I have noticed something about 40k, that all the space marines are Caucasian. I would be able to overlook this, only the only space marines of non-white origin, the salamanders, are classed as mutated. I want a discussion, not someone trying to rationalize it, and say racism is non existent. The fact that the greatest heroes of humanity are white, and the only black ones are mutated makes me feel there is some sort of institutional racism or racial preference.

It's a matter of people painting things...
You can paint them any damn colour you want.

The Salamanders aren't black as in darker skin. Their skin is literally black. It is a mutation with their gene-seed. They may very well have darker skin before they are recruited but once they get all marined up their skin goes black.

There are likely many marines who have darker skin but the thing is a lot of marines have helmets and when you get down to it darker skin is harder to paint... at least i think it is.

I've painted black, white, and in-between marines. Most of mine wear helmets, though. So, 40% of my marines could be black and I wound't know it.

Paint your damn minis however you want!

The Crimson fists have a spanish or latin background if you read through their notable names. ( source )

Chapter Master Alexis Polux - The Crimson Fists First Chapter Master (dec.)
Chapter Master Algernon Traegus - 16th Chapter Master (dec.)9
Chapter Master Klede Sargo - 17th Chapter Master (dec.)9
Chapter Master Kardova - Chapter Master during The Crusade of Righteous Liberation (dec.)
Chapter Master Pedro Kantor - Lord Hellblade, current Crimson Fists Chapter Master (M41), Captain of Crusade Company, 29th Chapter Master1,9
Captain Drigo Alvez - Captain of the 2nd, Master of the Shield, Captain in charge of defence of New Rynn City, overwhelmed and killed by Orks (dec.)9
Captain Ashor Drakken - Captain of the 3rd, Master of the Line, killed in the assault on Krugerport (dec.)9
Captain Alessio Cortez - Master of the Charge9, Nigh-invulnerable Captain of the 4th Company (pres dec.)
Captain Selig Torres - Captain of the 5th9
Captain Olbyn Kadena - Captain of the 6th, Master of the Watch9
Captain Caldimus Ortiz - Captain of the 7th, Master of the Gates (.dec)9
Captain Matteo Morrelis - Captain of the 8th, Master of Blades9
Captain Raphael Acastus - Captain of the 9th, Master of Siege9
Captain Ishmael Icario - Captain of the 10th, Master of Shadows9
Veteran Sergeant Grevius - Member of a Deathwatch Kill-team and was killed by a Tyranid Lictor on Herodian IV7
Brother Toma of the Fifth Company, Crimson Fists8
Forgemaster Javier Adon - Master of the Technicarum (dec.)9
High Chaplain Marqol Tomasi (dec.) 9
Chaplain Argo - Chaplain of the 5th Company
Chief Librarian Eustace Mendoza - Master of the Librarius (dec.) 9

purplefood wrote:It's a matter of people painting things...
You can paint them any damn colour you want.

The Salamanders aren't black as in darker skin. Their skin is literally black. It is a mutation with their gene-seed. They may very well have darker skin before they are recruited but once they get all marined up their skin goes black.

There are likely many marines who have darker skin but the thing is a lot of marines have helmets and when you get down to it darker skin is harder to paint... at least i think it is.

You try living on a world of lava and not having a tan.

-J.

I would paint my space marines any, as you put it, damn color I like (hint of irritation or anger). But the problem I have is, Space marines are advertised as white, yes, I have no problem with this. But, the problem I have is that the salamanders, who were originally dark skinned, are now pitch black with red eyes. This seems a tad racist to me, or at the very least, ironic. Red eyes have always been used to show evil, the fact that they go from dark skinned to demonic looking, is suspicious, at the least.

Imagine727 wrote:I would paint my space marines any, as you put it, damn color I like (hint of irritation or anger). But the problem I have is, Space marines are advertised as white, yes, I have no problem with this. But, the problem I have is that the salamanders, who were originally dark skinned, are now pitch black with red eyes. This seems a tad racist to me, or at the very least, ironic. Red eyes have always been used to show evil, the fact that they go from dark skinned to demonic looking, is suspicious, at the least.

Salamanders are the nicest SM chapter around...
I could also go into a rant about SM in general right now but i won't...
Next time you see a guy with black skin (I mean atually black not just dark) and red eyes you try telling me you aren't a little bit freaked out.

Most futureristic sci-fi universes have little or no black people in them.

Ah, yes, this thread. It's a popular and a contentious issue. Simply put: it's because GW didn't think of it, then when they did, they decided to un-think of it.

I remember back in my Warseer days this topic would get nasty real fast. I shall be interested to see how Dakka handles it.

htj wrote:Ah, yes, this thread. It's a popular and a contentious issue. Simply put: it's because GW didn't think of it, then when they did, they decided to un-think of it.

I remember back in my Warseer days this topic would get nasty real fast. I shall be interested to see how Dakka handles it.

This thread will probably die. It has been answered correctly fairly quickly.

purplefood wrote:

htj wrote:Ah, yes, this thread. It's a popular and a contentious issue. Simply put: it's because GW didn't think of it, then when they did, they decided to un-think of it.

I remember back in my Warseer days this topic would get nasty real fast. I shall be interested to see how Dakka handles it.

