So after reading Thousand Sons, and a few other HH novels, the emperor banishes librarians and all other pysker users (With exceptions to navigators IIRC) from the Astartes Legions, yetttt Librarians are very much still used in the chapters, can anyone enlighten me as to when the emperor decides to change his mind and allow SM pysker use?
You know, I'm curious about the whole 'Ruling of Nikaea'.
In it, we have the Emperor declaring that Psykers, especially those in the Legions, were to be outlawed.
And yet, the Rune Priests of the Space Wolves were still allowed.
Is this because the Wolves were originally designed to hunt down other Legions, or was it truly thought that their 'Rune Magic' was different from, say, the Thousand Sons' psyker abilities?
Ahhh alright then, sooo what exactly happened to the librarians when they were orginally banished? Did they just fight like normal astartes and not use their powers?
No not really...
Which is why plenty of people dislike the Legion because of it.
Though it has been said the Emperor specifically said Librarians which the Rune Priests were not so... RaW over RaI?
purplefood wrote:Though it has been said the Emperor specifically said Librarians which the Rune Priests were not so... RaW over RaI?
ROFL, that is hilarious.
But yeah, basically that's what it amounted to. The Space Wolves didn't believe they used psychic powers or the Warp, but rather some vague jibberjabber about the cycle of life and death of Fenris or whatever. However, the ritualistic and ward-based practices of the Wolves do seem to be a somewhat "safer" way to channel the Warp.
As for the return of the Librarius department, as well as Primaris Psykers and Psyker Battle Squads, and the Grey Knights being hardcore radicals now, it's just something that will have to be reconciled in future fluff. I've seen people say Malcador changed the ruling out of necessity, but then it really makes that whole Prospero incident a big oops. I really do hope Valdor kills himself in shame once he returns to the ruins of the Imperial Palace after expending all that effort to kill the Emperor's best chance at a non-pyrrhic victory. Oh well.
Ironically it seems the SW belief in their random totems and assorted bits and pieces actually has a small effect on generally pyshichery... that's a word right?
Well, A Thousand Sons actually mentions that. Ahriman notes all the totems and fetishes all over the Wolves (how sad that the models don't reflect their predilection for goofy skin masks), and how the Wolves seem to be surrounded by a Warp-repelling haze that makes them difficult to read. He then comments that belief is a powerful thing, and enough of such small trinkets stacked together can have a real effect.
But thank you for that RAW vs RAI comment, it made my day. Whenever this topic comes up in the future, that will be the answer I give.
According to Lexicanum, the Librarians who were disbanded following Nikaea were returned to their normal battle companies and forbidden to use their powers again. It doesn't mention anything about Malcador the Sigilite repealing the ban, although that seems to make the most logical sense. Nor would this be the first of the Emperor's edicts which are ignored by the Imperium. He expressly forbade his own deification, yet we see how that worked out.
There's a lot of Heresy left to get through, and I have a feeling GW won't forget to tell us why librarians suddenly were kosher again. We'll just have to wait and see.
infinite_array wrote:You know, I'm curious about the whole 'Ruling of Nikaea'.
In it, we have the Emperor declaring that Psykers, especially those in the Legions, were to be outlawed.
And yet, the Rune Priests of the Space Wolves were still allowed.
Is this because the Wolves were originally designed to hunt down other Legions, or was it truly thought that their 'Rune Magic' was different from, say, the Thousand Sons' psyker abilities?
The wolves didn't follow suite because they don't see their Sons of the Storm as psykers and the Thousand Sons, well that's Magnus huge ego in action.
What I would like to know is what happened to the Chaplains appointed in these legions to ensure that psychic powers were not longer used?
After the edict of Nikaea, weren't all the Legions supposed to have these in their ranks?
Doesnt Malcador bring a group of space marine librarians to the Emperor just before the assault on the Vengeant Spirit? The Emperor gives them his blessing I believe. IIRC this is in HH:collected visions.
There is no fluff currently as to what The Emperor did to reinstate Librarians. The Grey Knights, all Psykers, were created on his authority, so it's obvious that he had no problem after The Heresy broke out. Why he did it is easy. The point of Nikea was to stop Librarians from straying too far in their studies of The Warp and discovering Chaos, Magnus and his Thousand Sons in particular were the prime perpetrators. Magnus having already contacted Tzeentch, although he had no idea it was a Chaos God. Once the HH started and Chaos showed itself, Daemons coming from the Warp, attacking Terra, there was no reason to keep it hidden. Why would you not allow the use of a potent weapon when the secret you sought to protect against has been revealed? Necessity caused The Emperor to act.
Ugly Green Trog wrote:Doesnt Malcador bring a group of space marine librarians to the Emperor just before the assault on the Vengeant Spirit? The Emperor gives them his blessing I believe. IIRC this is in HH:collected visions.
He does not bring a group of Space Marine Librarians.
He meets with a group of individuals of "an inquisitive nature". Iacton Qruze 'the Half-Heard', Nathaniel Garro, and the Sister of Silence Amenedera Kendel.
Now, we don't know whether or not this actually IS the founding of the Inquisition proper or a measure that Malcador founded for the Heresy that would later evolve into the Inquisition...but it's not a bad bet to assume it will be the founding of the Inquisition.
The part about the Librarian you might be getting mixed up with the Garro audiobook "Oath of Moment" where Garro recruits an Ultramarine Librarian into his band of individuals.
Librarians were banned from Marine Chapters until Rowboat Girlyman wrote up the Codex Astartes with the compromise ruling that said all psykers must wear a tragically un-hip shade of blue.
This prevented Librarians from cool Chapters from looking cool, as they are the only goofball in the army wearing blue, so all the SM enemies know which guy to shoot at the most. Also, the Ruinous Powers are not attracted to psykers with such poor fashion sense, so SM Librarians no longer had to fear daemonic possesion, as long as they wore blue.
It is for the same reason that Chaplains wear black: so that they will be inherantly more awesome than the guy in blue, and thus the purity of the Chapter is assured.
This is why the Grey Knights are so obviously a Radical Faction now; they are psykers that don't wear blue. If they wore blue, they would not be so quick to use daemon weapons or consort with xenos.
They also wouldn't need to Exterminatus every sorry fether who saw them, because everyone would assume they were Ultramarines.
Rune Magic has always been different from warp magic in Warhammer.
SWs basically use the same type of magic that the Dwarves use in fantasy. The Emprah was cool with that since they didn't tap into the foulness of the black void to get their kicks like the sons did.
purplefood wrote:I'm here to entertain...
Considering Bjorn gets a 5++ from all the wolves believing he is invincible I can see where Ahriman is coming from...
So I guess the next SW codex will give them 'da red wunz go fasta.'
purplefood wrote:I'm here to entertain...
Considering Bjorn gets a 5++ from all the wolves believing he is invincible I can see where Ahriman is coming from...
So I guess the next SW codex will give them 'da red wunz go fasta.'
Well if you believe the current Internet ideology the next codex will give them wolfy wunz go faster...
BeefCakeSoup wrote:Rune Magic has always been different from warp magic in Warhammer.
SWs basically use the same type of magic that the Dwarves use in fantasy. The Emprah was cool with that since they didn't tap into the foulness of the black void to get their kicks like the sons did.
They most certainly use Warp energy like everyone else.
And the foulness of the black void is where all the good stuff is!
Ugly Green Trog wrote:Doesnt Malcador bring a group of space marine librarians to the Emperor just before the assault on the Vengeant Spirit? The Emperor gives them his blessing I believe. IIRC this is in HH:collected visions.
He does not bring a group of Space Marine Librarians.
He meets with a group of individuals of "an inquisitive nature". Iacton Qruze 'the Half-Heard', Nathaniel Garro, and the Sister of Silence Amenedera Kendel.
Now, we don't know whether or not this actually IS the founding of the Inquisition proper or a measure that Malcador founded for the Heresy that would later evolve into the Inquisition...but it's not a bad bet to assume it will be the founding of the Inquisition.
The part about the Librarian you might be getting mixed up with the Garro audiobook "Oath of Moment" where Garro recruits an Ultramarine Librarian into his band of individuals.
I don't think so I have listened to oath of the moment and am pretty sure thats not what I am thinking of, I thought Malcador met with those three at the end of FotE not the Emperor? It's been ages since I read collected visions though and I don't own a copy so I may well be wrong but I didnt think those three were mentioned in the passage I was thinking of, I remember something about a white scar though.
BeefCakeSoup wrote:Rune Magic has always been different from warp magic in Warhammer.
SWs basically use the same type of magic that the Dwarves use in fantasy. The Emprah was cool with that since they didn't tap into the foulness of the black void to get their kicks like the sons did.
Srsly though, every ant with a meager soul worth eating is connected in someway to the warp.. With Runes, its a practice you can connect to the warp, but they aren't the same as reaching into the warp! Its a practice that circumvents the dangers of warp tampering by using runes to knock out "spells" in 40K, the wolves use the "safe" version while the Sons use the "hook me up to a battery and see what happens" version of magic.
While you could call them both heresy think of it like this... The IoM uses the warp to travel.. does that make them followers of the Chaos Gods? No. Yet the warp is a tool they use in a certain capacity, the wolves/sons used the warp in two very different ways and the sons ended up paying for it.
You could argue that the runes used by the Rune Priests have some kind of power (Similar to the process used in making GK power armour) which helps them keep safe during their general Psychikery.
Runes aren't their only source of power. They still use the Warp when conjuring storms or lightning during battle. I agree that their methods are different, so the Wolves have it safer, but their ways are stooped in the tribal beliefs of the native Fenrisians. Borderline Heresy for a group of Space Marines.
BeefCakeSoup wrote:
Srsly though, every ant with a meager soul worth eating is connected in someway to the warp.. With Runes, its a practice you can connect to the warp, but they aren't the same as reaching into the warp! Its a practice that circumvents the dangers of warp tampering by using runes to knock out "spells" in 40K, the wolves use the "safe" version while the Sons use the "hook me up to a battery and see what happens" version of magic.
While you could call them both heresy think of it like this... The IoM uses the warp to travel.. does that make them followers of the Chaos Gods? No. Yet the warp is a tool they use in a certain capacity, the wolves/sons used the warp in two very different ways and the sons ended up paying for it.
No. Just... no.
One: The Wolves don't just use runes for their powers, actual physical rune use seems to be limited to telling the future and the like (basically a local variation on the Emperor's Tarot). Calling storms and throwing lightning is done by the more traditional technique of waving the arms around and looking mean, maybe yelling too.
Two: Anything involving magic in 40k involves the warp, and anything involving the warp is dangerous. Has to be dangerous. The whole 40k setting falls flat on it's face if there is any way to safely tap into the warp. If that happens, then you lose all the tension between the necessity of psykers for warp travel and FTL communication, and the fact that they're all a bunch of walking timebombs. The fact that the warp is absolutely necessary for the continued existance of the Imperium, and at the same time it's greatest threat is a core foundation to the story. Attempting to give the Space Wolves 'safe' rune based magic, in addition to dialing the Mary-Sue up to eleven, strikes a mortal blow to the core of the setting.
BeefCakeSoup wrote:Runes conjure magics based on etching.
Warp based magic is tapped from the warp itself, in fantasy they are the difference between real magic and fake magic (Elves - Dwarves).
In 40K they are the difference between heresy and w/e. (Sons - Wolves)
Fantasy and 40K have nothing to do with one another. There is no such thing as "magics based on etching" in 40K, everything stems from the Warp. The closest thing would be Enuncia, and that's probably even more heretical than daemonic pacts.
Everything about Space Wolves' not using the warp to do psyker stuff is, of course, directly contradicted by A Thousand Sons. They use the warp to power their Librarian goodness, same as everybody else, and runes have nothing to do with it.
I think the big E got mad at the 1k son's because of the use of the beings they used to boost their powers.(Can't remember their names been some time since reading the book) He probably saw how close to daemon craft it was and got to the point of "That's no good Lucy" so stopped it. Which in the end he was right because in the final fight in A Thousand Sons they posses a large portion of the sons and go on a wolf killing spree. Yet, no matter what the wolves say they still used the warp.
It's easy enough to re-allow librarians. Here is the scene, Horus is dead and the Emperor is being installed on the Golden Throne. The Emperor is giving instructions on how to modify the throne as he's dieing, but his voice starts to fade out. Last thing he says is for Dorn to go grab a psyker from someplace to allow him to continue to communicate. Dorn shows up with an ex-librarian. The Throne gets built, and one of the last messages from the Emperor is for Dorn and crew to use every tool available (wink-wink, nudge-nudge) to perserve the Imperium. Bonus points if it becomes a sticking point for the adoption of the Codes Astartes, with Dorn forcing Guilliman to add librarians back in there because 'That's what dad would have wanted.'
There's not so much they can do to re-retcon the story of the Thousand Sons to make it look like they weren't setup and sold out by Horus, Russ, Valdor, and the Primordial Annihilator.
jakejackel3 wrote:I think the big E got mad at the 1k son's because of the use of the beings they used to boost their powers.(Can't remember their names been some time since reading the book) He probably saw how close to daemon craft it was and got to the point of "That's no good Lucy" so stopped it. Which in the end he was right because in the final fight in A Thousand Sons they posses a large portion of the sons and go on a wolf killing spree. Yet, no matter what the wolves say they still used the warp.
Tutelaries?
If they were the reason the Emperor banned Librarians, that is sure as hell not the reason he gave.
He basically just said "I should have never told Magnus about the Warp now do what I say or I'll kill you."
He seems to expect mindless obedience on the part of his sons.
squidhills wrote:It is for the same reason that Chaplains wear black: so that they will be inherantly more awesome than the guy in blue, and thus the purity of the Chapter is assured.
purplefood wrote:Though it has been said the Emperor specifically said Librarians which the Rune Priests were not so... RaW over RaI?
ROFL, that is hilarious.
But yeah, basically that's what it amounted to. The Space Wolves didn't believe they used psychic powers or the Warp, but rather some vague jibberjabber about the cycle of life and death of Fenris or whatever. However, the ritualistic and ward-based practices of the Wolves do seem to be a somewhat "safer" way to channel the Warp.
actually,like the 'nids wwho do not wield warp power,i think they didnt either,in game terms its just simplier to use the rules for psykers than give them their own rules.fails could be the wolves saying NO or some like that
squidhills wrote:Librarians were banned from Marine Chapters until Rowboat Girlyman wrote up the Codex Astartes with the compromise ruling that said all psykers must wear a tragically un-hip shade of blue.
