I have never written an Imperial guard list before, as I normally play Eldar, Orks and Necrons, but I am thinking of starting them and this is the list I'm thinking of using. I haven't bought any of the stuff yet so taking units out isn't a problem.

HQ

Company Command Squad
-Colonel 'Iron Hand' Straken
-Medipack
-Regimental Standard
-Vox Caster
-Grenade Launcher
-Plasma Gun

Troops

Platoon A

Platoon Command Squad
-Power Weapon
-Medipack
-Platoon Standard
-Vox Caster
-Grenade Launcher
-Melta Gun

Infantry Squad AA
-Melta Gun

Infantry Squad AB
-Melta Gun

Infantry Squad AC
-Melta Gun

Heavy Weapons Squad AA
-Lascannons

Heavy Weapons Squad AB
-Autocannons

Heavy Weapons Squad AC
-Heavy Bolters

Platoon B

Platoon Command Squad
-Power Weapon
-Platoon Standard
-Vox Caster
-Grenade Launcher
-Melta Gun
-Chimera - Pintle Mounted Heavy Stubber
- Extra Armour

Infantry Squad BA
-Flamer
-Grenade Launcher
-Chimera - Pintle Mounted Heavy Stubber
- Extra Armour

Infantry Squad BB
-Flamer
-Grenade Launcher
-Chimera - Pintle Mounted Heavy Stubber
- Extra Armour

Infantry Squad BC
-Flamer
-Grenade Launcher
-Chimera - Pintle Mounted Heavy Stubber
- Extra Armour

Heavy Support

Leman Russ Battle Tank
-Multi Meltas

Leman Russ Punisher
-Plasma Cannons

Fast Attack

Scout Sentinel Squad (3)
-Missile Launchers


I make this exactly 2,000 points, but these are my calculations so I might be wrong. The idea is that Platoon A sits back with the Leman Russes and shoots stuff/sits on objectives, while the sentinels come down one flank and Platoon B in its Chimeras comes down the other. I would be extremely grateful for any suggestions. Thanks.

So platoon A, with your 12" range melta weapons is sitting back? Also, drop the platoon standards on your pcs, they are worth jack all.

Ah, yeah, good point. I really should have spotted that. I'll take the melta guns out of the 3 infantry squads and the platoon command squad and I'll remove the platoon standards as well. Thanks.

The way i'm reading it is that you've given vox casters to everyone who can give orders but none to the infantry squads so they won't work. Also you have taken 2 special weapons for your infantry squads when you're only allowed one, and you arn't allowed to take that much stuff on the Company command squad and the Platoon command squad of Platoon A.

The standards and medipacks aren't doing much, the voxes aren't doing much, the squads with no weapons aren't doing much, and Straken isn't doing much (he should be pushing forward with the Chimeras). Multi meltas on the LRBT aren't doing much, and a Punisher aren't doing much. So there is a lot of this army not doing much.

Scout sentinels mounting AC is better, much better against transports, and light vehicles (mathammer doesn't lie).

Also only one special weapon on a squad is allowed.

If you have Straken, i would recommended charging both platoon forward with him, plus who doesn't love a suicide rush? But in you might want to consider it, with all those power weapons and attacks, all with furious charge? Definetly switch out the punisher for either another regular Russ with Plasma sponsons.

Ok, thanks everyone. I'll re-write the list a bit and then post it on this thread later (tommorow hopefully).

Ok, I've updated my list, and this is what it looks like at the minute.

HQ

Company Command Squad
-Colonel 'Iron Hand' Straken
-Medi-Pack
-Vox Caster
-Plasma Gun
-Chimera - Pintle Mounted Heavy Stubber
- Extra Armour

Troops

Platoon A

Platoon Command Squad A
-Medi-Pack
-Vox Caster
-Grenade Launcher

Infantry Squad AA
-Vox Caster

Infantry Squad AB
-Vox Caster

Infantry Squad AC
-Vox Caster

Heavy Weapons Squad AA
-Lascannons

Heavy Weapons Squad AB
-Autocannons

Heavy Weapon Squad AC
-Heavy Bolters

Platoon B

Platoon Command Squad
-Power Weapon
-Vox Caster
-Grenade Launcher
-Melta Gun
-Chimera -Pintle Mounted Heavy Stubber
-Extra Armour

Infantry Squad BA
-Flamer
-Vox Caster
-Chimera -Pintle Mounted Heavy Stubber
-Extra Armour

Infantry Squad BB
-Flamer
-Vox Caster
-Chimera -Pintle Mounted Heavy Stubber
-Extra Armour

Infantry Squad BC
-Flamer
-Vox Caster
-Chimera -Pintle Mounted Heavy Stubber
-Extra Armour

Heavy Support

Leman Russ Battle Tank
-Plasma Cannons

Leman Russ Battle Tank
-Plasma Cannons

Fast Attack

Scout Sentinel Squad
-Autocannons

After these changes I have 40pts spare, I was thinking about trying to shave 5pts off somewhere and then giving a Plasma Gun to each of my Infantry squads in platoon A, but if anyone has any other suggestions they would be really helpful. Also I was wondering If I am now within the rules with the amount of stuff that I have given to my Command Squads and if there are any other changes that could be made to improve my list.

Thanks.

I don't like sponsons because I like to keep mobile to protect against assault, If you are just going to sit there its fine I guess.


Scince you are taking Straken, I will assume that you want to assault, at least with the platoon without chimeras(If not, drop Straken).
Platoon A should be combined into one squad, given power weapons and a commisar. Hopfully they will also have assault weapons like meltas.


The list lacks anti-tank, you need to get some meltaguns in there!

The idea is that Platoon A sit back with the Leman Russes and shoot stuff, while the CCS and Platoon B move forward in their Chimera's and assault. I know guardsmen aren't renowned for CC prowess but I was more thinking along the lines of PCS and CCS get out of the Chimera's and attack in CC and the 3 infantry squads get out and shoot things at close range, only moving into CC if they are really needed.

I'm thinking of swapping the flamers on the infantry squads in platoon B for Melta guns, as these are going to be the only squads close enough to shoot a tank or 2 given the Melta gun's short range?

Do you think that I should give the CCS melta bombs, as they might not be needed given Stacken's strength 7 hit on the charge and the fact that he rolls 2D6 for armour penetration?

If you want to assault with IG, it needs to be through numbers, that means a combined squad of 30 guardsmen with powerweapons and a commissar. Going in with straken helps too.

Read this http://www.dakkadakka.com/wiki/en/Category:Imperial_Guard_Tactica
this helped me with my first army

The first thing you need to understand about Guard is that you need quantity over quality. Let that be your guiding principle when making your lists.
Here is some overall advice to help save some points and get more units.

Get rid of all the Vox casters. They are far too expensive for what they give you.
Heavy Stubbers aren't necessary on the Chimeras. You've already got more than 70 Guardsmen with Lasrifles, why pay for more Las shots?
Your Heavy Weapon Squads are confused. Heavy Bolters are terrible and Lascannons are WAY overcosted. Make them all Autocannons if you have to take them.
Infantry squads with zero special/heavy weapons are failures. Give them a heavy and a special weapon each or leave them at home. GL/AC or Melta/AC are good combinations.
Extra Armour is way too expensive on Chimeras, don't even bother with it.
Plasma Cannons are far too expensive on LRBT. In fact, I would ditch the LRBT full stop and get some Manticores instead.
You also need more Meltaguns.

With the above deductions and additions, you should have another 250 points to spend. I would recommend getting 2 Vendettas.

Vox casters are not worth it unless you put one on a blob, orders are useful but they are not to be relied upon under an circumstance, if they fail there is no detriment anyway.

Medi packs cost a fortune (30 pts!!!) and don't help your survival much, CCS and PSC are 5 man squads, let face it if you are being shot at, your dead, medi packs aren't going to stop that, besides, what casualties are you going to remove? a special weapon? or a guy with a lasgun, if it ain't adding to your firepower it ain't worth taking.

The most important thing to remember with guard is squads only do one thing, and one thing only, they then support each other, that is how guard functions, there is no other effective way to play it.

for the amount of extra armor and heavy stubbers you have you could buy 2 more chimeras, or 2 squads, ou a vendetta, or any number of other much more useful things.

firebase infantry squads should def have a HW, mobile should def have a special weapon.

AC is the best HWS weapon, anything else is a waste. Lascannons can go on infantry squads if you really want but ML or AC is better here too.

You need a ton more melta guns, and maybe a few plasma.

The infantry flamers can go on the chimera as HF and the squads get melta.

Plasma cannon sponsons are great on Executioners, not needed on anything else.

Rampage, over all a really good "first attempt" at the army list. Here is my advice....

If assault guard is your thing then combine squads and give them a Commissar w/ a P weapon. The Commissar plus two Sgt.s with power weapons can be pretty effective AND you've got 18 other guardsmen to soak up those wounds! Combat resolution won't matter due to the Commissar so if nothing else you tie up a squad or two of theirs in assault for the rest of the game! I once tied up a "Changer of Ways" for 4 turns (8 assault phases) with a 21 man squad of Guard!

As far as your Platoon B goes if they are going for the chimera rush another option is to take Vets. Their Sgt. can rock a Power fist and they can take THREE special weapons per squad. They can also upgrade to a 4+ save which would make them last longer in assault. As a general rule (for me anyway) my infantry platoons do the hanging back and shooting and my Vets "storm the front" (counter-strike reference there ).

Something else to consider, and this is just me, but if assault is really what you wanna do then look at Ogryn and Rough Ridders. Ogryn are beast, shooting and CC. The models for the Rough Riders kinda suck but Forge World has some awesome versions in Death Korp is your thing (it is mine ). Rough Rider conversions are also pretty neat so its worth a look.

Also if you really wanna upset people a squad of 50 conscripts w/ a Lord Commissar would make a beast of a unit. I myself would field it, just way too many models to try and move around, but it might strike your fancy.

Also a word to the wise about guard in general... Anything to avoid BS 3 do it! Like Plasma Cannon's on your Sents.

Other than that good luck my friend and may the Emperor be with you!

Commissar Rant wrote:Rampage, over all a really good "first attempt" at the army list. Here is my advice....

If assault guard is your thing then combine squads and give them a Commissar w/ a P weapon. The Commissar plus two Sgt.s with power weapons can be pretty effective AND you've got 18 other guardsmen to soak up those wounds! Combat resolution won't matter due to the Commissar so if nothing else you tie up a squad or two of theirs in assault for the rest of the game! I once tied up a "Changer of Ways" for 4 turns (8 assault phases) with a 21 man squad of Guard!

As far as your Platoon B goes if they are going for the chimera rush another option is to take Vets. Their Sgt. can rock a Power fist and they can take THREE special weapons per squad. They can also upgrade to a 4+ save which would make them last longer in assault. As a general rule (for me anyway) my infantry platoons do the hanging back and shooting and my Vets "storm the front" (counter-strike reference there ).

Something else to consider, and this is just me, but if assault is really what you wanna do then look at Ogryn and Rough Ridders. Ogryn are beast, shooting and CC. The models for the Rough Riders kinda suck but Forge World has some awesome versions in Death Korp is your thing (it is mine ). Rough Rider conversions are also pretty neat so its worth a look.

Also if you really wanna upset people a squad of 50 conscripts w/ a Lord Commissar would make a beast of a unit. I myself would field it, just way too many models to try and move around, but it might strike your fancy.

Also a word to the wise about guard in general... Anything to avoid BS 3 do it! Like Plasma Cannon's on your Sents.

Other than that good luck my friend and may the Emperor be with you!

You cannot be serious. The only advice worth taking out of all that is that Veterans are good.

Plasma cannons on Sentinels? Why on earth would you spend 80 points on a 12/10/10 Plasma Cannon. Armoured Sentinels have such small profiles so getting side armour shots is far too easy, and they can't even Outflank.
Large conscript squads don't scare anyone. They're gimped in assault and can't even hold objectives properly. Unless you're using them as cheap charge/movement blockers (like Kroot in Tau lists) don't even bother with them.


Here is a list that incorporates all of the advice I have given so far, while still staying true to the hybrid/orders theme you were going for.

CCS - 4 x Plasma Guns, Astropath, Chimera
CCS - 4 x Plasma Guns, Chimera

Veteran Squad - 3 Meltaguns, Autocannon, Chimera
Veteran Squad - 3 Meltaguns, Autocannon, Chimera
Veteran Squad - 3 Meltaguns, Autocannon, Chimera
Veteran Squad - 3 Meltaguns, Autocannon, Chimera
PCS - 4 Grenade Launchers
Infantry Squad - Grenade Launcher, Autocannon
Infantry Squad - Grenade Launcher, Autocannon
Infantry Squad - Grenade Launcher, Autocannon
Infantry Squad - Grenade Launcher, Autocannon

Vendetta
Vendetta
Scout Sentinel Squadron (3) - 3 x Autocannons

Manticore
Manticore

You'll notice that not many squads have upgrades beyond special/eavy weapons, this is intentional. IG don't work by giving everyone Carapace armour or superfluous upgrades like Vox casters or power weapons, they work by bring as many big guns to the table as possible and shooting your opponent to hell. The Astropath is there to help in situations where you need to use reserves, such as when you go second against another gunline list and don't want to lose your vendettas first turn. They also help the Sentinels get in sooner when Outflanking.
Oh, and PCS orders aren't really all that usefull, so having more of them isn't very beneficial. You've got two CCS anyway.