This thread will probably die. It has been answered correctly fairly quickly.

That will be better than the 20 page descent into rampant hostility and barely concealed racism I was used to on Warseer.

The fact that they would freak me out doesn't answer my question. I assume your are Caucasian, purplefood, so you may not understand the concept of racism from a receiving end. But what I find annoying, I will say AGAIN, is that the ONLY dark skinned chapter ended up looking like demons, do you not find this at least a little racist or prejudice? If not... then you are but ANOTHER rationalizing fool, who will not accept the fact that racism is present everywhere.

Imagine727 wrote:I have noticed something about 40k, that all the space marines are Caucasian. I would be able to overlook this, only the only space marines of non-white origin, the salamanders, are classed as mutated.

...Except the Salamanders, as mentioned, are Caucasian but with a gene-seed defect that makes their skin unnaturally black.
By the same coin, the Raven Guard are Caucasian by and large but with a gene-seed defect that makes their skin an almost pearly white with 'coal black eyes and jet black hair'.

I want a discussion, not someone trying to rationalize it, and say racism is non existent.

The fact that the greatest heroes of humanity are white, and the only black ones are mutated makes me feel there is some sort of institutional racism or racial preference.

Imagine727 wrote:The fact that they would freak me out doesn't answer my question. I assume your are Caucasian, purplefood, so you may not understand the concept of racism from a receiving end. But what I find annoying, I will say AGAIN, is that the ONLY dark skinned chapter ended up looking like demons, do you not find this at least a little racist or prejudice? If not... then you are but ANOTHER rationalizing fool, who will not accept the fact that racism is present everywhere.

Maybe if they acted like demons, but they are the nicest most human chapter around. Judging them by appearance and not their personality would be racist

your argument is very good. It seems that the information I have on salamanders is incorrect... IF the information that your giving me is correct... Hmmmmm

Imagine727 wrote:The fact that they would freak me out doesn't answer my question. I assume your are Caucasian, purplefood, so you may not understand the concept of racism from a receiving end. But what I find annoying, I will say AGAIN, is that the ONLY dark skinned chapter ended up looking like demons, do you not find this at least a little racist or prejudice? If not... then you are but ANOTHER rationalizing fool, who will not accept the fact that racism is present everywhere.

And I will say AGAIN that the ONLY dark skinned Chapter look like demons because of a freakish mutation that was not expected.

The general idea put forth, any time this argument is brought forward, is that at this point in time the population has become intermingled to such an extent that genetics has taken hold and the recessive traits have become rarities.

Or it's, again, a case of white people designing a game and not knowing how best to handle introducing other ethnicities without making the PC brigade cry foul on everything.

Imagine727 wrote:The fact that they would freak me out doesn't answer my question. I assume your are Caucasian, purplefood, so you may not understand the concept of racism from a receiving end. But what I find annoying, I will say AGAIN, is that the ONLY dark skinned chapter ended up looking like demons, do you not find this at least a little racist or prejudice? If not... then you are but ANOTHER rationalizing fool, who will not accept the fact that racism is present everywhere.

You don't have to not be white to find it annoying. I was pretty hacked off by it myself, and I'm white as a milk-bottle. Leave off the personal attacks, though, they're uncalled for.

Is it racism that motivated the change? Probably. Probably one of those unconcious fear of a black planet kind of racisms. But you've got to remember that GW is staffed almost entirely by nerdy white guys. For the most part, they probably didn't even realise what they were doing. It's not worth getting angry about, it's just sad.


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Kanluwen wrote:Or it's, again, a case of white people designing a game and not knowing how best to handle introducing other ethnicities without making the PC brigade cry foul on everything.

Ah, no, here it is. Kanluwen's right.

true, I will now calm down....

How some one paints their minis, be they black, white or what have you isn't really what I gather the OP is on about.
...And he does have a valid point in that the vast majority of images of SM do indeed depict them as Caucasian.

The vast majority of images of SM depict them as small-headed, horse-faced abhumans who happen to be white or in some cases vaguely Asian in appearance.

EDIT: Never mind. Everyone go paint their space men and be happy.

Kanluwen wrote:The vast majority of images of SM depict them as small-headed, horse-faced abhumans who happen to be white or in some cases vaguely Asian in appearance.

However poorly proportioned the drawings/images are notwithstanding, you have to admit that overall most depict white guys in power armor.

I have already said I have calmed down, so stop telling me to...

FITZZ wrote:

Kanluwen wrote:The vast majority of images of SM depict them as small-headed, horse-faced abhumans who happen to be white or in some cases vaguely Asian in appearance.

However poorly proportioned the drawings/images are notwithstanding, you have to admit that overall most depict white guys in power armor.

And you have to admit the majority of the world's population falls under what many would consider "white guys".

I'm sure there's planets out there filled with black people.
Vitria, home of the famous Vitrian Dragoons that Dan Abnett introduced, is mentioned as being a planet filled with black people.
The Glavians, who again Dan Abnett introduced, are supposed to be all-black and a planet stuffed to the brim with superbly skilled engineers, pilots, and scientists.

What gets shown in images isn't the end of the story.

yes, but it is the part of the story that is most widely acknowledged

I didn't get Vitrian Dragoons as being black, thought they were more middle eastern.

