Raging Heroes, having never before received a C&D from Games Workshop, were beginning to feel left out and low and behold, those nice flying monkeys GW laughingly refers to as a legal team were only too happy to oblige them.
The Lammasu head for the manticore was apparently sufficient to prompt a threatening letter. Now, no more Lammasu head.
Raging Heroes wrote:
No More Lamassu
posted May 19, 2011
It is with our deepest regret that we have to announce that the Lamassu head is no more part of our Manticore kit We recently received an email from a Games Workshop attorney claiming that our Lamassu head was too similar to their Chaos Dwarves' Lamasu and asking us to stop selling this head. At this point in time we don’t have the time to further investigate this mater and so we've decided to currently withdraw the Lamassu head from sale, either online or in shop. We are sorry if you were planning to get one. So please note that at this point in time THERE IS NO MORE LAMASSU HEAD available with our Manticore kit.
Like the cherry on the week's cake for the happy gang at Nottingham.
Good Grief.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Oh, here's the link btw.
So....does this mean that "not so obvious people" like scibor or avatars of war are gonna get hit? I can understand the chapterhouse case but raging heroes is a different ballgame
And why is it GW always sends C&D's to companies that can't afford to defend themselves? You don't see them going after Wizards of the Coast because their orcs are too similar to the birthmark on Jervis's (Pas devant les enfants! Mod.)
This is almost getting to the point where it would appear GW is attempting to ragequit the wargames industry by setting themselves on fire of sorts. It's almost like they "get off" on kicking people (loyal customers, employees, stockists, etc) to the curb.
Sooner or later, they'll fall on their own sword. It happens all the time. Their arrogance is the shield that keeps them from fearing the consequences of their malice.
GW can go ahead and think they're too big to fail, but when they intentionally diminish their customer base via pricing them out of the hobby more and more, year after year, jack around their distributors for fun and profit, and defecate all over their loyalists, not even their stockholders will give a damn about what their intentions were when the money is gone.
EDIT: One thing is for certain, they have been and continue to give us all the middle finger for our loyalty.
Does anyone have any pictures of the head? I'm just curious.
Really though, was this some kind of battle plan thought out at GWHQ? Attack the entire fan base on all fronts all at once?
I wonder if Kirby is some kind of corporate spy for another company, and is focusing on sinking GW, because things are really getting out of hand, at this point.
Isn't a Lamassu something taken from real life mythology? How can you copy-rite that?
You can't copyright (note spelling) the word Lamassu and they aren't trying to do that. They can, however, copyright their design of a model that they happen to call Lamassu. And if you copy the model's design it doesn't matter what you call it, it's not legal for someone else to copy their model design, which is what they are claiming has happened.
Griever wrote:Isn't a Lamassu something taken from real life mythology? How can you copy-rite that?
How can they even enforce this? They don't even have any Chaos Dwarf products.
I don't think they can enforce it. I also don't think Raging Heroes has the time or money to defend themselves. GW is just pushing around a smaller miniature maker.
Isn't a Lamassu something taken from real life mythology? How can you copy-rite that?
You can't copyright (note spelling) the word Lamassu and they aren't trying to do that. They can, however, copyright their design of a model that they happen to call Lamassu. And if you copy the model's design it doesn't matter what you call it, it's not legal for someone else to copy their model design, which is what they are claiming has happened.
I don't think he's on about the name, more the fact it exists in mythology. If there is a mythological description of a Lamassu's features, then what base do GW have to claim they own it at all? It's like trying to argue that you can't make a dragon because they look too much like GW's dragons due to having scales, reptillian features and wings (though I wouldn't put it past GW to attempt it, which is really, really sad).
"What are you making?"
"A medusa."
"What does it look like?"
"A woman with snakes for hair."
"OMFG WE MAKE A MEDUSA MODEL THAT IS A WOMAN WITH SNAKES FOR HAIR! CEASEANDDESISTCEASEANDDESISTCEASEANDDESISTCEASEANDDESIST!!!"
Griever wrote:Isn't a Lamassu something taken from real life mythology? How can you copy-rite that?
How can they even enforce this? They don't even have any Chaos Dwarf products.
I don't think they can enforce it. I also don't think Raging Heroes has the time or money to defend themselves.
And they're a French company, subject to a different set of laws than the companies currently involved in a legal battle with GW.
GW is just pushing around a smaller miniature maker.
Yes, because this is elementary school and GW's just a big bully. That comparison has never, ever, ever been made.
Do you really think if there was a company out there creating things similar to Privateer Press' warjacks, that Privateer Press wouldn't be all over them?
At the end of the day it comes down to this:
They're a company. They cannot call someone up and say "Hey guys, this is GW. Can you change your head to something else? It looks close to ours and that's not cool." You just don't see that usually done if you want an actual result to happen, instead of getting laughed at.
C&Ds are nothing but a warning of further action if steps aren't taken to remedy it.
Raging Heroes seem to be a classy bunch and have no interest in doing anything to upset the guys who produce the lines that they attempt to supplement.
Is it "not cool" that GW did this? Of course it's not. People liked the model and wanted it. That doesn't mean that GW's doing it out of spite or to "push smaller miniature makers around".
Right now, with these legal proceedings up in the air they can't do anything that makes it look like they're singling out CHS. Unfortunately, others are going to get caught in the crossfire.
I don't think he's on about the name, more the fact it exists in mythology.
I disagree, but either way, the point is, they CAN copyright their specific model design. No you cannot copyright the idea of the mythological beast's general makeup or its name, but you CAN copyright your specific version of it and THAT was the claim being made by GW.
In other words, for example, you can't copyright the word "cyclops" nor stop other companies from making one-eyed monsters, but you CAN stop them from making one that looks exactly like or too similar to YOURS.
Noisy_Marine wrote:And why is it GW always sends C&D's to companies that can't afford to defend themselves? You don't see them going after Wizards of the Coast because their orcs are too similar to the birthmark on Jervis's tiny dick.
Why? Because it's easy and cheap. Wizards are huge and have lots of money. These guys don't. Also, Jervis has nothing to do with the legal stuff.
I'd actually never heard of this company before, and the fact that they can't sell a single head (but can still sell the model) doesn't faze me whatsoever. It isn't really a big deal.
Noisy_Marine wrote:So what product does GW sell that actually resembles the lamasu from Raging Heroes?
There isn't one, because GW doesn't sell Chaos Dwarves.
Whether or not they sell it currently is irrelevant. It was in production at one point.
And for that matter, I'd suggest you look at Forge World's advanced order right now. There's Chaos Dwarfs there. There's also the Hellcannon, which is crewed by Chaos Dwarfs.
So I'm guessing you meant "GW doesn't have a Chaos Dwarf army", not that they "don't sell Chaos Dwarfs".
Noisy_Marine wrote:And why is it GW always sends C&D's to companies that can't afford to defend themselves? You don't see them going after Wizards of the Coast because their orcs are too similar to the birthmark on Jervis's tiny dick.
I think it would be safe to say that Jervis would have had absolutely nothing to do with this.
Brother SRM wrote:I'd actually never heard of this company before, and the fact that they can't sell a single head (but can still sell the model) doesn't faze me whatsoever. It isn't really a big deal.
Wow. Truly I hope that all situations you come across do not fall under your "It doesn't affect me, so who gives a crap?" attitude.
There was a post a while back that GW's ties with New Line (LotR and Hobbit) and video game companies is forcing them to be more aggressive.
With New Line if they don't keep their own stuff under wraps and protect their own IP how can they be trusted with the secrets and IP for a gazillion dollar movie?
WRT video games they have to show their partners they're protecting the IP they paid a licencing fee for.
Bottom line there might be more to this than GW being dicks.
Yeah it looks similar. Does this mean that GW can go and tell Reaper that their conventional Skeleton Warriors with spears look too much like GW's Skeleton Warriors with spears? Or maybe the faces on Reaper's vampires look too much like the faces on GW's vampire models.
