It was a very well put argument. I didn't agree with the posturing on how great GW is/was, but I understand why he did that. Unfortunately I think this will fall on death ears.
I just saw that video a minute ago, some good points such as the photo removal, but I think GW will just simply gnore the video. If you got a retalier telling the big dog corporation what to do, then something is wrong.
Games workshop does what it does, it ignores outcries of critics and fans alike and plods along acroding to its plan. The day they have to compete is the day the company will be reborn to a working model. Until then their the tyranasaurus of the industry, powerful but the asteriod is coming, and it dosent seem like they are going to move.
Sadly I think the only change that will come from this video is GW saying OH YEAH TOUGH GUY?! and removing his right to carry product.
A Black Ram wrote: Seeing as big miniwargaming is, this is bound to get somewhere. If it gets to GW they will either ignore it or put a fence up on Miniwargaming.
If GW puts a fence on Miniwargaming, they will be shooting themselves in the foot big time.
A Black Ram wrote: Seeing as big miniwargaming is, this is bound to get somewhere. If it gets to GW they will either ignore it or put a fence up on Miniwargaming.
If GW puts a fence on Miniwargaming, they will be shooting themselves in the foot big time.
And that is exactly what GW want you to do. Eventually even the fanbois will feel as if GW has bent them over and given them a good seeing to every time they hand over their cash.
A Black Ram wrote: Seeing as big miniwargaming is, this is bound to get somewhere. If it gets to GW they will either ignore it or put a fence up on Miniwargaming.
If GW puts a fence on Miniwargaming, they will be shooting themselves in the foot big time.
Where have you been the past three weeks?
Where have I been? In the great outdoors of course! Its pretty, so many colors and detail........ Just kidding
Ok I'll rephrase! GW will be shooting themselves in the head! Since they are going to be closing off one of biggest small shop in Canada that has a BIG GW fanbase. And since MWG is big online, no doubt that other retailers will be angered and boycott GW products and GW will have to rely on brick and motar stores and soon fail on to itself. Thats my theory.
And since MWG is big online, no doubt that other retailers will be angered and boycott GW products and GW will have to rely on brick and motar stores and soon fail on to itself. Thats my theory.
I don't understand your theory. (firstly, GW won't cut someone off for offering something like this.) But why would you think other retailers would boycott GW?
Edit:
Just watched the video. Some points good, some iffy. Not compelling enough that it's going to have much of a chance of having an effect.
One critique I'd make is the background. Maybe they were trying to make a point shooting it in front of a wall of PP products, but it was a very skimpy display of product, not laid out well, and they were using a rack GW gave them for free to hold some of the PP boxes.) A better background might have been a full wall of PP and other non-GW games, if that was the point they wanted to make.
And that is exactly what GW want you to do. Eventually even the fanbois will feel as if GW has bent them over and given them a good seeing to every time they hand over their cash.
You keep your opinion and I'll keep mine. I've been with GW since 1995 and this isn't the first time they've been "controversial".
MeanGreenStompa wrote:I think this was very well put, entirely constructive and polite whilst making a serious point.
I liked that he stood in front of the PP games, perhaps to add a point...
He said it's the only angle in the shop where there's not a window or glare.
But yeah, it definitely was very well put and mostly constructive. The only thing I had issue with was his comparison of the two starter sets and backtracking a bit to say that "Well of course Privateer Press requires you to buy the same general material as well". It just interrupted the flow, that's all.
And that is exactly what GW want you to do. Eventually even the fanbois will feel as if GW has bent them over and given them a good seeing to every time they hand over their cash.
You keep your opinion and I'll keep mine. I've been with GW since 1995 and this isn't the first time they've been "controversial".
I have been playing since the very launch of 3rd ed, and while its not the first controversy, there not the only game in town anymore. Dont think they can be as arrogant as they were in the 90s and brush it off like lint on a shirt.
mikhaila wrote:And since MWG is big online, no doubt that other retailers will be angered and boycott GW products and GW will have to rely on brick and motar stores and soon fail on to itself. Thats my theory.
I don't understand your theory. (firstly, GW won't cut someone off for offering something like this.) But why would you think other retailers would boycott GW?
Because it is unfair, GW products are very popular at MWG and many other gaming stores. If GW closes shop on them then they will lose business just because they told GW that they aren't liking the way they are running things. I would be pretty mad if I owned a small flgs and saw that happen, if GW can't take critism from a retailer that sells their product, then I have no business with GW. I know that GW will not cut off MWG, but it is fun to play out the what "if" card.
what i don't understand is that alot of the new gw kits are actually being made in australia such as the wyches and kabalite warrior kits. why make these kits so epensive when they are made in a cheaper market than say england. (don't know were other kits are made)
I like Miniwargaming. He made some great points and i have to agree; the setting for 40k/FB may be great but its behind a giant wall of burning spikes. PR is bad, customer service is bad, and the setting will only carry that so far before enough is enough.
