IG Commandments, because some of our brother generals don't get it yet.

1) Thou Shalt not waste money on wargear.

2) Thou Shalt not mix weapons in Heavy Weapon Squads.

3) Thou Shalt not spend more than 75 points on each Hardened Veteran Sqd. 

4) Thou Shalt use complimentary Heavy/special weapons. (Don't mix 48" and 12" range weapons within a single Infantry Squad)

5) Thou Shalt not use only 1 tank.

6) Thou Shalt not use mortars EVER and grenade launchers sometimes...maybe...

7) Thou Shalt not forget your troopers are only BS3/ 5+sv.

8) Thou Shalt not waste a doctrine point to change this.

9) Thou Shalt not be cheap and attempt to do with 3 missile launchers, what should be done with 3 las-cannons

10) Thou Shalt not post army lists with broken Commandments and ask if it's a "good list".

IG GOLDEN RULE: Everything Counts in Large Amounts!!

* Some have mentioned putting PPs in the Vet sqds. As a sacrificial unit, I think the 20-30 points are better spent elsewhere. Thats another sacrifial unit of remnants w/ a flamer...

* RR's are the best Counter Assault we've got, but don't over do it with them. Anything beyond 6 is too many. This is the only unit worth paying for the Vet SGT upgrade. I wouldn't bother with anywargear though.

* It's been brought to my attention that a single Bassy might be worth breaking the 5th Commandment. I'm not convinced though. If I can field 1, I can find the points to field 2. If I'm playing under 1k pts, I generally wouldn't field any.

 (list based off principals that HBMC has pointed out too many times to not sink in yet)

Agreed on all points.


To elaborate:

Imperial Guard is one of the most complex armies to make a list for in 40,000, and the doctrines give you a lot of rope to hang yourself with.

The Codex was also not written with 4th ed. rules in mind - so a lot of the choices have become bad to the point of being nonsensical as a result. Some options (shotguns) just blew to the begin with. Others (Enginseers) have been neutered by FAQs in ways not immediately apparent from their entry in the Codex.

The result of these things is that most Imperial Guard armies tend to have a lot of common elements. Too much deviation from these in a standard regiment tends to result in a list that really doesn't have enough firepower to accomplish what it needs to do.

Nice work, I think this is some great advice.  There's a few things I would add:

- When in doubt, Rough Riders are your best bet for counter-charge
- Iron Discipline is one of the best Doctrines in the list
- Sharpshooters is really only cost effective in heavy weapon squads

And the Golden Rule of the IG:
Quantity has a quality all it's own

Not to go against my own advice, but in a thread at the Relic forums recently someone posted up a big thing on Guard (that I wrote), and it generated some interesting responces. They was the usual amount of noise from people saying "How can you not like Missile Launchers - they're better than ACs!", all of which was pretty easy to shoot down. However, one particular poster came up with a weapon combo that I honestly hadn't thought of and, now that I've been thinking about it, it doesn't seem that bad.

It's the HB/GL squad. 3 S5 AP4 shots at 36", and 3 S5 AP4 + 1 S6 AP4 shot at 24". I want to test it out.

BYE

Ok some questions, as I'm starting IG myself (n00b alert).

Should you give special weapons to command squads, if so, what and how many?

Is it a good idea to take a sacrificial light infantry unit to push back infiltrators (70pts, maybe 76 with flamer)? What about using 5 vets without special weapons for this role (45)? Or even giving light infantry to a weaponless command squad (only 10pts)?

Is it worth giving heavy weapon squads light infantry if you have 3 heavy support and 2 troops to deploy first?

Do rough riders have to have at least a certain amount to be useful? Are rough riders important in a 3 lemun ~80 man army?

Would you ever give infantry squads a meltagun?

is it dumb to give multiple (4?) grenade launchers to a command squad, just to jump out and shoot within 24?

-g

Ok some questions, as I'm starting IG myself (n00b alert).

Should you give special weapons to command squads, if so, what and how many?

Is it a good idea to take a sacrificial light infantry unit to push back infiltrators (70pts, maybe 76 with flamer)? What about using 5 vets without special weapons for this role (45)? Or even giving light infantry to a weaponless command squad (only 10pts)?

That is why you have tanks and hellhounds, infiltrators want to be up close and in cover, you want your tanks to be behind any cover you can get on turn one, especially now that you can move and shoot. however, in all infantry guard, push back units can be a good idea.

Is it worth giving heavy weapon squads light infantry if you have 3 heavy support and 2 troops to deploy first?
It all depends on a the list. However in general light infantry and heavy weapon squads mix well, but personally not a big fan of heavy weapon squads.

Do rough riders have to have at least a certain amount to be useful? Are rough riders important in a 3 lemun ~80 man army?
Yes, I would go 5 and a vet as the minimum size to take. Also, they are very important, no matter how good your shooting something will reach your lines..... Make sure it dies....

Would you ever give infantry squads a meltagun?
No, It would only get one shot a game, and then only if I was very lucky.

"is it dumb to give multiple (4?) grenade launchers to a command squad, just to jump out and shoot within 24? "

I wouldn't say dumb. There are more effective choices though. This combo can do a lot of damage vs. Tau - but the trouble with that is that you'll only get one shot and you likely won't be able to do enough damage to make it worthwhile.

"Would you ever give infantry squads a meltagun?"

Yep. Deep Striking (drop troops) Remnant squads with a Meltagun are only 40 points and reasonably effective.

I wouldn't give it to line infantry squads though.

Posted By H.B.M.C. on 02/27/2006 2:39 AM

It's the HB/GL squad. 3 S5 AP4 shots at 36", and 3 S5 AP4 + 1 S6 AP4 shot at 24". I want to test it out.

I've been building my list using this as there really didn't seem to be much else that really paired-up well with the heavy bolter... the heavy bolter/flamer and heavy bolter/plasma both didn't make much sense to me... as neither weapon really matches-up well with the heavy bolter.

Posted By H.B.M.C. on 02/27/2006 2:39 AM

...doesn't seem that bad...GL squad...want to test it out.

BYE

The apocalypse is coming.  Or someone else is borrowing the account...

