Lord knows I've tried. I've bought some models and painted them up, got a slew of the books, which I have poured over. I haven't managed to pick up a game but, to be honest, I don't really even want to. I recognize they're a good company with some cool ideas. But most of their miniatures look goofy to me. GW doesn't seem to have a great deal of respect for you and me and the rest of its customers. But if you don't really like PP's stuff, like I don't, then PP is not really an alternative.

There's been a lot of this sentiment buzzing around the threads criticizing GW so I wanted to post this here so there is a place where it's on-topic.

This isn't flamebaiting, folks. I'm not saying you can't like it or that it's objectively horrible. People who agree with the above, please make sure to stay polite.

***Also, I changed the thread title since that is where this heading anyhow.

***As per the suggestion of CaptainJack, I've changed the title of this thread again.

Here's the list so far w/links.

- PP (Warmachine, Hordes, Monsterpocalypse)
- Infinity (sci-fi skirmish)
- Malifaux (horror/steampunk skirmish)
- MERCS (sci-fi skirmish)
- Rezolution (sci-fi skirmish)
- Battletech
- Heavy Gear
- Urban War/Metropolis (sci-fi skirmish/army)
- Cutlass! (fantasy pirate skirmish)
- Hisroricals (including FoW)
- Secrets of the Third Reich (alternate WW2 skirmish?)
- Incursion (alternate WW2 skirmish)
- DUST Tactics (alternate WW2 skirmish)
- Firestorm Armada, Uncharted Seas, Dystopian Wars
- Leviathans (airships)
- Pulp City (comic-type skirmish)
- Wargods (WHFB-esque)
- Freebooter's Fate (skirmish)
- Brushfire (anthropomorphic animal skirmish)
- Nuclear Renaissance (skirmish?)
- Anima Tactics (anime skirmish)
- AE: WWII, AE: Bounty (alternate WW2 and sci-fi skirmish)
- Dark Age (sci-fi skirmish)
- Alkemy (fantasy [Asian] skirmish)
- CAV (Battletech-esque)
- Helldorado (fantasy/horror skirmish)
- Kings of War (WHFB-esque)
- SphereWars (skirmish? Spanish only)
- Nemesis (skirmish? Spanish only)
- Ron & Bones (pirate skirmish?)
- Warlands (post-apoc vehicles)
- Consortium (sci-fi skirmish)
- Spinespur (horror skirmish, some models NSFW)
- Twilight (fantasy skirmish)
- Bushido (fantasy [Asian] skirmish)

I am going to give it a whirl when my rulebook arrives but I am not sure what to expect. I guess for me its the familiar versus the unknown. As a gamer, I feel comfortable on safe, known and recognisable ground. PP is a big leap out into the wider world for me.

I'm not sure about womething: is it the miniatures that are turning you off, or the rules too?

Personally, I find their rules delightful, a breath of fresh air compared to the... stuff, GW foists on its players.

The models, however, I will admit are not exactly what I am looking for. But, then I look at GW's model lines, and with the notable exception of the Dark Eldar (and to a lesser extent, the Tau), I find GW's models pretty wretched as well. Oh, if only I could play with Warmachine's rules and Infinity's magnificent models!

I tried to get into Warmachine and Hordes both.

I have most of the early rulebooks(a limited edition of Apotheosis, no less) and had bought a couple of warbands.

But it just was...'meh'.

Far more excited about Infinity and was far more excited about Starship Troopers when it was supposedly doing well.

I have to confess the model aesthetic isn't particularly to my taste either but I am prepared to forgo that in the case of a good game.

Tastes are acquired. I don't think anyone KNEW they liked grimdark
until they realized there was this whole universe in which they could
play games. Same with Warmachine. I didn't know I wanted to
play games in the iron kingdoms' steam and fury powered fantasy
until I was sucked into the gameplay itself.

I had that issue when i started, but some of the models have grown on me.

If you dont mind me asking, what army did you start with ?

I play Legion and the infantry look Goofy but the warbeasts look amazing.

Looking at Retrubution, Cryx, the new Cygnar models and they all look rather nice in comparison to the infantry.

There are three components:

(1) Rules: GW's rules are serviceable and even preferable for someone like me, for whom tournament play with air-tight rulings is not a big deal. I feel like PP offers some very cool ideas but I feel the "combos" get even more cookie-cutter than 40k lists. I'm ambivalent about this issue, really.

(2) Models: I love (not like) the Citadel ranges on balance. By contrast, very few of PP's models do anything for me. I have never even been able to settle on collecting any faction over another. (The starter pack I bought was Skorne.)

(3) The Fluff: In my mind, GW wins hands down. It's not just a matter of having been around longer, either. The tone of the Iron Kingdoms just isn't to my taste as of yet.

malfred wrote:Tastes are acquired. I don't think anyone KNEW they liked grimdark
until they realized there was this whole universe in which they could
play games.

Honestly?
I liked the atmosphere of 40k and the models before I really 'got into it'. Warmachine I tried to play the game first in spite of not liking the setting/models that much.

Same with Warmachine. I didn't know I wanted to
play games in the iron kingdoms' steam and fury powered fantasy
until I was sucked into the gameplay itself.

I think we're at opposing ends.

But I dunno.

@malfred: Chicken or the egg. It varies from person to person. Nothing about PP's stuff makes me excited to play. In miniatures wargaming, you've got to have that first -- and that can mean having an enthusiastic buddy with two armies, of course. I have no such enthusiastic buddy with respect to Warmahordes. :(

I wanted to play 40k, but I liked the models more than the
gameplay. Grimdark just hasn't been for me.

Manchu wrote:@malfred: Chicken or the egg. It varies from person to person. Nothing about PP's stuff makes me excited to play. In miniatures wargaming, you've got to have that first -- and that can mean having an enthusiastic buddy with two armies, of course. I have no such enthusiastic buddy with respect to Warmahordes. :(

GW/40K is a bit of a self-fulfilling prophecy really. It gets the market share because it has the market share. 40K is so ubiquitous that invariably, most young gamers first exposure to wargaming is GW product and early lessons tend to stick.

Aesthetics are everything as they ARE immersion.

To people who liked the Warhammer universe; Privateer Press doesn't fit. A good example of mine is comparing both GW's Inquisition to Warmachine's Protectorate of Menoth. I play Inquisition in 40k. Thats the kind of 'style' I like. Menoth doesn't appeal to me; because it doesn't have that fearsome religious image. It just looks like Kingdom Hearts to me.

If I HAD to play; I'd have to play; The Retribution of Scyrah is the only thing I could possibly even consider to choose; and even then thats cause they look like a Nobody from Kingdom Hearts.

Rules, fluff are dime a dozen; but the models are what matters. I'm sticking with GW till I find someone that has a similar army; but is just as gritty as well.

Mr Hyena wrote:Aesthetics are everything as they ARE immersion.

To people who liked the Warhammer universe; Privateer Press doesn't fit. A good example of mine is comparing both GW's Inquisition to Warmachine's Protectorate of Menoth. I play Inquisition in 40k. Thats the kind of 'style' I like. Menoth doesn't appeal to me; because it doesn't have that fearsome religious image. It just looks like Kingdom Hearts.

If I HAD to play; I'd have to play; The Retribution of Scyrah is the only thing I could possibly even consider to choose; and even then thats cause they look like a Nobody from Kingdom Hearts.

Rules, fluff are dime a dozen; but the models are what matters.

In your opinion.

Gaming is such a multi-faceted experience that everyone has a different take on what matters for them. For some, modelling is key; others are only interested in competitive play.

Its sort of like people that compare every MMO to WoW. Even if something is better in many ways, or even better in every way- theyre not going to like it.

When you get down to it- many of GW's miniatures look goofy. Heck, look at where they started. RT and 2nd ed stuff is incredibly goofy. Their sculpting and casting techniques have evolved over 20 some years.

PP has been at it about half that long, and their new sculpts show significant improvement over their previous ones. Detail and proportion has improved, and in most cases they maintain a sense of cohesiveness amongst the several factions. They made the move, before GW, to use resin for many of their larger kits, possibly showing GW that it was/is possible to do resin on a commercial scale.

It seems kind of 'cart before horse' to put on the full dislike without even playing a game. But, that happens in life, no one says anything about someone who hates a certain type of car without ever having driven it Unless of course its some huge gas guzzler or lemon (Im looking at you GW!)

Its too bad you cant get into it, but at least theres some other options out there like Malifaux and Infinity that are also gaining alot of momentum and thier sculpts are very good- and of a differing style from most of the PP stuff ^_^

I've not had a chance to play WH but the mini's a are turn off. They just remind me of all of the clunky posed "red period" from WD/2nd Ed 40K.

I have bought the rules and played the games. One thing no one really mentions is how similar they are to GW.

New edition every four years, pretty pricy books for not a lot of content, Unbalanced issues, modular plastic kist for 50+ dollars, etc etc etc

To me it is neither a step down or up from GW just a lateral shift to another game that has different colors.

What really turns me off is the blandness of the IP. I can't really identify with the villans and the good guys aren't really that heroic. Just kinda middle of the line story akin ot what disney would come up with...generic.

My Problems with PP are as follows:

Minis: Calling them WOW knock offs is cruel and overly simplistic but does everything have to have a tiny waist and Huge shoulders? Also why is every scrap of armour filligreed and engraved to within an inch of it's life? Even The 'Oruboros' faction of woodland creatures has ridculously over ornate armour.

Conversions?: It seems more of a boardgame in this regard.

Universe: It seems pretty bland, with each faction/culture being an overly obvious Analogue. I mean the 40k imperium is space Rome right? Wrong, it has a huge variety of sources and is in someways pretty unique. Whereas PP's Khardovia.....

I still might just buy the rulebook as i have heard amazing things about the game.

Well- to further peoples enjoyment of thier preferred games...

For those of you with PP stuff you dont like or want- I have a bunch of GW I dont want! Id be happy to trade for some more goofy looking Warmachine stuff :p

Maybe rather than expressing dislike for something- lets just be happy that there are viable alternatives these days. AND not all of them involve buying from some extortionate overbearing company that tells us how to enjoy thier product, then charges a premium for that 'privilege'. And then they have the cheek to not even offer us a cup o' tea with that buggering!

Mistress of minis wrote:
Maybe rather than expressing dislike for something- lets just be happy that there are viable alternatives these days. AND not all of them involve buying from some extortionate overbearing company that tells us how to enjoy thier product, then charges a premium for that 'privilege'. And then they have the cheek to not even offer us a cup o' tea with that buggering!

I echo this emotion. Competition, whether you like it or not, is healthy for the community, the industry as a whole and for the individual companies concerned.

One thing that turns me off from PP is....the prices. People slag GW for being expensive, but PP will charge you $35-45 for 6 metal models.

I have to agree with the OP, Iäm waiting for the rule book to turn up....but so far, the models haven't "grabbed" me. They just look so, I don't know, clumbsy.....

The only reason I'm looking at Warmachine (as opposed to focusing 100% on Infinity and MERCS) is because I'm hoping to jump into a "mass market" game that I can throw down with new players in various locations....this isn't currently the case with MERCS and Infinity, so those games need promoting.

But, if I'm really honest (may my tongue burn for saying this) GW miniatures are nicer than PP....oh god help me, why....but it's true. :(

Not a fan of PP miniatures, haven't seen the rules.

Also, the prices don't seem much if any better than GW (per model, that is, I seem to remember reading you need less to play).

Infinity, however, has grabbed my attention and will be my next project...

Not to get too off-topic, but I think Malifaux stuff is even uglier than PP's worst models. I am totally perplexed whenever I hear people comment about how cool they are. The Infinity lines look decent but I think you'd have to be quite a painter to get decent mileage out of them. So neither of them are really alternatives to GW for me, just like PP is not. I do like some of UrbanMammoth's miniatures. They're not really a "whole package" like GW at the moment, however.

I'd also dispute that PP's models have shown significant improvement over time. In my eyes, they're very hit or miss.

Manchu wrote:Not to get too off-topic, but I think Malifaux stuff is even uglier than PP's worst models.

Thank you! Thank you! Thank you! Finally someone else says this.

First she says

Maybe rather than expressing dislike for something- lets just be happy that there are viable alternatives these days.

And then she says:

AND not all of them involve buying from some extortionate overbearing company that tells us how to enjoy thier product, then charges a premium for that 'privilege'. And then they have the cheek to not even offer us a cup o' tea with that buggering!

In all honesty, PP gets a boost because many (of course not all) of their diehard fans are not only very vocal about how awesome Warmahordes is; they're also very, very vocal about how gakky GW is. Conversely, people who love GW do not as a necessity mention how gakky PP is every time they bring up their fondness for GW.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Perkustin wrote:

Manchu wrote:Not to get too off-topic, but I think Malifaux stuff is even uglier than PP's worst models.

