Every codex has a unit (or more than one) that just isn't useful. Either it is terrible in it's role, the role it plays just isn't useful in the game, or sometimes it is just so much worse than the competitors for the slot that you just can't see any reason to ever choose it.

For an example I take Codex Orks: Flash Gits; While every other squad in the Ork codex seems to have a purpose and a role Flash gits just don't seem to fit anywhere. Its not that they are costly points wise, they are only slightly higher points than a nob, but there is just nothing that they do that another cheaper squad doesn't do a hundred times better. They are just too random to be marine hunters (blasta is a silly upgrade), aren't that good against tanks (lootas are much better and much cheaper), and have no cc weapon options. About the only thing they are good for is charging straight into light infantry, and lets face it, pretty much every squad in the Ork codex is good at that.

So, thats my Soapbox rant. Anyone want to refute me? Or add their own unit, from another codex?

Swooping Hawks and Shining Spears. Everything they can do something cool can do better.

Chaos Bikes.....whats the point honestly?? the only thing i can see them being any good at is as a throwaway unit of 3 with a meltagun or 2 to destroy and enemy tank or race forward and engage the enemy in close combat early, but i think Rhino mounted CSM can do either job nicely and Raptors can do the assaulting for you!

Also Chaos spawn, dont see the point at all.

Tau: Vespids and Sniper Drones.

Sniper Drones can at least be taken three teams to a slot, but they're not worth the points, and they're competing with XV88's and Hammerheads.

Vespid... what do Vespid have going for them, anyway?

The Vespid build the Tau's drone factories which build their drone army?

Surprised no-one has mentioned Ogryns yet, or Rough Riders.

n0t_u wrote:The Vespid build the Tau's drone factories which build their drone army?

So the most useless unit builds the second most useless unit?
....
Makes sense.


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Cerebrium wrote:Surprised no-one has mentioned Ogryns yet, or Rough Riders.

Ogryns are overpriced for sure, but they do serve a role, and they aren't really competing against much as the IG Elites choices are so poor (except for psyker battle squad)

RR have a role, but would you take them instead of Valks or HH? I think not

However, these are not the worst units in the guard codex, Techpriest anyone?

Whirlwinds, why take a S4 blas maker when you can take a predator?

And chaos chosen, or +3pts per martine they can iniltrate?
really, not stat increases?



Automatically Appended Next Post:
Whirlwinds, why take a S4 blas maker when you can take a predator?

And chaos chosen, or +3pts per martine they can iniltrate?
really, not stat increases?



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Rogerio134 wrote:Chaos Bikes.....whats the point honestly?? the only thing i can see them being any good at is as a throwaway unit of 3 with a meltagun or 2 to destroy and enemy tank or race forward and engage the enemy in close combat early, but i think Rhino mounted CSM can do either job nicely and Raptors can do the assaulting for you!

Also Chaos spawn, dont see the point at all.

bike should really be taken in larger squads annd with the IoN they can nasty
Spawn are there cos they're random fun for 40pts, the only other thing in this points range is a rhino

DE: Mandrakes and the Mandrake-esque SC (cant remember the name). The Mandrake models are stunning, its such a shame they are useless.

Chaos: Spawn (obviously) - 40 points for something that has no use whatsoever and gives away a kill point basically for free.

Eldar: Shining Spears - cost a load of points, designed for combat, but will die instantly when attacked back.

Psyker battle squad nuff said

GK terminators.

The fluff says that more terminators are fielded than power armor marines but when the terminators have crappy invul saves, I would rather take power armor marines because I can get more firepower out of them and they are way cheaper so they are easier to fit in my lists.

The most terminators I find I can fit in my lists are around the 20 model mark, but I usually have 30ish power armor marines so it still doesn't quite follow the book.

Not that I'm saying the terminators are bad really, I just find more use out of the power armor grey knights than the TDA ones.

Hlaine Larkin mk2 wrote:

And chaos chosen, or +3pts per martine they can iniltrate?
really, not stat increases?

They are actually a very useful unit.
You say 3 points for infiltrate. but you can also take multiple Metla guns, power weapons, power fists etc. Infiltrate with an Icon to summon daemons down. Outflank with Melta guns etc. They are very useful.



Spawn unfortunately aren't... They are cool, but they don't do anything.

Nerivant wrote:Tau: Vespids and Sniper Drones.

Sniper Drones can at least be taken three teams to a slot, but they're not worth the points, and they're competing with XV88's and Hammerheads.

Vespid... what do Vespid have going for them, anyway?

I'd say Sniper Teams are faaar better for Tau than Vespid.

One team gets you a BS4 Markerlight and 3 Rail Rifles that pin. Plus they are a stealth unit...

Vespid are fail, in every single way possible the Vespid fail at life. Which sucks because I love the concept of them. I dare say they rank top 5 as worst unit in the game. An assualt weapon unit with 12 inch range, terrible saves, horrible stock leadership, garbage statline, horrible fast attack option, can't CC for crap, god... so bad.

Repentia.

Celestians.

Dominions.

Retributors.

Penitent Engines.

Palatines.

Arco-Flagellants.

Immolators.

Basically, C:WH.

You forgot the 50 point Rhino and Orbital Strike. I'm glad they'll likely not return.

Orbital strike was a neat idea, but the problem was its limitations. 0-1, only if you have an inquisitor, the army that uses them is so short ranged that they have to get danger close to do anything other than huddle up under cover, etc.

ivangterrace wrote:GK terminators.

The fluff says that more terminators are fielded than power armor marines but when the terminators have crappy invul saves, I would rather take power armor marines because I can get more firepower out of them and they are way cheaper so they are easier to fit in my lists.

The most terminators I find I can fit in my lists are around the 20 model mark, but I usually have 30ish power armor marines so it still doesn't quite follow the book.

Not that I'm saying the terminators are bad really, I just find more use out of the power armor grey knights than the TDA ones.

lol wut

someone saying the GKTs are a poor choice.

you may not like them, but they are an efficient unit that can put out alot of firepower and still be decent in an assault(4+ invuln is really good)




for the different codices

GKs: Purgation squads. the ranges on their weapons are low enough that Astral Aim rarely comes into play as being needed. some sort of long ranged anti-tank would have been awsome.

SMs: Captains. they are a horrible choice as they don't do much for your army compared to Librarians and Chaplains. they are only good in Bike armies and only because its the only way to get a bike army, and even then, you could take Kosorro Kahn.

Tau: Drones and Vespids are bad, but Etherials are pointless. Taking a unit that does nothing for your army(ooo an overpriced upgrade for overpriced firewarriors ) and actually can hurt your army when he dies??? lets face it, Furious Charge does nothing to help Fire warriors.

Melissia wrote:Repentia.

Celestians.

Dominions.

Retributors.

Penitent Engines.

Palatines.

Arco-Flagellants.

Immolators.

Basically, C:WH.

Could say because they haven't been updated in ... forever, but even when they first came out in 3rd they kind of sucked.

Melissia wrote:Orbital strike was a neat idea, but the problem was its limitations. 0-1, only if you have an inquisitor, the army that uses them is so short ranged that they have to get danger close to do anything other than huddle up under cover, etc.

Yeah, sort of a round peg into the square whole that is the Heavy Support slot for WH. Still kind of cool that they're the cheapest (real money wise ) slot choice in all of 40k.

I agree if they didn't have the 0-1 limit, weren't keyed onto a terrain piece before the game and you were able to control when they show up I'd likely use 3 of them. Nothing like preparing to trick the enemy onto the terrain for it, then it shows up a turn early so it does nothing all game but a tiny bit of map denial.

ivangterrace wrote:GK terminators.

The fluff says that more terminators are fielded than power armor marines but when the terminators have crappy invul saves, I would rather take power armor marines because I can get more firepower out of them and they are way cheaper so they are easier to fit in my lists.

The most terminators I find I can fit in my lists are around the 20 model mark, but I usually have 30ish power armor marines so it still doesn't quite follow the book.

Not that I'm saying the terminators are bad really, I just find more use out of the power armor grey knights than the TDA ones.

I don't think you're playing GK well then. Terminators with a 4+ invul save that can be taken as troops? Yes please. More firepower? In what way? Terminators can take heavy weapons and keep their assault capability. Power Armoured ones cannot.

Unless the terrain piece is large, like a hill or mountain. In which case you can cover almost the entire map.

Mandrakes: mediocre all around, don't really do much of anything well
Shining Spears: too expensive for what is basically a single-use unit
Swooping Hawks: tank hunting only... and they do that poorly for their cost
Seraphim: incredibly expensive for... 2 bolt pistols? pity the models are so beautiful
Pyrovores: do I really have to explain this one?