@onlainari: Heavy weapons platoons can actually do reasonably well in the role for which you imagine them - sacrificial officers and sneaky grunts. You get a forty point squad as heavy support, perfect for pushback duty, then 3-9 heavy bolters, or autocannon if you're in a light-vehicle-heavy meta. Jungle Fighters is all right if you tend to play with a couple of forests - it's even nicer if you can find a 7"+ deeper wood and deploy them just inside it - shoot your heart out with direct fire weapons and avoid return fire. Sharpshooters can work okay on heavy bolter squads as well, as you're bound to roll a few ones. One other little squad I've always like the looks of is a platoon command squad with Honorifica Imperialis, Iron Discipline and close order drill. 70 points for LD10, and noone else has to bunch up unless they want the I bonus. Give the Command HQ a banner (56 points with Iron Discipline) and you have your "general" and "bsb" split up.

Tangentially - or more generally - missile launchers actually are the most efficient anti-MEQ heavy weapon available to IG infantry. (note bold) I've got a personal bias against AT squads in general, as they make your big guns a little too easy to pick off. As the commandment goes, they're not space marines and they can't play at being devastators with only three ablatives for anti-tank guns. Lascannon/plasma gun is generally the best standard infantry armanent, barring a fluke in your environment like a lack of MEQs and/or AV13+ vehicles. Since the rest of the squad only has lasguns, you don't really sacrifice much firepower when targetting vehicles.

None of the IG weapon options are truly bad on all units, but a lot of them are bad against the most common armies all around. Mortar squads, for instance, do quite well against lighter infantry and vehicles, especially open-topped ones. Some people have decent luck with massed sentinels and gl/sb squads, for instance, due to non-traditional tactics and environments. If there aren't too many assault cannon floating around, carapace armour can be an interesting twist. However, assuming a 50%+ MEQ environment and a traditional, static IG line, the commandments are a definite starting point. If I might add one final commandment: Don't take Senior Officers unless you're feeling VERY fluffy. Voxes are also generally useless - independent squads will usually be better off with a Veteran Sergeant, who with COD will provide LD9.

edit - actually, I've got a point of confusion myself - do Advisors assigned to a squad with a doctrine also benefit from that doctrine? So, can a Commissar attached to Hardened Veterans infiltrate, does a Priest attached to a squad with Carapace Armour get a free suit, etc.?

wight-widow: advisors are considered part of their squad for all purposes, including doctrines, etc.  While the Vets infiltrate isn't a doctrine, the Commisar still gets a free ride, assuming you can actually attach him to the vets (they go to command sections first)

Keep in mind that the LD bonus of COD only applies to that squad for morale and pinning tests, it's not a general +1 to LD.  This means that an officer with COD can't use that bonus for his Leadership special rule.  The whole rule is a bit vague, but they've FAQ'd it pretty well by now.

As for HB/GL squads, they seem to be the natural descendant of the AC/GL squads back from the Rhino Rush days, except more geared up for Landspeeders or Tau then Rhinos.  This certainly merits playtesting, but I think that the mobility of a single GL in that squad is trumped by the increased power of the PG.  That said, i think that in an infantry heavy force, 4 GLs might have an advantage: enough S6 to threaten light vehicles, decent mobility (for IG), and it can hide and provide LD and Iron D. without losing much serious fire power.  This is similar to the 4 flamer squads, though with 24" range, they'll probobly get to fire once or twice a game, as opposed to every other game or so for the flamers. 

I seriously think the efforts to make GLs work stems from them simply being the most common special weapon in the range.  IIRC, only Tanith does not have a GL model, and Cadians get it in plastic.  I play praetorians, so I have stacks of GLs, and every plasma gun is a converstion, but the PG has only gotten better over time, while one of the perenial threats that the GL dealt with (transports) have dwindled in prevelance.

The list is great, although I would call Commandment 6 optional. I always give my HQ squad a mortar, just so that they get to do something while they're lurking around, providing leadership. GLs, it's hard to avoid becuase there are just so damn many of the buggers in whatever infantry box you buy.

Hmm, you guys may have a point about the GLs. I guess, if they are mashed into a PHQ, they might be relatively effective. Not to mention that Bookey has a point about the overabundance of them. Let's face it though. IMHO, the fact that they are so overly abundant shows their actual gaming value. If they were effective, GW would have made all of the Specials plastic. As it is, we're forced to spend an extra $10 to make a single sqd more effective.

In referance to the mortars though, I can only see them being somewhat effective if an entire "leg" army were to use them as their entire HW arsenal. Ok, maybe only a full HW Platoon of them. Let's face it though, they're just not effective on a 1 for 1 basis. More importantly, I can't think of a complimentary Special weapon. I'll take an AC/HB over it any day and have started the converting to make all of my line boys w/ Plasma guns.

Also, please Veterans, feel free to LMK of anything that needs to be added so our fellow Generals can learn from your XP... not that they'll bother rerading it or anything...

"I can only see them being somewhat effective if an entire "leg" army were to use them as their entire HW arsenal."

I did work something out like that a while back, seeing if I could make Mortars useful. I found that in order to make them useful you literally have to take nothing but Mortars, and that's just not worth it.

BYE

Changed to reflect mortars and GLs

Ok, now Flagg you said to search the forums before posting ny questions so don't blow a gasket, I did and have a question, (I have the reference sheet in front of me so I know these are legal)

I was interested in the following Doctrines
Cameleoline Cloaks, Cyber Armor, Iron Discipline, Grenadiers, and either Light Infantry or Jungle Fighters?

Do you believe these are a reasonable Doctrines to take for an escalation league?

I thought the Cameleoline cloaks would be very useful to have with light infantry since you can infiltrate your force to ensure you will have cover, but it might work even better with jungle fighters if I get to play on a board with trees?

Iron Discipline sounds like it is incredibly useful to give you a chance to regroup after being hit hard during the shooting phase.

I took grenadiers so I would be able to possibly field the army a bit cheaper than normal, since I wouldn't have to buy $70 worth of minatures to field one troop choice. . .

Cyber Armor, I thought would be fun for flavor to give the army a bit of its own fluff. . .

Doctrines wise....

ID is near the top of everyone's list in effectiveness.

DT is a popular one, combined with Vets to DS those vet meltas.

Mech- My preferred

LI- 'm looking into myself. Doesn't go with mech....if you can find a loop hole somewhere, think of it in the spirit of the game....2 complete opposites of the Infantry Division...1 or the other.

COD- Has its place I guess

Grens- Way to save a Doctrine point is to use Inducted ST's as an ally, so really no need.

The rest? As far as I'm concerned, see Commandments 1, 7, and 8, but there might be more XP'd generals who can find some devious combinations that might make these good. I'm just not one of them. Grunts backed up by tracks for me.

Don't forget #10 either. That's a biggey. Buying the ACTUAL dex would help you alot with these decisions though.

