covered by spores and defending drone creatures which serve to stop many if not all enemy munitions. So, a single projectile would be stopped far short of its target.
There is also an example in the fluff of special drones which fire arcs of lightning at an Imperial shell (from a Nova cannon) and strip its outer casing, causing the charge to ignite (Courage and Honour i think)

Couldn't you just fire enogh that eventually one will slip thorugh, I know it wouldn't be that efficient but the Imperium as a whole isn't.

Of cource you can. It's an organic shield. As long as you keep hitting it and destroying the spores, eventually the ship will run out or they will be dying faster than it can replenish them. However, the same can be done to void shields. Keep hitting them and eventually you're going to make a weak point and break through.

The Tyranid spore shield has the benefit of not catastrophically collapsing and further damaging the ship like a void shield can. Though I'd expect the spore shield to be weaker to things like lances or melta cannons, anything that burns through organics. Torpedos and anything using some kind of munition can be blocked by a spore running into it before the ship does, but a lance would likely burn right through. Though by the time a Tyranid ship is that close, you'd want it to be pretty close to dead because it bites your ship in half.

I find the way Tyranid space combat is carried out almost comical. I love the image of these super advanced space-craft just being bitten in half by actual jaws of some massive creature.

Which spits at you first and is constantly followed by its mutating babies...

I just attacking anything near sol they would face most of the space marine chapters and if they got to terra by some miracle and defeated all the forces on the ground they have to get by the religious zealots on terra. so eventually they nids would run out of bugs. but thats a big if they get past the defenses.


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I mean the nova cannons on the orbital platforms would kill the bugs.

Nova cannons hurt.....

samtheking wrote:I just attacking anything near sol they would face most of the space marine chapters and if they got to terra by some miracle and defeated all the forces on the ground they have to get by the religious zealots on terra. so eventually they nids would run out of bugs. but thats a big if they get past the defenses.

Why would they face most of the Space marine chapters? Most of them are based nowhere near Terra, and the shadow in the warp would make warping in to help so unreliable that a lot of forces would come out nowhere near Terra.

That said, the Imperium should probably let a Tyranid vanguard reach Terra. Why are they scared? It would be beneficial. They know the Tyranids avoided the dyson sphere because there was nothing they could consume. If a vanguard of Tyranids hit Terra, they'd tell the hive mind to forget it - there's nothing useful on the planet, just a few billion humans, which is not worth expending the biomass to get to. Nearly all of the useful biomass they get comes from the planet itself, and Terra has practically nothing left on the surface bar a giant city. It's practically a tombworld. Let a vanguard get in, and save themselves the trouble.

-Loki- wrote:

samtheking wrote:I just attacking anything near sol they would face most of the space marine chapters and if they got to terra by some miracle and defeated all the forces on the ground they have to get by the religious zealots on terra. so eventually they nids would run out of bugs. but thats a big if they get past the defenses.

Why would they face most of the Space marine chapters? Most of them are based nowhere near Terra, and the shadow in the warp would make warping in to help so unreliable that a lot of forces would come out nowhere near Terra.

That said, the Imperium should probably let a Tyranid vanguard reach Terra. Why are they scared? It would be beneficial. They know the Tyranids avoided the dyson sphere because there was nothing they could consume. If a vanguard of Tyranids hit Terra, they'd tell the hive mind to forget it - there's nothing useful on the planet, just a few billion humans, which is not worth expending the biomass to get to. Nearly all of the useful biomass they get comes from the planet itself, and Terra has practically nothing left on the surface bar a giant city. It's practically a tombworld. Let a vanguard get in, and save themselves the trouble.

Never thought of this. Looking at orbital pictures of terra there is so much pollution you cannot see the ground and even if you could there are no oceans (which is insane amounts of resources by the way.) The ONLY thing there is the amount of humans and the Emperor, however the emperor being there would push the Hivemind to try to invade maybe?

No useful biomass on Terra? Exactly how do we measure the 'usefulness' of the Emperor's DNA?

I would sacrifice a thousand Behemoths to get a single chromosome.

Asherian Command wrote:

Grey Templar wrote:The Hive Fleet would also instantly react and grow Acid Resistant carapaces on all their ships.

What about the Life eater virus?

the Ordo Xeno is horrendously afraid that the Nids would be able to absorb the Life Eater virus and use it against them.


its a risk they can't afford to take. the Nids have been able to absorb other Imperial Bio weaponry so they don't want to risk it.


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lindsay40k wrote:No useful biomass on Terra? Exactly how do we measure the 'usefulness' of the Emperor's DNA?

I would sacrifice a thousand Behemoths to get a single chromosome.

Genetically, the Emperor is just a human.


it was his psychic powers that made him special.


his soul was created when every Human Psyker(Shamens at the time) commited mass suicide so they could all be born into one body. after that, the new Emperor was able to make his body immortal with his own psychic powers, but on a genetic level he would still be human.

