OK, before I start, it seems that Tau get a lot of hate around here (if that's not true, well sorry, I'm new here) and these debates get a bit...heated. So just remember, keep it civil.

Anyway, there's a significant lack of fluff regarding the numbers of the Fire caste, and in a lot of debates this seems to be the dividing line between pro-Tau and anti-Tau arguements. So, rather than let all the other Tau fluff threads have that, let's settle it here. Please remember all this is my own estimates and is based mostly on speculation and what I hope is logic.

So, first we see how much the total Tau population is. I'm going by the "balanced" idea, that each sept world is half industrialised, with cities and factories, while the other half is agricultural, providing food for the cities and the Air Caste in the upper atmosphere. If the living conditions are similair to a modern day Western country, such as the UK or the USA, (with similair sized houses, distribution and birth rates) then the population should be about 5 billion per sept world, similair to todays Earth, but slightly lower due to the numbers shipped off world and the birth control regime. With 26 sept worlds, the population should be around 130 billion, while the other 70 worlds are either too small to bother adding, allied worlds or being nom'd by the Nids.

Then, the rough size of each caste. Note the numbers may seem high, however a significant proportion of each will be children or old and infirm, so about half won't be part of the workforce. While each caste is a sub-species and their numbers are not naturally dependent on the overall need, the Ethereals would probably control birth rates if the numbers are insufficient-after all, there's no point in having 40 billion negotiators. The Earth caste should be largest, being the laborours, however much of the manual labour is performed by drones. I'd put the numbers at around 40 billion, as it could be assumed they are not just slaves, but the general working class-running shops and transporting goods etc. The Air Caste, however, are entirely adapted to live off world, and so they would be running all space stations and ships, keeping satellites running, piloting fighters and providing the entire crew for large ships. I think they would number around 30 billion, with only a few dozen million involved in combat while most are messengers, transport crews or living in off-world installations. The water caste, while having a narrow role, could probably find jobs in every day life; anything from police negotiators to salesmen to normal everyday jobs. So I'd say the numbers are around 20 billion.

So that puts the Fire Caste numbers at....dundundun! 30 billion. Stop facepalming! If you remove the numbers in traing, retired or injured, you're left with about 15 billion. Them minus the ones acting as police forces, garrison duties, patrolling or with more basic tasks (terrtorial army type things), and the ones on leave or with no actual combat to do (doing regular working-class jobs), you're only left with a few million involved in actual wars at one time. With roughly 5 billion more in reserve or patrolling, your left with a force that could feasibly defend an empire of 100 worlds while not being an instant win mega-army.

Discuss.

There's nothing to discuss.

We can't have any real ideas as to the numbers of the Fire Caste because we don't have any real basis to work from.

There aren't "entire worlds" full of Fire Caste, they share the space with the Earth and Water Castes. It's a case of limited resources and we don't have the entire picture.

Kanluwen wrote:There's nothing to discuss.

We can't have any real ideas as to the numbers of the Fire Caste because we don't have any real basis to work from.

There aren't "entire worlds" full of Fire Caste, they share the space with the Earth and Water Castes. It's a case of limited resources and we don't have the entire picture.

OK, maybe this is a dumb thread. But I did say it was speculation and guesswork, mostly.
But I never said there were "entire worlds" of fire caste.

Meh, it's fairly solid speculation. Using common sense I would put the number far lower, at only a few million. Simply because the Tau don't field millions of Fire-Warriors at every engagement and that the stated number of available warriors for the Third Sphere was a million, IIRC from a previous thread.

These threads seem to turn sour pretty quickly.

So...

iproxtaco wrote:Meh, it's fairly solid speculation. Using common sense I would put the number far lower, at only a few million. Simply because the Tau don't field millions of Fire-Warriors at every engagement and that the stated number of available warriors for the Third Sphere was a million, IIRC from a previous thread.

I agree with this position.

The tau are not truly mobilized for war the way the other factions are.

iproxtaco wrote:Meh, it's fairly solid speculation. Using common sense I would put the number far lower, at only a few million. Simply because the Tau don't field millions of Fire-Warriors at every engagement and that the stated number of available warriors for the Third Sphere was a million, IIRC from a previous thread.

"As his words echoed into silence a million Firewarriors listening outside the councildome went down on bended knee. The Earthcase began the building of a vast temple in his name The Air Caste launched a thousand vessels..." ( Codex Tau Empire, 4. edition page 42 ).
So, unless every single Firewarrior who participated at the third sphere expansion was outside the councildome, listening to the spacepope's words this number is of little worth for us.
The total number of Firewarriors is most likely quite a bit higher, perhaps several millions for each of the major, developed Septworlds, even if we assume an unusualy low level of
mobilisation. Even if only one in 300 Tau ( a similar number to what many european nations field atm) is a Firewarrior we get 18 million Firewarriors for each earthlike septworld.

Kanluwen wrote:

We can't have any real ideas as to the numbers of the Fire Caste because we don't have any real basis to work from.

the sad truth.

KingDeath wrote:
So, unless every single Firewarrior who participated at the third sphere expansion was outside the councildome, listening to the spacepope's words this number is of little worth for us.

If you "scroll down" on page 42 ( paragraph 5 IICC ) the number of a million firewarriors comes up again.

KingDeath wrote:
The total number of Firewarriors is most likely quite a bit higher, perhaps several millions for each of the major, developed Septworlds, even if we assume an unusualy low level of
mobilisation. Even if only one in 300 Tau ( a similar number to what many european nations field atm) is a Firewarrior we get 18 million Firewarriors for each earthlike septworld.

So youre assuming anything earth "like" (sized ?) has a population density like earth?

I believe the major issue is and always will be GW may throw some numbers around for IG and even those are not a 1:300, and keeps any
xenos at a vague level when it comes to sizes. I doubt there is any source of a population density of a xenos race in M41 from GW.

In Savage scars, some hundreds up to thousands of various types of firewarriors are noticed as participating in the fighting. On a major sept world. Not millions.

So the questions is:

- A ) firewarriors, counted like we could use common sense and real life examples?
- B ) firewarriors, counted based on GW publications and GW's idea of the sizes of military formations?

A or B ?

TrollPie wrote:So, first we see how much the total Tau population is.

Basically, you start with a handful of arbitrary assumptions and get another arbitrary assumption. Doesn't help that some assumptions are obviously false.

Bottom line is that we have no clue about total numbers and caste specific numbers. We only know that Fire caste is the largest (50% IIRC) and Ethereal caste is the smallest. And that no Tau planet has a population density coming close to human planets.

Why would you remove garrisoned units form the count?

Anyways, this is similar to my estimate on another thread a few weeks ago. The forces defending these worlds are LARGE. The damocles gulf crusade (which included titans) was halted by the garrison (the "PDF") of Dal'yth, a world with a low militarization rate. The Tau are hugely focused on expansion, but are anal about defending their claims.

Also, you can't remove the air caste from the number you got based off the planetary populations, as the aircaste do NOT live on planets. They live in orbital cities.

And also, the support staff cannot be subtracted from the number of FW, as those roles (Battlefield Engineers, armourers etc.) would be filled by the Earth caste.

You numbers start out fine. 5 bil seems about right for a sept world. I expect them to have a little less density then earth would.

I don't think I can trusty your ratios. It wouldn't be a set 1/4 for each class, but I don't know if yours are right.

You forgot the kroot, the vespin, the human worlds. Each on would have a different density and some are sept worlds. That should eat quite a few numbers.


On second look, you make a lot of assumptions that I just can't buy.

nomotog wrote:You numbers start out fine. 5 bil seems about right for a sept world. I expect them to have a little less density then earth would.

I don't think I can trusty your ratios. It wouldn't be a set 1/4 for each class, but I don't know if yours are right.

You forgot the kroot, the vespin, the human worlds. Each on would have a different density and some are sept worlds. That should eat quite a few numbers.


On second look, you make a lot of assumptions that I just can't buy.

Vespid, Pech and all the Gue'vesa worlds are not considered sept worlds -_-"

Also, if you include the Gue'vesa, Stingwings and kroot the Tau military is significantly larger, as the xenos auxilliaries have much higher rates of militarisation, and the human worlds have higher density.

There are only around seven full sept worlds, which on the outside might approach several billion in population. The rest of the septs would probably be closer to Cadian levels, in the low hundreds of millions on the outside. The remainder are small colonies with populations in the thousands.

However, regardless of the population, fire warriors can't number anywhere near even one billion, as that would mean there would be around five million available for every last colony if only 50% were in combat-ready condition. As they only field them in the low thousands or tens of thousands in major conflicts, this is clearly not the case, as one would expect hundreds of thousands for even minor skirmishes, let alone major engagements.

This means either their population is significantly lower, the fire caste makes up a relatively small percentage of their population, or only a very small percentage of fire caste meet the physical and psychological requirements to enter the military.

Sir Pseudonymous wrote:
This means either their population is significantly lower, the fire caste makes up a relatively small percentage of their population, or only a very small percentage of fire caste meet the physical and psychological requirements to enter the military.

On the topic of the third one, I don't think a member of the Fire caste can obtain a position outside of the military. IIRC, they stay in until they die.

Sir Pseudonymous wrote:There are only around seven full sept worlds, which on the outside might approach several billion in population. The rest of the septs would probably be closer to Cadian levels, in the low hundreds of millions on the outside. The remainder are small colonies with populations in the thousands.

However, regardless of the population, fire warriors can't number anywhere near even one billion, as that would mean there would be around five million available for every last colony if only 50% were in combat-ready condition. As they only field them in the low thousands or tens of thousands in major conflicts, this is clearly not the case, as one would expect hundreds of thousands for even minor skirmishes, let alone major engagements.

This means either their population is significantly lower, the fire caste makes up a relatively small percentage of their population, or only a very small percentage of fire caste meet the physical and psychological requirements to enter the military.

Five million for every last colony really isn't a stretch. Numbers given in 40k fluff for troop sizes are hilariously low. If we're being "realistic", then you would need tens of millions to defend an entire planet. For reference, the Nazis needed about 5 million to unsuccessfully invade a small portion of Russia. To adequately defend 7 planets would require at hundreds of millions easily, let alone the many colonies and smaller septs.

I was just reading the first Cain novel today and the Commissar himself mentions the Imperial Guard has 30,000 men on a planet, "more than enough" to protect it from the Tau. In reality, this is about 1/5 of the troops Germany used to occupy Norway during WW2, or about half of the confederate army present at Gettysburg. I think it's safe to totally throw out what fluff authors have put forth as far as numbers are concerned, if we're trying for a realistic total.

im2randomghgh wrote:

nomotog wrote:You numbers start out fine. 5 bil seems about right for a sept world. I expect them to have a little less density then earth would.

I don't think I can trusty your ratios. It wouldn't be a set 1/4 for each class, but I don't know if yours are right.

You forgot the kroot, the vespin, the human worlds. Each on would have a different density and some are sept worlds. That should eat quite a few numbers.


On second look, you make a lot of assumptions that I just can't buy.

Vespid, Pech and all the Gue'vesa worlds are not considered sept worlds -_-"

Also, if you include the Gue'vesa, Stingwings and kroot the Tau military is significantly larger, as the xenos auxilliaries have much higher rates of militarisation, and the human worlds have higher density.

Bla. You see that is what I get for leaving my codex at my firends house.

Maybe going from the top down is the wrong way to do it. We only know the number of worlds, their population, the ratio of fire warriors, who can fight, ect. It's a lot of stuff to guess at.

What if we go from the bottom up. Find out how many fire warriors fir in a manta, how many manta fit into a spaceship, how many spaceships in a fleet, and then how many fleets they have.

A manta holds 92 fire warriors. 48 loose warriors + 8 In battle suits + 6 in two hammer heads (I assume it takes three to pilot a hammer head pilot, gunner, commander)+30 in the two devilfish (3 for crew and 12 inside the passenger compartment. I don't have my codex on hand. Fill me in if i am off on how many fit in a fish.) This info comes from forge world's page on the manta.

A explorer class starship holds 8 squads of manta or barracuda. I don't know what the ratio of bomber version to transport versions would be. Again if you have a idea fill me in. My guess is half and half. That gives us 368 fire warriors (Maybe a few spares, but they can't just be dropped with out ships.)

This is about where I run out of information. How many explorer (I want to use the emissary or custodian if anyone knows how many they hold) class ships do we have in a fleet. And how many fleet per world. I think we will have to do some guesses there.

Going along this way might get us better numbers.

Melissia wrote:

iproxtaco wrote:Meh, it's fairly solid speculation. Using common sense I would put the number far lower, at only a few million. Simply because the Tau don't field millions of Fire-Warriors at every engagement and that the stated number of available warriors for the Third Sphere was a million, IIRC from a previous thread.

I agree with this position.

The tau are not truly mobilized for war the way the other factions are.

I agree with some of what Kan says, but I disagree with you mel.

The Tau Empire is capable of mobilizing every single adult into state service. Since a Tau will kill himself on command, their devotion is without question. As a military state, they have fought and won against the IoM and several other factions on more than a few worlds.

The Tau shortcoming is strictly in their size and FTL. They are a very tiny faction but a very lethal one to be sure.

