We have the first part of the WD Sisters of Battle Codex and there is a lot of vocal worry. While I agree with a lot of the negativity, we should try to find some of the positives. On this, I will start with some things that I think people will be able to make work.

1) Dominions: With Scout they are now worth taking. If the now make special prices reasonable and similar to the IG codex, they might have a place now. The twin-linked faith act is a possible bonus.
2) Celestians as Troops(Not confirmed, but possible): They would be pretty good as troops and gives us a little more flexibility in the Org chart. They could be pretty useful.
3) Seraphim: There bolt pistols are useful and they no longer are a special weapon delivery system. They could have some use if they drop to 16 points or less.
4) Repentia: What they always should have been in every way. Two attacks base and FNP can make they a good counter-assault unit. With a priest they can do some good damage. If their price drops to less than 16 points, if definately have a place.
5) Retributors: Rendering Heavy bolters will help Sisters in dealing with mech. This with Dominions makes all infantry builds more possible.


Any other things that we can see will now be usable? Now while we don't have the point costs or wargear, that has never stopped Dakka from making guesses before!
Please don't post if you are just going to complain and sulk about the changes. We have a 30+ page thread for that already. Lets focus on the positive.

I almost started a thread similar to this but I realized it was just me complaining. However, I will hit some of these points.

1.) Dominions - They may be worth taking with scout, what I always wanted was to get a vehicle or two close to frag some heavy armor quickly. I like the idea of outflanking them when going second. Outflank at least helps force opponents into small tight flammable bunches.

2.) I have mixed impressions of Dominions as troops. I would have liked to seen something more like Frater Militias in there but I will not get into that. As troops go, I think straight SoB units might be 'strictly' better. I would rather re-roll 1's and regroup under 50% than get +1 S and Fearless. It will really come down to equipment for both. On a positive note I just realized all my SoB's have grenades and pistols on the models, at least they will be WYSIWIG now!

3.) Not sure how useful the pistols are still. They are better now that they can both be fired, but how much better than them being twin linked? Re-roll wounds is good when you are S3 and the other abilities are neat but in a Mech world there is not a lot of room for bodies outside boxes.

4.) I do not think they did enough with Repentia. They are slower than they used to be, they are more durable to shooting (cover and FNP) but I do not think their Faith ability makes up for the lack of control you have over them.

4.) These are actually more interesting to me. My first impression is to say that an Exorcist is strictly better. That said, they MAY have a place in the army if they can take the old style 'Blessed Ammunition' (ignores cover). If you can remove smoke, then there is a possibility 12 Rending S5 shots could wreck transports. Any other damage they can do is a bonus because at the end of the day SoB need ranged firepower...after even more thinking these could be brutal provided they ignore cover I would love to shootup some entrenched HWT and Long Fangs from across the table with these...

Another important one to note is if Penitent Engines take an Elite slot and cost around 40-50 points they will probably be taken. They are more killy (but much slower without the old Rage) and uncontrollable. That said, they provide cheap target saturation and from past experience if they do close they can do some nasty things. I have toyed with these in the past and had them eat some otherwise nasty units. I have also had them die to Krak grenades at I4 before they swing...

Depending on Rending HBs isn't going to go far. You get 8 hits, 1.3 rends on average. That's not that great, but it really depends on the cost.

There is no way seraphim are going to be priced even close to 16 pts. They are 22 now, and GW gave them things they consider to be an "upgrade". They will stay the same or even go up. If they go down, no lower than 20. Just look at the closest thing to them, scourges. 21 pts for a 4+ model with similar other stats.

Rending heavy bolters vs Mech? Lol, even with rending its still crap for dealing with anything other than DE vehicles. Just ask daemons how many attacks with S5 rending it takes to down any armor not AV10... Hint: Its more than what dominions put out.

I don't think there will be much toying with where units slot up, the reason being is there just isn't many units anymore, the FOC choices are starting to look like necrons...

How about faith acts asked upon elsewhere here at the Tactica board.
If you roll bad (D6), you eventually end up with no faith act for a turn.

wuestenfux wrote:How about faith acts asked upon elsewhere here at the Tactica board.
If you roll bad (D6), you eventually end up with no faith act for a turn.

Faith is like the magic phase in fantasy, but in this case you only get 1 dice, while other armies (like BA and GKs) always get two dice. And their lores are better too.

notabot187 wrote:

wuestenfux wrote:How about faith acts asked upon elsewhere here at the Tactica board.
If you roll bad (D6), you eventually end up with no faith act for a turn.

Faith is like the magic phase in fantasy, but in this case you only get 1 dice, while other armies (like BA and GKs) always get two dice. And their lores are better too.

I was just going to ask about this. I do think Sisters hould get at least what is even to GK's faithwise as they are also essentially the inquisition.

In fact, if your faith roll (D6) is 1 or 2, faith acts are not going through, since you have to end up with 5+ faith points getting a bonus of 1, 2 or 3 faith points situationally and subtracting 1 faith point.

Keeping in the spirit of the OP, the positives I've noticed.

i) Conclaves look like they can make a tolerable assault unit, assuming a price point no higher than the equivalent models in C:GK.

ii) Dominion Scouts in an Immolator will be a no-brainer, unless the ratio of specials to models is nerfed (won't know that until next month)

iii) St Celestine's new stats, and the removal of her 'lolnofaith' gamble on death, make her a very, very attractive IC.

The special character Jacobus allows you to reroll the roll for the number of faith points per turn.
He will eventually become a no-brainer in an SoB army.

AdeptSister wrote:

1) Dominions: With Scout they are now worth taking. If the now make special prices reasonable and similar to the IG codex, they might have a place now. The twin-linked faith act is a possible bonus.

3) Seraphim: There bolt pistols are useful and they no longer are a special weapon delivery system. They could have some use if they drop to 16 points or less.

Their competing for the same slot.

4) Repentia: What they always should have been in every way. Two attacks base and FNP can make they a good counter-assault unit. With a priest they can do some good damage. If their price drops to less than 16 points, if definately have a place.

Except they strike last still.

5) Retributors: Rendering Heavy bolters will help Sisters in dealing with mech. This with Dominions makes all infantry builds more possible.

Not really. Depending on what exorcists look like. Counting on rending is a bad proposition.

So, trying to look positively...

Its really Conclaves and Dominions.

Conclaves will give us a nasty CC unit with DCA and Crusaders, same as the GK setup but without Rad grenades and Hammerhand.

Dominions with Scout and possibly twin-linking their weapons should be decent.


So far I haven't seen anything else that hasn't made me cringe.

Creeping Dementia wrote:So, trying to look positively...

Its really Conclaves and Dominions.

Conclaves will give us a nasty CC unit with DCA and Crusaders, same as the GK setup but without Rad grenades and Hammerhand.

Dominions with Scout and possibly twin-linking their weapons should be decent.


So far I haven't seen anything else that hasn't made me cringe.

Both, Conclaves and Dominions, are eventually not troop units.

Do you mean evidently? And I know, trying to stay positive so I stayed away from the troops section...

Creeping Dementia wrote:Do you mean evidently? And I know, trying to stay positive so I stayed away from the troops section...

Yes, in the first place. Maybe a Priest can unlock the Conclave to become troops, like an Inquisitor in the codex GK.

notabot187 wrote:
I don't think there will be much toying with where units slot up, the reason being is there just isn't many units anymore, the FOC choices are starting to look like necrons...

I actually think there is a lot to the speculation that Penitent Engines will be elites. If you look at the ordering of the units in the codex it is...

HQ: Canoness, Command Squad, Confessor/Priests, Battle Concalve
Elite: Repentia, Penitent Engines
Troops: Sisters of Battle, Celestians
Fast Attack: Dominions, Seraphim
Heavy: Retributor, Exorcist
Dedicated Transport: Rhino, Immolator

This is from memory so please correct me if I swapped these (I may have only for the Dominion and Seraphim), but this is the order they appear in the WD.

I agree that counting on rending for Daemons is bad, but the real issue is not counting on rending itself, it is the fact that you need to hit in CC on usually a 6+ and then rend after that. The chance to not rend on 8 hits is about 23%. An Exorcist with 3 missiles, 2 hits has an 11% chance to not glance or pen. However, the key again will be if you get Blessed Ammunition on the Rets. Two damage results will be cover saved about 25% of the time with a 4+.

I am still not thrilled by the overall changes to the Faith system as they stand now, but I am starting to think wargear will have a bigger effect than I originally anticipated.

As for Jacobus, I am really hoping that they implement some additional utility to Imagifiers/Sacred Standard. Ideally, they will generate an additional Faith point each turn or something along those lines. I really wish the Canoness had that kind of utility, the reason to bring her before more than anything else was she had 2 Faith Points...well that and she could become the Flying Suicide Faith Gobbling Nun of Death.

wuestenfux wrote:In fact, if your faith roll (D6) is 1 or 2, faith acts are not going through, since you have to end up with 5+ faith points getting a bonus of 1, 2 or 3 faith points situationally and subtracting 1 faith point.

4+ with a squad leader
3+ if the squad took a casualty

If imiagafiers stick around and do the same thing it would be a reroll on faith checks.

Hmm, might the Hospitallers in Sororitas Command Squads generate a FNP bubble, rather than just buffing the Command Squad? They are described as "allowing a Battle Sister to return to the fray despite grevious injuries" - and you can't have Battle Sisters in the Command Squad, only Celestians.

