It's the GK codex. Here's what really trips people up
-Draigo single-handedly going onto the Plague Planet and carving his master's name onto Mortarion's heart (It does say single-handedly to)
-Killing a bunch of 'innocent sisters of battle' ( don't know the standing of their innocents, haven't read it myself)
-Some other wacky junk there, as a Necron player the squad or so of GK's going onto a Time Traveling Tombworld (Appalling Amount of Alliteration Aquí) seemed abit weird but hey, it's the best of the SM so I personally can accept it
-Blood Angel thing as you had mentioned, but again, while odd as the devil is evil, something I think has been blown out of proportion
Bad fluff (As already mentioned) and has a horrible habit of making a mockery of the codex he is writing (By doing things such as the blood angels "blood" theme and GK "nemesis" theme). Lets not forget his awesome ability to write rules that will have most people standing for hours debating over something as stupid as hammerhand stacking, or vindicare assassins 4d6 vs 4d6 + 3s for armor penetration... or how about the LoS when models go to ground (seriously, they're all threads in You make da call right now). It all adds up.
Azure wrote:Draigo single-handedly going onto the Plague Planet and carving his master's name onto Mortarion's heart (It does say single-handedly to)
Whhhhhaaaaaaaaattttttt????
Whhhhhaaaaaaaaattttttt indeed. Draigo banished Mortarion on a planet called Kornovin. The paragraph is written in a way that suggests that Kornovin is a planet in the materium. Yet another example of angry nerds jumping on hearsay.
1: The monotonous layouts of each Codex. Seriously all they have are timelines of famous battles, I would prefer something like the older Necron Codex, where there are a variety of fluff pieces from different sources, such as an Explorator's report or the story of Jaramshela the assassin. Read through the Necron Codex and you'll see what I mean.
2: How every Codex is only focussed on a few things. I can probably guarantee that the next Codex, whatever the race, will involve crap about Malan'tai, Ka'Bhanda and another Necron planet-size ship.
I'd love to know what else he's written about the Necrons in the past few years just so I can read it and be prepared for the new Necron dex.
Having not (knowingly) read any of his work yet, I can't pass judgement on him.
It seems that he has shaken things up for the fluff fans and made some not un-substantial changes to codices - Again, this is just going from what I've read around here and a few other places on the net.
@Valkyrie: The layout of the Necron codex was what finally convinced me to play Necrons. I love it. It's like having access to classified intelligence on then Necrons. It just makes it more fun, especially for a fluff lover like me.
He singlehandedly broke Fantasy 7th edition with his Daemon army book. After that competitive play was only possible by adding house rules or not allowing Daemons.
He broke GK fluff by making them almost Khorne worshippers by bathing in the blood of Sororitas to resist the temptation of the Blood God.
He broke Inquisition fluff by allowing notoriously incooperative Xenos to make up 90% of an Ordo Xenos army.
Brother Coa wrote:Surely they listen what goes around...
There's also probably that interview where he said everyone wants to be like Ultramarines cause they're so cool. Which pretty much sparked a majority of the Ultramarine hate.
5.Purifiers being more pure than the already already pure Grey Knights, with Castellan crowe being even more pure than them, so hes like 200% pure now!
6.Castellan Crowe
7. BA teamup with Necrons
8. Calgars Falcon Punch
9. Breaking 7th edition of Fantasy
I'll stop there
As for whether they know or not? They probably do
But see the thing is his books have powerful stuff in them and so therefore competitive players buy lots of them, meaning that hes causing sales so they think hes doing stuff right because of it
Thats only my theory though, i don't know why they keep him on honestly
Codices should really be used to balance out the game and add something interesting and new that adds to the game and facilitates everyone's enjoyment of the hobby, particularly those who play that army.
It's not constant escalation of rules to make every Codex bigger and better and more stupidly over powered than the other ones. If it keeps going down that road, the rules and the game will become ridiculous, and they'll need to reset the lot just to save it from collapsing under itself. Seen it before in other internationally played and popular games.
Food for thought though - GW aren't blind. They're approving everything Ward writes and produces. They're still paying him to write more.
I'm fond of GW cos I love 40k, don't get me wrong. I'm not one to sit there and bite the hand that feeds me minis.
But who's really to blame? Does Ward actually deserve all this flak when he's doing what GW are paying him to do and then they're approving and publishing it?
Honestly, he writes some bad fluff, but there are a few things blown out of proportion here.
1) Nemesis weapons
They share a name because they all share the same set of rules. Saying this is bad is like saying that Plasma Weapons are lame because they all start with the word plasma. The blood angels did go a little overboard with the blood thing (why a blood fist instead of a DCCW?)
2) Bloodtide
There is a lot of stuff going around about this one. The end result is that this story is trying to show that the GK are not really the good guys. It shows that they are ruthless and merciless in their pursuit of their goals. Maybe the GK could have won without killing the sisters, but they decided to take the easy route instead.
Also, there is almost no detail on what the "bloodtide" is or what it does.
Stern Kills "hundreds of thousands" of imperial refugees just to kill the changeling, yet no one complains about this? (Raxos Civil War)
Brother Coa wrote:1'st note: WTF? Xenos making 90% of Ordo Xenos army You are got to be kidding with me... 2'nd note: You are telling me that no one at GW didn't hear any complain to this guy?
1.) You can make a Jokaero list (those orang utans with guns) consisting of a few inquisitors and only Xenos. Original fluff characterizes Jokaeros as being technical geniusses, but noone can communicate with them or control them.
2.) Just read the current news&rumour threads to understand how GW reacts to complains.
Not everyone is genuinely annoyed by Mat Ward. The total MINORITY consists of 80% bandwagoners who have never even seen a Ward codex and are influenced by the interesting metaphors used by the other 20%, who are mostly those who have actually read his work BEFORE forming an opinion or are completely irrational and are complaining for the sake of it. I have no problem with people who are rational about the fluff he's written, but I refuse to believe that the majority have formed their own opinion, separate from the opinions of others. The main issues, being Draigo and more importantly The Bloodtide have been subjected to the usual Internet inflation and hysteria. When say, the last few people learn about it, what is described to them is nothing like what's in the book. For example, a lot of people THINK the Grey Knights 'slaughtered' the SoB and 'bathed' in their blood. 'Bathed' is never used in the passage, nor is 'slaughtered'.
iproxtaco wrote:For example, a lot of people THINK the Grey Knights 'slaughtered' the SoB and 'bathed' in their blood. 'Bathed' is never used in the passage, nor is 'slaughtered'.
I think that SoB knew what must be done and willingly gave their lives. That must be the only logical explanation...
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CadianCommander wrote:Codices should really be used to balance out the game and add something interesting and new that adds to the game and facilitates everyone's enjoyment of the hobby, particularly those who play that army.
It's not constant escalation of rules to make every Codex bigger and better and more stupidly over powered than the other ones. If it keeps going down that road, the rules and the game will become ridiculous, and they'll need to reset the lot just to save it from collapsing under itself. Seen it before in other internationally played and popular games.
Food for thought though - GW aren't blind. They're approving everything Ward writes and produces. They're still paying him to write more.
I'm fond of GW cos I love 40k, don't get me wrong. I'm not one to sit there and bite the hand that feeds me minis.
But who's really to blame? Does Ward actually deserve all this flak when he's doing what GW are paying him to do and then they're approving and publishing it?
I like what he has done to the rules in 5'th edition, it's not bad at all. But Draigo wrighting on traitor Primarch heart on Plague Planet in warp and Ba teaming up with Necrons to stop Tyranids is a little to much...
iproxtaco wrote: For example, a lot of people THINK the Grey Knights 'slaughtered' the SoB and 'bathed' in their blood. 'Bathed' is never used in the passage, nor is 'slaughtered'.
Codex Grey Knights wrote:Needing a talisman of purity to protect against the Bloodtide's taint, the Grey Knight's first act is to turn their blades upon the surviving Sisters of Battle. The innocent blood thus spilled is then mixed with blessed oil and used to anoint the Grey Knight's armour and weapons.
So to overcome the lure of the Blood God, they kill innocent comrades and cover their armour and weapons with their blood.
You completely missed my point though. Neither 'slaughtered' or 'bathed' are used in the passage. Both have more extreme connotations than what the passage actually implies, both are words I have regularly seen quoted from the story. Slaughtered implies that the SoB were helpless and tried to defend themselves, bathed implies they literally washed their entire bodies by submerging themselves in the SoB blood. Neither of these words are used, which is why I made the point that people use second, third, fourth hand information like they actually know everything about the codex. The entire story is in-keeping with the image the development team wanted for the Grey Knights book. The entire image is just the old image with more details and certain parts explained with more depth. It's VERY 40k, and VERY Grey Knights. There are numerous events like The Bloodtide that have happened before, involving other Imperial Armies, never seen them really complained about before.
iproxtaco wrote: For example, a lot of people THINK the Grey Knights 'slaughtered' the SoB and 'bathed' in their blood. 'Bathed' is never used in the passage, nor is 'slaughtered'.
Codex Grey Knights wrote:Needing a talisman of purity to protect against the Bloodtide's taint, the Grey Knight's first act is to turn their blades upon the surviving Sisters of Battle. The innocent blood thus spilled is then mixed with blessed oil and used to anoint the Grey Knight's armour and weapons.
So to overcome the lure of the Blood God, they kill innocent comrades and cover their armour and weapons with their blood.
It's not like they took pleasure in it; it was out of necessity, like everything else the Ordos do.
Nerivant wrote:It's not like they took pleasure in it; it was out of necessity, like everything else the Ordos do.
Yeah, it's no fun to kill your unexpecting comrades and spill their blood all over your armour and weapons, but someone has to do it (insert brofist with Khorne berserker)
Reading the BA and particularly GK codices does show some problems with Ward's writing, even though in typical Internetz fashion, furor goes way overboard.
Biggest problem is how Ward treats the bad guys (mostly Daemons). In both books, some of the scariest Daemons imaginable are defeated time and time again, often described in rather casual fashion. These include some top named characters of their own respective Codices (Skarbrand, Kairos, Avatar etc). Lets assume next Chaos Daemons book features M'kar. Why should anyone care? The Grey Knights codex already estabilished he's a total loser, whom Draigo can beat to pulp with his left hand. Quite simply, the bad guys aren't scary anymore after they get the Ward treatment. He's not the only writer in the world history to fall in this trap (David Eddings comes to mind).
Not ALL Ward fluff is this crappy, for example I didn't think that Calgar defeating Avatar in vanilla SM codex was particularly bad passage, despite the nerd rage around it. But much of it is. Draigo description is crap, because it estabilishes that he is totally undefeatable by scariest Daemons described anywhere in the fluff. Why does the Imperium even bother having other Grey Knights, or any other Marines at all, since Draigo can apparently handle everything himself. He doesn't even lead his troops to defeat enemies like Calgar, he does it all by himself!
Which is shame, because the underlying basic idea behind Draigo character isn't that bad, and the miniature looks quite good.
Nerivant wrote:It's not like they took pleasure in it; it was out of necessity, like everything else the Ordos do.
Yeah, it's no fun to kill your unexpecting comrades and spill their blood all over your armour and weapons, but someone has to do it (insert brofist with Khorne berserker)
So what thread did you copy and paste that small quotation from?
I can’t help but feel like Ward’s own apologist for taking the time to do this but…
Valkyrie wrote:Two things I particularly hate:
1: The monotonous layouts of each Codex. Seriously all they have are timelines of famous battles, I would prefer something like the older Necron Codex, where there are a variety of fluff pieces from different sources, such as an Explorator's report or the story of Jaramshela the assassin. Read through the Necron Codex and you'll see what I mean.
2: How every Codex is only focussed on a few things. I can probably guarantee that the next Codex, whatever the race, will involve crap about Malan'tai, Ka'Bhanda and another Necron planet-size ship.
1: The new Codex layout is not restricted to Mr.Ward's books. I personally found the old way of laying the content out in the old codices too messy. Timelines are a convinient way to tell an army's story quickly.
2: Not necessarilly a bad thing. On the brightside, it makes the universe seem more coherent and ties up loose ends. On the other side, it slows the universe's expansion and ties up loose ends.
Kroothawk wrote:He singlehandedly broke Fantasy 7th edition with his Daemon army book. After that competitive play was only possible by adding house rules or not allowing Daemons.
I know nothing about Fantasy, so I can't comment.
Kroothawk wrote:He broke GK fluff by making them almost Khorne worshippers by bathing in the blood of Sororitas to resist the temptation of the Blood God.
iproxtaco seems to be addressing this, but I will throw in that blood-rituals not uncommon amongst Asartes Chapter cults; there's even a Blood Angels successor that call themselves the Blood Drinkers.
Kroothawk wrote:He broke Inquisition fluff by allowing notoriously incooperative Xenos to make up 90% of an Ordo Xenos army.
Except nowhere in the book’s fluff is a Jokearo army supported.
Brother SRM wrote:I like that people think Mat Ward works in a complete vacuum and everything bad in a codex is his fault and his fault only.
Indeed. The Dark Eldar interviews on Youtube clearly show that despite whoever’s name is first on the book, nearly everyone in the studio has a hand in what goes into the codex one way or another. Everyone who bemoans the Dreadknight’s appearance blames Ward, but it’s the studio sculptors who designed it.
Asuron wrote:
Well heres a couple of my problems with him
1: Sorcery and psychic powers are now the same according to him, with Malcador the Sigilte apparentlly being able to hide planets in the warp....
They both involve Warp-trickery. It’s an oversimplification, but I don’t think its incorrect.
Have you read Phil Kelly’s Space Wolf codex? It’s full of Wolf Wolves riding giant Wolves wielding Wolf Claws and wearing Wolf-tooth necklaces. And as svendrex says, Nemesis weapons are a specific family of weapons with their own unique abilities.
Asuron wrote:
5.Purifiers being more pure than the already already pure Grey Knights, with Castellan crowe being even more pure than them, so hes like 200% pure now!
You must not have read much into the Purifier’s entry. The Purifiers aren’t special because they’re “pure”, that wouldn’t set them apart from the rest of the Chapter. They are set apart not because of their immunity to Chaos influence, but by their ability to repel it. Their souls don’t just burn in the Warp as psykers; they scald it. This flame can manifest itself in the material world as a jet of fire that literally incinerates the evil inside a creature. Crowe is the head of the order and holder of his sword because his “anit-chaosness” is strong enough to keep the Blade of Antwyr quiet.
Asuron wrote:7. BA teamup with Necrons
They didn’t “team up” like bros so much as they happened to not be shooting at each other for the duration of the invasion. After the battle, the Necrons left because continuing to fight with their numbers would have been illogical and the Blood Angels got all moral about it.
Asuron wrote:
8. Calgars Falcon Punch
-Has been discussed numerous times across a number of forums, and the consensus is that Calgar can indeed beat an Avatar after its wadded its way through a sea of bolter and cannon fire.
Asuron wrote:
But see the thing is his books have powerful stuff in them and so therefore competitive players buy lots of them, meaning that hes causing sales so they think hes doing stuff right because of it
Ward’s books are actually quite well balanced. He’s not good at wording out his rules, but his books aren’t the cheesefest that Robin Cruddace’s Imperial Guard and Phil Kelly’s Space Wolves codices are. How many of those do you see at the tournaments?
Brother Coa wrote: like what he has done to the rules in 5'th edition, it's not bad at all. But Draigo wrighting on traitor Primarch heart on Plague Planet in warp and Ba teaming up with Necrons to stop Tyranids is a little to much...
…did you not read my previous post at all? Draigo hasn’t been anywhere near the Plague Planet, and as Kanluwen attempted to clarify several days ago, the Horus Heresy series establishes Mortarion as a pushover compared to even his own tactical marines.
Backfire wrote:Reading the BA and particularly GK codices does show some problems with Ward's writing, even though in typical Internetz fashion, furor goes way overboard.
Biggest problem is how Ward treats the bad guys (mostly Daemons). In both books, some of the scariest Daemons imaginable are defeated time and time again, often described in rather casual fashion. These include some top named characters of their own respective Codices (Skarbrand, Kairos, Avatar etc). Lets assume next Chaos Daemons book features M'kar. Why should anyone care? The Grey Knights codex already estabilished he's a total loser, whom Draigo can beat to pulp with his left hand. Quite simply, the bad guys aren't scary anymore after they get the Ward treatment. He's not the only writer to fall in this trap (David Eddings comes to mind).
Good point. I too wish that Ward had made up some of his own daemons to stomp on in the codex rather than diminish the stature of beasts like Kah’banda.
Backfire wrote:Not ALL Ward fluff is this crappy, for example I didn't think that Calgar defeating Avatar in vanilla SM codex was particularly bad passage, despite the nerd rage around it. But much of it is. Draigo description is crap, because it estabilishes that he is totally undefeatable by scariest Daemons described anywhere in the fluff. Why does the Imperium even bother having other Grey Knights, or any other Marines at all, since Draigo can apparently handle everything himself. He doesn't even lead his troops to defeat enemies like Calgar, he does it all by himself!
Which is shame, because the underlying basic idea behind Draigo character isn't that bad, and the miniature looks quite good.
I feel like I'm one of the few people who actually LIKES the rulebooks that Matt Ward writes. I'm kind of opposed to Marine armies (as I like the idea of regular joes combating the forces of eternal darkness), but I own and have genuinely appreciated the new direction that his books are going. I've been in the hobby since I was in 5th grade, and getting to the far side of college now, I've had ample to reflect on how the game is changing.
It seems like a lot of the hate out there is for relatively insubstantial reasons. First and foremost, 40k is a GAME, and therefore the RULES contained in the various codices are probably the most important aspect of the product. That said, I'm a fan of the fiction, too. I play some of the 40k roleplaying games that Fantasy Flight churns out (and indeed I live about twenty minutes from the company headquarters store) and love the work that goes into them. When you read about the insane gak that gets put into codexes, you need to take into account a quote spoken by Alan Bligh: "The Imperium has this tendency to mythologize everything... Space Marines are very demi-god like in their aspect, surely not only in their superhuman stature but as Gods of Battle..."
Most of the fluff I read in Marine books and indeed other iterations like Guard or Grey Knights, I imagine that I am essentially reading a piece of propaganda. I am the layman Imperial citizen consuming this material, a person in the 40k mythos who is in dire need of heroes like Kaldor Draigo, who carves his name into the rotting heart of a Daemon Primarch.
There's nothing particularly constant about the 40k mythos. Take what you like and make it yours. Not every word needs be gospel.
Backfire wrote:Reading the BA and particularly GK codices does show some problems with Ward's writing, even though in typical Internetz fashion, furor goes way overboard.
Biggest problem is how Ward treats the bad guys (mostly Daemons). In both books, some of the scariest Daemons imaginable are defeated time and time again, often described in rather casual fashion. These include some top named characters of their own respective Codices (Skarbrand, Kairos, Avatar etc). Lets assume next Chaos Daemons book features M'kar. Why should anyone care? The Grey Knights codex already estabilished he's a total loser, whom Draigo can beat to pulp with his left hand. Quite simply, the bad guys aren't scary anymore after they get the Ward treatment. He's not the only writer in the world history to fall in this trap (David Eddings comes to mind).
Not ALL Ward fluff is this crappy, for example I didn't think that Calgar defeating Avatar in vanilla SM codex was particularly bad passage, despite the nerd rage around it. But much of it is. Draigo description is crap, because it estabilishes that he is totally undefeatable by scariest Daemons described anywhere in the fluff. Why does the Imperium even bother having other Grey Knights, or any other Marines at all, since Draigo can apparently handle everything himself. He doesn't even lead his troops to defeat enemies like Calgar, he does it all by himself!
Which is shame, because the underlying basic idea behind Draigo character isn't that bad, and the miniature looks quite good.
+1 to this. I’ve posted something similar in the past regarding how Ward misuses 40k fluff to show how badass his characters are. At the end of the day, nothing is wrong with a heroic character triumphing over a powerful villain as a piece of fluff. It only becomes an issue when the said villains in question are the likes of someone like Mortarion (Draigo’s fluff is incredibly notorious because he didn’t just defeat just 1 named character, he defeated several). Using upper level characters as cheap plot devices is a sign of bad story writing in my opinion.
People hate Mat(t?) (thew?) [which is it?] Ward because he makes Phil Kelly look like Malcolm X. Chappell's show reference anyone. In all seriousness people hate Mr. Ward because he ruins armies by touching the codex. GK have no history or Khorne like blood sacrifice, now they do cause of Ward. also the whole Ultramarine's being the best and all other space marines wanting to really be Ultramarine's. I think a lot is just bandwagon hatred too.
Nerivant wrote:It's not like they took pleasure in it; it was out of necessity, like everything else the Ordos do.
Yeah, it's no fun to kill your unexpecting comrades and spill their blood all over your armour and weapons, but someone has to do it (insert brofist with Khorne berserker)
And what if they agreed to that? There is no mention of that to?
candy.man wrote:At the end of the day, nothing is wrong with a heroic character triumphing over a powerful villain as a piece of fluff. It only becomes an issue when the said villains in question are the likes of someone like Mortarion (Draigo’s fluff is incredibly notorious because he didn’t just defeat just 1 named character, he defeated several). Using upper level characters as cheap plot devices is a sign of bad story writing in my opinion.
This right here is the underlying problem. If I wrote in a fanfic that my Archon Xelkireth carved his name into Marneus Calgar or even Mephiston's chest the thread would get flamed to pieces and probably locked due to the massive amounts of incivility contained therein. Nevermind the fact that rules-wise, my Archon probably could carve his name into those characters' chests before they even landed a blow on him, it's the blatant disregard to 25+ years of pre-existing canon/background story/fluff.
Myself, I have more like for Ward than I do for Kelly. The amount of frustration Ward's horrible fluff writing creates pales in comparison to the frustration SW and DE codices create...assuming you are actually playing the game and not talking about the game.
Myself, I have more like for Ward than I do for Kelly. The amount of frustration Ward's horrible fluff writing creates pales in comparison to the frustration SW and DE codices create...assuming you are actually playing the game and not talking about the game.
What frustration does the Dark Eldar codex create? It's a beautiful book.
Myself, I have more like for Ward than I do for Kelly. The amount of frustration Ward's horrible fluff writing creates pales in comparison to the frustration SW and DE codices create...assuming you are actually playing the game and not talking about the game.
What frustration does the Dark Eldar codex create? It's a beautiful book.
I'm going to have to second that. Especially when compared to the previous book.
iproxtaco wrote: The entire story is in-keeping with the image the development team wanted for the Grey Knights book. The entire image is just the old image with more details and certain parts explained with more depth. It's VERY 40k, and VERY Grey Knights. There are numerous events like The Bloodtide that have happened before, involving other Imperial Armies, never seen them really complained about before.
This one jumps out at people more because the books keep harping on and on about how pure and perfect the GK are, about how none have ever fallen, about how they mind is made of iron and did we mention just how damn pure they are? If a GK bathes in a cesspool, after 5 minutes, the water is perfectly drinkable and smell faintly of lavender.
And then they go ahead and commit a rather evil act so they won't get corrupted. Which make most people go 'Wait, what?'. The whole thing makes about as much sense as setting yourself on fire to avoid getting cold. I mean, yeah, it'll work, but nobody should need to tell you why it's a bad idea. Not to mention that SoB's faith comes from their belief in the Emperor... I don't really get how their blood would work as a 'corruption retardant' - if anything you'd think killing SoBs would be a pretty terrible act that takes you closer to corruption...
If Matt Ward was a writer worth a damn, he'd have found a way to show the GK come off in the 'We ain't afraid of nothing' way he wanted to (Stalward defender, willing to do whatever it takes to win)... but since he isn't, and he made them come off as a super pure fighter of virtue - the whole thing just make them look like hypocrite. The books tones clashes with itself. He wrote himself in a corner, making the GK so good at their job they can single handedly kill Greater Deamons and making totally uncorruptible... and then 2 text block later, they need SoB blood in order not be corrupted. Again, 'Wait, what?'.
Hence why all the Khorne related joke around the piece of fluff. Hence why all the 'hate'. Hence why other blood sacrifice get skimmed over... I mean, nobody is going to be shocked to hear the Blood Drinkers drink blood or the Flesh Tearers tear flesh. And there is nothing wrong with the GKs being total bastards - but stick to it the entire book, don't change your mind with every new entry.
Personally I don't mind so much about the fluff... but as SM (Vanilla) and Ork players, I kinda feel Ward is giving me the finger with every marine book he write that is twice as good as the first one he wrote :(
iproxtaco wrote: For example, a lot of people THINK the Grey Knights 'slaughtered' the SoB and 'bathed' in their blood. 'Bathed' is never used in the passage, nor is 'slaughtered'.
Codex Grey Knights wrote:Needing a talisman of purity to protect against the Bloodtide's taint, the Grey Knight's first act is to turn their blades upon the surviving Sisters of Battle. The innocent blood thus spilled is then mixed with blessed oil and used to anoint the Grey Knight's armour and weapons.
So to overcome the lure of the Blood God, they kill innocent comrades and cover their armour and weapons with their blood.
Riiiiight...
Not only am I never going to start a Grey Knights army, I think I'm gonna be physically sick, despite the fictional nature. This Law & Order: Special Victims Unit episode on TV isn't helping at all.
Tarkand wrote:
This one jumps out at people more because the books keep harping on and on about how pure and perfect the GK are, about how none have ever fallen, about how they mind is made of iron and did we mention just how damn pure they are? If a GK bathes in a cesspool, after 5 minutes, the water is perfectly drinkable and smell faintly of lavender.
And then they go ahead and commit a rather evil act so they won't get corrupted. Which make most people go 'Wait, what?'. The whole thing makes about as much sense as setting yourself on fire to avoid getting cold. I mean, yeah, it'll work, but nobody should need to tell you why it's a bad idea. Not to mention that SoB's faith comes from their belief in the Emperor... I don't really get how their blood would work as a 'corruption retardant' - if anything you'd think killing SoBs would be a pretty terrible act that takes you closer to corruption...
No, it actually makes perfect sense. GK are pure and uncorruptible, because they are ready to do anything to avoid being corrupted. Including some acts which might seem terrible and heinous when taken out of context, but in the end it's all for Greater Good. Er, I mean 'greater good'.
Really, I don't see what's the problem here. I guess some people think GK should be saints. They aren't, they are just bunch of people who have very serious job to do, and are ready to do pretty much anything to get the job done. They can't afford empathy.
Tarkand wrote:
This one jumps out at people more because the books keep harping on and on about how pure and perfect the GK are, about how none have ever fallen, about how they mind is made of iron and did we mention just how damn pure they are? If a GK bathes in a cesspool, after 5 minutes, the water is perfectly drinkable and smell faintly of lavender.
And then they go ahead and commit a rather evil act so they won't get corrupted. Which make most people go 'Wait, what?'. The whole thing makes about as much sense as setting yourself on fire to avoid getting cold. I mean, yeah, it'll work, but nobody should need to tell you why it's a bad idea. Not to mention that SoB's faith comes from their belief in the Emperor... I don't really get how their blood would work as a 'corruption retardant' - if anything you'd think killing SoBs would be a pretty terrible act that takes you closer to corruption...
No, it actually makes perfect sense. GK are pure and uncorruptible, because they are ready to do anything to avoid being corrupted. Including some acts which might seem terrible and heinous when taken out of context, but in the end it's all for Greater Good. Er, I mean 'greater good'.