Thing is - and I realise we're risking another threadjack here, but heck this is a 'fun' thread as far as I'm concerned - psykers are mutants, aren't they? Their powers are phenotypes arising from their genotypes, aren't they? These psykers/shaman would therefore have had to craft a body physiologically capable of bearing the sum of their powers - in other words, bearing all of their psychic mutations and perhaps more?

Just give me one of those genomes. The Doom of Terra will eat Tzeentch for breakfast

Psychic powers are more of a mutation of the soul.

just like Blanks are Soulless and are able to harness negative warp energy(the most powerful ones like the Culexus anyway)


a psyker has a different soul from a normal human, but that is the only difference AFAIK

http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Psykers
there is some mention of it being an actual biological mutation, but its not explained very well im afraid.
could easily go either way

yeah, i saw that, but it doesn't say its a Biological one.

the Navigator gene is a biological mutation though.


not really enough information either way.

oops i meant to put the link on for The Assignment scale.
Theres mention that with the Alpha and Beta 'class' (not to mention Alpha-plus) psykers, humans do not possess the necessary evolutionary developement. Makes me think its biological at least, but hey ho, still not enough to go on.
heres the link btw
http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/The_Assignment

lindsay40k wrote:No useful biomass on Terra? Exactly how do we measure the 'usefulness' of the Emperor's DNA?

I would sacrifice a thousand Behemoths to get a single chromosome.

You're not thinking like a Tyranid. They're not trying to make themselves better - they've already transcended mortality and mechanical aids, and have become the perfect biological life form, controlled by the most powerful psychic entity ever - their collective consiousness. They just want to feed. There's very little on Terra to actually feed on. In fact, the closer they get to Terra, the less biomass there is to feed on. It makes as much sense attacking Terra as it does a tomb world.

-Loki- wrote:

lindsay40k wrote:No useful biomass on Terra? Exactly how do we measure the 'usefulness' of the Emperor's DNA?

I would sacrifice a thousand Behemoths to get a single chromosome.

You're not thinking like a Tyranid. They're not trying to make themselves better - they've already transcended mortality and mechanical aids, and have become the perfect biological life form, controlled by the most powerful psychic entity ever - their collective consiousness. They just want to feed. There's very little on Terra to actually feed on. In fact, the closer they get to Terra, the less biomass there is to feed on. It makes as much sense attacking Terra as it does a tomb world.

Every single invasion of a militarised settlement involves an initial biomass deficit as expendable organisms are thrown at the defenders to deplete their ammo and isolate them. As long as you've got a renewable energy source (Sol), you can just recycle your own bodies to balance the biomass budget. At the theatre level, the Hive Mind has been observed to make massive sacrifices for long-term gain - and to intelligently understand the need and means to disrupt prey social organisations. The Hive Mind has had so many Lictors and Genestealers assimilate senior military personnel, it's very unlikely to be unaware that the massive HERE WE ARE beacon screaming at the warp from Terra is a pretty important part of its second most numerous prey's ability to organise to defend itself.

The fact that the Tyranids continue to evolve and assimilate other species' DNA proves that they are far from finished developing. The two questions this thread needs to resolve are:

- Does the Hive Mind consciously and actively hunt for exceptional organisms to assimilate, or does it drift towards inhabited worlds on autopilot and look through the goodies it finds?

- Does the Hive Mind's strategy of bringing down prey social structures from within go beyond siccing Lictors on commanders in warzones and giving Genestealers the imperative to spread, or does it have a wider understanding of the societies on which it predates?

If either question can have the latter answer, then the Hive Mind has the potential to see the Emperor's DNA and/or the snuffing of the Astronomicon as a high priority objective. Those are two 'win buttons' waiting to be pressed, only question is if they are visible to the Hive Mind's perception.

1 - eat Emperor's body
2 - spawn the Doom of Terra
3 - mindjack the psykers powering the Astronomicon
4 - disable entire warp fleet
5 - almighty ruck between Swarmlord and Doomie versus newly reincarnated Emperor

lindsay40k wrote:Every single invasion of a militarised settlement involves an initial biomass deficit as expendable organisms are thrown at the defenders to deplete their ammo and isolate them. As long as you've got a renewable energy source (Sol), you can just recycle your own bodies to balance the biomass budget. At the theatre level, the Hive Mind has been observed to make massive sacrifices for long-term gain - and to intelligently understand the need and means to disrupt prey social organisations. The Hive Mind has had so many Lictors and Genestealers assimilate senior military personnel, it's very unlikely to be unaware that the massive HERE WE ARE beacon screaming at the warp from Terra is a pretty important part of its second most numerous prey's ability to organise to defend itself.