It would be a little different is this was a model currently in production and in any way causing GW to lose money, but it is not
This is just another dickish move by GW, in a way I can't wait for them to fall on their arses and be forced to sell their IP/close shop/ whatever just so the shenanigans would stop.
Kirbinator wrote:
Wow. Truly I hope that all situations you come across do not fall under your "It doesn't affect me, so who gives a crap?" attitude.
If it was for something more significant than a single head on a single model, I probably would give a crap. If the entire company got shut down, I'd feel stronger about it. One part of one model isn't something worth Chicken Little-ing over.
Of course it looks similar; it's a lammasu head. Just as if you created horses that looked like horses, you can be pretty sure that they'd look similar to Glade Rider horses. Shocking.
Darth Bob wrote:Yeah it looks similar. Does this mean that GW can go and tell Reaper that their conventional Skeleton Warriors with spears look too much like GW's Skeleton Warriors with spears? Or maybe the faces on Reaper's vampires look too much like the faces on GW's vampire models.
Yeah it's a tough call. Lammasu are based on Babylonian sculpture which has been in the public domain for about 4000 years...
GW can claim things like the Space Marine armor are copyrighted and trademarked but this is a bit of a stretch.
Someone said actually there are more differences than similarities.
Have just been admiring how RH have adapted the double horn that you can see on the Assyrian sculptures. (see KK's pic above) Notably GW's only has one set of horns.
Tusks and a ring are the only real similarity. Again that could have been addressed sooner in the design process if there was a problem.
Do you really think if there was a company out there creating things similar to Privateer Press' warjacks, that Privateer Press wouldn't be all over them?
If said company was creating alt heads and weapons for their jacks? No. They wouldn't. PP also has a tendency to release their own conversion packs for models that use a similar chassis so that there is no need to convert. PP's requirement is that everything must be WYSIWYG. If the jack/infantry model is armed with an ax in the description, then they must needs be armed with an ax on the model, despite your conversion. PP also includes the proper base sizes for models, and even when a model has not yet been released for a particular unit or jack, you are still told how big a base to use (I'm looking at you, Mangler Squig.) There is honestly no excuse for a company producing a unit for it's game that has no description whatsoever for the dimensions of the model, when the rules for that game specify that model dimensions are vital for game play, then they go after companies who actually create the models that they should have made in the first place. Or, as more of a concern, those companies who simply build accessory packs.
Ah well. GW is the one creating the secondary market through their own actions. Perhaps this is indicative of serious Chaos Dwarves release? I guess we'll find out a week before it hits.
There was no design problem, it's just GW being douchebags and waiting for a small company to invest heavily in both time and capital and then sending a BS claim as it finally comes to fruition.
Kanluwen wrote:Whether or not they sell it currently is irrelevant. It was in production at one point.
Actually, no. That's not enough. Companies have to actively refresh copyright and trademarks. You can't just say "I made a similar thing twenty years ago, so you can't make it now." It is likely that GW refreshed their copyright, however.
As for the content of this article itself...are you angry? Upset? Then vote with your money, because message board griping won't do you a lick of good. Stop buying GW figures, start patronizing other companies, and you'll send a message.
SkaerKrow wrote:As for the content of this article itself...are you angry? Upset? Then vote with your money, because message board griping won't do you a lick of good. Stop buying GW figures, start patronizing other companies, and you'll send a message.
Agreed! Which is why I haven't bought anything GW in nearly a year and I have one of the now-limited-release Lamassus.
Kanluwen wrote:Whether or not they sell it currently is irrelevant. It was in production at one point.
Actually, no. That's not enough. Companies have to actively refresh copyright and trademarks. You can't just say "I made a similar thing twenty years ago, so you can't make it now." It is likely that GW refreshed their copyright, however.
I wouldn't be surprised. Supposedly FW's Chaos Dwarf line is going to be "pretty complete".
Honestly, I'm sure that Raging Heroes would win a court case. The question is, is it worth it for them? A small company being blocked from selling a single bit? I would wager not, so they take the path of least resistance and bow to GW instead of getting involved in a legal battle which could ruin them through court costs alone.
I can't believe that GW would even want to fight this issue. That old lamasu model in the picture is so hideous, I would think that they'd want everyone to just forget it ever happened and come up with something completely new.
(Quoted form the CHS discussion, posted by aka_mythos)
They're legally allowed to do what they did, even if GW says otherwise, so I'm not going into that. I'm going to talk about the ethics first. Its all variation on a theme, if people in the past had this same sort of perspective you're claiming, every representation of Jesus or whatever else in classic artworks would have to be entirely different. They aren't, and for the longest time there was actually the notion of a refinement of concepts, where there was the express expectation of portions of original works coming in some part from existing works. The ethical belief that Raging Heroes shouldn't have done this is an entirely fictitious notion that stem from year of companies like GW imposing a false sense of super entitlement.
Just because two things look alike doesn't mean the first instance is some how more in the right. IF, GW some how went to court and won, restitution and remedy would be sooooo drastically reduced because of the incredibly derivative nature of their work. I think people confuse alot of the subtleties here in that GW's representation of a Lamassu, isn't part of its IP, it can't ever completely be. There is a distinction between unique IP, and an original stylized version of a preexisting concept. Such a work is only really protected in its unique instance, such as stopping someone from recasting it or use without reinterpretation... or trade dress. Stylizing a lamassu similar to GW isn't the same as copying their exact interpretation; as it is as much a stylized interpretation to the original concept as it maybe from GW's.
The idea that because Raging Heroes made this *gasp* to provide a service and make money should have no bearing on this. At best this fact is only relevant so far as if restitution were a hypothetical possibility.
As far as the similarities between the GW model and Raging Heroes' the interpretations people have given are rather superficial, looking at only the similarities of specific features while disregarding many differences. First the most blatant thing is Raging Heroes' Lamassu model shares a common body with a Manticore model... GW's is a bull's body... by volume that's almost 80% of the model. The riders are distinctly different, that's another 10% difference. Then we have the heads... the only part people have bothered to talk about; how similar in size are the heads? The Raging Heroes' head has shorter horns; it has a mane and not a perm; it has braided beard instead of just a curly beard; it has adornment on the tips of its beard, GW's doesn't; it has forehead ridges, GW's doesn't; and it has protrusions that wrap the base of the horns, GW's doesn't. That means at best GW's claims hinges on only about 4% similarity. My tablet PC has more than that to a IPad. I would call that a passing superficial similarity and easily enough to say the remaining differences are a by product of common themes, inspiration, and use. Even if Raging Heroes admitted to trying to copy GW and to take their sales with this model, that is irrelevant and its an expectation of competition that competitors will try to match and surpass you... even still the similarities are too immaterial.
I think he makes a very valid point here, also if they are doing it for a future model producution, surely that is not allowed to be done since they have not even created or released it yet ?
Hello,
It is funny that they hit them and not Mantic for their Chaos Dwarf line, perhaps they did not want to take on a bigger player in the market is my guess.
Ghiest1 wrote:Hello,
It is funny that they hit them and not Mantic for their Chaos Dwarf line, perhaps they did not want to take on a bigger player in the market is my guess.
Regards,
Carl
I'd love to see GW try and take on Mantic.
...Now I'm picturing Ronnie battling his way through hordes of GW redshirts, to vanquish the Dark Lord (dutifully played by Tom Kirby) atop his mountain of money.
I just don't understand the method to their madness....they're going after the looks of models and somehow practically every one of Scibor's scifi models or every single one of AoW's models (ESPECIALLY the Dwarf Slayers and Ogre guy) slipped under their radar?
Darth Bob wrote:I just don't understand the method to their madness....they're going after the looks of models and somehow practically every one of Scibor's scifi models or every single one of AoW's models (ESPECIALLY the Dwarf Slayers and Ogre guy) slipped under their radar?
I think GW is just irritated that RH made a far superior looking Lammasu. Also, they're trying to destroy their competition via frivilous lawsuits, draining their bank accounts, rather than competing with them in the market.