Thank you! Thank you! Thank you! Finally someone else says this.

Glad to see it wasn't just me awkwardly nodding in conversations about Malifaux!

Over a year ago, I made the switch from 40k to Warmahordes, as I feel it's very unhealthy to support a company like GW, but found that PP isn't really the answer. It seems to me that everything they do piggy backing a little off of GW, and it leaves a bad taste in my mouth. Like their entire marketing strategy was, "let's add just a dash of Warhammer to our systems to try and lure people away from the successful company" and I think as each new release comes out Warmahordes becomes closer to 40k. Hell,l even the names and logos are similar.

Philosophical reasons aside, their models are hit or miss, there's very little variety in the ruleset (lets face it, every game is a Caster Kill scenario), and the fluff is terrible. Why the hell would you name one of your factions Circle Orboros? I believe the word you're looking for is Ouroboros.

Recently I've shifted all of my attention toward Malifaux. Cheaper game all around, beautiful sculpts, cool fluff, and an absolutely insane amount of game play depth in one of the most elegant rule systems I've ever encountered.

Manchu wrote:Not to get too off-topic, but I think Malifaux stuff is even uglier than PP's worst models. I am totally perplexed whenever I hear people comment about how cool they are. The Infinity lines look decent but I think you'd have to be quite a painter to get decent mileage out of them. So neither of them are really alternatives to GW for me, just like PP is not. I do like some of UrbanMammoth's miniatures. They're not really a "whole package" like GW at the moment, however.

I'd also dispute that PP's models have shown significant improvement over time. In my eyes, they're very hit or miss.

Malifaux has some really nice models that I happen to like a lot. However,
the world is steeped in horror, so a lot of their stuff looks unlike what you'd
expect your "heroes" to look like.

No, I'm not saying they aren't heroic-looking. I'm saying I think they are poorly sculpted models.

As a Warmahordes player myself, all I can say is: that's fine.

Malifaux typically has very standard proportions, I can see that turning some people off, but I prefer it. I don't really see why every WM/H model needs to have giant hands and a tiny head.

I tried Warmachine way back before they put Hordes out. I didn't like the game at all.

1) The models (I tried the Cryx faction because I generally prefer the undead and chaosy factions.) They were a miserable experience putting together.

2) The game system. It really just felt like I was playing Magic the Gathering with a few models to push around.

3) I liked that the game was all about the Warjacks, until it started being "all about the warjacks that were strictly inferior to every new infaqntry unit that came down the pipe."

4) The models have gotten dumber looking as time went on.

5) Most of all: The local players were all toolbags. I don't play for WAAC gaming. Never have, never will. These guys were the absolute definition of "that guy". I also didn't appreciate the "oh, you play GW. You're Bad" mentality that comes from the Warmachine camp. Ok. That's nice. I'm bad for liking a bad game/company. Honestly, I'd rather be associated with a bad game, than be associated with terrible people.

themocaw wrote:As a Warmahordes player myself, all I can say is: that's fine.

Er, thanks for your approval?

Yeah, I realize it's fine for people to have different opinions. That's kind of the point of this thread. There are a ton of threads about how awful GW is right now and a lot of folks are saying PP is a great alternative. Maybe as a company they are -- I dunno, really. At least they tell us what's coming up. Then again, I haven't seen any "battlejacks" sold by CHS yet. But the point is that PP, Malifaux, and Infinity (et alia) aren't really alternatives at all for some of us.

Manchu wrote:

themocaw wrote:As a Warmahordes player myself, all I can say is: that's fine.

Er, thanks for your approval?

You're welcome.

Seriously, though: if you're approaching Warmachine with the expectations that you'll get the same things out of it as 40k, you're doing it wrong. The game encourages, nay, idealizes dirty tricks and overpowered combinations. I think of 40k as a game of baseball and Warmahordes as more like playing hockey in sudden death overtime. It's kinda facetious to think that since you like baseball, you'll also enjoy hockey.

I guess what i'm trying to say is: I agree with you, sir.

@themocaw: Yeah, that's exactly the point. Just because you are frustrated with GW you can't expect to switch over to PP and suddenly be satisfied.

Not to derail your thread Manchu,but one of Kans comments got me thinking...
Whatever became of the Starship Troopers game?...don't see a great deal of info on it.

Mongoose has discontinued it altogether. I think that was in 2008.

I know what you mean Manchu, but if you leave GW you don't have to go with Warmahordes, Malifaux or one of the other major games.

I've decided i've had enough of GW but I don't enjoy games that make you play with named characters (I feel it restricts what fluff I can create which is a big part fo me) so a lot of the obvious non GW games are out. However with a bit of searching I've found lots of suitable games. It may be harder to find but there will be a game that is what your looking for.

I think that the initial waves of Warmachine looked the best.

In the early days it seemed that the game might really focus on the whole "steampunk" vibe and play it up. However as more and more releases have taken place this has been dilluted by things like the Retribution and the whole of Hordes, etc.

I'd like more of a focus on gears and boilers and steam power, etc. but the vision for the Ik has slowly moved away from that in many ways, and my infatuation with the game has waned in relation...

FITZZ wrote: Not to derail your thread Manchu,but one of Kans comments got me thinking...
Whatever became of the Starship Troopers game?...don't see a great deal of info on it.

Mongoose dropped it (along with allot of other things) when they found that they couldn't afford to put out their umpteenth miniature war game that didn't really sell as well as they thought it would.

@4M2A: Would you mind listing a few of the games you've found? (Sharing that kind of thing is one of the best aspects of Dakka, I feel.)

And just to be clear I am not done with GW.

Manchu wrote:Lord knows I've tried. I've bought some models and painted them up, got a slew of the books, which I have poured over. I haven't managed to pick up a game but, to be honest, I don't really even want to. I recognize they're a good company with some cool ideas. But most of their miniatures look goofy to me. GW doesn't seem to have a great deal of respect for you and me and the rest of its customers. But if you don't really like PP's stuff, like I don't, then PP is not really an alternative.

There's been a lot of this sentiment buzzing around the threads criticizing GW so I wanted to post this here so there is a place where it's on-topic.

This isn't flamebaiting, folks. I'm not saying you can't like it or that it's objectively horrible. People who agree with the above, please make sure to stay polite.

To each their own.

notprop wrote:

FITZZ wrote: Not to derail your thread Manchu,but one of Kans comments got me thinking...
Whatever became of the Starship Troopers game?...don't see a great deal of info on it.

Mongoose dropped it (along with allot of other things) when they found that they couldn't afford to put out their umpteenth miniature war game that didn't really sell as well as they thought it would.

Ah..ok,but the minis and the system (as it were) still exist I assume.

Well, I've been looking for the right game for a while so the list of maybes is quite long. What sort of thing are you after? If you can come up with a list of things that attract you to a game I can probably suggest something.

I think GW models are overall amazing/outstanding/awesome. Do I like their price? Not really, but now that I'm older and am in my career I can pay for my hobby. I just don't have the time like I did when I was a teen to dedicate to it.

I think the rules for GW games are just fine (and I play in a lot of tournaments too).

Manchu wrote:Yeah, I realize it's fine for people to have different opinions. That's kind of the point of this thread. There are a ton of threads about how awful GW is right now and a lot of folks are saying PP is a great alternative. Maybe as a company they are -- I dunno, really. At least they tell us what's coming up. Then again, I haven't seen any "battlejacks" sold by CHS yet. But the point is that PP, Malifaux, and Infinity (et alia) aren't really alternatives at all for some of us.

People are complaining about the GW price increases and lack of sales to Oceania...so you started a thread to bash Privateer Press?

If you're unhappy with GW, then look around for something else. People have suggested alternatives: PP, Malifaux, Mantic, Flames of War, they all have their pros and cons. But if you're interested in a popular game that is widely available, Warmachine & Hordes and FoW seem to be the primary alternatives at the moment.

Your options are: suck it up and keep dealing with GW's (to some) distasteful actions, switch to another game, or quit the hobby.

biccat wrote:
People are complaining about the GW price increases and lack of sales to Oceania...so you started a thread to bash Privateer Press?

To be fair, I think the real thrust of the thread was to give Mr Hyena an arena to vent his considerable spleen....

Some of the models are a bit off. Swords in particular come off looking rather "Nerf-y" for lack of a better term.

I do like the overall art style in the books quite a bit, It'd be great if it carried through to some of the models more. That said, they really aren't that horrible. GW pieces are better quality though, no question.

I also really like the greater diversity in the characters. I'm actually impressed by the level of inclusion women are given, and the relative diversity of roles they're given. The game still suffers far too much from Boob Armor, Chainmail Miniskirts and Combat Hells. Still, it's a step up from GW at the very least.


I find the gameplay to be a bit more elegant, and the rules to be better and more consistently written. I dislike the inflexibility and lack of customization in how armies are put together, but it's a relatively minor complaint.

I'll probably be playing it in addition to 40k, but not in place of it.

I have to agree with this thread whole heartedly, I have looked at WarmaHordes as an alternative but every time I have tried I get stuck on the aesthetics. The minis just don't do it for me at all, any of them. Malifaux isn't so bad, there are a handfull of minis I would consider buying but again not enough for me to go steaming into the system.

Infinity looks kinda pretty, but the problem I have is that I like the feel of the GW universes. Like a smelly old dog that you can't fail to have good feelings for because of the special memories shared. I think I am going to put more effort into the 15mm WW2 games that I have tonnes of minis floating around for. Studio Mcvey are getting to the point where you could use their minis for small scraps too.

I do know that I'm going to play quite a bit of Cutlass by Black Scorpion, as I nearly have my Ork crew ready to ply the seas and relieve unfortunates of their treasures!

So on reflection? PP isn't much cheaper per mini, and I don't like them. Malifaux and Infinity have similar problems, which leaves me buying less GW minis (spending level will drop some as well as the price rise hurt).

Rogue Trader/ Necromunda style games with minis from Heresy/Hasslefree/Black Scorpion are going to recieve the majority of my hard earned, while my GW stuff will get some bits and bobs as I feel to round out armies in use. PP isn't going to get anything from me still, though at some point they might bring stuff out to tempt.

biccat wrote:People are complaining about the GW price increases and lack of sales to Oceania...so you started a thread to bash Privateer Press?

Did you read the OP? No? Okay, here it is again: a lot of folks are claiming they will quit GW in favor of PP but PP is not actually a viable alternative to GW for everyone.

I'm in agreement...don't like the models, don't like the universe, don't like the rules.



Someone find me a venture capitalist, and I'll do a mainstream game with good looking mini's, good rules, and a national tournament system.

4M2A wrote:What sort of thing are you after? If you can come up with a list of things that attract you to a game I can probably suggest something.

Well, I really like the idea and aesthetic of Necromunda. So a kind of cyberpunk skirmish game? But the Infinity look is too anime for me, if you understand what I mean. That's what I dig about Urban War/Metropolis. Again, I'm nowhere near to dropping GW stuff. But I'm always on the look out for what's out there. Like I said, that's one thing I really love about Dakka.

Manchu

I think you are being unfair with Infinity, all your other points have me nodding in agreement.

Yes, Infinity models are works of art, and of course, having the skill to paint to a high level is always going to be a benefit, but I feel you're missing the point (of Infinity).

Do you like the rules? Do you like the game play? Do you like the fluff? These are the points that really matter, not how well you can paint.

Take any game you like, the miniatures will always look better if you can paint like Angel Giraldez, the same can be said for GW miniatures.....however, has this been a factor stopping you from playing WH40K (assuming you can't paint like the Angel!)

Captain Jack wrote: Studio Mcvey are getting to the point where you could use their minis for small scraps too.

YES. This is definitely on my radar.

@ Manchu: Check out Dark Age. Its marginally "grim dark" post-apo skirmish. And the new minis are perdy.

Frankly, to each their own. I never got the love of 40K as a game past 2nd ed. Love the IP, think some of the models are awesome, but 4th and 5th just do nothing for me in terms of rules.

Privateer's games have always been quite a bit tighter and that's what I like. I'm not playing the game for immersion nor the universe and I don't care about model/unit customization. I think the minis look great and I like the rules. Works for me, but it doesn't mean I need to disparage someone who disagrees.

Delephont wrote:I think you are being unfair with Infinity, all your other points have me nodding in agreement.

Yeah, sorry for being unclear. I don't like the fluff at all. And fluff is big for me, whereas it can be meaningless for others. The videos I've watched for Infinity and the battle reports that I've read are what made me look into it, as the gameplay seemed pretty cool. So: the models seem objectively well sculpted to me (mostly) but I still don't really like them. Does that make sense? I mean, I can tell they are cool but they just aren't exciting to me.

General Hobbs wrote:
I'm in agreement...don't like the models, don't like the universe, don't like the rules.