The Space Marines should be Asian, since almost all Asian traits are genetically dominant.

Kanluwen wrote:

FITZZ wrote:

Kanluwen wrote:The vast majority of images of SM depict them as small-headed, horse-faced abhumans who happen to be white or in some cases vaguely Asian in appearance.

However poorly proportioned the drawings/images are notwithstanding, you have to admit that overall most depict white guys in power armor.

And you have to admit the majority of the world's population falls under what many would consider "white guys".

I'm sure there's planets out there filled with black people.
Vitria, home of the famous Vitrian Dragoons that Dan Abnett introduced, is mentioned as being a planet filled with black people.
The Glavians, who again Dan Abnett introduced, are supposed to be all-black and a planet stuffed to the brim with superbly skilled engineers, pilots, and scientists.

What gets shown in images isn't the end of the story.

Of course it isn't...
Just saying that perhaps a broader spectrum should be depicted in imagery..visual imagery that is.

Imagine727 wrote:The fact that they would freak me out doesn't answer my question. I assume your are Caucasian, purplefood, so you may not understand the concept of racism from a receiving end. But what I find annoying, I will say AGAIN, is that the ONLY dark skinned chapter ended up looking like demons, do you not find this at least a little racist or prejudice? If not... then you are but ANOTHER rationalizing fool, who will not accept the fact that racism is present everywhere.

I understand racism from a recieving end. I have been discriminated against before. It isn't fun.
My point is that the description of them being 'daemonic' is from frightened and terrified mortals.
They aren't the only dark skinned chapter. There are likely more, in fact any SM chapter could have dark skinned marines. The reason they don't is much like why men use he as a default rather than she, the artist in question is white. I don't think it is racially motivated just unthinking.

True, but oversight can sometimes have terrible and lasting consequences.

Imagine727 wrote:True, but oversight can sometimes have terrible and lasting consequences.

It can yeah but in this case it don't think it will have a massive effect on society at large.

Imagine727 wrote:yes, but it is the part of the story that is most widely acknowledged

Because people don't like reading?

That doesn't mean anything. It just means people can be lazy and the artists are sticking to whatever's easiest for them, being primarily white nerdy individuals, to do.

Happygrunt wrote:I didn't get Vitrian Dragoons as being black, thought they were more middle eastern.

See, what I think throws a lot of people is the mention of their 'big book of war'(name eludes me right now). It sounds vaguely Middle Eastern/Oriental, and then not long before hand Abnett describes the Dragoon that Caffran is sharing a foxhole with as being an individual with a richly dark complexion or something like that.

htj wrote:Ah, yes, this thread. It's a popular and a contentious issue. Simply put: it's because GW didn't think of it, then when they did, they decided to un-think of it.

.

I think it's that.

Back in the good old days when the original GW crew were inventing 40K there probably wasn't more than 4% black population in the Nottingham area, plus a higher number of asians (6-7%). (For US readers, asian means people descended from inhabitants of the Indian Subcontinent.)

It's quite possible that all the GW staff were white, had all white schoolmates and so on, and didn't really think about the possible role of non-white people in the future scenario they were writing.

When the majority population operates in "colour blind" mode, it tends to ignore the presence of the non-white population. It's pretty much subconscious unless it is drawn to people's attention. Same for other majority-minority situations such as women at work, homosexuality issues, and so on.

I don't think there is any actual malicious racism involved even though they've had and ignored the chance to change things around.

I think comes down to white people don't think about the race thing as often as black people. Most likely they SM are white because the artist is white. Go look at artist over the past 100 years white people paint white people and black people paint black people (with a few exceptions). I am not saying that there isn't racism. But think about it if you picture the average person in your head most times it will look just like you including skin tone.

Do you slide into that category (white and nerdy)?

Imagine727 wrote:Do you slide into that category (white and nerdy)?

Yes, yes I do. I will go even further I am from the southern United States Purportedly the most racist place on earth. If you don't count South Africa

I am black and.... I wouldn't call myself nerdy, but I have interests which other people may find boring

If you're playing 40k--you're a nerd.

We don't hide our shame here. We don't see skin color, sexual orientation, or body types here.

We're all nerds!

Imagine727 wrote:I am black and.... I wouldn't call myself nerdy, but I have interests which other people may find boring

Just out of curiosity...do you find yourself getting " strange glances" when you walk into a FLGS...
My Missus (who is Black) on occasion will run by the FLGS for me and always comes home with some amusing story about patron/staff reactions.

NNNOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!


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wats flgs

Imagine727 wrote:NNNOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!


Automatically Appended Next Post:
wats flgs

FLGS= "Friendly Local Game Shop/Store"

Not really. I just noticed that the manager at my local GW was a bit over enthusiastic to sell me something lol

Imagine727 wrote:Not really. I just noticed that the manager at my local GW was a bit over enthusiastic to sell me something lol

...That's true for any race that walks through the door...equality through capitalism I suppose...

Just wondering because the Missus has made comments like ..." They acted like they've never seen a Black person before.."
To witch I laughed and replied " Naw, I think it's that your a woman...most of them haven't seen women up close."...

So to recap. Most SM are white because they were created by white nerdy guys. While that is somewhat racist it wasn't meant to be blatant or malicious. The thread is a success because it didn't degrade in to name calling and finger pointing and the gnashing of teeth and the waving of fist was avoided.