I think the reason AoW has gone unmolested is because there is either a gentleman's agreement (felix and all) or GW is waiting until they make enough money that they can suck them dry when they eventually get big enough and have more money as a company.
Either way, GW picks and chooses who they bend over with their paltry little legal threats, and it's a sad day for all of us each time they knock over somebody who's just trying to give us all more variety and a better hobby.
I'm waiting for some egyptian toy company to kick in the doors at GW and nail a lawsuit to Wells' door for blatantly stealing their IP.
Half of the stuff in the new tombkings book looks like it came out of 'The Mummy' anyways. They shamelessly, and blatantly ripped off the Matrix also with the "Dread Knight". It's hillarious how hypocritical these jacks are and how they think they're the only ones entitled to be creative in this world or how it's ok for them to steal from others but you'd better not even think about using their crap as motivation for a new piece.
EDIT: It's also hillarious how everything in GW's fantasy line that you can find in other high fantasy settings looks identical. Their elves are deisgned the same, their dwarfs the same, I'm pretty sure if other companies out there wanted to behave as GW does, they'd have 100's of lawsuits on their hands for ripping people off creatively.
I haven't bought anything from GW for about a year anyway, but this nonsense that seems to be GW's business model is pretty much making sure I don't go back to buying their product.
How is it GW has never been sued for ripping off Dune?
The explanation for the situation is glaringly obvious and has been implied already by more than one poster on this thread:
Forge World clearly has a Lamassu in the design stages drawing on the same design cures of the original model that Raging Heroes has drawn upon for their design.
GW Legal has issued the C&D not because they believe they have a realistic chance of defending such a demand in court, but because they know that, if they didn't issue the C&D, then the FW model that's evidently in production will itself run foul of the potential for RH to issue a counter-claim of IP infringement. GW has followed the principle of the best defence being a good offence by getting its retaliation in first.
RH should not be intimidated into withdrawing the item from sale but, due to the C&D, should feel warned not to attempt a counter-claim when the FW Lamassu is released.
It might help if they renamed it the "Shedu" which, as anyone who's read the Wiki page will know, is an alternate name for the same creature specifically referring to the male iteration (as Lamassu sometimes refers to a female).
They've also ripped off Terminator. Humanoid, skeletal robots? Really GW? You came up with that all on your own, eh? I bet the concept for Tyranids also had nothing to do with HR Geiger's work on Aliens, nah, not a bit. Oh and vampire counts - at this rate, GW would insist the populations of Romania and Hungary along with the author of Dracula surely had a time machine built strictly to rip off their IPs and take them back in time.
Lets not get into how Warhammer Fantasy was ripped off entirely from things like oh I dunno, Tolkien, and D&D. Funny how back in the day they used to have that stuff in their crappy magazine.
I cannot believe they think they are the judge, jury, and executioner of IP infringement when they are perhaps the greatest corporate hypocrisy of such things.
I'm 100% sure if this went to court Raging Heroes would win.
A Lamassu is a well established piece of mythology. Next thing you know GW will send a C&D to Perry Miniatures because thier plastic horses look eerily similar to GW's plastic horses....
I think that once I get some more money coming in I will be buying some stuff from Raging Heroes - their stuff looks great.
Shame about the head being pulled. I would say it is another case of GW claiming what is not theirs to claim just to shut down the little guy. As has been pointed out this particular monster has clear design roots hundreds and even thousands of years old.
Is there any small companies GW is yet to screw over?
I know it's hard to say this, but if all the smaller companies banded together, they could easily overthrow GW.
To start with, they already have reasonable prices...
Damn GW. Damn them to hell for daring to protect their IP like they are required to do if they wish to retain ownership over it!
The dirty little Poppinjays!
Knocking over the little guys via threats of indefensible lawsuits is hardly defending your IP.
The perhaps the 'little guys' might wish to try I dunno, coming up with something not deliberately aping an existing design? I think it's called 'original work' or something.
And indefensible lawsuits? Indefensible in what way? Because as I mentioned, if you don't protect your IP, you can lose it. So I can only think it's indefensible for those aping an existing design to make some cashmonies with minimum effort?
Back at you with just about everything GW has ever done as already said
Again, why just pick on this particular model when there are example that seem to violate GW's IP rights more clearly and why not have brought the complaint before the model went into production?
The RH Lamassu was readily seen in concept and pre production.
This is a big stinky pile of manbull poo.
Damn GW. Damn them to hell for daring to protect their IP like they are required to do if they wish to retain ownership over it!
The dirty little Poppinjays!
Knocking over the little guys via threats of indefensible lawsuits is hardly defending your IP.
The perhaps the 'little guys' might wish to try I dunno, coming up with something not deliberately aping an existing design? I think it's called 'original work' or something.
And indefensible lawsuits? Indefensible in what way? Because as I mentioned, if you don't protect your IP, you can lose it. So I can only think it's indefensible for those aping an existing design to make some cashmonies with minimum effort?
GW don't have the copyright on the Lammassu design. As pointed out earlier it is a mythological creature from 3,000 years ago. If GW can make a version of it and make cashmonies so can someone else.
If GW wanted their version to be copyrightable they should have exerted a bit of artistic creativity and produced something original and distinctive.
I am enraged by this like most people here (even while owning a Raging Heroes Lamassu and manticore, well I play Chaos Dwarfs and Dark Elves).
I am also convinced that Raging Heroes would have a good chance in European courts to defend this. They rather decided to comply to GW's demand. To better understand this, you need to know some background about the Manticore/Lamassu kit.
The original kit is the Manticore, obviously a creative design based on Greek mythology and not IP protected by anyone else.
Raging Heroes is encouraging customers to make suggestions for future models (if the miniature is actually made, the one suggesting it gets a free copy).
Grimstonefire suggested to make a Lamassu alternative head. This was easy to do (just design and produce another head) and Raging Heroes decided to do it and did it quickly. This was not a complex year long development process, just an easy bonus (easy if you have excellent designers and sculptors that is). They certainly had a lot of extra sales because of the extra head (me and a friend bought both Lamassu and Manticore). The people most eager to get a Lamassu already bought it, with more but less orders coming in after the first wave. To continue the sales after GW's C&D letter would have required a considerable amount of time, money and stress, and Raging Heroes decided that it was just not worth the time, money and hassle.
The damage is certainly bigger for GW than Raging Heroes, but as said before, GW seems to have made that preparing a Lamassu release for the Warhammer Forge Chaos Dwarfs. Sorry for all late-comers who wanted to buy the model.
Kanluwen wrote: Do you really think if there was a company out there creating things similar to Privateer Press' warjacks, that Privateer Press wouldn't be all over them?
Quick, someone warn PP before Mage Knight is allowed to be sold by Wizkids again!
Sorry, Kan, that doesn't hold water, because someone WAS for much of the early 2000's. In fact, they did it BEFORE PP(IIRC).
Kanluwen wrote:
Do you really think if there was a company out there creating things similar to Privateer Press' warjacks, that Privateer Press wouldn't be all over them?
Quick, someone warn PP before Mage Knight is allowed to be sold by Wizkids again!
Well.
That's definitely...special.
Kind of like a cuter warjack?
Kanluwen wrote:
Do you really think if there was a company out there creating things similar to Privateer Press' warjacks, that Privateer Press wouldn't be all over them?
Quick, someone warn PP before Mage Knight is allowed to be sold by Wizkids again!
Well.
That's definitely...special.
Kind of like a cuter warjack?
Kind of. They're called Steam Golems and there's about 7-10 different varieties(including named character ones). In MK, they're about 1 3/4 to twice human height(about the difference between a human and a Light Jack or Ogrun).
Here's one converted for IK RPG I found on the PP boards:
I never really encountered Mageknight, so can't say on that matter.
Were they before or after IK/Warmachine?
