That small list I posted a few weeks ago has grown considerably:
41-36 LEMARTES GUARDIAN OF THE LOST 41-38 ASTORATH THE GRIM 41-39 MEPHISTON LORD OF DEATH 41-40 BLOOD ANGELS COMMANDER DANTE 42-43 CATACHAN SNIPERS 43-13 CHAOS DREADNOUGHT 43-18 CHAOS SPACE MARINE RAPTORS 43-20 CHAOS HAVOCS 43-21 CHAOS THOUSAND SONS 43-23 DEATH GUARD PLAGUE MARINES 43-36 ABADDON THE DESPOILER 43-40 CHAOS SPACE MARINE LORD 43-41 CHAOS SPACE MARINE SORCERER 43-42 CHAOS LORD WITH JUMP PACK 43-43 HURON BLACKHEART 43-44 KHORNE LORD 43-49 CHAOS OBLITERATORS 44-38 DARK ANGELS COMPANY MASTER 45-13 DARK ELDAR INCUBI 45-14 DARK ELDAR MANDRAKES 45-36 URIEN RAKARTH 45-37 DARK ELDAR LELITH HESPERAX 45-38 Dark Eldar Clawed Fiend 45-39 Dark Eldar Razorwing Flock 45-40 Dark Eldar Khymera 45-41 Dark Eldar Succubus 45-42 Dark Eldar Beastmaster 46-13 ELDAR SHINING SPEAR SQUAD 46-16 ELDAR FARSEER AND WARLOCK BODYGUARD 46-22 ELDAR DARK REAPERS 46-23 ELDAR FIRE DRAGONS 46-24 ELDAR HOWLING BANSHEES 46-25 ELDAR STRIKING SCORPIONS 46-26 ELDAR SWOOPING HAWKS 46-27 ELDAR WARP SPIDERS 46-29 ELDAR RANGERS 46-30 ELDAR AUTARCH ON JET BIKE 46-34 ELDAR HARLEQUINS 46-35 ELDAR FARSEER 46-36 ELDAR WARLOCKS 46-37 ELDAR WRAITHGUARD 46-46 ELDAR AVATAR 47-36 IMPERIAL GUARD OGRYN BONE EAD 47-37 IMPERIAL GUARD COMMISSAR 47-43 IMPERIAL GUARD OGRYN 47-45 CADIAN ASSAULT WEAPONS 47-56 COMMISSAR YARRICK 47-66 CADIAN SNIPERS 48-11 SPACE MARINE BIKE 48-18 SPACE MARINE CHAPLAIN ON BIKE 48-24 SPACE MARINE TECHMARINE WITH SERVITORS 48-31 SPACE MARINE STERNGUARD VETERANS 48-33 SPACE MARINE VANGUARD VETERAN SQUAD 48-35 MARNEUS CALGAR AND HONOUR GUARD 48-38 SPACE MARINE CHAPLAINS 48-39 SPACE MARINE APOTHECARY 48-42 TERMINATOR CAPTAIN 48-43 TERMINATOR LIBRARIAN 48-44 SPACE MARINE TERMINATOR CHAPLAIN 48-45 SPACE MARINE CHAPLAIN WITH JUMP PACK 48-53 SPACE MARINE SCOUT SERGEANT TELION 48-54 SPACE MARINE SERGEANT CHRONUS 48-55 CRIMSON FISTS PEDRO KANTOR 48-56 ULTRAMARINES CAPTAIN SICARIUS 48-91 SPACE MARINE MASTERS OF THE CHAPTER 48-95 Legion of the Damned Squad 48-96 Damned Legionnaires 48-97 Damned Legionnaire with Heavy Weapon 49-10 NECRON HEAVY DESTROYER 49-12 NECRON C’TAN NIGHTBRINGER 49-13 NECRON C’TAN DECEIVER 49-35 NECRON LORD WITH RESURRECTION ORB 49-39 NECRON IMMORTAL 49-42 NECRON TOMB SPYDER 49-44 NECRON PARIAHS 49-45 NECRON WRAITHS 50-18 ORK WARLORD GHAZGHKULL THRAKKA 50-19 ORK KOMMANDOS 50-23 ORK BIG MEK WITH SHOKK ATTACK GUN 50-24 ORK TANKBUSTAS 50-35 ORK WARBOSS 50-36 ORK WEIRDBOY 50-38 ORKS IN MEGA ARMOUR 50-39 ORK PAINBOY 50-40 BOSS ZAGSTRUK 50-41 KAPTIN BADRUKK 50-42 BOSS SNIKROT 50-47 ORK BIG MEK WITH BOSS POLE 50-51 ORK BIG MEK 51-09 TYRANID HIVE TYRANT 51-14 TYRANID BIOVORE 51-15 Tyranid Pyrovore 51-35 TYRANID ZOANTHROPE 51-36 Tyranid Venomthrope 51-38 TYRANID LICTOR 51-39 TYRANID BROODLORD 51-42 TYRANID TYRANT GUARD 51-43 Tyranid Hive Guard 53-09 CANIS WOLFBORN 53-35 NJAL STORMCALLER 53-46 LOGAN GRIMNAR 55-11 BLACK TEMPLARS SWORD BRETHREN SQUAD 55-40 THE EMPERORS CHAMPION 56-12 TAU XV88 BROADSIDE BATTLESUIT 56-15 TAU SNIPER DRONE TEAM 56-16 TAU CRISIS BATTLESUIT COMMANDER 56-20 TAU VESPID STINGWINGS 56-36 TAU PATHFINDERS 56-42 KROOTOX 56-43 KROOT SHAPER 56-44 KROOT HOUNDS 56-45 TAU PATHFINDER RAIL RIFLES SQUAD 81-07 BEASTMEN TUSKGOR CHARIOT 81-12 BEASTMEN CENTIGOR HERD 81-35 CHAOS BEASTLORD 82-08 LOUEN LEONCOEUR KING OF BRETONNIA 82-37 BRETONNIAN LORD 82-40 BRETONNIAN BATTLE STANDARD 82-42 BRETONNIAN MOUNTED YEOMAN 82-46 BRETONNIAN DAMSEL 83-11 CHAOS CHARIOT 83-13 CHAOS WARRIORS CHOSEN COMMAND 83-14 CHAOS WARRIORS CHOSEN 83-17 ARCHAON LORD OF THE ENDTIMES 83-18 KHORNE CHAOS LORD ON JUGGERNAUT 83-21 LORD OF SLAANESH ON DAEMONIC MOUNT 83-23 CHAOS LORD ON DAEMONIC MOUNT 83-37 NURGLE CHAOS SORCERER 83-39 WULFRIK THE WANDERER 83-40 SIGVALD THE MAGNIFICENT 83-56 CHAMPION OF CHAOS 83-58 KHORNE CHAOS CHAMPION 84-07 DWARF ANVIL OF DOOM 84-15 DWARF GYROCOPTER 84-19 DWARF GRUDGE THROWER 84-20 DWARF BOLT THROWER 84-21 DWARF HAMMERERS 84-22 DWARF HAMMERERS COMMAND 84-25 DWARF SLAYERS 84-26 DWARF SLAYERS COMMAND 84-40 DWARF SLAYER LORD 84-41 DWARF RUNELORD 84-43 DWARF MASTER ENGINEER 84-59 DWARF LORD & SHIELDBEARERS 85-14 DARK ELF WAR HYDRA 85-15 DARK ELF WITCH ELVES 85-16 DARK ELF WITCH ELF COMMAND 85-17 DARK ELF EXECUTIONERS 85-18 DARK ELF EXECUTIONER COMMAND 85-19 DARK ELF BLACK GUARD 85-20 DARK ELF BLACK GUARD COMMAND 85-21 DARK ELF SHADES 85-35 DARK ELF ASSASSIN 85-37 DARK ELF LOKHIR FELLHEART 85-39 DARK ELF REAPER BOLT THROWER 85-43 DARK ELF DREADLORD 85-44 DARK ELF DREADLORD ON COLD ONE 85-45 DARK ELF SUPREME SORCERESS ON COLD ONE 85-46 DARK ELF SUPREME SORCERESS 85-50 DARK ELF DARK RIDERS 86-38 EMPIRE WARRIOR PRIESTS 86-41 EMPIRE ENGINEERS 87-24 HIGH ELF SHADOW WARRIORS 87-36 ALITH ANAR THE SHADOW KING 87-49 PHOENIX GUARD CARADRYN 87-50 HIGH ELF KORHIL 88-08 LIZARDMEN SLANN MAGE PRIEST 88-10 ANCIENT SCAR LEADER KROQ GAR 88-39 SKINK WARCHIEFS 88-42 SALAMANDER HUNTING PACK 88-46 LIZARDMEN SKINK PRIEST 88-48 LIZARDMEN SAURUS LORD ON FOOT 89-09 ORC WARBOSS ON WYVERN 89-12 GOBLIN ROCK LOBBER 89-13 GOBLIN DOOM DIVER 89-26 GORBAD IRONCLAW 89-35 Savage Orc Great Shaman on War Boar 89-36 Wurrzag 89-37 Orcs & Goblins Nasty Skulkers 89-38 SNOTLINGS 89-43 GOBLIN SPEAR CHUKKA 89-45 GRIMGOR IRONHIDE 89-47 NIGHT GOBLIN SQUIG HERDERS 89-59 BLACK ORC BIG BOSS 90-35 SKAVEN WARLORD 90-37 WARLORD QUEEK HEADTAKER 90-38 DEATHMASTER SNIKCH 90-41 IKIT CLAW 90-42 SKAVEN WARLOCK ENGINEER 90-43 TRETCH CRAVENTAIL 90-44 SKAVEN DOOM-FLAYER WEAPON TEAM 90-46 SKAVEN WARP-GRINDER WEAPON TEAM 90-47 SKAVEN POISON WIND GLOBADIERS 90-49 SKAVEN JEZZAILS 91-09 VAMPIRE COUNTS BLACK COACH 91-13 VAMPIRE COUNTS VARGHULF 91-18 VAMPIRE COUNTS MANNFRED 91-36 VAMPIRE COUNTS WINGED VAMPIRE LORD 91-37 VAMPIRE COUNTS VAMPIRE LORD 91-38 VAMPIRE COUNTS KONRAD VON CARSTEIN 91-39 VAMPIRE COUNTS VLAD VON CARSTEIN 91-41 BLACK KNIGHTS 91-42 BLACK KNIGHT COMMAND 91-45 NECROMANCERS 91-47 SPIRIT HOST 91-52 UNDEAD WRAITHS 91-55 UNDEAD BANSHEE 91-56 UNDEAD BAT SWARM 91-59 FELL BATS 92-10 WOOD ELF TREEMAN 92-12 WOOD ELF WILD RIDERS 92-36 WOOD ELF LORD MOUNTED 92-37 WOOD ELF WARDANCERS 92-39 WOOD ELF WAYWATCHERS 92-40 WOOD ELF ETERNAL GUARD 92-42 WOOD ELF SPELLSINGERS 92-43 WOOD ELF WARHAWK RIDER 92-44 WOOD ELF TREE KIN 92-62 WOOD ELF LORD WITH GREAT WEAPON 94-10 TOMB KINGS BONE GIANT 95-11 OGRE TYRANT 95-12 OGRE HUNTER 95-17 OGRE BUTCHER 95-35 OGRE MANEATERS 95-37 OGRE GORGER 95-39 YHETEE 97-10 PLAGUEBEARERS OF NURGLE 97-11 PLAGUEBEARERS OF NURGLE COMMAND 97-13 FLAMERS OF TZEENTCH 97-14 FLESH HOUNDS OF KHORNE 97-18 GREATER DAEMON OF TZEENTCH 97-20 GREATER DAEMON OF KHORNE 97-36 THE MASQUE 97-37 BEAST OF NURGLE 97-38 FIEND OF SLAANESH 97-39 KARANAK 97-40 CHAOS NURGLINGS 97-45 THE CHANGELING 99-19 CHAOS EMPERORS CHILDREN
We still have no real confirmation if these means that these models are going Direct Only, or are just going Direct Only until they are out of stock and then gone forever.
Either way, it's time to start panic-buying!!!
BYE
P.S. This is the 100th thread I've started at Dakka. Yay for me. :-)
P.P.S. I was planning on using my 100th thread to do a Cover-2-Cover review of the Grey Knight Codex... but as I consider that Codex to be the absolute nadir of all 40K releases since the start of 5th Ed, I decided that I couldn’t be bothered.
We were talking about this at the LGS today, and the owner said he was told by GeeDub that they were being 'repackaged'. We all agreed that we had no idea what that really meant
The words that got my attention when talking to my sales rep at GW were:
'On sell down' and 'While supplies last'.
A simple repackaging would have been done over time. I suspect there is a lot more to it, and am placing my bet on spin cast resin vs. just a packaging format.
Frankly, I'll be pissed as hell if I was told to get rid of metal, just so I could fill my shelves back up with repackaged metal.
I didn't include the LOTR stuff, so the list is actually longer than that.
And from a 40K perspective, this list will completely gut Eldar, Necron, Chaos Daemons and especially Tyranid players. Yes, Matt Ward’s about to outdo himself with a second attempt at the ‘worst 40K release ever’ when ‘Crons get redone at the end of the year, so their missing models aren’t such a big deal, but for the others it’s essentially ripping the heart out of the army. No Aspect Warriors? No Daemons outside of the few plastic ones that exist? The Tyranids will be left with 6 kits from a Codex that’s already missing half its available units (and with no Wave 2 in sight).
Repackaging on this scale just doesn’t seem realistic (or, at least, not in such a sweeping all-at-once manner).
It's too much stuff to discontinue all of a sudden, and it's alot to re-release in resin. Who knows what GW are doing? I think it's gonna be a direct-only thing, any other way is a bit sudden and drastic; cause that's A LOT of kits.
When I saw all the Necron stuff though my heart shouted "UPDATE ON IT'S WAY!" Then I glanced over the rest of the list...
samrtk wrote:It's too much stuff to discontinue all of a sudden, and it's alot to re-release in resin. Who knows what GW are doing? I think it's gonna be a direct-only thing, any other way is a bit sudden and drastic; cause that's A LOT of kits.
Well given their response to online sellers was “No shopping cart for you! Hurr!”, it’s hardly a stretch of the imagination that the removal of all metal kits from stockists is their next ham-fisted attempt to get back at the people who are selling (and have therefore already paid for) their stock.
Can someone check to see if they missed any metal models in this possible list of models being discontinued?
And why don't GW just simply yank the rug from all retailers and simply sell all their products themselves? It'd certainly kill their company faster if all you could buy of GW was from GW itself.
Because flailing around like this is more interesting?
I'm thinking, like others have already said, these will go to direct only to slowly chip down the remaining stock while they switch over to resin. Hopefully the quality doesn't drop when they do this.
Looks like I picked a hell of a time to get back into 40K... especially considering that my girlfriend and my nephew both decided to follow me. So that's two CSM armies and one Blood Angels army that'll be affected by this.
Granted most of what we have left to buy is in plastic, but there are still a few things such as HQ's and Daemons that are going to be a problem(possibly).
I wish GW would pull their heads out of their asses and give an official explanation of what's going on.... be it a news letter or message on their website... something.
JoeyHeadwounds wrote:
I wish GW would pull their heads out of their asses and give an official explanation of what's going on.... be it a news letter or message on their website... something.
I guarantee that they won't even give us the dignity of a response because this outcry of the Pewter Curtain will go unheard.
GW is still leagues better than Hasbro that owns DnD and MtG, which has done a stellar job in slowly killing DnD and morphing MtG into something entirely different (not sure if this is a good idea yet).
Just noticed there are no Inquisitional units up there at all. But, they might have already been discontinued anyway. If not perhaps it helps hint towards when the SoB codex may come out if at all. For the GK stuff, I think it's more of a case of being too new still.
I wish GW would pull their heads out of their asses and give an official explanation of what's going on.... be it a news letter or message on their website... something.
WarOne wrote:Can someone check to see if they missed any metal models in this possible list of models being discontinued?
And why don't GW just simply yank the rug from all retailers and simply sell all their products themselves? It'd certainly kill their company faster if all you could buy of GW was from GW itself.
I didn't see Ahriman, Kharn or Lucius on the list, so it's not an exhaustive list of metal models. At least not yet.
45-13 DARK ELDAR INCUBI
45-14 DARK ELDAR MANDRAKES
45-36 URIEN RAKARTH
45-37 DARK ELDAR LELITH HESPERAX
45-38 Dark Eldar Clawed Fiend
45-39 Dark Eldar Razorwing Flock
45-40 Dark Eldar Khymera
45-41 Dark Eldar Succubus
45-42 Dark Eldar Beastmaster
These just came out so it looks like resin is on the way.
I really hope someone of higher caliber writing and rules development will steer the next iteration of the CSM codex. Fingers and toes crossed. OT: I guess this means I should buy those centigor, bestigor chariot, mounted yeomen, and lascannon havocs I still need...
I am glad I got what I wanted that was metal before this happened, but hopefully that means that CSM players get some new kits. IIRC the actual chaos dreadnought kit was a nightmare to work with.