Quite a good video but, as a customer rather than a retailer, I don't like his point about the PR. To him, trying to avoid "perfect storm"s of bad PR is a good thing: if GW's decisions are made more palatable to Joe Average, more people will buy GW's products. To me, it's a bad thing: it's a bandaid that hides the rot beneath. A "perfect storm" of bad PR is actually in my best interests, because it means that GW might suffer enough to fix the underlying problems, or they may at least fail and become a cautionary tale to future companies, "Don't screw over your customers or your business will collapse, just like GW!"
We should complain about more up to date/active FAQs/errata or prize support for major tourneys or lack of models for range or...
O wait, we complain about all those things... Why do we even play GW games... Just saying. Maybe if they gave armies away for free and let players make up the rules. Hmmm.
And that is exactly what GW want you to do. Eventually even the fanbois will feel as if GW has bent them over and given them a good seeing to every time they hand over their cash.
You keep your opinion and I'll keep mine. I've been with GW since 1995 and this isn't the first time they've been "controversial".
I have been playing since the very launch of 3rd ed, and while its not the first controversy, there not the only game in town anymore. Dont think they can be as arrogant as they were in the 90s and brush it off like lint on a shirt.
He should have written it all down beforehand, he rambled too much in parts and took too long to get his point across. He reminds me of my boss, she'll keep making the same point over and over until you want to shake her and tell her you got it the first time.
Nicely articulated and some valid points. I'm unsure if the globalization/currency issues can be solved as simply as you state----but regardless it's better than their current solution.
I'm sure GW's response will follow;
That is a lucid, intelligent, well thought-out objection. Overruled.
Oh, if only all discussions about GW were this civilized and well-thought out. It's a shame that this won't get a decent response from the Evil Empire. He seemed really genuine.
If most of you are concerned that GW will ignore what he says, it's all the more reason why you should write a serious letter to GW about these issues as well as put in a link and say you sponsor the video
LumenPraebeo wrote:If most of you are concerned that GW will ignore what he says, it's all the more reason why you should write a serious letter to GW about these issues as well as put in a link and say you sponsor the video
That was an Enjoyable video, I think it was well put, but I doubt it will have any effect on GW. The only thing that is going to affect them is a steep drop in sales.
The embargo, finecast price rise, and normal price rise weren't a problem because they all got announced on the same day. They were a problem because they happened.
Tech Guard wrote:what i don't understand is that alot of the new gw kits are actually being made in australia such as the wyches and kabalite warrior kits. why make these kits so epensive when they are made in a cheaper market than say england. (don't know were other kits are made)
I think you are labouring under a misapprehension.
GW do not manufacture ANYTHING* in this country.
The UK and the USA, yes. Australia - not a jot. All of that metal, plastic and "fine" (I prefer levy or tithe, myself - or infringement) cost (there is nothing 'fine' about the cost of it) is ALL imported.
*They DO print WD here, and sub in some local content, but that is pretty much it.
here it is, now don't take my word for it but if you labal a product like this with produced in aus. And then turn around and say it was produced in china that is false advertising.
The embargo, finecast price rise, and normal price rise weren't a problem because they all got announced on the same day. They were a problem because they happened.
Yes, but the fact they were announced all together ( more or less ) was an added bonus. Telling any one these news individually would have generated negative feedback. Lumping them all together was a really boneheaded move PR wise.
The video was nice. Loved the detail about the choice of background .
I like MWG, but I think that video could be slightly better produced (tripod, script, etc.), although several commentators fall into this trap. More importantly, some good points raised. In particular the PR point is something GW would do well to improve. Although the target demographic enthusiasm seems unabated, it doesn't cost much to improve the opinions of your Veteran gamers.
Also, check out BTP's views; Shawn rambles a bit more though some people may be interested:
Tech Guard wrote:here it is, now don't take my word for it but if you labal a product like this with produced in aus. And then turn around and say it was produced in china that is false advertising.
You don't quite understand the meaning of the word 'produced'. If I produce a dance track using a licensed beat or sample, that doesn't mean that I suddenly made it all in my studio. The labels used to say 'packed in Australia' and that has the exact same meaning in this context - the components (the box, sprues and instructions) were made into a saleable product in Australia.
It's not false advertising, but if it's any consolation you are guilty of misrepresentation.
On a positive note I've heard that GW has pulled all of their production out of China which is awesome.
Tech Guard wrote:what i don't understand is that alot of the new gw kits are actually being made in australia such as the wyches and kabalite warrior kits. why make these kits so epensive when they are made in a cheaper market than say england. (don't know were other kits are made)
What?
No GW kits are "made" here in Australia. There is no manufacturing facility.
From memory, there might be a shrink-wrapping machine, although that was 5+ years ago.
'Produced' does not mean the same as 'manufactured'.