Hope that all helps. Guard can be quite unforgiving if not built correctly, so I'd hate for you to buy and model all these expensive upgrades only to realise later on that they're a waste.

Ok, thanks for the advice everyone. I like the above list, and will probably base my list on it when I re-post it to this thread at the weekend. The reason I went with 2 platoons instead of veterans is because my friend plays a guard and when he uses veterans and we end up playing annihilation they are really easy to get kill points out of. So yeah, thanks for all the advice everyone and I'll add an updated version of my list to the thread onn Saturday.

Theres a couple of concerns I would have about the suggested list. Firstly, the IS's. They will be super easy to get KP from, as they don't have great leadership and probably won't kill much. The vets have wasted points on the autocannons. Since they're melta vets they should be zooming towards the enemy to turn them into molten slag. That means that the autocannon can't fire because the unit moved. The scout sentinels are meh. I've never had luck with them so my suggestion is to avoid them. My biggest issue with the sentinels is that they can be gunned down by bolters, something I face a lot of at my FLGS. Lastly, the heavy support section doesn't really have much there. I like manticores, but prefer russes. Regardless of what you take, take 3

I agree with orkboy232 on the point about the Infantry Squads.

Why not put a commissar in one of the squads so that you can blob several squads together into an LD9, Stubborn unit?

I like to put several power weapons into the blob as well so that it can make short work of a unit of tactical marines, fire warriors, or guardians.

I also agree with his points about the melta vets autocannons and the scout sentinels but your meta may differ from mine.

I don't really see a huge problem with two Manticores instead of LRs but I prefer to go with only one of them and take something that has an AP2 or 3 pie plate tosser.

JB wrote:
I like to put several power weapons into the blob as well so that it can make short work of a unit of tactical marines, fire warriors, or guardians.

You get your guard blobs into HtH with Fire warriors? Give me some off those magic teleporters!

Guaiwu wrote:

JB wrote:
I like to put several power weapons into the blob as well so that it can make short work of a unit of tactical marines, fire warriors, or guardians.

You get your guard blobs into HtH with Fire warriors? Give me some off those magic teleporters!

It's easy when the Tau player is only 18" away and I get first turn. He uses small units of Fire Warriors (six figures each). I can move six and then using the order "Move, Move, Move" roll three dice and pick the highest for my run distance. Then he shoots me during his turn with twelve shots. My 31 figure blob is Stubborn, LD 9, so it keeps good morale and crushes the Tau Fire Warriors on Turn 2 Assault.

It's harder when the scenario is different and he puts his Fire Warriors further back.

orkboy232 wrote:Theres a couple of concerns I would have about the suggested list. Firstly, the IS's. They will be super easy to get KP from, as they don't have great leadership and probably won't kill much. The vets have wasted points on the autocannons. Since they're melta vets they should be zooming towards the enemy to turn them into molten slag. That means that the autocannon can't fire because the unit moved. The scout sentinels are meh. I've never had luck with them so my suggestion is to avoid them. My biggest issue with the sentinels is that they can be gunned down by bolters, something I face a lot of at my FLGS. Lastly, the heavy support section doesn't really have much there. I like manticores, but prefer russes. Regardless of what you take, take 3

While personally I agree with what you’re saying about the number of Infantry Squads, I was trying to keep the list roughly as close to the original as possible, hence their inclusion. Small numbers of IS squads can be very useful however – layering and DS protection is always good for a gunline list.

The Veteran Autocannons are simply there to give you options. Guard out shoots almost every army in the game, so as a Guard player, 90% of the games you play will generally involve you sitting back and waiting for the enemy to come to you. Kill point mission, or missions with small number of objectives, are a good example of this. Straight up Meltavets are hamstrung in this situation as they can only work at short range, which forces you to move your Chimeras closer to your opponent. This makes your Chimeras vulnerable to side armour shots, armies with strong mid-range firepower (such as GK Psycannon spam), and other Melta units. Giving the squads Autocannons (or any long range firepower, really) means they can actually contribute at > 24” range and don’t force you into making stupid, suicidal decisions with your precious Meltaguns.

This is Guard, remember? More firepower is good. Having more tactical options is good.

Oh, and about LRBT – there is nothing that a basic LRBT does that a Manticore doesn’t do better. Don’t let the AP3 fool you, they’ll still get their cover saves. Unless your opponent is an idiot who bunches up his space marines into nice little blobs and stays out of cover. I wouldn’t count on it though.

Your opponents are shooting Bolters at Av10? Lol. Each shot that hits has a 1/18 chance of doing anything, so your 220 point Tactical Squad killed a 45 point walker, yay for efficiency! Scout Sentinels with Multilasers/Autocannons have 42”-54” range, why are you Outflanking them with Rapid Fire distance of Bolters in the first place?

orkboy232 wrote:Why not put a commissar in one of the squads so that you can blob several squads together into an LD9, Stubborn unit?

Think about it. What do Guard squads, with no real CC options to speak of whatsoever, gain by being blobbed together? You can bubble wrap a tank with 10 men just as easily as you can with 20. You can lose 20 Guardsmen to a tank shock/flamer manoeuvre just as easily as you can lose 10. With 2 CCS you can FRFSRF two squads just as easily as one.

As a general rule you don’t really want to tarpit assaults for too long, if at all. So your 20 man blob is Stubborn? Sweet! That just means my assaulting unit is safe from return fire the next turn.

As a Guard player, you want that 10 man Infantry squad to die in one assault phase, leaving you free to shoot the assaulting unit to death in your next turn, while also bubble wrapping it with the next expendable Infantry squad. So that big scary TWC unit killed two of your Infantry Squads, big deal? You also held it up for two full turns, giving you plenty of time to re-position all your other units and concentrate on dismantling the rest of his army.

This is what good Guard players do and terrible ones do not. Please, run all your Chimeras 12” forward and unload your Meltavets in front of my tanks. Cheers.

orkboy232 wrote:I like to put several power weapons into the blob as well so that it can make short work of a unit of tactical marines, fire warriors, or guardians.

Come on, get serious. Guard blobs are on foot. They can only move 7-12” per turn. They receive assaults, they don’t initiate them.
What sort of Tau player runs his Fire Warriors into assault range of a non-mounted assault unit. The ones with 30” weapons that ignore your armour saves? Ditto for the Space Marines player. Why are Guardians, as fearsome in assault as they are, anywhere near combat in the first place?

Edit:

JB wrote:

Guaiwu wrote:

JB wrote:
I like to put several power weapons into the blob as well so that it can make short work of a unit of tactical marines, fire warriors, or guardians.

You get your guard blobs into HtH with Fire warriors? Give me some off those magic teleporters!

It's easy when the Tau player is only 18" away and I get first turn. He uses small units of Fire Warriors (six figures each). I can move six and then using the order "Move, Move, Move" roll three dice and pick the highest for my run distance. Then he shoots me during his turn with twelve shots. My 31 figure blob is Stubborn, LD 9, so it keeps good morale and crushes the Tau Fire Warriors on Turn 2 Assault.

It's harder when the scenario is different and he puts his Fire Warriors further back.

Ohh. Whenever your opponent is an idiot, and you're using a 250 point blob to kill 60 points worth of fire warriors. Gotcha.

JB wrote:

Guaiwu wrote:

JB wrote:
I like to put several power weapons into the blob as well so that it can make short work of a unit of tactical marines, fire warriors, or guardians.

You get your guard blobs into HtH with Fire warriors? Give me some off those magic teleporters!

It's easy when the Tau player is only 18" away and I get first turn. He uses small units of Fire Warriors (six figures each). I can move six and then using the order "Move, Move, Move" roll three dice and pick the highest for my run distance. Then he shoots me during his turn with twelve shots. My 31 figure blob is Stubborn, LD 9, so it keeps good morale and crushes the Tau Fire Warriors on Turn 2 Assault.

It's harder when the scenario is different and he puts his Fire Warriors further back.

Oh, your opponent puts fire warriors at 18", so I suppose he fields Aun'va and faces his rear armor towards you after the move as well?

unbeliever87 wrote:
Small numbers of IS squads can be very useful however – layering and DS protection is always good for a gunline list.

The Veteran Autocannons are simply there to give you options. ... Giving the squads Autocannons (or any long range firepower, really) means they can actually contribute at 24” range and don’t force you into making stupid, suicidal decisions with your precious Meltaguns.

This is Guard, remember? More firepower is good. Having more tactical options is good.

Oh, and about LRBT – there is nothing that a basic LRBT does that a Manticore doesn’t do better. Don’t let the AP3 fool you, they’ll still get their cover saves.

Think about it. What do Guard squads, with no real CC options to speak of whatsoever, gain by being blobbed together? You can bubble wrap a tank with 10 men just as easily as you can with 20. You can lose 20 Guardsmen to a tank shock/flamer manoeuvre just as easily as you can lose 10. With 2 CCS you can FRFSRF two squads just as easily as one.

As a general rule you don’t really want to tarpit assaults for too long, if at all. So your 20 man blob is Stubborn? Sweet! That just means my assaulting unit is safe from return fire the next turn.

As a Guard player, you want that 10 man Infantry squad to die in one assault phase, leaving you free to shoot the assaulting unit to death in your next turn, while also bubble wrapping it with the next expendable Infantry squad. So that big scary TWC unit killed two of your Infantry Squads, big deal? You also held it up for two full turns, giving you plenty of time to re-position all your other units and concentrate on dismantling the rest of his army.

I generally agree with the main points listed above. Plain LRBTs are worse than Manticores against most targets. Cascading single PIS makes sense most of the time.

unbeliever87 wrote:
Ohh. Whenever your opponent is an idiot, and you're using a 250 point blob to kill 60 points worth of fire warriors. Gotcha.

Two of three missions are based on objectives. Guardians, Tac Marines, and Fire Warriors are often used to guard those objectives. An IG power blob will take those objectives from most basic troop choices or at least tarpit and contest.

As you pointed out, IG work better with more tactical options. A single commissar in one PIS of a platoon gives you additional options. Having all of your squads as individual 10 man units is not always the best option.

Guaiwu wrote:

JB wrote:

Guaiwu wrote:

JB wrote:
I like to put several power weapons into the blob as well so that it can make short work of a unit of tactical marines, fire warriors, or guardians.

You get your guard blobs into HtH with Fire warriors? Give me some off those magic teleporters!

It's easy when the Tau player is only 18" away and I get first turn. He uses small units of Fire Warriors (six figures each). I can move six and then using the order "Move, Move, Move" roll three dice and pick the highest for my run distance. Then he shoots me during his turn with twelve shots. My 31 figure blob is Stubborn, LD 9, so it keeps good morale and crushes the Tau Fire Warriors on Turn 2 Assault.

It's harder when the scenario is different and he puts his Fire Warriors further back.

Oh, your opponent puts fire warriors at 18", so I suppose he fields Aun'va and faces his rear armor towards you after the move as well?

You can insult my opponents all you want, but sometimes the locations of objectives put basic troops where I can reach them with my infantry assaults. I should also point out that table set ups don't always give those Fire Warriors a 30" deep engagement area. Not everyone plays on tables that look like football fields.

Ok, this is probably a bit of a stupid question, but do you have to kill the entire platoon to get a kill point or does each squad in the platoon count as a kill point?

If you have to kill the entire platoon, I'll probably keep at least 1 platoon, if not, I'll go veterans.

If you "blob" squads together then they count as one kill point total. Just remember that the PCS cannot "blob" with the infantry squads. So your four squad platoon would give up two kill points: one for the 40 man unit made up of the four squads (if you chose to join all four together in just one unit) and one for the five man PCS.

That letter organization is Wrong.

It would be first platoon first squad. Squads are numbers not letters.

Ok, thanks, I think I'll probably go for at least one platoon then.

Thanks for the info on squad organization, I'll correct it when I next post an updated version of my list to this thread.

Don't forget a commissar in one of the squads. A blob really needs that LD 9 stubborn to ensure that it holds or contests an objective.

Thank you all for your help, here is a further updated army list and criticism / suggestions would be appreciated, thanks.