This prevented Librarians from cool Chapters from looking cool, as they are the only goofball in the army wearing blue, so all the SM enemies know which guy to shoot at the most. Also, the Ruinous Powers are not attracted to psykers with such poor fashion sense, so SM Librarians no longer had to fear daemonic possesion, as long as they wore blue.
It is for the same reason that Chaplains wear black: so that they will be inherantly more awesome than the guy in blue, and thus the purity of the Chapter is assured.
This is why the Grey Knights are so obviously a Radical Faction now; they are psykers that don't wear blue. If they wore blue, they would not be so quick to use daemon weapons or consort with xenos.
They also wouldn't need to Exterminatus every sorry fether who saw them, because everyone would assume they were Ultramarines.
This is absolutely the worst fluff screw up so far, which is saying a lot for GW. It requires complicated mental gymnastics to explain how the Emperor banned librarians and not just sorcerers, then changed his mind later. Worse, it completely misses the point of the old version, to illustrate starkly the difference between sorcery and psychic powers, which otherwise is unclear.
At this point I just carry my own self-consistent version of the fluff in my head and ignore new codices and most novels. The saving grace of this clunky game has always been the setting, but it really takes away from the universe when nothing makes any damn sense at all.
CalgarsPimpHand wrote:This is absolutely the worst fluff screw up so far, which is saying a lot for GW.
Ah, but things like these are not GW's fault at all. Well, only insofar as that BL is not enforcing stricter continuity.
"It all stems from the assumption that there’s a binding contract between author and reader to adhere to some nonexistent subjective construct or ‘true’ representation of the setting. There is no such contract, and no such objective truth."
- Andy Hoare
"If the developers and other creative folks believe a contribution by an author fits the bill and has an appeal to the audience, why not fold it back into the game world – such as Gaunt’s Ghosts or characters from the Gotrek and Felix series. On the other hand, if an author has a bit of a wobbly moment, there’s no pressure to feel that it has to be accepted into the worldview promulgated by the codexes and army books."
- Gav Thorpe
"I’ve read 40K novels that categorically violate my opinions and perceptions of how 40K works, and I have no trouble ignoring them afterwards."
- Aaron Dembski-Bowden
This whole retcon stems from the Horus Heresy art book, which was done by Alan Merrett, the current overseer of GW's IP. I assume if anyone holds at least some responsibility to make sure everything makes sense, it's him.
Authors write novels or fluff that I disagree with often enough, and I have no problem with it. The problem is not that a major fluff error was introduced in some art book. The problem is that this major error came from the source of all fluff, then was embraced and allowed to proliferate across the Horus Heresy series. Considering how the Horus Heresy series has been influencing recent codices, it will probably be canon soon if it isn't already. That's why it's GW's screw up - they were basically the source and the error was not rectified when they had the chance.
Ahh, yes, if it's flowing back into actual GW Codices that makes it a bit more tricky.
There may still be a chance that this doesn't happen, as I'm sure the actual IP creation process at GW involves more than one employee - and even though Merrett may be in a position where his word is law, he likely values the opinions of colleagues who point out conflicts with earlier material.
It's possible (even likely) that the team working on the art book was much smaller and/or included different writers and so an unintentional mistake was made.
squidhills wrote:Librarians were banned from Marine Chapters until Rowboat Girlyman wrote up the Codex Astartes with the compromise ruling that said all psykers must wear a tragically un-hip shade of blue.
This prevented Librarians from cool Chapters from looking cool, as they are the only goofball in the army wearing blue, so all the SM enemies know which guy to shoot at the most. Also, the Ruinous Powers are not attracted to psykers with such poor fashion sense, so SM Librarians no longer had to fear daemonic possesion, as long as they wore blue.
It is for the same reason that Chaplains wear black: so that they will be inherantly more awesome than the guy in blue, and thus the purity of the Chapter is assured.
This is why the Grey Knights are so obviously a Radical Faction now; they are psykers that don't wear blue. If they wore blue, they would not be so quick to use daemon weapons or consort with xenos.
They also wouldn't need to Exterminatus every sorry fether who saw them, because everyone would assume they were Ultramarines.
This completely logical XD
I am laughing so hard at this.
There's no good evidence to assume that the Space Wolves' psykers - beyond their Fenrisian window-dressing - are substantively different from any other chapters', much less any plausible reason to conclude that they are in fact very tall Dwarven runesmiths in space.
Games Workshop (or rather Black Library) have confused matters, but will doubtless clear them up in a future Horus Heresy novel; odds are it will hinge upon a clearer canonical distinction between 'sorcery' and 'pyschics'.
English Assassin wrote:There's no good evidence to assume that the Space Wolves' psykers - beyond their Fenrisian window-dressing - are substantively different from any other chapters', much less any plausible reason to conclude that they are in fact very tall Dwarven runesmiths in space.
Games Workshop (or rather Black Library) have confused matters, but will doubtless clear them up in a future Horus Heresy novel; odds are it will hinge upon a clearer canonical distinction between 'sorcery' and 'pyschics'.
I firmly draw a solid link between the two for a love of ale and beards.
BeefCakeSoup wrote:Runes conjure magics based on etching.
Warp based magic is tapped from the warp itself, in fantasy they are the difference between real magic and fake magic (Elves - Dwarves).
In 40K they are the difference between heresy and w/e. (Sons - Wolves)
Fantasy and 40K have nothing to do with one another. There is no such thing as "magics based on etching" in 40K, everything stems from the Warp. The closest thing would be Enuncia, and that's probably even more heretical than daemonic pacts.
I've always looked at it like this. All normal psychers reach into the warp with their bare hands and grab the hot coals of magic. Space Wolf runes act as a small barrier, ie they drenched their hands in ice water first.
The protection of runes has been recorded in official doctrine, as such it does exist. But that doesn't mean using the warp is any safer for their Rune Priests when push comes to shove.
Jayden63 wrote:The protection of runes has been recorded in official doctrine, as such it does exist. But that doesn't mean using the warp is any safer for their Rune Priests when push comes to shove.
Where has this actually been stated? The tone of Warhammer 40,000's fluff has always led me to the implication that runes, mystical sigils, invocations to the emperor and the like are at best aids to concentration, and at worst the crass superstitions of those who can only repeat by rote that which they do not truly understand, not things which grant power in their own right.
I would think by now it would be glaringly obvious how this is going to end up playing out. Which legions do we know for sure utilized librarians before Nikaea? Thousand Sons, Night Lords, Salamanders, Dark Angels, White Scars, Blood Angels, Emperor's Children, Word Bearers and ULTRAMARINES. And who basically takes over the Imperium after the Emperor is good and incapacitated? GUILLIMAN.
The judgement of Nikaea went against Guilliman's faction, but why wouldn't he just turn around and reverse it as soon as there's no one left to stop him? Does he seem like the kind of guy who is going to stop doing something his way just because the Emperor told him not to? Afterall, the Emperor decreed that the Astartes would fight as legions and Guilliman goes ahead and does away with that too. I mean he practically threatens to destroy the Imperial Fists when Dorn refuses to do as he's told and adopt the Codex (ref Iron Cage). Now we know that Dorn, Corax, Mortarion and Russ were all vehemently opposed to the use of librarians; Dorn and Corax even refused to fight alongside the Thousand Sons because of this. But look at the Imperial Fists in M41 - they have librarians. So what would have caused Dorn to do a complete 180 and adopt librarians? The Codex of course. And this is why Black Templars, who never adopted the Codex, don't have librarians.
So I think librarians are going to end up being reintroduced by Guilliman after he takes over the Imperium. You know... because he's a traitor.
Abadabadoobaddon wrote:You know... because he's a traitor.
People don't seem to understand that those guys who said that were just playing the traitors in the wargame. It wasn't enormous deal.
They're not only training to fight Horus' forces, but the loyal ones as well, no doubt in the expectation that they very well may end up at war with them when Guilliman makes his power play. And judging by Dorn's reaction this wasn't an unrealistic expectation.
It seems to imply that Guilliman is waiting for a winner to emerge before he steps in and imposes his vision for the "Second Imperium" - a radical new order in which the power of the primarchs and their legions is broken.
To his credit, he doesn't install himself as the "Second Emperor" (though it remains to be seen whether this is due to his magnanimity or simply the Emperor's inconvenient failure to actually die), but his new order does result in his legion (or more accurately its successor chapters) becoming the predominant Astartes, surpassing all others by an order of magnitude. Go figure.
Abadabadoobaddon wrote:It seems to imply that Guilliman is waiting for a winner to emerge before he steps in and imposes his vision for the "Second Imperium" - a radical new order in which the power of the primarchs and their legions is broken.
Reposted from another thread:
Regarding the Imperium Secundus, he was preparing for every eventuality. There were two possible outcomes of the Heresy:
1.) Loyalist forces win. Both sides will be diminished, and someone will have to keep order as well as chase the remnant traitor forces out of the galaxy. AKA The Scouring AKA "What Actually Happened"
2.) The traitors win. The war is not over, however, with the Ultramarines holding a large portion of the galaxy where the dreams and ideals of the Imperium (prosperity, enlightenment, etc.) can survive. AKA what also sort of happened
Omegus wrote:1.) Loyalist forces win. Both sides will be diminished, and someone will have to keep order as well as chase the remnant traitor forces out of the galaxy. AKA The Scouring AKA "What Actually Happened"
This. Why would Guilliman assume that in this scenario the Emperor would be incapacitated? What if the loyalist forces win but the Emperor doesn't agree with Guilliman stepping in and imposing his new order? Afterall, part of his new Codex goes directly against the Emperor's stated intentions (i.e. no librarians). Thus the wargames against the loyalists.
He's not assuming in that case the Emperor is incapacitated. But the Emperor is not about to go on a solo hunting mission around the galaxy to chase down all the traitors.
It always made more sense to me that what the Emperor was ACTUALLY banning was SORCERY, not Psykers. Sorcery involved calling on Warp Spawned beings, pacts, ritualism, and other sorts of acts that take the mind away from the focus needed to repel Chaos, and closer to the mind set that allows it in. Naturally, the Emperor would not want this to happen.
Magnus wanted to keep researching Sorcery because he believed he and his brood were strong enough to repel the corruption (and he was right) and also because he wanted to Know the enemy in order to defeat them. Only Sorcery gave him the strength necessary to propel his avatar far and fast enough through the warp to warn the Emperor of Horus's treachery, but in so doing, he undid the wards surrounding the Webway project the Emperor was working on.
If we see it from this angle, the fluff makes PERFECT SENSE. The Librarians were never outlawed by the Emperor at all. They were merely forbidden from researching sorcery, and were constrained only to strengthening their own human-based psychic powers: an angle the Emperor would have approved of anyway (being all anthro-centric as he was).
I understand that, much like the Book of Genesis, there were two pieces of background story that seem to tell the same tale, but sadly conflict on this matter: one of them says "Sorcery," not "Librarians" or "Psychic Powers."
The only difference is whether or not you're for or against the Imperium.
Listen to gandalf, you can't really ban one without the other. Oh you can use psykers they just can't draw energy from the warp doesn't work. The legions weren't being responsible enough for psykers so no psykers.
Deadshot wrote:but he did exile psykers and was part of every legion untill ther primarch was found.
He was not a member of the legions at all, he was supreme commander of the Empire. Any sanctioned psykers not in the chapters were still allowed like Navigators and such.
infinite_array wrote:You know, I'm curious about the whole 'Ruling of Nikaea'.
In it, we have the Emperor declaring that Psykers, especially those in the Legions, were to be outlawed.
And yet, the Rune Priests of the Space Wolves were still allowed.
Is this because the Wolves were originally designed to hunt down other Legions, or was it truly thought that their 'Rune Magic' was different from, say, the Thousand Sons' psyker abilities?
Read Prospero Burns, in it Leman Russ explains that each Primarch had its particular purpose when the Emperor designed them. Leman Russ was designed to be the Emperor's executioner. The fact that they were present at Nikea, but the Sisters of Silence nulled their psychic signal from Magnus, enforces the Emperor wanted them to stay powerful for that one reason. If any Astartes spoke out, it was Wolf Time!
I swear the idea that the Space Wolves were the Emperor's executioners and that they had already taken out at least one legion is the worst meme since tubgirl.
Abadabadoobaddon wrote:
It seems to imply that Guilliman is waiting for a winner to emerge before he steps in and imposes his vision for the "Second Imperium" - a radical new order in which the power of the primarchs and their legions is broken.
To his credit, he doesn't install himself as the "Second Emperor" (though it remains to be seen whether this is due to his magnanimity or simply the Emperor's inconvenient failure to actually die), but his new order does result in his legion (or more accurately its successor chapters) becoming the predominant Astartes, surpassing all others by an order of magnitude. Go figure.
Here's the thing. That's only a point of drama "during" the Heresy, or to those just ignorant of existing background material.
We, the omniscient reader, know otherwise. Guilliman created the regency of the Imperium and organized the High Lords of Terra. Those High Lords _begged_ Guilliman to declare himself the new Emperor. He refused stating that the Emperor wanted Humanity to be in charge of itself (and as a primarch, he wasn't human).
He broke up the legions and removed them from fleet action to reduce the chances of a second Space Marine insurrection.*
This has been spelled out in Codexes already, it's not conjecture.
*And it worked until Lughft Huron decided to mash a bunch of chapters and PDFs into another legion 10 thousand years later.
CalgarsPimpHand wrote:This is absolutely the worst fluff screw up so far, which is saying a lot for GW. It requires complicated mental gymnastics to explain how the Emperor banned librarians and not just sorcerers, then changed his mind later.
Not really.
The Space Wolves were the Emperor's "wetworks" guys. Their job was to do things that were illegal, immoral, or downright unspeakable. They were allowed to worship false gods (Lorgar got smacked down for deifying the Emperor), embraced the flesh change in their ranks, and killed other Astartes without second thought (something that was unthinkable to right-minded Astartes before the Heresy).
We would later discover that Russ would willingly and gleefully seek to destroy his brother Magnus on the word of the traitor Horus.
Is it really any wonder then that the Space Wolves would continue to use their warp powers against the Edict if they thought that it was in their best interest? The Emperor had never before limited the abuses of the Wolves, and so they had no expectation that the Emperor's rules would ever be binding on them.
HE knows that SW are best used when there in the element which is reckless berserk wolfman type actions,limiting them means they can't be the best them they can be.
"Truly, the separation between psychic power and black magic exists only in the minds of men, and is wholly dependent upon whether the observer views the wonders of the galaxy through the veil of science or sorcery... thusly armoured, a Grey Knight can wield forbidden sorceries, harness taitned artefacts and scour the pages of blasphemous tomes without risk of being overwhelmed by the cursed power at his command".