Really, I don't see what's the problem here. I guess some people think GK should be saints. They aren't, they are just bunch of people who have very serious job to do, and are ready to do pretty much anything to get the job done. They can't afford empathy.
I'd say that if that's pure and uncorruptible, I really don't want to see the Imperium's version of impurity, much less evil.
I used to have a mental image of the Grey Knights as being like D&D paladins, defenders of the weak and punishers of evil. Uncompromising in their principles and with an inflexible moral code. A shining beacon in the darkness of the Imperium. Their shining silver armor kinda helped that mindset along, given what you see paladins wearing in stereotypical artwork - unblemished silver plate armor, wielding a sword and possibly a shield.
I guess I can buy their lack of morality and empathy, since it fits into the 41st Millennium's Imperium's mindset of, "win or die," resulting in many situations where acts such as this become necessary. That is the point of grimdark after all, is to present a universe where the most terrible things imaginable are everyday occurrences. It's not just the Grey Knights who sicken me with stuff like this. A lot of the stuff from the Witch Hunters Codex about the Inquisition did the same to me, to a lesser extent. It's why my Sisters of Battle army never had Inquisitorial elements bought for it until I found the Sister Hospitaller mini.
I guess it's personal preference on my part. Grimdark is fine for the most part, with everyone fighting everyone for survival, expansion, or fun in the case of the Orks, but this particular one nauseated me more. I once read a book where a unit of power armored troops - not from WH40k - fought from an entrenched position against wave after wave of enemies, until the tops of the mountain pass bottleneck were soaked in their blood, bodies piled up high. That didn't sicken me. Hell, I laughed at a lot of parts of that book, because it was written humorously and the enemies were inhuman aliens. But brutality against women, however well-intentioned - which seems like a total contradiction in my mind - will always nauseate me, even more so if it involves a lot of blood or gore. I can't stomach stuff like this. It's an evil act any way you put it.
It's not so much that it doesn't fit with the Imperium for me. It's that it's an unquestionably evil act that turns the stomach, regardless of who's doing it. If Chaos Worshippers had done it, it would be equally as nauseating for me.
It is confusing though, that the Grey Knights are incorruptible and pure, and then commit an unspeakable act so that they won't be corrupted. It does seem like a contradiction there, and it makes me wonder whether the Chaos Gods actually succeeded in corrupting those Grey Knights.
Ironsight wrote:
…did you not read my previous post at all? Draigo hasn’t been anywhere near the Plague Planet, and as Kanluwen attempted to clarify several days ago, the Horus Heresy series establishes Mortarion as a pushover compared to even his own tactical marines.
Which is a load of guff, even Lorgar could whoop his own marines and he's the biggest wimp of them all.
I consider his fluff to be just terrible. Honestly. Someone previously mentioned that you can just make an army with no grey knights, but with only Jacquerous or whatever their names are and daemonhosts. And what do the inquisitors say?
No! Bad grey knights! Don't do it next time.
And so on and so on...
But as it comes to the game. They are a balanced army. Actually they are the only army so far that orks need to shoot down. Cause I don't know what grey knights couldn't defeat in CC
Pouncey wrote:
I used to have a mental image of the Grey Knights as being like D&D paladins, defenders of the weak and punishers of evil. Uncompromising in their principles and with an inflexible moral code. A shining beacon in the darkness of the Imperium. Their shining silver armor kinda helped that mindset along, given what you see paladins wearing in stereotypical artwork - unblemished silver plate armor, wielding a sword and possibly a shield.
I guess I can buy their lack of morality and empathy, since it fits into the 41st Millennium's Imperium's mindset of, "win or die," resulting in many situations where acts such as this become necessary. That is the point of grimdark after all, is to present a universe where the most terrible things imaginable are everyday occurrences. It's not just the Grey Knights who sicken me with stuff like this. A lot of the stuff from the Witch Hunters Codex about the Inquisition did the same to me, to a lesser extent. It's why my Sisters of Battle army never had Inquisitorial elements bought for it until I found the Sister Hospitaller mini.
I guess it's personal preference on my part. Grimdark is fine for the most part, with everyone fighting everyone for survival, expansion, or fun in the case of the Orks, but this particular one nauseated me more. I once read a book where a unit of power armored troops - not from WH40k - fought from an entrenched position against wave after wave of enemies, until the tops of the mountain pass bottleneck were soaked in their blood, bodies piled up high. That didn't sicken me. Hell, I laughed at a lot of parts of that book, because it was written humorously and the enemies were inhuman aliens. But brutality against women, however well-intentioned - which seems like a total contradiction in my mind - will always nauseate me, even more so if it involves a lot of blood or gore. I can't stomach stuff like this. It's an evil act any way you put it.
Well, if you want that, you can always play Tau
I think the SoB would be offended by suggestion that they should not be hit, because they're girls.
Pouncey wrote:
It is confusing though, that the Grey Knights are incorruptible and pure, and then commit an unspeakable act so that they won't be corrupted. It does seem like a contradiction there, and it makes me wonder whether the Chaos Gods actually succeeded in corrupting those Grey Knights.
It's not confusing at all. It would be lame if GK were 'pure' simply because they were born with some special mutation which renders them immune to Warp. It's all about resolve.
Pouncey wrote:
I used to have a mental image of the Grey Knights as being like D&D paladins, defenders of the weak and punishers of evil. Uncompromising in their principles and with an inflexible moral code. A shining beacon in the darkness of the Imperium. Their shining silver armor kinda helped that mindset along, given what you see paladins wearing in stereotypical artwork - unblemished silver plate armor, wielding a sword and possibly a shield.
I guess I can buy their lack of morality and empathy, since it fits into the 41st Millennium's Imperium's mindset of, "win or die," resulting in many situations where acts such as this become necessary. That is the point of grimdark after all, is to present a universe where the most terrible things imaginable are everyday occurrences. It's not just the Grey Knights who sicken me with stuff like this. A lot of the stuff from the Witch Hunters Codex about the Inquisition did the same to me, to a lesser extent. It's why my Sisters of Battle army never had Inquisitorial elements bought for it until I found the Sister Hospitaller mini.
I guess it's personal preference on my part. Grimdark is fine for the most part, with everyone fighting everyone for survival, expansion, or fun in the case of the Orks, but this particular one nauseated me more. I once read a book where a unit of power armored troops - not from WH40k - fought from an entrenched position against wave after wave of enemies, until the tops of the mountain pass bottleneck were soaked in their blood, bodies piled up high. That didn't sicken me. Hell, I laughed at a lot of parts of that book, because it was written humorously and the enemies were inhuman aliens. But brutality against women, however well-intentioned - which seems like a total contradiction in my mind - will always nauseate me, even more so if it involves a lot of blood or gore. I can't stomach stuff like this. It's an evil act any way you put it.
Well, if you want that, you can always play Tau
I think the SoB would be offended by suggestion that they should not be hit, because they're girls.
Pouncey wrote:
It is confusing though, that the Grey Knights are incorruptible and pure, and then commit an unspeakable act so that they won't be corrupted. It does seem like a contradiction there, and it makes me wonder whether the Chaos Gods actually succeeded in corrupting those Grey Knights.
It's not confusing at all. It would be lame if GK were 'pure' simply because they were born with some special mutation which renders them immune to Warp. It's all about resolve.
Getting hit or killed in battle is one thing. Getting murdered by your brothers-in-arms and your blood spread on their weapons and armor because they're feeling weak is another. It makes me nauseous and gives me a serious aversion to Grey Knights.
I think I'll take my meds now, might calm me down a little after I get some sleep when they start to kick in.
iproxtaco wrote: For example, a lot of people THINK the Grey Knights 'slaughtered' the SoB and 'bathed' in their blood. 'Bathed' is never used in the passage, nor is 'slaughtered'.
Codex Grey Knights wrote:Needing a talisman of purity to protect against the Bloodtide's taint, the Grey Knight's first act is to turn their blades upon the surviving Sisters of Battle. The innocent blood thus spilled is then mixed with blessed oil and used to anoint the Grey Knight's armour and weapons.
So to overcome the lure of the Blood God, they kill innocent comrades and cover their armour and weapons with their blood.
Riiiiight...
Not only am I never going to start a Grey Knights army, I think I'm gonna be physically sick, despite the fictional nature. This Law & Order: Special Victims Unit episode on TV isn't helping at all.
You tell me about that, I am sick from the day I read that. I first read it 3 days ago ( the story ) then I get cold, then my throat screams, now my nose is full of green stuff...
Damn you M.W...
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Backfire wrote:
Really, I don't see what's the problem here. I guess some people think GK should be saints. They aren't, they are just bunch of people who have very serious job to do, and are ready to do pretty much anything to get the job done. They can't afford empathy.
So that means that Space Marines must kill all of the civilians of one planet to stop Hive Fleet from consuming it rather than evacuate it?
And again, where does it said that they killed them? It is said that they "Turn their blades toward them", that may also mean that they only wound them to take a little blood from them to use it for protection. Until we have more detail about that we can all speculate about that, and I am sure that they will fix this over time...
And they are not so bad, they return the Eldar all remained soulstones from Malan'tai.
You see, I HIGHLY doubt half the people that have posted above actually have the codex. If it makes you physically sick then you need to come back to reality. If you thought of them as pure and just before the new codex then you never knew them. If you got the impression that they were pure and just from the current codex, then you've never read it or you read it completely wrong.
You really don't know what you're talking about if you think the Grey Knights purity and their use of sorcery is a contradiction. It's not.
iproxtaco wrote:You see, I HIGHLY doubt half the people that have posted above actually have the codex. If it makes you physically sick then you need to come back to reality. If you thought of them as pure and just before the new codex then you never knew them. If you got the impression that they were pure and just from the current codex, then you've never read it or you read it completely wrong.
You really don't know what you're talking about if you think the Grey Knights purity and their use of sorcery is a contradiction.
It's not.
Dude, Grey Knights are UNCORRECTABLE...it was stated in every codex, story, fluff thus far...
And all of a sudden, they need Sister blood to stay pure? While their Grand Master Draigo is in the warp for how long? And it is still pure???? + he defeated fallen Primarch and carve name of his master on his heart, in warp...
Who is here more insane?
Both stories are ridiculous, and should not be considered fluff... We will let BL and GW writers to deal with that.
If M.W. ever ask me what is my personal though about this 2 stories - I would say him:
Brother Coa wrote:
So that means that Space Marines must kill all of the civilians of one planet to stop Hive Fleet from consuming it rather than evacuate it?
Hmm...isn't that what they do, if they can't evacuate?
The Bloodtide is not ridiculous. They kill some sisters and use sorcery to defeat a very powerful Daemonic force. The Grey Knights kill billions to keep themselves secret and use sorcery all the time in the book. There really isn't anything outstanding about this one.
Do not let the extreme opinions of internet morons sway your opinion when you clearly have not read the book.
iproxtaco wrote:The Bloodtide is not ridiculous. They kill some sisters and use sorcery to defeat a very powerful Daemonic force. The Grey Knights kill billions to keep themselves secret and use sorcery all the time in the book. There really isn't anything outstanding about this one.
Do not let the extreme opinions of internet morons sway your opinion when you clearly have read the book.
Thank you for the book compliment
And where it clearly said that they killed them? i could point a knife toward my cat, that doesn't meant that I would cut her...
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Backfire wrote:
Brother Coa wrote:
So that means that Space Marines must kill all of the civilians of one planet to stop Hive Fleet from consuming it rather than evacuate it?
Hmm...isn't that what they do, if they can't evacuate?
No they not do that...read fluff.
Lamanters and Scytes of the Emperor both stand to the last Marines together with PDF while holding off Tyranid Hive Fleet thus allowing planet populations to evacuate...Only few of the Marines escape...
Clearly you know little about Space Marines....
iproxtaco wrote:Do not let the extreme opinions of internet morons sway your opinion when you clearly have not read the book.
I'd say the opposite - don't let people who have no rebuttal beyond personal insults sway your opinions on what is a thoroughly horrid Codex and easily one of the worst and most disrespectful products GW has put out in quite some time.
Brother Coa wrote: Dude, Grey Knights are UNCORRECTABLE...it was stated in every codex, story, fluff thus far...
Problem is that you assume their 'uncorruptability' is some physical quality they have. Something which would make them immune to things like Gift of Chaos or Mind Worm (which they aren't, at least rules wise). Instead, as was made perfectly clear in both old Daemonhunter Codex and present GK codex, it's because they go through rigorous testing and conditioning which ensures that only those with sufficient resolve and resilience actually make it in the force. If they have to kill bunch of friendlies to achieve their goals, they have resolve to do it. Failure to do so is weakness and means failure of their mission. Such thing is not even unique for the GK. Other Imperials do it all the time. Inquisition Exterminates entire planets to prevent them falling to Tyranids or Daemons. Dark Angels have absolutely no problems killing anyone who finds out too much about their private businesses. etc.
I'm sure that Grey Knights Application Form has questions like this:
"Q.64: You see a Daemon in a Kindergarten. What do you do? A. Shoot the Daemon with my Boltgun, trying not to hit kids. B. Just take it easy. Daemons are people too. C. Nuke it from the orbit. It's the only way to be sure."
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Brother Coa wrote:
Backfire wrote:
Brother Coa wrote: So that means that Space Marines must kill all of the civilians of one planet to stop Hive Fleet from consuming it rather than evacuate it?
Hmm...isn't that what they do, if they can't evacuate?
No they not do that...read fluff. Lamanters and Scytes of the Emperor both stand to the last Marines together with PDF while holding off Tyranid Hive Fleet thus allowing planet populations to evacuate...Only few of the Marines escape... Clearly you know little about Space Marines....
Yes, that's what they did until they discovered it was stupid and pointless. Later, it was Exterminatus as soon as it became clear Tyranids were going to eliminate resistance anyway. OK, technically it was the Inquisition doing the Exterminatus, but Space Marines played along.
Brother Coa wrote:
Dude, Grey Knights are UNCORRECTABLE...it was stated in every codex, story, fluff thus far...
Problem is that you assume their 'uncorruptability' is some physical quality they have. Something which would make them immune to things like Gift of Chaos or Mind Worm (which they aren't, at least rules wise). Instead, as was made perfectly clear in both old Daemonhunter Codex and present GK codex, it's because they go through rigorous testing and conditioning which ensures that only those with sufficient resolve and resilience actually make it in the force. If they have to kill bunch of friendlies to achieve their goals, they have resolve to do it. Failure to do so is weakness and means failure of their mission. Such thing is not even unique for the GK. Other Imperials do it all the time. Inquisition Exterminates entire planets to prevent them falling to Tyranids or Daemons. Dark Angels have absolutely no problems killing anyone who finds out too much about their private businesses. etc.
I'm sure that Grey Knights Application Form has questions like this:
"Q.64: You see a Daemon in a Kindergarten. What do you do?
A. Shoot the Daemon with my Boltgun, trying not to hit kids.
B. Just take it easy. Daemon are people too.
C. Nuke it from the orbit. It's the only way to be sure."
Dude, no....
a. Grey Knights are incorruptible because the have geene-seed directly from the Emperor and they have centuries of training to avoid that. This SoB "sacrifice" is pure s ...
b. Space Marines don't kill innocent people, they are Humanity's defenders. They know that killing innocent is the way of Chaos ( just see Emperor's Children and Word Eaters ). You can also see the examples of Ultramarines, Imperial Fist, Space Wolves and many other chapters....
c. Inquisition don't exterminate planet full of population to stop Tyranids. They first evacuate them, letting Tyranids that they have won the day. After that, they nuke planet full of Tyranids and thus destroying both food and biomass for the Hive Fleet.
d. And of course DA kill everyone who shiff around their personal stuff - I would to.
iproxtaco wrote:Do not let the extreme opinions of internet morons sway your opinion when you clearly have not read the book.
I'd say the opposite - don't let people who have no rebuttal beyond personal insults sway your opinions on what is a thoroughly horrid Codex and easily one of the worst and most disrespectful products GW has put out in quite some time.
Besides having the book and thoroughly understanding it before pointing out obvious mistakes in peoples reasoning. No personal insults were used. I never specified WHO these internet morons were, however thinking that killing innocents and using sorcery is a unique incident in the codex really does give the impression that you haven't read it.
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Brother Coa wrote:
iproxtaco wrote:The Bloodtide is not ridiculous. They kill some sisters and use sorcery to defeat a very powerful Daemonic force. The Grey Knights kill billions to keep themselves secret and use sorcery all the time in the book. There really isn't anything outstanding about this one.
Do not let the extreme opinions of internet morons sway your opinion when you clearly have read the book.
Thank you for the book compliment
And where it clearly said that they killed them? i could point a knife toward my cat, that doesn't meant that I would cut her...
I still don't think you've read it.
In the passage.
'turn their blades upon the surviving Sisters of Battle' That means they killed them. To turn your blade upon means to kill someone with your weapon.
Brother Coa wrote:
b. Space Marines don't kill innocent people, they are Humanity's defenders. They know that killing innocent is the way of Chaos ( just see Emperor's Children and Word Eaters ). You can also see the examples of Ultramarines, Imperial Fist, Space Wolves and many other chapters....
Clearly you haven't read much Black Templars, Flesh Tearers, Minotaurs, etc fluff.
A Space Marine will kill anyone necessary to accomplish a mission. If that necessitates killing a hundred innocents to kill a single bad guy, regrettable but so be it. They won't slaughter wontonly for no reason, but they get to decide whatever reason they see fit...
Different chapters will have different standards. Ultramarines are generic mary-sue heroes so of course always do "the right thing", but there's plenty of fluff on Space Marines killing huge numbers of civilians to accomplish whatever goals they deem necessary. The Iron Hands actively hate civillians as they are weak and care not for their survival, the loyalist Minotaurs during the Badab war not only lay waste to several worlds and population centers, but then return to reap a great tally of slaves to continue their operations. In "Soul Hunter" the human crew of a Night Lords cruiser *and* their families, who really have no idea what's going on aside from that the Night Lords are their masters and know nothing of Chaos or the like, are butchered by the Blood Angels simply for available while the BA's make their way through the ship.
c. Inquisition don't exterminate planet full of population to stop Tyranids. They first evacuate them, letting Tyranids that they have won the day. After that, they nuke planet full of Tyranids and thus destroying both food and biomass for the Hive Fleet.
They'll evacuate what they can, if they can. That usually means a handful of important/rich/skilled people and that's it. The fluff for several editions now has been very clear that the Inquisition sacrificed billions upon billions in their exterminatus campaign to starve out the tyranids.
Brother Coa wrote:
a. Grey Knights are incorruptible because the have geene-seed directly from the Emperor and they have centuries of training to avoid that. This SoB "sacrifice" is pure s ...
b. Space Marines don't kill innocent people, they are Humanity's defenders. They know that killing innocent is the way of Chaos ( just see Emperor's Children and Word Eaters ). You can also see the examples of Ultramarines, Imperial Fist, Space Wolves and many other chapters....
a. That's right. They have centuries of training about how to protect themselves from Chaos. Some of these measures may be little extreme...
b. And Inquisition, Grey Knights, Imperial Navy, Imperial Guard etc. are also Humanity's defenders. As for the Space Wolves, they themselves probably killed quite a bunch of Sisters in their brief war against Ecclesiarchy. So much for the moral high ground?
Brother Coa wrote:
a. Grey Knights are incorruptible because the have geene-seed directly from the Emperor and they have centuries of training to avoid that. This SoB "sacrifice" is pure s ...
b. Space Marines don't kill innocent people, they are Humanity's defenders. They know that killing innocent is the way of Chaos ( just see Emperor's Children and Word Eaters ). You can also see the examples of Ultramarines, Imperial Fist, Space Wolves and many other chapters....
a. That's right. They have centuries of training about how to protect themselves from Chaos. Some of these measures may be little extreme...
I understand extreme measures to achieve goals. But, during their training they're really taught to kill a number of the most faithful worshippers of the emperor, to make their armor and blades 150% pure when they were already 125% pure because due to their resolve, will, and a portion from the most pure and incorrupted gene seed? That's what makes no sense. If they had to fight their way through a mass of civilians to get to a single bad guy, that's acceptable. If they have to bomb/nuke/exterminatus an area to destroy all opposition even though it would mean the deaths of billions of people, that's also reasonable in the Grimdark reality.
But, to say that the killing of the only warriors who had enough faith to remain faithful through the Bloodtide to annoint your already holy-annointed armor with blood makes no sense. The Grey Knights are already 100% pure and incorruptible from a variety of reasons. If this is just because of their resolve, then killing the Sisters of Battle to create purity seals is just them acknowledging that they are not as incorruptible as they are made out to be. Which essentially invalidates all of the rest of the fluff.
roadkizzle wrote:
But, to say that the killing of the only warriors who had enough faith to remain faithful through the Bloodtide to annoint your already holy-annointed armor with blood makes no sense. The Grey Knights are already 100% pure and incorruptible from a variety of reasons. If this is just because of their resolve, then killing the Sisters of Battle to create purity seals is just them acknowledging that they are not as incorruptible as they are made out to be.
There is no conflict. GK are 'incorruptible' because they take extreme measures to make sure they won't get corrupted. It does NOT mean they have some sort of AwesomePower (tm) which protects them from all influences of Chaos.
People get worked up about Mat Ward because they make it their mission to get incredibly upset over one author's representation of a fictional universe that includes space-elves, daemons, orks and giant man-eating insects.
Seriously, if the *worst* most *pressing issue* that people have in their lives is to bitch and complain about someone who writes about a made-up, sci-fi universe, then evidently this world isn't as screwed up as global news and media outlets make it out to be.
I know the internet is an outlet for nerd-rage and all, but this whole Mat Ward fiasco has gone way, way too far.
I really hate people who post these kinds of things. Who the hell cares if people get worked up about this kind of stuff? Understand that this is a forum for discussing this kind of thing. Do you think you are above some people by posting that kind of comment? That you have some sort of 'higher understanding' just because you have the arrogance to assume that you are the only one to 'raise' yourself up above the argument and post some apparently witty or intelligent comment? With over 1000 posts and gallery images, YOU are involved quite deeply in the hobby, it's an integral part of many peoples lives, we all have the right to argue as passionately as we want, it certainly does not effect you. Just because you feel your needless input is wanted does not make you better than anyone else here and it definitely is not the 'discussion ending' post you want it to be. I may argue and disagree with many people on this forum, but I find that insulting that you think yourself better than the rest.
Lycaeus Wrex wrote:People get worked up about Mat Ward because they make it their mission to get incredibly upset over one author's representation of a fictional universe that includes space-elves, daemons, orks and giant man-eating insects.
Seriously, if the *worst* most *pressing issue* that people have in their lives is to bitch and complain about someone who writes about a made-up, sci-fi universe, then evidently this world isn't as screwed up as global news and media outlets make it out to be.
I know the internet is an outlet for nerd-rage and all, but this whole Mat Ward fiasco has gone way, way too far.
L. Wrex
There's plenty of worse stuff to complain about in the world. That's always been the case, and it always will be. That doesn't mean that we should be silent about everything else simply because it isn't the worst thing present in our lives.
I have schizophrenia, but kids across the globe are starving to death every day.
GW's prices are going up, but AIDS is a rampant problem.
One state in the USA nullified collective bargaining, but there are plenty of tyrannical dictators out there oppressing their own people.
There's always something worse to complain about. That doesn't mean that nothing else is worth the effort to complain about.
roadkizzle wrote:
But, to say that the killing of the only warriors who had enough faith to remain faithful through the Bloodtide to annoint your already holy-annointed armor with blood makes no sense. The Grey Knights are already 100% pure and incorruptible from a variety of reasons. If this is just because of their resolve, then killing the Sisters of Battle to create purity seals is just them acknowledging that they are not as incorruptible as they are made out to be.
There is no conflict. GK are 'incorruptible' because they take extreme measures to make sure they won't get corrupted. It does NOT mean they have some sort of AwesomePower (tm) which protects them from all influences of Chaos.
Except that's not how it's portrayed. At all. I understand that is what Matt Ward meant to say... problem is, that is not what he said.
The book doesn't go on and say 'GK are willingly to do some serious gak not to be corrupted by the warp'.... no, it says stuff like:
'An incorruptible army of genetically modified warrior'
'Purifier recruit only from those amongst their Battle-Brother whose souls are considered to be utterly incorruptible and resistant to the temptations of the Warp - even by the exacting standards of the Grey Knight '
Not only is this sloppy writting (A it really come off as 'GK are pure, purifier are even more pure and Crowe is even more pure pure pure times infinity!!!!!1!!'), but you'll notice that nowhere is Incorruptible or Pure used with quotation. Nowhere is there kind of annotation that specificy that the reason why they are incorruptible is because they know how to not be corrupted.
Ultimately, the fluff tell us they cannot be corrupted... and then they tell us a story that implies that they are quite corruptible, but were able to find a way around it. It's a contradiction, a tonal inconsistency... it's bad writing.
This would be the same thing as if after 60 years of claiming the Hulk (GK) was the strongest there is (Incorruptible), they'd write a story where he was losing an arm wrestling contest (In risk of getting corrupted) and only won because he manage to distract the other guy (Using SoB blood to protect themselves)... yes, they can still claim the Hulk never lost an arm wrestling contest (never got corrupted), but they can no longer say he's the strongest (Incorruptible).
iproxtaco wrote:
I still don't think you've read it.
In the passage.
'turn their blades upon the surviving Sisters of Battle' That means they killed them. To turn your blade upon means to kill someone with your weapon.
I have read it, who doesn't?
And does 'turn their blades upon' mean something else beside killing? Here we translate it as pointing your weapon toward someone, not necessarily killing them.
iproxtaco wrote:I really hate people who post these kinds of things. Who the hell cares if people get worked up about this kind of stuff? Understand that this is a forum for discussing this kind of thing. Do you think you are above some people by posting that kind of comment? That you have some sort of 'higher understanding' just because you have the arrogance to assume that you are the only one to 'raise' yourself up above the argument and post some apparently witty or intelligent comment? With over 1000 posts and gallery images, YOU are involved quite deeply in the hobby, it's an integral part of many peoples lives, we all have the right to argue as passionately as we want, it certainly does not effect you. Just because you feel your needless input is wanted does not make you better than anyone else here and it definitely is not the 'discussion ending' post you want it to be.
I may argue and disagree with many people on this forum, but I find that insulting that you think yourself better than the rest.
MOVE ALONG.
I have never claimed myself better than anyone else, I just find it interesting to what extent one author can get scapegoated for the woes of an entire business operation. Rules are crap? Mat Ward. Fluff is crap? Mat Ward. Gameplay can be debated over? Mat Ward. It seems that this man can do no right; his next book might be god's gift to 40k, but people will probably take one look at the author, groan inwardly, and then run to a forum to complain about how much Ward has desecrated their fluff this time around.
I only got back into the GW hobby 2 years ago, so I don't know whether its a common theme to focus all ire and loathing upon a single individual, maybe its happened in the past, I don't know. I *DO* know however that when people are demanding someone's head, both figuratively and in some cases literally, it has gone a bit too far. I don't see as much anger aimed at Kirby as at Mat Ward (this past week notwithstanding) and he's doing far more to ruin the entire hobby than writing a codex or two.