Estimates about the number of Fire Caste is a question without an exact answer however...

Several factors to keep in mind:

Dal'yth Prime had billions of Tau.
A million Ceremonial Fire Warriors attended a speech.
They have a force org that allows for Regimental sized deployments.
They devote 100% of a sub-species to ground war allowing to leave only through death or politics.

These are just a few hints at what the Tau have for a Fire Warrior population. If we cater to the low end of the numbers it would be plausible a few battalions of Tau fought and defeated Regiments, Titan Legions, Astartes, etc. It is more plausible they have millions and send thousands between 5,000 - 50,000 to conflicts holding most in reserve, due to a highly defensive doctrine of warfare and lack of rapid re-deployment options should other fronts open up against them.

BeefCakeSoup wrote:

Melissia wrote:

iproxtaco wrote:Meh, it's fairly solid speculation. Using common sense I would put the number far lower, at only a few million. Simply because the Tau don't field millions of Fire-Warriors at every engagement and that the stated number of available warriors for the Third Sphere was a million, IIRC from a previous thread.

I agree with this position.

The tau are not truly mobilized for war the way the other factions are.

I agree with some of what Kan says, but I disagree with you mel.

The Tau Empire is capable of mobilizing every single adult into state service. Since a Tau will kill himself on command, their devotion is without question.

Uh, what?
Where in the hell are you getting that from? We've heard nothing of "a Tau will kill himself on command". We've heard speculation that they will if an Ethereal orders it.

The Tau Empire is also incapable of mobilizing every single adult into state service. Many of those individuals would have no real role to play in state service if there were full scale wars on--such as the Water Caste. That's an entire large chunk of their population doing basically nothing.

As a military state, they have fought and won against the IoM and several other factions on more than a few worlds.

"As a military state" they have fought and won against the IoM coming at them in very small forces. The designation of "Crusade" is given to any Imperial Task Force performing a certain mission. There could be a Crusade of the Clean Underpants given the way the Imperium is organized.

And despite the thing that always gets thrown out here of "Well they killed Titans!"(Warhounds. Sentinels, the Imperium's mass produced scout walker, have killed Warhounds in the fluff before. Hell, infantry with heavy weapons and gusto have killed Warhounds in the fluff before. And don't forget that the Tau had to cannibalize ship to ship weaponry to kill those Warhounds.)--the Tau are far from being anywhere near a major player in the Grimdarkverse.

The Tau, for all intents and purposes, are the Israel of 40k. They've been involved in some really high intensity, low number conflicts. They've punched above their weight class in those conflicts, and usually for a variety of ridiculous reasons and plot armor shielding their flaws.

That's not to say, before someone accuses me of being 'racist against the Tau' like last time this topic was broached, that they might not have actually succeeded. There's always that possibility. After all, the Continental Army beat the British didn't they?
The point is it's a tiny possibility, if a full scale high intensity war were to break out that the Tau would survive. They've encountered, at best, the tip of the spear that the Imperium is poking their territories with.

The Tau shortcoming is strictly in their size and FTL. They are a very tiny faction but a very lethal one to be sure.

Far from it. They're a very tiny faction which inhabits a very lethal section of space. Without the protection of the Warp Storms that destroyed the Imperial colonization fleet, without the
turbulent warp surround it, etc etc

Estimates about the number of Fire Caste is a question without an exact answer however...

Several factors to keep in mind:

Dal'yth Prime had billions of Tau.
A million Ceremonial Fire Warriors attended a speech.
They have a force org that allows for Regimental sized deployments.
They devote 100% of a sub-species to ground war allowing to leave only through death or politics.

They devote 100% of a sub-species to war, period. There is also no "allowing to leave only through death or politics". Where do you think the Tau get the Fire Caste instructors from? They're not magical drone Fire Caste.

These are just a few hints at what the Tau have for a Fire Warrior population. If we cater to the low end of the numbers it would be plausible a few battalions of Tau fought and defeated Regiments, Titan Legions, Astartes, etc. It is more plausible they have millions and send thousands between 5,000 - 50,000 to conflicts holding most in reserve, due to a highly defensive doctrine of warfare and lack of rapid re-deployment options should other fronts open up against them.

Ehhh.

I just don't see us having any hard numbers (ever) for stuff like this. GW loves vagueness (which I applaud) when it comes to total civilization numbers, and I hope they leave these blanks for each of us to fill in as we will.

the color purple wrote:

Sir Pseudonymous wrote:There are only around seven full sept worlds, which on the outside might approach several billion in population. The rest of the septs would probably be closer to Cadian levels, in the low hundreds of millions on the outside. The remainder are small colonies with populations in the thousands.

However, regardless of the population, fire warriors can't number anywhere near even one billion, as that would mean there would be around five million available for every last colony if only 50% were in combat-ready condition. As they only field them in the low thousands or tens of thousands in major conflicts, this is clearly not the case, as one would expect hundreds of thousands for even minor skirmishes, let alone major engagements.

This means either their population is significantly lower, the fire caste makes up a relatively small percentage of their population, or only a very small percentage of fire caste meet the physical and psychological requirements to enter the military.

Five million for every last colony really isn't a stretch. Numbers given in 40k fluff for troop sizes are hilariously low. If we're being "realistic", then you would need tens of millions to defend an entire planet. For reference, the Nazis needed about 5 million to unsuccessfully invade a small portion of Russia. To adequately defend 7 planets would require at hundreds of millions easily, let alone the many colonies and smaller septs.

I was just reading the first Cain novel today and the Commissar himself mentions the Imperial Guard has 30,000 men on a planet, "more than enough" to protect it from the Tau. In reality, this is about 1/5 of the troops Germany used to occupy Norway during WW2, or about half of the confederate army present at Gettysburg. I think it's safe to totally throw out what fluff authors have put forth as far as numbers are concerned, if we're trying for a realistic total.

Guard are the equivalent of modern Spec Ops in skill level, supported by godlike armor on the ground, and supported by warships in orbit with the firepower to level continents in days and the precision to level a city block, to say nothing of their rapid redeployment capacity. If you had a comparable force available you could probably take every important nation on Earth, and glass any of the others if they don't submit.

Sir Pseudonymous wrote:

the color purple wrote:

Sir Pseudonymous wrote:There are only around seven full sept worlds, which on the outside might approach several billion in population. The rest of the septs would probably be closer to Cadian levels, in the low hundreds of millions on the outside. The remainder are small colonies with populations in the thousands.

However, regardless of the population, fire warriors can't number anywhere near even one billion, as that would mean there would be around five million available for every last colony if only 50% were in combat-ready condition. As they only field them in the low thousands or tens of thousands in major conflicts, this is clearly not the case, as one would expect hundreds of thousands for even minor skirmishes, let alone major engagements.

This means either their population is significantly lower, the fire caste makes up a relatively small percentage of their population, or only a very small percentage of fire caste meet the physical and psychological requirements to enter the military.

Five million for every last colony really isn't a stretch. Numbers given in 40k fluff for troop sizes are hilariously low. If we're being "realistic", then you would need tens of millions to defend an entire planet. For reference, the Nazis needed about 5 million to unsuccessfully invade a small portion of Russia. To adequately defend 7 planets would require at hundreds of millions easily, let alone the many colonies and smaller septs.

I was just reading the first Cain novel today and the Commissar himself mentions the Imperial Guard has 30,000 men on a planet, "more than enough" to protect it from the Tau. In reality, this is about 1/5 of the troops Germany used to occupy Norway during WW2, or about half of the confederate army present at Gettysburg. I think it's safe to totally throw out what fluff authors have put forth as far as numbers are concerned, if we're trying for a realistic total.

Guard are the equivalent of modern Spec Ops in skill level, supported by godlike armor on the ground, and supported by warships in orbit with the firepower to level continents in days and the precision to level a city block, to say nothing of their rapid redeployment capacity. If you had a comparable force available you could probably take every important nation on Earth, and glass any of the others if they don't submit.

Guardsmen are well trained but "special forces level" ( which by themself vary greatly in their ability to actualy wage a groundwar ) is stretching it, supported by highly inefficient armour designs and warships which are vulnerable to planetary defences unless brought in overwhelming numbers or deployed against a badly defended world.

The thread is supposed to be about the Fire Warriors, not Imperial Guard.

As several people said, there is no basis of data from which to work, thus we can only speculate as to numbers.

The same is true for most factions in the fluff. Even the numbers of SMs can only be estimated fairly roughly.

Tau are controlled by Ethereals, since an Ethereal holds absolute sway over a Tau their dedication to the cause is flawless.

Also, trying to downplay the Tau victories is silly, they fought and won. The IoM also saw fit to use both Astartes and Cadians, two factions that seldom see anything the IoM doesn't deem a notable threat. But to downplay a Warhound Titan is about as out there as it gets.

Also, with the exception of death, politics is the only way a FW leaves his position. Stated in the dex... So for all we know, yes, it is very plausible Dome training consists of drones teaching a Tau something in weeks that takes other races months to learn with actual deployments in line units making up most of their time alive.


That's getting out there though, the actual number of Tau is one of two realities...

A) A few Tau battalions can pants a few regiments..

B) The Tau have more than a few battalions...

KingDeath wrote:Guardsmen are well trained but "special forces level" ( which by themself vary greatly in their ability to actualy wage a groundwar ) is stretching it,

Admittedly a variable quantity, but one that ranges from "upper-end conventional forces" to "twice the training of a SEAL by the time they're admitted to the Guard". They're not trained to operate as Spec Ops, but in terms of combat ability they'd have an equivalent average level of capability.

supported by highly inefficient armour designs

The best modern armor would end up around AV10-11, while a Russ has a main gun that inflicts the equivalent damage of a HEAT charge at its point over every inch of an 8-13 foot radius. Efficiency of design doesn't really matter, when it's proven that they can produce many billions of their main battle tank, and likely millions of their superheavies, and those designs come out as the pinnacle of armored vehicles regardless of their potential to be much greater given the technology involved in making them work to begin with.

and warships which are vulnerable to planetary defences unless brought in overwhelming numbers or deployed against a badly defended world.

There's no land-based weapons system that can touch warships in orbit, since Titans were retconned down to a level in keeping with sanity. There is likewise no orbital defense system outside of Imperial hands (if even there) which is capable of standing up to Imperial warships, either, and if there were than the number of Guard necessary to take a planet would hardly be in question unless there was sufficient Naval force to bash the orbital defenses apart.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Nerivant wrote:

Sir Pseudonymous wrote:
This means either their population is significantly lower, the fire caste makes up a relatively small percentage of their population, or only a very small percentage of fire caste meet the physical and psychological requirements to enter the military.

On the topic of the third one, I don't think a member of the Fire caste can obtain a position outside of the military. IIRC, they stay in until they die.

Do we know that there are only pure military positions for them, though? Really, the Tau society is itself rather without much description, and parts don't really line up that well:

They're semi-post-labor, using drones for all manual labor.
They're apparently quite ascetic when it comes to luxury, since personal comfort doesn't further their "greater good".
There are only so many jobs that could be filled when all manual labor is handled by machines, most of which are engineering or research positions.
They have neither the level of development nor the level of technology that would go alongside mass employment in engineering and research, when an infinite pool of labor exists in the form of easily manufactured drones.

What is known of the Tau is incongruent with every available body being employed in such a capacity, and yet also with a significant portion of the population existing in the sort of leisure and prosperity that the mass automation of labor would create under a government concerned with its people, and a massive service industry is also incongruent with their personal asceticism.

Sir Pseudonymous wrote:
There's no land-based weapons system that can touch warships in orbit, since Titans were retconned down to a level in keeping with sanity. There is likewise no orbital defense system outside of Imperial hands (if even there) which is capable of standing up to Imperial warships, either, and if there were than the number of Guard necessary to take a planet would hardly be in question unless there was sufficient Naval force to bash the orbital defenses apart.

In the grim darkness of the far future there are no orbital defences?

Medium of Death wrote:

Sir Pseudonymous wrote:
There's no land-based weapons system that can touch warships in orbit, since Titans were retconned down to a level in keeping with sanity. There is likewise no orbital defense system outside of Imperial hands (if even there) which is capable of standing up to Imperial warships, either, and if there were than the number of Guard necessary to take a planet would hardly be in question unless there was sufficient Naval force to bash the orbital defenses apart.

In the grim darkness of the far future there are no orbital defences?

None capable of standing up to the sort of warships that escort Guard transports outside of Imperial hands, no.

BeefCakeSoup wrote:Tau are controlled by Ethereals, since an Ethereal holds absolute sway over a Tau their dedication to the cause is flawless.

Also, trying to downplay the Tau victories is silly, they fought and won. The IoM also saw fit to use both Astartes and Cadians, two factions that seldom see anything the IoM doesn't deem a notable threat. But to downplay a Warhound Titan is about as out there as it gets.

To upplay the defeat of a Warhound Titan is 'about as out there' as it gets as well. It's a scout Titan, BeefCake. We're not talking about something dangerous here.