Daemons are Warp-entities, essentially made up of psychic energy. A Pact with a Daemon might give the pact-maker increased power, but there is no 'magic' within the 40k universe, only psychic powers.
Omegus wrote:He's not assuming in that case the Emperor is incapacitated. But the Emperor is not about to go on a solo hunting mission around the galaxy to chase down all the traitors.
So then why is he training his legion to fight other loyalist legions? The only scenario in which this would be necessary is one in which Horus is defeated; if Horus wins then the Ultramarines fight Horus and his allies, not the loyalists. Now assuming Horus is defeated and the Emperor survives, there are two possibilities which would necessitate fighting other loyalist legions:
1. Guilliman introduces his Codex Astartes and proposes that all the legions adopt it and be broken up. The Emperor agrees. This causes a handful of loyalist primarchs to oppose the Emperor. The Ultramarines plus those legions in favor of the Codex go to war against those opposed.
2. Guilliman introduces his Codex Astartes and proposes that all the legions adopt it and be broken up. The Emperor disagrees. This causes the Guilliman to oppose the Emperor AND ALL THE OTHER LOYALIST LEGIONS. The Ultramarines go to war against everyone.
I posit that the wargames against the Salamanders are in preparation for scenario number 2. Afterall, why would he be training to fight the Salamanders if it was in preparation for scenario 1? They had already been decimated at Istvaan V. They didn't even have enough battle brothers left to spawn any successor chapters. And they were loyal to the Emperor.
Now it's quite possible that Guilliman has no wish to install himself as Emperor. However, he may be planning to institute his new order by force for the good of the Imperium, even if it means opposing the Emperor.
Nagashek wrote:If we see it from this angle, the fluff makes PERFECT SENSE. The Librarians were never outlawed by the Emperor at all. They were merely forbidden from researching sorcery, and were constrained only to strengthening their own human-based psychic powers: an angle the Emperor would have approved of anyway (being all anthro-centric as he was).
The Emperor explicitly outlaws librarians at Nikaea. Read A Thousand Sons.
infinite_array wrote:"Truly, the separation between psychic power and black magic exists only in the minds of men, and is wholly dependent upon whether the observer views the wonders of the galaxy through the veil of science or sorcery... thusly armoured, a Grey Knight can wield forbidden sorceries, harness taitned artefacts and scour the pages of blasphemous tomes without risk of being overwhelmed by the cursed power at his command".
Daemons are Warp-entities, essentially made up of psychic energy. A Pact with a Daemon might give the pact-maker increased power, but there is no 'magic' within the 40k universe, only psychic powers.
Man, now you have me agreeing with some Ward-fluff, though I also think the previous Space Marine codex had a similar description under the Librarian entry. Really there is no hard and set line that divides 'regular' psyker powers from sorcery. I think the best you can do is define it like obscenity, you know it when you see it. Which means that everyone will see it differently.
For example, what would you say about a process that sucks the life out of hundreds of human sacrifices a day simply to sustain the existance of a creature that demands the worship of the people under it's control? You'd say "Thank the Emperor for the Golden Throne."
As an aside, I prefer to think that the GK's wards and whatnot cause them to burn if they ever fall to corruption. So while the Imperium doesn't have to worry about them falling, they themselves do have to work to keep on the straight and narrow. Gives them a little more tension.
Everyone can become a Sorcerer if you figure out how to commune with the Warp beings to establish a Pact. A Psyker can become a Sorcerer, but so could Joe Schmoe from Hab Block C.
What about daemon summoning, or creating a warp based weapon then? Or, as a huge hypothetical, if you were to travel in the way back machine to when the Eldar gods still existed, would have it been sorcery to gain power by doing a deal with one of them?
biccat wrote:The Space Wolves were the Emperor's "wetworks" guys. Their job was to do things that were illegal, immoral, or downright unspeakable.
Conjecture theory.
The only place we see that is from an old Wolf Priest tasked with impressing a human skald with how awesome Space Wolves are.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Abadabadoobaddon wrote:
Omegus wrote:He's not assuming in that case the Emperor is incapacitated. But the Emperor is not about to go on a solo hunting mission around the galaxy to chase down all the traitors.
So then why is he training his legion to fight other loyalist legions? The only scenario in which this would be necessary is one in which Horus is defeated; if Horus wins then the Ultramarines fight Horus and his allies, not the loyalists. Now assuming Horus is defeated and the Emperor survives, there are two possibilities which would necessitate fighting other loyalist legions:
1. Guilliman introduces his Codex Astartes and proposes that all the legions adopt it and be broken up. The Emperor agrees. This causes a handful of loyalist primarchs to oppose the Emperor. The Ultramarines plus those legions in favor of the Codex go to war against those opposed.
2. Guilliman introduces his Codex Astartes and proposes that all the legions adopt it and be broken up. The Emperor disagrees. This causes the Guilliman to oppose the Emperor AND ALL THE OTHER LOYALIST LEGIONS. The Ultramarines go to war against everyone.
I posit that the wargames against the Salamanders are in preparation for scenario number 2. Afterall, why would he be training to fight the Salamanders if it was in preparation for scenario 1? They had already been decimated at Istvaan V. They didn't even have enough battle brothers left to spawn any successor chapters. And they were loyal to the Emperor.
Now it's quite possible that Guilliman has no wish to install himself as Emperor. However, he may be planning to institute his new order by force for the good of the Imperium, even if it means opposing the Emperor..
This is utter nonsense. We "see" Guilliman's thoughts on the subject. The practice was against everyone, because at that point no one could be trusted. Even among the loyal legions there could have been some who turned (as there were plenty in the traitor legions who did not).
And I absolutely love the last line. Uh, yes, that is indeed quite possible, considering he had an opportunity to do just that and did no such thing.
biccat wrote:The Space Wolves were the Emperor's "wetworks" guys. Their job was to do things that were illegal, immoral, or downright unspeakable.
And the Night Lords and World Eaters did what again? Heck, even the Ultramarines nuked a compliant(ish) city from orbit in order to teach Lorgar a lesson. The Legion that could almost maybe be considered a wetworks shop is Alpha Legion, and that's because they're all cover-ops. In reality though, what we consider to be wetworks would be handled by the same type of people who do our wetworks. Assassins working for Inquisitors (squint real hard and you can think of the CIA as the Ordo Xenos).
biccat wrote:The Space Wolves were the Emperor's "wetworks" guys. Their job was to do things that were illegal, immoral, or downright unspeakable.
Conjecture/fanwanking theory.
The only place we see that is from an old Wolf Priest tasked with impressing a human skald with how awesome Space Wolves are.
Wow, really, "fanwanking theory"? That's...novel.
The Primarchs were given free reign over the direction and conducting of the Great Crusade. They could kill civilians and guard without repercussions, decide to destroy or preserve entire civilizations based solely on their own authority, direct their forces where they best thought they would be used, and generally weren't subject to any restrictions. The only big rules were to advance the Imperium, fight for humanity, and don't feth with your brother Astartes.
The Night Lords, World Eaters, Ultramarines, and Alpha Legion didn't attack their brothers and violate that unwritten law. The Space Wolves were the only ones given the authority to fight against other Astartes.
biccat wrote:The Night Lords, World Eaters, Ultramarines, and Alpha Legion didn't attack their brothers and violate that unwritten law. The Space Wolves were the only ones given the authority to fight against other Astartes.
That's because they were the only ones told to do so. And that is assuming that all the hints and lines in the entire HH series that indicate that the Wolves have fought against Astartes before are accurate.
Omegus wrote:This is utter nonsense. We "see" Guilliman's thoughts on the subject. The practice was against everyone, because at that point no one could be trusted. Even among the loyal legions there could have been some who turned (as there were plenty in the traitor legions who did not).
You mean the part when Guilliman is penning the "Imperium Secundus" before the the "Imperium Primus" is even finished? Or when he admits that "they will call us traitors"?
Omegus wrote:The practice was against everyone, because at that point no one could be trusted. Even among the loyal legions there could have been some who turned (as there were plenty in the traitor legions who did not).
Turned against whom? The Emperor or Guilliman? Because if the Salamanders had wanted to turn against the Emperor they would have had ample opportunity to do so BEFORE they had nearly their entire legion annihilated. The Emperor certainly had no reason not to trust the Salamanders. It's Guilliman who didn't trust them - to go along with his coup.
Ultimately Guilliman's plans are all about Guilliman's vision for the Second Imperium. Not the Emperor's vision for the First. Afterall, the First Imperium failed, as did the Emperor.
Omegus wrote:
Abadabadoobaddon wrote:Now it's quite possible that Guilliman has no wish to install himself as Emperor. However, he may be planning to institute his new order by force for the good of the Imperium, even if it means opposing the Emperor..
And I absolutely love the last line. Uh, yes, that is indeed quite possible, considering he had an opportunity to do just that and did no such thing.
He didn't install himself as Emperor. But he does threaten to go to war with Dorn (who was actually AT TERRA DEFENDING THE EMPEROR, unlike the supposedly loyal Ultramarines) if he doesn't disband his legion. So yeah.
I think Guilliman is planning to implement his new order for the good of the Imperium (as he sees it) regardless of what the Emperor or the other primarchs think, and if that means war then so be it. Thus the wargames.
The Night Lords, World Eaters, Ultramarines, and Alpha Legion didn't attack their brothers and violate that unwritten law. The Space Wolves were the only ones given the authority to fight against other Astartes.
Again, we only hear this from one source, the old Priest. Trying to expound that into some far reaching authority that makes Space Wolves the anti-Space Marine Space Marines is again, pure speculation
watch the language please. ta.
reds8n
Abadabadoobaddon wrote:
Omegus wrote:This is utter nonsense. We "see" Guilliman's thoughts on the subject. The practice was against everyone, because at that point no one could be trusted. Even among the loyal legions there could have been some who turned (as there were plenty in the traitor legions who did not).
You mean the part when Guilliman is penning the "Imperium Secundus" before the the "Imperium Primus" is even finished? Or when he admits that "they will call us traitors"?
Turned against whom? The Emperor or Guilliman? Because if the Salamanders had wanted to turn against the Emperor they would have had ample opportunity to do so BEFORE they had nearly their entire legion annihilated. The Emperor certainly had no reason not to trust the Salamanders. It's Guilliman who didn't trust them - to go along with his coup.
Ultimately Guilliman's plans are all about Guilliman's vision for the Second Imperium. Not the Emperor's vision for the First. Afterall, the First Imperium failed, as did the Emperor.
He didn't install himself as Emperor. But he does threaten to go to war with Dorn (who was actually AT TERRA DEFENDING THE EMPEROR, unlike the supposedly loyal Ultramarines) if he doesn't disband his legion. So yeah.
I think Guilliman is planning to implement his new order for the good of the Imperium (as he sees it) regardless of what the Emperor or the other primarchs think, and if that means war then so be it. Thus the wargames.
Spoiler:
It was to be his greatest work, his Magnum Opus, the undertaking for which he would be forever remembered. Some might consider such sentiment to be vanity on his part, but he knew better. This was a work that would save everything his gene-father had tried to build. Its teachings would form the foundation of what was needed to weather the coming storm.
Selflessness, not pride, guided his hand as he set down decades of accumulated wisdom, each chapter and verse a fragment of his biologically encoded genius, each morsel of imparted knowledge a building block that would combine to form a work immeasurably greater than the sum of its parts. In the wake of the devastation unleashed on Calth, the Legion was looking to him for leadership more than ever. His warriors had suffered a grievous blow to their pride, and desperately needed to see their primogenitor. Helots brought petitions for audiences from his Chapter captains every day, but this endeavour was too important to grant such requests. They did not understand why he sequestered himself away from his sons, but they did not need to understand. All that was required of them was obedience, even when his orders made no sense and seemed as heretical as those that had set the galaxy ablaze.
In all his years of service to his gene-father, he had never faced so terrible a choice. The Imperium was lost. Everything he knew told him so, and this betrayal was the one thing that would save the dream at its heart from extinction.
The body of the Imperium was dying, but the ideals of its foundation could live on. His father would understand that, even if others would not.
Yes, that totally sounds like some megalomaniac planning a coup because he disagrees with his father.
The Night Lords, World Eaters, Ultramarines, and Alpha Legion didn't attack their brothers and violate that unwritten law. The Space Wolves were the only ones given the authority to fight against other Astartes.
Again, we only hear this from one source, the old Priest. Trying to expound that into some far reaching authority that makes Space Wolves the anti-Space Marine Space Marines is again, pure fanwankery.
Abadabadoobaddon wrote:
Omegus wrote:This is utter nonsense. We "see" Guilliman's thoughts on the subject. The practice was against everyone, because at that point no one could be trusted. Even among the loyal legions there could have been some who turned (as there were plenty in the traitor legions who did not).
You mean the part when Guilliman is penning the "Imperium Secundus" before the the "Imperium Primus" is even finished? Or when he admits that "they will call us traitors"?
Turned against whom? The Emperor or Guilliman? Because if the Salamanders had wanted to turn against the Emperor they would have had ample opportunity to do so BEFORE they had nearly their entire legion annihilated. The Emperor certainly had no reason not to trust the Salamanders. It's Guilliman who didn't trust them - to go along with his coup.
Ultimately Guilliman's plans are all about Guilliman's vision for the Second Imperium. Not the Emperor's vision for the First. Afterall, the First Imperium failed, as did the Emperor.
He didn't install himself as Emperor. But he does threaten to go to war with Dorn (who was actually AT TERRA DEFENDING THE EMPEROR, unlike the supposedly loyal Ultramarines) if he doesn't disband his legion. So yeah.
I think Guilliman is planning to implement his new order for the good of the Imperium (as he sees it) regardless of what the Emperor or the other primarchs think, and if that means war then so be it. Thus the wargames.
Spoiler:
It was to be his greatest work, his Magnum Opus, the undertaking for which he would be forever remembered. Some might consider such sentiment to be vanity on his part, but he knew better. This was a work that would save everything his gene-father had tried to build. Its teachings would form the foundation of what was needed to weather the coming storm.
Selflessness, not pride, guided his hand as he set down decades of accumulated wisdom, each chapter and verse a fragment of his biologically encoded genius, each morsel of imparted knowledge a building block that would combine to form a work immeasurably greater than the sum of its parts. In the wake of the devastation unleashed on Calth, the Legion was looking to him for leadership more than ever. His warriors had suffered a grievous blow to their pride, and desperately needed to see their primogenitor. Helots brought petitions for audiences from his Chapter captains every day, but this endeavour was too important to grant such requests. They did not understand why he sequestered himself away from his sons, but they did not need to understand. All that was required of them was obedience, even when his orders made no sense and seemed as heretical as those that had set the galaxy ablaze.