But I digress, I suppose I'll add that in my opinion, which is as valuable or as worthless as you perceive it to be, Ward isn't that bad. He hasn't won many fans through his work, but its perfectly acceptable in a 'Yeah, that's kind of cool.' colloquial-esque kind of way.
iproxtaco wrote:I really hate people who post these kinds of things. Who the hell cares if people get worked up about this kind of stuff? Understand that this is a forum for discussing this kind of thing. Do you think you are above some people by posting that kind of comment? That you have some sort of 'higher understanding' just because you have the arrogance to assume that you are the only one to 'raise' yourself up above the argument and post some apparently witty or intelligent comment? With over 1000 posts and gallery images, YOU are involved quite deeply in the hobby, it's an integral part of many peoples lives, we all have the right to argue as passionately as we want, it certainly does not effect you. Just because you feel your needless input is wanted does not make you better than anyone else here and it definitely is not the 'discussion ending' post you want it to be.
I may argue and disagree with many people on this forum, but I find that insulting that you think yourself better than the rest.
MOVE ALONG.
It's not that easy, if someone like Humanity defenders who was always portrait like pure and righteous ( like Grey Knights ) do something like that - what would you expect from people who where seeing them this way before they do this kind of thing. I was so shocked that I got sick, really sick. And if this is Imperium's "pure and justice" I cannot imagine "corrupt and evil" side of the Imperium.
People are mad because GK where suppose to be the good guys to the bone, now look at them. And that means if M.W. has done that to GK, imagine what he can do to Tau or Necrons...
Really not sure why everyone is complaining about the sisters part. Go look up the definition of anoint for one thing. For another in the old book and the current it states in multiple places how they either erase the memories of their allies or outright kill them all to keep their secret intact. So this fluff is in perfect keeping with the GK. Draigo I will admit is over the top but overall there are a bunch of other examples of ridiculous and badly written fluff from other sources that all of this hate seems frankly very childish. But then what else would you expect from people playing with toy soldiers. (this is supposed to be sarcasm, not flamey. Really hate that I need to clarify it at all. /rolls eyes)
iproxtaco wrote:I really hate people who post these kinds of things. Who the hell cares if people get worked up about this kind of stuff? Understand that this is a forum for discussing this kind of thing. Do you think you are above some people by posting that kind of comment? That you have some sort of 'higher understanding' just because you have the arrogance to assume that you are the only one to 'raise' yourself up above the argument and post some apparently witty or intelligent comment? With over 1000 posts and gallery images, YOU are involved quite deeply in the hobby, it's an integral part of many peoples lives, we all have the right to argue as passionately as we want, it certainly does not effect you. Just because you feel your needless input is wanted does not make you better than anyone else here and it definitely is not the 'discussion ending' post you want it to be.
I may argue and disagree with many people on this forum, but I find that insulting that you think yourself better than the rest.
MOVE ALONG.
It's not that easy, if someone like Humanity defenders who was always portrait like pure and righteous ( like Grey Knights ) do something like that - what would you expect from people who where seeing them this way before they do this kind of thing. I was so shocked that I got sick, really sick. And if this is Imperium's "pure and justice" I cannot imagine "corrupt and evil" side of the Imperium.
People are mad because GK where suppose to be the good guys to the bone, now look at them. And that means if M.W. has done that to GK, imagine what he can do to Tau or Necrons...
I don't understand, why are you replying to my post? My criticism of that guy really has nothing to do with the Grey Knights or Mat Ward.
The Grey Knights have never been portrayed as the good guys. Never. Your assumption is likely taken from some other thread, where you saw one guy say they were not as bad in the past, not from any source you've seen. They are nor 'pure and just' in the sense you think. They do what is necessary, putting their souls on the line to protect the human race whatever the cost, by any means.
Good guys to the bone? Wha!? Again, they have never been like that.
What will Mat Ward do to the Tau? If Mat Ward can take the Grey Knights, and KEEP THE SAME IMAGE, I'd have no problem with him KEEPING THE SAME IMAGE when doing Tau or the Necrons.
Brother Coa wrote:
People are mad because GK where suppose to be the good guys to the bone, now look at them.
Since when? They defend humanity as a *whole* from the predations of the warp. They'll massacre civilians and children if they think it's necessary to protect even more people from the influence of the Daemonic. The will attack and destroy those they have fought alongside to keep hidden and secret knowledge of the Ruinous Powers. They are ruthless and determined. They are not "good guys to the bone", they are dread warriors who do whatever it takes.
That said, the Sisters story was dumb not because it was the GK's attacking other imperial forces, but because, at least fluffwise, they don't need that kind of protection and the sisters would have made better allies in the fight, and smearing blood on themselves doesn't really sound like an Inquisition-y/Grey Knights thing to do.
Had they turned on and destroyed the sisters after the battle to keep the forbidden knowledge they gained a secret, nobody would have had an issue with that, if fits the GK's fluff perfectly.
But the way they did it made them sound more like Khornate cultists than the Inquisitions Chamber Militiant.
And yet the use of sorcery inverted in purpose to fight the forces of the Warp is also entirely in-keeping with the general concept if the Grey Knights, in the past and now. They use whatever methods that are effective, regardless of what it is. It's something a lot of people just seem to miss no matter how many times they 'read their codex' or read it on a post
iproxtaco wrote:And yet the use of sorcery inverted in purpose to fight the forces of the Warp is also entirely in-keeping with the general concept if the Grey Knights, in the past and now. They use whatever methods that are effective, regardless of what it is. It's something a lot of people just seem to miss no matter how many times they 'read their codex' or read it on a post
Except that the use of Sorcery always corrupts eventually. To me that is one of the themes of Warhammer 40K. Trucking with the powers of the enemy always corrupts no matter what your intentions may be. The Path to Hell and all that. Why should Grey Knight techniques be special to only them? Surely Ordo Malleus Inquisitors can know them too? Everyone of them who uses these powers is always corrupted in the end. It is a radical change in how Grey Knights operated since the discriminated previously on associating with anybody who used daemonhosts or sorcery. Its a little off putting. After all the Primarchs are mighty beings and they fell to chaos too. I 'm fairly certain that Magnus and Fulgrim did not readily embrace Chaos. Magnus was well prepared and knew the dangers and he is still a daemon primarch now right?
Backfire wrote:I'm sure that Grey Knights Application Form has questions like this:
"Q.64: You see a Daemon in a Kindergarten. What do you do?
A. Shoot the Daemon with my Boltgun, trying not to hit kids.
B. Just take it easy. Daemons are people too.
C. Nuke it from the orbit. It's the only way to be sure."
Haha, using that format, C would be the right answer through the whole test.
Honestly, I think there is a lot of confusion. I did not read the old codex, and have not read the new grey knight codex. But from the way others talked about grey knights, and the stories that I had read, the G.K were always portrayed as to "paladin" example that's been used already. Even with shining armour. I know they would kill people to save a whole planet and what not, as all space marines do, and inquisition, but there is a big difference in the S.o.B story for two reasons. 1. They are killing them to become more pure from chaos, which wold simply mean they are not incorruptible as has been said several times. 2. They are not killing civilians, they killed S.o.B who had been defending the planet waiting for aid. It is like showing up to some school yard brawl where 3 f your friends are fighting 10 guys and you just kick your friends in the nuts and use them as human shields to run through the 10 bullies. it is just f'd up no matter how you cut it. also, if it is OK to kill your own allies then that means g.k can not be trusted at all. so f them. i would not want them to show up to my battle they might turn around and kill me. so thank you mat ward for making me hate grey knights.
also. i think the major reasons have been hit at this points.
1. Fantasy rules? I don't play fantasy but someone brought it up
2. Ultramarine's being super mega special awesome cool fun idols of all space marines
3. Grey Knights being just like everyone else, and thus not special.
4. Over redundant to the extreme such as Nemesis and Blood
iproxtaco wrote: The Grey Knights have never been portrayed as the good guys. Never. Your assumption is likely taken from some other thread, where you saw one guy say they were not as bad in the past, not from any source you've seen. They are nor 'pure and just' in the sense you think. They do what is necessary, putting their souls on the line to protect the human race whatever the cost, by any means.
Good guys to the bone? Wha!? Again, they have never been like that. What will Mat Ward do to the Tau? If Mat Ward can take the Grey Knights, and KEEP THE SAME IMAGE, I'd have no problem with him KEEPING THE SAME IMAGE when doing Tau or the Necrons.
And putting not just your life, but your soul for the protection of the entire race is not just? Yes their methods are harsh ( see 1'st war for Armageddon ) but in the end it is they who gave their lives to save Humanity and doing necessary thing to that others would do with great burden. This with SoB just destroyed their image that they ignite fear int daemons and that daemons are hurt by their very presence. And why killing potential allies for something your don't need?
Earlier I saw them as saviors of man, now I see them as butchers. How is that for same image? So in the next codec, if Matt say that Tau are killing every Human on a planet that won't except the grater good would it change the way how people see the Tau?
Brother Coa wrote:And putting not just your life, but your soul for the protection of the entire race is not just? Yes their methods are harsh ( see 1'st war for Armageddon ) but in the end it is they who gave their lives to save Humanity and doing necessary thing to that others would do with great burden. This with SoB just destroyed their image that they ignite fear int daemons and that daemons are hurt by their very presence. And why killing potential allies for something your don't need?
Earlier I saw them as saviors of man, now I see them as butchers. How is that for same image?
So in the next codec, if Matt say that Tau are killing every Human on a planet that won't except the grater good would it change the way how people see the Tau?
Have you tried reading the fluff that you claim to know about?
We've already established that you don't know a lot about previous GK fluff and think the the new book is a departure without it actually being.
Do you know that in the LAST tau codex, the Tau killed every human on Nimbosa, right? P15, Tau Empire. When the relief force arrived too late, the Tau commander massacred every single member of it. No quarter given.
iproxtaco wrote:
The Grey Knights have never been portrayed as the good guys. Never. Your assumption is likely taken from some other thread, where you saw one guy say they were not as bad in the past, not from any source you've seen. They are nor 'pure and just' in the sense you think. They do what is necessary, putting their souls on the line to protect the human race whatever the cost, by any means.
Good guys to the bone? Wha!? Again, they have never been like that.
What will Mat Ward do to the Tau? If Mat Ward can take the Grey Knights, and KEEP THE SAME IMAGE, I'd have no problem with him KEEPING THE SAME IMAGE when doing Tau or the Necrons.
And putting not just your life, but your soul for the protection of the entire race is not just?
Earlier I saw them as saviors of man, now I see them as butchers. How is that for same image?
So in the next codec, if Matt say that Tau are killing every Human on a planet that won't except the grater good would it change the way how people see the Tau?
It's not when you kill the populations of entire planets to save others. By any means necessary. BY ANY MEANS. They were not just and pure in the same way YOU thought they were.
God. They have never been portrayed as 'saviours', therefore you did not know who the Grey Knights were. They have always done this kind of thing. You have never read about the Grey Knights before the new codex if you thought that they never killed people to protect humanity as a whole. Being a Protector is different from being a saviour.
What? YES! That would absolutely change the way people see the Tau! At the moment they are a more moral and 'good' force in 40k. Killing the innocent population of a planet would be very different from what they do now. It would make them WORSE than the Imperium. They at least don't kill the entire population of a human planet for no reason.
iproxtaco wrote:
What? YES! That would absolutely change the way people see the Tau! At the moment they are a more moral and 'good' force in 40k. Killing the innocent population of a planet would be very different from what they do now. It would make them WORSE than the Imperium. They at least don't kill the entire population of a human planet for no reason.
Oops, page 15 of Tau Empire called and said that Tau are bad guys. :(
What? YES! That would absolutely change the way people see the Tau! At the moment they are a more moral and 'good' force in 40k. Killing the innocent population of a planet would be very different from what they do now. It would make them WORSE than the Imperium. They at least don't kill the entire population of a human planet for no reason.
That would be like the Imperium wiping out every Xenos on a planet.
Which, you know, they do all the time, and tried to do to the Tau.
What? YES! That would absolutely change the way people see the Tau! At the moment they are a more moral and 'good' force in 40k. Killing the innocent population of a planet would be very different from what they do now. It would make them WORSE than the Imperium. They at least don't kill the entire population of a human planet for no reason.
That would be like the Imperium wiping out every Xenos on a planet.
Which, you know, they do all the time, and tried to do to the Tau.
Kinda missed the point though didn't ya? I THOUGHT that the Tau never did that, however, I have been corrected. They are the same as the Imperium.
What? YES! That would absolutely change the way people see the Tau! At the moment they are a more moral and 'good' force in 40k. Killing the innocent population of a planet would be very different from what they do now. It would make them WORSE than the Imperium. They at least don't kill the entire population of a human planet for no reason.
That would be like the Imperium wiping out every Xenos on a planet.
Which, you know, they do all the time, and tried to do to the Tau.
Kinda missed the point though didn't ya? I THOUGHT that the Tau never did that, however, I have been corrected. They are the same as the Imperium.
Someone obviously didn't get their Wheaties this morning.
pretre wrote:
Have you tried reading the fluff that you claim to know about?
We've already established that you don't know a lot about previous GK fluff and think the the new book is a departure without it actually being.
Do you know that in the LAST tau codex, the Tau killed every human on Nimbosa, right? P15, Tau Empire. When the relief force arrived too late, the Tau commander massacred every single member of it. No quarter given.
So yeah, maybe brush up on your fluff a bit.
I know about GK what I have read on Lexicanum. And the few battles they have been with. I know that they did send all of Armageddon population with Imperial Guard defending the planet to camps and interrogation without second thought.
And I didn't heard about Nimbosa at all, there is no mention of that on Lexicanum and the Tau fans claim that that was actually IG that they where killed not civilians.
And I know my fluff, but my PERSONAL view of GK has nothing to do with the fluff. I see them as a crusaders of the righteous.
And oh, you support the point where they kill innocence to AVOID corruption, even if the fluff state that they are incorruptible by any way? That even daemons are burning when they are around?
And their Grand Master is in the warp for how long? Don't have much pure to slay there to make yourself incorruptible, and yet he is still pure?
Automatically Appended Next Post:
pretre wrote: Then they get in a snit over MW when he hasn't changed anything.
Like Necons all of a sudden decide to be nice and tem up? Only to simply go away after that?
Strange behavior for death brining machines...
Brother Coa wrote:I know about GK what I have read on Lexicanum.
Lexicanum is just like wikipedia. It is not a source but an aggregator of other sources. It is prone to have incorrect information.
And I didn't heard about Nimbosa at all, there is no mention of that on Lexicanum and the Tau fans claim that that was actually IG that they where killed not civilians.
Page 15 Tau Empire.
"Led by Commander Brightsword, the full weight of the Tau fell upon Nimbosa and the colonists fought to the last, not a single soul surviving the final attack."
And later regarding the force that arrived too late:
"Brightsword trapped the Imperium's forces within a narrow gorge and systematically destroyed them in a three-hour slaughter."
And I know my fluff, but my PERSONAL view of GK has nothing to do with the fluff. I see them as a crusaders of the righteous.
So this whole thing has nothing to do with the facts, but with your PERSONAL view of what they should be. Ooookay.
And oh, you support the point where they kill innocence to AVOID corruption, even if the fluff state that they are incorruptible by any way? That even daemons are burning when they are around?
The fluff says that their SOULS are near incorruptible and that no GK has fallen YET. It does not, and this is an important point, say their bodies are incorruptible. They can still be subjected to the physical ravages of chaos. No fluff has said they are immune to that. Guess what the Bloodtide was? Oh yeah, physical effects like exploding in a shower of gore.
And their Grand Master is in the warp for how long? Don't have much pure to slay there to make yourself incorruptible, and yet he is still pure?
Body vs Soul. There is a difference between an incorruptible mind and an incorruptible body.
pretre wrote: Then they get in a snit over MW when he hasn't changed anything.
Like Necons all of a sudden decide to be nice and tem up? Only to simply go away after that?
Strange behavior for death brining machines...
Have you read any of the newer fluff for Necrons since oh, I don't know... 5th edition. They are changing quite a bit. Not to mention they have always been unreadable and unknowable in their motives. And the BA who was there was the oldest, most war weary BA ever who longs for death but knows that his job isn't done. Of any BA, it would be he that would walk away.
Stop regurgitating what you heard on the interwebs and go read the actual books.
Automatically Appended Next Post: P179 of the BRB for information on how lords have personality and memory and how not all of them are raving deathmachines. Also, read Fall of Damnos to find out more about how they plot against each other and have many of the same motives as mortals.
Page 15 Tau Empire.
"Led by Commander Brightsword, the full weight of the Tau fell upon Nimbosa and the colonists fought to the last, not a single soul surviving the final attack."
And later regarding the force that arrived too late:
"Brightsword trapped the Imperium's forces within a narrow gorge and systematically destroyed them in a three-hour slaughter."
Hi, Tau fanboy speaking! Just here to say Brightsword was punished for those actions!
But srsly, every faction in 40k is grimdark. It's the way the game is.
Let's stop this discussion and just call him Mad Ward
Oops, page 15 of Tau Empire called and said that Tau are bad guys. :(
Oops, page 15 called again, forgot to mention that Brightsword was sacked immediately after that, reputedly for cruel behavior. Other sources (not yet confirmed by me) continue that he was later hunted down and killed by Shadowsun while trying to defect to the Farsight enclave. The BL novel Killteam has the version, that Brightsword was killed on Ethereals behalf by a human kill team.
Won't go into more detail here, let's concentrate on the Ward hate
Oops, page 15 of Tau Empire called and said that Tau are bad guys. :(
Oops, page 15 called again, forgot to mention that Brightsword was sacked immediately after that, reputedly for cruel behavior.
He was recalled. Not sacked. It was rumored that he was sacked/censured.
Other sources (not yet confirmed by me) continue that he was later hunted down and killed by Shadowsun while trying to defect to the Farsight enclave. The BL novel Killteam has the version, that Brightsword was killed on Ethereals behalf by a human kill team.
Won't go into more detail here, let's concentrate on the Ward hate
Hmm. Haven't read Killteam, that's kind of interesting. Beside the point though, Tau are just as evil as the rest of us.
pretre wrote:
Have you tried reading the fluff that you claim to know about?
We've already established that you don't know a lot about previous GK fluff and think the the new book is a departure without it actually being.
Do you know that in the LAST tau codex, the Tau killed every human on Nimbosa, right? P15, Tau Empire. When the relief force arrived too late, the Tau commander massacred every single member of it. No quarter given.
So yeah, maybe brush up on your fluff a bit.
I know about GK what I have read on Lexicanum. And the few battles they have been with. I know that they did send all of Armageddon population with Imperial Guard defending the planet to camps and interrogation without second thought.
And I didn't heard about Nimbosa at all, there is no mention of that on Lexicanum and the Tau fans claim that that was actually IG that they where killed not civilians.
And I know my fluff, but my PERSONAL view of GK has nothing to do with the fluff. I see them as a crusaders of the righteous.
And oh, you support the point where they kill innocence to AVOID corruption, even if the fluff state that they are incorruptible by any way? That even daemons are burning when they are around?
And their Grand Master is in the warp for how long? Don't have much pure to slay there to make yourself incorruptible, and yet he is still pure?
So all your info is from a single small lexicanum page? Trumped by the codex.
Right, you ignore all the fluff, and form an opinion of them which is the near opposite from what the Grey Knights actually are. Fan ing-tastic. You now have no opinion.
In all honesty, I don't hate the guy, I just dislike the raving mad ideas he creates for his fluff and how things are just numbed down and always made to look the bestest for all the little kiddies while those who have read actual literature and know good story writing roll their eyes and mutter 'here we go again...'
It's like the Twilight idea of vampires compared to the originals. People think now vampires are sparkly, large foreheaded lovers of weak, unattractive girls with a mary-sue complex while those who lived in the time before hear of vampires and immediately grab for the garlic, cross and shut their windows lest they invite them inside.
Some view it as amazing work in writing and love it's idea while many others can't bear it on how it destroys the established idea of what it should be.
iproxtaco wrote:
Right, you ignore all the fluff, and form an opinion of them which is the near opposite from what the Grey Knights actually are. Fan ing-tastic. You now have no opinion.
And what is the fluff? They are still Daemonhunters, they are still one of the most powerful Space Marines and they are still psykers. They are still fighting Chaos and they are still the most loyal and zealous Space Marines in existence... ( no fluff crush there ) And how is that opposite please?
I only never imagine that they would kill in cold blood their allies and use their blood to shield themselves against Chaos? I thought the only way to stop Chaos is to resist it, not going it's ways to defeat it. I don't ignore fluff except the SoB one simply because it's to hard to accept, Armageddon population was one thing but this.... Well It seems that they are not the good guys after all....
And how can you tell someone that he cant have any more opinion Now you are just stupid.
And you all saying that you would not do the same? To kill hundreds to let billions live? I would...go and tell me now I am not the good guy...
When it comes to the stake of the entire race personalities don't matter anymore. GK know that, SoB knows that, SM and IG to.
Anyway, I can't wait for the next Tau, Necron or DE codex to have a real laugh
Have you read Phil Kelly’s Space Wolf codex? It’s full of Wolf Wolves riding giant Wolves wielding Wolf Claws and wearing Wolf-tooth necklaces. And as svendrex says, Nemesis weapons are a specific family of weapons with their own unique abilities.
Asuron wrote:
Except if you read the previous SW book they already had most of that stuff. Wolf Claws and TWC are the only new things with Wolf in them and what else are you gonna call them? Though i wouldn't miss TWC if they weren't in the book.
they'd have no problem killing their allies in cold blood, just not before the fighting was over. The issue isn't the GK's killing other loyal Imperial forces, it's the way they did it. Engaging in what looks and sounds like a Khornate blood ritual is ridiculous. Silencing witnesses after a battle is far more believeable and fitting. They have a track record of that and it shows just as well that the GK's will go to any lengths to accomplish their goals (Ward's stated intention of that story in his WD interview), they didn't need to do what is normally associated with chaos cultists to gain a power they already supposedly have.
Vaktathi wrote:they'd have no problem killing their allies in cold blood, just not before the fighting was over. The issue isn't the GK's killing other loyal Imperial forces, it's the way they did it. Engaging in what looks and sounds like a Khornate blood ritual is ridiculous. Silencing witnesses after a battle is far more believeable and fitting. They have a track record of that and it shows just as well that the GK's will go to any lengths to accomplish their goals (Ward's stated intention of that story in his WD interview), they didn't need to do what is normally associated with chaos cultists to gain a power they already supposedly have.
But everyone here agreed that that's what GK do all the time...
They do whatever is necessary. That is apparently fine. Until of course, it actually comes down to them doing whatever is necessary, in which case it's apparently not fine.
They use to blood of the innocent SoB as a reagent in a mixture which they use to anoint their armour with. This is sorcery.
Sorcery and psychic powers are the two most effective things when combating the Daemonic. The Grey Knights use any means necessary to do defeat the Daemonic. It really isn't that bad.
Automatically Appended Next Post: You aren't Brother Coa, you have no opinion.
Mkay, thinking about it more and having gotten some sleep, I'll admit my former mental image of Grey Knights as sci-fi paladins was unfounded, since I haven't read either of their Codices.
Doesn't make what they do any easier to stomach than what Chaos worshippers do.
iproxtaco wrote:They do whatever is necessary. That is apparently fine. Until of course, it actually comes down to them doing whatever is necessary, in which case it's apparently not fine.
They use to blood of the innocent SoB as a reagent in a mixture which they use to anoint their armour with. This is sorcery.
Sorcery and psychic powers are the two most effective things when combating the Daemonic. The Grey Knights use any means necessary to do defeat the Daemonic. It really isn't that bad.
Automatically Appended Next Post: You aren't Brother Coa, you have no opinion.
As I said before...
The fluff tell us they cannot be corrupted... and then they tell us a story that implies that they are quite corruptible, but were able to find a way around it. It's a contradiction, a tonal inconsistency... it's bad writing.
This would be the same thing as if after 60 years of claiming the Hulk (GK) was the strongest there is (Incorruptible), they'd write a story where he was losing an arm wrestling contest (In risk of getting corrupted) and only won because he manage to distract the other guy (Using SoB blood to protect themselves)... yes, they can still claim the Hulk never lost an arm wrestling contest (never got corrupted), but they can no longer say he's the strongest (Incorruptible).
There's no problem with them doing whatever is necessary... the problem is when they do something that the book has told us dozen of time should not be necessary just for shock value. Again, poor writing.
So it seems like everyone here is refusing to change. One side says "no the GK using Khoric Blood Ritual was swrong no matter how you cut it" the other side saying "The blood thing is no different from anything else GK do, they slaughter people all the time to the salvation of humanity". Personally, it does seem odd that the incorruptible need extra protection from chaos. As for this whole Spirit vs Body debate, If you are pure of spirit than your body will be pure also, so the body being morphed by chaos wouldn't make much sense if they are so pure in spirit.
Regardless, this thread has turned into a debate over GK. When it should be about why people don't like Ward, which the GK codex is just a piece of, in addition to the other various cases where Ward has severely maned a codex
yankees4life3 wrote:As for this whole Spirit vs Body debate, If you are pure of spirit than your body will be pure also, so the body being morphed by chaos wouldn't make much sense if they are so pure in spirit.
How do you figure? If it's a physical sickness, their mind and spirit aren't going to protect them.
yankees4life3 wrote:As for this whole Spirit vs Body debate, If you are pure of spirit than your body will be pure also, so the body being morphed by chaos wouldn't make much sense if they are so pure in spirit.
How do you figure? If it's a physical sickness, their mind and spirit aren't going to protect them.
"We shield ourselves with the armour of contempt"
A thinking among Imperial scholars that a strong and faithful mind can resist physical taint.
It also seems to work to a point...
yankees4life3 wrote:As for this whole Spirit vs Body debate, If you are pure of spirit than your body will be pure also, so the body being morphed by chaos wouldn't make much sense if they are so pure in spirit.
How do you figure? If it's a physical sickness, their mind and spirit aren't going to protect them.
"We shield ourselves with the armour of contempt"
A thinking among Imperial scholars that a strong and faithful mind can resist physical taint.
It also seems to work to a point...
To a point, yeah, up until that Chosen of Nurgle points his finger at you and says, "blurgrblhubl."
yankees4life3 wrote:As for this whole Spirit vs Body debate, If you are pure of spirit than your body will be pure also, so the body being morphed by chaos wouldn't make much sense if they are so pure in spirit.
How do you figure? If it's a physical sickness, their mind and spirit aren't going to protect them.
"We shield ourselves with the armour of contempt"
A thinking among Imperial scholars that a strong and faithful mind can resist physical taint.
It also seems to work to a point...
To a point, yeah, up until that Chosen of Nurgle points his finger at you and says, "blurgrblhubl."
Well it might work...
Depends how strong your mind is.
You might not be corrupted by Chaos taint though you will be dissolved by so many diseases the NHS would simply quit their day job.
At any rate i think it is supposed to apply to passive Chaos taint as opposed to bolts of warp lightning being flung around the place.
yankees4life3 wrote:As for this whole Spirit vs Body debate, If you are pure of spirit than your body will be pure also, so the body being morphed by chaos wouldn't make much sense if they are so pure in spirit.
How do you figure? If it's a physical sickness, their mind and spirit aren't going to protect them.
"We shield ourselves with the armour of contempt"
A thinking among Imperial scholars that a strong and faithful mind can resist physical taint.
It also seems to work to a point...
To a point, yeah, up until that Chosen of Nurgle points his finger at you and says, "blurgrblhubl."
Well it might work...
Depends how strong your mind is.