Someone find me a venture capitalist, and I'll do a mainstream game with good looking mini's, good rules, and a national tournament system.

Had me until "tournament"

If you want ubber cool painted Infinity models you can send them away for special pro treatment. Same as with any wargame figures.

The aesthetic point applies to any game or range of models.

Personally I think the Warmachine models look like horrible. That's just my opinion. There are tons of people who love them and good luck to them. Other people hate the GiTS aesthetic of Infinity. I like it.

We are lucky there is such a wide variety of models available.

You don't have to play any set of rules with the "official" figures.

I can't help but feel there's a lot of chest thumping in this thread. If you don't like PP, then don't go to it, there's tons of other options. Just look at the news and rumors thread and all the products from the various companies there.

Manchu wrote:

Delephont wrote:I think you are being unfair with Infinity, all your other points have me nodding in agreement.

Yeah, sorry for being unclear. I don't like the fluff at all. And fluff is big for me, whereas it can be meaningless for others. The videos I've watched for Infinity and the battle reports that I've read are what made me look into it, as the gameplay seemed pretty cool. So: the models seem objectively well sculpted to me (mostly) but I still don't really like them. Does that make sense? I mean, I can tell they are cool but they just aren't exciting to me.

Thats fair enough. The fluff is about as far removed from Grim-Dark as you can get, and that is simply not going to be to everyones liking.

Have you considered MERCS? Although, if you like army building then this might not be the game for you.....and their fluff is there, but nothing as epic as WH40K or Infinity at this stage.....but on the plus side, it's early days, so this is the chance to jump onboard with a new gaming system and help shape it in a way you could never do with GW. The guys from MERCS are active on their own forums, and you can submit ideas to them for consideration.....it's a good vibe right now.

www.mercsminis.com

Manchu wrote:

themocaw wrote:As a Warmahordes player myself, all I can say is: that's fine.

Er, thanks for your approval?

Yeah, I realize it's fine for people to have different opinions. That's kind of the point of this thread. There are a ton of threads about how awful GW is right now and a lot of folks are saying PP is a great alternative. Maybe as a company they are -- I dunno, really. At least they tell us what's coming up. Then again, I haven't seen any "battlejacks" sold by CHS yet. But the point is that PP, Malifaux, and Infinity (et alia) aren't really alternatives at all for some of us.

I cannot get into Warmachine or Hordes either and Infinity is something I am trying to sneak up on an open mind with.
I am currently enjoying VSF and the GASLIGHT rules offer something nice to play. Anything where a narrative is important is cool by me as well which is why I am being lured by VBCW.

DUST and SOTR is always trying to lull me with siren calls.

I'm also looking at 15mm and smaller to enable me satisfy my urges for massed battles.

http://www.wargamevault.com/ Is my current mecca just for the fact that if I download something and its total pap, I haven't really lost anything.

The best thing is that if you stray of the beaten path for 28mm sci fi rules, your existing GW minis will always have a table to fight on. A power armoured sci fi trooper is a power armoured sci fi trooper but with different skills depending where you rock up to.

There really is something for everyone out there and if that something is 40k or Fantasy battle then, good.

Kilkrazy wrote:You don't have to play any set of rules with the "official" figures.

A truer thing has never been said. I will put my hands up say that I use all sorts of counts as, as long as your gaming group is used to this all is good. The group that I play within positively expects it.

Its time to make a new wargame. I can feel it.

J_Gobbo

The key difference between the two is that there is no compulsion to use PP only figures. My Cryx forces contain a Rackham Troll, Heresy Wormherders, a pile of bits from a dozen manufacturers, and characterful extras from Hell-Dorado. My nascent Skorne are already sprouting Perry Twins Feudal Samurai bits. Frankly, so long as your opponent knows what it is you're fielding, you are not required to use PP figures. Hell, if it fits the bill, use GW figures.

Kilkrazy wrote:We are lucky there is such a wide variety of models available.

Yeah, it's a great time for tabletop (wargaming and RPGs) in all reality.

Surtur wrote:I can't help but feel there's a lot of chest thumping in this thread

Not sure what this is supposed to mean.

Delephont wrote:Have you considered MERCS?

Yep. I pay pretty close attention to the News & Rumors section (even before reading Surtur's advice) and have a pretty good sense of what's out there - at least, if the news makes it to Dakka. I got a chance to look at a MERCS book at my FLGS, along with the Infinity book. To be honest, I had gone to the FLGS to pick them both up and wound up leaving them both on the shelf. As a matter of fact, I bought the new O&G and TK hardbacks instead! I've been reading the threads on both systems around here, however. Maybe someday?

Just to expand on Mongoose's problems; They created a game of modern warfare (Battlefiled: Evolution IIRC) at about the same time, with pre-painted plastic minis. Photos of the minis were released showing the plastics had very good paintjobs. Unfortunately, those were just the masters. The painters in China couldn't supply that level of quality, and many people were incredibly disappointed when they received their first minis in the mail. This ultimately hurt Mongoose's reputation for promising higher quality than they could deliver.

I think the loss of goodwill carried over to their other product lines. People thought they were supporting a real challenger to GW. When they found out Mongoose was equaly capable of making mistakes they deserted them to wait for the next GW-killer.

I'm not a big fan of the Mailfaux minis; a buddy of mine bought some for me because he was excited about the game, but I really had a tough time choosing because I find their sculpting quality to be below par. On the plus side, you only need ~five minis, and the game was fun. The games are short, and strategies are determined by the group you purchase. They do have a great scenarios though, where each side also gets hidden goals (ie. assassinate specific model, grab X resources).

I don't see it as a replacement for 40k though, more of a fun side diversion.

I've never been excited about PP, for the same reasons posted earlier by others. I don't like the clunky aethetic, and the armies don't seem to invite conversions. I don't see armies that are "personalized", if that makes sense. I like steam-punk, but that seems to have been lost over the years.

you're never going to get your 40k fix playing Warmachine

or any other game for that matter.

and forcing the issue is a disservice to yourself.

If 40k is the only thing that appeals to you, you're going to have to be OK with how they are right now

or accept that you need to let that chapter of your life close

...

sounds like psychologist advice for dealing with problematic relationships

Manchu wrote:

biccat wrote:People are complaining about the GW price increases and lack of sales to Oceania...so you started a thread to bash Privateer Press?

Did you read the OP? No? Okay, here it is again: a lot of folks are claiming they will quit GW in favor of PP but PP is not actually a viable alternative to GW for everyone.

I did read the OP. It's some terribly offended poster ing about how he doesn't like GW but wants to play GW games because he doesn't like other games.

So you don't like Privateer Press's miniatures, why start a whole thread on it? You're not asking for alternatives (you've dismissed them all already), you're not asking for a solution to GW's "war on customers." You're not asking for other people's opinions on the models, nor are you asking for a defense from PP apologists. You're just whining about how PP isn't GW.

1: Play something else.
2: Suck it up and put up with GW's gak.
3: Stop playing.

/thread.

Buzzsaw wrote:]There are three components:

(1) Rules: GW's rules are serviceable and even preferable for someone like me, for whom tournament play with air-tight rulings is not a big deal. I feel like PP offers some very cool ideas but I feel the "combos" get even more cookie-cutter than 40k lists. I'm ambivalent about this issue, really.

(2) Models: I love (not like) the Citadel ranges on balance. By contrast, very few of PP's models do anything for me. I have never even been able to settle on collecting any faction over another. (The starter pack I bought was Skorne.)

(3) The Fluff: In my mind, GW wins hands down. It's not just a matter of having been around longer, either. The tone of the Iron Kingdoms just isn't to my taste as of yet.

Sounds like you tried a game, and didn't like it. I'm curious though as to why you even bothered with a game whose models and fluff didn't appeal to you. Kudo's for expressing your opinions as subjective opinions though, in contrast to alot of the "PP is peepee" kind of comments that tend to swirl on threads like these.

In the end people are going to be drawn to what appeals to them. In as much as what appeals to us is at least partially taught and based on experience rather than intrinsic, GW will always have an advantage as it's the first wargame many of us came to. The GW asthetic is what many of us like, and the GW gaming experience is what many of us are comfortable with, so it will color our opinion of PP and other games. Nothing at all wrong with that, just the way it is.

On a personal level, I don't play much 40k anymore, but I started with 40k, love the asthetic/fluff, and many of the models I buy have similarities with GW in terms of design, proportions, etc. Is it because they are influenced by GW, because I am influenced by GW or other factors?

Yes.

I've got MERCS.

The nice things are:

1. The entire system can be got for about $270 at the moment.
2. Only four factions and only five to six models per faction means you can do super detail on the individual figures.
3. The rules are concise yet subtle.
4. It's a great excuse to build up a lot of good terrain pieces.

... am now interested in Mercs

thanks Killkrazy

biccat wrote:I did read the OP. It's some terribly offended poster ing about how he doesn't like GW but wants to play GW games because he doesn't like other games.

So you don't like Privateer Press's miniatures, why start a whole thread on it? You're not asking for alternatives (you've dismissed them all already), you're not asking for a solution to GW's "war on customers." You're not asking for other people's opinions on the models, nor are you asking for a defense from PP apologists. You're just whining about how PP isn't GW.

1: Play something else.
2: Suck it up and put up with GW's gak.
3: Stop playing.

/thread.

Wow, how to make friends and influence people. We are trying to find out what it is that is wrong with PP in our tastes, and trying to find an alternative to our GW crak addiction. Discussion is the whole point of these forums, and not everyone is going to see the same things. I too would like to know what some see in their product, and at the same time we are all aware of what is going on over the road and have no requirement to belabour that issue.

There are other systems out there, and until discussed they are going to remain unknown. The fact that we have seen some of them and not been as positive as we like also requires further discussion, I would love to find a viable alternative to what I play currently.

biccat wrote:
I did read the OP. It's some terribly offended poster ing about how he doesn't like GW but wants to play GW games because he doesn't like other games.

So you don't like Privateer Press's miniatures, why start a whole thread on it? /thread.

Because in another anti-GW post someone mentioned PP as an alternative to GW. The OP gave reasons why PP wasn't a viable to him, and a Mod pointed out that they were going Off-topic, and should start a new thread about it.

Thus, this thread came into existence.

But thanks for letting us know you don't feel this thread should exist. Some people may not be able to summon up enough willpower to simply avoid the topic on their own gumption, so you are making the world a much safer place by shutting down debate before allowing it to confuse lesser mortals. Kudos to you, sir.

For a nice change of pace, 2mm models are worth a look.



You can play enormous battles with great looking units in a small space and quite cheaply. Also they are very easy to paint.

biccat wrote:

Manchu wrote:

biccat wrote:People are complaining about the GW price increases and lack of sales to Oceania...so you started a thread to bash Privateer Press?

Did you read the OP? No? Okay, here it is again: a lot of folks are claiming they will quit GW in favor of PP but PP is not actually a viable alternative to GW for everyone.

I did read the OP. It's some terribly offended poster ing about how he doesn't like GW but wants to play GW games because he doesn't like other games..

Wow. Nope, I'm not complaining that I don't like GW. I like GW just fine and will continue buying their products. But thank you for confirming that you have no interest in conforming to our Rule Number One.

On a slight tangent.

I think the only thing that could prove a successfull alternative to WH40K and the juggernaut that is it's background and fluff, etc, would be if someone converted one of the successfull console game I.P's into a table top wargame....kinda like FFG is doing with Gears of War.

People play these games online and on their own, and invest themselves in full immersion into those gaming worlds, the emotional bond people generate from playing these games can easily rival the bond that can be had from reading fluff from the Black Library (for example)

I think the following titles would make really good alternatives to WH40K, and can be skirmish level or massed rank war games:

Mass Effect
HALO
Gears of War (not a board game)
Kill Zone
RED Faction
Resistance
CRYSIS
ALIENS

Just to name a few......

I'd really love to see a KillZone skirmish game (and that expaned on). There's a lot of Helghast-esque stuff out there already so someone with rules writing talent could easily get some traction there. You know, a 54mm KillZone game would be awesome -- of course, the perennial problem with 54mm, the board/terrain would take up a massive amount of space. Of course, the close-quaters urban nature of the game world helps.

We have a Dakka user who was putting together an awesome board game based on Alien. An Aliens-based wargame or skirmish game would be awesome, too.

Here's neil101's thread:

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/318828.page

I have to confess, I'm really quite unclear what you are trying to accompliush here Manchu'

Manchu wrote:There are three components:

(1) Rules: GW's rules are serviceable and even preferable for someone like me, for whom tournament play with air-tight rulings is not a big deal. I feel like PP offers some very cool ideas but I feel the "combos" get even more cookie-cutter than 40k lists. I'm ambivalent about this issue, really.