GW can take the flying leap for all I care. Good try trying to be civil to a bunch of smacktards, though guy. That "Open" letter was almost defering enough to be civil. Was well thought out and had some good points, and also was develpoed in a semiprofessional way.
Good try on the efforts, there.
WON'T make a bit of difference to a bunch of money grubbing !@#$heads that don't know what they are doing, but it was a good try never the less.
Every day goes by to let me increase my desire to embrace the dark side, and bath in the blood of a thousand screaming molten plastic souls.
Just as a side note, i'm finding this amusing that the 3 or so times this has been posted on Warseer it has been deleted as it's apparently an advert. Go figure.
Grimtuff wrote:Just as a side note, i'm finding this amusing that the 3 or so times this has been posted on Warseer it has been deleted as it's apparently an advert. Go figure.
That is funny considering he specifically states in the video that it is not an advert.
The embargo, finecast price rise, and normal price rise weren't a problem because they all got announced on the same day. They were a problem because they happened.
I tend to agree
What GW will take from the video is don't put your bad news days all together because people Will get very annoyed some may walk away. So spin it out and they will only grumble.
Another thought to consider....I wonder how Privateer Press recieved the video? I mean, alot of it was unashamed GW ass kissing.....don't get me wrong, I understand why he did that....kind of like, you deliver the bad news with a little pat on the back.....however/whatever his reasons though, his situation reminded me of a guy standing in front of two girls he really likes and trying to convince them he likes them both....
mikhaila wrote:And since MWG is big online, no doubt that other retailers will be angered and boycott GW products and GW will have to rely on brick and motar stores and soon fail on to itself. Thats my theory.
I don't understand your theory. (firstly, GW won't cut someone off for offering something like this.) But why would you think other retailers would boycott GW?
Because it is unfair, GW products are very popular at MWG and many other gaming stores. If GW closes shop on them then they will lose business just because they told GW that they aren't liking the way they are running things. I would be pretty mad if I owned a small flgs and saw that happen, if GW can't take critism from a retailer that sells their product, then I have no business with GW. I know that GW will not cut off MWG, but it is fun to play out the what "if" card.
You're playing "What If?" with no basis of fact or knowledge.
-You don't have enough to complain about, so you have to make up a situation where GW treats someone unfairly? They haven't done anything to MWG, and won't. Most likely they might send a nice "thank you for your comments" letter.
-GW won't cut off MWG. GW are a business, they can ignore the criticism and keep doing business and making money. They same way MWG can be upset with GW and still sell GW product and make money.
-I've criticized GW quite a bit more harshly, and for many more years than MWG has been in existance. I'm still selling GW, and highly doubt I ever won't be. Especially them cutting me off for a little complaining.
-If you were actually another store, and saw MWG get cut off, you wouldn't spite yourself and cut off your own nose. Your a business, not a clubhouse. You sell GW models to pay the rent and put food on the table. If someone else got cut off from GW, I'd make sure I didn't do the same.
-Only way I've ever seen GW cut someone off is for violating terms of trading, or not paying their bills. Mostly not paying bills.
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Lord Castellan Mik wrote:Spot on guys... GW, grow up and mature in the business world... we now live in a global economy, heading for a world currency
The internet is the future, not brick shops
how many people have to explain it to you
Mik
I'd guess you don't have a good shop near you to appreciate the difference.) If by 'future', you mean 30+ years, then maybe I'll let the comment slide. My future is doubling the size of my shop this month and adding more gaming tables. Not going away for a least another couple of decades. (5 year old twin girls: 18 years until out of college, and lets not even think about weddings and dowries.)
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Delephont wrote:Another thought to consider....I wonder how Privateer Press recieved the video? I mean, alot of it was unashamed GW ass kissing.....don't get me wrong, I understand why he did that....kind of like, you deliver the bad news with a little pat on the back.....however/whatever his reasons though, his situation reminded me of a guy standing in front of two girls he really likes and trying to convince them he likes them both....
In retailing, it's not a zero-sum game. (Assuming you're doing it right. You can increase your sales of one game without decreasing another game's sales by an equal amount. Pack enough gamers into a store and their energy can feed off each other and suddenly everyone is playing 2 or 3 games. My GW sales are holding steady, PP is up double, FOW is up, and we are expanding into a lot of historicals.
A store can have good relationships with all of it's manufacturers. They like games in general, and not surprisingly, a lot of the guys making games like to play things other than what their company makes. I get a game of Warhammer in every couple of weeks with the US head of Battlefront Miniatures, and a lot of the guys at GWHQ were into historicals. No one cares if you sell other games, they mostly care about how well you sell their game.
seanzor wrote:Well GW stocks are still holding pretty steady. Look forward to seeing if/when anything will happen to them, but its doubtful.
GW won't take heed until it hits the stockholders and theres bitching and moaning at the shareholders' meeting.