HQ

Company Command Squad
-Colonel 'Iron Hand' Straken
-Plasma Gun
-Chimera

Troops

Platoon 1

Platoon Command Squad 1
-Grenade Launcher

(The 3 Infantry Squads below are 'blobbed')
Infantry Squad 1.1
-Commisar

Infantry Squad 1.2

Infantry Squad 1.3

Heavy Weapons Squad 1.1
-Lascannons

Heavy Weapons Squad 1.2
-Autocannons

Heavy Weapon Squad 1.3
-Heavy Bolters


Veteran Squad 1
-Power Weapon (Sergeant)
-3 Melta Guns
-Grenadiers
-Chimera

Veteran Squad 2
-Power Weapon (Sergeant)
-3 Melta Guns
-Grenadiers
-Chimera

Veteran Squad 3
-Power Weapon (Sergeant)
-3 Melta Guns
-Grenadiers
-Chimera

Heavy Support

Leman Russ Battle Tank
-Plasma Cannons

Manticore Rocket Launcher

Fast Attack

Scout Sentinel Squad
-Autocannons

Firstly, I make this list to be 1910 points, so if anyone has any suggestions to how I could use these 90 spare points please post to this thread.

The reason I kept Straken is because the background that I was planning on using for this force was that it was to be an example of the Catachan II, also he's a CC beast and the fact that he gives all friendly units within 12" Furious Charge and Counter-Attack will give my veteran squads (which I plan to keep nearby) more of an advantage in combat. I know guard aren't suppossed to be used in combat but I figured it would be fun to have a load of guardsmen charge various enemy squads and possibly win the combat (maybe).

I also included one of each the LRBT and the Manticore simply because I like Leman Russes. Manticores seem beastly but once they have used all 4 of their missiles they are pretty ineffective for the rest of the game, so having another vehicle that can keep causing havoc seemed sensible.

If anyone also has any ideas to how I could cut down on points a bit to squeeze some Ogryns in a Chimera into my list that would also be good. Thanks.

Well, the simple answer to the Orgyn question is you ditch the blob. Ogryns, being an elite choice are really something you build an army around, not add into a army like an after thought.

I will also point out Chimeras are terrible assault vehicles due to the rear ramp. Your probably hoping the Chimeras get blown up and you survive the explosion. You can't assault the turn you disembark, so your going to be exposed to at least one turn of fire. The soonest you can assault is turn 2 if you disembark round 1. Either you give up the Chimera and foot slog it or you ditch the Grenadiers and the Fists.

I will have to support the folks who are telling you to ditch the heavy bolters for Auto Cannons. Str 5, AP 4, 3 shots, 36" range vs Str 7, AP 4, 2 shots, 48" range. Use ACs to pop light AV vehicles like Rhinos, Trukks, Razorbacks, ect. They are also good anti-hoard. I honestly would ditch the Heavy Bolter Heavy Weapon Squad and add ACs and Meltaguns to those 3 naked PISs.

Also, you know what? I will actually suggest you get a second CCS to sit back with your two heavy weapon squads and your blob squad just to give them Bring it Down! to make them twin linked so they actually hit something. Heck, if you got 10pts, throw a Vox in one squad in the blob and the new CCS. Give the new CCS 3 meltaguns and use it for rear area defence against DSing units. If you can afford it, give them a Chimera for mobility and responce value. Multi-Laser and Heavy Bolter here is a good thing for the Chimera.

Grenade Launchers are dogs... Str 3 frag and Str 6 AP 4 Krak... the only thing you can do is kill infantry with the Kraks. Every special weapon slot needs to be filled with either Meltaguns or Plasmaguns. There is an arguement for flamers to deal with hoards and troops in cover, but I am sold on the heavy flamers on Chimeras to deal with this situation. You do this and I think your going to be scrambling to find points.

I agree with BlkTom that Chimeras are awful assault vehicles. They're much better for drive-by shootings where the vehicle moves 6" or less so that it can fire one weapon + defensive weapon and the squad inside can fire five models (3 special weapons + two lasrifles) or for simply tank shocking onto an objective with a squad inside.

I'm not completely convinced that autocannons are always better than heavy bolters. Mathhammer would show you that the three heavy bolters are more likely to kill infantry than the autocannons, however I use all autocannons because my Chimeras have heavy bolters and the ACs are more versatile (longer range and some anti-vehicle capability).

What's more troublesome is using heavy weapon teams at all without a lord commissar or a regimental standard in your list. With LD7 the heavy weapons are going to run off the table about 41.2% of the time when they lose a model, and it isn't hard for your opponent to pop one since Instant Death applies for S6 or better weapons (Psycannons, autocannons, Lootas, Long Fangs with missle launchers, and every IG artillery option). I occasionally use HWTs but I include a lord commissar to camp within 6" of them so that they are LD 10 and I often have my regimental standard within 12" as well (to allow a re-roll). This means that they pass leadership checks 99.3% of the time.

You have other options that I wouldn't use - Sentinels, carapace armor, and PWs in the veteran squads but it's your army and I can see how these options fit into your theme. They won't handicap you like the HWTs without a leadership bump will.

Why no special weapons in the plain infantry squads? Flamers, melta guns, and grenade launchers are all useful depending on your meta and tactics. The grenade launchers work best for me but that's because I move my squads. Plasma guns IMO are best suited for veterans or the CCS.

Ok, I'll forget about the Ogryns then.

You make a good point about the Chimeras, just wondering how you would suggest I get Straken into assault, I want to keep him because of the background for the list. I thought that if the transport that the unit is in had not moved that turn, the embarked unit could get out and act normally, so the plan was to move the chimeras up, leave the veterans/CCS in them until the next turn, and then get out and assault without being shot at. I can see though that in order for this to be effective (if I am correct with the rule) the rear armour would have to be facing the squad that I am charging, and this would probably result in a lot of dead Chimeras.

I think your right with the AC's for HB's and I will change that in the next list I add. Giving the naked squads Plasma guns is also a good idea as melta guns have too short a range considering that these squads are going to be sitting back.

The idea for the new CCS also sounds pretty good, but I think that the lord Commisar suggestion is also valid as well. Thanks.

Rampage wrote:You make a good point about the Chimeras, just wondering how you would suggest I get Straken into assault, I want to keep him because of the background for the list. I thought that if the transport that the unit is in had not moved that turn, the embarked unit could get out and act normally, so the plan was to move the chimeras up, leave the veterans/CCS in them until the next turn, and then get out and assault without being shot at. I can see though that in order for this to be effective (if I am correct with the rule) the rear armour would have to be facing the squad that I am charging, and this would probably result in a lot of dead Chimeras.

You can move the Chimeras within 12", pop smoke (if you still have it), and keep the squad inside. Then the next turn, you can pivot the Chimera during the movement phase, dismount the squad and move it 6". Then it can assault 6". Pivots don't count as movement. Just make sure you pivot on your center and tell your opponent that you are making a pivot. [Edit: BlkTom pointed out that passengers cannot dismount AND assault if the vehicle pivots. See p. 67 of the rulebook]

The drawback to this method is that you're sitting within 12" of the enemy who probably has some form of anti-vehicle in his unit. He can assault your Chimera or shoot it. While smoke might protect you from the shooting, nothing is going to stop the assault. Even models with only S4 can harm a Chiimera in hand-to-hand but your real concern is S5 or better attacks (krak grenades, melta bombs, PF/PK, thunderhammers and nasty monsters/characters) that can penetrate the transport's armor. If you moved at cruising speed, he will need 6s to hit your vehicle. That seems like good protection but if they get six or more attacks then something is going to hit your vehicle. Your opponent is hoping to wreck or explode your vehicle and cause a pinning check that you have a 28.8% chance of failing. If pinned, you can't assault and he will will assault you during his next turn.

Can't pivot and disembark and still assault as per the disembarking rules, pg 67 base rules book. Only way to disembark and assault is not moving the vehicle at all. Disembarking counts as moving so you only have that 2" deployment from the ramp in back. You can shoot, but since you count as moving you have those normal restrictions. You can then move your assault distance, but only if the target is 6" or less, otherwise you fail your assault and don't move. After you disembark, you can now move the vehicle as normal.

Assaulting from a Chimera is a very bad idea. If you jump through enough hoops you can pull it off.

BlkTom wrote:Can't pivot and disembark and still assault as per the disembarking rules, pg 67 base rules book. Only way to disembark and assault is not moving the vehicle at all. Disembarking counts as moving so you only have that 2" deployment from the ramp in back. You can shoot, but since you count as moving you have those normal restrictions. You can then move your assault distance, but only if the target is 6" or less, otherwise you fail your assault and don't move. After you disembark, you can now move the vehicle as normal.

Assaulting from a Chimera is a very bad idea. If you jump through enough hoops you can pull it off.

Thanks for the correction! In eight years of playing IG, I've never assaulted from a Chimera. It always seemed like a bad idea before and now in 5th Edition it also seems nearly impossible to physically perform.

Rampage, I just don't see why you think an assault from Chimeras is a good tactic. There is a time for IG to assault but it is typically in a cascading gun line with your assault units at the final layer of the cascade. The enemy assaults and crushes two or three successive lines of IG infantry squads but gets shot up during three to four rounds of shooting. Then your assault line finally charges in against a greatly weakened enemy. Straken with a regimental standard and a Lord Commissar in a veteran squad would or Ogryn squad would make decent final layers (though pricey).

NP JB. Those rules apply to Rhinos and most other vehicles unless they have a special rule, like a Land Raider with it's assault ramp. That is why the best assault group are foot sloggers.

IG can do it, you have like 5 ways of doing it really. You have Blob squads, Vet/Platoon squads with CC focus, Penal squads, Rough Rider focused and Ogryn focused. You seriously consider things like Priests, Creed and Kell (For Cadia! is awesome), Kamir, Chenkov, Yarrik, and Straken.

Could you see 30 Ogryns with two Tech Priests attached to two squads? Yarrick and Straken as HQ choices following them up attached to squads with a Priests attached to their units and some Penal or Vet units as troops CC geared out with Commissars and more Priests (since you can have 5 of the bastards) following them in?

You can do it Rampage, but you really can't do it effectivily via mech. Even Grav Chuting in counts as deep striking so you can't assault that turn (if you survive the insertion).

I use Yarrick and a PW commissar in my gunline as one of my final layers. He's great in that role near my HWTs to keep them LD10 and to keep my cascade PIS stubborn. He will assault if necessary once the enemy breaks through all of my PIS (which should mean the enemy is very shot up).

I have used a techpriest with three servitors to do a "final layer" assault. They had a priest with them and ended up beating an Ork Slugga Boy squad (by killing nine of them). Unfortunately, the Orks made their leadership test and the battle went downhill the next turn.

I didn't think that Techpriests were independent characters? It's one of their many Achilles Heels.

Ok then, I'll completely forget about the Chimera idea, and that should save me a few points to bulk out my force a bit more. I'll probably go with JB's idea of counter-charging, and I'll post an updated list to this thread soon. Thanks.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Ok, here is a revised version of my list, I have removed the Chimeras and the Sentinels and set about replacing them with other stuff.

HQ

Company Command Squad
-Colonel 'Iron Hand' Straken
-Regimental Standard

Lord Commissar
-Power Weapon
-Carapace Armour

Elites

Ogryns (has Lord Commissar in it)
-2 extra Ogryns

Troops

Platoon 1

Platoon Command Squad 1
-Plasma Guns (4x)

(The 3 Infantry Squads below are 'blobbed')
Infantry Squad 1.1
-Commisar
-Plasma Gun

Infantry Squad 1.2
-Plasma Gun

Infantry Squad 1.3
-Plasma Gun

Heavy Weapons Squad 1.1
-Lascannons

Heavy Weapons Squad 1.2
-Autocannons

Heavy Weapon Squad 1.3
-Heavy Bolters


Veteran Squad 1
-Plasma Guns (3x)

Veteran Squad 2
-Plasma Guns (3x)

Veteran Squad 3
-Plasma Guns (3x)

Heavy Support

Leman Russ Battle Tank
-Plasma Cannons

Manticore Rocket Launcher


Right, the plan with this would be that everything stays back and shoots as much as they can. When / If the enemy hit my lines the CC element (Ogryns, CCS, possibly veterans, etc) charge in and cause some pain. The ogryns are to stay relatively close to the heavy weapons squads to allow them to benefit from the Lord Commisar, the CCS is to stay near the veterans so that Straken can give them furious charge and orders, and the PCS continues to shoot at things while again, issuing orders.

I make this list at 1900 points, so what are your opinions / thoughts on what the remaining points could be used upon. Also, do you think that the Ogryns fit into this list, and am I being a bit excessive with the Plasma Guns?

Thanks for your help and any criticism / comments would be appreciated. Thanks.

Yeah, I think you went alittle over on Plasma where it hurts your AT. I think Straken needs two Melta in his CCS and you need to make 1 or 2 squads of Vets meltas.