VermGho5t wrote:I really hope someone of higher caliber writing and rules development will steer the next iteration of the CSM codex. Fingers and toes crossed. OT: I guess this means I should buy those centigor, bestigor chariot, mounted yeomen, and lascannon havocs I still need...
Perhaps this is simply a tactic to scare us all into panic-buying. I wouldn't put it past them.
When did this all start? It wasn't Apr. 1st, by any chance?
Well, if all of their metals are permanently going to a direct-only format, with no resin replacements at lower cost or available through discounted retailers, that'll be the end of GW games for me. I'm struggling to put armies together as it is.
Blackmoor wrote:45-13 DARK ELDAR INCUBI
45-14 DARK ELDAR MANDRAKES
45-36 URIEN RAKARTH
45-37 DARK ELDAR LELITH HESPERAX
45-38 Dark Eldar Clawed Fiend
45-39 Dark Eldar Razorwing Flock
45-40 Dark Eldar Khymera
45-41 Dark Eldar Succubus
45-42 Dark Eldar Beastmaster
These just came out so it looks like resin is on the way.
I think it's pretty certainly flagging a move to resin, which actually makes tremendous sense for GW (whatever one's personal feelings as amodeller) because of their rising costs and falling profits. The cynical might suggest that they are relying on 'guerilla marketing' (like this thread, which obviously wasn't posted with that in mind, but if it gets peole thinking 'oh god, I must get that soon...') to push sales of these discontinued models so they're pretty much cleared by the time they're ready to release resin replacements. the flip side of that is that it might be more effective for GW to just outright say that -- but the counter to that is if they know a small but significantly vocal section of their customer base is going to be unhappy about a move to resin, the later they come out with a definitive announcement the better.
I'd guess that resin will be marked as cheaeaper and 'just as good' so better value, with an added 'and metal prices are rising horribly, so regrettably/with great sadness/whatever...' tag line. In short, it'll be put forward as an improvemment and necessary modernisation. GW are actually pretty good at the whole positive-marketing thing, and the fact is that the majority of their customer base won't care enough to abandon the hobby. Yes, some will, and plenty more will complain mightily and threaten to. But at the end of the day, most will just carry on. I remember when GW shops used to stock all sorts of games, Citadel made a range of miniatures for all sorts of rpgs (I remember their Runequest sets with great fondness) not just their own and White Dwarf was an rpg magazine, not a GW wargame one. I was gutted when they went to all 'own brand' because at that time GW was pretty much the only retail outlet in my area stocking wargames and rpgs. But that change was stupendously good for their business, even though I hated it and
didn't buy any of their products for some years.
I'd predict boxed kits actually coming down in cost -- but not by too much, just enough to hit the better price points in. Say £19.95 or maybe £18.95 to start with -- instead of £20.50). If resin saves them a lot of money (and bear in mind most of their overheads are going to be for things other than materials), then it's possible they could slash up to a quarter off the price of boxes and simply hope to shift greater volumes (and more paint...). But that depends on how they see their business developing
As many of you may have noticed we've been subtly sending the grots out to retrieve many of our blisters but eventually even the stealthiest of grots will be noticed (grots, stealthy? - some webteam pleb) and so we are pleased to announce that all of our metal range from the 30/feb/1923 will be produced in resin. This is similar to the materials used by forgeworld (but without the feth-awful quality - some honest guy that's just been fired) and should be even easier to model. Sadly growing metal prices and production costs have caused us to re-evaluate how we practically steal money from you our loyal fans who kept us afloat during troubled times, and to reward this we are increasing prices. For your continued contribution to Kirbys retirement fund you can rest assured that you are a loyal GW fan and can be proud to say that you have the most crapulent hobby known to mankind.
apart from the fact I think there will be a small drop in price 'even superior quality resin allowing a cost-saving we are happy to pass on to our loyal customers -- now you can buy even more models!', I think that's not a bad stab at what we'll see...
I think they'd regard any extra investment in equipment to be a long-term cost, as most businesses would, thus spread over several or many years. GW are usually very smart in their approach to evolutions and occasional revolution. They may not lower their prices, but I'd be very surprised to see them raised simply due to a switch to resin. The fact is though their business model was beginning to stutter and, as they have done in the past, they will be taking action to get it back on course (as they see the course, not necessarily you or I).
One way of winning over many gamers who will be a bit disgruntled with a switch to resin would be by releasing a mass of kits for several neglected armies and saying 'look! here's what we can do now!'
So... GW doesnt supply metal blisters anymore to anyone... and the official word on this to the fans and to the stores is... absolute silence!
Way to go GW a new low on communication and a new high in frustating EVERYONE who supports them.
I dont have all the metals I would like for my collection and from the news I guess I never will... Good way to push me to buy metals from other companies
What I find interesting is that not a single Witch Hunter metal model has been "discontinued". I dont mean the Sisters of Battle models but rather Arco-Flagellants and Death Cult Assassins.
Sisters are getting plastics that much we can be certain of but arco, deathcult, sister repentia?
NAVARRO wrote:So... GW doesnt supply metal blisters anymore to anyone... and the official word on this to the fans and to the stores is... absolute silence!
Way to go GW a new low on communication and a new high in frustating EVERYONE who supports them.
And people call me overly cynical and 'unrealistic' when I point out the endless and repeated communication fails GW seems to throw themselves into with wild (and silent) abandon.
NAVARRO wrote:Good way to push me to buy metals from other companies
No kidding. I bought my first Privateer Press model the other day (that new Skorne guy with the huge blade/claws).
GW North America just finished their quarterly retail conference, this time in the Memphis HQ. When managers asked about the rumored change in casting materials, i.e., the discontinuation of pewter alloy, the response they got was basically this: look around at the tons of raw pewter alloy still sitting here waiting to be poured, there are no current plans to drop pewter alloy as a production material.
Remember, independent retailers have not been given a lot of detail here either. They've been advised they can't re-order a lot of (mostly metal) kits, but beyond that they also have not been advised of the long-term plan here. Supposedly there is some big announcement coming in mid-May at which time we'll all hopefully know a lot more.
Interesting news. I haven't played GW games in ages, but it's still weird to see so much being discontinued/changed to resin/etc. I hope they find a way to maybe make some of the kits cheaper. I was toying with the idea of getting back into orcs and goblins when the news of the orc boys repackaging hit - and there went that idea. I'd love it if the higher-up at GW found some business sense and a way to keep veteran players as well as just going after the tweens.
My guess is they're repackaging stuff, removing as many blisters as possible and moving to box sets or direct only for the crappy selling things. Retailers can still order direct only models, in the US anyway. They just don't get as good of a discount.
I wouldn't mind seeing blisters go for most things. Like squig hoppers for example... you get 2 in a blister, but you need 5 for a unit, so that means you need 6 blisters to start with. I'd rather they were in a small box of 5.
I really hope they don't move to resin, I don't wanna wear a gas mask when I work on my models :(
look around at the tons of raw pewter alloy still sitting here waiting to be poured, there are no current plans to drop pewter alloy as a production material.
Mmm. In their casting, both UK and US, they use over 500 tons of alloy a year (source - GW investor's guide). That's about 40 tons a month. They could actually have an awful lot 'lying about' and in fact not have more than a few months supply (and they're unlikely to hold too much advance stock of metal anyway as you don't want to store more than you need to have a decent reserve. In short 'look how much alloy we have lying about' is not equivalent to 'we'll be casting in pewter for years yet'.
Obviously we cannot be certain that metal is doomed, they could simply be changing their sales policy for other reasons.
That's a valid point and it's not like GW never conceals plans from their own employees, all big corporations do that. I'm really not sure what to think at this point, but I thought it was a fact worth reporting as a point of interest in this emerging mystery.
Yes, nothing can be certain -- except that GW always play things very close. I do think their relatively poor showing financially in the last couple of years is probably causing them to reevaluate their business model and whatever happens with metal, the way GW market and sell is going to undergo (possibly radical) overhaul.
Aye, the Specialist Games stuff worries me a little, will they even bother repackaging it, or will it just suffer a quiet death with the changeover to resin.
The change to resin, if it occurs, will be a disaster on all fronts for GW. They have NO IDEA how much it will be opposed and how quickly people will buy from other companies. The only win/win scenario is 100% plastics or something very close.
Well if I were a company like GW, looking at a previously highly successful but now rather stuttering business model with raw material costs rising and likely to rise further (true for both metal and plastic), and thinking long-term, I'd be actively seeking a material that will do the job and be cheap in ten years time.
I'd look at the customer base and see it's largely dominated by mid-term loyal customers (start in their early teens, quit when they leave school or university) with a minority of harder core long-term loyalists, who are not insignificant becaus etheir longevity as customers makes up in part for their small numbers.
I'd ideally want to keep both onside, but the frmer are a renewable resource -- so long as I keep the background stuff appealing to them and the models affordable to middle-class incomes (parents financing the hobby, or at the least allowing the working teen/student to spend a lot of earnings on hobby stuff).
I'd look at the range of games and immediately can all but the core of 40K, Fantasy and (possibly) LotR. This would free up resources and open the way to selling computer-game versions of Space Hulk, etc which would prove more popular generally and could feed people into the main hobby.
I'd drop metal pretty much as soon as reserves are used up, sell through quickly (hopefully sales fed by last minute buying panic) an dmove to an entirely plastic and resin/polymer range, with a long term view to dropping plastics too as soon as practical.
I'd keep prioduction US?UK based because costs in China and India are only going to be rising, whereas the US and UK are likely to see real drops in wages/standards of living over the next decade. It would also help to have quality control right under head office's nose -- it's always risky to outsource when changing materials.
I'd also be looking to target the rising middle classes in India and China (in a few years, and look to tailoring to meet that). As those markets expand, if they do, that would be the moment to consider opening production there.
They have NO IDEA how much it will be opposed and how quickly people will buy from other companies.
I beg to differ, I think GW have a very good idea of the potential problems.
It will be opposed by a relatively small proportion of their customer base, many of whom will be reconciled if more plastics are forthcoming in fairly short order
Skarboy wrote:The change to resin, if it occurs, will be a disaster on all fronts for GW. They have NO IDEA how much it will be opposed and how quickly people will buy from other companies. The only win/win scenario is 100% plastics or something very close.
I'd rather they change to resin with an open market than direct-only metals.
Considering the amount of problems FW has with warped models and so forth, I'm a bit surprised at this move. It's much easier to bend a bent metal arm than to use hot water and so on to bent a warped piece of resin. Not exactly friendly to those new to wargaming, you know, the target demographic of GW.
Not to mention that any modding that you want to do will require you to wear protective masks etc. They'll have to put a disclaimer on the kits just like back in the days of lead.
Skarboy wrote:The change to resin, if it occurs, will be a disaster on all fronts for GW. They have NO IDEA how much it will be opposed and how quickly people will buy from other companies. The only win/win scenario is 100% plastics or something very close.
I know. I can imagine it now....
Little Timmy: 'Daddy, I want the Space Marine sternguard box!'
Dad: 'All right Little Timmy, let me just take a loo- HOMG, it's made entirely out of resin! What are these fiends playing at!? Come on Little Timmy, we're going to the internet to get you into Battletech instead!'
*drags Little Timmy out*
No doubt the scene will play out in GW stores all across the world. Before you know it, within two months, GW's control over the miniatures market will be forever shattered, as they begin a swift descent into bankruptcy. A great wailing and a gnashing of teeth will be heard from Nottingham, as spectral disembodied management voices bemoan:
'Alas! If only we had listened to Skarboy and stayed with metal! Who could have predicted such a catastrophe would arise from simply making the same identical model out of a different material? If only it hadn't been for those pesky kids and their meddling dog, we would have gotten away with it too!'
But that was just the beginning. No-one had anticipated the scale to which it would be 'opposed', indeed, that opposition formed a new organisation called the Syndicate, a terrible mafia like gang which began to show up other miniatures retailers across the globe.
'We hear you've been selling toy soldiers made out of resin...' would be the last thing many an aspiring games designer would hear, shortly after establishing their first online webstore.
The chaos and anarchy only grew from there. The Syndicate progressed into eliminating the makers of custom resin bases shortly afterwards, and amassing enough political power to have resin and all other petroleum based products banned altogether. The ensuing chaos in the world economy from the fallout in the oil stocks and shares resulted in governments being overthrown, acts of mass genocide, and finally, the last World War, culminating in a catastrophic nuclear exchange later to be known as the 'Resin Wars' (as the quote was taken by a later post from Scarboy, 'Begun the Resin Wars have').
And all this could have been avoided if GW had stuck with metal.....
I don't know what is planned, but I continue to be doubtful of this resin rumor. A switch to resin casting would be very costly and I just don't see GW spending that kind of money to essentually rebuild their manufacturing infrastructure. The price of metal may be going up but any savings from resin would be negligible given the costs involved. Repackaging sounds more likely but that is just me speculating. Guess we wait and see.
agnosto wrote:Considering the amount of problems FW has with warped models and so forth, I'm a bit surprised at this move. It's much easier to bend a bent metal arm than to use hot water and so on to bent a warped piece of resin. Not exactly friendly to those new to wargaming, you know, the target demographic of GW.
...How is it "easier to bend a bent metal arm"(which requires everything to constantly be straightened and tested for integrity as you go along or the piece will just fall off at the slightest provocation) than it is to get some hot water and bend the warped piece of resin into shape, then dip it back into cold water to ensure it sets?
Not to mention that any modding that you want to do will require you to wear protective masks etc. They'll have to put a disclaimer on the kits just like back in the days of lead.
Not really. "Any modding that requires you to wear protective masks" with Forge World stuff is because you're doing HUGE amounts of sanding/sawing of resin to remove the pour blocks.
On single infantry, you don't have that issue. At best, if they mold the bases into the model, you have to snip the pour block off, which produces no dust.
I should have taken photos of my Titan Tech-Priest before I started working on him to illustrate this point though.
Now, if GW was moving towards resin conversion kits for vehicles...yeah, there'd likely be an issue.
It's not actually unlikely that GW have a technical solution that would overcome the resin issue -- like they might use a similar material instead. Also, I recall in the 70s and 80s, almost everything seemed to have bent weapons, palstic or metal and as someone new to wargaming then, it bothered me a little but not too much. And in fairness, It was GW as Citadel who pushed standards up in that era.
I don't think this is nearly the big deal that others do.
GW has made some resin stuff lately - possibly as a way of evaluating whether this is possible for other things. The barricades and 'orky' barricades are resin pieces. I bought both, and the quality was very good - no significant mold lines or flash, certainly nothing that couldn't be trimmed with a hobby knife. No warping either.
FW prices aren't high because resin is expensive, FW prices are high because the move less product. It takes more time to sculpt a really big model than it does to sculpt a smaller one, and if you're going to sell hundreds of them instead of tens-of-thousands of them, you need larger margins to cover that cost.
Shifting metal models to resin isn't going to cover much of the fixed costs that go into their pricing. It's only going to partially address variable costs - it won't change packaging, or shipping costs for example.
My expectation, if they shift to resin, is that the quality will remain high (this is something GW prides itself on, and I can only recall one product (those moonscape wrecks) in recent memory that didn't meet a sufficiently high quality standard), and that the price on blisters might come down a little, but not much. I doubt they'll discontinue anything, because with a catalog as large as they've got, they have to have a contingency plan that will allow them to make the change without a significant retooling cost.
Breotan wrote:I don't know what is planned, but I continue to be doubtful of this resin rumor. A switch to resin casting would be very costly and I just don't see GW spending that kind of money to essentially rebuild their manufacturing infrastructure. The price of metal may be going up but any savings from resin would be negligible given the costs involved. Repackaging sounds more likely but that is just me speculating. Guess we wait and see.
This is a good point. I don't think the switch to resin would happen overnight though. From what Mikhaila's saying, it does sound like they're in the "process" of retooling the manufacturing infrastructure to resin and in the meantime they'll just sell off what pewter models they have stockpiled.
I don't know about the rest of you, but if they're moving to resin... I'll over time be re-purchasing all of my metal models.
Even the prospect of getting certain models in resin makes them more appealing. I have put off buying a multitude of models because they were metal, no longer I hope.
Should this all be true (which I desperately hope that it is) I think it will be the greatest thing GW has done since 5th edition 40K.
Breotan wrote:I don't know what is planned, but I continue to be doubtful of this resin rumor. A switch to resin casting would be very costly and I just don't see GW spending that kind of money to essentially rebuild their manufacturing infrastructure. The price of metal may be going up but any savings from resin would be negligible given the costs involved. Repackaging sounds more likely but that is just me speculating. Guess we wait and see.
This is a good point. I don't think the switch to resin would happen overnight though. From what Mikhaila's saying, it does sound like they're in the "process" of retooling the manufacturing infrastructure to resin and in the meantime they'll just sell off what pewter models they have stockpiled.
They don't have to do much at all to switch to resin. All of the same machines and molds can be used.
Metal sets now discontinued per this list? The time of Manos: Hands Of Fate has arrived! All hail The Master and his man-servant Torgo of the big-thighs and leering gaze! It's a GW cataclysm! Just remember, "there is no way out of here".
But, seriously folks. The "this is the end of GW" posts in this thread are a little over the top. Whatever GW is doing with the metal sets I doubt it will spark a "revolution", "revolt" or the "end of GW". Hilarious.