Mythal wrote:Hmm, might the Hospitallers in Sororitas Command Squads generate a FNP bubble, rather than just buffing the Command Squad? They are described as "allowing a Battle Sister to return to the fray despite grevious injuries" - and you can't have Battle Sisters in the Command Squad, only Celestians.

I had the same thought, but it's a 50/50 90. They might follow the same model as the ba honor guard, or it might be an ig medic/sm apothicary. Personally I hope it is like the ba honor guard, they get 1 per hq and it is afnp bubble. That would turn sob into a tier 1 army, but if we talk about it too much sob players will throw an absolute temper tantrum if they don't get a bubble.

I hope Hospitallers work like that. I also think Retributors may be an option as we are not sure if the Exorcist launcher will be the same.

I think it would be funny if all our Elite section was uncontrollable.

I am willing to bet retribiturs cost=same cost as sisters and a squad leader, hb cost 5, and mm cost 10.

Doubt exorcists will stay the same.

calypso2ts wrote:Another important one to note is if Penitent Engines take an Elite slot and cost around 40-50 points they will probably be taken. They are more killy (but much slower without the old Rage) and uncontrollable. That said, they provide cheap target saturation and from past experience if they do close they can do some nasty things. I have toyed with these in the past and had them eat some otherwise nasty units. I have also had them die to Krak grenades at I4 before they swing...

Another thing to think about is that they get a pair of heavy flamers now, not normal flamers. Str5 is a big deal.

schadenfreude wrote:I had the same thought, but it's a 50/50 90. They might follow the same model as the ba honor guard, or it might be an ig medic/sm apothicary. Personally I hope it is like the ba honor guard, they get 1 per hq and it is afnp bubble. That would turn sob into a tier 1 army, but if we talk about it too much sob players will throw an absolute temper tantrum if they don't get a bubble.

Aw, we aren't that bad. But I agree that it'd definitely be a cool fringe benefit. Two blobs of 20 sisters, with a Relentless command squad toting multi-meltas and granting FNP stood between them, would certainly be a decent investment of 5-600 points.

schadenfreude wrote:Doubt exorcists will stay the same.

Well, if they lose AP1, they stop being worth fielding and Sisters of Battle will become a total-infantry force. I think there's going to be some 'random' element to their firing, though - the new fluff text includes "The Exorcist missiles fired by these revered vehicles are capable of splitting open enemy battle tanks or destroying entire squads of heavy infantry in one punishing salvo, provided, of course, the Exorcist's temperamental machine spirit does not malfunction". Now, whether that means we're still dealing with d6, or a fixed number of shots but any natural 1s rolled to hit negate the salvo, or whatever, we won't know until next month. It's definitely odd they didn't include the Exorcist Missile Launcher in the unit description, they tend to with totally unique equipment.

Mythal wrote: It's definitely odd they didn't include the Exorcist Missile Launcher in the unit description, they tend to with totally unique equipment.

Yeah they knew that was the piece people really wanted to find out about, so of course they "happened" to put it in the wargear section. Gits

Alright...We now know the point costs....*sigh*

Any idea on how to make the army work without Immolator Spam?

Seraphim are awesome again (near Chapter Approved Levels of greatness), but Battle Sisters, will be hard to use...

Does anybody think a large mob of Battle Sisters with a multi-melta will work?

I just don't know how we will survive an assault or do enough damage with Troops in the rapid fire range...

Celestine + FA spam. The question is which? Seraphim at 150? 190-210 with special weapons? Dominions in Rhinos or 5 woman units in Immolators?

Celestians have little point beyond trying to stack a Cannoness and Uriah for a melee combo, but it will need two acts of faith and two ICs for a whole lot of S4 I4 reroll hit ordinary attacks.

6 woman Ret squads with HBs cost 100. If the scouting Dominions or Seraphim can manage all the anti-tank work, they might be good. I doubt MM Rets have a point at all. 4 heavy flamer Rets is godawful expensive.

The command squad in a Rhino with 2 MMs could be worthwhile.

As soon as anything gets charged by a unit more dangerous than ordinary guardsmen, just write it off. It's dead and gone. We'll have to do our damage before then. I suspect 6 tacs will beat a 10 woman SoB squad, although it will take a while.

AdeptSister wrote:Alright...We now know the point costs....*sigh*

Any idea on how to make the army work without Immolator Spam?

Seraphim are awesome again (near Chapter Approved Levels of greatness), but Battle Sisters, will be hard to use...

Does anybody think a large mob of Battle Sisters with a multi-melta will work?

I just don't know how we will survive an assault or do enough damage with Troops in the rapid fire range...

IMO Immo Spam is dead, at least the way it used to work. Not only do Immolators not get better/cheaper, they managed to get worse and still cost noticably more than SM varient Razorbacks. Dominion Immolators will likely be the only ones used, Multi-melta varients, time to start ripping turrets apart.
I'm not sure about Seraphim yet, Dominions have been a much better option so far. Yes Seraphim have more killing ability, but they've lost so much of their utility and survivability. I usually don't need fragile flying close range shooters (could really use a tarpit...), scouting rhinos and meltas usually fill a better role.

Elites just aren't good at all...
No choice in Troops
Heavys are still Exorcists. Rets are cheap, but we really don't need Heavy Bolters in the army, plenty of options we could have used, but HBs aren't one of them. IMO Rets will not be seen to be a competitive choice.



In the games I've gotten in so far, the biggest problems I've run into is the staying power of the army is completely gone. Used to be able to control the battlefield a little with Seraphim and BSS squads and the Book of St. Lucius. Now all squads are toast and run in combat, meaning we have to be sure everything is dead in our shooting phase to prevent any assaults. Kinda like Tau, except without all that long range fire support.

Another huge difference I'm noticing, is the point level you play at is very important. 1000-1500 pt games are fine, you generally have enough Faith, and you have enough points to fill out the good slots (Fast, HQ). Once I get past 1500pts though I've been running into huge scaling problems. 2000 is tough, 2500 seems near impossible, just not enough Faith, not enough good slots. Kinda sucks as most (~95%) of games played in my area are 2000 or 2500pts.

It's still early, but I'm getting the feeling that I'll be dropping most of my flamers. With marines being opponent #1, I need to be able to break tanks and get through 3+ and 2+ armor. Exorcist shots and meltas are the only options out there, and without Divine Guidance, flamers just haven't been as easy a choice to make. It'll make me vulnerable to Orks, DE, and maybe Nids, but if I have tons of trouble building an all-comers list, then I'll gear for marines first.

I think that Immo spam is even more possible now, just tougher to pull off. You can throw out 17 Immos since every force org spot has them. Not that that would be a good army, just saying.

HQ - Uriah with BC in Immo/Rhino, Canoness with CCS in Immo
Elite - Celestians - Immo x3
Troops - Walking Sisters with Immo x6
FA - Dominions in Immo x3
Heavy - Exorcists x3
That's a lot of hulls. You can cut and choose to drop points, but wall of HF or MM Immos with Walking Sisters to take objectives. Half of the Immos have double melta in them. Not great, but it is something.

I'm still waiting for my 2nd half before I get too serious about lists though.


Are laud hailers available on vehicles? That would seem to be a good way to increase faith at higher points values.

Also, are Simul Imps roll two or reroll? Roll two would be awesome combo with Laud Hailers.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Oh and in all seriousness, my real list will probably be...

HQ - Celestine and Uriah with Battle Conclave (Rhino)
Elites - Celestians with Meltas in Immos (1 or 2)
Troops - 3 BSS in Immos or Rhinos (Melta, Combi Melta)
FA - Seraphim with stuff x2
Dominion Squad in Immo
Heavy - Exorcists x3

I'll have to play with costs and the army to see where I ultimately go.

Increase faith? You need to roll (more) 6s don't you? Chances are good you won't get a single Laud Hailer effect during any particular turn. You average 4.5 with Uriah, so you'll get a free faith point 4 or 5 turns out of the game if every single act is near a vehicle/command.

I wouldn't bother. Averaging 4 acts is enough to feed 3 FA units, and unless you are fielding Rets why do you need more? Only the command squad has an Act that's really good, and they are rumored to be 115 base. If you want Multimeltas take two Immolators instead.

notabot187 wrote:There is no way seraphim are going to be priced even close to 16 pts.

They're actually 15 points now. I have it in front of me.

schadenfreude wrote:I am willing to bet retribiturs cost=same cost as sisters and a squad leader, hb cost 5, and mm cost 10.

Doubt exorcists will stay the same.

You're correct on Retributers.

Exorcists are still the same (135).

A couple of questions for those in the know:

Are eviscerators still overpriced?

How much are Repentia?

If they are cheap, I can try foot by flooding them.

Eviscerators are very competitively priced given that you cannot take them on BSS squads anymore (so they cost 0 yay!).

I keep looking at this book to find something that is playable at around 1850 and there just are not enough good options in the book (or the good ones are in the same slot).

Canoness sucks - think of her like the priest from the old codex that you needed to unlock PE's and Arcos but now she unlocks a mediocre command squad.

No reason not to take a Confessor at all when you can take a named preacher for so cheap.

Not to be all negative, what is good? I only took 2 Exorcists before so I guess I can take some Rets now. I am trying my old list with 4 BSS (3x tri flame-1x dual melta) and moving my Celestians to be Dominions (ohh yeah btw Celestians suck, why would I pay grey hunter prices for these pieces of trash?).

Not sure how to use the Immolators which took a nerf bat so hard it is a joke. They are strictly worse than any SM Razorback. I really have a problem putting any points into upgrades on an AV 11 shell.

