How do Battle Sister become one of them?
And what are they? Do they represent a portion of Emperor's own energy?
Or are they simply some form of highly trained psychic mutant?
Basically, sainthood in the Imperium (in general terms) is a function of the Ecclesiarchy. Someone does something heroic, either in the face of battle or for the good of the people of the Imperium or whatever, in means that are deemed to be inspired by the Emperor and blessed with His Grace and Power.
The Ecclesiarchy gathers evidence and testimony of the event, tests the area as well as the body and spirit of the proposed saint (if any remains are available) for signs of Warp corruption or taint and, assuming it passes muster and cannot be explained by other means, they are sainted and added to the list of Imperial Saints.
As far as the Living Saints of the Sisters of Battle are concerned, they seem to be a living host for a fragment of the Emperor's power, in that they glow, and float, and can do other nifty, holy things.
The Sisterhood does not have psykers in its ranks, these are burned as witches.
dave_salmon wrote:In the Enforcer book it talks about the troubled daughter of a noble being accepted for sorroritas training to straighten her out.
Seemed a bit silly.
It should be noted that she was being accepted into the Militant Arm. The Soritas are a far more diverse organisation than 'nuns with guns'.
As for the OP, as Psienesis pointed out, there is a marked difference between Saints and a Living Saint. I'm still not quite sure which one Sebastian Thor was.
All members of the Sororitas, at the beginning, go through the same military-religious school training. Here, they learn all about the Emperor, their history, the Imperium, its function, its saints, its heroes, its enemies and the Imperial Creed. They also all receive basic training in the Flamer, the Bolter and the mace, the basic weapons of the Sororitas.
Being that this is the toughest of Catholic schools for girls, the training regimen and discipline is exceedingly harsh. Once they are deemed worthy, however, they are selected to join one of the main Ordos of the Sororitas. They are not, however, required to stay. A Sister can leave the Sororitas at any time of her own free will, and none will condemn her for it. The Sororitas has no use for false piety or coerced allegiance.
Psienesis wrote: They are not, however, required to stay. A Sister can leave the Sororitas at any time of her own free will, and none will condemn her for it. The Sororitas has no use for false piety or coerced allegiance.
I don't recall reading this anywhere, even in the (somewhat haphazard) Faith and Fire novel.
It makes sense. In addition, anyone wanting more information on become an Imperial saint should look into the process of becoming a Catholic saint, since the two have more than a few similarities.
As has been mentioned already, there are no psykers nor mutants in the Sisterhood. Both things are detectable by genetic testing, and all prospective members of the Sororitas are carefully screened to ensure purity of mind as well as body. In fact, the "Shield of Faith" AoE special rule of the Adepta Sororitas outright negates minor psychic powers (regardless if used for or against them) whilst seriously impeding major ones.
Where the power of a Living Saint truly comes from depends on where you think the power behind the Sisters' "normal" Acts of Faith comes from. Either it truly is the Emperor working through one of his chosen servants, or it is the collective power of faith somehow causing an equivalent to psychic phenomena whilst circumventing the normal requirements and restrictions. Like the Orks' Waaagh field.
I thought about the latter a lot, and by keeping in mind that emotion can occasionally have a very strong effect in 40k (-> birth of Slaanesh) as well as religion being a perfect conduit for emotion, we come to the idea that a Living Saint is the faithful crusading masses' combined hate, zeal and dedication which somehow ends up being channeled into a focal point, essentially jumping to and "possessing" one of the most faithful, thereby investing her with great supernatural powers which are naturally taken to be of divine origin by the holy warriors present.
A Living Saint's end could then occur out of two reasons: Either the frail human form of the Saint simply cannot bear the strange energies coursing through her body and she "burns out" like a magnesium flare, or - a slightly more ironical and grimdark thought - over time the masses of the faithful get used to the Living Saint doing all the hard work for them and the flow of strong emotion slowly dries up, once reaching the critical threshold essentially cutting the link between the Saint and the actual source of her powers, leaving her body a wrecked hulk.
Just theory, mind you. There is no actual canon regarding the exact nature of Faith Powers in 40k - of course everything is attributed as being the Emperor's work, but nobody knows if it's true.
Psienesis wrote:As far as the story with the girl... All members of the Sororitas, at the beginning, go through the same military-religious school training. Here, they learn all about the Emperor, their history, the Imperium, its function, its saints, its heroes, its enemies and the Imperial Creed. They also all receive basic training in the Flamer, the Bolter and the mace, the basic weapons of the Sororitas.
All this is actually done in the Ecclesiarchy's Schola Progenium, and even though the Adepta Sororitas do have a hand in the training, the progena are not yet members of the Sisterhood. Even progena meant to become Sororitas later on may still "switch paths" if they are considered to be more useful elsewhere. The Schola Progenium is also the one and only source of new recruits for the Sisterhood.
Once you actually join the Sisterhood (meaning selection to begin the novitiate), you're in it for life. Anyone wishing to leave would probably only judged to be tainted with doubt, thus "obviously" requiring their minds and body to be purged by prayer, fasting and flagellation until they're brought in line and their souls are saved. After all, how else could this individual hope to become a devoted servant of the Emperor when refusing the chance to train with His finest? Rejection is Heresy. </grimdark>
Unfortunately it just seems the novel's author was looking a bit too closely to medieval nuns when coming up with the idea that a noble family sends their daughter to the cloister for education. The AS aren't a Boarding School.
Not saying that the idea in itself is completely undoable in 40k, but the Orders Militant make no sense whatsoever when the Orders Famulous are the dedicated arm of the Sisterhood for such things. I'd even deem it possible that the Famulous do run a facility like a "40k boarding school" (with AS teachers but without the girls being considered members of the Sisterhood), though in-house education with a Sister Famulous as governess should be (and is hinted as being) the norm. Alternatively just keep the AS out of it entirely and invent a local cult, or force the girl to become a lay servant of the normal clergy in some secluded chapel, which would probably be the setting's best equivalent to what the author had intended(?).
I like your theory about the origin of Living Saints, especially the bit about burning out. I never read this story about the Sisters, but as you say, a rich enough family could probably get quite a bit accomplished beyond the scope of normal operations.
The "burning out" isn't exactly my idea, if I recall correctly this is actually mentioned in the Codex - I was just trying to explain the why.
Jimsolo wrote:I never read this story about the Sisters, but as you say, a rich enough family could probably get quite a bit accomplished beyond the scope of normal operations.
Depends on how far you go. The Sisters won't get pushed around by a bunch of nobles - in fact, they are in a far better position to push the nobles around. The Orders Famulous are an incredibly useful tool for political power games, which means that:
a) the Adepta Sororitas can never be allowed to appear influenceable, else all the nobles in the galaxy would grow even more wary of them than they already are
b) the influence of the Adepta Sororitas as a galactic organization is far more wide-reaching than a noble house whose power is limited to a specific region of space
I'm quite sure that a powerful noble is able to pull a few strings with the local Ecclesiarchy, which, in the form of recommendations and requests, may even affect the Sororitas to a certain degree - but in the end, the only one who can command them to do anything is the Ecclesiarch himself, who I presume is beyond the reach of the nobility since Thor's reformations after the Age of Apostasy (and certain laws dedicated to preventing such things, lest a new Vandire may arise some day).
The rules of the Sisters are sacrosanct, personally I don't see any way how some noble could force a convent to break them. The Sisterhood generally doesn't allow the idea of "exceptions", and if pushed they would simply push back, first involving the Order's Home Convent on Terra or Ophelia VII, then the Ecclesiarchy, and then the High Lords of Terra (where the Ecclesiarchy has a permanent seat). I don't think anyone would want to risk this just for some troublesome brat who may just as well be raised in a local cult or non-Sororitas chapel.
That said, perhaps there would be room for a non-Sororitas servant in a convent? Similar to the role of Marine serfs in their monasteries. That could actually work - the only things that I don't deem fitting are the ideas of nobles telling the AS who they have to allow amidst their ranks (in fact, according to the Codex, all Sororitas are Schola Progenium orphans) and Sisters simply leaving their convent at will as if it'd be a volunteer organization.
The Dark Heresy RPG is the most-inclusive source we have on how the Sisters function and operate on the day-to-day, and it is here that we are told that all of the Sisters who serve, do so because they want to, and because they truly believe that their faith is pure and that what they do is what the Emperor wants of them.
Think about it... if you have this supposedly-ultra-holy army populated by a bunch of women who would rather be doing something else, anything else, and are only paying lip-service to the Ecclesiarchy and the Imperial Creed... what good are they doing for the Imperium? For the Emperor? Their faith is hollow, their piety false, their "armor of faith" filled with so many holes that the Archenemy would have a field day corrupting them, both overtly and subversively.
The Sisters of Battle have no use for someone who, for whatever reason, does not have the strength of faith and spirit to willingly, and gladly, do what it is that they do.
Mmhm. My point is that the Sisters would not allow anyone to join who has not displayed the required amount of zeal and dedication beforehand. It's part of the selection back in the Schola. Anyone who suddenly looses this zeal and wants to leave(!) the AS would surely arise suspicion - I would deem it natural that her Sisters would attempt to "cure" such an individual by any means necessary, if you catch my drift. And they would think they're doing her a favor.
And where would an orphan even want to go? All such an individual has ever known was life isolated behind the convent walls, decades of indoctrination, with the only family being her fellow Sisters and her stern Superior.
That's like a Space Marine who suddenly decides he wants to be a baker now.
I like a lot of the ideas of the Dark Heresy RPG, but I also know that (not unlike some novels) it sometimes takes a great deal of liberty with the canon - and in places where it conflicts with what GW has written I'll simply stick to the studio material. It's the safest route (and prevents me from admitting that PDF troopers apparently receive better equipment than the Sisters Militant ).
Perhaps, but the Sororitas are not Space Marines. They're not as.. hard-wired into their duties as the Astartes are.
Things change, people change. They find that they want to do something else. Have kids, raise families, become a painter, join the Inquisition, build toy Titans, become a Rogue Trader, whatever.
Psienesis wrote:They're not as.. hard-wired into their duties as the Astartes are.
That's where we disagree. Though you may well have the RPG backing up your perception!
But I stick to their GW description: "A penitent organization where constant hardship, deprivation and arduous work are part of an unrelenting devotional regime."
Sounds more grimdark, too. And is the very explanation for why they can evoke Acts of Faith where clerics cannot. Their lifestyle is simply more hardcore.
Sure, but that's not the same thing as being hypno-indoctrinated into the cult of their Chapter.
The acts of faith? It's a talent. Called "Pure Faith". Certain Inquisitors can do it, too. Eisenhorn did it for awhile, until he became tainted.
And, yeah, that's the Sororitas regime. Some people will be really into it, through it displaying their devotion to the Emperor, viewing it as an act of faith, but also as an act of penance for the whole of humanity.
Some people, however, won't... and this is why the Sororitas cannot have these people in its ranks. It doesn't matter how you try to *force* someone to have your beliefs and faith... at best, they're going to start telling you what you want to hear. This, for Chaos, is a foothold. If you force someone to remain in the Sisterhood, by means of threat, physical coercion, whatever... anything other than an honest desire to remain, to take on these arduous tasks as an act of faith and devotion... you breed resentment. Resentment leads to a desire to change conditions, for revenge... and these are the playthings of Tzeentch.
The Sororitas cannot function in this manner. I note that very, very, very few Sisters have ever fallen to Chaos willingly (one, I believe, ever?). This makes them particularly dependable to other militant factions within the Imperium. If this was not the case, however... if it were known that the Sisterhood had a bit of a "problem" with recidivism or outright daemonic influences within their ranks... well, this would call into question a great many things, including the sanctity of the Imperial Cult as a whole, and of the Sororitas specifically.
Psienesis wrote:Sure, but that's not the same thing as being hypno-indoctrinated into the cult of their Chapter.
One might argue that Schola education is pretty much indoctrination in its own right. And when you've never known anything else than life in the convent, how would you even know what's wrong with it? The Sororitas pretty much operate on a "carrot and a stick" policy - the carrot being the solidarity of the Sisterhood. The Adepta Sororitas become a Sister's family, which has a profound effect on how they think and feel. They get broken (in the Schola) and born anew as devoted servants of the Creed. They have a purpose and they have a home and in a way they may even feel loved - leaving the convent would mean to loose everything.
Psienesis wrote:The acts of faith? It's a talent. Called "Pure Faith".
In the RPG. In the actual setting, this is nothing you can buy with a couple XP or as part of a starting package but a personality trait representing a truly outstanding power of will, of devotion and faithfulness, a state of mind that takes many years or the observation of a true miracle to acquire and that brooks no sliver of doubt.
Eisenhorn was a psyker. If he truly pulled off AoF ... well, I've heard many good things about the quality of Abnett's books, but I also heard of certain inconsistencies with studio canon, and this seems like something to add to the list, considering that the Shield of Faith is negating psychic powers.
Of course there are individuals outside the Sororitas who can pull them off, but I'd really not consider "some Inquisitor" to be amongst them. We're talking more along the lines of Sebastian Thor or Confessor Dolan.
Psienesis wrote:Some people, however, won't... and this is why the Sororitas cannot have these people in its ranks.
Which is why only the most faithful get selected to join up in the first place (and they wouldn't allow a bunch of nobles to force their unruly daughter to join them!). The selections in the Schola are likely extremely thorough, and this core requirement may well be one of the reasons for why the Sisterhood is rather small. For someone to want to leave, she must first go through a crisis of faith - and this is where I think the Sisters would intervene instead of just letting her go and (in their eyes) damn her immortal soul. The Order has a place for any of its charges, and if there is a chance that a Sister may not be "saved" by returning her to the fold ... well, there's always the Repentia to ensure her place with the Emperor. The Mistress knows how to get her ready for martyrdom.
Don't underestimate the extreme psychological effects such a regime and its various tools can have on the human mind. Especially given how the Sisters basically grow up in such an environment. The social pressure alone must be immense - who would not want to fit in? Not just to avoid physical punishment, but also to enjoy the aforementioned carrot? Religion and the extreme isolation just make everything even easier. Humans want to fit in - it's in our instincts, and the most atrocious acts of mass violence can be traced back to it.
PS: As per the RAW, Acts of Faith are not available to every Sororitas, only to their veterans. It's a bit tricky to "transfer" this mechanic into the fluff, but they're basically "phase 2" of the Shield of Faith and would probably represent an even deeper devotion than what is common in their own ranks, so there is some room for variation.
@Lynata: A nice pet theory there (comparing the Living Saint to a Waaagh). As for the noble duaghter, it wasn't under the pretence of a boarding school. She was entering for life, and the family didn't want that.
Furthermore, as devoted to the cause and faithful as the sisterhood are, no one is immune from political power-play in 40k. While the Ecclessiarchy is more likely to deal with such things, the Sororitas still find themselves playing a part. It was hinted in Enforcer that the novitiate was kept on, not becuase of any special piety on her part, but becuase they wished to demonstrate that who did or did not enter the ranks of the Convent was the jurisdiction of the Sororitas, regardless of any noble's objections.
@Psienesis: As Lynata said, any sign of lacking in faith would be met with punishment and fasting, rather than exile. It's far more likely that a truly unfaithful Sister would eventually join the ranks of the Repentia (or Arco-Flaggelants) rather than simply be let go.
Oh, yes, indeed. It's incredibly rare for people to leave the Sisterhood (or the Commissariat, for that matter) because all they have ever known their entire lives is service to the Imperium. This is not to say that it *couldn't* happen.
Yes, at the outset, the unwilling are not going to get into the Sororitas. They start out as being the best candidates for the job. But people do change... their faith may be as strong as it always was, but they may feel that the Emperor is better served in another manner not provided by the Sororitas, or they may be answering to what they feel is the Emperor inspiring them to do something else.
A Sister may feel the Emperor is calling her to bring His Light to those who live in Darkness in a far-off sector... or in human worlds lost since the Age of Darkness in the Halo Stars or the Jericho Reach. Her faith remains strong and pure... but the Sisterhood has no Ordos in these regions. She becomes a Rogue Trader in the service of the Ecclesiarchy. Still in service to the God-Emperor, just in a way the Sisterhood, as an organization, is ill-equipped to handle.
There is also the fact to remember that the Sororitas only has the one Ordo Militant, the rest are trained in combat, but it's not their primary role. Perhaps one Hospitaler just gets sick (if you will pardon the pun) of the endless tide of ill and injured on a war-torn Hive World. Maybe a Sister Famulous gets tired of the intrigues of courtly and noble life, absolutely disgusted at the corruption within these ranks of Imperial society. A Sister Dialogous gets tired of reading books deemed heretical or warp-tainted or, if not in such a library, she just gets bored of looking after dry, boring illuminated texts that a pack of servitors has been keeping for the last three thousand years; her role is unnecessary.