Has it actually been confirmed that this materials changeover, if it indeed does happen, will be to Resin? Or was it just a suggestion which people gave taken and run with? Chinese whispers anyone?
Despite what many people would have you believe, and indeed want you to believe, GW are not stupid. They did not become the biggest producer of tabletop war-games and miniatures by being an irresponsible company that don't care what it's customers think.
There are still many possibilities which could explain what the announcement concerning blisters/metal models will be about. If it is a materials change, there is every chance it could be a move to all plastic or even a plastic/resin hybrid which other companies use. It makes me laugh that even if GW made the decision to move to resin only, people automatically assume that it would be the same resin that is used by Forge World. We all know the inherent problems which can present themselves when working with Forge World resin, which is why it has always been marketed as being for non mass produced specialist models which are aimed more towards the more experienced modeller/gamer.
That being said, how can anyone seriously think that GW would decide to change it's production to said resin without making substantial changes in order to alleviate some if not all of these problems? I do realise that if I'm wrong I'm going to look stupid, but I honestly can't see how a company which has been in business since the late 70's, growing year on year and which is the biggest in their field would make the monumentally stupid decision which the vast majority of people on this forum are already resigned to.
Seriously guys, just think about it for a minute. Have faith!
Kanluwen wrote:
On single infantry, you don't have that issue. At best, if they mold the bases into the model, you have to snip the pour block off, which produces no dust.
I should have taken photos of my Titan Tech-Priest before I started working on him to illustrate this point though.
Now, if GW was moving towards resin conversion kits for vehicles...yeah, there'd likely be an issue.
Goodbye pewter, all hail resin!
I don't have a great deal of experience with resin so I just know what those who do tell me. I'm a little concerned because I play Ogres in fantasy and some of the models are about the size of a land speeder. Make that completely out of resin and I know I'll find a way to feth it up.
As to bending metal; I have a scraplauncher and several pieces frequently get bent in transport as they stick out all over the place:
So, if they switch to resin on this monster (as it's currently all metal) the little bits will just break off instead of bending would be my assumption.
Kanluwen wrote:
On single infantry, you don't have that issue. At best, if they mold the bases into the model, you have to snip the pour block off, which produces no dust.
I should have taken photos of my Titan Tech-Priest before I started working on him to illustrate this point though.
Now, if GW was moving towards resin conversion kits for vehicles...yeah, there'd likely be an issue.
Goodbye pewter, all hail resin!
I don't have a great deal of experience with resin so I just know what those who do tell me. I'm a little concerned because I play Ogres in fantasy and some of the models are about the size of a land speeder. Make that completely out of resin and I know I'll find a way to feth it up.
Which models in particular are we talking about? Aside from the Scraplauncher, that is.
Pieces like Greasus and the other Ogre characters would be way better off in resin, imo. The thing to remember is that resin when cast as a 'solid' piece(like you'd see in single characters) with no hollow pockets is actually pretty damn strong.
It's no pewter, but it sure isn't as fragile as people like to make it out to be.
As to bending metal; I have a scraplauncher and several pieces frequently get bent in transport as they stick out all over the place:
So, if they switch to resin on this monster (as it's currently all metal) the little bits will just break off instead of bending would be my assumption.
I don't think they'll 'switch to resin' on that sized piece. I mean, we've heard some rumblings that Ogres are in the works and the Scraplauncher is a big candidate(in my opinion at least) for the plastic treatment.
oni wrote:I don't know about the rest of you, but if they're moving to resin... I'll over time be re-purchasing all of my metal models.
Even the prospect of getting certain models in resin makes them more appealing. I have put off buying a multitude of models because they were metal, no longer I hope.
I'm of the opposite mind- they make models from metal to resnin and I wont be buying models,I'll have to just make due with what I have.
I still don't understand how moving to resin from metal could possibly be cheaper. You spin cast resin and then you have to wait for the resin to set up in the molds (best case several minutes). You spin cast metal you just have to wait for the metal to cool off enough to solidify (worst case several seconds). Their throughput is going to drop through the floor. (unless they completely buy a whole new line for production with many times the tooling and an easy way to switch them out). Everyone is acting as if resin should be cheaper... I just don't get it.
injection molded plastics are cheap and easy and you can just toss scrap, bad casts and recycled plastic back in the pot and recast. so my guess is plastic
The models will have to be redesigned for injection molded plastic though. And you will also lose detail. Given the time frame they do everything else in it doesn't seem realistic to change all these models over at once.
This is kind of a mixed bag for me. I dislike the spindly metal arms and weapons on some of the models (looking at you old Phoenix Guard) but i haven't had much luck with resin. I picked up the Keeper of Secrets from Forge World a few years back and all the thin hair bits and claws constantly worried me. When that stuff breaks it's not repairable for someone who can't sculpt a round ball out of play dough like me. I hope whatever resin they end up using doesn't shatter like dry dirt when it breaks.
Brotherjanus wrote:When that stuff breaks it's not repairable for someone who can't sculpt a round ball out of play dough like me. I hope whatever resin they end up using doesn't shatter like dry dirt when it breaks.
?
Resin tends to break clean(unlike Plastic and Metal), meaning that what broke off will line up exactly with where it broke from with only a small crack being left to tell it broke at all.
its not about better models. its about saving money. metal is expensive. resin is toxic and hard to mix and handle. plastic is the way to go. just heat, inject, pop it out. They can be mass produced very fast, which reduces labour costs. lighter to reduce shipping cost. less waste to reduce material cost. less toxic materials to reduce storage and handling costs. all round its cheaper. will we see a drop in price, no, this is an oportunity for them to get bigger profits, which is in the end, what is driving this switch, viva capitalism.
OK noob modeller question coming up: What exactly is so bad about resin? I never worked with the stuff before, so I'm curious as to why this shift will be a big deal.
The only problem is that plastic can't hold detail as well as resin or metal, and while metal is a female dog to work with, I must admit some of my favourite models are metal just because of the higher level of detail.
Also Platuanth has it right on the money. My Warhound has a hip joint that practically broke in half during assembly. A thick layer of resin cement to hold it together, and the models been fine ever since.
Resin = hard to work with for new gamers so thats no bueno
If looking at what GW has done in the past the trend has been almost unanimously to plastic. Remember the old LRC model? now its plastic. What about the Fire Prism? plastic. Daemon Prince = Plastic. I could go on but you get the idea. For those nay-sayers that say plastic will ruin the detail I point everyone to the new death company box that I have been making, these models are highly detailed and I don't see how anyone could notice a difference. (has any metal to plastic conversion not been better than it was before?)
Plastic serves two purposes:
1) Its cheap, GW could make more money selling plastic at the same prices (if only because they are buying plastic and not metal)
2) Its EASY. plastic is so much easier to work with than metal. Its easier for new gamers to assemble, its easier for veterans to model.
There would need to be new molds for each metal box BUT they have all the materials and infrastructure to do this. I think resin would be a ball from left field. If its resin I will manage however, but if it is plastic I would love to exchange some of my pesky metal models when they are released. I really dislike pinning and would rather it fall by the wayside as something we did back in the day.
If you wind up making a big mess of resin, eg. you wind up sanding a whole lot or whathaveyou then the dust is toxic to breathe. Obviously not a huge concern for most gamers out there BUT there is gonna be that stupid 12 year old kid who winds up getting sick. Then it goes on the news and its a PR nightmare. GW is smart enough to realize that there are enough stupid people out there that to avoid litigation (and the mess that follows) they need to be careful with the material they pick.
asimo77 wrote:What exactly is different about working with resin? I can't imagine much of a deviation from files and some sort of glue.
Basically: resin is more fragile, but holds detail better than metal/plastic.
You have to be very, very careful when doing the 'basics' and removing mold-lines, cast points, etc.
In many cases, you'll use the exact same kind of glue as you would for metal models, the exact same knives to clean moldlines, yadda yadda yadda.
The only real difference is that if you do a large amount of filing/sanding/sawing(which you will do on FW's larger kits): the dust kicked up is a carcinogen.
Wetting your file/sandpaper/hacksaw and working outside will offset that, but it doesn't hurt to wear a dust mask and glasses just so the stuff doesn't get in your eyes or nose/mouth.
Now, working indoors with a ventilated setting? Yeah. You'll want a dust mask and glasses. Especially if you're using a Dremel to sand the stuff down.
But then again, you're supposed to wear a mask when airbrushing if you read the warning labels on Vallejo's thinners.
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Grey Knight Luke wrote:If you wind up making a big mess of resin, eg. you wind up sanding a whole lot or whathaveyou then the dust is toxic to breathe. Obviously not a huge concern for most gamers out there BUT there is gonna be that stupid 12 year old kid who winds up getting sick. Then it goes on the news and its a PR nightmare. GW is smart enough to realize that there are enough stupid people out there that to avoid litigation (and the mess that follows) they need to be careful with the material they pick.
And they've already got warnings on everything.
The baggies that FW stuff come in have warning labels on them, the FW site has a warning in their "Working with Resin" FAQ, and more besides.
Thanks for the info. Hmmm doesn't sound so bad, I'm already super careful and meticulous. The only thing it seems I would have to do is perhaps get some more tools like a saw and dremel, and I guess a mask just in case.
First...awesome avatar pic, where is it from? Now a slight correction, that, to me is huuuuge.
Kanluwen wrote:
Basically: resin is more fragile, but holds detail better than metal/plastic.
I am sorry, but resin being fragile is true, but it does not hold better detail then plastic or metal. Plastic you can get a better amount of detail with then resin. The only problem with it is the cost. If you spend the money to have the molds properly tooled up, and in some cases polished, you can have a mold that will turn out a far superior product then anything even FW puts out. It all just boils down to the cost, and if a company wants to spend the money on it.
First...awesome avatar pic, where is it from? Now a slight correction, that, to me is huuuuge.
From the "Black Sepulchre" book for the Dark Heresy RPG.
Kanluwen wrote:
Basically: resin is more fragile, but holds detail better than metal/plastic.
I am sorry, but resin being fragile is true, but it does not hold better detail then plastic or metal. Plastic you can get a better amount of detail with then resin. The only problem with it is the cost. If you spend the money to have the molds properly tooled up, and in some cases polished, you can have a mold that will turn out a far superior product then anything even FW puts out. It all just boils down to the cost, and if a company wants to spend the money on it.
We'll have to agree to disagree here, because I've seen resin stuff that blows away the detail you'll see on plastic or metal.
Unless of course by "metal" you're counting photoetched pieces.
And there's been rumblings of a 'major change' for awhile, not least of which is the fact that they cut back on metal models in terms of how they're done. You get a 'splash release' where they'll be in shops, and then after awhile you'll see them no longer regularly stocked.
considering some the things being "discontinued" are metal models released this current month I am going to just say this rumor is ridiculous without any support.
I do not even believe many items on the discontinued list to be factual. Some are believable as possible soon to be upgraded models.
I also sincerely doubt GW is moving to resin. Resin molds for some reason are more prone to warping and casting defects than plastic or metal. It is easier [cheaper] to get higher detailed resin molds but given that they get used up faster in the end you are not saving money.
Resin also is not as friendly a product to work with as plastic or metal. Much of GWs target market is below the age of 18 and products have to conform to child safety laws. They would have to change the minimum age range of all the models being released as resin to I believe 14+ from 12+, which also requires a larger insurance policy the company must have to license such products to protect themselves financially from legal action should such arise.
I am not saying its bollocks, just I sincerely doubt the validity of this rumor.
Let's start a new rumor that will make everyone think happy thoughts.. how about something like.. "this big announcement in may is to announce the fantasy flight games is taking over the entire specialist range!" or "Battlefoam is taking over production of all official GW carrying cases" or better yet "Squats are back, and now they're pissed!"
dauthiatull wrote:injection molded plastics are cheap and easy and you can just toss scrap, bad casts and recycled plastic back in the pot and recast. so my guess is plastic
This. Plastic mold design with 3D scanning and CNC equipment today is extremely flexible, cheap and fast. Not to mention the fast turnaround on an insert mold where you don't have to cut large quantities of steel, just the mold cavities themselves is an even faster solution. In this case the entire mold isn't created, only a relatively small portion of the mold. For a single sprue character, probably a 8" x 6" x 3" piece of steel for the core and the cavity of the mold...if that. The mold itself is a modular base that contains all of the springs, ejector plates, cooling channels, etc. There's some time in changing the insert and the ejector plates outs for different spues, but it's minimal when you're looking at running production on a particular tool for a day to a week. The cost as someone else mentioned is the finish of the mold tool itself, how much time is spent polishing the mold.
Other advantages to plastics are the ability to mold relative families of parts. The cost of the plastic is fairly insignificant compared to the IP and development cost. For instance, if you're releasing a new Space Marine Codex you could cut a tool (mold) with multiple characters in the die. Run production and cut the sprues for individual packaging. If you don't sell as many of a character in that family mold, there's not a lot lost. The material can be reground, or the tool itself could have a blank insert placed in the tool for the next production run.
It would also make sense to cut a sprue for a character with multiple configurations of weapons, arms, etc. and provide the customer with more options. Most likely the number one reason people are fond of the current plastic sprues. A character today of poured metal is a solid chunk of pewter with little in the way of configuration options.
I don't see why they would bother with resin or metal at this point. The technology is available to design and manufacture high quality minuratures from plastic. I haven't seen a case of a metal to plastic where the plastic wasn't far superior to the metal equivalent. The Space Marine Dreadnought is a perfect example. If my two metal Dreads weren't painted, I would scrap them or sell them to one of the metal model fanatics here. Fact is, the plastic version of the Dreadnought is cleaner, no mismatched components that require heavy manipulation where parts come together. The sprue provided every variant that I could configure the dreadnought in. And finally, plastic is extremely easy to drill for magnets allowing me to magnetize my weapon variants. If you handed me the Metal Dreadnought an said it was old stock and I could have it for free, or offered to sell me the plastic one at retail price, I would hand you my credit card.
I would be very suprised to see a company like Games Workshop stick with low volume production methods such as rubber molds and resin / metal.
blaktoof wrote:considering some the things being "discontinued" are metal models released this current month I am going to just say this rumor is ridiculous without any support.
I do not even believe many items on the discontinued list to be factual. Some are believable as possible soon to be upgraded models.
I also sincerely doubt GW is moving to resin. Resin molds for some reason are more prone to warping and casting defects than plastic or metal. It is easier [cheaper] to get higher detailed resin molds but given that they get used up faster in the end you are not saving money.
Resin also is not as friendly a product to work with as plastic or metal. Much of GWs target market is below the age of 18 and products have to conform to child safety laws. They would have to change the minimum age range of all the models being released as resin to I believe 14+ from 12+, which also requires a larger insurance policy the company must have to license such products to protect themselves financially from legal action should such arise.
I am not saying its bollocks, just I sincerely doubt the validity of this rumor.
Necros wrote:Let's start a new rumor that will make everyone think happy thoughts.. how about something like.. "this big announcement in may is to announce the fantasy flight games is taking over the entire specialist range!" or "Battlefoam is taking over production of all official GW carrying cases" or better yet "Squats are back, and now they're pissed!"
Then it would FINALLY BE an awsome game with peoples thats do give a %?&@¢ about their customer base! I would support this 200%.
I'm following this "resin rumor" since some time now and i simply can't imagine that a company that still want to stay in business would turn to resin with all the safety concern that would arise!
Don't forget that a huge % a players (50% or eve more maybe!) are week-end warrior under 15 yo or so! I can't see why a serious company with "staying in business" as one of their main objective would throw itself in with resin and the garantied issues.
The problem is not only about the moms and dads concerns but with adult also! Like thousands i don't have a "garage" or a "backyard shed" as a hobby hideout... i'm working in my office wich is also my wife's office so i don't feel comfortable with having resin dust all over the place. Plus i'm not sure i would enjoy some sunday morning painting with a dust mask on for 2-3 hours!
If GW is serious about business they will simply turn their production 100% to plastic!
Lord_Tyrant wrote:I'm following this "resin rumor" since some time now and i simply can't imagine that a company that still want to stay in business would turn to resin with all the safety concern that would arise!
Don't forget that a huge % a players (50% or eve more maybe!) are week-end warrior under 15 yo or so! I can't see why a serious company with "staying in business" as one of their main objective would throw itself in with resin and the guaranteed issues.
And "don't forget" that a huge percentage of the models being supposedly converted to resin are going to be single piece models that, with clever casting, can be done in such a way as to not require filing or sanding(where the 'safety concerns' arise).
The problem is not only about the moms and dads concerns but with adult also! Like thousands i don't have a "garage" or a "backyard shed" as a hobby hideout... i'm working in my office which is also my wife's office so i don't feel comfortable with having resin dust all over the place. Plus i'm not sure i would enjoy some sunday morning painting with a dust mask on for 2-3 hours!
This alone tells me you have no clue what the "safety concerns" of resin are.
You don't need to wear a dust mask just for handling resin models. You don't see FW passing out dust masks at their booth when people are just walking by, do you?
You also don't need to 'go into a garage or a backyard shed' to prep a resin model. Wetting the model and file down and working it in a big bowl filled with water will also serve the same purpose as a dust mask or ventilated workspace.