Phoenix Lords - all of them
Wraithguard
Howling Banshees
Striking Scorpions
Storm Guardians
Rangers and Pathfinders
Vypers
Shining Spears
Swooping Hawks
Dark Reapers
Support Platforms
Fire Prisms
Falcons
Wave Serpents

DarknessEternal wrote:Phoenix Lords - all of them
Wraithguard
Howling Banshees
Striking Scorpions
Storm Guardians
Rangers and Pathfinders
Vypers
Shining Spears
Swooping Hawks
Dark Reapers
Support Platforms
Fire Prisms
Falcons
Wave Serpents

lolwut?
Wave Serpents and Fire Prisms? (not sure on FPs ill admit) Wave Serpents are the best transport you have and easily outclass some other transports (speed wise if nothing else)

Tyranids - dropping ymgarls, lictors, pyrovores, deathleaper, venomthrope, doom all in elites where they compete with nids only real ranged anti-tank in zoathropes and hive guard.

IG - making the enginseer worse than a techmarine. Making penal legion too random to use in a tournament. No point to conscripts - send in the next wave should never cost 75 points!

SM - no way to make scout bikes troops. Overcosted predator upgrades. Not enough weapon upgrades for assault marines to make squads worthwhile. LOTD too expensive and not enough upgrades.

Ork - why take a deff dred when you can take cheaper killa kans with BS3.

Eldar: phoenix lords need to have a point for anyone to use an HQ slot on.

The core problem is the meta that changes with each release.

Codex: Ork - 6pt orks invalidated a lot of choices eldar guardians, tau fire warriors, etc.

5th ed: The change in vehicle damage rules upped the value of rhinos and chimeras but nerfed every skimmer race.

Codex: SM, SW , BA the improvement in psykers basically nerfed every army that has no psyker defense. Also the improvement in their psychic defense made the value of psykers go down (lash, fortune, etc.)

But if I have to go with the top of the list it is the chaos spawn for cool looking but worthless. Backed up closely by guardians, firewarriors, kroot, swooping hawks, vanguard vets, sw termies, chaos dreads, wraithlords, wraithguard, all the codex/WH, all the non-DW Codex: DA.

ruminator wrote:
IG - making the enginseer worse than a techmarine. Making penal legion too random to use in a tournament. No point to conscripts - send in the next wave should never cost 75 points!

The horribleness of the Enginseer is only surpassed by the wastefulness of his retinue, 20pts+1 pf attack+bonus to repair vehicles = HB or MM, making a squad about the cost of an LRBT, I really don't see how this didn't raise some questions during playtesting.

ruminator wrote:
Ork - why take a deff dred when you can take cheaper killa kans with BS3.

Couldn't have said it better myself.

Chaos Spawn by so much it hurts
I cannot think of a single unit that is simultaenously so useless and so expensive points wise
Its designed as fodder but its not worth fielding because of the goddamn price

Stormtroopers. Not even that bad, although I disagree with AP3 hotshots. I like that they're flexible, I like that they have loads of gear, and I dig the models. But at 17pts per, they're way too spendy for suicide units, and T3 and 4+ saves do not a front line squad make.

I'd make them about 12pts a model, keep their rules, make the hotshots S4 A-, and allow four specials at 10 men.

deff Dreads can get 6A on the charge. Just saying

I also don't think that the pred upgrades are over expensive

The Deff Dread works when a big mek makes it a troop, as it's a dirt cheap combat monster.

The techpriest I'm willing to look the other way on, as it was clearly, even in 3rd edition, a chance to add a cool new model to the range, and to give IG the same thing Marines, Orks, (and previously chaos) had: a mechanic.

I still think it wouldn't be hard to make it not totally suck, but it was always a side show, and never a serious unit. (I'd go with WS4, BS4, 2W, 2A, 3+/5++, power weapon, to allow some CC punch to some units)

Revenent Reiko wrote:
Wave Serpents and Fire Prisms? (not sure on FPs ill admit) Wave Serpents are the best transport you have and easily outclass some other transports (speed wise if nothing else)

Wave Serpents - Triple the cost of a Rhino for that. One tiny door in the back. No one can shoot out. For a cost benefit analysis, it is the worst transport in the game.

Fire Prism - One gun. Most non-transports in its price range have 3 or more.

C:CSM;
Chaos Spawn - Why? Just... why?
Chaos Lords*
Chaos Sorcerers*
*Why would you want a Lord if not for DWs or over-priced TL LCs that can be killed by the nearest powerfist sergeant, and why a Sorcerer if not simply for being able to be put in a transport?)
Chaos Terminators - Power Weapons and Ld10 but no Fearless and little in the way of added protection? MoN means sod all vs the plasma you'll be getting in the face and MoT is quite expensive for an invul save that is still worse than the TH/SS loyalists.
Chaos Dreadnoughts - Crazed. That is all.
Possessed - Overpriced marines with S5 and a random special ability that it's doubtful you'll ever get to use to any great effect.
Noise Marines - 5pts more for Fearless Ld10 and +1I... amazing... give us Sonic Blasters as standard and you've got a deal.
Rubrics - Thanks for the AP3 bolters, shame about all the cover saves people will get against them.
Bikers - "We could use our toughness to-" "Got Plague Marines." "Fine, we can deliver meltagu-" "Got chosen and raptors." "We can do Close co-" "Got berzerkers." "I'll be in my room..."
Predators - "Long ranged firepow-" "Got Obliterators." "I'll be with the bikers..."
Special Characters - "It's okay, Khârn and Abaddon are here and have the situation under control; the rest of you can go home."

I'll do Tau and Eldar after i've finished raging...

DarknessEternal wrote:

Revenent Reiko wrote:
Wave Serpents and Fire Prisms? (not sure on FPs ill admit) Wave Serpents are the best transport you have and easily outclass some other transports (speed wise if nothing else)

Wave Serpents - Triple the cost of a Rhino for that. One tiny door in the back. No one can shoot out. For a cost benefit analysis, it is the worst transport in the game.

Fire Prism - One gun. Most non-transports in its price range have 3 or more.

Hmmm didnt realise they were so expensive, ive always just seen their maneuverability and said 'yes please!'
i did admit i wasnt sure on the Fire Prism, but maneuverability + 2 firing modes doesnt seem too bad.

DarknessEternal wrote:

Revenent Reiko wrote:
Wave Serpents and Fire Prisms? (not sure on FPs ill admit) Wave Serpents are the best transport you have and easily outclass some other transports (speed wise if nothing else)

Wave Serpents - Triple the cost of a Rhino for that. One tiny door in the back. No one can shoot out. For a cost benefit analysis, it is the worst transport in the game.

Fire Prism - One gun. Most non-transports in its price range have 3 or more.

WS are not THAT bad. They are on the weaker side (thx stupid skimmer rules and all Eldar pricing), but they are not the worse transport. That goes to Tau fishes I think.

FP indeed suffer from this. It can be used successfully however. And nothing can 100% overshadow it currently.
The bad thing is that so many thing in Eldar codex are crap that even the somewhat bad units are often considered good because there is nothing better available.

WS cost 100pts at the cheapest, and come with 12/12/10 as opposed to Rhino's 11/11/10, plus the WS also has the Energy Field rule, meaning that ranged weapons fired against its forward and side arcs cap at S8; ranged weapons will also only ever get one D6 for penetration, and it goes on to say that melta weapons at half range and ordanance are included in this.

The WS also has 2 more slots of transport capacity, is a fast skimmer and a tank.

The WS is so different from the Rhino that they're almost incomparable.

Lictors and Trygons. Their 'synergy with other units in reserve' ability can only be used if they themselves have arrived from reserve. That's just silly. Yeah, Trygons are powerful, but one of their big fluff things is thrown out the window by not working 3/4 of the time.

BeefCakeSoup wrote:

Nerivant wrote:Tau: Vespids and Sniper Drones.

Sniper Drones can at least be taken three teams to a slot, but they're not worth the points, and they're competing with XV88's and Hammerheads.

Vespid... what do Vespid have going for them, anyway?

I'd say Sniper Teams are faaar better for Tau than Vespid.

One team gets you a BS4 Markerlight and 3 Rail Rifles that pin. Plus they are a stealth unit...

Vespid are fail, in every single way possible the Vespid fail at life. Which sucks because I love the concept of them. I dare say they rank top 5 as worst unit in the game. An assualt weapon unit with 12 inch range, terrible saves, horrible stock leadership, garbage statline, horrible fast attack option, can't CC for crap, god... so bad.

The only things I don't like about Sniper Drones are the cost (80 pts for 3 Rail Rifles) and they're competing with Broadsides and their TL Railguns at a comparable price. They're just never worth giving up XV88s or Hammerheads.

The Waveserpent was good to great in 4th edition, when it was designed. Eldar and Tau didn't age well with the transition to 5th, so calling out things like Waveserpents as poorly designed in the current environemnt isn't really appropriate.

