Disclaimer: Please keep the thread free of the general flames and arguments. This thread is about Gandalf's trip to the beach and what the material can stand up to. If you would like to contribute or help focus this scenario, please contribute. If you want to crit everyone for 1000 hp with a wall of txt ranting/defending GW, make your own thread.

So I took a trip to the GW Bowie Bunker in MD today to pick myself up a Finecast Gandalf. Basically there have been a lot of myths out there and lots of 'unknowns' like paint stripping so I am willing to give it a test and see what happens.

The original Gandalf Experiment
Here is the original blog which reported the 'melting gandalf' which started close to 90% of the talk on the net, very snopes-worthy:
http://thefrontlinegamer.blogspot.com/2011/06/dont-leave-finecast-in-sun.html

A fun quote:

I can not believe that this weekend somebody actually tried to argue with me that my Ganfdalf turned into a puddle of goo!!! The genius didn't even backdown when I told him it was actually my Ganfdalf.

So the original Gandalf may not have melted as some are reporting, but we are going to still see what happens with a sturdy good Gandalf! Game on!

Buying the Finecast:

The first issue out there is the high number of 'flaws' people are reporting. I decided to walk in and buy the first one on the peg. Fortunately there was only one Gandalf. The GW bunker had pretty much the full Finecast line. I decided to check out all the Ork and Orc/gobbo blisters because they would be models I am familiar with and I could see flaws easier. I was surprised to see that they were consistently quality and no where near the average of what I see on the internet.

So I asked the manager who was working "what's the deal with your finecast line?" And basically this is what he told me:

*Batch 0 was 'hurried', less QC and done by anyone available, not the regular experienced pourers. This was a bad decision by GW but they wanted a massive product push with deep inventory shipping.
*The GW Bowie Bunker follows the following policy:
-Every blister is inspected before put on the peg. *ANY* visible flaws or missing details are immediately sent back to GW.
-When people check out, they inform the customer to inspect the blister and recommend opening the box/blister before checkout. If damaged they find another blister/box and will open as many boxes/blisters needed to create a full unflawed model.
-If it is a gift, and they do not wish to open, they visually inspect and will take back flawed models without question.

I have to say from what I saw, this location was practicing what they preached and said batch 3 and on they have had much much much less flaws and issues. He didn't deny they existed, but was pretty honest about why they seemed to have a large number of flaws. If you don't know how to pour resin and cut back QC then yeah, it will be crap. It does sound like it isn't the material or the casting process but more the lack of QC and inexperienced casters. Not a valid excuse, but it does mean if GW corrects the actions the product will increase in quality.

If GW stores are actually treating flaws like this, then they would save money with good QC moving forward... This does seem to give hope that they have heard feedback and are stepping up QC and down the road it will be 'better'. Only time will tell but I will say if there is a finecast model I want, I will buy it from this particular store. I feel confident in the ability to get a flawless finecast model from them if I desire.

So after checking out my Gandalf, and seeing no visible flaws or issues, I packed him up and took him home.

Photos:







Notes:

Bubbles. A small one underneath horse Gandalf's foot. One on the handle of Horse Gandalf's sword. Other than that, visibly fine! Assembled, there are some parts which I would have to greenstuff to cover up the seams, but that is a sculpt issue, not a material issue.

I was surprised on how small the parts were, being an Ork player, I am used to much larger weapons and thicker objects and oversized parts. The staff kinda freaked me out!!! less than 1mm thick!

Finecast has give to it... The closest thing I can compare it to in plastic, is the bosspole from the plastic nob kit. That bit is too small for me as a modeler and I replaced it with paperclip for sturdiness, so this will be interesting to see how a finecast really thin staff holds up to things. Like GW plastic and PVC plastic rod, I CAN BEND IT if I apply pressure. I can bend metal too, I don't think anyone thinks this material is going to be as strong as steel. I am interested in what it takes to heat it to a point where it can be repositioned physically or droops due to gravity and if this happens at reasonable temps or if it requires extraordinary effort to cause it to bend. So when attempting to bend parts, it will go in order of thickness:

*staff
*sword
*horsey leg
*finecast sprue

The experiment:

The two major things I want to see is how badly this material warps compared to plastic and how it handles paint stripping compared to plastic. Lots of assertions have been put out there and since for me personally, I want to know the limits of finecast for my own use. I know some people will be unwilling to accept Finecast if it can't withstand an open flame and some will accept it if it melts to a puddle at room temperature. I am not trying to define what is 'acceptable' as everyone has their own standards... I am only trying to find out the limits.

Here is what I am going to do:

*Foot Gandalf will sit on my car's dashboard (Black 2008 Prius with no tint and a big sunny dashboard)
*Horse Gandalf will go in a Games Workshop model case smooshed between foam. This case will go in the trunk of my car.
*I will drive my car to the beach (Ocean City Maryland) where it will be in the sun for about 5 days. (Predicted to average around 86 degrees, so this would be low summer heat IMHO)

When it is done, I will see what they look like. Will they droop? Will they warp? Will they be smooshed in the figure case? Will they stay straight? Who knows?

Depending on the results, I will attempt to recreate the situation on hotter days as well as other scenarios like 'Room temp indoors on a window sill' and 'under tap water heat'.

Happy 4th of July everyone! Or Happy Monday and regular weekend for you international folks!

Good luck! If I didn't have to drop tons of money on school and my car right now, I would buy a blister just to throw in an oven at work. And maybe test stuff like the hardness.

Has anyone ever thought of using the excess sprue material rather than giving GW your money in order to show everyone they have a faulty product?

Absolutionis wrote:Has anyone ever thought of using the excess sprue material rather than giving GW your money in order to show everyone they have a faulty product?

It's more fun to have a melted Gandalf than it is to have melted sprue.

Plus he can just return it and say it melted if there's an issue

Last night, in a heated thread, I popped a Liche Priest in an equally heated Overn...266F.

And do you know what happened?


Now. Nada. Zilch. Well, the plastic base went all wonky, but the Liche Priest is fine.

That's right, Finecast survives tempratures inimical to human life.

Absolutionis wrote:Has anyone ever thought of using the excess sprue material rather than giving GW your money in order to show everyone they have a faulty product?

Sprue is a lot thicker than most model parts, meaning it would likely survive temperatures that thinner components may not.

It's also the problem that sprue doesn't maintain the same internal stress as say a rearing horse. It's that stress (gravity acting on the horses body, only supported by the thin back legs) that causes the sagging. Heat just softens the material to let that happen faster. Resin will naturally sag over a long period of time.

Interesting experiment, i look foward to seeing the results.

Life's a beach, and then you fry.

Happy for your poor Liche King Mr M, you rotter mistreating him like that in the name of science.
I rather suspect that as was said elsewhere that the resin batches have been inconsitent in the mixing.

So all should be well once they repair the damaged moulds.

If the resin won't soften in a hot oven how are people to reverse warpages on the components?

Chibi Bodge-Battle wrote:Life's a beach, and then you fry.

Gandalf wrote:Fry you fools!

Okay maybe I got that one wrong....

Gandalf should at least have been given a knotted hankie made out of GS

Kilkrazy wrote:If the resin won't soften in a hot oven how are people to reverse warpages on the components?

I think the original contention was that Finecast will "melt" in high temperatures. I can't imagine that being true. My guess is it will soften some.

Are you going to include a plastic model as well, for comparison?

Aye, but when exposed to very high temperatures apparently it doesn't do a lot. My limited understanding of plastics chemistry doesn't tell me why that might be.

$33?!?!?!?!?!????? Holy feth, thats crazy. I dont normally complain about GW prices, but wow.

HAHA for the partworks Gandalf on Shadowfax for a fiver!

oh and welcome to our world Madfer!

Some quick notes:

*Finecast Sprues are thick. REALLY thick. Shadowfax's legs and Gandalfs sword/staff are waaaaaaaay thinner and more realistic of true models than sprue. I can almost guarantee I could leave a sprue in direct heat and it wouldn't droop under gravity the way parts on real models will. The original Gandalf actually collapsed under his own weight. If heat can reduce the model to that level, then the sword, the staff and even the horse should 'droop' through being exposed to heat... not heat AND pressure.

*I plan on using the sprues for the first round of simple green paint removal.