In all his years of service to his gene-father, he had never faced so terrible a choice. The Imperium was lost. Everything he knew told him so, and this betrayal was the one thing that would save the dream at its heart from extinction.
The body of the Imperium was dying, but the ideals of its foundation could live on. His father would understand that, even if others would not.
Yes, that totally sounds like some megalomaniac planning a coup because he disagrees with his father.
Now quit trolling.
Yeah you cant argue with the logic. Some of the cannon is just not up for debate, and the way Gulliman behaved was simply not written as "one blokes opinion" or "a side of the story" it was written "this is what happened"
Gulliman is a good guy. Its right there in black and white, and your fanciful ideas might have made an interesting story, but its not how it happened. You might as well say Horus wasnt really called Horus, he was called Norris and his legion was called the Space Tigers. That's not what the guys who write this stuff say happened.
The Night Lords, World Eaters, Ultramarines, and Alpha Legion didn't attack their brothers and violate that unwritten law. The Space Wolves were the only ones given the authority to fight against other Astartes.
Again, we only hear this from one source, the old Priest. Trying to expound that into some far reaching authority that makes Space Wolves the anti-Space Marine Space Marines is again, pure fanwankery.
Abadabadoobaddon wrote:
Omegus wrote:This is utter nonsense. We "see" Guilliman's thoughts on the subject. The practice was against everyone, because at that point no one could be trusted. Even among the loyal legions there could have been some who turned (as there were plenty in the traitor legions who did not).
You mean the part when Guilliman is penning the "Imperium Secundus" before the the "Imperium Primus" is even finished? Or when he admits that "they will call us traitors"?
Turned against whom? The Emperor or Guilliman? Because if the Salamanders had wanted to turn against the Emperor they would have had ample opportunity to do so BEFORE they had nearly their entire legion annihilated. The Emperor certainly had no reason not to trust the Salamanders. It's Guilliman who didn't trust them - to go along with his coup.
Ultimately Guilliman's plans are all about Guilliman's vision for the Second Imperium. Not the Emperor's vision for the First. Afterall, the First Imperium failed, as did the Emperor.
He didn't install himself as Emperor. But he does threaten to go to war with Dorn (who was actually AT TERRA DEFENDING THE EMPEROR, unlike the supposedly loyal Ultramarines) if he doesn't disband his legion. So yeah.
I think Guilliman is planning to implement his new order for the good of the Imperium (as he sees it) regardless of what the Emperor or the other primarchs think, and if that means war then so be it. Thus the wargames.
Spoiler:
It was to be his greatest work, his Magnum Opus, the undertaking for which he would be forever remembered. Some might consider such sentiment to be vanity on his part, but he knew better. This was a work that would save everything his gene-father had tried to build. Its teachings would form the foundation of what was needed to weather the coming storm.
Selflessness, not pride, guided his hand as he set down decades of accumulated wisdom, each chapter and verse a fragment of his biologically encoded genius, each morsel of imparted knowledge a building block that would combine to form a work immeasurably greater than the sum of its parts. In the wake of the devastation unleashed on Calth, the Legion was looking to him for leadership more than ever. His warriors had suffered a grievous blow to their pride, and desperately needed to see their primogenitor. Helots brought petitions for audiences from his Chapter captains every day, but this endeavour was too important to grant such requests. They did not understand why he sequestered himself away from his sons, but they did not need to understand. All that was required of them was obedience, even when his orders made no sense and seemed as heretical as those that had set the galaxy ablaze.
In all his years of service to his gene-father, he had never faced so terrible a choice. The Imperium was lost. Everything he knew told him so, and this betrayal was the one thing that would save the dream at its heart from extinction.
The body of the Imperium was dying, but the ideals of its foundation could live on. His father would understand that, even if others would not.
Yes, that totally sounds like some megalomaniac planning a coup because he disagrees with his father.
Now quit trolling.
Actually, it sounds like he's trying to justify it to himself. In fact it sounds a lot like Magnus.
The Night Lords, World Eaters, Ultramarines, and Alpha Legion didn't attack their brothers and violate that unwritten law. The Space Wolves were the only ones given the authority to fight against other Astartes.
Again, we only hear this from one source, the old Priest. Trying to expound that into some far reaching authority that makes Space Wolves the anti-Space Marine Space Marines is again, pure fanwankery.
Abadabadoobaddon wrote:
Omegus wrote:This is utter nonsense. We "see" Guilliman's thoughts on the subject. The practice was against everyone, because at that point no one could be trusted. Even among the loyal legions there could have been some who turned (as there were plenty in the traitor legions who did not).
You mean the part when Guilliman is penning the "Imperium Secundus" before the the "Imperium Primus" is even finished? Or when he admits that "they will call us traitors"?
Turned against whom? The Emperor or Guilliman? Because if the Salamanders had wanted to turn against the Emperor they would have had ample opportunity to do so BEFORE they had nearly their entire legion annihilated. The Emperor certainly had no reason not to trust the Salamanders. It's Guilliman who didn't trust them - to go along with his coup.
Ultimately Guilliman's plans are all about Guilliman's vision for the Second Imperium. Not the Emperor's vision for the First. Afterall, the First Imperium failed, as did the Emperor.
He didn't install himself as Emperor. But he does threaten to go to war with Dorn (who was actually AT TERRA DEFENDING THE EMPEROR, unlike the supposedly loyal Ultramarines) if he doesn't disband his legion. So yeah.
I think Guilliman is planning to implement his new order for the good of the Imperium (as he sees it) regardless of what the Emperor or the other primarchs think, and if that means war then so be it. Thus the wargames.
Spoiler:
It was to be his greatest work, his Magnum Opus, the undertaking for which he would be forever remembered. Some might consider such sentiment to be vanity on his part, but he knew better. This was a work that would save everything his gene-father had tried to build. Its teachings would form the foundation of what was needed to weather the coming storm.
Selflessness, not pride, guided his hand as he set down decades of accumulated wisdom, each chapter and verse a fragment of his biologically encoded genius, each morsel of imparted knowledge a building block that would combine to form a work immeasurably greater than the sum of its parts. In the wake of the devastation unleashed on Calth, the Legion was looking to him for leadership more than ever. His warriors had suffered a grievous blow to their pride, and desperately needed to see their primogenitor. Helots brought petitions for audiences from his Chapter captains every day, but this endeavour was too important to grant such requests. They did not understand why he sequestered himself away from his sons, but they did not need to understand. All that was required of them was obedience, even when his orders made no sense and seemed as heretical as those that had set the galaxy ablaze.
In all his years of service to his gene-father, he had never faced so terrible a choice. The Imperium was lost. Everything he knew told him so, and this betrayal was the one thing that would save the dream at its heart from extinction.
The body of the Imperium was dying, but the ideals of its foundation could live on. His father would understand that, even if others would not.
Yes, that totally sounds like some megalomaniac planning a coup because he disagrees with his father.
Now quit trolling.
Actually, it sounds like he's trying to justify it to himself. In fact it sounds a lot like Magnus.
squidhills wrote:Librarians were banned from Marine Chapters until Rowboat Girlyman wrote up the Codex Astartes with the compromise ruling that said all psykers must wear a tragically un-hip shade of blue.
This prevented Librarians from cool Chapters from looking cool, as they are the only goofball in the army wearing blue, so all the SM enemies know which guy to shoot at the most. Also, the Ruinous Powers are not attracted to psykers with such poor fashion sense, so SM Librarians no longer had to fear daemonic possesion, as long as they wore blue.
It is for the same reason that Chaplains wear black: so that they will be inherantly more awesome than the guy in blue, and thus the purity of the Chapter is assured.
This is why the Grey Knights are so obviously a Radical Faction now; they are psykers that don't wear blue. If they wore blue, they would not be so quick to use daemon weapons or consort with xenos.
They also wouldn't need to Exterminatus every sorry fether who saw them, because everyone would assume they were Ultramarines.
Nicholas wrote:If it has then it goes against what it says in the gray knights codex.
Andy Hoare wrote:It all stems from the assumption that there’s a binding contract between author and reader to adhere to some nonexistent subjective construct or ‘true’ representation of the setting. There is no such contract, and no such objective truth.
I understand that Tolkien took decades developing his setting before publishing the stories set within it, and still made mistooks. 40k is an ever-evolving setting designed first and foremost to house a really cool game, and as such things don’t always mesh or translate, or they (actually very occasionally) get changed outright. I know which I’d rather be reading and writing.
^ this is from the comment section of Horus Heresy writer Aaron Dembski-Bowden's blog, by the way.
Nicholas wrote:If it has then it goes against what it says in the gray knights codex.
Andy Hoare wrote:It all stems from the assumption that there’s a binding contract between author and reader to adhere to some nonexistent subjective construct or ‘true’ representation of the setting. There is no such contract, and no such objective truth.
I understand that Tolkien took decades developing his setting before publishing the stories set within it, and still made mistooks. 40k is an ever-evolving setting designed first and foremost to house a really cool game, and as such things don’t always mesh or translate, or they (actually very occasionally) get changed outright. I know which I’d rather be reading and writing.
^ this is from the comment section of Horus Heresy writer Aaron Dembski-Bowden's blog, by the way.
Yeah but generally codex fluff is what overrides the other fluff. So I will believe that over most other pieces.
Nicholas wrote:Yeah but generally codex fluff is what overrides the other fluff. So I will believe that over most other pieces.
I actually tend to think similarly (see the "what is canon" thread) - I was just suggesting that there simply may not always be a solution and, as Andy said, things may not always tie together perfectly. This could also relate to the original purpose of this thread (though the writers may very well still explain this in later books in a way similar to what has been suggested; as far as I know they're not yet finished, are they?).
This is what I've always inferred, but I can't recall on what I've based that inference. Has it been explicitly stated anywhere?
If it has then it goes against what it says in the gray knights codex.
The Grey Knights' Codex is eye-bleedingly awful, so would you care to clarify what you mean, or at least spare me the agony of re-reading it with a quotation or a page number?
"Truly, the separation between psychic power and black magic exists only in the minds of men, and is wholly dependent upon whether the observer views the wonders of the galaxy through the veil of science or sorcery... thusly armoured, a Grey Knight can wield forbidden sorceries, harness taitned artefacts and scour the pages of blasphemous tomes without risk of being overwhelmed by the cursed power at his command".
Daemons are Warp-entities, essentially made up of psychic energy. A Pact with a Daemon might give the pact-maker increased power, but there is no 'magic' within the 40k universe, only psychic powers.
The Night Lords, World Eaters, Ultramarines, and Alpha Legion didn't attack their brothers and violate that unwritten law. The Space Wolves were the only ones given the authority to fight against other Astartes.
Again, we only hear this from one source, the old Priest. Trying to expound that into some far reaching authority that makes Space Wolves the anti-Space Marine Space Marines is again, pure fanwankery.
Abadabadoobaddon wrote:
Omegus wrote:This is utter nonsense. We "see" Guilliman's thoughts on the subject. The practice was against everyone, because at that point no one could be trusted. Even among the loyal legions there could have been some who turned (as there were plenty in the traitor legions who did not).
You mean the part when Guilliman is penning the "Imperium Secundus" before the the "Imperium Primus" is even finished? Or when he admits that "they will call us traitors"?
Turned against whom? The Emperor or Guilliman? Because if the Salamanders had wanted to turn against the Emperor they would have had ample opportunity to do so BEFORE they had nearly their entire legion annihilated. The Emperor certainly had no reason not to trust the Salamanders. It's Guilliman who didn't trust them - to go along with his coup.
Ultimately Guilliman's plans are all about Guilliman's vision for the Second Imperium. Not the Emperor's vision for the First. Afterall, the First Imperium failed, as did the Emperor.
He didn't install himself as Emperor. But he does threaten to go to war with Dorn (who was actually AT TERRA DEFENDING THE EMPEROR, unlike the supposedly loyal Ultramarines) if he doesn't disband his legion. So yeah.
I think Guilliman is planning to implement his new order for the good of the Imperium (as he sees it) regardless of what the Emperor or the other primarchs think, and if that means war then so be it. Thus the wargames.
Spoiler:
It was to be his greatest work, his Magnum Opus, the undertaking for which he would be forever remembered. Some might consider such sentiment to be vanity on his part, but he knew better. This was a work that would save everything his gene-father had tried to build. Its teachings would form the foundation of what was needed to weather the coming storm.
Selflessness, not pride, guided his hand as he set down decades of accumulated wisdom, each chapter and verse a fragment of his biologically encoded genius, each morsel of imparted knowledge a building block that would combine to form a work immeasurably greater than the sum of its parts. In the wake of the devastation unleashed on Calth, the Legion was looking to him for leadership more than ever. His warriors had suffered a grievous blow to their pride, and desperately needed to see their primogenitor. Helots brought petitions for audiences from his Chapter captains every day, but this endeavour was too important to grant such requests. They did not understand why he sequestered himself away from his sons, but they did not need to understand. All that was required of them was obedience, even when his orders made no sense and seemed as heretical as those that had set the galaxy ablaze.
In all his years of service to his gene-father, he had never faced so terrible a choice. The Imperium was lost. Everything he knew told him so, and this betrayal was the one thing that would save the dream at its heart from extinction.
The body of the Imperium was dying, but the ideals of its foundation could live on. His father would understand that, even if others would not.
Yes, that totally sounds like some megalomaniac planning a coup because he disagrees with his father.
Now quit trolling.
Actually, it sounds like he's trying to justify it to himself. In fact it sounds a lot like Magnus.
It's talking about him not him talking, so no.
From the same quoted section of Age of Darkness above:
Spoiler:
The Imperium was lost. Everything he knew told him so, and this betrayal was the one thing that would save the dream at its heart from extinction.
The body of the Imperium was dying, but the ideals of its foundation could live on. His father would understand that, even if others would not.
Guilliman believes his father will understand his decision to betray him. And who knows, maybe he's right.
You can't take one word out of an entire quote and take it out of context, yes the word betrayal supports your point, but in the context of the entire quote it does not. He went against what was right for his father in order to help the Imperium which is his father's dream and Guillman knew the Emperor would want his dream to go on without him. If Horus would of won he would not have betrayed the Imperium as his intents were clearly stated in that quote. He made a tactically sound decision and it paid off. If I'm not mistaken the Librarians returned before the Codex came into effect anyway, by the order of Malcador not Guillman.