I should also add that the only reason the Astartes and Cadians were involved with Taros is that Forge World wanted them to be. They picked a Chapter known for lightning assaults, the Raptors, and had them basically doing convoy duty. They had the Cadians operating in a mechanized column with no tank support. They had the Elysians drop with very little air cover, et al.

The whole point of Taros was that the Imperium was going to lose.

By the by: There's nothing that says 'Cadians are only deployed to the Imperium's most vital warzones'. If you're persecuting a dragging out war--would you rather keep feeding in fresh regiments, or add in a regiment from a world known for high quality of troops and which are known to work quite well with Astartes forces?
Should also add that as it stands, the numbers of Astartes involved with the Damocles Gulf Crusade depending on the source range from multiple Companies of Astartes--to the more reliable sources saying that there was a single Company, consisting of forces from 5 Chapters.

Despite this excessive chestthumping that "THE TAU DEFEATED A CRUSADE!"--it really is leaning more towards it being a stupidly pathetic force, which really should not have been named a 'Crusade' in the fluff.
But like I said earlier: anyone in the Imperial command structure can declare a crusade provided the Ecclesiarchy blesses it and the higher ups sign off on it. Even if it's a handful of ships, some transports, and a pocket full of dreams--meet that criteria and you have a Crusade!

Also, with the exception of death, politics is the only way a FW leaves his position. Stated in the dex... So for all we know, yes, it is very plausible Dome training consists of drones teaching a Tau something in weeks that takes other races months to learn with actual deployments in line units making up most of their time alive.

You realize that training assignments are considered 'a position' right? There's nothing in the codex that says "No Tau Fire Warrior ever serves as a combat instructor".
It's also worth noting that Fire Caste lifespans are barely 45-50 years.
And really, "dome training consists of drones teaching a Tau something in weeks that takes other races months to learn" is a huge stretch. The Guard and Astartes both employ hypnotic conditioning if they need to flashtrain someone. That takes a week, at best, and not only teaches them it--but makes it instinctive.

That's getting out there though, the actual number of Tau is one of two realities...

A) A few Tau battalions can pants a few regiments..

B) The Tau have more than a few battalions...

A) The Tau organizational structure, as put forth in Codex: Tau, is stupidly vague with organizations such as the 'Command'--which is 'All the forces within an assigned area of an assigned Caste'.
B) Nobody's saying they don't.

That is substantially correct. The Ecclesiarchy has a good hand in the politics of the Imperium, and the Tau certainly piss the Ecclesiarchy off.

Kanluwen wrote:They devote 100% of a sub-species to war, period. There is also no "allowing to leave only through death or politics". Where do you think the Tau get the Fire Caste instructors from? They're not magical drone Fire Caste.

Page 9 of the codex makes it sound like they just magically appear as adults on the front line, "a warrior starts life as a young line trooper". Vat babies? And they never mention training so genetic learning? Viable considering that some people say Eldar tampered with the Tau. Who knows, they might go with the Russian WW2 doctrine for training, "Here's your gun and some ammo, run out there and shoot at someone." If they make it 4 years on the line, they can become a team leader or suit pilot.

It'd be nice if GW wrote a bit more about them. I think part of what makes conversations about Tau so contentious (other than people who just hate the entire concept of the faction for some odd reason; I mean, it's just a game after all...) is that there simply isn't that much written about them so it's all opinion, hints and guesses.

Could we forgo your usual IoM chest-thumping as well?

As to force size, there's no telling.
The codex says up to 6 teams makes a cadre and 3-6 cadres makes a contingent but we have no idea how many contingents makes a battle or how many battles makes a command.

Sure we do, most battles have had a few thousand fire warriors if I remember correctly.

agnosto wrote:

Kanluwen wrote:They devote 100% of a sub-species to war, period. There is also no "allowing to leave only through death or politics". Where do you think the Tau get the Fire Caste instructors from? They're not magical drone Fire Caste.

Page 9 of the codex makes it sound like they just magically appear as adults on the front line, "a warrior starts life as a young line trooper". Vat babies? And they never mention training so genetic learning? Viable considering that some people say Eldar tampered with the Tau. Who knows, they might go with the Russian WW2 doctrine for training, "Here's your gun and some ammo, run out there and shoot at someone." If they make it 4 years on the line, they can become a team leader or suit pilot.

It'd be nice if GW wrote a bit more about them. I think part of what makes conversations about Tau so contentious (other than people who just hate the entire concept of the faction for some odd reason; I mean, it's just a game after all...) is that there simply isn't that much written about them so it's all opinion, hints and guesses.

Yeah. I don't hate the concept of the faction. I thought it was kind of neat, with them being hinted at as being 'The Last Creations of the Old Ones'.

Could we forgo your usual IoM chest-thumping as well?

It's not chest thumping to point out that the numbers of the Damocles Gulf Crusade don't add up.

And that killing a Scout Titan isn't really 'A Big Deal'.

As to force size, there's no telling.
The codex says up to 6 teams makes a cadre and 3-6 cadres makes a contingent but we have no idea how many contingents makes a battle or how many battles makes a command.

Like I said: "maddeningly vague".

Melissia wrote:Sure we do, most battles have had a few thousand fire warriors if I remember correctly.

Well there's battle, a fight, and there's battle as in the Tau force organization category which would probably be more than just a few thousand; I would think more along the lines of 10s of thousands...but who knows.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Kanluwen wrote:It's not chest thumping to point out that the numbers of the Damocles Gulf Crusade don't add up. And that killing a Scout Titan isn't really 'A Big Deal'.

Yeah GW books never add up.

We can't say noyhing for sure. Because:

- Tau have only a little over 100 worlds. 26 of those are major worlds ( with biggest population ).
- We don't know Tau estimate population per world.
- We don't even know the % of their people going into Fire Caste.
- We do know that Tau military force is not always large ( there where only around 9000 FW on Taros - correct me if I am wrong ).

We don't know exact number of Tau troops. But I can tell this for sure:

- As for military might, Tau is last in the list in the galaxy ( every other major race posses either large number of worlds or large number of spacecraft. Tau can never deploy as many troops as one of these sides deploy on some major galactic conflict).
-As for deploying military numbers Tau are third from the bottom, last are the Eldar and Dark Eldar ( Every race can deploy more forces than Tau on the battlefield, Imperium can deploy billions. Orks to, Chaos in Black Crusades to ).

Hope this will clear the things up.

Chaos also "deploys" billions of troops and not just in black crusades. You just don't hear about them outside of things which the heroes kill in novels because we don't have a LatD codex.

Kilkrazy wrote:
The same is true for most factions in the fluff. Even the numbers of SMs can only be estimated fairly roughly.

True, but we can for loyal SM, there are 1000 chapters x 1000 battle brother and you get up, down 1.000.000 Space Marines.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Melissia wrote:Chaos also "deploys" billions of troops and not just in black crusades. You just don't hear about them outside of things which the heroes kill in novels because we don't have a LatD codex.

Right, I forgotten about ordinary Human heretics and traitor PDF and Guardsman. Yeah, Chaos can have billions of solders with ease.

agnosto wrote:
It'd be nice if GW wrote a bit more about them. I think part of what makes conversations about Tau so contentious is that there simply isn't that much written about them so it's all opinion, hints and guesses.

Pretty much.

(other than people who just hate the entire concept of the faction for some odd reason; I mean, it's just a game after all...)

No one hates the Tau, it's just annoying when people try to suggest they're actually a relevant player in the larger setting, though it is naturally far worse when people try to insist the same with regards to Space Marines, either loyalist or traitor, whose total strength is easily dwarfed by even the Tau. The simple matter is there is no faction that is militarily relevant at this time beside the Imperial Guard and Navy.

Could we forgo your usual IoM chest-thumping as well?

The Imperium is simply the single largest faction aside from orks, and the single largest unified faction. For a brief overview of the other factions:

Tyranids in the better part of a millennium have managed to destroy only ~.02% of Imperial worlds, almost without exception those far from any proper military assets.
The Eldar either don't have the military might and willpower to go against the larger Imperium (Craftworlders), don't care about territory in the Materium (Dark Eldar), or even go so far as to ally with Imperial Inquisitors on occasion (Harlequins), to ignore the Space Amish (Exodites) entirely, for obvious reasons.
Orks, although overall much larger than the Imperium, are too fragmented to pose a coherent threat.
Chaos is primarily in another dimension entirely, led by beings too vast to concern themselves with any single dimension or Galaxy, with only some of their minor servants caring enough to try to enter the Materium. Chaos worshipers are rare and almost always pitifully weak, while even the strongest of them suffer from being terminally axe-crazy.
Necrons have yet to materialize as a widespread threat, and their overall numbers are completely unknown, without even any of the hints that other factions have.
Loyalist Space Marines are redundant, doing the job either of Stormtroopers or Main Battle Tanks, while not being nearly as numerous as either, nor being under the command of Imperial Military Authority.
Chaos Space Marines number in the tens of thousands, are primarily trapped in the Eye of Terror, and are led exclusively by Axe-crazy madmen.
The Tau have a total population that's dwarfed by any Imperial Hiveworld a dozen times over, and whose military would be crushed by the forces raised in a single one of the annual tithings of Armageddon (one hundred million Guardsmen, several million armored vehicles), in addition to be trapped in a tiny pocket of space, surrounded on all sides by Orks, Tyranids, and Imperial worlds.

As to force size, there's no telling.
The codex says up to 6 teams makes a cadre and 3-6 cadres makes a contingent but we have no idea how many contingents makes a battle or how many battles makes a command.

Major conflicts with hard numbers have forces in the low thousands. Presumably the Damocles crusade ran into higher numbers, seeing as how it was one hundred thousand strong and all, but they couldn't have been more than a few hundreds of thousands, on a sept world no less, or it wouldn't have dragged on nearly as long as it did after stalling.

Sir Pseudonymous wrote:The simple matter is there is no faction that is militarily relevant at this time beside the Imperial Guard and Navy.

... and Orks, and Tyranids, and Chaos (because Chaos != CSM)...


In fact, the Orks have a larger footprint on the galaxy than the Imperium does.

Skimmed IA:3 (page 146) so getting closer to an answer on population.

The Tau forces on Taros were at about 9000 firewarriors and it was a Coalition. This would be representative of an entire world's active-duty, non-PDF fire caste population.

Bear in mind we still won't know a close number because there are 20 something sept worlds of varing size and population. I don't know what world the Coalition was drawn from and this would be relevant as first and second sphere septs would probably be more developed and have higher populations thant 3rd sphere septs.

Based upon that, it's entirely foreseeable that Tau armed forces are the smallest in the galaxy.

Melissia wrote:

Sir Pseudonymous wrote:The simple matter is there is no faction that is militarily relevant at this time beside the Imperial Guard and Navy.

... and Orks, and Tyranids, and Chaos (because Chaos != CSM)...


In fact, the Orks have a larger footprint on the galaxy than the Imperium does.

Did you just skip the rest of that post? Orks fight each other more often than they fight the Imperium and Tyranids have faltered every step of the way, only managing to scratch the Imperium at its weakest points. Chaos is probably the largest threat, but it's still dwarfed by the Imperial military machine even by pure numbers, prior to taking into account the vastly greater skill levels and resources of the Imperial forces. I didn't say there's nothing for them to fight, only that there's nothing capable of threatening them.

Sir Pseudonymous wrote:

Melissia wrote:

Sir Pseudonymous wrote:The simple matter is there is no faction that is militarily relevant at this time beside the Imperial Guard and Navy.

... and Orks, and Tyranids, and Chaos (because Chaos != CSM)...


In fact, the Orks have a larger footprint on the galaxy than the Imperium does.

Did you just skip the rest of that post? Orks fight each other more often than they fight the Imperium

That's only because they hold more territory than the Imperium does. On any world where a non-Ork threat presents itself, Orks are united against it.

Ok everyone seems to have forgotten the point of this thread. This thread is not about the IG and their skill level, It's not about listing who can beat up who, and it's not about that titan they killed. Put it away. This thread is about guesstimating the number of fire warriors in service. Any talk about IG or anyone else dosen't help with that goal.

Ok back to my numbers. As you know, I am working from the bottom up here trying to figure out about how many fire warriors are battle ready and able to be deployed. The total number of fire warriors would be bigger I think, but they would be land bound and in reserve.

92 firewarriors in a manta
2 manta in a emissary class space ship (It has space for two and sense it is a diplomatic ship I figure the bombers are just kept on the escort ships. )
100 emissary class ships (I am actually low balling the number here. That is only one ship per world. Maybe I should make a distinction between ships used in diplomacy and ships on potrole)

18400

That gives us 18400 fire warriors in a diplomatic fleets and that makes sense. Their main gold is diplomacy and the 164 fire warriors are just trouble shooters.

92 firewarriors in a manta
8 manta fin in a custodian (I am filling all the spaces with manta, as the custodian comes with 3 escorts who each have 2 slots for the bombers, so the custodian can focus on carrying the troops.)
20 custodian spaceships (They are like aircraft carriers 20 actually seems a bit high)

14720

That gives us 14720 fire warriors on custodian ships. Seems a little low on a logical scale, but it matches up with the numbers that the tau send to battles.

33120 total. That number is way low maybe I missed something or maybe this is just a bad way to do the numbers.