If you don't understand that posting army lists for armys you don't have a codex for and asking if it's good or not is irritating, then that's your problem. I simply attempted to answer your threads. The response was no, they're not good, becasue they were all illegal due to several discrepancies in every list.

Nobody should have to tell you that your IG list is illegal because you have 2 platoons with a HQ and 1 infantry squad in each. Nobody should have to tell you that you can't take an allied contingent of 2 elite GK sqds and 3 troop GK squads in that same IG force.

IMO, when I read an "is this list good?" thread, it is assumed that the poster has the general gist of what the basic FOC and HQ/Troops lines are. If you don't have the information to do these implied tasks, then you're not ready to post your list, again MHO. You can post your smart comments about me blowing a gasket and I can post smart comments about your ASS licking lists and contradictory statements till said Ass comes home. Atleast I can rest knowing that I taught you to search for info about your future projects first. Good job learning from me. Keep it up and you might just be able to throw up a list that is legal.

(Flagg, I am currently looking at the Armored Company vehicle download list so yes, I have a codex to read out of)

I am just wondering but why do so many people seem to prefer the heavy bolter sponsons to the Plasma Cannon Sponsons and a hull mounted Las-cannon on the Demolisher Tank? I have read a few dozen posts about peoples army lists, and each time people have yelled at them for having these on their Leman Russ Demolisher's?

I can only think of a few reasons and all seem circumspect but I could be biased because my usual army is Space Marines who get killed all the time by plasma cannons. . .

Reason 1: 35 points to put the plasma cannons and the Las-cannon on could be considered rather exspencive, however the increased range while you move up is nice.

Reason 2: You can't move and fire both of these weapons limiting your movement, and your target selections if you do decide to?

Reason 3: Because the demolisher cannon is so powerful people don't see the need to use plasma cannons since if you can kill it with a plasma cannons you should be shooting with your demolisher cannon. . .

Reason 4: If you don't put the plasma and las-cannons on you can put heavy bolters on and 3 hb's firing at once can work better if the armor on your target is only a 4+? This allows you to have more efficient target selection. . .

Posted By H.B.M.C. on 02/27/2006 2:39 AM

Not to go against my own advice, but in a thread at the Relic forums recently someone posted up a big thing on Guard (that I wrote), and it generated some interesting responces. They was the usual amount of noise from people saying "How can you not like Missile Launchers - they're better than ACs!", all of which was pretty easy to shoot down. However, one particular poster came up with a weapon combo that I honestly hadn't thought of and, now that I've been thinking about it, it doesn't seem that bad.

It's the HB/GL squad. 3 S5 AP4 shots at 36", and 3 S5 AP4 + 1 S6 AP4 shot at 24". I want to test it out.

BYE

You've apparently lost your mind. Can I remind everyone that a Grenade Launcher is 8 points and that for only 2 points more you get a plasmagun that has +1S, AP2 and can fire twice 12" and under?

With a Heavy Bolter unit you're going to have to stand still to utilize the HBolter, so you can't take advantage of the *one* positive of the GLauncher. . .the fact that it can move and shoot up to 24".


Why, pray tell, does a plasmagun not "match up" with a Heavy Bolter in a unit? Because the Plasmagun is AP2? Please.

I know the plasmagunner will often kill himself, but for 2 points more to have a weapon that is just as lethal against troops and light vehicles and superior to the Grenade Launcher in every real way. . .

. . .I think you've gone soft, HBMC. I expect better. 

Agree with Yak...what are you smoking, HBMC?

As a reasonably experienced Guard player, here are my two cents:

The ten commandments Flagg07 list are pretty much right on the money, although I?d add some provisios:


1) Thou Shalt not waste money on wargear.

True enough. Although are we talking solely Wargear or anything from the Armoury? If it?s the latter, there are some weapons worth taking. I know many IG players swear by cheap-and-plentiful Power Weapons, for example, but I?ve never liked them. I also like adding Plasma Pistols to a deepstriking Plasma-toting Hardened Veteran Squad sometimes, just for that extra shot, but if I ever ran the math on it I?m sure I?d find it?s probably not worth it. It?s also expensive, costing the same as a regular Plasmagun.

The only pieces of Wargear I?d recommend are these four (in order of importance): the Honorifica Imperalis (for whatever reason ? most IG players like to save five points by making their Commander a JO w/HI which always struck me as extremely foolish, but in large battles I?ve always used an HSO and then given another JO the HI to increase the Leadership bubble and have a back-up, and I?ve seen this become more and more common lately); Surveyors (cheap enough to buy several, although be warned if you want line squads to have them then you?ll have to upgrade to Veteran Sergeants, and very useful against Infiltrators); Tech Servitors (only if you take an Enginseer, which I wouldn?t recommend, although I have seen the Cage tactic used very well with two Techmarines in the middle repairing the tanks); and the Macharian Cross (expensive and usually ineffective but very useful in table quarter games when you have to deploy first).

But remember: the First Commandment doesn?t tell us IG players not spend points on Wargear, just not to waste points. So get a little if it?s needed but don?t go overboard.

2) Thou Shalt not mix weapons in Heavy Weapon Squads.

Again, this is true. Of course, I consider it a sin to purchase Heavy Weapon Squads. They?re expensive, overpriced (which are two different things) and fragile.

3) Thou Shalt not spend more than 75 points on Hardened Veterans.

I?m okay with this provided the 75 points is per squad! I like my three squads of deepstriking Vets, thank you very much. And I like sometimes adding that extra Plasma Pistol too. Stupid, I know.

4) Thou Shalt not mix 48" and 12" range weapons within a single Infantry Squad.

Obviously. But I don?t think it?s solely a question of range. It?s the mixture of weapons. A Lascannon should be with nothing else but a Plasmagun (or nothing). It?s either firing at really tough vehicles or at really tough infantry and the Plasma will help out in the latter case. Nothing will help in the former. (Yes, yes, Meltaguns will help but as you state the range is the problem.)

The other weapons can all take on light to medium vehicles and infantry and so can be combined with the Plasmagun or the Grenade Launcher (or again, nothing).

Flamers and Meltaguns shouldn?t be combined with anything. Ever.



I?d also add:

11) Thou Shalt purchase one Improved Comms per three tanks and/or per each 250 points above 1,500.

12) Thou Shalt equip all vehicles (possibly save the lowly Chimerae) with Extra Armour. Smoke Launchers do not offend the Emperor either.