Nicholas wrote:You can't take one word out of an entire quote and take it out of context, yes the word betrayal supports your point, but in the context of the entire quote it does not. He went against what was right for his father in order to help the Imperium which is his father's dream and Guillman knew the Emperor would want his dream to go on without him.
And that's different from what I said, how exactly? Guilliman is planning to betray the Emperor for the good of the Imperium. If he's not planning to betray the Emperor, then why is he making plans for how the Second Imperium will be organized? Shouldn't that be up to Emperor?
If Horus would of won he would not have betrayed the Imperium as his intents were clearly stated in that quote.
If Horus had won there would have been no Emperor to betray.
If I'm not mistaken the Librarians returned before the Codex came into effect anyway, by the order of Malcador not Guillman.
DarknessEternal wrote:Gulliman's motivations are absolutely irrelevant, whether you think he was acting out of his own vanity or complete altruism.
We already know what he ended up doing; refounding the Imperium so humanity could run itself without Space Marine/Primarch interference.
Deeds, not words, clarify what his end goal was.
Speaking of deeds, there's a couple of things I noticed when I was reading about the Ultramarines and their war games:
1) They aren't fighting Word Bearers.
2) They aren't rushing to Terra to try and help their father.
Ever consider that Guilliman might have been so focused on what would be necessary to set up an Imperium Secundus that he fails to take the actions that could have preserved the Imperium Primus?
And to go OT on a thread that's already OT, is there any reason that nobody has ripped on the Ultras for fighting their wargames with fake ammo? Come on, the jokes write themselves. Back while the trator and loyal legions were tearing each other apart with chainsword and bolt shell, the Ultramarines were playing laser tag with each other. Pick up the slack people!
Nicholas wrote:You can't take one word out of an entire quote and take it out of context, yes the word betrayal supports your point, but in the context of the entire quote it does not. He went against what was right for his father in order to help the Imperium which is his father's dream and Guillman knew the Emperor would want his dream to go on without him.
And that's different from what I said, how exactly? Guilliman is planning to betray the Emperor for the good of the Imperium. If he's not planning to betray the Emperor, then why is he making plans for how the Second Imperium will be organized? Shouldn't that be up to Emperor?
If Horus would of won he would not have betrayed the Imperium as his intents were clearly stated in that quote.
If Horus had won there would have been no Emperor to betray.
If I'm not mistaken the Librarians returned before the Codex came into effect anyway, by the order of Malcador not Guillman.
Source?
You implied several times he would have attacked the Emperor and the other loyalists if they had won. That that was why he had waited not because he wanted to protect the Imperium proper. So very different, he calls it a betrayal because he feels he is betraying his father by not helping him, not because he is staging some sort of coup de ta.
I said Imperium not Emperor. The point being he wasn't waiting to see who won first.
Unfortunately that was word of mouth, it was more of a question then a statement just bad typing.
daveNYC wrote:
Speaking of deeds, there's a couple of things I noticed when I was reading about the Ultramarines and their war games:
1) They aren't fighting Word Bearers.
2) They aren't rushing to Terra to try and help their father.
1. That battle was long over by this point.
2. Neither were several of the other loyalist legions. Warp storms cut them off from heading to Terra so they were doing what they could in the areas they in which they were isolated. In other news, neither were any of the Chaos legions. It was several years between the dropsite massacre and the siege of terra.
Ah, the whole "I would have tried to help save my father from being killed by the forces of darkness, but it was all the way over in another segmentum and the traffic was horrible." excuse.
I think that's the problem that people have with the story. It shows the Ultramarines planning for what would happen if all the other loyalists failed, and not working to help the other loyalists succeed. Just what would Guilliman have said if the Emperor had won? "Good job on winning pops, I was making plans to cover things if you'd gotten beaten down but you sure pulled it out."
Every family reunion from there on out would have included a formal ritual of punching Guilliman in the junk before every meal.
After Istvaan, the Ruinous Powers had the Warp on complete lock-down. There was no communication and travel was not safe or timely by any stretch of imagination. The Imperial Fist battle-station was basically marooned in space until the Eisenstein blew its warp drives and cleared out some of the storms, allowing it to arrive on Terra.
The Ultramarines are stated (in the highest level of canon, rulebooks and codices) to have arrived right as the battle was already resolved, along with the Space Wolves and the Dark Angels. Their imminent arrival is proposed as one possible reason why Horus took the gamble of lowering his shields to confront the Emperor. Were the Lion and Russ both planning their own individual coups, as well?
We can get as pedantic and obtuse as we want (oh noes, he used the word betrayal so obviously the whole thing was a devious treacherous plot!), but it doesn't change the facts of what happened.
The Dark Angels arrived late for the Battle of Terra, and proceeded to return home, found half their Legion gone bad, and became catatonic until the Second Founding.
The Space Wolves arrived late for the Battle of Terra, and proceeded to hound the Thousand Sons, the smallest and arguably least dangerous Legion, for the next few centuries.
The Ultramarines arrived late for the Battle of Terra, and proceeded to scour the Imperium of the traitor remnants, ensured another insurrection on such a scale could not occur, and set up the administration that keeps the Imperium together to this day.
Nicholas wrote:You implied several times he would have attacked the Emperor and the other loyalists if they had won.
Only if they refuse to go along with his Imperium Secundus. Note that this is not complete speculation. He actually does issue an ultimatum to the Imperial Fists to disband their legion or face the consequences.
So very different, he calls it a betrayal because he feels he is betraying his father by not helping him, not because he is staging some sort of coup de ta.
I said Imperium not Emperor. The point being he wasn't waiting to see who won first.
He is holding his legion back on Ultramar, conserving their strength and preparing them to fight the other Legions, so that when he advances on Terra he will be able to implement his new order by force if necessary and none will be able to stop him. For the good of the Imperium of course.
DarknessEternal wrote:
daveNYC wrote:
Speaking of deeds, there's a couple of things I noticed when I was reading about the Ultramarines and their war games:
1) They aren't fighting Word Bearers.
2) They aren't rushing to Terra to try and help their father.
1. That battle was long over by this point.
2. Neither were several of the other loyalist legions. Warp storms cut them off from heading to Terra so they were doing what they could in the areas they in which they were isolated. In other news, neither were any of the Chaos legions. It was several years between the dropsite massacre and the siege of terra.
The Dark Angels were fighting the Night Lords on the Eastern Fringe. The Space Wolves and White Scars were fighting the Alpha Legion while trying to get to Terra. The Ultramarines were hanging back on Ultramar conserving their strength while MAKING PREPARATIONS TO FIGHT THE OTHER LOYALISTS.
daveNYC wrote:I think that's the problem that people have with the story. It shows the Ultramarines planning for what would happen if all the other loyalists failed, and not working to help the other loyalists succeed. Just what would Guilliman have said if the Emperor had won? "Good job on winning pops, I was making plans to cover things if you'd gotten beaten down but you sure pulled it out."
This. He is planning on overthrowing the Emperor so that the Emperor's dream (i.e. the Imperium) will survive. Guilliman believes his Second Imperium will succeed where the Emperor's First Imperium failed. Guilliman knows the Emperor will understand. Because up until this point the Emperor has been nothing if not understanding- just ask Lorgar and Magnus.
But seriously, the Emperor would understand. This is because Guilliman is doing exactly what the Emperor would do were the roles reversed. It's stated in The First Heretic that of all the primarchs Guilliman most resembles the Emperor in character. And the Emperor is nothing if not ruthless - he would do absolutely anything to ensure the survival of the Imperium of Man. And so would Guilliman - even if it means betraying his father.
Now just because the Emperor would understand doesn't mean he would just lie down and let Guilliman have his way. Afterall, the other two defining characteristics of the Emperor are hubris and megalomania.
It clearly stated his intentions in the previous quote and it is not what you are saying it is. You took one word out of context and used it as proof I am done arguing this as your theory has been refuted by canon fluff.
To answer OP we will have to wait until the Heresy series is finished most likely to find out how this happened.
The Night Lords, World Eaters, Ultramarines, and Alpha Legion didn't attack their brothers and violate that unwritten law. The Space Wolves were the only ones given the authority to fight against other Astartes.
Again, we only hear this from one source, the old Priest. Trying to expound that into some far reaching authority that makes Space Wolves the anti-Space Marine Space Marines is again, pure fanwankery.
Russ himself stated that Prospero wasn't the first time Marine fought Marine. Sounds like he had some presonal knowledge of that.
Also, Russ was more than willing to go off and fight his brother marines on the second-hand word from Horus. He never thought "holy crap, this goes against everything that is right, I should check with the Emperor!" He had no doubts, unlike every other marine or Primarch that raised his hand against his brother.
You can accept the established fluff at face value, or you can read between the lines and see that the Imperium isn't all unicorns and glitter. The conflict in 40k is between "Chaos" and "Order," not "Good" and "Evil." In many ways, the Imperium engages in great evil.
Omegus wrote:After Istvaan, the Ruinous Powers had the Warp on complete lock-down. There was no communication and travel was not safe or timely by any stretch of imagination. The Imperial Fist battle-station was basically marooned in space until the Eisenstein blew its warp drives and cleared out some of the storms, allowing it to arrive on Terra.
The Ultramarines are stated (in the highest level of canon, rulebooks and codices) to have arrived right as the battle was already resolved, along with the Space Wolves and the Dark Angels. Their imminent arrival is proposed as one possible reason why Horus took the gamble of lowering his shields to confront the Emperor. Were the Lion and Russ both planning their own individual coups, as well?
I'm not saying that Guilliman was planning on stabbing the Emperor in the back. Seriously, no snark at all there. However, the Dark Angels and Space Wolves were both fighting traitor legions, which is part of why they were late. The Ultramarines were playing wargames with each other as they worked out how best to kill Salamanders (all twenty of them that were still alive at that point). It's one thing to plan for failure, it's another thing entirely when your planning for failure ends up ensuring failure. In other words, if the Ultramarines arrived too late, then maybe they should have started the trip earlier.
biccat wrote:Also, Russ was more than willing to go off and fight his brother marines on the second-hand word from Horus. He never thought "holy crap, this goes against everything that is right, I should check with the Emperor!" He had no doubts, unlike every other marine or Primarch that raised his hand against his brother.
Curze almost killed Dorn long before the Heresy over a disagreement. Russ has a history of trying to pick fights with his brothers, and had a personal vendetta against Magnus.
Just a quick comment, I read throughout this pretty quick and didn't hear anything about Black Templars, who as far as I am concerned are the only true followers of what the Emperor put forth, no Librarians for they are the Witch and we will abolish the witch where ever found.
So on a previous note the guys in Black know what's best, shoot the guys in blue(which could mean ultramarines, but it's the same equalivent)
Nicholas wrote:It clearly stated his intentions in the previous quote and it is not what you are saying it is.
What do you think I'm saying his intentions are? It's pretty clear from the quote that his intentions are to save the Imperium through betrayal.
You took one word out of context and used it as proof I am done arguing this as your theory has been refuted by canon fluff.
How? Age of Darkness certainly seems to imply that he's hanging back and preparing for the moment when he can step in and impose his new order after the dust has cleared. And that's exactly what he does in the canon fluff.
I disagree with your basic assumption that the Emperor would object to his plans. The Emperor wasn't omniscient, and he tended to trust his sons for the most part to be autonomous. Guilliman was clearly the superior administrator, and described as most like his father in temperament, so it's more likely the Emperor would not only understand, but approve as well.
‘I have a plan, yes, and it is a dangerous one, too dangerous to divulge for the moment. But when the time comes to put it into action, I must ask you all to trust me as never before. When that time comes, you will be called traitors, cowards and faithless weaklings, but nothing could be further from the truth. I can see no hope in the times ahead for the Imperium as we know it, and that is why I had you fight these mock engagements. However this war plays out, it is inevitable that you will need to fight warriors you count as brothers. Perhaps even those who currently stand in opposition to the Warmaster.’
The way I read the short story, Guilliman acknowledges that his actions may be seen as treasonous, but such an interpretation would only be made by lesser minds that can't grasp the full scope of what's at stake and what he's trying to accomplish. That's far from the mustache-twirling, "muahahaha, I know best and I will force my vision upon the galaxy, muahahahaha!" villain you painted him as in your original posts on the subject.
The Emperor was all about enlightenment and truth, yet Dorn and the Sigilite oversaw the creation of the Inquisition, as well as the policy of ruthlessly squashing the truth "for the good of the Imperium" (read The Last Remembrancer). Were they also traitors?
Omegus wrote:I disagree with your basic assumption that the Emperor would object to his plans. The Emperor wasn't omniscient, and he tended to trust his sons for the most part to be autonomous. Guilliman was clearly the superior administrator, and described as most like his father in temperament, so it's more likely the Emperor would not only understand, but approve as well.
Well I guess that depends on whether or not Guilliman's plans allow for the Emperor to remain as the undisputed master of the Imperium. The Emperor doesn't seem like the kind of guy to gracefully step aside. And the story of the Great Crusade and Horus Heresy is rife with examples of primarchs disobeying their father's stated commandments under the assumption that he would understand and approve, only to find, nope I was wrong, oh crap here come the custodes.
The way I read the short story, Guilliman acknowledges that his actions may be seen as treasonous, but such an interpretation would only be made by lesser minds that can't grasp the full scope of what's at stake and what he's trying to accomplish.
It's called hubris. And it seems to be a common failing in the Emperor and his progeny.
That's far from the mustache-twirling, "muahahaha, I know best and I will force my vision upon the galaxy, muahahahaha!" villain you painted him as in your original posts on the subject.
I never meant to imply he was a "villian". "Mustache-twirling" is always a pisspoor motivation for an antagonist. That's why ADB is awesome and Ben Counter is a hack.
Besides, good is a point of view. Guilliman is trying to force his vision upon the galaxy, like the Emperor before him. Guilliman's motivations are the same as the Emperor's. But here's the point - loyalty to the Emperor is not one of them. Guilliman sees that the Emperor has failed. So now he is assuming the role previously played by the Emperor. Guilliman believes that now only he has the vision to guide humanity along the razor's edge and save them from extinction. This is of course exactly what the Emperor believed, and we see how well that turned out.
The Emperor was all about enlightenment and truth, yet Dorn and the Sigilite oversaw the creation of the Inquisition, as well as the policy of ruthlessly squashing the truth "for the good of the Imperium" (read The Last Remembrancer). Were they also traitors?
But the Emperor was not all about enlightenment and truth. The whole point of Nikaea was to stop Magnus from discovering the truth - that the Imperial Truth was a lie from the very beginning. This is what Dorn realizes in the The Last Remembrancer. But he still remains loyal to the Emperor. So while Guilliman's loyalty is to a dream built on lies, Dorn's loyalty lies with the liar who dreamt it.