OTOH, things like Swooping Hawks were still bad, even in 4th.

Tyranids- Pyrovores. Sure, it gives Nid's a teplate weapon, but its really not worth taking up an elite slot for one "Flamer" that gets killed pretty qickly, ususally without doing damage at all. Overall an awful unit.

I'll write my armies, and every useless unit

CSM-
Possessed(hurr, these guys have another attack, and get a random effect)
Bikes (33 points for another toughness and 12 inches. Raptors with MON do the same job better)
spawn (obvious)
predators (No point. Too expensive. I suppose you could take one instead of obliterators though.)
Lesser daemons (no marks, otherwise would be good)
Greater Daemon (foot slogs, no mark)
Thousand Sons (65 points, with no magic? Are you kidding? Why is every marine the price of a plague marine? Certainly not because of AP3...)
Noise Marines (I5 and great guns? Make up your mind. Also, the BM is 40 points on a vastly overprices unit for what reason?)

DE-
Bloodbrides (outclassed by incubi, and FOCd by Trueborn every time)
Grotesques (Just bad, although I do see some use for them in the future. Depends on the model, really)
reavers (worthless. Nothing more than an annoyance unit. Hellions are better, especially with sathonix)
Scourges (replaced easily by Trueborn. No point in using them)
Voidraven (too expensive, doesn't come with missiles standard. Some might disagree, but I've had nothing but bad luck with them)

Snipers in General. I assume they used to be useful at some point? I haven't been playing that long so i could be way off.

Conscripts. A guardsman is 5 points. Minus a BS and WS and two LD? That's totally a one point deduction in cost. They'd be great if they were 3pts a piece. As is, they're kinda not worth it.

Punisher Gatling Cannon. THIS COULD HAVE BEEN AWESOME. How you ask? 36" range, 175 points. BAM. Freakin' sweet now.

snipers were never awsome.

they are good at popping Monsterous creatures with having rending and always wounding on a 4+


the one sniper unit that is good are Eldar Rangers(with the Pathfinder upgrade) as they have sooo many chances to be good(rend on 5+, Ap1 on a 6 to hit)

Though I love the army about half the dark eldar. Really have to choose fun or good when you pick your units/wargear.

Marneus Calgar.

you kidding?

auto-passing or failing ANY morale or pinning test? thats pretty powerful

Calgar's got some good rules and is underrated.

just like Abbaddon.


they often don't get used for psycological resons. oooo you're using papa smurf" "ooo, you're using Failbaddon"

Wave Serpent is a main battle tank, not really a transport, if you keep it moving it'll outclass the Falcon both on durability and offensive capacity.

Swooping Hawks have never been good, not even in 3rd edition where they came down on a large blast marker rather than a small one. Their models are also a pain in the rear armour to keep whole.

CSM's have a lot

Spawn, Possessed, Dreads, Predators, Noise Marines, Chaos Lords, Bikers, etc.

With IG, despite being a rather strong army, there's also a lot of putzed stuff, most obviously the horrifically overpriced and awkwardly geared Stormtroopers, Sentinels, Ogryn, Deathstrike, Bassys, Lord Commissars, Vanquishers, Eradicators, Punishers, Rough Riders, Penal Legion, Vets (aside from relatively barebones vets in either chimeras or Valks, they aren't that good, their options are hideously expensive), Hellhounds and derivatives (30-40pts too expensive), Yarrick, Harker, Bastonne, etc.

Stormtroopers are a unit that particularly irks me. GW has never gotten them really right. "Stormtroopers" in the classic sense are elite assault infantry tasked with siezing a particular objective, armed with lots of grenades, SMG's, flamethrowers and the like. They are mobile, fast, and intended for assault roles. GW's stormtroopers really have generally just been "Guardsmen +1". The current incarnation gives them AP3 guns, but this means they can trade marines blow for blow in a shooting war, and only at 18" or less, and they still suck majorly in CC. It's like they were intended to be MEQ hunters, but given too much gear and special rules and ridiculous weapon restrictions for that "all powerful" AP3 (on S3 guns...). If their guns were Assault 2, they were Ld8/9 instead of 7/8, and got WS4 and Furious Charge, and they were 70pts for 5, 130pts for 10, they'd be worth their cost and fit their role and archetype much, much better.

Flash gitz have been covered, but there are a few more units in C:O that deserve mention.

Tankbustaz - lotsa rokkitz, but woefully easy to exploit and divert from your preferred target.

Looted Wagon (non-boomgun) - An open-topped Rhino? and all I have to give up is a Heavy Support slot per vehicle? Oh boy!

Weirdboy - hilarious, but high randomness plus competing against Warbosses and Big Meks for the smallest FOC slot means these guys don't see the table too often.

Warbuggy - Not utterly horrible, but they are the same cost/role as Deffkoptaz with worse survivability and maneuverability.

Scouts in BA, Imean with assualt marines, tactical marines adn both death company options why even include them?
Sanguinary guard and C:SM Honour guard suffer from a lack of Inv saves

Ork Stormboyz, sure they have jump packs but they lose the Waagh! rule for no apparent reason.

Stormravens generally strike me as awful, if you give it Hurricane Bolters for +20pts you could just have a Land raider Crusader (Same weaponary is AV14 all round instead of 12-12-10)

Chaos Elites slot (Except possibly termies)

Necron Paraihs 36pts per model for something without WBB, no thank you

IG:
Conscripts, RR, Psyker battle squads, Ogryns, Penal Legionaires, the Leman Russ with the autocannon turret, Deathstrike, Griffons, Hellhound +friends, Engiseers, Priests

Vaktathi wrote:Sentinels, Ogryn, Bassys, Lord Commissars, Vanquishers, Vets, Hellhounds and derivatives

A quadrillion times no.

Sentinels are epic and awesome. Ogryns, while a bit clumsy to use, are still excellent assault units. Basilisks are spammable and powerful, Lord Commissars are an excellent choice for a Veterans based army, Hellhounds offer great tactical options, etc. And vets... what. No. HELL no are veterans bad.

I like Warbuggies. Cheap, fast twin-linked rockets (almost as good as actually having ballistic skill).

Weirdboy - too random. Warphead - still too random... pretty much useless (even though I do still use them) - maybe if games were 12 turns long they would eventually have an impact!!

Looted wagons are the biggest disappointment to me. I am kind of a tread-head and I think Orks should be better at looting other folk's armor - that is what they DO. The vehicles in Imperial Armor 8 are what Ork vehicles SHOULD be (look up the Big Trakk, Gun Trucks, Grot Tanks, Mekboy Junka Wagon (a souped-up tow truck) Warcoptas..) That's what we need!!

Oh yeah, Flash Gits. (Strangely enough they kind of work with a Warphead...)

For SM:
Scouts and LSS-If you could take the LSS as a dedicated transport i would be happy, as it is i'm not so happy.
Whirldwind-It's not completly useless but it could do with a little bit more of a boost...

Melissia wrote:

Vaktathi wrote:Sentinels, Ogryn, Bassys, Lord Commissars, Vanquishers, Vets, Hellhounds and derivatives

A quadrillion times no.

Sentinels are epic and awesome. Ogryns, while a bit clumsy to use, are still excellent assault units. Basilisks are spammable and powerful, Lord Commissars are an excellent choice for a Veterans based army, Hellhounds offer great tactical options, etc. And vets... what. No. HELL no are veterans bad.

Sentinels are probably one of the worst units in the game in terms of firepower per points spent and easily killed. They just don't generate sufficient firepower with a single BS3 weapon to really justify their points. Armored sentinels can serve as assault tarpits but thats about it, and are also horrifically overpriced as shooting platforms. Ogryns will generally get outfought by just about any half-CC oriented unit (read: stuff like basic barebones CSM's) on a point for point basis, and need a babysitter Commissar (who's relativley easily destroyed once they actually get stuck in) to keep from being broken and forced to fall back. Vanquishers are one of the worst tank hunters in the game for their points. Bassys suffer from a ridiculous minimum range for indirect fire that makes them largely ineffective in normal games (unless exposing themselves to direct fire...in which case, take a Medusa) and mostly pointless next to the other arty units outside of Apocalypse. What on earth do Lord Commissar's do for a Vet army? Hellhounds don't do anything that the HS options, Troops, or other FA won't do better and/or cheaper. Comapre a Hellhound to something like a Baal pred and you'll see what I'm talking about.

You'll notice very few IG lists take many, or more typically, any, of the units listed above. You may see Armored sentinels

When I mentioned vets, I did in fact providede explanation. Unless you're just taking them with 3 meltas or plasmas and little else in a chimera or valk (in which case they are great units), they aren't really very good. Footslogging? Hardly, too easy to engage outside of their threat radius and break from afar or weather their likely singular shooting phase before something closes sufficiently to wipe them out. Their doctrines? *maybe* demolitions for Valk mounted ones, aside from that horrifically overpriced. Harker? Bastonne? Both are pants. Again, there's a reason you never see Vets except in their singular "triple melta/plas chimera/valk" incarnation.