Those are just a few broad examples, and the path out for Sisters who become weak in their faith is much less rosy (for obvious reasons), but these paths are there (the Repentia or the Oblatia being only two), without becoming a Fallen Sororitas (in which your only real hope is a Recidivist organization or certain breeds of Radical Inquisitors, really... other than death, of course).
Eisenhorn was a psyker. If he truly pulled off AoF ... well, I've heard many good things about the quality of Abnett's books, but I also heard of certain inconsistencies with studio canon, and this seems like something to add to the list, considering that the Shield of Faith is negating psychic powers.
He was, but being a psyker had nothing to do with Acts of Faith. In the first book, he's holding back daemons and warp-creatures with declarations from the Book of the Imperial Creed , various chants and canticles taught to him to repel the Entity From Beyond, etc. etc. and they work.
Later on, in Book 3, he's... been through some stuff. He's done... some things. His faith is no longer pure, nor is his soul. He gets into a face-down with an unrestrained Cherubael (a daemonhost) and attempts to use the Emperor's Warding against the Darkness.
Cherubael's reaction?
"Just words, Gregor. They're just words..."
And then an insane, and insanely faithful, priest comes running up and bashes the daemonhost on the head with a platinum aquila... and the daemonhost is actually injured... but that's besides the point. Point being, Eisenhorn was, by that point, tainted. His faith was weak.
As far as the RPG is concerned, Sister characters don't start with the nifty bits of the Pure Faith talent, either. All of the actual miracles have Pure Faith as a requirement, but require both higher levels in the career path as well as other requirements (no Corruption beyond a couple of points, [very hard in the game], other attributes or talents, certain career-ranks, and so on). The Pure Faith talent, by itself, is nice, but it doesn't really do anything truly fabulous.
Overall, and this is my own interpretation, having a virtual slave-army of "nuns with guns" is suitably grimdark... but I think the idea of them being there, standing before the Gates of Hell itself, flamer in hand and ready to march through, because they want to be there is so very much more grimdark.
When you remove the element of choice from the equation or, rather, when you place the element of choice in such a way that says "yes, this stuff is all horrible and terrible and the Worst Thing Ever... and these people *chose* to be here to fight it" it makes it even more grimdark.
The IG, for example, doesn't quite draw the same sense of dramatic weight because most of them are drafted... they had no real choice in being on some Death World while fighting the forces of Chaos or Renegades or whatever. Not *quite* as Grimdark as the army of nuns-with-guns who come down to this Death World to fight and kill and die because they *want* to.
As Lynata said, any sign of lacking in faith would be met with punishment and fasting, rather than exile. It's far more likely that a truly unfaithful Sister would eventually join the ranks of the Repentia (or Arco-Flaggelants) rather than simply be let go.
Perhaps, but what does the Sororitas do when the punishments and fasting fail to bring their Sister back to the realms of the uber-faithful? Status as an Arco-Flagellant, or even as a Sister Repentia, requires the person to have committed some sin or heresy... not simply saying "You know what? It's been fun... but this isn't for me anymore. I no longer have what it takes" or "I feel the Emperor has called me to another service, one which I cannot perform while a member of the Sororitas, and here is why I feel this way...".
Exile is not what I'm talking about... that implies a forced expulsion from the ranks of the Sisterhood (which doesn't happen, for reasons you've mentioned). This is not the situation, though. This event, the voluntary leaving of the Sororitas, is more akin to a self-imposed exile, though only loosely, in that the person will not be able to return, but the Sororitas holds no ill-will against the individual. They recognize that what they do is not something that anyone/everyone is capable of doing, and it does them no favors to waste the time and energy required to try to force someone to be what they need. After all, it may come to pass that the lives of dozens or hundreds of Sisters relies on the faith and the skill of a single one of their number... would you want to risk having someone in that position who is not totally, 100% committed?
First up I'll just say the idea of a Sister becoming a Rouge Trader is right out. She'd need to have the funds to get a private ship, and it would probably go to the Ecclessiarchy (the funds, that is) rather than her own personal use.
I completely agree with you on Sisters moving between Ordos, such as a Battle Sister becoming weary of constant warfare and wanting to help the sick of an under-hive as she grows older. But that's it. Nothing I've ever read indicates that Sisters have such autonomy as to leave their Convent at will, or that a "Sorry guys, this just isn't working out anymore" attitude would be seen as acceptable. Remember, we're talking about the Ecclessiarchy, where simply not having enough faith is just as liable to be punished as a faithless act.
Perhaps special leave could be granted if they were still pious, but that would likely involve them being moved to another branch of the Ecclessiarchy. I can't imagine any viable scenario where their 'calling' wouldn't fall under the widespread realms of the many Orders.
First up I'll just say the idea of a Sister becoming a Rouge Trader is right out. She'd need to have the funds to get a private ship, and it would probably go to the Ecclessiarchy (the funds, that is) rather than her own personal use.
It's happened. I'll get her name when I get back home and have my RT book on hand. There's also the possibility, outside a specific character, that the Ecclesiarchy funds the expedition and buys the ship. Not every RT owns his own ship, after all. Or, perhaps, private investors interested in the potentially lucrative markets available on these human worlds will fund the former Sister and buy the ship themselves. Shoot, look at the wealth televangelists amass in our own world... imagine the wealth of the Cardinals and other religious individuals on certain Hive Worlds and the like.
I can't imagine any viable scenario where their 'calling' wouldn't fall under the widespread realms of the many Orders.
Broadly speaking, there's only 4 Ordos in the Sisterhood: Militant, Dialoguous, Famulous and Hospitaler. All of the other "ordos" (Flaming Rose, Burning Heart, Silver Cup, whatever) are a mix of one, some or all of these 4 divisions.
Neither of these really cover being, say, the Ship's Mistress of a Jovian-class Pilgrim Transport.
Psienesis wrote:A Sister may feel the Emperor is calling her to bring His Light to those who live in Darkness in a far-off sector... or in human worlds lost since the Age of Darkness in the Halo Stars or the Jericho Reach. Her faith remains strong and pure... but the Sisterhood has no Ordos in these regions. She becomes a Rogue Trader in the service of the Ecclesiarchy. Still in service to the God-Emperor, just in a way the Sisterhood, as an organization, is ill-equipped to handle.
Such a character would have to have very specific goal in mind. The Sisterhood is active in almost every possible aspect of Imperial life. So she wants to bring His Light to those who live in darkness in a far-off sector? There's the entire Order Sabine just for that. Human worlds lost in the Jericho Reach? I happen to know that several units of the Sisters Militant are part of the Crusade you are referring to.
Psienesis wrote:As far as the RPG is concerned, Sister characters don't start with the nifty bits of the Pure Faith talent, either. All of the actual miracles have Pure Faith as a requirement, but require both higher levels in the career path as well as other requirements (no Corruption beyond a couple of points, [very hard in the game], other attributes or talents, certain career-ranks, and so on). The Pure Faith talent, by itself, is nice, but it doesn't really do anything truly fabulous.
Oh, I know the RPG and the liberties it takes with the canon. The requirements aren't as hard as you seem to recall, though. Corruption was only relevant for Pure Faith in the Inquisitor's Handbook (which had no Faith Talents) - the Blood of Martyr's version (which has Faith Talents) on the other hand doesn't care for Corruption at all. You could keep casting the (imho rather flawed) Faith spells even if your arm has already turned into a tentacle (solely going by the RAW - I suppose many GMs would intervene). Also, the only requirement to gain a Faith Talent is paying the XP cost at the relevant level, where some Faith Talents require another one as prerequisite. That's about it.
Generally, it's a rather poor pay-off for the increased XP cost and certain talents that are missing but should be there on part of the studio fluff. I find myself not wanting to buy any of them for my current character. In retrospect, I think I should have gone for the IH variant (starting out as novice but being more useful and combat-capable later on). :/
Psienesis wrote:Overall, and this is my own interpretation, having a virtual slave-army of "nuns with guns" is suitably grimdark... but I think the idea of them being there, standing before the Gates of Hell itself, flamer in hand and ready to march through, because they want to be there is so very much more grimdark.
Misunderstanding! In my opinion, the real grimdark is not because they are forced to be there, but because they were made to think they want to be there.
I also think the Imperial Guard comes with quite a bit of dramatic weight especially because they had no choice and they lack equipment that is essentially on par with Marine-gear. Guardsmen just "have to make due" or perish, and the ragged units of grizzled veterans have a sense of grimdark of their own because one knows they've been to hell and back, leaving countless corpses behind, including many a friend. In a way, they (the vets) are the ones who are the real heroes of the Imperium, simply because they are only ordinary humans with balls of steel. The underdog that isn't spoiled by genetic engineering or superior arms & armour, their only refuge being the greater autonomy and individual freedom they have compared to the indoctrinated ranks of the Astartes and Sororitas. In a way, it's a nice balance of narrative aspects... part of why I like the setting so much.
Perhaps, but what does the Sororitas do when the punishments and fasting fail to bring their Sister back to the realms of the uber-faithful? Status as an Arco-Flagellant, or even as a Sister Repentia, requires the person to have committed some sin or heresy... not simply saying "You know what? It's been fun... but this isn't for me anymore. I no longer have what it takes" or "I feel the Emperor has called me to another service, one which I cannot perform while a member of the Sororitas, and here is why I feel this way...".
See, I think that such thinking is already a sin, as the individual has started to doubt her place in the Emperor's great plan and the wisdom of her superiors.
So that she may it all times carry out her sacred duties to her Order and Our Lord the Emperor, it is fitting that all Sisters obey their Superior, strictly and in all things. As soon as an order is issued by a Superior, that order should be carried out as if the blessed Dominica herself had commanded it, for it is written - 'Her will be done' - Rule CCXXXIX, the Rule of the Sororitas. Volume XXV
Should any Sister, in her deeds, words or thoughts, in peace or at war in any way commit a sin, she should willingly and immediately make her fault known to her Superior, to make amends with a pure heart. And if she does not usually fail in this matter, let her be given but a week's penance, but if her sin is great let her go apart from the company of her Sisters, so that she may not sit at table with them, nor kneel in prayer, nor fight the Emperor's foes at their side. Let her go all but alone, submitting herself to the will of the almighty God-Emperor of Mankind. Let her don the penitent hood and take up the ceremonial eviscerator, and seek her redemption upon the fold of battle. - Rule CCCLII, the Rule of the Sororitas Volume VI
This is an interesting and enjoyable debate, by the way. Thanks.
We're not, unfortunately, privy to the entirety of what the Ecclesiarchy, in general, or specific Orders, individually, consider sins or heresies. As with so much else in the Imperium, it probably falls to the well-used "Depends on the world you're on" answer.
It may be, in some Orders, that questioning one's faith is a High Heresy... in others, perhaps not. Probably depends on the temperament of the Canoness. Going back to the examples that I used above, a Canoness of a particular disposition may not take the hard-line stance and may see, in the confession of a Sister who believes that she has a calling outside the Sororitas, that the God-Emperor does, indeed, have a plan for this woman, and that plan does not include the Sororitas. Or may see the Hand of the Emperor at work in the idea of a Sister-turned-Rogue-Trader... and may see herself as a facilitator, or hindrance, to this Divine Plan.
First up I'll just say the idea of a Sister becoming a Rouge Trader is right out. She'd need to have the funds to get a private ship, and it would probably go to the Ecclessiarchy (the funds, that is) rather than her own personal use.
It's happened. I'll get her name when I get back home and have my RT book on hand. There's also the possibility, outside a specific character, that the Ecclesiarchy funds the expedition and buys the ship. Not every RT owns his own ship, after all. Or, perhaps, private investors interested in the potentially lucrative markets available on these human worlds will fund the former Sister and buy the ship themselves. Shoot, look at the wealth televangelists amass in our own world... imagine the wealth of the Cardinals and other religious individuals on certain Hive Worlds and the like.
Oh the wealth of the Ecclessiarchy is monumental. They can't own ships though, the Vandire Heresy and Decree Passive saw to that.
I could certainly see a Rouge Trader that works closely with the Ecclesiarchy, perhaps with a Sister Representative or even a contigent of them on board. But I fail to see how an ex-sister would end up Captaining one, short of finding a fortune and deserting from the Convent.
I can't imagine any viable scenario where their 'calling' wouldn't fall under the widespread realms of the many Orders.
Broadly speaking, there's only 4 Ordos in the Sisterhood: Militant, Dialoguous, Famulous and Hospitaler. All of the other "ordos" (Flaming Rose, Burning Heart, Silver Cup, whatever) are a mix of one, some or all of these 4 divisions.
Neither of these really cover being, say, the Ship's Mistress of a Jovian-class Pilgrim Transport.
Actually, Dark Heresy (and the WH codex) both say that there are many, many more Orders than Militant/Dialogous/Famulous/Hospitallier. Enforcer also mentions a few more Ordos, some do cleansing missions for ships that had a rough warp travel, some are concerned with securing or checking the authenicity of relics and sacred artifacts. The Ordos is a lot more extensive than just what is represented by the models.
First up I'll just say the idea of a Sister becoming a Rouge Trader is right out. She'd need to have the funds to get a private ship, and it would probably go to the Ecclessiarchy (the funds, that is) rather than her own personal use.
It's happened. I'll get her name when I get back home and have my RT book on hand. There's also the possibility, outside a specific character, that the Ecclesiarchy funds the expedition and buys the ship. Not every RT owns his own ship, after all. Or, perhaps, private investors interested in the potentially lucrative markets available on these human worlds will fund the former Sister and buy the ship themselves. Shoot, look at the wealth televangelists amass in our own world... imagine the wealth of the Cardinals and other religious individuals on certain Hive Worlds and the like.
Oh the wealth of the Ecclessiarchy is monumental. They can't own ships though, the Vandire Heresy and Decree Passive saw to that.
I could certainly see a Rouge Trader that works closely with the Ecclesiarchy, perhaps with a Sister Representative or even a contigent of them on board. But I fail to see how an ex-sister would end up Captaining one, short of finding a fortune and deserting from the Convent.
When the whole organization is set up to obey the letter of the law rather than the spirit (no Men under Arms, etc) I could totally see some minor order somewhere with deep pockets saying "Hey, as an organization, we can't have any ships. But good Sister Sally here can, she's just a private citizen. I'll arrange for her to receive a large monetary gift on her next birthday, you work on securing her a warrant of trade"
Hmmm, now there's an idea. Actually, it's brilliant (in terms of the decree passive). I don't think it's quite where Psinesis was going with the subject, but I can certainly see it happening. Still, it's not like the Sister is leaving solely on her violition.
Psienesis wrote:We're not, unfortunately, privy to the entirety of what the Ecclesiarchy, in general, or specific Orders, individually, consider sins or heresies. As with so much else in the Imperium, it probably falls to the well-used "Depends on the world you're on" answer.
That'd be more of a case of missing information here. The Adepta Sororitas are a surprisingly uniform organization, compared to the Imperial Guard or the Space Marines:
As the Orders are primarily based together at one of these two sites the Sisterhood as a whole is a far more homogenous organisation than many other institutions of the Imperium, such as the Adeptus Astartes or the Imperial Guard. Though Sisters spend many long hours in solitude or training, they are nonetheless part of a wider organisation than their own Order, and for this reason see themselves as members of the Adepta Sororitas as much as their own Order. Furthermore, it is not uncommon for a Sister to transfer from one Order to another, particularly in the case of a Sister who has become wounded or too old to fight transferring from an Order Militant to one of the non-militant Orders, such as the Orders Famulous or Hospitaller. It has also been known for a senior member of the Adepta Sororitas to leave the organisation entirely for higher office elsewhere, such as within the upper echelons of the Adeptus Terra or the Inquisition – such an event is unheard of within the Adeptus Astartes, and far from common within the Imperial Guard.
It has been observed that the different Adepta Sororitas Orders do not display any great divergence from one another in terms of combat doctrine or organisation, as do many Space Marine Chapters and Imperial Guard regiments. Such differences arise, in the case of the Astartes, from the strong genetic link with the Chapter's Primarch or, in the case of the Imperial Guard, as a result of combat doctrines unique to the culture from which the regiment was raised. The Adepta Sororitas can trace the routes of their doctrines to a single source - the San Leor temple of the Daughters of the Emperor - and their teachings have remained largely unchanged since that time.