If GW is serious about business they will simply turn their production 100% to plastic!
Plastic's a choking hazard. And heaven forbid a child use a lighter to try to battle damage his model!
See? I can play the overreacting, ill-informed masses too!
I gladly accept resin minis, if it makes my hive tyrant not weigh a ton then I am happy. And for all those flying the "toxic chemical" flag, I hope you realise, that the spray primers, and sealers, have toxic vapours, and IF you use that terrible excuse for an airbrush GW sells with the canned air that they sell, a young person risks inhaling the same fumes because the hose does not seal. The fumes from said aerosol products can cause instant death.
btemple0 wrote:I gladly accept resin minis, if it makes my hive tyrant not weigh a ton then I am happy. And for all those flying the "toxic chemical" flag, I hope you realise, that the spray primers, and sealers, have toxic vapours, and IF you use that terrible excuse for an airbrush GW sells with the canned air that they sell, a young person risks inhaling the same fumes because the hose does not seal. The fumes from said aerosol products can cause instant death.
So, metal prices are going up, eh? Stockists buy these metal minis at 30+% discount and often give us a good discount, too. By making these minis Direct Only (cutting out discounters in the process), GW effectively give themselves an almost 50% pay rise on metal minis (30% being almost half the 70% they were getting). Smells like a stealth price increase to me. Why would they need to spend a cent changing to resin with that kind of increase in sales margin?
canute wrote:Didn't GW do this 3 or 4 years ago and all they did was change the codes on most of the product, repackage some of it and raise the price?
Sorry guys, but I feel this may be the correct answer. There is no way they would discontinue a list that big in one go, a change to resin would have to be a phased activity, GW has far too many customers to make a massive change like that.
As for Direct Only, I can see that happening, since the evil accountants moved in GW has gone from money-grabbing scheme to money-grabbing scheme and this would just be another one...
Lunchb0x wrote:I am sorry, but resin being fragile is true, but it does not hold better detail then plastic or metal. Plastic you can get a better amount of detail with then resin. The only problem with it is the cost. If you spend the money to have the molds properly tooled up, and in some cases polished, you can have a mold that will turn out a far superior product then anything even FW puts out. It all just boils down to the cost, and if a company wants to spend the money on it.
The quality of many resin kits is just mindblowing, you can't achieve the same level of intricate detail with plastic or the undercut. Many of the best resin figures are in military ranges and they are a world apart from plastic kits. Plastic is very good but when you buy good resin you get a product that can't be equalled.
First...awesome avatar pic, where is it from? Now a slight correction, that, to me is huuuuge.
From the "Black Sepulchre" book for the Dark Heresy RPG.
Kanluwen wrote:
Basically: resin is more fragile, but holds detail better than metal/plastic.
I am sorry, but resin being fragile is true, but it does not hold better detail then plastic or metal. Plastic you can get a better amount of detail with then resin. The only problem with it is the cost. If you spend the money to have the molds properly tooled up, and in some cases polished, you can have a mold that will turn out a far superior product then anything even FW puts out. It all just boils down to the cost, and if a company wants to spend the money on it.
We'll have to agree to disagree here, because I've seen resin stuff that blows away the detail you'll see on plastic or metal.
Unless of course by "metal" you're counting photoetched pieces.
First : Thank you for the info on the pic .
Second : No , I am not counting Metal = photo etched. The reason why you dont see much with fantastic detail in plastic or pewter is due to the cost of tooling. Most companies dont want to pay the added cost to really get the fine detail out of them vs. the cost for detail as you would need for resin.
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Howard A Treesong wrote:
Lunchb0x wrote:I am sorry, but resin being fragile is true, but it does not hold better detail then plastic or metal. Plastic you can get a better amount of detail with then resin. The only problem with it is the cost. If you spend the money to have the molds properly tooled up, and in some cases polished, you can have a mold that will turn out a far superior product then anything even FW puts out. It all just boils down to the cost, and if a company wants to spend the money on it.
The quality of many resin kits is just mindblowing, you can't achieve the same level of intricate detail with plastic or the undercut. Many of the best resin figures are in military ranges and they are a world apart from plastic kits. Plastic is very good but when you buy good resin you get a product that can't be equalled.
Are the companies that make the great resin military pieces large companies? Can they afford the thousands of dollars in tool and die to make one model, that may sell a couple hundred units? No they arent, so they go with the lower cost alternative which is resin. I can pay 10k for a plastic mold that will have equal amount of detail as resin, or I can opt to go the less expensive route and make a resin mold for about 500 and churn out enough pieces to make a profit. AGain, this all boils down to the cost, does the customer ( model company ) want to pay the cost to have fine detail plastic injection molds, or resin molds.
A switch to resin casts from china maybe? That would help to explain how it could possibly be a cost savings.
Edit: Dude you can't get equal detail out of plastic injection molding as you can resin. The tooling prohibits it.
Metal and resin can be cast in the same tools. but resin will flow better than metal (and more importantly for longer) so it will be able to pick up more intricate detailing. Resin is the most expensive to do on a per piece basis but has the least amount of capital involved. Metal is in the middle and plastic injection is the highest capital investment but the lowest piece part price. (at least it should be, this is the part I don't understand, could metal prices be so high that it outweighs the increased cycle time of resin? Doesn't seem likely to me)
as for detailing it also follows the same trend, resin has the highest detail metal in the middle and plastic the least. I agree with you that plastic is capable of picking up an equal amount of detail as resin, but the way the tooling works prohibits you from practically achieving the same amount of detail.
Honestly, I wouldn't mind plastic, or resin, or metal. Im used to all of them, I know how to work with all of them. The only thing i really care about is the price. They all have thier ups and downs, but they all at least look decent! As long as the price stays where it is or goes down, I will be happy.
oni wrote:They have those generic white boxes that they sell the direct only stuff in. I could absolutely see all metal going to GW direct only.
Why doesn't GW shut down all the their stores and sell everything direct only? Why even use independent retailers to market and sell their product? Every reason you give why they can't do either is the same reason why they can't move their entire metal range to direct only permanently.
In this case the antidotal and circumstantial evidence is overwhelmingly supporting a scenario where GW is temporality withdrawing items or warning retailers of limited stock on hand due a product conversion of some kind, be it packaging or material used in manufacturing. Also, what better way to draw down the stock of metal minis throughout the chain than to artificially inflate the sense of scarcity which is obviously at work already given the number of posts I have seen where individuals are indicating that they plan to “hurry up” and buy the metal minis before they are gone.
GW doesn't shut the shops because they are its principal marketing tool.
Tabletop wargaming is an aspirational and experiential hobby. Newcomers have to be shown how super a painted army and terrain looks, so they want to make one, and they have to be involved in a game to experience the excitement. This can only happen over the table top.
Outside the HHHobby, these things happen through the agency of veterans, friends and clubs. But also outside the HHHobby, it becomes clear that there is a huge and diverse tabletop hobby completely independent of GW and in many cases superior in terms of variety, and quality of models, rules, fluff, and price.
GW must recruit only through their own shops, in order to preserve the illusion that GW is the best and only game in town.
I just got an email from the Owner of my FLGS (a friend of mine) who told me none of my order I put in today could be processed because it is being *rebranded* Those are words out of the mouth of the biggest supplier in Canada.
My FLGS also does Direct order stuff through the store and is also not able to get a hold of any of the direct order items either.....
Either plastic or resin wouldn't bother me... I just want to be able to buy the damn stuff lol.
One this I did notice last night tho was that GW's prices on their web site for all their pewter range seem to have dropped slightly.... unless of course I'm crazy and seeing things..
The order I made to GWUK had 'discounted' next to everything I ordered that was metal. That might have been the reduction of VAT for non-UK customers though. Not 100% certain.
1) We all know the general age customer GW targets.
2) We all know resin is more hazardous than Plastic or Metal
3) I can see it now , GW getting sued for not issuing protective gears / masks to customers that worked on their project in the GW store
or
parents seeing such gears says "no to warhammer " to Timmy because its too dangerous to him.
I would say no , GW isnt switching metal to resin. However , its not impossible for some future kits to be resin ( but not as purpose to replace metal as manufacturing material )
LunaHound wrote:1) We all know the general age customer GW targets.
Actually, we don't. You know why?
They don't target a "general age". They target a "general personality" which tends to act like that age.
2) We all know resin is more hazardous than Plastic or Metal
Plastic is just as harmful as resin if you don't read the safety list. People are constantly talking about how they're "setting their painted models on fire" to add weathering--which is far more harmful to you than sanding an infantry model with no mask on.
3) I can see it now , GW getting sued for not issuing protective gear / masks to customers that worked on their project in the GW store
Anyone who works on a model in a shop is running a risk to GW and their own lives. Knives, clippers that can break under tension and embed a length of steel spring in a jugular, etc.
It doesn't happen, but it could.
You've got to understand that there's multiple ways that resin can be cast.
The way that FW does it is one of the most barebones ways possible when it comes to how much the customer ends up doing afterwards. Many companies will remove the pour blocks, etc themselves--but that requires a huge set up that FW doesn't have.
Those pour blocks are the biggest offender for the "dust" kicked up and mentioned by myself and others. You're going to spend a fair amount of time sawing through that on the majority of FW models(which are large vehicle or monster kits with many bulky pieces), which generates a lot of dust.
But if you compare that to the smaller stuff such as the Krieg or Elysian models--you're not going to be doing much, if any, sanding or filing. Many of the parts can be removed with simple clippers and/or a knife blade while exercising some care.
or
parents seeing such gears says "no to warhammer " to Timmy because its too dangerous to him.
Were the Ork Barricade or Citadel basing kits "too dangerous" to Theoretical Timmy?
Because those are resin. The Helm's Deep Wall set for LOTR was resin. It wasn't "dangerous to Theoretical Timmy" either.
LunaHound wrote:Way to add the extreme case of "lighting plastic on fire" when we are comparing how we "normally" work with plastic vs resin.
Sounds like a desperate attempt to even the 2 , but hey thats your opinion.
It's really not. You don't need to actually have a "flaming model" for it to be harmful.
Even just a few seconds of exposure to melting plastic while you're not wearing a respirator/dust mask or operating in a well-ventilated area (like you should be when airbrushing, priming, using cyanoacrylate, Squadron Filler or even Testor's plastic cement that isn't clearly labeled "Non-Toxic" as they all have carcinogenic fumes like resin dust does) is a potential health hazard.
And with how often people are asking "can I set my model on fire" in P&M--I don't think it's really an "extreme case" at all.
Given the recommended age for plastic models is 12 and resin is 14 I think it's fair to say that overall resin is more of a health risk than metal or plastic minis and anyone claiming they are equal in health risk is either not being honest, misinformed, or skewing the facts.
blaktoof wrote:Given the recommended age for plastic models is 12 and resin is 14 I think it's fair to say that overall resin is more of a health risk than metal or plastic minis and anyone claiming they are equal in health risk is either not being honest, misinformed, or skewing the facts.
The point has basically flown over your head, Blaktoof.
Anything can be a health risk if you don't properly prepare for it.
As has been detailed before, resin can be done in such a way that even Theoretical Timmy can work with it and not be subject to any kind of "health risk".
Well the child safety agencies in the us and uk say resin is more of a health risk....
Yes it can be done in such a way to be safe, but it requires geneally more precautions than using non toxic glue with plastics or metals.
The point did not pass over my head.
It has been deemed by two of the major countries by government agencies using scientific facts that resin is not as safe as plastics, which is the point I was making.
Can resin be safe to work with? Yes.
Claiming anything can be s health risk if used improperly is true but not rally a valid statement as it's not really comparing the general common assembly of the two different materials. This common general assembly ; cleaning, filing, gluing has been deemed to be less dangerous regarding plastics and metals than resin
Kanluwen wrote:It's really not. You don't need to actually have a "flaming model" for it to be harmful. Even just a few seconds of exposure to melting plastic while you're not wearing a respirator/dust mask or operating in a well-ventilated area (like you should be when airbrushing, priming, using cyanoacrylate, Squadron Filler or even Testor's plastic cement that isn't clearly labeled "Non-Toxic" as they all have carcinogenic fumes like resin dust does) is a potential health hazard.
The point is that you compared setting stuff on fire to sanding your models.
If your point is seriously "Hey, at least it's not setting stuff on fire in an enclosed space!" that's not really saying much.
Kanluwen wrote:It's really not. You don't need to actually have a "flaming model" for it to be harmful.
Even just a few seconds of exposure to melting plastic while you're not wearing a respirator/dust mask or operating in a well-ventilated area (like you should be when airbrushing, priming, using cyanoacrylate, Squadron Filler or even Testor's plastic cement that isn't clearly labeled "Non-Toxic" as they all have carcinogenic fumes like resin dust does) is a potential health hazard.
The point is that you compared setting stuff on fire to sanding your models.
Notice what I put in parentheses. That stuff is all far more harmful to you than forgetting to wear a mask once when sanding some resin.
The reason they suggest protection working on FW stuff is that most of the kits they sell are big with big attachment points that need to be sanded/sawed through.
And if people don't want to wear masks--just work with the stuff submerged in water. No dust produced, at all.
There's ways to negate that whole "dust" thing, if people would actually take the time to do some research.
If your point is seriously "Hey, at least it's not setting stuff on fire in an enclosed space!" that's not really saying much.
It doesn't even have to be "in an enclosed space". Burning or melting plastic, period, is a silly thing to do. It's far more hazardous to your health than resin will ever be.
Blaktoof wrote:Well the child safety agencies in the us and uk say resin is more of a health risk....
They also say Tic Tacs are a choking hazard. And that Doritos can tear a hole open in your windpipe. Heck, weathering powders are safety hazards too.
Yes it can be done in such a way to be safe, but it requires generally more precautions than using non toxic glue with plastics or metals.
The reason resin, at least in Forge World's case, requires "more precautions" is a very simple one, which I've emphasized time and time again.
The way that their models and the models themselves are done in such a way that it assumes that the person working on it is an experienced modeler who's worked with resin before and knows what they are doing.
The baggies that FW stuff comes in and the instructions(laughably calling them this btw) they include with the kit both in no uncertain terms stress that you must take proper safety precautions when working on the stuff.
The point did not pass over my head.
It has been deemed by two of the major countries by government agencies using scientific facts that resin is not as safe as plastics, which is the point I was making.
Can resin be safe to work with? Yes.
Claiming anything can be s health risk if used improperly is true but not really a valid statement as it's not really comparing the general common assembly of the two different materials.
Anything can be a health risk if used improperly or being done with no knowledge of it.
Driving a car is a health risk.
Eating food is a health risk.
Drinking a drink with ice is a health risk.
I've worked with resin for almost a decade, since I was 13 years old.
I did my research before I started doing it. There's no reason, whatsoever, that an adult or other people in that age bracket cannot do the same thing.
This common general assembly ; cleaning, filing, gluing has been deemed to be less dangerous regarding plastics and metals than resin
Which is a factual truth
What glue are you using? How did you clean the model? What plastic are you working with? What metals are you working with?
These things all affect the "danger" factor.
Well going Direct Only isn't the worst thing that could happen. After some discussion at the FLGS with one of the staff, we agreed it wouldn't actually save that much shelf space at all, given blisters are diminuitive compared to plastic kits, and that small rack space they occupy couldn't be utilized for much more than blisters themselves.
Kanluwen wrote:It doesn't even have to be "in an enclosed space". Burning or melting plastic, period, is a silly thing to do. It's far more hazardous to your health than resin will ever be.
Did you completely miss the point on purpose or did it just happen to slip by you when you were making your 15,000th half-page multi-multiquote monument to chewing up screen real estate?
Kanluwen wrote:It doesn't even have to be "in an enclosed space". Burning or melting plastic, period, is a silly thing to do. It's far more hazardous to your health than resin will ever be.
Did you completely miss the point on purpose or did it just happen to slip by you when you were making your 15,000th half-page multi-multiquote monument to chewing up screen real estate?
No, I ignored your point because it was pretty much a non-issue.
I didn't say anything about "setting fire to plastic in an enclosed space". I simply said that burning or melting plastic is just as hazardous to your health as resin dust is.
I'll also point out that you ignored my parenthetical list of things that are, just like burning/melting plastic and resin dust, hazardous to your health and chock full of carcinogens.
Kanluwen wrote:I didn't say anything about "setting fire to plastic in an enclosed space"
Kanluwen wrote:Even just a few seconds of exposure to melting plastic while you're not wearing a respirator/dust mask or operating in a well-ventilated area
Emphasis mine. I shouldn't *have* to provide emphasis, but hey, I'm not the one that forgot about something I just typed.
Look, I understand you usually embody the "XTREEEEEEEEEEME DEVILS ADVOCATE!!!!!!" position but seriously...several people have posited that resin has a history of being more dangerous than the inert metal that GW's minis are currently made out of, and one of your comebacks was "Eating food is dangerous too!" - at some point you start to occupy such a bizarre extreme end of the spectrum that whatever valid point you might be trying to make (presumably that if you handle forgeworld's particular mix of resin well it's not dangerous, a task that, whether you like admit it or not, has a higher threshold for competent performance) is completely lost in the white noise you generate.