*Personally, I see a distinction between heating resin to bend back into shape, and something getting so soft it melts under its own weight. I know other plastics and resins CAN be heated to temperatures where I can bend it and if hot enough will go friggin warp with no external force. What I want to know is will Finecast do this under exposure to reasonable temps like in my car (140 degrees and under) or does it need deliberate heat exposure and pressure? (150-200)

*I will build a plastic model out of bitz that has similar parts and thicknesses. I will also include some PVC plasticrod parts. I think the Nob Bosspole is the bit I will use for droop factor to compare to the staff.

Good experiment. Looking forward to the results, no matter what the outcome is.

My feeling is the plastic will be fine but the superglue might crack, and the Finecast will sag\droop slightly but won't melt or distort in a significant way. But, we'll see!

Mr Mystery wrote:Last night, I popped a Liche Priest in a heated thread

If it can withstand the heat of a Dakkadebate it can withstand anything!

Meet Barry the ork! He thinks he is cool like Gandalf!

Barry is GW plastic, LIGHT GREY about 6 years old?

He is holding a PVC plastic rod the same length and diameter of Gandalf's staff

He is also holding new GW plastic (dark grey) in a bit as close to the thickness as I could find. It is a bosspole from the NOBZ boxed set. Not perfect, but the best I could do. I don't think GW plastic makes parts any thinner than this, I checked some wires on the Deffdred sprue and this is as thin as it gets. So this is the best comparison I could do.



So that is two other common modeling materials for comparison in any tests run.

TEST 1: Sunny day!

So I woke up to see a super sunny day and 80+ degrees at 8am. So I threw our 3 heroes into the 'test scenario' as a pre-beach experiment. You can see how they are sitting. I will go out around 1pm so that will be 4 solid hours in the heat. We will see what the outside temp is around 1pm and I will take photos!

Not perfect, but a good preliminary test. If it melts here, then we got trubbas! But it is a nice pre-beach experiment.

Watching this with interest.

I really like what you're doing here nkelsch. I look forward to seeing your results.

nkelsch, you get a very big from me for performing this test. Seems very objective, has pics, and I love the added humor in the post. I am really looking forward to the end results, whatever they may be.

Mad4Minis wrote:$33?!?!?!?!?!????? Holy feth, thats crazy. I dont normally complain about GW prices, but wow.

I started reading this thread with a real interest in seeing how the resin would hold up. As soon as I saw the price tag on the blister, all I could think about was the price. One mounted Gandalf and one on foot for $33?

Price aside, this has been an informative and entertaining thread.

You should try it in Vegas, it was 107 yesterday. It gets hot enough in cars to make lighters blow up among other crazy things. It still take direct sunlight to cause any damage to miniatures though.

I was thinking of doing something similar, but I'm in England and the weather's unpredictable at best - I was going to do a test along the lines of 'What happens to a Finecast mini if you accidentally drop it into your cup of tea' etc. I'd like to see a proper scientific test but am watching yours with interest, a big from me.

When you get to the beach, if it still hasn't turned to gloop, try burying it in the sand

My prediction is for the Finecast to be ok (if it starts melting or Gandalf's staff goes all floppy then there's no hope and Finecast will need medication for premature disintegration ), but if you go to move it or put any kind of pressure on it it will bend a lot easier than normal. It'll be interesting to see at what temp they do start to have problems. I think the Orc and other materials will be fine.

Then there's the final question...will it blend?

BladeWalker wrote:You should try it in Vegas, it was 107 yesterday. It gets hot enough in cars to make lighters blow up among other crazy things. It still take direct sunlight to cause any damage to miniatures though.

I would like to try this with all temps... Then people can decide their own risk and impact for their region. If we have issues in my more 'mild' summer temps then that shows harsher temps will have more issues. If my results show nothing, I can keep trying to expose to hotter and hotter days.

Disclaimer....the Liche Priest was predictably wibbly when he came out the Oven last night, decidedly more pliable than when not lightly baked.

Flicked the top of the staff, and there was definite flex, but it went back up (ooooer!). Minute or so later, it had cool down nicely. And he's now absolutely fine(cast)!

You know, I made up my mind this morning to not post in another finecast thread for the sake of my sanity.

This one looks fun though, so I've just ordered a straitjacket.

Yeah, I've been a bit apprehensive about trying any Finecast, and not just for the price. Gonna keep an eye on this test.

Looking forward to seeing the results, the only thing I'd say is:

Are your windows cracked? If not, the interior of your car is liable to be much hotter than 86, (though under 140 as you mentioned) and it'd be nice to just have a feel for "how hot it got". Maybe leaving a thermometer in the car (or two, one in the shade, one next to the models) that you could check after say, 2 hours, then again right before you open the car?

Here's to hoping you don't come back to a misshapen blob!

Mad4Minis wrote:$33?!?!?!?!?!????? Holy feth, thats crazy. I dont normally complain about GW prices, but wow.

Thats what i thought too! Why would anyone pay that much for a LOTR mini all choices...

Windows not cracked. So it is as oven-like as it can get. I don't have a thermometer but I do have my car's external temp as a guide.

RESULTS TIME:

So after 4 hours, it is 91 degrees out. This is a pretty average car temp.


No visible change or drooping really. Nothing unreasonable so far. The original melting gandalf had his horse collapse under him in room temperature by sitting in the sun on a window sill. I would say my car is hotter than the inside of anyone's house and anyone's window sill. I would say there would have to be some major flaws for shadowfax to collapse from just heat and gravity.

So I decided to 'poke' the models to see how flimsey they are.

Plastic = Rock hard
PVC white plastirod = bendable, but pretty ridgid, softer than GW plastic
Finecast = wwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwoooooooooooooah! Not quite spagetti but more like a copper wire. It bends... well... Picture time:


That is gravity of the model and me picking up by the staff. Yup, it is soft. Immediately after putting it back down, within 5 seconds it slowly returned to its original shape. I suspect that unless COOLED in the new position (and even if cooled) it has memory and will return to shape.

Gandalf's sword was much more rigid and did not bend nearly as much. I would say it is twice the thickness.

The next test I did was push down on Shadowfax's head to see how much 'give' the legs had. He is basically a tripod of 2 legs and a tail. By applying substantial pressure I was able to make the whole model 'bend' down. Much more pressure than the staff. Letting go and he went back to his regular shape immediately.

Analysis:
*The model will not collapse onto itself under regular gravity and heat so far.
*SMALL PARTS become really soft in a 90 degree car!!! Thicker parts become less soft. There seems to be some 'memory' which models return to when cooled.

Not sure how I feel yet. I don't have any models this thin. Thicker parts like ork weapons are not going to easily warp in my 91 degree car. The next step will be packing all 3 models in a figure case and letting them sit with foam pushing on the parts of the model. The way to BEND resin is to hold it firm until it 'cools' to get the new shape. So foam should accomplish that if it is an issue.

I am going to bring them in for now and let them return to room temp before I do the figure case test.

(I will recreate this all at the beach with hopefully hotter temps, but this is a low-end baseline)






Automatically Appended Next Post:

fire4effekt wrote:

Mad4Minis wrote:$33?!?!?!?!?!????? Holy feth, thats crazy. I dont normally complain about GW prices, but wow.

Thats what i thought too! Why would anyone pay that much for a LOTR mini all choices...

Because the original model which melted to a puddle of goo at room temp was a Gandalf... It is part of the bit!

Very interesting.

When the experiment is concluded, I'd recommend that you turn your posts into an article, for posterity.

Uh how dare you actually use empirical evidence instead of knee jerk "observations" and hearsay

You apologist!@%$@#

/sarcasm

(Btw this isnt defending the high price point + miscasts, but merely the absurdity that is people claiming models melt in average temperatures and having no real evidence. It's also easier to flame me In Pms since I tend not to check threads once all of relevance has been said)

If it's 90 outside and the car is closed, you're probably looking at 100+ degrees in there, so they are appearing to be fairly sturdy thus far.

I think one key thing to consider, since not everyone has resin casted, is that sometimes you get less than optimal "mixes" (of 2 part resins, i dont know the nature of what GW uses), which could cause some differences in properties.

I say this as a "that other guys windowsill experiment could still be fer real" note, he may have just had a bad batch.

This is SCIENCE!

Excited for the end result.

Prius!?! They will melt from shame!!!

j/k

targetawg wrote:

I say this as a "that other guys windowsill experiment could still be fer real" note, he may have just had a bad batch.