As a stockholder I've already made my concerns known and received a response from Mark Wells. I'm really a very very minor shareholder but it was good to be heard.
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AgeOfEgos wrote:
Grimtuff wrote:Just as a side note, i'm finding this amusing that the 3 or so times this has been posted on Warseer it has been deleted as it's apparently an advert. Go figure.
That is funny considering he specifically states in the video that it is not an advert.
And he actually mentions direct competitors' names...
As a stockholder I've already made my concerns known and received a response from Mark Wells. I'm really a very very minor shareholder but it was good to be heard.
Mind filling us in on what he said? I think one of the major bugbears that the video highlights is not necessarily GW's complete silence on the issues but also when they do choose to respond it's either along the lines of telling people to effectively shut up and suck it up or it's basically calling major internet retailers like Wayland / Maelstrom 'freeloaders'.
I don't know why the "freeloaders" comment came from. A bit unprofessional IMHO.
To be fair, that likely originates from the book learned term of "free rider" or "free loader"---which isn't really as insulting as the common term use. When I say 'free loader' in ever day speak, people picture bums sitting at home drinking beer while their wives pay the bills. To a CEO/Economics geek, they picture internet retailers providing deep discounts without having the upfront cost of door side expertise, sales and explanations.
Which, even though I disagree with GW's approach, I can understand. My closest LGS that I will buy from (Still an hour away!) is ran by a friendly, honest guy that is always ready to talk out armies, painting, etc. If I were to go in to his shop, take his time in explaining what the various boxes contain, how they play (Perhaps use his tables to play)----then purchase from online retailers---in a very real sense those internet retailers are 'free riding'. This is also the origin of most of the arguments concerning internet sales tax (Well, at least that's what the politicians say!).
Still, not a term I would use in public announcements.....but then again when has GW ever been good at PR?
They were referring to Wayland who have all those things else GW wouldn't be dealing through them. At least that is how I understand it, and as explained in the video.
But it is GW and they only know how to communicate when it comes to stealing candy off the kiddies!
Automatically Appended Next Post: 21 minutes? Good lord in Nottinham above
I know you kids have ever shortening attention spans and there are no commercial breaks but really....
Basically Matt sucks up to GW saying they are wonderful, but:
The ring fencing of distribution is a bad thing
Don't do all the bad news in one go. Spread it out so no one gets upset
PP are also good
Mark Wells wrote:...the simple fact is that European internet traders will not invest any money in growing the hobby in your country. Their model is to minimise their costs and free-ride on the investment of Games Workshop and local independent shops in creating a customer base.
So the exact term is 'free-ride' which does have a specific economic meaning, which AoE refers to, but still, pretty poor PR I think.
Having just watched Mel Brooks exelent comedy 'The Producers' , its got me thinking....
IF Kirby and Wells have 'golden parachutes' on standby.
Are they ACTIVLEY trying to scupper GW plc on purpose, whiile appearing to be doing a good job for the shareholders?
'We realy HAVE to kill off ALL good will and fan support.Price rises over the rate of inflation are not working!'
'I know lets disrupt as many fan sites and suplimentary companies with lots of heavy handed C&D letters and threats of legal action.THAT is sure to rile them up!'
'And then we insult ALL internet retailers after shafting as many FLGS as we can.'
'Lets replace the metal minatures with plastic ones and charge the same amount .THEY ACTUALY BOUGHT THAT!My god how stupid are they...'
'Well other companies replaced thier white metal minatures with resin and gave the customers TWICE as many minatures for the same price.'
'I KNOW what you are going to say, replace the metal minatures with resin ones and charge them more ?'
'NO not JUST that, but make sure the the new resin has appauling quality on release.'
'A complete masterstroke .ANYONE still wanting to buy product from us must be just too dumb to know when they are being done over. There cant be than many stupid people left in the world surley....?
(This is a light hearted supposition and not ment to upset those people, who despite GW plcs best efforts to disuade them from buying GW product, still do. )
As a stockholder I've already made my concerns known and received a response from Mark Wells. I'm really a very very minor shareholder but it was good to be heard.
Mind filling us in on what he said? I think one of the major bugbears that the video highlights is not necessarily GW's complete silence on the issues but also when they do choose to respond it's either along the lines of telling people to effectively shut up and suck it up or it's basically calling major internet retailers like Wayland / Maelstrom 'freeloaders'.
Primarily I brought up the quality issues and the fact that a dip in quality could have an impact on share price. Mr. Wells stated that they are aware of the issues and assured me that the current defect rate is around 3%. To me 3% is acceptable as an error rate, if true. He also mentioned that they are working on refining the process further so that there are less problems ongoing.
All in all I'm fairly mollified but will keep a close eye on the financials for any signs that the stock could dip but with the fairly strong financials being reported and dividends back in play, I think my money is safe for now.
As a stockholder I've already made my concerns known and received a response from Mark Wells. I'm really a very very minor shareholder but it was good to be heard.