Maybe it would be worth spaming them like before with some additional Immy's on troops, but that leaves those troops out of the action. Plus a 6" max move and shoot on an Immolator means it has to end your turn 12" from an enemy, so it is going to eat a melta shot...

Edit: Repentia are normal SM prices, they suffer from the same problem all rage units do...they cannot be controlled so they basically stink

Edit 2: I do like the design philosophy of the new Penitent Engines. "Old penitents are too fragile for their cost, and compete with the only range anti tank in the codex." --"Okay so what if we gave them a second Heavy Flamer and a chance to generate extra attacks but otherwise left them unchanged...ohh but we want to slow them down so they lose their extra d6 movement plus we'll leave them in as heavy support but make Retributors a very cost effective competitive choice." --"Okay so you ran out of PE models huh?"

Celestine does seem to be interesting, any ideas how to use her though? In my experience runing Seraphim just provides targets for anything that cannot glance a Rhino, but she needs an escort. I thoguht maybe in a foot sisters list she can provide that asault element by breaking off from the squad to charge a nearby enemy and pin them down?

pretre wrote:I think that Immo spam is even more possible now, just tougher to pull off. You can throw out 17 Immos since every force org spot has them. Not that that would be a good army, just saying.

HQ - Uriah with BC in Immo/Rhino, Canoness with CCS in Immo
Elite - Celestians - Immo x3
Troops - Walking Sisters with Immo x6
FA - Dominions in Immo x3
Heavy - Exorcists x3
That's a lot of hulls. You can cut and choose to drop points, but wall of HF or MM Immos with Walking Sisters to take objectives. Half of the Immos have double melta in them. Not great, but it is something.

I'm still waiting for my 2nd half before I get too serious about lists though.


Are laud hailers available on vehicles? That would seem to be a good way to increase faith at higher points values.

Also, are Simul Imps roll two or reroll? Roll two would be awesome combo with Laud Hailers.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Oh and in all seriousness, my real list will probably be...

HQ - Celestine and Uriah with Battle Conclave (Rhino)
Elites - Celestians with Meltas in Immos (1 or 2)
Troops - 3 BSS in Immos or Rhinos (Melta, Combi Melta)
FA - Seraphim with stuff x2
Dominion Squad in Immo
Heavy - Exorcists x3

I'll have to play with costs and the army to see where I ultimately go.

Lol, when I said Immy spam is dead, its more from a competitive perspective...

Rhinos are deffinately the better choice now... maybe. They don't have any firepoints listed, but seeing as they basically identical to the SM ones, I'm going to be playing them as 2 firepoints until a FAQ/Errata comes out. Immos really are only useable IMO on Dominions due to Scout. Still, 80 pts for a MM Immy is stretching it, and thats without EA. I might convert most my Immy turrets to Heavy Bolters so I can use them in my GK army too (the color schemes are close enough I guess).

No, no Laud Hailers on vehicles, only on the Dialogus. That means a max 2 per army, and you'll be giving up Celestine and Jacobus.

Simulacrums are a reroll, but have nothing to do with a Laud Hailer anyway. The extra faith point generated is based on a roll immediately after the faith test, not on the roll itself. Doesn't have the reliablity or even the potential to make up for point level scaling.

Ya Seraphim are cheap, but the upgraded pistols are so damn expensive... I'm just not sure about them. Celestine is the shining gem of this new 'book', the only real unit where you don't have to really stretch to find potential.

The first half of the codex clearly states that two models may fire from the hatch of a Rhino.

Also, Penitent Engines in no way shape or form are a squadron any more, each penitent acts Independantly even if bought in groups of 3. 9 independant penitent engines behind a Rhino spam wall, that sounds somewhat amazing.

I included this in the army list thread I made but I figured it was relevant here.

Here's my 2k Uriah Jacobs DCA list.

HQ

Uriah Jacobs - 90

DCA x 6 Crusader x3 - 171
Rhino
Searchlight

Troops

Sister of Battle x 10 - 196
Heavy Flamer, Flamer, Combi Flamer
Rhino
Searchlight

Sister of Battle x 10 - 196
Heavy Flamer, Flamer, Combi Flamer
Rhino
Searchlight

Sister of Battle x 10 - 201
Heavy Flamer, Melta Gun, Combi Melta
Rhino
Searchlight

Sister of Battle x 10 - 201
Heavy Flamer, Melta Gun, Combi Melta
Rhino
Searchlight

Fast

Dominion x 5 - 175
Melta Gun x 2, Combi Melta
Immolator
TL MM

Dominion x 5 - 175
Melta Gun x 2, Combi Melta
Immolator
TL MM

Dominion x 5 - 175
Melta Gun x 2, Combi Melta
Immolator
TL MM

Heavy

Exorcist - 135

Exorcist - 135

Exorcist - 135

2000 pts.

Kreedos wrote:Also, Penitent Engines in no way shape or form are a squadron any more, each penitent acts Independantly even if bought in groups of 3. 9 independant penitent engines behind a Rhino spam wall, that sounds somewhat amazing.

As neat as that might seem, I think you are stretching the wording a bit. Also, compared to how the other unit entries are listed, it seems like you can only make a unit of 1 or 3, just not 2, as the entry is missing the words "up to".


Automatically Appended Next Post:

calypso2ts wrote:Celestine does seem to be interesting, any ideas how to use her though? In my experience runing Seraphim just provides targets for anything that cannot glance a Rhino, but she needs an escort. I thoguht maybe in a foot sisters list she can provide that asault element by breaking off from the squad to charge a nearby enemy and pin them down?

I intend to use her to draw fire away from models that will stay down if killed. When, not if, she kicks the bucket, she will essentially be this kind of 18 mine filed or booby trap... Yes, I think I like that, a booby trap. Now I can quote Admiral Ackbar every time she resurrects and charges someone.

I don't think I would deep strike her nor join her to a unit. If you mishaps off, she isn't technically killed on the table is she? And if she joins a unit of seraphim, she is liable to break off the table without being able to regroup. She may qualify as being "removed as a casualty" if she walks/floats off the board edge but that will be after a few turns of fall back move and at the table edge of your own deployment zone. So for me, the debate of whether or not she is an IC is kind of irrelevant.

Good to hear about the Rhino firepoints, a friend hasn't returned my copy of the first set yet .

Kreedos wrote:

Also, Penitent Engines in no way shape or form are a squadron any more, each penitent acts Independantly even if bought in groups of 3. 9 independant penitent engines behind a Rhino spam wall, that sounds somewhat amazing.

Just like you can include up to 5 additional Retributors, but they act independently, um no. Thats just not going to fly. But if you do find someone that buys into that, let them know I have some bargain oceanfront property in Iowa I'd love to sell them.

Having 9 individual units of them running around would actually be bad for them anyway, its a KP nightmare. The fact that they operate independently is the reason I don't bring Tau Sniper Drone teams. If the point cost, rules, and co$t weren't already making Penitent engines a laughable choice as they are, then having them count for an armys worth of KPs would.

I working on tweeking my army...But really really cannot understand why the Canoness does not come with a Rosarius Standard?!?!? So many Imperials HQ come with a Invulerable standard...Plus she is more expensive? Sorry....

But, We will make it work.

Any ideas on how to make a Canoness worthwhile?

Celestians, Uriah, Cannoness. S4 I4 A4 with rerolls on the charge. The only way to make the Cannoness and Celestians worthwhile is to stack acts + Uriah's banner.

Of these the Cannoness may be the most expendable piece, as it cost you only +1 I, but you also lose one of the squad's two power weapon/evis slots.

AdeptSister wrote:I working on tweeking my army...But really really cannot understand why the Canoness does not come with a Rosarius Standard?!?!? So many Imperials HQ come with a Invulerable standard...Plus she is more expensive? Sorry....

But, We will make it work.

Any ideas on how to make a Canoness worthwhile?

I see her as a means to unlock a command squad. The thing is, I would still just put her in a blob squad or repentia to take advantage of her stubborn rule. Probably equip her with just and eviscerator and take advantage of 'Spirit of the Martyr'. The repentia can also benefit from her Preferred Enemy boost before they go down. You will need to micromanage your assaults and pile in moves so that you don't put her next to an instant death model. The other side of that coin IS to put her next to the instant death model so that at least they will only kill her and her 3 attacks rather than X number of repentia who have plenty more. While in the repentia squad, she can take a few bolter type rounds to the face with her extra wounds and armor save. You will lose fleet but, if the situation calls for it, you can just have her leave the squad.

edit: typo

Creeping Dementia wrote:Good to hear about the Rhino firepoints, a friend hasn't returned my copy of the first set yet .

Kreedos wrote:

Also, Penitent Engines in no way shape or form are a squadron any more, each penitent acts Independantly even if bought in groups of 3. 9 independant penitent engines behind a Rhino spam wall, that sounds somewhat amazing.

Just like you can include up to 5 additional Retributors, but they act independently, um no. Thats just not going to fly. But if you do find someone that buys into that, let them know I have some bargain oceanfront property in Iowa I'd love to sell them.

Having 9 individual units of them running around would actually be bad for them anyway, its a KP nightmare. The fact that they operate independently is the reason I don't bring Tau Sniper Drone teams. If the point cost, rules, and co$t weren't already making Penitent engines a laughable choice as they are, then having them count for an armys worth of KPs would.

Your example about Retributors isn't the same because they're obviously units and purchases for a unit. I would like for you to quote for me where in the penitent engine entry it mentions anything at all about being in a squadron. The word squadron is not mentioned anywhere. It would be listed in the entry just like the previous book, and any other book that runs squadrons they clearly state "squadron" somewhere in the unit entry either in the entry itself or in the unit composition, or both. Also, even think about this just fluffwise, they're extremely aggressive with rage all the time, yet they run in nice little packs of 3 with a 3 inch coherency between them? Doesn't really make sense.