Kanluwen wrote:I didn't say anything about "setting fire to plastic in an enclosed space"
Kanluwen wrote:Even just a few seconds of exposure to melting plastic while you're not wearing a respirator/dust mask or operating in a well-ventilated area
Aw, look. He's trying to play "mistaken intent".
"Not operating in a well-ventilated area" can mean anything. You can be inside of the biggest room in the world with a fan running and it can be "improperly ventilated" for something like melting plastic.
Hmm, this seems demoralizing but I will continue to hope for the best.
I also just ran out an bought a bunch of metal kits so the scare tactic seems to be working
It also seems that many people here have the wrong conception when it comes to working with resin, many people wear a dust mask and wet files/saws, I built a resin vehicle from FW recently and I simply sawed off a couple of big pieces of flash with a fine saw in a well ventilated room, there was some dust but it was easily cleaned up with a vacuum. Dust is an issue on larger models but as long as you aren't cutting it into fine lines and snorting it off your hobby table you will be fine.
Kanluwen wrote:I didn't say anything about "setting fire to plastic in an enclosed space"
Kanluwen wrote:Even just a few seconds of exposure to melting plastic while you're not wearing a respirator/dust mask or operating in a well-ventilated area
Aw, look. He's trying to play "mistaken intent".
"Not operating in a well-ventilated area" can mean anything. You can be inside of the biggest room in the world with a fan running and it can be "improperly ventilated" for something like melting plastic.
Try harder.
So now your point has gone from 'resin is safe because hamburgers are dangerous' to 'resin is safe because big spaces can be improperly ventilated too"?
I would address the whole "internet tough guy on a forum about plastic toy men" thing but I'll just assume for the sake of goodwill that it was a momentary lapse on your part, and you aren't trying to actually come across as a thug attempting to save us from the dangers of cancer-causing french fries and aircraft hangars that don't have enough ceiling fans in them.
So I'm a little confused as to what this means (I'm kind of new to games workshops games). Does this mean that a whole ton of models will all of a sudden not be able to be purchased anywhere, or they are simply replacing the metal models with resin? Or do we not know? Sorry if this is a stupid question :/
mazik765 wrote:So I'm a little confused as to what this means (I'm kind of new to games workshops games). Does this mean that a whole ton of models will all of a sudden not be able to be purchased anywhere, or they are simply replacing the metal models with resin? Or do we not know? Sorry if this is a stupid question :/
Short answer?
We don't actually know.
But it looks like they're moving towards it.
It doesn't mean that you won't be able to buy a ton of models suddenly out of the blue. What we're looking at is likely a 'selldown' where they're trying to get rid of the excess stock.
Kanluwen wrote:No, my point is and always has been "If you don't do things correctly anything is unsafe".
People are saying "Driving drunk is more dangerous than just driving" and you're saying "Well yeah anything can be dangerous (so let's drive drunk!)" which goes back to my original post (the one you said you ignored, I'll repost the relevant bit for you) -
MikeMcSomething wrote:that's not really saying much.
I'm with the "GW will probably use a better(safer and closer to plastic) resin mix and adopt better quality control measures than Forgeworld" crowd. I just don't think saying "Well applejuice can give you cancer too!" is really helping things along. On some level I'm sure you agree with that.
MikeMcSomething wrote:I'm with the "GW will probably use a better(safer and closer to plastic) resin mix and adopt better quality control measures than Forgeworld" crowd.
It's likely going to be the same mix as Privateer.
I just don't think saying "Well applejuice can give you cancer too!" is really helping things along. On some level I'm sure you agree with that.
Oh no doubt. I was just using it as an example of how things used in certain circumstances, and furthermore used improperly, can lead to hazardous results.
I miss the days when I could walk into a FLGS and find almost everything I needed or wanted. And when I could order the bitZ I needed from GW... without having to buy a whole kit.
For me this is frustrating, but nowhere near as much of one as when those two abilities went extinct.
JoeyHeadwounds wrote:I miss the days when I could walk into a FLGS and find almost everything I needed or wanted. And when I could order the bitZ I needed from GW... without having to buy a whole kit.
For me this is frustrating, but nowhere near as much of one as when those two abilities went extinct.
Heh, you're frustrated?)
Try being the guy who's living depends on a supply of stuff to sell. That list of stuff going away cripples a stores ability to sell many armies. It better come back fast in some format.
Kanluwen wrote:No, my point is and always has been
"If you don't do things correctly anything is unsafe".
Go drink water, lots and lots of water. Go drink water correctly, over and over, for a few hours. Please.
Go walk correctly. Go walk correctly for hours and hours. And then come back when you can offer a response to a post without willfully disregarding the point behind it
Also, Kan is right. People seem to be confusing the fact that resin comes in different quality than that which is offered by FW. If GW does switch to resin, and I'm not convinced they are, they will most certainly have higher quality than FW. I've built plenty of FW models and the safety issue is minute, even just taking the most basic precautions. It's really no different than handling a hobby knife incorrectly, except you won't see the effects of resin dust inhalation immediately.
Lastly, the sky is falling. GW is finished. Everyone freak out and panic.
@mikhaila- Trust me when I say that I fully understand what you're saying. I know that No Product=No Customers=Closed Stores.
It was not my intent to slight anyone by not mentioning the business side of this issue. I was only speaking from the hobbyists point of view.
Kanluwen wrote:No, my point is and always has been
"If you don't do things correctly anything is unsafe".
Go drink water, lots and lots of water. Go drink water correctly, over and over, for a few hours. Please.
Go walk correctly. Go walk correctly for hours and hours. And then come back when you can offer a response to a post without willfully disregarding the point behind it.
I understand his point, I just feel he has been trolling this thread for a while now and its bothering me. Instead of saying everything is unsafe he should consider how many people that buy this product are going to really abide by the safety protocols. Unless he considers what those percentages are really going to be, his theoretical nonsense is just that
Kanluwen wrote:No, my point is and always has been
"If you don't do things correctly anything is unsafe".
Go drink water, lots and lots of water. Go drink water correctly, over and over, for a few hours. Please.
Go walk correctly. Go walk correctly for hours and hours. And then come back when you can offer a response to a post without willfully disregarding the point behind it.
I understand his point, I just feel he has been trolling this thread for a while now and its bothering me. Instead of saying everything is unsafe he should consider how many people that buy this product are going to really abide by the safety protocols. Unless he considers what those percentages are really going to be, his theoretical nonsense is just that
I don't think he's trolling at all. He's offering a reasonable response to the people freaking out about, what is so far nothing more than a completely unconfirmed rumor. Resin is not that dangerous. GW has sold resin products before without issue. It's very likely, if true, the material will be of better and safer quality than FW resin, which most people are basing their resin modeling experience off of.
asmith wrote:A switch to resin casts from china maybe? That would help to explain how it could possibly be a cost savings.
Edit: Dude you can't get equal detail out of plastic injection molding as you can resin. The tooling prohibits it.
Metal and resin can be cast in the same tools. but resin will flow better than metal (and more importantly for longer) so it will be able to pick up more intricate detailing. Resin is the most expensive to do on a per piece basis but has the least amount of capital involved. Metal is in the middle and plastic injection is the highest capital investment but the lowest piece part price. (at least it should be, this is the part I don't understand, could metal prices be so high that it outweighs the increased cycle time of resin? Doesn't seem likely to me)
as for detailing it also follows the same trend, resin has the highest detail metal in the middle and plastic the least. I agree with you that plastic is capable of picking up an equal amount of detail as resin, but the way the tooling works prohibits you from practically achieving the same amount of detail.
Agreed on all points, except your statement on injection molding. The pellets are heated to a liquid base then injected in the mold to fill every nook and cranny. The company I work for, and have for 13+ years, makes toys and model kits for companies like Medicom, DC Direct, American McGees Alice to name a few off the top of my head. I think I know what I am talking about.
Hmm - it is a strange move but consider this, GW know what sells and how fast it sells. They've probably looked at what they have in stock (and I would guess they have A LOT of most things, maybe not 'Crons but hey) and gone
"Right, we don't sell a ton of this this and this so let's put them on the back burner until we sort this resin lark out"
They wouldn't cripple themselves on purpose and surely have had this planned for many months since metal prices have gone through the roof.
Grey Knight Luke wrote:
Instead of saying everything is unsafe he should consider how many people that buy this product are going to really abide by the safety protocols.
Whose fault is it if you choose not to abide by the safety protocols?
Spoiler:
Not GW's!
Unless he considers what those percentages are really going to be, his theoretical nonsense is just that
At the same time, assuming that everyone is going to not going to have safety precautions or do any kind of research into how to work with resin(this assumption really only works with the idea that GW will use FW's method, and not Tamiya or Dragon or AFV Club Taiwan's methods used in scale armour/infantry kits where there's basically no flash) is "theoretical nonsense" as well, Grey Knight Luke.
Apologies in advance if I break Dakka rule number 1.
I though this thread was about The GW products being pulled not the merits of resin vs metal vs plastic.
If thats what you want to discuss then surely punt it on to another thread instead of crapping over each other about which is best here.
Or even better start your own thread "Heavy metal versus plastic fantastic versus resin (raising)the dead" or something. (My poor attempt at humour). Pick one and explain why you think its the best modelling material or whatever.
And if health and safety means so much to you. Or you would like to enlighten the dakka (and possibly wider community), maybe do an article or tutorial on the safe ways to work with resin and other modelling materials.
Quite frankly this thread is getting bogged down in the back and forth between a few people pushing the same arguments using different words and sometimes going to stupid, extreme lengths just to get the last word in. It is farcical.
So enough of the "resin is deadly" crap, I do not believe that this is what this thread was set up for. We all should know that there are inherent risks in everything we do and it is up to us to either do things safely or go 3 sheets to the wind. It's called personal preference
Either stick to topic or start a new therad!!!
GW removing these models entirely = unlikely
GW using direct only sales = possible
GW using plastics the way they extolled the use of plastics on the new high elves for blood island = likely
GW using resin = possible.
How will any of this affect me? Not much, as long as I can get the models I would like and I do not pay through the nose I am happy.
How would any of these options affect your modelling/ hobby life?
Or are you just here to participate in more of this "SKY IS FALLING! SKY IS FALLING! SKY IS FALLING!" resin stuff?
Can you stop being purposefully obtuse. The man made a simple point that working with resin is more dangerous with working with metal or plastic. And his statement was true. Everyone knows that working with plastic can be dangerous too. That wasn't his point and your continuously harping on it doesn't add to the conversation and makes you look petty and foolish.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
mikhaila wrote:
JoeyHeadwounds wrote:I miss the days when I could walk into a FLGS and find almost everything I needed or wanted. And when I could order the bitZ I needed from GW... without having to buy a whole kit.
For me this is frustrating, but nowhere near as much of one as when those two abilities went extinct.
Heh, you're frustrated?)
Try being the guy who's living depends on a supply of stuff to sell. That list of stuff going away cripples a stores ability to sell many armies. It better come back fast in some format.
Mikhaila since you are the person here who probably knows the most about this I was wondering if you thought that switching to resin would have a negative effect on sales?
Lunchb0x wrote:
Agreed on all points, except your statement on injection molding. The pellets are heated to a liquid base then injected in the mold to fill every nook and cranny. The company I work for, and have for 13+ years, makes toys and model kits for companies like Medicom, DC Direct, American McGees Alice to name a few off the top of my head. I think I know what I am talking about.
Not to try and one up you, but I design plastic injection molds and parts as part of my job. Unless you can get undercuts as part of your process (which you can't do in injection molds for stiff plastic) you are not going to get the same amount of detail as in resin where you can build and mold basically any shape. Also to keep the parts from hanging in the die you have to draft and round off sharp detail to keep it from sticking when you do the ejection. Look at the toys you describe and then go grab one of forgeworlds more intricate resin casts. It's not even close. If you are molding in a highly flexible plastic you can do better, but that's not really suitable for GW style figures.
Plastic in the mold can pick up any shape, probably as well as resin if not better, but the realities of the mold design severely limit how much detail and what types can be put in. that's the big learning curve when jumping from metal or resin to plastic.
Lunchb0x wrote:
Agreed on all points, except your statement on injection molding. The pellets are heated to a liquid base then injected in the mold to fill every nook and cranny. The company I work for, and have for 13+ years, makes toys and model kits for companies like Medicom, DC Direct, American McGees Alice to name a few off the top of my head. I think I know what I am talking about.
Not to try and one up you, but I design plastic injection molds and parts as part of my job. Unless you can get undercuts as part of your process (which you can't do in injection molds for stiff plastic) you are not going to get the same amount of detail as in resin where you can build and mold basically any shape. Also to keep the parts from hanging in the die you have to draft and round off sharp detail to keep it from sticking when you do the ejection. Look at the toys you describe and then go grab one of forgeworlds more intricate resin casts. It's not even close. If you are molding in a highly flexible plastic you can do better, but that's not really suitable for GW style figures.
Plastic in the mold can pick up any shape, probably as well as resin if not better, but the realities of the mold design severely limit how much detail and what types can be put in. that's the big learning curve when jumping from metal or resin to plastic.
You are comparing Toys to model kits. A toy doesnt carry alot of the sharp edges/pointy bits, due to safety reasons. To help keep a piece sticking in the mold, polishing that location will do it. Though the cost to polish a mold at times can triple it. If you want an example of high detail look at most model kits, finescale not GW, those are all injection molded and some have amazing amounts of detail on parts , both big and small. I dont know what you design your molds for but I have been working exclusively with toys/models of both plastic and resin variety, that is where I pull my info from.
dantay_xv wrote:
Either stick to topic or start a new therad!!!
GW removing these models entirely = unlikely
GW using direct only sales = possible
GW using plastics the way they extolled the use of plastics on the new high elves for blood island = likely
GW using resin = possible.
How will any of this affect me? Not much, as long as I can get the models I would like and I do not pay through the nose I am happy.
How would any of these options affect your modelling/ hobby life?
P.S. Ouch... I just accidentally gouged my eyes out of my head with a smooth edged plastic spoon.
Sorry I just get fed up with people banging on needlessly ....... want some help with those eyes Oooops my chainsword just slipped
As far as I can see the Majority of the models are single figure or small elite (ish) units that you probably would not have too much of, therefore a limitted market. It would make sense to make these mail order direct to make more room for core or troop choices which people need to bulk out their forces within the stores, they can also set themselves easier manufacturing targets so that certain ranges are not over produced and left lying on shelves forever.
Unless this has been in the pipeline for a very long time, a huge move to another modelling medium could cause major headaches, especially if something went wrong. IF they are changing to resin or plastic, I would imagine that it would be phased in over a number of months, possibly a year or 2 so that they would get teething issues out of the way.
I personally prefer plastics... in the good (dark) old days I preferred metal, but as the standard of the plastics has risen quite dramatically over time and the ease in which conversions and kitbashing can be done with plastics. It makes hobbying more fun.
Also look at the island of blood models esp. the High Elves and the quality is quite stunning.
Resin is perfect for those centrepiece models which is going to have supremely exquisite detail, that everyone can enjoy and appreciate, especially the advanced modeller.
However whichever route GW are going down, I hope that it will not adversely affect modellers and suppliers (especially suppliers, as for some they are our lifeblood within the hobby) for too long.
GW are a lackluster business, they have no clue about whats really important - the customers. GW think that if they repackage their stuff more sales will occur, but they forget that all they need to do is bring back the bits range as it used to be, put prices in their catalogue and make it free, and put better models (and more) in their box sets and battalions. Its not hard, but they think it is. Switching to resin will simply put the prices up on already overpriced crap. And why do they print the names of the model designers instead of prices in their catalogue? does anyone care who designed anything or am the only one who thinks GW are greedy wasteful amateurs with no business sense and no regard for their customers? Amateurs.
GW are greedy wasteful amateurs with no business sense and no regard for their customers
The second point here is a reasonable enough perspective, given that GW care only about 'the customer' as a sort of malleable mass (some pewter, some plastic, some even resin...) that they can mould more or less easily with a certain amount of wastage along the way.
But to describe them as 'greedy wasteful amateurs' is, i think, to completely undervalue what the company has achieved over the last thirty-odd years, which (whether one likes it or not) is impressive.
Greedy -- okay, if you equate 'greed' with 'maximising profits' as many people (including myself sometimes) do.
Wasteful -- well of what? Their 'precious customer resource?' Hardly. They just whistle up replacement ore when current stocks pass their sell-by date. this has worked for them for years and shows in fact a thorough-goingly professional (though not necessarily admirable) approach to business.
Amateurish -- absolutely not.
Yes, some companies have a business model where they're all lovely and are very focused on their long term customer loyalty. These companies are most often (not always) smallish-medium size (for their particular industry) and newish. GW was actually more like this when they had, as you said, their bits-to-order, etc (freebies in WD too...). They haven't moved away from that because they're stupid. they've mobved away from that because it no longer makes economic sense for them to do so (or possibly they realised it in fact bnever did).