I understand your idea or forcing stuff to go through a hail of plasma and oh God will this tear up any hoard lists and works as great light AT. But you still need to deal with Battlewagons, Land Raiders, Lemon Russ tanks, and other AV 14 stuff. Even with Bring it Down! and 3 shots you may not Pen or glance.

If you have 100pts, consider Yarrick over the Lord Commissiar and upgrade the Heavy Bolters to Lascannons. You also could consider some more heavy support to further pound on stuff coming in.

No looking to bad, really! Good luck!

The thing you have to understand is BS4 in a guard army is something of a rarity. Nearly everything we have has to deal with a paltry BS3, so when an opportunity arises to equip a BS4 model with a special weapon, TAKE IT! I am talking specifically about your CCS. You want Straken, fine. He's an assault character, so take an assault weapon. I'm talking Meltaguns. On EVERY model in the CCS.
As for your PCS, I recommend either Grenade Launchers or Flamers. GL to give you the option of causing a few wounds on horde armies or popping (very) light tanks in a pinch, or Flamers to just cook hordes. The reason why I recommend these weapons and not Plasma/Melta is because the BS3 starts to hurt, and they're just too expensive on such a fragile and ultimately inconsequential unit.

Chimeras are an absolute god-send when it comes to bunkering down and laying down a world of ranged hurt. This is where the issue of Straken comes in, as he is an assault character, and is wasted if he's stuck in a Chimera, yet a Chimera adds another level of safety and allows all your special weapon models to shoot from the top hatch. So ultimately, I guess the choice is yours.

I will personally state I am not a fan of the Lord Commissar/Ogryn combo. Just too many points.

Oh and finally, you went way over the top with Plasma. 2/3 of your veterans AT LEAST should be melta, because if not vehicles will just ruin your day.

Anyway this list has a lot of flaws

Your strategy is sit back and shoot then counter charge with the blob...for 2k points for shooting you only have 1 Battle cannon w/ 2 plasma cannon sponsons, 1 Storm Eagle rockets, 3 BS3 Lascannons, 3 BS3 autocannons, 3 BS3 heavy bolters. Pretty much very underwhelming. For assault, you only have 1 Lord commissar and 5 ogryns, and a 30 man blob with a commissar and no power weapons whatsoever and instead they have plasma guns; pretty much all over the place.

@OP what do you want to do with your army? I suggest you focus on what you want to do first before you start adding random units into the list.

1.Straken is best used with his circus...search "Straken's flying circus"(NOTE: check out the army first before buying 9 valkyries if ever you go with the flying circus).Besides you're getting him for assault then you let him sit back and do nothing for a few turns...pretty much a waste of points.

2.Veterans are best used with chimeras whether they bring plasma or melta. They're just too easy to kill without extra protection. (Pretty much dimmy52's advice is good)

3.Powerblobs need power weapons or else they'll just be an expensive delay unit/objective holder.

4.HWS Heavybolters are useless in your list, since you have a lot of anti infantry, go autocannons same points but just better overall helps with killing transports also.

5.Lord commissar + ogryn combo is expensive and the army has to be build around them, you do not just add these just because you want them in your army.

6.LRBT w/ Plasma sponsons to me is too much expensive. The humble vanilla LRBT is enough and worth the cost, getting the plasma sponsons make it too expensive.

Ok, I've updated my list again, and this is what it looks like.

HQ

Company Command Squad
-Colonel 'Iron Hand' Straken
-Regimental Standard
-Melta Guns (3x)

Commissar Yarrick

Troops

Platoon 1

Platoon Command Squad 1
-Grenade Launchers (4x)

(The 3 Infantry Squads below are 'blobbed')
Infantry Squad 1.1
-Commisar - Power Weapon
-Power Weapon (Sergeant)
-Plasma Gun

Infantry Squad 1.2
-Power Weapon (Sergeant)
-Plasma Gun

Infantry Squad 1.3
-Power Weapon (Sergeant)
-Plasma Gun

Heavy Weapons Squad 1.1
-Lascannons

Heavy Weapons Squad 1.2
-Autocannons

Heavy Weapon Squad 1.3
-Lascannons


Veteran Squad 1
-Melta Guns (3x)
-Chimera

Veteran Squad 2
-Melta Guns (3x)
-Chimera

Veteran Squad 3 (Has Commisar Yarrick in it)
-Plasma Guns (3x)

Heavy Support

Leman Russ Battle Tank
-Heavy Bolters

Manticore Rocket Launcher

This is 1905pts at the minute, so if anyone has any ideas to how I could use the extra 95pts I would appreciate them.

The flying circus looks brutal, but I don't really have the money to buy 9 Valkyries/Vendettas at the minute. I still decided to keep Straken though, as his 'cold steel and courage' rule, and the fact that he is only 95pts and still a close combat monster seem to make him worth it even if he is not in combat for the first couple of turns. But I would appreciate your thoughts on this.

Right, so the plan is: The platoon sit back and shoot as much as they can, Yarrick and his veteran squad stand in the centre to give as much of the platoon 'Stubborn' as he can, while the veterans set to with the Plasma Guns. The PCS and CCS also stay nearby to use orders effectively while the PCS shoot with their grenade launchers and the CCS make a mess of any enemy transports. The LRBT and Manticore cause as much carnage as they can and the veteran squads in the Chimeras doing drive-bys on enemy vehicles.

Does this list seem any better? Once again I would appreciate any comments / criticism that you might have of the list. Thanks!

Why is Yarrick a assault unit with Veterans with plasmas who cannot assault after firing rapid fire weapons? I would ditch Yarrick and add a Lord Commissar to stop the HWTs running off when they take some pain. Btw where is this unit meant to be going? putting Yarrick so the Platoon can get stubborn doesn't make any difference as the Commissar gives the Platoon stubborn anyway.

Not enough tanks also. You've got two Chimeras moving towards the opponent and personally I wouldn't bat a eye lid at this. You have a single Manticore and a medicore Leman Russ. I would either take double Manticores but I feel double Demolishers would suit you better because they can advance with the two Chimeras.

In all honesty you are going for a foot list with a few vehicles and it doesn't work. The low amount of armour will attract anti tank and will be taken out without issues. I would keep the list as mostly foot but add Creed for 24" order radius. I do know know what you have Strakken on foot with meltas for as they won't get into melta range. I would then add artillery which can hit behind terrain etc and get cover which would minimise the anti tank.

If you want a typical gunline with counter assault check this list out from my blog: http://www.imperiusdominatus.com/2010/11/army-lists-imperial-guard-gunline-2000.html

Ok, so I'll swap Yarrick back for the Lord Commissar and then use the remaining points to change the LRBT into 2 Demolishers.

I like what you've done with the Colossus and the Medusa in your blog but as I already have 2 demolishers and a Manticore there isn't enough room for another Heavy Sup choice, as I want the 2 Demolishers to be seperate.

Also, what would you suggest for the side sponsons for the demolishers, and which special weapons do you think I should take instead of the Meltas in the CCS? As it seems a pity to not use their BS of 4.

I have decided not to take Creed though. I know he's really awesome but I was wanting to do a Catachan themed list. And having Creed leading a Catachan army doesn't seem realistic.

Thanks for your help.

No side sponsons on the tanks they just cost too much. Multi meltas might be handy for two S8 AP1 shots.

You're using there ballistic skill when using meltas as you shoot them. Just put them in a transport so they can get close and sorted.

He doesn't have to be Creed. He could be John "Devil Boots" Malone or whoever you want him to be. He just uses Creeds rules

Ah, ok, I will use 'John' instead of Straken in my command squad (I only just came across this sort of thing when I was reading the Nid codex this afternoon.

I'll probably put Multimeltas on the demolishers and give the CCS a Chimera, but I'll still keep the Chimera within 24" of the bulk of my force so that 'John' can give orders such as, 'For the glory of Catachan!' and the suchlike.

Thanks.

HQ

Company Command Squad
-Colonel Greiss (Creed)
-Regimental Standard
-Plasma Guns (3x)

Lord Commissar
-Power Weapon
-Plasma Pistol
-Carapace Armour

Troops

Platoon 1

Platoon Command Squad 1
-Grenade Launchers (4x)

(The 3 Infantry Squads below are 'blobbed')
Infantry Squad 1.1
-Commisar - Power Weapon
-Power Weapon (Sergeant)
-Plasma Gun

Infantry Squad 1.2
-Power Weapon (Sergeant)
-Plasma Gun

Infantry Squad 1.3
-Power Weapon (Sergeant)
-Plasma Gun

Heavy Weapons Squad 1.1
-Lascannons

Heavy Weapons Squad 1.2
-Autocannons

Heavy Weapon Squad 1.3
-Lascannons


Veteran Squad 1
-Melta Guns (3x)
-Chimera

Veteran Squad 2
-Melta Guns (3x)
-Chimera

Veteran Squad 3
-Plasma Guns (3x)

Heavy Support

Leman Russ Demolisher

Leman Russ Demolisher

Manticore Rocket Launcher

Ok, here is a further updated version of my list. Colonel Greiss is basicaly Creed but with a name change to make him more Catachany. The list is also now exactly 2,000pts.

The plan is that the platoon sits back and shoots stuff, the Lord Commissar staying near to the HWS's to keep them from running off. The Veteran squad with Plasma guns and the Manticore also stay back and shoot while the PCS and Greiss' CCS give orders and continue to shoot. The 2 melta armed veteran squads trundle forward in their Chimeras accompanied by the demolishers to cause carnage. In the event of enemy units charging my battle line Greiss will use orders like 'for the honour of Catachan (Cadia)' to try and lead a counter-charge.

Ok, once again any comments / criticism would be appreciated. Thanks for the help.

I think you want Kell, as when your giving Orders the units now use 'Greiss's' leadership instead of their own. Remember you can't give orders to Vehicles or units in vehicles (including the CCS to itself if it is in a vehicle).

Your using a standard anyways, so you would need to get 70pts. Problem is I am not sure where you can get the points for him.... maybe drop the two Chimeras from the melta vets (giving one to your CCS), mess with the Lord Commissar, ect... I am not really sure. Play without Kell and see if you need him or not. Maybe with the Lord Commissar's Aura of Discipline you don't need him.

I still think GLs are dogs. You will find yourself very disappointed with them if you play them I bet. If your gonna go GL or flamers, take flamers... flamers don't care what your BS is, it is a template.

I think your list is really shaping up! It is down to a few minor tweaks!

Ok, I'll swap the GLs for Flamers then. I'll see about Kell, as I'll probably get the Creed model anyway and then convert him a bit to make him suitable for the Catachan version of him and am I correct in thinking that Kell comes in the same pack? I think I'll play a couple of games without him and then if there is definately a problem without Kell in the list then i'll make some room for him by removing the stuff that performed the worst.

Thanks for your help!


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Here is the list again.

HQ

Company Command Squad
-Colonel Greiss (Creed)
-Regimental Standard
-Plasma Guns (3x)

Lord Commissar
-Power Weapon
-Plasma Pistol
-Carapace Armour

Troops

Platoon 1

Platoon Command Squad 1
-Flamers (4x)

(The 3 Infantry Squads below are 'blobbed')
Infantry Squad 1.1
-Commisar - Power Weapon
-Power Weapon (Sergeant)
-Plasma Gun

Infantry Squad 1.2
-Power Weapon (Sergeant)
-Plasma Gun

Infantry Squad 1.3
-Power Weapon (Sergeant)
-Plasma Gun

Heavy Weapons Squad 1.1
-Lascannons

Heavy Weapons Squad 1.2
-Autocannons

Heavy Weapon Squad 1.3
-Lascannons


Veteran Squad 1
-Melta Guns (3x)
-Chimera

Veteran Squad 2
-Melta Guns (3x)
-Chimera

Veteran Squad 3
-Plasma Guns (3x)

Heavy Support

Leman Russ Demolisher

Leman Russ Demolisher

Manticore Rocket Launcher

Ok, the plan hasn't changed, and neither has the points cost. I am simply re-posting (with the change from GLs to flamers in the PCS) to see if you think it is time to start playing games with and then building the list or if there are a few extra tweaks that could/should be done first?

Thanks for all of your help.

One plasma gun in the CCS? Are you kidding? Plasma in Straken's squad is a mistake to begin with, but one?

Swap the LRBT for an Executioner if you like plasma. The Executioner is the pick of the LR litter. LRBT´s are pretty mediocre.

Blobs should have power weapons and melta guns. I like melta bombs too.

Veterans should never think about assaulting. If you want to fight HtH, go with blobs. Blobs can fight, veterans should shoot. Give the power weapons to the blobs.

Dump the grenadiers, those upgrades are crazy expensive. Use the points for more things with guns.

Autocannons are better than heavy bolters and the same price. Lascannons are dubious value.

I have never actually seen a Manticore accomplish anything. They do attract a great deal of attention, which probably explains why they don't usually accomplish much. The morale of the story is, it's difficult to protect one vehicle in this game.