Mage Knight started in 2000(not sure which expansion first had the Golems or steampunk stuff, though, so not sure when it was intro'd, may even have been the original set). PP was started in 2000 and I'm pretty sure had their first release for IK in that year, too. So, it boils down to when the Steam Golems were added(which as I said, I don't remember when they were intro'd), but basically, they were contemporary to each other.
Pretty pathetic of GW. The only similarities beyond that of your typical Lammasu are the grumpy face and tusks. Raging Heroes didn't even mount a dwarf on it.
Problem is GW will be encouraged to keep on doing this if companies fold so quickly to the slightest pressure. I guess RH aren't in a position to take it to court even if they would clearly win, because that requires money being laid out even if you can recover it later. Damn GW.
Someone in GW customer relations really needs to communicate to the legal team how damaging this kind of aggressively litigious behaviour is to their small, vocal and interested fanbase.
Da Boss wrote:Someone in GW customer relations really needs to communicate to the legal team how damaging this kind of aggressively litigious behaviour is to their small, vocal and interested fanbase.
You say that as if their customer relations people see this stuff as damaging.
I really, really don't understand why a whole bunch of indy miniature manufacturers don't pool their resources to retain a lawyer to give GW a bloody nose on a few key cases. Raging Heroes, Chapterhouse, probably soon Mantic, etc... With a bit of negotiation and a nice choice of cases (this would be a great one for analogous works, Chapterhouse for compatible works) they could probably fend GW off to arm's length...
...and then swoop in to take away the droves of customers who would gladly buy figs for half the price that GW offers.
Da Boss wrote:Someone in GW customer relations really needs to communicate to the legal team how damaging this kind of aggressively litigious behaviour is to their small, vocal and interested fanbase.
You say that as if their customer relations people see this stuff as damaging.
Hint: They probably don't.
IMOGW are more concerned with the large 12-year-old contingent than the veterans. I think that is a mistake, as I believe that veterans are important standard bearers to bring word of the wargaming hobby, and GW HHHobby, to the youngsters. That's partly because I got into wargaming through the traditional route rather than through GW.
Mark Wells seems to think one of these days Warhammer is just going to pick up like Pokemon did and spread like wildfire through the 12 year old "pocket money" teenage boy global community. It doesn't work like that. Pokemon is a one-shot purchase, it's like what $30-40 new for the gameboy? It's not a $1200 army with a complicated learning curve (for many 12 year olds) requiring a massive infrastructure to play and enjoy. You don't sell this subculture to people on the misguided notion that it'll turn into a huge fad that will span the globe. It's a culture, and as such, it REQUIRES the experienced, veteran community to thrive properly.
Kilkrazy wrote:
IMOGW are more concerned with the large 12-year-old contingent than the veterans. I think that is a mistake, as I believe that veterans are important standard bearers to bring word of the wargaming hobby, and GW HHHobby, to the youngsters. That's partly because I got into wargaming through the traditional route rather than through GW.
Nail + Head = This
If the vets are saying to kids 'dont get into it, GW are nobz' (and not the Ork type of nob!) then it looks bad. If a vet says 'I'll help you with an army list/show you how to paint/convert/whatever' It's good as it fosters the community. However that only happens in small clubs. Which need to be supported more. They are the future of the hobby, now GW stroes.
"Competitor" implies that Raging Heroes (or any of these start-ups that exist now) doesn't rely upon Games Workshop's continued existence to have a business.
Spoiler:
They, as things stand right now, do. By any definition, they are not a "competitor".
I do H.B.M.C. and while I bought one minus the Llam head I did think they were skating at the fringe. Note that GW aren't going after the whole mini, just the additional head that wasn't part of the original design plan anyway. I see this as being fall out from CHS's insistance on twisting the lions tail, but that's for another thread. There is no case to go after mantic as none of their sculpts are anything like the GW ones currently, and people would be best to remember that the Fantasy side of things is more of an open playing field due to the concepts being hundreds of years old in some cases (yes I am nonplussed by AoW too).
I think the point is made quite well, despite the outraged whining of some, if you're going to sculpt something make sure it is well clear of anything that GW has/had sculpted (lost lincences are a different matter).
There is a difference between "competition" between companies , and between products. Was Raging Hero's Lammasu a competition of a product with GW's Chaos Dwarf Lammasu?
Da Boss wrote:Someone in GW customer relations really needs to communicate to the legal team how damaging this kind of aggressively litigious behaviour is to their small, vocal and interested fanbase.
This is what I despise about GW, it's not their high prices which are a simple matter of take them or leave them, that's really up to them. It's the way I'm left feeling that if I make a purchase from GW then a part of it goes into their legal fund. I hate the idea that money I spend with a company is being used to support a hostile and unjustly aggressive attitude towards other companies which I also like. feth you GW.
LunaHound wrote:There is a difference between "competition" between companies , and between products. Was Raging Hero's Lammasu a competition of a product with GW's Chaos Dwarf Lammasu?
"YES "
I'm not sure it is in competition when there isn't such a product produced by games workshop?
I know, there was in the past and there could be in the future, but as it stands at the very least GW wouldn't be losing money off it as there's no Lamasu product that GW sells...
LunaHound wrote:There is a difference between "competition" between companies , and between products. Was Raging Hero's Lammasu a competition of a product with GW's Chaos Dwarf Lammasu?
"YES "
I'm not sure it is in competition when there isn't such a product produced by games workshop?
I know, there was in the past and there could be in the future, but as it stands at the very least GW wouldn't be losing money off it as there's no Lamasu product that GW sells...
That bothered me too. I mean, we know Forgeworld is bringing back Chaos Dwarfs, but do we have any info on if and when we see this Lamasu thingy? Is GW going after models they might produce themselves sometime in the future?
They're going after it because FW is probably making one, just like they went after all the Blood Bowl sites around the same time as the BB X-Box/PC game came out.
They are looking at re-booting the GW brand angry cows, there were WiP minis on show at the FW open day. Even if they weren't then GW still have the right to ask manufacturers that are producing items they consider on shaky ground to stop. The fact that RH pulled it has shows that they probably weren't that bothered as the initial frenzy of sales has passed. Remember it's only an add on head that wasn't planned on from the beginning, and it probably won't hurt RH in the long run.
H.B.M.C. wrote:You don't like these small mini companies, do ya Kan?
No, I don't like people calling them "competitors" when they're clearly not.
If there was no GW , there'd be no real demand for models from most of these smaller companies. It's a symbiotic relationship, not a competing relationship.
H.B.M.C. wrote:You don't like these small mini companies, do ya Kan?
No, I don't like people calling them "competitors" when they're clearly not.
If there was no GW , there'd be no real demand for models from most of these smaller companies. It's a symbiotic relationship, not a competing relationship.
Its a big IF isnt it? Unless you can predict the future you cannot know what would be our reality IF GW was not around... I can tell you this much... Toysoldiers/wargamming has been around long before 1974 and will still be around after all of us are dead... so yeah there will always be a need for toysoldiers and wargammes, its part of the human nature.
I would have loved they fought this, this particular figure is based on Hindu mythology, it is ridiculous that GW is pulling this, its like trying to IP Angels or Zeus or Odin or The Greek pantheon.
aka_mythos wrote:...next GW will try to assert a trademark on Jesus.
That one the can have. Just as long as he has a beard and sandals
The issue does seem to be heading towards anything Mythological with Skulls (that is the important bit that separated the RH Lammasu from the Babylon one...) is clearly a product of the Grimdark Fantasy setting. If RH had done the head without skulls would we be here now?
Avatar 720 wrote:I wouldn't be surprised if the FW head is an exact replica of the RH head, and they got rid of it so they could have it for themselves.
I would very much doubt it, you seem to forget that for all GW/FWs faults they do have a group of very good sculpters. I love all this emo whine that accompanies these nuggets of news.
Avatar 720 wrote:I wouldn't be surprised if the FW head is an exact replica of the RH head, and they got rid of it so they could have it for themselves.