Good Job!

True, by the way, how old do you think I am?

Imagine727 wrote:True, by the way, how old do you think I am?

Going back to what I said before I imagine everyone on Dakka is a 30 - 38ish white guy from Texas.

I'm *** lol

Kilkrazy Mod edit: Thank you. We don't encourage members to advertise their age until they are old enough to count as Grognards.

EDIT: Please excuse the spelling and grammar, writing this while in math class.

Honestly, I dont think its about race.

According to a few studies. As humanity continues to expand and inter merry. In the long run. We will all be one race. Resulting in the population being a cream coffee color, light to medium brown.

I have native american heritage. So I'm light brown most of the time, though while working third shift, I became white, as I hadnt been exposed to a decent amount of sun light for a full year.

In battle, you cover your skin, anything exposed is a hazard. In space travel, your not exposed to sunlight. In hive cities, your not exposed to sun.

I would assume, that after 40,000 years, man kind would evolve to have less melanin in their skin. As it didnt take terrible long from when groups left Africa to loose their coloration, because they had less sun exposure. They had to cover up because of the cold. And the "White" race came into exsistance.

All aspects of appearance are types of mutations. Mutation isnt always a bad thing, its how we improve and adapt.

Darker skinned people are more resistant to skin cancer, So honestly I would assume most space marines should be dark skinned. Though it is assumed they have other means of avoiding the various cancers.

my thoughts on the subject.

I know race is a touchy subject. It would be naive of me to think that racism doesn't exist. It would be true for me. But I am white. I have never experienced true racism or prejudice. The only thing I know about being black is, that I have know idea what it's like being black.

thank you for your input

I really doubt it's serious racism, as highlighted above. Rather, a lazy oversight by a mostly Caucasian territory. As somebody above pointed out, the Crimson Fists have many Hispanic names in it, implying that they are primarily composed of Hispanic people.

I'm surprised that nobody has mentioned the White Scars yet either. Aren't they primarily Asian themselves?

I've seen old Salamander models painted with darker skin tones as well, weren't they dark skinned before they were black skinned and red eyed? Before I knew about that change I was going to paint some marines Salamanders colors, and I burn in the sun with any suntan lotion under SPF 80.

At my FLGS we have one Hispanic guy that comes in and the rest are white. I live in Connecticut, which is (I guess, politely correct me if I'm wrong) a pretty ethnically diverse state. He has no problem with how GW chooses to display their product.

My younger brother is black while I'm a sick, pasty white, so I've always embraced diversity.

In this thread, I find myself agreeing with Kanluwen on everything. It's also not exclusive to Space Marines but 40k in general - and even beyond 40k!

As others have said, white people paint white people - unless they specifically focus on painting something else (either due to personal preferences or some kind of quota or because it's one of those rare exceptions where people are including variation for its own sake).

That said, there's one GW picture that includes a black Seraphim, so at least one artist kept diversity in mind.

Do you think you guys good get my other threads moving as fast as this one?

Imagine727 wrote:Do you think you guys good get my other threads moving as fast as this one?

No... if discussion isn't happening, then just let it die.

DBI

Justus wrote:I really doubt it's serious racism, as highlighted above. Rather, a lazy oversight by a mostly Caucasian territory. As somebody above pointed out, the Crimson Fists have many Hispanic names in it, implying that they are primarily composed of Hispanic people.

I'm surprised that nobody has mentioned the White Scars yet either. Aren't they primarily Asian themselves?

They're supposed to look more like the Mongolians, who if you look at photos of the Mongolians who live on the Steppes tend to look like the majority of Russians you see.

I've seen old Salamander models painted with darker skin tones as well, weren't they dark skinned before they were black skinned and red eyed? Before I knew about that change I was going to paint some marines Salamanders colors, and I burn in the sun with any suntan lotion under SPF 80.

They have always been described as 'dark skinned' with the mutation being present, at least as far back as I've seen.

At my FLGS we have one Hispanic guy that comes in and the rest are white. I live in Connecticut, which is (I guess, politely correct me if I'm wrong) a pretty ethnically diverse state. He has no problem with how GW chooses to display their product.
My younger brother is black while I'm a sick, pasty white, so I've always embraced diversity.

Clearly you are not as ethnically diverse as we are here in North Carolina.
We have three Hispanic players, an African American, and an Asian player in addition to four white guys(three of whom are old and crotchety, while I'm a whippersnapper at 23)!

(Joking aside, that's my gaming population right now. None of them have ever complained about "White folks dominating the game!" as far as I can recall).

That's funny Kan, I always thought you were a crazy 40 year old guy, maybe similar to your avatar.

Happygrunt wrote:That's funny Kan, I always thought you were a crazy 40 year old guy, maybe similar to your avatar.

He looks exactly like his avatar. He just looks old for his age...

lol

Happygrunt wrote:That's funny Kan, I always thought you were a crazy 40 year old guy, maybe similar to your avatar.

Good lord, I wish I was Leonard Nimoy with Nunchucks.

I wondered who that was...