Cerebrium wrote:Surprised no-one has mentioned Ogryns yet, or Rough Riders.

ogryns are quite usefull. pair them up with yarrick and look for a fight to get into, or, get into a chimera and go look for a fight. however, you are partialy right, this guy is useless (and he is an ogryn) Nork deddog. not only a upgrade with alot of points, he is nothing more than a body guard.

for bloodangles, techmarines. no thunderfire cannanon and takes up a HQ spot, and there are so many better HQ slots.

So vets, being quite possibly the best troops choice in the game currently, are "bad" because they don't fit into footslogging lists?


Hellhounds, Basilisks and even Stormtroopers are not bad, in any meaning of the word. The Hellhound, as opposed to the Baal pred, has range on it's side, letting it be waaaay more sneaky while still doing the job it's designed for. As for Stormtroopers, I find it hilarious that they're somehow "bad" when CSM termicide, which is more expensive and doesn't get to fire melta more than once, is somehow the most amazing thing ever.

As for Basilisks, running them in pairs so they can cover each other's blind spots works decently enough IMO. Just because they don't fit into a mainstream list doesn't mean they're bad at all.

JamesMclaren123 wrote:Psyker battle squad nuff said

What drugs are you on, and where can i find some?

Really man, PBS is one of the best units in the entire codex, i never make a list without them, granted, they need the protection of a Chimera, but they can drop strength 9 large blast templates, and reduce an enemies LD to 2, throw enough cassualties/ratlings pinning in there, and boom, your running squads of terminators, fire warriors, marines, and all other terrors to your guard right off the table!

iproxtaco wrote:

ivangterrace wrote:GK terminators.

The fluff says that more terminators are fielded than power armor marines but when the terminators have crappy invul saves, I would rather take power armor marines because I can get more firepower out of them and they are way cheaper so they are easier to fit in my lists.

The most terminators I find I can fit in my lists are around the 20 model mark, but I usually have 30ish power armor marines so it still doesn't quite follow the book.

Not that I'm saying the terminators are bad really, I just find more use out of the power armor grey knights than the TDA ones.

I don't think you're playing GK well then. Terminators with a 4+ invul save that can be taken as troops? Yes please. More firepower? In what way? Terminators can take heavy weapons and keep their assault capability. Power Armoured ones cannot.

Termis only get 4+ invul in combat, otherwise they get the standard 5+.

More firepower?

230 points for a bog standard terminator squad with four stormbolters and a psycannon, which they get to fire as the heavy version so they get four shots and can move. So 8 stormbolter shots and 4 psycannon shots, okay.

For the same amount of points I can buy two 5 man strike squads and arm them with a psycannon in each but they only get the assault 2 if they want to move. 8 SB shots + 8 SB shots = 16 shots and 2 PC shots + 2 PC shots = 4 shots.

Granted, they die easier but I can have more scoring units on the board and I don't have to worry about losing a squad to a dedicated CC unit, unlike the terminators, which are a hefty investment and get punked by dedicated close combat dudes.

AlmightyWalrus wrote:So vets, being quite possibly the best troops choice in the game currently, are "bad" because they don't fit into footslogging lists?

I'm saying they are "bad" unless used one specific, if widespread, way, yes. Is that inaccurate or wrong? Most of their weapon options are pointless, their "doctrine" upgrades for the most part are awful, and they mandate a transport to work. So yes, if they're packing PG's or Meltas in a chimera or Valk, they're amazing units. Otherwise, not anywhere close.

Hellhounds, Basilisks and even Stormtroopers are not bad, in any meaning of the word. The Hellhound, as opposed to the Baal pred, has range on it's side, letting it be waaaay more sneaky while still doing the job it's designed for.

Except it can't Scout or outflank, can't take as many guns, has lower BS for its secondary weapon (and primary weapn for Devil Dog scatter), and lower frontal armor,and the hellhound is only 10pts less after kit assuming sponsons on the Baal? And doesn't come with smoke launchers. Let's not forget the Baal pred also can take an Assault cannon if it chooses.

As for Stormtroopers, I find it hilarious that they're somehow "bad" when CSM termicide, which is more expensive and doesn't get to fire melta more than once, is somehow the most amazing thing ever.

The problem is that's all they're good at. minimum sized squads with a couple meltaguns for suicide duty. If you actually want to run Stormtroopers for anything other than that, they're awful. If they get to fire their meltaguns more than once, your opponent got lazy.

As for Basilisks, running them in pairs so they can cover each other's blind spots works decently enough IMO. Just because they don't fit into a mainstream list doesn't mean they're bad at all.

At that point why not just fork over the 25pts each for LRBT's to do the same job with more durability and less fiddlyness? Or the other, more useful arty options?

DarknessEternal wrote:Phoenix Lords - all of them
Wraithguard
Howling Banshees
Striking Scorpions
Storm Guardians
Rangers and Pathfinders
Vypers
Shining Spears
Swooping Hawks
Dark Reapers
Support Platforms
Fire Prisms
Falcons
Wave Serpents

You think that guardians, guardian jetbikes and wraithlords are good? You think that fire dragons without transports are good?

Good to see the obligatory, nonsensical comparing of a Wave Serpent to a Rhino. They're so fantastically different yet there's always someone who makes a false comparison by ignoring half the characteristics a serpent has.

Re Deffdredds:



The model is so cool

Also, you can't take killakanz as troops

I feel like Sword Bretheren should be more than what they are. They're terrible as a melee squad, about 200 points for 5 to be half-assed terminators. As shooters they're actually pretty good though, 115 for a melta,multimelta and infiltrate.

Vaktathi wrote:Sentinels are probably one of the worst units in the game in terms of firepower per points spent and easily killed.

No, that's Repentia.

You aren't just paying for its firepower, but also its Scout rule or its armor. If you're unwilling to make use of Outflank rules to see the uses of Scout Sentinels, that's your problem. For Armored Sentinels, they're useful in both shooting and melee, and cheap enough that they are effective mobile fire support.

They just don't generate sufficient firepower with a single BS3 weapon to really justify their points.

Sure they do. A few multilasers or autocannons from the remarkably cheap scout sentinels on side or rear armor is plenty to do some real damage to enemy tanks, and the heavy flamers are useful against almost all infantry combined with an assault to tie them up after.

Armored sentinels can serve as assault tarpits but thats about it, and are also horrifically overpriced as shooting platforms.

Hardly, they're mobile firing platforms capable of safely firing a plasma cannon on the move, and are immune to most melee attacks (needing at least S6 to do any real damage, and even having a good chance of surviving a power fist hit which needs a roll of 5 or 6 to pen).

Ogryns will generally get outfought by just about any half-CC oriented unit

So you don't fight them point for point. That would be stupid. Like with all things IG, you whittle down the enemy in shooting before the assault, and let the 3 wound T5 ogryns assault what's left. Hell Ogryns have enough strength to destroy vehicles in melee, nevermind slaughter marines. They are a bit overpriced so most people would prefer to just get a few more cannons in instead, but they're anything but useless.

Vanquishers are one of the worst tank hunters in the game for their points.

No, that would be tankbustas. Vanquishers do excellently against hard targets.

Bassys suffer from a ridiculous minimum range for indirect fire that makes them largely ineffective in normal games

If they're too close for indirect fire, then they can almost always direct fire-- which is more accurate anyway.

and mostly pointless next to the other arty units outside of Apocalypse.

Lol, no.

What on earth do Lord Commissar's do for a Vet army?

They're relatively cheap for their WS values, they can join a vet squad in a chimera to give them an extra edge in CC, and they provide a stubborn aura which is better than fearless in an assault.

Hellhounds don't do anything that the HS options, Troops, or other FA won't do better and/or cheaper.

Except be a Fast Scout unit and having a variant able to ignore power armor and wound marines on a 2+ even after moving 12", or an S6 heavy flamer which can give instant death to all T3 armies that dare stick their heads out of their transports, or the only melta blast in the game, which provide a melta effect at 12" after having already moved 12" and after outflanking.

None of the other units in C:IG can do any of that. Hell I don't even LIKE hellhound variants, but that doesn't mean they're uncompetitive.

Comapre a Hellhound to something like a Baal pred and you'll see what I'm talking about.

Why would I want to do that? Oh wait, I wouldn't. Different army, different standards. And even then, the Baal Predator can't do what the Hellhound can.

You'll notice very few IG lists take many, or more typically, any, of the units listed above. You may see Armored sentinels

Sure I do. Or perhaps you haven't taken a gander at the IGMB? Dakka's army list, tactica, and YMDC forums are extremely skewed and I would not want advice from most of them on the specifics of the Imperial Guard's operation.