Can I just double check, is this for the above list or the first list that I posted to this thread?

I've removed Straken from the CCS and replaced him with a Creed equivilant, I've changed the LRBT for demolishers, but if this doesn't go too well I might think about an Executioner.

I'm not a big fan of giving the sergeant melta bombs, simply because of his strength 3, admittedly he could penetrate land raiders etc, but only on a double six,, and you're going to be glancing Trukks on a 7, which is the average roll for 2D6.

The veterans aren't primarily fighting anymore, although they could counter-charge if necessary. I have also dropped grenadiers.

I have swapped the HB's for Lascannons, simply for the ability to be firing 6 Lascannons at enemy vehicles every turn just from the HWS's.

I might see about the manticore though, I'll see how it performs in games.

Thanks for your help.

Rampage wrote:Can I just double check, is this for the above list or the first list that I posted to this thread?

I think there is a list at the bottom of the first page, I may have commented prematurely.

Rampage wrote:I've removed Straken from the CCS and replaced him with a Creed equivilant,

I like Creed a little better, due to the range he has. I've never actually used either one, but it's partly lazyness. I do want to try Creed.

Rampage wrote: I've changed the LRBT for demolishers, but if this doesn't go too well I might think about an Executioner.

I've had very little luck with the Demolisher and I've played it a bunch. It usually does draw attention.

Rampage wrote:I'm not a big fan of giving the sergeant melta bombs, simply because of his strength 3, admittedly he could penetrate land raiders etc, but only on a double six,, and you're going to be glancing Trukks on a 7, which is the average roll for 2D6.

Melta bombs are S8 with 2d6 penetration. They're useful for preventing your 250+ point blob from being tied up all game by a Sentinel or a War Walker.

Rampage wrote:The veterans aren't primarily fighting anymore, although they could counter-charge if necessary. I have also dropped grenadiers.

I have swapped the HB's for Lascannons, simply for the ability to be firing 6 Lascannons at enemy vehicles every turn just from the HWS's.

HWS's are dubious value, they are cheap and they can accomplish things sometimes, but they are easy kill points, especially if there are many S6 and above weapons about. That said, I always run two AC units. AC seem to be the best value. They're actually better against AV10 and 11 and I think even 12 (but I'm not sure) than lascannons due to the extra shot. They are also cheaper. Unless you run into a lot of AV13 spam, AC's are probably a better bet.

Rampage wrote:I might see about the manticore though, I'll see how it performs in games.

Thanks for your help.

Do not put it near a board edge where outflankers can get to it. Use troops to prevent Wolf Scouts or Kommandos with Snikrot from coming on near it when playing those armies. Screen it when there are deep strikers as well. Also try to keep another vehicle in front of it to give it cover if there is no cover available. It will draw fire.

Ok, thanks. I normally fight a CSM list that includes 3 defilers although i do fight other things, so I'll probably swap one of the HWS Lascannons for ACs.

I may have got mixed up with the Monstrous creatures special rule against vehicles and melta bombs, srry about that.

I'm not really sure about Demolishers. I've never uesd them before and I think I might try a couple of games with them and see how they do and if they don't do well what would you suggest I replace them with given what I am trying to do with them?

Thanks for your help.

Rampage wrote:
I'm not a big fan of giving the sergeant melta bombs, simply because of his strength 3, admittedly he could penetrate land raiders etc, but only on a double six,, and you're going to be glancing Trukks on a 7, which is the average roll for 2D6.

Melta bombs are S8 with 2d6 penetration. They're useful for preventing your 250+ point blob from being tied up all game by a Sentinel or a War Walker.

They are indeed Str 8 with 2d6 penetration.

But...

You get only one attack with a grenade, even if you have more than one attack normally. To hit a Walker you only hit on a 6, period (pg 73, BRB, 3rd paragraph down on the left). Vehicles use the normal hit on a 6 if it went 12", 4+ if it moved 6", and auto hit if it didn't move at all. Problem is a vehicle can just drive away from close combat, probably doing a tank shock along the way.

Melta bombs are really a desperate choice if you have 5pts to waste IMO. I would rather upgrade a squad to a flamer, or upgrade a flamer to a melta gun, or upgrade a melta gun to a plasma gun with those 5pts than buy a melta bomb. Heck, give the whole squad Krak grenades for 5 points.

But, that is why giving a Vet Squad Demolitions and thus give all 10 guys melta bombs is not a bad way of doing it. Couple of those guys are gonna roll a 6 if they attack a walker. If they get attacked by one..it depends on what type... a Blood Angel dread with cheater claws (blood talons I think is the real name?) can wipe out your entire squad before you get a chance to attack back on your Init 3.

Look at special weapon squads, good place to put flamer weapons, can assault enemy units moving into assault range. Reasonably cheap.

Ok, so do you think I should try and scavenge 60 pts to give the veterans in the Chimeras Demolitions?

I rarely play against blood angels, and I have never actually faced a Furioso with blood talons before. As I say, I normally play against a CSM lash list which uses 3 defilers, 2 Daemon princes of Slaanesh with wings and lash, and 3 squads of Death guard in Rhinos. But I'm fed up of playing it because the result is inevitable (I lose). So I'm trying to make this list a sort of 'take all comers' list.

Thanks for your help.

To be honest, no... I wouldn't put Demolitions on your vets unless they are not mounted in a Chimera. Chimera are just like rhinos... terrible to assault from. The Demo charge is really cool, but that is alot of points to pay for them.

To be honest, if your mounted in a Chimera and you come across a walker, you want to shoot it before it can shoot you. Penetrations on a walker are bad, as destroying a single weapon on a arm destroys the whole arm (possibly taking out multiple weapons).

The naked plasmagun Vet squad is something you should re-consider... if you can't mount it in a chimera, I wold get Sentries on it or scrap it all together to give you points to go elsewhere... that is 115pts. That could be Kell right there plus some extra gear...

As for models...a Standard Bearer can't have a powerfist normally, so just make one with a powerfist and call it Kell. Strap a sword to his side as his power weapon (weird, I know, a power weapon AND a fist) and give him carapace armor. You can easily do this via a Cadia Carapice torso, Catch Head, Legs, and Arms with a power fist. Heck, you can even make the base look like he planted the standard and has his weapons out. I hate the little speaker thing on Kell's shoulders, but since it isn't real equipment, you don't need it.

You can do the same thing for Creed... give him two holsters or two las-pistols and any other equipment the character is suppose to have and now you don't even have to worry about 'count's as'.

Ok, I think I'll probably scrap the PG vets and get 'kell' and some other stuff then. Can any squad in a platoon capture objectives?

Thanks.

Rampage wrote:Ok, I think I'll probably scrap the PG vets and get 'kell' and some other stuff then. Can any squad in a platoon capture objectives?

Thanks.

Yup, they all count as troops for capturing objectives. So a Heavy Weapon Squad sitting on a back objective counts as holding it.

Excellent, so the objective missions shouldn't be a problem. Thanks.

I would keep at least two veteran squads with plasma guns in Chimeras. Swap out the PGs in the plain infantry squads for melta guns.

When you face your CSM opponent, plasma vets are going to come in very handy against the Demon Princes (first priority) and Plague Marines (second priority). Just make sure that something else is cracking open the Rhinos so that you can get full plasma goodness on Nurgle's finest. It's best to combine two plasma vet squads on one squad of Plague Marines in the same turn, especially if you aren't close enough for rapid fire. It takes a lot of shooting to destroy them, even if they only have six or seven marines. If you catch them in the open with two plasma vet squads on rapid fire, you can do a lot of damage. Just make sure that you are firing from the top hatches of the Chimeras. While it reduces your lasgun firepower, that doesn't hurt you much. Six plasma guns and four lasguns firing from two Chimeras within 12" will likely kill 6-7 marines. On the other hand, if you dismount to get full fire and fail to kill the space marine squad, he'll probably assault one or both of your plasma vet squads and likely win.

Demolishers will work well against the space marine infantry, the Defilers (if you can get within range) and the Rhinos. They aren't as good vs. Monstrous Creatures since they only give one wound if they hit. A Plasma Executioner with plasma sponsons might do more damage but costs a lot more points. Your best bet is probably just to mass fires from your HWS' and use Bring it Down from the CCS. Add in meltas or plasma guns if you have any within range. You might kill him in one turn but it will probably take at least two since he likely won't expose the Demon Princes to the full fury of your entire army.

As for the Manticore, I run one in a 2000 point list and it does very well. The enemy rarely hits it and it is a fantastic vehicle killer. What is surprising is that it is less useful as an infantry killer unless the enemy has hordes in the open (and without a Kustom Force Field for Orks). I use 10 vehicles though so my Manticore is usually obscured by a Chimera. The enemy tends to choose to shoot at unobscured targets. My list is also pure gun line so the Manticore is only one of many threatening targets.

Ok, so you don't think that the short range of the Melta Gun would be a problem then? If I swap the PG's in the infantry squads and change one of the Lascannon HWS to autocannons I'd be saving 45 points, where do you suggest I find the other points that I will need to include another 2 Chimeras and a veteran squad with Plasma guns?

When your mounted in a Chimera and shooting infantry, you can move 6" and fire out to 12", giving you 18" range effectivily.

Your to the point of taking away things that you want to pay for things you want. At that point you need to ask yourself if this will make you more tactically flexible or not. Do you want to be a anti-chaos marine guy? Well, you can taylor your army more towards that, but then you might lose some effectiviness against other things...

You need to decide what your tactics will be and stay focused on those tactics. Don't react to other's armies, force them to react to you.

Ok, I fight other people as well as Lash of Submission CSM guy, so I think I'm just going to stick to the original tactics of sitting back and shooting, while the Melta-gun veterans in the Chimeras and Demolishers go out and cause carnage.

Thanks.

Rampage wrote:Ok, so you don't think that the short range of the Melta Gun would be a problem then? If I swap the PG's in the infantry squads and change one of the Lascannon HWS to autocannons I'd be saving 45 points, where do you suggest I find the other points that I will need to include another 2 Chimeras and a veteran squad with Plasma guns?

The range issue is a red herring. Plasma guns are rapid fire, so unless you are sitting still they also have a 12" range. If your blob is sitting still you're doing it wrong.

A single or a few melta guns can accomplish something; a single plasma gun is not really that useful. IG rocks because they have units that can pack three or even four plasma guns or fire three plasma blast markers.

The ability of melta guns to crack vehicles adds to the utility of the blob; blow up the transport, charge the occupants. A plasma gun or two isn't much use; use them and they actually detract from what the unit can accomplish.

Perhaps curiously, the heavy support section is not where IG gets its anti-tank capability, that falls to the troops. The heavy support is actually better at anti-infantry including MEQ and TEQ. The exception is the Medusa, which can crack transports, add the bastion brechers and they become insanely effective against armor. Bastion breechers can be said to reduce the overall utility of the Medusa, but what do you want it to do?

If you want a really effective IG army, then forget about the points-intensive HQs and get men with guns. If you want to have fun then do what you think is fun.

The hybrid army is probably the hardest to get right; play veterans in Chimeras and about the only thing that can screw it up is putting heavy weapons in the units and parking all game. The Chimeras increase the survivability of the AV-12 heavy hitters from the heavy support section which aren't really good unless they are concealed.

All blob is okay but has obvious limitations; Al Rahem helps that style tremendously. This is what I play, not necessarily because I think it's the best IG style because I would be silly if I thought that. It's what I like. If I want to play mech., I'll pull out one of the other all-mech. armies I have.

None of the units are entirely useless, but some are better than others and some work well in certain combinations but not so well in others. The trick is figuring out a combination.

Look for several units that can pop tanks. This means melta usually; the only other good candidate is the Medusa. It's not just the penetration, you need the bonus on the chart.

Look for several units that can produce a result against transports reliably. Transports that aren't moving are nearly as good as wrecked transports. This usually means units with multiple autocannons, although extra anti-tank is fine. HWS's fit this bill, but they are fragile. Hydras fit this bill. The Exterminator technically fills this bill but it is not cheap.

You need units that can kill infantry. Hull-heavy flamers are the favorite here, but the IG have loads of good troop killers, including many of the Leman Russ variants. Well, make that "reasonably" good at least.

MEQ and TEQ killing are also super to have along. IG excels at this because there are multiple units that can pack multiple plasma guns. The Executioner is also a very fine option here.

If you are after effectiveness, you need the best combination of these units. That's why people love their veterans, they usually fill at least two of these roles plus they can hold objectives. So people use melta and plasma veterans along with command squads to field ridiculous amounts of special weapons. This is the chief strength of the IG. The ability to fire all of those weapons out of a transport is a tremendous help. It's like open-topped with no penalty.

If a particular style of play appeals, then you have to pick the units with articficial constraints in mind. This is not necessarily bad. If you like Demolishers, play Demolishers, but don't be fooled into thinking they are good choices, they really aren't. There are only a few circumstances where they are better than a battle tank and the range more than cancels that benefit.