I think his Gandalf did collapse... But even he admits that it didn't prove the firestorm 'finecast melts to puddles' that people were attributing.

Honestly, anything that is BATCH 0, anything could happen from bubbles, hollow legs, bad mix of resin... who knows. Those people had valid observations of their product.

I this is a BATCH 3 Gandalf and reasonably representative of what GW claims a fully functional Finecast model should be. Not saying there are not flaws, but if you get a good one, this is close to what you should expect in regards to heat issues

And I need to drive a Prius to save money on gas to pay for my wargaming budget.

I like this. I'm interested to see what could happen to the models when placed in foam.

Bravo, sir, for science!

It's funny (and a bit annoying) that the resin returns to its original shape when it cools. I have tried straightening a slight bend in a sword using hot water, but it has now bent back again.

Is more severe treatment required?

Nay.

You bend it using hot water, then dip it in cold quickly so it can't bend back.

Flashman wrote:It's funny (and a bit annoying) that the resin returns to its original shape when it cools. I have tried straightening a slight bend in a sword using hot water, but it has now bent back again.

Is more severe treatment required?

Other resin/plastics, it usually take extreme heat then quick cooling. I do it all the time with PVC. I usually boil it like spaghetti then position while holding it in an open freezer.

While returning to shape is good for potential unwanted bends... it is bad for people correcting a bend!

Interesting. What I would be curious to know at this point, and is probably the subject of a completely different experiment with different controls, is how well the hypothetical paint job on said staff would hold up under flux like that.

@ Kan & nkelsch

Ta very muchly. I will give that a go

Excellent posting! Thanks for doing it, was interesting to see the preliminary results.

I was actually the most shocked by the price sticker for a Gandalf.

I don't think Gandalf is worth $33 regardless of the outcome, that's absurd.

I find the flexibility of the resin under heat unsurprising. My experience has been the 'grain' always wins after heating and bending and cooling etc.

At any rate for the price point being asked, I don't think one should be obligated to fix such flaws.

Finally, I KNOW when you bend a metal model it stays and I KNOW you don't have to heat it up, and I KNOW what would have happened in this experiment from the beginning with a metal example. It would be fine.

I appreciate someone taking the hit and doing some proper testing on heat durability and paint stripping on the new resins. Kudos!

I applied a few coats of paint to a sprue and let it dry before putting it into some Fairy Power Spray - although it was weeks old and more like a gloop at this stage. The paint came off fine, left a darkened mark where the undercoat had been but was weaker - I'll try it with new Power Spray to see what happens but I can see it being a pain to scrub off a fully painted/assembled mini, escpecially if the finecast is weakened.

infinite_array wrote:I like this. I'm interested to see what could happen to the models when placed in foam.

Bravo, sir, for science!

GLADos would be so proud! this is a cool thread though! also, was that straight jacket GW official, if not...shame on you .
lol


Automatically Appended Next Post:
the jacket comment is referencing flashman's earlier comment...

So they sat in the car for the rest of the day, got around to 94 degrees outside. No visible warping due to heat. I could wiggle stuff around and I pushed it in far directions and it would return to normal position.

I brought them in, and let them return to room temp.

Now for test 2:

When stuffed in a mini case, and left in my trunk, will they warp by being held in pressure conditions?

I need feedback... We all agree that there are irresponsible ways of transporting minis, and while I don't expect people to have foam-cut exact holes for the model, I also don't expect it is reasonable to stuff a mini in a hole that is too small and put too much pressure that would bend a metal model. I am trying to recreate an average REASONABLE transport. Not someone transporting Golden Demon models in 400$ cases and not a 12 year old with a shoebox.

Here is my scenario, please provide feedback before I kick it off if you have any:

*GW black case.
*Basic GW foam with GW hole slots.
*Foot gandalf will go in a regular hole, obviously his staff will overflow.
*Horse gandalf will go in a larger area with the expectation of being smooshed into place on a 25mm foam tray. This means there will be pressure. This is a reasonable transport with models I would do with metal and plastic.



Does this seem reasonable? Am I being too irresponsible? Am I being too safe to get results? If the packing in the case is questionable, then the results mean nothing. This is the BARE MINIMAL transport conditions that I would consider before I would start blaming the transportation, not the model. The pressure should distort the horses legs if they are capable of being distored. That is something I would not expect from a plastic model.

I am moving forward with this test for the next few days until we refine it. I will try other things as well. I would like to get a good testplan by the weekend for extended exposure.

Note: I also am going to try this once models are painted. I want to see how wigglying and softness happens under paint and if it damages paint. That will be round 2!

I like your thought process. Yes, that looks perfectly reasonable (looks like my mini case).

I would be careful about manipulating the mini's too much once your main experiment starts, you might weaken the integrity of the parts and artificially bias your experiment towards mini failure.

Good luck! Anxiously looking forward to seeing how things progress.

Cool experiment, I await your results

(My prediction: Gandalf in trunk makes it through "shadow and flame" just fine... while the one on the dash gets a bit bent out of shape)

Edit: Oh, wait, looks like you already tried it out in the car for a day? From your OP I thought you were going to leave it at OC for 5 days...

RiTides wrote:

Edit: Oh, wait, looks like you already tried it out in the car for a day? From your OP I thought you were going to leave it at OC for 5 days...

I am, but today was a sunny hot day... too good not to pre-test.

The OC test will happen this weekend once the scenarios are defined. Probably foot gandalf on the dash, horse gandalf in the case (because he has more pressure points)

I figure if it failed in pre-test for short heat and 90 degree days, then it will super fail the beach test

The foam looks good to me. Hoping your foam tests are as possessive as your dash test so far. I'd really like to get some of the finecast but have been uncertain over the heat issues so I'm quite thankful of your testing this out for us.

Hey, I'm going to be down in Bethany Beach this weekend. We should get a game in!!!!

Great experiment. Done objectivly and without alot of BS factoring into the conversation.

When you leave him in the car, leave a thermometer in there in the case, and in the car.


Really good job your doing there. way to go.

Great thread. Good to see a logical approach to testing out this issue (and having given you a compliment, I CERTAINLY don't need to resort to snarky comments about any other poster, right? <right --Janthkin>).

Initial evidence when Finecast was first released suggested that finecast had issues with melting at lower temperatures than other minis. I think this test will shed some further light on whether this was solely an issue with batch 0 or if it is still present with other batches. Pending on the results of the beach test, if I were to offer a hypothesis I’d say the uber melting was as a result of batch 0 (which shouldn’t have been released to the public IMO). That being said, with bubbling still present on batch 3 minis, Finecast should still be avoided IMO.

Personally I’d like to see a comparative test with a batch 0 Finecast mini versus other batches (and maybe a resin product from another company as well).

Augustus wrote:I don't think Gandalf is worth $33 regardless of the outcome, that's absurd.

You've clearly not seen how obscenely good value for points Gandalf the Grey is in WOTR

(watching the tests with interest. I've an awful lot of figures to buy in time for Games Day this year, some of which are available as Finecast: I'd like to know in advance if I'll want to hunt down the old metals instead)

Will be following this thread with great interest.

I'm the author of the actual original blog. I'm actually looking forward to seeing what happens as well. I've left my Dwarf Gyrocopter in the loft room, out of the sunlight to see what happens, remembering this is a day 1 purchase as well and there has been some slight warp on the blades... no I'm not putting pictures up, not after last time. lol. However its no where near as bad as my Gandalf was. As I've said this leads me to believe my Gandalf was highly faulty and should never have been allowed near the shelves. I've had people in the industry contact me and explain or try to explain what they think is going on. I've been told finecast is a polyutherane with a synthetic rubber on more than one occasion by different people and that would explain the lower temps the stuff requires to become malleable (not melting) and also the memory the substance seems to have. I took the original blog down due to threats and just outright mis-information that was attributed to me. I never posted a picture of my Gandalf in a puddle of goo as people seemed to be claiming I put it out there because regardless of whether or not the miniature was faulty I found the incident unacceptable regardless, especially in light of the price. I have to say though GW fanboi's have hammered the final nail in the GW gaming coffin for me because the response of some to the issues with Finecast and anyone who doesn't like the stuff is farcical. Just for clarity I supported the GWs switch to resin:

http://thefrontlinegamer.blogspot.com/2011/05/fine-cast-or-to-rest-of-world-resin.html

The above article was written before the 'Gandalf incident' and hopefully shows I didn't have an agenda to rip on the stuff. I'm a huge fan of resin models as a painter.