When I mentioned vets, I did in fact providede explanation.

Not a very good one. Of course they're better mechanized, all T3 armies are (it's just how it goes in 5th edition), but triple melta isn't the only viable build for them. Personally I prefer to have my vehicles be my anti-armour, so that I can have flamer/flamer/heavy flamer vets with carapace and shotguns. Joined by a lord commissar with twin pfists and carapace, there's not many units that can survive the combined shooting AND assault from this unit intact. Then of course, triple plasmas also work excellently against MEQ armies, and they can fire those quite well out of a chimera thank you very much.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

ivangterrace wrote:Termis only get 4+ invul in combat, otherwise they get the standard 5+.

Terminators with the new storm shields get a permanent 3+ save, not just in close combat.

Scott-S6 wrote:
You think that guardians, guardian jetbikes and wraithlords are good? You think that fire dragons without transports are good?

No, but they aren't completely useless. They're just below average. (average being something that the Eldar codex doesn't come within a whiff of anywhere).

In the right hands, an Eldar army is still a force to be reckoned with; people constantly say Sisters are crap, but there's a local player here who has wiped the floor with all challengers thus far.

Eldar don't have the best units which may be individually bad, but together make an army that will constantly vie for dominance in any metagame.

Right, when I said they dropped the ball I mean they really just didn't give us any true variation.

Celestians are a good example-- they could have been an excellent assault choice, but instead they have bolters. That extra attack (which always hits on a 3+ unless they can do better with their WS4) makes a huge difference, or rather, its lack does. Assault Marines would be far less if they had bolters instead of BP+CCW. A definite ball-dropping.

Dominions are another example-- an already overpriced unit has the option of taking four overpriced special weapons (Even for the time) and has to take an overpriced vehicle. If they had something like Scouts though, their price would be perfectly justified.

Retributors yet another. They only have two options, heavy bolters or multi-meltas. So outside of planetstrike (Where they can stick four relatively cheap BS4 multi-meltas in a bastion) noone really uses them-- they have to compete against Exorcists, and frankly they don't. They rather dropped the ball here too.

The fluff for Immolators says they're their own unique STC, but they failed at actually producing that in the rules. If they had AV12 front armor, they'd be worth every point, but as it is, they're just overpriced razorbacks, they were even back in the day. They rather dropped the ball there.

Palatines are just worthless, for a mere ten points you get vastly increased stats and another faith point, so nobody takes them. Another ball dropped in the Sisters' court.

Penitent Engines are an awesome idea as well, but AV11 open topped is just too much fragility for them to be used. They'd make a wonderful monstrous creature though in the same vein as the dreadknight, hell, they make far more sense as an MC than the dreadknight does. Perhaps this isn't really ball-dropping per se but the effect is the same, and hopefully a fifth edition codex will remedy this.

Melissia wrote:No, that's Repentia.

Well, them too yeah

You aren't just paying for its firepower, but also its Scout rule or its armor. If you're unwilling to make use of Outflank rules to see the uses of Scout Sentinels, that's your problem. For Armored Sentinels, they're useful in both shooting and melee, and cheap enough that they are effective mobile fire support.

Scout doesn't do a whole lot of good for them unfortunately. Outflanking can be useful, but even in that role it's not terribly threatening.. 40pts for a BS3 AV10 OT'd autocannon platform isn't generally the best use of points. Armored Sentinels are useful for tarpitting stuff as I said before (in which case they should be as cheap as possible), but for fire support? A chimera will do the same job better for anti-infantry fire, and hydras/vendettas/lrbt's/etc will do AT/blast fire far better.

Sure they do. A few multilasers or autocannons from the remarkably cheap scout sentinels on side or rear armor is plenty to do some real damage to enemy tank

Generally for the same points you can get better weapons that can provide more survivability and raw firepower for similar points. The outflanking is the only possible saving grace, but given that I can generate heavier firepower against the forward arc with the same points, it seems sort moot.

and the heavy flamers are useful against almost all infantry combined with an assault to tie them up after.

With AV10 and open topped, they are easily killed in assaults by many common infantry, glancing hits kill them on a 5+ if squadroned.

Hardly, they're mobile firing platforms capable of safely firing a plasma cannon on the move

Not something IG really need all that bad, and aren't cheap for that either, and can get on other platforms.

and are immune to most melee attacks (needing at least S6 to do any real damage, and even having a good chance of surviving a power fist hit which needs a roll of 5 or 6 to pen).

Agreed, which is why they make good tarpits.

So you don't fight them point for point. That would be stupid. Like with all things IG, you whittle down the enemy in shooting before the assault, and let the 3 wound T5 ogryns assault what's left. Hell Ogryns have enough strength to destroy vehicles in melee, nevermind slaughter marines. They are a bit overpriced so most people would prefer to just get a few more cannons in instead, but they're anything but useless.

If I'm paying a huge number of points for a heavy direct assault unit that needs to be babysat and have it's equivalently costed targets softened up before it can be assured of success, it doesn't really sound like all that great of a unit. I sure don't have to routinely do that with most other assault units.

No, that would be tankbustas. Vanquishers do excellently against hard targets.

On average, it'll take about 10-11 rounds of shooting with a Vanquisher cannon to inflict a single destroyed/explodes result on a Land Raider, or about 8 with a hull lascannon. Every other non-melta AT platform in the army that can harm AV14 will at worst match that against AV14 and be better against anything AV13 or less, or will simply do better. The much maligned Trilas predator is just as effective against AV14 and more effective against anything lighter.

If they're too close for indirect fire, then they can almost always direct fire-- which is more accurate anyway.

36" is still pretty far, you won't always be guaranteed direct fire LoS from there. And if you're using them directly, not only are you exposing it to return fire, but why bother with a Bassy at all? that's it's greatest issue, is that the minimum range blocks off so much of a normal gameboard as to make it pointless next to an LRBT or other arty. For apoc games on huge boards, they're great, but otherwise, not so much.

They're relatively cheap for their WS values

Have you seen the GK Inquistiors that are nearly 1/3rd the cost? WS5 is cool. On an S3 T3 I3 5+sv model...not terribly useful however.

they can join a vet squad in a chimera to give them an extra edge in CC,

If they're in CC, they're screwed anyway, why waste points trying to mitigate that instead of buying more guns and tanks?

and they provide a stubborn aura which is better than fearless in an assault.

Again, if they've been forced out of the tanks and into assaults, they're likely screwed either way. They certainly aren't going to turn back an assault from any but the weeniest of units.

Except be a Fast Scout unit

Hellhounds don't have Scout (unless I'm totally farking stupid). If they did, it'd be a different story. They'd be awesome.

and having a variant able to ignore power armor and wound marines on a 2+ even after moving 12"

A battlecannon can do that 72" away. A collossus can do it at a pretty hilarious distance as well while also ignoring cover and doesn't need LoS or ot be in melta/assault range.

, or an S6 heavy flamer which can give instant death to all T3 armies that dare stick their heads out of their transports

which is nice, but highly situational, especially when the majority of opponents are T4 3+ sv armies.

or the only melta blast in the game, which provide a melta effect at 12" after having already moved 12" and after outflanking.

Again, they can't outflank. As for the meltablast, it's basically a short ranged plasma cannon that gets a melta effect. Cool, but not that cool, especially as just one weapon destroyed result renders it largely fast moving terrain.

Why would I want to do that? Oh wait, I wouldn't. Different army, different standards. And even then, the Baal Predator can't do what the Hellhound can.

Scout/Outflank for one It's a BS4 banewolf with scout and the ability to take more guns.

Sure I do. Or perhaps you haven't taken a gander at the IGMB?

IGMB?

Dakka's army list, tactica, and YMDC forums are extremely skewed and I would not want advice from most of them on the specifics of the Imperial Guard's operation.

I'm not talking about dakka, I really don't go to the army list forums here. I'm speaking from personal experience at tournaments, leagues, stores and various events over the last couple years in several different metro areas. Subjective granted, but having played in about a dozen stores across Oregon, Washington, and California, there's a lot of variation there.

Not a very good one. Of course they're better mechanized, all T3 armies are (it's just how it goes in 5th edition), but triple melta isn't the only viable build for them. Personally I prefer to have my vehicles be my anti-armour, so that I can have flamer/flamer/heavy flamer vets with carapace and shotguns. Joined by a lord commissar with twin pfists and carapace, there's not many units that can survive the combined shooting AND assault from this unit intact.

That's a 235pt unit there, nearly 300pts with a Chimera. A 235pt WS3 S3 T3 I3 A1 4+sv assault unit. If it works for you, who am I to argue, but I can think of far more fearsome assault units for the same points, and a lot better use of those points in an IG army.