I would very much doubt it, you seem to forget that for all GW/FWs faults they do have a group of very good sculpters. I love all this emo whine that accompanies these nuggets of news.
I wasn't being serious. I do know that GW/FW can create good sculpts and I would prefer it if you didn't refer to negative comments as "emo whines".
Avatar 720 wrote:I wouldn't be surprised if the FW head is an exact replica of the RH head, and they got rid of it so they could have it for themselves.
I would very much doubt it, you seem to forget that for all GW/FWs faults they do have a group of very good sculpters. I love all this emo whine that accompanies these nuggets of news.
For all their great sculptors they've created some alarming gak too.
Awww c'mon KK, trotting that out is just rude. I know that a trick was missed with that one, Timone ran away scaring the sculpter leaving him unable to complete the job for laughter
I for one am glad that RH didn't contact the leeches... nah that's not right, the vampires... no still not there, aha Lawyers. This way they can spend the money not wasted on them on shiney shiney new toys for us
I don't countenance the point that GW is perfect, but there are times to pick and choose your battles and for RH this wasn't one of them. @Avatar 720, negative comments are fine, whining is just so common now that it's boring.
Kanluwen wrote:If there was no GW , there'd be no real demand for models from most of these smaller companies. It's a symbiotic relationship, not a competing relationship.
I see them more as a pox upon GW's house, personally, and a welcome one at that.
H.B.M.C. wrote:You don't like these small mini companies, do ya Kan?
No, I don't like people calling them "competitors" when they're clearly not.
If there was no GW , there'd be no real demand for models from most of these smaller companies. It's a symbiotic relationship, not a competing relationship.
This is BS. Get the facts straight:
The demand for Fantasy miniatures started with D&D, followed by other RPGs. GW started as a store and importer for D&D and decided to make its own miniature range for those games (after Ral Partha and others showed how successful you could be with it). So GW basically grew by exploiting the popularity of D&D. Since then there has been a steady demand for fantasy miniatures, some for wargaming, some for RPGs, some for painters and collectors. Raging Heroes clearly makes miniatures for painters and collectors, being too delicate for the average wargamer. Have a look at the Coolminiornot store to see more miniature ranges of that kind.
H.B.M.C. wrote:You don't like these small mini companies, do ya Kan?
No, I don't like people calling them "competitors" when they're clearly not.
If there was no GW , there'd be no real demand for models from most of these smaller companies. It's a symbiotic relationship, not a competing relationship.
H.B.M.C. wrote:You don't like these small mini companies, do ya Kan?
No, I don't like people calling them "competitors" when they're clearly not.
If there was no GW , there'd be no real demand for models from most of these smaller companies. It's a symbiotic relationship, not a competing relationship.
Oh look. A cleverly worded personal attack, that when looked at in quotes isn't so cleverly worded.
But really. Despite what Kroothawk says, how many of these companies were there "filling the demand for Dungeons and Dragons models"?
Facts are, these companies rely on GW's customer base andGW's games for business.
No, it's not a personal attack at all. I believe, that you believe, what you said was true. Hence, it was not a personal attack, simply a factual statement.
Unless you... you're not saying you don't actually believe the inflammatory, ridiculous things you say, such as just now, are you? Because they have a word for that.
Ouze wrote:No, it's not a personal attack at all. I believe, that you believe, what you said was true. Hence, it was not a personal attack, simply a factual statement.
Unless you... you're not saying you don't actually believe the inflammatory, ridiculous things you say, such as just now, are you? Because they have a word for that.
Umm, I think you are reading too much into this, and it is indeed you who is in danger of living under a bridge. Inflammatary comments will garner you no respect, everone has their own PoV and you have done nothing to further this discussion.
(throws offal over the parapet)
On topic, people are being disingenuous if they belive that GW are not responsible for luring a large percentage of people into wargaming (whether they stay with GW or not is another matter) and there are companies that are well set to take advantage of that fact. Indeed a lot of them hint at the same aesthetics, which stands them in good stead. I will not say that I'm happy that RH have been forced to pull the Llam head, but I'm not surprised (cue the white knight boredom).
They probably should have looked into whether or not they could get a pro bono lawyer to defend them. Not sure how that works in France, though.
There are some vague similarities between the heads, but generally I don't think they are significant enough for GWS to have definitively prevailed in court.
Ouze wrote:They probably should have looked into whether or not they could get a pro bono lawyer to defend them. Not sure how that works in France, though.
There are some vague similarities between the heads, but generally I don't think they are significant enough for GWS to have definitively prevailed in court.
Agreed, but it would have still probably have cost them valuable time. I don't know what everyone elses view on the head is, but I see it as having been more like a splash release. I honestly believe that the vast majory of customers had already purchased the item that were of that inclination, due to the hype building upto that point.
Ouze wrote:They probably should have looked into whether or not they could get a pro bono lawyer to defend them. Not sure how that works in France, though.
There are some vague similarities between the heads, but generally I don't think they are significant enough for GWS to have definitively prevailed in court.
Agreed, but it would have still probably have cost them valuable time.
While that is clearly true, if you give the bully your milk money on Monday, he's going to be back on Tuesday. Defending yourself from IPtrolls is already a cost of doing business in other industries, and it looks like it is going to be one here too.
That's only true if you fly too close to the sun. As I see it the only thing it's cost RH is the (very) slow trickle of orders for the niche kit post the initial haste to purchase. All this IP stuff is getting old for me, there are companies that make a point of sailing too close to the wind. However RH isn't one of those and it is a genuine shame that it's come to this within the industry.
Kanluwen wrote:But really. Despite what Kroothawk says, how many of these companies were there "filling the demand for Dungeons and Dragons models"?
Facts are, these companies rely on GW's customer base andGW's games for business.
Let's look at Raging Heroes models to see if they make sense in and only in a Warhammer tabletop game:
Nope.
Nope.
Nope.
The others are so generic, they can be used for anything. Being delicate resin models though, they are not robust enough for usual tabletop games.
So your argument is invalid. And I don't like to be quoted deliberately out of context just to fit an invalid argument.
I guess GW are going to send a C&D to Babylonians next? I think Mesopotamia will quake with fear in the face of such false litigation.
Talk about hubris. Hubris before the fall...
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I guess I should read through the whole thread (or even the second page) before posting as Kyotosan beat me to it.
I guess it just goes to show how obvious the trolling that this C&D really is.
It takes some pretty large Lamassu testicles to think they can claim such as their own or even a copy of their own.
GW need to do damage control NOW. This crap is just getting well and truly out of hand. As if they are having a competition with themselves to see how the hell they can out do each previous PR fubar. It's pretty astonishing.
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aka_mythos wrote:...next GW will try to assert a trademark on Jesus.
That one the can have. Just as long as he has a beard and sandals
The issue does seem to be heading towards anything Mythological with Skulls (that is the important bit that separated the RH Lammasu from the Babylon one...) is clearly a product of the Grimdark Fantasy setting. If RH had done the head without skulls would we be here now?
So what you're really saying is, one day we'll be able to get a miniature of Jesus covered in skulls? Don't lie and get my hopes up.
Thought it was Michael that defeated ol' Lucy?
/Pedant
Syl-Iriah would be cool for Ariel, except she ain't in the current army bo...
oh, let me see, FW are going to bring out Ariel and she will be back in the new book when it comes out.
Its a Lamassu. It looks like any other fantasy Lamassu I've seen since D&D started putting black and white photos of monsters in their books.
I'd love to see GW get slapped down in court over this, probably not going to happen given the size of Raging Heroes. I'd also love to see GW actually replace their older models (and make new kits for orphan unit entries) instead of kvetching about 3rd party companies engaging in bloody capitalism, making money because they have a superior and readily available product.
From a GW annual report, by Mark Wells, CEO - age 48 making 280,000 GBp a year:
Our continual investment in product quality, using our defendable intellectual property, provides us with a considerable barrier to entry for potential competitors: it is our Fortress Wall. While our 382 Hobby centres which show customers how to collect, paint and play with our miniatures and games provide another barrier to entry: our Fortress Moat. We have been building our Fortress Wall and Moat for many years and the competitive advantage they provide gives us confidence in our ability to grow profitably in the future.