Its good to see that people are being scientific about this rather than just making snap judgements.

Particularly interested in the results of the paint stripping experiments when they come.

I took the original blog down due to threats...

Are you serious?

@nkelsch

While it is good to add an ork as a 'control' for the experiment in order to be fair to GW could you add a resin miniature from another manufacturer aswell.
While the current results are alarming have we any reason to claim the new PP plastic Sorscha or Denny would fare any better.
Maybe just maybe we are being unfair to GW over finecasts heat resistance, I wonder if PP plastic resin is superior or just that no-one was motivated to test it in the same fashion.

warspawned wrote:

I took the original blog down due to threats...

Are you serious?

Yes I'm serious. I knew I'd get some flack and name calling etc. but I also had what I'd consider three quite serious threats against me. I have no doubt they were probably just internet warriors but nevertheless having threats made against your life because of a Blog is a bit extreme if you ask me. So I took it down partly due to that but also because at the Games Expo in Birmingham I had somebody argue with me that my Gandalf had melted into a pool of goo and he knew it had happened and was convinced of that fact even when I told him it was my blog and my Gandalf. I'd also seen some quite bizarre discussions about it claiming I'd said things I never had. But ho hum there you go that's the internet for you. I'm trying to keep my blog positive from now on and I'm only going to cover things I can be positive about on my blog:

http://thefrontlinegamer.blogspot.com/


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Orlanth wrote:@nkelsch

While it is good to add an ork as a 'control' for the experiment in order to be fair to GW could you add a resin miniature from another manufacturer aswell.
While the current results are alarming have we any reason to claim the new PP plastic Sorscha or Denny would fare any better.
Maybe just maybe we are being unfair to GW over finecasts heat resistance, I wonder if PP plastic resin is superior or just that no-one was motivated to test it in the same fashion.

Well I own a lot of Resin, including stuff from Kingdom of Death, Srudio McVey, Bane Legions and the new PP Plastic resin and I've had no issues with warping in the same room with any of it. I will say though that the PP plastic resin isn't picking up anywhere near as much detail as resins used by other firms. It does however feel like a more durable substance although I couldn't tell you what the shore-D rating of any of the above was.

Orlanth wrote:@nkelsch

While it is good to add an ork as a 'control' for the experiment in order to be fair to GW could you add a resin miniature from another manufacturer aswell.
While the current results are alarming have we any reason to claim the new PP plastic Sorscha or Denny would fare any better.
Maybe just maybe we are being unfair to GW over finecasts heat resistance, I wonder if PP plastic resin is superior or just that no-one was motivated to test it in the same fashion.

While doing this would be completely up to nkelsch, I personally find this distracting. Other companies products are not what are showing significant numbers of miscasts or using a 'new' material that is questionable. Because of those questionable concerns this is being done for FineCast. I think the Orc was added as a control because we are all very familiar with GW's plastics and are very happy with them. The resin as it is now at most has maybe a satisfaction rate of 50% and most of that is stemming only from weight and ease of cutting etc.

SirAngry wrote:I'm the author of the actual original blog. I'm actually looking forward to seeing what happens as well. I've left my Dwarf Gyrocopter in the loft room, out of the sunlight to see what happens, remembering this is a day 1 purchase as well and there has been some slight warp on the blades... no I'm not putting pictures up, not after last time. lol. However its no where near as bad as my Gandalf was. As I've said this leads me to believe my Gandalf was highly faulty and should never have been allowed near the shelves. I've had people in the industry contact me and explain or try to explain what they think is going on. I've been told finecast is a polyutherane with a synthetic rubber on more than one occasion by different people and that would explain the lower temps the stuff requires to become malleable (not melting) and also the memory the substance seems to have. I took the original blog down due to threats and just outright mis-information that was attributed to me. I never posted a picture of my Gandalf in a puddle of goo as people seemed to be claiming I put it out there because regardless of whether or not the miniature was faulty I found the incident unacceptable regardless, especially in light of the price. I have to say though GW fanboi's have hammered the final nail in the GW gaming coffin for me because the response of some to the issues with Finecast and anyone who doesn't like the stuff is farcical. Just for clarity I supported the GWs switch to resin:

http://thefrontlinegamer.blogspot.com/2011/05/fine-cast-or-to-rest-of-world-resin.html

The above article was written before the 'Gandalf incident' and hopefully shows I didn't have an agenda to rip on the stuff. I'm a huge fan of resin models as a painter.

Thanks for jumping in to clear this up. Sorry to hear about the threats.

SirAngry wrote: I'm trying to keep my blog positive from now on and I'm only going to cover things I can be positive about on my blog.

That is of course your decision, but I do feel that attitude devalues your work somewhat. If you're going to offer a review of a product, but only focus on the glowing positive aspects, then it's not much of a review. At that point, the blog becomes not so much a place to get an honest opinion, but rather an exercise in "what is Sir Angry gushing about today".

Omegus wrote:

SirAngry wrote: I'm trying to keep my blog positive from now on and I'm only going to cover things I can be positive about on my blog.

That is of course your decision, but I do feel that attitude devalues your work somewhat. If you're going to offer a review of a product, but only focus on the glowing positive aspects, then it's not much of a review. At that point, the blog becomes not so much a place to get an honest opinion, but rather an exercise in "what is Sir Angry gushing about today".

Perhaps I need to be clear, if there are problems I point them out trust me. But I'm going to be covering things I'm actually enjoying. As a case in point I'm loving the Studio McVey miniatures but I've not shirked from pointing out issues I've had. However by focussing on 'positive things' I mean steering clear of GW for now because people seem to struggle with rational sensible debate where the GW are concerned, and I'd include myself in that.

very true, very true, everyone gets a little crazy in one way or another when talkin about GW

@SirAngry

Anyone making death threats againts you over GW products is not someone you need to fear....if it were to do with a political slant towards Ireland or Islam, then yeah, I'd retract my statements as well, a knock on the door from the IRA or any number of so called "extremists" are to be avoided.....but GW products.....hell, I'd have given the "threatening party" my address in the hope that they would come by.....I'm thinking your "attacker" would be 5'2", skinny, acne, balding with dandruff and in need of a serious kicking.

nothing a roundhouse kick to the face wont solve!!!

Delephont wrote:@SirAngry

Anyone making death threats againts you over GW products is not someone you need to fear....if it were to do with a political slant towards Ireland or Islam, then yeah, I'd retract my statements as well, a knock on the door from the IRA or any number of so called "extremists" are to be avoided.....but GW products.....hell, I'd have given the "threatening party" my address in the hope that they would come by.....I'm thinking your "attacker" would be 5'2", skinny, acne, balding with dandruff and in need of a serious kicking.

lol. Yeah I agree, but I just didn't need the hassle to be honest. I did actually meet somebody who was highly critical of the person who wrote 'that Gandalf' blog to my face not realising it was me. I've never seen any one backtrack quite so much in their life, especially when they realised the 'incident' had happened to me and then all of a sudden he believed that it had happened especially when other people we both knew mutually backed it up because they had seen it for themselves as well. However having repeated threats off of three people just gets a bit waring to be honest.

<broadcast mode active: remain on topic; deviations into previous experiments and/or reports do not need additional discussion in this thread>

Three wasted opportunities to let the blood flow. Khorne is very disappointed.

SirAngry wrote:

I'm the author of the actual original blog.

Welcome SirAngry!

I have to say the 'melting Gandalf' made his rounds across many forums and many threads as definitive proof that Finecast would melt to puddles of goo like a box of crayons. I feel like the misinformation and hyperbole was enough to frustrate me to buy a 33$ model and do this experiment.

I have seen some other really good experiments with toaster ovens:

http://www.dragonpainting.net/viewtopic.php?f=46&t=2396&start=10

It does confirm the ability to warp, some of the shape memory and how extreme high temps seem to do 'nothing' to the model in regards to disfiguring.

I would welcome any contributions to the thread if you would like to add as this experiment is basically a sequel to your experiences. I plan to pack all this up as an article for reference for people who have questions about finecast material.

As to status updates:

Right now, my GW case is in the trunk of my car heating up. It is not quite boiling today, only about 87, but it is hot. I am trying to find a good thermometer for inside the car. I have ones for indoor temps that don't go over 100F and ones for ovens that basically start at 200F. I will hopefully figure something out between now and Friday.