You might not be corrupted by Chaos taint though you will be dissolved by so many diseases the NHS would simply quit their day job.
At any rate i think it is supposed to apply to passive Chaos taint as opposed to bolts of warp lightning being flung around the place.
I thought Battle Sisters had a special rule that sometimes negated psychic powers due to their faith in the Emperor to keep them safe.
purplefood wrote:Not sure...
They might have a faith power that does it...
If they don't they should.
It's a passive effect called Shield of Faith.
It's more of a disruption effect against psychic powers though, preventing them from being used under some circumstances rather than providing defense from the power's effects after it's been used. Of course, I dunno if it's been removed in the PDF, or if it was errata/FAQed out.
One of their Acts of Faith gives them an invulnerable save equal to their armor save or something like that, though.
I think it might need a tiny boost considering the general power of psychic powers today.
I like that one... a giant f**k you to Bloodletters and their power weapons.
Nerivant wrote:It's not everyone being pissed at Mat Ward, it's Mat Ward pissed at everyone for adding an extra 't' to his first name.
They do so because of the association with the double-T in pr... although the single-T in tw.. works just as well.
Please note that I am merely surmising what others are thinking, and not expressing my own opinion. Just picking up on the gestalt is all. I am sure he is a jolly decent sort who is good to his mother and kind to small fluffy animals. I am also reliably informed that he has a particular fondness for pickles, which marks him out as a singular man of good taste.
Who has a crappy beard and what appears to be a small amount facial mutilation.
but that could equally apply to many a gamer including myself.
I like most of the 5th edition main rules. that I'll admit. From what I've seen with the fluff, he needs to leave that to someone else. Dan Abnett could write circles around him.
I'm just tired of marines getting codex after codex, while armies like armored company are a fringe element, when guard armies are so dependant on tanks. That one i'll never understand.
As for the "ultramarines are the awesomeness" argument, I tend to disagree. They're vanilla marines. I'm sorry but I'd take any other marine codex over vanilla marines.
As for the new stuff that's gonna be pumped out, I'm just waiting for half of the people to go "awesome!" and the other half to go "Damn you Matt!"
i'd be more concerned witht he guy if i wasn't more pressed to just hate GW for their general policies, prices, and business tactics. I love 40k, but despise the company that makes it.
Tarkand wrote:
This one jumps out at people more because the books keep harping on and on about how pure and perfect the GK are, about how none have ever fallen, about how they mind is made of iron and did we mention just how damn pure they are? If a GK bathes in a cesspool, after 5 minutes, the water is perfectly drinkable and smell faintly of lavender.
And then they go ahead and commit a rather evil act so they won't get corrupted. Which make most people go 'Wait, what?'. The whole thing makes about as much sense as setting yourself on fire to avoid getting cold. I mean, yeah, it'll work, but nobody should need to tell you why it's a bad idea. Not to mention that SoB's faith comes from their belief in the Emperor... I don't really get how their blood would work as a 'corruption retardant' - if anything you'd think killing SoBs would be a pretty terrible act that takes you closer to corruption...
No, it actually makes perfect sense. GK are pure and uncorruptible, because they are ready to do anything to avoid being corrupted. Including some acts which might seem terrible and heinous when taken out of context, but in the end it's all for Greater Good. Er, I mean 'greater good'.
Really, I don't see what's the problem here. I guess some people think GK should be saints. They aren't, they are just bunch of people who have very serious job to do, and are ready to do pretty much anything to get the job done. They can't afford empathy.
This reminds me of the second half this video
It really doesn't make sense
The whole book contradicts itself constantly
Automatically Appended Next Post:
iproxtaco wrote:And yet the use of sorcery inverted in purpose to fight the forces of the Warp is also entirely in-keeping with the general concept if the Grey Knights, in the past and now. They use whatever methods that are effective, regardless of what it is. It's something a lot of people just seem to miss no matter how many times they 'read their codex' or read it on a post
Umm let me just explain this to you
When you use sorcery, your making a pact with daemons
DAEMONS
Now think about that for a minute
Now explain to me how they are incorruptible and can't be tempted by daemons and the Chaos gods if they are actively making pacts with them?
Yeah thats what I thought...
Might wanna think things through before you say things like that
Tarkand wrote: This one jumps out at people more because the books keep harping on and on about how pure and perfect the GK are, about how none have ever fallen, about how they mind is made of iron and did we mention just how damn pure they are? If a GK bathes in a cesspool, after 5 minutes, the water is perfectly drinkable and smell faintly of lavender.
And then they go ahead and commit a rather evil act so they won't get corrupted. Which make most people go 'Wait, what?'. The whole thing makes about as much sense as setting yourself on fire to avoid getting cold. I mean, yeah, it'll work, but nobody should need to tell you why it's a bad idea. Not to mention that SoB's faith comes from their belief in the Emperor... I don't really get how their blood would work as a 'corruption retardant' - if anything you'd think killing SoBs would be a pretty terrible act that takes you closer to corruption...
No, it actually makes perfect sense. GK are pure and uncorruptible, because they are ready to do anything to avoid being corrupted. Including some acts which might seem terrible and heinous when taken out of context, but in the end it's all for Greater Good. Er, I mean 'greater good'.
Really, I don't see what's the problem here. I guess some people think GK should be saints. They aren't, they are just bunch of people who have very serious job to do, and are ready to do pretty much anything to get the job done. They can't afford empathy.
This reminds me of the second half this video
It really doesn't make sense The whole book contradicts itself constantly
Automatically Appended Next Post:
iproxtaco wrote:And yet the use of sorcery inverted in purpose to fight the forces of the Warp is also entirely in-keeping with the general concept if the Grey Knights, in the past and now. They use whatever methods that are effective, regardless of what it is. It's something a lot of people just seem to miss no matter how many times they 'read their codex' or read it on a post
Umm let me just explain this to you When you use sorcery, your making a pact with daemons DAEMONS
Now think about that for a minute Now explain to me how they are incorruptible and can't be tempted by daemons and the Chaos gods if they are actively making pacts with them?
Yeah thats what I thought... Might wanna think things through before you say things like that
Explain how it's a contradiction AT ALL. There's really nothing in the book which is contradicted in another part. By that I mean, instead of just saying it, give us proof, quotations plox.
Eh, no. Sorcery is not making a pact with Daemons. It's usually ASSOCIATED with worshippers of Chaos, but it is not about making a pact with Daemons, thus the Grey Knights are not making pacts with Daemons. It's a process associated with ritual and sacrifice fueled by the powers of the Warp (NOT DAEMONS OR CHAOS) or psychic powers in order to have a powerful effect on the Warp or the Material realm. The Thousand Sons and many Loyalist Librarians before the Heresy, and possibly even today, used sorcery, they did not make pacts with Daemons.
The rituals the Grey Knights use are used to destroy Daemons, stop the powers of the Warp in general, and close openings to the Warp. Their rituals are not trying to tempt them to Chaos.
They killed the sisters as a reagent in a ritual to stave off the physical effects of the Bloodtide. No pacts were made.
Actually them killing the Sisters was more along the lines of
"BLOOD FOR THE BLOOD GOD! SKULLS FOR SKULL THRONE!
Automatically Appended Next Post: But yeah, sorcery is not making pact with daemons. The warp is an elemental force, and it is not all evil. Chaos exists within the warp, in the same way that humanity exists within the materium. If you enter the materium, you will probably find them, but it doesn't mean that 100% of the materium IS humanity.
Except its not along those lines in any way, shape or form. They kill many other factions because they do what is necessary. This time it happened to be Sisters of Battle. That doesn't make it any different.
"For the Emperor, we do what we must. We are Humanity's Shield!"
iproxtaco wrote:Except its not along those lines in any way, shape or form. They kill many other factions because they do what is necessary. This time it happened to be Sisters of Battle. That doesn't make it any different.
"For the Emperor, we do what we must. We are Humanity's Shield!"
...or they could march the Custodes into the EoT and destroy everything there. Just sayin'. 10,000 warriors, each and every one better than a GK...
Or they could go get some sniffer dogs and find all the trees Leman Russ has peed on over the last 10,000 years. Should lead you right to him. Then get that fruit thing he was looking for and tell the big E to stop hittin' snooze on his alarm clock, and go save the galaxy.
Or throw a stink-bomb in the EoT. THAT will make the daemons go away
iproxtaco wrote:Except its not along those lines in any way, shape or form. They kill many other factions because they do what is necessary. This time it happened to be Sisters of Battle. That doesn't make it any different.
Except it does. Yes, the GK's will turn on their allies and destroy the, and yes the GK's will kill innocents so tens of billions of others may live. But the way this story was done was just so awful and out of character for the GK's that it just doesn't make sense. It sounds more like a Khornate blood ritual than anything else.
Again, had it been "yay we beat the daemons, now unfortunately you know too much and we have to kill you" that would have fit far better and read much better. Most people would have probably thought that a fairly cool story of the means and methods of the Inquisition and their Chamber Militant. But the whole "bathing in the blood of innocents to protect us from things that bathe in the blood of innocents and that we're already pretty protected against" just reads again like...bad internet fan fiction. Like the Frodo-Sam love stories that weird chick in 3rd period math would read back in ye old days of high school a decade ago.
Feth me, why is it difficult for people to understand? It is not out of character. It is very IN CHARACTER. Plus, there is no bathing. Read the passage, if you actually have the book.
The Bloodtide would have killed the Grey Knights. They are immune from the spiritual side, not from the physical. Thus, to defeat it, they needed an extra layer of physical protection. To defeat the Warp, the most effective tool is sorcery. The Sisters were there, so they used their pure and innocent blood to enact a ritual, which they ANOINTED their armour with, NOT BATHED IN.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Harkens back to the point I made earlier. People and fine with the Grey Knights using any means necessary to defeat their enemies, until for some reason they actually use any means necessary, in which it then for some reason becomes not fine.
Aside from the fluff, I really dislike every codex he has written (as well as the Daemons army book).
He clearly doesn't have the same sense for internal balance as the other two main writers of the moment (Kelly and Cruddace). And his books seem to lack a kind of creativity lends personality to lists. For him, creativity means an over-the-top special character and random reorganisations of the FoC. First Land Radiers are Heavy, then Dedicated, then Heavy. Stormravens are Heavy then Fast, etc. You just don't get the sense that he has a focused vision.
With GK he has made rules that jeopardize the fun of the game (warp quake, cleansing flamer) in the name of the rule of cool (or his idea of it).
This is all aside from the travesty that is his background fluff.
I really do find it incredible that he is still being given the keys by GW. I feel certain there are hundreds of people in the hobby all over the world who would willingly take his place and do a better job.
TutorialBoss wrote:He clearly doesn't have the same sense for internal balance as the other two main writers of the moment (Kelly and Cruddace). And his books seem to lack a kind of creativity lends personality to lists. For him, creativity means an over-the-top special character and random reorganisations of the FoC. First Land Radiers are Heavy, then Dedicated, then Heavy. Stormravens are Heavy then Fast, etc. You just don't get the sense that he has a focused vision.
You mean like making Scouts Elite (Kelly), Elites Troops (Wolf Guard, Kelly), OTTSC like Canis and Creed(Kelly), etc.
With GK he has made rules that jeopardize the fun of the game (warp quake, cleansing flamer) in the name of the rule of cool (or his idea of it).
JOTWW (Kelly), Vendettas (Cruddace), etc.
Attributing your dislike of what is in the codeci to Ward is just fooling yourself. GW has always added new things, subtracted others and moved things around. It is what they do.
And the Grey Knights are infinitely better at fighting Daemons than the Custodes are.
No. They aren't. Custodes are better in every respect, and are even harder to corrupt than GK are. When a GK (Alaric) recieved the collar of khorne, he lost his psychic shield, and became as resistant to corruption as any other space marine. The Custodes are always incorruptible, having spent 13,000 years by the Emperor's side. They also fight daemons literally every day, as the Portal Magnus destroy is an enormous warp-rift that is contained by 300 Custodians. Custodes are bigger, better equipped, fast, stronger, better trained, and more experienced.
TutorialBoss wrote:He clearly doesn't have the same sense for internal balance as the other two main writers of the moment (Kelly and Cruddace). And his books seem to lack a kind of creativity lends personality to lists. For him, creativity means an over-the-top special character and random reorganisations of the FoC. First Land Radiers are Heavy, then Dedicated, then Heavy. Stormravens are Heavy then Fast, etc. You just don't get the sense that he has a focused vision.
You mean like making Scouts Elite (Kelly), Elites Troops (Wolf Guard, Kelly), OTTSC like Canis and Creed(Kelly), etc.
With GK he has made rules that jeopardize the fun of the game (warp quake, cleansing flamer) in the name of the rule of cool (or his idea of it).
JOTWW (Kelly), Vendettas (Cruddace), etc.
Attributing your dislike of what is in the codeci to Ward is just fooling yourself. GW has always added new things, subtracted others and moved things around. It is what they do.
TO be fair he broke WHFB horribly when he touched the rules for daemons. He also made flying librarian Dreads and BA+NECRON love affair.
im2randomghgh wrote:TO be fair he broke WHFB horribly when he touched the rules for daemons. He also made flying librarian Dreads and BA+NECRON love affair.
im2randomghgh wrote:TO be fair he broke WHFB horribly when he touched the rules for daemons. He also made flying librarian Dreads and BA+NECRON love affair.
Great, you're quoting 4chan. That lends great weight to your opinion. BA+Necron love affair is overblown. What's wrong with flying librarian dreads?
What's wrong with flying librarian dreads? Are you kidding? That's like saying what's wrong with making a reaver titan 35 points! It is completely brokenness and utter crap! When you see that blood angels player on the other side of the Table pull out his flying librarian dreadnought just concede defeat and put your models away.
im2randomghgh wrote:What's wrong with flying librarian dreads? Are you kidding? That's like saying what's wrong with making a reaver titan 35 points! It is completely brokenness and utter crap! When you see that blood angels player on the other side of the Table pull out his flying librarian dreadnought just concede defeat and put your models away.
Yeah, hyperbole much?
How is a dread that moves 12" and takes dangerous terrain tests if it passes a psychic test 'completely brokenness and utter crap'? Did you get beaten by a player with one and now you hate them?
Of all the things in the game, that's the one you're going to single out for OMFG BORKEN!!!ONE
im2randomghgh wrote:What's wrong with flying librarian dreads? Are you kidding? That's like saying what's wrong with making a reaver titan 35 points! It is completely brokenness and utter crap! When you see that blood angels player on the other side of the Table pull out his flying librarian dreadnought just concede defeat and put your models away.
Yeah, hyperbole much?
How is a dread that moves 12" and takes dangerous terrain tests if it passes a psychic test 'completely brokenness and utter crap'? Did you get beaten by a player with one and now you hate them?
Of all the things in the game, that's the one you're going to single out for OMFG BORKEN!!!ONE
/slowclap
Dreads are already hugely powerful. Make it fly and it becomes about 2x deadlier. Then give it psychic powers and you've broken a codex.
They need to fix it. This is worse than that whole "Fish o' Fury" thing.
I think everyone should just settle down. It's a game. This topic is brought up so ofter and it is getting quite annoying. Don't mean to troll, and I know I should just keep my mouth shut instead of griping, but honestly people- IT'S A GAME! Once you get a job at GW, you can write all the fluff you want. You realize that supervisors at GW have to approve the rules and fluff he writes correct? It's not all on him, though a lot of it is.
im2randomghgh wrote:
Dreads are already hugely powerful. Make it fly and it becomes about 2x deadlier. Then give it psychic powers and you've broken a codex.
They need to fix it. This is worse than that whole "Fish o' Fury" thing.
hahahahahaha
Okay, sorry I didn't notice you were pulling my leg until you brought up Fish o' Fury as being broken. I should have known you were joking when you brought up libdreads instead of Meph or Blood Talons, but didn't. Props.
And the Grey Knights are infinitely better at fighting Daemons than the Custodes are.
No. They aren't. Custodes are better in every respect, and are even harder to corrupt than GK are. When a GK (Alaric) recieved the collar of khorne, he lost his psychic shield, and became as resistant to corruption as any other space marine. The Custodes are always incorruptible, having spent 13,000 years by the Emperor's side. They also fight daemons literally every day, as the Portal Magnus destroy is an enormous warp-rift that is contained by 300 Custodians. Custodes are bigger, better equipped, fast, stronger, better trained, and more experienced.
GK can [Mod Edit - Whoa! Language, please.]
That's the most ridiculous thing I've heard today. The Custodes are not better at fighting Daemons than the Grey Knights.
How can you use that as an example? Was he corrupted? NO. The only protection Custodes have is their conviction, no psychic shields, metal conditioning, or souls that are literally painful to Daemons.
Where's the other 3000 years from?
And no they don't fight Daemons every day. The Emperor is on the Golden Throne to keep that portal closed, he does this using his psychic might, protecting the human section. The Companions are the only ones that can stand in the Emperors presence they do not fight Daemons all the time.
Bigger isn't an advantage. Terminator plus Aegis is better than Custode Armour, Nemesis weapons are better than their Halberds. Psycannons? Only marginally faster and stronger, Not against Daemons and today's enemies the Imperium faces, Grey Knights have been trained to fight them all. They've spent the last 10,000 years standing around, with the occasional foray out into the Noble Houses or Blood Games, so no they aren't more experienced, especially against Daemons. Plus, they aren't psykers and they don't work together, thus the only advantage they have is that they're slightly faster and stronger, not really that much of one against Daemons.
iproxtaco wrote:Feth me, why is it difficult for people to understand? It is not out of character. It is very IN CHARACTER. Plus, there is no bathing. Read the passage, if you actually have the book.
I've read it, but I don't have it in front of me at work.
The Bloodtide would have killed the Grey Knights. They are immune from the spiritual side, not from the physical. Thus, to defeat it, they needed an extra layer of physical protection.
Which could have been provided by willing and very capable allies apparently highly resistant to the blood tide.
To defeat the Warp, the most effective tool is sorcery. The Sisters were there, so they used their pure and innocent blood to enact a ritual
which is really not something one would typically picture the GK's doing. It just doesn't fit. Blood rituals and the blood of innocents really sounds like a Chaos thing, not something which the Grey Knights would engage in, lest it be twisted to the use of Chaos. It really just doesn't fit the character of the army. Blood rituals are a Chaos thing, not that of the anti-Chaos.
which they ANOINTED their armour with, NOT BATHED IN.
They're smearing blood all over themselves. Either way, not that different.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Harkens back to the point I made earlier. People and fine with the Grey Knights using any means necessary to defeat their enemies, until for some reason they actually use any means necessary, in which it then for some reason becomes not fine.
Lets be honest, the factions in this game run on themes and stereotypes. Ritually butchering innocents and using their blood to gain power is a Chaos thing, not a Grey Knight thing.
Mat Ward explained exactly the point he wanted to make with that story in WD, which was to show that the GK's will go to any lengths to accomplish their mission. While yes, this does that, it breaks the theme and stereotype of the faction in doing so. It's not something most Grey Knights players would imagine or like their army doing, which is a big no-no, hence the stink about it. Had they defeated the blood tide with the help of the sisters than turned upon them to keep hidden all knowledge of the event, that would have accomplished the same thing in a far more thematic way.
Actually, no, bathing and anointing are very, very different. Bathing is not used.
It's still entirely within the theme and stereotype of the Grey Knights, if that proposed theme and stereotype is if they use whatever methods and do whatever is necessary to achieve their goals.
Vaktathi wrote:I've read it, but I don't have it in front of me at work.
Read it again. 'The innocent blood thus spilled is mixed with blessed oils and used to anoint the GK's armour and weapons So shielded the GK are able to stride through the goreflood without risk of corruption.'
Which could have been provided by willing and very capable allies apparently highly resistant to the blood tide.
Inconclusive from the text.
which is really not something one would typically picture the GK's doing. It just doesn't fit. Blood rituals and the blood of innocents really sounds like a Chaos thing, not something which the Grey Knights would engage in, lest it be twisted to the use of Chaos. It really just doesn't fit the character of the army. Blood rituals are a Chaos thing, not that of the anti-Chaos.
GK have used sorcery for a loooong time. Index Astartes: "...furnished them with blasphemous knowledge painstakingly pieced together by the Inq of the OM. This damned collection of knowledge is gathered together on Titan in the Librarium Daemonica.""Each warrior of the GK carries a copy of the sacred Liber Daemonica... The book contains the essential tenets of lore culled from the Librarium Daemonica by psychically monitored servitors." In fact that lore is so dangerous that it also says "These servitors are permanently wired to toxin dispensers that can be activated immediately..."
They're smearing blood all over themselves. Either way, not that different.
From webster, 'to apply oil to as a sacred rite especially for consecration'. Yeah...
Lets be honest, the factions in this game run on themes and stereotypes. Ritually butchering innocents and using their blood to gain power is a Chaos thing, not a Grey Knight thing.
According to you. The whole schtick of the inquisition has always been that sometimes you use the weapons of the enemy to combat that enemy.
It's not something most Grey Knights players would imagine or like their army doing, which is a big no-no, hence the stink about it.
Those GK players evidently are not very aware of the history and fluff for their army.
Had they defeated the blood tide with the help of the sisters than turned upon them to keep hidden all knowledge of the event, that would have accomplished the same thing in a far more thematic way.
But they would have been consumed by the Bloodtide in the process.
iproxtaco wrote:Actually, no, bathing and anointing are very, very different. Bathing is not used.
End result either way, they're smearing blood all over themselves. The difference is pedantic.
It's still entirely within the theme and stereotype of the Grey Knights, if that proposed theme and stereotype is if they use whatever methods and do whatever is necessary to achieve their goals.
Again not really. The slaughter of innocents for Blood Rituals is not really what most would consider something they see the Grey Knights doing. World Eaters? Emperor's Children? Sure. But Grey Knights? No. And that's why most people don't like that story. It doesn't fit the theme, it's not what people would imagine them doing. Hence the outrage about it.
pretre wrote:Read it again.
Once more...it's not directly in front of me at work...
'The innocent blood thus spilled is mixed with blessed oils and used to anoint the GK's armour and weapons So shielded the GK are able to stride through the goreflood without risk of corruption.'
Except aren't they already immune to the corruption?
Inconclusive from the text.
It could have easily been written that way, and having a force of resistant Sisters to battle alongside, providing a shield and additional firepower would have likely made more sense. Mat Ward just chose to make it intentionally derpy.
GK have used sorcery for a loooong time. Index Astartes: "...furnished them with blasphemous knowledge painstakingly pieced together by the Inq of the OM. This damned collection of knowledge is gathered together on Titan in the Librarium Daemonica.""Each warrior of the GK carries a copy of the sacred Liber Daemonica... The book contains the essential tenets of lore culled from the Librarium Daemonica by psychically monitored servitors." In fact that lore is so dangerous that it also says "These servitors are permanently wired to toxin dispensers that can be activated immediately..."
yes, they have the knowledge so they can fight it, that doesn't mean they enact what's in it.
From webster, 'to apply oil to as a sacred rite especially for consecration'. Yeah...
See above
According to you.
I'm not exactly alone in that opinion, there's a widespread dislike of that story for a reason.
The whole schtick of the inquisition has always been that sometimes you use the weapons of the enemy to combat that enemy.
Yes, in some ways, but it's usually daemonhosts and daemon weapons, I've never heard of the INQ doing something like this, and at the same time the GK's are not the inquisition.
Those GK players evidently are not very aware of the history and fluff for their army.
I'd wager this isn't the case.
But they would have been consumed by the Bloodtide in the process.
Only because Mat Ward wrote it so that they had to butcher the sisters instead of use their faith and innocence to fight it.
Did I say the use of psychic powers was new? No, only that butchering innocents for blood rituals in the manner of the World Eaters or Word Bearers is not in the theme of the GK's.
Vaktathi wrote:Did I say the use of psychic powers was new? No, only that butchering innocents for blood rituals in the manner of the World Eaters or Word Bearers is not in the theme of the GK's.
You are adding something to the text that is not there. There is no 'butchering innocents for blood rituals in the manner of the WE or WB'.
Again, READ THE PASSAGE.
"Needing a talisman of purity to protect against the Bloodtide's taint, the GK's first act is to turn their blades upon the surviving Sisters of Battle. The innocent blood thus spilled is then mixed with blessed oils and used to anoint the GK's armour and weapons."
Where does it say they butchered them? It is even an assumption that the sisters were killed. Stop applying your own filter to it and read it for what it is.
They turned their blades on the SOB and then mixed some of the blood with blessed oils and anointed their stuff. That's it. No dance party for Khorne.
You're twisting it to form an argument. I said sorcery, not psychic powers. There's a difference. Any source which says that they didn't use sorcery? Because there's a fair few which say the did. Read pretre's posts, there's a few. I have the their sources as well.
pretre wrote:
Where does it say they butchered them? It is even an assumption that the sisters were killed. Stop applying your own filter to it and read it for what it is.
And what I was saying all this time? maybe they didn't kill them, maybe they just get a little blood from them to make this talisman and use it to defend them.
There is no mention whatsoever about them dying.
pretre wrote:
Where does it say they butchered them? It is even an assumption that the sisters were killed. Stop applying your own filter to it and read it for what it is.
And what I was saying all this time? maybe they didn't kill them, maybe they just get a little blood from them to make this talisman and use it to defend them.
There is no mention whatsoever about them dying.
They killed them. That's exactly what he's talking about, you're applying your own filter to it. THEY KILLED THE SISTERS. That is not up for debate.
But he has a point, it don't say that they killed them. It is only state that they turned "their blades toward them", that may also meant hat they simply wound them to get some blood...
Wrong, it states exactly that they "turn their blades upon the surviving Sisters of Battle." That means the Grey Knights killed the Sisters of Battle. Killed. IT IS NOT UP FOR DISCUSSION.
iproxtaco wrote:Wrong, it states exactly that they "turn their blades upon the surviving Sisters of Battle." That means the Grey Knights killed the Sisters of Battle. Killed. IT IS NOT UP FOR DISCUSSION.
In explanation of this, to, "turn one's blade/weapon on someone," means to kill them. It's a subtle euphemism in English that's different from, "turn one's blade/weapon toward someone," which means to point the weapon at them and nothing further.
iproxtaco wrote:Wrong, it states exactly that they "turn their blades upon the surviving Sisters of Battle." That means the Grey Knights killed the Sisters of Battle. Killed. IT IS NOT UP FOR DISCUSSION.
In explanation of this, to, "turn one's blade/weapon on someone," means to kill them. It's a subtle euphemism in English that's different from, "turn one's blade/weapon toward someone," which means to point the weapon at them and nothing further.
Here it is the same thing... to point any weapon, blade, knife... means that you are threating him. We have no difference when it comes to this quote.
iproxtaco wrote:Wrong, it states exactly that they "turn their blades upon the surviving Sisters of Battle." That means the Grey Knights killed the Sisters of Battle. Killed. IT IS NOT UP FOR DISCUSSION.
In explanation of this, to, "turn one's blade/weapon on someone," means to kill them. It's a subtle euphemism in English that's different from, "turn one's blade/weapon toward someone," which means to point the weapon at them and nothing further.
Exactly, they point their weapon toward SoB. They knew what must be done and let them wound them just to have a little blood for the talisman.
Upon in this case means 'on,' not 'toward.' Can it even mean 'toward?'