I know this has nothing to do with the board game and is probably irrelevant but there was a black inquisitor on the first dawn of war game

I know it was a long time ago, but if I recall, there was a 40K expansion back around 2nd edition called 'Dark Millennium.' It had a Dark Angel on the cover of it who looked to me like he had black skin. Anybody remember this?

There are black marines... look!

Another way to look at it is this. The Primarchs were made by the Emperor who used some of his own genetic material to create them. Since the Emp was white it stands to reason that the primarchs then would also be white (barring any mutations to the gene code). Thus since all space marines are created by using the genetic material from their primarch which supplants the person's original genetic code then they would take ater the primarchs. So the reason why all space marines are white (except those with genetic mutation) is becasue the Emp who created them all created them with his own genetic material which included being white.

Commisar Wolfie wrote:Another way to look at it is this. The Primarchs were made by the Emperor who used some of his own genetic material to create them. Since the Emp was white it stands to reason that the primarchs then would also be white (barring any mutations to the gene code). Thus since all space marines are created by using the genetic material from their primarch which supplants the person's original genetic code then they would take ater the primarchs. So the reason why all space marines are white (except those with genetic mutation) is becasue the Emp who created them all created them with his own genetic material which included being white.

Hmm. Interesting idea, but that'd require Neophytes to change colours during marination process.

Not exactly impossible, though. I could see this work in the weird pseudo-science of 40k.

@ that Inquisitor from DoW: I remember! The guy who kept ranting about his booted heel and how he wanted to stomp everyone. He was cool. Badass voice, too.

Commisar Wolfie wrote:Most futureristic sci-fi universes have little or no black people in them.

As an interesting side point, Neal Asher takes genetics seriously in his novels, which means that a largely cosmospolitan (see what I did there?) humanity ends up olive-brownish, while individual planets which have not been subsumed into the Polity have the general genetic pool of their initial colonizers. Unless they've got genetic adaptations in which case you get skin colours such as blue, yellow, scales and fur, etc.

Also, thanks for pointing out the common genetic background of all Space Marine Primarchs, saves me the trouble of asking if my memory was correct :p

Good thing to remember is that the 40k humanity is a restrictive, conservative, pile of dung (as a society considered), and that genetic exchange between planets or sectors is rather limited, and as such certain ethnicities will come to dominate different areas of the IOM "naturally" - whether enforced centrally, culturally, or simply through isolation. Also, talking of genetically dominating traits in a universe in which Tzeentch has taken an interest is sort of redundant.

Imagine727 wrote:I would paint my space marines any, as you put it, damn color I like (hint of irritation or anger). But the problem I have is, Space marines are advertised as white, yes, I have no problem with this. But, the problem I have is that the salamanders, who were originally dark skinned, are now pitch black with red eyes. This seems a tad racist to me, or at the very least, ironic. Red eyes have always been used to show evil, the fact that they go from dark skinned to demonic looking, is suspicious, at the least.

Jonah the psyker from the blood ravens in dawn of war 2 chaos rising is black and has a posh english accent !, and the librarian from that blood angel audiobook that black library is healthy shade of caramel. To be honest the issue is that when warhammer was originally designed there prime demographic was white males, hence so were most of there characters, another thing to remember is that regardless of your ethnicity once youve had geneseed transplanted you start to develop resemblances to the primarch of your chapter, hence why a lot of blood angels have blonde hair. Keep in mind all the white scars are oriental looking, and the thousand sons / word bearers have a heavy Arabian theme going on.

Well, GW most likely has their painters in Nottingham, and they probably take the simple route by painting their soldiers like themselves. I've seen marines with other skin colors; people usually just paint their own skin color.

true

Commisar Wolfie wrote:Another way to look at it is this. The Primarchs were made by the Emperor who used some of his own genetic material to create them. Since the Emp was white it stands to reason that the primarchs then would also be white (barring any mutations to the gene code). Thus since all space marines are created by using the genetic material from their primarch which supplants the person's original genetic code then they would take ater the primarchs. So the reason why all space marines are white (except those with genetic mutation) is becasue the Emp who created them all created them with his own genetic material which included being white.

The emperor is born in central Anatolia or so he tells Horus so technically hes an Arab, but Arabian people are quite genetically diverse with hair colors that go from red to blonde to black and complexions that go from fair to dark. So would make sense the Primarchs are a bit of a mixed bag.

Pasty-fat-neckbearded-nerd troll attempt from the OP, but a fun topic regardless.

Space Marines look Anglo-Saxon, which if you were making professional soldiers from a seed of people, would be the obvious choice from Earth.

Movac wrote:Pasty-fat-neckbearded-nerd troll attempt from the OP, but a fun topic regardless.

Space Marines look Anglo-Saxon, which if you were making professional soldiers from a seed of people, would be the obvious choice from Earth.

Why?

Absolutely nothing about that statement is as self-evident as you seem to think it is.

It's mentioned in the HH novels (A Thousand Sons I think) that part of an astarte's biological enhancement is their skin pigment automatically adapts according to environmental conditions and ambient light, so paint them any colour you want.

Daedricbob wrote:It's mentioned in the HH novels (A Thousand Sons I think) that part of an astarte's biological enhancement is their skin pigment automatically adapts according to environmental conditions and ambient light, so paint them any colour you want.

Great point. And obvious CYA by GW.