Despite the lack of significant divergences between the Orders Militant in terms of organisation and combat doctrine, there is a degree of variance to be found within the teachings of the founders of the Orders, which tends to reflect the outlook of each Founding Saint. For example, the Sisters of the Order of Our Martyred Lady can be said to reflect the vengeful nature of their patron, Saint Katherine, while the Sisters of the Order the Bloody Rose share the brooding, quick to anger nature of Saint Mina.
Also, I've read that the Sisterhood actually does have a fleet of ships (first mentioned in their very first appearance in 40k back in 1E, occasionally mentioned later on) - it's just that they're rapid deployment troop transports and landers for quickly moving around, not battlecruisers to engage in space combat with. Although lightly armed to fend off minor annoyances such as a small pirate, they still require Navy protection for safe passage through a warzone. Apparently, the Navy protested against Sisterhood ships being armed at all (seeing that as an encroachment onto their territory), but had no choice other than to grudgingly accept defensive weaponry due to the Navy not being able/willing to provide the resources necessary for all-time escort coverage.
Occasionally you also have Navy warships seconded to the Ecclesiarchy, though I wouldn't think that the Sisters would "impede" their day-to-day operations by hijacking important positions on the ship. The most I could think of would be some sort of advisor position or liaison. That said, Sisters Famulous regularly work with Navy battlegroups and Missionarius Galaxia exploration fleets to provide linguistic assistance, both for encountering new languages as well as to handle differences in dialect between various groups within the Imperial forces, seeing that larger formations are often drawn together from several worlds, many of whom have their own local tongue and rank-and-file crewmen/guardsmen/workers unable to speak Imperial Gothic. Just to throw in a few more options for Sisters wishing to travel. And that's not even touching the Orders' Militant peacetime task of protecting pilgrim routes!
Interesting, I've never read anywhere that the Sisters actually owned these ships, I thought they were reqisitioned (as the IG often requisitions Valkyries or Vendettas).
Though one Guard regiment to the next can vary widely in its disposition, discipline, equipment and so on, apart from some very, very basic standards. I don't see the Sororitas being terribly different in this manner... there's obviously going to be some "baseline" sins (ie, Consort with the Xeno, Succor given to the Mutant, Acceptance of the Heretic and similar things will all be High Heresy), but whether or not using the fork with the blue handle around Yuletide requires a minor penance or castigation of the flesh is probably down to the individual Canoness at the site.
Also, read the last line of the first paragraph of your quote there:
It has also been known for a senior member of the Adepta Sororitas to leave the organisation entirely for higher office elsewhere, such as within the upper echelons of the Adeptus Terra or the Inquisition – such an event is unheard of within the Adeptus Astartes, and far from common within the Imperial Guard.
I think that pretty much proves the thrust of my debate right there.
I don't think it's quite where Psinesis was going with the subject, but I can certainly see it happening. Still, it's not like the Sister is leaving solely on her violition.
It is, to an extent. With a combination of the examples provided, it makes perfect sense for the Ecclesiarchy to have a Rogue Trader who is a) already a staunchly faithful person and b) owes them... well, everything.
See the quote at the beginning of this post... again, yes, while that only mentions Sisters moving on to "higher callings", it's not out of the realm of feasibility that one such "higher calling", as determined by the Ecclesiarchy, is as the founder of a Rogue Trader dynasty in service to the Imperial Cult.
The Cardinals in question could even, with the proper honeyed words, convince a Sister that she really does want to leave the Order and become a Rogue Trader, because the Church believes that the Emperor has great plans for her, great things in store for her future if she serves the Church in bringing the Light of Him on Terra to the far-flung blah-blah-blah...
That's more or less how I imagined it. It's not that my fabled Sister Sally WANTED to be a rogue trader, she was just picked by the higher ups as a pawn...a means to get their hands on some significant naval power. And in her adventures captaining a mighty starship, she's always accompanied by some Ecclesiarchal "advisors." Finally, as she sadly leaves behind no living heirs, her ship and warrant of trade will be willed to her good friend Sister Jemima. And the cycle repeats ad nauseum.
Emperors Faithful wrote:Interesting, I've never read anywhere that the Sisters actually owned these ships, I thought they were reqisitioned (as the IG often requisitions Valkyries or Vendettas).
Aye, this is one of these things that get rarely touched upon - SoB fluff is few and far between already, and for such details you really have to dig deep. I think they only get mentioned in the 1E rulebook's background section, in the 2E Codex Imperialis, and in a later WD (as well as various novels or computer games, though these sources are of course disputable, given that they are not studio canon).
I really hope that the upcoming Codices - either the WD one or the real book (hoping that the rumours are true) - will include at least a few lines about this aspect of the Sisterhood. It's bad when so many relatively important details of their existence are only found in sources that are so old that their validity may be called in doubt.
That the IG has to rely on the Navy for such things is a result of the split that occurred after the Horus Heresy - just like the Space Marines, the Inquisition or the Mechanicus, the Adepta Sororitas are an organization for themselves. There's the Decree Passive, but not knowing what GW intends for the Sisters' future, it can be interpreted in more than one way. I think the concept of lightly armed SoB transports came up because they wanted to bring the fleets mentioned in earlier fluff "in line" with the limitations that were introduced later on rather than outright retconning anything?
On the other hand, the thought of a warship where all gunners and/or officers are women but the deckhands are men just so the Ecclesiarchy can say they're following the law is somewhat amusing.
Didn't the "Hammer of Thor" receive a WD article? I don't have that particular issue, but I suppose it would say something about the topic. :/
Psienesis wrote:Also, read the last line of the first paragraph of your quote there:
Yes, higher office - within the Imperium. They don't just go, they continue to serve - and I'm pretty sure that such a transfer has to be approved by the Abbess/Prioress (who may grant or reject it depending on what the Sororitas gain from this - political power games are not unknown to the Sisters, especially in the higher ranks).
Psienesis wrote:[...] but whether or not using the fork with the blue handle around Yuletide requires a minor penance or castigation of the flesh is probably down to the individual Canoness at the site.
If you mean the degree of punishment: maybe. But if you mean if it should be punished at all, I'd have to disagree. That's not how it's written, and such differences would create tension with Sisters transferring to and from other locations. Sororitas convents are extremely isolated (so much so that only the Canoness and her most trusted Sisters Superior are even allowed to venture beyond its walls), so they are not really in a position to adopt local culture. It's part of the rift between the Sisterhood and the people they protect.
The Order of the Sacred Rose added a dozen Repressors to their armoury they were gifted from the local Arbites for helping put down a riot on Avignor - this breach of the rules created so much internal debate that the matter was brought before the Holy Synod of Terra itself, where the Prioress ruled that rather than taking the Repressors away from the Sacred Rose again, every Order should be able to get them.
Just to show how serious they take their one great book. I don't think it's impossible that each Order adds one or two lines or that a Canoness may interpret a wording differently, but the uniformity and networking between the convents would keep obvious divergence to a minimum.
Yeah... no one leaves the Imperium. There's nowhere else to go, after all. A Sister leaves the Order and becomes... whatever. An Adept on an Administratum file-world, overseeing the books of planetary tithes for a sector. A Medicalos in a private, up-Hive cosmetic surgery/rejuvenat clinic on some minor Hive World in the Segmentum Solar. An Inquisitor (well, Interrogator first... it's impossible for an outsider to know all the ins and outs of the =I= without training under someone). Planetary governor of some newly-founded colony on what may become, centuries hence, a Shrine World. A housewife on Planet Iowa. A Rogue Trader. A... uh... whatever passes for a pop-star in the Imperium.
There's also going to be a point where, for the Sisters Militant, especially, that battle injury is going to be to the extent that she'll simply not qualify for any role within the Sisterhood. Mayhaps she required (or underwent, regardless) cybernetic resurrection. Mayhaps she's undergone the Rites of Setesh and is a really, really poor-man's version of a Dreadnought (gods below, would I pray for death's merciful release with such a fate...). At this point, you now have a Sister that is, for all intents and purposes, unsuitable for the mission profiles that the Sisterhood takes on. Unable to fight, due to crippling injury (and the possibility that she no longer fits into her power armor because her frame is suspended in some metal monstrosity), unable to provide medical care as a Hospitaler because her augmetic limbs lack the dexterity required, and unable to serve the Dialogous because her new eyes only see in the infra-red and ultra-violet spectrums, she's never going to be chosen to be an ambassador or live-in tutor for a family associated to the Ordo Famulous because, let's face it, full-conversion cyborgs in the Imperium are freaking scary.
I'm certainly not suggesting one is going to drop out of the Girls' School and run off to Necromunda to become an obscura dealer! One *might* go to work with the Arbites, I suppose, in one of several roles I can see a Sister's knowledge and experiences being particularly well-suited.
Then, coming back around to my original point, the Sisterhood is not well-served by forcing everyone that ever gets in to remain forever until they die. Yes, the Progenium girls getting into the Order at a young age are going to be well-qualified for entry... but it's inevitable that a few of these are going to be ones who "just squeaked by" the entrance exams.
Alternately, maybe they had a few... clandestine, extra-curricular activities during their time in the Scholam that does not mesh well with the ascetic lifestyle of the Sisterhood and is unable to shake it. For whatever reason, they want to *live*... fall in love, get married in the Imperial Church, have kids, have a husband, have a life, and so forth and so on.
It doesn't serve the Sisterhood to repress that, because it calls into question other aspects of the Imperial Creed and the dogma and doctrine of the Ecclesiarchy, and may lead to a schism over the practice. The Sister in question, then, becomes something of a martyr (quite possibly literally) for divergent views within the Ecclesiarchy (which are well-documented within the 40K fluff). Far better to let such a one go off and do her own thing and not make a big fuss over it, since she's "obviously not cut out for the life of a Sister of Battle", or whatever the line will be they tell themselves.
Related, again, to this point, is that, when dealing with people like this, unless you completely mind-wipe them, such feelings could be considered a "chink in the armor". Regardless of the penances assigned or punishments inflicted, it may be that the individual remains convinced that they're right, the Sisterhood is wrong, and they really, really want to live a normal human life in the Imperium. Keeping such a person around, (for it is highly unlikely that expressing the desire to follow the teachings of the Church to raise a family in the Emperor's Light will result in a capital sentence... again, such a thing is akin to declaring that portion of the Creed to be an offense) is both bad for morale and, also, tactically unsound. These are the sorts of people that daemons of one stripe or another will be drawn to, because the seed of doubt has already been planted.
Heck, were I a Lord of Change or even Tzeentch itself, I would find such a individual and send one of my legion in the form of some powerfully-built, beautiful winged man in gleaming golden power armor with a leonine mane of blond hair (like... Fabio, in power armor) to bring "the true word of the Emperor" and play upon those doubts. Feed that resentment and anger until it starts another Schism. Sure, it's probable that it won't get to that point but... then again, as Tzeentch, I can all but ensure that it would. I am the Architect of Fate, after all.
Sheesh, could you imagine someone ordered to become a Sister Repentia being in thrall to Tzeentch through one of its tricksy, looks-like-a-divine-angel daemons? Things could go very, very badly for the Sisterhood in such a situation, and not just on that battlefield. All it would take, really, is for fighting to break out amongst the Sisters in view of other Imperial forces (like the IG in that theatre of war) or to attack said Imperial forces while screaming at them to repent, decrying them as heretics and traitors, and so forth and so on, to do unimaginable damage to the morale of the Imperial forces so gathered... not to mention call into question the entire organization in the eyes of many.
As a self-defense mechanism, it only makes sense for the Sisterhood to have an "out" for members who just aren't getting on well in the ranks. Of course, the "out" might be to guide them into service in other Imperial organizations, rather than just cutting them loose entirely... but, even then, being placed in a position of some authority within the Administratum or even within the Inquisition, if not as an Inquisitor, affords the opportunity for a fairly normal life. Sure, the =I= is pretty byzantine and every member of it is possessed with a great degree of paranoia (it's only healthy, after all)... but not everyone in it is an Inquisitor. There's librarians (the non-psyker kind), file clerks, wargear-maintainers, report collators, security forces, drill instructors, heck, instructors of all sorts of stuff the =I= gets up to... coffee-getters, floor-polishers, servo-skull-buffers and a million other tasks... but these people still have social lives and families.
Lastly, and this is more of a meta-gaming point, it just makes for better story, and allows GW more freedom in future tales and products without having to ret-con things to any great degree.
Psienesis wrote:Yeah... no one leaves the Imperium. There's nowhere else to go, after all.
That's not what I meant. A Sister leaving the Adepta Sororitas could only ever go serve in another Imperial organization such as the Inquisition or maybe the Adeptus Terra mentioned in the text. This way, she would continue to serve the Emperor whilst simultaneously also increasing the connections and political pull of the Sisterhood, whose leaders would surely have to approve of any such an exceptional event.
Quitting the Sororitas to open a shop and make money (?!) or even start a family ... that'd be an utterly alien thought to the Sisters - they'd leave their purpose, their family, their faith behind. Apart from the immense resources invested into her training and upbringing, I don't see any reason why a Sister would literally throw her entire life away to commit such a treasonous act, when she doesn't even know what the "world outside" looks like. The few glimpses of daily life the Sororitas catch up whilst on a mission are filled with misery and pointlessness, only strenghtening the conviction that they "have it better" than the common girl on the streets, whose only girl is to survive another day, like some animal. Not every human in the Imperium lives like that, but the Sisters don't really deploy on vacation beaches to chat with the middle classes. Rather, they accompany impoverished pilgrims, put down mutant uprisings, burn heretical cities, witness the corruption and egoism of the nobility, and tend to malnourished sick workers in the mines. Convent life isn't so bad when you follow this perspective.
Psienesis wrote:There's also going to be a point where, for the Sisters Militant, especially, that battle injury is going to be to the extent that she'll simply not qualify for any role within the Sisterhood. Mayhaps she required (or underwent, regardless) cybernetic resurrection.
Cybernetic Resurrection? Apart from the Rite of Setesh being an invention by the RPG* (and one done by the Mechanicus, with which the Sororitas are not really on best terms), the very thought of subjecting a loyal Sister's broken body to such a dire fate is outright heretical. A Sister's greatest hope is martyrdom in the pursuit of a holy cause, as this would ensure her place at the Emperor's side. I really do not think the Sororitas would permit anyone to interfere with such calling. Dead is dead.
And if a Sister is merely crippled beyond the Hospitallers' abilities to mend - which should really not happen all that often (what kind of injury would that be?) - the Sisterhood would still have a place for her. Even if all she can do is watching the novices not slipping up during copy sessions in the scriptorium. Though I guess that someone with valued wisdom and experience would rather be called upon as a tutor, perhaps joining one of the many Scholas to train the next generation of Sororitas.
(*: Ironically, whilst the RPG does deviate a bit from GW canon in a few important areas when it comes to the Adepta Sororitas, even this licensed product outright states that you could leave ... but only as long as you've not yet begun the novitiate. IH p42)
Psienesis wrote:Then, coming back around to my original point, the Sisterhood is not well-served by forcing everyone that ever gets in to remain forever until they die. Yes, the Progenium girls getting into the Order at a young age are going to be well-qualified for entry... but it's inevitable that a few of these are going to be ones who "just squeaked by" the entrance exams.
Why is that inevitable? That's just like saying there absolutely have to be a bunch of rebels in every Marine Chapter. And given the array of punishment, the very culture of raising pain to the position of a virtue, I'm fairly sure that anyone who could get out would do so in the very first days. In the end, a girl joining the Sororitas has sworn a vow, and breaking vows in the Imperium is usually considered unhealthy.
Psienesis wrote:Alternately, maybe they had a few... clandestine, extra-curricular activities during their time in the Scholam that does not mesh well with the ascetic lifestyle of the Sisterhood and is unable to shake it. For whatever reason, they want to *live*... fall in love, get married in the Imperial Church, have kids, have a husband, have a life, and so forth and so on. It doesn't serve the Sisterhood to repress that, because it calls into question other aspects of the Imperial Creed and the dogma and doctrine of the Ecclesiarchy, and may lead to a schism over the practice.
From the Codex:
The lifestyle of the teachers and pupils is strict and puritan. During the Age of Apostasy, most of the Schola Progenium was corrupted and rife with slavery and depravity. Orphans were used as slave labour in factories and mines making goods for the Ecclesiarchy. Particularly promising individuals were sold to Imperial commanders as slaves and servants, and the most attractive became concubines for Imperial Nobles. The most physically adept were sent to be trained as Frateris Templars or Brides of the Emperor, swelling Vandire's armies with the best recruits. The habitats themselves became associated with licentious practices, and their money was put to questionable ends. In direct contrast, each habitat now maintains a strict separation between the two genders and contact between them is restricted purely to religious ceremonies. Only with this purity can the Progena hope to be elevated to a position within the Emperor's domain.