It's not 'towards' though, it's UPON! They 'turned their blades UPON the surviving Sisters of Battle'. This means they killed them. Killed, there is no other explanation.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Brother Coa wrote:
Pouncey wrote:
iproxtaco wrote:Wrong, it states exactly that they "turn their blades upon the surviving Sisters of Battle." That means the Grey Knights killed the Sisters of Battle. Killed. IT IS NOT UP FOR DISCUSSION.
In explanation of this, to, "turn one's blade/weapon on someone," means to kill them. It's a subtle euphemism in English that's different from, "turn one's blade/weapon toward someone," which means to point the weapon at them and nothing further.
Here it is the same thing... to point any weapon, blade, knife... means that you are threating him. We have no difference when it comes to this quote.
Yes there is still a very big difference. 'Upon' means they killed them. It does not say 'toward' like you for some very strange reason think it does or means.
iproxtaco wrote:Actually, no, bathing and anointing are very, very different. Bathing is not used.
End result either way, they're smearing blood all over themselves. The difference is pedantic.
It's still entirely within the theme and stereotype of the Grey Knights, if that proposed theme and stereotype is if they use whatever methods and do whatever is necessary to achieve their goals.
Again not really. The slaughter of innocents for Blood Rituals is not really what most would consider something they see the Grey Knights doing. World Eaters? Emperor's Children? Sure. But Grey Knights? No. And that's why most people don't like that story. It doesn't fit the theme, it's not what people would imagine them doing. Hence the outrage about it.
pretre wrote:Read it again.
Once more...it's not directly in front of me at work...
'The innocent blood thus spilled is mixed with blessed oils and used to anoint the GK's armour and weapons So shielded the GK are able to stride through the goreflood without risk of corruption.'
Except aren't they already immune to the corruption?
Inconclusive from the text.
It could have easily been written that way, and having a force of resistant Sisters to battle alongside, providing a shield and additional firepower would have likely made more sense. Mat Ward just chose to make it intentionally derpy.
GK have used sorcery for a loooong time. Index Astartes: "...furnished them with blasphemous knowledge painstakingly pieced together by the Inq of the OM. This damned collection of knowledge is gathered together on Titan in the Librarium Daemonica.""Each warrior of the GK carries a copy of the sacred Liber Daemonica... The book contains the essential tenets of lore culled from the Librarium Daemonica by psychically monitored servitors." In fact that lore is so dangerous that it also says "These servitors are permanently wired to toxin dispensers that can be activated immediately..."
yes, they have the knowledge so they can fight it, that doesn't mean they enact what's in it.
From webster, 'to apply oil to as a sacred rite especially for consecration'. Yeah...
See above
According to you.
I'm not exactly alone in that opinion, there's a widespread dislike of that story for a reason.
The whole schtick of the inquisition has always been that sometimes you use the weapons of the enemy to combat that enemy.
Yes, in some ways, but it's usually daemonhosts and daemon weapons, I've never heard of the INQ doing something like this, and at the same time the GK's are not the inquisition.
Those GK players evidently are not very aware of the history and fluff for their army.
I'd wager this isn't the case.
But they would have been consumed by the Bloodtide in the process.
Only because Mat Ward wrote it so that they had to butcher the sisters instead of use their faith and innocence to fight it.
I usually agrue with you... But considering I agree with you on every point you have made. I honor you.
The entire Grey Knight Codex is Terribad.
After reading the fluff, I felt like scratching my eyes out. My brother literally told me this book is crap and threw it onto the ground and said I am not going to play grey knights anymore. And he has been playing them since the eye of terror campaign. He did not like that book, the entire thoughts of the Grey Knights going to any lengths to stop a daemon horde is good,but smearing blood on-themselves is satanic its not something a holy soldier would do.
Grey Knights would not need blood to purify themseleves they are already in armor that purifies them.
It is utterly useless to put blood on you.
I would understand if they slaughtered the sisters after they both defeated the Blood Tide, (Which by itself was defeated by lots of forces.) that would of been perfectly acceptable.
Also the Dreadknight looks like something stolen from the movie alien.
And Inqusitiors with Plasma Syphon??!?!?! Which Literally make all of their units around them invulnerable to plasma weapons????? What??!?????? BS1????
And Jakero with 49 lascannon shots is kinda of uhhhh broken....
I have heard the lists the grey knights produce are abostuley horrendously hard to beat.
After reading more in depth lots and lots of people hate the grey knight book.
The Space Marine Codex is the only reasonable book he has produced....
I believe he is CS. Goto. Though this is a theory, not actually based on anything apart from he is that bad, that it Makes Me feel like Goto would try to reclaim 40k and want to kill Ward with a hobby knife.
If you have ever heard of Zeist it is stolen from Highlander......
I don't really understand why would Necrons and Blood Angels team up again????? I Would think the Former Legion would slaughter the necrons afterwards by blowing a hole in their robotic skulls.
After playing a few games against the grey knights I do have to say the Grey Knights lists are hard to beat even against my plasma list, which literally was useless against the inqusitior. AS the only effective way was to kill termiantors is with plasma weaponry. I relied on military tactics (Favorablely the Pincer Maneuver which was fun.) and crushed the opponent, which everyone should do,
Asherian Command wrote:
He did not like that book, the entire thoughts of the Grey Knights going to any lengths to stop a daemon horde is good,but smearing blood on-themselves is satanic its not something a holy soldier would do.
Grey Knights would not need blood to purify themseleves they are already in armor that purifies them.
It is utterly useless to put blood on you.
Also the Dreadknight looks like something stolen from the movie alien.
After playing a few games against the grey knights I do have to say the Grey Knights lists are hard to beat even against my plasma list, which literally was useless against the inqusitior. AS the only effective way was to kill termiantors is with plasma weaponry. I relied on military tactics (Favorablely the Pincer Maneuver which was fun.) and crushed the opponent, which everyone should do,
Technically, it's not satanic.
They obviously needed the blood, otherwise they wouldn't have used it. Regardless of who writes their fluff, Grey Knights are not idiots.
Designs are changed and reused all the time. The Dreadknight is not the first, nor so similar that it qualifies as 'stolen.'
Why are you complaining about the strength of a Grey Knight list that you played directly into the hands of?
Asherian Command wrote:
After reading the fluff, I felt like scratching my eyes out. My brother literally told me this book is crap and threw it onto the ground and said I am not going to play grey knights anymore. And he has been playing them since the eye of terror campaign. He did not like that book, the entire thoughts of the Grey Knights going to any lengths to stop a daemon horde is good,but smearing blood on-themselves is satanic its not something a holy soldier would do.
Read everything pretre and myself have posted and be enlightened. I HIGHLY doubt any of the above is true.
Grey Knights would not need blood to purify themseleves they are already in armor that purifies them.
It's against the physical effects of the Bloodtide, not the spiritual.
It is utterly useless to put blood on you.
See above.
Also the Dreadknight looks like something stolen from the movie alien.
That was not only Mat Ward, it was the entire Design team.
And Inqusitiors with Plasma Syphon??!?!?! Which Literally make all of their units around them invulnerable to plasma weapons????? What??!?????? BS1????
First I've seen it complained about. Not really that bad.
And Jakero with 49 lascannon shots is kinda of uhhhh broken....
Nope, not really.
I have heard the lists the grey knights produce are abostuley horrendously hard to beat.
Riiiiiight. I haven't. Never heard of any that are.
After reading more in depth lots and lots of people hate the grey knight book.
No, a small minority of people actually hate the Grey Knight Codex. The rest are bandwagoners or have baseless arguments to are excluded as morons.
The Space Marine Codex is the only reasonable book he has produced....
Aside from the Blood Angels Codex and Grey Knight Codex.
I believe he is CS. Goto. Though this is a theory, not actually based on anything apart from he is that bad, that it Makes Me feel like Goto would try to reclaim 40k and want to kill Ward with a hobby knife.
C.S Goto breaks the fluff in everything he writes, Mat Ward does not.
If you have ever heard of Zeist it is stolen from Highlander......
And?
I don't really understand why would Necrons and Blood Angels team up again????? I Would think the Former Legion would slaughter the necrons afterwards by blowing a hole in their robotic skulls.
They don't, they pause in fighting each other to fight the Tyranids, no alliance is made. They then go their separate ways, fighting each other would have destroyed them both.
After playing a few games against the grey knights I do have to say the Grey Knights lists are hard to beat even against my plasma list, which literally was useless against the inqusitior. AS the only effective way was to kill termiantors is with plasma weaponry. I relied on military tactics (Favorablely the Pincer Maneuver which was fun.) and crushed the opponent, which everyone should do,
So your plasma list was negated simply because you were fighting an ANTI-PLASMA list? Astounding.
Asherian Command wrote: After reading the fluff, I felt like scratching my eyes out. My brother literally told me this book is crap and threw it onto the ground and said I am not going to play grey knights anymore. And he has been playing them since the eye of terror campaign. He did not like that book, the entire thoughts of the Grey Knights going to any lengths to stop a daemon horde is good,but smearing blood on-themselves is satanic its not something a holy soldier would do.
Read everything pretre and myself have posted and be enlightened. I HIGHLY doubt any of the above is true. Sadly that is the truth. I am the old grey knight player, and you agrued against the custodes, So I feel no symphony for you.
Grey Knights would not need blood to purify themseleves they are already in armor that purifies them.
It's against the physical effects of the Bloodtide, not the spiritual. SO the already pure grey knights need more purity? ITs a double postive which in the context of reading is utterly useless like purifiers....
It is utterly useless to put blood on you.
See above. How about you listen to opinons more often eh? Everyone is entitled to one.
Also the Dreadknight looks like something stolen from the movie alien.
That was not only Mat Ward, it was the entire Design team. Maybe so but he is also the project leader so in terms of who is to blame, you blame the head guy for the stupidity of his team.
And Inqusitiors with Plasma Syphon??!?!?! Which Literally make all of their units around them invulnerable to plasma weapons????? What??!?????? BS1????
First I've seen it complained about. Not really that bad. True But it is very annoying and considering horde lists are the only true way to beat grey knights now, unforunately my custodes list and my Small squad lists cannot do that.
And Jakero with 49 lascannon shots is kinda of uhhhh broken....
Nope, not really. Yes it is. Do you play guard? If so you will see your entire army dead in the next turn.
I have heard the lists the grey knights produce are abostuley horrendously hard to beat.
Riiiiiight. I haven't. Never heard of any that are. Uhhhhh YEAh About that, you really don't understand the fact that the Imperial players hate the fact that the grey knights have almost everyweapon to bench rape any player. After playing a few games I saw that they were kinda of rigged, Feel no pain with 2 wound models, force weapons, +2 armor and +4 invulnerable save... YEs this sounds like an aboustely brilliant idea. Making most fan made rules look like cannon fodder.
After reading more in depth lots and lots of people hate the grey knight book.
No, a small minority of people actually hate the Grey Knight Codex. The rest are bandwagoners or have baseless arguments to are excluded as morons. NO not really clearly you have not talked to people outside of your district, everyone at my store, which is a gw store, Hate the new codex.
The Space Marine Codex is the only reasonable book he has produced....
Aside from the Blood Angels Codex and Grey Knight Codex. Not really, The Original Grey Knight Codex, It is alot better than the current version. Let me rephrase that, Compared to the current version, the Older grey knight codex is 300000x better than the current as the fluff does not contradict other sources... Also they are down to 1,000 marines which for the grey knights sucks. IT was better when they were spread thinly.
I believe he is CS. Goto. Though this is a theory, not actually based on anything apart from he is that bad, that it Makes Me feel like Goto would try to reclaim 40k and want to kill Ward with a hobby knife.
C.S Goto breaks the fluff in everything he writes, Mat Ward does not. Are you joking? Or are you high?
If you have ever heard of Zeist it is stolen from Highlander......
And? Its funny that he can't think of a good name by himself.
I don't really understand why would Necrons and Blood Angels team up again????? I Would think the Former Legion would slaughter the necrons afterwards by blowing a hole in their robotic skulls.
They don't, they pause in fighting each other to fight the Tyranids, no alliance is made. They then go their separate ways, fighting each other would have destroyed them both. Uhhh, You know the Space Marines literally say, Death to Xenos right? So that also means even if they all die and take out the necrons it was worth it in the end. Such does say the Codex Astrates.
After playing a few games against the grey knights I do have to say the Grey Knights lists are hard to beat even against my plasma list, which literally was useless against the inqusitior. AS the only effective way was to kill termiantors is with plasma weaponry. I relied on military tactics (Favorablely the Pincer Maneuver which was fun.) and crushed the opponent, which everyone should do,
So your plasma list was negated simply because you were fighting an ANTI-PLASMA list? Astounding.
Baseless argument is baseless.
Baseless Argument eh? Well I got something for ya. After playing for 10 years, I have learned that the Grey knights were awesome. Now lets picture this, The Grey Knights were 3,000 strong and could take on a horde of daemons without the aid of giant robot gundams, now they need Gundams, As they believe that putting more useless armor upon them selves and using daemonic weapons which are utterly against their basis of being pure soldiers that kill other chapters for containing just a single daemonic object like a pin pong ball they will go out to destroy the chapter and take the object and use it for their own means. Yeah. If that isn't chaos, I don't know what is.
The Grey knights under Mat Ward's Fluff make them into Chaos Space Marine Champions. Sorry but the evidence points to them being well evil, the grey knights are corrupted so much so, I believe it would make C.S. Goto forfiet his salary, It also makes some chaos space marines look absolutely better in comparison.
Also I believe your opinion is negated as you are kinda of talking to a custodes player that has seen the grey knights slaughter a Custodian Guard Squad, Then get aboustely owned by my walking tanks that I like to call overlords.
Also read some of the old fluff, you will learn that the Grey Knights utterly refused to use daemon weapons and Daemon Hosts in anyway, as they saw them as evil and would rather stab them to death. The Grey Knights will not use chaos to counter chaos, doesn't that make them chaos then?!?!??
By the way the Sisters of battle are part of the inqusition and they do have knowledge of daemons.... Hence... The Ordo Heretics.... Which investigates hersey and corruption and daemons within the imperium. Just imagine what would happen if the ordo herectics learned that an entire order was slaughtered? By daemon weapons.... used by the grey knights.... who are using sorcery. Yeah I am sensing another Thousand Sons Reference right there. Damn Magnus would be pissed.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Nerivant wrote:
Asherian Command wrote:
He did not like that book, the entire thoughts of the Grey Knights going to any lengths to stop a daemon horde is good,but smearing blood on-themselves is satanic its not something a holy soldier would do.
Grey Knights would not need blood to purify themseleves they are already in armor that purifies them.
It is utterly useless to put blood on you.
Also the Dreadknight looks like something stolen from the movie alien.
After playing a few games against the grey knights I do have to say the Grey Knights lists are hard to beat even against my plasma list, which literally was useless against the inqusitior. AS the only effective way was to kill termiantors is with plasma weaponry. I relied on military tactics (Favorablely the Pincer Maneuver which was fun.) and crushed the opponent, which everyone should do,
Technically, it's not satanic.
They obviously needed the blood, otherwise they wouldn't have used it. Regardless of who writes their fluff, Grey Knights are not idiots.
Designs are changed and reused all the time. The Dreadknight is not the first, nor so similar that it qualifies as 'stolen.'
Why are you complaining about the strength of a Grey Knight list that you played directly into the hands of?
To me and a few others that is.
Its not really stolen its just annoyingly bad model that I could see better from gw.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
iproxtaco wrote:Probably good for you to read the Codex before forming a baseless opinion like that, Asherian Command
I have read the codex. And maybe you should learn to read other fluff first.
There are 2 divisions when it comes to immunity through purity.
1)A pure mind will keep your body pure. This is the kind of thinking the old GK were based on.
2)A pure mind does not necessarily mean a pure body.
Jokaero aren't that over-powered so just calm down about them. They are weak and have a BS of 3 IIRC(May be wrong)
Sisters aren't a part of the Inquisition they are just used by the Hereticus a lot, they are a part of the Ecclesiarchy.
Matt Ward wrote a passable Vanilla codex with not that many faults...
Not all SM are dogmatic, some are pragmatic.
Did it ever occur to you that he chose that name on purpose? Not everything has to be original. There is a meaning in names...
You know Zelda from the Zelda games? Her name originally came from the wife of Scott Fitzgerald.
My DIY chapter commander is called Iago Wynter. Iago is a character from Othello who decieved Othello and tricked him into killing his wife, Othello later killed himself out of guilt. Wynter is merely a place holder.
purplefood wrote:I doubt you feel symphony for anyone Ash...
There are 2 divisions when it comes to immunity through purity.
1)A pure mind will keep your body pure. This is the kind of thinking the old GK were based on.
2)A pure mind does not necessarily mean a pure body.
Jokaero aren't that over-powered so just calm down about them. They are weak and have a BS of 3 IIRC(May be wrong)
Sisters aren't a part of the Inquisition they are just used by the Hereticus a lot, they are a part of the Ecclesiarchy.
Matt Ward wrote a passable Vanilla codex with not that many faults...
Not all SM are dogmatic, some are pragmatic.
Did it ever occur to you that he chose that name on purpose? Not everything has to be original. There is a meaning in names...
You know Zelda from the Zelda games? Her name originally came from the wife of Scott Fitzgerald.
My DIY chapter commander is called Iago Wynter. Iago is a character from Othello who decieved Othello and tricked him into killing his wife, Othello later killed himself out of guilt. Wynter is merely a place holder.
I don't feel symphony for anyone on the internet XD
But yes I can see that. Your opinion was presented better than the pervious user.
Jokaero Are just uhhh...... useless. they should only actually be used by the Ordo Xenos.... Not the Ordo Malleus.....
Also I am still pissed at The team Designers getting rid of Storm Troopers.
purplefood wrote:I doubt you feel symphony for anyone Ash...
There are 2 divisions when it comes to immunity through purity.
1)A pure mind will keep your body pure. This is the kind of thinking the old GK were based on.
2)A pure mind does not necessarily mean a pure body.
Jokaero aren't that over-powered so just calm down about them. They are weak and have a BS of 3 IIRC(May be wrong)
Sisters aren't a part of the Inquisition they are just used by the Hereticus a lot, they are a part of the Ecclesiarchy.
Matt Ward wrote a passable Vanilla codex with not that many faults...
Not all SM are dogmatic, some are pragmatic.
Did it ever occur to you that he chose that name on purpose? Not everything has to be original. There is a meaning in names...
You know Zelda from the Zelda games? Her name originally came from the wife of Scott Fitzgerald.
My DIY chapter commander is called Iago Wynter. Iago is a character from Othello who decieved Othello and tricked him into killing his wife, Othello later killed himself out of guilt. Wynter is merely a place holder.
I don't feel symphony for anyone on the internet XD
But yes I can see that. Your opinion was presented better than the pervious user.
Jokaero Are just uhhh...... useless. they should only actually be used by the Ordo Xenos.... Not the Ordo Malleus.....
Also I am still pissed at The team Designers getting rid of Storm Troopers.
Well i wanted an all Inquisition codex but MEQ took the stage and made it all about them...
I do agree that Jokaero should have been limited in some way, a limit on numbers or how they can be taken.
purplefood wrote:I doubt you feel symphony for anyone Ash...
There are 2 divisions when it comes to immunity through purity.
1)A pure mind will keep your body pure. This is the kind of thinking the old GK were based on.
2)A pure mind does not necessarily mean a pure body.
Jokaero aren't that over-powered so just calm down about them. They are weak and have a BS of 3 IIRC(May be wrong)
Sisters aren't a part of the Inquisition they are just used by the Hereticus a lot, they are a part of the Ecclesiarchy.
Matt Ward wrote a passable Vanilla codex with not that many faults...
Not all SM are dogmatic, some are pragmatic.
Did it ever occur to you that he chose that name on purpose? Not everything has to be original. There is a meaning in names...
You know Zelda from the Zelda games? Her name originally came from the wife of Scott Fitzgerald.
My DIY chapter commander is called Iago Wynter. Iago is a character from Othello who decieved Othello and tricked him into killing his wife, Othello later killed himself out of guilt. Wynter is merely a place holder.
I don't feel symphony for anyone on the internet XD
But yes I can see that. Your opinion was presented better than the pervious user.
Jokaero Are just uhhh...... useless. they should only actually be used by the Ordo Xenos.... Not the Ordo Malleus.....
Also I am still pissed at The team Designers getting rid of Storm Troopers.
Well i wanted an all Inquisition codex but MEQ took the stage and made it all about them...
I do agree that Jokaero should have been limited in some way, a limit on numbers or how they can be taken.
If you take Cortez you can literally get squads of them thats what ticks me off. Though it would be funny to see that not Going to lie.
If they limited that I would of been a little fine with new inqustiorial Troops not just grey knights. I was looking forward to making a huge Inqustiorial Army. Now I can't Sad face : ( Though the fluff about the sisters made me face palm not as bad as the Dragio. Of course this is coming from me where, I have one of my characters punching through the head of a chaos space marine using their clawed armored hands... Oh wait that is possible never mind.
Though I do have some ridicilous lore. There are some lore out there that aren't ridiculous.
Asherian Command wrote:
After reading the fluff, I felt like scratching my eyes out. My brother literally told me this book is crap and threw it onto the ground and said I am not going to play grey knights anymore. And he has been playing them since the eye of terror campaign. He did not like that book, the entire thoughts of the Grey Knights going to any lengths to stop a daemon horde is good,but smearing blood on-themselves is satanic its not something a holy soldier would do.
Read everything pretre and myself have posted and be enlightened. I HIGHLY doubt any of the above is true.
Sadly that is the truth. I am the old grey knight player, and you agrued against the custodes, So I feel no symphony for you.
Was it this thread or the other? At least I had reasons for my argument in both.
Grey Knights would not need blood to purify themseleves they are already in armor that purifies them.
It's against the physical effects of the Bloodtide, not the spiritual.
SO the already pure grey knights need more purity? ITs a double postive which in the context of reading is utterly useless like purifiers...
Did you read my reply? They are immune to the spiritual side of it, not the physical, hence they used an extra layer to protect themselves so they could defeat the Bloodtide.
It is utterly useless to put blood on you.
See above.
How about you listen to opinons more often eh? Everyone is entitled to one.
And yet here we are.
Also the Dreadknight looks like something stolen from the movie alien.
That was not only Mat Ward, it was the entire Design team.
Maybe so but he is also the project leader so in terms of who is to blame, you blame the head guy for the stupidity of his team.
But he wasn't was he? He is not a sculptor, so there is someone or some persons to blame for the actual model.
And Inqusitiors with Plasma Syphon??!?!?! Which Literally make all of their units around them invulnerable to plasma weapons????? What??!?????? BS1????
First I've seen it complained about. Not really that bad.
True But it is very annoying and considering horde lists are the only true way to beat grey knights now, unforunately my custodes list and my Small squad lists cannot do that.
There's a thread in the tactics section that would very much like you to see it.
And Jakero with 49 lascannon shots is kinda of uhhhh broken....
Nope, not really.
Yes it is. Do you play guard? If so you will see your entire army dead in the next turn.
No I don't, nor have I seen any Guard player complain about it.
I have heard the lists the grey knights produce are abostuley horrendously hard to beat.
Riiiiiight. I haven't. Never heard of any that are.
Uhhhhh YEAh About that, you really don't understand the fact that the Imperial players hate the fact that the grey knights have almost everyweapon to bench rape any player. After playing a few games I saw that they were kinda of rigged, Feel no pain with 2 wound models, force weapons, +2 armor and +4 invulnerable save... YEs this sounds like an aboustely brilliant idea. Making most fan made rules look like cannon fodder.
Looks like you need to adapt your tactics. Missing the fact that powerful units are belied by a high points cost and very low model count.
After reading more in depth lots and lots of people hate the grey knight book.
No, a small minority of people actually hate the Grey Knight Codex. The rest are bandwagoners or have baseless arguments so are excluded as morons.
NO not really clearly you have not talked to people outside of your district, everyone at my store, which is a gw store, Hate the new codex.
Then you're local is part of that minority.
The Space Marine Codex is the only reasonable book he has produced....
Aside from the Blood Angels Codex and Grey Knight Codex.
Not really, The Original Grey Knight Codex, It is alot better than the current version. Let me rephrase that, Compared to the current version, the Older grey knight codex is 300000x better than the current as the fluff does not contradict other sources... Also they are down to 1,000 marines which for the grey knights sucks. IT was better when they were spread thinly.
Please, explain what sources is this up to date Codex contradicting? Not to mention that those sources have now been retconned, and cannot now be contradicted.
I believe he is CS. Goto. Though this is a theory, not actually based on anything apart from he is that bad, that it Makes Me feel like Goto would try to reclaim 40k and want to kill Ward with a hobby knife.
C.S Goto breaks the fluff in everything he writes, Mat Ward does not.
Are you joking? Or are you high?
No, you must be. Nothing Ward has written has broken the fluff of 40k. In fact, it has been made more 40k.
If you have ever heard of Zeist it is stolen from Highlander......
And?
Its funny that he can't think of a good name by himself.
Yes, because it's the only example of a name in 40k that's been taken from another source. Zeist isn't exactly common or iconic either, and it doesn't seem to bother people.
I don't really understand why would Necrons and Blood Angels team up again????? I Would think the Former Legion would slaughter the necrons afterwards by blowing a hole in their robotic skulls.
They don't, they pause in fighting each other to fight the Tyranids, no alliance is made. They then go their separate ways, fighting each other would have destroyed them both.
Uhhh, You know the Space Marines literally say, Death to Xenos right? So that also means even if they all die and take out the necrons it was worth it in the end. Such does say the Codex Astrates.
Yeah, do you have a copy of that fictional book? Forgetting that Space Marines are not idiots, they can do whatever they want, and that they were being lead by Dante, the wisest of all Space Marines, who knew that his force of Blood Angels is more valuable to the Imperium than a few more dead Necrons.
After playing a few games against the grey knights I do have to say the Grey Knights lists are hard to beat even against my plasma list, which literally was useless against the inqusitior. AS the only effective way was to kill termiantors is with plasma weaponry. I relied on military tactics (Favorablely the Pincer Maneuver which was fun.) and crushed the opponent, which everyone should do,
So your plasma list was negated simply because you were fighting an ANTI-PLASMA list? Astounding.
Baseless argument is baseless.
Baseless Argument eh? Well I got something for ya.
After playing for 10 years, I have learned that the Grey knights were awesome. Now lets picture this, The Grey Knights were 3,000 strong and could take on a horde of daemons without the aid of giant robot gundams, now they need Gundams, As they believe that putting more useless armor upon them selves and using daemonic weapons which are utterly against their basis of being pure soldiers that kill other chapters for containing just a single daemonic object like a pin pong ball they will go out to destroy the chapter and take the object and use it for their own means. Yeah. If that isn't chaos, I don't know what is.
They don't need Dreadknight, it's there as a more effective way of taking on a Greater Daemon or Daemon Prince, it doesn't mean the Grey Knights can't do it by themselves any more. The holy protection given by the Sisters was quite clearly not useless. Grey Knights are not pure soldiers in the same sense you think they are.
I don't understand, are you saying the Grey Knights now destroy Chapters of Space Marines? Since when? Did the purple Dragon give you this source? They mind-wipe any they come across.
The Grey knights under Mat Ward's Fluff make them into Chaos Space Marine Champions. Sorry but the evidence points to them being well evil, the grey knights are corrupted so much so, I believe it would make C.S. Goto forfiet his salary, It also makes some chaos space marines look absolutely better in comparison.