This isn't the first time that Omegus has cried out his Ultrafanboism and Space Wolve hate bias. It is his way of crying out that no one else is a special snowflake like the Ultras. I digress however.
Lets look at exactly what the Council of Nikea in A Thousand Sons addressed:
Henceforth, it is my will that no Legion will maintain a Librarius department. All its warriors and instructors must be returned to the battle companies and never again employ any psychic powers.
As much as whining babies want to try and connect, rune priests are not Librarians. Librarians are a completely different element then rune priests. This has been established from Index Astartes articles, fluff, equipment, and even gameplay. Many want to say that they are the same thing so thus fall under the edict, but that is not what the edict states.
No matter how much some specific people hate it, the rune priests were under no obligation to disband or stop doing what they were doing per the edict set by the Emperor at the Council of Nikea.
Brother Ramses wrote:This isn't the first time that Omegus has cried out his Ultrafanboism and Space Wolve hate bias. It is his way of crying out that no one else is a special snowflake like the Ultras. I digress however.
Lets look at exactly what the Council of Nikea in A Thousand Sons addressed:
Henceforth, it is my will that no Legion will maintain a Librarius department. All its warriors and instructors must be returned to the battle companies and never again employ any psychic powers.
As much as whining babies want to try and connect, rune priests are not Librarians. Librarians are a completely different element then rune priests. This has been established from Index Astartes articles, fluff, equipment, and even gameplay. Many want to say that they are the same thing so thus fall under the edict, but that is not what the edict states.
No matter how much some specific people hate it, the rune priests were under no obligation to disband or stop doing what they were doing per the edict set by the Emperor at the Council of Nikea.
I'll put it this way, the ruling at Nikea was about as well written as the rules for the Ulumeathi Plasma Syphon.
Brother Ramses wrote:This isn't the first time that Omegus has cried out his Ultrafanboism and Space Wolve hate bias. It is his way of crying out that no one else is a special snowflake like the Ultras. I digress however.
Lets look at exactly what the Council of Nikea in A Thousand Sons addressed:
Henceforth, it is my will that no Legion will maintain a Librarius department. All its warriors and instructors must be returned to the battle companies and never again employ any psychic powers.
As much as whining babies want to try and connect, rune priests are not Librarians. Librarians are a completely different element then rune priests. This has been established from Index Astartes articles, fluff, equipment, and even gameplay. Many want to say that they are the same thing so thus fall under the edict, but that is not what the edict states.
No matter how much some specific people hate it, the rune priests were under no obligation to disband or stop doing what they were doing per the edict set by the Emperor at the Council of Nikea.
I'll put it this way, the ruling at Nikea was about as well written as the rules for the Ulumeathi Plasma Syphon.
Pretty much.
However to say that rune priests are librarians because both use psychic powers is wrong. They are separate entities with individual differences in fluff and rules.
Ah, your ban must have expired. And back to your old tricks of resorting to personal attacks because your hare-brained theories don't stand up to the cited material. Your mother must be so proud.
iproxtaco wrote:There is no fluff currently as to what The Emperor did to reinstate Librarians. The Grey Knights, all Psykers, were created on his authority, so it's obvious that he had no problem after The Heresy broke out. Why he did it is easy. The point of Nikea was to stop Librarians from straying too far in their studies of The Warp and discovering Chaos, Magnus and his Thousand Sons in particular were the prime perpetrators. Magnus having already contacted Tzeentch, although he had no idea it was a Chaos God. Once the HH started and Chaos showed itself, Daemons coming from the Warp, attacking Terra, there was no reason to keep it hidden. Why would you not allow the use of a potent weapon when the secret you sought to protect against has been revealed? Necessity caused The Emperor to act.
Brother Ramses wrote:This isn't the first time that Omegus has cried out his Ultrafanboism and Space Wolve hate bias. It is his way of crying out that no one else is a special snowflake like the Ultras. I digress however.
Lets look at exactly what the Council of Nikea in A Thousand Sons addressed:
Henceforth, it is my will that no Legion will maintain a Librarius department. All its warriors and instructors must be returned to the battle companies and never again employ any psychic powers.
As much as whining babies want to try and connect, rune priests are not Librarians. Librarians are a completely different element then rune priests. This has been established from Index Astartes articles, fluff, equipment, and even gameplay. Many want to say that they are the same thing so thus fall under the edict, but that is not what the edict states.
No matter how much some specific people hate it, the rune priests were under no obligation to disband or stop doing what they were doing per the edict set by the Emperor at the Council of Nikea.
Beginning with ad hominem attacks is seldom the sign of a strong argument. It is hard to deny that Rune Priests are Space Marines, and that they are psykers; they have (under 5th edition) a different list of powers, but then so do the Blood Angels. Unless you can find canonical statements to the contrary, the conclusion requiring the fewest assumptions is that the difference, as with the White Scars' Storm Seers, is one of the legions' nomenclature, not the psykers' nature.
In that light it would be perfectly reasonable to assume that the Emperor didn't care what individual legions called their Librarians, and used the term generically. Certainly his proscription, framed in terms sufficiently broad that astropaths and navigators had to be specifically excluded from it, would appear to be one against the use of psychic powers by the legions, not against the particulars of their organisation.
Brother Ramses wrote:This isn't the first time that Omegus has cried out his Ultrafanboism and Space Wolve hate bias. It is his way of crying out that no one else is a special snowflake like the Ultras. I digress however.
Lets look at exactly what the Council of Nikea in A Thousand Sons addressed:
Henceforth, it is my will that no Legion will maintain a Librarius department. All its warriors and instructors must be returned to the battle companies and never again employ any psychic powers.
As much as whining babies want to try and connect, rune priests are not Librarians. Librarians are a completely different element then rune priests. This has been established from Index Astartes articles, fluff, equipment, and even gameplay. Many want to say that they are the same thing so thus fall under the edict, but that is not what the edict states.
No matter how much some specific people hate it, the rune priests were under no obligation to disband or stop doing what they were doing per the edict set by the Emperor at the Council of Nikea.
Beginning with ad hominem attacks is seldom the sign of a strong argument. It is hard to deny that Rune Priests are Space Marines, and that they are psykers; they have (under 5th edition) a different list of powers, but then so do the Blood Angels. Unless you can find canonical statements to the contrary, the conclusion requiring the fewest assumptions is that the difference, as with the White Scars' Storm Seers, is one of the legions' nomenclature, not the psykers' nature.
In that light it would be perfectly reasonable to assume that the Emperor didn't care what individual legions called their Librarians, and used the term generically. Certainly his proscription, framed in terms sufficiently broad that astropaths and navigators had to be specifically excluded from it, would appear to be one against the use of psychic powers by the legions, not against the particulars of their organisation.
I think the difference is that while the White Scars believed their Storm Seers to be psykers and analogous to librarians, the Space Wolves did not believe the same for their Rune Priests. Of course the distinction is complete tripe and only exists in the minds of the Space Wolves, but there you have it. So when the Emperor says "no more psychic powers" the Space Wolves continue to use them because they honestly do not believe they are doing so.
Brother Ramses wrote:This isn't the first time that Omegus has cried out his Ultrafanboism and Space Wolve hate bias. It is his way of crying out that no one else is a special snowflake like the Ultras. I digress however.
Lets look at exactly what the Council of Nikea in A Thousand Sons addressed:
Henceforth, it is my will that no Legion will maintain a Librarius department. All its warriors and instructors must be returned to the battle companies and never again employ any psychic powers.
As much as whining babies want to try and connect, rune priests are not Librarians. Librarians are a completely different element then rune priests. This has been established from Index Astartes articles, fluff, equipment, and even gameplay. Many want to say that they are the same thing so thus fall under the edict, but that is not what the edict states.
No matter how much some specific people hate it, the rune priests were under no obligation to disband or stop doing what they were doing per the edict set by the Emperor at the Council of Nikea.
Beginning with ad hominem attacks is seldom the sign of a strong argument. It is hard to deny that Rune Priests are Space Marines, and that they are psykers; they have (under 5th edition) a different list of powers, but then so do the Blood Angels. Unless you can find canonical statements to the contrary, the conclusion requiring the fewest assumptions is that the difference, as with the White Scars' Storm Seers, is one of the legions' nomenclature, not the psykers' nature.
In that light it would be perfectly reasonable to assume that the Emperor didn't care what individual legions called their Librarians, and used the term generically. Certainly his proscription, framed in terms sufficiently broad that astropaths and navigators had to be specifically excluded from it, would appear to be one against the use of psychic powers by the legions, not against the particulars of their organisation.
Considering the I already provided Omegus with Index Astartes articles detailing the difference between librarians and runes priests as well as the difference in their founding to which he pretty much replied, "those are old articles so don't count" there is only one conclusion that you can draw which is exactly what I did.
You only mention the difference in psychic powers not being enough as you then point out Blood Angels powers being different as well. How about you address no psychic hoods on rune priests? How about addressing that rune priests instead have a runic staff/weapon that negates psychic powers completely different from any SM librarian and is a force weapon that also wounds daemons on a 2+?
The simple fact is that rune priests are NOT librarians. Librarians are a product of Magnus' grand dream for humanity. Librarians are a product of the Libraium, founded primarily by Magnus, trained by Magnus and his Thousand Sons. Rune Priests are a product of the Fenrisian shamanistic culture, NOT Magnus or his Libraium program. Per A Thousand Sons,
Henceforth, it is my will that no Legion will maintain a Librarius department. All its warriors and instructors must be returned to the battle companies and never again employ any psychic powers.
Did the Space Wolves ever have a Librarius department? No. Did the Space Wolves ever have warrior and instructors of said Librarius department? No. So what exactly were the Space Wolves to disband and send back to the battle companies?
The retcon has shifted from the unclear banning of boogity boogity sorcery and placed the decree squarely on Magnus' creation(s). The retcon is now a matter of the fruit of the poisoned tree metaphor; Magnus is accused of sorcery hence all he has had his hand in is also poisoned.
Brother Ramses wrote:
The retcon has shifted from the unclear banning of boogity boogity sorcery and placed the decree squarely on Magnus' creation(s). The retcon is now a matter of the fruit of the poisoned tree metaphor; Magnus is accused of sorcery hence all he has had his hand in is also poisoned.
This does sort of make sense, although like I said, it requires some mental gymnastics to arrive at this point.
The old, old fluff was fairly clear - psykers train themselves to channel the warp, sorcery calls on warp entities to grant power. A psyker can also use sorcery, but even non-psykers can engage in sorcery, which is the key distinction. Sorcery requires no inherent talent or ability, only forbidden knowledge. It gives the illusion of control over dangerous entities that will inevitably seek to corrupt or betray you.
So Magnus and his legion routinely called on daemon familiars and forbidden lore, and the Emperor put his foot down. Whether he did this by banning sorcery or by banning Librarians has approximately the same effect: Magnus and his legion had to stop using their powers, which were primarily sorcery-based, and the Librarians in other chapters had to stop employing the training they received from the Thousand Sons. Either way the Space Wolves are exempt - they did not practice sorcery and received no Librarian training. So that is wrapped up, albeit awkwardly.
The real problem is that the old version of the fluff provides a coherent structure, a thread that runs through many other aspects of the game. That key distinction I mentioned earlier is the hinge upon which basically all the warp powers in 40k hang. If you have the natural ability, if you are strong of will, if you train, if you bind your soul to the Emperor, etc etc, then you can wield the power of the warp unaided (with some risk). If you call on the dark powers to aid you, knowingly or not, you may be tremendously powerful in the short term, but you are playing with fire, and you will get burned. It's all warp power, but there is a distinction, and it is important.
In comparison, the retcon is full of holes. Now the Emperor, or someone with sufficient authority, has to reverse the Council of Nikea decision, where previously it was said that the decree still stood in M41. Just one more arbitrary and short-sighted mistake on the Emperor's part, added to a growing list that's piling up in this Horus Heresy series.
Worse, the distinction between psychic talent and using arcane lore to achieve your goals is being blurred, as evidenced by the Mat Ward-ing of the Grey Knight codex:
"Truly, the separation between psychic power and black magic exists only in the minds of men, and is wholly dependent upon whether the observer views the wonders of the galaxy through the veil of science or sorcery... thusly armoured, a Grey Knight can wield forbidden sorceries, harness taitned artefacts and scour the pages of blasphemous tomes without risk of being overwhelmed by the cursed power at his command".
Of course there's no friggin' magic in the 41st Millennium! There's still a big difference between what a Grey Knight psyker does and what a Chaos cultist non-psyker does when they draw on the warp. It's a much bigger difference than the observer's "view". If you don't explain that to people, if you casually drop it from the fluff, then the whole psyker schtick stops making any sort of sense. If you call on an arcane spell, but you have good intentions and believe in science, you're safe? If you do the same thing, but you're thinking naughty thoughts, you're overwhelmed with cursed power? So there's no distinction between a cult using a forbidden ritual to open a door to the warp, and a psyker doing the same thing with innate power and a disciplined mind so their squad can teleport across the battlefield?
Sorry for the rant, but this is all a major screw-up. The older fluff fit together, while this new stuff seems very poorly thought out.
CalgarsPimpHand wrote:Sorry for the rant, but this is all a major screw-up. The older fluff fit together, while this new stuff seems very poorly thought out.
Well, as long as it doesn't flow back into an actual GW book - feel free to ignore it? See our short discussion on page 2.
I think one of the major keys here seems to be the Emperor's own words at the Council.
He specifically pointed out that seeking knowledge as a shortcut to power without first gaining wisdom being the crux of his problem with Magnus. The Emperor places his own path as how much he has sought in his search for knowledge and the wisdom that he has had to earn through those experiences. And that while he has been capable of the quest for power through knowledge, he has also gained the wisdom as to what to do with said power.
So does the Emperor see the same attitude in the rune priests of the Space Wolves? Does the Emperor feel a kindred spirit with the shamanistic culture of the Fenrisians as it is supposedly linked to his own creation?
Questions probably never answered in the game universe, However it is clear with the retcon of just who and what was sanctioned at the Council and it was not the Wolves, nor their rune priests.
Lynata wrote:Well, as long as it doesn't flow back into an actual GW book - feel free to ignore it? See our short discussion on page 2.
I know, and I totally agree with you, but it already seems to be happening. The Grey Knight codex uses psychic power and sorcery interchangeably in the fluff section. It literally says there is no distinction beyond an arbitrary choice of words. Just another interesting piece of the fluff, apparently discarded for no obvious reason.