Hmmmn...

bubbacron wrote:

Daedricbob wrote:It's mentioned in the HH novels (A Thousand Sons I think) that part of an astarte's biological enhancement is their skin pigment automatically adapts according to environmental conditions and ambient light, so paint them any colour you want.

Great point. And obvious CYA by GW.

What's CYA?

Im going to go on a limb and say cover your bum

The Unforgiven Saint wrote:Im going to go on a limb and say cover your bum

Ah yes, that makes sense.

Imagine727 wrote:I have noticed something about 40k, that all the space marines are Caucasian. I would be able to overlook this, only the only space marines of non-white origin, the salamanders, are classed as mutated. I want a discussion, not someone trying to rationalize it, and say racism is non existent. The fact that the greatest heroes of humanity are white, and the only black ones are mutated makes me feel there is some sort of institutional racism or racial preference.

All Space Marines are mutants, and one of their mutations is extremely photochromic skin that leaves them albinos in darker conditions, and jet black in direct sunlight. The Salamanders have a defective version of that mutation, and so are locked on "direct sunlight" mode permanently. No 40K character can be said to be Caucasian in origin either, as any touch of the already nebulous modern racial definitions would be long since overridden by new local selective pressures or environmental effects; after all, to my knowledge modern physical divergence is younger than the time humanity has been spread throughout the galaxy by the forty-first Millennium, so any given planet would have its own unique traits, and locales within a single planet would likely have their own traits too, regardless of the origin of the initial colonists.

Remember that some legions piont toward a certain ethnic group in their background. The white Scars are Mongolian raiders while the Thousand Sons are Egyptian, Imperial Fists based on the German Junker system and so on. As I remember it in First Heretic Colchis was described as being akin to the environment of the Cradle of Civilisation, thus the WB homeworld would be more Mesopitanian.

It's clear from the timbre of the topic creator's posts that he's not looking for actual discussion, he just wants to sling around accusations of racism. Glad to know that trolls come in all colors.

I know a few black gamers that have nothing but white guys in their Space Marine armies. I'll be sure to inform them that they're being racists.

There's a black remberancer in the first Horus Heresy, isn't there? And there's a black inquisitor in Space Wolves trilogy, can't remember exactly which book. And a black commissar in Cadian Blood. I think the daughter in the Rogue Trader novels has Hispanic skin iirc. There's a good few if you look. They're just the ones off the top of my head.

The way I've had it explained to me is it depends on the conditions of the home planet. Most are Caucasian because there's not a lot of direct sunlight when you're on a forgeworld or hive world.

My first two Cadian Regiments I use about four/five different shades of skin. I found out Cadians have pale skin with violet eyes, like the natives of Cadia had, after I'd painted those first lots. So I figure those particular regiments were mainly raised from around a starport. Or something

So yeah, paint them however you like. But if you look into the fluff, you will find diversity of ethnicity there.

Racism is a word thrown about too easily these days. Without absolute balance between every colour, it's racism.
This is the same. Without any black Space Marines, the development team is a bunch of racist nerds.
Hah. Not, they really aren't. They're all white, the majority of the player base is white. The majority of the market is in the west, predominately Caucasian in ethnicity, so naturally the characters in the media will be white as that's how the development team and the player base will paint their miniatures and describe their characters in books. That's how I do it.
Another thing as well, take this however you want. Outside of an automatic preference, I consciously prefer Space Marines to be white after I prefer helmets to be on. I'd likely never paint a black Marine. The is obviously a purely aesthetic preference, I have nothing against an actual black human.

I get it now, so quoting my original posts and replying has no effect.

Imagine727 wrote:I get it now, so quoting my original posts and replying has no effect.

Welcome to the Internet.

lol

I always thought white scars were not white, most the art work has them as Asians,
http://images3.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20110225101804/warhammer40k/images/c/c3/White_Scars_Marines.jpg

Depending of the chapter they could be all white, mix or any other colour. Imperial fists get people from all over the place salamanders from the same sector, White scars get their dudes from different tribes on their homeplanet,

Why do all the space wolves have such big mighty beards?!?!
in the end you make up the fluff for your own army if you carnt find one that already suits you. I think its silly to ask why their all white, im sure its not a big hidden plot to make everyone think that to be a space marine you gotta be white and there for only whites can be in an army, they put in the salamanders , White scars, so thats black and Asians and the rest are mostly mixes

I may be late, but I'd like to weigh in all the same...

There are several reasons for the preponderance of white dudes in the 41st millenium. Firstly, as has been said, GW is made up of pasty white British blokes. Unconsiously, these guys just paint up white guys. Partly because it doesn't occur to them that unless the army is specifically ethnic (White Scars) it can be a color other than white. And partly because I'm sure on some level they wish they were the guys in the power armor.

Secondly, non-white skin is a pain to paint with GW paints. I've tried it. I know people who have tried it. Most of them go back to painting white dudes cause it's easier. I'm kind of stuck because I want my Tallarn army to look fething Middle Eastern, instead of looking like the studio army, ie: a bunch of white dudes dressed like Lawrence of Arabia.