I plan to take one final photo before I leave Friday, then pictures all weekend with an update Tuesday. (no internet at the beach!)

As for other resin models:

I am kinda mixed on this... This is kinda 'resin for the masses' as many GW players buy nothing but GW so GW plastic and GW metal is all they know. If you are a resin modeler... there are dozens of types of resins that come in lots of strengths, flexibilities, and all that. Just because a resin doesn't flex when heated doesn't make it 'better' unless you are explicitly looking for resin that never bends for any reason. I feel both FW and Finecast resin is made to bend to fare better from drops bumps and snaps. I have lots of resin that will snap/shear/break if dropped or flexed... but it is also not suited for wargaming. If I had some forgeworld unpainted of similar model size, I would probably add that in.

My only two concerns are 'does it melt unreasonably' and 'does paint stripping ruin detail/model making them one and done'. I am not sure I am qualified to say it is better or worse than PP resin as that is subjective and not quite quantitative. You guys can make your own decisions on that

Nkelsch, I'm just interested to see what happens with your test. I had loads of pictures sent of bent swords etc. I don't know whether any of them were real or faked but given my own experiences with resin not just GW Finecast I have to say I believe them. I also have to say I've seen other examples of warping as well so I know it happens. Certainly with the original batch of Finecast.

Cool thread, bro! Will definitely check back in on Monday.

I still say real men test it in an oven.

Say 130, for 20 minutes

Mr Mystery wrote:I still say real men test it in an oven.

Say 130, for 20 minutes

Just don't do it in an oven hotter then that that you plan to cook meals in(without cleaning afterward). I'm not sure about you, but I don't trust any potential fumes that may contaminate my food(given I don't know how the resin would react to extreme temperatures).

<off-topic quoted text redacted --Janthkin>
Anyway, VERY nice thread! Finally some good definitive answers and I can't wait to see the case results.

Although, if you wanted a controlled condition, an oven isn't a terrible option.

The hottest a car would really get on a hot summer day closed up is 130 degrees F (typically, some extreme locations like death valley or other desert-ish locations might push hotter). A convection oven functions by circulating hot air, so might prove to be a fairly useful test box. just make sure you place it on a realistic material (not just on the metal rack) and you should be fine.

Left in there for 30 minutes - 1 hour, you should be able to qualitatively say that the material is at temperature, and if it isn't destroyed, that's the end of that. The only reason to use a car in reality is to observe the effects of:

1) direct sunlight
2) how hot an enclosed car actually gets (if we knew this, the oven would be perfectly suitable, this # is likely posted somewhere on the internet, as I'm sure people have studied/recorded it for safety purposes)

Though, I do think nkelsch's test to see how heat + pressure (the miniature case) is useful as well, and I wouldn't want my mini case in the oven.

targetawg wrote:Although, if you wanted a controlled condition, an oven isn't a terrible option.

http://www.dragonpainting.net/viewtopic.php?f=46&t=2396&start=10

This shows oven results. Shows that almost no impact at 30C but warping at 40C and wonkyness at 60C, but 90C the stuff becomes stiff again. At no stage does it melt or lose detail... just becomes bendy. Also, it shows memory where it turns to normal when cooled.

My car experiments I feel will get to at least 40C. It was bendy... just not drooping under its own weight yet.

60C and up I expect those results from many resins.

Delephont wrote:@SirAngry

Anyone making death threats againts you over GW products is not someone you need to fear....if it were to do with a political slant towards Ireland or Islam, then yeah, I'd retract my statements as well, a knock on the door from the IRA or any number of so called "extremists" are to be avoided.....but GW products.....hell, I'd have given the "threatening party" my address in the hope that they would come by.....I'm thinking your "attacker" would be 5'2", skinny, acne, balding with dandruff and in need of a serious kicking.

I can understand the caution. I'm thinking right now of that incident a few years ago, where some users of a Nintendo forum in Europe had an argument online. One of the users travelled to Germany and murdered him. Obviously the guy was a psychopath, but the point being you can never be completely sure who is sat behind the monitor.

Orlanth wrote:@nkelsch

While it is good to add an ork as a 'control' for the experiment in order to be fair to GW could you add a resin miniature from another manufacturer aswell.
While the current results are alarming have we any reason to claim the new PP plastic Sorscha or Denny would fare any better.
Maybe just maybe we are being unfair to GW over finecasts heat resistance, I wonder if PP plastic resin is superior or just that no-one was motivated to test it in the same fashion.

I'm pretty sure that the PP plastic isn't the same stuff. I've never seen any official word from PP about their plastics being plastic/resin hybrid. It seem much more like the old 'Warzone' plastic kits. The Mantic plastic/resin is almost certainly the same stuff though.

PP’s plastic in my opinion feels similar to the older GW plastic used in 3rd edition in that it is very similar in texture, colour and durability The PP plastic certainly feels a lot more rubbery and flexible than the GW plastic so I wouldn’t be surprised if there was resin added to the mix.

George Spiggott wrote:

Orlanth wrote:@nkelsch

While it is good to add an ork as a 'control' for the experiment in order to be fair to GW could you add a resin miniature from another manufacturer aswell.
While the current results are alarming have we any reason to claim the new PP plastic Sorscha or Denny would fare any better.
Maybe just maybe we are being unfair to GW over finecasts heat resistance, I wonder if PP plastic resin is superior or just that no-one was motivated to test it in the same fashion.

I'm pretty sure that the PP plastic isn't the same stuff. I've never seen any official word from PP about their plastics being plastic/resin hybrid. It seem much more like the old 'Warzone' plastic kits. The Mantic plastic/resin is almost certainly the same stuff though.

I have GW Finecast, PP Resin, and Mantic plastic-resin. All three are unique materials.

The Mantic stuff is very close to polystyrene in quality. Its rigid, and fairly strong, but allows some flex.
Of the three, I think its the best material.

PP Resin is softer than the Mantic, but still much harder than Finecast. It can be re-shaped with hot-boiling water.
I think any lack of detail people think they see is due to the lightness of color of the PP resin.
I have the battlebox Denegra model in resin, and the same in metal and they look identical with primer.

I got a Finecast Emperor's Champion, and he turned out decent.
But even after 3 Hot water-cold water dippings his sword still goes back to curved.
I think the material is shoddy and inferior.
It feels cheap. Like those knock-off Hot Wheels you get at Dollar stores.
Sure, the detail is sharp, but I dont think it can take flexing or pressure.

Sir Angry. Thank you for the time to come up here to post your comment concerning finecast.

Ooooooooooh... I have some pre-beach results, it may change what I do at the beach a little based upon these results.

Here is the temp info for my area for reference:

June 28th
Hi 94°F
Lo 74°F

June 29th
Hi 89°F
Lo 74°F

Weather.com

Two days in the trunk of my car in the foam pictures above. I will have pictures tonight!

Im sure Satan read about the oven tests and is glad to know that his finecast models should hold up okay in Hell

Kirasu wrote:Im sure Satan read the Oven tests and is glad to know that his finecast models should hold up okay in Hell

rofl

Omegus wrote:Three wasted opportunities to let the blood flow. Khorne is very disappointed.

Yeah the thing is I'm more of a Slaaneshi convert

SirAngry wrote:

Omegus wrote:Three wasted opportunities to let the blood flow. Khorne is very disappointed.

Yeah the thing is I'm more of a Slaaneshi convert

Then you would have enjoyed the pain given and received. Doubly wasteful!

There are many forms of pleasure and pain is but the crudest!!! lol. Besides I fear we might be side tracking this thread, I'm looking forward to seeing some updates soon.

TEST 2: The foam case test... RESULTS!

So this sat in my car for 3 days. Not even 3 particularly hot days in my opinion... 88-94 max temp, sunny. So it went hotcoldhotcold just left in the trunk.

Sooooooooooo...


Say whhaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa?

First of all, no loss of detail. This stuff doesn't seem to melt or smoosh when it comes to detail.

Also, the parts I thought would droop/warp didn't... the parts I didn't think would droop/warp did!

*Gandalf on foot was FINE. His little stick didn't bend or warp. The weight of the model and pressure of the foam I guess didn't do much of anything against the small staff.
*Gandalf on horse, his staff was also FINE. It had pressure against it, but didn't seem to do much.
*Gandalf on horse, his SWORD was bent! The pressure of the foam on his base pushed against the sword... The heat made the sword soft, sword bent under pressure. Cooled in new position.