Then of course, triple plasmas also work excellently against MEQ armies, and they can fire those quite well out of a chimera thank you very much.

You'll notice I did mention plasma.

Samus_aran115 wrote:
DE-
Bloodbrides (outclassed by incubi, and FOCd by Trueborn every time)
Grotesques (Just bad, although I do see some use for them in the future. Depends on the model, really)
reavers (worthless. Nothing more than an annoyance unit. Hellions are better, especially with sathonix)
Scourges (replaced easily by Trueborn. No point in using them)
Voidraven (too expensive, doesn't come with missiles standard. Some might disagree, but I've had nothing but bad luck with them)

While I agree all those units are bad, I wouldnt say the dropped the ball with Reavers or Scourges, they just didnt do a particularly great job with them and they are not all that wonderful in todays meta.
Bloodbrides lose a lot from not being troops and competeing for FOC slots with great units and mandrakes. They do get 1/3 wych weapons but thats where GW dropped the ball. Wych weapons suck. For their current effectiveness they are worth 5 points, maybe. Def not 10.

Mandrakes are by far the worst thing in the book followed by the voidraven.

Im going to throw out there Kabalite warriors, they just dont have the firepower to do much of anything. other than a 5 man unit with a blaster as a venom unlock I cant see them ever being that good. sure posion is good, but everythign else in the army has better posion.

Hey look, twins!

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/369182.page

I'll repeat what I said there with the Tau units being all of the Special Characters (I'm looking at you Space Pope), Vespids, Sniper Drone Teams, Drone Fast Attack Squadron, Stealth teams in anything outside apocalpse, and the humble Skyray

*looks up* sigh...

How can anyone say chaos bikers are useless? I run a squad of 5 w. 2 meltas and a fist with IoN, won me an annihalition game today by taking out 3 ork truks and surviving!

Possesed otoh, far too erratic and costly, what a shame they are some of the nicer CSM minis. Thus go down as my "dropped the ball"

ruminator wrote:

SM - Overcosted predator upgrades.

The price of the predator upgrades balances out the initial price of the predator themselves, its just the opposite for older codices like Black Templar (more pricey base vehicle, but cheaper upgrades).

hellrai3er wrote:How can anyone say chaos bikers are useless? I run a squad of 5 w. 2 meltas and a fist with IoN, won me an annihalition game today by taking out 3 ork truks and surviving!

275pts took out ~100pts (I believe trukks are quite cheap)? A lot of things can nuke Ork trukks for far less than 275pts; one obliterator could do it and save you 200pts in the process.

Surprised the Pariah has only been mentioned once, over priced and in CC, which they're built for, odds are they'll strike after the unit they need to kill and still die first due to lack of Invul or WBB... still field them so often though @..@

I'm-a toss out the Heavy Destroyers here to, a regular one is not to bad but really, both should have just 2 wounds, they're to expensive to not have 'em. The T6 is very nice, and I can't begrudge that, but the single wound really kills the Heavy D., the smaller one can at least pump out enough shots to make it worth it's points quickly

Vaktathi: No offense, but after all that crap with im2random I'm just not bored enough to get into another quote war Not meaning to ignore you, just too much work.

IGMB = Imperial Guard Message Board. Top three links when ya google IGMB. It's focused almost entirely on the IG, and most of its posters are focused on that army, much like the The-WAAAGH forums are focused on Orks (which is why I would also go there for Ork advice), whereas Dakka appears to have a far more general audience despite its apparent Ork origins.

But suffice it to say, when I was talking about Ogryns, I'm more looking at the context of the army's own style, which is "shoot it, shoot it some more, and finish it off by shooting it again or by assaulting it after shooting it."

That's also why flamer-carapace vets work. They don't NEED to do that much damage in an assault. They just need to whittle down the assaulters' numbers so much that they can still overwhelm them anyway. I've beaten a thirty strong Ork mob-- one of the best assault units in the game point per point-- this way simply because there was so many flamer and shotgun wounds, combined with a high initiative, that the Orks simply didn't have enough bodies left to present a threat. The Chimera can add two of its own heavy flamers to the mix to boot if you play it right.

Because surprisingly no one has mentioned them.

AUN'VA AND THE REST OF THE SPACE PAPACY

Nigh survivable HQs that only make your shooting "focused" army slightly better at combat, or flee off the board, after they get killed first.

DarknessEternal wrote:

Scott-S6 wrote:
You think that guardians, guardian jetbikes and wraithlords are good? You think that fire dragons without transports are good?

No, but they aren't completely useless. They're just below average. (average being something that the Eldar codex doesn't come within a whiff of anywhere).

I would consider Guardian Jetbikes to be "good", Guardians to be "below average", and Wraithlords to be "average".

I would consider Fire Dragons without a Transport to be "an incredibly dumb way of using them". Units with short-ranged weaponry are not meant to march slowly across the battlefield; calling them mediocre because you're using them poorly is silly.

@ ChiliPowderKeg

mythological said:
Tau Special Characters (I'm looking at you Space Pope)

you sir, have been outplayed

mythological wrote:@ ChiliPowderKeg

mythological said:
Tau Special Characters (I'm looking at you Space Pope)

you sir, have been outplayed

but not outtyped

lol i think by the time this thread is over every unit will suck, I only read first page and they had deff dreads, gk terms, and wave serpants lol.

Frankly I actually prefer deff dreads over killa kans.

Pyrovores definitely deserve to be mentioned. A flamer unit with no means of reaching anything, A special rule that, if it does anything, usually hurts you instead of the enemy. Acid Maw isn't bad...except it's a single WS3 I1 attack... and to top it off competes with the Hive guard, which only costs 5 more points.

I can't believe IG vets were mentioned. Why don't we just say Paladins are garbage because if you only buy 1 and upgrade it to an apolthecary with a brotherhood banner it's overpriced.

Pathfinders, I can use battlesuit squads with marker light drones that can move and shoot their marker lights. And I can sacrifice them instead of taking a wound on my suits.

no way man, Pathfinders are the Bee's Knees.

best and cheapest way to get massed marker lights on the field onto a target.

Sanguinary Guard should be WS5, seriously, veterans of thousands of battles living legends in their own right with as much experience as a captain and they're the same as a space marine

Hmm, well, we cant mention useless units without bringing up the enginseers. 1wd models at 50 pts?. think ill take a IG
infantry squad instead, thanx.

Grey Templar wrote:you kidding?

auto-passing or failing ANY morale or pinning test? thats pretty powerful

Calgar's got some good rules and is underrated.

just like Abbaddon.


they often don't get used for psycological resons. oooo you're using papa smurf" "ooo, you're using Failbaddon"

correction, 13 time failbaddon. With a track record like that it's no wonder he doesn't get picked

but picking what has not been mentioned I would have to say Tau Stealth Suits and the kroot sharper.
Now they are not as bad as the vespid and snipers, but here me out a second

Stealth suit-takes up and elite slot, expensive and not as effective as a crisis suit. I have yet to see any competitive list field them, or to see them offer any long term game benefit. Sure they may pop a transport or two, but MP or Fusion Blasters on a crisis suit can do that. If they were in a different category than elite I would say that they are better

Shaprer- He only gives a 6+ save on the kroot, something that will almost never come i handy or pay off. Plus there is the price, if he were cheaper than I would say he's worth it. The 3 wounds do not really matter at all, and he does not have a power weapon or poison weapon for close combat. I'd say if he were given something for close combat benefit and a little cheaper than he would be worth it

Heavy Destroyers , Flayed ones and Pariahs-nice ideas, but hard to make work atm.

Furies...make them cheap and troops. Beasts of Nurgle...just no...and if only Bloodletters could be given Iron Hide..

Here is an epic face-palm: Dark Angel Tactical Marines. Even though it is the only troop choice (without a special character) in the book they are still outclassed by every other DA scoring option and every other color of Space Marine. With just the addition of something like Stubborn in the latest FAQ, GW could have made them at least a little appealing, but no, they are just an under-performing, boring unit.

I'd have to say Deathwing. The elite of the elite terminators, and they are castrated at 5 per squad? Everyone else get a lot more per squad, and they are hard to wipe out. Geanted, they are the only really Fearless terminators out there, but 5??? And the Deathwing Assault is a rather misnamed ability, as they only get to Deep Strike first turn. Maybe update to a Heroic Intervention-style kind of thing? But the assault just drops terminators to get shot up. And don't even get me started that they are the only terminators without dedicated transport options...

SoloFalcon1138 wrote:And don't even get me started that they are the only terminators without dedicated transport options...

I won't, because Grey Knight Terminators don't get Dedicated Transports either.