Mind filling us in on what he said? I think one of the major bugbears that the video highlights is not necessarily GW's complete silence on the issues but also when they do choose to respond it's either along the lines of telling people to effectively shut up and suck it up or it's basically calling major internet retailers like Wayland / Maelstrom 'freeloaders'.
Primarily I brought up the quality issues and the fact that a dip in quality could have an impact on share price. Mr. Wells stated that they are aware of the issues and assured me that the current defect rate is around 3%. To me 3% is acceptable as an error rate, if true. He also mentioned that they are working on refining the process further so that there are less problems ongoing.
All in all I'm fairly mollified but will keep a close eye on the financials for any signs that the stock could dip but with the fairly strong financials being reported and dividends back in play, I think my money is safe for now.
According to a GW manager that KillKrazy spoke to, apparently miscast/defect rate on some of the Finecast kits is running at closer to a third. I would humbly suggest Mr Wells is being very optimistic...
Can't wait for the sequel video crying about how GW 'files' 'pleas' (snubs) in the 'couldn't care less pile' (garbage) after looking at the screenshot before the video even loaded and seeing Warmachine all over the entire background...
I thought the video was good, except for the last two minutes, and the constant mantra of 'you need to do this'.
I thought the strongest point was that on entry costs. '5's and 9's' is a proven phenomenon in marketing and costing: selling something for 99.95 generates more sales than 100 simply because of sticker shock. 49.95 is better than 50. When someone sees the 'starter kit' costing $150, that is well over 'sticker shock' and into 'sticker heart attack' territory, especially when many independents sell games with a $50 starter kit at the same time.
As a stockholder I've already made my concerns known and received a response from Mark Wells. I'm really a very very minor shareholder but it was good to be heard.
Mind filling us in on what he said? I think one of the major bugbears that the video highlights is not necessarily GW's complete silence on the issues but also when they do choose to respond it's either along the lines of telling people to effectively shut up and suck it up or it's basically calling major internet retailers like Wayland / Maelstrom 'freeloaders'.
Primarily I brought up the quality issues and the fact that a dip in quality could have an impact on share price. Mr. Wells stated that they are aware of the issues and assured me that the current defect rate is around 3%. To me 3% is acceptable as an error rate, if true. He also mentioned that they are working on refining the process further so that there are less problems ongoing.
All in all I'm fairly mollified but will keep a close eye on the financials for any signs that the stock could dip but with the fairly strong financials being reported and dividends back in play, I think my money is safe for now.
According to a GW manager that KillKrazy spoke to, apparently miscast/defect rate on some of the Finecast kits is running at closer to a third. I would humbly suggest Mr Wells is being very optimistic...
It was 1/3 of the complex kits like Gazzgull Thraka and the Hive Tyrant, and much less on the small models. He expected it to improve. I would expect it to improve. The question is how much it will improve -- 20% in the first three months is the rule of thumb. That would bring the defect rate down to 25% of complex models, which is fairly poor actually.
The Gazzgull and Hive Tyrant models in the display window were both defective in obvious though not in crippling ways. (Though if paying £36 for a kit you should not expect any obvious defects.)
My worry is that the larger kits like Gazzgull and Hive Tyrant are exactly the kind of thing that should work much better in resin than metal due to size and weight.
I'd guess you don't have a good shop near you to appreciate the difference.) If by 'future', you mean 30+ years, then maybe I'll let the comment slide. My future is doubling the size of my shop this month and adding more gaming tables. Not going away for a least another couple of decades. (5 year old twin girls: 18 years until out of college, and lets not even think about weddings and dowries.)
Hate to be the bearer of bad news, but your shop is the exception of FLGS, not the rule which WHY folks say "the internet is the future, not brick n mortar" stores. To most people they either dont have one close enough or a good enough one they would make purchases on.
Its great YOUR shop is doing that well. Me? There are three around, and I wouldnt piss on any of them if they were on fire, much less make purchases in or even show up to anymore. FLGS havent been relevant in my life in over a decade, and I'm not the only one.
Internet has done more for my gaming experience then any FLG will ever do.
mikhaila wrote:One critique I'd make is the background. Maybe they were trying to make a point shooting it in front of a wall of PP products, but it was a very skimpy display of product, not laid out well, and they were using a rack GW gave them for free to hold some of the PP boxes.) A better background might have been a full wall of PP and other non-GW games, if that was the point they wanted to make.
As a former store manager, I was thinking the exact same thing! Lots of open space on that wall, space out those GW racks full of other companies product. Made me giggle.
Delephont wrote:Unfortunately I think this will fall on death ears.
Death ears? What does the word 'death' mean? Think about it for a second... Death. The act of dying. "...will fall on death ears."
Deaf.
The word you mean to use is deaf. Meaning unable to hear. Deaf ears. Ears that cannot (or will not) hear you.