There really isn't hard figures on the matter. We can roughly say that they would number in the several millions, due to the fact that the stated number for the third sphere of expansion was a million, and that the numbers of Fire Warriors deployed in war-zones that we know of right now are only in the thousands, as in, around 10,000.

Brother Coa wrote:

Kilkrazy wrote:
The same is true for most factions in the fluff. Even the numbers of SMs can only be estimated fairly roughly.

True, but we can for loyal SM, there are 1000 chapters x 1000 battle brother and you get up, down 1.000.000 Space Marines.


.

Yes, the problem is there aren't exactly 1,000 chapters and each one doesn't contain exactly 1,000 SMs. In fact most contain fewer as they have taken losses and need to rebuild.

So really, between a few 'rebel' chapters like SW and BS A (?) who deploy several thousand troops, and chapters who have taken a beating and are still rebuilding -- some of them only have a few hundred troops -- we can only speculate as to the number of SMs. It's probably between 500,000 and possibly over 1,000,000.

And that is the most precisely defined and extensively written about force in the fluff.

nomotog wrote:You forgot the kroot, the vespin, the human worlds. Each on would have a different density and some are sept worlds. That should eat quite a few numbers.

Fire Caste only exists in the Tau race. And no, the caste system is not introduced to other races.

nomotog wrote:What if we go from the bottom up. Find out how many fire warriors fir in a manta, how many manta fit into a spaceship, how many spaceships in a fleet, and then how many fleets they have.

This is as logical as estimating the population of Africa by counting the cars on the continent and the capacity of each car.

It's well over 500,000, although I would doubt it would be over 1,000,000. There's roughly a thousand chapters. Over a thousand battle brothers each. Over a million if there are NO casualties, which there are. So, on average there would probably be about 50ish casualties per chapter, giving about 975ish on average. Now, there are more chapters that are under strength than there are chapters who field more than a thousand by standard, so say about 950 on average. So, I put the ROUGH number of Space Marines in the whole Imperium at about 950,000.

This is quite off-topic so lets leave the estimations of other forces out of this conversation unless it's relevant to the argument.

Your estimation is relevant in the sense that you've had to speculate about the figures per chapter, rather than rely on actual data.

I'm not saying you're wrong. I'm saying that there is more fluff about Space Marines in the SM codex than there is about Tau in all the GW publications put together.

We cannot do more than estimate the number of SMs with a fairly wide margin, so the number of Fire Warriors is pure guesswork.

Of course, there is a lot more data on Space Marine numbers, but there's nothing solid other than rough numbers like a thousand in a chapter, when we know that there are many who have far less (Crimson Fists), or far more (Black Templars).
It's completely true that my estimation was just an estimation. Fire warriors have nothing of the sort, except the stated numbers of the Third Sphere and specific engagements, which, whilst giving us a very basic idea through interpreting those on a generalized scale isn't accurate, is not hard evidence to give us any idea at all.

Yes, exactly.

Kilkrazy wrote:
So really, between a few 'rebel' chapters like SW and BS A (?) who deploy several thousand troops, and chapters who have taken a beating and are still rebuilding -- some of them only have a few hundred troops -- we can only speculate as to the number of SMs. It's probably between 500,000 and possibly over 1,000,000.

One guy actually count them once. We came to conclusion that there are around 1.300.000 Space Marines in the Imperium...

There are no references to every single Chapter, and certainly not to the VAST majority of even the known chapters. Basically, that guys answer is just wrong, as there are no sources for him to draw on other than blanket statements that are in no way definite.

iproxtaco wrote:It's well over 500,000, although I would doubt it would be over 1,000,000. There's roughly a thousand chapters. Over a thousand battle brothers each. Over a million if there are NO casualties, which there are. So, on average there would probably be about 50ish casualties per chapter, giving about 975ish on average. Now, there are more chapters that are under strength than there are chapters who field more than a thousand by standard, so say about 950 on average. So, I put the ROUGH number of Space Marines in the whole Imperium at about 950,000.

And before we go off topic and all.... finial word to this is that you forgotten that every captain of the company can form a chapter of his own. We counted the several new founding chapters. That BT actually umber now more than 6000 ( even they have divided into chapters ). And we count vehicle crews, they are also Space Marines.

Now back to Tau fire cast...

Brother Coa wrote:

iproxtaco wrote:It's well over 500,000, although I would doubt it would be over 1,000,000. There's roughly a thousand chapters. Over a thousand battle brothers each. Over a million if there are NO casualties, which there are. So, on average there would probably be about 50ish casualties per chapter, giving about 975ish on average. Now, there are more chapters that are under strength than there are chapters who field more than a thousand by standard, so say about 950 on average. So, I put the ROUGH number of Space Marines in the whole Imperium at about 950,000.

And before we go off topic and all.... finial word to this is that you forgotten that every captain of the company can form a chapter of his own. We counted the several new founding chapters. That BT actually umber now more than 6000 ( even they have divided into chapters ). And we count vehicle crews, they are also Space Marines.

Now back to Tau fire cast...

Where is your source for that?
Chapter founding don't work like that?
A captain cannot just up and leave to make a enw chapter when he feels like it.
PM me since it would be Off-topic to further discuss it here.

Brother Coa wrote:

iproxtaco wrote:It's well over 500,000, although I would doubt it would be over 1,000,000. There's roughly a thousand chapters. Over a thousand battle brothers each. Over a million if there are NO casualties, which there are. So, on average there would probably be about 50ish casualties per chapter, giving about 975ish on average. Now, there are more chapters that are under strength than there are chapters who field more than a thousand by standard, so say about 950 on average. So, I put the ROUGH number of Space Marines in the whole Imperium at about 950,000.

And before we go off topic and all.... finial word to this is that you forgotten that every captain of the company can form a chapter of his own. We counted the several new founding chapters. That BT actually umber now more than 6000 ( even they have divided into chapters ). And we count vehicle crews, they are also Space Marines.

Now back to Tau fire cast...

Every captain can form a chapter of his own? Where the feth is that from? New chapters are exceedingly rare, with many being destroyed and being pushed to the brink. I also said there were more than 1000 per standard chapter, but there are no exact figures to draw that from, other than the "theres roughly 1000 chapters" and "theres max a 1000 per [i]codex[i] chapter". Did this estimation take into account the casualties of the chapters and the fact that there are many chapters with far fewer than 1000? Or was is a massive generalization with no sense of realism? Even them I don't understand where the other 300,000 comes from.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
The discussion on numbers of Space Marines has it's own thread now, please don't continue in this thread. The most recent post has been copied over. Back to the Tau.

Brother Coa wrote:

Kilkrazy wrote:
So really, between a few 'rebel' chapters like SW and BS A (?) who deploy several thousand troops, and chapters who have taken a beating and are still rebuilding -- some of them only have a few hundred troops -- we can only speculate as to the number of SMs. It's probably between 500,000 and possibly over 1,000,000.

One guy actually count them once. We came to conclusion that there are around 1.300.000 Space Marines in the Imperium...

Off Topic.

agnosto wrote:Skimmed IA:3 (page 146) so getting closer to an answer on population.

The Tau forces on Taros were at about 9000 firewarriors and it was a Coalition. This would be representative of an entire world's active-duty, non-PDF fire caste population.

Bear in mind we still won't know a close number because there are 20 something sept worlds of varing size and population. I don't know what world the Coalition was drawn from and this would be relevant as first and second sphere septs would probably be more developed and have higher populations thant 3rd sphere septs.

Based upon that, it's entirely foreseeable that Tau armed forces are the smallest in the galaxy.

As i understood it a "Command" means all the Firecast forces at a given location, irrespective of where the Firewarriors originaly came from.
So if three Septworlds send a dozen cadres each to a world which has to be conquered then that world's Command would be 36 cadres. If those three septworlds send only a single cadre then that world's command
would be three cadres. So while Taros's Command might have been 9000 Firewarriors strong it is quite likely that the Commands of the Septworlds from where those Firewarriors came from were much larger, otherwise your average Killkroozer would have a fieldday with almost the entire Tauempire
Still, there is no denying that the Tau Empire most likely has the smallest military of all the playable 40k species ( at least until we get some reliable informations on Craftworld populations ).

It's more than likely, although not definite. Command is also defined as the forces of a caste in an area, so those Fire Warriors would be in Command of their own, and not part of a larger one where the rest are not present.

KingDeath wrote:
As i understood it a "Command" means all the Firecast forces at a given location, irrespective of where the Firewarriors originaly came from.
So if three Septworlds send a dozen cadres each to a world which has to be conquered then that world's Command would be 36 cadres. If those three septworlds send only a single cadre then that world's command
would be three cadres. So while Taros's Command might have been 9000 Firewarriors strong it is quite likely that the Commands of the Septworlds from where those Firewarriors came from were much larger, otherwise your average Killkroozer would have a fieldday with almost the entire Tauempire
Still, there is no denying that the Tau Empire most likely has the smallest military of all the playable 40k species ( at least until we get some reliable informations on Craftworld populations ).

Yeah, the next sentence in that paragraph on p.23 also says that "in all likelihood the location will be a world, though it could be a planetary system." Later is says that all the Firewarriors on Nimbosa would be called "Fire Caste Command Nimbosa". This is why the septs have different colored uniforms I imagine so that they can easily identify which command they are a part of. Different Sept worlds will have different populations depending on what the planet will support and the age of the sept (what sphere) and we don't know what sept the Taros forces were from.

That's just they way I understood what was written; I can completely see your point of view as well.

Kilkrazy wrote:

Brother Coa wrote:

Kilkrazy wrote:
So really, between a few 'rebel' chapters like SW and BS A (?) who deploy several thousand troops, and chapters who have taken a beating and are still rebuilding -- some of them only have a few hundred troops -- we can only speculate as to the number of SMs. It's probably between 500,000 and possibly over 1,000,000.

One guy actually count them once. We came to conclusion that there are around 1.300.000 Space Marines in the Imperium...

Off Topic.

One shouldn't have started that debate here: http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/374210.page#2905112
So relocate it there: http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/374501.page


Did we find valid numbers of fire warriors yet?
Maybe not. And fire caste are every Tau born into that caste, right? so non-fire warrior Tau would count too.
I'd put that debate on a hold until GW releases another Tau codex.

1hadhq wrote:
Did we find valid numbers of fire warriors yet?
Maybe not. And fire caste are every Tau born into that caste, right? so non-fire warrior Tau would count too.
I'd put that debate on a hold until GW releases another Tau codex.

We cannot say for sure. We lack data for that. All we know for sure is that they are the least numerous fighting force in the galaxy ( I count factions not army's ).

Everyone born into the fire caste is a firewarrior. They are born and bred for war.

agnosto wrote:Everyone born into the fire caste is a firewarrior. They are born and bred for war.

I know this is off-topic but... how are Tau born? And how they define witch baby is for Earth and witch is for Fire cast?

Brother Coa wrote:

agnosto wrote:Everyone born into the fire caste is a firewarrior. They are born and bred for war.

I know this is off-topic but... how are Tau born? And how they define witch baby is for Earth and witch is for Fire cast?

I don't know how they are born, but since caste interbreeding is forbidden a child will join the caste of it's parents.

Oah, I leave this thread a day and it gets up to three pages. For me, that's like leaving your car overnight and waking up to find you've been in a coma for the past 3 years and the world is dominated by robots.

Anyway, back to discussion:

@BrotherCoa-the Tau aren't the smallest fighting force in the galaxy, that would be the Space Marines or one of the hundreds of even smaller alien races. Remember, excluding the Warp the Tau control the second-largest united empire in the galaxy

Yeah, they are, as Space Marines are a force within the Imperium. And he was referring to them as the smallest fighting force of all the major factions.

KingDeath wrote:

Brother Coa wrote:

agnosto wrote:Everyone born into the fire caste is a firewarrior. They are born and bred for war.

I know this is off-topic but... how are Tau born? And how they define witch baby is for Earth and witch is for Fire cast?

I don't know how they are born, but since caste interbreeding is forbidden a child will join the caste of it's parents.

At this point, each caste is a distinct subspecies. There are very few questions as to what they'll be doing after they're born.

Sir Pseudonymous wrote:There are only around seven full sept worlds, which on the outside might approach several billion in population. The rest of the septs would probably be closer to Cadian levels, in the low hundreds of millions on the outside. The remainder are small colonies with populations in the thousands.

However, regardless of the population, fire warriors can't number anywhere near even one billion, as that would mean there would be around five million available for every last colony if only 50% were in combat-ready condition. As they only field them in the low thousands or tens of thousands in major conflicts, this is clearly not the case, as one would expect hundreds of thousands for even minor skirmishes, let alone major engagements.

This means either their population is significantly lower, the fire caste makes up a relatively small percentage of their population, or only a very small percentage of fire caste meet the physical and psychological requirements to enter the military.

23 actually, 23 septs:

T'au
Tau'n
D'yanoi
Bork'an
Dal'yth
Fal'shia
Vior'la
Sa'cea

Au'taal
N'dras
Ke'lshan
Elsy'eir
Tash'var
Vash'ya
T'olku

Ksi'm'yen
Fi'rios
Me'lek
Es'tau
T'ros
Sha'draig
Ka'mais
Ho'sarn

Ya.