13) Thou Shalt not equip any Sentinels with anything from the Armoury and will think long and hard before giving one a Lascannon.

14) Thou Shalt not take Stormtroopers for any reason when Hardened Veterans are their equal in stats, cheaper in points cost, the same cost (or cheaper) in doctrines, can take more Special Weapons and are more flexible.

15) Thou Shalt acknowledge the only Elite choice worth taking are Hardened Veteran Squads.

16) Thou Shalt start each army list with the following doctrines: Light Infantry, Veterans, Close Order Drill, Drop Troops and Independent Discipline and work forward from there.

17) Thou Shalt not take Plasma Cannons on the Demolisher unless you are planning on performing the Cage.



Asmodai said:
Deep Striking (drop troops) Remnant squads with a Meltagun are only 40 points and reasonably effective.

Aah, but don?t forget you then have to drop the rest of the Platoon, which is generally ineffective (unless you?ve gone all Drop Troops, of course). Or you could walk the rest of the Platoon on but then you lose at least two, and more likely three or four, turns of shooting any Heavy Weapons.

So no, I?d never give Meltaguns to regular line squads unless I was going for an all-deepstriking army.

"14) Thou Shalt not take Stormtroopers for any reason when Hardened Veterans are their equal in stats, cheaper in points cost, the same cost (or cheaper) in doctrines, can take more Special Weapons and are more flexible.

15) Thou Shalt acknowledge the only Elite choice worth taking are Hardened Veteran Squads.

16) Thou Shalt start each army list with the following doctrines: Light Infantry, Veterans, Close Order Drill, Drop Troops and Independent Discipline and work forward from there."


I'd disagree with these. There are quite a few instances where Stormtroopers are woth taking. - Deep Striking is a good example. Stormtroopers are twice as survivable as Vets against basic infantry weapons. They're not quite as optimal a choice as the Vets, but they can be a very effective element of an IG army.

I also disagree on the Vehicle equipment - Chimeras benefit about the most from extra armour, and I'd leave it off of Basilisks completely.

Asmodai said:
I'd disagree with these. There are quite a few instances where Stormtroopers are woth taking. - Deep Striking is a good example. Stormtroopers are twice as survivable as Vets against basic infantry weapons. They're not quite as optimal a choice as the Vets, but they can be a very effective element of an IG army.

Bullhockey. Plain and simple bull. Okay, to consider your argument piecemeal.

One, if deepstriking is an option, Hardended Vets with the Drop Troops doctrine are far better. You can get more special weapons so deal more damage. The unit is cheaper. And you don't have to pay to get the option. And this is meant to be a suicide drop, so the survivability of Stormtroopers is irrelevant. Fact is, they're going to die but would you rather lose more points or less?

And if deepstriking is not an option, or if you're playing in a tournament, the Stormtroopers are screwed. Short range weapons with a slow walking move of 6". Whoopee. The Vets can Infiltrate.

Vets are better at deepstriking, at infiltrating, and at being versatile. And they're cheaper. And pack more firepower. But I'm repeating myself.

(In all honesty, if there's one - or two - places I'd favour Stormtroopers over Vets it's in a Mech or AC list.)


Asmodai said:
I also disagree on the Vehicle equipment - Chimeras benefit about the most from extra armour, and I'd leave it off of Basilisks completely.

About the Basilisk, you're completely right. For some reason that slipped my mind. Doh!

I do put EA on my Chimerae but they don't really benefit from it. There are two main reasons to take Chimerae: as an added gun platform - in which case it should rarely if ever move; or as a last turn objective-grabber - a task to which they are not well-suited.

Again, in a Mech or AC list this would differ.

Posted By Stu-Rat on 02/28/2006 7:58 AM
11) Thou Shalt purchase one Improved Comms per three tanks and/or per each 250 points above 1,500.

12) Thou Shalt equip all vehicles (possibly save the lowly Chimerae) with Extra Armour. Smoke Launchers do not offend the Emperor either.

13) Thou Shalt not equip any Sentinels with anything from the Armoury and will think long and hard before giving one a Lascannon.

14) Thou Shalt not take Stormtroopers for any reason when Hardened Veterans are their equal in stats, cheaper in points cost, the same cost (or cheaper) in doctrines, can take more Special Weapons and are more flexible.

15) Thou Shalt acknowledge the only Elite choice worth taking are Hardened Veteran Squads.

16) Thou Shalt start each army list with the following doctrines: Light Infantry, Veterans, Close Order Drill, Drop Troops and Independent Discipline and work forward from there.

17) Thou Shalt not take Plasma Cannons on the Demolisher unless you are planning on performing the Cage.

I can't agree with a number of your additions, I fear.

11) Improved Comms are nice and all, but investing (in the case of a Mechanized list of 9-12 vehicles) 75-100 pts of an 1850 list in it is overkill. Yes, games with Reserves happen. Yes, having the ability to reroll one failed Reserves roll is very nice. But if you fail 3-4 rolls in a turn, then rethink your plan - hide for an extra turn! You could have been buying guns.

12) Extra Armor is very useful only on transports carrying suicide-equipped units, e.g., multi-melta platoon commands. It is occasionally useful on heavy vehicles (which are scoring units in their own right), for late-game rushes. It isn't mandatory, though - a static gunline army w/3 Russes in the back doesn't care over-much if they can move on turns when they can't shoot.

13) I'll agree with you here - all Sentinels are fragile, easy-to-kill targets. Don't make them more attractive than they already were.

14) Mechanized lists can make good use of Storm Troopers, giving them the mobility they were lacking on foot, and delivering them to positions where their 4+ armor is useful (and where 5+ wouldn't be).

15) See above. And some of the Allied choices aren't horrible, if you're into Allies, particularly the anti-drop pod inquisitor w/his 2 mystics.

16) You left "Mechanized" off your list. Basically, this could be rewritten to something like "Pick one of the organizational doctrines first, and choose only those other doctrines which best compliment it."

17) I just plain disagree here. I wouldn't take a Demolisher WITHOUT buying plasma cannons & a lascannon. It extends the threat radius of the Demolisher by 50%, gives you a variety of choices to apply to different situations, and gives deep striking opponents fits. It's a matter of context, though - in a heavily-mechanized (or all-mechanized) IG force, there is no shortage of high ROF anti-infantry weapons, while AP 2 firepower is seriously limited. The Demolisher helps rectify that.