Also, I think they'd only be worth 1 kill point per 3, as they are bought as 1 heavy support choice. You'd just have to keep track of which 3 were bought together. Basically this needs a FAQ

I can see a lot of lists using Celistine...

Kreedos wrote:

Creeping Dementia wrote:Good to hear about the Rhino firepoints, a friend hasn't returned my copy of the first set yet .

Kreedos wrote:

Also, Penitent Engines in no way shape or form are a squadron any more, each penitent acts Independantly even if bought in groups of 3. 9 independant penitent engines behind a Rhino spam wall, that sounds somewhat amazing.

Just like you can include up to 5 additional Retributors, but they act independently, um no. Thats just not going to fly. But if you do find someone that buys into that, let them know I have some bargain oceanfront property in Iowa I'd love to sell them.

Having 9 individual units of them running around would actually be bad for them anyway, its a KP nightmare. The fact that they operate independently is the reason I don't bring Tau Sniper Drone teams. If the point cost, rules, and co$t weren't already making Penitent engines a laughable choice as they are, then having them count for an armys worth of KPs would.

Your example about Retributors isn't the same because they're obviously units and purchases for a unit. I would like for you to quote for me where in the penitent engine entry it mentions anything at all about being in a squadron. The word squadron is not mentioned anywhere. It would be listed in the entry just like the previous book, and any other book that runs squadrons they clearly state "squadron" somewhere in the unit entry either in the entry itself or in the unit composition, or both. Also, even think about this just fluffwise, they're extremely aggressive with rage all the time, yet they run in nice little packs of 3 with a 3 inch coherency between them? Doesn't really make sense.

I am going to go ahead and change my mind and agree with about the independent formation. To better clarify why that is, you will notice that under other entries they use "composition". Under the penitent engine's entry it uses "unit composition", so any additional engines bought for the entry still are made units of 1 model. Though I still find it funny that you can't just buy 2 for one selection, since they left out "up to".

Still wouldn't even consider doing it though...

On a different topic, why isn't an eviscerator the same as a chainfist? You think they will change the chainfist rule in 6th edition?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Anyone going to give their Canoness 2 eviscerators for the extra attack? I am tempted, because that would look %^#%@ sick!

In the french WD, there is the "up to" equivalent wording, in the PE options. So I would agree with 1, 2 or 3 independants PE for 1 Heavy slot. Still hard to keep them alive, but it can be quite a mess with particular deployment.

paintedpotato wrote:
Anyone going to give their Canoness 2 eviscerators for the extra attack? I am tempted, because that would look %^#%@ sick!

Why yes it would, and it is tempting if you ever have 25 extra points in the list. I had a double bladed eviserator at one point on my jump pack cannoness, that would have worked now, damn! =)

Kreedos wrote:

paintedpotato wrote:
Anyone going to give their Canoness 2 eviscerators for the extra attack? I am tempted, because that would look %^#%@ sick!

Why yes it would, and it is tempting if you ever have 25 extra points in the list. I had a double bladed eviserator at one point on my jump pack cannoness, that would have worked now, damn! =)

except for the jump pack part...

paintedpotato wrote:

Kreedos wrote:

paintedpotato wrote:
Anyone going to give their Canoness 2 eviscerators for the extra attack? I am tempted, because that would look %^#%@ sick!

Why yes it would, and it is tempting if you ever have 25 extra points in the list. I had a double bladed eviserator at one point on my jump pack cannoness, that would have worked now, damn! =)

except for the jump pack part...

Lol yeah I almost wrote that too.

Kreedos wrote:Also, I think they'd only be worth 1 kill point per 3, as they are bought as 1 heavy support choice. You'd just have to keep track of which 3 were bought together. Basically this needs a FAQ

No. It's based on units, not FOC choices. Consider Imperial Guard Infantry Platoons, or Space Marine Combat-Squadded anything. Each separate unit grants a kill point if destroyed in those cases, so even if it turned out you could field those 3 Penitent Engines as separate units, they'd each be a kill point. ^_^

You might be right.

Choices that have models that operate independently generally make it very clear that they do so. If you have to assume anything about how the PEs form up, they are almost surely meant as squadrons.

Well... the point is that there is no squadron mentioned anywhere. No "Penitent Engine Squadron" in the title, as in "Scout Sentinel Squadron", and no "Composition : Vehicle Squadron of 1-3 PE" neither.

So, I understand it can be the spirit behind permitting 3 PE in squadron per slot, but it is not written correctly. I mean, it is not to hard to write "squadron" at a point or another, isn't it ?

Grenat wrote:Well... the point is that there is no squadron mentioned anywhere. No "Penitent Engine Squadron" in the title, as in "Scout Sentinel Squadron", and no "Composition : Vehicle Squadron of 1-3 PE" neither.

So, I understand it can be the spirit behind permitting 3 PE in squadron per slot, but it is not written correctly. I mean, it is not to hard to write "squadron" at a point or another, isn't it ?

Wow! So it is like that in the French printing too?

Yep.

Machine de Pénitence --------- 85 pts

[Stats]

Composition d'unité : 1 Machine de Pénitence

[...]

Options : Inclure jusqu'à deux machines de pénitence supplémentaires -------- 85 pts par figurine

So it is more like a Walker "unit", rather than a Walkers squadron.... it is a bit strange.

So, here's another thing I've been thinking is a positive in this new codex. Footslogging seems much more viable just because of the massive amount of power armor that can be placed on the board, and now, with Dominions having scout, it solves the problem of range and mobility VS dug in armies, and gives us much needed disruption to heavy firepower.

Here's an example, 101 bodies w/ 3+/6+ saves for 2k points.

HQ

Cannoness - 65

Command Squad - 170
Celestian x 3, Diaglous, Hospitaler
Banner (Allows morale reroll within 12)
MM x 3

Troops

Sister of Battle x 10 - 160
Heavy Flamer, Flamer, Combi Flamer

Sister of Battle x 10 - 160
Heavy Flamer, Flamer, Combi Flamer

Sister of Battle x 10 - 160
Heavy Flamer, Flamer, Combi Flamer

Sister of Battle x 10 - 155
Melta Gun x 2, Combi Melta

Sister of Battle x 10 - 155
Melta Gun x 2, Combi Melta

Sister of Battle x 10 - 155
Melta Gun x 2, Combi Melta

Fast

Dominion x 5 - 175
Melta Gun x 2, Combi Melta
Immolator
TL MM

Dominion x 5 - 175
Melta Gun x 2, Combi Melta
Immolator
TL MM

Dominion x 5 - 175
Melta Gun x 2, Combi Melta
Immolator
TL MM

Heavy

Retributor Squad x 6 - 97
Heavy Bolter x 4

Retributor Squad x 6 - 97
Heavy Bolter x 4

Retributor Squad x 6 - 97
Heavy Bolter x 4

Total 1996

Basing an army off of bad wording that will likely be FAQed is just a bad idea (like the fact you can only take 1 or 3, not 2). Granted, we might not get a FAQ based on how little effort they've put into this so far, but its not something I'd bet on.

Kreedos wrote:

Also, I think they'd only be worth 1 kill point per 3, as they are bought as 1 heavy support choice. You'd just have to keep track of which 3 were bought together. Basically this needs a FAQ

This, however, is just trying to have it both ways. They'll be independent units but somehow get to ignore the rules for KPs? Every enemy unit grants a KP when killed. If you want your Penitents to be individual units, then they're going to be individual KPs, just like every other unit/transport/combat squad in the game.

Grenat wrote:
So, I understand it can be the spirit behind permitting 3 PE in squadron per slot, but it is not written correctly. I mean, it is not to hard to write "squadron" at a point or another, isn't it ?

You mean like getting picture captions right, or arco stats right, or the battle report with legal lists?

Kreedos wrote:So, here's another thing I've been thinking is a positive in this new codex. Footslogging seems much more viable just because of the massive amount of power armor that can be placed on the board, and now, with Dominions having scout, it solves the problem of range and mobility VS dug in armies, and gives us much needed disruption to heavy firepower.

Here's an example, 101 bodies w/ 3+/6+ saves for 2k points.

You have 3 transports, which makes them highly likely to get exactly one turn of life. But more importantly, you have no replies to fast moving close combat troops. Dark Eldar, 'nids, Assault Marines, anything with a 12" move, charge, or assault vehicle. They will sweep right past your engagement range, assault you, and there is little you can do but spread out (which denies units supporting each other) or pray you break on their turn. And it's not that hard to play contact games to prevent that.

I'd also field Seraphim instead of Dominions.

Seeing how most of the people from this thread are of the opinion that St. Celestine is not an IC, how will that affect how people will use her as hiding her in a squad of Seraphim would not be possible if their opinion is correct?

You mean like getting picture captions right, or arco stats right, or the battle report with legal lists?

Exactly


About Celestine, I suppose it is still possible to run her solo like we used to do with Jump-pack canoness... but she will die pretty easily... I am thinking about it...

She can/will get ID'd by a Chimera Multi-Laser...

Ya but she can come back, so I think her role will be pretty different.
Anyway, if you want a "competitive" advice, I do not feel concerned

Hmm, can the model successfully hide behind a rhino? I don't have it.