The Tyranids operate at a massive biomass deficit. They don't get their useful biomass from bodies, they get it from the over-reproductive planetary flora which is caused by the initial pahse of the invasion - filling the atmosphere with spores that cause the planetary flora to explosively reproduce. The fact that bodies of defenders and attackers alike are killed in a variety of ways that would make their reabsorbtion very difficult means that relying on the bodies of the slain to replace themselves is very stupid. Bodies are frequently burned to ash, blown into peices and scattered over a huge area or simply vaporised by large explosions, which makes it very difficult to reclaim the biomass.

What does Terra lack in its entirety? Planetary flora. It doesn't even have oceans. It's a barren, dry husk of a world covered in an enormous city made of processed minerals and ores. There's nothing for the Tyranids to actually use to not only replenish biomass during the attack, but replace said losses after the attack. Terra is a terrible target for a race that just wants to absorb biomass.

lindsay40k wrote:The fact that the Tyranids continue to evolve and assimilate other species' DNA proves that they are far from finished developing. The two questions this thread needs to resolve are:

- Does the Hive Mind consciously and actively hunt for exceptional organisms to assimilate, or does it drift towards inhabited worlds on autopilot and look through the goodies it finds?

Are you going by new or old fluff? Old fluff they didn't actively seek out new DNA for the sake of new evolutions. They evolved new creatures to overcome obstacles. It's not a question of them looking for new things to make, its them making new things to make feeding easier.

Going by new fluff, they don't do it at all. They've had all their creatures since they entered the galaxy, so this question is moot anyway now.

lindsay40k wrote:- Does the Hive Mind's strategy of bringing down prey social structures from within go beyond siccing Lictors on commanders in warzones and giving Genestealers the imperative to spread, or does it have a wider understanding of the societies on which it predates?

Lictors don't, and have never, brought down societies from within like Genestealers. They land, assess biomass and defense levels, and call in the cavalry. Even the Deathleaper strain doesn't, it's basically a terror weapon.

Genestealers are actually strange in that they actively avoid the hive mind. They're independant creatures. Whether bringing down societies from within was a planned feature of Genestealers is pretty unknown, since they go out of they way to not share any intelligence they gained from the hive mind by fleeing a planet before the hive fleet arrives.

lindsay40k wrote:If either question can have the latter answer, then the Hive Mind has the potential to see the Emperor's DNA and/or the snuffing of the Astronomicon as a high priority objective. Those are two 'win buttons' waiting to be pressed, only question is if they are visible to the Hive Mind's perception.

1 - eat Emperor's body
2 - spawn the Doom of Terra
3 - mindjack the psykers powering the Astronomicon
4 - disable entire warp fleet
5 - almighty ruck between Swarmlord and Doomie versus newly reincarnated Emperor

This method of shutting down the astronomican is needlessly complex. If all they want to do is shut it down, they just need to sit in Sols Oort cloud and throw billions of huge asteroids at Earth. They'd eventually level the throne room. And if they knew about and wanted to get to the Emperor for his DNA, they certainly haven't been showing tactics of a race approacing from outside the galaxy who wanted to do that. They wouldn't have bothered approaching from any direction but the shortest, above and below the galactic plane, and hit Sol with everything they had.

Genetically, the Emperor is just a human.

No, his DNA IS special. He was like a space marine without going through all the stuff to become one. And that still is not a fair representation of what he really is.

xXSir MontyXx wrote:

Genetically, the Emperor is just a human.

No, his DNA IS special. He was like a space marine without going through all the stuff to become one. And that still is not a fair representation of what he really is.

His DNA is special in that he was immortal. He is a human, albeit an immortal human with unprecedented psychic might, born from a mortal, since he's every old shaman reincarnated, and reincarnated people are souls of someone else in a new body. Well, according to old fluff which I don't think has been refuted.

He isn't like a space marine at all - the primarchs were him attempting to scientifically create beings close to his level of power, and space marines were created from them. But nothing has been said about all the extra organs and things being in him - he didn't need all of that, since again, he was born immortal.

-Loki- wrote:

xXSir MontyXx wrote:

Genetically, the Emperor is just a human.

No, his DNA IS special. He was like a space marine without going through all the stuff to become one. And that still is not a fair representation of what he really is.

His DNA is special in that he was immortal. He is a human, albeit an immortal human with unprecedented psychic might, born from a mortal, since he's every old shaman reincarnated, and reincarnated people are souls of someone else in a new body. Well, according to old fluff which I don't think has been refuted.

He isn't like a space marine at all - the primarchs were him attempting to scientifically create beings close to his level of power, and space marines were created from them. But nothing has been said about all the extra organs and things being in him - he didn't need all of that, since again, he was born immortal.

Exactly, as i said he didnt have to go through anything to be imortal like a space marine. (augmentations)