CalgarsPimpHand wrote:The Grey Knight codex uses psychic power and sorcery interchangeably in the fluff section.
Hmm, I see... :(
In many cases I supposed they could be used interchangably depending on the context (they both tap into the warp, and all of mankind has a general "psychic tendency" which just doesn't usually develop into full psyker power), but in general I very much agree about the distinction you so neatly outlined in the big post above. I really hope this isn't getting thrown out entirely!
It'd also blur the lines between psykers and normal people, for when everyone can do sorcery, everyone is a psyker. The Heresy!
Brother Ramses wrote:So does the Emperor see the same attitude in the rune priests of the Space Wolves? Does the Emperor feel a kindred spirit with the shamanistic culture of the Fenrisians as it is supposedly linked to his own creation?
Seriously? No. Given the Imperial Truth's focus on secularism and science, the mere mention of the Space Wolves and their primitive and superstitious ways should cause him physical pain. Keeping traditions around would probably be fine, but actually believing all that jazz about the spirit of Fenris should have been smacked down. Just another HH plot hole.
And the whole Nikea discussion is just a RAW vs. RAI argument. You either take the literal statement where he banned Librarians, but didn't mention Rune Priests at face value, or you take into account that he talked about how dangerous all non-essential psykers were, but only happened to mention Librarians by name.
I'd like to note that this sort of argument is how the SoB were created.
ETA: On sorcery, I seem to remember that there was a codex entry (the previous SM Librarian perhaps?) that mentioned sorcery in such a way that it simply seemed to be a matter of drawing on too much warp energy to pull of too big a 'spell'.
Brother Ramses wrote:Considering the I already provided Omegus with Index Astartes articles detailing the difference between librarians and runes priests as well as the difference in their founding to which he pretty much replied, "those are old articles so don't count" there is only one conclusion that you can draw which is exactly what I did.
You only mention the difference in psychic powers not being enough as you then point out Blood Angels powers being different as well. How about you address no psychic hoods on rune priests? How about addressing that rune priests instead have a runic staff/weapon that negates psychic powers completely different from any SM librarian and is a force weapon that also wounds daemons on a 2+?
The simple fact is that rune priests are NOT librarians. Librarians are a product of Magnus' grand dream for humanity. Librarians are a product of the Libraium, founded primarily by Magnus, trained by Magnus and his Thousand Sons. Rune Priests are a product of the Fenrisian shamanistic culture, NOT Magnus or his Libraium program. Per A Thousand Sons,
Henceforth, it is my will that no Legion will maintain a Librarius department. All its warriors and instructors must be returned to the battle companies and never again employ any psychic powers.
Did the Space Wolves ever have a Librarius department? No. Did the Space Wolves ever have warrior and instructors of said Librarius department? No. So what exactly were the Space Wolves to disband and send back to the battle companies?
The retcon has shifted from the unclear banning of boogity boogity sorcery and placed the decree squarely on Magnus' creation(s). The retcon is now a matter of the fruit of the poisoned tree metaphor; Magnus is accused of sorcery hence all he has had his hand in is also poisoned.
You are making some very large - I would contend unsupportably large - inferences there. The Index Astartes Article deserves no more weight that the likewise out of date Rogue Trader/2nd Edition rules and fluff which make the Librarian/Rune Priest distinction specifically one of terminology, and equipped Rune Priests with a force weapon, psychic hood and the same psychic powers and rules as any other Librarian.
I'd note also that despite all the runes fluff in the 5th Edition codex, the new Njal model unmistakably has a pyschic hood, which would support the contention that "rune-magic" is smoke and mirrors rather than substance. As for the difference in dispel/wounding rules, while it carries some weight as an argument, it is diminished by the presence in the Space Wolves codex of a plethora of other nonsensically abberant rules (Long Fangs, extra HQ slots) which a cynic might suggest were there only the make the Wolves' lists more distinct (and - the more cynical might add - overpowered and thus more popular).
It's also rather questionable that the Librarius was necessarily exclusively Magnus' creation: there was a Terran Librarian among the Dark Angels who, in the early days of the crusade, found Jonson. Whether the Space Wolves likewise had a Librarius prior (or indeed subsequent) to the rediscovery of Russ is thus an open question, not the closed issue you declare it.
I reiterate that it undermines your point that other psykers but not Rune Priests were explicitly excluded from the Edict of Nikea.
The point remains open, principally because Games Workshop's game background and fiction are inconsistent, but you are disingenuous to present your inferences as indisputable fact.
Brother Ramses wrote:So does the Emperor see the same attitude in the rune priests of the Space Wolves? Does the Emperor feel a kindred spirit with the shamanistic culture of the Fenrisians as it is supposedly linked to his own creation?
Seriously? No. Given the Imperial Truth's focus on secularism and science, the mere mention of the Space Wolves and their primitive and superstitious ways should cause him physical pain. Keeping traditions around would probably be fine, but actually believing all that jazz about the spirit of Fenris should have been smacked down. Just another HH plot hole.
And the whole Nikea discussion is just a RAW vs. RAI argument. You either take the literal statement where he banned Librarians, but didn't mention Rune Priests at face value, or you take into account that he talked about how dangerous all non-essential psykers were, but only happened to mention Librarians by name.
I'd like to note that this sort of argument is how the SoB were created.
ETA: On sorcery, I seem to remember that there was a codex entry (the previous SM Librarian perhaps?) that mentioned sorcery in such a way that it simply seemed to be a matter of drawing on too much warp energy to pull of too big a 'spell'.
If the Emperor views what Magnus was doing is wrong yet not the rune priests, it could be because he does not agree with Magnus' methods but does agree with the rune priests. I don't have my books with me at work, but the conversation between Ahriman and Othrere seems to draw a decisive line between how both view the warp and how it is to be used. Maybe that is the dividing line between what is considered wrong by the Emperor and what he considers right.
And as I pointed out, supposedly the Emperor was created by the reincarnated souls of a thousand powerful shamans or some crap. That is the possible kindred spirit with shamanistic foundings of the rune priests that I was talking about.
Just for the record, I never said those articles "don't count" (that was icpotaxo I think), I just refute your interpretation of what that article states. It says the Rune Priests of the Space Wolves hold to different beliefs and practices than the Librarians of other chapters, but they are still psykers and still utilize psychic powers.
Brother Ramses wrote:And as I pointed out, supposedly the Emperor was created by the reincarnated souls of a thousand powerful shamans or some crap. That is the possible kindred spirit with shamanistic foundings of the rune priests that I was talking about.
Yeah, I got that. It's just at this point, 15,000 years or so since he was born, the Emperor does seem to be well past the point where he would go along with any superstitions. Plus there are plenty of hints that the current Emperor isn't a kindred spirit to anyone. A couple of HH characters have gotten glimpses behind the mask and not liked what they saw.
If the Emperor views what Magnus was doing is wrong yet not the rune priests, it could be because he does not agree with Magnus' methods but does agree with the rune priests. I don't have my books with me at work, but the conversation between Ahriman and Othrere seems to draw a decisive line between how both view the warp and how it is to be used. Maybe that is the dividing line between what is considered wrong by the Emperor and what he considers right.
The problem there, and it's a problem with the whole 'ban Librarians but not Rune Priests' argument, is that action the Emperor took was to ban the Librarians. If it had been a case that Rune Priests were good, but Librarians were bad, then why didn't he mandate that the Librarians simply change their methods to whatever the Rune Priests did? Now you could argue that Magnus and his crew are just to eager, and would just run screaming over any line you drew for them, and I would buy it. But that wouldn't explain lowering the boom on other primitive screwhead types like the White Scars. Nikea would make more sense if it had only applied to the Thousand Sons. Trying to explain how it applied to everyone except the Space Wolves, and that nobody considered adopting whatever it was that made Rune Priests safe in order to keep their psyker gig, requires a bit of effort.
Omegus wrote:Just for the record, I never said those articles "don't count" (that was icpotaxo I think), I just refute your interpretation of what that article states. It says the Rune Priests of the Space Wolves hold to different beliefs and practices than the Librarians of other chapters, but they are still psykers and still utilize psychic powers.
If you ae going to reference it, reference it completely without adding your own commnetary;
The particular psychic powers and practises they employ, however, are based on those of the traditional shamans of their homeworld Fenris, and as such are very different from the Codex form.
Plain as day, not linked to the Librarium. Plain as day, not only the powers, but more importantly the practises they employ not linked to the Librarium. It gives you where they come from, which is not the Librarium.
Keep clinging to the fact that they use psychic powers and thus are pskers. That doesn't help you with the retconned Emperor's decree of disbanding the Librarius and sending the warriors and instructors back to the battle companies.
English, nothing has changed with how the Librarium was created and how Magnus was chiefly responsible for implementating librarians into the Legions. He did it with the Emperor's blessing aka the Librarian project/experiment which was later called the Librarian crisis. It was Magnus' baby as it aligned with his vision for humanity and the warp/psychic powers.
The Njal model has a psychic hood, but it is not listed on his wargear nor is it represented in his fluff or rules. He uses the Staff of the Stormcaller to negate psychic powers, again another deviation from codex librarians.
daveNYC wrote:Nikea would make more sense if it had only applied to the Thousand Sons. Trying to explain how it applied to everyone except the Space Wolves, and that nobody considered adopting whatever it was that made Rune Priests safe in order to keep their psyker gig, requires a bit of effort.
This is definitely the crux of the whole issue. Nikea used to make sense, and it used to mesh with the rest of the universe as described. Now it is broken and requires further retcons just to make things right, in addition to potentially muddying what used to be an important distinction in the fluff.
Brother Ramses wrote:The Njal model has a psychic hood, but it is not listed on his wargear nor is it represented in his fluff or rules. He uses the Staff of the Stormcaller to negate psychic powers, again another deviation from codex librarians.
Or maybe he's plugged into a psychic hood as per a normal librarian, but actually thinks it's his stick waving that does the nullification? :-) I mean lets face it, most of the inhabitants of the 40k universe aren't exactly masters of figuring out cause and effect. Mechanicum, I'm looking at you.
Brother Ramses wrote:And as I pointed out, supposedly the Emperor was created by the reincarnated souls of a thousand powerful shamans or some crap. That is the possible kindred spirit with shamanistic foundings of the rune priests that I was talking about.
Yeah, I got that. It's just at this point, 15,000 years or so since he was born, the Emperor does seem to be well past the point where he would go along with any superstitions. Plus there are plenty of hints that the current Emperor isn't a kindred spirit to anyone. A couple of HH characters have gotten glimpses behind the mask and not liked what they saw.
If the Emperor views what Magnus was doing is wrong yet not the rune priests, it could be because he does not agree with Magnus' methods but does agree with the rune priests. I don't have my books with me at work, but the conversation between Ahriman and Othrere seems to draw a decisive line between how both view the warp and how it is to be used. Maybe that is the dividing line between what is considered wrong by the Emperor and what he considers right.
The problem there, and it's a problem with the whole 'ban Librarians but not Rune Priests' argument, is that action the Emperor took was to ban the Librarians. If it had been a case that Rune Priests were good, but Librarians were bad, then why didn't he mandate that the Librarians simply change their methods to whatever the Rune Priests did? Now you could argue that Magnus and his crew are just to eager, and would just run screaming over any line you drew for them, and I would buy it. But that wouldn't explain lowering the boom on other primitive screwhead types like the White Scars. Nikea would make more sense if it had only applied to the Thousand Sons. Trying to explain how it applied to everyone except the Space Wolves, and that nobody considered adopting whatever it was that made Rune Priests safe in order to keep their psyker gig, requires a bit of effort.
Which is not an answer we should expect anytime soon.
You have one of two choices really,
1. The rune priests were included yet for some unknown reason faced no sanction in still using psychic powers and then are even ordered to sanction those still using psychic powers, while being accompanied by the Silent Sisterhood and the Custodes. That takes some mental hoop jumping since both the Sisterhood and Custodes were present at Nikkea and held allegiance towards the Emperor, not Russ.
2. The rune priests were not included as their use of psychic powers was not founded in the, "tainted" teachings of Magnus as was the whole Librarius program.
With the first scenarion you have to accept that Russ was blatantly disobeying the Emperor. Not only Russ, but also the Silent Sisterhood and the Emperor's own Custodes. You also have to then imagine a scenario that has the Wolves facing no sanction for doing exactly what they are called upon to sanction. Not even mental hoops, that requires a mental olympics to justify.
The second scenario falls simply into place. You don't have to imagine Russ, the Sisterhood, and the Custodes directly disobeying the Emperor yet facing no punishment. You don't have to face the paradox of the Wolves sanctioing the Thousand Sons for use of psychic powers while using said psychic powers without being sanctioned themselves.
It irks other 40k players, especially other SM player, to no end that the Wolves are the supposed executionors of the Emperor. It destroys their perception of their army being the twinkle in the Emperor's eye. However if you read the edict and then see zero evidence of any sanction to the Space Wolves for their continued use of psychic powers, everything points to the fact that they were excluded from the edict and more then likely were even sanctioned pskers of the Emperor to carry out whatever orders he needed the Wolves to follow.
Brother Ramses wrote:You have one of two choices really,
1. The rune priests were included yet for some unknown reason faced no sanction in still using psychic powers and then are even ordered to sanction those still using psychic powers, while being accompanied by the Silent Sisterhood and the Custodes. That takes some mental hoop jumping since both the Sisterhood and Custodes were present at Nikkea and held allegiance towards the Emperor, not Russ.
2. The rune priests were not included as their use of psychic powers was not founded in the, "tainted" teachings of Magnus as was the whole Librarius program.
With the first scenarion you have to accept that Russ was blatantly disobeying the Emperor. Not only Russ, but also the Silent Sisterhood and the Emperor's own Custodes. You also have to then imagine a scenario that has the Wolves facing no sanction for doing exactly what they are called upon to sanction. Not even mental hoops, that requires a mental olympics to justify.
The second scenario falls simply into place. You don't have to imagine Russ, the Sisterhood, and the Custodes directly disobeying the Emperor yet facing no punishment. You don't have to face the paradox of the Wolves sanctioing the Thousand Sons for use of psychic powers while using said psychic powers without being sanctioned themselves.
It irks other 40k players, especially other SM player, to no end that the Wolves are the supposed executionors of the Emperor. It destroys their perception of their army being the twinkle in the Emperor's eye. However if you read the edict and then see zero evidence of any sanction to the Space Wolves for their continued use of psychic powers, everything points to the fact that they were excluded from the edict and more then likely were even sanctioned pskers of the Emperor to carry out whatever orders he needed the Wolves to follow.