Maybe just moving solo trying to hug LOS blocking terrain, if there is any. As good a bargain as she is, she's going to need support against anything with a fist. There might be little point if you don't have any seraphim, IC or not, since she's going to need to keep S6 power weapons away from base contact.

Celestine can hide behind a Sisters of Battle rhino with the added piece on top that makes it a little taller. Using my laser sight, on a perfectly level surface, all anyone can see is the tips of her cape. However, given a few inches elevation, she's visible.

The issue with Celestine is that Jacobus with a battle conclave is a no-brainer and she isn't. She is great, but I'd generally rather have more rhino hulls in my army than a single close combat character, immortal and uber strong or not. I think Celestine would be best with a squad of Seraphim to support her, but that poses the additional problem of Seraphim taking up too many points for their special pistols and taking up a Dominion slot.

The Grog wrote:

You have 3 transports, which makes them highly likely to get exactly one turn of life. But more importantly, you have no replies to fast moving close combat troops. Dark Eldar, 'nids, Assault Marines, anything with a 12" move, charge, or assault vehicle. They will sweep right past your engagement range, assault you, and there is little you can do but spread out (which denies units supporting each other) or pray you break on their turn. And it's not that hard to play contact games to prevent that.

I'd also field Seraphim instead of Dominions.

Everything you've said is tailored to your opinion. The list I made wasn't meant to be perfectly balanced I didn't take the time to pour though it to make sure it was golden. It was meant to just make my point about footslogging, you can pick though it all you want and say X unit will own it, but I still think it still looks decent on paper. Just to let you know 3 transports that outflank will always have more than one turn of life, that's the exact pessimistic attitude we don't need and trying to get away from in this thread. "OMG MIGHT AS WELL NOT EVEN PLAY IT IT'S JUST GUNNA DIE FIRST TURN LAWLS."

If my opponent could always kill 3 Rhinos a turn, I'd lose every game.

How effective would a sororitas command squad be with multimeltas or heavy bolters? I can see them running in a transport with a bunch of immolators using Endless crusade to activate their heavy weapons on the move and being pretty effective.

Kreedos wrote:

paintedpotato wrote:
Anyone going to give their Canoness 2 eviscerators for the extra attack? I am tempted, because that would look %^#%@ sick!

Why yes it would, and it is tempting if you ever have 25 extra points in the list. I had a double bladed eviserator at one point on my jump pack cannoness, that would have worked now, damn! =)

So 5 S6 power weapon attacks on the charge that each gain +1d6 pen against vehicles. If you put her with Jacobus and some Death Cultists you could pump up the cultist's initiative to 7 with her faith power. Pretty sexy.

I suppose that ecclesiarchy priests can dual wield eviscerators also, though that would get pricey. Dual wielding priests would be 4 S6 attcks on the charge for 95p each.

Either the dual-wield cannoness or the priests could run with the celestians and get S7...


[edit] Actually even better Seraphim Superiors can dual wield eviscerators which would be the best choice since she couldnt be singled out by walkers AND can reroll to wound. [/edit]

Cheddah wrote:

[edit] Actually even better Seraphim Superiors can dual wield eviscerators which would be the best choice since she couldnt be singled out by walkers AND can reroll to wound. [/edit]

Unfortunately they can only reroll to wound in shooting. =(

Cheddah wrote:How effective would a sororitas command squad be with multimeltas or heavy bolters? I can see them running in a transport with a bunch of immolators using Endless crusade to activate their heavy weapons on the move and being pretty effective.

Kreedos wrote:

paintedpotato wrote:
Anyone going to give their Canoness 2 eviscerators for the extra attack? I am tempted, because that would look %^#%@ sick!

Why yes it would, and it is tempting if you ever have 25 extra points in the list. I had a double bladed eviserator at one point on my jump pack cannoness, that would have worked now, damn! =)

If you put her with Jacobus and some Death Cultists you could pump up the cultist's initiative to 7 with her faith power. Pretty sexy.

Conclaves don't benefit from AoF, so no initiative 7 nor rerolls on the DCA. The Priest/Confessors would benefit though. (Yay...?)

D'oh my bad...

I went through this with my blood angels WD dex years back, may the cheesewheel turn for all SoB players as it did for us BA players.

I still can't find a happy balance on Crusaders to DCA; using 2 or 3 at the moment.

Gosh darn I hate GK/BA's and stormshields

Wait for a real release codex. That's the real way forward. If you already have a sister's army, then it's all good, go ahead and use this toilet paper codex. But if you're thinking of starting, wait for the real thing. You're gonna be sorry if you invest tons of money into an army that's going to be completely different when they get redone.

scuddman wrote:Wait for a real release codex. That's the real way forward. If you already have a sister's army, then it's all good, go ahead and use this toilet paper codex. But if you're thinking of starting, wait for the real thing. You're gonna be sorry if you invest tons of money into an army that's going to be completely different when they get redone.

That is reasonable. I just hoping someone can make this WD work and maybe win or be in the top 5 of a major tournament.

I guess the reason I take this so personally is that the free Codex Approved Sisters of Battle List got me into 40k. I loved the fluff of warrior nuns fighting for the one true emperor. And it being free made it easy for me to join my friends and build an army. The problems with the new WD codex + the ridiculousness of price and lack of box troop sets makes it impossible for someone to have the same experience...

Rant over...

So is foot sister list truly dead without the Book of St. Lucius?

It really depends on your matchup and the point size. 2500 point hard boyz? Forget it

1000 point small rogue trader? Very viable depending on if you get lucky on matchups.

I'm tossing around a few ideas but I think I can make a downright nasty list at 2k w/90 infantry and 9 vehicle hulls. I'll probably throw it up in the next week or so.

The sisters can do a few things that other imperial armies cannot do -- which is what I would leverage when creating lists.

Special Weapons
A squad of 5 Dominions or Celestians can carry 2 special weapons in a 5 woman squad. No other imperials (GK, BA, C:SM, BT, SW, DA) can do this. If utilizing rhinos to protect them, these squads can deliver quite the anti-armor punch. As the chart below shows a MG, even at a 12" range has a greater chance of destroying AV 13 and lower than a LC does. Each rhino has a 18-26" threat range with those MGs (depending if the sisters disembark).

TL MG
AV 10 - 32.34%
AV 11 - 24.74%
AV 12 - 17.09%
AV 13 - 9.83%
AV 14 - 2.49%

TL LC
AV 10 - 24.79%
AV 11 - 19.61%
AV 12 - 15.13%
AV 13 - 9.90%
AV 14 - 5.01%
Batlte sisters can also bring 2 special weapons in a 10 woman squad, and can be utilized for the same purpose. This gives every squad the ability to deliver strong anti-tank power.

Sister Blobs
20 sisters sitting on an objective can be very hard to move. They would need to be assaulted off the objective, but doing so means the enemy must close within the MG tank wall. While some units can fly over the wall, or deep strike past it, the sisters should be able to counter that pretty well. 16 MG shots can take down 10 BA pretty easily, or 3 exorcists should be able to take down a deep striking dread pretty quickly.
While I would not suggest blobbing up your entire army, one blob can be utilized this way. Their transport could also then go to a repentia squad.

Immolators with MMs
As the chart shows above, an immolator with a TL MM is more effective than an razorback with a TL LC on most armor (and all armor within 12") The immolator costs 5 more points than the razorback and has a 6+ Shield of Faith save. The only drawback with these immolators is they prevent you from shooting the dual MG from the hatch.

Exorcists
STR 8 with AP1 shots are better than STR 9 AP 2 shots vs most armor. The exorcist fires 3.5 of those shots per turn and costs 15 more points than a AC/LC preadator. That's a good bargain for what the tank delivers. These can be utilized to take down enemy medium armor (such as stormravens) with great effect.

Penitent Engine Spam
I've been tossing the idea of 9 penitent engines running behind a wall of rhinos armed with MGs. The MG spam would crack transports and armor, then allow the engines to reap destruction. As each engine would be obscured behind the rhinos, it would be hard to destroy before they were on you.
I think this army needs a few proxy games to test out, but I think it will be very effective. It's biggest challenge will be an enemy that can move away very quickly (eldar, dark eldar, etc)

Jacobs Battle Conclave
Jacobs leading 5 death cult assassins and 4 crusaders is just a mean assault force. Every model rerolls missed to-hits on the turn they assault, they are stubborn, they have +1 attack and FNP. The assassins will have 25 STR 4 PW attacks hitting on I6, and the squad has four 3++ saves it can utilize to absorb incoming PW attacks.
For the cost, its an extremely effective assault unit. I think it edges over Repentia due to the speed and volume of the attacks.

@labmouse42: Thanks for the actual analysis! It is refreshing.

labmouse42 wrote:The sisters can do a few things that other imperial armies cannot do -- which is what I would leverage when creating lists.

Special Weapons
A squad of 5 Dominions or Celestians can carry 2 special weapons in a 5 woman squad. No other imperials (GK, BA, C:SM, BT, SW, DA) can do this.

You forgot IG Storm Troopers, IG Company and Platoon Command Squads, SM/BA Sternguard, SM/BA Command Squads, GK Paladins, GK Purifiers, GK Warrior Acolytes and GK Purgation Squads. Don't have SW, BT or DA to hand where I am at the minute, so can't check those. Unless you're being gender-specific when you say "5 woman", in which case you're right

That said, I largely agree with the idea that special weapon spam with minimal squad size is probably the best way to go - certainly, all of the lists I've seen coming up since the new Codex hit have used that as their guiding principle. I'm a bit more fluffy when I build forces, so I'd take a 10-sister Seraphim squad, for example, rather than min-maxing them for 4 melta shots from 5 models (something that Blood Angels can manage with Troops choices, if they take Dante).

pretre wrote:@labmouse42: Thanks for the actual analysis! It is refreshing.