Ghidorah
Apologies, you are, of course, correct.....and let that be a lesson to you, never type without engaging brain first....the strangest things will appear on the page.
I'd guess you don't have a good shop near you to appreciate the difference.) If by 'future', you mean 30+ years, then maybe I'll let the comment slide. My future is doubling the size of my shop this month and adding more gaming tables. Not going away for a least another couple of decades. (5 year old twin girls: 18 years until out of college, and lets not even think about weddings and dowries.)
Hate to be the bearer of bad news, but your shop is the exception of FLGS, not the rule which WHY folks say "the internet is the future, not brick n mortar" stores. To most people they either dont have one close enough or a good enough one they would make purchases on.
Its great YOUR shop is doing that well. Me? There are three around, and I wouldnt piss on any of them if they were on fire, much less make purchases in or even show up to anymore. FLGS havent been relevant in my life in over a decade, and I'm not the only one.
Internet has done more for my gaming experience then any FLG will ever do.
We'll have to disagree then. I know of many (couple hundred at least) good stores. You have your three bad ones that you've claimed to piss on for years.
I have a kneejerk reaction to the many people who every year say the internet is the future. There's some smug satisfaction that it will put all FLGS out of business. Why does the it have to be an either/or statement? It's like people want stores to die just so they can prove they were right about the interwebs ascendency. There are always going to be Game Stores, Gaming clubs, basement groups, and other areas where people get together to game. The interenet isn't going to stomp that out. And there will never be a FLGS near every gamer. No black/white solution. What is happening is that many FLGS use the internet more and more, and not just to sell things.
mikhaila wrote: There are always going to be Game Stores, Gaming clubs, basement groups, and other areas where people get together to game. The interenet isn't going to stomp that out.
I am unsure how the internet ever could except if we went to an online version of the game like vassal only. And then it wouldn't be a miniature hobby, it would be an online game.
You like movie franchises or other media? You collect toys or action figures? You play online games? Yep, those fandoms are almost exclusively Internet-based now.
I simply don't see how one can wargame with only the internet. Events are still overwhelmingly run by or supported by FLGS. Last time I checked, wargaming still happens in a physical location between two real people with physical objects. So unless wargaming is going to switch to a system where people find other local players via internet and play at each other houses, a large number of people will choose to go to stores for gaming... and most clubs are based around store locations.
We'll have to disagree then. I know of many (couple hundred at least) good stores. You have your three bad ones that you've claimed to piss on for years.
I have many more then three. Those are just the ones near me. I have friends around various areas that can tell horror stories one right after another. Dont presume thats the end all of mine. I can tell and point out ones in NY, PA, NJ, CT among others.
I have a kneejerk reaction to the many people who every year say the internet is the future. There's some smug satisfaction that it will put all FLGS out of business. Why does the it have to be an either/or statement? It's like people want stores to die just so they can prove they were right about the interwebs ascendency. There are always going to be Game Stores, Gaming clubs, basement groups, and other areas where people get together to game. The interenet isn't going to stomp that out. And there will never be a FLGS near every gamer. No black/white solution. What is happening is that many FLGS use the internet more and more, and not just to sell things.
What do you really expect? It IS part of the future. I can point out various folks whose gaming experiences EXPANDED from the internet and not through stores. And not just 40k- OPP, D&D and various other RPG's and wargames. And no help from any FLGS. FLGS in many places, are reaping what many have sown. Not all FLGS, but there are many many bad ones, and folks experience have reflected it.
Our old gaming club came about as a direct result of a FLGS taking a piss.
You'd never know it from this discussion, but I use to be a big FLGS supporter, pay where you play, etc. But guess what? That support, in mine and many other experiences has ended, becuase it went one way. That is why its become a big either/or statement.
I'm glad your doing well adn expanding. But overall I could care less about FLGS.
I think the only time I've ever bought GW mini's from an internet discounter is when I bought 5 Valks when they came out. I was starting IG and the Valks were so expensive that the savings added up to a good chunk of cash and I needed a bunch of other hobby stuff that my FLGS didn't carry so I made an order to The WarStore for all of it.
Other than that I have two very good FLGS near me (Games and Stuff in Glen Burnie MD and Dream Wizards in Rockville MD) that I spend my gaming money at. They provide good places to play and good service so I spend my money there.
This doesn't have to be a either/or thing and honestly I really doubt how much online retailers have really affected the brick and mortar stores. Maybe mikhaila or other store owners will tell me I am wrong but Internet discount retailers have been around for a while and I haven't seen the success/fail rate of stores in MD/PA/VA be any different than it was in the years before the Internet discounters really got going. The stores that acted like a proper business and treated their customers right are still in business and the stores that acted poorly are gone.
Another independent retailer speaks out with a constructive video about recent events in GW.