I play an Executioner, a battle tank, and a Demolisher in most games because that's what I have and they are painted. I got most of this army second hand and I just haven't got around to optimizing this area.

The Executioner has rocked, the battle tank has done okay and with very few exceptions, the Demolisher has done nothing but draw fire. That's not all bad, but players who know what they are doing will go after the Executioner first anyway, but a combination of irrational fear of S10 and close proximity usually causes players to go after the Demolisher.

Two Demolishers would give one of them the chance to get something done; it's tough to take out multiple AV-14 vehicles in a turn.

I'm sick as a dog as I type this and I'd rather be playing Star Craft anyway, so I'm going to stop soon.

There are numerous routes to good builds with IG. Some things are pretty well set though. Veterans belong in Chimeras with three special weapons and the only choices are melta or plasma. Hull-heavy flamers add a great deal to the Chimera-heavy list. AV-12 heavy support benefit from a Chimera wall to hide behind. Conversely, AV-14 is indicated when there are not many Chimeras. Grenade launchers suck. Orders are sometimes helpful, but what you want is guns, guns, guns. Blobs need power weapons and commissars to be effective at fighting. Priests can be helpful.

One last random thought just in case you are still reading this; Lash makes blob(s) cry. It's a bad match up.

Right, today I went off and bought a command squad and a squad of jungle fighters, as well as a box of knightly orders for my Empire, so I'm going to start assembling my CCS and Infantry squad 1.1 from the platoon (Commisar to be added soon). I am hoping to upload the progress that I am making to the army to the blog soon but am just re-posting another updated version of the list just to check that I am giving my men the right equipment. The general tactic is staying the same, and this list is similar to the previous one just with some minor tweaks. I think this list is at a total of 1995 points.

HQ

Company Command Squad
-Colonel Greiss (Creed)
-Regimental Standard
-Plasma Guns (3x)

Lord Commissar
-Power Weapon
-Plasma Pistol
-Carapace Armour

Troops

Platoon 1

Platoon Command Squad 1
-Power Weapon
-Flamers (4x)

(The 3 Infantry Squads below are 'blobbed')
Infantry Squad 1.1
-Commisar - Power Weapon
-Power Weapon (Sergeant)
-Melta Gun

Infantry Squad 1.2
-Power Weapon (Sergeant)
-Melta Gun

Infantry Squad 1.3
-Power Weapon (Sergeant)
-Melta Gun

Heavy Weapons Squad 1.1
-Lascannons

Heavy Weapons Squad 1.2
-Autocannons

Heavy Weapon Squad 1.3
-Lascannons


Veteran Squad 1
-Melta Guns (3x)
-Chimera -Heavy Flamer (replacing Heavy Bolter)

Veteran Squad 2
-Melta Guns (3x)
-Chimera -Heavy Flamer (replacing Heavy Bolter)

Veteran Squad 3
-Plasma Guns (3x)

Heavy Support

Leman Russ Demolisher

Leman Russ Demolisher

Manticore Rocket Launcher


Thanks for all of your help.

Rampage wrote:
Company Command Squad
-Colonel Greiss (Creed)
-Regimental Standard
-Plasma Guns (3x)

This unit would dearly love a Chimera. It's a lot of points to just eat lead.

Rampage wrote:
Lord Commissar
-Power Weapon
-Plasma Pistol
-Carapace Armour

If this guy is going to hide with the HWS's, then a cloak is very handy and the other stuff probably wasted points. If he's going with the CCS, then it really needs a Chimera.

Rampage wrote:
Platoon Command Squad 1
-Power Weapon
-Flamers (4x)

Foot units with flamers have no real chance of success, especially when they are five, Sv5+ wounds.

Rampage wrote:Veteran Squad 3
-Plasma Guns (3x)

Another unit that will be vulnerable without a Chimera.

I like the list mostly, I don't care for the Lord Commissar, I think those points could be better spent. I would absolutely rather have Chimeras for both Command squads and the third veteran squad than those HWS's. And unless you intend to advance aggressively, the Demolisher's won't fit well. Their range will prevent them from being able to screen the Manticore, and you have only one foot unit to screen them. Granted it's a pretty good sized unit, but it's still one unit and Demolishers are very vulnerable to assault.

I apologize if I've overlooked things that have been discussed before.

HQ

Company Command Squad
-Colonel Greiss (Creed)
-Regimental Standard
-Plasma Guns (3x)
-Chimera

Lord Commissar
-Power Weapon
-Plasma Pistol
-Camo Cloak
Troops

Platoon 1

Platoon Command Squad 1
-Power Weapon

(The 3 Infantry Squads below are 'blobbed')
Infantry Squad 1.1
-Commisar - Power Weapon
-Power Weapon (Sergeant)
-Melta Gun

Infantry Squad 1.2
-Power Weapon (Sergeant)
-Melta Gun

Infantry Squad 1.3
-Power Weapon (Sergeant)
-Melta Gun

Heavy Weapons Squad 1.1
-Lascannons

Heavy Weapons Squad 1.2
-Autocannons

Heavy Weapon Squad 1.3
-Autocannons

Veteran Squad 1
-Melta Guns (3x)
-Chimera -Heavy Flamer (replacing Heavy Bolter)

Veteran Squad 2
-Melta Guns (3x)
-Chimera -Heavy Flamer (replacing Heavy Bolter)

Veteran Squad 3
-Plasma Guns (3x)
-Chimera

Heavy Support

Leman Russ Demolisher

Leman Russ Demolisher

Manticore Rocket Launcher


Ok, I have given both the CCS and the Palsma vets Chimeras to keep them alive, but this brings my total up to 2070pts. Any suggestions to where I could shave the extra 70 points from? I've decided to keep the Lord Commissar. The idea being that he is going to camp amongst the HWS's and keep them from running away.

Thanks for your help.

Rampage wrote:Ok, I have given both the CCS and the Palsma vets Chimeras to keep them alive, but this brings my total up to 2070pts. Any suggestions to where I could shave the extra 70 points from? I've decided to keep the Lord Commissar. The idea being that he is going to camp amongst the HWS's and keep them from running away.

Thanks for your help.

Aside from dropping the Lord Commissar (that's a lot of points that isn't doing much), I can see two obvious, easy choices; drop one HWS, or swap the lascannons for autocannons and switch the Demolishers for Battle Tanks.

The first option is easier, but the second one probably makes the list better. Autocannons are better than Lascannons in many situations, and Battle Tanks are more versatile and fit with a gun line better than Demolishers.

Whole reason he has the Commissar is for Creed to give orders to his heavy weapon squads. This was made in favor over my suggestion of Kell, as well as to keep them from running off if people shot at them.

To be frank, your suggestions and his eariler posts is giving his list an identity crisis. Is he doing a gunline guard or is he now attacking with the blob? You seem to be suggesting to him to go on the offensive.

But this is why I told him to figure out his tactics and stick to them.

Rampage... what do /you/ want to play? Do you want to attack and be agressive or do you want to sit back and shoot? Then you need to choose /how/ you want to do this, as there are multiple ways of doing both. But Guard seem to work best doing one or the other. You can do both, but as a new player, the tactics and coordnation needed might be beyond you right now to work it effectivily.

Ok, I'm going to sit back and shoot. So I might want to re-think the Melta guns, maybe just not give them special weapons at all?

I gave the CCS a Chimera to stop them dying whilst issuing orders, and I think that this is probably also sensible for the Plasma vets, not to allow them to rush forward with the Melta gun vets and the Demolishers, but to make it harder for the opponent to get a kill point off of them. In fact, the Lord Commissar does seem like an easy kill point so I think I'll probably remove him and take Kell, as Creeds orders should be able to keep them in the fight (Up to 4x Get back in the fight).

I think I'll probably also take the power weapons off of the sergeants in the infantry squads in the platoon, as if they are going to be sitting back and shooting they seem a bit of a waste of points, as 10 points for a single power weapon seems a bit excessive, and this should save me 40 points if I take it off the commissar as well. Taking the Power weapon off the PCS seems a good idea as well, maybe giving them 4 GLs? But then again, maybe not.

Thanks again for your help.

I'm hoping that this is to be the finished version of my list, but I don't mind making changes. The general tactic is that I sit back and shoot, while the Melta wielding veterans in their Chimeras and the demolishers move forward and make scrap out of enemy vehicles and generally cause carnage.

HQ

Company Command Squad
-Colonel Greiss (Creed)
-Colour Sergeant Rock (Kell)
-Plasma Guns (3x)
-Chimera

Troops

Platoon 1

Platoon Command Squad 1

(The 3 Infantry Squads below are 'blobbed')
Infantry Squad 1.1
-Commisar - Plasma Pistol
-Grenade Launcher

Infantry Squad 1.2
-Grenade Launcher

Infantry Squad 1.3
-Grenade Launcher

Heavy Weapons Squad 1.1
-Lascannons

Heavy Weapons Squad 1.2
-Autocannons

Heavy Weapon Squad 1.3
-Autocannons

Veteran Squad 1
-Melta Guns (3x)
-Chimera -Heavy Flamer (replacing Heavy Bolter)

Veteran Squad 2
-Melta Guns (3x)
-Chimera -Heavy Flamer (replacing Heavy Bolter)

Veteran Squad 3
-Plasma Guns (3x)
-Chimera

Heavy Support

Leman Russ Demolisher

Leman Russ Demolisher

Manticore Rocket Launcher


I make this list at exactly 2000 points.

The CCS is going to camp in their Chimera and make lots of orders while the veterans shoot at things with their Plasma Guns. The Chimera is there for protection so that they won't die as easily, not so that they can speed around.
The PCS is going to sit around and make addtional orders, and the platoon itself is going to make up the bulk of the defnsive gunline, with the Lascannon HWS being used to provide additional anti-tank to take out heavier vehicles (especially any Monoliths that come my way, as the veterans in the Chimeras won't have much luck against them due to the living metal special rule), while the Autocannon HWSs take out lighter vehicles and after the demise of these, heavy infantry. I may be underwhelmed with the performance of the grenade launchers that I have given to the ISs but they are better than nothing I suppose. The Commissar now has a Plasma Pistol because I had 10 points spare, he has a BS of 4 and because I can.

So yeah, the Veterans in the Chimeras move forward and tank bust from the safety of the Chimeras while the demolishers follow them and give them support to decrease the chances of the Chimeras being busted.

The manticore makes up the rest of the sit back and shoot group but I will keep it away from the board edges to protect it from infiltrators and so forth.

Ok, so once again comments and criticism are appreciated and thanks for your help.

your using numbers for your platoon and squad yeee

When you switch from an assault based list to a gunline list, you have to alter the organization, equipment, and tactics of the infantry platoon.

In many situations, you may not want to blob the squads. Instead, you will use multiple lines of squads, one behind the other, with enough separation to make 3" blast templates nearly useless, make 5" blast templates affect 3 models at most, and prevent enemy units from assaulting multiple infantry squads at the same time. If you set it up correctly, his assaults get to eat one of your infantry squads a turn, and then you get to shoot his assaulting units during each of your shooting phases. You almost never want him to remain stuck in assault during your shooting phase.

While the commissar is a must in an assault power blob list, he may be a liability in a pure gunline as noted above when you don't want to hold the enemy up in assault during your shooting phase. In any case, don't give him a plasma pistol. Yes, he is BS4 but he only has 1 wound and carapace armor. If his plasma pistol overheats and kills him, you just lost 45 points and your blob - if you're using it - is no longer Stubborn, LD 9.

In pure gunline, you can also put the heavy weapons back into the infantry squads. The advantages are that the weapons are more survivable and cheaper. The disadvantages are that you don't get the benefit of massed heavy fire in conjunction with orders, that you waste your lasgun fire when your heavy weapons are firing at vehicles, and your infantry squads are getting destroyed in assaults each turn in order to "bubble wrap" the rest of your army. Every time one of those squads dies, you lose a heavy weapon.

So maybe you should compromise:

Drop the Commissar's plasma pistol

Drop an autocannon HWS and put the three autocannons in your PCS, and two infantry squads

Use the saved points to buy a fourth infantry squad with a grenade launcher.

When you deploy, use the two plain infantry squads that don't have autocannons as the outermost layer of your "bubble wrap". Keep the other two squads with autocannons further back so they get to shoot for more turns. You might even blob them on an objective with the commissar if you're so inclined so that you can use a "Bring it Down" or "Fire on My Target" for both autocannons. Creed would then have four units with heavy weapons to receive his orders (the two HWS, the PCS with autocannon, and a two squad blob with two autocannons).

In a pure gunline, I'm not a fan of Demolishers or Chimeras with heavy flamers. Try them if you like them, but the way I see it. A gunline relies on massed long range firepower so that you can shoot the enemy every single turn with as much firepower as possible. You are not moving a lot of models in your first three turns because you don't want to lose any shots.