I would quible that PP's rules are more prone to cookie-cutter combos then GW's, but, given that you're "ambivalent" about them, I need not argue the point. But the thing is, rules systems being "balanced" seems more or less measurable, as opposed to other elements that are purely subjective, so taking this element out of the equation by indifference leaves rather little to discuss.

Manchu wrote:(2) Models: I love (not like) the Citadel ranges on balance. By contrast, very few of PP's models do anything for me. I have never even been able to settle on collecting any faction over another. (The starter pack I bought was Skorne.)

(3) The Fluff: In my mind, GW wins hands down. It's not just a matter of having been around longer, either. The tone of the Iron Kingdoms just isn't to my taste as of yet.

Continuing what I said above: I certainly won't argue that the technical details of PP's models are equal to GW's, but that's the difference between the market leader and an upstart.

But if you simply don't like PP's aesthetics (or Corvus Belli's Infinity range, as you reference elsewhere)? If you don't like it, you don't like it, it's not really something that we're able to really argue over, or convince you about.

The valuation of the background is that to the Nth degree: if you like da Grimdark (which I most assuredly do not) and think it's well written (again, I don't), and don't like the Iron Kingdoms or the Human Sphere (the settings of Warma/Hordes and Infinity, respectively), again, we can no more convince you to like them then we can convince someone that durian smells good; either you like it, or it makes you throw up.

Is the point of this thread simply for solidarity for people that don't like games other then ones put out by GW?

Manchu wrote:Lord knows I've tried. I've bought some models and painted them up, got a slew of the books, which I have poured over. I haven't managed to pick up a game but, to be honest, I don't really even want to. I recognize they're a good company with some cool ideas. But most of their miniatures look goofy to me. GW doesn't seem to have a great deal of respect for you and me and the rest of its customers. But if you don't really like PP's stuff, like I don't, then PP is not really an alternative.

There's been a lot of this sentiment buzzing around the threads criticizing GW so I wanted to post this here so there is a place where it's on-topic.

This isn't flamebaiting, folks. I'm not saying you can't like it or that it's objectively horrible. People who agree with the above, please make sure to stay polite.

***Also, I changed the thread title since that is where this heading anyhow.l

I mean, you're not trying to get people to convince you to try new things, because you're happy with the thing you have.

You're not looking for people to argue with you about the virtues of other games, because your dismissal of these games isn't based on something arguable, it's your aesthetic sense of things.

I'm not trying to be snide, I just don't see where this thread can go and stay on topic: boosters of non-GW games will proclaim their virtues and be shot down, boosters of GW games will denigrate non-GW games and be called fanbois... I'm just not sure what is hoped to be accomplished here.

Well, in the Manchu's defense, some times, a thread doesn't have to necessarily have an objective....i'd class this as an open discussion.

I think Manchu has a point in itself: If you're fed up with GW but nothing out there floats your boat...what do you do?

I mean, it's the elephant in the room....at least that's the way I'm reading this thread.

The answer is simple, but it's painful....and I believe that's where the true discussion lies.

GW has created something beautiful (in one respect) they have created a game with a world-wide community! An American can fly to London tomorrow with his army, walk into almost any store (GW or Independant with a table) and most likely pick up a game with a complete stranger. The stranger knows the rules, understands the background, and they play for a few hours....no other system can boast this, and thats the problem....how do you offer a true alternative to something like that, in the time frame that it is required?

Fair enough, and I don't want to seem intemperate with Manchu. I just wanted to be clear that you can like this;

More then this;

Or this;


And it doesn't need to have some deep meaning, nor is it something that we are going to argue someone out of. Conversely, if you like Mr.112 or the Combine more then Mr. Draigo, it's not something we need to, or for that matter, can, hash out here.

Also, I wanted to post some purty pictures.

As a complete and utter atheist I am not sure why I want to live in a fascist Theocracy killing aliens in the name of Chr...err the Emperor. But strangely I do. Oh, GW you ahd me at hello as you pulled my wallet from me removed all of the money from it punched me in the face gave me some miniatures and demanded I say thank you.

It's the fluff that I love and I love the models. Had Warmachine or Hordes been my first foray I'd probably be saying this from another point of view, other than the fact PP doesn't make you sell your children to buy models.

As has been pointed out a few times, a major reason for posting this thread was so people who do not sympathize with the many, many "just play Warmahordes" responses to GW's price hike/ripping off of the Southern Hemisphere can blow off some steam without causing a brawl in those threads. We have thread after thread after thread of people bashing GW but one remark that's critical of PP is considered "flamebaiting." I mean, look at some of the responses here.

@Buzzsaw: I don't think the quality of rules is any more objective ameasurement than the quality of miniatures. Getting to what the objective standard is will be hard, sure, but they can both be more or less objective or subjective.

So those items aside: The point of this thread is to talk about whether or not PP or Malifaux or anything else can really be a viable alternative to people who like GW. For me, the answer is no. For others, it's yes and then some. There's also the objective of just talking about the range of options out there and what else we would like to see -- stuff that PP and other alleged "GW alternatives" aren't doing.

Buzzsaw, I think the problem with your perspective is you are trying to come up with "the answer." It will be different for each person. That's one of the underlying points here: Warmahordes isn't going to work for all wargamers just like GW doesn't.

Thankfully I had 2 children...I just sold the dumb one.

Sarpedon_702 wrote:Thankfully I had 2 children...I just sold the dumb one.

Well, I'd stay away from the PP lines. If you start to like them, you'll end up selling the smart one as well.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Delephont wrote:GW has created something beautiful (in one respect) they have created a game with a world-wide community! An American can fly to London tomorrow with his army, walk into almost any store (GW or Independant with a table) and most likely pick up a game with a complete stranger. The stranger knows the rules, understands the background, and they play for a few hours....no other system can boast this, and thats the problem....how do you offer a true alternative to something like that, in the time frame that it is required?

That's a great point. PP is trying very hard to make this a reality for their games, too.

I can't afford another hobby. I'll just stick with one system and and be happy with it. I just love the fluff for 40K. I swear I have every Black library Book I have Everything for Dark Heresy, Rogue Trader, and Deathwatch. Not to mention the Video games and I vowed I would never play an mmo, but a 40k one is fast approaching and I am going to break my vow...

Manchu - You may want to look at Rezolution: A dark tomorrow. It has a very dark cyberpunk feel. The review are positive and while some of the models are a bit off there are some really good ones too- it's not like you have to use them anyway. The rules are meant to make cinematic games rather than realistic.

You might also want to try looking at generic games. There are enough cyberpunk models out there you shouldn't have trouble finding ones that fit. This way you get the background and models you want.

Manchu wrote:As has been pointed out a few times, a major reason for posting this thread was so people who do not sympathize with the many, many "just play Warmahordes" responses to GW's price hike/ripping off of the Southern Hemisphere can blow off some steam without causing a brawl in those threads. We have thread after thread after thread of people bashing GW but one remark that's critical of PP is considered "flamebaiting." I mean, look at some of the responses here.

Actually, this pretty much answers my earlier question of "Is the point of this thread simply for solidarity for people that don't like games other then ones put out by GW?" The answer seems to be "yes".

Manchu wrote:@Buzzsaw: I don't think the quality of rules is any more objective ameasurement than the quality of miniatures. Getting to what the objective standard is will be hard, sure, but they can both be more or less objective or subjective.

So those items aside: The point of this thread is to talk about whether or not PP or Malifaux or anything else can really be a viable alternative to people who like GW. For me, the answer is no. For others, it's yes and then some. There's also the objective of just talking about the range of options out there and what else we would like to see -- stuff that PP and other alleged "GW alternatives" aren't doing.

Buzzsaw, I think the problem with your perspective is you are trying to come up with "the answer." It will be different for each person. That's one of the underlying points here: Warmahordes isn't going to work for all wargamers just like GW doesn't.

I'm not quite sure how my comments can be read that way... But let me be explicit, I recognize that there is no one "answer", which is why I was puzzled by what this thread was supposed to accomplish. But the above point answered that, so I will leave you to it.

Delephont wrote:Well, in the Manchu's defense, some times, a thread doesn't have to necessarily have an objective....i'd class this as an open discussion.

I think Manchu has a point in itself: If you're fed up with GW but nothing out there floats your boat...what do you do?

I mean, it's the elephant in the room....at least that's the way I'm reading this thread.

The answer is simple, but it's painful....and I believe that's where the true discussion lies.

GW has created something beautiful (in one respect) they have created a game with a world-wide community! An American can fly to London tomorrow with his army, walk into almost any store (GW or Independant with a table) and most likely pick up a game with a complete stranger. The stranger knows the rules, understands the background, and they play for a few hours....no other system can boast this, and thats the problem....how do you offer a true alternative to something like that, in the time frame that it is required?

That is also true of several Ancient and Mediaeval wargame rules. The extra bonus is that if you don't use the WHAB base system you models will be compatible with almost all the other rulesets on the market.

You're right, there is no 'one' answer. I think you are missing the point of the thread, and that is to give ideas as to what replacement systems there are to PP. In a lot of peoples view PP isn't the answer to GW, so I don't get why you are so upset when that point is muted.

Cutlas has been muted, along with Infinity and a few others. It is no surprise that the more established alternatives have been looked into, and whether they reach the benchmark is upto each person who reads the thread.

I am interested because I find I have a similar opinion to the OP, and am also looking for an alternative or at least a measure of getting 'a good bang for my buck'

De Bellis Antiquitatis

http://fanaticus.org/DBA/index.html

I think malifaux has decent mechanics from what I've read but the models are generally fugly.

PP has so-so miniswith some good minis although the game plays like magic the gathering - build and build only. With 40k the dice element is more pronounced so you have to be more tactical . WIth Warmahordes the luck factor is almost non existant, plus caster-kill sucks.

Phototoxin wrote:I think malifaux has decent mechanics from what I've read but the models are generally fugly.

PP has so-so miniswith some good minis although the game plays like magic the gathering - build and build only. With 40k the dice element is more pronounced so you have to be more tactical . WIth Warmahordes the luck factor is almost non existant, plus caster-kill sucks.

Eh? Build has almost nothing to do with success in WM/H. I've seen tourneys won with lists written by their opponent.

There is a wargames convention near me tomorrow (today even) and it has never had a GW stall. Its never had a GW presence, beyond some second hand gear and what the independents bring with them. Its a large building full of stalls selling all manner of system and every shape and size of figure from across time and space. Granted you are never going to find "Warhammer 40k without the GW", and perhaps thats because GW kicks the IP out of everything that even comes near...but it would be a little silly to believe that NONE of the possible options is capable of being as good or better than 40k, or even replacing it in your affections. If I find anything "grimdark" I'll let you know.

@CaptainJack: I think we may be the only two people on Dakka who own Cutlass! so far. (One of us has to review it soon!) I'd guess we bought it for the same reason. The point wasn't to replace GW but rather to sample other things. That's the same reason I tried to start WarMachine and may eventually actually start it. As it stands, I feel there are better "other games" for me. I deeply sympathize with anyone currently priced out of GW who doesn't care for PP's stuff or the historicals. Yes, there is more than ever before but aside from GW and PP there's still a long way to go.

the sad part about all of this is that if there ever was to be a perfect substitute for 40k, GW would already have the C&Ds sent out...

Though I like the Infinity models and rules the models have never really grabbed me.

Here's my take. Warmachine and Hordes are exciting and tactically interesting games that are easy to set up and quick to play, ideally suited to a tournament mindset. I love them for that.
However, the models are really really hit and miss. I got into the game because I loved the primal power of the Earthborn Dire Troll sculpt. Now.
If you look at the other Dire Troll minis, you'll notice something:






Right. These are the five dire trolls, and they are each in their own way dynamic and well scuplted miniatures. But from the Mauler to Mulg, there is a HUGE difference in basic proportions, physical traits and general consistency. You can argue that Dire Trolls are morphologically inconsistent by nature, but this inconsistency is rampant throughout PP's ranges. Trolls are by far the worst offenders, with some models having ENORMOUS hands, other having normal sized hands, completely different approaches to faces, head sizes, shoulder growths...the lot! Human unit attachments who are completely out of scale with the normal guys are common too (Winter Gaurd are an example here). Considering what PP are charging this broad scale incosistency is unacceptable. It speaks to a carelessness and overall lack of quality control in their miniatures. This same attitude is what leads them to having many ill concieved "turkey" models with wildly impractical poses or downright stupid looking equipment. (One major pet peeve of mine is Grim Angus. The model is absolutely sweet, except he has a blade on the stock of his gun. So if he braces it to absorb recoil, he'll cut himself? GENIUS. You know we had blades attached to guns, called bayonets, that look perfectly cool, right PP?) I mean it's not that their guys can't sculpt, clearly they can, but it seems like they have not got any one vision for the game or a lack of critical analysis (does this look right, is this consistent, would this actually work?) Maybe I'm too pernickity, but this is so widespread in PP games it's quite hard for me to ignore. I mean, 40K has it's share of sillies too, but mostly it fits a certain realistic aestethic, and within ranges, these days, most stuff is scaled appropriately. GW I think provide better "value for money" in that regard than PP. PP charge premium prices for what can be at times substandard product. And their stubborn adherance to metal pisses me off because it is obviously an inferior material when compared to plastic.