Ya.

I know. I win.

Anyways, by your logic, every single U.S. soldier currently in the military should be present at each and every engagement "because they have the numbers".




Automatically Appended Next Post:

Brother Coa wrote:

agnosto wrote:Everyone born into the fire caste is a firewarrior. They are born and bred for war.

I know this is off-topic but... how are Tau born? And how they define witch baby is for Earth and witch is for Fire cast?

Each caste is a sub-species.

Fire warriors are the largest Tau, Air caste are the tallest (and lankiest), Earth caste are the smartest, Water caste are somewhere in between but presumably are charismatic and Ethereals have freaky looking ridges on their faces.

im2randomghgh wrote:

Sir Pseudonymous wrote:There are only around seven full sept worlds, which on the outside might approach several billion in population. The rest of the septs would probably be closer to Cadian levels, in the low hundreds of millions on the outside. The remainder are small colonies with populations in the thousands.

However, regardless of the population, fire warriors can't number anywhere near even one billion, as that would mean there would be around five million available for every last colony if only 50% were in combat-ready condition. As they only field them in the low thousands or tens of thousands in major conflicts, this is clearly not the case, as one would expect hundreds of thousands for even minor skirmishes, let alone major engagements.

This means either their population is significantly lower, the fire caste makes up a relatively small percentage of their population, or only a very small percentage of fire caste meet the physical and psychological requirements to enter the military.

23 actually, 23 septs:

T'au
Tau'n
D'yanoi
Bork'an
Dal'yth
Fal'shia
Vior'la
Sa'cea

Au'taal
N'dras
Ke'lshan
Elsy'eir
Tash'var
Vash'ya
T'olku

Ksi'm'yen
Fi'rios
Me'lek
Es'tau
T'ros
Sha'draig
Ka'mais
Ho'sarn

Ya.

Ya.

I know. I win.

Anyways, by your logic, every single U.S. soldier currently in the military should be present at each and every engagement "because they have the numbers".

You don't win. He said specifically 7 fully developed septs. There are only 3 major ones-the rest are pretty small. Still, I'd say the numbers of each sept average out at roughly equal to Earth-Earth is pretty sparcely populated by the standards o the 41st millenium and doesn't have cities in the sky.

TrollPie wrote:

im2randomghgh wrote:

Sir Pseudonymous wrote:There are only around seven full sept worlds, which on the outside might approach several billion in population. The rest of the septs would probably be closer to Cadian levels, in the low hundreds of millions on the outside. The remainder are small colonies with populations in the thousands.

However, regardless of the population, fire warriors can't number anywhere near even one billion, as that would mean there would be around five million available for every last colony if only 50% were in combat-ready condition. As they only field them in the low thousands or tens of thousands in major conflicts, this is clearly not the case, as one would expect hundreds of thousands for even minor skirmishes, let alone major engagements.

This means either their population is significantly lower, the fire caste makes up a relatively small percentage of their population, or only a very small percentage of fire caste meet the physical and psychological requirements to enter the military.

23 actually, 23 septs:

T'au
Tau'n
D'yanoi
Bork'an
Dal'yth
Fal'shia
Vior'la
Sa'cea

Au'taal
N'dras
Ke'lshan
Elsy'eir
Tash'var
Vash'ya
T'olku

Ksi'm'yen
Fi'rios
Me'lek
Es'tau
T'ros
Sha'draig
Ka'mais
Ho'sarn

Ya.

Ya.

I know. I win.

Anyways, by your logic, every single U.S. soldier currently in the military should be present at each and every engagement "because they have the numbers".

You don't win. He said specifically 7 fully developed septs. There are only 3 major ones-the rest are pretty small. Still, I'd say the numbers of each sept average out at roughly equal to Earth-Earth is pretty sparcely populated by the standards o the 41st millenium and doesn't have cities in the sky.

Sept means that it is fully developped, and these are all septs.

agnosto wrote:Everyone born into the fire caste is a firewarrior. They are born and bred for war.

I don't think that is true, or at least it isn't the point of the query.

Presumably child Fire Caste and retired Fire Caste are not in the army, and do not count as Warriors, except perhaps in a formal sense.

Else there would be no distinction between Fire Caste and Fire Warrior, and there is one.

Every Caste needs a major civilian component to keep the population growing, the Fire Caste more so than any of the others.

Kilkrazy wrote:

agnosto wrote:Everyone born into the fire caste is a firewarrior. They are born and bred for war.

I don't think that is true, or at least it isn't the point of the query.

Presumably child Fire Caste and retired Fire Caste are not in the army, and do not count as Warriors, except perhaps in a formal sense.

Else there would be no distinction between Fire Caste and Fire Warrior, and there is one.

Fire Warriors rarely retire, as Tau are usually promoted based on age...even old people can pilot suits. And those that do become simply too old become military advisors-tacticians basically.

Kilkrazy wrote:

agnosto wrote:Everyone born into the fire caste is a firewarrior. They are born and bred for war.

I don't think that is true, or at least it isn't the point of the query.

Presumably child Fire Caste and retired Fire Caste are not in the army, and do not count as Warriors, except perhaps in a formal sense.

Else there would be no distinction between Fire Caste and Fire Warrior, and there is one.

The codex says they start their lives on the front lines and the only exit from the army is through death or promotion to the grand council.

So little is written, for all we know they are "born" fully developed with enough racial memory to hold and fire a pulse rifle. With a 40-45 year lifespan and at least half of it in the trenches, if they aren't born fully developed, they have an accelerated growth rate and short childhoods. It takes 16 years of full combat experience to get promoted up the ranks..

They reach mental and physical maturity at ~10 (forget where I read this) and only sleep for 4.5 hours a day (that's at max, at min they sleep 2.25H a day) so they still have long enough waking lives.

Also, the only way possible to retire is to spend four years as a Shas'O, then you can either join the council or retire (I only know of Puretide retiring).

im2randomghgh wrote:

T'ros


Sept means that it is fully developped, and these are all septs.

T'ros is a fully developed sept? It has 12.000+ people living on it. There is more people living in my neighborhood then in entire fully developed Tau sept?

im2randomghgh wrote:
Also, the only way possible to retire is to spend four years as a Shas'O, then you can either join the council or retire (I only know of Puretide retiring).

Retiring is joining the council, and playing a greater part in Tau politics.

They never stop contributing in some way.

Brother Coa wrote:

im2randomghgh wrote:

T'ros


Sept means that it is fully developped, and these are all septs.

T'ros is a fully developed sept? It has 12.000+ people living on it. There is more people living in my neighborhood then in entire fully developed Tau sept?

12000+ Tau. It is mainly a Gue'vesa world.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
it has 12 million humans

im2randomghgh wrote:

Brother Coa wrote:

im2randomghgh wrote:

T'ros


Sept means that it is fully developped, and these are all septs.

T'ros is a fully developed sept? It has 12.000+ people living on it. There is more people living in my neighborhood then in entire fully developed Tau sept?

12000+ Tau. It is mainly a Gue'vesa world.

Still you said FULLY DEVELOPED SEPT. That's like saying "city of New York with 50.000 people". After this post why would we assume that even the T'au have significantly larger population?

T'ros is not developed Sept world, it is a mining colony.

There are 17 fully developed sept worlds, 3 smalled septa and 2 recently colonized.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

im2randomghgh wrote:
it has 12 million humans

That's again small population. Moscow have 25.000.000 people.

Brother Coa wrote:

im2randomghgh wrote:

Brother Coa wrote:

im2randomghgh wrote:

T'ros


Sept means that it is fully developped, and these are all septs.

T'ros is a fully developed sept? It has 12.000+ people living on it. There is more people living in my neighborhood then in entire fully developed Tau sept?

12000+ Tau. It is mainly a Gue'vesa world.

Still you said FULLY DEVELOPED SEPT. That's like saying "city of New York with 50.000 people". After this post why would we assume that even the T'au have significantly larger population?

T'ros is not developed Sept world, it is a mining colony.

There are 17 fully developed sept worlds, 3 smalled septa and 2 recently colonized.

Wait, only members of the Tau race count towards the development of a Tau Empire Sept?

When trying to get an indication of the population of THE TAU, then yes, absolutely.

Nerivant wrote:
Wait, only members of the Tau race count towards the development of a Tau Empire Sept?

Last I checked - Only Tau have Sept's. Kroot and Vespid don't.
And last I checked - only Tau warriors can be in fire cast.

iproxtaco wrote:When trying to get an indication of the population of THE TAU, then yes, absolutely.

But we're trying to get an approximate populaton for the Fire Caste in particular. Whether that includes alien auxilaries, I don't know. Are Kroot full members of the Fire Caste or just meatshields? I guess it's like asking whether tins of spam are members of the USMC for all the Tau care about them...

No, Kroot are auxiliaries, so when trying to get an understanding of THE TAU, the population of any allied races has absolutely nothing to do with it.

Brother Coa wrote:
And last I checked - only Tau warriors can be in fire cast.

And I'm not trying to argue that fact.

But trying to calculate the number of Fire caste members and ignoring their numerous auxiliaries is pointless.

Actually, it's pointless to consider them, as they aren't Tau, and therefore aren't members of the Fire Caste.

I'd say for the time being a safe estimate for the amount of of Tau FWs in an Empire numbering in the billions is millions.

Daly'yth Prime (one planet) had billions and the Tau Empire is noted as being densely populated despite being small.

Given the lifestyle of Fire Warriors, combined with the relative safe bet that a population of billions, contains a plausible number of one cast, I'd say millions is a very conservative bet.


We can't really use certain battles as good number references. While they can be an indicator, they aren't always accurate. Tau battles use a doctrine that is more reliant on tactics than endless numbers. Using the Astartes as an example, we tend to see Companies of mixed origin or small squads on missions, but that doesn't mean we are seeing the full extent of the Space Marines in any given battle.

iproxtaco wrote:Actually, it's pointless to consider them, as they aren't Tau, and therefore aren't members of the Fire Caste.

And calculating the number of Tau in the Fire caste is like trying to calculate the number of abhumans in the Imperial Guard; you're not getting the entire picture.

So how does calculating the number of Kroot on a Tau sept benefit the discussion, pray tell?

BeefCakeSoup wrote:
Daly'yth Prime (one planet) had billions and the Tau Empire is noted as being densely populated despite being small.

Where does it say that? For this planet to have billions?

iproxtaco wrote:So how does calculating the number of Kroot on a Tau sept benefit the discussion, pray tell?

Because the members of the Tau race who are biologically part of the Fire caste and the Tau and auxiliaries who are part of the Fire caste military are two completely different things.

Brother Coa wrote:

Nerivant wrote:
Wait, only members of the Tau race count towards the development of a Tau Empire Sept?

Last I checked - Only Tau have Sept's. Kroot and Vespid don't.
And last I checked - only Tau warriors can be in fire cast.

No, the auxilliaries are part of the caste, but because of them being aliens, their race IS their rank=the reason why there aren't any vespid Shas'O.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

iproxtaco wrote:No, Kroot are auxiliaries, so when trying to get an understanding of THE TAU, the population of any allied races has absolutely nothing to do with it.

In the 17th century the French army used aboriginal auxilliaries, would you not count them as fighting for the french?

iproxtaco wrote:So how does calculating the number of Kroot on a Tau sept benefit the discussion, pray tell?

It can give us a basis for the total number of kroot working for the Empire. An extremely rough and inaccurate basis that won't help at all, but a basis none the less.

BeefCakeSoup wrote:
Daly'yth Prime (one planet) had billions and the Tau Empire is noted as being densely populated despite being small.

Where does it say that? For this planet to have billions?

Why wouldn't it? A planet roughly the size of Earth, presumably with less water coverage, with a lot of the population in orbital stations and a decent quality and distribution of housing could easily hold billions of people. Why leave half of it empty? The Tau are, as he said, densely populated (source: the core rulebook, the Tau 'dex and pretty much every other mention of the Tau); this isn't true if they have almost empty planets, no matter how close they are together.

Also, the auxilliaries are important, as I have heard that (numerically, but not in terms of actually might) the kroot in the Tau military out-number the Tau.

im2randomghgh wrote:
No, the auxilliaries are part of the caste, but because of them being aliens, their race IS their rank=the reason why there aren't any vespid Shas'O.

So you are saying that Kroot and Vespid are also in the fire cast? Not acording to Lexicanum:

"Shas - Fire caste
Members of the Fire caste are the warriors of the Tau Empire, and as such are most often seen on the field of battle. They are taller and stronger than the members of the other castes, although still weaker and shorter than the average human. These traits come from the Fire Caste's origin on the plains of T'au, where they were hunters and warriors. Tau from the world of Vior'la tend to have slightly greater muscle mass than the norm because of the stronger gravity of that planet. These warriors are known as Fire Warriors.
Rising through the ranks
Provided the warrior survives 4 years of active duty, he undergoes the first Trial by Fire, which can be anything from mere gladiatorial affairs to trial by constant combat. If the Shas'la survives his first Trial by Fire, he is promoted to the rank of Shas'ui, or Veteran. For every consecutive four years of service, the Fire Warrior undergoes another Trial. The higher one's rank within the Fire Caste, the more likely one is to be a Battlesuit pilot. Upon attaining the rank of "O", a member of the Fire Caste may be allowed to retire from active duty and become an advisor to the Tau military's command structure, the Shas'ar'tol. Other than death this is the only way to leave the Tau military."