If that isn't paranoia, I dunno what is. His little "castle and moat" garbage is a cute little name for how they gak all over others trying to flesh out the hobby in their own ways by providing products and support where GW has failed to do so.
Kroothawk wrote:Being delicate resin models though, they are not robust enough for usual tabletop games.
Just on an off-related note regarding this comment, the models aren't exactly delicate. They're actually made of a pretty pliable and durable resin material that allows for alot of stress and is very resistant.
Evilgnome wrote:Yeh sorry guys, I have to agree with GW. The head is clearly derivative, even if the sculpt is better in execution and more beautiful by a long way!
And if you look at the manticore head it somewhat resembles a lion except they added horns and better details, better pull that too! And jeez these newly sculpted WWII German minis have trenchcoats and gas masks, clearly DKoK derivatives! Cease and desist!
I love the idea that the market for these companies wouldn't exist without GW. Jeez Kan... they've got you hook, line and sinker don't they?
Personally speaking I think that this Lammasu head does look like the GW one. The way its set up, the nose ring, everything about it is designed to look like a (much) better version of the old GW one. It is derivative. Of course, so much of GW's stuff is also derivative... so GW are just being hypocrites.
But I maintain that the reason for this C&D is not because it looks like GW's but because FW is about to make one/is currently making one, and GW don't want the competition (yes Kan - c-o-m-p-e-t-i-t-i-o-n).
H.B.M.C. wrote:I love the idea that the market for these companies wouldn't exist without GW. Jeez Kan... they've got you hook, line and sinker don't they?
Personally speaking I think that this Lammasu head does look like the GW one. The way its set up, the nose ring, everything about it is designed to look like a (much) better version of the old GW one. It is derivative. Of course, so much of GW's stuff is also derivative... so GW are just being hypocrites.
But I maintain that the reason for this C&D is not because it looks like GW's but because FW is about to make one/is currently making one, and GW don't want the competition (yes Kan - c-o-m-p-e-t-i-t-i-o-n).
Actually what i maintain is that unless you are willing to copy right Jesus (which personally i couldnt care less), you can not copyright that head as it is based on ifrit/jenie illustrations if i am not wrong.
H.B.M.C. wrote:I love the idea that the market for these companies wouldn't exist without GW. Jeez Kan... they've got you hook, line and sinker don't they?
I don't know if this is meant to be serious or not: but if you were to ask people buying Lammasus why they're buying them, I can be reasonably certain that it's not for RPGs--but for a Chaos Dwarf force.
I'm not saying it's a bad thing. I like seeing third party companies that do quality work. Raging Heroes does that, and I will say that it's silly that GW waited until after it was released to do a C&D or even say anything.
Personally speaking I think that this Lammasu head does look like the GW one. The way its set up, the nose ring, everything about it is designed to look like a (much) better version of the old GW one. It is derivative. Of course, so much of GW's stuff is also derivative... so GW are just being hypocrites.
Ehh. I always have a hard time reconciling this stance of "But GW did it once, so it's okay that everyone else copies them now!".
But I maintain that the reason for this C&D is not because it looks like GW's but because FW is about to make one/is currently making one, and GW don't want the competition (yes Kan - c-o-m-p-e-t-i-t-i-o-n).
They don't want the competition for a specific model.
Raging Heroes, in the grand scheme of things, is not a 'competing entity' with Games Workshop.
That's the problem I have with this idea of them being competition. Every so often there's models where you'll see competition between the two, but for the most part Raging Heroes is doing stuff that either GW doesn't or has done it in such a way that GW has no real basis to say "THEY'RE COPYCATS!".
Evilgnome wrote:Yeh sorry guys, I have to agree with GW. The head is clearly derivative, even if the sculpt is better in execution and more beautiful by a long way!
There's nothing stopping them making a 'Lammasu', just not one that looks so much like GW's version.
I'd argue the sculpt has more to do with GW's than the original Babylonian.
Lets identify what constitutes a Lamassu, as defined by those fine Babylonian statues.
Bulls body, Human head, Eagle wings. Curly beard, horns. These elements are not protectable.
GW's Lamassu: check, on all counts. Additional features: bull ring in nose, ornate banding on horns, feral teeth.
Bull ring in the nose is a intuitive and logical step from a bull's body. Many representations of Minotaurs (another bull-based mythological creature), and many beast-men, feature nose rings.
Banded horns: a staple of fantasy drawings as well - it helps to establish the creature as both intelligent and powerful. Hardly a unique GW thing.
Feral teeth: Again, a proven way to show bestiality; big pointy teeth.
RH's Lamassu on the other hand:
uses a Lion's body (well, a manticore's body, which is a lion's body) - but the suit is about the head. Has a mane. Has 2 sets of horns. Has a braided beard. Has skulls in its beard.
It is of significantly different proportion, posing, and skill of execution. I would argue that RH's lamassu is by far a more unique and distinct representation of a Lamassu than GW's.
It bears a passing similarity, but no more than should be expected for two sculptural works in the same scale of the same subject. It would fail miserably on the real test, of substantial similarity.
Trasvi wrote:
It bears a passing similarity, but no more than should be expected for two sculptural works in the same scale of the same subject. It would fail miserably on the real test, of substantial similarity.
I read what you wrote and took another look...
If you compare it to say, an original Babylonian Lammasu, I'd say it resembles the GW version more strongly than the Babylonian one, which has a hat for starters, and no horns to speak of.
Is it a result of 'convergent' sculpting? We'd need to see the original concept art to get a better idea, these things can happen on the subconscious level.
There are many options for making something uniquely different and not converging at something that resembles the GW version directly, just Google some Lammasu images and there's lots of variation beyond the features you mentioned.
Is it better executed and visually much nicer than GW's? Definitely!(I like it and if I had the $ I'd get one)
Are these guys the same as Chapterhouse, who only seem to make accessories for GW products, not in the least, there's plenty of originality here.
Complete BS. If an artist takes inspiration from another artists vision it is not exactly plagiarism. So apparently no other sculptor in the world is allowed to sculpt in a style similar to GW designs. If this were the comics industry then Jim Lee needs to sue everyone. Not to mention King Kirby. It looks vastly different to me, anyway. Artists be warned...you are not allowed to express yourselves in a similar way to the how GW artists express themselves. I think we should arrange a massive 90 day boycott of GW products sold from GW sources. That should humble those bloated fat bastards.
"If an artist takes inspiration from another artists vision it is not exactly plagiarism."
Wonderful truism/tautology there. Of course it isn't. Inspiration =/= Plagiarism. It never has.
I personally think that this Lammasu head was made to look like the old GW one. I also think that the Lammasu is a generic enough concept that GW shouldn't be able to claim ownership.
I'd agree that GW shouldn't be able to claim ownership of the term Lammasu, but their expression of it isn't the normally 'accepted' expression of a Lammasu.
EYEofTERROR wrote:Complete BS. If an artist takes inspiration from another artists vision it is not exactly plagiarism. So apparently no other sculptor in the world is allowed to sculpt in a style similar to GW designs. If this were the comics industry then Jim Lee needs to sue everyone. Not to mention King Kirby. It looks vastly different to me, anyway. Artists be warned...you are not allowed to express yourselves in a similar way to the how GW artists express themselves. I think we should arrange a massive 90 day boycott of GW products sold from GW sources. That should humble those bloated fat bastards.
Could someone make Awesomeman with the Superman logo with an 'A' instead of an 'S' and not expect legal action? Especially if that character was being used to sell comics?
GW artists aren't expressing themselves, they're making illustrations for copyrighted material, it's a job.
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Trasvi wrote:^^ Babylon Lamassu has horns sculpted onto his hat. The spiraly things.
..and so the Raging Heroes Lammasu is closer visually to the Babylonian or GW version?