You also want to shoot the enemy off of his objectives because you won't be able to assault him and you probably won't get any models to move close enough to contest. I don't think two Chimeras with melta vets and two Demolishers are enough to get to his objectives and contest them. You're much more likely to see four wrecks or smoking craters out in the battlefield between your deployment zone and his objectives. Why? Because you have no "bubble wrap" to keep his infantry from assaulting your four vehicles or to keep his melta weapons more than 6" away.

Creed allows you to scout with one unit but an empty Chimera, a lone veteran squad on foot, or a Demolisher won't do much Outflanking by themselves...unless your opponent is really careless.

Just my two cents on pure gunline. It's the way I prefer to play my IG but I like a lot of infantry, Chimeras, one Vendetta, and artillery. And my infantry (other than the two CCS) is often not riding in the Chimeras. They're just pillboxes and LOS blockers that fire multi-lasers, heavy bolters, and heavy stubbers.

Ok, thanks for the help. I have removed the Plasma pistol from the Commissar and one of the AC HWSs. I have given the PCS and 2 of the ISs Autocannons and bought another IS with a GL. I decided that I wanted to keep the Demolishers and the Chimeras however. I feel that I would enjoy games more if there was another aspect to my list other than sitting back and shooting whatever looks menacing, is sitting on an objective or isn't in combat, although I can see how the pure gunline would be effective and why people enjoy playing it. So I chose to keep them, although I am not going to use Creeds rule that allows a unit to outflank and I am either going to keep them all together or bring them on in reserve from my table edge.

HQ

Company Command Squad
-Colonel Greiss (Creed)
-Colour Sergeant Rock (Kell)
-Plasma Guns (3x)
-Chimera

Troops

Platoon 1

Platoon Command Squad 1
-Autocannon

Infantry Squad 1.1
-Commisar
-Autocannon

Infantry Squad 1.2
-Autocannon

Infantry Squad 1.3
-Grenade Launcher

Infantry Squad 1.4
-Grenade Launcher

Heavy Weapons Squad 1.1
-Lascannons

Heavy Weapons Squad 1.2
-Autocannons


Veteran Squad 1
-Melta Guns (3x)
-Chimera

Veteran Squad 2
-Melta Guns (3x)
-Chimera

Veteran Squad 3
-Plasma Guns (3x)
-Chimera

Heavy Support

Leman Russ Demolisher

Leman Russ Demolisher

Manticore Rocket Launcher

At the minute this list is 1990 points. Any suggesstions to how I could improve this list would be helpful. Thanks again for your help.

look, i've been reading most of what people have been saying on earlier posts, and i have to disagree with most, if not all they had to say.

what you need to work do is make a Mechanised Guard list. i use one and it hasnt really failed me.

roughly this is what i use

CCS
power weapon
x2 Meltagun
Carapace Armour
Vox (no matter what has been said, i take these for peace of mind. i rarely use Orders, but its a good feeling to know that when i do the Vox is there to help get that order through)
Chimera

(depending on my mood i might take a Lord Commissar)

Platoon (roughly comes out at 900pts)

PCS
Power Fist
Vox
Medi Pack (despite what some have said, the medi pack has been a life saver on many an occasion for me. so dont pay attention when they say its not worth it)
Platoon Standard (i will agree that this is useless, but i like the way i painted my banners, and who knows maybe it will come in use someday)
Flamer
Chimera (with Hunter Killer. they arent very effective, but again peace of mind in know they are there just in case i need it is always good.

x5 Infantry Squad
Power Weapon
Flamer/Grenade Launcher (i have never use Meltaguns or plasma guns in my platoons. never needed them. and i wouldnt waste my points putting HWs into the infantry squads either. the infantry would just die before i get a chance to use them anyway. so i wouldnt have them in your squads. it really isint worth having them in there)
Vox
Krak grenades (just in case i get to charge a tank)
Chimera (hunter Killer)

Veteran Squad
Power weapon
x3 Meltagun (this is the only place i find meltaguns belong. and dont put a HW into your Vet Squads. they have the same problem as with the infantry squads. with the added disadvantage, that you want to keep them moving anyway, so you cant get a shot off with the HW)
Carapace Armour

x2 Vendetta (separate squadrans. the greatest Anti-Tank the guard have. you'll want them in your army, no matter what type of army your designing you guard for)

Leman Russ Battle Tank (with a HB at the front, no sponsons. dont take Sponsons on an ordinary Russ. you'll want to keep it moving, and never put Plasma Cannon sponsons on anything other than a Executioner. it just isint worth it no matter what anyone says)

Leman Russ Demolisher (Lascannon, no Sponsons)

Leman Russ Executioner (Lascannon, Plasma Cannon Sponsons)



this comes to just roughly 2000pts (depending on what i decide to add in or take away)

on occasion i will vary my lists around this. i've even experimented with Rough Riders much to everyone elses laughter, or add a Hellhound instead of the executioner, or add Vanquisher etc.

tbh, the thing i should point out, is that playing with the guard is no easy matter. you have to find your own way of playing with them. i've been playing with them for over 3 years now, and im only starting to get good at them after a lot of trial and error. (in fact, i lost all but 2 games the year i started playing)

to sum up that last statement.....dont pay attention to anyone here (even me) because no matter what suggestions are put out here, what works for one might/will not work for you.

Well, your advice is not helping Rampage make a list /he/ wants to play, which seems to be a static gunline list. Mech Guard is a assault list, as it wants to charge forward, not sit back and shoot.

a gunline list doesnt work as well as that. and considering that i've only had objective games for the past 4 months means that i've needed to use a Mech Guard list.

plus he has the same 4 in 6 chances in getting an objective game as all of us. how well do you think a gunline list works in an objectives game?? it never has for me. all of my infantry units are destroyed before i get a chance to do anything with them. his will suffer the same fate on more than one occasion.


plus i added at the bottom of my comment that he shouldnt pay attention to anyone, even me. most of the people who have commented have given Rampage the most random, and useless advice i've ever seen.
i mean Plasma Cannons on a regular Russ??? the Russ works better without Sponsons, same with the Demolisher.

same goes for Veteran Squads in Chimeras. Vet Squads are glorified Suicide Squads. because of this, i prefer to have them mounted in the Vendettas or Valkyries, and charge across the table taking out any heavy tank in their path, then being swiftly destroyed after.
i understand that the advantage of moving 6" and then firing their Meltaguns from the safety of the tank is appealling, but that method is slow and you'd never get them in the position you want them in, in time. thats why i have a platoon Meched up, so the vets can die taking out something important.

and dont get me started on the issue with the Medi packs and Vox Casters

J. Hillen-Keene wrote:
and dont get me started on the issue with the Medi packs and Vox Casters

Heh... I hear you. I think they have their place in certain lists or certain builds. But I can't argue that Medics are to expensive and voxs for 5pts in a IG list could be a special weapon or a special weapon upgrade. I run Creed and I run foot guard, so orders are an important part of my list, including Kell and voxs. But I think it is a testiment to IG that you can win with different versions from the same book. There just is no one single golden build for IG.

I think Rampage can win with several of the lists he posted, but he needs to play with guard and get his feet wet to find his style. I understand he wants to be able to buy X things and be done with it, but spending a ton of money on a 2k list that you don't enjoy can really hurt...specially when the general rule for 40k is 2 bucks per point... and mech Guard is not cheap.

no its not cheap. which is why im telling him to ignore everyone here, and to go out and use trial and error to refine his list. asking the people here for advice is pointless. they all bark out different ideas and weapons choices, and all of it what i read was useless. but thats only my opinion on those.

what he/she should do, is buy what they want to buy, use whatever list they want to use, and then buy stuff only if he/she thinks its necessary

J. Hillen-Keene wrote:no its not cheap. which is why im telling him to ignore everyone here, and to go out and use trial and error to refine his list. asking the people here for advice is pointless. they all bark out different ideas and weapons choices, and all of it what i read was useless. but thats only my opinion on those.

what he/she should do, is buy what they want to buy, use whatever list they want to use, and then buy stuff only if he/she thinks its necessary

So you're really just saying that everyone should stop posting in the 40K Army List forum since they're just going to get conflicting advice? Or perhaps you're saying that no one should post in Dakka at all because every thread ends up with conflicting arguments?

Isn't the point of any of these threads to get a wide range of opinions? Then the onus is on the OP to sort and weigh the merits of each argument, ask for supporting information or clarification, and then come to his own conclusion.

As for everything begin useless, I'd say he got a lot of decent advice but for several different army list builds. When he settles on the tactics he wants to play, he can refine it to best match the opponents he plays regularly in his locale. Obviously, each poster in this thread is heavily influenced by his own experiences and local meta and that does lead to recommendations that may be less suitable to his own.

As for running out and buying whatever he wants and then playing it, refining, buying more, refining...ad nauseum. It's not a great idea if you want to save money but its not a terrible idea either. Just don't be surprised to end up with 4000 points of IG before you finally have a Take All Comers list that you play all the time. I did it that way and I've got about 4500 points right now. Thank goodness I never shelled out for Ogryns. Cool models but really unsuited to my style of play.

Right, so here's what I'm going to do. Hopefully I'll be playing a couple of games on Friday (with my army being mostly proxyed) with the last list that I posted. I'll then post the games to the battle reports section and post a link to it in this thread, so that it will be easier to understand exactly what I plan on doing with my list. If not Friday, the next time I play a game or 2. These tactics will then set the framework for how I can improve the list to make the tactics work more effectively, and I will change my list accordingly. After the games, I will tinker with my list as much as someone with my lack of experience with Guard can and then I'll post another updated version of the list back to this thread. Thanks everyone for all of your help.

no, im saying that dakka should stay as is, with one exception. the removal of the Army List section.

i say this because no one learns anything from this place. the only place you can learn how to effectively play any army is on the table. thats where i learned to play the guard effectively, and im sure that is where you learned to too.

in my lists i have only taken 2 suggestions from a friend, and that was the addition of Vendettas, and adding a HB to Harkers squad. and this guy is known to give really good advice to most people i know, but i rarely take on anything he suggests, mostly because i want to learn from my mistakes.
him and almost everyone else i know have told me that i need more Meltaguns in my army. hell he even laughed at me when we played each other, because i didnt take a single meltagun in my army, yet i destroyed him with Multi-Lasers and a LRBT (another of the vehicles he says to drop) i still lost the game though because it was objectives, but i stand by my decision.

im not going to stand here and say that i never made a mistake. infact i went head to head against a Marine Mech list with a mix of mech guard and foot guard, mostly foot, and got my ass handed to me. i learned from that, that if i want to play against the best players (well the best where i live) i have to Mech everything up because thats exactly what the best players do to win. and because of that, i have barely lost a game since. granted i do draw a lot of the time. but drawing is not exactly the best thing either, and i continue to try to break the stalemate im stuck in by varying my list.

point is, how can anyone learn to play an army on the table if they keep coming here for advice?? they dont.
that is why im telling Rampage to ignore what everyone here is saying. infact i would say that to everyone on Dakka, because its just pointless. first hand experience is always the best way to play, and you cannot argue that.

and besides, he/she is no stranger to 40k. why he/she is asking for advice is a puzzle in itself. he/she knows what works, has played against the guard on more than one occasion, i would suspect, and should know from experience to just work on the list himself/herself without outside interferrence.

as for buying new stuff, i cant really argue. but using magnets on the tanks works best to save money. no guard player should ever have more than 3 Russes in a list. preferably 2 Demolisher boxes (this box has the 2 tanks you really want to use) and 1 ordinary Russ box (because the tanks in this box are ok to say the least. although im a fan of the battle tank).
where infantry are concerned, he's on his own. lol

Rampage wrote:Right, so here's what I'm going to do. Hopefully I'll be playing a couple of games on Friday (with my army being mostly proxyed) with the last list that I posted. I'll then post the games to the battle reports section and post a link to it in this thread, so that it will be easier to understand exactly what I plan on doing with my list. If not Friday, the next time I play a game or 2. These tactics will then set the framework for how I can improve the list to make the tactics work more effectively, and I will change my list accordingly. After the games, I will tinker with my list as much as someone with my lack of experience with Guard can and then I'll post another updated version of the list back to this thread. Thanks everyone for all of your help.

There are options beside fully mechanized for IG. One might argue that mech. is best, but it isn't the only viable option.

A static gunline is probably not one of those sadly. Two of the the three missions are real problems and even Annihilation can be a problem as gunline lists tend to have a crap-load of units. If you don't go first, you'll be charged on turn two by too many bad guys.

I play a little mech along with my two platoons, or at least I did. These days I'm playing a little IG as allies to my With Hunters. But my IG were competitive enough, certainly enough to crush a mech IG army in their last tournament.