There is no mention of aliens anywhere. Kroot and Vespid are in their army's fighting alongside Tau. They are not part of Tau fire cast at all.

In the 17th century the French army used aboriginal auxilliaries, would you not count them as fighting for the french?

Because Human military history don't have any links with the Tau.

Brother Coa wrote:
There is no mention of aliens anywhere. Kroot and Vespid are in their army's fighting alongside Tau. They are not part of Tau fire cast at all.

But they are part of the Fire caste military.

im2randomghgh wrote:Also, the auxilliaries are important, as I have heard that (numerically, but not in terms of actually might) the kroot in the Tau military out-number the Tau.

*Sigh* they are not the part of the Tau military. They are fighting for the Tau but they are not part of the fire cast. Same as Guardsman are not part of Space Marine Chapter, even if they are auxiliaries to the Marines.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Nerivant wrote:

Brother Coa wrote:
There is no mention of aliens anywhere. Kroot and Vespid are in their army's fighting alongside Tau. They are not part of Tau fire cast at all.

But they are part of the Fire caste military.

So Kroot and Vespid are carrying Pulse Rifles and have armor on all their body and they excel in range fir support?
They are part of the TAU MILITARY FORCE not TAU FIRE CAST.

Brother Coa wrote:

*Sigh* they are not the part of the Tau military.

Oh, really?

Auxiliaries in a Hunter Cadre are detached from a higher level of organization. The codex specifically mentions the Command as such a level. A Command is all of the members of a given caste in a given location.

Nerivant wrote:

Brother Coa wrote:

*Sigh* they are not the part of the Tau military.

Oh, really?

Auxiliaries in a Hunter Cadre are detached from a higher level of organization. The codex specifically mentions the Command as such a level. A Command is all of the members of a given caste in a given location.

I meant Tau as TAU. They are part of Tau Empire military.

And did you just said that Kroots andVEspid are members of the fire caste?
What's next? Air Caste Kroot or wather cast Vespid

Brother Coa wrote:

Nerivant wrote:

Brother Coa wrote:

*Sigh* they are not the part of the Tau military.

Oh, really?

Auxiliaries in a Hunter Cadre are detached from a higher level of organization. The codex specifically mentions the Command as such a level. A Command is all of the members of a given caste in a given location.

I meant Tau as TAU. They are part of Tau Empire military.

And did you just said that Kroots andVEspid are members of the fire caste?
What's next? Air Caste Kroot or wather cast Vespid

Yes, I said they are part of the Fire caste military.

If they are part of a Command, then they are included with all Fire caste forces in a location. If they're attached to a Cadre, they're still part of the Fire caste military.

Nerivant wrote:

Brother Coa wrote:

Nerivant wrote:

Brother Coa wrote:

*Sigh* they are not the part of the Tau military.

Oh, really?

Auxiliaries in a Hunter Cadre are detached from a higher level of organization. The codex specifically mentions the Command as such a level. A Command is all of the members of a given caste in a given location.

I meant Tau as TAU. They are part of Tau Empire military.

And did you just said that Kroots andVEspid are members of the fire caste?
What's next? Air Caste Kroot or wather cast Vespid

Yes, I said they are part of the Fire caste military.

If they are part of a Command, then they are included with all Fire caste forces in a location. If they're attached to a Cadre, they're still part of the Fire caste military.

All right

Now back to OP. Since their main world is heavily populated giving the sources from the books, FW must number in high millions.
Even we can't say that for sure because we don't know the % of the Tau population in the army.

Brother Coa wrote:

im2randomghgh wrote:Also, the auxilliaries are important, as I have heard that (numerically, but not in terms of actually might) the kroot in the Tau military out-number the Tau.

*Sigh* they are not the part of the Tau military. They are fighting for the Tau but they are not part of the fire cast.

#1, no one is part of the fire cast, some Tau are part of the Fire CASTE though.

#2, Yes, they are part of the Tau military, rather than fighting alongside them. They are 100% integrated into Hunter Cadres (Tau codex pg.22)

#3 actually shapers DO use pulse rifles, Vespid DO have body armour similar to that of the Tau (obviously modded cause of the vastly different anatomies) and basic kroot rifle/vespid neutron is alien technology AUGMENTED by Tau technology (they are both pulse weapons)

Kroot Rifles: "A primitive slug-thrower relying on chemical propellant and the transfer of kinetic energy. The Tau have adapted the weapon to fire a charged pulse round..."-codex Tau Empire.

Vespid Neutron Blaster: "The weapon carried by the stingwings is a HYBRID OF VESPID AND TAU TECHNOLOGY...-codex Tau Empire


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Brother Coa wrote:

Nerivant wrote:

Brother Coa wrote:

Nerivant wrote:

Brother Coa wrote:

*Sigh* they are not the part of the Tau military.

Oh, really?

Auxiliaries in a Hunter Cadre are detached from a higher level of organization. The codex specifically mentions the Command as such a level. A Command is all of the members of a given caste in a given location.

I meant Tau as TAU. They are part of Tau Empire military.

And did you just said that Kroots andVEspid are members of the fire caste?
What's next? Air Caste Kroot or wather cast Vespid

Yes, I said they are part of the Fire caste military.

If they are part of a Command, then they are included with all Fire caste forces in a location. If they're attached to a Cadre, they're still part of the Fire caste military.

All right

Now back to OP. Since their main world is heavily populated giving the sources from the books, FW must number in high millions.
Even we can't say that for sure because we don't know the % of the Tau population in the army.

...Well kroot and Demiurg ships do work in support of the Air Caste, and kroot are sometimes used to repel boarding actions...

Nerivant wrote:

Brother Coa wrote:

*Sigh* they are not the part of the Tau military.

Oh, really?

Auxiliaries in a Hunter Cadre are detached from a higher level of organization. The codex specifically mentions the Command as such a level. A Command is all of the members of a given caste in a given location.

The codex also only counts the number of firewarrior teams as comprising a cadre. If you look at the force organization chart, sure it has pictures of some kroot and vespid in there but those teams are just auxilliaries, not members of the fire caste.

If you want a historical perspective; look at the Roman Empire. The Romans employed auxilliaries from many nations but they were never intrinsically part of the military. The marched with the army, fought with the army and even got rich with the army but they were never "Roman" (except for the few that earned citizenship).

Kroot, Vespid and other races are a welcome addition to the greater good but even the codex states that the Tau are "first among equals".

Also, there is no "Fire Caste Military" there is just the combined forces of the Tau which are comprized of ground troops (Fire Caste) air support (Air Caste) and support personel (Water and Earth Caste). I've never heard of a kroot or vespid being called a member of the fire caste (doesn't mean I'm right, I just have never heard of it).

agnosto wrote:

Nerivant wrote:

Brother Coa wrote:

*Sigh* they are not the part of the Tau military.

Oh, really?

Auxiliaries in a Hunter Cadre are detached from a higher level of organization. The codex specifically mentions the Command as such a level. A Command is all of the members of a given caste in a given location.

The codex also only counts the number of firewarrior teams as comprising a cadre. If you look at the force organization chart, sure it has pictures of some kroot and vespid in there but those teams are just auxilliaries, not members of the fire caste.

If you want a historical perspective; look at the Roman Empire. The Romans employed auxilliaries from many nations but they were never intrinsically part of the military. The marched with the army, fought with the army and even got rich with the army but they were never "Roman" (except for the few that earned citizenship).

Kroot, Vespid and other races are a welcome addition to the greater good but even the codex states that the Tau are "first among equals".

Also, there is no "Fire Caste Military" there is just the combined forces of the Tau which are comprized of ground troops (Fire Caste) air support (Air Caste) and support personel (Water and Earth Caste). I've never heard of a kroot or vespid being called a member of the fire caste (doesn't mean I'm right, I just have never heard of it).

If auxiliaries fall under a Fire caste Command, how are they not part of the Fire caste?

The kroot, the vespin and the rest are a part of the army. They are just not part of the caste. If we want to know how strong the army is then you include the kroot. If you just want to know how many fire warriors they have you don't.

[bla my brain broke]

Nerivant wrote:

agnosto wrote:

Nerivant wrote:

Brother Coa wrote:

*Sigh* they are not the part of the Tau military.

Oh, really?

Auxiliaries in a Hunter Cadre are detached from a higher level of organization. The codex specifically mentions the Command as such a level. A Command is all of the members of a given caste in a given location.

The codex also only counts the number of firewarrior teams as comprising a cadre. If you look at the force organization chart, sure it has pictures of some kroot and vespid in there but those teams are just auxilliaries, not members of the fire caste.

If you want a historical perspective; look at the Roman Empire. The Romans employed auxilliaries from many nations but they were never intrinsically part of the military. The marched with the army, fought with the army and even got rich with the army but they were never "Roman" (except for the few that earned citizenship).

Kroot, Vespid and other races are a welcome addition to the greater good but even the codex states that the Tau are "first among equals".

Also, there is no "Fire Caste Military" there is just the combined forces of the Tau which are comprized of ground troops (Fire Caste) air support (Air Caste) and support personel (Water and Earth Caste). I've never heard of a kroot or vespid being called a member of the fire caste (doesn't mean I'm right, I just have never heard of it).

If auxiliaries fall under a Fire caste Command, how are they not part of the Fire caste?

You missed the whole historical analogy.

Ok, closer to home. A UN force goes into X country. An American General my be in charge but that doesn't make the pakistani forces present American, does it?
Another example. In Afghanistan, Afghani army personnel go on joint missions with US soldiers, they are answerable to their chain of command that is working with the US forces.

They are not "part" of the army. The travel with, fight along side, share experiences with the army but they are not part of it. In fact, Kroot are noted to come and go and you'll hardly ever see the same group at the same battle. As far as command goes, Kroot can have their own commanders in the form of Shapers and Vespid have strain leaders. In a real world scenario, they would just be cooperating forces that are informally attached to a cadre....thus the term attache' (sorry too lazy to put the accent in the right spot).

Here's a good read into how I believe the Kroot and Vespid fit within the overal scheme of things:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Auxiliaries_(Roman_military)
Look under the heading "Irregular Allied Forces."

agnosto wrote:
Ok, closer to home. A UN force goes into X country. An American General my be in charge but that doesn't make the pakistani forces present American, does it?
Another example. In Afghanistan, Afghani army personnel go on join missions with US soldiers, they are answerable to their chain of command that is working with the US forces.

They are not "part" of the army. The travel with, fight along side, share experiences with the army but they are not part of it. In fact, Kroot are noted to come and go and you'll hardly ever see the same group at the same battle. As far as command goes, Kroot can have their own commanders in the form of Shapers and Vespid have strain leaders. In a real world scenario, they would just be cooperating forces that are informally attached to a cadre....thus the term attache' (sorry too lazy to put the accent in the right spot).

That's a worse analogy than the first one.

Auxiliaries are not following their own chain of command. They're part of the Tau Empire.

Nerivant wrote:

agnosto wrote:
Ok, closer to home. A UN force goes into X country. An American General my be in charge but that doesn't make the pakistani forces present American, does it?
Another example. In Afghanistan, Afghani army personnel go on join missions with US soldiers, they are answerable to their chain of command that is working with the US forces.

They are not "part" of the army. The travel with, fight along side, share experiences with the army but they are not part of it. In fact, Kroot are noted to come and go and you'll hardly ever see the same group at the same battle. As far as command goes, Kroot can have their own commanders in the form of Shapers and Vespid have strain leaders. In a real world scenario, they would just be cooperating forces that are informally attached to a cadre....thus the term attache' (sorry too lazy to put the accent in the right spot).

That's a worse analogy than the first one.

Auxiliaries are not following their own chain of command. They're part of the Tau Empire.

I don't know what fluff you've been reading but I've read things over and over that state the Kroot do what they want; heck, they even covertly hire themselves out to other factions (page 17 of the codex 4th paragraph). The only Kroot world that is listed as being completely integrated into the Empire is Pech.

Again. Kroot and Vespid are listed repeatedly in the fluff as "Allies"; they aren't Tau. Show me one example of when an allied fighting force doesn't have some autonomy. There would be no need of shapers and strain leaders if the allied forces could just be led by a Shas'ui.

agnosto wrote:

Again. Kroot and Vespid are listed repeatedly in the fluff as "Allies"; they aren't Tau. Show me one example of when an allied fighting force doesn't have some autonomy. There would be no need of shapers and strain leaders if the allied forces could just be led by a Shas'ui.

The Vespid are completely integrated with the Tau, and shapers serve a purpose beyond leading squads in combat.

Indeed, Shapers are extremely important to the Kroot, far more than mere squad leaders.

agnosto wrote:

Nerivant wrote:

agnosto wrote:

Nerivant wrote:

Brother Coa wrote:

*Sigh* they are not the part of the Tau military.

Oh, really?