Avatar 720 wrote:WS cost 100pts at the cheapest, and come with 12/12/10 as opposed to Rhino's 11/11/10, plus the WS also has the Energy Field rule, meaning that ranged weapons fired against its forward and side arcs cap at S8; ranged weapons will also only ever get one D6 for penetration, and it goes on to say that melta weapons at half range and ordanance are included in this.

The WS also has 2 more slots of transport capacity, is a fast skimmer and a tank.

The WS is so different from the Rhino that they're almost incomparable.

My WS never seem to last past turn 2. They either get slagged by multiple long range shots or get deepstriked by units with a melta. The last one got hit with a melta 4" away, guy hits then rolls a 4 for a pen. Then rolls a 6 on the dmg chart.

Hlaine Larkin mk2 wrote:
Ork Stormboyz, sure they have jump packs but they lose the Waagh! rule for no apparent reason.

You do realize that they do not need the Waaagh! rule, it's just that GW's poor wording makes it seem worse

Read the rules:
every time a stormboyz mob uses its rokkit packs, roll a D6, if it's a 1, lose a model, REGARDLESS of the result you may add the dice roll to your move.

What we have here is basically a 12+D6" if they move using rokkit packs. This means there is no need for the Waaagh! rule as there is no need to run in the shooting phase (as the +D6" has given us our run move) and we can still assault (because we didn't run in the shooting phase).

I made the same mistake you did to begin with, but read the rules carefully and repeatedly, soon it will dawn on you that stormboyz are actually awesome-sauce!

As for ball-dropped units, Zzap guns, So I'm not guaranteed a decent S value, nor am I guaranteed to hit?
Well I'll just take a kannon that can multi-purpose it's shooting instead then...

Netglen wrote:

My WS never seem to last past turn 2. They either get slagged by multiple long range shots or get deepstriked by units with a melta. The last one got hit with a melta 4" away, guy hits then rolls a 4 for a pen. Then rolls a 6 on the dmg chart.

A 4 is a glance dude. 8 + 4 = 12 vs AV 12. And please don't tell me you aren't able to protect your WS's back armor when you see deep-striking melta guys coming a mile away

For a S8 shot to pop a Wave Serpent, the pen and damage dice have to be 5/5, 5/6, or 6/6. There's a 16.7% chance of that happening (it's a bit better if it's AP1 of course). And that's if they hit you.

Mandrakes and the decapitator

S3 infiltrators with no special weapons and they have to kill something before they can shoot

And the decapitator, the Dark Eldar Lictor.
Wow it can deep strike into any terrain it wants ?! awesome!
Oh no wait, it cant assault the turn it deep strikes? and its T3 and doesn't have eternal warrior? lame

I can really only complain about units in armies i have faced so apologies if i miss anything. there aren't many but every now and then a unit stands out and just shouts "I'm ". anyway, here goes....

The Tau Piranha: a nice kit sure but its not really that special in any sense and any Tau unit that isn't in some kind of suit should never have short ranged weaponry. which leads me
onto......

Commander Shadowsun: although having a suit, she isn't really good at much. she only ever gets one shot off against me before being swamped by the nine other guys left standing.

Bikers (sm & csm): i got these bought for me when i first started playing the game and i have hardly ever, in 11 years of playing 40k, come up against another player who uses these.
They look cool but for the cost to buy and for their use in the game they are just wasted money and points IMHO

mercury14 wrote:

Netglen wrote:

My WS never seem to last past turn 2. They either get slagged by multiple long range shots or get deepstriked by units with a melta. The last one got hit with a melta 4" away, guy hits then rolls a 4 for a pen. Then rolls a 6 on the dmg chart.

A 4 is a glance dude. 8 + 4 = 12 vs AV 12. And please don't tell me you aren't able to protect your WS's back armor when you see deep-striking melta guys coming a mile away

For a S8 shot to pop a Wave Serpent, the pen and damage dice have to be 5/5, 5/6, or 6/6. There's a 16.7% chance of that happening (it's a bit better if it's AP1 of course). And that's if they hit you.

even if that 4 was a glance the roll of a 6 on the damage chart would have wrecked the WS. Meltaguns are Ap1.

Exergy wrote:

Samus_aran115 wrote:
DE-
Bloodbrides (outclassed by incubi, and FOCd by Trueborn every time)

Bloodbrides lose a lot from not being troops and competeing for FOC slots with great units and mandrakes. They do get 1/3 wych weapons but thats where GW dropped the ball. Wych weapons suck. For their current effectiveness they are worth 5 points, maybe. Def not 10.

With equal points of bloodbrides and incubi (ten and six, respectively), the incubi do a single more wound against MEQ (4, as opposed to three) correction, about double, I didn't plug the right strength into the simulator, at six to three, and against GEQ the bloodbrides comes out ahead by about 50% (11 versus seven eight). They're neither bad, nor even necessarily suboptimal, they're just less popular than trueborn with blasters, which are really pretty terrible antitank (having half the threat radius of a ravager, a single shot more, and costing three points more base, not counting the cost of a transport to protect them (which doesn't extend their threat radius unless you're willing to disembark them)) but are frequently needed due to a general lack of ranged antitank.

Voidraven (too expensive, doesn't come with missiles standard. Some might disagree, but I've had nothing but bad luck with them)

Mandrakes are by far the worst thing in the book followed by the voidraven.

The voidraven isn't terrible, it's just overcosted (or rather, its missiles are). If the missiles only cost five points a piece, it would still be a viable upgrade over a razorwing, which provides the best ranged anti-infantry in the codex, and after wiping out a good chunk of the opposing infantry can switch over to killing tanks almost as well as a ravager could. Ravagers are still preferred over razorwings because of the general lack of ranged anti-tank, though.

Mandrakes are utterly useless though.

Im going to throw out there Kabalite warriors, they just dont have the firepower to do much of anything. other than a 5 man unit with a blaster as a venom unlock I cant see them ever being that good. sure posion is good, but everythign else in the army has better posion.

The five in a venom with a blaster is even worse than trueblasters for the cost. You're paying 60 points for a single 18" darklight shot. The only thing worse are blast pistols, where you're paying a total of 25 points (counting the upgrade character) for a single 6" darklight shot.


The responses in this thread seem to be focusing on several separate questions. One side seems to be running with "units that were almost good, but have either some flaw of their own, or compete against something great/mediocre but obligatory", another with "units that are completely and utterly pointless, because they do exactly nothing even mediocrely, and are expensive to boot", and then just a generic "units that are slightly suboptimal".

mercury14 wrote:

Netglen wrote:

My WS never seem to last past turn 2. They either get slagged by multiple long range shots or get deepstriked by units with a melta. The last one got hit with a melta 4" away, guy hits then rolls a 4 for a pen. Then rolls a 6 on the dmg chart.

A 4 is a glance dude. 8 + 4 = 12 vs AV 12. And please don't tell me you aren't able to protect your WS's back armor when you see deep-striking melta guys coming a mile away

For a S8 shot to pop a Wave Serpent, the pen and damage dice have to be 5/5, 5/6, or 6/6. There's a 16.7% chance of that happening (it's a bit better if it's AP1 of course). And that's if they hit you.

Like what someone already stated, AP1 weapon hitting my side armor on a 6 wrecks. So kindly explain how I should avoid a melta attack from a BA deep striking tac marines when they magicallly appear next to my WS? Just a side note, I had my rear positioned where nothing can attack it even from a DS.

The Tau Piranha: a nice kit sure but its not really that special in any sense and any Tau unit that isn't in some kind of suit should never have short ranged weaponry. which leads me
onto......

wait, wha.... oh, you think that piranhas supposed to be used primarily for anti tank, HA!

Piranhas are execellent at what they do, blocking and harassing: drop your drones, flat out to a vehicle/ footslogging unit, and dare them to ram/ attack you, then laugh as you make your 3+ dodge or when that ork horde has to take wounds from flechette discharges

the fusion blaster is just a bonus

Netglen wrote:

mercury14 wrote:

Netglen wrote:

My WS never seem to last past turn 2. They either get slagged by multiple long range shots or get deepstriked by units with a melta. The last one got hit with a melta 4" away, guy hits then rolls a 4 for a pen. Then rolls a 6 on the dmg chart.

A 4 is a glance dude. 8 + 4 = 12 vs AV 12. And please don't tell me you aren't able to protect your WS's back armor when you see deep-striking melta guys coming a mile away

For a S8 shot to pop a Wave Serpent, the pen and damage dice have to be 5/5, 5/6, or 6/6. There's a 16.7% chance of that happening (it's a bit better if it's AP1 of course). And that's if they hit you.

Like what someone already stated, AP1 weapon hitting my side armor on a 6 wrecks. So kindly explain how I should avoid a melta attack from a BA deep striking tac marines when they magicallly appear next to my WS? Just a side note, I had my rear positioned where nothing can attack it even from a DS.