They fight for humanity, against Daemons, they're whole purpose in life is to fight them, not at all like a Chaos Champion. Evil they are none, therefore stop, I see thee knowest them not.
Also I believe your opinion is negated as you are kinda of talking to a custodes player that has seen the grey knights slaughter a Custodian Guard Squad, Then get aboustely owned by my walking tanks that I like to call overlords.
In what way does that make my opinion that the Grey Knight codex is not bad negated by that strange example? Or are you talking about my thoughts on the Grey Knights being superior to Custodes? Becasue those Custodes just got killed by the Grey Knights apparently.
Also read some of the old fluff, you will learn that the Grey Knights utterly refused to use daemon weapons and Daemon Hosts in anyway, as they saw them as evil and would rather stab them to death. The Grey Knights will not use chaos to counter chaos, doesn't that make them chaos then?!?!??
No, they still don't use Chaos to counter Chaos. Sorcery is not Chaos. Sorcery is a process which involves ritual and sacrifice in which power is sourced from a psyker or from the Warp, in order to have a certain effect. In this case, they used the sacrifice given by the Sisters of Battle, using their psychic powers, in order to enact a ritual which would anoint their armour to protect them from the Bloodtide.
By the way the Sisters of battle are part of the inqusition and they do have knowledge of daemons.... Hence... The Ordo Heretics.... Which investigates hersey and corruption and daemons within the imperium. Just imagine what would happen if the ordo herectics learned that an entire order was slaughtered? By daemon weapons.... used by the grey knights.... who are using sorcery. Yeah I am sensing another Thousand Sons Reference right there. Damn Magnus would be pissed.[/quote
What order was slaughtered? This from the same source the Dragon gave you? No Daemon weapons were used against the Sisters of Battle in the Bloodtide story, just the Nemesis Force Weapons the Grey Knights use, which are not Daemon Weapons in any way. Magnus would be pissed. However, The Emperor has instructed the Grey Knights to use sorcery. Argument undermined.
iproxtaco wrote:Probably good for you to read the Codex before forming a baseless opinion like that, Asherian Command
I have read the codex. And maybe you should learn to read other fluff first.
I have, all of it. Not really seeing why I had to though, it's just the same but with less details.
That took a lot of editing to try and obtain a semblance of order.
Automatically Appended Next Post: You may be able to make one when the Siters of Battle codex come out, depending on what Inquisition forces they have in it. You could always adapt your own Stormtroopers I think a few people on the forum have done this.
Don't get me started on Draigo. His fluff and the use of Daemonhosts in a Grey Knight army are the two bits I don't like in the Codex.
im2randomghgh wrote:
Dreads are already hugely powerful. Make it fly and it becomes about 2x deadlier. Then give it psychic powers and you've broken a codex.
They need to fix it. This is worse than that whole "Fish o' Fury" thing.
hahahahahaha
Okay, sorry I didn't notice you were pulling my leg until you brought up Fish o' Fury as being broken. I should have known you were joking when you brought up libdreads instead of Meph or Blood Talons, but didn't. Props.
They fixed the fish O' fury, but they used to be tournament-breakingly good.
Then, for the first time ever, GW decided to fix one of it's problems!.
Seriously, before the being stationary made them land thing came into play, extreme heavy weapons were the only way to deal with it. And even then, not very easy to do. 54 str5 shots a turn without being able to assault is just...scary.
im2randomghgh wrote:
Dreads are already hugely powerful. Make it fly and it becomes about 2x deadlier. Then give it psychic powers and you've broken a codex.
They need to fix it. This is worse than that whole "Fish o' Fury" thing.
hahahahahaha
Okay, sorry I didn't notice you were pulling my leg until you brought up Fish o' Fury as being broken. I should have known you were joking when you brought up libdreads instead of Meph or Blood Talons, but didn't. Props.
They fixed the fish O' fury, but they used to be tournament-breakingly good.
Then, for the first time ever, GW decided to fix one of it's problems!.
Seriously, before the being stationary made them land thing came into play, extreme heavy weapons were the only way to deal with it. And even then, not very easy to do. 54 str5 shots a turn without being able to assault is just...scary.
I evidently missed something over the past 10 years, which happens a lot come to think of it.
iproxtaco wrote:
You may be able to make one when the Siters of Battle codex come out, depending on what Inquisition forces they have in it. You could always adapt your own Stormtroopers I think a few people on the forum have done this.
Don't get me started on Draigo. His fluff and the use of Daemonhosts in a Grey Knight army are the two bits I don't like in the Codex.
I can agree with you on that. I rather Have Justicar Alaric as the Supreme Grand Master .
Which would be AWESOME eh?
I want them to write the codex just so they could enter in some of the more well known characters.
im2randomghgh wrote:
Dreads are already hugely powerful. Make it fly and it becomes about 2x deadlier. Then give it psychic powers and you've broken a codex.
They need to fix it. This is worse than that whole "Fish o' Fury" thing.
hahahahahaha
Okay, sorry I didn't notice you were pulling my leg until you brought up Fish o' Fury as being broken. I should have known you were joking when you brought up libdreads instead of Meph or Blood Talons, but didn't. Props.
They fixed the fish O' fury, but they used to be tournament-breakingly good.
Then, for the first time ever, GW decided to fix one of it's problems!.
Seriously, before the being stationary made them land thing came into play, extreme heavy weapons were the only way to deal with it. And even then, not very easy to do. 54 str5 shots a turn without being able to assault is just...scary.
I evidently missed something over the past 10 years, which happens a lot come to think of it.
What was the Fish o' Fury?
Take two devilfish transports and park them in chevron formation, with the troops hiding behind. The troops can still shoot, and if anyone wants assault, they have to go all the way around the devilfish (one of the largest transports in the game) while having 54 str5 shots a turn flying at them, and they can't assault the fish, cause they're hover craft. for armies with weak AT (necrons tyranids Orks) it was enough to win a battle. I'll find an article about it.
iproxtaco wrote:
You may be able to make one when the Siters of Battle codex come out, depending on what Inquisition forces they have in it. You could always adapt your own Stormtroopers I think a few people on the forum have done this.
Don't get me started on Draigo. His fluff and the use of Daemonhosts in a Grey Knight army are the two bits I don't like in the Codex.
I can agree with you on that. I rather Have Justicar Alaric as the Supreme Grand Master .
Which would be AWESOME eh?
I want them to write the codex just so they could enter in some of the more well known characters.
I have plans to convert him as my second Grand Master, it would be pretty fething awesome though.
I just need some special rules to make him stand out.
im2randomghgh wrote:
Dreads are already hugely powerful. Make it fly and it becomes about 2x deadlier. Then give it psychic powers and you've broken a codex.
They need to fix it. This is worse than that whole "Fish o' Fury" thing.
hahahahahaha
Okay, sorry I didn't notice you were pulling my leg until you brought up Fish o' Fury as being broken. I should have known you were joking when you brought up libdreads instead of Meph or Blood Talons, but didn't. Props.
They fixed the fish O' fury, but they used to be tournament-breakingly good.
Then, for the first time ever, GW decided to fix one of it's problems!.
Seriously, before the being stationary made them land thing came into play, extreme heavy weapons were the only way to deal with it. And even then, not very easy to do. 54 str5 shots a turn without being able to assault is just...scary.
I evidently missed something over the past 10 years, which happens a lot come to think of it.
What was the Fish o' Fury?
Take two devilfish transports and park them in chevron formation, with the troops hiding behind. The troops can still shoot, and if anyone wants assault, they have to go all the way around the devilfish (one of the largest transports in the game) while having 54 str5 shots a turn flying at them, and they can't assault the fish, cause they're hover craft. for armies with weak AT (necrons tyranids Orks) it was enough to win a battle. I'll find an article about it.
iproxtaco wrote:
You may be able to make one when the Siters of Battle codex come out, depending on what Inquisition forces they have in it. You could always adapt your own Stormtroopers I think a few people on the forum have done this.
Don't get me started on Draigo. His fluff and the use of Daemonhosts in a Grey Knight army are the two bits I don't like in the Codex.
I can agree with you on that. I rather Have Justicar Alaric as the Supreme Grand Master .
Which would be AWESOME eh?
I want them to write the codex just so they could enter in some of the more well known characters.
I have plans to convert him as my second Grand Master, it would be pretty fething awesome though.
I just need some special rules to make him stand out.
Or you could play an army that wasn't spawned by Mat Ward. Space Wolves are also an elite, low model-count army.
And the only Fish O' Fury article I could find was a 1d4chan one :(
iproxtaco wrote:Although unless you are EXTREMELY odd, who the author is shouldn't restrict you to what armies you can play.
yes, it should. If hitler wrote the Bible, would you still be Christian (if you are)?
That is an unbelievable extreme example, but it;s the same concept, kinda.
They fething performed a khornate ritual and sacrificed the SOB, and bathed in their blood.
Custodes rape them in every way that could possibly be conceived.
I'm not, so won't say anything about the bible, which has no one author. It's not really the same. A codex is a source book, you use it to look at the rules, fluff is not necessary, it doesn't matter then who puts the numbers on the page.
They did not perform a Khorne ritual, and they did not bath.
Not against Daemons. Grey Knights are far, far superior at fighting Daemons than the Custodes. Refer to earlier post as to why this is so.
yes, it should. If hitler wrote the Bible, would you still be Christian (if you are)?
That is an unbelievable extreme example, but it;s the same concept, kinda.
LOL
im2randomghgh wrote:
They fething performed a khornate ritual and sacrificed the SOB, and bathed in their blood.
Custodes rape them in every way that could possibly be conceived.
At least three times in this thread has the nature of the ritual been brought up, and argued against until the opposing party left the thread. You are making this thread go in circles.
iproxtaco wrote:Although unless you are EXTREMELY odd, who the author is shouldn't restrict you to what armies you can play.
yes, it should. If hitler wrote the Bible, would you still be Christian (if you are)?
That is an unbelievable extreme example, but it;s the same concept, kinda.
They fething performed a khornate ritual and sacrificed the SOB, and bathed in their blood.
Custodes rape them in every way that could possibly be conceived.
I'm not, so won't say anything about the bible, which has no one author. It's not really the same. A codex is a source book, you use it to look at the rules, fluff is not necessary, it doesn't matter then who puts the numbers on the page.
They did not perform a Khorne ritual, and they did not bath.
Not against Daemons. Grey Knights are far, far superior at fighting Daemons than the Custodes. Refer to earlier post as to why this is so.
No. grey knights have no advantage whatsoever. Custodes are bigger, better, faster, stronger, better equipped, better trained, made with a more sophisticated process, more experienced, and unlike GK (pansies) who travel to destinations to fight daemons, whereas Custodians are constantly fighting the daemons who emerge through the gate in the Emperor's throne-room. 24/7.
It (40k wiki) says that Guardian Spears are force-weapons, implying that all custodes are latent psykers. Custodians FTW!
And the Grey Knights are infinitely better at fighting Daemons than the Custodes are.
No. They aren't. Custodes are better in every respect, and are even harder to corrupt than GK are. When a GK (Alaric) recieved the collar of khorne, he lost his psychic shield, and became as resistant to corruption as any other space marine. The Custodes are always incorruptible, having spent 13,000 years by the Emperor's side. They also fight daemons literally every day, as the Portal Magnus destroy is an enormous warp-rift that is contained by 300 Custodians. Custodes are bigger, better equipped, fast, stronger, better trained, and more experienced.
GK can [Mod Edit - Whoa! Language, please.]
That's the most ridiculous thing I've heard today. The Custodes are not better at fighting Daemons than the Grey Knights.
How can you use that as an example? Was he corrupted? NO. The only protection Custodes have is their conviction, no psychic shields, metal conditioning, or souls that are literally painful to Daemons.
Where's the other 3000 years from?
And no they don't fight Daemons every day. The Emperor is on the Golden Throne to keep that portal closed, he does this using his psychic might, protecting the human section. The Companions are the only ones that can stand in the Emperors presence they do not fight Daemons all the time.
Bigger isn't an advantage. Terminator plus Aegis is better than Custode Armour, Nemesis weapons are better than their Halberds. Psycannons? Only marginally faster and stronger. Not against Daemons and today's enemies the Imperium faces, Grey Knights have been trained to fight them all. They've spent the last 10,000 years standing around, with the occasional foray out into the Noble Houses or Blood Games, so no they aren't more experienced, especially against Daemons. Plus, they aren't psykers and they don't work together, thus the only advantage they have is that they're slightly faster and stronger, not really that much of one against Daemons.
There's also no source for their weapons being force weapons, thus the writer made it up. They are also not described anywhere as being psykers in any form, so no they aren't. Latent psykers really aren't anywhere near what the Grey Knights are anyway. You completely missed this post.
Matt Ward wrote a passable Ultramarines codex.
He didn't mess it up too badly and although there were a fair few Mary Sue moments you do get them everywhere.
That's the kind of pointless, baseless and idiotic comment we don't need, especially after we actually had a real conversation about specific parts of his works. Clearly you don't understand anything that we've posted, and decided to say that, instead of adding to the argument.
I agree with iproxtaco, just because he wrote a few bad fluff stories doesn't mean that he must die because of it.
But we really hope that he will correct them in a orderly manner. That or that GW simply get him fired and pur Dan Abnet to write fluff...
Brother Coa wrote:I agree with iproxtaco, just because he wrote a few bad fluff stories doesn't mean that he must die because of it.
But we really hope that he will correct them in a orderly manner. That or that GW simply get him fired and pur Dan Abnet to write fluff...
Or ben counter and Graham Mcneil to write the codex in a joint operation.
The only tangible thing I've been irked by Ward is the Blood Angel/Necron team up. I am not angry over anything else really.
*this post has come before the possible dark age of Necron marines, should that codex be so terrible it spawns a great storm of rage and fail, this post will be edited for posterity.*
He is Wargamings bobby kotick. Basically he is an ignorant, arrogant, tool that writes bad fluff, feths old better fluff, and if hes entire genetic code got flung into the sun i would not lose nay sleep over the news report "Ass hole has himself and his entire family all over the world flung into the sun. Scientists say "WTF bro"."
Not been in on WH for long but even i can tell his a dumb ass.
And the Grey Knights are infinitely better at fighting Daemons than the Custodes are.
No. They aren't. Custodes are better in every respect, and are even harder to corrupt than GK are. When a GK (Alaric) recieved the collar of khorne, he lost his psychic shield, and became as resistant to corruption as any other space marine. The Custodes are always incorruptible, having spent 13,000 years by the Emperor's side. They also fight daemons literally every day, as the Portal Magnus destroy is an enormous warp-rift that is contained by 300 Custodians. Custodes are bigger, better equipped, fast, stronger, better trained, and more experienced.
GK can [Mod Edit - Whoa! Language, please.]
That's the most ridiculous thing I've heard today. The Custodes are not better at fighting Daemons than the Grey Knights.
How can you use that as an example? Was he corrupted? NO. The only protection Custodes have is their conviction, no psychic shields, metal conditioning, or souls that are literally painful to Daemons.
Where's the other 3000 years from?
And no they don't fight Daemons every day. The Emperor is on the Golden Throne to keep that portal closed, he does this using his psychic might, protecting the human section. The Companions are the only ones that can stand in the Emperors presence they do not fight Daemons all the time.
Bigger isn't an advantage.
Terminator plus Aegis is better than Custode Armour, Nemesis weapons are better than their Halberds. Psycannons?
Only marginally faster and stronger.
Not against Daemons and today's enemies the Imperium faces, Grey Knights have been trained to fight them all.
They've spent the last 10,000 years standing around, with the occasional foray out into the Noble Houses or Blood Games, so no they aren't more experienced, especially against Daemons.
Plus, they aren't psykers and they don't work together, thus the only advantage they have is that they're slightly faster and stronger, not really that much of one against Daemons.
There's also no source for their weapons being force weapons, thus the writer made it up. They are also not described anywhere as being psykers in any form, so no they aren't. Latent psykers really aren't anywhere near what the Grey Knights are anyway.
You completely missed this post.
1. punctuation please
2. They are halfway in between astartes and primarchs. They are so vastly superior to custodes that it would be like comparing Kharn to a gretchin. Every single primarch that was corrupted was corrupted willingly. 13,000 years by the Emperor's side, closer than even his sons generally makes daemons NOT want to eat your soul. And saying they have no mental conditioning is hilarious. They are infinitely more selective in recruitment than astartes could ever afford to be, as they, being the Emperor's bodyguards, can never, ever afford to fail. If they did, the astronomicon would collapse, the Chaos Gods would enter the material world, and everything in the universe would die.
3. They served with the Emperor during the Unification Wars, not just during the crusade. that's where the 3000 years came from.
4. The Emperor's psychic might does three things: 1. keep him alive. 2. power the astronomicon and 3. hold the CG out of the phsical universe/ He doesn't/can't hold daemons out, otherwise the eye would not be a problem. The 300 custodes spend every moment of every day fighting against said daemons.
5. Bigger is better. Would you rather have a guardsman with a las-pistol backing you up, or a warmonger titan?
-And custode armour is better. More protection than termie/artificer armour, and more mobility than power armour. It is lean and nigh-indestructible. In The first Heretic, a full bolter clip was pumped point-blank at a custode, and ever one hit, but the armour held. there was minor damage to the eye, but that was all.
-No. They are MUCH faster and MUCH stronger. Again, in First Heretic, a custode killed three astartes within a second. He only got shot at because he paused to level charges at Lorgar.
-So have custodes. Do you think they just sit on their haunches all day long? No, they train and endure the Blood Games. They are also all veterans of the Unification Wars, GC, and HH.
6. Not working together means that, unlike Ultrasmurfs who stand shoulder to shoulder with their butt-buddies, a single krak missile won't kill them all. They are not trained to sit there and fire salvos, they are trained to get gak done and protect the Emprah.
7. Alaric, a gay knight, is latent. So don't bash latent psykers
And Guardian spears are so vastly superior to nemesis weapons it's not even funny. As to them not being force weapons, I believe it was Andy Hoare who described them as such.
What if he were just chummed and thrown into the ocean? Do you think the dolphins and sharks would set aside their differences to team up and devour the meat croutons?
2. They are halfway in between astartes and primarchs. They are so vastly superior to custodes that it would be like comparing Kharn to a gretchin. Every single primarch that was corrupted was corrupted willingly. 13,000 years by the Emperor's side, closer than even his sons generally makes daemons NOT want to eat your soul. And saying they have no mental conditioning is hilarious. They are infinitely more selective in recruitment than astartes could ever afford to be, as they, being the Emperor's bodyguards, can never, ever afford to fail. If they did, the astronomicon would collapse, the Chaos Gods would enter the material world, and everything in the universe would die.
3. They served with the Emperor during the Unification Wars, not just during the crusade. that's where the 3000 years came from.
4. The Emperor's psychic might does three things: 1. keep him alive. 2. power the astronomicon and 3. hold the CG out of the phsical universe/ He doesn't/can't hold daemons out, otherwise the eye would not be a problem. The 300 custodes spend every moment of every day fighting against said daemons.
5. Bigger is better. Would you rather have a guardsman with a las-pistol backing you up, or a warmonger titan?
-And custode armour is better. More protection than termie/artificer armour, and more mobility than power armour. It is lean and nigh-indestructible. In The first Heretic, a full bolter clip was pumped point-blank at a custode, and ever one hit, but the armour held. there was minor damage to the eye, but that was all.
-No. They are MUCH faster and MUCH stronger. Again, in First Heretic, a custode killed three astartes within a second. He only got shot at because he paused to level charges at Lorgar.
-So have custodes. Do you think they just sit on their haunches all day long? No, they train and endure the Blood Games. They are also all veterans of the Unification Wars, GC, and HH.
6. Not working together means that, unlike Ultrasmurfs who stand shoulder to shoulder with their butt-buddies, a single krak missile won't kill them all. They are not trained to sit there and fire salvos, they are trained to get gak done and protect the Emprah.
7. Alaric, a gay knight, is latent. So don't bash latent psykers
And Guardian spears are so vastly superior to nemesis weapons it's not even funny. As to them not being force weapons, I believe it was Andy Hoare who described them as such.
Wow. Care to try and actually back up your arguments?
During a conversation in First Heretic, one character states that you shouldn't bet on a Custode if they ever fought a Space Marine as the two are so alike. So no, they are not half way between an Astartes and the Primarchs, not that possibly being marginially faster and stronger is a massive advantage against Daemons, considering this is what we're talking about, which force is better at fighting Daemons.
Actually, considering the Primarchs are the physical sons of the Emperor, using his own genetic material, and no firm evidence is given about Custodes using the Emperor's, they are not 'closer'. Have any evidence to suggest the Custodes have souls that are not palatable to Daemons? One was used as a sacrifice during a sorcerous ritual on Cadia, they clearly are, whereas the Grey Knights aren't.
It's hinted more that the Custodes are created and not recruited. Therefore, they don't have to prove themselves like the Grey Knights recruits have to.
Fine, 13,000 years, I have been proved wrong.
The Emperor's psychic might does not keep him alive. The Golden Throne does. He protects the human part of the Webway. Without his psychic sheath it's a Warp Portal right on Terra. He protects it and stops the Warp from pouring through. He does not keep the The Eye of Terror closed, and does not even try to. The Custodes DO NOT fight Daemons everyday, unless you can give me clear and hard evidence to suggest the contrary. The Warp portal beneath the Throne is CLOSED, no Daemons can get through. Custodes do not fight Daemons everyday.
If I needed a scout or something to carry out infiltration or fight in a built up area, then yeah. I would prefer the guardsman.
Hmm, the armour buckled in the end though, and still doesn't give as much protection as Terminator with Aegis against Daemons. Better than power armour sure, in-between Terminator and Power, which would be Artificer. Do the have the Aegis? Nope, therefore they are not better protected against Daemons.
Refer to previous point about strength. They are the same, or only marginally faster and stronger, which again, is not that much of an advantage against Daemons.
They can do as much training as they want, for as long as they want, they still don't go out an actively fight, so they do not have as much experience as the Grey Knights. Especially not against Daemons, who the GKs fight their entire lives non stop.
Actually, working together means actually helping each other out, coordinating abilites and tactics, and working coherently to take down their enemies. The Custodes are described as not doing this at all. Are you saying that it is now somehow an advantage? Ha. Yeah, that's being bunched up, different from working together.
Get S**t done individually, they don't work together to get s**t done, a whole lot less effective than working as a team to do the same thing.
There are no latent Grey KNights psykers, they are all very powerful full psykers, it's a requirment. There is nothing to even hint that Custodes are psykers of any form.
Link does not work, therfore you have no proof. They are not psykers. Their weapons are power weapons at best. Due to them not being Nemesis Weapons, and the custodes not being psykers, Nemesis force weapons are infinately better against Daemons than the Guardian Spears. With attached Storm Bolters loaded with psy-bolt ammo? So much better versus Daemons than the bolters on the Custode spears, and the lasers some of them have. Psycannons? Psilensers? Nemesis Dreadknight? Custodes have none of these. Do they have the Liber Daemonicum( Don't have access to the codex right now)?
tgf wrote:What if he were just chummed and thrown into the ocean? Do you think the dolphins and sharks would set aside their differences to team up and devour the meat croutons?
2. They are halfway in between astartes and primarchs. They are so vastly superior to custodes that it would be like comparing Kharn to a gretchin. Every single primarch that was corrupted was corrupted willingly. 13,000 years by the Emperor's side, closer than even his sons generally makes daemons NOT want to eat your soul. And saying they have no mental conditioning is hilarious. They are infinitely more selective in recruitment than astartes could ever afford to be, as they, being the Emperor's bodyguards, can never, ever afford to fail. If they did, the astronomicon would collapse, the Chaos Gods would enter the material world, and everything in the universe would die.
3. They served with the Emperor during the Unification Wars, not just during the crusade. that's where the 3000 years came from.
4. The Emperor's psychic might does three things: 1. keep him alive. 2. power the astronomicon and 3. hold the CG out of the phsical universe/ He doesn't/can't hold daemons out, otherwise the eye would not be a problem. The 300 custodes spend every moment of every day fighting against said daemons.
5. Bigger is better. Would you rather have a guardsman with a las-pistol backing you up, or a warmonger titan?
-And custode armour is better. More protection than termie/artificer armour, and more mobility than power armour. It is lean and nigh-indestructible. In The first Heretic, a full bolter clip was pumped point-blank at a custode, and ever one hit, but the armour held. there was minor damage to the eye, but that was all.
-No. They are MUCH faster and MUCH stronger. Again, in First Heretic, a custode killed three astartes within a second. He only got shot at because he paused to level charges at Lorgar.
-So have custodes. Do you think they just sit on their haunches all day long? No, they train and endure the Blood Games. They are also all veterans of the Unification Wars, GC, and HH.
6. Not working together means that, unlike Ultrasmurfs who stand shoulder to shoulder with their butt-buddies, a single krak missile won't kill them all. They are not trained to sit there and fire salvos, they are trained to get gak done and protect the Emprah.
7. Alaric, a gay knight, is latent. So don't bash latent psykers
And Guardian spears are so vastly superior to nemesis weapons it's not even funny. As to them not being force weapons, I believe it was Andy Hoare who described them as such.
Wow. Care to try and actually back up your arguments?
During a conversation in First Heretic, one character states that you shouldn't bet on a Custode if they ever fought a Space Marine as the two are so alike. So no, they are not half way between an Astartes and the Primarchs, not that possibly being marginially faster and stronger is a massive advantage against Daemons, considering this is what we're talking about, which force is better at fighting Daemons.
Actually, considering the Primarchs are the physical sons of the Emperor, using his own genetic material, and no firm evidence is given about Custodes using the Emperor's, they are not 'closer'. Have any evidence to suggest the Custodes have souls that are not palatable to Daemons? One was used as a sacrifice during a sorcerous ritual on Cadia, they clearly are, whereas the Grey Knights aren't.
It's hinted more that the Custodes are created and not recruited. Therefore, they don't have to prove themselves like the Grey Knights recruits have to.
Fine, 13,000 years, I have been proved wrong.
The Emperor's psychic might does not keep him alive. The Golden Throne does. He protects the human part of the Webway. Without his psychic sheath it's a Warp Portal right on Terra. He protects it and stops the Warp from pouring through. He does not keep the The Eye of Terror closed, and does not even try to. The Custodes DO NOT fight Daemons everyday, unless you can give me clear and hard evidence to suggest the contrary. The Warp portal beneath the Throne is CLOSED, no Daemons can get through. Custodes do not fight Daemons everyday.
If I needed a scout or something to carry out infiltration or fight in a built up area, then yeah. I would prefer the guardsman.
Hmm, the armour buckled in the end though, and still doesn't give as much protection as Terminator with Aegis against Daemons. Better than power armour sure, in-between Terminator and Power, which would be Artificer. Do the have the Aegis? Nope, therefore they are not better protected against Daemons.
Refer to previous point about strength. They are the same, or only marginally faster and stronger, which again, is not that much of an advantage against Daemons.
They can do as much training as they want, for as long as they want, they still don't go out an actively fight, so they do not have as much experience as the Grey Knights. Especially not against Daemons, who the GKs fight their entire lives non stop.
Actually, working together means actually helping each other out, coordinating abilites and tactics, and working coherently to take down their enemies. The Custodes are described as not doing this at all. Are you saying that it is now somehow an advantage? Ha. Yeah, that's being bunched up, different from working together.