Now don't get me wrong, i rather wish they were friendlier and more customer-friendly (I could easily have strangled the young idiot who 'dealt' with a telephone query of mine recently). I can see lots of 'improvements' they could make, some of which would bring back what I remember as 'the good old days', but they'd be improvements from my perspective, not GWs. At the end of the day, having been an off and on GW customer for over 25 years, and cordially detesting many 'improvements' they have made... I'm still buying their figures and rulesbooks. Not frequently, and certainly not steadily for all those years (I've had several longish breaks). But they're clearly not getting things badly wrong. Because they're still dominating a market they pretty much single-handed wrenched from utter obscurity (to marginal obscurity) years ago. Now I grant you that their position is very fdifferent now. they have the jackal packs of all those new fresh-faced, customer-friendly companies snapping at them, carving little chunks from their flesh. So, as they've done before, they will adapt. Sometime, maybe, they'll fail to adapt appropriately, and they'll implode and die. But although their actions may appear stupid (employing young twits to answer the phones, for instance seems to me to be the height of folly), I don't think GW actually make many stupid moves.
As someone with a significant other trying to build her tyranid army and now finding these removed from indy stores, colour me a mite frustrated right now.
a while ago i put in an order for their catalogue and was told it would contain the entire bits range, prices and scenery. this was a scurolous lie. however, after complaining to gw i managed to get my money back and keep the picture book. this was just one example of gw's incompetence. i hate companies that dont take their customers seriously. gw are greedy and went the wrong way with the lord of the rings and floating on the stock exchange, they take more care of their stockholders than they do their customers.
Necros wrote:Does that mean we get free stuff if we buy stock? How many shares do you need for a free FW reaver?
Naw, but you could get dividends that you could spend on that stuff. I own stock and never even got a "Hi, how are ya!" but I'll take dividends over niceties.
i think that the answer is that they ARE switching to a resin of some kind. the models i glanced at (IG and lizardmen) were all quite heafty metal models; commisar, ogyrns, salamander hunting packs and the gigantic heavy metal thug that i love sosososo much that i have TWO of him: Ancient Scar Leader Kroq gar on a carnasaur. they would NOT leave thier client base hanging like this without future alternatives. I know they're GW but it is common sense for any business person that if you decide to cut back stock on a certain line because it's to expensive to make, then you should find a cheaper alternative to satisfy your hungry client base of gamers, painters and modelers followed by a horde of 8 year olds holding their mum's credit cards! I don't think they dumb enough to cut back this much stock without plans to reintroduce it!
MeanGreenStompa wrote:As someone with a significant other trying to build her tyranid army and now finding these removed from indy stores, colour me a mite frustrated right now.
I second this emotion. Just when I feel I'm getting to where I want to be with my bugs this comes out... Frustrated but not letting it show because I feel like there's more to the story than we know at the moment.
Keep in mind the list in the OP is in addition to the SKU’s that other vendors reported were being withdrawn / limited to stock on hand.
But just sticking to the list in the OP, that’s 239 SKU, 44 Special Characters from my count, and made up of both boxes and blisters and units from across the force org. Some of the items represent everything that is available in metal for a given army. If you a new Eldar, Tyranid, Skaven, Dark Elf, or Daemon player (just to name a few) you may find a hard time finding the models to fill out your army.
It just makes no sense that these models are being permanently withdrawn and very little sense that they are being moved behind the virtual wall known as “Direct Only”.
So many SKU’s being removed at one time, especially when GW is in the most favorable cash position it has been in since the LOTR bubble speaks loudly that a conversion of some kind is happening.
Again, I am sure GW would love it if there was a surge of “panic” buying that helped draw down stock, so why should GW step in quickly to “dispel” rumors. Also, maybe whatever conversion was going to take place was supposed to occur more gradual, but with the cat out of the bag so to speak and the ensuing “panic” buying, maybe GW has been forced to accelerate their plans, hence the vastly expanding list of SKU’s and increasing amount of speculation. All of which is seemingly self perpetuating.
wookie8472 wrote:connections or not, gw should take heed of the signs and learn to play nice...
or else.
Or else? What? You'll keep posting how much you don't like them? You've got all of 4 posts on Dakka, and you manage to spout nonsense and you're dislike of the company in each one. It doesn't add anything to the discussion.
More on topic:
I'm starting to get a lot of 'Out of stocks' in my orders. Whether these will come back to mail order at some point or not, they can't say. I tried to special order Tau Broadsides and a Crisis Commander, and they came in as a zero on the invoice. This was through direct, not trade sales, so no orders on those are getting filled.
MGS - I've got all the metal Tyranid pieces in stock right now. Tell Mrs. Stompa to make a list and send me a PM and we can work it out.
Oni - All metal blisters, boxes of metal figures, hybrid boxes with metal and platic pieces. If it has metal in it at all, it's currently "On run down, and available while supplies last".
I got tired of seeing blank hooks and condensed down my GW blisters from 200 pegs to 96 pegs. This made room on the walls for the big order I got in of Gamezone, Scribor, Cmon, and SodaPop. I hate to not have every section of the store crammed with stuff, and am adapting to the "Great Metal Exodus of 2011". If GW suddenly has a boatload of resin kits for me on May 16th, I'll find a way to make it all fit.)
wookie8472 wrote:am the only one who thinks GW are greedy wasteful amateurs with no business sense and no regard for their customers?
You're not the only one, but you're all wrong.
Industry leaders don't get to where they are by acting as you describe.
You would be surprised how far they get with the right connections
We're not talking about banks or Haliburton here.
Even with 'connections'(which is a laughable idea to say the least), GW isn't a vital industry where a government or rich financier is going to step in to bail them out if something goes wrong.
What cracks me up, and I am sure the vets. will agree, is I heard this all before when they went from lead to pewter. How the world was coming to an end and GW will pay for their crimes against humanity. This is a hobby... I for one will do this hobby till I fall down dead, even if I do not play I enjoy building and collecting.
Guys GW is not the anti-Christ, are they saints, no. Though I have to say get with store owners like mikhaila who take care of their customers and it makes this hobby alot less painful. GW will raise prices again, they will cut down the number of figs per box, they will change materials from whatever they are doing to something else, nothing stays the same and thats life. Good Luck on bridging the gap while they retool, have patience, who knows maybe this new stuff will be a thing of legends.... maybe.
Uktabi wrote: GW will raise prices again, they will cut down the number of figs per box, they will change materials from whatever they are doing to something else, nothing stays the same and thats life.
Exactly, just like any other company. No one pisses and moans when Wonderbread changes ingredients or raises its prices.
PS, not taking issue with quoted post, only echoing its sentiments.
wookie8472 wrote:am the only one who thinks GW are greedy wasteful amateurs with no business sense and no regard for their customers?
You're not the only one, but you're all wrong.
Industry leaders don't get to where they are by acting as you describe.
You're right, but in GW's case they did so by being first (that is first to try and be a large scale miniature corp.), not by necessarily being best.
That being said, I see GW is having a summer of magic for WFB. I play Bretonnians. Maybe I'll pick up some more damsels for the summer event. Oh wait, I can't- they're all discontinued right now.
If GW really are moving to resin then they could have made the transition smoother (ie actually let their customers buy their products in stores) rather than pull items without explanation. If they're pulling these to be direct order forever then that's ok too, just let the customers know what's going on.
theHandofGork wrote:
You're right, but in GW's case they did so by being first (that is first to try and be a large scale miniature corp.), not by necessarily being best.
That's just patently incorrect. They were just the most successful.
I really dig metal. But if they are at least going to be replaced with resin/plastic/unobtainium, I suppose I can adjust... I'll just get my metal fix with Privateer Press, Infinity, Malifaux, Anima Tactics, and the random Reaper here and there.
I know that there are a lot of people complaining on here about the move to plastic models. I am all for it. Almost my entire gaming group hates metal models. I know I sure do. They often don't fit together, they are hard to glue together (when compared to plastic kits), big pieces often need to be pinned, etc. I have had none of these problems with the plastic kits. If they get rid of all of the metal models and put them into plastic, then that would be sweet. However, I have a feeling that this is not what is going on with this. I bet you they are just going Direct Only.
if gw go direct only, it will save them money on having to pay for stores, staff wages and distribution. maybe with the current trend of more people losing their jobs than ever before gw want to jump on the bandwagon. i like metal models, they are a lot easier to customise than plastic or toxic resin. and the weight helps them to stand up. gw should have slowly integrated the resin models (if resin is their plan) rather than halt production and piss everyone off.
theHandofGork wrote:
You're right, but in GW's case they did so by being first (that is first to try and be a large scale miniature corp.), not by necessarily being best.
That's just patently incorrect. They were just the most successful.
Oh yeah, I forgot about ______ who started a chain of mini wargaming retail stores and then went public to gain enough capital to have a worldwide operation before GW. What company was that again? This isn't to knock the good things (business-wise) GW has done over the years, but they were the first miniature company to operate on such a scale. And being first is often better than being best.
mikhaila wrote:I got tired of seeing blank hooks and condensed down my GW blisters from 200 pegs to 96 pegs. This made room on the walls for the big order I got in of Gamezone, Scribor, Cmon, and SodaPop. I hate to not have every section of the store crammed with stuff, and am adapting to the "Great Metal Exodus of 2011". If GW suddenly has a boatload of resin kits for me on May 16th, I'll find a way to make it all fit.)
Gamezone?! Wow, I'm going to have to try and stop in this weekend because I've been wanting to see those models in person for a long time.
wookie8472 wrote:if gw go direct only, it will save them money on having to pay for stores, staff wages and distribution.
You do know what "direct only" means, right?
It doesn't mean that they close up their shops and let staff go.
It just means that the models are only available by ordering--and the production staff at the plants are the ones who would be handling your models before they're sent out to you directly(or your shop, as the case may be) and the normal chain of distribution is cut out. They also won't come in a fancy box with graphics, but instead a simple white box labeled "CITADEL" with a sticky note detailing what's inside and a UPC.
maybe with the current trend of more people losing their jobs than ever before gw want to jump on the bandwagon.
Yeah...that's why they're shutting down the stores they have worldwide, right?
Oh wait!
i like metal models, they are a lot easier to customise than plastic or toxic resin. and the weight helps them to stand up.
Plastic and resin have no problems standing up by themselves. Your point is invalid.
gw should have slowly integrated the resin models (if resin is their plan) rather than halt production and piss everyone off.
it may all go to pot..
That's actually exactly what they're doing. They didn't just decide "Oh hey guys, let's switch to resin" one night and implement the policy the next day.
Right now, if the whole resin thing is correct: they're selling off the full warehoused stock of pewter models.
With many of these models, they will likely sit on shelves until the next bloody edition of 40k.
This "no moar metalz! oh noes!" attitude doesn't help matters, at all, when it comes to discussion.
I don't really understand why you would want metal models. They are a bitch to put together, to convert and even to paint. They fall over all the time (I have a number of Raptors that need an exceptionally flat surface to stand on, even with weights in the base) and the level of detail is not greater than any other medium.
wookie8472 wrote:if gw go direct only, it will save them money on having to pay for stores, staff wages and distribution.
Can you name a successful game that is only sold mail-order? I can't really think of any.
I take this ill thought out comment a bit more seriously, since it affects my job directly. My stores have sold thousands of dollars a month in GW figures for two decades. We've built up a large community, and make GW a good bit of money. In the case you describe, I'd be scrambling to find something else to sell, and would put every effort into pushing Warmachine, Malifaux, Flames of War, and any other non GW game. GW would lose a big chunk of sales, and a store advertising their product. Warhammer would become a niche product that people play in their basements and can't find new players. We'd be playing every other game in the store and telling people to leave their GW stuff at home.
That would not make GW more money. GW is successful because of it's market penetration through their own stores and in thousands of FLGS.
I dislike metal - it falls over, it falls apart, the paint chips off - but I strongly doubt that a toxic dust-generating resin is ever going to be seen as a suitable material for mainline models. Hector Rex, maybe, but if you tell every parent buying Mephiston or Dante for their 11-year old hobbyist that they'll need a dust mask to not die whilst building their model you can just kiss a massive amount of turnover goodbye as youths get bought airfix instead. Switching to resin would be an astonishingly risky move; screwing over FLGS and ebay trader profit margins by switching to direct sounds far more likely.
I dislike metal - it falls over, it falls apart, the paint chips off - but I strongly doubt that a toxic dust-generating resin is ever going to be seen as a suitable material for mainline models. Hector Rex, maybe, but if you tell every parent buying Mephiston or Dante for their 11-year old hobbyist that they'll need a dust mask to not die whilst building their model you can just kiss a massive amount of turnover goodbye as youths get bought airfix instead. Switching to resin would be an astonishingly risky move; screwing over FLGS and ebay trader profit margins by switching to direct sounds far more likely.
Okay. So, now I must be confused. I thought resin and plastic were the same thing? If so, then I should be dead right now according to your statement...
Why do people keep thinking resin dust = DEATH!!!!!! and that even a basic infantry model has enough resin dust to OMFGKILLYOUOMFGOMFG!!!one!!!1 ? While resin may not be the most safe material, let's remember.
1) Infantry scale models do not need so much sawing and sanding to produce significant amounts of dust. You need to be sawing hunks of excess resin off titans and other big models to get that. How many 11 year olds have their parents buy them Titans?
2) Resin dust is not nerve gas, nor is it powdered anthrax. A little bit won't hurt you, a bit will make you uncomfortable, and unless you're snorting up lines of the stuff after tossing a Phantom Titan into a blender, you're not going to die.
Relax people. Seriously. Resin is no more dangerous that the spray paint everyone uses. Do you see 11 year olds dropping dead from spray paint? No. Do you see parents snatching them away from 40k because of paint? No. Why the hell do you think this will happen with resin?
Edit: In modelling terms, resin and plastic are very different materials.
lindsay40k wrote:I dislike metal - it falls over, it falls apart, the paint chips off - but I strongly doubt that a toxic dust-generating resin is ever going to be seen as a suitable material for mainline models. Hector Rex, maybe, but if you tell every parent buying Mephiston or Dante for their 11-year old hobbyist that they'll need a dust mask to not die whilst building their model you can just kiss a massive amount of turnover goodbye as youths get bought airfix instead. Switching to resin would be an astonishingly risky move; screwing over FLGS and ebay trader profit margins by switching to direct sounds far more likely.
This entire post shows that you absolutely don't know what you're talking about regarding resin.
ChrisWWII wrote:Why do people keep thinking resin dust = DEATH!!!!!! and that even a basic infantry model has enough resin dust to OMFGKILLYOUOMFGOMFG!!!one!!!1 ? While resin may not be the most safe material, let's remember.
1) Infantry scale models do not need so much sawing and sanding to produce significant amounts of dust. You need to be sawing hunks of excess resin off titans and other big models to get that. How many 11 year olds have their parents buy them Titans?
2) Resin dust is not nerve gas, nor is it powdered anthrax. A little bit won't hurt you, a bit will make you uncomfortable, and unless you're snorting up lines of the stuff after tossing a Phantom Titan into a blender, you're not going to die.
Relax people. Seriously. Resin is no more dangerous that the spray paint everyone uses. Do you see 11 year olds dropping dead from spray paint? No. Do you see parents snatching them away from 40k because of paint? No. Why the hell do you think this will happen with resin?
I would like to take this moment to show the worry that this issue has caused with gamers who are more than capable of understanding resin issues. This thread has people that have clearly shown that resin can be properly handled and it wont cause any damage. But people are STILL freaking out. IF IF IF this is GW going to resin products, think of what is going to happen when the general public learns about all the "dangers" of resin? it is legitimately a risk for GW and FLGS' in general depending on if they get the one crazy parent who throws a fit about resin products hurting precious little timmy. The problem is not how real the risk of resin is. The problem is the general public's perception of the risk.
Has anyone cared at all about privateers 'plastic' jacks and models? I was under the impression that the resin GW may swap over too is more of this type than the stuff FW uses.
mikhaila wrote:Has anyone cared at all about privateers 'plastic' jacks and models? I was under the impression that the resin GW may swap over too is more of this type than the stuff FW uses.
True. Good Point. The only thing I can say to rebuke that is that Privateers customer base is MUCH smaller than GW. The chance raises significantly when GW does it just due to the amount of people buying product.
mikhaila wrote:Has anyone cared at all about privateers 'plastic' jacks and models? I was under the impression that the resin GW may swap over too is more of this type than the stuff FW uses.
Having never put together a PP 'Jack or other model, I can't comment on that, but as I hear, PP uses some kind of plastic-resin mix that isn't as hard to work with, yes?
All this metal Vs plastic debate is descending into two bald men fighting over a comb!
As it's been pointed out, people are already at risk from a combination of plastic dust and poly cement/resin/superglue anyway, but life goes on. Just make sure you do your spraying outside and use a craft knife instead of a file.
Far more insidious is the number of players I know that have either impaled their hands on regiments of spearmen, or slipped on dice lying around on the floor. Nobody makes a big deal out of that!
As for metal models, well a couple of weeks ago before I'd even heard this news, my local hobby shop took order of lots of metal blisters and placed another decent sized order for this week. They turned up fine.
ChrisWWII wrote:Why do people keep thinking resin dust = DEATH!!!!!! and that even a basic infantry model has enough resin dust to OMFGKILLYOUOMFGOMFG!!!one!!!1 ? While resin may not be the most safe material, let's remember.