Psienesis wrote:for it is highly unlikely that expressing the desire to follow the teachings of the Church to raise a family in the Emperor's Light will result in a capital sentence
The conviction that the Sororitas and thus, by extension, the Church is "wrong" IS heresy. Full stop.
Psienesis wrote:Lastly, and this is more of a meta-gaming point, it just makes for better story, and allows GW more freedom in future tales and products without having to ret-con things to any great degree.
Ah, but you do retcon things. By a great degree. This level of freedom simply takes away from the core concept of the Sisterhood: of surrendering oneself to the holy cause, of becoming an indoctrinated zealot, of religion being able to brainwash people and turn them into blind slaves of the Imperium's vast machinery.
I do understand the lure of changing aspects of the setting under the conviction that they would "make for a better story" (obviously subject to personal preferences!) - novel authors have done that, too. But in the end, it's not really that different from female Marines or whatever. When virtually every piece of studio material paints the image of "Sista 4 life" and there is not a single example in the fluff of what you claim would be perfectly okay, you just won't be able to convince me. I maintain that a Sister displaying a desire to be freed from the chains of the Ecclesiarchy would be deemed sick and in need of spiritual help, not granted leave to forsake her immortal soul.
@Lynata: Actually, having women man the ships just wouldn't cut it. The Decree Passive expressly denied the Ecclessiarchy its own fleet assests, the Ordos Militant is the Ecclessiarchies way of worming out a 'standing army' by twisting the meaning of thee word "men-under-arms", but it's not possible to do the same with Naval Assests. The wording for ships was not so obscure.
Furtermore IG and the IN is age-old practice since the Horus Heresy, the Decree Passive is much more recent, and much more closely followed, Imperial Law. In fact the Ordo Hereticus was in part created with the goal of regulating the Decree in mind. These two reasons are why I find it difficult to credit such an exemption, even for such minor vessels.
I maintain that a Sister displaying a desire to be freed from the chains of the Ecclesiarchy would be deemed sick and in need of spiritual help, not granted leave to forsake her immortal soul.
Lynata has summed up the argument very well, better than I could at any rate. I agree with the notion that the Ecclesiarchy may have a vested interest in having a group of 'private citizens' which are actually all ex-Sisters, operating as directed. But I simply don't see Sisters being allowed to leave, or even transfer, on their own violition.
Emperors Faithful wrote:@Lynata: Actually, having women man the ships just wouldn't cut it. The Decree Passive expressly denied the Ecclessiarchy its own fleet assests, the Ordos Militant is the Ecclessiarchies way of worming out a 'standing army' by twisting the meaning of thee word "men-under-arms", but it's not possible to do the same with Naval Assests. The wording for ships was not so obscure.
Wasn't the Decree Passive not dealing solely with the "men-under-arms" part? I don't recall any wording regarding the fleets at all - only that Thor had disbanded them as well as the Frateris Templar as part of the reformation, but not that this was part of the actual resolution. As far as I know, the disbanding happened before the Decree Passive was even issued. Basically, that the law was not meant for dealing with the "now" but rather with the future, in that it was supposed to prevent the Ecclesiarchy from becoming dangerous again.
Why would the gap with "men-under-arms" even exist if the Decree Passive would deal in terms like "fleets", meaning why would they use that word and then forego "armies"? It would be quite weird if the Decree would allow the Ecclesiarchy to keep several thousand women armed with Astartes-grade wargear, but forbid them from owning some transports to move them or even just their own missionaries.
Emperors Faithful wrote:Furtermore IG and the IN is age-old practice since the Horus Heresy, the Decree Passive is much more recent, and much more closely followed, Imperial Law.
Mhm. While the Decree is a more recent law, I think the very existence of the Orders Militant is a much more obvious breach than the few exceptions sort-of violating the wedge between Guard and Navy (i.e. certain regiments being allowed to have their own dropships).
Emperors Faithful wrote:In fact the Ordo Hereticus was in part created with the goal of regulating the Decree in mind.
Indeed - however, this is one of the things that I think were the reason behind the Convocation of Nephilim. The Ordo Hereticus growing sceptical of the Ecclesiarchy's military might, but then reaching a consensus by claiming their right to use them as their Chamber Militant, as well as privileged access to the many other services of the Sororitas (medical skills, social connections, research, etc).
I see your points, but the above thoughts and a never truly retconned existence of SoB fleets in the canon make me hold on to what I've read, for the moment. And despite licensed products not being hard canon, I find the usage of SoB ships and aircraft in those 3rd party products I've seen so far rather fitting for the greater picture. Hears hoping that the ambiguity will be resolved with future GW material!
The lifestyle of the teachers and pupils is strict and puritan. During the Age of Apostasy, most of the Schola Progenium was corrupted and rife with slavery and depravity. Orphans were used as slave labour in factories and mines making goods for the Ecclesiarchy. Particularly promising individuals were sold to Imperial commanders as slaves and servants, and the most attractive became concubines for Imperial Nobles. The most physically adept were sent to be trained as Frateris Templars or Brides of the Emperor, swelling Vandire's armies with the best recruits. The habitats themselves became associated with licentious practices, and their money was put to questionable ends. In direct contrast, each habitat now maintains a strict separation between the two genders and contact between them is restricted purely to religious ceremonies. Only with this purity can the Progena hope to be elevated to a position within the Emperor's domain.
We know from other sources that the Schola Progenium is not, however, divided by gender. Much mention is made of Commissars-to-be flirting with Sisters of Battle-to-be. It's, basically, a pretty exclusive military boarding school for children of both genders... and kids go about being kids while receiving the best education the Imperium can provide.
They have gender-divided dormitories, of course, but the image given is that some/many classes are shared between the two. After all, the Schola Progenium also gives rise to Stormtroopers and Commissars, as well as high-ranking Adepts, Clerics and other functionaries.
Why would the gap with "men-under-arms" even exist if the Decree Passive would deal in terms like "fleets", meaning why would they use that word and then forego "armies"? It would be quite weird if the Decree would allow the Ecclesiarchy to keep several thousand women armed with Astartes-grade wargear, but forbid them from owning some transports to move them or even just their own missionaries.
'Cause you can Exterminatus a planet-bound army if they get out of hand.... or simply destroy them from orbit in a slightly-less-permanent (for the planet, not the army) fashion.
Psienesis wrote:We know from other sources that the Schola Progenium is not, however, divided by gender. Much mention is made of Commissars-to-be flirting with Sisters of Battle-to-be.
Novels aren't canon. So sayeth Gav Thorpe, George Mann and Aaron Dembski-Bowden. Though I'm sure more statements can be found somewhere.
Only stuff that comes directly from the studio is actually official. Which is why so many licensed products contradict each other.
Codex material doesn't suddenly get invalidated just because some writer comes along and either doesn't read up on the material he's working with or simply thinks his idea is superior to what GW came up with. Such as Space Marines with multilasers, backflipping Terminators or Sisters of Battle who have apparently nothing better to do than getting drunk and playing games of luck and getting laid, regardless of what 20 years of canon say about them.
And if you insist that novels are canon I can show you one where the Ecclesiarchy has battlecruisers.
'Cause you can Exterminatus a planet-bound army if they get out of hand.... or simply destroy them from orbit in a slightly-less-permanent (for the planet, not the army) fashion.
So you're saying they've thrown in the "no men under arms" just for lulz and not because they actually wanted to keep the Ecclesiarchy from raising a new army?
So you're saying they've thrown in the "no men under arms" just for lulz and not because they actually wanted to keep the Ecclesiarchy from raising a new army?
No...
What it does, however, is prevent the Ecclesiarchy from having possession of a fleet of servitor-piloted vessels, or piloted entirely by women, or Rogue Trader armadas under direct, exclusive contract, or having a roaming fleet of Ecclesiarchy-bought battle-cruisers from where Vandire Mark II floats around, preaching his heresy.
It also means that, if the Ecclesiarch goes about violating the Decree by raising an army, it's not done under the cover of a fleet of ships, loyal to the Ecclesiarchy, flying around the galaxy picking up people from out-system worlds, frontier worlds, and so forth... then depositing them on some distant, overlooked Shrine World that's been converted into a training area/staging ground now defended by however large a fleet they've managed to build (the Ecclesiarchy is rich... that could be a whole lotta ships!).
Thus, it confines the Ecclesiarchy to those worlds it's already on, and limits the worlds they can easily expand to quickly, since they're required to use Naval ships under contract, who have the means to inform other authorities, "Hey, uh, Inquisitor? These preachers here want a ride to Fortress Planet Lostinspace... and they have 50,000 guys with guns with them. Uh, should we give them a ride?". The Ecclesiarchy is obviously not going to attempt to violate the Decree on planets they know are being watched, it's too easily stopped at early stages.
Vandire Mark 2 might rise up on Planet Uarehere, but without a fleet of mention to defend it... he's not much of a threat. At worst, they glass the place from orbit and roll on.
I've just read up on some details in the Codices, and the 2E 'dex actually does go into some more detail:
"Sebastian Thor was ordered to disband the Frateris Templar of Vandire and any armies and fleets assembled by other members of the Ministorum while away from Terra. This was duly done, but for one exception. Seeing that some military force would be needed, and not wishing the Ecclesiarchy to be totally subservient to the will of the Adeptus Terra and the Imperial Guard, Sebastian Thor kept the one army he was allowed under the Decree Passive."
I've misremembered a couple bits in earlier posts, but there are some important things to note in that section:
it specifically omits Ministorum fleets -at- Terra (where the SoB were based)
it notes that the Sisters were an exception to this (meaning that they would be allowed to keep any ships they would have already had)
it is actually -intended- that the SoB retain a degree of independence from other Imperial organizations, such as the Navy
It is also worth noting that this is the very same edition that still made mention of Sororitas fleets in GW canon (-> Codex Imperialis).
Furthermore, there's only 30.000 SoB - a new Vandire could never stage a coup with such an army. The Sisters Militant are a mix between internal police and external elite strike team. For any larger campaign they still require support from a real army with more bodies to spare (read, the IG), both for battles as well as an occupation force.
The Frateris Militia and the various Ecclesiarchal Cardinals' local support is much more of a problem - see the Siege of Vraks. Making Sororitas operations depend on the goodwill of the people they are supposed to police doesn't sound like a smart move, and Thor knew this.
I'm inclined to agree that any SoB fleet - should it truly exist - should not outclass the Navy, though, hence why I'm leaning to the "lightly armed rapid deployment transports". Really hoping the upcoming Codices will deal with this a little; I just love the idea of deepstriking Seraphim jumping out of a Sisterhood Valkyrie.
Emperors Faithful wrote:@Lynata: Actually, having women man the ships just wouldn't cut it. The Decree Passive expressly denied the Ecclessiarchy its own fleet assests, the Ordos Militant is the Ecclessiarchies way of worming out a 'standing army' by twisting the meaning of thee word "men-under-arms", but it's not possible to do the same with Naval Assests. The wording for ships was not so obscure.
Wasn't the Decree Passive not dealing solely with the "men-under-arms" part? I don't recall any wording regarding the fleets at all - only that Thor had disbanded them as well as the Frateris Templar as part of the reformation, but not that this was part of the actual resolution. As far as I know, the disbanding happened before the Decree Passive was even issued. Basically, that the law was not meant for dealing with the "now" but rather with the future, in that it was supposed to prevent the Ecclesiarchy from becoming dangerous again.
I don't have the current Witch Hunter Codex on me (sold it to get Vostroyans! ) but I was sure that the Ecclessiarchy was forbidden from having their own fleet in the wake of the Vandire Heresy.
Why would the gap with "men-under-arms" even exist if the Decree Passive would deal in terms like "fleets", meaning why would they use that word and then forego "armies"? It would be quite weird if the Decree would allow the Ecclesiarchy to keep several thousand women armed with Astartes-grade wargear, but forbid them from owning some transports to move them or even just their own missionaries.
Two reasons why men-under-arms was probably used in lieu of army could be:
1) The Imperial Language is different from English, and High Gothic which the Decree would almost certainly be written in) could be way more complex or removed from our idea of sensible language than we could know.
2) Then there would 'interpretations' of the word army. Does the Cardinal's 'extended bodyguard' slip through the definition? Technically, Frateris Militia go against the meaning of the Decree Passive, and any attempt to keep a 'standing Frateris Militia' would be a serious breach of the Decree.
Emperors Faithful wrote:Furtermore IG and the IN is age-old practice since the Horus Heresy, the Decree Passive is much more recent, and much more closely followed, Imperial Law.
Mhm. While the Decree is a more recent law, I think the very existence of the Orders Militant is a much more obvious breach than the few exceptions sort-of violating the wedge between Guard and Navy (i.e. certain regiments being allowed to have their own dropships).
Obviously it's a breach of the Decree Passive, that the Orders Militant actually exist at all is only due to a very selective interpretation of the Decree Passive.
Emperors Faithful wrote:In fact the Ordo Hereticus was in part created with the goal of regulating the Decree in mind.
Indeed - however, this is one of the things that I think were the reason behind the Convocation of Nephilim. The Ordo Hereticus growing sceptical of the Ecclesiarchy's military might, but then reaching a consensus by claiming their right to use them as their Chamber Militant, as well as privileged access to the many other services of the Sororitas (medical skills, social connections, research, etc).
Indeed, it stopped the Sisters from being just another tool of the Ecclessiarchy and actually (in a sense) made their own troops their custodians. I think, if an High-ranking Ecclesiarchy official and a Hereticus Inquisitor clash the sisters are bound to follow the Inquisitor. It's a neat counter-action to the twisting of the Decree Passive. While the Ecclessiarch command warriors that are 100% loyal to the Emperor (and can therefore be trusted in all outside conflicts, and most internal ones) they aren't blindly loyal to the Ecclessiarchy itself, which forces the Ecclessiarchy to tread carefully. Acting too forward could mean bringing their own troops weapons down against them.
I see your points, but the above thoughts and a never truly retconned existence of SoB fleets in the canon make me hold on to what I've read, for the moment. And despite licensed products not being hard canon, I find the usage of SoB ships and aircraft in those 3rd party products I've seen so far rather fitting for the greater picture. Hears hoping that the ambiguity will be resolved with future GW material!
You're right, it is ambiguous, but how I would generally interpret the fluff would mean the sisters don't have any sort of naval capabilities. That said, the moment GW thinks a Sisters Flyer would sell, that'll change.
Lynata wrote:I've just read up on some details in the Codices, and the 2E 'dex actually does go into some more detail:
"Sebastian Thor was ordered to disband the Frateris Templar of Vandire and any armies and fleets assembled by other members of the Ministorum while away from Terra. This was duly done, but for one exception. Seeing that some military force would be needed, and not wishing the Ecclesiarchy to be totally subservient to the will of the Adeptus Terra and the Imperial Guard, Sebastian Thor kept the one army he was allowed under the Decree Passive."
I've misremembered a couple bits in earlier posts, but there are some important things to note in that section:
This has been retconned to some degree by the more recent dex, which makes it pretty clear that the continued existence of the Sisters Militant was only due to twisting the word 'men-under-arms', clearly going against the spirit of the Decree but not the literal word (The 2nd Codex was much cooler in terms of fluff though).
it specifically omits Ministorum fleets -at- Terra (where the SoB were based)
it notes that the Sisters were an exception to this (meaning that they would be allowed to keep any ships they would have already had)
it is actually -intended- that the SoB retain a degree of independence from other Imperial organizations, such as the Navy
It is also worth noting that this is the very same edition that still made mention of Sororitas fleets in GW canon (-> Codex Imperialis).
Further pieces of GW canon would lead me to believe that Sororitas Fleets were disbanded, or at least disarmed and redistibuted. Certainly no mention of what they consist of is actually made. And the only BL source that I've read about Sisters (Faith and Fire) had the Celestians travelling aboard a ship under the purview of the Ecclessiarchy, but not (in total legality) actually in possession of it. It ws confusing, and in general a poor read, and didn't really explain much at all.
Furthermore, there's only 30.000 SoB - a new Vandire could never stage a coup with such an army. The Sisters Militant are a mix between internal police and external elite strike team. For any larger campaign they still require support from a real army with more bodies to spare (read, the IG), both for battles as well as an occupation force.