Explain how anyone can avoid this? BA deep-striking meltas will take down any vehicle, kindly explain how it's only a weakness of the WS?

Toastedandy wrote:Mandrakes and the decapitator

S3 infiltrators with no special weapons and they have to kill something before they can shoot

This. Especialy the Decapitator. I love how they actually seem to think he is lethal with his special rule of appearing 1 inch away from an enemy unit (despite being unable to assault), setting himself up to be shot to pieces, insta-killed with a meltagun, or assaulted and wasted (with a dreadnaught if you're feeling particularly nasty).

I think Huron is also a very fail unit: little more than a Chaos Lord with Warptime and a slightly better flamer, lacking any fun rules or durability.

Chaos Dreads, as has been richly expounded on a thousand threads.

Comissar Warrick. He's a curious, mixed beast that tries to be a combat monster (despite losing to almost any combat specialist from other armies) and loses Orders, one of the main things that make IG special and functional.

C: Tyranids... just saying.

Grey Templar wrote:

mythological wrote:@ ChiliPowderKeg

mythological said:
Tau Special Characters (I'm looking at you Space Pope)

you sir, have been outplayed

but not outtyped

Raglrblargbllpblt!
Ctrl-F has failed me again

Netglen wrote:

mercury14 wrote:

Netglen wrote:

My WS never seem to last past turn 2. They either get slagged by multiple long range shots or get deepstriked by units with a melta. The last one got hit with a melta 4" away, guy hits then rolls a 4 for a pen. Then rolls a 6 on the dmg chart.

A 4 is a glance dude. 8 + 4 = 12 vs AV 12. And please don't tell me you aren't able to protect your WS's back armor when you see deep-striking melta guys coming a mile away

For a S8 shot to pop a Wave Serpent, the pen and damage dice have to be 5/5, 5/6, or 6/6. There's a 16.7% chance of that happening (it's a bit better if it's AP1 of course). And that's if they hit you.

Like what someone already stated, AP1 weapon hitting my side armor on a 6 wrecks. So kindly explain how I should avoid a melta attack from a BA deep striking tac marines when they magicallly appear next to my WS? Just a side note, I had my rear positioned where nothing can attack it even from a DS.

So you're saying someone got a lucky shot on you and because of that Wave Serpents aren't survivable? Really?

Let's compare that deep-striking melta hit on your WS to the same hit versus a Land Raider. Assuming the shot hits, your WS is glanced on a 4, a 50% chance for some type of damage and only a 33% chance for a pen. On the other hand, the Land Raider is going to eat the full melta hit which is an average pen roll of 15. That's a 72% chance for some type of damage and a 58.3% chance of a penetrating hit.

So there, I just proved that your Wave Serpents are far more survivable than Land Raiders in your scenario. Not sure why you're complaining.

ivangterrace wrote:GK terminators.

The fluff says that more terminators are fielded than power armor marines but when the terminators have crappy invul saves, I would rather take power armor marines because I can get more firepower out of them and they are way cheaper so they are easier to fit in my lists.

The most terminators I find I can fit in my lists are around the 20 model mark, but I usually have 30ish power armor marines so it still doesn't quite follow the book.

Not that I'm saying the terminators are bad really, I just find more use out of the power armor grey knights than the TDA ones.

I find strike squads only useful for warp quake ......
Terminators? Nothing really

Purifiers? Cleansing flame 4 psy cannons being awesome and being the most spammed unit now

Khorne Flakes wrote:
I find strike squads only useful for warp quake ......
Terminators? Nothing really

Purifiers? Cleansing flame 4 psy cannons being awesome and being the most spammed unit now

I have to be one of the only people not using Purifiers I use regular strike squads/interceptors.

My vote for the worst unit out there: Pyrovore.... /thread

Pyrovore takes the cake for me on the 'awesome model with crappy rules' stakes.

Rippers too. Pity, really. I really love the little anklebiters, but they never seem to catch a break

Heavy Destroyers... 65 pts for one shot a piece. Who cares if they move around a lot. They always miss, or roll 1s to wound.

Tomb Spiders... 55 pts for something that usually kills itself if it uses its special rulle too much and cant use its special rule if goes into combat with a whopping WS2, I2.

CSM bikers, Furies OH GOD FURIES >.<


And it went the black and white space marine...

lowmanjason wrote:Heavy Destroyers... 65 pts for one shot a piece. Who cares if they move around a lot. They always miss, or roll 1s to wound.

BS4 and wounding on 2's shouldn't be that bad, the bigger problem is that they are old. Back in 3E and 4E they were stellar units, as was most of the Necron codex. The codex bloat and core rules changes since then have changed that.

Tomb Spiders... 55 pts for something that usually kills itself if it uses its special rulle too much and cant use its special rule if goes into combat with a whopping WS2, I2.

It's still probably the cheapest MC in the game. Not amazing, but not awful either. It's slow speed hurts it more than anything else.

Compare these units to other 3E books and you'll see what I'm talking about, they weren't bad for when they were designed at all.

Hlaine Larkin mk2 wrote:Scouts in BA, Imean with assualt marines, tactical marines adn both death company options why even include them?
Sanguinary guard suffer from a lack of Inv saves

Ork Stormboyz, sure they have jump packs but they lose the Waagh! rule for no apparent reason.

Stormravens generally strike me as awful, if you give it Hurricane Bolters for +20pts you could just have a Land raider Crusader (Same weaponary is AV14 all round instead of 12-12-10)

I agree with the scouts

Not having an Inv Save does not make them a bad choice. If you take Dante (ie you only take them with Dante) They are a hard hitting Troop Choice.

Not unlike most of the Nerd Rage on the forums, I like the Storm Raven. It's hard to compare it to a Landraider. It can out move the landraider, Can get a +4 save, and the one thing it is prized for is delivering a Dread to the front line, and not having the Dread stand there and get shot up for a turn. Something a Landraider can not do, nor can a Drop Pod.

Byte wrote:C: Tyranids... just saying.

I'm surprised it took to page four for this.

You are all wrong.

It doesn't matter what army we're talking.

It doesn't matter what unit we're discussing.

Nothing can match the epic fail that is Castellan Crowe.

That said, I just bought the model... it is a great model.

Freman Bloodglaive wrote:You are all wrong.

It doesn't matter what army we're talking.

It doesn't matter what unit we're discussing.

Nothing can match the epic fail that is Castellan Crowe.

That said, I just bought the model... it is a great model.

My Mandrakes would like to have a word with you. Just saying

Leigen_Zero wrote:

Hlaine Larkin mk2 wrote:
Ork Stormboyz, sure they have jump packs but they lose the Waagh! rule for no apparent reason.

You do realize that they do not need the Waaagh! rule, it's just that GW's poor wording makes it seem worse

Read the rules:
every time a stormboyz mob uses its rokkit packs, roll a D6, if it's a 1, lose a model, REGARDLESS of the result you may add the dice roll to your move.

What we have here is basically a 12+D6" if they move using rokkit packs. This means there is no need for the Waaagh! rule as there is no need to run in the shooting phase (as the +D6" has given us our run move) and we can still assault (because we didn't run in the shooting phase).

I made the same mistake you did to begin with, but read the rules carefully and repeatedly, soon it will dawn on you that stormboyz are actually awesome-sauce!

As for ball-dropped units, Zzap guns, So I'm not guaranteed a decent S value, nor am I guaranteed to hit?
Well I'll just take a kannon that can multi-purpose it's shooting instead then...

i didn't notice that thanks,

I do feel that Killa-Kans and deff dreads are just as good,
Deff Dreads can be troops and are absolute monsters in combat (6 S10 on the charge) but Klla kans can be taken in groups of 3 and @35pts basic with weapons they are useful moving fire platforms

Freman Bloodglaive wrote:You are all wrong.

It doesn't matter what army we're talking.

It doesn't matter what unit we're discussing.

Nothing can match the epic fail that is Castellan Crowe.

That said, I just bought the model... it is a great model.

YES!

He is the only GK not to use a force or power weapon and he has a totaly awsome socks sword at that

JamesMclaren123 wrote:

Freman Bloodglaive wrote:You are all wrong.

It doesn't matter what army we're talking.

It doesn't matter what unit we're discussing.

Nothing can match the epic fail that is Castellan Crowe.

That said, I just bought the model... it is a great model.

YES!

He is the only GK not to use a force or power weapon and he has a totaly awsome socks sword at that

he rends on a 4+, he's the only GK that doesn't need Hammerhand to wound T8+ things and he can crack tanks.

rending on a 4+ is practically a Power Weapon and better in some cases. against T4, its a power weapon. against T3 and less, well, then it starts to lose effectivness. against T5+, its alot better.


He also makes Purifiers troops. they are probably one of the best troop choices in the game at the moment.

and he is dirt cheap for what you get.