You also have option 3: The whole episode is retold to us from the perspective of a human that is being mentally manipulated by the Space Wolves. So, of course, everything will be Space Wolf biased. And since it is the only fluff that doesn't fit into already established fluff...
Given that the Wolves' attack on Prospero is due to manipulation by both the ruinous powers (as seen in PB) and Horus (in False Gods, I believe), it's not hard to believe that Horus, acting in his role as Warmaster, gave the Wolves special dispensantion to use their psykers in the action.
The Sisters, Custodes, and Wolves had already accepted an order to exterminate a legion, accepting an order to use all the means at their disposal is small potatoes in comparison.
Otherwise you are forced to accept that Librarians are tainted because Magnus wrote their textbooks, even though the practices of the Thousand Sons are nothing like what the Librarians do, and that the Rune Priests methods are uncorrupted (and uncorruptable, remember that the ban wasn't due to some incident of Librarians going bad it was due to the inherent dangers of psychic power usage) yet nobody from another legion decided to adopt their methods.
2. The rune priests were not included as their use of psychic powers was not founded in the, "tainted" teachings of Magnus as was the whole Librarius program.
The second scenario falls simply into place. You don't have to imagine Russ, the Sisterhood, and the Custodes directly disobeying the Emperor yet facing no punishment. You don't have to face the paradox of the Wolves sanctioing the Thousand Sons for use of psychic powers while using said psychic powers without being sanctioned themselves.
It irks other 40k players, especially other SM player, to no end that the Wolves are the supposed executionors of the Emperor. It destroys their perception of their army being the twinkle in the Emperor's eye. However if you read the edict and then see zero evidence of any sanction to the Space Wolves for their continued use of psychic powers, everything points to the fact that they were excluded from the edict and more then likely were even sanctioned pskers of the Emperor to carry out whatever orders he needed the Wolves to follow.
You also have option 3: The whole episode is retold to us from the perspective of a human that is being mentally manipulated by the Space Wolves. So, of course, everything will be Space Wolf biased. And since it is the only fluff that doesn't fit into already established fluff...
You can see where I'm going here, right?
I like #2. Since the Emperor didn't ban the use of all psychic energy by everybody. He realized that not all warp energies are used the same way (being a powerful psycher himself he might know multiple ways of manipulating the warp), and he only saw the dangers in the way that the Librarians were learning and using it. Thus he specifically singled them out.
There are two ways to light a fire.
1) start with some kindling, build a nest of paper and twigs, slowly breath life into it until it catches and start adding larger planks of wood.
2) douse the whole thing with a gallon of gas and drop a match.
Which way are you going to use. Maybe the Rune Priest way of doing it just doesn't present the same dangers and yet still gets the job done.
I'd also like to point out that rune Priest model doesn't have a psychic hood at all. Nor is one listed anywhere in their profile. Yet still has the canceling power, and that power even functions mechanically different than a traditional psychic hood. The Rune Priests just do things differently. Its not a bad thing, but I guess it just rubs some fans the wrong way.
Then you run into the question: If the Emperor wasn't banning all psyker use by SM legions, why did he ban the Librarians instead of simply reforming their training and use of the warp to reflect how the Rune Priests do it?
There are two ways to light a fire.
1) start with some kindling, build a nest of paper and twigs, slowly breath life into it until it catches and start adding larger planks of wood.
2) douse the whole thing with a gallon of gas and drop a match.
Which way are you going to use. Maybe the Rune Priest way of doing it just doesn't present the same dangers and yet still gets the job done.
Are you trying to imply that #2 isn't the right and proper way to start a fire? BTW, you forgot method #3, steel wool and a 9v battery.
Beceause its been well established that Marines are nothing if not abhorrent to change. If something has been done for 10000 years, well thats good enough. No reason to learn something new.
Rune Priests and the people are Fenris are steeped in tradition since before the foundings. They themselves have been doing it the same way 10000 years.
And yes. Since I'm no longer 12, pay insurance premiums, and am a concerned, educated member of a community. #2 is not the proper way to light a fire.
Brother Ramses wrote:You have one of two choices really,
1. The rune priests were included yet for some unknown reason faced no sanction in still using psychic powers and then are even ordered to sanction those still using psychic powers, while being accompanied by the Silent Sisterhood and the Custodes. That takes some mental hoop jumping since both the Sisterhood and Custodes were present at Nikkea and held allegiance towards the Emperor, not Russ.
2. The rune priests were not included as their use of psychic powers was not founded in the, "tainted" teachings of Magnus as was the whole Librarius program.
With the first scenarion you have to accept that Russ was blatantly disobeying the Emperor. Not only Russ, but also the Silent Sisterhood and the Emperor's own Custodes. You also have to then imagine a scenario that has the Wolves facing no sanction for doing exactly what they are called upon to sanction. Not even mental hoops, that requires a mental olympics to justify.
The second scenario falls simply into place. You don't have to imagine Russ, the Sisterhood, and the Custodes directly disobeying the Emperor yet facing no punishment. You don't have to face the paradox of the Wolves sanctioing the Thousand Sons for use of psychic powers while using said psychic powers without being sanctioned themselves.
It irks other 40k players, especially other SM player, to no end that the Wolves are the supposed executionors of the Emperor. It destroys their perception of their army being the twinkle in the Emperor's eye. However if you read the edict and then see zero evidence of any sanction to the Space Wolves for their continued use of psychic powers, everything points to the fact that they were excluded from the edict and more then likely were even sanctioned pskers of the Emperor to carry out whatever orders he needed the Wolves to follow.
You also have option 3: The whole episode is retold to us from the perspective of a human that is being mentally manipulated by the Space Wolves. So, of course, everything will be Space Wolf biased. And since it is the only fluff that doesn't fit into already established fluff...
You can see where I'm going here, right?
The Librarian Crisis and the Council of Nikkea have their own canon outside of Prospero Burns. Even in a Thousand Sons, told from the Thousand Sons perspective, has the Custodes and Sisterhood accompanying the Wolves while they sanction Prospero and the Sons.
Said human is not being mentally manipulated by the Wolves. He has pretty much been the Primordial Annihilator's meat puppet since he was a child. The Wolves even talk of killing him since they still do not know how much of a conduit or threat he remains to be and instead choose to have him put in stasis. Remember, Kasper was not a tool of the Wolves, he was a tool of the Primordial Annihilator.
Jayden63 wrote:Beceause its been well established that Marines are nothing if not abhorrent to change. If something has been done for 10000 years, well thats good enough. No reason to learn something new.
Rune Priests and the people are Fenris are steeped in tradition since before the foundings. They themselves have been doing it the same way 10000 years.
And yes. Since I'm no longer 12, pay insurance premiums, and am a concerned, educated member of a community. #2 is not the proper way to light a fire.
I wasn't suggesting the Wolves change. If Rune Priests weren't covered by Nikea, then the Wolves wouldn't have had to change. It would be the other legions that could have changed to have their psyker practices reflect that of the Rune Priests. And at the point in time we're talking about, no legion had been doing anything for 10,000 years, not to mention that the extreme hidebound nature of all the elements of the Imperium is a characteristic of the post-heresy Imperium. The Great Crusade Imperium was far less pants-on-head.
Your inability to detect snark is well matched by your lack of a sense of humor.
Jayden63 wrote:Beceause its been well established that Marines are nothing if not abhorrent to change. If something has been done for 10000 years, well thats good enough. No reason to learn something new.
Rune Priests and the people are Fenris are steeped in tradition since before the foundings. They themselves have been doing it the same way 10000 years.
And yes. Since I'm no longer 12, pay insurance premiums, and am a concerned, educated member of a community. #2 is not the proper way to light a fire.
I wasn't suggesting the Wolves change. If Rune Priests weren't covered by Nikea, then the Wolves wouldn't have had to change. It would be the other legions that could have changed to have their psyker practices reflect that of the Rune Priests. And at the point in time we're talking about, no legion had been doing anything for 10,000 years, not to mention that the extreme hidebound nature of all the elements of the Imperium is a characteristic of the post-heresy Imperium. The Great Crusade Imperium was far less pants-on-head.
Your inability to detect snark is well matched by your lack of a sense of humor.
I realize that no one was saying that the Rune Priests had to change. I was talking about the other Librarians. However, when you've spent a lifetime doing one thing then someone says... you can accomplish the same thing provided you honestly believe that the wind smells like purple. Change can be difficult. I think the Emperor in his wisdom realized that change wouldn't happen, and so he must just put the current librarian system on a much tighter leash to protect themselves as much as everyone else.
As for snark and humor... have you read most of the posts in this thread? Kinda hard to tell without proper use of the orks on the left side of of text edit box. However, if what you were talking about is the "how to build a fire"... I work with boy scouts. And yeah... some genuinely believe that #2 fire starting is the right method. Scary really. My bad on that for not putting in my own smiling ork.
Brother Ramses wrote:Said human is not being mentally manipulated by the Wolves. He has pretty much been the Primordial Annihilator's meat puppet since he was a child. The Wolves even talk of killing him since they still do not know how much of a conduit or threat he remains to be and instead choose to have him put in stasis.
The Wolves surgically alter him and somehow reeducate him. He knows thier language. How?
The Rune Priest guides him in those 'dream walk' thing-a-ma-chigs. Why did he guide him?
So he would only know the things the Wolves wanted him to know. So he would only see what the Wolves wanted him to see.
How could you possible think he wasn't manipulated?
Brother Ramses wrote:Remember, Kasper was not a tool of the Wolves, he was a tool of the Primordial Annihilator.
Yes, he was a tool of the Primordial Annihilator. But he also was a tool for the Wolves. Otherwise they would have killed him. There is no other reason to keep him alive.
They have him put in stasis because he is the only outsider that knows the Wolves were manipulated like 2-year-olds into doing Chaos' dirty work, and they hate to admit it. That's why they pretend nothing happened and continue hounding the TS for the next few millennia. So much for "recognizing their failing and striving to correct it."
CalgarsPimpHand wrote:In comparison, the retcon is full of holes. Now the Emperor, or someone with sufficient authority, has to reverse the Council of Nikea decision, where previously it was said that the decree still stood in M41. Just one more arbitrary and short-sighted mistake on the Emperor's part, added to a growing list that's piling up in this Horus Heresy series.
I believe in the Salamander series one of the Marines Malevolent states that "some of us still adhere to the tenets of Nikaea" and one of the Salamanders declares the Marines Malevolent "worse than Black Templars". Everything I've read seems to imply that the decree was never reversed, but by M41 most consider it to be outdated. I think this fits in with the theory that it is Guilliman, not the Emperor, who ultimately does away with it and reintroduces librarians.
CalgarsPimpHand wrote:Worse, the distinction between psychic talent and using arcane lore to achieve your goals is being blurred, as evidenced by the Mat Ward-ing of the Grey Knight codex:
"Truly, the separation between psychic power and black magic exists only in the minds of men, and is wholly dependent upon whether the observer views the wonders of the galaxy through the veil of science or sorcery... thusly armoured, a Grey Knight can wield forbidden sorceries, harness taitned artefacts and scour the pages of blasphemous tomes without risk of being overwhelmed by the cursed power at his command".
Of course there's no friggin' magic in the 41st Millennium! There's still a big difference between what a Grey Knight psyker does and what a Chaos cultist non-psyker does when they draw on the warp. It's a much bigger difference than the observer's "view". If you don't explain that to people, if you casually drop it from the fluff, then the whole psyker schtick stops making any sort of sense. If you call on an arcane spell, but you have good intentions and believe in science, you're safe? If you do the same thing, but you're thinking naughty thoughts, you're overwhelmed with cursed power? So there's no distinction between a cult using a forbidden ritual to open a door to the warp, and a psyker doing the same thing with innate power and a disciplined mind so their squad can teleport across the battlefield?
Sorry for the rant, but this is all a major screw-up. The older fluff fit together, while this new stuff seems very poorly thought out.
I think the new fluff is more grimdark. If the distinction between psychic powers and sorcery only exists in your mind, you'd better have a really strong mind if you're going to use them. It shows what a fine line librarians walk.
Brother Ramses wrote:I think one of the major keys here seems to be the Emperor's own words at the Council.
He specifically pointed out that seeking knowledge as a shortcut to power without first gaining wisdom being the crux of his problem with Magnus. The Emperor places his own path as how much he has sought in his search for knowledge and the wisdom that he has had to earn through those experiences. And that while he has been capable of the quest for power through knowledge, he has also gained the wisdom as to what to do with said power.
The ironic part is that the Emperor is basically guilty of the same thing. "You do not have the wisdom to use such powerful knowledge! Only I have the grand vision to harness the powers of the Warp to create the primarchs and guide humanity in to a new golden age! Oh, hello Horus... do you have a present for your dear old dad? Oops - I guess I'm a toaster oven now."
English Assassin wrote:It's also rather questionable that the Librarius was necessarily exclusively Magnus' creation: there was a Terran Librarian among the Dark Angels who, in the early days of the crusade, found Jonson. Whether the Space Wolves likewise had a Librarius prior (or indeed subsequent) to the rediscovery of Russ is thus an open question, not the closed issue you declare it.
It seems that though Jonson was the first primarch created (tube #1) he was actually one of the later ones to be discovered. We know that at the very least the Khan was found before Jonson. On the other hand, we know that Magnus was with the Emperor when he discovered Lorgar, who in turn had interactions with the other primarchs on Terra in the early years of the Crusade. Also, Monarchia happened a good 50(?) some odd years before the Heresy. So it's entirely possible that Magnus had introduced librarians to the First Legion before the discovery of Jonson.
CalgarsPimpHand wrote:In comparison, the retcon is full of holes. Now the Emperor, or someone with sufficient authority, has to reverse the Council of Nikea decision, where previously it was said that the decree still stood in M41. Just one more arbitrary and short-sighted mistake on the Emperor's part, added to a growing list that's piling up in this Horus Heresy series.
I believe in the Salamander series one of the Marines Malevolent states that "some of us still adhere to the tenets of Nikaea" and one of the Salamanders declares the Marines Malevolent "worse than Black Templars". Everything I've read seems to imply that the decree was never reversed, but by M41 most consider it to be outdated.
BY M41?
Try by M31 or earlier!
Nicholas wrote:I agree with their being no distinction between psyker and sorcerer, being more grimdark. Even the good guys risk their souls simply by existing.
In my opinion, it was a mistake to do away with this distinction because it clearly does exist, and has only served to muddy the waters and screw up the background that was already quite good.
Oh, and it actually made sense too!
I too feel that it was sacrificed, along with internal story logic and common sense, all in the name of Extra Grimdark.
like that