Posted By Flagg07 on 02/26/2006 9:27 PM

3) Thou Shalt not spend more than 75 points on Hardened Veterans

5) Thou Shalt not use only 1 tank

3) Not so long ago, I got into a conversation revolving around the concept of 3x 10 man vet squads w/3xplas & lascannon. For relatively few points over the cost of a basic line squad (where "few" means "less than 33% more"), you gained infiltrate, 2 more plasma guns, and better BS. I'm not sold on the idea yet, but I'm not willing to cast this rule into stone either. Testing needed (from a non-mechanized player; it wouldn't go as well with a mechanized approach).

5) "Thou shalt not use only one battle tank." A single indirect basilisk, added to an all-infantry force, is still quite effective, terrain permitting.

i dont think you should ever pay more then 85 points for H.vets
they should always have the drop troop doctrine even if you chose not to use it.

3 plasma guns and 1 plasma pistol are standard. drop in and destroy terminator squads,hive tyrants,carnifexs.. anything with an ap2.. all for the bargain price of 85 points.

also, always throw seperate colored dice for each plasma gun. in case the same guys overheats 2 times. ive seen newbie's throw all 7 dice and remove all their plasma guns because they rolled 4 overheats.

"I do put EA on my Chimerae but they don't really benefit from it. There are two main reasons to take Chimerae: as an added gun platform - in which case it should rarely if ever move; or as a last turn objective-grabber - a task to which they are not well-suited."

Not well-suited as in being a dedicated transport and unable to hold objectives?

As a gun (Multilaser/HB) platform the Chimera can move fine since all but one weapon is defensive.

I don't recommend them as a pillbox for troops since being open-topped makes them far too vulnerable to enemy fire.

Ok, just double checking, does it make sense to give a 45pt command squad light infantry so you can throw them out in a 12" line in order to push infiltrating chaos and other forces back? Or would it be better to give them a plasmagun?

Are rough riders best in a unit of 6 or 8 (or it doesn't really matter)?

"I'd disagree with these. There are quite a few instances where Stormtroopers are woth taking. - Deep Striking is a good example. Stormtroopers are twice as survivable as Vets against basic infantry weapons. They're not quite as optimal a choice as the Vets, but they can be a very effective element of an IG army."

Since when did being able to better survive basic weapons mean anything to a sucide unit? The simple fact is for 75 points you can get 5 Stormies w/2 BS4 Meltas who will die the turn after they land or for 75 points you can get 5 H-Vets w/3 BS4 Meltas who will die the turn after they land.

BYE

for clairification, the 3rd Commandment is in reference to per sqd. I certainly agree that the use of multiple Vet sqds is an option. I'll adjust the commandment to better reflect this.

RR's are best in...cough...5? I know the whole thing about 6 over 5 and what not, it's just that once they are done with their lances, they don't do much else. This is simply based on my limited XP. 6 wouldn't be terrible, but 8 is over the top IMO.

ST's. We could argue for/ against all day. They are better than a Guardsman, vet or cherry, due to their sv. That being said, they are are 10 pts each as opposed to 6 or 8. But Flagg, you say, for 2 pts more than a vet, I get a better save and better gat. Your enemy will also shoot more at it IOT reduce them because they are so much better than regular guard. I think we can agree that the Vets are Kamikazes anyway so...

One tactic I have been thinking of is using a squad or 2 Inq St's in rhinos and using the rhinos as sacrificial wheeled cover. The intent being that they move to block off an avenue of approach or move up to block a firing lane. Granted it's giving up 100 pts of army potential, but since I've got the models it MIGHT not be a bad idea.

I think that the original commandments are great, and while many of the latter pearls are fine advice, they lack the universal appeal that such a proclamation requires. Unless I'm mistaken, the goal of this is to provide basic advice that is 99% agreed upon by all IG vets. the later contributions, especially about fiddly armory requirements or elites, are more arguable.

What makes more sense is to have two documents: one a list of ironclad "rules", the other full of maxims ala the Tactica Imperialis, which can be interpreted in many different ways. for example:

() Demolishers should be equipt with all heavy bolters to take advantage of the mobility that all defensive weapons allows.

() Demolishers should be equpit with las/plas to provide long range anti-tank and anti-meq fire power while standing still.

Two true statements, that illustrate the different reasons behind the two most commonly accepted loadouts. Even if one is generally more accepted then the other, the fact is that either option is better then lascannon/heavy flamers, for example.

other forums try to accumulate wisdom in these long, laborious threads that seem to include more opinion then actual advice. If the IG players really want to craft a sort of "yardstick" for noobs, then I suggest we select a few vets to collect and edit advice, and then link to it somewhere. just my two cents.

Hmm, anyway we could get something stickied and locked except for 1 person to add to?

Soemthing like a revision of the original to bring it up to specs of the discussion. Stickied to the top, with someone with proven IG tactical knowledgeas the only person able to post on it?

I see what you mean by keeping the discussion from cluttering the intent. Something to think about...

"Unless I'm mistaken, the goal of this is to provide basic advice that is 99% agreed upon by all IG vets. the later contributions, especially about fiddly armory requirements or elites, are more arguable."

I agree. I'd also point out that there is a different between competitive lists and lists with every selection optimized to a razor edge.

A list can take a few sub-optimal units (Stormtroopers, and Sentinels spring to mind) and still be quite powerful, effective and able to win most of it's games.

I think the objective should largely be to point out the truly egregious wastes of points and most common mistakes. Most players want to be able to win or at least put up a good showing in most of their games. Not every player needs to design their list so they turn heads and crush egos at a GT.

@Flagg: Grenadiers isn't entirely pointless. It does let you spend 100 points on troops if you're building a very flukey army, or can provide a decent pushback unit if you're not running heavy support in some situation where allies are not allowed.

@Stu-Rat: Individual squads actually DO get to drop. I used to think the exact same way as you, but apparently there's some FAQ out there. Still, why pay 40 points for a single melta when you can quadruple the shooty for double the price? I have heard remnants are pretty good for cluttering an opponent's targetting decisions with lots of small, expendable units on whom a full squad's shooting is likely to be overkill.

I agree, It's not entirely pointless. When it comes to building flukey armies, well, I guess people shouldn't worry too much about 1-10 anyway, afterall, it is just a fluke. I do feel that there are better ways to spend those 100 points. Another line squad with a special/heavy mix. If an ST and a guardsman were to walk a runway, we'd all probably ooh and ahh the ST. On the other hand, when you lose a ST squad, you'll stare at them like the camera did with the smoked ewoks in Jedi. Lose an Infantry sqd and you'll be more like the camera when the Death Star blew and 1K's of lost there lives...oh well.