1) Infantry scale models do not need so much sawing and sanding to produce significant amounts of dust. You need to be sawing hunks of excess resin off titans and other big models to get that. How many 11 year olds have their parents buy them Titans?
Maybe not Titans, but I got a fair number of Hive Tyrants, Lictors, Zoanthropes and the like as a kid. 'Not eating the lead' was a fairly easy Health & Safety rule to follow without babysitting, but I would not let a child build a FW Dreadnought, MC or suchlike unsupervised.
ChrisWWII wrote:2) Resin dust is not nerve gas, nor is it powdered anthrax. A little bit won't hurt you, a bit will make you uncomfortable, and unless you're snorting up lines of the stuff after tossing a Phantom Titan into a blender, you're not going to die.
Maybe one casual hobbyist might not produce enough dust to be dangerous, but instore hobby support is a different thing. 20 or so kids with Striking Scorpions and Stone Trolls and Vault Warriors bringing them instore to build on Saturday because Mum's not having that dust on the carpets and getting sniffed up by the dog is quite another. The options facing a store manager will be to either issue dust masks to everybody going near the painting table, or else tell the kids they'll just have to take it home and work it out for themselves. I'm not sure which is the worst of those two scarecrows, but I can't imagine any others of greater efficacy in dissuading new blood.
ChrisWWII wrote:Relax people. Seriously. Resin is no more dangerous that the spray paint everyone uses. Do you see 11 year olds dropping dead from spray paint? No. Do you see parents snatching them away from 40k because of paint? No. Why the hell do you think this will happen with resin?
Because spray painting tends to be done outside, whereas hobby desks tend to be in bedrooms?
ChrisWWII wrote:Why do people keep thinking resin dust = DEATH!!!!!! and that even a basic infantry model has enough resin dust to OMFGKILLYOUOMFGOMFG!!!one!!!1 ? While resin may not be the most safe material, let's remember.
1) Infantry scale models do not need so much sawing and sanding to produce significant amounts of dust. You need to be sawing hunks of excess resin off titans and other big models to get that. How many 11 year olds have their parents buy them Titans?
Maybe not Titans, but I got a fair number of Hive Tyrants, Lictors, Zoanthropes and the like as a kid. 'Not eating the lead' was a fairly easy Health & Safety rule to follow without babysitting, but I would not let a child build a FW Dreadnought, MC or suchlike unsupervised.
I wouldn't let them do that anyways. With all the sawing and knifework, it's asking for trouble from uncoordinated children.
In fact, I'm surprised some of the adult gamers we have are still around considering all the accidents they have.
ChrisWWII wrote:2) Resin dust is not nerve gas, nor is it powdered anthrax. A little bit won't hurt you, a bit will make you uncomfortable, and unless you're snorting up lines of the stuff after tossing a Phantom Titan into a blender, you're not going to die.
Maybe one casual hobbyist might not produce enough dust to be dangerous, but instore hobby support is a different thing. 20 or so kids with Striking Scorpions and Stone Trolls and Vault Warriors bringing them instore to build on Saturday because Mum's not having that dust on the carpets and getting sniffed up by the dog is quite another. The options facing a store manager will be to either issue dust masks to everybody going near the painting table, or else tell the kids they'll just have to take it home and work it out for themselves. I'm not sure which is the worst of those two scarecrows, but I can't imagine any others of greater efficacy in dissuading new blood.
Which is why it looks more and more that it'll be done the same way as Privateer Press' polystyrene/resin blend.
"Resin" is a very vague concept that can apply to a great many things.
ChrisWWII wrote:Relax people. Seriously. Resin is no more dangerous that the spray paint everyone uses. Do you see 11 year olds dropping dead from spray paint? No. Do you see parents snatching them away from 40k because of paint? No. Why the hell do you think this will happen with resin?
Because spray painting tends to be done outside, whereas hobby desks tend to be in bedrooms?
I don't know about you, but my hobby desk is in a garage.
ChrisWWII wrote:Relax people. Seriously. Resin is no more dangerous that the spray paint everyone uses. Do you see 11 year olds dropping dead from spray paint? No. Do you see parents snatching them away from 40k because of paint? No. Why the hell do you think this will happen with resin?
Because spray painting tends to be done outside, whereas hobby desks tend to be in bedrooms?
Shhhhhhhh! Didn't you know, all true hobbyists use garages, sheds and industrial parks for their modeling sites? Pfff...
Edit: Wow, here I was thinking I was making an absurdist claim, and Kan goes and shows me once again no claim is too absurd for some crowds...
ChrisWWII wrote:Relax people. Seriously. Resin is no more dangerous that the spray paint everyone uses. Do you see 11 year olds dropping dead from spray paint? No. Do you see parents snatching them away from 40k because of paint? No. Why the hell do you think this will happen with resin?
Because spray painting tends to be done outside, whereas hobby desks tend to be in bedrooms?
Shhhhhhhh! Didn't you know, all true hobbyists use garages, sheds and industrial parks for their modeling sites? Pfff...
Edit: Wow, here I was thinking I was making an absurdist claim, and Kan goes and shows me once again no claim is too absurd for some crowds...
It's not like the whole garage is for hobby. I have a workbench in there. Most of it is taken up by my airbrush booth though.
It only makes sense for me in the end. Concrete floor is easy to hose down, there's a window for ventilation so I can paint/spray on rainy days, etc.
Cleaning and assembling models is done whereever, but painting is always done in that spraybooth.
Could someone point me to information on this polystyrene resin blend? It sounds to me like the whole concept is made up by people who don't know much about plastics, but I want to do my homework. It's amazing how many people are repeating this as fact.
I think that they probably just need more wallspace in the retail stores for all the new box sets they are launching as they sell more volume and thus are more profitable.
asmith wrote:Could someone point me to information on this polystyrene resin blend? It sounds to me like the whole concept is made up by people who don't know much about plastics, but I want to do my homework. It's amazing how many people are repeating this as fact.
Send an email to Privateer Press about the nature of their plastics, that's my best guess. Unless someone is willing to submit their 'Jack to a chemical analysis at your friendly neighbourhood chemistry lab?
Kurce wrote:What is the stuff that the standard Space Marine sprue made out of? I was thinking that is what they would convert all of their stuff to...
Send an email to Privateer Press about the nature of their plastics, that's my best guess. Unless someone is willing to submit their 'Jack to a chemical analysis at your friendly neighbourhood chemistry lab?
I figured since everyone was repeating the same thing there must be some info out there stating the facts. I just looked for about 20 minutes and couldn't find anything on it. It's even gone a step further and people are saying the new GW figures will be made of the same material. If PP uses an injection mold for the material, there is no way GW's going to use the same material in a spin caster with the same tools as the metal figs. Amazing how quickly unsubstaniated speculation gets repeated as fact.
Send an email to Privateer Press about the nature of their plastics, that's my best guess. Unless someone is willing to submit their 'Jack to a chemical analysis at your friendly neighbourhood chemistry lab?
I figured since everyone was repeating the same thing there must be some info out there stating the facts. I just looked for about 20 minutes and couldn't find anything on it. It's even gone a step further and people are saying the new GW figures will be made of the same material.
No, actually. I know for a fact that I've been saying that "the new GW figures would likely be made of the same material".
If PP uses an injection mold for the material, there is no way GW's going to use the same material in a spin caster with the same tools as the metal figs. Amazing how quickly unsubstantiated speculation gets repeated as fact.
And it's amazing how quickly people forget things.
Resin is, in fact, a form of plastic.
Wikipedia page on Resin Casting wrote:Resin casting is a method of plastic casting where a mold is filled with a liquid synthetic resin, which then hardens. It is primarily used for small scale production like industrial prototypes and dentistry. It can be done by amateur hobbyists with little initial investment, and has been appropriated for the production of collectible toys, models and figures, as well as small scale jewelry production.
The synthetic resin for such processes is a monomer for making a plastic thermosetting polymer. During the setting process, the liquid monomer polymerizes into the polymer, thereby hardening into a solid.
I should also add this part about spin casting:
Spin casting, also known as centrifugal rubber mold casting (CRMC), is a method of utilizing centrifugal force to produce castings from a rubber mold. Typically, a disc-shaped mold is spun along its central axis at a set speed. The casting material, usually molten metal or liquid thermoset plastic is then poured in through an opening at the top-center of the mold. The filled mold then continues to spin as the metal solidifies or the thermoset plastic sets.
But no, as far as I know Privateer Press hasn't said what their stuff is made from. They have dubbed things "resin" and then later called them "plastic" though.
A standard sprue is plastic. They could convert it to that, but that'd be more expensive, and plastic can't hold as much detail as resin or metal can.
Wait. The plastic is more expensive than the metal? And to be honest, the amount of detail on the plastic sprues seems pretty much the same compared to metal ones. Meh.
There are various types of resin. All of them involve chemicals you would not want to drink or breathe any more than you had to. They are not nerve gasses. The most widely used is polyurethane.
Raw styrene is the same. You can actually buy raw styrene plus polymerising agent. It is available under the Chemical Metal brand and is used for car body filling putty.
Polystyrene models come to you already set, with any volatile organic compounds gassed away. The same will be true of resin models.
The only thing that matters is how much resin dust can irritate the lungs, and how much it could leach poisonous compounds into the body if breathed in or eaten.
Fully reacted polyurethane is chemically inert, meaning it will not leach out chemicals into your body if you breathe or eat it. Polyurethane dust can irritate the eyes and lungs. So can many other dusts such as chalk, MDF and paint particles.
Working with set polyurethane models will be perfectly safe as long as you don't stir up dust everywhere. Wear a mask and eyeshields if you are nervous. The same advice could be given for metal or polystyrene.
n0t_u wrote:Because flailing around like this is more interesting?
I'm thinking, like others have already said, these will go to direct only to slowly chip down the remaining stock while they switch over to resin. Hopefully the quality doesn't drop when they do this.
It's rumored. There's some strong evidence that a number of metals are being withdrawn from sale, but nothing official has been said. It could be some sort of repackaging.
Anybody have an example of a GW kit that is resin? I would like to know the differences between plastic sprue and a resin sprue. I am assuming that Dark Eldar Incubi are metal models, so I know what those are like.
It's rumored. There's some strong evidence that a number of metals are being withdrawn from sale, but nothing official has been said. It could be some sort of repackaging.
Had a heart to heart of sorts with a GW representative. Some Trade reps who feel their accounts deserve to know something are telling them that it is a recoding/repackage - but that it is only half the story and that they can't say more and that all will be made clear on May 16. Also, that everyone was really excited about what was happening and felt that the short term inconvenience concerning product availability was worth it.
It's rumored. There's some strong evidence that a number of metals are being withdrawn from sale, but nothing official has been said. It could be some sort of repackaging.
I'm currently having a hell of a time getting Tau Broadside suits. Ordered a bunch from Dicebucket, but got a refund e-mail and they were removed from my order yesterday. Even the GW site has them as 'should ship within 1-2 weeks' rather than the usual 'ships within 24 hours'. Just another minor piece of evidence I guess...
That's another thing I don't get... what's the big deal with May 16th? Why can't they just say what's up right now? I mean, how hard would it be to send out an "incoming" email blast that says "Howdy folks, here's what we're doing. blah blah blah"
Send an email to Privateer Press about the nature of their plastics, that's my best guess. Unless someone is willing to submit their 'Jack to a chemical analysis at your friendly neighbourhood chemistry lab?
I figured since everyone was repeating the same thing there must be some info out there stating the facts. I just looked for about 20 minutes and couldn't find anything on it. It's even gone a step further and people are saying the new GW figures will be made of the same material.
No, actually. I know for a fact that I've been saying that "the new GW figures would likely be made of the same material".
If PP uses an injection mold for the material, there is no way GW's going to use the same material in a spin caster with the same tools as the metal figs. Amazing how quickly unsubstantiated speculation gets repeated as fact.
And it's amazing how quickly people forget things.
Resin is, in fact, a form of plastic.
Wikipedia page on Resin Casting wrote:Resin casting is a method of plastic casting where a mold is filled with a liquid synthetic resin, which then hardens. It is primarily used for small scale production like industrial prototypes and dentistry. It can be done by amateur hobbyists with little initial investment, and has been appropriated for the production of collectible toys, models and figures, as well as small scale jewelry production.
The synthetic resin for such processes is a monomer for making a plastic thermosetting polymer. During the setting process, the liquid monomer polymerizes into the polymer, thereby hardening into a solid.
I should also add this part about spin casting:
Spin casting, also known as centrifugal rubber mold casting (CRMC), is a method of utilizing centrifugal force to produce castings from a rubber mold. Typically, a disc-shaped mold is spun along its central axis at a set speed. The casting material, usually molten metal or liquid thermoset plastic is then poured in through an opening at the top-center of the mold. The filled mold then continues to spin as the metal solidifies or the thermoset plastic sets.
But no, as far as I know Privateer Press hasn't said what their stuff is made from. They have dubbed things "resin" and then later called them "plastic" though.
I got to hand it to you, you really aren't afraid to go on and on about things you don't know anything about. Nice job with the wikipedia though! Makes everyone an expert doesn't it?
This really appears to boil down to two fairly plausible rumors.
One is that all the newly OOP stuff will be Direct Only, the other is that they are going to reissue the models for sale after they begin manufacturing them from a different material other than pewter. Of course, a hybrid of the two is possible, which is to say that they could change materials and make the models Direct Only as well.
A friend of mine owns his own game store. He already put all the newly discontinued stock on sale for 50% off. Like the rest of us, store owners are waiting for a formal announcement about what the future plans are for the items affected by the recent discontinuation. How many more pages of rampant speculation will appear here before the announcement next month? Really, at this point everything that can be said has been said. Now we just have to wait till it either leaks out or GW announces it.
asmith wrote:
I got to hand it to you, you really aren't afraid to go on and on about things you don't know anything about. Nice job with the wikipedia though! Makes everyone an expert doesn't it?
Sorry, where did I say I was an expert on massed production casting?
I posted the Wikipedia entry because that's about as much as I know on the casting process.
I've stated the Privateer Press thing because I remember it being mentioned, by Privateer Press, as what they were doing when they swapped over to 'plastic' Warjacks.
BrassScorpion wrote:
A friend of mine owns his own game store. He already put all the newly discontinued stock on sale for 50% off.
Where is this store and if not in my area, does he sell online? 50% off, I would be insane not to throw my money at him.
Unfortunately, this sale's been going on for a while and nearly everything is gone. I'm 3 hours away from the store and couldn't get there till yesterday. There are still some blisters left and a few box sets, but most of the super popular stuff is already gone. If you want to know more about the store, here's a link: http://www.ftwgames.net/
That's another thing I don't get... what's the big deal with May 16th? Why can't they just say what's up right now?
I've always found it bizarre how many companies ofvall sorts, not just GW by any means, do something that creates a deal of uncertainty and then announce that 'all will be revealed' at a later date. It doesn't seem sensible to me. But given it's very common business practise, across a range of manufacturers/retailers, there must be good reasons for it (not necessarily reasons you or I would regard as good, but good in a business way). GW have always played close to the chest (eg first time I became aware White Dwarf was dropping all non-GW games from its content was when the first issue lacking RQ, Cthulhu, etc came out).
if it is just a repackaging, what is the point? i'm sure the current packaging is adequate. it's not the packaging we buy the models for, or am i missing the bloody point again?
wookie8472 wrote:if it is just a repackaging, what is the point? i'm sure the current packaging is adequate. it's not the packaging we buy the models for, or am i missing the bloody point again?
'Just a repackaging' could describe 'withdrawing the models as blisters and putting them in Direct Sales baggies so as to make them direct only, thereby making a token saving on warehousing and also screwing profit margins out of indie stockists'.
wookie8472 wrote:if it is just a repackaging, what is the point? i'm sure the current packaging is adequate. it's not the packaging we buy the models for, or am i missing the bloody point again?
'Just a repackaging' could describe 'withdrawing the models as blisters and putting them in Direct Sales baggies so as to make them direct only, thereby making a token saving on warehousing and also screwing profit margins out of indie stockists'.
I find this "screwing profit margins out of indie stockists" bit hilarious.
Here in the US they have the same "direct only" items as the UK. Indie stockists can carry the stuff, same as your shops can. The only difference is the stockist has to actually put in an order. Oh noes!
wookie8472 wrote:if it is just a repackaging, what is the point? i'm sure the current packaging is adequate. it's not the packaging we buy the models for, or am i missing the bloody point again?
'Just a repackaging' could describe 'withdrawing the models as blisters and putting them in Direct Sales baggies so as to make them direct only, thereby making a token saving on warehousing and also screwing profit margins out of indie stockists'.
I find this "screwing profit margins out of indie stockists" bit hilarious.
Here in the US they have the same "direct only" items as the UK. Indie stockists can carry the stuff, same as your shops can. The only difference is the stockist has to actually put in an order. Oh noes!
Really? You can in no way think of a way that this change disadvantages independent stockists compared to their current situation? Perhaps I misunderstand the nature of Direct Sales, could you explain?
Not to get in the way of a pointless back and forth here... But I am wondering what to do, I need another Astorath and Corbulo. These will be bases for conversions, I am having trouble deciding between direct ordering the tougher to use metals, or, wait for the resins and hope the quality is good...