Auxiliaries in a Hunter Cadre are detached from a higher level of organization. The codex specifically mentions the Command as such a level. A Command is all of the members of a given caste in a given location.

The codex also only counts the number of firewarrior teams as comprising a cadre. If you look at the force organization chart, sure it has pictures of some kroot and vespid in there but those teams are just auxilliaries, not members of the fire caste.

If you want a historical perspective; look at the Roman Empire. The Romans employed auxilliaries from many nations but they were never intrinsically part of the military. The marched with the army, fought with the army and even got rich with the army but they were never "Roman" (except for the few that earned citizenship).

Kroot, Vespid and other races are a welcome addition to the greater good but even the codex states that the Tau are "first among equals".

Also, there is no "Fire Caste Military" there is just the combined forces of the Tau which are comprized of ground troops (Fire Caste) air support (Air Caste) and support personel (Water and Earth Caste). I've never heard of a kroot or vespid being called a member of the fire caste (doesn't mean I'm right, I just have never heard of it).

If auxiliaries fall under a Fire caste Command, how are they not part of the Fire caste?

You missed the whole historical analogy.

Ok, closer to home. A UN force goes into X country. An American General my be in charge but that doesn't make the pakistani forces present American, does it?
Another example. In Afghanistan, Afghani army personnel go on joint missions with US soldiers, they are answerable to their chain of command that is working with the US forces.

They are not "part" of the army. The travel with, fight along side, share experiences with the army but they are not part of it. In fact, Kroot are noted to come and go and you'll hardly ever see the same group at the same battle. As far as command goes, Kroot can have their own commanders in the form of Shapers and Vespid have strain leaders. In a real world scenario, they would just be cooperating forces that are informally attached to a cadre....thus the term attache' (sorry too lazy to put the accent in the right spot).

Here's a good read into how I believe the Kroot and Vespid fit within the overal scheme of things:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Auxiliaries_(Roman_military)
Look under the heading "Irregular Allied Forces."

Auxilliaries and aligned forces are different. The best example I can possibly imagine would be the Spartans and the Helots. The spartan army had close to 90,000 Spartans, but only 10,000 had earned citizenship, with the rest being lightly (if at all) armoured helots supporting the men of Sparta.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Melissia wrote:Indeed, Shapers are extremely important to the Kroot, far more than mere squad leaders.

This may be the first time I have EVER agreed with you Melissia, and it is rather odd.

But yes, Shapers are the single most important individual kroot. The welfare of the kinship rests upon their shoulders.

im2randomghgh wrote:Auxilliaries and aligned forces are different. The best example I can possibly imagine would be the Spartans and the Helots. The spartan army had close to 90,000 Spartans, but only 10,000 had earned citizenship, with the rest being lightly (if at all) armoured helots supporting the men of Sparta.

How so? Allied auxilliaries have been mainstays in armies throughout history. Heck, even US pilot-volunteers were flying missions with the RAF before the US entered WW2. Auxilliary attachments usually provide something that is lacking in the main force (kroot stealth, vespid mobility).

If you want more evidence, there was an entire Kroot Mercenaries codex which gives an idea of how completely differen a kroot-only force is compared to a tau-structured cadre.

Not sure the helots are a good example unless you are in the kroot=meatshield camp. Helots were treated poorly and even could be killed at whim by Spartans. There were only a few occurances that any were under arms and earned freedom (note, not citizenship); usually Helots were tied to the land they worked and were poorly trained/suited in a warfare capacity. They weren't treated very well...that's why there were several revolts.

I know a shaper is much more than just a squad leader. My point in mentioning that was to show that if a kindred was actually just a part of an overall Tau army and not an allied contingent then they could just as easily be led by a non-kroot.

Again this is where we all will just have to believe what we want to because there just isn't that much written (at least that I've seen). In IA:3 and other places where there is combat mentioned with Tau and Kroot working together, the kroot just do what they want, much to the horror of the Tau "I wish he'd stop eating that human's head for a minute and listen to me."

This thread is a waste of time.

There is absolutely no way to tell from the fluff what the population of Tau is, or how the castes are divided.

Moving thread to Discussions.

im2randomghgh wrote:
#1, no one is part of the fire cast, some Tau are part of the Fire CASTE though.

#2, Yes, they are part of the Tau military, rather than fighting alongside them. They are 100% integrated into Hunter Cadres (Tau codex pg.22)

#3 actually shapers DO use pulse rifles, Vespid DO have body armour similar to that of the Tau (obviously modded cause of the vastly different anatomies) and basic kroot rifle/vespid neutron is alien technology AUGMENTED by Tau technology (they are both pulse weapons)

Kroot Rifles: "A primitive slug-thrower relying on chemical propellant and the transfer of kinetic energy. The Tau have adapted the weapon to fire a charged pulse round..."-codex Tau Empire.

Vespid Neutron Blaster: "The weapon carried by the stingwings is a HYBRID OF VESPID AND TAU TECHNOLOGY...-codex Tau Empire

This all doesn't change anything. Kroot and Vespid will never be in Tau Fire Caste. Their children will never be trained like the Tau Fire Caste warriors. Because Fire Cast is only in Tau society and they only train Tau.
As on weapons, I remember I also mentioned that Kroot And Vespid would in that case man battle-suits and fight on long range, and also suck in close combat. Because they are only allies, they will never be in Fire Caste, it was design only for Tau. And what are you talking about? When was the last time you saw Kroot in Tau battle armor, from head to the feets. And Vespid to, they may wore some parts, but I never saw Vespid in Fire Warror armor.
One other thing, to let you understand me more clearly. Take for example one Mexican, he want's to join US army, fight for America and spread their influence. Will he be accepted? No, because he is a Mexican. US army only accepts people from US, have it's own training, equipment and strategies. But the Mexican can still join Mexican army.
Now exchange Mexican for Kroot and US army for Tau.
The point of this explanation is to present that Kroot and Vespid and Demiur are not part of the Tau Fire Caste. And that we should be only counting Fire Warriors into this.



Automatically Appended Next Post:

agnosto wrote:
How so? Allied auxilliaries have been mainstays in armies throughout history. Heck, even US pilot-volunteers were flying missions with the RAF before the US entered WW2. Auxilliary attachments usually provide something that is lacking in the main force (kroot stealth, vespid mobility).

Those US pilots didn't fight in the mane of the British Empire or the British Queen. They where only helping the British, but they where bot part of their military - they where allies.

The back of the third edition codex had the approximate numbers of each sept. I don't have the book with me, but I believe it listed the major sept worlds (T'au, Tau'n, Vior'la) as having a population of > one hundred million+ . Whether that means 10 billion is still considered >100M but in the same bracket, I don't know.

If we consider that 100M is a decent sized sept world, and that population is spread equally between the different castes, then we get 25M Tau Fire Caste per significant sept. Not including auxiliaries, or other Castes who help with military effort. Going from this, we get to a number of about 200M.

From what we know of Fire Caste, Tau enter service at about 10 yrs, and have a formal trial-by-fire every 4 years for promotion (informally, a significant campaign can also count as a trial, advancing warriors in less time). IIRC, a Shas'O who survives 2 trials can leave active service and join military council or even retire (anecdote from 3rd Ed codex suggests that Aun'Shi was old and considering retirement at 40).

As others have said though, these are just assumptions heaped on speculation heaped on anecdotes. According to real life populations and military engagements, these numbers are pitifully low - as above, WWII had hundreds of millions of troops. Military figures in 40k fluff are absurdly wrong - each hive city has over a billion people living in it, and tithes a hundred million soldiers per year, yet the number of space marines in the entire galaxy is (around) 1 million? Less than a million IG is considered enough to defend a planet, yet the crew of a single Imperial Navy Cruiser is over 10,000?

At one stage I wrote my own Tau Fluff that introduced new ranks to the Fire Caste (more ranks above shas'o for generals who wouldn't participate on the front lines), each of whom was in command of (on average) 8 Shas of the rank below. For example, a Shas'Ui is in charge of 8 Shas'la. A Shas'vre is in charge of 8 Shas'ui and by extension 64 Shas'la... and so on and so on, such that the '5 star general' equivalent - the highest normal rank - commands approximately 17 Million Shas, which amounts to one PDF for a 2nd phase world.

>mfw I saw the OP's name

im2randomghgh wrote:

Sir Pseudonymous wrote:There are only around seven full sept worlds, which on the outside might approach several billion in population. The rest of the septs would probably be closer to Cadian levels, in the low hundreds of millions on the outside. The remainder are small colonies with populations in the thousands.

However, regardless of the population, fire warriors can't number anywhere near even one billion, as that would mean there would be around five million available for every last colony if only 50% were in combat-ready condition. As they only field them in the low thousands or tens of thousands in major conflicts, this is clearly not the case, as one would expect hundreds of thousands for even minor skirmishes, let alone major engagements.

This means either their population is significantly lower, the fire caste makes up a relatively small percentage of their population, or only a very small percentage of fire caste meet the physical and psychological requirements to enter the military.

23 actually, 23 septs:

T'au
Tau'n
D'yanoi
Bork'an
Dal'yth
Fal'shia
Vior'la
Sa'cea

Au'taal
N'dras
Ke'lshan
Elsy'eir
Tash'var
Vash'ya
T'olku

Ksi'm'yen
Fi'rios
Me'lek
Es'tau
T'ros
Sha'draig
Ka'mais
Ho'sarn

Ya.

Ya.

I know. I win.

"Sept" doesn't mean "fully developed colony", it's more like a regional capital and trade hub, and there are only a handful that can be considered major worlds. Apparently there are population figures for them though, and they're significantly lower than I expected. So there is that.

Anyways, by your logic, every single U.S. soldier currently in the military should be present at each and every engagement "because they have the numbers".

No, it would be more like expecting more than 15 soldiers to be deployed to Afghanistan. Because, you know, that would be the same percentage of the US military forces (counting the Army and Marine Corps) that 9,000 firewarriors would be of the Fire Caste, were so much as 500,000,000 fit for service.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Trasvi wrote:As others have said though, these are just assumptions heaped on speculation heaped on anecdotes. According to real life populations and military engagements, these numbers are pitifully low - as above, WWII had hundreds of millions of troops. Military figures in 40k fluff are absurdly wrong -

It's actually a nice extrapolation of trends towards a smaller, more elite force with a great deal of mobility and support, mixed with a total lack of concern for the lives of any population that violently opposes them and the capability to simply annihilate said opposing population. Not only can a platoon or two of Guard slaughter your ill-armed mob of thousands, they can simply obliterate your entire hometown with orbital warships or artillery emplacements hundreds of miles away, which you can do nothing to retaliate against.

each hive city has over a billion people living in it, and tithes a hundred million soldiers per year, yet the number of space marines in the entire galaxy is (around) 1 million?

Space Marine Chapters aren't Imperial Military, they're rogue states which are tolerated for reasons of tradition. And it's not one hundred million soldiers a year per hive, those are extraordinary figures for Armageddon, which has a population of several hundred billion.

Less than a million IG is considered enough to defend a planet, yet the crew of a single Imperial Navy Cruiser is over 10,000?

A single cruiser could turn a continent into glass in a few weeks of sustained bombardment. It should be noted that an Imperial cruiser is to a modern aircraft carrier what a modern aircraft carrier is to the average car. I can't find anything on their general crew size, which annoys me greatly as I know I've seen or heard rough figures before, but as far as I can remember it's certainly over one thousand. And an Imperial cruiser is hundreds of times that size.


So I think the numbers generally make sense when one thinks about them enough; they're not radically wrong, at least.

My brain hurts from reading so much nonsense.
If you don't care about the Tau background so much as to read just a few pages in the Codex, why bother posting statements like "Kroot are members of the fire caste" or "Vespid are completely integrated with the Tau".

Kilkrazy wrote:This thread is a waste of time.

I agree.

Being new to this argument, I have to ask: why is this a 'hotly debated topic'? I cant even see it a anything worth arguing in the first place....

SickSix wrote:Being new to this argument, I have to ask: why is this a 'hotly debated topic'? I cant even see it a anything worth arguing in the first place....

Anything that deals with the Tau or IG automatically involves both.

Kroothawk wrote:
If you don't care about the Tau background so much as to read just a few pages in the Codex, why bother posting statements like "Kroot are members of the fire caste" or "Vespid are completely integrated with the Tau".

Because the codex states that the Vespid are integrated with the Tau Empire, and in the case of the latter, it can be logically argued that Kroot are part of the Fire caste military.

Here's me thinking we were talking about THE FIRE CASTE, and not the entire Tau military as a whole. The Kroot, and other allied races, whilst part of the Tau Military, are not members of the caste itself.

Brother Coa wrote:

im2randomghgh wrote:
#1, no one is part of the fire cast, some Tau are part of the Fire CASTE though.

#2, Yes, they are part of the Tau military, rather than fighting alongside them. They are 100% integrated into Hunter Cadres (Tau codex pg.22)

#3 actually shapers DO use pulse rifles, Vespid DO have body armour similar to that of the Tau (obviously modded cause of the vastly different anatomies) and basic kroot rifle/vespid neutron is alien technology AUGMENTED by Tau technology (they are both pulse weapons)

Kroot Rifles: "A primitive slug-thrower relying on chemical propellant and the transfer of kinetic energy. The Tau have adapted the weapon to fire a charged pulse round..."-codex Tau Empire.