If I were to pick an origin point for the Raging heroes Lammasu, it wouldn't be the Babylonian version, nor many of the others I've seen on the net.
At the risk of sounding stupid, couldn't Raging Heroes just change the name of their piece? At least half of the c&d seems to stem from the fact that the head is referred to as a lamassu head. Because the actual figures only share a very basic resemblance.
On a side note, the quote about GW and their "fortress wall and moat" is both disturbing and disgusting. What goes through their deranged minds? Do they think they've walled off all other game companies? Or, are the fortress and moat meant to keep us in?
Could someone make Awesomeman with the Superman logo with an 'A' instead of an 'S' and not expect legal action? Especially if that character was being used to sell comics?
Oh yes. There are many Superman clones out there; Supreme, Superior to name a couple. Superman is the most influential comic hero of all time. He is as generic as a Lammasu. Superman may as well be named Super hero. He is the template for countless heroes in comics. You're probably right about GW artists not expressing themselves through their art, too. What a ridiculous statement. Yeah...they would probably rather be sculpting precious moments dolls, they only work for GW cuz they have to.
EYEofTERROR wrote:Could someone make Awesomeman with the Superman logo with an 'A' instead of an 'S' and not expect legal action? Especially if that character was being used to sell comics?
Oh yes. There are many Superman clones out there; Supreme, Superior to name a couple. Superman is the most influential comic hero of all time. He is as generic as a Lammasu. Superman may as well be named Super hero. He is the template for countless heroes in comics. You're probably right about GW artists not expressing themselves through their art, too. What a ridiculous statement. Yeah...they would probably rather be sculpting precious moments dolls, they only work for GW cuz they have to.
Er, Supreme looks nothing like Superman, he looks much less like Superman than the Raging Lammasu looks like the GW Lammasu.
I love your take on the commercial art scene, it doesn't matter that the artist wants to be there, it matters that they produce for a client/employer.
Kilkrazy wrote:The GW lammassu is a lammasu with a scowly face and bristly beard.
The Raging Heroes lammassu is a lammassu with a scowly face and bristly beard.
The original lammassu has a calm face and non-bristly beard.
Are we to suppose that only GW are allowed to take a mythological creature and make its face scowly and its beard bristly?
What creative genius is required to "add moar skullz" to something and make it an original design worthy of protection?
If a Lammasu goes to war ( as the GW sculpt portrays ) im sure it'll be fierce and angry.
As far as we know the ancient none GW Lammasu are just "chilling" for the artists :'D
So if GW wants to win the lawsuit , they have to proof that the RL Lammasu never gets angry and never change its facial expression.
Guildsman wrote:On a side note, the quote about GW and their "fortress wall and moat" is both disturbing and disgusting. What goes through their deranged minds? Do they think they've walled off all other game companies? Or, are the fortress and moat meant to keep us in?
The latter. Or rather, they don't care if we stay in their games, but god forbid we want to find alternatives for their badly-sculpted, overpriced, over-engineered, misbegotten piles of excrement. Both GW rules and models are riddled with creative bankruptcy and tedious lack of ideas. Everything is paint-by-numbers, standardised, boring, drab, predictable. Every Fantasy army gets a giant war machine kit that has two or three options (Warsphinx, warp lightning cannon, arachnarok). Every 40k army gets a fast transport to enable mechanised play (stormraven, valkyrie, raider, stormraven again). You could probably build a computer algorithm to predict upcoming releases.
That's what the fortress is. The Fortress of Arrogance and Painful Mediocrity.
Agamemnon2 wrote:You could probably build a computer algorithm to predict upcoming releases.
Heh. The phrase "What will be the 'Oval base release' for the new Codex?" has become something we say quite a bit. We're always guessing what will be the next army to get an oval base model.
Agamemnon2 wrote:You could probably build a computer algorithm to predict upcoming releases.
Heh. The phrase "What will be the 'Oval base release' for the new Codex?" has become something we say quite a bit. We're always guessing what will be the next army to get an oval base model.
Next summer, we get Eldar. The oval base = new Avatar. and Phoenix
EYEofTERROR wrote:Could someone make Awesomeman with the Superman logo with an 'A' instead of an 'S' and not expect legal action? Especially if that character was being used to sell comics
Oh yes. There are many Superman clones out there; Supreme, Superior to name a couple. Superman is the most influential comic hero of all time. He is as generic as a Lammasu. Superman may as well be named Super hero. He is the template for countless heroes in comics. You're probably right about GW artists not expressing themselves through their art, too. What a ridiculous statement. Yeah...they would probably rather be sculpting precious moments dolls, they only work for GW cuz they have to.
It entirely depends on the level of similarity.
'Substantially Similar' is supposed to protect someone completely making a carbon copy of your work, and then changing minuscule details in order to claim originality. I can't write a book called 'Space Wars' about Lukas SkyStalker and his nemesis Death Vayda... unless it was a parody, of course.
If your hero was clad in Blue and Red, with the symbol being a red A on a yellow background in a diamond shape, and coming from the planet Argon with his weakness being Argonite... then yes, that would be substantially similar and you would get sued.
However, just because a hero comes from another planet, or wears his logo on his chest, or wears super-tight fitting clothes with his undies on the outside, doesn't make him a Superman clone, because all of those elements are iconic elements of super heroes. Superficially similar, but not substantially.
Same with the Lamassu. A lamassu by nature must have a bull's body, human head, and eagles wings. Following the ancient depictions of Lamassu, they also probably have a beard, and bulls horns. The beard probably isn't strictly necessary, but it serves well to make it appear more bestial (and also helps with the artisic issue of how a human head joins a bull body). The braided beard is also in the babylonian statues. The nose ring is a logical step from bull's body.
Fact is, the entire model is different in pose and nature. Most similarities are either intrinsic or logical. Significant original artistic effort went into designing the head - it is blatantly obvious that it was not cast off the GW one. In the end, the best GW could hope for is 'inspired by', which is perfectly legal for Raging Heroes to do.
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LunaHound wrote:
If a Lammasu goes to war ( as the GW sculpt portrays ) im sure it'll be fierce and angry.
As far as we know the ancient none GW Lammasu are just "chilling" for the artists :'D
So if GW wants to win the lawsuit , they have to proof that the RL Lammasu never gets angry and never change its facial expression.
Kanluwen wrote:Facts are, these companies rely on GW's customer base andGW's games for business.
H.B.M.C. wrote:I love the idea that the market for these companies wouldn't exist without GW. Jeez Kan... they've got you hook, line and sinker don't they?
Reminds me:
Tin Soldiers have been a major part of the toy "industry" for about 200 years, quite dominant before WW2. So dominant that Hans Christian Andersen made a fairy tale named "The Steadfast Tin Soldier" published 1838 ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Steadfast_Tin_Soldier ) ! No, there was no GW around then. They started freeriding on D&D's success more than a hundred years later. Now GW uses its anti-marketing, so that tin soldiers don't become a major toy again.
EYEofTERROR wrote:Could someone make Awesomeman with the Superman logo with an 'A' instead of an 'S' and not expect legal action? Especially if that character was being used to sell comics
Same with the Lamassu. A lamassu by nature must have a bull's body, human head, and eagles wings. Following the ancient depictions of Lamassu, they also probably have a beard, and bulls horns. The beard probably isn't strictly necessary, but it serves well to make it appear more bestial (and also helps with the artisic issue of how a human head joins a bull body). The braided beard is also in the babylonian statues. The nose ring is a logical step from bull's body.
Fact is, the entire model is different in pose and nature. Most similarities are either intrinsic or logical. Significant original artistic effort went into designing the head - it is blatantly obvious that it was not cast off the GW one. In the end, the best GW could hope for is 'inspired by', which is perfectly legal for Raging Heroes to do.
Looking at the proportions and details they could have been executed in many other ways but happen to look very close to the GW version. Including the rest of the physical appearance is neither here nor there, GW didn't ask Raging Heroes to scrap the whole miniature, just the bit that looked derivative.