Anytime. I found a few of the critiques of the codex really unfounded and wanted to give a view of the strengths. Here are the critics that make me facepalm.
http://kirbysblog-ic.blogspot.com/2011/08/what-to-do-about-maria-working-with-new.html

Celestians and not Grey Hunter
Grey Hunters are the staple of the SW codex. Their made to be a great buy to encourage people to play them, in a similar way that the ork boy is a great buy. Comparing every choice to them is setting an unrealistic standard for a unit.

Its better to compare them to battle sisters. For 3 more points a model, they have an extra attack, an extra WS, and a good power that can be utilized to bring them close to on par with marines. The real advantage they get in the ability to field 2 special weapons in 5 sisters, making the cost of the dual MG rhino 45 points less.

Immolators Suck!!!111!!
An immolator costs the same as a razorback with a TL HF in the C:SM and SW codex. GKs cost 5 more, but have fortitude, and BA can get them for insanely cheap.
Overall, they seem to be in line with the other equilivant imperial tanks. The HB version is not worth it IMHO, as even the ability to re-roll wounds only gives it a 55% of wounding T6. However, the MM and HF versions are decent.
The only drawback I really see with the immolator is that the sister squads do very well with 2 MGs per squad, its just a natural fit for the rhino.

labmouse42 wrote:Immolators Suck!!!111!!
An immolator costs the same as a razorback with a TL HF in the C:SM and SW codex. GKs cost 5 more, but have fortitude, and BA can get them for insanely cheap.
Overall, they seem to be in line with the other equilivant imperial tanks. The HB version is not worth it IMHO, as even the ability to re-roll wounds only gives it a 55% of wounding T6. However, the MM and HF versions are decent.
The only drawback I really see with the immolator is that the sister squads do very well with 2 MGs per squad, its just a natural fit for the rhino.

Agreed - I still love the Immolator, no matter what anyone says. I would say that if someone were running a small Conclave, then I could see a place for the HB Immolator as their DT - if you're using them as counter-assault, the HB is of more use over the course of the battle than the T-L HF, but I'd think that'd be down to personal preference. Still, it's nice to see someone being positive about the good aspects of the Codex, at least!

I actually just wrote what I consider a hilarious list on a local board based around TLMM Immos (which are pretty awesome). It's funny because it utilizes Repentia instead of the standard 2 melta as your forward core.

Celestine
Uriah Bomb (8 Henchmen) in Rhino
Sister Squad (10 BS, Melta/HF, Chainsword) in TLMM Immo
Sister Squad (10 BS, Melta/HF, Chainsword) in TLMM Immo
Sister Squad (10 BS, Melta/HF, Chainsword) in TLMM Immo
Dominions (5 Dom, Flamer x2, CombiM, Chainsword) in TLMM Immo
Dominions (5 Dom, Flamer x2, CombiM, Chainsword) in TLMM Immo
Dominions (5 Dom, Flamer x2, CombiM, Chainsword) in TLMM Immo
Repentia x5
Repentia x5
Repentia x5
Priests (Elite) x3

Priests attach to Repentia and go into Sister Immos which follow behind Dominion Immos. Uriah Bomb is countercharge and Celestine is a big ol' distraction. 1995 points. Sisters Squads walk up behind.

You popped my Immo? Oh noes! My fearless girls will just charge out of it and eat your face.


Scale to 2500?
Add three Exorcists
Add 5 Sisters to One Squad
Add 2 Sisters to another squad
Add 1 Henchman to the Bomb.

pretre wrote:I actually just wrote what I consider a hilarious list on a local board based around TLMM Immos (which are pretty awesome). It's funny because it utilizes Repentia instead of the standard 2 melta as your forward core.

Celestine
Uriah Bomb (8 Henchmen) in Rhino
Sister Squad (10 BS, Melta/HF, Chainsword) in TLMM Immo
Sister Squad (10 BS, Melta/HF, Chainsword) in TLMM Immo
Sister Squad (10 BS, Melta/HF, Chainsword) in TLMM Immo
Dominions (5 Dom, Flamer x2, CombiM, Chainsword) in TLMM Immo
Dominions (5 Dom, Flamer x2, CombiM, Chainsword) in TLMM Immo
Dominions (5 Dom, Flamer x2, CombiM, Chainsword) in TLMM Immo
Repentia x5
Repentia x5
Repentia x5
Priests (Elite) x3

Priests attach to Repentia and go into Sister Immos which follow behind Dominion Immos. Uriah Bomb is countercharge and Celestine is a big ol' distraction. 1995 points. Sisters Squads walk up behind.

You popped my Immo? Oh noes! My fearless girls will just charge out of it and eat your face.


Scale to 2500?
Add three Exorcists
Add 5 Sisters to One Squad
Add 2 Sisters to another squad
Add 1 Henchman to the Bomb.

Ah, funny indeed !

Will give something like this a try in one of my campaign game :p

Nub question time!

I see a lot of people using Uriah with things like DCAs and other heavy hitters. I'm kind of afraid of getting Uriah out too far on his own since his rolls are so important (And his statline is meh despite his bonuses). What are preferred tactics for running Uriah and his bomb squad?

Kyrinov, how useful? In terms of getting stuck in he's better than Uriah (and MUCH better than a vanilla priest) but at his point level and role its tempting to just take Celestine. I just can't find an assault squad worthy of him.

In what situations are Seraphim pistols worth it?

I consider Kyrinov absolutely worthless; other than the fearless bubble Celestine does everything I could want from him better. Laud Hailer is just bad, and simulacrum I've yet to be concerned about. Jacobus gives me a chance for more faith which lets me just attempt again on units~

+1 attack and FNP is going to give me more due to DCA bomb. I find I just keep him in a rhino around my units to deal with deep strike and close combat. Counter charge they are beautiful. At the same time if you have lots of scouts you can usually dart that rhino up for free along one side of the board.

Seraphim pistols are very expensive but double shot is going to get their points back. The hand flamers, although weaker in strength, can re-roll wounds with an AoF. Dropping 4 twin-linked s3 templates is actually very effective. And even when I've lost one of my inferno pistol girls before getting into range, I still get two shots on the inferno and that's never not been enough, even vs multi wound termis, so far.

I find with double scout melta doms, seraphim with flamers and celestine around (careful of non-fearless running off the board) are going to find units they can unload on in the 5 armies I've been against. Eviscerator gives you some tank chase still if you want; though I've not been totally sold on it. Either way you have a screen in the scout rhinos getting eaten, and your troop rhinos moving up, and shots being used against the exorcists.

Inferno pistols I've always found make my points, it just means the seraphim provide extra control on the map; considerably more if there is some good solid terrain near mid field, and sometimes my Uriah chases behind them if the other team have a great jump assault unit

If

I do not understand why Laud Hailer can't be chosen on the vehicles... We have plenty bits to do it after all...
I think this effect can be useful but with only very little laud hailer on an army, it will lack regularity. The price is another problem. Too bad, it does not give stubborn bubble at it was said in one or another post about the first rumors...

I am not sure about the utility to pay 20pts for the simulacrum neither... Especially because faith does not seem to be a strategy pilar of new lists... more like a small sprinkling of nice advantages.

I can't see how to include Kyrinov efficiently... If his fearless bubble was 12", I would go for him in a fun horde infantry list... without thinking it can really be competitive anyway.

@Grenat:
The no Laud Hailer on Vehicles is silly. BUT it allows you to use those cool bits on whatever vehicle you want now.

Simulacrum is not really worth it for 20 points. Wasn't in the old book, still isn't now.

Kyrinov can be used very effectively to maintain a fearless bubble amongst models currently guarding the objective on your miniature shelf.

Petrojsko wrote:I see a lot of people using Uriah with things like DCAs and other heavy hitters. I'm kind of afraid of getting Uriah out too far on his own since his rolls are so important (And his statline is meh despite his bonuses). What are preferred tactics for running Uriah and his bomb squad?

The trick lies in correct placement of your models when you assault. Read p49 of the BRB on how ICs assault.

So what you want to do is deploy Uriah behind the Jacoubs posse' when you leave the transport. As you assault, make sure that any enemy IC is engaged by your posse' so he cannot react to the assault all over Uriah's ass. On the first turn, you can even keep Uriah out of the assault if you have engaged all the enemy models and Uriah cannot reach any. (though he will have to pile-in if the assault goes more than 1 turn). When you do pile-in, make sure he is only facing one enemy model so the number of counter-attacks on him will be minimal.

Given the hitting power of your Jacoubs posse' you should be able to beat through your target in 1 or 2 turns of battle.

Exactly what labmouse42 said. IC protection is an art.

pretre wrote:Kyrinov can be used very effectively to maintain a fearless bubble amongst models currently guarding the objective on your miniature shelf.

+1 because that's exactly what my mini of him from years ago is doing right now.

But yeah, another agreement to making sure Uriah is leading from the rear! It's a shame you can't crusader absorb his hits.

Because I'm still unsure as to 2 or 3 Crusaders mind you, what do others include in their unit loadout for Uriah bomb?

I'm going to try out 3 Crusaders, 5 DCA and Uriah. I've contemplated an Arco or two for Multiassaults against vehicles.

Also, Kyrinov makes a great CCS for my Guard Army.