What are the best configs for Chimera? I plan to run 3 AF sqds... Wondering if I should bother with the smoke/ armor and if I should put a pintle weapon on or not... Let the discussion begin.

@Stu-Rat: Individual squads actually DO get to drop. I used to think the exact same way as you, but apparently there's some FAQ out there.
No, they don't. The FAQ refers to the Light Infantry doctrine and not at all to the Drop Troops doctrine. You have to drop the entire platoon at once unfortunately.

I love the criticism I got for apparently saying that you should never take the Las/Plas combo on the Demolisher, which I didn't. Still, there you go, people don't read before replyiing.

Hmm, anyway we could get something stickied and locked except for 1 person to add to?

Soemthing like a revision of the original to bring it up to specs of the discussion. Stickied to the top, with someone with proven IG tactical knowledgeas the only person able to post on it?

I see what you mean by keeping the discussion from cluttering the intent. Something to think about...

No offense, but you'll need to put together a bit more coherent and explorative on the subject before I'd consider pinning this post.

Chimeras...I run mine Multi Laser/Hull Heavy Bolter/Heavy Stubber with my guard army.

@ Flagg07: Hmm, anyway we could get something stickied and locked except for 1 person to add to?

Soemthing like a revision of the original to bring it up to specs of the discussion. Stickied to the top, with someone with proven IG tactical knowledgeas the only person able to post on it?

I see what you mean by keeping the discussion from cluttering the intent. Something to think about...

@ Yakface: No offense, but you'll need to put together a bit more coherent and explorative on the subject before I'd consider pinning this post.

None taken.

You'll notice I said a revision

I don't see how anything in the first 10 is incoherent. It's pretty straight forward. I guess you mean to flesh them out some? That could be done, no problem.

A prologue or something would definitely help it though.

So the answer is yes, with the proper upgrade, it could be stickied. Thanks for answering the question.

Yep. It's pretty funny that my statement about how a post would (essentially) need to be more clear was a complete jumble of the english language.


You got my point though. If someone wants to write up a very nice Imperial Guard tactica including the "commandments" of building a list, I would certainly sticky it if I felt it was well written and worthy. Alternatively, if that person was a DCM, they could also publish it as an "article" on Dakka instead.

Posted By Polonius on 02/27/2006 1:42 PM
wight-widow: Keep in mind that the LD bonus of COD only applies to that squad for morale and pinning tests, it's not a general +1 to LD.  This means that an officer with COD can't use that bonus for his Leadership special rule.  The whole rule is a bit vague, but they've FAQ'd it pretty well by now.

 

Darn. Missed that FAQ - in the Codex it just says the unit get +1 to it's OWN leadership. The way the Officer exemption is worded seems to me like they mean an Infantry squad in COD within 12" of an Officer in a squad in COD doesn't get LD10.

edit - I can't find it here http://us.games-workshop.com/games/40k/imperialguard/gaming/FAQ/assets/imperial_guard_faq_v4-0.pdf - do you have a link?

I actually think Stormtroopers are great for lists where you want several drop squads, but don't want to or can't spare two doctrines for drop vets, and need all your command squads for Leadership.

Posted By Stu-Rat on 03/01/2006 8:39 PM
@Stu-Rat: Individual squads actually DO get to drop. I used to think the exact same way as you, but apparently there's some FAQ out there.
No, they don't. The FAQ refers to the Light Infantry doctrine and not at all to the Drop Troops doctrine. You have to drop the entire platoon at once unfortunately.

I love the criticism I got for apparently saying that you should never take the Las/Plas combo on the Demolisher, which I didn't. Still, there you go, people don't read before replyiing.

 

Yep, that's what the rules in print would lead us to believe...I'm held the "whole platoon drops" point of view exactly for the reasons you do - because that's what it says in the rules for reserves. I'm 99% sure it was a couple of people on this forum who convinced me it was otherwise.

 

edit - right, I'm calling direct services! (ignores rumble of mockery)

Posted By wight_widow on 03/02/2006 7:10 AM
Yep, that's what the rules in print would lead us to believe...I'm held the "whole platoon drops" point of view exactly for the reasons you do - because that's what it says in the rules for reserves. I'm 99% sure it was a couple of people on this forum who convinced me it was otherwise.

Well, my thought on this is that you apply all doctrines to the individual squads, so you can have a platoon with only one drop squad... forcing you to drop it seperately from the units which can't drop.

I'm just curious about one thing: The debate about what weapons are worth it or not have been argued between grenade launcher and plasma gun, though there's another one I'm rather curious about. What about the best way to use Sniper rifles? One woul think they would be pretty good in a static squad or so to widdle down even the toughest infantry and keep them from charging up towards you, and can concentrate fire upon them.

Just wondering what everybody thought about them.

Sniper Rifles are rather useless.

1. AP - they can't hurt TMC's, or MEQ's very effectively. The shots mostly bounce off, so you need a prohibitative number of them to do much good.

2. Pinning - Most armies (Marines, Chaos, etc.) are Ld 9 or 10 minimum and are often Fearless. Pinning very rarely comes into play unless you play against Tau and Eldar a lot.


They're not effective in a generalized list - which needs the points to deal with Tyranids, MEQs and other opponents against whom Sniper Rifles are largely ineffective.

Snipers are useful against Big Targets with not-great armor. Wraithlords, C'Tan, and Greater Demons are the best examples.

If you want snipers, though, Ratlings are much better (read: cost-effective) than special weapons squads.

You got my point though. If someone wants to write up a very nice Imperial Guard tactica including the "commandments" of building a list, I would certainly sticky it if I felt it was well written and worthy. Alternatively, if that person was a DCM, they could also publish it as an "article" on Dakka instead.

Sigh, I have such a document. It's about 20 pages long in word and at best half finished.

The IG are a huge subject to tackle in any depth.

Same here

I got a page into my tactica before realizing there are IG players here much more experienced than I am. Still, I'd love to see whatever you come up with.

While 30 page tacticas have their place a 1 pager helping new players to get started, maybe supplimented by numbers and notes is desperately needed.

i like these 10 commandments.

Posted By Asmodai on 03/03/2006 1:51 PM
Sniper Rifles are rather useless.

1. AP - they can't hurt TMC's, or MEQ's very effectively. The shots mostly bounce off, so you need a prohibitative number of them to do much good.

2. Pinning - Most armies (Marines, Chaos, etc.) are Ld 9 or 10 minimum and are often Fearless. Pinning very rarely comes into play unless you play against Tau and Eldar a lot.