As to your Superman example, I agree, but in the example of Supreme, he lacks the level of visual similarity to Superman (he looked more like Capt. Marvel) that these Lammasu heads have to one another.
Put the Babylonian image next to a picture of the GW Lammasu and the RH Lammasu and tell me which ones 'logically' belong together.
You could argue it's convergent, but frankly there are plenty of other roads they could have gone down visually.
Guildsman wrote:At the risk of sounding stupid, couldn't Raging Heroes just change the name of their piece?
The name should be the least concern. Lamassu is in the public domain. If you mean can they just change the name to make enough of a disconnect between their sculpture and GW's?-Not really. The issue GW has is supposedly an issue of the sculpts similarity, it doesn't matter what its called... the court would only care if Raging Heroe's sculpture is similar to such a degree that it could be a copy.
Kanluwen wrote:I'd agree that GW shouldn't be able to claim ownership of the term Lammasu, but their expression of it isn't the normally 'accepted' expression of a Lammasu.
Raging Heroes isn't exactly a normal expression of a Lamassu either. Its a manticore body with a humonoid bull head... that really makes it chimera of sorts and a big deviation from the concept.
H.B.M.C. wrote:I personally think that this Lammasu head was made to look like the old GW one. I also think that the Lammasu is a generic enough concept that GW shouldn't be able to claim ownership.
People are only looking at the head, because thats what GW stopped them from selling. The court on the otherhand would address how the completely assembled model appears. In that regard the two models have very little in common. A nose ring and similar but differently detailed horns and beard.
The concept of this being a Lamassu, a public domain concept, is only to Raging Heroes advantage... but lets ignore that contextual aspect... what GW's effectively doing is barring someone from sculpting a particular generic style of beard and decorated horns, and nose ring... without regard for the rest of the model. The fact is GW's complaint really hinges on such small details, relative to the whole model that their trying to monopolize three generic design elements.
Trasvi wrote:
Same with the Lamassu. A lamassu by nature must have a bull's body, human head, and eagles wings. Following the ancient depictions of Lamassu, they also probably have a beard, and bulls horns. The beard probably isn't strictly necessary, but it serves well to make it appear more bestial (and also helps with the artisic issue of how a human head joins a bull body). The braided beard is also in the babylonian statues. The nose ring is a logical step from bull's body.
Fact is, the entire model is different in pose and nature. Most similarities are either intrinsic or logical. Significant original artistic effort went into designing the head - it is blatantly obvious that it was not cast off the GW one. In the end, the best GW could hope for is 'inspired by', which is perfectly legal for Raging Heroes to do.
Add to that Raging Heroes Lamassu doesn't have a bulls body... that I think is a strong distinction between theirs and GW's.
H.B.M.C. wrote:"If an artist takes inspiration from another artists vision it is not exactly plagiarism."
Wonderful truism/tautology there. Of course it isn't. Inspiration =/= Plagiarism. It never has.
I personally think that this Lammasu head was made to look like the old GW one. I also think that the Lammasu is a generic enough concept that GW shouldn't be able to claim ownership.
Ayup. And personally I think the sculpt was different enough to say it wasnt the say anyways. It had WAY more detail on it and the horns were this side of awesome. In all honesty, this would be like them suing EVERY game maker that makes zombie minis, just because they are zombies
Guildsman wrote:On a side note, the quote about GW and their "fortress wall and moat" is both disturbing and disgusting. What goes through their deranged minds? Do they think they've walled off all other game companies? Or, are the fortress and moat meant to keep us in?
The latter. Or rather, they don't care if we stay in their games, but god forbid we want to find alternatives for their badly-sculpted, overpriced, over-engineered, misbegotten piles of excrement. Both GW rules and models are riddled with creative bankruptcy and tedious lack of ideas. Everything is paint-by-numbers, standardised, boring, drab, predictable. Every Fantasy army gets a giant war machine kit that has two or three options (Warsphinx, warp lightning cannon, arachnarok). Every 40k army gets a fast transport to enable mechanised play (stormraven, valkyrie, raider, stormraven again). You could probably build a computer algorithm to predict upcoming releases.
That's what the fortress is. The Fortress of Arrogance and Painful Mediocrity.
Christ. I want to sig that.
Though I would probably chop it down to:
[GW] don't care if we stay in their games, but god forbid we want to find alternatives for their badly-sculpted, overpriced, over-engineered, misbegotten piles of excrement. Both GW rules and models are riddled with creative bankruptcy and tedious lack of ideas.
That's what the fortress is. The Fortress of Arrogance and Painful Mediocrity.
Looks like the chapterhouse funny business is starting to strengthen some resolve out there in other areas. About time really. Once one of them makes a stand thats strong enough, the rest are willing to stand up.
And I'm sorry but they should have fought that one day one. GW is incapable of makine a sculpt like that IMO. But yes, depending on the usage, you can copyright a general term. I saw this in paintball when 2 events in different parts of the country wanted to call it D-Day, the one in oklahoma copyrighted the term so forced the Penn one invasion of normandy.
But depending on the scupt and its usage, it can be contested "yours is a mythical beast, Mines a pickup truck"
MeanGreenStompa wrote: It would seem an obvious path to create heads for things, bodies etc and then put up photos of 'some of the combinations you can achieve'.
I have seen a few Kickstarters follow this model. They make one model and then a totally unrelated 'upgrade' set which is not directly intended for the original model. And if people somehow combine the two kits, then 'oh well...'
And I'm sorry but they should have fought that one day one. GW is incapable of makine a sculpt like that IMO. But yes, depending on the usage, you can copyright a general term. I saw this in paintball when 2 events in different parts of the country wanted to call it D-Day, the one in oklahoma copyrighted the term so forced the Penn one invasion of normandy.
Unfortunately it takes money to do it. GW and their team of lawyers are more than capable of slowly bleeding small companies out of business. Reference the recent-ish Spots the Space Marine cases.
one day GW is gonna bite off way more then they can chew and go after someone they really shouldn't have and get their ass handed to them
(I'll bet Wizards of the Coast/Hasbro I am unsure if they are sister companies or Hasbro owns WotC)
This is really old news. Even the head being sold separate is old news. Not that I don't love a heavy dose of G-Dubya bashin' and watching all my favorite part time hobbyist part time I.P. lawyers debate Superman in a forum about alternative parts for a mythological creature. You got the fan boys coming out. The anti conglomerate crowd the whole gangs here....
GW is dying a slow death.... the more companies that come out with new products the more kickstarters we support the faster GW dies. I could care less if 1million knock off companies make after market parts or alternative models ... GW is looking more n more lazy and redundant with every release the old guard that made the company what it is have all moved on and all that's left is garbage, garbage models, ideas, and rules.
90% of their ideas are stolen anyway serves em' right. Trying to patent and I.P. Tolkien and many other peoples ideas and the ball to think they can hold rights to mythological creatures ...
Every time someone writes this, the Chaos Gods punish us by popping another accountant into existence. There's enough of us already, don't fill the world with evil.
Do you believe that GW still holds the same market share as they did in the late 90s early 00s?
They raise prices to cover loses to keep investors. While it seems like a really unstoppable Juggernaut really one truly good gaming company offering more than a mirror image of GW could really hurt them. How much longer will you pay the price you pay? What price hike will break you? I broke in 06 or 07 I'm waiting for all plague marine plastics... I have bought a GW model in 5-6 Years. I still own a ton but to actually buy an army.... not again.
Now as I was saying.... 1 good company or a couple more smaller ones like Corvus and another PP. GW would really have to rethink its entire game plan.
Just like any other false economy GWs shenanigans will have the roof caving in someday
austerity style or better like the paradox of thrift. Hire prices weak product shrinking market share... you'll understand someday. You'll not want to pay $70 for a codex and $50 for 10 models. The redundancy will wear thin. The next big thing wont look so cool...
. Seriously 