Grenat wrote:I can't see how to include Kyrinov efficiently... If his fearless bubble was 12", I would go for him in a fun horde infantry list... without thinking it can really be competitive anyway.

sssssssssssssssssssssss.........ssssssssssssssssssssssssss
...................................s......s.......................................
SSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSS K SSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSS
...................................s......s.......................................
sssssssssssssssssssssss.........ssssssssssssssssssssssssss

The S's are sister squads of 20 sisters each. I seperated them as big S's and little S's to help make it easier to seperate them. The K is Kyrinov.
Its the same tactic that orks use for Kustom FF's.

If you want to go with more of a 'battleplan amoeba' strategy, then instead of making lines of sisters, you just make them blobs. So long as part of them are within 6" of your IC, your fine.


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pretre wrote:I'm going to try out 3 Crusaders, 5 DCA and Uriah.

That's what I was thinking as well. Add 1 flail for the 5 STR 5 attacks so you can hit vehicles, and you have a dead 'ard assault unit for under 200 points.

I'm not saying that it will beat 10 TH/SS termies with Shrike, or an Vect and a squad of Incubi, but it will be able to handle most assault squads pretty well.

stupid TH/SS really wreck my day now we dont have 3++

I can't ever see me needing arco's mind you, with the role they play I just don't see AV being a problem, I'd rather keep my power weapons in there.

Less said about S5 or 4 Arcos the better of course ;3 Gosh darn do I miss blessed weapons; Celestine without Hit n Run means she has to accept ressurection to get out of tar too

Actually, against the incubi, you're probably okay. TH/SS you might even be okay.

5 * 5 I6, S4, WS5 attacks on the charge. 25 attacks / 16.67 with reroll on charge = 22.22 hits.

11.11 Wounds. 3.69 dead SS Terms on the Charge at I6.

Then Crusaders = 9 Attacks. 8 Hits. 2.66 wounds. 0.888 Dead.

4.58 Dead by I3, not counting Jacobus. That's a pretty messed up TH/SS squad.

Edit: So we'll say a 10 man squad (crazy, I know). 6 Swing back. 12 Attacks. 6 Hits. 5 Wounds. Assign 3 to Crusaders. 1 Dead. Assign 2 to DCA. 1.333 dead.

That's net win for the Bomb. If it is a combat squad, then they're dead.

I admit, I'm dubious about using Arcos in Conclaves myself. The new Codex puts a bit of a cost premium on 'generalist' squads - I'd rather keep my Conclave as killy as possible, and rely on my anti-mech specialists to crack open the shell so my DCAs can get at the soft, chewy centre.

Infiltrating TH/SS deathstars aside, the Conclave is certainly an assault beast, and its value isn't to be underestimated. At the same time, wager on your opponent pegging it as one of their highest-priority targets as a result.

Multi wound GKs?

Edit:
I just realised that rarely, I used to take a GK ally shooty inquis with psycannon, plasma cannon and heavy bolters, with a Landraider for fun because I could convert it in a chapel (inquisitor is the female commissar model, and quite sister-y).

I would have rather liked to have an LR transport my Uriah bomb into battle, or even put repentia in it to have fun with them~

I'm not really seeing a lot of use in putting the crusaders in the conclave. I guess if you are worried about having to charge into cover. I'm really liking the idea of 9 DCA + mr. feel no pain. The addition of feel no paint to the unit means that they can actually survive their ride getting blown up or take some small arms fire without needing the crusaders to soak up the wounds.

I'm also surprised I'm not seeing a lot of people talking about putting the combi's on the sergeants. With the acts the way they are for battle sisters and dominions I'm thinking about taking a lof of combi-plasma and combi-flamers.

5 dominion with 2 melta guns, a combi-plasma, inside of a multi-melta immolator just sounds scary to me. With the twin linking I see them dropping monstrous creatures like candy. Not to mention dishing out tons of wounds.

My old setup was melta on celestians and flamers on the battle sister squads. I feel like now I want melta on the battle sister squads and flamers on the dominions (for the twin link). The problem being of course the dominions are also awesome for putting the melta's on them as well.

pretre wrote:That's net win for the Bomb. If it is a combat squad, then they're dead.

That's a good point. For a squad that's under 200 points, the posse' can open a barrel of whoop-ass.

@Warmaster: That's actually why my dominions are twin flamer, combi-melta in a TL-MM Immo. TL on Flamers is hot.

That's what makes seraphim flamers surprisingly sexy despite them being S3; four shots + faith making them the equiv of twin linked.

As for immolator dominions, I've found that it's going to get asploded on round 1 more often than not anywho~

The problem with Uriah's FNP, is we're talking about T3 models and if you are counter charging you can bet you're up against power weapons; that's what makes the crusader payoff worth considering. It also lets them get places~

Minor edit: I'd actually happily take the extra specials in a rhino over an immo at the moment, but that's just because Immo's don't have pseudo fast so I sulk at them

One hidden gem in the list to me is the heavy flamer retributor. Even at 20 points a pop. A unit of 5 with 4 heavy flamers kills 7 marines on average if divine guidance goes off and you get 5 marines underneath the templates. For only 145. Also the only unit I'd even consider the simulacrum, since its so key to get the act off.

Seems to me like a great unit to tail behind the domininions in a rhino. Or perhaps in an immo (although I like the idea of being able to fire from the rhino).

Sure you lose exorcists but without something like the heavy flamer retributor unit the army lacks any major punch against troops.

@Winterman: You need a transport too. I really thought about it because I used to run the ol' Easy Bake Oven in 3rd edition, but haven't yet just because of cost.

Also for everyone taking celstine. If you want a baby sitter unit for her I don't think it should be seraphim. I think it needs to be a battle sister squad on foot. Their act of faith means that you can never auto-run celstine off the table, once the unit takes a casualty (and celestine is with them) it's a 2+ to rally the unit.

It will slow her down a little bit but make it a lot more difficult to deal with. And once she gets where she's going she can split off and leave the battle sister squad alone to do other things.

Still reasonable unit cost to me even with rhino.

List I was considering if I could find some qqing sister player selling/trading the army off

Jacobus 90
K-Man 90

8 conclave in rhino 155
8 conclave in rhino 155

10 B sisters melta bunker (rhino, MM, MG, Combi-MG) 190
10 B sisters melta bunker (rhino, MM, MG, Combi-MG) 190

5 Dominion combi-melta, 2x MG in MM-immolater 180
5 Dominion combi-melta, 2x MG in MM-immolater 180
5 Dominion combi-melta, 2x MG in MM-immolater 180

5 Retributor 4 heavy flamer, Simulcrum in rhino 200
5 Retributor 4 heavy flamer, Simulcrum in rhino 200
5 Retributor 4 heavy flamer, in rhino 180 (K-man in here).

10 points left, probably put dozer blades on the bsisters rhino.

Follow scouting dominion wave with cleansing retibutor flamerage. Conclaves pull counter charge duty, with the doms and rets as the bait. K-man gives the bait some staying power if needed and his laud hailer gets more work potentially with the simulcrums in play.

Light on troops for my taste but seems workable. Also more fun to me then usual mech builds, could also mix the load outs a bit to eliminate the same-e-ness.

I was asking about Heavy Flamer retributors when the first half was released ;3 sadly the 20 point cost means I don't consider it viable.

As far as celestine goes: I usually have her behind rhinos on her way up anyway.

pretre wrote:
Simulacrum is not really worth it for 20 points. Wasn't in the old book, still isn't now.

Only on models that need to Act reliably. Command squads and Repentia, if the Repentia can even have one.

winterman wrote:One hidden gem in the list to me is the heavy flamer retributor. Even at 20 points a pop. A unit of 5 with 4 heavy flamers kills 7 marines on average if divine guidance goes off and you get 5 marines underneath the templates. For only 145. Also the only unit I'd even consider the simulacrum, since its so key to get the act off.

Seems to me like a great unit to tail behind the domininions in a rhino. Or perhaps in an immo (although I like the idea of being able to fire from the rhino).

Sure you lose exorcists but without something like the heavy flamer retributor unit the army lacks any major punch against troops.

200 points for a 5 model unit is just too much, and I still believe you need every Exorcist you can get to deal with MSU transports and MCs.

So, I've been able to get quite a few games in with the new Sisters over the past week, and unfortunately I'm having the least success with them I've ever had with a 40k army. IIRC my record so far is 2/3/7 W/D/L, all at 2000pts. I'm in a fairly competitive area, which I like, but its also brutal on weaker armies. I'm just not sure what to do about the army, maybe you guys have some ideas on how to get over some problems.

1) Staying power: I'm having trouble keeping my units in line. The severe vulnerability to assaults and getting sweeping advanced is really taking its toll. I'm getting beaten in CC by Tac squads and gaunts pretty consistently. As a result, I'm noticing my playstyle is getting more paranoid when it comes to BSS squads, and mainly just using them for firing out of Rhino hatches and making scoring Rhinos, very Tau-like. Having a conclave is nice, and has been able to reliably take out one unit or so, not quite enough to compenstate for the fragility of the rest of the army.

2) Psykic defense: I've been getting beaten down pretty bad by Librarians lately too. Specifically, an opponents dual Fear the Darkness BA libby army isn't even breaking a sweat while running me off the table. Once those Rhinos are popped my units are running. GKs abilities haven't been too bad, in CC I'm toast anyway regardless of Hammerhand. These are similar problems my Tau have been having lately, just not used to it with my Sisters.