Unlike the 2nd video I actually managed to watch this (I tried skipping the waffling in the other one but it just got to much), I think the guys raised some good points, regardless of how nicely you try and put those points anyone above the level of store manager (if they ever watched it) is not going to take to kindly to this, you are basically telling them how to run their business, the idea of just having everything in pounds on the website is certainly a good idea with shipping rates for each country but I am not sure you would able to do that in the stores in other countries, ideally I think quarterly price adjustments would be the way to go (mind you I could never see GW lowering a price for any reason). You know I don't really want to see GW fail either, it's been a massive part of my life since I was a kid, I would however like to them seem "suffer" for recent events, they need to see that yearly price rises do nothing for customer retention and need to find a better new business model, you can see with companies like Mantic that they have learnt from GW mistakes and at the end of the day it really takes a bit more than pretty models to keep your punters happy.
It was 1/3 of the complex kits like Gazzgull Thraka and the Hive Tyrant, and much less on the small models. He expected it to improve. I would expect it to improve. The question is how much it will improve -- 20% in the first three months is the rule of thumb. That would bring the defect rate down to 25% of complex models, which is fairly poor actually.
The Gazzgull and Hive Tyrant models in the display window were both defective in obvious though not in crippling ways. (Though if paying £36 for a kit you should not expect any obvious defects.)
My worry is that the larger kits like Gazzgull and Hive Tyrant are exactly the kind of thing that should work much better in resin than metal due to size and weight.
I suspect the 'real' ratio of miscast to correct cast lies somewhere in between the official party line of 3% and the ~35% for complex models. Maybe something like 15 - 20%? Either way, I expect it to improve and it should improve but not sure that they will get the 20% improvement that you suggest though. A couple of things concern me; a) GW are supposed to be the subject matter experts in this sort of thing, both in house and with FW expertise. If they have this level of miscast then that would suggest genuine problems. Also, b) this isn't a spur of the moment decision - we can safely assume this has been planned and prepared for months, if not years. If the current level of miscast is after months of research and testing, then that is frankly worrying. These sort of problems should have been ironed out long before the range ever made it to public consumption, not to mention the issues with wilting figures in shop windows which is nuts if true. If GW did not do any degree of testing before the launch then it begs the question, why not?
Yes, all new processes are subject to flaws and teething issues and if this were a new start up line like a TV or PC assembly or something like that, then one would certainly expect problems in the first few months as the line shakes itself out. However, we aren't really talking anything like that - it's mini casting, not the most complex process in the world and certainly not for a company with ~30 years experience. It seems all the more strange given that other, smaller companies seem to be able to produce resin and resin/plastic figures without these sort of issues.
I stopped playing Hordes before PP started introducing resin models, did they have any of these quality control issues when they started?
Also do they still have any issues to speak of and do their resin models soften at a temperature similar to the Finecast? All my resin experience is with ForgeWorld, their resin holds up well IMO, I have to use a hair dryer to correct bends and such as hot water just doesn't quite do it for thicker things like Hydra barrels unless you leave it under the running water for like 5 minutes. No melting problems in the car either but I am careful since almost all of my DKoKIG are resin. The quality on Forgeworld can be ultra bad though.
vonjankmon wrote:I stopped playing Hordes before PP started introducing resin models, did they have any of these quality control issues when they started?
Also do they still have any issues to speak of and do their resin models soften at a temperature similar to the Finecast? All my resin experience is with ForgeWorld, their resin holds up well IMO, I have to use a hair dryer to correct bends and such as hot water just doesn't quite do it for thicker things like Hydra barrels unless you leave it under the running water for like 5 minutes. No melting problems in the car either but I am careful since almost all of my DKoKIG are resin. The quality on Forgeworld can be ultra bad though.
The new GW stuff isn't true resin though, at least not in the same manner as FW resin. It's rumoured to be some sort of resin/plastic hybrid, although no-one knows for sure. That's why its properties are slightly different to the FW stuff that people know. That's why reports of it melting in shop windows and cars are quire worrying; if you are going to bring and new, untried material to market, why the hell wouldn't you test it?
This is an interesting twist on the "SIGN MY ONLINE PETITION" thread(s). It will do about as much good, too, sad to say.
If they were going to listen to indy retailer's opinions at all, they would have back when they made their first "screw-the-brick-and-mortar-store" move in the early '00s.
Lord Castellan Mik wrote:Spot on guys... GW, grow up and mature in the business world... we now live in a global economy, heading for a world currency
The internet is the future, not brick shops
how many people have to explain it to you
Despite rumors to the contrary our business world is no where near as global as the media claims and we are not even remotely close to having a world currency. Look how long it too for the Euro to come into being and that was only a single continent. No way the entire world, or even a majority of it, will be able to come to terms with something like a world currency.