The other issue is the background, which is not as compelling or open as GW background due to it's focus on individual characters and a developing narrative. This is a style thing and I can appreciate it, so whatever, but I understand why it doesn't have an appeal to the creative fluff nutters of the world.

Malifaux to me looks like good concepts with sloppy, soft sculpting. I've no interest in getting into it.

That said, there are many advantages to PP games as a hobby. The unified release schedule and fast pace of releases are a godsend to us Xenos players who are used to waiting in the cold for a decade or so between books with GW. The game has a strong internal balance and I feel match ups are usually much fairer than in some GW situations, and you can make most builds work. The way the game works means a few tweaks can give you an entirely new list, and also means that you rarely need multiples of large units- generally you want a diversity of troops in your army.
I play and enjoy 40K, Fantasy and Warmahordes, and think each has it's place.

As a Warmachine/WHFB player, I get where you're at Manchu. At first, I kinda drank the Kool-Aid and fell straight in love with WM. I liked the idea of a skirmish based game, and WM's ruleset is solid for that.

However, as time moved on, (And two armies were under my belt, Cryx and Mercs) I kinda noticed that PP's newer releases were kinda silly. Retribution was kinda the beginning, though I liked Mk II. However, the newest stuff, particularly for Wrath, was really not inspiring for me, and I just eventually saw too many parallels with GW's releases and PP.

Is PP bad? Hell no. They've got two great games, cool minis, etc. But, IMHO, it doesn't do what Fantasy does for me.

@daboss

the inconsistency does not speak of an overall lack of quality...but rather this is actually PP moving over to a more cohesive aesthetic for all of its armies

if you look at the IK line "Bridge Troll" you'll notice the basic "Iron Kingdoms Troll" aesthetic is there and you can see how the aesthetic evolved over time with subsequent diretrolls. Youll also see "cygnar city guard" figures painted RED (more menite than khador).

Warmachine/Hordes started out as an RPG and the aesthetics were usually decided largely by the Matt wilson and the hired artist at the time, with some suggestions here and there.

PP is finally settling in on a solid aesthetic for its trolls (darker, purpler blue and popeye arms) as now there is a need to do so.

Even 40k's stuff evolved as the years went by. Orks in particular as well as space marines etc.

To hazard a guess, inconsistencies in quality of sculpt will eventually balance themselves out. Don't forget how many truly hideous casts GW has gone through to achieve any of the consistent looks of its miniatures. PP is on what, its second wind with releases/re-releases?

And unless I miss my guess, are they not now doing plastics?

And I've never seen a fantasy scupltor yet who can make a scabbard/holster that actually fits the weapon the mini carries.

Bakerofish: Fair point, but it doesn't excuse the massive scale problems that are still consistently occuring.

@daboss

you say that but all i hear are "RHINO LANDRAIDER RHINO VALKYRIE DROPPOD"

Hahahah, nicely played, sir.

gotta say though...theres no excuse for the current Kayazy Assassins

*shudder*

Actually it's funny people bring up the Aesthetics. Certain Menoth units (Reclaimers, Vassal Mechaniks, The Testament of Menoth) could honestly fit right in with the IoM if you just replaced the Menofixes with skulls.

Heck at a stretch even Reznik and the Choir kind of feel like they could fit.

If a miniatures game doesn't attract me with its miniatures, then as a game, it has failed for me.

Warmachine is one of these games.

There is no faction where I actually like enough models or units to bother collecting a playable army.
(Though I do like a number of models and units from both warmachine AND hordes, you can't play a game with an army comprised of some Cygnar units, some circle units and a khador unit - like many miniatures games, armies have to be made up of units for a single faction).

I did dally with it when it had first come out, and the Cygnar battlebox was the starter I disliked the least (The majority of Khador is too chunky and brutal looking, the Menites too "churchy" (I have a bias against "religious" figures and will never use them) and the cryx seemed "evil for its own sake".

Then they went and changed the game, lowering points costs, and now I need more stuff to make that initial starter playable.

I found Infinity. It's SF, it's cyberpunk, it has a mechanic that reinforces the "those who live by the sword will be shot by those who don't" philosophy. It's skirmish (so small 'army') as well.

I think something is being overlooked in this and it's a fairly simple thing.

The Chaos Lord on Juggernaut is amazing, the Obliterators stink to high heaven.

Does much of the PP range leave me cold? Yep, entire armies of it, but certain models are amazing:







There are many of the malifaux range that I really like and several that don't appeal at all. Infinity... erm... I would have to scrutinise the range to find something that I really didn't like as I am usually blown away by how detailed and dynamic that range is.

What I think rivals have so far failed to understand is that GW game players want armies, full blown armies instead of skirmish sized forces, as a skirmish force can be built and painted and played with within a day or weekend.

Bakerofish wrote:gotta say though...theres no excuse for the current Kayazy Assassins

*shudder*

The only one of those models I actually dislike is "dancing unit leader."

I think the rest look suitably "street gutter assassin-y," especially the Underboss.

Speaking of PP and their models, does anyone know of any alternative model lines that scale well with Warmachine/Hordes?

Here are some ideas... From earlier in the thread.

ArbeitsSchu wrote:My Cryx forces contain a Rackham Troll, Heresy Wormherders, a pile of bits from a dozen manufacturers, and characterful extras from Hell-Dorado. My nascent Skorne are already sprouting Perry Twins Feudal Samurai bits. Frankly, so long as your opponent knows what it is you're fielding, you are not required to use PP figures. Hell, if it fits the bill, use GW figures.

Would you like to know why Privateer Press has elements that make it seem like Warhammer and Magic the Gathering? It's simple really. Matt Wilson used to work for Wizards of the Coast and he's co creator of Warmachine and Hordes. He's also the artist that painted a lot of the angel pictures for the white decks of magic cards.

The miniatures director however used to be Mike McVey of Games Workshops Eavy Metal articles. So with both of those guys in charge of the company, of course it's bound to have elements from both of those games.

I've gotta say, I've seen some pretty horrible miniatures come from both Privateer Press and Games Workshop. They both have made some pretty seriously bad miniatures. But they have also both made some pretty seriously good miniatures too. So bashing one while saying the other is better is really not true which ever side of the fence you are on. They're both great and they're both terrible.

And if someone doesn't like these games, nothing is stopping you from trying to create your own game. If there is nothing out there that you like, why not make what you like? That's what Matt Wilson did.

Da Boss wrote:Here's my take. Warmachine and Hordes are exciting and tactically interesting games that are easy to set up and quick to play, ideally suited to a tournament mindset. I love them for that.
However, the models are really really hit and miss. I got into the game because I loved the primal power of the Earthborn Dire Troll sculpt. Now.
If you look at the other Dire Troll minis, you'll notice something:






Right. These are the five dire trolls, and they are each in their own way dynamic and well scuplted miniatures. But from the Mauler to Mulg, there is a HUGE difference in basic proportions, physical traits and general consistency.
...

.

I was looking at the pictures thinking what a good job the sculptors did to tie together a range of monsters which are different but also clearly closely genetically related.




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Apart from the humanoid body form and four digits, they all have short legs, big hands, lower jaw tusks, and small crania.


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MeanGreenStompa wrote: ...
...

What I think rivals have so far failed to understand is that GW game players want armies, full blown armies instead of skirmish sized forces, as a skirmish force can be built and painted and played with within a day or weekend.

That's an interesting point.

To me, coming from a historical background, 40K is not an "army" game it is an overgrown skirmish game.

Each model represents a single person (monster, tank etc.) and moves, shoots and gets wounded individually by a set of statistics more detailed than many role-playing games. The only difference between this and a skirmish game is that most individuals are corralled into units by the cohesion rule, whereas in a smaller skirmish figures are often allowed to move anywhere they like.

WHFB is basically the same except for ordering the troops into tight formations.

40K "armies" vary between the strength of a large platoon (40) and a company (40).

From a generalship viewpoint, the important thing is how many individual manoeuvre units your force contains. A typical 40K list contains about 10, very similar to Infinity "armies", DBA armies (12) and other historical games.

It doesn't really matter how many individuals are abstracted within a manoeuvre unit. For example, each base of my 6mm Russians represents a brigade containing an average 2,500 men. It is still only a single playing piece on the battlefield. The main difference is the look of it.

Manchu wrote:@CaptainJack: I think we may be the only two people on Dakka who own Cutlass! so far. (One of us has to review it soon!) I'd guess we bought it for the same reason. The point wasn't to replace GW but rather to sample other things. That's the same reason I tried to start WarMachine and may eventually actually start it. As it stands, I feel there are better "other games" for me. I deeply sympathize with anyone currently priced out of GW who doesn't care for PP's stuff or the historicals. Yes, there is more than ever before but aside from GW and PP there's still a long way to go.

Agreed, there will be a Cutlass game played on the 'Tales from the Maelstrom' blog in the near future as we all have pirate crews and are just waiting for the real world to give us a gap to play in. I'm sorry if I came across badly, I'm not getting rid of my GW stuff. It's more a point of not expanding the amount of gear as fast as I have in the past, and concentrating on completing currently owned minis/armies. I am getting stuff from Antenicities to use as Chimeras in my Guard list as an example.

OT: Have a look at the Cutlass book, the presentation is fantastic and it is worth the price just to read as there is a well laid out plot and nicely paced story running through the book. The rules look nice and easy to learn and use. While I haven't used them in anger yet they give me a good feeling for playability and fun.

On topic, the minis posted exemplify why I won't buy PP minis. As an aside I'm waiting for Leviathans to come out, and I've tried Dystopia wars and wasn't impressed with the game although the minis are quite tempting. I think I will wait for Leviathans to come out before I choose one of them.

Wow, I'm a little embarrassed after reading this thread. And slightly irritated. [Note: I haven't bought GW models for awhile now but I was in the OP's position a couple years ago, so I empathize]

Embarrassed that so many people can say that they have tried another game but can't get behind the price/rules/model/fluff but they are tired of GW. ... Don't try to shift your 'fix' from GW to someone else. You think that GW is screwing you/everyone, than stop buying GW. (Not switch to something else) Just stop buying GW. AFTER you have decided to stop buying GW, (I don't want anyone to only quote the previous bit, the next bit is just as important) than you should explore other games and systems to see if there is anything you enjoy for itself, not as a GW substitute.

tl;dr? summary: Don't like GW, don't buy it. THEN, find new game you enjoy for itself, not as a rebound.


The other little bit was people commenting about the quality of some of the other companies minis. I don't mean aesthetics, that's a matter of taste, but the sculpting and production quality of the companies that make Malifaux and Infinity is not sub par. The detail on minis such as Lady Justice (Wyrd), DT Mauler (PP), or zondbots (CB) are as good as GW. (At least, in terms of depth of detail, quality of casting, and such, they are comparable.)

With the newest double whammy of GW news (the Southern hemisphere and more price increases) many people are thinking of ditching GW. Make up your mind. I had that decision in front of me when the Tyranid codex came out, and the Skaven codex, where I decided that the quality of the rules, and the prices of models, were too much for me and I was stopping GW. Since then, I have played a bunch of games and found some I like, and some I don't. If you are afraid of getting into a system no one plays, get two factions, then you can demo it, and there is always at least one person too eager to buy new pewter, and it'll just take off.

Reasons I stopped playing GW: 5th ed. Tyranid Codex making my army unplayable/need to spend twice as much to make it a legal list, 8th ed. Skaven codex so poorly written that I ended up not buying a single miniature, price bumps.
Reasons I Miss GW: Fluff (which I still read), ease of finding games in new areas, their plastic model kits.

Other games tried: WarmaHordes, Malifaux, Firestorm Armada, Infinity, Flames of War.

some are better than others, but I go with the models I like, take the time to paint them up and read up on them, and I have had fun, even if I don't play with them all the time

My big problem I'm running into is a lot of the alternatives are more geared for 'skirmish' level play, where I like more company size games. Also most the more popular alternatives have a serious lack of tanks and the like, and as a treadhead, thats fairly intolerable. As a result I'm probably going to stick with my Imperial Guard for a long while yet, though my ork list has pretty much been axed.

All that ever attracted me were Khador, but as the game revolves around Jacks... and they look... awful... I shan't really consider it.

Plus why would I want an army of Winter Guard when I have my IG?

And Steampunk? I don't care for Steampunk...