I still haven't got the skin tones to look right >.<

Thirdly, they may be overly-concerned about the possibility of a discrimination-based lawsuit. Basically, the White Scars are Mongolian Horse Raiders, because the Mongolian Horse Raiders are no longer around to sue them if they get offended by GW's portrayal of them. But black people are still around, and they might take offence at GW's portrayal of Salamanders as being a bunch of black guys, so they retcon them into beefy Drow.

Are/were black people offended by the portrayal of black people as Salamanders? I don't know any who were. I know one who picked up a Salamanders army specifically because they were black. But I don't know anyone who complained about it. That doesn't mean that GW's lawyers weren't concerned about the possibility. They make a fair chunk of money in the USA, and we tend to be a little lawsuit-crazy over here. Maybe that was their concern. Or maybe some white jackass showed up at a Grand Tourney with a Salamanders army led by O.J. Simpson, and ruined it for the rest of us.

So the retcon of Salamanders from black guys to Drow probably wasn't "We is GW and we hates us some black people, hur hur..." it was probably more "Oh crap, if somebody says the Salamders are racist, we could end up fighting off a lawsuit and bad publicity. Better make 'em Drow. Drow can't sue us! BRILLIANT!"

That addresses the preponderance of white dudes in the art and in the models. Yes, the written works and the video games are much more ethnically diverse, but the face of Warhammer that most people see is the artwork and the models. The books are for those of us that are hard-core. We read them and know that Warhammer isn't racist.

Your parents don't read the books and only look at the pictures and think "Sure are a lot of white guys in the future..." It's these people that I think would be most likely to see racism where there is none, as they are not involved in the hobby, and therefore don't know all the details, like the fact that most Marines have skin that automatically changes color depending on the amount of UV radiation (sunlight) they are exposed to (it's one of their genetic implants... check the 3rd edition SM codex). Yeah, the Salamanders and Raven Guard got stuck on the Drow and Emo settings, but that's part of their visual character now.

Is it all really racism? I don't think so. Not anymore than it's misogyny that there are so few female IG models, despite fluff stating that there are many women in the Guard, too. Yes, it can look like racism from some angles, and it certainly doesn't help when the occasional depiction of a non-white person does show up (Codex: Jungle Fighters, I'm looking at you) to highlight just how rare those depictions are. But if I thought the game was run by Neo-Nazis, the Klan, or the Aryan Brotherhood, I would drop GW like a syphilitic Daemonette, and start playing Warmahordes in an instant.

Gonna toss this wrench into the works here...

In my Dark Heresy game, I have the following players (letters only, no names given to protect the innocent):

J, a white man in his early 30s, plays the Interrogator
D#1, a black man in his mid 30s, plays the Ogryn Guardsman
D#2, a white guy in his early 40s, plays a Tech Priest
K, a white female in her early 20s, plays the female Moritat Reaper Assassin
S#1, a white female in her mid-30s, plays the cyborg Vindicare Assassin girl
S#2, a Latino/Asian/Caucasian Mutt in his late 20s, plays the Psyker
M, a white male in his mid 30s, plays another Tech-Priest
P, a white male in his mid-30s (me), plays everything and everyone else as the GM.

Interesting to note, the black male player in my group previously played an Arbiter (before his valiant sacrifice to save the others of the retinue) who, I assumed, was black because the player was black.

When D#1 brought in his miniature, you can imagine my surprise when I learned that the Arbiter was white!

I'm not going to engage on the ethnicity point, since Dakka really isn't the place for serious discussion of such things. That being said, I though to quickly address the following, and I apologize if someone already caught it.

Kanluwen wrote:And you have to admit the majority of the world's population falls under what many would consider "white guys". .

This isn't even remotely true. As has been said, the majorities of the English, American, and GW staff populations are comprised by white guys, but not the world population. It isn't even close.

Just talkin' facts...

Mercadian Masque wrote:I'm not going to engage on the ethnicity point, since Dakka really isn't the place for serious discussion of such things. That being said, I though to quickly address the following, and I apologize if someone already caught it.

Kanluwen wrote:And you have to admit the majority of the world's population falls under what many would consider "white guys". .

This isn't even remotely true. As has been said, the majorities of the English, American, and GW staff populations are comprised by white guys, but not the world population. It isn't even close.

Just talkin' facts...

If you want to talk facts, then I'd suggest you not start with "Caucasian" whilst only mentioning the United Kingdom and United States populations.

Most of Europe, large swathes of South America(Brazil, for example), a large portion of Russia(fun fact: where do you think the Caucasian moniker comes from?), a chunk of Australia, New Zealand, South Africa, and most of Canada, and parts of the Ivory Coast are considered 'Caucasian' descent.

Just saying.

Kanluwen wrote:
If you want to talk facts, then I'd suggest you not start with "Caucasian" whilst only mentioning the United Kingdom and United States populations.

Most of Europe, large swathes of South America(Brazil, for example), a large portion of Russia(fun fact: where do you think the Caucasian moniker comes from?), a chunk of Australia, New Zealand, South Africa, and most of Canada, and parts of the Ivory Coast are considered 'Caucasian' descent.

Just saying.

Perhaps I'm missing your point. I didn't start with 'caucasian;' I used your phrase. Are you trying to say that the majority of the world's population is caucasian? Perhaps you misunderstood my point? I was suggesting that the idea that the people at GW didn't put much thought into race is probably a good one. You need not get snarky and defensive. What am I missing?