The Frateris Militia and the various Ecclesiarchal Cardinals' local support is much more of a problem - see the Siege of Vraks. Making Sororitas operations depend on the goodwill of the people they are supposed to police doesn't sound like a smart move, and Thor knew this.
I don't recall any actual number of SoB in fluff, even in rough estimates.
I'd certainly be surprised if it was only 30.000 though, as they appeared more common than Space Marines at least.
I'm inclined to agree that any SoB fleet - should it truly exist - should not outclass the Navy, though, hence why I'm leaning to the "lightly armed rapid deployment transports". Really hoping the upcoming Codices will deal with this a little; I just love the idea of deepstriking Seraphim jumping out of a Sisterhood Valkyrie.
Oh me too, and with the way Flyers seem to be becoming much more popular it'll probably happen. In current fluff though I don't see sistes having any naval space assests at all. Like the Imperial Guard, they seem to be completely dependant (if much more influental) on the Imperial Navy for that sort of thing.
Emperors Faithful wrote:Two reasons why men-under-arms was probably used in lieu of army could be:
1) The Imperial Language is different from English, and High Gothic which the Decree would almost certainly be written in) could be way more complex or removed from our idea of sensible language than we could know.
2) Then there would 'interpretations' of the word army. Does the Cardinal's 'extended bodyguard' slip through the definition? Technically, Frateris Militia go against the meaning of the Decree Passive, and any attempt to keep a 'standing Frateris Militia' would be a serious breach of the Decree.
All true. But the same could apply to the word "fleets".
Emperors Faithful wrote:This has been retconned to some degree by the more recent dex, which makes it pretty clear that the continued existence of the Sisters Militant was only due to twisting the word 'men-under-arms', clearly going against the spirit of the Decree but not the literal word (The 2nd Codex was much cooler in terms of fluff though).
I agree about the 2E 'dex being cooler (it also had more fluff), but the "no men under arms" part was in there, too. No retcon on that part.
Emperors Faithful wrote:Further pieces of GW canon would lead me to believe that Sororitas Fleets were disbanded, or at least disarmed and redistibuted. Certainly no mention of what they consist of is actually made. And the only BL source that I've read about Sisters (Faith and Fire) had the Celestians travelling aboard a ship under the purview of the Ecclessiarchy, but not (in total legality) actually in possession of it. It ws confusing, and in general a poor read, and didn't really explain much at all.
BL novels aren't canon, they are - as per the own words of George Mann, GW's Head of Publishing, the respective "author's interpretation". This is in line with what Gav Thorpe said (GW occasionally adopting BL stuff they like but simply not caring about the rest). Aaron Dembski-Bowden has even written a blog article about that subject here.
Not that Faith & Fire would throw up any problems in that regard, though. Occasionally taking on the services of the Navy does not exclude the existence of a dedicated SoB fleet - it would simply hint at those ships not being as numerous that they could dispatch one just to transport 4 (!) SoB to do what was essentially a favour for the local Bishop.
And I happen to like Faith & Fire. Granted, partially that may be due to the lack of alternatives in terms of Sisters novels (), but I thought it was pretty well done and in line with the general "look and feel" of the setting. I also liked some of the new ideas the author has introduced, such as the hidden martyr blade in the chaplet ecclesiasticus.
Emperors Faithful wrote:I don't recall any actual number of SoB in fluff, even in rough estimates. I'd certainly be surprised if it was only 30.000 though, as they appeared more common than Space Marines at least.
The 2E 'dex contained a rather detailed list:
When Sebastian Thor ascended to the position of Ecclesiarchy there were roughly 4,000 Daughters of the Emperor under his command. Upon founding the Adepta Sororitas, these warriors were split between the Convents of Ophelia VII and Terra (the Convent Sanctorum and Convent Prioris respectively). With recruits passing through the hands of’ the Schola Progenium once again, the Adepta Sororitas' ranks soon grew to over 10,000 fighters and the Ecclesiarch succeeding Thor (Ecclesiarch Alexis XXII) split each of the Convents into two Orders each, founding the Orders Militant of the Ebon Chalice, Valorous Heart, Fiery Heart and the Argent Shroud.
Two and a half thousand years later, two more Orders were created by Deacis VI (the Orders of the Bloody Rose and Sacred Rose) and the Convent buildings were extended to accommodate almost 15,000 warriors each. In recent years, the number of the Militant Orders' members has declined slightly and each Order now number between 3,000 and 4,000 Battle Sisters, of which perhaps 500-750 will be trained as Seraphim.These warriors are spread throughout the galaxy in various battle zones and on extended tours of duty. The size of an Order waxes and wanes irregularly, depending on the quality of recruits availble and battle losses. On occasion an Order may number no more than a few hundred warriors, all fighting the enemies of the Emperor while at other times it may reach a peak of six or seven thousand warriors, with much of the Order fighting in distant wars but still leaving a reserve of several thousand Battle Sisters and Seraphim that can be despatched if needed.
Tl;dr: 18.000-24.000 SoB in the 6 Orders Maioris, 12.000-6.000 in the Minor Orders, with the official headquarters being Ophelia VII and Terra but lots of smaller semi-temporary convents scattered throughout the galaxy.
I suppose it is feasible - apart from the sheer price of "the best equipment the Mechanicus can produce" (WD) even for the Ecclesiarchy (which doesn't exactly get a discount with the AdMech ) the requirements of becoming a SoB are incredibly high (keeping in mind that the vast majority of Schola Progenium orphans ends up in the Administratum, with still others joining the Assassinorum, the Navy, the Inquisition, the clergy, ...), this would also be the perfect explanation of why the Sisters of Battle don't show up very often in the fluff.
Also keep in mind that canon notes that the Order of the Martyred Lady was "barely able to field three companies of Battle Sisters" after the Third War of Armageddon - which makes no sense unless they were really small to begin with.
The size of a Sororitas Order being only between a few hundred and a few thousand was also recently "renewed" in the small fluff blurb they got in the 5E Rulebook.
Emperors Faithful wrote:Two reasons why men-under-arms was probably used in lieu of army could be:
1) The Imperial Language is different from English, and High Gothic which the Decree would almost certainly be written in) could be way more complex or removed from our idea of sensible language than we could know.
2) Then there would 'interpretations' of the word army. Does the Cardinal's 'extended bodyguard' slip through the definition? Technically, Frateris Militia go against the meaning of the Decree Passive, and any attempt to keep a 'standing Frateris Militia' would be a serious breach of the Decree.
All true. But the same could apply to the word "fleets".
Now, I was sure fleets were adressed seperately. But, like I said, I don't have the WH codex on me to prove you for the fluff-trickster and cnon-scoundrel you are! /jks
Emperors Faithful wrote:This has been retconned to some degree by the more recent dex, which makes it pretty clear that the continued existence of the Sisters Militant was only due to twisting the word 'men-under-arms', clearly going against the spirit of the Decree but not the literal word (The 2nd Codex was much cooler in terms of fluff though).
I agree about the 2E 'dex being cooler (it also had more fluff), but the "no men under arms" part was in there, too. No retcon on that part.
Emperors Faithful wrote:Further pieces of GW canon would lead me to believe that Sororitas Fleets were disbanded, or at least disarmed and redistibuted. Certainly no mention of what they consist of is actually made. And the only BL source that I've read about Sisters (Faith and Fire) had the Celestians travelling aboard a ship under the purview of the Ecclessiarchy, but not (in total legality) actually in possession of it. It ws confusing, and in general a poor read, and didn't really explain much at all.
BL novels aren't canon, they are - as per the own words of George Mann, GW's Head of Publishing, the respective "author's interpretation". This is in line with what Gav Thorpe said (GW occasionally adopting BL stuff they like but simply not caring about the rest). Aaron Dembski-Bowden has even written a blog article about that subject here.
Not that Faith & Fire would throw up any problems in that regard, though. Occasionally taking on the services of the Navy does not exclude the existence of a dedicated SoB fleet - it would simply hint at those ships not being as numerous that they could dispatch one just to transport 4 (!) SoB to do what was essentially a favour for the local Bishop.
I agree that relying on the navy doesn't necessarily exclude them from having a fleet themselves but, Post-Vandire Heresy, I can't recall any mention of Sororitas Fleets. If you can bring one up, I'll happily concede the argument to you.
And I happen to like Faith & Fire. Granted, partially that may be due to the lack of alternatives in terms of Sisters novels (), but I thought it was pretty well done and in line with the general "look and feel" of the setting. I also liked some of the new ideas the author has introduced, such as the hidden martyr blade in the chaplet ecclesiasticus.
I only read it as it was the only real novel on Sisters. My favourite bit would be the purge of the rebel city, but honestly I thought the rest was sub-standard even for BL works.
Spoiler:
I mean, come on, the climax? By that point I was so 'WTF?' I just had to go with it.
Emperors Faithful wrote:I don't recall any actual number of SoB in fluff, even in rough estimates. I'd certainly be surprised if it was only 30.000 though, as they appeared more common than Space Marines at least.
The 2E 'dex contained a rather detailed list:
When Sebastian Thor ascended to the position of Ecclesiarchy there were roughly 4,000 Daughters of the Emperor under his command. Upon founding the Adepta Sororitas, these warriors were split between the Convents of Ophelia VII and Terra (the Convent Sanctorum and Convent Prioris respectively). With recruits passing through the hands of’ the Schola Progenium once again, the Adepta Sororitas' ranks soon grew to over 10,000 fighters and the Ecclesiarch succeeding Thor (Ecclesiarch Alexis XXII) split each of the Convents into two Orders each, founding the Orders Militant of the Ebon Chalice, Valorous Heart, Fiery Heart and the Argent Shroud.
Two and a half thousand years later, two more Orders were created by Deacis VI (the Orders of the Bloody Rose and Sacred Rose) and the Convent buildings were extended to accommodate almost 15,000 warriors each. In recent years, the number of the Militant Orders' members has declined slightly and each Order now number between 3,000 and 4,000 Battle Sisters, of which perhaps 500-750 will be trained as Seraphim.These warriors are spread throughout the galaxy in various battle zones and on extended tours of duty. The size of an Order waxes and wanes irregularly, depending on the quality of recruits availble and battle losses. On occasion an Order may number no more than a few hundred warriors, all fighting the enemies of the Emperor while at other times it may reach a peak of six or seven thousand warriors, with much of the Order fighting in distant wars but still leaving a reserve of several thousand Battle Sisters and Seraphim that can be despatched if needed.
Tl;dr: 18.000-24.000 SoB in the 6 Orders Maioris, 12.000-6.000 in the Minor Orders, with the official headquarters being Ophelia VII and Terra but lots of smaller semi-temporary convents scattered throughout the galaxy.
I suppose it is feasible - apart from the sheer price of "the best equipment the Mechanicus can produce" (WD) even for the Ecclesiarchy (which doesn't exactly get a discount with the AdMech ) the requirements of becoming a SoB are incredibly high (keeping in mind that the vast majority of Schola Progenium orphans ends up in the Administratum, with still others joining the Assassinorum, the Navy, the Inquisition, the clergy, ...), this would also be the perfect explanation of why the Sisters of Battle don't show up very often in the fluff.
Also keep in mind that canon notes that the Order of the Martyred Lady was "barely able to field three companies of Battle Sisters" after the Third War of Armageddon - which makes no sense unless they were really small to begin with.
The size of a Sororitas Order being only between a few hundred and a few thousand was also recently "renewed" in the small fluff blurb they got in the 5E Rulebook.
Ah, but there are a lot more Minor Orders, and over time I can only expect the number to have increased. Sisters tend to be represented more than Space Marines in the fluff (unless the novel actually has Space Marines as the protaganists). Everywhere the Ecclessiarchy is, which is pretty much the entirety of the Imperium, the Orders Militant are likely to have some sort of presence. Even if that number was just a dozen sisters, on average, for every couple of planets they'd quickly outnumber Space Marines.
Emperors Faithful wrote:I agree that relying on the navy doesn't necessarily exclude them from having a fleet themselves but, Post-Vandire Heresy, I can't recall any mention of Sororitas Fleets. If you can bring one up, I'll happily concede the argument to you.
Depends on how much you value older fluff. I can cite things from both 1E and 2E, but lack anything solid from later eras. :(
The Sisterhood is divided into two Convents; the Convent Prioris based within the Ecclesiarchal Palace on Terra and the Convent Sanctorum on Ophelia IV in the Segmentum Tempestus. Each Convent has its own fleets and conducts its own affairs in much the same way as the Space Marine Chapters. The head of each Convent is known as the Prioress, and within each Convent are a number of different Orders, each headed by a Cannoness. She is assisted by Celestian Superiors and Sister Superiors.
+
Though the Ministorum maintains no warships or regimental transports, relying on the Imperial Navy for protection from space-borne foes, each Order operates a fleet of transport craft, ranging from single-detachment troopships to high speed corvettes. In lieu of the capability to engage in full-scale fleet actions, the Sororitas' ships are engineered for maximum speed through the warp, allowing the Orders to deploy their troops anywhere in the Imperium. The longest deployment distance, all other factors being equal, is the Eastern Fringe beyond Kar Duniash and Okassis, which the major Orders can reach in eight weeks. However, the small size and purely defensive weaponry of these craft require the Sisterhood to seek assistance from the Imperial Navy in cases where large-scale deployment is required, or when troopships are likely to come under attack from hostile forces. The Imperial Navy has officially protested Sororitas transports carrying weapons at all in an effort to force the disbanding of the transport fleets and make the Ministorum entirely reliant on the Navy for transport. However, the Navy is unwilling to propose outlawing weaponry on all non-Navy vessels, as this would increase the need for Navy vessels to protect civilian freighters to unsustainable levels.
Emperors Faithful wrote:I only read it as it was the only real novel on Sisters. My favourite bit would be the purge of the rebel city, but honestly I thought the rest was sub-standard even for BL works.
Spoiler:
I mean, come on, the climax? By that point I was so 'WTF?' I just had to go with it.
The latter seems to be a problem with most BL novels, I guess - though I actually think this could happen in GW canon as well (they've done crazier stuff!). But I agree about the purge, that was my favorite bit as well - perfect representation of the Sisters' zeal. And creeeepy @ Repentia.
Emperors Faithful wrote:Ah, but there are a lot more Minor Orders, and over time I can only expect the number to have increased.
The numbers are for the current status of the SoB, and note that the minor Orders are included in the 30k (as the major ones alone can't reach that high even if you add up their peak numbers). In short, it seems as if the two Convents are intended to be able to house the entirety of the Sisters Militant at all times, even though they rarely (if ever) get together these days. That said, I suppose each Order simply has its own facilities in there.
Emperors Faithful wrote:Sisters tend to be represented more than Space Marines in the fluff (unless the novel actually has Space Marines as the protaganists). Everywhere the Ecclessiarchy is, which is pretty much the entirety of the Imperium, the Orders Militant are likely to have some sort of presence. Even if that number was just a dozen sisters, on average, for every couple of planets they'd quickly outnumber Space Marines.
Can't agree with that. The 2E 'dex gave us explicit numbers, and their duties have not changed since then (sans occasional inquisitional assistance, though I would suppose this would have already happened back then, just not as part of a formal alliance). Sisters are not everywhere where the Ecclesiarchy is, they are only at major sites - which leaves a lot open to interpretation, as that could be anything up to meaning only a single squad guarding the doors of a single cathedral in an entire sector (the head diocese).
The very absence of Sisters in the fluff (apart from Armageddon and the Pyrus Reach, where do they even show up?), likely primarily a result of GW's neglect of this faction, can be perfectly explained using these numbers. Also note that we have yet to see any minor Order - it's always one of the Big Six, and even though they are bigger it's still only a few thousand, tops, for the entire galaxy. And that's recent 5E fluff.
I actually like it. Makes them appear far more elite than if there were billions of them, IG-style.
Though Storm Troopers are even more rare with their 20.000 (IG Codex).
Lynata- where did you find that bit in italics regarding Sisterhood troop ships?
In terms of Battlefleet Gothic, which ships would be appropriate for these very fast, yet offensively weak ships?
I'm not sure if you consider it fluff, one of the Orders Militant Minoris was mentioned in Imperial Armor II, 'Order of the Blue Robe'- one of the pictured Exorcists is painted with their color scheme.
Emperors Faithful wrote:I agree that relying on the navy doesn't necessarily exclude them from having a fleet themselves but, Post-Vandire Heresy, I can't recall any mention of Sororitas Fleets. If you can bring one up, I'll happily concede the argument to you.