The worst...
*Gandalf's horse is... bent? This is killing me that I didn't take a prior picture from this angle, but I don't remember the horse bending at an angle to the left like this... I can't tell if the pressure on the base and bendy of the legs caused the horse to lean or what? It looks wrong to the eye and makes me think that I didn't mount it like this. Also I see the tail is slanted which makes me think it is leaning because the tail was flat on the base before. I feel bad because I can't remember how it looked before!!!

It does feel like the direction the horse is leaning is the very path it would take if it was hot and bent more as it follows the natural bend of the legs under gravity.

So I am going to say the final result is:

Car heat can bend the model in a figure case UNDER PRESSURE. So far, car heat alone doesn't seem to do it, but heat and gravity could happen depending on the model.

If this was a painted model, I would expect the paint job on the sword and legs to be ruined or cracked due to this bend. I also feel the repair if this was painted would require water or extreme heat which would harm the paint job. *I* do not plan to leave finecast in my car, and I also will make sure any holes I transport them in are large enough without pressure... If I decide to buy any... Since They have no greenskins I want, I may hold off purchasing for a while. It isn't a total dealbreaker, but does make me consider my transport habits. Is this unreasonable? Dunno, depends on you and your habits if it is acceptable to you. It is your call

TEST 3: Gandalf goes to the beach!

Personally, I feel Gandalf might actually collapse under his own weight as he seems to have a natural bend in his legs. We know under low car heat, a foam case will smoosh a model... Now I want to see if in hot beach summer sun, if horse gandalf will actually fall down completely. So he will go on my dash for the entire weekend in the sun. Foot gandalf will stay in the foam case.

Man, that sucks! Looks like I need to start hunting down the metals before they all disappear.

I'm eagerly awaiting the results of TEST 3.

Very interesting... (and I love the Gandalf inset). I think you hit it nk... it's heat and pressure (or weight) that causes the problems, whether it's the pressure of the foam on the sword, or the weight of the horses body on the spindly legs.

Too bad you didn't have a similarly proportioned regular plastic or GW resin in the case with this model for comparison.

Gitsplitta wrote:
Too bad you didn't have a similarly proportioned regular plastic or GW resin in the case with this model for comparison.

I had the plastic orc... nothing happened to him and his bosspole... but he is also not a horse.

I feel like if I had put 40mm based gandalf in a tray deeper than 25mm and didn't smoosh him, he would be fine... But I smoosh my nobz all the time because nothing bad happens. I feel like knowing what I know I could transport finecast models with no issue possibly.

I want to see if the horse pose of gandalf collapses in extreme heat.

Awesome job Nkelsch, objective as well and I think your thoughts on what would happen to a paint job, for a figure in this kind of situation, are worth considering.

Very nice test! Can't wait to see the beach result.

Funny Gandalf-insert, as well. Nearly had me wake my family up, as breaking out in laughter at 1:20 AM isn't the best idea!

Hello,
I would really like to see the next test, mine were fairly simple and un-scientific, as I was not there to see all of the results. My first was to bounce Logan off the floor at a couple of angles, he came out fine. The other was different, due to the window sill plan, I paint for a game shop and play there I put him in the window in front of the store and left him there for 2 weeks while I went to Hawaii, I am guessing that it was faily normal weather here, so 80s, and the shop is not well air conditioned or ventilated. There was again no problems, this was in batch 0. So my main issue was of course bubbles, flash and pinholes, Now as part of my experiment he has yet to be clear coated as well, and his paint has stayed in place, even on the bounce test. So over all not bad, I cant wait to the next test for you.

Regards,
Carl

@nKelsch, interesting result. As I said in my blog I felt it was the weight of the horse that caused my Gandalf to buckle. Also just like to clear up the 'window sill' claim as well. I always said my Gandalf was on my GAMING TABLE which is in my loft room about 3 to 4 feet away from the window. I have wood sash windows so trust me I have no window sill to put mini's on. However he would have been in direct sunlight on my table and I've since found out that it clearly gets quite warm there when the sunlight is streaming through the window. I left him there because its where I take photo's normally for my blog and I've not had problems with resin piece being left there from other companies (its also where I undercoat minis). Interested to see what happens at the beach.

Kudos. Its unfortunate that the results are bad for you.

As a side note, one of my friends bought a finecast model and found that when he kept the model in a GW case its hammer would bend. Heat did not seem to be a factor. It was only the pressure from the case.

Since you now have a slightly warped finecast model, is there any chance we can convince you to prime it, slap some paint on it, and then try to strip it down? Inquiring minds would like to know.

look forward to test 3!

Omegus wrote:Man, that sucks! Looks like I need to start hunting down the metals before they all disappear.

I'm eagerly awaiting the results of TEST 3.

I been buying ALOT of metals lately for that reason, plus i think they will be cool in 10 years when there are alot less of them around

I you melt that thing down to slag can you take it back and get a return?


LMAO!!!

What temperature was the case?

RESULTS:

So the car was at the beach for 5 days... It got to 94 in the sun, about 125-130 inside the car from the thermometer I had.

Interestingly enough, warped Gandalf from the case was on the dashboard and ended up 'unwarping' back to his upright, straight sword. It feels like the heat and cooling made the model go back to the original state. Finecast has some memory it seems. This would probably make me more worried about pieces that come bent vs pieces that bend via heat/pressure. As for melting... Finecast doesn't melt. It gets bendy, but it is already flexible material.

Personally it seems like 'pressure' is the major issue, not so much heat. If you display the figure free-standing in heat you should have no issues. All you may need to do is take more care with packing and not smoosh models into holes too small the way I did with Horse Gandalf. I guess that does change the way I would transport but that is about it.

I also suspect pressure could bend a model without heat. It may be possible to smoosh a finecast in room temperature without heat and get a bent model. That is not a huge difference from metal but something to be aware of.

So, the follow up question... What does all this bending do to a painted figure, even if it eventually comes back into shape?

Gitsplitta wrote:So, the follow up question... What does all this bending do to a painted figure, even if it eventually comes back into shape?

My next tests will be 'pressure no heat' causing warping and 'heat/bending" with paint.

I gotta get some painting done!

Run(paint) you Fools!-Gandalf

lol, i love lord of the rings

I am finding the results very hard to believe, and contrary to my own experience with plastic models.

You expect us to believe that you left the models on the dash of your car for five consecutive days with temps > 90 F and that no melting occurred. I have had plastic bases warp/melt under much cooler conditions. As the finecast models use the same bases I find the results of your tests unbelievable.

The comments about Gandalf returning to his unsmooshed form are very surprising. I am fully aware of the concept of the memory of a material, but I just do not think there would be enough energy to return the model to its original state.

I would advise other users to keep their finecast models cool and unstressed.

i actually was planning on mistreating my models, lol, i think this experiment is being done just to test the limits.

nkelsch has done a wonderful job documenting his results and providing them to us. He has invested his own time and money into these tests and honestly you should respect that. If you find it hard to believe please put your own money where your mouth is and test the material yourself. Plastic =/= Resin being used in Finecast miniatures.

While the 'heat' tests are proving beneficial to the community as a whole I still await the paint tests on this material. For the record, I would never buy a mini, whether Finecast or metal, that costs $18 - $22 for a single figure.

I would agree there should be more concern about a figure already bent from the package. This would narrow the margin of error for Finecast even more. I'd be horrified to have a model come bent, fix it as prescribed, paint it...then have it go back to a bent state because it got too hot.

We have multiple people who have put finecast in an oven upwards 200+ degrees and it doesn't melt. That isn't the issue at hand... we know finecast is a resin hybrid of some sort and very soft. Heat makes it bendy. How bendy is the issue.

We also know other resins have memory, this is not in dispute, but since finecast is some sort of hybrid material, we are unsure what it will act like. Seems like resin.

As I stated in my previous post, I have left GW minis in a car which was cooler than yours and had their plastic bases melt/warp. Thus I find it hard to believe that the BASES on your finecast models did not melt or warp after being left in a car for five days in 90+ F temperatures.

spaceelf wrote:As I stated in my previous post, I have left GW minis in a car which was cooler than yours and had their plastic bases melt/warp. Thus I find it hard to believe that the BASES on your finecast models did not melt or warp after being left in a car for five days in 90+ F temperatures.