OK...lets calm down....

Evolution of skin color
Rogers et al. (2004) performed an examination of the variation in MC1R nucleotide sequences for people of different ancestry and compared the sequences for chimpanzees and humans from various regions of the Earth. Rogers concluded that roughly five million years ago, at the time of the evolutionary separation of chimpanzees and humans, the common ancestors of all humans had light skin that was covered by dark hair.

Over time the hair disappeared to allow better heat dissipation through sweating[3] and the skin tone grew darker to protect from folate depletion to the increased exposure to sunlight.[4] By 1.2 million years ago, shortly after the final speciation of homo sapiens from homo ergaster, the ancestors of all people living today had exactly the same receptor protein as modern Africans.[43] Evolutionary pressure meant that any gene variations that resulted in lighter skin were unable to survive under the intense African sun, and human skin remained dark for the next 1.1 million years.

Approximately 70,000–100,000 years ago modern humans began to migrate away from the tropics to the north where they were exposed to less intense sunlight, possibly in part due to the need for greater use of clothing to protect against the colder climate. Under these conditions there was less photodestruction of folate and so the evolutionary pressure stopping lighter-skinned gene variants from surviving was reduced. In addition, lighter skin is able to generate more vitamin D (cholecalciferol) than darker skin so would have represented a health benefit in reduced sunlight if there were limited sources of vitamin D.[3] Hence the leading hypothesis for the evolution of human skin color proposes that:-

1. From ~1.2 million years ago to less than 100,000 years ago, the ancestors of all people alive were as dark as modern Africans.
As populations began to migrate, the evolutionary constraint keeping skin dark decreased proportionally to the distance North a population migrated, resulting in a range of skin tones within northern populations.

2. At some point northern populations experienced positive selection for lighter skin due to the increased production of vitamin D from sunlight and the genes for darker skin disappeared from these populations.

3. The genetic mutations leading to light skin, though different among East Asians and Europeans,[25] suggest the two groups experienced a similar selective pressure due to settlement in northern latitudes.[5]

There is a long-standing hypothesis that the selection for lighter skin due to higher vitamin D absorption occurred soon after the Out of Africa migration sometime before 40,000 years ago. A number of researchers disagree with this and suggest that the northern latitudes permitted enough synthesis of vitamin D combined with food sources from hunting to keep populations healthy, and only when agriculture was adopted was there a need for lighter skin to maximize the synthesis of vitamin D. The theory suggests that the reduction of game meat, fish, and some plants from the diet resulted in skin turning white many thousands of years after settlement in Europe and Asia.[44][45] This theory is supported by a study into the SLC24A5 gene which found that the allelle associated with light skin in Europe may have originated as recently as 6,000–10,000 years ago[23] which is in line with the earliest evidence of farming.[46]



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So? The race known as "white", "caucasian" or whatever today might be as young as 6.000-10.000 years. 40K clearly covers a larger time period. In short, ethnicity might not mean much.. or have evolved in rather radical new ways, especially if one considers the spread to different planets (considering how moving about a little on just one planet creates such drastic effects). Not to mention the Warp, Chaos and perhaps some Alien cross-breeding. The dominant ethnicity of 40K might well be pink-skinned with purple stripes.

I read through the first page and missed the rest of the thread, but in case no one has mentioned it already, the Salamanders chapter is not 'black guys' in the sense of African-descent.

They are, quite literally, fire giants based on Nordic archetypes; blackened skin and glowing red eyes, skilled craftsmen and powerful warriors.

This changed a bit between 4th and 5th editions as the artwork went from brown-skinned normal-looking guys with hair in corn rows (clearly urban African heritage-esque) to the current depiction with coal black skin and glowing red eyes.

As to what 'color' SM tend to be, GW fluff has made it pretty clear that they will produce whatever amount of melanin is suitable to their environment. Because they have a tendency to wear full body-covering armor that seals them away from sunlight, they generally tend to be pale.

Imagine727 wrote:I have noticed something about 40k, that all the space marines are Caucasian. I would be able to overlook this, only the only space marines of non-white origin, the salamanders, are classed as mutated. I want a discussion, not someone trying to rationalize it, and say racism is non existent. The fact that the greatest heroes of humanity are white, and the only black ones are mutated makes me feel there is some sort of institutional racism or racial preference.

4 things to say to this:

1. WHITE SCARS

2. race is not white guys and black guys, race is the genetic composition of groups of humans that have been seperated. GW make the easy story move of making each world have its own single race (whih isn't that hard to believe due to tech level allowing movement across the planet allowing for a migration of genetics)

3. most space marines recruit from feral worlds, with uncivilised populations, if GW made alot of worlds with non-white populations they would get a storm of 'their a bunch of racists' complaints.

4. space marines are not human, they are heavily effected by the chapters genessed, any chapter that has stable geneseed has no fixed skin colour. They will also resemble the primarch of origin to some extent due to the geneseed (some features of race are seen in bone structure, so having your bone structure completely changed will make you different )

This thread is DONE! SO STOP BLOODY ANSWERING TO MY OLD COMMENTS!

You don't have a choice unfortunately. Don't make the post if you don't want a response, or ask for a thread lock. There's also no need to get angry either, considering the original post was horribly misguided.