Depends on how much you value older fluff. I can cite things from both 1E and 2E, but lack anything solid from later eras. :(
The Sisterhood is divided into two Convents; the Convent Prioris based within the Ecclesiarchal Palace on Terra and the Convent Sanctorum on Ophelia IV in the Segmentum Tempestus. Each Convent has its own fleets and conducts its own affairs in much the same way as the Space Marine Chapters. The head of each Convent is known as the Prioress, and within each Convent are a number of different Orders, each headed by a Cannoness. She is assisted by Celestian Superiors and Sister Superiors.
+
Though the Ministorum maintains no warships or regimental transports, relying on the Imperial Navy for protection from space-borne foes, each Order operates a fleet of transport craft, ranging from single-detachment troopships to high speed corvettes. In lieu of the capability to engage in full-scale fleet actions, the Sororitas' ships are engineered for maximum speed through the warp, allowing the Orders to deploy their troops anywhere in the Imperium. The longest deployment distance, all other factors being equal, is the Eastern Fringe beyond Kar Duniash and Okassis, which the major Orders can reach in eight weeks. However, the small size and purely defensive weaponry of these craft require the Sisterhood to seek assistance from the Imperial Navy in cases where large-scale deployment is required, or when troopships are likely to come under attack from hostile forces. The Imperial Navy has officially protested Sororitas transports carrying weapons at all in an effort to force the disbanding of the transport fleets and make the Ministorum entirely reliant on the Navy for transport. However, the Navy is unwilling to propose outlawing weaponry on all non-Navy vessels, as this would increase the need for Navy vessels to protect civilian freighters to unsustainable levels.
Okay then, since no recent fluff explicitly retcons this you've convinced me that sisters do indeed have ships of their own (even if they are lightly or even un-armed).
Emperors Faithful wrote:I only read it as it was the only real novel on Sisters. My favourite bit would be the purge of the rebel city, but honestly I thought the rest was sub-standard even for BL works.
Spoiler:
I mean, come on, the climax? By that point I was so 'WTF?' I just had to go with it.
The latter seems to be a problem with most BL novels, I guess - though I actually think this could happen in GW canon as well (they've done crazier stuff!). But I agree about the purge, that was my favorite bit as well - perfect representation of the Sisters' zeal. And creeeepy @ Repentia.
Really, it was fine up until:
They were captured in the mountain/fortress/base/thingy, from there on a sharp decline in quality. I completely understand BL books where the fate of a world, a system or even a sector hangs in the balance, but the entire Imperium?[/spoiler]
Emperors Faithful wrote:Ah, but there are a lot more Minor Orders, and over time I can only expect the number to have increased.
The numbers are for the current status of the SoB, and note that the minor Orders are included in the 30k (as the major ones alone can't reach that high even if you add up their peak numbers). In short, it seems as if the two Convents are intended to be able to house the entirety of the Sisters Militant at all times, even though they rarely (if ever) get together these days. That said, I suppose each Order simply has its own facilities in there.
I thought the numbers were based two-and-a-half millenia after the Vandire Heresy (which leaves another two millenia at least for further expansion.
Emperors Faithful wrote:Sisters tend to be represented more than Space Marines in the fluff (unless the novel actually has Space Marines as the protaganists). Everywhere the Ecclessiarchy is, which is pretty much the entirety of the Imperium, the Orders Militant are likely to have some sort of presence. Even if that number was just a dozen sisters, on average, for every couple of planets they'd quickly outnumber Space Marines.
Can't agree with that. The 2E 'dex gave us explicit numbers, and their duties have not changed since then (sans occasional inquisitional assistance, though I would suppose this would have already happened back then, just not as part of a formal alliance). Sisters are not everywhere where the Ecclesiarchy is, they are only at major sites - which leaves a lot open to interpretation, as that could be anything up to meaning only a single squad guarding the doors of a single cathedral in an entire sector (the head diocese).
Enforcer, which I'll admit focussed more on Arbites, had a Sister convent on a Hive World that was able to police the populace (to the extent that in one city Arbites and SoB numbers were very similar). Then again, while I would be surprised that a Hive City wouldn't have some sort of Sister presence, apart from Shrine and Hive worlds any Ordos Militant presence will be minimal.
The very absence of Sisters in the fluff (apart from Armageddon and the Pyrus Reach, where do they even show up?), likely primarily a result of GW's neglect of this faction, can be perfectly explained using these numbers. Also note that we have yet to see any minor Order - it's always one of the Big Six, and even though they are bigger it's still only a few thousand, tops, for the entire galaxy. And that's recent 5E fluff.
Enforcer has a minor Order, actually several, that come up. But fair enough, I suppose aren't as widespread as I thought they were.
I actually like it. Makes them appear far more elite than if there were billions of them, IG-style.
Though Storm Troopers are even more rare with their 20.000 (IG Codex).
Really? Where is that in the IG codex? I've read through the Stromtrooper entry and either it's not there or I've overlooked it.
Dr Mathias wrote:Lynata- where did you find that bit in italics regarding Sisterhood troop ships?
The first one is from the Codex Imperialis, the second bit ... uhh, I think that was an old WD article, but I can't give you an issue number. :I
I've got most of my fluff saved in a huge textfile for easy access and quote-ability - it circulated in the ancient SoB yahoo! group, and over the years I was able to track down the actual sources for the majority of what was cited there, but this one is one of the two snippets whose source remains elusive. I'm just not discarding it because (aside from it being written in "studio style" and fitting neatly into what else we know) said file has proven to be very reliable, even in other areas where many fans would believe otherwise (such as GW having specified the Schola Progenium as being strictly gender-divided, as opposed to what that one novel wants to make you believe).
I also just remembered that the SoB actually have their own "Dominica-pattern" drop-pods (mentioned in Citadel Journal in an article written by Andy Hoare).
Dr Mathias wrote:In terms of Battlefleet Gothic, which ships would be appropriate for these very fast, yet offensively weak ships?
Phew, tricky one. Taking a look at the BFG lists, the "Imperial Transport" or the "Armed Freighter" sound like a good start. They appear slow-moving, but from my understanding the number is just sublight speed and not for warp travel... No idea about those corvettes, though. Perhaps taking an Escort hull such as the Cobra, then replacing its weapons with that of a Transport and reducing the point cost?
I've read that Jes Goodwyn supposedly designed some Ecclesiarchy ships and you can see pictures in his "Gothic and Eldritch" sketchbook, but I've not been able to get a glimpse of them myself yet. If anyone around here has that out-of-print book I'd greatly appreciate a scan of that page!
Dr Mathias wrote:I'm not sure if you consider it fluff, one of the Orders Militant Minoris was mentioned in Imperial Armor II, 'Order of the Blue Robe'- one of the pictured Exorcists is painted with their color scheme.
Huh, I did not know that! Thanks for the hint - though weren't all Orders Militant supposed to only use the colours black, white and red in variations as per the Codex? :S
Emperors Faithful wrote:but the entire Imperium?
Well, even though that was the villain's plan, I don't think he'd actually have succeeded. The characters merely act this way because they possess limited knowledge - the villain is a madman and the Sisters are zealots, plus neither party knows about how tight security in the Sol system really is. Thus they all see it as a greater crisis than it truly is. I thought it was okay - and I could have truly believed that the Emperor would have built such machines ... >_>
But yeah, of course it remains a matter of preferences. Novels aren't canon unless GW specifically say so - though I maintain that some of them can be cool sources of inspiration.
Emperors Faithful wrote:I thought the numbers were based two-and-a-half millenia after the Vandire Heresy (which leaves another two millenia at least for further expansion.
Yes and no - the quote actually points out that the numbers have declined slightly in recent years, so it's even fewer right now.
On that note, did anyone notice that the 5E 'dex said there's only three major Orders left? I wonder if that was a mistake or if they really had to "merge" some (see Martyted Lady after Armageddon), or if half the Orders were reduced to being minor Orders. One of the questions that I'm waiting for to get answered in the WD 'dex!
Emperors Faithful wrote:Enforcer, which I'll admit focussed more on Arbites, had a Sister convent on a Hive World that was able to police the populace (to the extent that in one city Arbites and SoB numbers were very similar). Then again, while I would be surprised that a Hive City wouldn't have some sort of Sister presence, apart from Shrine and Hive worlds any Ordos Militant presence will be minimal.
Plus it's a novel - depending on the author they take a lot of liberties with the fluff at times (*cough*multilasers*cough*).
I've heard it does have a cool story, though, and the omnibus is on my "to-get" list. Arbites are cool, too.
Or was it a minor Order, perchance? Or some special reason to have a semi-permant garrison of the Sisters Militant there? From what I've read in the 2E 'dex they do move around a lot, with essentially only the two "big" convents at Terra and Ophelia VII being meant to stand forever.
Anyways, some GW books actually feature Force Composition charts for various warzones, and in order to get some "food" for this discussion (actually I was hunting for the source of the transports, see above) I stumbled over a couple of them. Here's an example from the Third War of Armageddon (from its own Codex):
Space Marines = 24 Chapters with 150 Companies altogether
Sisters of Battle = 2 Orders with 10 Companies altogether
Or here, from the "Battle for Bladen" during the Gothic War in 143.M41 (taken from the Cityfight Codex):
"The Ecclesiarchy was strong on Bladen and Massena was the site of their greatest cathedral. The Mission of the Emperor Triumphant was the oldest Ecclesiarchy building in the sub-sector, built on the site of an Apothecarion. Said to have been founded during the Great Crusade it was a place where the Emperor himself was believed to have trod.
And yet the only Imperials to defend it were the Cadian 35th and Cardinal Andrallos with his Confessors. No SoB anywhere. Speaks volumes about how "widepsread" they are.
Emperors Faithful wrote:Really? Where is that in the IG codex? I've read through the Stromtrooper entry and either it's not there or I've overlooked it.
Actually, I misremembered - it's only 10.000! The number is from the 2E Imperial Guard Codex - though even the 5E 'dex still talks of only "the Storm Trooper regiment" (note the singular form).
I've pasted the full quote in another thread here.
dave_salmon wrote:In the Enforcer book it talks about the troubled daughter of a noble being accepted for sorroritas training to straighten her out.
Seemed a bit silly.
That's because it is.
Brother Coa wrote:How do Battle Sister become one of them?
And what are they? Do they represent a portion of Emperor's own energy?
Or are they simply some form of highly trained psychic mutant?
Note number 1: Saints and Living Saints are two entirely different creatures. Saints only become so after death. Living Saints, obviously, are still alive.
Note number 2: Not all Living Saints are from the Adepta Sororitas. Sebastian Thor (posthumously, but still) was considered a Living Saint, due to the way his mere presence calmed the warp storms that plagued the galaxy during Vandire's reign of blood. Saint Sabbat also is not a Sororitas. Most do appear to be female though.
As for what they are? They're embodiments of the Emperor's will. There's nothing inherently psychic about them.
dave_salmon wrote:In the Enforcer book it talks about the troubled daughter of a noble being accepted for sorroritas training to straighten her out.
Seemed a bit silly.
That's because it is.
I've already pointed out that is not how it was. The Sororitas are not a high-end Boarding school that straightens out wayward teens for the priveliged, and Enforcer did not portray it to be that way.
Brother Coa wrote:How do Battle Sister become one of them?
And what are they? Do they represent a portion of Emperor's own energy?
Or are they simply some form of highly trained psychic mutant?
Note number 1: Saints and Living Saints are two entirely different creatures. Saints only become so after death. Living Saints, obviously, are still alive.
Though it should be noted that they ussually burn out quite quickly. Another point against Sebastian Thor being a Living Saint.
Upon their death Living Saints will inevitably join the countless ranks of other Saints.
Note number 2: Not all Living Saints are from the Adepta Sororitas. Sebastian Thor (posthumously, but still) was considered a Living Saint,
That isn't official fact, but it is a popular theory within the Inquisition.
due to the way his mere presence calmed the warp storms that plagued the galaxy during Vandire's reign of blood. Saint Sabbat also is not a Sororitas. Most do appear to be female though.
Thor never claimed, or was attributed, the destruction of Vandire's fleet. That was put down to it being a sign of the Emperor's manifest will, rather than any action or show of willpower on Thor's behalf.
While the older codex hints at Thor's unerring ability to swing people over to his side and motivate/inspire them, neither dex explicitly states that he was a Living Saint or claimed to be one. He certainly didn't have the gobsmacking powers Saint Celestine demonstrated. Like flying.
As for what they are? They're embodiments of the Emperor's will. There's nothing inherently psychic about them.
Unless you consider the Emperor's will made manifest to essentially be psychic in itself, rather than some other unidentified energy.
Emperors Faithful wrote:Though it should be noted that they ussually burn out quite quickly. Another point against Sebastian Thor being a Living Saint.
Usually, but not always. Saint Sabbat warred for centuries... then died and was resurrected and did it again.
Emperors Faithful wrote:That isn't official fact, but it is a popular theory within the Inquisition.
So? Many Saints, living or otherwise, go undeclared because of the vastness of the Imperium and the turmoil of Imperial history. Often the only difference between a Saint and Living Saint is that the Ecclesiarchy only bothers with the paperwork decades or centuries after the Saint died, where the Living Saint impressed enough officials that they dove through the red tape to get it done faster
Emperors Faithful wrote:Thor never claimed, or was attributed, the destruction of Vandire's fleet.
Since when does that matter? Humility is a saintly trait, and one that Sebastian Thor in specific was quite well known for.
Emperors Faithful wrote: neither dex explicitly states that he was a Living Saint or claimed to be one
Do you have a point?
The primary reason Sebastian Thor wasn't officially declared a Living Saint at the time is because during his lifetime the Imperial Cult was in complete and utter turmoil. Just because the Ecclesiarchy, in its infinite red tape, does not happen to declare a Living Saint as such in their lifetime doesn't mean that they weren't actual Living Saints. It just means the Ecclesiarchy is like all other Imperial organization-- large, ponderous, and full of bureaucracy.
Emperors Faithful wrote:Unless you consider the Emperor's will made manifest to essentially be psychic in itself, rather than some other unidentified energy.
They're tested for psychic power and proven not to have it in the course of being declared a Living Saint (if they are touched by the touch of psychic power the best they can hope for is to be sent for sanctioning).
Emperors Faithful wrote:Though it should be noted that they ussually burn out quite quickly. Another point against Sebastian Thor being a Living Saint.
Usually, but not always. Saint Sabbat warred for centuries... then died and was resurrected and did it again.
I've read Sabbat Matyr, the 'resurrection' isn't quite the same as what you're implying it was.
Nor can I recall that Saint Sabbat warred for centuries, by all account the conquering of the Sabbat system spread like wildfire, whereas the re-conquering is going much slower.
Emperors Faithful wrote:That isn't official fact, but it is a popular theory within the Inquisition.
So? Many Saints, living or otherwise, go undeclared because of the vastness of the Imperium and the turmoil of Imperial history. Often the only difference between a Saint and Living Saint is that the Ecclesiarchy only bothers with the paperwork decades or centuries after the Saint died, where the Living Saint impressed enough officials that they dove through the red tape to get it done faster
Yes, I agree. But I also think that a fair few mortals have entered the ranks of Sainthood without needing to be powered directly by the Emperor (if that is indeed how it works).
Emperors Faithful wrote:Thor never claimed, or was attributed, the destruction of Vandire's fleet.
Since when does that matter? Humility is a saintly trait, and one that Sebastian Thor in specific was quite well known for.
Yes, but alledging that Thor was actually responsible for the warp storms that destroyed Vandire's fleet is completely unsupported by any fluff accounts or passages in the codex. It was convenient, and taken as a sign of the righteousness of the Thorian cause, but nowhere is it hinted at that Thor himself was behind it or had any part in it. In short, you pulled the theory out of thin air.
Emperors Faithful wrote: neither dex explicitly states that he was a Living Saint or claimed to be one
Do you have a point?
The primary reason Sebastian Thor wasn't officially declared a Living Saint at the time is because during his lifetime the Imperial Cult was in complete and utter turmoil. Just because the Ecclesiarchy, in its infinite red tape, does not happen to declare a Living Saint as such in their lifetime doesn't mean that they weren't actual Living Saints. It just means the Ecclesiarchy is like all other Imperial organization-- large, ponderous, and full of bureaucracy.
All I'm asking is that you stick to what the fluff actually says then make such claims with any sort of authority. It's easy to see that Sebastian Thor may have been a Living Saint, but it's a theory not a fact (any more than the 'Star Child' theory can be considered a fact).