I do agree with the internet sales. That one screwed me over, but GW isn't the only gaming company at fault for that. Years ago game manufacturers decided to not sell to Internet Only sellers to keep brick and mortar gaming stores from going out of business. It is about time for them to realize that not everyone has a local brick and mortar store and not everyone is in a position to run a brick and mortar store. Besides those brick and mortar stores who are selling online can just as easily draw customers from other local brick and mortar stores. It is just a stupid and foolish concept and shoots the companies and distributors out of sales they could be generating. When I was trying to establish myself online years ago I was astounded how quickly none of these companies wanted any of my money because I was internet only...
On the subject of finecast, I am waiting and seeing. I am not getting up in arms over a few threads of pre-release minis showing flaws. I have been playing GW games since Rogue Trader and 3rd Edition of WHFB. As always I will show my support with my money *if* I am happy with the minis I am getting. Early on the citadel line was incredibly diverse. There was a span there in the 90s where I stopped buying minis from them because I hated the fact that I needed to build units of 10-20 models out of only 2 different casts. BORING!!. Then they moved away from that and started enhancing the line again and I started buying again. The same thing happened when they moved into plastics. Ooo look at my 20 man plastic beastman squad where every figure is exactly the same...blah... Now the plastics are cool to play with and totally customizable. With finecast if I don't like the end result I am not going to buy the figs. It is that simple. If they are crap I will not waste my money. By the same token if they aren't crap I will buy some. Sadly my addiction continues and despite having 5 really large chaos forces I would like to build some new armies. I will have to see if I can do that with finecast minis or if I will be competing with folks on ebay for the previously released metal versions of the figures. Of course any force that is released from now on will not have previous metal minis to buy...so we'll have to see how that goes.
Seemed like a pretty good video to me, although I would echo the calls for a tripod and to not say "you should run it like this..." but rather "I'd recommend you run it like this".
Obviously there's a need to be polite and you don't want to aggravate GW when you're trying to make a rational point, but I don't think he was needlessly complimentary if GW at times and seemed to over-look some of GW's more questionable methods. For example, he mentioned the Summer Price increase like it was OK and the customers don't mind the price increasing every year (with or without reason) and things like releasing bad news all in one go seemed to suggest to me it would've been OK had it been spread out. To me, the problem is that these things exist, rather than how/when they're executed.
I think it was a pretty good response to GW though and I hope it gets spread around suitably.
That was my point exactly Dave.
It becomes advice on PR rather than point out that there are better ways to run a business, which Matthew had been explaining earlier in the video.
I felt the things you mentioned diluted his argument.
Also this was the most awesome quote from the BTP video. He compares GW to the Empire!
Lando Calrissian on Cloud City wrote:"This deal is getting worse all the time."
I think he was refering to how GW dictates the deal to retailers. who are now in the buisness of selling GW product. But I think this was perfect for us fans too! We kinda have no choice but to stick with GW. (or I guess leave the GW hobby, but that's not a option I'm looking at any time soon!)
Grot 6 wrote:
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Every day goes by to let me increase my desire to embrace the dark side, and bath in the blood of a thousand screaming molten plastic souls.
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QFT
Lord Castellan Mik wrote:Spot on guys... GW, grow up and mature in the business world... we now live in a global economy, heading for a world currency
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Mik
The 'world currency' thing is really really not happening. A new thread to discuss that might be entertaining.
seanzor wrote:Well GW stocks are still holding pretty steady. Look forward to seeing if/when anything will happen to them, but its doubtful.
GW won't take heed until it hits the stockholders and theres bitching and moaning at the shareholders' meeting.
You do appreciate that the average daily turnover of that stock is less than GBP10k right? The informational value of the price action of a highly illiquid instrument is far less than you believe. Stock analysts do not bother covering this firm because the stock cannot be traded. If an existing intitutional investor wanted to get out of their holding they would need an intermediary to find a buyer because they could not sell into the market. What I'm trying to say here is the observed price in the market does _not_ reflect the perceived value of the company.
agnosto wrote:
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Mr. Wells stated that they are aware of the issues and assured me that the current defect rate is around 3%.
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Just to be crystal here - did he write 'defect' rate or 'return' rate. An appreciable difference and why it looks like we are talking about apples and oranges. From personal observation I would guess 20-25% defect rate (i.e. simply not good enough at even half the price) and 5% return rate.
filbert wrote:
The new GW stuff isn't true resin though, at least not in the same manner as FW resin. It's rumoured to be some sort of resin/plastic hybrid, although no-one knows for sure. That's why its properties are slightly different to the FW stuff that people know. That's why reports of it melting in shop windows and cars are quire worrying; if you are going to bring and new, untried material to market, why the hell wouldn't you test it?
I thought it had been established that it is a resin with a plastic filler material for added strength. I might be recalling speculation rather than fact but maybe it rings a bell with someone else.
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You can increase your sales of one game without decreasing another game's sales by an equal amount. Pack enough gamers into a store and their energy can feed off each other and suddenly everyone is playing 2 or 3 games. My 