They're not effective in a generalized list - which needs the points to deal with Tyranids, MEQs and other opponents against whom Sniper Rifles are largely ineffective.

I got into a stupid argument over this that resulted in my ability to upload avatars being frozen, but I'll reiterate my side of the story. Internet-style TMCs typically have a 3+ save, and will likely continue to until plasma has AP3. IMHO sniper rifles are decent against all monstrous creatures. Internet TMCs, Greater Daemons, Squiggoths, C'tan, Avatars, and Wraithlords all pay for their high toughness, which the sniper rifle negates. I'll agree that they suxor (sic) against everything else - way too many points for a 36" range boltgun versus MEQs. The minimum they will do is force your Tyranid opponent to waste point upgrading his Heavy Support to 2+ save, but then you'll still be able to target his elites, who will forfeit much offensive capability to take the upgrade. (two rending claws...scary!...oh, wait, this squad has a power fist...)

edit - best snipers: Allied Kroot. Three points less than a Ratling for feildcraft - though they'll use up a precious heavy support slot. Almost always worth it in an infantry-focussed army.

edit - As for grenade launchers, the debate boils down to the question, "can and should IG infantry ever move?" If the squad has a heavy weapon, that grenade launcher is a waste. Basically they're useful only in flukey lists or in flukey environments, which isn't to say they're always bad, just that if you face MEQs and your squad stands still, you'll wish it was a plasma gun.

Honestly at this point I don't think my IG tactica will get finished.

I might open it up to Dakka and see if there's interest in contributing to it - I'll take more of an editor position and just consolidate other people's posts into a single document. Anyone feel like playing around with such a project?

Posted By Jeff on 03/06/2006 6:13 PM
Honestly at this point I don't think my IG tactica will get finished.

I might open it up to Dakka and see if there's interest in contributing to it - I'll take more of an editor position and just consolidate other people's posts into a single document. Anyone feel like playing around with such a project?

 

Maybe one or two of the real vets (i.e. not suckers like me) should do a brief review of the codex as a whole.  Start with a little foreword, the commandments, and then little blurbs on each unit and the doctrines and why the rock or or suck. 

Wow, major bump there... it's been, what, over a month since the last post?

Crap, I didn't realize.  Sorry.

I've got a partly written tactica. It's at around 30,000 words and only just up to 'Troops'. I doubt everyone would want to read through that...

BYE

I'd read it. Feel free to pm if you want.

I'll give it a read.

I wonder how many partially written IG tacticas there are out there.

Though I'm pretty much a n00b when it comes to IG, I'd definitely give it a good read, especially since I'm planning to throw together a small IG army over summer. It may not be a competitive list in the end, but it'll be fun.

CK

"I doubt everyone would want to read through that..."

you assume wrong! i'd love to read it!

I think posting a commandments style IG primer would be very useful on Dakka.  IG is not an easy army to play in v4, and there are as many or more mistakes possible with it as with Eldar.  Also, an all mortar army can be suprisingly effective.  You can pack a LOT of mortars into 1850, and mortar HW squads actually work.  That having been said, suprisingly effective means better than totally sucking.  When I fielded it I expected to get destroyed.

Here's a starting point, I'd like feedback.  If it looks good enough for a stickie, I'll repost in a clean thread.

#1 Thou shalt not waste the Emperor?s credits. Remember that thou are commanding the most fragile basic unit in the game.

Guard are T3/5+, and at the end of the day you will remain at best a T3/4+ army. This means that a 4 Heavy Bolter Devastator squad will essentially annihilate any unit it can draw LOS to. Don?t take any upgrade that you aren?t prepared to watch evaporate as soon as your opponent picks up the dice for his shooting phase. The best course of action is to individually justify every single item taken from the armory.

#2 Thou shalt not forget the purpose of thine units. Officers lead, Guardsmen die.

Your officer?s leadership bubble is critical to dealing with the low average IG leadership. Your opponent knows this as well as you do and as such command squads are #2 on their infantry target list, right behind heavy weapons squads. Hide them, and know that if your opponent can LOS/Range them they will die. Some will even send suicide units to kill that HQ and its LD10 bubble. This also means that upgrades here are very often wasted, as Command Squads are the most fragile unit in the army. They are still critical, as without that leadership bubble IG are even easier to kill than normal.

#3 Thou shalt not loose thine understanding of the Logic of Numbers. Two is more than twice as good as one, four more than twice as good as two.

Also known as ?Everything counts in large amounts? and ?Quantity has a quality all its own.? First, the more of a unit you have the more likely your opponent won?t have enough guns to deal with it all. 3 Russ hulls and 5 chimera hulls, or 100% infantry, is much more dangerous than a Russ, 2 chimera hulls, and a bunch of infantry. Second, identical units matter. If you have a bunch of units that are functionally similar yet each is upgraded slightly, your opponent will just shoot the most expensive one first and run down the list.

#4 Thou shalt not take special weapons other than plasma.

It?s difficult to go wrong with a plasma gun. Suicide deepstrikers can get some use from meltaguns, and a handful of grenade launchers or flamers in an otherwise template-less army can force hordes to spread out a bit, but in the end plasma kills everything.

#5 Thou shalt not forget that melee combat is a cancer. Excise it.

IG armies in general fall to CC, killing units and closing fire lanes. Rough Riders aren?t a bad countercharge unit, and most things can be killed by begin dogpiled by line squads, but always remember that you want to shoot as much as possible. Understand where you will be attacked in CC, and if you should deal with it by way of countercharge or opening the gap.

#6 Thou shalt not field heavy weapons squads.

Any competent opponent will almost uniformly shoot them first, and continue shooting them until dead. Too many points and too much firepower on too few wounds. If you must field them, stick to HB only squads, and take provisions to block LOS with vehicles and terrain. And be prepared to watch them die without doing anything.

#7 Thou shalt not forget that thine strength lies in the platoon and armor plate.

Anything that isn?t a line squad, command squad, or a vehicle is probably going to be a waste of points without a clear and easy to implement plan for using them. This specifically includes all elites choices, Rough Riders, Sentinels, and Advisors. This is not to say that you can?t come up with a plan that makes them good, just that taking them without such a plan is a waste. Furthermore, most of those choices are simply innately useless or so stupidly hard to use that it isn?t worth it.

#8 Thou shalt not forget that blast templates are mostly useless, and that guardsmen are BS3.