I could see slotta bases warp because they have a thin piece on each end that could warp. I would be highly surprised to see a 40mm just go funhouse mirror.

Also, we have hundreds of people who have had GW plastics in cars with no issues. I had a GW plastic orc in the case with no issue as well.

I have been transporting GW models on GW bases in hot cars for 20 years and never had a GW base melt/warp. The only time I have seen it is in 'oven' environments 200 degrees + and all plastic will go bad then.

Have people had issues with bases melting off their figures in cars? I have never even remotely hears someone say that.

Thread delivers. Thanks for your time, money and efoort, nkelsch.

Also, funnily enough: "nkelsch" is the noise a Finecast mini makes when you heat it up and apply too much pressure.

Great thread, looking forward to the painted tests.

nkelsch wrote:

spaceelf wrote:As I stated in my previous post, I have left GW minis in a car which was cooler than yours and had their plastic bases melt/warp. Thus I find it hard to believe that the BASES on your finecast models did not melt or warp after being left in a car for five days in 90+ F temperatures.

I could see slotta bases warp because they have a thin piece on each end that could warp. I would be highly surprised to see a 40mm just go funhouse mirror.

Also, we have hundreds of people who have had GW plastics in cars with no issues. I had a GW plastic orc in the case with no issue as well.

I have been transporting GW models on GW bases in hot cars for 20 years and never had a GW base melt/warp. The only time I have seen it is in 'oven' environments 200 degrees + and all plastic will go bad then.

Have people had issues with bases melting off their figures in cars? I have never even remotely hears someone say that.

nkelsch wrote:

spaceelf wrote:As I stated in my previous post, I have left GW minis in a car which was cooler than yours and had their plastic bases melt/warp. Thus I find it hard to believe that the BASES on your finecast models did not melt or warp after being left in a car for five days in 90+ F temperatures.

I could see slotta bases warp because they have a thin piece on each end that could warp. I would be highly surprised to see a 40mm just go funhouse mirror.

Also, we have hundreds of people who have had GW plastics in cars with no issues. I had a GW plastic orc in the case with no issue as well.

I have been transporting GW models on GW bases in hot cars for 20 years and never had a GW base melt/warp. The only time I have seen it is in 'oven' environments 200 degrees + and all plastic will go bad then.

Have people had issues with bases melting off their figures in cars? I have never even remotely hears someone say that.

I had a GW base melt on me after a cat knocked liquid poly over it... does that count? lol

nkelsch wrote:
I could see slotta bases warp because they have a thin piece on each end that could warp. I would be highly surprised to see a 40mm just go funhouse mirror.

Also, we have hundreds of people who have had GW plastics in cars with no issues. I had a GW plastic orc in the case with no issue as well.

I have been transporting GW models on GW bases in hot cars for 20 years and never had a GW base melt/warp. The only time I have seen it is in 'oven' environments 200 degrees + and all plastic will go bad then.

Have people had issues with bases melting off their figures in cars? I have never even remotely hears someone say that.

Those temps you have are what we call "Spring" in Texas. Over the past 20 years for me, the ONLY thing that has ever warped from being left in my car (by any manufacturer) were the square stands for Epic. And warped they did...

Thank you for the tests. For a more expensive product the Finecast just doesn't seem to deliver. A shame as I would prefer plastic over metal. I expect metal prices on Ebay to sky rocket in the coming months.

I would advise other users to keep their finecast models cool and unstressed.

Sod the models, it's us members that need to keep cool and unstressed!

Chibi Bodge-Battle wrote:

I would advise other users to keep their finecast models cool and unstressed.

Sod the models, it's us members that need to keep cool and unstressed!

I would advise everyone to love and cherish their metal models.

I hope that my comments have not come across as being too harsh. However, it could truly be tragic if people subjected their minis to extremes of temperatures on account of this thread.

I am not the only one to have problems with bases warping and melting. see the following thread from a few years back
http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/212875.page

Plastic vehicles also warp from heat exposure.

Augustus wrote:

Chibi Bodge-Battle wrote:

I would advise other users to keep their finecast models cool and unstressed.

Sod the models, it's us members that need to keep cool and unstressed!

I would advise everyone to love and cherish their metal models.

Still trying to decide what to do with what is nearly $1000 worth of GW metal models. On the one hand I say keep 'em...on the other I says...'Sssellls themmm'.

Rymafyr wrote:

Augustus wrote:

Chibi Bodge-Battle wrote:

I would advise other users to keep their finecast models cool and unstressed.

Sod the models, it's us members that need to keep cool and unstressed!

I would advise everyone to love and cherish their metal models.

Still trying to decide what to do with what is nearly $1000 worth of GW metal models. On the one hand I say keep 'em...on the other I says...'Sssellls themmm'.

I would keep them, because in 10 years when everyone is using finecast and you whip out some metal models, it will be all "OOOOOOHH, AAAAAAHHH, Special....VERY Special"

dajobe wrote:

Rymafyr wrote:

Augustus wrote:

Chibi Bodge-Battle wrote:

I would advise other users to keep their finecast models cool and unstressed.

Sod the models, it's us members that need to keep cool and unstressed!

I would advise everyone to love and cherish their metal models.

Still trying to decide what to do with what is nearly $1000 worth of GW metal models. On the one hand I say keep 'em...on the other I says...'Sssellls themmm'.

I would keep them, because in 10 years when everyone is using finecast and you whip out some metal models, it will be all "OOOOOOHH, AAAAAAHHH, Special....VERY Special"

That and $1000 of metal models really just means "I have a metal army"

targetawg wrote:

dajobe wrote:

Rymafyr wrote:

Augustus wrote:

Chibi Bodge-Battle wrote:

I would advise other users to keep their finecast models cool and unstressed.

Sod the models, it's us members that need to keep cool and unstressed!

I would advise everyone to love and cherish their metal models.

Still trying to decide what to do with what is nearly $1000 worth of GW metal models. On the one hand I say keep 'em...on the other I says...'Sssellls themmm'.

I would keep them, because in 10 years when everyone is using finecast and you whip out some metal models, it will be all "OOOOOOHH, AAAAAAHHH, Special....VERY Special"

That and $1000 of metal models really just means "I have a metal army"

Like my fully painted Necron Raider Army that gets oooohhhh and aaaahs when it is presented out on a game table.

And I win with it too

For what it's worth, a buddy left a Privateer Storm Strider in his car for a few days (and even 5 minutes is too long here in Texas), and it warped slightly. So all resin is vulnerable to heat.

From this and similar threads I've read, it seems Finecast is no less vulnerable, and perhaps more so. Combined with the atrocious casting quality and lack of QC, I'll be passing on Finecast models.

Nice! It looks like a nice model. Post a pic when your done!

Omegus wrote:So all resin is vulnerable to heat.

Exactly so. The precise temp and reaction vary but all resins will soften from heating.

So basically this whole expensive and time-consuming experiment was meant to point out the obvious: that with enough exposure, extreme heat will warp resin models.

I don't mean to undermine what nkelsch has done or the sacrifices made in the name of science, but I just don't see the point. Clearly the claim that Finecast will "melt into goo" was bs, but that doesn't mean that everything we know is wrong and that it suddenly might be okay to start leaving entire armies in the trunks of our cars in 100 degree weather for hours on end. Up until this point I just assumed it was common sense that resin/plastic models would soften and warp when hot, and that people who cared about the models they spent a fortune on wouldn't use the trunk of their car as a permanent storage solution*. I don't know why all of a sudden people thought resin wouldn't warp or bend in heat and needed someone to prove it to them...I'd like to know how you guys have been fixing warped parts from Forge World models this whole time.

Hell, the release of Finecast seems to have caused everyone to regress into hobby noobs apparently. Remember when people were claiming the models didn't have to be washed and you could apply paint to them directly because GW didn't use mold release? When I got my replacement box of incubi I noticed that some of the models were covered in powder, which is dried mold release and needs to be rinsed off if you want paint to stick. So yeah, needless to say I'll be ignoring that particular piece of advice and washing every resin model I get (not Finecast though because I'm not buying that crap anymore).

That's just my opinion though. I don't think the results from the beach trip have been posted yet, so I'll be curious to see what the models look like after that. EDIT: I just missed them apparently. Okay, whatever, I still think storing your models in extreme heat is careless and stupid but if you guys really wanna do that then go right ahead.