Kilkrazy wrote:

MeanGreenStompa wrote:
What I think rivals have so far failed to understand is that GW game players want armies, full blown armies instead of skirmish sized forces, as a skirmish force can be built and painted and played with within a day or weekend.

That's an interesting point.

To me, coming from a historical background, 40K is not an "army" game it is an overgrown skirmish game.

Each model represents a single person (monster, tank etc.) and moves, shoots and gets wounded individually by a set of statistics more detailed than many role-playing games. The only difference between this and a skirmish game is that most individuals are corralled into units by the cohesion rule, whereas in a smaller skirmish figures are often allowed to move anywhere they like.

WHFB is basically the same except for ordering the troops into tight formations.

40K "armies" vary between the strength of a large platoon (40) and a company (40).

I'm very sure I've read that WHFB is a phys-rep game and that 1 rank and file trooper equates to 10, so an elf spearman unit of 20 = 200, 50 clanrats = 500 clanrats and that only monsters and heroes are 'individuals'.

That was certainly written into the rules/designers notes, back in the day.

But my point stands, I think the skirmish games, whilst excellent skirmish games, aren't attracting the bigger 'army' players of 40k/fantasy. If another system with developed background and armies were to come along, with a price that was right, we'd see a migration.

Im in the same boat as many people these days, GW has finally pushed me out of playing/collecting with there screw the customer/fans attitude but i enjoy mini wargaming and can find no other that is interesting or has decent models.

I spent 2 hours last night looking through pp, malifaux and infinity's websites at there minis and only the odd 1 or 2 cought my eye, depressing as it is i dont think there is any other mini wargame that i can get into than warhammer. Flames of war i find slightly interesting but not enough to play. I know no other company to look into, even if its just minis to paint and no more gamming id be happy.

Manchu wrote: But the point is that PP, Malifaux, and Infinity (et alia) aren't really alternatives at all for some of us.

They ARE alternatives mate you may not like them today for a particular reason but on this little hobby called wargamming that we share the more years you have under your belt the more your tastes shift from a to b.
These games are like dormant virus and when you least espect your playing something you never liked before hehehe

For example I just started to having fun in a scale I never really liked 15mm and Im having a blast.

Tabletop Gaming News is a great website for a 'sheltered' GW gamer to find out about other game makers. They update daily with every little tidbit of mini based news. It is a neat way to see just how many other people are out there.

Manchu wrote:@CaptainJack: I think we may be the only two people on Dakka who own Cutlass! so far. (One of us has to review it soon!) I'd guess we bought it for the same reason. The point wasn't to replace GW but rather to sample other things. That's the same reason I tried to start WarMachine and may eventually actually start it. As it stands, I feel there are better "other games" for me. I deeply sympathize with anyone currently priced out of GW who doesn't care for PP's stuff or the historicals. Yes, there is more than ever before but aside from GW and PP there's still a long way to go.

oh, no. I have it. Mine came the other day.

Want to know what it reminds me of? FUN. a basic no shill collecting game without a bunch of gak.



As to the point in question, I can see how PP's game can turn some off. I only play with small armies, I play one offs, and I don't get into the whole Pdg 5 thinking and mentality that some drones get. I like malfaux, but not to the point of getting all of the armies like in some of the games I've gotten hooked into. I basicly have a copuple of gangs and I'll leave it at that.

Historicals are thier own ball of wax. There are so many out there, that it isn't even funny. 15mm, 1/72, 25mm, heroic 32mm, 1/54, 54mm, etc.etc. etc.

You can even go back and pick up a few Avalon Hill games and play with chits.


Bottom line to you though, I can sympathise with the disillusion, but don't lose hope on GW. You can always pull out the Specialist Games and have one offs, or even go second hand and pull out stuff that no one wants, and step back in time and get those guys that were love children once. You don't always have to go back and buy the newest shiny. They are just reducded to third hand status in attention. While I sell off a gakload of plastics and metals, I can turn my attention to SOTR, Flames of War, AE WW2, Reaper guys, and other selections of gaming that is and has been there, but had to wait in the shadows for thier day.


On hand, I have about fifteen other games that deserve more attention, even more so after that rather gobblygook globe circumnavigating from Wells the Noob.

If that letter, posted in the other thread didn't convince you to find anything other then GW, I don't know what will.

Deminyn wrote:Tabletop Gaming News is an evil website that makes me spend money.

fixed your typo

Manchu wrote:Here are some ideas... From earlier in the thread.

ArbeitsSchu wrote:My Cryx forces contain a Rackham Troll, Heresy Wormherders, a pile of bits from a dozen manufacturers, and characterful extras from Hell-Dorado. My nascent Skorne are already sprouting Perry Twins Feudal Samurai bits. Frankly, so long as your opponent knows what it is you're fielding, you are not required to use PP figures. Hell, if it fits the bill, use GW figures.

Thank you Manchu, I must have missed that from earlier. Does anyone else have any other suggestions or ideas? Even better, does anyone have pictures of other miniatures side by side with Privateer Press's offerings?

So:

- PP
- Infinity
- Malifaux
- MERCS
- Rezolution
- Urban War/Metropolis
- Cutlass!
- Hisroricals

What did I miss and what can bed added?

Secrets of the Third Reich.
Incursion.

Forgot:

- FoW
- DUST Tactics
- Firestorm Armada
- Uncharted Seas
- Dystopian Wars
- Leviathans

Dust Tactics is right now more of a 'board game' than a 'tabletop game'.

Although I guess so is Incursion, even if the units from Incursion are also usable in SoTR.

Battletech

I tried PP a while a go, friend showed me how it works.

For me the models are not appealing.

And I remember thinking this is like pokemon.. You have Ash Catchem the Warcaster and some giant steam punk pikachus..

But really for me a viable alt needs

Excellent miniatures
Great setting
Good Rules
Low prices

Apparently this is impossible.

Manchu wrote:Forgot:

- FoW
- DUST Tactics
- Firestorm Armada
- Uncharted Seas
- Dystopian Wars
- Leviathans

Thanks for compiling this list of games nobody plays (yes a few people play here and there, but come on ...)

None of these games are going to relace GW/40K.

malfred wrote:

Deminyn wrote:Tabletop Gaming News is an evil website that makes me spend money.

fixed your typo

QFT


Automatically Appended Next Post:
also,

CT GAMER wrote:

Manchu wrote:Forgot:

-[bunch of games]

Thanks for compiling this list of games nobody plays (yes a few people play here and there, but come on ...)

None of these games are going to relace GW/40K.

And this is the problem of thinking "GW is doing something I don't like, what can I replace it with."

Nothing is going to wholesale replace GW. They have decades of experience, a ridiculous stranglehold on the market, widespread gaming population and employ some of the best in the business.

However, the hope is that you just say "I've had enough GW!" and stop buying their stuff.
Then hopefully, while you sit there, staring longingly at your work area, you decide it may be worth going to a FLGS on a games night, and asking to try some of the games. Someday, something will peak your interest and you'll be hooked again. And you decide that the couple odd quirks of rules/models/fluff aren't that bad and you love it.
Otherwise, you'll always end up going "GW is doing something I don't like, but nothing else is better, so I'll keep buying it."


GIVE ME YOUR MONEY

Manchu wrote:Here are some ideas... From earlier in the thread.

ArbeitsSchu wrote:My Cryx forces contain a Rackham Troll, Heresy Wormherders, a pile of bits from a dozen manufacturers, and characterful extras from Hell-Dorado. My nascent Skorne are already sprouting Perry Twins Feudal Samurai bits. Frankly, so long as your opponent knows what it is you're fielding, you are not required to use PP figures. Hell, if it fits the bill, use GW figures.

Further to that post: Black Scorpion do some nice Undead Pirates which have snuck in to my Cryx, and I notice that Mcvey chap has come on in leaps and bounds with interesting and characterful figures that could easily serve as something in a WarMaHordes force. I would definitely say the HellDorado range has some usable gear for most factions. Hasslefree do a load more. If anything, the fact that PP do some questionable sculpts should just encourage people to convert and replace and all that other fun hobby stuff we do.

Better yet, there are literally hundreds of ranges if historical figures that can easily serve in War Machine forces. For example, Back Of Beyond Russians/Chinese riflemen from Copplestone Castings make much nicer Khador troops than the PP ones, and if you want gentlemen in frock coats with pistols and tricorne hats then umpty odd ranges exist for those. About the only thing that might be tricky to replace is the Jacks themselves, and now they come in plastic, its hardly rocket science to faff them about. Think outside the box. (The skip sized box GW sell games in.)


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Shaman wrote:I tried PP a while a go, friend showed me how it works.

For me the models are not appealing.

And I remember thinking this is like pokemon.. You have Ash Catchem the Warcaster and some giant steam punk pikachus..

But really for me a viable alt needs

Excellent miniatures
Great setting
Good Rules
Low prices

Apparently this is impossible.

Given that GW themselves can't manage your wish list, I would say that you're aiming too high. Far too high.

OP thats good that you can't get into them...

...I, on the otherhand, am a game whore (game prostitute if you will) and like PP, Infinity, Star Wars Miniatures, Malifaux, and Anima Tactics.


EDIT: You know what? Maybe I'm a miniatures prostitute (not to be confused with a prostitute who caters to midgets)... I like the models a little more than the game play.

MeanGreenStompa wrote:

Kilkrazy wrote:

MeanGreenStompa wrote:
What I think rivals have so far failed to understand is that GW game players want armies, full blown armies instead of skirmish sized forces, as a skirmish force can be built and painted and played with within a day or weekend.

That's an interesting point.

To me, coming from a historical background, 40K is not an "army" game it is an overgrown skirmish game.

Each model represents a single person (monster, tank etc.) and moves, shoots and gets wounded individually by a set of statistics more detailed than many role-playing games. The only difference between this and a skirmish game is that most individuals are corralled into units by the cohesion rule, whereas in a smaller skirmish figures are often allowed to move anywhere they like.

WHFB is basically the same except for ordering the troops into tight formations.

40K "armies" vary between the strength of a large platoon (40) and a company (40).

I'm very sure I've read that WHFB is a phys-rep game and that 1 rank and file trooper equates to 10, so an elf spearman unit of 20 = 200, 50 clanrats = 500 clanrats and that only monsters and heroes are 'individuals'.

That was certainly written into the rules/designers notes, back in the day. .

Yes, it was in first edition, however it was obviously cobblers because it just doesn't happen that 200 men of Side A get first hit on 200 men of Side B and wipe them out without being hit back because of the initiative stat.

People should look at historicals for larger sized games with detailed background and awesome fluff.

Or play SF or Fantasy games.

Manchu-
You should definately put SoTR on the list. The rules are great and manage to make units feel unique without you needing to constantly check the book. There are loads of WW2 minis you can use so there isn't a problem if you don't like the West Wind ones. If you do give it try make sure you get the Doomsday expansion. The first book contains core rules and basic army lists, doomsday has all the weird units.

I would also reccomend Future War commander if you aren't against smaller scale games. It's a lot like warmaster but being generic means it's better supported. Unlike many games the weapon ranges aren't that bad. A nice feature is the way it encourages you to take a mix of unit types. Just infantry or tanks will get destroyed.

CT GAMER- speak for yourself. My gaming group has about 30 regular members so we get at least 10+ large tables each meeting. Over the last 3 months we have gone from 8/9 GW tables per meeting to 2. KoW, Warmahordes, Malifaux and Fow have completely taken over. In particular WHFB is nearly dead with KoW being played instead. The majority of the people still playing 40k are waiting for Mantics sci fi game.

Non GW games will be different to what your used to and GW games are good but other games have good parts too.

Don't forget about Confrontation minis; you can find the plastics for dirt-cheap, which can fill out armies for other systems. The metalsw are usually pretty rediculous on eBay, but sometimes worth getting for a single guy. The sculpting is always worth it.

As 40k replacements go, I had hopes for the Confrontation expansion. Shame it never worked out. But MeanGeen is right; skirmish games don't scratch that itch for a large armies, especially personalized ones. As much as I enjoy Malifaux and Infinity, I always feel like I'm playing someone else's army, not my own creation.

CT GAMER wrote:

Manchu wrote:Forgot:

- FoW
- DUST Tactics
- Firestorm Armada
- Uncharted Seas
- Dystopian Wars
- Leviathans

Thanks for compiling this list of games nobody plays (yes a few people play here and there, but come on ...)

None of these games are going to relace GW/40K.

Nice self fulfilling prophecy there. No one plays the game, so we shouldn't play it. But then it is at least in my local wrong, as Dystopian Wars has replaced 40k night at the FLGS. (random board games night replaced fantasy a few months ago) Not to mention that Spartan is having the same problem as PP right now, they can't make their stuff fast enough to meet the demand.