The last list I commented on was pretty good, I thought. Even if Creed is a points sink and Demolishers aren't the best option. The Demo's would draw fire from the veterans and it's the Veterans that your oponents really need to be worried about.

There's no reason to give it to the "all-mech, all the time" urge, unless you want to. I beat my friends all-mech IG armies with my Witch Hunters - with and without allies, with my Kan Wall, and with my mostly foot IG. Mech is not a panacea, it will not provide auto-wins.

Ok, so I have just double checked my points for the list and have discovered that I have made a complete mess of the maths, as the last list that I posted is not 1990 points, it is actually 1780 points.......... Well done me. The good news is that I now have 220 more points to spend, so I have updated my list again to use up these remaining points. This is the list that I am planning on using in the games that I have coming up.

HQ

Company Command Squad
-Colonel Greiss (Creed)
-Colour Sergeant Rock (Kell)
-Plasma Guns (3x)
-Chimera

Troops

Platoon 1

Platoon Command Squad 1

Infantry Squad 1.1
-Commisar

Infantry Squad 1.2

Infantry Squad 1.3

Infantry Squad 1.4

Heavy Weapons Squad 1.1
-Lascannons

Heavy Weapons Squad 1.2
-Lascannons

Heavy Weapons Squad 1.3
-Autocannons

Heavy Weapons Squad 1.4
-Autocannons


Veteran Squad 1
-Plasma Guns (3x)
-Chimera

Veteran Squad 2
-Plasma Guns (3x)
-Chimera

Veteran Squad 3
-Plasma Guns (3x)
-Chimera

Heavy Support

Leman Russ Executioner

Leman Russ Executioner

Manticore Rocket Launcher

Ok, so this list is now (definately) 2000 points. I have doubled my HWSs so that I am now creating a huge amount of heavy firepower. However, having 6 Lascannons and 6 Autocannons seems to make the Melta Guns in the Veterans squads that are rushing forwards in the Chimeras a bit redundant, so I have also swapped these Melta Guns over for Plasma Guns. I have also decided to swap the Demolishers for Executioners, as they have a longer range and are better suited for accompanying 2 of the Plasma Veterans, as it is not essential to get closer to the enemy to be able to hit them, although it is still more effective if I do so. To get these extra points together however I did have to remove the heavy weapons from the PCS and 2 of the ISs, although there is not as much use for them now that I have 2 AC HWSs. I also had to remove the GLs to make an extra 10 points.

Ok, so the Platoon is going to be in the middle of my force, shooting things and not moving much, and It shall be accompanied by the Manticore, the CCS in their Chimera and one of the Plasma Gun Veteran squads in their Chimera. In addition to this, on each flank I am going to have an executioner and a squad of veterans. These are going to be moving a bit but not so much that they are too far away from the main bulk of the force, unless they need to make a rush for an objective towards the end of a game.

If I have just managed to completely ruin the army list please drop a comment, and if there are ways that the extra points that I discovered could be better spent, please drop a comment as well. In fact, if you have any suggestions, please drop a comment or leave criticism.

Thanks.

I think you will find it difficult to find useful places to deploy four HWS's, I sometimes use three and it can be difficult even then. I think you will also find that the massive investment of Creed and Kell to give orders to HWS's is not worthwhile. You will also likely find out that lascannons and autocannons do not a substitute for melta make. The autocannons are cheap and HWS can be effective in some situations - they make Raiders and Venoms go away nicely - but don't pin your anti-tank hopes on them or you will be disappointed.

I don't see any equipment on the Infantry squads. If they are to stand and shoot, they need heavy weapons. This isn't a good use of Infantry squads, but they need something, a reason to be in the list. Since you have a Commissar, I'm guessing you intend to blob at least some of them. Blobs without power weapons are nothing but tar pits. Blobs with power weapons are an effective way to use Infantry, especially when melta guns are thrown into the mix.

You will probably want to use the Executioners to screen the Manticore. It will draw fire and AV-12 is not durable. The Executioners have sufficient range to do this in most cases, Battle Tanks are obviously more versatile in this regard, but the Executioner is SO much better in other ways.

If you want a more competitive list, drop Creed and Kell and get another CCS. Plasma is a great choice for this unit. Put some melta back in the Veterans. Drop the lascannon HWS's and spend those points on tooling up the blob so it can do something. That means power weapons, melta guns, possibly melta bombs, and maybe a Priest. There's a reason they call the 50-man power blob the Duke Nukem unit.

The best reason to use Creed is his unique order. You have nothing to take advantage of that order. I would want at least two CC units before I sprung the points for Creed. The only CC unit available that's worth taking is a power blob. Six power weapons, an Eviscerator or two, plus Furious Charge? You can see the whole Duke Nukem idea here can't you? Give that unit Scouts and Furious charge and you will make people cry.

If you are just enamored of orders, two CCS's make more sense. Of course they need Chimeras and guns, but Chimeras and guns are want you want, they are what makes the IG so over-the-top good.

If Creed and Kell are your idea of fun, they groovy. I would still drop the lascannons for more gear for the blob and put in some melta. The Executioners have the plasma covered, the autocannons and even the lascannons if you keep them, do not have the anti-tank covered. Anti-tank is all about AP1, well it's all about hitting the target too, which two reasons are why Veterans with melta are so beloved. Storm Tropers make reasonably good suicide melta units too.

Ok, thanks for your help. I'll play the games that I've got coming up with the last list that I posted and then I'll probably go about tweaking it.

I suppose I could drop 1 of the Lascannon HWSs, I don't want to drop them both because I know what it's like to be facing a Monolith and all of your anti-tank involves Melta Weapons/Monstrous Creatures, and it's not nice. So I'd like to include at least some S9 weaponary.

A power blob seems brutal, but a unit like that would probably involve moving my force about a bit more and that's not really what I am trying to achieve.

I might think about 2 CCS, but it might be more expensive if I am wanting to mount them both in a chimera, although I would get the same number of orders only swapping, 'for the glory of cadia' for more plasma guns. But then if i remove Kell as well I could get enough points, but I'm not sure that I want to do that, I enjoy having a wide range of stuff that I can get my minions to do.

But yeah, I'll probably put the meltas back into the 2 veteran sqquads if I'm removing one of the Lascannon HWSs. I'll also give the Infantry squads whatever I can afford. Not a big fan of giving them heavy weapons though. I gave my guardians heavy weapons when Eldar was my main force and hated it, and they were still assault after moving. So I'll probably give them whatever I can afford, but I'll make sure that they all have the same so that I can blob them and make it harder for my opponent to get kill points off of me.

Thanks again for your help.

pzbw7z wrote:I think you will find it difficult to find useful places to deploy four HWS's, I sometimes use three and it can be difficult even then. I think you will also find that the massive investment of Creed and Kell to give orders to HWS's is not worthwhile. You will also likely find out that lascannons and autocannons do not a substitute for melta make. The autocannons are cheap and HWS can be effective in some situations - they make Raiders and Venoms go away nicely - but don't pin your anti-tank hopes on them or you will be disappointed.

I don't see any equipment on the Infantry squads. If they are to stand and shoot, they need heavy weapons. This isn't a good use of Infantry squads, but they need something, a reason to be in the list. Since you have a Commissar, I'm guessing you intend to blob at least some of them. Blobs without power weapons are nothing but tar pits. Blobs with power weapons are an effective way to use Infantry, especially when melta guns are thrown into the mix.

You will probably want to use the Executioners to screen the Manticore. It will draw fire and AV-12 is not durable. The Executioners have sufficient range to do this in most cases, Battle Tanks are obviously more versatile in this regard, but the Executioner is SO much better in other ways.

If you want a more competitive list, drop Creed and Kell and get another CCS. Plasma is a great choice for this unit. Put some melta back in the Veterans. Drop the lascannon HWS's and spend those points on tooling up the blob so it can do something. That means power weapons, melta guns, possibly melta bombs, and maybe a Priest. There's a reason they call the 50-man power blob the Duke Nukem unit.

The best reason to use Creed is his unique order. You have nothing to take advantage of that order. I would want at least two CC units before I sprung the points for Creed. The only CC unit available that's worth taking is a power blob. Six power weapons, an Eviscerator or two, plus Furious Charge? You can see the whole Duke Nukem idea here can't you? Give that unit Scouts and Furious charge and you will make people cry.

If you are just enamored of orders, two CCS's make more sense. Of course they need Chimeras and guns, but Chimeras and guns are want you want, they are what makes the IG so over-the-top good.

If Creed and Kell are your idea of fun, they groovy. I would still drop the lascannons for more gear for the blob and put in some melta. The Executioners have the plasma covered, the autocannons and even the lascannons if you keep them, do not have the anti-tank covered. Anti-tank is all about AP1, well it's all about hitting the target too, which two reasons are why Veterans with melta are so beloved. Storm Tropers make reasonably good suicide melta units too.

Aparently you never used Creed, or you used him badly, along with Orders... Two CCSs with a range of 12", 2 Orders each, using the HWS's leadership with no chance of a Vox re-roll equals failure. That is just really bad advice there, period. That is why there are two ways of using Creed, with Kell or with a Lord Commissar. Either way your using Orders at Ld 10, Kell is a standard so a Moral or pinning re-roll (at 12") and the Lord has his Stubborn bubble (at 12"). They are both effectivily worth 70pts. Having the ability to give Orders 24" away means your HWSs are spread out more along a 4' area, but for BiD both units have to see the enemy. As for Creed's unique order, that is mearly a bonus and makes Creed that much more flexible of a HQ unit, along with his ability to give any Infantry or vehicle unit Scout, so you can outflank a squadren of Russes if you wanted to. If your not using Creed, your not serious about using Orders.

Plasmaguns are rapid fire weapons. I think you still want Meltaguns on those units that are moving forward to engage the enemy. I also don't like to see naked PISs or a naked PCS. I just see no good coming from them to be honest. I would advise dropping the Plasmaguns on your vets to meltas and giving the blob some power weapons or even a Auto-Cannon or two and give your PCS some weapons.... anything really. He throws a few power weapons in that blob and uses "for Cadia!" and that squad will do some damage to anyone on the charge, weather he moves forward with it or holds it back to protect against DSing units.

Good Luck Rampage... I wouldn't change the list till you get a couple of games in.

Ok, I've played my first game with this list this afternoon. I have posted a battle report of it (which can be found in this link http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/373484.page ). This particuar battle report was against Lash of Submission guy, and more battle reports will come to that thread as I play some more games over the course of this week. The next game is suppossed to be on Sunday Vs Tyranids. I think I've got some ideas on how I can improve my list from this game, but if anyone has any suggestions as to what I could have done better in this game or how else to change my list they would be very welcome.

Thank you!

After my game against lash CSM guy, I have decided to make a few changes to my list. The current list is as follows.

HQ

Company Command Squad
-Colonel Greiss (Creed)
-Colour Sergeant Rock (Kell)
-Plasma Guns (3x)
-Chimera

Troops

Platoon 1

Platoon Command Squad 1

Infantry Squad 1.1
-Commisar

Infantry Squad 1.2
-Grenade Launcher

Infantry Squad 1.3
-Grenade Launcher

Infantry Squad 1.4
-Grenade Launcher

Heavy Weapons Squad 1.1
-Lascannons

Heavy Weapons Squad 1.2
-Lascannons

Heavy Weapons Squad 1.3
-Autocannons

Heavy Weapons Squad 1.4
-Autocannons


Veteran Squad 1
-Plasma Guns (3x)
-Chimera

Veteran Squad 2
-Plasma Guns (3x)
-Chimera

Veteran Squad 3
-Melta Guns (3x)
-Chimera

Heavy Support

Leman Russ Executioner

Leman Russ Executioner

Manticore Rocket Launcher

All I have really done here is change one of the Plasma Gun veteran squads into Melta guns. I was pleased with how the Plasma guns performed in the last game but I thought that 3 squads of them was a bit excessive. I then used the extra points to give 3 of the ISs Grenade Launchers. The may be a bit underwhelming but it's better than nothing. I also want to give my PCS 4 Grenade Launchers as well as the remaining IS. I haven't done that as yet as I am unsure where I should get the points for this from. But I am sure that my next game will be even more enlightening.

To be honest, take those Grenade Launchers (20pts) and drop that 4th PIS (50pts, total 70pts). You do not need 40+ guys defending a single Manticore. Get 3 ACs for your remaining 3 PIS that are blobed up, so they now give you effectivily another HWS for 30pts that is protected by the blob. Take those GLs and either put them in the PCS (where the mass fire might actually do something) or give them flamers. This will cost you 20pts. Take those last 20pts and give your Blob at least 1 powersword (on the Commissar) and two meltabombs (on two Sergeants) or two power swords.

Ok, that does sound better actually. Thanks. I'll sort that before my next game. Speaking of which, the game that I was meant to be playing tomorrow has been pushed back a week, so the next game that I'm playing will be on Tuesday against an unknown faction.

NP, good luck!