*Seriously, you guys that do this gak, stop it. I don't care how "safe" you think it is. Even if you live in an area where it's possible to pull your car up to a gas station and leave the motor running and the windows down while you go inside to buy something, and not have your car stolen immediately, does that change the fact that it's still a boneheaded fething thing to do? I see people do that crap around here all the time and I always secretly hope someone does attempt to steal one of those cars if for no other reason than to teach those people a lesson: don't leave an open invitation. I never leave my apartment door unlocked, and whenever I park my car I always leave the windows up and doors locked. I really don't understand how people can be so careless.

I bought one of GWs new plastic necromancer models today and for all the hype (and indeed anti-hype) regarding finecast, I really, really, really hope this is the way they will go with single miniatures from now on.

The model is nicely sculpted and is simplicity itself to put together. The molded base (with a skeleton depressed into some mud) is a great touch. Mold lines are present, but are fairly minimal.

Seriously, this kit takes both finecast and metal miniatures and stomps them into the dirt. Beyond a few barely visible mold lines, there are literally no problems of any sort. I can kind of see why GW used finecast for the older miniature lines, but if you're reading this GW, more of these plastic single miniatures for the new stuff please

Indeed, I got one of those necromancers too, and it is a brilliant model. Well worth the £8 price tag, to me.

Flashman wrote:I bought one of GWs new plastic necromancer models today and for all the hype (and indeed anti-hype) regarding finecast, I really, really, really hope this is the way they will go with single miniatures from now on.

The model is nicely sculpted and is simplicity itself to put together. The molded base (with a skeleton depressed into some mud) is a great touch. Mold lines are present, but are fairly minimal.

Seriously, this kit takes both finecast and metal miniatures and stomps them into the dirt. Beyond a few barely visible mold lines, there are literally no problems of any sort. I can kind of see why GW used finecast for the older miniature lines, but if you're reading this GW, more of these plastic single miniatures for the new stuff please

Amen brother! Got the Sorceress, Necromancer and Tzeentch Sorceror so far. Each one has minimal mould lines (seriously, once deft scrape and they're gone) and are simply gorgeous.

MOAR PLS!

Sidstyler wrote:So basically this whole expensive and time-consuming experiment was meant to point out the obvious: that with enough exposure, extreme heat will warp resin models.

I don't mean to undermine what nkelsch has done or the sacrifices made in the name of science, but I just don't see the point. Clearly the claim that Finecast will "melt into goo" was bs, but that doesn't mean that everything we know is wrong and that it suddenly might be okay to start leaving entire armies in the trunks of our cars in 100 degree weather for hours on end.

The point is that many of us go to a weekly wargaming evening on a weeknight, directly after work. It is often more convenient to leave our models in the trunk of our car (which is neither in direct sunlight nor an obvious invitation to thieves) than to bring the cases into our workplace for the day.

In New Hampshire it is frequently in the 80s during the summer, sometimes spiking into the 90s and even high 90s. I have never had a problem leaving my plastic or metal models in the trunk, in their cases, and I've been doing this for over ten years. I have had a display board which I carelessly left in the rear window warp, and I have seen tanks which some fool left in direct sunlight on a hot day warp as well.

The point of the exercise is to determine if Finecast stands a greater risk/is damaged or warped at lower temperatures than the plastic models whose tolerances we know pretty well. What constitutes "extreme" heat varies depending on your personal locale and climate. Obviously none of us intent to leave our models on the dashboard for extended periods, and we can assume that none of us are dumb enough to leave our cases exposed invitingly for thieves. But nkelsch's experiments are meant to test the extremes. The temperature on his dashboard in sunlight might be the trunk temperature in parts of Texas, or southern Spain, or elsewhere in the world where some Dakkanaut is reading.

Well said Mannahnin. I have been following this thread since it started, and I find it quite interesting... especially as it's being conducted at the lower temperatures that it is.

Out here in Arizona...( i.e. THE DESERT) it can reach 100 by the end of spring, and easily reaches 120 in the summer. So the lower temps are of interest to me, since if it's too hot at the lower temps.... well, way too hot here.

Thank you nkelsch for conducting this experiment and sharing the results with the rest of us.

Mannahnin wrote:The point is that many of us go to a weekly wargaming evening on a weeknight, directly after work. It is often more convenient to leave our models in the trunk of our car (which is neither in direct sunlight nor an obvious invitation to thieves) than to bring the cases into our workplace for the day.

Admittedly I hadn't thought of that, mostly because I couldn't imagine going to something like that right after a shift.

Yup. It's something quite a large number of us do, so the safety of our models in the trunk during the Summer is a very relevant concern. My FLGS is roughly halfway between my office and my home. I'd be getting to the store a good 45 min to an hour later if I went home first. Plus just spending that extra time and gas driving.

Sidstyler wrote:So basically this whole expensive and time-consuming experiment was meant to point out the obvious: that with enough exposure, extreme heat will warp resin models.

I don't mean to undermine what nkelsch has done or the sacrifices made in the name of science, but I just don't see the point. Clearly the claim that Finecast will "melt into goo" was bs

I feel I must stress that this particular "claim" was never made, at least not by people critical of Finecast. The point was brought up that some reports suggest that Finecast is particularly susceptible to heat (which indeed seems to be the case, I've left FW resin in the trunk for days without any noticeable warping or chipping of paint), the whole "melt into goo" histrionics were voiced by the apologists, because it's standard practice for tools to exaggerate an opponent's position and make ad hominem attacks when they don't have a better argument.

Okay, whatever, I still think storing your models in extreme heat is careless and stupid but if you guys really wanna do that then go right ahead.

As for this point, several posters above me have already pointed out why not being able to leave your stuff in the car for a couple of hours may be of serious concern.

Omegus, the guy who posted the original Gandalf pics stated (earlier in this thread) that he personally encountered at least one person who had heard an exaggerated "turn into goo" story, and thought that's what the original article had claimed.

Omegus wrote:

Okay, whatever, I still think storing your models in extreme heat is careless and stupid but if you guys really wanna do that then go right ahead.

As for this point, several posters above me have already pointed out why not being able to leave your stuff in the car for a couple of hours may be of serious concern.

Yes. And if you think that's going to stop other people from pointing out my stupidity long after the fact then you're wrong!

Let me amend that then by saying it would be "careless and stupid" in just about any other situation.

While we are on the topic of melting models, what do forgeworld stuff do in the heat? Or do they go all flopsy?

Personally, I am more worried about theft over heat when leaving models in my car. When I was weeknight gaming frequently, I brought my figures inside to work. Of course that is a luxury because I have an office job with a secure office to keep my junk in. Not everyone has that. I have had worse problems from leaving metal figs in COLD temps where the expanding/shrinking of metal attached to plastic caused chips and pieces to break off. No one ever called metal the devil because of that.

It is always a personal decision to leave figures in cars and risk damage. Finecast GETS SOFT. It also has Memory. Unless you smoosh your models in your case you probably will be fine in most circumstances. If you are worried, then make bigger foam holes without lying the model on its side or smooshed too hard between foam. If that is too risky, avoid the material and stick to plastic.

So far, I am not deterred from buying finecast. I can handle the heat and the 'flaws' are easy to avoid buying at GW. I don't find it too different from forgeworld or other softer resins I have. Harder resins are not always BETTER as harder it is, more prone to shattering it is.

Now I just want to know about paint and stripping.

EagleArk wrote:While we are on the topic of melting models, what do forgeworld stuff do in the heat? Or do they go all flopsy?

They definitely warp, and don't have that great of memory (heated forgeworld models don't revert back to shape).

But they also certainly don't melt.

They definitely warp, and don't have that great of memory

Unfortunately I can relate :(

Chibi Bodge-Battle wrote:

They definitely warp, and don't have that great of memory

Unfortunately I can relate :(

I would have been very happy to learn this lesson without running an impromptu field test on $300 worth of FW Lightnings.

Anyone want some FW Lightnings? They only droop slightly!

Mr Mystery wrote:
Amen brother! Got the Sorceress, Necromancer and Tzeentch Sorceror so far. Each one has minimal mould lines (seriously, once deft scrape and they're gone) and are simply gorgeous.

MOAR PLS!

Even more in favour - these new ones are a beauty to convert up as well - easy to scrap, cut, shape....

Rather impressive plastics these.