3) Changing Target Priority: Some of my opponents are starting to realize that my infantry aren't as solid as they used to be, and as a result my Exorcists have been getting slammed hard and early, while Rhinos are generally ignored, or just shaken then ignored. My opponents used to worry about getting stuck in combat and tarpitted with the Sisters, but they are starting to realize that if they can withstand their own rhinos getting popped by close-up meltas, then they can usually get rid of the Girls in CC next turn. Now, Exorcists are comparatively a greater threat, resulting in most/all anti-tank weaponry going for them early.

My army does seem to have enough firepower, its really just everything else I'm having trouble with (leadership, CC, Psykers, KPs and C&C missions). I'm pretty close to shelving them and/or just painting them for a while.

Is anyone having consistent good actual experiences with Sisters at 2000 and higher? Offer any tips? Theory and mathing it out is great, but it's just not transitioning to the tabletop for me.

No advice; I really miss BosL and 3++. Celestine does her job at least, but essentially we're just weak.

YMMV but I've been finding the Uriah bomb good for controlling when I get cc crushed. It's so weird to find people hiding from my sisters in cc now, when that's what I used to do.

Obviously we have no option at all about psy powers, and the only.

Consider a second Confessor for a second DCA unit? Maybe even Kyrinov and his fearless bubble?

What you are describing was one of by bigger fears. Unless you beat that SM unit you are shooting at down to 5 models or so, it's going to charge you and beat you in melee eventually.

Spiku wrote:The problem with Uriah's FNP, is we're talking about T3 models and if you are counter charging you can bet you're up against power weapons; that's what makes the crusader payoff worth considering. It also lets them get places~

it also lets them take a few shots if their transport is popped. They can still take some hits on the crusaders before losing their fragile assassins.


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Creeping Dementia wrote:Is anyone having consistent good actual experiences with Sisters at 2000 and higher? Offer any tips? Theory and mathing it out is great, but it's just not transitioning to the tabletop for me.

Can you post your list?

I can tell you right now that if I was playing a marine army, and I saw a sisters squad with my TAC squad, I would assault it. The STR 3 T 3 are just to big of disadvantages. Without the book of st cheeze, its easy to push them off the board. The fact is a sisters squad outside their rhino is just waiting for assault. They need that candy shell to keep them safe.

As another idea, can you try this list and see how it works? (using proxies)
9 Penenient Engines each as its own unit.
2 Conclave squads
As many rhinos as possible to screen your sisters.
The strategy is to use your rhinos to pop transports with MGs/MMs. Use your engines and conclaves to assault the crap out whatever you popped.
You will need to run your engines every turn, so they will be going 9.5 inches a turn. This means you move your rhinos up on turn 1 and pop smoke. The engines get obscurement from the rhinos. On turn 2, move up a bit more but not a full 12, or else your engines will lose thier cover. By turn 3, you should be popping and then the engines should be doing their work.
This will work better vs assault armies, such as BA.

Thats all on paper. If you have the proper group to play with, can you try it and see how it works?

After several re-writes, my current list stands at:

St. Celestine
Jacobus
Conclave: 3 Crusaders, 6 DCA, Rhino w/ searchlight

10 Dominions- 4 meltas, Simulacrum, Rhino w/ searchlight
10 Dominions- 4 meltas, Simulacrum, Rhino w/ searchlight
10 Dominions- 4 flamers, Simulacrum, Rhino w/ searchlight

Exorcist
Exorcist
Exorcist

BSS squad- 2 meltas, Rhino w/ searchlight
BSS squad- 2 meltas, Rhino w/ searchlight
BSS squad- 2 meltas, Rhino w/ searchlight


I dropped Heavy Flamers out of everything, they're just too expensive and without Divine Guidance I'm finding the extra Melta to be a better all-comer choice. That does leave lists more vulnerable to hordes, but I can't worry about hordes if I can't beat marines first.

I have run Immolator Dominions in the past as well, but it really just comes down to; is 80 points worth a single Multi melta shot? I'm not seeing that to be the case, and more bodies has been more beneficial. I've run Seraphim as well, but they just don't have any utility and serve no real purpose in the army.

Celestine is sort of a weird fit in this list, but its hard to pass up on one of the only obviously good units in the Dex. My next step will be to try dropping her for another conclave.




As for a Penitent army idea, I might try subbing it out and see what happens. I don't really see the point in playtesting an army I'd never actually purchase models for in the future, but it might be fun. Obvious weaknesses for it would be KP missions, and DE opponents.

Creeping Dementia wrote:
10 Dominions- 4 meltas, Simulacrum, Rhino w/ searchlight
10 Dominions- 4 meltas, Simulacrum, Rhino w/ searchlight

How would you compare the effectiveness of the 10 member squad as compared to a 5 member squad? The reason I ask is that I think you might be able to cut down on the squad size of these two in exchance for some combi weapons on all of the squads.

Based on your experience using these squads, would you get similar results if you were to use 5 Dominions-2 meltas, combi-plasma gun, Rhino w/ searchlight? You still get a good round of four high strength AP shots at a fraction of the points.

And generally I feel that you dont need simulacrum on the squad unless you only expect to get only one round of very important shooting and then proceed to take one to the face. With the 10 member unit it seems like you want them to stick around, but the simulacrum tells me otherwise. Their BS is high enough that you are not going to miss that much anyway.

Take it from Arnold, "Between your faith and my Glock nine millimeter, I'll take the Glock." Another weapon to complement the squad's special weapons is better than re-rolling faith checks for the ones you have.

I actually like the 10 man squads, because it gives us a chance to survive firing. The only problem is it increases our chances of having points tied up in cc, which is the end of days for us.

I don't agree with the simulacrum, because whilst the points are essentially going back into the unit to ensure the few misses on meltas hit, it could go toward combi-meltas or possibly an eviscerator.

The shame of dominions is that you can only fire two of the meltas from the rhino anyway ;3

Some of the comments in: http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/394589.page may help

Yeah, my first reaction would be to cut the Doms to 5, or the sims. What I don't know is what I would add. If you cut sims, which I probably would at 10 model units, I'd add combis. Nothing else to add, really.

If you cut to 5 model Doms I'd try a Repentia unit, or swapping Celestine for Kryinov/Confessor and a second DCA unit.

Creeping Dementia wrote:After several re-writes, my current list stands at:

St. Celestine
Jacobus
Conclave: 3 Crusaders, 6 DCA, Rhino w/ searchlight

10 Dominions- 4 meltas, Simulacrum, Rhino w/ searchlight
10 Dominions- 4 meltas, Simulacrum, Rhino w/ searchlight
10 Dominions- 4 flamers, Simulacrum, Rhino w/ searchlight

Exorcist
Exorcist
Exorcist

BSS squad- 2 meltas, Rhino w/ searchlight
BSS squad- 2 meltas, Rhino w/ searchlight
BSS squad- 2 meltas, Rhino w/ searchlight

That looks like a pretty solid list. You have the Exorcists to crack armor at range, you have the conclave squad to do some good counter assault, and you have some melta gun squads. But your telling us that its just not coming together and your getting wiped in the assault phase.

Like a recepie, the quanity of specific amounts can be the difference between success and failure. If your getting clobbered in assault, then you need to determine how to address the issue and resolve it. There are two solutions to keep yourself from being assaulted to death. The first solution is to bring counter assault units that can do the job on theirs, and the second solution is to keep yourself from being assaulted.

* We agree that the Conclave is an awesome CC unit. Why not bring 2 of them and drop St. Celestine? While St. Celestine is beautiful, she cannot wipe a squad of MEQ in 1 round of assault, where a Conclave unit can. It also brings more synargy to your army, as you don't have a single model sitting out waiting for AC/LC shots to insta-kill her. If you add another conclave squad, you will increase the overall power of your assault force. Sure, it wont be another Jacobus posse' but its still pretty darn good.

* If you run the mathhammer, 10 battle sisters with 2 MG wont do much against a squad of MEQ your going to kill ~3.5 of them. If that's the case, you need to make sure you never fire just 1 squad at 1 squad, but instead always bring 2 of yours to 1 of theirs. To help even the odds more in your favor, take combi-plasma on your sisters superior, which will kill about .8 more MEQ per squad. So long as your enemy is not in cover, that's a good option. Otherwise the sisters need to stay in their rhinos.

* Dominions can bring lots of fire to the game. 10 of them will kill ~5 MEQ in a round of shooting, which is not bad. (assuming their twin linked). You will still need to use 2 squads of them to finish one squad of enemy. Another option is to lower them to 5 woman squads and use them as cheap melta-bunkers. Another idea is to go with an immolator. A final idea I wanted to share is the 4 flamers. If each flamer can hit 6 MEQ, thats 24 hits. If your twin linked thats 18 wounds, or 6 dead MEQ -- a decent number and much better against horde.

I think the standard format for a successful sisters army has changed, and new successful formats need to be determined.

Twin re-rolled flamer dominions, with a melta immolator, work rather well. The MM immolator pops the vehical, the doms toast them.

I consider Clestine valuable as she does draw some fire, and will return to the fray, she adds a certain level of field control that I find appreciable. If I could have a second Uriah, I'd jump on a second conclave~

Magic Juggler has made me consider the MM in sister squads as objective holders, because they do scare off vehicals very well, and essentially they are not good at anything at all anyway, so why not.

What I found at 2000 was that the seraphim with flamers and celestine were the face of the army. Every one knows that uriah and 9 dca are brutal, so it falls on the seraphim and celestine to lead point while uriah counter charges. With celestine detached, the seraphim can hit and run, and they are the only unit of sisters have eviserators.

I also have combi weapons on everything, 3 exo, 2 dominions with melta, and 3 melta bss.