Get S**t done individually, they don't work together to get s**t done, a whole lot less effective than working as a team to do the same thing.
There are no latent Grey KNights psykers, they are all very powerful full psykers, it's a requirment. There is nothing to even hint that Custodes are psykers of any form.
Link does not work, therfore you have no proof. They are not psykers. Their weapons are power weapons at best. Due to them not being Nemesis Weapons, and the custodes not being psykers, Nemesis force weapons are infinately better against Daemons than the Guardian Spears. With attached Storm Bolters loaded with psy-bolt ammo? So much better versus Daemons than the bolters on the Custode spears, and the lasers some of them have. Psycannons? Psilensers? Nemesis Dreadknight? Custodes have none of these. Do they have the Liber Daemonicum( Don't have access to the codex right now)?
So much of that is wrong. So very, very much. But I bolded the most desperately wrong parts.
I will discuss the bolded parts one at a time.
1.
The Custodes were the greatest group of physiologically and psychologically-enhanced troops the Emperor had ever created, ten thousand strong and the best trained, most disciplined and most vigilant watchmen in the Imperium.
Genetically Enhanced, not manufactured. Humans, who are augmented. This quote says it all.
2.
Although once a living man, his shattered, decaying body can no longer support life, and it is kept intact only by the cybernetic mechanisms of the Golden Throne and a potent mind itself sustained by the daily sacrifice of thousands of lives
The GT itself is not what sustains him, it's his mind. Also, the GT is powered by his mind
3. Or you can just blow up the urban zone
4. No, they work as a unit, but they fight independently. They co-ordinate their attacks, but do not fight in formation. They are described as bear, as opposed to the wolf pack of astartes, however the wolf-pack thing is only an advantage when they out-number the bear, and even then wolves will die. here, the bears outnumber the wolves 10:1. They are trained for a different function anyway, so this whole comparison is kinda useless.
5. In the Omnibus it said that most GK are latent, including Alaric, and that it is usually only termies have active abilities. Game Mechanics do NOT equal fluff.
If you make your next post more concise, I'll respond to the whole thing rather than just the most obvious issues, cuz Imma lazy
GK aren't latent. Their abilities aren't strong enough to manifest themselves like a Librairan would but are powerful enough to form a psychic shield for themselves.
According to Aaron Dembski-Bowden, Custodes aren't psychic.
A D-B on Bolter and Chainsword wrote:
THE CUSTODIANS AREN'T PSYCHIC OH MY GOD I HATE YOU MIKAL.
Also, all Grey Knights are psychic. Its the first thing you need to be able to do as a potential GK recruit, and is necessary to use their Nemesis Force weapons. Alaric's powers were focused more on internal defense rather than offensive capabilities.
Much as I'm enjoying reading the current debate over whether Custodes or Grey Knights are more killy against daemons...
It occurred to me that I can't remember too many specifics about Matt Ward's supposed crappiness as an author and rules designer - since I presume writing Codexes counts as both. All I can recall from the thread is basically, "Matt Ward sucks," "Matt Ward sucks," "Necrons and Blood Angels bromance, bro," "Matt Ward sucks," "Bloodtide," "Matt Ward sucks," "Bloodtide and Matt Ward sucks," and, "Matt Ward sucks." I think there was a third specific in there, but I might be thinking along the lines of a mention of the entire vanilla Space Marines codex.
Apart from the Bloodtide thing, which was really super duper gross and everything regardless of its fluffwise sense-making, a lot of the thread's content was people complaining about Matt Ward but not really saying much apart from, "He sucks," and maybe a brief mention of one or two things he's written, with no quotations or explanations.
Some people explained their dislike of Matt Ward, but a lot of it did seem to be senseless dislike based on other people's info which traveled by word of mouth through Emperor knows how many people.
As far as I know, the only Codex I have that was written by him was Codex: Space Marines, which I bought for the rules and, admittedly, haven't read the many pages of fluff contained within. There did seem to be a bit of an infatuation with Ultramarines, but that would make sense. In the 3rd Edition Codex, there was a large picture on one inside cover of what was a monstrous collection of Ultramarines, including old-style Land Raiders, Rhinos, and even a pair of Thunderhawks. Just got the old book out. Inside front cover has a pair of photos with the entire Ultramarines chapter represented.
Just had a flip through the army list pages, and man, what a wave of nostalgia...
A lot of the photos in the, "Choosing a Space Marines Army," are from other chapters, but there are plenty from Ultramarines. They even have a short, "How to paint Ultramarines," article, and their, "Painting Space Marines Vehicles," section shows an Ultramarines Predator being painted. I remember back then, as many of you should as well, that we referred to Ultramarines as Games Workshop's poster boys, who got all the attention because they sell GW products. So it would make sense for them to get plenty of attention and reverence in the vanilla 'dex.
Edit: Nevermind, seems I was wrong. Went back and read a bunch of posts, people were indeed mentioning more specific stuff.
You haven't read the fluff, so you don't know his fanboyism. In a number of instances, he would actually take pre-existing fluff, and throw in a few small edits and extra adjectives to make the subject more awesomz 4 the win!!11!!! (Tigurius' fluff for example, changing from describing him as one of the most powerful psykers, to straight up hyperbole of being the most powerful psyker). And that's only a tiny example in the grand scheme of things.
He has also written the Blood Angels codex, which one-ups the SM codex for being silly, and the Grey Knights codex, which is equally full of silly, though the jury is still out whether its more silly than BA.
withershadow wrote:You haven't read the fluff, so you don't know his fanboyism. In a number of instances, he would actually take pre-existing fluff, and throw in a few small edits and extra adjectives to make the subject more awesomz 4 the win!!11!!! (Tigurius' fluff for example, changing from describing him as one of the most powerful psykers, to straight up hyperbole of being the most powerful psyker). And that's only a tiny example in the grand scheme of things.
He has also written the Blood Angels codex, which one-ups the SM codex for being silly, and the Grey Knights codex, which is equally full of silly, though the jury is still out whether its more silly than BA.
That's kinda my point... I haven't read any fluff he's written, apart from maybe a little bathroom reading with the vanilla SM codex. So I can't really judge, although I don't remember my reaction to the Space Marine unit fluff - the entries for individual units with several paragraphs of fluff on them.
On the Tigurius thing, I try to avoid special characters (unless I really like their mini) so I haven't read his stuff yet. But still, seems kinda silly... unless the competition were killed off. Then again, that would probably mean killing the Emperor on the throne. And probably some Eldar dudes.
I also hear a lot of hyperbole like your second paragraph, kinda like I do with some movies, but when I've watched some of those movies, I really don't get why they're so terrible.
I don't have the Blood Angels codex or the Grey Knights codex, and really have no intent of buying them, since I have no interest in playing them, so I can't judge there either.
withershadow wrote:You haven't read the fluff, so you don't know his fanboyism. In a number of instances, he would actually take pre-existing fluff, and throw in a few small edits and extra adjectives to make the subject more awesomz 4 the win!!11!!! (Tigurius' fluff for example, changing from describing him as one of the most powerful psykers, to straight up hyperbole of being the most powerful psyker). And that's only a tiny example in the grand scheme of things.
He has also written the Blood Angels codex, which one-ups the SM codex for being silly, and the Grey Knights codex, which is equally full of silly, though the jury is still out whether its more silly than BA.
...
On the Tigurius thing, I try to avoid special characters (unless I really like their mini) so I haven't read his stuff yet.
...
I don't have the Blood Angels codex or the Grey Knights codex, and really have no intent of buying them, since I have no interest in playing them, so I can't judge there either.
Well, lemme just point this out. You have no intent of reading the Blood Angels or Grey Knights codices, but people point out that these are his two most silly works. That's your choice (and I would urge you to, unlike me, save your money), but that right there is why you haven't seen too many specifics about what people dislike about Matt Ward.
So far, if you want to see Ward at his worst, you have to read the Blood Angels and Grey Knights rule books. If you don't, then you aren't going to see why most people don't like him. Similarly, if everyone goes on about how terrible the food is at a new restaurant, and you don't eat there, you aren't going to really get why everybody dislikes it.
It's waaay too time consuming to list specific examples of what offends about Matt Ward's writing, given that it often appears, in multiple places, on every page of the books. Not only is it time-consuming, it probably would fall foul to GW's protection of their intellectual property.
I must now go to bed, as I have stooped to describing Matt Ward's tripe as "intellectual" property. Sigh.
withershadow wrote:You haven't read the fluff, so you don't know his fanboyism. In a number of instances, he would actually take pre-existing fluff, and throw in a few small edits and extra adjectives to make the subject more awesomz 4 the win!!11!!! (Tigurius' fluff for example, changing from describing him as one of the most powerful psykers, to straight up hyperbole of being the most powerful psyker). And that's only a tiny example in the grand scheme of things.
He has also written the Blood Angels codex, which one-ups the SM codex for being silly, and the Grey Knights codex, which is equally full of silly, though the jury is still out whether its more silly than BA.
...
On the Tigurius thing, I try to avoid special characters (unless I really like their mini) so I haven't read his stuff yet.
...
I don't have the Blood Angels codex or the Grey Knights codex, and really have no intent of buying them, since I have no interest in playing them, so I can't judge there either.
Well, lemme just point this out. You have no intent of reading the Blood Angels or Grey Knights codices, but people point out that these are his two most silly works. That's your choice (and I would urge you to, unlike me, save your money), but that right there is why you haven't seen too many specifics about what people dislike about Matt Ward.
So far, if you want to see Ward at his worst, you have to read the Blood Angels and Grey Knights rule books. If you don't, then you aren't going to see why most people don't like him. Similarly, if everyone goes on about how terrible the food is at a new restaurant, and you don't eat there, you aren't going to really get why everybody dislikes it.
It's waaay too time consuming to list specific examples of what offends about Matt Ward's writing, given that it often appears, in multiple places, on every page of the books. Not only is it time-consuming, it probably would fall foul to GW's protection of their intellectual property.
I must now go to bed, as I have stooped to describing Matt Ward's tripe as "intellectual" property. Sigh.
Kay, that makes an astounding amount of sense and everything, but I really have no rebuttal. ^^
He made Dante sad and unwilling to go on, only able to continue the fight because of some prophecy about a Golden Warrior needed at the Emperor's side come the final battle, thinking it's him.
Kurgash wrote:He made Dante sad and unwilling to go on, only able to continue the fight because of some prophecy about a Golden Warrior needed at the Emperor's side come the final battle, thinking it's him.
Ookies...
I can see how that makes no sense. Why make him unwilling to go on, only to invent something random, reminiscient of Deus Ex Machina in a non-perilous way, to make him go on? Edit: If the story had a point to drive, then it's contrived at best.
Poor Dante, though. Did he at least get some hugs?
I have this on very good authority, that the issue with Matt Ward is he has advanced Syphilis which actually causes brain deterioration. GW gave him a job out of pity and don't have the heart to tell him he sucks. They are simply waiting for him to die then they will correct his works. Matt Ward should not be hated he should be pitied.
tgf wrote:I have this on very good authority, that the issue with Matt Ward is he has advanced Syphilis which actually causes brain deterioration. GW gave him a job out of pity and don't have the heart to tell him he sucks. They are simply waiting for him to die then they will correct his works. Matt Ward should not be hated he should be pitied.
Hrm, then what about Gav Thorpe and Alessio Cavatore or Jervis Johnson and Andy Hoare? Are they positively diagnosed with brain rot for writing two of the blandest books which have ever graced the world of warhammer 40k? Or perhaps Phil Kelly whose Space Wolves are, at least fluffwise, just barely more digestible than Ward's vanilla marines?
Seriously, one can say many bad things about Ward's fluff, some of them are even justified, but when it comes to writing balanced rules with very few useless unit entries he is actually quite good.
im2randomghgh wrote: Wow. Care to try and actually back up your arguments?
During a conversation in First Heretic, one character states that you shouldn't bet on a Custode if they ever fought a Space Marine as the two are so alike. So no, they are not half way between an Astartes and the Primarchs, not that possibly being marginially faster and stronger is a massive advantage against Daemons, considering this is what we're talking about, which force is better at fighting Daemons. Actually, considering the Primarchs are the physical sons of the Emperor, using his own genetic material, and no firm evidence is given about Custodes using the Emperor's, they are not 'closer'. Have any evidence to suggest the Custodes have souls that are not palatable to Daemons? One was used as a sacrifice during a sorcerous ritual on Cadia, they clearly are, whereas the Grey Knights aren't. It's hinted more that the Custodes are created and not recruited. Therefore, they don't have to prove themselves like the Grey Knights recruits have to.
Fine, 13,000 years, I have been proved wrong.
The Emperor's psychic might does not keep him alive. The Golden Throne does. He protects the human part of the Webway. Without his psychic sheath it's a Warp Portal right on Terra. He protects it and stops the Warp from pouring through. He does not keep the The Eye of Terror closed, and does not even try to. The Custodes DO NOT fight Daemons everyday, unless you can give me clear and hard evidence to suggest the contrary. The Warp portal beneath the Throne is CLOSED, no Daemons can get through. Custodes do not fight Daemons everyday. If I needed a scout or something to carry out infiltration or fight in a built up area, then yeah. I would prefer the guardsman. Hmm, the armour buckled in the end though, and still doesn't give as much protection as Terminator with Aegis against Daemons. Better than power armour sure, in-between Terminator and Power, which would be Artificer. Do the have the Aegis? Nope, therefore they are not better protected against Daemons. Refer to previous point about strength. They are the same, or only marginally faster and stronger, which again, is not that much of an advantage against Daemons. They can do as much training as they want, for as long as they want, they still don't go out an actively fight, so they do not have as much experience as the Grey Knights. Especially not against Daemons, who the GKs fight their entire lives non stop.
Actually, working together means actually helping each other out, coordinating abilites and tactics, and working coherently to take down their enemies. The Custodes are described as not doing this at all. Are you saying that it is now somehow an advantage? Ha. Yeah, that's being bunched up, different from working together. Get S**t done individually, they don't work together to get s**t done, a whole lot less effective than working as a team to do the same thing.
There are no latent Grey KNights psykers, they are all very powerful full psykers, it's a requirment. There is nothing to even hint that Custodes are psykers of any form.
Link does not work, therfore you have no proof. They are not psykers. Their weapons are power weapons at best. Due to them not being Nemesis Weapons, and the custodes not being psykers, Nemesis force weapons are infinately better against Daemons than the Guardian Spears. With attached Storm Bolters loaded with psy-bolt ammo? So much better versus Daemons than the bolters on the Custode spears, and the lasers some of them have. Psycannons? Psilensers? Nemesis Dreadknight? Custodes have none of these. Do they have the Liber Daemonicum( Don't have access to the codex right now)?
So much of that is wrong. So very, very much. But I bolded the most desperately wrong parts.
I will discuss the bolded parts one at a time.
1.
The Custodes were the greatest group of physiologically and psychologically-enhanced troops the Emperor had ever created, ten thousand strong and the best trained, most disciplined and most vigilant watchmen in the Imperium.
Genetically Enhanced, not manufactured. Humans, who are augmented. This quote says it all.
2.
Although once a living man, his shattered, decaying body can no longer support life, and it is kept intact only by the cybernetic mechanisms of the Golden Throne and a potent mind itself sustained by the daily sacrifice of thousands of lives
The GT itself is not what sustains him, it's his mind. Also, the GT is powered by his mind
3. Or you can just blow up the urban zone
4. No, they work as a unit, but they fight independently. They co-ordinate their attacks, but do not fight in formation. They are described as bear, as opposed to the wolf pack of astartes, however the wolf-pack thing is only an advantage when they out-number the bear, and even then wolves will die. here, the bears outnumber the wolves 10:1. They are trained for a different function anyway, so this whole comparison is kinda useless.
5. In the Omnibus it said that most GK are latent, including Alaric, and that it is usually only termies have active abilities. Game Mechanics do NOT equal fluff.
If you make your next post more concise, I'll respond to the whole thing rather than just the most obvious issues, cuz Imma lazy
Some people are pissed as Mat Ward because the Grey Knights are better than the Custodes against Daemons, and because they have near no evidence to suggest the opposite.
Obviously not, else you would try to argue all the points you disagreed with.
1. That's not what it says though, nothing there states they were humans before they became Custodes. Regardless, what does that even prove? They can be as selective as they want, doesn't mean it will ensure quality.
2. Nah, that's not what it says though. Thousands of psykers are sacrificed every day TO KEEP HIS MIND ALIVE. That also doesn't help you in any way with this argument. Good that you conceded the point about the Custodes not fighting Daemons everyday.
3. What if I don't want to blow up the Urban zone? A Hive? Yeah, I'd want a guardsmen.
4. You can't fight as a unit and fight independently at the same time. Each Custode fights his own battle, separate from the other Custodes around him. For the last time, they do not work together or coordinate their attacks. There is no way you can twist or swing that to become a positive or an advantage over the Grey Knights. You realize that we aren't talking about the Grey Knights against the Custodes, we're talking about which is better against Daemons. You're analogy would only work if the Bears were fighting forces that are Wolves compared to the Bear. And yet, they're fighting Daemons, or, other Bears. They only advantage they have over the Grey Knights against the same enemy is possibly being slightly stronger and faster. Not much of one against a fething Bloodthirster.
5. Page number? Actually, it doesn't matter, if that's in the codex then it's no longer true. All Grey Knights are powerful Psykers. All of them. There are no latent Grey Knights Psykers, and I'm fairly certain there never were any. Custodes are not Psykers in any way, shape or form, so have none of the advantages that come from this. All Psykers have active abilities, you can't use out-dated and retconned fluff against the current codex, so in this case, current fluff > old fluff, equation that!
Pouncey wrote:Kay, that makes an astounding amount of sense and everything, but I really have no rebuttal. ^^
There's also this, which once you get past the bad language you can see what it's about.
Okay, so, remember earlier, when I said I was ignorant of his debasement of 40k fluff? Now I'm not. Thanks. ^^
I wonder if anyone's burned an effigy of him yet...
You still are. Thinking you now know what you're talking about because you read a 4chan page betrays your ignorance.
Aww, I think someone needs a hug. ^^ :: hugs ::
Hopefully Matt Ward won't be in charge of the Sisters of Battle Codex. I hate to imagine what sort of fluff he'd write about Battle Sisters being killed in the Emperor's name in their own Codex.
You don't know what you're talking about by reading 4chan, to think that can now peak about Mat Ward and the Grey Knights codex after reading 4chan is laughable, and tells us you are still VERY ignorant. You have no opinion
iproxtaco wrote:You don't know what you're talking about by reading 4chan, to think that can now peak about Mat Ward and the Grey Knights codex after reading 4chan is laughable, and tells us you are still VERY ignorant. You have no opinion
Are you okay, dude? Do you need more hugs? :: hugs more ::
Do you have an alternative source I can read from that wouldn't require 35+ bucks a pop?
The Grey Knights codex from a place that sells them for less than that, or torrent it. Or, read lexicanum or 40k wiki they are at least viable. 4chan is not a source. You are still very ignorant to think otherwise. You still have no opinion.
iproxtaco wrote:You don't know what you're talking about by reading 4chan, to think that can now peak about Mat Ward and the Grey Knights codex after reading 4chan is laughable, and tells us you are still VERY ignorant. You have no opinion
Actually after reading that article it kinda reminded me of the fact that the codex is not bad. no no no no.
ITs Terribad.
Its history seems like it was written by like a 4 year old.
AT least have someone that isn't a Ultramarines fan write it. OMG ultramarines are written all over the codex.
The grey knights and the ultramarines teamed up against the blooks of the Chaos Forces. Raping and pillaging the chaos forces.
The ultramarines were so awesome they did not have to get their minds wiped. The Grey Knights then followed the codex astrates because they are gakking gits.
I used to love both of those chapters. But now they look like posers. Alaric and Chapters Due are the best characters and book series. Ever. But Matt Ward has no talent, apart from fething up 25 years of history.
plus the grey knights looked really badass before hand. If they put a little bit more time in like making the Dreadknight look this badass.
and not making it look like this......
now when ever I face them with my tau I have this similar reaction....
The Grey Knights should be awesome not fanfic.
Not only that but read this....
http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0083661/ Further Proof that Matt Ward has no talent...
iproxtaco wrote:Of course it would, it's fething 4chan. Taking extreme and baseless opinions and inflating them times a thousand, until they have no viability.
It would be nice if someone who disliked the codex told us why, instead of just saying it's bad and wishing horrible death on another human being.
Actually this is about why (if we don't like him) we don't like Matt Ward...
He wrote a passable Ultramarines codex.
BA was getting out of hand.
GK is great in some areas but poor in others. The fluff is also confusing and doesn't fit with the older stuff.
iproxtaco wrote:Of course it would, it's fething 4chan. Taking extreme and baseless opinions and inflating them times a thousand, until they have no viability.
It would be nice if someone who disliked the codex told us why, instead of just saying it's bad and wishing horrible death on another human being.
I dislike it because it is breaking 10 years of history. Mostly with Daemon Hosts and the Daemon Blades. And they lower the grey knights to follow the codex Astrates which my opinion is stupid as hell.
But after reading their lore about the history of the blood tide. I found something. http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0083661/ I found this after a quick google search. if your too lazy to read it here is a quick preview....
imbd wrote:An adventurer hunting for treasure in Greece accidentally frees a monster that forces local villagers to sacrifice virgins.
I dislike the same parts in the codex, but my overall like for it outweighs those small niggles. They only have one Daemon Weapon though, and that's not to use as a weapon.
iproxtaco wrote:The Grey Knights codex from a place that sells them for less than that, or torrent it. Or, read lexicanum or 40k wiki they are at least viable. 4chan is not a source. You are still very ignorant to think otherwise. You still have no opinion.
Okay...
From Lexicanum's Grey Knight's page:
To battle such enemies as Daemons, creatures that are not of this realm but formed of sorcery and madness, a Grey Knight must embrace the power of the Warp to battle a Daemon with its own weapons. Each Grey Knight is an accomplished, powerful psyker whose psychic presence is anathema to creatures of the Warp. They are trained to channel their psychic energies into a halo of protective wards known as the Aegis. Thusly armoured, a Grey Knight's presence becomes unpalatable to Daemons, making him immune to corruption, able to wield forbidden black magic, harness tainted artefacts and scour blasphemous tomes all without risk of being overwhelmed by the cursed power of Chaos.
Emphasis mine.
Which means that the entire story where the Grey Knights killed Sisters of Battle to obtain their blood to use in a mixture so they wouldn't become corrupted is crap, since they're immune to corruption by their own psychic defences - which do indeed have effects on the material realm, as evidenced by psychic powers that damage and kill things outside the spiritual realm.
iproxtaco wrote:I dislike the same parts in the codex, but my overall like for it outweighs those small niggles. They only have one Daemon Weapon though, and that's not to use as a weapon.
then why not lock it up on titan and put it behind thousands of protection wards? Instead of bringing it with them where the Crowe COULD DIE! and then oh no another daemon lord is on the loose.
The Blood Angels codex was great, barring some stupid rules, which aren't exactly over-powered, but are silly in concept.
The Space Marines codex was good in most places, but I agree that there is an unnecessary concentration on the Codex Astartes and the Ultramarines, both of which don't really give for very interesting chapters.
The Grey Knights codex is my favourite of the two, I just really like the concept of them, but ironically it's the one I have the most problems with.
Daemonhosts in a Grey Knight army is just wrong. Draigo is just like a fan-made OTT wet dream. The Dreadknight was good in idea, but the model is lack-lustre and doesn't look 40k, although Mat Ward did not design the model himself.
But after reading their lore about the history of the blood tide. I found something.
http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0083661/ I found this after a quick google search.
if your too lazy to read it here is a quick preview....
imbd wrote:An adventurer hunting for treasure in Greece accidentally frees a monster that forces local villagers to sacrifice virgins.
Uh, that movie has James Earl Jones, who is one of the baddest ass-kickers on the planet, and Jose Ferrer, who played the Padishah Emperor in Dune.
Pouncey wrote:
From Lexicanum's Grey Knight's page:
To battle such enemies as Daemons, creatures that are not of this realm but formed of sorcery and madness, a Grey Knight must embrace the power of the Warp to battle a Daemon with its own weapons. Each Grey Knight is an accomplished, powerful psyker whose psychic presence is anathema to creatures of the Warp. They are trained to channel their psychic energies into a halo of protective wards known as the Aegis. Thusly armoured, a Grey Knight's presence becomes unpalatable to Daemons, making him immune to corruption, able to wield forbidden black magic, harness tainted artefacts and scour blasphemous tomes all without risk of being overwhelmed by the cursed power of Chaos.
Emphasis mine.
Which means that the entire story where the Grey Knights killed Sisters of Battle to obtain their blood to use in a mixture so they wouldn't become corrupted is crap, since they're immune to corruption by their own psychic defences - which do indeed have effects on the material realm, as evidenced by psychic powers that damage and kill things outside the spiritual realm.
They're immune to corruption of the mind and soul, not corruption of their physical bodies which they had to protect.
Using the blood of the Sisters stopped the Blootide from corrupting their bodies and allowed them to defeat the Bloodthirster at it's source.
iproxtaco wrote:The Blood Angels codex was great, barring some stupid rules, which aren't exactly over-powered, but are silly in concept.
The Space Marines codex was good in most places, but I agree that there is an unnecessary concentration on the Codex Astartes and the Ultramarines, both of which don't really give for very interesting chapters.
The Grey Knights codex is my favourite of the two, I just really like the concept of them, but ironically it's the one I have the most problems with.
Daemonhosts in a Grey Knight army is just wrong. Draigo is just like a fan-made OTT wet dream. The Dreadknight was good in idea, but the model is lack-lustre and doesn't look 40k, although Mat Ward did not design the model himself.
I completely agree.
But Nerivant, that makes matt ward break a copy right. GW has been sueing people all the time about their copyrights being taken now. If the director read this, he would immediately know GW stole his ideas.
GW is a bunch of hypocrites.
iproxtaco wrote:The Blood Angels codex was great, barring some stupid rules, which aren't exactly over-powered, but are silly in concept.
The Space Marines codex was good in most places, but I agree that there is an unnecessary concentration on the Codex Astartes and the Ultramarines, both of which don't really give for very interesting chapters.
The Grey Knights codex is my favourite of the two, I just really like the concept of them, but ironically it's the one I have the most problems with.
Daemonhosts in a Grey Knight army is just wrong. Draigo is just like a fan-made OTT wet dream. The Dreadknight was good in idea, but the model is lack-lustre and doesn't look 40k, although Mat Ward did not design the model himself.
There was too much concentration on the Ultramarines...
It would have been interesting for them to show examples of the divisions among the codex astartes.
GK as a codex shouldn't have happened.
An Inquisition codex would be better since GK are just the militant wing of 1 ordo.
Instead we have GK codex with Ordos xenos and Hereticus for some reason.
Pouncey wrote:
From Lexicanum's Grey Knight's page:
To battle such enemies as Daemons, creatures that are not of this realm but formed of sorcery and madness, a Grey Knight must embrace the power of the Warp to battle a Daemon with its own weapons. Each Grey Knight is an accomplished, powerful psyker whose psychic presence is anathema to creatures of the Warp. They are trained to channel their psychic energies into a halo of protective wards known as the Aegis. Thusly armoured, a Grey Knight's presence becomes unpalatable to Daemons, making him immune to corruption, able to wield forbidden black magic, harness tainted artefacts and scour blasphemous tomes all without risk of being overwhelmed by the cursed power of Chaos.