Mastiff wrote:Don't forget about Confrontation minis; you can find the plastics for dirt-cheap, which can fill out armies for other systems.

Indeed. Someone here in the Springs built a Wargods(Manchu why isn't Wargods on your list as an Alt?) Wendigo force using the plastic Wolfen instead of the Croc Games Wendigo because of the price.

I actually think Confrontation is at least as viable as some of the other games mentioned. The prices on ebay are reasonable for the most part, except for those pieces that were rare or exceedingly beautiful. As Mastiff said, the sculpting is so good it's always worth it. Great rulebook and quite cheap on ebay.

Take a look at the models and you'll see. No reason your GW alternative can't be oop; you still have access to the models for purchase.

Have to say as an alternative to 4th 40k/late 7th ed Warhammer. Warmachine did well. Then 5th ed fixed a lot of 40k for me. Warmahordes has a mechanic some like and some don't. I love coping with random stuff its why I play Orks and Skaven, this leads me to Confrontation 3.5 and Uncharted Seas as opposed to Warmahordes. Flames of War is a great mechanic but I don't like the idea of winning as the Germans or losing as the British. I'd love a Battlefront Sci-Fi game however!

Whoring out Brushfire again, because I like to be able to eat every now and then

Its not going to replace GW, we're not the David to that Goliath, but it is fun. At its heart its a skirmish game, only needing a few models to play a quick fun game. But we were GW players, and we like stupidly big games as well. Thats why we designed Brushfire to scale, the largest game we've played so far was 500 pts on either side, which was somewhere between 50~100 figures each.

With Eight factions in the printed book, and a 9th as a free pdf there are alot of options in what you can play. Each of the factions has a basis in history, but history is twisted and thrown out at times so you get Turtle's with cannons mounted on the back of them and gerbils with power armor. There is no 'Force Organization chat', so you just pick a faction and pay the point cost to play what you want. The mercs & pirates PDFs give you options to take other stuff not normally in your army too.

Quick start rules are free, bare bones rulebook pdf (just the rules, no fluff or factions) is $10, full copy of Historia Rodentia (Rules, Campaign info, fluff, and eight factions) is $20 for the PDF, or $25 for the printed edition. A starter box for a single faction is $35 and gets you a hero and 25 points, standard game size is 100 points but 25~50 is great for introduction games.

The list I'm getting together is for in-print games with rules and associated miniatures. So Brushfire would go on but Confrontation or AT-43 sadly would not. Neither would D&D or Star Wars minis, for that matter. Generic rulesets and miniatures lines don't make the cut, either.

What is SoTR?

Manchu wrote:The list I'm getting together is for in-print games with rules and associated miniatures.

Wargods is both of these, it's a decent alternative to WHFB.

Manchu wrote:The list I'm getting together is for in-print games with rules and associated miniatures. So Brushfire would go on but Confrontation or AT-43 sadly would not. Neither would D&D or Star Wars minis, for that matter. Generic rulesets and miniatures lines don't make the cut, either.

What is SoTR?

Secrets of the Third Rech, IIRC

Surtur wrote:Battletech

Battletech is a lot of fun, especially if you pick up the Solaris VII supplement which lets you play gladiator battles with your `Mechs.

On the topic of alternate games has anyone given Wargods of Aegyptus a try? The game seems very similar to Warhammer Fantasy and has some beautiful models. The starter packs are also reasonably priced and give you a nice jumping off point to creating an army.

I built a couple of armies for Wargods a few years ago but could never find players in my area to play the game with, so I am not sure how fun the system actually is. From what I recall of the rules they incorporate a system to track the experience of the characters in your army and as they survive battles they gain abilities. Seemed neat, anyway the game's website can be found here: http://www.crocodilegames.com/

My one gripe with Warmahordes (and it's a small one) is that you can't really have a custom army, like you can with Space Marines or Eldar or whatever. Cygnar's always Cygnar, and you can't really change that. Also, no generic warcasters/warlocks, but I understand that would probably be impossible to do with the ruleset. So my minor complaint isn't too important. The rules are nice, the models are nice, and I'm just oblivious to the fluff so it's neutral for me.

Mantic and MERCs seem fun too.

Swordwind wrote:My one gripe with Warmahordes (and it's a small one) is that you can't really have a custom army, like you can with Space Marines or Eldar or whatever. Cygnar's always Cygnar, and you can't really change that.

I don't know that that's ENTIRELY true... You can do a lot within the framework of the existing stuff, and the conversion rules for tournaments aren't as restrictive as one might think at first glance.

Hammers Slammers. New multi-scale future combat game. Saw it yesterday. Add that to the list (and it has its own background, properly written by a real novelist, not by a man-child with gruesome rape/murder-fantasies.

They made a Ringo miniatures game?

I never could get into warmachien and hordes, overall I enjoy the visuals of the game and the miniatures but the rules really keep me from playing, which is sad. I have a huge khador army, farrow pig mercs and previously had an everblight army on top of that. As a company PP rocks, I've had great experiences with everyone I've dealt with from their company. Unlike GW, PP seems to "get it" in terms of promoting their company and actually listening to their customers. I really applaud that aspect of their company, however I just can't stomach the game system.

My biggest dislike of the game is casters, too much of the game focuses on them. They are a disgustingly powerful model for starters but also create an autoloss should they be killed. (regardless of how many other units you may still control) Their abilities and feats create a huge swing in the game play, which is great if you like overpowered combos of doom, but my personal preference has always been for more balanced gameplay. I also dislike the fact that you cannot change any of the unit equipment options.

I think it's a step up from 40k, but not by much. My favorite GW game is spacehulk, I' have two huge armies for 40k (Templars and Tau) but I rarely ever play them as the 40k rules system is absoluetly terrible.

As neither of those games seem to work particuarly for me (outside of spacehulk) I've gone back to playing battletech, which even after 25 years of playing is still a top notch game. In the last month I've squeezed in more battletech games than I've played in two years with WM and 40k combined. I think they have a great system with clear mechanics and a strike good balance with every player having the same game options.

I'm also a huge fan of Okko, the only issue is the lack of people who play it. It's a great game and has some pretty cool characters driven scenarios.

Agreed. TTGN is a great place to find out about new stuff coming out, The minatures page is also another good resource.

biccat wrote:

Manchu wrote:

biccat wrote:People are complaining about the GW price increases and lack of sales to Oceania...so you started a thread to bash Privateer Press?

Did you read the OP? No? Okay, here it is again: a lot of folks are claiming they will quit GW in favor of PP but PP is not actually a viable alternative to GW for everyone.

I did read the OP. It's some terribly offended poster ing about how he doesn't like GW but wants to play GW games because he doesn't like other games.

So you don't like Privateer Press's miniatures, why start a whole thread on it? You're not asking for alternatives (you've dismissed them all already), you're not asking for a solution to GW's "war on customers." You're not asking for other people's opinions on the models, nor are you asking for a defense from PP apologists. You're just whining about how PP isn't GW.

1: Play something else.
2: Suck it up and put up with GW's gak.
3: Stop playing.

/thread.

Ouch, total ownage. Although I'm sure by this point you've been warned/banned all "fair and balanced" like.


Anyway, there are plenty of WTF sculpts (although the Circle for the most part is quite good IMO), and the IP has still failed to grab me after 8 years of playing the game (holy crap, I'm getting old), but I stick around for the rules. Not to say that they don't occasionally screw up (ironically, the most horribly balanced model in the game is called Triumph), but having a set team write and playtest all the rules appeals to me far more than GW's approach.

Manchu wrote:The list I'm getting together is for in-print games with rules and associated miniatures. So Brushfire would go on but Confrontation or AT-43 sadly would not. Neither would D&D or Star Wars minis, for that matter. Generic rulesets and miniatures lines don't make the cut, either.

Why not? I mean you with this cut are probably cutting some of the best miniatures and some of the best games... isnt alternatives what you are looking for?
Its like you only want alternatives that are a copy paste of GW biz model and thats rather castrating if you ask me.

For example theres rulesets that you can play with ANY miniature form ANY manufacturer and some manufacturers that make superb sculpts but have no game associated I dont understand why those are auto excluded from alternatives. PArt of fun of gamming is finding games and minis that can go togheter

I believe your still suffering from the GW syndrome that everything should be done inhouse but thats not the only way to look at things.
I'm going to be honest with you... You look like your still enchanted with GW as the only one, as such, why not stick with it? Seems pointless to force yourself into something your not really ready to do.

I agree with Navarro. Not all companies are big enough to make rules and miniatures. Generic systems allow you take rules you like, models you like and make a background that interests you. With the internet making it easy to get a huge range of models many companies don't bother to make models, it's not neccessary.

Here's something that fits probably none of your criteria
(well, except maybe rules are free):

http://www.wrg.me.uk/HISTORY/HOTT2.pdf

Hordes of the Things is a generic fantasy ruleset based on
DBA. All armies can have the same elements in them, but not
every army can have every element. It's up to the player (and
points restrictions) to decide what a Dwarf army can or can't
have.

I've painted up some Dwarves for it using Mantic's line, but the
system is open to you using what you want.

HoTT is a good game if your looking for competitive play as it is very balanced. Not so good if you want a narative game as everything plays the same.

NAVARRO wrote:I'm going to be honest with you... You look like your still enchanted with GW as the only one, as such, why not stick with it? Seems pointless to force yourself into something your not really ready to do.

I'm disappointed that you're replying without really following the thread closely. First, as I've stated multiple times, I'm not personally disenchanted with GW. I'm interested in new franchises for their own sake. The idea that PP's lines or any others could simply replace GW is ludicrous to me. But many people post as if that's the answer to GW's business practices. Second, the criteria I listed fit the discussion as it developed on page 1: i.e., the three parameters were rules, models, and fluff. You can't rate generic rules for models or generic minis for rules and fluff. I think we can't include OOP stuff, either, as getting into a discontinued game as a new player hoping to get your friends into it is, well, unlikely at best.

But that's the problem Manchu your trying to rate games by Gw criteria. Obviously nothing is going to equal it. However what GW does isn't the only way.

Generic games don't need to be rated by models or fluff you are free to use any you like. Since there are so many options it would be hard for them not to succeed in fluff and modeling categories.

When I play FWC I use miniatures that I like, and make a setting that I enjoy. Therefore in my game the models are of a high quality and I love the fluff. Whether this is how the game was designed is irrelevant the way it affects me is exactly the way it would if it was a game designed for those models in that setting.

4M2A wrote:But that's the problem Manchu your trying to rate games by Gw criteria. Obviously nothing is going to equal it. However what GW does isn't the only way.

Generic games don't need to be rated by models or fluff you are free to use any you like. Since there are so many options it would be hard for them not to succeed in fluff and modeling categories.

One more vote here for generic games or combining your games until you get a resuilt that you like.

As to generics, there are great sets our there that let you use whatever minis you want, many of which are free open source games. Song of Blade and heroes (not free), WarEngine(free) spring to mind, but there are many others.

One nice thing about WHFB, 40k, or even WarmaHordes is that they are so deeply developed with so many different races and units, that you can find a place to incorporate nearly any models. Mixing and matching figs and rulesets opens a new level of enjoyment for those who don't feel that one closed system meets all their needs.

The difficulty of course is finding like-minded people to play against, but if I can do it so can you!

Manchu wrote:

NAVARRO wrote:I'm going to be honest with you... You look like your still enchanted with GW as the only one, as such, why not stick with it? Seems pointless to force yourself into something your not really ready to do.

I'm disappointed that you're replying without really following the thread closely. First, as I've stated multiple times, I'm not personally disenchanted with GW. I'm interested in new franchises for their own sake. The idea that PP's lines or any others could simply replace GW is ludicrous to me. But many people post as if that's the answer to GW's business practices. Second, the criteria I listed fit the discussion as it developed on page 1: i.e., the three parameters were rules, models, and fluff. You can't rate generic rules for models or generic minis for rules and fluff. I think we can't include OOP stuff, either, as getting into a discontinued game as a new player hoping to get your friends into it is, well, unlikely at best.

How can you be interested in rating new fresh options if your only stuck with the GW Biz model? Thats why I say your criteria/taste is someway hostage of GW and that you seem not trully commited in finding new things under a new fresh prespective... Thats why I say your porbably not ready to look into this seriously.
GW was probably the first to implement the "do it all and sell all " but before them and also after them theres a interesting scope of options that you can explore that dont follow this model.

Its like you want to rate/find alternatives based on what you already like and dont want to change... and in the process discard all that doesnt follow GW model.
Theres cool games, cool minis and cool fluff, sometimes all is blended in one banner, other times these companies establish partnerships and even if they only produce one thing, lets say rules other companies partner up with that system and produce minis... its all part of the wargamming scene and IMO you cannot get to a good wider result if you auto exclude a world of options just because its not how GW did it.
See my point?