Emperors Faithful wrote:Unless you consider the Emperor's will made manifest to essentially be psychic in itself, rather than some other unidentified energy.
They're tested for psychic power and proven not to have it in the course of being declared a Living Saint (if they are touched by the touch of psychic power the best they can hope for is to be sent for sanctioning).
While the hosts may not demonstrate psychic ability, how do you then explain their powers? Either it's the Emperor's Will made manifest (and hence inherently psychic, though from a far greater power) or it's someting else that is completely alien.
Melissia wrote:They're tested for psychic power and proven not to have it in the course of being declared a Living Saint (if they are touched by the touch of psychic power the best they can hope for is to be sent for sanctioning).
And besides, the psyker gene would likely have been discovered during purity screens in the Schola already.
The source of a Living Saint's power is likely connected to, if not the same, as the one that allows the Sisters to commit Acts of Faith. This may well be something psychic, just that it works different from psyker stuff. Maybe it even is a subconscious connection to the warp, or it is the Emperor using His incredible psychic powers through them (which would not require the psyker gene and is therefore undetectable by Imperial science). It depends on how "magical" one wants to see the setting, for GW does not go into specifics here - though I have come up with a "scientific" theory:
Lynata wrote:Where the power of a Living Saint truly comes from depends on where you think the power behind the Sisters' "normal" Acts of Faith comes from. Either it truly is the Emperor working through one of his chosen servants, or it is the collective power of faith somehow causing an equivalent to psychic phenomena whilst circumventing the normal requirements and restrictions. Like the Orks' Waaagh field.
I thought about the latter a lot, and by keeping in mind that emotion can occasionally have a very strong effect in 40k (-> birth of Slaanesh) as well as religion being a perfect conduit for emotion, we come to the idea that a Living Saint is the faithful crusading masses' combined hate, zeal and dedication which somehow ends up being channeled into a focal point, essentially jumping to and "possessing"; one of the most faithful, thereby investing her with great supernatural powers which are naturally taken to be of divine origin by the holy warriors present.
A Living Saint's end could then occur out of two reasons: Either the frail human form of the Saint simply cannot bear the strange energies coursing through her body and she "burns out" like a magnesium flare, or - a slightly more ironical and grimdark thought - over time the masses of the faithful get used to the Living Saint doing all the hard work for them and the flow of strong emotion slowly dries up, once reaching the critical threshold essentially cutting the link between the Saint and the actual source of her powers, leaving her body a wrecked hulk.
Just theory, mind you. There is no actual canon regarding the exact nature of Faith Powers in 40k - of course everything is attributed as being the Emperor's work, but nobody knows if it's true.
Lynata: C:WH actually explains how Sisters accomplish it. It is, quite literally, a unique martial arts training they practice, which allows them, through prayer and training, to achieve understandings of battle and war and to accomplish feats "miraculous to the unschooled", to give a direct quote.
Emperors Faithful wrote:Nor can I recall that Saint Sabbat warred for centuries
She died after 105 years of crusading.
Emperors Faithful wrote:Yes, I agree. But I also think that a fair few mortals have entered the ranks of Sainthood without needing to be powered directly by the Emperor (if that is indeed how it works).
This is indeed true.
Emperors Faithful wrote:Yes, but alledging that Thor was actually responsible for the warp storms that destroyed Vandire's fleet is completely unsupported by any fluff accounts or passages in the codex.
Actually I'm fairly certain it's believed that, as a Living Saint, they were calmed by the Emperor's blessings upon him rather than by his own power.
Emperors Faithful wrote:All I'm asking is that you stick to what the fluff actually says
The fluff says a lot of things, often inherently contradictory, with many writers ignoring what other writers put down so that they can have their own little interpretation of what they think is good instead. So which version should I go with today?
Emperors Faithful wrote:While the hosts may not demonstrate psychic ability, how do you then explain their powers? Either it's the Emperor's Will made manifest (and hence inherently psychic, though from a far greater power) or it's someting else that is completely alien.
The Emperor's will made manifest is not considered psychic in the Imperium.
Melissia wrote:Lynata: C:WH actually explains how Sisters accomplish it. It is, quite literally, a unique martial arts training they practice, which allows them, through prayer and training, to achieve understandings of battle and war and to accomplish feats "miraculous to the unschooled", to give a direct quote.
Even if that was taken at face value (Martial Skills make armour stop power weapons) it does nothing to explain the powers of the Living Saint.
Emperors Faithful wrote:Nor can I recall that Saint Sabbat warred for centuries
She died after 105 years of crusading.
So how long did Celestine or Thor live by way of comparison? I'm sure Thor lived for much longer than a century.
Emperors Faithful wrote:Yes, but alledging that Thor was actually responsible for the warp storms that destroyed Vandire's fleet is completely unsupported by any fluff accounts or passages in the codex.
Actually I'm fairly certain it's believed that, as a Living Saint, they were calmed by the Emperor's blessings upon him rather than by his own power.
Are you claiming that he was indeed a Living Saint? Or that many Imperial Citizens believed he was a Living Saint? One is debateable, the other is solidly supported.
Emperors Faithful wrote:All I'm asking is that you stick to what the fluff actually says
The fluff says a lot of things, often inherently contradictory, with many writers ignoring what other writers put down so that they can have their own little interpretation of what they think is good instead. So which version should I go with today?
You could tell it like it is and point out the contradictions (or acknowledge when said contradictions are pointed out to you) rather than pick one piece of fluff (or none) and run with it to the exclusion of all else.
Emperors Faithful wrote:While the hosts may not demonstrate psychic ability, how do you then explain their powers? Either it's the Emperor's Will made manifest (and hence inherently psychic, though from a far greater power) or it's someting else that is completely alien.
The Emperor's will made manifest is not considered psychic in the Imperium.
I don't see canon to support that, it's pretty widely acknowledged that the Emperor was themost powerful psyker in existence.
Emperors Faithful wrote:Even if that was taken at face value (Martial Skills make armour stop power weapons) it does nothing to explain the powers of the Living Saint.
Nor should it, that wasn't my point.
Emperors Faithful wrote:So how long did Celestine or Thor live by way of comparison? I'm sure Thor lived for much longer than a century.
I don't know how long Thor lived. I don't even know how old he was when he first began preaching against Vandire. GW's fluff is vague.
Emperors Faithful wrote:Are you claiming that he was indeed a Living Saint? Or that many Imperial Citizens believed he was a Living Saint? One is debateable, the other is solidly supported.
Both.
Emperors Faithful wrote:You could tell it like it is and point out the contradictions (or acknowledge when said contradictions are pointed out to you) rather than pick one piece of fluff (or none) and run with it to the exclusion of all else.
Why not? Some interpretations and contradictions are stupid.
Emperors Faithful wrote:I don't see canon to support that
... because the powers of the Living Saint are not considered psychic, despite being His will made manifest. The powers of miracles are not considered psychic, despite being His will made manifest. Not everything has to be psychic or non-psychic. Some things can exist outside of the dichotomy given the nature of the Warp. For example, sorcery isn't psychic power.
Emperors Faithful wrote:Are you claiming that he was indeed a Living Saint? Or that many Imperial Citizens believed he was a Living Saint? One is debateable, the other is solidly supported.
Both.
Cool, I certainly think there's evidence to support the theory that Thor was a living Saint, but I can also see him as simply being a (remarkable) mortal man. One doesn't necessarily need to walk with the manifest will of a God inside them to cause upheaval after all.
Emperors Faithful wrote:You could tell it like it is and point out the contradictions (or acknowledge when said contradictions are pointed out to you) rather than pick one piece of fluff (or none) and run with it to the exclusion of all else.
Why not? Some interpretations and contradictions are stupid.
Then you point them out, and deconstruct them to show why they are stupid and should be ignore. This is always prefferable to instantly taking one piece of fluff as gospel.
Emperors Faithful wrote:I don't see canon to support that
... because the powers of the Living Saint are not considered psychic, despite being His will made manifest. The powers of miracles are not considered psychic, despite being His will made manifest. Not everything has to be psychic or non-psychic.
Er...yes they do. Either someone derives their powers (whether born with or later gifted) from psychic ability or they don't.
Some things can exist outside of the dichotomy given the nature of the Warp. For example, sorcery isn't psychic power.
You mean Thousand Sons Sorcery? Becuase that doesn't get you anywhere with this argument.
Melissia wrote:No, I mean sorcery. Why would I talk about whiny *****boy marines?
Sorcery involves pacts, rituals, rites, etc. It can be done by anyone who isn't a Blank. Psychic powers can only be done by psykers.
Generally, even the rituals involve psykers. Unless we're talking about deamon summonings here.
Actually daemon summoning is the ritual which requires psykers the most. It uses psykers heads/minds as a gate through which daemons enter the world.
When it comes to sorcery, psychic power is merely a tool which can increase what you can do with said sorcery. For some rituals I have no doubt it's needed, but it isn't absolutely necessary, as non-psykers can still be powerful and accomplished sorcerers.
Melissia wrote:For example, sorcery isn't psychic power.
Isn't "psychic power" just a conscious way to manipulate the warp, essentially making ritualized sorcery another approach to the same end goal? Faith could well be a (subconscious, emotion-based) third one. Would explain the Living Saints.
Melissia wrote:No, I mean sorcery. Why would I talk about whiny *****boy marines?
Sorcery involves pacts, rituals, rites, etc. It can be done by anyone who isn't a Blank. Psychic powers can only be done by psykers.
Generally, even the rituals involve psykers. Unless we're talking about deamon summonings here.
Actually daemon summoning is the ritual which requires psykers the most. It uses psykers heads/minds as a gate through which daemons enter the world.
When it comes to sorcery, psychic power is merely a tool which can increase what you can do with said sorcery. For some rituals I have no doubt it's needed, but it isn't absolutely necessary, as non-psykers can still be powerful and accomplished sorcerers.
When?
I'm genuinely curious here, I can't think of any 'Sorcerors' where the term 'powerful psyker' didn't also fit.
Melissia wrote:For example, sorcery isn't psychic power.
Isn't "psychic power" just a conscious way to manipulate the warp, essentially making ritualized sorcery another approach to the same end goal?
Being a psyker is genetic.
But everyone, minus Blanks of course, has some influence over the Warp. When you get enough of one emotion it has an effect, after all there was the Birth of Slaanesh (though your average Eldar registers more on the warp then the average human).
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Melissia wrote:
Emperors Faithful wrote:I'm genuinely curious here, I can't think of any 'Sorcerors' where the term 'powerful psyker' didn't also fit.
The sorcerers in the third Cain book were never described as psykers. Together they used ritual sacrifice to almost plunge a world into the warp.
And? It never says that they were lacking in psyker ability.
Emperors Faithful wrote:And? It never says that they were lacking in psyker ability.
None of them were described as psykers, none of them showed psychic powers, etc. One can interpret it as "OMG THEY HAD TONS OF POWERFUL PSYKERS!!!111oneoneoen" but that's their choice. Powerful psykers are quite rare though, so that's extremely unlikely. It's more likely that their sacrifices included psykers to enable the daemon summoning aspect. Psykers themselves do not necessarily tend towards enough sanity to organize or even oversee such an event.
Emperors Faithful wrote:And? It never says that they were lacking in psyker ability.
None of them were described as psykers, none of them showed psychic powers, etc. One can interpret it as "OMG THEY HAD TONS OF POWERFUL PSYKERS!!!111oneoneoen" but that's their choice. Powerful psykers are quite rare...
Or it could be a case of Sorceror = Psyker, which every other bit of 40k lore seems to suggest. Unfortunately Sandy Mitchell didn't forsee that people would nitpick over the use of the word.
You yourself said that some bits of fluff should be ignored, and I agree especially if they contradict the overwhelming majority of canon.
Emperors Faithful wrote:Or it could be a case of Sorceror = Psyker, which every other bit of 40k lore seems to suggest.
No it doesn't.
There's the existence of MACHINES which are capable of altering the warp or using warp energy, with no psychic power necessary. There's even machines which can summon daemons without the use of a psyker, all it uses is a series of complex movements and rituals.
Emperors Faithful wrote:Or it could be a case of Sorceror = Psyker, which every other bit of 40k lore seems to suggest.
No it doesn't.
There's the existence of MACHINES which are capable of altering the warp or using warp energy, with no psychic power necessary. There's even machines which can summon daemons without the use of a psyker, all it uses is a series of complex movements and rituals.
Now this I have to see an example of.
Short of Necrons, becuase frankly they're anathema to the warp.
Emperors Faithful wrote:Or it could be a case of Sorceror = Psyker, which every other bit of 40k lore seems to suggest.
No it doesn't.
There's the existence of MACHINES which are capable of altering the warp or using warp energy, with no psychic power necessary. There's even machines which can summon daemons without the use of a psyker, all it uses is a series of complex movements and rituals.
Now this I have to see an example of.
It's called a Logi Daemonis (Logi Malificum, Perfect Words, Warp-Questions). It is a complex, ritualistic machine that can be any size from a pocketwatch to an entire city (larger being more powerful and effecting more victims), which is designed to weaken the barrier between warpspace and realspace. Using it destroys the machine in the process, but summons a daemon bound to the machine. The result is an incredibly poweful, yet thankfully short lived, daemonic infestation that ignites everything in its presence in warp-fire, turns freshly slain corpses into servitors, and attemtps to possess practically anyone who even looks at it. It may possess multiple victims even.
Emperors Faithful wrote:Or it could be a case of Sorceror = Psyker, which every other bit of 40k lore seems to suggest.
No it doesn't.
There's the existence of MACHINES which are capable of altering the warp or using warp energy, with no psychic power necessary. There's even machines which can summon daemons without the use of a psyker, all it uses is a series of complex movements and rituals.
Now this I have to see an example of.
It's called a Logi Daemonis (Logi Malificum, Perfect Words, Warp-Questions). It is a complex, ritualistic machine that can be any size from a pocketwatch to an entire city (larger being more powerful and effecting more victims), which is designed to weaken the barrier between warpspace and realspace. Using it destroys the machine in the process, but summons a daemon bound to the machine. The result is an incredibly poweful, yet thankfully short lived, daemonic infestation that ignites everything in its presence in warp-fire, turns freshly slain corpses into servitors, and attemtps to possess practically anyone who even looks at it. It may possess multiple victims even.
Source is Dark Heresy: Creature's Anathema.
So it is, essentially, an artifact that has bound a deamonic creature to it? There are a fair few of those around.
Melissia wrote:No. It's a meticulously crafted type of object that, when manipulated in the right way, summons a daemon.
It doesn't just randomly summon a deamon, it summons a deamon that had been bound to the machine. Likely by a previous ritual.
It can be created out of metal strips and wicker, with no daemonic presence at all.
The source you've provided doesn't say what it's made of. But even if it does, how does it support your argument that non-psykers can become sorcerors?
Emperors Faithful wrote:It doesn't just randomly summon a deamon, it summons a deamon that had been bound to the machine.
No.
Emperors Faithful wrote:The source you've provided doesn't say what it's made of.
...
*looks at open book*
Yes. It. Does.
Emperors Faithful wrote:But even if it does, how does it support your argument that non-psykers can become sorcerors?
Things with no presence whatsoever in the Immaterium-- soulless machines-- can effect the boundry between the Materium and Immaterium in extremely powerful ways.
THIS IS SORCERY. Imagine what something that DOES have a soul can do?
You're both argueing over a series of licensed products that - amongst other funny things - want to make you believe PDF receive better equipment than Sisters of Battle.
Lynata wrote:You're both argueing over a series of licensed products that - amongst other funny things - want to make you believe PDF receive better equipment than Sisters of Battle.
Lynata wrote:You're both argueing over a series of licensed products that - amongst other funny things - want to make you believe PDF receive better equipment than Sisters of Battle.
No it doesn't. Stop making things up.
Well, look at the Solo boltgun and compare it to FFG's underwhelming take on the Godwyn-De'az.
Sororitas equipment in the RPG is nothing like GW canon describes it. Quite likely due to reasons of balancing, though that doesn't make me feel any better about it.
Lynata wrote:You're both argueing over a series of licensed products that - amongst other funny things - want to make you believe PDF receive better equipment than Sisters of Battle.
No it doesn't. Stop making things up.
Well, look at the Solo boltgun and compare it to FFG's underwhelming take on the Godwyn-De'az.