Vespid Neutron Blaster: "The weapon carried by the stingwings is a HYBRID OF VESPID AND TAU TECHNOLOGY...-codex Tau Empire

This all doesn't change anything. Kroot and Vespid will never be in Tau Fire Caste. Their children will never be trained like the Tau Fire Caste warriors. Because Fire Cast is only in Tau society and they only train Tau.

As on weapons, I remember I also mentioned that Kroot And Vespid would in that case man battle-suits and fight on long range, and also suck in close combat. Because they are only allies, they will never be in Fire Caste, it was design only for Tau. And what are you talking about? When was the last time you saw Kroot in Tau battle armor, from head to the feets. And Vespid to, they may wore some parts, but I never saw Vespid in Fire Warror armor.

One other thing, to let you understand me more clearly. Take for example one Mexican, he want's to join US army, fight for America and spread their influence. Will he be accepted? No, because he is a Mexican. US army only accepts people from US, have it's own training, equipment and strategies. But the Mexican can still join Mexican army.

Now exchange Mexican for Kroot and US army for Tau.
The point of this explanation is to present that Kroot and Vespid and Demiur are not part of the Tau Fire Caste. And that we should be only counting Fire Warriors into this.


.

Bolded the stupid(est) part. Mexican to kroot isn't a comparison. Unless Mexico became a protectorate of the US while I wasn't looking, it doesn't apply.

I'd respond to the rest but it's lunch time.

Adieu.

Nerivant wrote:Because the codex states that the Vespid are integrated with the Tau Empire, and in the case of the latter, it can be logically argued that Kroot are part of the Fire caste military.

Vespids are integrated into the Tau Empire, not the Tau race.
Kroot are more or less integrated into the Tau Empire, not a single caste of the Tau race.
Just because a Tau general leads a coalition force, doesn't change the race of Kroot and Vespids.

Trasvi wrote:The back of the third edition codex had the approximate numbers of each sept. I don't have the book with me, but I believe it listed the major sept worlds

Its not specifically sept worlds but septs of expansion phases ( 1st and 2nd. 3rd happens in the following codex ).
From that page in codex Tau:
- colony of 1st phase = 100.000 +
- colony of 2nd phase = 10-10.000

Not that densly populated it seems.

Trasvi wrote:
If we consider that 100M is a decent sized sept world, and that population is spread equally between the different castes, then we get 25M Tau Fire Caste per significant sept. Not including auxiliaries, or other Castes who help with military effort. Going from this, we get to a number of about 200M.

And if we consider that last page of the first Tau codex, a 100.000+x per colony may be what the 2nd phase colonys are now.
Still a ratio of 1:10 of new to established colony.
Why do we consider millions again?

Trasvi wrote:
WWII had hundreds of millions of troops.

No.
3rd reich for example ~ 9.000.000 over the whole WWII. Either the allies outnumbered them 100:1 or there is nothing to suggest
hundreds of millions.

Trasvi wrote:
Military figures in 40k fluff are absurdly wrong

iproxtaco wrote:
Here's me thinking we were talking about THE FIRE CASTE, and not the entire Tau military as a whole. The Kroot, and other allied races, whilst part of the Tau Military, are not members of the caste itself.

Exactly. Fire caste. Tau who are born into a caste. Not any other xenos who is part or attached to the Tau empire's military.

im2randomghgh wrote:

Brother Coa wrote:

im2randomghgh wrote:
#1, no one is part of the fire cast, some Tau are part of the Fire CASTE though.

#2, Yes, they are part of the Tau military, rather than fighting alongside them. They are 100% integrated into Hunter Cadres (Tau codex pg.22)

#3 actually shapers DO use pulse rifles, Vespid DO have body armour similar to that of the Tau (obviously modded cause of the vastly different anatomies) and basic kroot rifle/vespid neutron is alien technology AUGMENTED by Tau technology (they are both pulse weapons)

Kroot Rifles: "A primitive slug-thrower relying on chemical propellant and the transfer of kinetic energy. The Tau have adapted the weapon to fire a charged pulse round..."-codex Tau Empire.

Vespid Neutron Blaster: "The weapon carried by the stingwings is a HYBRID OF VESPID AND TAU TECHNOLOGY...-codex Tau Empire

This all doesn't change anything. Kroot and Vespid will never be in Tau Fire Caste. Their children will never be trained like the Tau Fire Caste warriors. Because Fire Cast is only in Tau society and they only train Tau.

As on weapons, I remember I also mentioned that Kroot And Vespid would in that case man battle-suits and fight on long range, and also suck in close combat. Because they are only allies, they will never be in Fire Caste, it was design only for Tau. And what are you talking about? When was the last time you saw Kroot in Tau battle armor, from head to the feets. And Vespid to, they may wore some parts, but I never saw Vespid in Fire Warror armor.

One other thing, to let you understand me more clearly. Take for example one Mexican, he want's to join US army, fight for America and spread their influence. Will he be accepted? No, because he is a Mexican. US army only accepts people from US, have it's own training, equipment and strategies. But the Mexican can still join Mexican army.

Now exchange Mexican for Kroot and US army for Tau.
The point of this explanation is to present that Kroot and Vespid and Demiur are not part of the Tau Fire Caste. And that we should be only counting Fire Warriors into this.


.

Bolded the stupid(est) part. Mexican to kroot isn't a comparison. Unless Mexico became a protectorate of the US while I wasn't looking, it doesn't apply.

I'd respond to the rest but it's lunch time.

Adieu.

You still don't get it?

Kroot are not Tau. they cannot be Fire Warriors. And you are counting them as Fire Warriors, Vespid to.
Who is now stupid?

1hadhq wrote:

Its not specifically sept worlds but septs of expansion phases ( 1st and 2nd. 3rd happens in the following codex ).
From that page in codex Tau:
- colony of 1st phase = 100.000 +
- colony of 2nd phase = 10-10.000

Exactly. It says COLONY, not sept...

Brother Coa wrote:

You still don't get it?

Kroot are not Tau. they cannot be Fire Warriors. And you are counting them as Fire Warriors, Vespid to.
Who is now stupid?

Who is saying that auxiliaries are Fire Warriors?

Nerivant wrote:

Brother Coa wrote:

You still don't get it?

Kroot are not Tau. they cannot be Fire Warriors. And you are counting them as Fire Warriors, Vespid to.
Who is now stupid?

Who is saying that auxiliaries are Fire Warriors?

Not Fire warriors, although you and several others were talking about auxiliaries when they have no relevance when trying to discern a figure for a population they aren't a part of. Coa has his facts wrong again.

Nerivant wrote:

Brother Coa wrote:

You still don't get it?

Kroot are not Tau. they cannot be Fire Warriors. And you are counting them as Fire Warriors, Vespid to.
Who is now stupid?

Who is saying that auxiliaries are Fire Warriors?

You count them as such, said that they where the part of Tau fir Cast. And only Fire Warriors are part of the Fire Cast.
Kroot and Vespid are part of Tau Empire military force, not society Tau Fire Cast.

Brother Coa wrote:

Nerivant wrote:

Brother Coa wrote:

You still don't get it?

Kroot are not Tau. they cannot be Fire Warriors. And you are counting them as Fire Warriors, Vespid to.
Who is now stupid?

Who is saying that auxiliaries are Fire Warriors?

You count them as such, said that they where the part of Tau fir Cast. And only Fire Warriors are part of the Fire Cast.

No, I never said that.

And there are Tau other than Fire Warriors in the Fire caste.

Brother Coa wrote:

Nerivant wrote:

Brother Coa wrote:

You still don't get it?

Kroot are not Tau. they cannot be Fire Warriors. And you are counting them as Fire Warriors, Vespid to.
Who is now stupid?

Who is saying that auxiliaries are Fire Warriors?

You count them as such, said that they where the part of Tau fir Cast. And only Fire Warriors are part of the Fire Cast.
Kroot and Vespid are part of Tau Empire military force, not society Tau Fire Cast.

No, he never has 'counted them as Fire Warriors'. Read back through the thread before jumping out at people.

I never said that he counted them, others where.

I think that the question is do we count Kroot and Vespid into Fire Cast numbers?

Brother Coa wrote:I never said that he counted them, others where.

I think that the question is do we count Kroot and Vespid into Fire Cast numbers?

Which is what we're debating now.

Reading page 22 of the Tau codex gives me reason to believe that auxiliaries are counted as part of the Fire caste.

Brother Coa wrote:I never said that he counted them, others where.

I think that the question is do we count Kroot and Vespid into Fire Cast numbers?

What the feth Coa? You absolutely did say that!

Brother Coa wrote:You count them as such

That's in rely to Nerivant!
To answer your question though, no we don't, as they are not members of The Tau Fire Caste subspecies. They are auxiliaries in the general Tau military.

And that's what bug's me.

Tau Fire Cast is part of Tau society, only Tau are made Fire Wariiors and only Tau are part of the Fire Caste.
But no matter that, we are counting Tau allies as part of the Fire Caste to?

I am confused...

Some people are apparently, when they shouldn't be. Nothing indicates that they are part of The Fire Caste.

iproxtaco wrote:Some people are apparently, when they shouldn't be. Nothing indicates that they are part of The Fire Caste.

Except for the fact that they are considered part of a Command, which consists of all members of a given caste in a location.

Nerivant wrote:


Reading page 22 of the Tau codex gives me reason to believe that auxiliaries are counted as part of the Fire caste.

Missing to provide a quote gives me reason to doubt your beliefs.

You know, auxillaries like kroot are attached to the Tau's general organizational form on this page.
Attached troops of the 3rd line won't be adopted as Tau won't they?
Without a status as a Tau, how are they part of a caste?

Nerivant wrote:

iproxtaco wrote:Some people are apparently, when they shouldn't be. Nothing indicates that they are part of The Fire Caste.

Except for the fact that they are considered part of a Command, which consists of all members of a given caste in a location.

And auxiliary troops.

Some of you guys need to study set theory.

Codex "Tau Empire" page 22 (retranslated from German) wrote:Auxiliary troops like Kroot hunter kindreds can be attached for tactical reasons and will be assigned by higher levels of command (e.g. sector command) .

Page 22 obviously features armies consisting mostly of Tau, with a few auxiliary troops attached, an army as described by the rules.
Does that make Kroot or Vespids change their race? No.
Do Kroot or Vespids now have to marry within the Tau Fire caste? No.
Are Kroot, vespids and other non-Tau races relevant for counting members of the Tau Fire caste? No.

So if you are discussing Kroot and Vespids in this thread, you obviously have no idea what the Fire caste is and are spamming this thread with off topic nonsense.

Codex "Tau Empire" page 8 (retranslated from German) wrote:Fire - The Fire caste consists of the Tau warriors.

I think some people need to re-read the codex. Kroot are attached to hunter cadres from a level of command that integrates all castes. (i can't recall exact name). Kroot are not in the fire caste, and the fire caste=/= the tau military!

That's spot on Kroothawk, have it right in front of me. Well done, those who cited the Command evidence, you didn't read past that.

iproxtaco wrote:Here's me thinking we were talking about THE FIRE CASTE, and not the entire Tau military as a whole. The Kroot, and other allied races, whilst part of the Tau Military, are not members of the caste itself.

True!. If we were talking about the Tau Military we'd have to take large parts of the Air Caste into account as well... and remember that other castes might also get involved in the war effort at some points.

Also, part of the problem is that we don't know exactly what the Fire Caste does. We know they are "warriors", we know they do fight... but there's more to war than just combat.

Take Intelligence, for example. The Fire Caste has scouts and stealth teams, but doesn't have access to recon air/spacecraft of their own. Also, Water Caste diplomats and journeymen can provide valuable intel on enemy military setups and deployments, yet it feels strange that such tasks are trusted to Tau citizens who, being outside the Fire Caste, probably lack insight on military affairs.

On the opposite, it'd make sense that military research was carried out by Fire Caste scientists... but on checking Forgeworld's entry on the Custodian-class battleship one learns that it was designed... by the Earth Caste!. If they developed the Air Caste's most powerful warship, does this mean the Hammerheads, Pirahnas, Drones, et al are also Earth Caste designs?

The workings of the Tau Caste system are sketchy at best. Strange for a race that seems designed to appeal to those who like their sci-fi a bit more scientific than fictional... GW certainly needs to flesh this out on future 'dexes.

Nerivant wrote:

Brother Coa wrote:

Nerivant wrote:

Brother Coa wrote:

You still don't get it?

Kroot are not Tau. they cannot be Fire Warriors. And you are counting them as Fire Warriors, Vespid to.
Who is now stupid?

Who is saying that auxiliaries are Fire Warriors?

You count them as such, said that they where the part of Tau fir Cast. And only Fire Warriors are part of the Fire Cast.

No, I never said that.

And there are Tau other than Fire Warriors in the Fire caste.

The only non-FW is the FC are the council, the trainers and the retired. Battlefield technician/support staff roles would be filled by EC/Drones.