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4M2A wrote:But that's the problem Manchu your trying to rate games by Gw criteria. Obviously nothing is going to equal it. However what GW does isn't the only way.

Exactly how I tried to post in my arcaic english, thanks

NAVARRO wrote:Its like you want to rate/find alternatives based on what you already like and dont want to change... and in the process discard all that doesnt follow GW model.
Theres cool games, cool minis and cool fluff, sometimes all is blended in one banner, other times these companies establish partnerships and even if they only produce one thing, lets say rules other companies partner up with that system and produce minis... its all part of the wargamming scene and IMO you cannot get to a good wider result if you auto exclude a world of options just because its not how GW did it.
See my point?

Nope, but at the same time you have not provided links to these combined systems so that we can evaluate them. There are plenty of places to go that do the all inclusive diner, and while I know there are quite a few out there I'm always open to trying a new one. For me a good example is Black Scorpion with their newly released Cutlas game, which I have bought into.

Well actualy I did mention Future war commander. Their site has many links to companies that produce suitable models, most of which they have produced rules for. The site also has fan rules (perfectly balance because they use the FWC formula) for many other ranges.

Im a fan of songs of blades and heroes (fantasy skirmish)... they have other several books (scifi, dungeons etc) and Im looking into Gruntz atm for my 15mm but I think Im going for another ganesda book for the scifi skirmish.

These "songs" books you dont have limits of minis manufacturer or even scale... yet some manufacturers develop minis just for those books... heres one... http://www.splinteredlightminis.com/druidschildren.html lots of 20mm for a song book....

I didn't see Heavy Gear on your list (Balance must be busy this weekend!) so I'll pop that one in. Its in print, has 15 years worth of fluff/development since its first edition, and has a line of nice anime inspired minis for most of the core factions. The books are also generally done with high production values that you may be used to so you wouldn't be buying something that looked like it was designed on a windows 95 pc and photocopied at Kinkos. While most people obviously feature lots of gears in their army (hey, it is the titular war machine after all!), there are rules for using tanks, infantry, giant mechwarrior type robots called striders as well as airstrikes and offboard artillery.

@NAVARRO: Yes, I understand. I just don't think it's really relevant.

Whether or not GW was the first company to tie rules, miniatures, and a line of models together or not (I mean, it's easy to remember the most successful example that's still around), the practice is not really a "GW business model." It's just a generic business model for creating a miniatures wargaming franchise. In the days before, well, now, most miniatures wargaming could be classified under the "historicals" umbrella. In these case, producing franchise-specific rules and setting made no sense. I mean, any two Panzers are still Panzers. It's just a question of which sculpt is better and which is cheaper, etc, as well as finding a scale that you want. Similarly, no one has the exclusive rights to the Napoleonic Wars.

At least for me, historicals are not interesting in the slightest. I'm interested in Fantasy and Sci-fi. This is where a meaningful division between franchise-specific and generic develops. Some people like sci-fi period: Wells, Huxley, Asimov, Heinlein, Bradbury, Dune, Star Trek, Star Wars, Battlestar Galactica, Babylon 5, V, Firefly, whatever -- they'll take any of it and all of it. On the other side of the spectrum are people who like sci-fi because of specific series or franchises. Not everyone who enjoys Firefly is going to get into S:TNG. They're very, very different worlds, after all.

Now if I have a miniatures ruleset that can handle Star Trek as well as Firefly, great. Some people will love that. Thankfully, they can probably find miniatures from companies that only make miniatures to do either, as well. In fact, some of those people might want to use their generic rulesets to combine the Star Trek and Firefly worlds into one gaming universe. Fine, they can do that and maybe they even have a small group of friends that are interested in the same amalgamation. But there are a lot of people out there who don't like the idea of that kind of mishmashing. Extrapolating further back, there are many people who don't like the idea of genericized rules because the outcome always tends to feel like mishmash.

Next, let's consider an important aspect of wargaming -- actually, it's the reason we're all here. In other words, shared experiences. On sites like DakkaDakka we have people from all over the world who have been inspired somehow by the rules, models, and/or fluff of (predominately) Warhammer 40k. This franchise has attarcted tens of thousands of people, many thousands of whom are nearly daily participants in the discussion here.

Conversely, I doubt my Star Trek/Firefly crossover miniatures game forum would get much traffic. Oh, there are a few of you out there who would eat it up, I'm sure. (If the internet proves anything it's that there are at least two people who are into anything.) And the seven of us would be pleased as punch. That's fine and it's not a bad thing that generic rules and generic(ish) miniatures exist out there so that these small communities can form and, maybe in some cases, even thrive.

But let me reiterate that I'm not just talking about strange combinations of pre-existing franchises into a minatures wargame. The overarching point is that a system that is generic enough to handle franchises that are completely different will certainly please fans of generic sci-fi. It will not please people who are interested in something more original or distinctive. In the world of RPGs, this is why I can't get into Savage Worlds, even though I think the rules themselves are quite good.

4M2A wrote:HoTT is a good game if your looking for competitive play as it is very balanced. Not so good if you want a narative game as everything plays the same.

It's narrative if you make it narrative.

Of course that requires a bit of imagination and effort.

Updated List (with links for the "sheltered gamers")

- PP
- Infinity
- Malifaux
- MERCS
- Rezolution
- Battletech
- Heavy Gear
- Urban War/Metropolis
- Cutlass!
- Hisroricals (including FoW)
- Secrets of the Third Reich
- Incursion
- DUST Tactics
- Firestorm Armada, Uncharted Seas, Dystopian Wars
- Leviathans

Cool job Manchu, at least it's starting to come together. Is it worth changing the title (again!) and cement the list for the uninitiated in the first post so that it is easy to find, also with a cleanup the results could be stickied as a resource to point to?

Done and done.

Although I still think people should be allowed to give their honest opinions of non-GW games in this thread without it being off-topic or (as long as they're not breaking Rule Number One) being shouted down by fans of those games.

AE Bounty
http://darksondesigns.com/?page_id=135

AE WW2
http://darksondesigns.com/?page_id=54

Anima tactics
http://www.fantasyflightgames.com/edge_minisite.asp?eidm=16

Wargods of Aegyptus
http://www.crocodilegames.com/
(Nice alternative to WHFB- similar feel but a good game in it's own right)

Freebooter's fate
http://www.freebooterminiatures.de/en/catalog/freebooters-fate

Pulp City
http://www.pulp-city.com/

Brushfire
http://www.on-the-lamb.com/?q=node/52

CAV
http://www.reapermini.com/

Nuclear Renaissance
http://www.ramshacklegames.co.uk/nuclear/index.html

Just off the top of my head

Can you be more specific about "CAV"?

I've added the others.

Keep 'em coming people.

Yeah sorry couldn't find the right page on reaper's site.

This on has a brief description
http://www.reapermini.com/Games/CAV

This one has models
http://www.reapermini.com/Miniatures/CAV:%20Strike%20Operations

Manchu a good example of how some models do escape the traditional formula as you mentioned is Historicals... but funny that even there the FOW copy paste GW formula also had a good sucess hey? Could you say its a accurate list if only FOW should be on this list discarding all other options?
But never mind mate I was just trying to hint that theres more to wargammes than the GW formula.
AS such:

How about

Alkemy and Helldorado? Both had some bumps down the road but they are getting there again.

You should add Kings of War to the first post as an alternative to warhammer. I will probably be switching to Mantic's sci fi setting as long as I get to use my already bought GW IG.

Laughing Man wrote:They made a Ringo miniatures game?

David Drake, actually. It's even been vetted and approved by the author.

Ringo did the Posleen wars/ Legacy of the Aldenata series. It's one of my gaming goals to someday play either the Battle of Rochester or the Battle of Rabun gap in 6mm with Future War Commander or something. I just need to get about $300 worth of 6mm Posleen and scratch build a SheVa.

Personally I only got into Wargaming because of a love for GW's fluff, which I had been reading about/playing on DoW for about two years before I even touched a model.

Thus my loyalty is pretty much absolute

Okay, I've added CAV, Helldorado, and Alkemy.

Does anyone know the name of that undersea-themed game?

-Sphere Wars http://www.spherewars.com/ you need to know spanish for this one, but lots of minis, rulebook and universe.

-Zenit miniatures http://zenitminiatures.com/blog/




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I seen you updated zenit as spanish only but mind that zenit has rules in english.

Another one:

-Warcanto http://www.dwarftales.com/articles/10

I would say PP usually comes up in these discussions is because they are GW's biggest competitor (in that it wouldn't be difficult to find an opponent, a lot of the other games mentioned are quite niche in an already niche hobby), and in my opinion at least, they have the far better business model.

Cool, I added them. I've also added tags for description. It might be a good idea to have blurbs for each one from people who know about them.

NAVARRO, could you provide this for the Spanish-language games and any others? 42MA, could you provide any?

Just remembered another one from Tales of war miniatures... Ron and Bones ( skirmish with cards pirates game) http://www.taleofwar.com/shop/cms.php?id_cms=6

I had a look at warlands because I am in the market for something like that right now. But the lack of content on the website is offputting.
PP and GW have better websites than a lot of the alternatives, it has to be said.

Yeah, I like that sort of thing myself. I mean, come on:



!

Take a look at the Nuclear Renaissance link. The minis are okay, maybe what you're looking for. There are also some cool biker minis -- some which could be kind of post-apoc -- from Westwind.

(This thread is becoming pretty useful, to me at least.)

Here is a little known french game called Consortium. The game seems to be in it's infancy, so like so many of these things, it could blow either way. They arn't advertising much, which of course, can't be helping them....maybe they are simply concentrating on the French market.....anyways.....here are some of the miniatures, and a linky-poo










http://www.consortium-univers.com/boutique_us/new_crea_news_eng.cfm

Enjoy

Thanks, added.

I cannot for the life of me remember the sea-themed game. It has dudes that are encrusted with barnacles, etc., and a treasure-hunting faction. The company that makes them just released an undersea temple piece of terrain a couple of weeks ago. If anyone remembers please post!


Automatically Appended Next Post:
RE: consortium -- this dude is pretty gross . . . at 35mm, could be useful to Nurgle fans. Looking at that carapace on his back, maybe even people who are interested in counts-as genestealer cults . . .

I'll try and come up with some quick descriptions. Some of them are games I've seen but not had the chance to play. I'll PM the descriptions to you so I don't fill up this thread.

I have some more games:

Spinespur- Horror skirmish game. Very odd models
http://www.comfychairgames.com/home.php

Twilight- Saw this game at salute, uses an unusual stone throwing mechanism
http://www.hasslefreeminiatures.co.uk/range.php?range_id=64

Monsterpocalypse- A PP game. You control Monsters / Aliens / Giant robots and fight in a city
http://www.monsterpocalypse.com/

Any chance of getting a sticky containing descriptions and links to major non GW games?

Added them (Monsterpocalypse was already on). A sticky could work but I think an article could be better.

Keep 'em coming, mates!

Bushido
http://bushido-thegame.com/

Fantasy/Feudal Japanese themed skirmish game. The website is kind of poor right now, but some of the sculpts are promising, and the rules and stat cards are all up on the website. I'll definitely be keeping an eye on this one.

A French game, SMOG:

http://www.smartmaxstore.com/smog-a-victorian-fantasy.htm

Victorian Fantasy. Think Jack the Ripper, Sherlock Holmes and steampunk.

The minis are top-notch, but I believe they are 54mm resin (not sure). They are also very expensive. I believe it might be more in line with Inquisitor, than a skirmish game. The rules were just released last week.

I'm just adding it because it looks great, but I know it's more of a collecter's line than a wargamer's.

Manchu wrote:Does anyone know the name of that undersea-themed game?

Perhaps you're thinking of Shadowsea.
http://www.ganeshagames.net/shadowsea/

It's based on the Song of Blades and Heroes ruleset (by Ganesha games) and has an accompanying line of miniatures produced by Cavlacade Wargames.
http://cavalcadewargames.com/cavalcade/Dragonblood.html
The PDF is available from Ganesha and the minis and paper copy are available from Cavalcade.

I've not played Shadowsea, but my club plays Song of Blades at least once a month or more. For folks looking to dip their toes outside of GW and PP, they really owe it to themselves to drop 5 bucks and buy Song of Blades and Heroes. It doesn't have an acompanying miniatures line, but it's a really fun ruleset and one of the best points of the game is the ability to stat up whatever fantasy minis you want.
http://www.ganeshagames.net/fantasy/

I had not looked at this thread in a while. Lots of neat games that I did not know about.

I thought that I would add Atomic Cafe 1957 by Brigade Games.
http://www.brigadegames.com/mm5/merchant.mvc?Screen=CTGY&Store_Code=BGAHSL&Category_Code=BGADVAC57