Emphasis mine.
Which means that the entire story where the Grey Knights killed Sisters of Battle to obtain their blood to use in a mixture so they wouldn't become corrupted is crap, since they're immune to corruption by their own psychic defences - which do indeed have effects on the material realm, as evidenced by psychic powers that damage and kill things outside the spiritual realm.
They're immune to corruption of the mind and soul, not corruption of their physical bodies which they had to protect.
Using the blood of the Sisters stopped the Blootide from corrupting their bodies and allowed them to defeat the Bloodthirster at it's source.
The "mind and soul" part is not stated in the source you recommended, but the more general and blunt, "immune to corruption," with no qualifiers is.
But let's take it as read that that is the case.
It still doesn't make sense that killing the faithful for their blood would help at all, given that they're killing the faithful for their blood. It seems more like the Grey Knights gave in to corruption than anything else. Self-evident, really.
Pouncey wrote:
From Lexicanum's Grey Knight's page:
To battle such enemies as Daemons, creatures that are not of this realm but formed of sorcery and madness, a Grey Knight must embrace the power of the Warp to battle a Daemon with its own weapons. Each Grey Knight is an accomplished, powerful psyker whose psychic presence is anathema to creatures of the Warp. They are trained to channel their psychic energies into a halo of protective wards known as the Aegis. Thusly armoured, a Grey Knight's presence becomes unpalatable to Daemons, making him immune to corruption, able to wield forbidden black magic, harness tainted artefacts and scour blasphemous tomes all without risk of being overwhelmed by the cursed power of Chaos.
Emphasis mine.
Which means that the entire story where the Grey Knights killed Sisters of Battle to obtain their blood to use in a mixture so they wouldn't become corrupted is crap, since they're immune to corruption by their own psychic defences - which do indeed have effects on the material realm, as evidenced by psychic powers that damage and kill things outside the spiritual realm.
They're immune to corruption of the mind and soul, not corruption of their physical bodies which they had to protect.
Using the blood of the Sisters stopped the Blootide from corrupting their bodies and allowed them to defeat the Bloodthirster at it's source.
The "mind and soul" part is not stated in the source you recommended, but the more general and blunt, "immune to corruption," with no qualifiers is.
But let's take it as read that that is the case.
And what exactly do you think "corruption" is?
Hint: it's not a "physical" thing. Corruption is a term used to describe an idea relating to behavior, not physical traits.
It still doesn't make sense that killing the faithful for their blood would help at all, given that they're killing the faithful for their blood. It seems more like the Grey Knights gave in to corruption than anything else. Self-evident, really.
Yeah, because a sect of the Sororitas engineering asteroids and Ork Waaghs! to hit Imperial population centers that they deem 'corrupt' when they're harboring Genestealer hybrids in their midst is just downright pure right?
Sororitas have been corrupted and used by outside forces before.
That's not what remotely happened here with the Grey Knights.
The whole story is meant to resemble some of the more 'archaic' rituals that you see crop up in some texts about how to deal with monsters and the unholy.
'Blood of a pure soul' is not unheard of in that regard. Even in Arthurian myths, these kinds of things being used as ritualistic talismans weren't uncommon for the paragons of virtue that was the romantic ideal of a knight doing battle with the force of evil.
Or do you think tying a lock of hair from a lady to a sword was done for fashion sense?
Pouncey wrote:
From Lexicanum's Grey Knight's page:
To battle such enemies as Daemons, creatures that are not of this realm but formed of sorcery and madness, a Grey Knight must embrace the power of the Warp to battle a Daemon with its own weapons. Each Grey Knight is an accomplished, powerful psyker whose psychic presence is anathema to creatures of the Warp. They are trained to channel their psychic energies into a halo of protective wards known as the Aegis. Thusly armoured, a Grey Knight's presence becomes unpalatable to Daemons, making him immune to corruption, able to wield forbidden black magic, harness tainted artefacts and scour blasphemous tomes all without risk of being overwhelmed by the cursed power of Chaos.
Emphasis mine.
Which means that the entire story where the Grey Knights killed Sisters of Battle to obtain their blood to use in a mixture so they wouldn't become corrupted is crap, since they're immune to corruption by their own psychic defences - which do indeed have effects on the material realm, as evidenced by psychic powers that damage and kill things outside the spiritual realm.
They're immune to corruption of the mind and soul, not corruption of their physical bodies which they had to protect.
Using the blood of the Sisters stopped the Blootide from corrupting their bodies and allowed them to defeat the Bloodthirster at it's source.
The "mind and soul" part is not stated in the source you recommended, but the more general and blunt, "immune to corruption," with no qualifiers is.
But let's take it as read that that is the case.
And what exactly do you think "corruption" is?
Hint: it's not a "physical" thing. Corruption is a term used to describe an idea relating to behavior, not physical traits.
It still doesn't make sense that killing the faithful for their blood would help at all, given that they're killing the faithful for their blood. It seems more like the Grey Knights gave in to corruption than anything else. Self-evident, really.
Yeah, because a sect of the Sororitas engineering asteroids and Ork Waaghs! to hit Imperial population centers that they deem 'corrupt' when they're harboring Genestealer hybrids in their midst is just downright pure right?
Sororitas have been corrupted and used by outside forces before.
That's not what remotely happened here with the Grey Knights.
The whole story is meant to resemble some of the more 'archaic' rituals that you see crop up in some texts about how to deal with monsters and the unholy.
'Blood of a pure soul' is not unheard of in that regard. Even in Arthurian myths, these kinds of things being used as ritualistic talismans weren't uncommon for the paragons of virtue that was the romantic ideal of a knight doing battle with the force of evil.
Or do you think tying a lock of hair from a lady to a sword was done for fashion sense?
Kay, thanks for the correction. I'ma shut up now before I stick my foot in my mouth more.
Stomping on an all female army so you can violate the bodies and chunk bits of their flesh and blood on yourself does NOT sound paladin-ish AT ALL. If it read "The Sisters of Battle each cut their hand on a blade and anointed the Grey Knights to protect them in battle." I could see something like that. I don't exactly see how they weren't yanked up for a trial over their behavior.
SilverStar wrote:Stomping on an all female army so you can violate the bodies and chunk bits of their flesh and blood on yourself does NOT sound paladin-ish AT ALL. If it read "The Sisters of Battle each cut their hand on a blade and anointed the Grey Knights to protect them in battle." I could see something like that. I don't exactly see how they weren't yanked up for a trial over their behavior.
Once again:
There is nothing, at all, saying they "violated the bodies" and put "bits of their flesh and blood" all over themselves.
The only thing it says is "They turned their blades upon the surviving Sisters and mixed their blood with sacred oils to create a talisman to anoint their wargear and blades".
And again:
Grey Knights are not Paladins. They could not be further from the stereotypical idea of a Paladin if they tried.
I like that they had a concentration on the Grey Knights, as I really like them, but they should have had more about them being part of the Inquisition, that fact is not made as clear as it should have been.
Basically, there should have been an Inquisition Codex, which included the level of detail about the Grey Knights, had more of an emphasis on the organisation that is the Inquisition, included all the Ordos and their militant wings, which in turn includes the Deathwatch and whatever the militant wing of the Ordo Hereticus is if they have one.
Then they should have an Ecclesiarchy Codex which included everything to do with it, and a much more fleshed out emphasis on the Sisters of Battle.
On corruption. As far as I can tell, the Grey Knights are immune to the forceful corruption of the mind and soul, but not the body. They are also not immune to being indirectly TEMPTED by Chaos, by which I mean, they can independently choose to join Chaos without being forced, it explains Crowe and his Daemon Sword,
Brother Coa wrote:What future codexes will Matt Ward do? I already know about Black Templar one...
.......................................................... nooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo oooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO OOOOOOOoooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo OOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO OOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO OOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOooooooooo oooooooooooooOOOOOOOOOOOOooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo ooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOoooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooOO OOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOoooooooooooooooooooooooooooOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO OOOOOOOOoooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO OooooooooooooooooooooOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOooooooooooooooooooooooooo ooooooooooooooooooo No Not my black templars. Now its personnel! IF he gets in close to black templars and them over with a codex astrates and says they only contain 1,000 black templar marines. I will buy a ticket to England and punch him in the face and make him wear a baby which is stapled through him. If he says there are roughly an entire legion of them and make them a ultramarine gag. I'm fine with that. As the Black templar are awesome, and don't give a rats ass about the codex. Though I can say that my chapter lore is actually better in writting than Matt Wards Dragio and the Dreadknight lore.
Since when has Mat Ward been doing Black Templars? I heard that he was possibly doing Necrons, they have nearly no fluff, anything would be an improvement. It's hinted that Phil Kelly is doing Sisters of Battle, Crudance might be doing Tau. None of this is confirmed though, just speculation.
iproxtaco wrote:Since when has Mat Ward been doing Black Templars? I heard he was doing Necrons, they have nearly no fluff, anything would be an improvement. It's hinted that Phil Kelly is doing Sisters of Battle, Crudance might be doing Tau.
I want phil kelly for the Black Templars and Mat Ward to write info boxes.
Well there are some speculations that Mat Ward will do either Black Templars or Tau or Necrons. Nothing is confirmed dough, just wild speculations and all. But if he is really doing BT, I can imagine that he will do 2 things:
-Make up some fluff where BT lose great number of marines in some battles by the hand of who knows who and remain with only 1000 marines.
or:
- He will make them less angry and more "Ultramarine want to bee" chapter.
Or he will do something entirely different ( increase their numbers, make them more angry, add some strange rituals )...
Brother Coa wrote:Well there are some speculations that Mat Ward will do either Black Templars or Tau or Necrons.
Nothing is confirmed dough, just wild speculations and all.
But if he is really doing BT, I can imagine that he will do 2 things:
-Make up some fluff where BT lose great number of marines in some battles by the hand of who knows who and remain with only 1000 marines.
or:
- He will make them less angry and more "Ultramarine want to bee" chapter.
Or he will do something entirely different ( increase their numbers, make them more angry, add some strange rituals )...
In any way, Emperor save the Black Templars...
Agreed. We must assassinate matt ward by throwing ultramarines at him!
I don't want him to do Black Templars, I wouldn't risk him turning them into another Codex Chapter, which would be a travesty a thousand times worse than any problem people have with the Grey Knights codex.
iproxtaco wrote:I don't want him to do Black Templars, I wouldn't risk him turning them into another Codex Chapter, which would be a travesty a thousand times worse than any problem people have with the Grey Knights codex.
That would be hersey enough to make almost every single space marine player burn down the LGS in America and Europe. If GW does do that, they will have looting and the worst types of gamers will come and a new group will arise from the angry gamers. The Wagh Dakkivist group.... which specialize in photoshopping and buying nongw armies to play at tournaments and breaking rules and hacking GW's website for lulz
iproxtaco wrote:I don't want him to do Black Templars, I wouldn't risk him turning them into another Codex Chapter, which would be a travesty a thousand times worse than any problem people have with the Grey Knights codex.
That would be hersey enough to make almost every single space marine player burn down the LGS in America and Europe. If GW does do that, they will have looting and the worst types of gamers will come and a new group will arise from the angry gamers. The Wagh Dakkivist group.... which specialize in photoshopping and buying nongw armies to play at tournaments and breaking rules and hacking GW's website for lulz
iproxtaco wrote:I don't want him to do Black Templars, I wouldn't risk him turning them into another Codex Chapter, which would be a travesty a thousand times worse than any problem people have with the Grey Knights codex.
That would be hersey enough to make almost every single space marine player burn down the LGS in America and Europe. If GW does do that, they will have looting and the worst types of gamers will come and a new group will arise from the angry gamers. The Wagh Dakkivist group.... which specialize in photoshopping and buying nongw armies to play at tournaments and breaking rules and hacking GW's website for lulz
I don't think BT are that loved...
Well I would burn down my LGS if that would happen. not saying I would just saying metaphorically I would burn down GW's image in my mind.
And it would be the fourth codex ruined by Matt Ward.
Asherian Command wrote:The ultramarines were so awesome they did not have to get their minds wiped. The Grey Knights then followed the codex astrates because they are gakking gits.
Hmm, must have missed that part in my read-through (in my defense, the reading was accompanied by frantic consumption of copious amounts of whiskey). Man, this guy has the biggest rager for the Ultramarines of all time.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Brother Coa wrote:What future codexes will Matt Ward do?
I already know about Black Templar one...
Codex: Necron Marines is his next opus.
SilverStar wrote:Stomping on an all female army so you can violate the bodies and chunk bits of their flesh and blood on yourself does NOT sound paladin-ish AT ALL. If it read "The Sisters of Battle each cut their hand on a blade and anointed the Grey Knights to protect them in battle." I could see something like that. I don't exactly see how they weren't yanked up for a trial over their behavior.
Can you troll any harder? I don't think it's possible. And I know you're trolling, because no one except a troll would make such blatantly idiotic statements. There was no "stomping", no "violating", no "chunk bits of flesh and blood", and the forces of the Inquisition can't exactly be "yanked up for a trial."
So does Matt Ward let you sodomize him or are you just in love?
PS don't care what happens to BT.
Come back when you've done some growing up and can formulate an actual argument instead of poor attempts at trolling.
withershadow wrote:
Asherian Command wrote:The ultramarines were so awesome they did not have to get their minds wiped. The Grey Knights then followed the codex astrates because they are gakking gits.
Hmm, must have missed that part in my read-through (in my defense, the reading was accompanied by frantic consumption of copious amounts of whiskey). Man, this guy has the biggest rager for the Ultramarines of all time.
IIRC, there is no mention of the Ultramarines at all in the book. Cannot confirm this, though.
tgf wrote:I have this on very good authority, that the issue with Matt Ward is he has advanced Syphilis which actually causes brain deterioration. GW gave him a job out of pity and don't have the heart to tell him he sucks. They are simply waiting for him to die then they will correct his works. Matt Ward should not be hated he should be pitied.
Hrm, then what about Gav Thorpe and Alessio Cavatore or Jervis Johnson and Andy Hoare? Are they positively diagnosed with brain rot for writing two of the blandest books which have ever graced the world of warhammer 40k? Or perhaps Phil Kelly whose Space Wolves are, at least fluffwise, just barely more digestible than Ward's vanilla marines?
Seriously, one can say many bad things about Ward's fluff, some of them are even justified, but when it comes to writing balanced rules with very few useless unit entries he is actually quite good.
Agreed, for the most part. I like Andy Hoare though.
iproxtaco wrote:I don't want him to do Black Templars, I wouldn't risk him turning them into another Codex Chapter, which would be a travesty a thousand times worse than any problem people have with the Grey Knights codex.
That would be hersey enough to make almost every single space marine player burn down the LGS in America and Europe. If GW does do that, they will have looting and the worst types of gamers will come and a new group will arise from the angry gamers. The Wagh Dakkivist group.... which specialize in photoshopping and buying nongw armies to play at tournaments and breaking rules and hacking GW's website for lulz
I don't think BT are that loved...
Well I would burn down my LGS if that would happen. not saying I would just saying metaphorically I would burn down GW's image in my mind.
And it would be the fourth codex ruined by Matt Ward.
H.B.M.C. wrote:"Because it's from 4Chan" does not constitute a good enough reason to ignore what's written there.
Sure it does.
And Kurgash:
I play a Dark Angels Successor Chapter and a WIP Cadian Guard force.
I have no particular interest in Ward's books, outside of the fact that at some point I'd like to do a fluffy Raven Guard force(which means of course that Codex: Space Marines is necessary for it since it's the most flexible thing to work from), or any interest in Ward beyond the fact that he's a rules writer who seemingly understands the basics of 'balance' but needs to grasp 'fluff sensibility'.
I do think he's getting far too much flak, however, especially compared to the examples of Thorpe, Hoare, Cavatore, and Haines--who produced just as bad of fluff and rules as Ward is supposed to have produced, yet were seemingly given a pass.
H.B.M.C. wrote:"Because it's from 4Chan" does not constitute a good enough reason to ignore what's written there.
Sure it does.
And Kurgash:
I play a Dark Angels Successor Chapter and a WIP Cadian Guard force.
I have no particular interest in Ward's books, outside of the fact that at some point I'd like to do a fluffy Raven Guard force(which means of course that Codex: Space Marines is necessary for it since it's the most flexible thing to work from), or any interest in Ward beyond the fact that he's a rules writer who seemingly understands the basics of 'balance' but needs to grasp 'fluff sensibility'.
I do think he's getting far too much flak, however, especially compared to the examples of Thorpe, Hoare, Cavatore, and Haines--who produced just as bad of fluff and rules as Ward is supposed to have produced, yet were seemingly given a pass.
Actually was referring to that Grey Knight dude who plugs his ears and shouts when someone offers a decent rebuttal to his obvious fanboyish statements. Post time must have lagged prior.
H.B.M.C. wrote:"Because it's from 4Chan" does not constitute a good enough reason to ignore what's written there.
From my limited experiences with 4chan, though admittedly it's mostly been with Anon on one of their silly Internet forum raids, they're not exactly a shining beacon of truthiness. Can I say truthiness or did Mr. Colbert copyright it?
More specifically, my experiences with them has led me to believe that Anon at the least, if not all of 4chan, extensively uses hyperbolic rhetoric, often without factual basis, more often with intent to troll and disrupt.
I must admit that I don't know about the 40k stuff on 4chan, since I don't visit their site outside of links that people send me related to 40k stuff.
I post at /tg/ occasionally, and have never looked in the other sub-forums. I don't care what they are, and they are so wide and varied that it'd a bit like combining a 40K website with a cooking website with a car website with a local neighbourhood watch update website. In other words, each section has so little relation to the next that attempting to heap them all into one single classification is impossible.
Anonymous is the public face, the ones that get stuff done (for good or for ill). Most of 4Chan is happy to just be left alone by everyone else.
H.B.M.C. wrote:Anon is 4Chan.
Not all 4Chan is Anon.
I post at /tg/ occasionally, and have never looked in the other sub-forums. I don't care what they are, and they are so wide and varied that it'd a bit like combining a 40K website with a cooking website with a car website with a local neighbourhood watch update website. In other words, each section has so little relation to the next that attempting to heap them all into one single classification is impossible.
Anonymous is the public face, the ones that get stuff done (for good or for ill). Most of 4Chan is happy to just be left alone by everyone else.
Like a cave of monsters where most of them are all content being left to their own devices but there are a few that go and raid the villages and thus all of them get lumped together in one bad grouping!
H.B.M.C. wrote:Anon is 4Chan.
Not all 4Chan is Anon.
I post at /tg/ occasionally, and have never looked in the other sub-forums. I don't care what they are, and they are so wide and varied that it'd a bit like combining a 40K website with a cooking website with a car website with a local neighbourhood watch update website. In other words, each section has so little relation to the next that attempting to heap them all into one single classification is impossible.
Anonymous is the public face, the ones that get stuff done (for good or for ill). Most of 4Chan is happy to just be left alone by everyone else.
Well it would be nice if this Grey Knights fanboi could actually hear a reasoned argument from someone whose read the book and understands it. Not had one yet, but keep trying.
H.B.M.C. wrote:"Because it's from 4Chan" does not constitute a good enough reason to ignore what's written there.
Sure it does.
And Kurgash:
I play a Dark Angels Successor Chapter and a WIP Cadian Guard force.
I have no particular interest in Ward's books, outside of the fact that at some point I'd like to do a fluffy Raven Guard force(which means of course that Codex: Space Marines is necessary for it since it's the most flexible thing to work from), or any interest in Ward beyond the fact that he's a rules writer who seemingly understands the basics of 'balance' but needs to grasp 'fluff sensibility'.
I do think he's getting far too much flak, however, especially compared to the examples of Thorpe, Hoare, Cavatore, and Haines--who produced just as bad of fluff and rules as Ward is supposed to have produced, yet were seemingly given a pass.
Actually was referring to that Grey Knight dude who plugs his ears and shouts when someone offers a decent rebuttal to his obvious fanboyish statements. Post time must have lagged prior.
Outside of "Mat Ward is crap and so are all his codices and he should die a horrible death", only maybe one or two people have told us why they dislike him and his work.
I retract my fanboi remark, I actually have posted the parts I dislike in the codices, so I'm not blind to their problems.
iproxtaco wrote:Outside of "Mat Ward is crap and so are all his codices and he should die a horrible death", only maybe one or two people have told us why they dislike him and his work.
Not so much ignored as countered because they have it wrong, so very, very wrong.
For example, people exaggerating the bloodtide story, thinking that "mutilated" and "bathed" are actually in the passage, which they are not, nothing that even hints as such. That's wrong, hence why I argue with people about it and ignore the opinions of people who clearly have not read the source they are talking about.
iproxtaco wrote:Outside of "Mat Ward is crap and so are all his codices and he should die a horrible death", only maybe one or two people have told us why they dislike him and his work.
H.B.M.C. wrote:Actually plenty have, you're just ignoring them.
iproxtaco wrote:Not so much ignored as countered because they have it wrong, so very, very wrong.
This is why no one's responding to you guys anymore. You've created a scenario in your mind where no one is responding with what their legitimate concerns, but if they did, they'd be wrong. You win, I guess, Mat Ward is awesome.
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Kanluwen wrote:There is nothing, at all, saying they "violated the bodies" and put "bits of their flesh and blood" all over themselves.
The only thing it says is "They turned their blades upon the surviving Sisters and mixed their blood with sacred oils to create a talisman to anoint their wargear and blades".
Case in point. Here we have an argument that there is nothing at all saying they killed them so they could put their blood all over themselves. What they actually did was kill them so they could mix their blood with something else, and rub it all over themselves. Why can't you guys understand how clearly different this is?
Some people respond with their legitimate concerns, I respond to explain why this happens, and what parts are wrong. Despite this happening about 100 times over the past few months, people do not listen.
Mat Ward is certainly no Shakespeare, many of his stories are as Kanluwen said, maddeningly vague, Bloodtide being the prime example, but all his codices have been subjected to an amazing level of hyperbole and inflation. There are things in the codex that even I have problems with, Daemonhosts in a Grey Knight army? That's just stupid. The fact of the matter is that hating Mat Ward is popular, it's a internet fad and is frankly quite tiring and old.
iproxtaco wrote:Well it would be nice if this Grey Knights fanboi could actually hear a reasoned argument from someone whose read the book and understands it. Not had one yet, but keep trying.
One single description: A Vindicare costs 145 pts, his turbo penetrator shot will hit ~92% of the time, he rolls an average armour penetration roll of 17 (statistically he penetrates an armour 14 target ~ >75% of hits) then rolls on the damage table. this means that he has a ~70% chance of penetrating any armour 14 tank on a single shot. Against an armour 12 target this becomes ~85% of penetration. All that at AP1. This 145pt bastard can reliably one shot any vehicle barring a wave serpent or monolith.
Or alternatively he can pluck a ~50 pt Exarch, ~45pt Sergeant, ~100pt Ethereal or any other T3 Invulnerable-Save-less character out of the squad on 46% of his shots.
Against an inv. save toting target he can knock the save of them 92% of shots, then fire the turbo penetrator at them next turn.
Simply put, this 145pt elite choice can reliably destroy character saving wargear, knock out weak characters and sergeants, or 1 SHOT LAND RAIDERS, FIRE PRISMS, HAMMERHEADS, RAVAGERS, LEMAN RUSSES, IRONCLADS I think you get the picture. That little black bastard can make his points back in a lucky turn, or two rather average ones. Good luck getting him back for it though, Vindicares have stealth, 4+ Inv. and FNP.
Then there's the Callidus, instantly deals D6 S4 AP2 hits. That equates to ~2.33 dead eldar equivalents (~81 pts of Dark Reapers, which is exactly where she'll appear). She then shoots a S8 AP1 template Pistol at whoever's left. If you shoot back, she has a 4+ inv., FNP and stealth. Assault isn't a real option either, as she has 5 S4 Power weapon instant death attacks at I7.
What cost could this unit (capable of totally slaughtering 1 elite unit before aiming for more) be? 145 pts. if she starts on a Dark Reapers unit (which will be prime target if you play eldar like me) she can reliably kill all 5 for a total of 237 pts with no fear of being killed before she hits. NO CHANCE OF KILLING HER BEFORE SHE GETS YOUR HEAVY SUPPORT OR ELITE UNIT OF JOY.
Hmmm. I wonder why everyone hates Matt Ward indeed...
Kanluwen wrote:It says nothing about them "rubbing it all over themselves".
Anointing is usually done to a specific part of the body or in a small amount.
We also don't actually know that they killed the Sisters.
The entry is maddeningly vague and any conclusion can be drawn.
Yes, the anointing could have been as simple as sprinkling a few drops on their bare heads while chanting gibberish.
We can be pretty damn sure they killed them though. First, "turn their blades on" is a pretty clear euphemism for "taking care of them", plus it wouldn't make sense for them to not kill them right then when they would have to kill them afterwards. The Sisters were doomed the moment Chaos broke loose on that planet.
Matt Ward does suck but I hope he does my next codex so I can have horney necrons with jetbike tomb spyders that crap out cluster bombs of s10 ap1 goodness, and everything can be named mcroboty or ctany.
Oh and he should be run over by one of those slow moving asphalt compactors feet first.
iproxtaco wrote:What exactly was so bad about fantasy Daemons anyway? I played Ogre Kingdoms a while ago, before the Army Book for Daemons of Chaos came out.
They are so game-breakingly good that WHFB is officially broken. Only a new edition could fix it. Maybe.
There has been one. 8th edition was released a while after Daemons of Chaos. I have heard that this fixed it mostly, but I wondered what was specifically wrong with it. I'm not debating whether it did or didn't.
infinite_array wrote:Dear God-Emperor. 10 pages?! How did this topic get 10 pages?!
Defensive fan-boi, lots of mini-hijacks and fantasy should just be called lizardman vampire power scroll showdown. There is really no other valid builds.
Offensive Trolls and morons, people with common misconceptions about various parts, off-topic arguments, partly fuelled by myself having to argue with people over small things and earning myself an unfavourable label.
His over saturation of Ultramarine favoritism in the 5th ed book, retconning several previously established pieces of fluff to better suit his needs and how he sees fit, lack of creativity when it comes to naming weapons and wargear, Kelly is guilty of that too btw, overall one upping the last codices he made with even more over the top options, units and several rules that just leave you scratching your head at first glance and require to be broken down bit by bit and thoroughly explained to people who have a different view on it *see Descent of angels arguments when BA came on the scene* and most of all uncharacteristic team ups by said army of book and a random faction to take down another faction.
Ultramarines and Tau fighting, Necrons wake up, both team up and defeat the Necrons, Ultramarines let the Tau escape before destroying the world.
Blood Angels and Necrons fighting, Tyranids come. Both team up to defeat the Tyranids. Blood Angels leave the Necrons alone and go their separate ways as do the Necrons.
Really it's his lack of continuity that bugs me the most. Does he want the Space Marines to be ultimate badass like their days of old or tolerant of all races in their new incarnation.
iproxtaco wrote:Offensive Trolls and morons, people with common misconceptions about various parts,
=iproxtaco
Missed the part where I said I was partly responsible and called myself a fanboi did yah? Thanks for calling me a moron, not that I've ever insulted you ever, and if I'm in a minority, how are my apparent misconceptions "common"?
You are got to be kidding with me... 
...
not saying I would just saying metaphorically I would burn down 