I dislike FFG's Sororitas equipment (it contradicts C:WH, especially the armor value of Sorortas Power Armor), but PDF don't get boltguns, power armor, bolt pistols, or chainswords as standard equipment. Even the best equipped PDF still use autoguns/lasguns, with officers MAYBE being able to afford to buy bolt weapons, a chainsword, or possibly inheriting a power weapon passed down through ancestors/previous occupants of their rank.
Melissia wrote:it contradicts C:WH, especially the armor value of Sorortas Power Armor
Exactly. The quality as well (see the Astartes getting their own quality levels in DW which are of course all better than what SoB could field, despite the Codex talking of equality).
Melissia wrote:but PDF don't get boltguns
As per its description, the Solo boltgun is "popular for PDF forces and insurrectionists alike" (from Into the Storm). Its range and accuracy are superior to FFG's Godwyn-De'az.
The bolter inflation in the RPG is just one of the areas where it deviates massively from GW's take on the setting. They made them less powerful but easier attainable so that everyone can get one...
Don't get me wrong, the RPG introduces a lot of cool ideas, but I'm glad it isn't canon. Well, I wish it would be, if it would be closer to the studio material. :(
When even rebels can get their hands on that gun, professional government military is more likely to do so. For whatever reason, the Solo is described as not being as complex as other bolt weapons (hence the popularity), yet it has superior performance. *shrugs*
Agreed about the internal consistency, of course, but I'll continue to stick to my Codices whenever contradictions with studio material pop up. I love the RPG, but in some areas it really messed up.
Lynata wrote:Agreed about the internal consistency, of course, but I'll continue to stick to my Codices whenever contradictions with studio material pop up. I love the RPG, but in some areas it really messed up.
There's a difference between "codex" and "Black Library". I also stick to the codex first, but FFG's productions are STILL worlds above BL books as far as consistency and quality goes in my view.
Lynata wrote:When even rebels can get their hands on that gun, professional government military is more likely to do so. For whatever reason, the Solo is described as not being as complex as other bolt weapons (hence the popularity), yet it has superior performance. *shrugs*
Um, other way around Lyn.
"Professional government military" has to follow forms, requisition orders, etc etc.
Kanluwen wrote:Rebels just have to break into armories.
Armouries of the government?
I'm just comparing FFG's take on the setting to GW, where boltguns were really really rare and unique upgrades even for Imperial Guard officers (i.e. not something that gets stockpiled in the first place; I've always taken those upgrades as heirlooms of the officer's noble heritage etc).
Anyways, I suppose we pretty much agree on the basics, if not on the details.
Kanluwen wrote:Rebels just have to break into armories.
Armouries of the government?
Which require forms, requisition, and authorization for the government to release to troops.
They don't just say "Hey guys, I need a bolter!" and suddenly everyone has a bolter.
I'm just comparing FFG's take on the setting to GW, where boltguns were really really rare and unique upgrades even for Imperial Guard officers (i.e. not something that gets stockpiled in the first place; I've always taken those upgrades as heirlooms of the officer's noble heritage etc).
There's been mention before of 'stockpiles' of boltguns on more sophisticated worlds. They're not always associated with 'noble heritage' or any of that garbage, they're just associated with veteran units who can be trusted with weapons that can put down Astartes.
Dark Heresy(which was GW and thenFFG's doing) is suffering from the same issue 40k tabletop does. They have to scale things for balance.
Kanluwen wrote:Which require forms, requisition, and authorization for the government to release to troops.
According to the IG Codex, they don't get released at all beyond the level of an Imperial Guard officer. So why should some PDF stockpile thousands of them? Can't agree with your reasoning there.
Kanluwen wrote:There's been mention before of 'stockpiles' of boltguns on more sophisticated worlds.
Source? If that's some novel...
Kanluwen wrote:Dark Heresy(which was GW and thenFFG's doing) is suffering from the same issue 40k tabletop does. They have to scale things for balance.
Absolutely, I just think they could've pulled it off a little more elegantly. Contrary to popular belief, this isn't the first 40kRPG we see, and the other one (the one REALLY made by GW and not BI - small but contextwise important difference) managed to do without ridiculous civilian boltguns and civilian Terminator suits just because someone thought Spess Mehreens need to have better stuff than anyone else, regardless of what GW Codices say.
Considering the Marines' genetically engineered biological superiority, this is actually harmful to balance, as you can't do a proper crossover in the RPG where it should be remotely possible when going by (GW) canon. When you want a balanced play, don't unnecessarily make the most powerful "class" even more powerful and screw the rest.
Kanluwen wrote:Which require forms, requisition, and authorization for the government to release to troops.
According to the IG Codex, they don't get released at all beyond the level of an Imperial Guard officer. So why should some PDF stockpile thousands of them? Can't agree with your reasoning there.
Who said anything about them having thousands of them?
I said government armouries, which might have a few dozen at most. Nothing about the PDF stockpiling 'thousands of them'.
Kanluwen wrote:There's been mention before of 'stockpiles' of boltguns on more sophisticated worlds.
Source? If that's some novel...
Imperial Armour volume 5? I think it was. The Imperial Guard codex has also allowed for Veteran Squads equipped with Bolters before.
Why are you arguing at all? We know that only Space Marines, Adeptus Mechanicus, Officio Assassinorum and Grey Knights have better equipment that Sisters of Battle.
No Guard Regiment, PDF, Special Forces or whatsoever will ever have better equipment than Sisters, exept armor but that;s another story. Just look at regular Guardsman and regular Sister. And then compare Stormtrooper and Celestian.
Brother Coa wrote:Why are you arguing at all? We know that only Space Marines, Adeptus Mechanicus, Officio Assassinorum and Grey Knights have better equipment that Sisters of Battle.
We should know so, yes. According to the WH Codex and a WD article, Astartes and Sororitas equipment is on the exact same level.
The RPG just tells a different story. My only hope is that this perception doesn't gain a foothold in the community.
Didn't you yourself complain about the SoB gear in the RPG, in one of your previous posts?
In the RPG:
The SoB Godwyn-De'az is basically an off-the-mill "civilian" bolter of good quality (-> Reliable) and worse than the PDF Solo. The Astartes version does about 33%(!) more damage.
The SoB armour is light power armour with a reinforced torso. Astartes version offers 1-2 AP more depending on location.
SoB gear in general uses DH's "civilian" quality scale, Astartes gear makes a point of how much better even their "Common" is.
The books compare them to Guardsmen, not even trying to make this pale copy of the SoB be able to stand up to the Marines.
Opposed to what GW wrote:
The Godwyn-De'az is noted for its "superior performance". The Codex says their armour and weapons are "the equal of any Marine Chapter".
The armour is specifically described as possessing "the same degree of armoured protection as Marine PA".
SoB are "equipped to the highest standards" and their equipment is "amongst the best the Adeptus Mechanicus can produce".
SoB are perfectly capable of "challenging renegade Marine Chapters" and, in fact, preferred by the Inquisition even before another Astartes Chapter when doing so (loyalty reasons).
It's just not the same. The RPG's SoB are balanced to work alongside Hive gangers, Guardsmen and feral warriors - whereas Marines receive their own rulebook with a ton of special perks and abilities only available to them, and for some reason better equipment than they should have. Squad mode is just as laughable: Space Wolves and Black Templars in a team for the first time having more cohesion than a squad of Sisters that fought together for more than a decade?
The RPG's Marines are actually invulnerable against the SoB's puny "civilian" (and yes, the core rulebook uses that mocking term for anything wielded by non-Astartes) bolters, which is all the more ridiculous when you consider that one of the Sisters' duties includes fighting traitor Marines. In GW's mind, anyways.
I also dislike how the RPG's Faith Talents basically turned the SoB into a group's AoE buff caster, but I guess we're digressing the more you give me opportunity to rant. I still love the RPG and buy the books, but have long since stopped taking many things it claims at face value concerning the overall canon.
Didn't you yourself complain about the SoB gear in the RPG, in one of your previous posts?
There's a difference between disliking one aspect of the rules (which I do quite often for ALL systems, GW is no exception-- in fact, I dislike FAR more about GW's rules and fluff than I do about FFG's) and you making a stupid statement that PDF get better equipment despite the fact that they do not.
I see - apologies for misjudging you, then. And I've only reiterated what the book says. I'm going to assume you simply interpreted the Solo's popularity different.
Perhaps because I'm not a native English speaker. I always assumed that for something to be popular with a group it has to be available in some form. I also never talked of abundance, but the fact remains that this gun is better than the RPGs G'D, and the Sororitas don't get a bolter better than that.
I also see no reason why we are getting stuck at this, as it's just a small fraction of a much bigger issue - given that this "nerf" (compared to GW writing) stretches over several books and isn't just a single slip of a single author. I don't feel the Sororitas as a whole come near to what the Codex makes them to be. If you think differently, more power to you, and I guess we should simply agree to disagree.
Emperors Faithful wrote:It doesn't just randomly summon a deamon, it summons a deamon that had been bound to the machine.
No.
It says, in the very paragraph you provided, that the daemon was bound to the artifact.
Emperors Faithful wrote:The source you've provided doesn't say what it's made of.
...
*looks at open book*
Yes. It. Does.
Cool, wasn't in the peice you provided. Also, big letters don't make you any less wrong. Stick to proper arguments, if you please.
Emperors Faithful wrote:But even if it does, how does it support your argument that non-psykers can become sorcerors?
Things with no presence whatsoever in the Immaterium-- soulless machines-- can effect the boundry between the Materium and Immaterium in extremely powerful ways.
In several IG books, Gaunt's Ghosts being one of them, the runic symbols of chaos make the protagonist's eyes sore and even induces vomiting just be looking at them. I never said that objects couldn't be imbued with the power of the warp and have some sort of effect in the material world.
What I do dispute is your attempt to seperate what is a Sorceror and what is a Psyker. Are you telling me that a Chaos sorceror is now just a regular guy that stumbled upon a magic book?
THIS IS SORCERY. Imagine what something that DOES have a soul can do?
Okay, even if I was to concede to your idea than non-psykers can still manipulate the warp to any meaningful degree (which I don't) how does this explain the powers of the Living Saint?
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Melissia wrote:Something that is popular is not necessarily common. Oprah Winfrey was popular, but there was still only one Oprah Winfrey.
But her show was widely available, via Television.
Emperors Faithful wrote:It says, in the very paragraph you provided, that the daemon was bound to the artifact.
No it doesn't. The daemon is SUMMONED, I rather specifically said that in my description of it. I know what I said, and apparently you don't. Go back and actually read my post.
Emperors Faithful wrote:Cool, wasn't in the peice you provided. Also, big letters don't make you any less wrong. Stick to proper arguments, if you please.
... because I wasn't directly quoting, I was describing. Duh. You are the one that made asinine assumtions about something you know nothing about.
Emperors Faithful wrote:What I do dispute is your attempt to seperate what is a Sorceror and what is a Psyker. Are you telling me that a Chaos sorceror is now just a regular guy that stumbled upon a magic book?
Oftentimes... yes!
Emperors Faithful wrote:Okay, even if I was to concede to your idea than non-psykers can still manipulate the warp to any meaningful degree (which I don't) how does this explain the powers of the Living Saint?
Because it proves that not everything that is purely scientific is psychic in nature. Pay attention more.
Emperors Faithful wrote:But her show was widely available, via Television.
Rocket Launchers are popular but most people will never see one, nevermind use one.
Emperors Faithful wrote:It says, in the very paragraph you provided, that the daemon was bound to the artifact.
No it doesn't. The daemon is SUMMONED, I rather specifically said that in my description of it. I know what I said, and apparently you don't. Go back and actually read my post.
Melissia wrote:It's called a Logi Daemonis (Logi Malificum, Perfect Words, Warp-Questions). It is a complex, ritualistic machine that can be any size from a pocketwatch to an entire city (larger being more powerful and effecting more victims), which is designed to weaken the barrier between warpspace and realspace. Using it destroys the machine in the process, but summons a daemon bound to the machine. The result is an incredibly poweful, yet thankfully short lived, daemonic infestation that ignites everything in its presence in warp-fire, turns freshly slain corpses into servitors, and attemtps to possess practically anyone who even looks at it. It may possess multiple victims even.
Source is Dark Heresy: Creature's Anathema.
Using it destroys the machine in the process, but summons a daemon bound to the machine.
...but summons a daemon bound to the machine.
I did.
Emperors Faithful wrote:Cool, wasn't in the peice you provided. Also, big letters don't make you any less wrong. Stick to proper arguments, if you please.
... because I wasn't directly quoting, I was describing. Duh. You are the one that made asinine assumtions about something you know nothing about.
No I pointed out that the source you provided didn't actually tell me what it was made out of, you witheld information and got angry at me when I made a mistake working with what you had provided. You could have been polite about this an told me that there was more to the source than that, but for some reason you seem intent on turning this into a mudslinging contest.
Emperors Faithful wrote:What I do dispute is your attempt to seperate what is a Sorceror and what is a Psyker. Are you telling me that a Chaos sorceror is now just a regular guy that stumbled upon a magic book?
Oftentimes... yes!
Cool. Source.
Emperors Faithful wrote:Okay, even if I was to concede to your idea than non-psykers can still manipulate the warp to any meaningful degree (which I don't) how does this explain the powers of the Living Saint?
Because it proves that not everything that is purely scientific is psychic in nature. Pay attention more.
Purely scientific? I've never claimed that purely scientific items, such as a plasma gun, have anything to do with the warp. What are you talking about?
What I want to know is where you think this 'energy' that drives the Living Saints comes from.
Emperors Faithful wrote:But her show was widely available, via Television.
Rocket Launchers are popular but most people will never see one, nevermind use one.
That's because the military deals with rocket launchers, not the citizenry. Same as how the military deals with boltguns in DH, not the citizenry. I was only pointing out that your similie 'Boltguns are like Oprah Winfrey' falls flat on its face.
Going back to the OP - I had seen an interesting discussion about the Living Saints being the equivalent of Champions of Chaos but in this case being Champions of the Emperor.
HE then grants them rewards in the form of their special powers - this would also get by the neccesity of being psykers as the Chaos Gods and so if this theory is continued, the Emperor can grant rewards to any "worthy" champion.
Their final disappearance would also fit as they Asscend to be part of the Emperor in the same way as Daemon Princes are created? Certianly the descirption of Saint Celestine fits an ascended being and again uses the term Apotheosis....
Stop being dense. I wrote that, it was not a quotation, it was ME DESCRIBING THE FETHING THING. If you haven't actually READ the source, you can't say the information isn't in it. And despite your claims otherwise, it IS in fact in there.
It SUMMONS A DAEMON, which is then bound to the machine. The daemon is not in the machine until it is fething summoned.
Stop being dense. I wrote that, it was not a quotation, it was ME DESCRIBING THE FETHING THING. If you haven't actually READ the source, you can't say the information isn't in it. And despite your claims otherwise, it IS in fact in there.
See, this is what I'm talking about. You are getting horribly worked up over this, and blaming me for it. I don't happen to have a copy of Dark Heresy on me, so I'm just going off what you said. You realise that providing the actual quotation would help, right?
It SUMMONS A DAEMON, which is then bound to the machine. The daemon is not in the machine until it is fething summoned.
That's a serious twisting of the sentence to get the interpretation you want, from what you provided it seems that the deamon was always bound to the object which (as far as inquisitors go) isn't uncommon. A direct quote would be nice.
Couple of Quotes for Creatures Anathama which may help
"The Logos Daemonis is a device of complex form that calls forth ferocious Daemons of the warp at the hands of either witch of innocent"
"Certain complex confogerations of rods, spindles and other structures can conjure forth Daemons and the fury of the Empyrean when manipulated in a particular fashion."
"The attendance of any form of warp craft or psker taint is not neccessary for a Logos to activate."
As its described in the book it acts as a short lived gateway allowing the creatures of the warp access to the materail world. As soon as takes the correct form it open a gateway to hell
Mr Morden wrote:"Certain complex confogerations of rods, spindles and other structures can conjure forth Daemons and the fury of the Empyrean when manipulated in a particular fashion."
Mr Morden wrote:Couple of Quotes for Creatures Anathama which may help
"The Logos Daemonis is a device of complex form that calls forth ferocious Daemons of the warp at the hands of either witch of innocent"
"Certain complex confogerations of rods, spindles and other structures can conjure forth Daemons and the fury of the Empyrean when manipulated in a particular fashion."
"The attendance of any form of warp craft or psker taint is not neccessary for a Logos to activate."
As its described in the book it acts as a short lived gateway allowing the creatures of the warp access to the materail world. As soon as takes the correct form it open a gateway to hell
).
Granted, partially that may be due to the lack of alternatives in terms of Sisters novels (