Could we please stop talking about the chemical safety of resin here, it is off topic to the conversation, if the whole swapping to resin is bothering you then, create another thread for that discussion, I am much more interested in reading what is happening to the metal products.
Kurce wrote:What is the stuff that the standard Space Marine sprue made out of? I was thinking that is what they would convert all of their stuff to...
Polystyrene.
Polypropylene.
PS is hard and breaks easily.
PP is softer and will bend before breaking.
You can combine PP with resin to get some rather great results.
OK. Spoke to local GW manager yesterday and his reason was that they require shelf space.
Items that are not sold often enough will be relegated to Direct Only, though you can order through your local store and the items come in through the GW Store.
He debunked the resin theories. Stating "Resin will not be sold in GW stores due to young customers".
AvatarForm wrote:OK. Spoke to local GW manager yesterday and his reason was that they require shelf space.
Sounds like waffle to me. Deathguard Marines are a popular addition to CSM armies, but they have been withdrawn. I'm sure we could collectively list a bunch of other boxes for other armies that could equally be regarded as popular or necessary that have also been withdrawn. Blisters don't take up "shelf" space, as they hang on hooks. My local GW has had several empty hooks since before Christmas.
I still think this is about about keeping certain sales for themselves, and the resulting increase in profits.
AvatarForm wrote:OK. Spoke to local GW manager yesterday and his reason was that they require shelf space.
Sounds like waffle to me. Deathguard Marines are a popular addition to CSM armies, but they have been withdrawn. I'm sure we could collectively list a bunch of other boxes for other armies that could equally be regarded as popular or necessary that have also been withdrawn. Blisters don't take up "shelf" space, as they hang on hooks. My local GW has had several empty hooks since before Christmas.
I still think this is about about keeping certain sales for themselves, and the resulting increase in profits.
Just reporting the facts.
"Shelf Space" also includes blister racks.
Regardless, if it turns out that they end up producing resin, then I know this manager lies and have enough witnesses to call him on it.
AvatarForm wrote:OK. Spoke to local GW manager yesterday and his reason was that they require shelf space.
Sounds like waffle to me. Deathguard Marines are a popular addition to CSM armies, but they have been withdrawn. I'm sure we could collectively list a bunch of other boxes for other armies that could equally be regarded as popular or necessary that have also been withdrawn. Blisters don't take up "shelf" space, as they hang on hooks. My local GW has had several empty hooks since before Christmas.
I still think this is about about keeping certain sales for themselves, and the resulting increase in profits.
Just reporting the facts.
"Shelf Space" also includes blister racks.
Regardless, if it turns out that they end up producing resin, then I know this manager lies and have enough witnesses to call him on it.
TBH, when has GWnot been about the profits?
Meh, there is a difference between lying and talking out your butt about things you don't really know...take a large portion of the posts in this thread for example.
So we listen to redshirts now? We all know that the individuals who work for GW are not allowed to talk about the release schedule or about anything other than what is on the shelves.
I think mikhaila, already has the answer, which is ride the storm out until the sixteenth and hope for good news.
All the models for the most part are metal or metal w/ plastic, they could be melting the old models down and selling the scrap, the new resin they are rumored to have is supposed to work with the existing molds for metal.
I'll be happy if they move to resin. I'm working on my first ever forgeworld model at the moment and I'm really impressed with the detail and easy of working with resin. Certainly, it snaps, but it won't be hit so hard as metal when it's dropped as it's lighter.
wookie8472 wrote:if it is just a repackaging, what is the point? i'm sure the current packaging is adequate. it's not the packaging we buy the models for, or am i missing the bloody point again?
'Just a repackaging' could describe 'withdrawing the models as blisters and putting them in Direct Sales baggies so as to make them direct only, thereby making a token saving on warehousing and also screwing profit margins out of indie stockists'.
I find this "screwing profit margins out of indie stockists" bit hilarious.
Here in the US they have the same "direct only" items as the UK. Indie stockists can carry the stuff, same as your shops can. The only difference is the stockist has to actually put in an order. Oh noes!
Well, and get the product in generic white boxes, and pay get 10% less discount on it. 10% less discount = 2/9 less profit, assuming you sell at full retail.
wookie8472 wrote:if it is just a repackaging, what is the point? i'm sure the current packaging is adequate. it's not the packaging we buy the models for, or am i missing the bloody point again?
'Just a repackaging' could describe 'withdrawing the models as blisters and putting them in Direct Sales baggies so as to make them direct only, thereby making a token saving on warehousing and also screwing profit margins out of indie stockists'.
I find this "screwing profit margins out of indie stockists" bit hilarious.
Here in the US they have the same "direct only" items as the UK. Indie stockists can carry the stuff, same as your shops can. The only difference is the stockist has to actually put in an order. Oh noes!
Well, and get the product in generic white boxes, and pay, getting 10% less discount on it. 10% less discount = 2/9 less profit, assuming you sell at full retail.
I didn't want to say the discount part because I didn't know about it
So orders through a LGS get 10% less discount for the shopowner?
Buzzsaw wrote:Really? You can in no way think of a way that this change disadvantages independent stockists compared to their current situation? Perhaps I misunderstand the nature of Direct Sales, could you explain?
Again, it's sort of a "What is announced on the 16th" sort of thing.
If I had to follow the pattern of UK stores, I'd lose a lot of money. Then again, GW loses a lot of money if I'm not moving all that product. Mutual like of profit makes me think they won't do that.
Moving a lot of metal to direct order affects me somewhat. But it also cuts my inventory and storage of slow moving product. Ordering on the products I know I can sell is good business. A bad store or mailorder discounter won't be doing it, so in some ways I can work it to an advantage by having things in stock other stores don't, including GW stores.
But I don't think that metal to Direct Order is what's happening. It's 'On run down', meaning it's going away. Since the games are sort of unplayable without that long list of models, it makes sense they are replacing the metal with another type of material.
In the end, how it will affect FLGS in the US will be determined by what they say on the 16th about the new system. I'm sort of trying to be patient and wait for it. Patient for me is re-arranging the store, and ordering in a ton of cool lines of figures I suddenly have space for. I'm trying to keep in mind that GW loves money, (me too, pays the rent and lets me not go to work at a gas station), and that my relationship with them makes us both a lot of money, and that it will continue.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Kanluwen wrote:
So orders through a LGS get 10% less discount for the shopowner?
Yep, we get a 45% discount off of retail for our orders through Trade, and a 35% discount on direct orders. Some of the difference though, is that for a Partnership account (carry full line, gaming space in store, yada yada), I can order just one blister and it ships to me from direct, with free shipping. So placing orders for stuff that comes from Mailorder is quite easy, and gives me access to everything a GW store has access to, including IA books now.
I would not however, like to see the bulk of items go to Direct. Doesn't leave enough in the shop for critical mass. I like selling someone an army, not a few plastic boxes and a promise they can get the other product from GW. I would hate to go to the system independents use in the UK.
I don't know if I missed someone stating this earlier, but isn't there another possibility? What if GW is making boxes of metal characters, "Dark Eldar Heroes" or the like? Malifaux and a few other companies do similar things, packaging the special characters for an army all together.
I don't know that it makes sense in the context of other metal boxes (plague marines etc.) but it might make a lot of sense to consolidate the single model metal blisters. Depending on what the marginal cost of each model in a blister is (basically the cost of materials) it might well work out that a box of 3 characters costs only 30% more than a blister of one, due to most of the cost being a question of packing, sorting and shipping. Sort of like how most restaurants will give you free coffee after you buy the initial cup; almost all the cost is paying someone hang around and walk it over to the table when you show up, and 1 cup or 5 makes little difference.
So maybe part of the plan is to put all the character models for a faction into one bigger box, or at least all the characters that are not larger kits?
No, I meant the blisters of characters. Like instead of buying one Farseer at a time you buy EVERY farseer model all at once. Or perhaps every named character in one box.
Or were you not referring to me, Kan? Wasn't sure if it was me or Swordwind.
Kanluwen wrote:Box sets go to direct order and packaged in a white box like what's already there.
Or is that a trick question?
Wehrkind only referenced blisters in his suggestion, and I thought he was talking about the entire list, so I was just wondering what he would say about boxed sets. My logic is a bit odd.
Kanluwen wrote:Box sets go to direct order and packaged in a white box like what's already there.
Or is that a trick question?
Wehrkind only referenced blisters in his suggestion, and I thought he was talking about the entire list, so I was just wondering what he would say about boxed sets. My logic is a bit odd.
1st sentence, 2nd paragraph.
Just sayin'... that I didn't have anything to say No idea what they are planning there, nor even a guess.
Kanluwen wrote:Box sets go to direct order and packaged in a white box like what's already there.
Or is that a trick question?
Wehrkind only referenced blisters in his suggestion, and I thought he was talking about the entire list, so I was just wondering what he would say about boxed sets. My logic is a bit odd.
1st sentence, 2nd paragraph.
Just sayin'... that I didn't have anything to say No idea what they are planning there, nor even a guess.
It also appears that I only have the ability to read the first sentence of someone's argument.
ChrisWWII wrote:Looks like it was just a repackage then, not a full out switch to resin...at least that's my interpretation of that email.
No, wrong interpretation I think.) Normally, none of this stuff would ever be out of stock. GW is selling down on items in the US, and transferring over more from the UK. We've been told 'metal is going away', which is why I don't believe it's repackaging. Why repackage all the stuff that is currently in boxes already? Some items are going away, others getting additional stock transferred over from the UK. If you want stuff off this list, grab it when it comes in.
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AvatarForm wrote:
mikhaila wrote:From an email from GW. Dates are when these items will be back in stock at GW mailorder in the US.
...
Thanks mate.
Is this for LFGS or everyone?
*removed mikhaila's wall from quote for sake of post length.
I got the email in response to some items that I orderd from 'Direct Order'. Broadsides, and many other items got zeroed out on my order form. Not sure if this would have gone out to me if I was a normal customer, or if I got it because I'm flagged in the Direct system as a retail store.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Here's the original email:
Hello,
We are currently packing the order you placed with Games Workshop. However; one or more of the item(s) you ordered are currently out of stock and will be on the list that follows. This is a list of all items on back order and when they are due to arrive into our warehouse.
The item(s) have been cancelled off your order, and you will not be charged for them. Please reorder them at your convenience. The remaining products on your order will be shipping soon! Feel free to contact us by email or phone at 1-800-394-4263 if you have any questions at all.
In the past, I'd get a call from Direct explaning that an item was temporarily out of stock. It happened very rarely. GW has always had a 99.99% fill rate on my orders, going back two decades. That's why this much out of stock tells me they are doing a huge revamp of their system.
I am undecided about whether the big changes will be like The Emperor Uniting Mankind and Ushering in a Golden age, or Finding out my new Proctologist is Kharn the Betrayer.
No, wrong interpretation I think.) Normally, none of this stuff would ever be out of stock. GW is selling down on items in the US, and transferring over more from the UK. We've been told 'metal is going away', which is why I don't believe it's repackaging. Why repackage all the stuff that is currently in boxes already? Some items are going away, others getting additional stock transferred over from the UK. If you want stuff off this list, grab it when it comes in.
You're the game store owner with 2 decades of experience, so I'll bow to you here. That was my off the top of head interpretation...failed to consider everything else.
No, wrong interpretation I think.) Normally, none of this stuff would ever be out of stock. GW is selling down on items in the US, and transferring over more from the UK. We've been told 'metal is going away', which is why I don't believe it's repackaging. Why repackage all the stuff that is currently in boxes already? Some items are going away, others getting additional stock transferred over from the UK. If you want stuff off this list, grab it when it comes in.
You're the game store owner with 2 decades of experience, so I'll bow to you here. That was my off the top of head interpretation...failed to consider everything else.
I'm throwing out wild ass guesses same as everyone else.) Mine are tempered a bit by "Surely GW wouldn't try an lose money..would they?". Unfortunately, when someone has a 'big plan', they can overlook losses in the short term when they have cost savings later on. Or think they do.) I'm very unsure of what's going on. Move to resin has been rumored a while and makes some sense, but how do they roll it out fast enough to not lose sales of items, and sales of whole armies when some parts are unavailable? Seems like a massive undertaking.
I worry too much of it was left up to guys running the warehouse who are motivated by what works at the warehouse level, vs. what keeps GW, and my store, profitable. And GW can lose money easier than I can. )
Figured I might as well post this here, since the Discussion thread is, oddly, relatively bereft of discussion.
insaniak wrote:
AvatarForm wrote:OK. Spoke to local GW manager today and his reason was that they require shelf space.
Items that are not sold often enough will be relegated to Direct Only, though you can order through your local store and the items come in through the GW Store.
He debunked the resin theories. Stating "Resin will not be sold in GW stores due to young customers".
And the mystery release is definitely not Space Hulk...
I think one of the biggest problems in this whole conversation(s) is that "resin" can mean so many things: the brittle stuff that FW uses, the "plastic" resin that PP uses, very toxic/carcinogenic products and things that are no more toxic then plastic/white metal.
I think it's fair to say that we are not going to see a product like what FW puts out in retail GW stores. If I had to guess, I would say whatever it is will probably not be called "resin"; after all, PP simply calls their kits plastic (err, except for their new big thingies...).
There is just too much confusion out there, too many things that would make alarm bells blare for parents (especially in the litigious US), too much info out there talking about how resin dust is next to asbestos, for it to be mass-marketed to kids. And let's be clear, for this stuff to go on retail sale, it's got to be getting sold to kids.
Buzzsaw wrote:Figured I might as well post this here, since the Discussion thread is, oddly, relatively bereft of discussion.
insaniak wrote:
AvatarForm wrote:OK. Spoke to local GW manager today and his reason was that they require shelf space.
Items that are not sold often enough will be relegated to Direct Only, though you can order through your local store and the items come in through the GW Store.
He debunked the resin theories. Stating "Resin will not be sold in GW stores due to young customers".
And the mystery release is definitely not Space Hulk...
I think one of the biggest problems in this whole conversation(s) is that "resin" can mean so many things: the brittle stuff that FW uses, the "plastic" resin that PP uses, very toxic/carcinogenic products and things that are no more toxic then plastic/white metal.
I think it's fair to say that we are not going to see a product like what FW puts out in retail GW stores. If I had to guess, I would say whatever it is will probably not be called "resin"; after all, PP simply calls their kits plastic (err, except for their new big thingies...).
There is just too much confusion out there, too many things that would make alarm bells blare for parents (especially in the litigious US), too much info out there talking about how resin dust is next to asbestos, for it to be mass-marketed to kids. And let's be clear, for this stuff to go on retail sale, it's got to be getting sold to kids.
This is not discussion... it is simply repeating what was already said earlier.
Buzzsaw wrote:Figured I might as well post this here, since the Discussion thread is, oddly, relatively bereft of discussion.
I actually find that quite refreshing. Most of the people who are now posting are those who are getting info first hand (although none of it is technically new and just repeating the same thing) or commenting on that same info and not the usual blurbs on GW evil corporate conspiracy theories... although there was a brief reference to GW anal probing... I'd say the wheat to chaff ratio in this thread is markedly higher than I was expecting for the past few pages. If you want some "OMG OMG OMG" discussion, there's plenty on the first few pages.
AvatarForm wrote:How do you lose money on anything from China?
Quality, a rising middle class in China and shipping costs. There's a reason more and more North American companies are moving manufacturing back to North America. It's not an alarming trend, but it's happening more and more.
MajorTom11 wrote:Not to get in the way of a pointless back and forth here... But I am wondering what to do, I need another Astorath and Corbulo. These will be bases for conversions, I am having trouble deciding between direct ordering the tougher to use metals, or, wait for the resins and hope the quality is good...
hmmm... what to do what to do -
Me too, i want an astoroth but money is tight and need another death company first.
AvatarForm wrote:How do you lose money on anything from China?
Quality, a rising middle class in China and shipping costs. There's a reason more and more North American companies are moving manufacturing back to North America. It's not an alarming trend, but it's happening more and more.
You also see a lot of manufacturing being done in Malaysia and Bangladesh etc. Funny to think about how 40 years ago Japan made all the crappy stuff, then Taiwan and Hong Kong, and now China, but increasingly other SE Asia countries. I hope the trend continues, as it seems to have done a hell of a lot of good over the past 40 years for those places.
A long while back they actually did make Gaunt Corbec Larkin and co as models and put the rules out in WD....... I'd be surprised if they made them again.... but it would be damned cool and I am not even a Guard player.
Might be a rerelease of the first omnibus book, as that is what it was titled (like rereleasing Horus rising as a 5 year anniversary thing).
dantay_xv wrote:A long while back they actually did make Gaunt Corbec Larkin and co as models and put the rules out in WD....... I'd be surprised if they made them again.... but it would be damned cool and I am not even a Guard player.
Might be a rerelease of the first omnibus book, as that is what it was titled (like rereleasing Horus rising as a 5 year anniversary thing).
The rules were at least partially reprinted in the Chapter Approved collections.
I think there was a metal squad box of Ghosts, too. Basically lightly armored troopers with stealth cloaks. Were the rules variants on the Catachans?
? 
Oooops my chainsword just slipped 