Missile Launchers are bad. Grenade Launchers are bad. Plasma Cannons are bad. Multimeltas are simply horrible. Flamers are highly situational.  You need every hit to count against armor, and every shot you can get for everything else. This means Heavy Bolters for killing hordes, Lascannons for killing power armor and vehicles, a few autocannons for killing armor 12 skimmers.

#9 Thou shalt not forget that battlecannons cannot kill vehicles.

Read the rules. Chances are good that you will scatter off anything but the largest vehicles, and the ones you can depend on hitting are all AV14 and thus nearly immune. At best you are usually looking at less than a 50% hit rate on Rhino sized targets, and even worse on walkers, trucks, and land speeders.

#10 Thou shalt not take doctrines that cost points.

Along the same lines as #7, any doctrine that isn?t free is very likely to be a waste of points unless you have a clear and easy to implement plan for using your new abilities. Also like #7, most doctrines are simply a total waste of time.

You know what I like most about Guard? The fact that every one of these 10 commandments can be shown as false. There is nothing true 100% of the time.


#1 Thou shalt not waste the Emperor?s credits. Remember that thou are commanding the most fragile basic unit in the game.

Except that Camoline, and vet sgts can make for some BA line squads, also the abhuman doctrines... All cost points

#2 Thou shalt not forget the purpose of thine units. Officers lead, Guardsmen die.

Except of suicide command squads backed by COD vet sgt squads, in that case, guardsmen lean and officers die.

#3 Thou shalt not loose thine understanding of the Logic of Numbers. Two is more than twice as good as one, four more than twice as good as two.

except for the case of rough riders.... You need one squad.... more is overkill

#4 Thou shalt not take special weapons other than plasma.

Love some plasma but as mentioned meltas in suicide squads are great

#5 Thou shalt not forget that melee combat is a cancer. Excise it.
Melee happens and must be planned for. Some times it is better to feed something one squad at a time than to let it have free reign of your squads


#6 Thou shalt not field heavy weapons squads.
Please see the 14 lascannon 1850 guard army with multiple heavy weapon squads.... You want to hear cries of cheese!


#7 Thou shalt not forget that thine strength lies in the platoon and armor plate.

HEARASY!! Rough Riders are one of the best guard units in the game... Sentinals in a drop army are great as well

#8 Thou shalt not forget that blast templates are mostly useless, and that guardsmen are BS3.

Ok I agree with you here!

#9 Thou shalt not forget that battlecannons cannot kill vehicles.

And here.... However demolisher cannons do kill monoliths quite well.

#10 Thou shalt not take doctrines that cost points.
Please see 1


Do not get me wrong, I think that the 10 listed commandments are generally good advice. But there are always exceptions in the guard army.

foil: The purpose of commandments is to provide guidelines. All of the commandments mentioned are true. Are there exceptions? Yes. Should they even be mentioned to well-intentioned but otherwise clueless potential guard players? No.

You are wrong there Jeff. These are exactly the people that need the mentions. Or else you see an upset newbie with a drop troop army that has no improved comms, or a SAFH army with no counter assualt.

You're right, he is wrong about rough riders. But other than that?

My point is that newbie guard players shouldn't be doing drop troops, or a cameleoline infiltrating army, or anything of the sort. Yes they're playable and even arguably better than the vanilla guard list - but they're also going to require a higher degree of expertise with the guard. A new guard player is going to be better off mastering the basics of the Imperial Guard (have lots of everything, recognize that individual guardsmen are all but useless) before trying out some of the fancier things. Learn to walk before you run etc etc.

My whole point, is that like it or not winning games encourages new players. Guard start off with a handicap and these people should get started with as lean and mean an army as possible. To put a viable IG army togther costs what? 5-6 hundred bucks? Plus countless hours painting? That is a huge investement for "learning the ropes"

Posted By foil7102 on 04/18/2006 1:27 PM
You know what I like most about Guard? The fact that every one of these 10 commandments can be shown as false. There is nothing true 100% of the time.


#1 Thou shalt not waste the Emperor?s credits. Remember that thou are commanding the most fragile basic unit in the game.

Except that Camoline, and vet sgts can make for some BA line squads, also the abhuman doctrines... All cost points

 

Camoline is expensive, and isn't that hard to deal with.  It makes you tougher, true, but is it worth the cost?  You can't pack the entire army into cover all the time and you can't only upgrade certain units, so units outside cover will be killed first.  It also won't save you from CC.  It is useful? Yes, but if you know how to use it you aren't who this document is intended for.  Same with abhumans.  However, this is intended more for armory choices and some of the squad upgrades than doctrines.  I have seen a lot of new players field the Command HQ of DOOOOM and watch it get blown away, and this is intended to prevent that shock until the player understands the game more. 

#2 Thou shalt not forget the purpose of thine units. Officers lead, Guardsmen die.

Except of suicide command squads backed by COD vet sgt squads, in that case, guardsmen lean and officers die.

 

Suicide squads die.  And with guardsmen, they have this ugly tendancy to die while accomplishing little.  Meanwhile, you are very template vulnerable and spending 6 points a squad instead of keeping units you have to take anyway alive in hiding. 

#3 Thou shalt not loose thine understanding of the Logic of Numbers. Two is more than twice as good as one, four more than twice as good as two.

except for the case of rough riders.... You need one squad.... more is overkill

 

And if they get shot?  A single land speeder can gut a mid sized RR squad, and considering the RR cost it isn't an entirely bad idea for the SM player. 

#4 Thou shalt not take special weapons other than plasma.

Love some plasma but as mentioned meltas in suicide squads are great

 

There is little melta can accomplish that plasma can't.  The primary advantage is killing Wraithlords, Carnifexes, and instakilling pesky marine characters.  The secondary advantage is manageing to land in the 6inch sweet spot for the melta bonus.  I prefer twice the shots at Str7.  The exception is, of course, land raiders.  Once again, if you are using sucicide drop troop vet squads, you are likely beyond the scope of this post.

#5 Thou shalt not forget that melee combat is a cancer. Excise it.
Melee happens and must be planned for. Some times it is better to feed something one squad at a time than to let it have free reign of your squads

Where did I say it would never happen?  Did I ever imply that?  I said, have a plan to deal with it because it can easily make you lose.

#6 Thou shalt not field heavy weapons squads.
Please see the 14 lascannon 1850 guard army with multiple heavy weapon squads.... You want to hear cries of cheese!

Until they all evaporate under heavy bolter fire on turn 1.  It's hard to set up/screen HW squads, and they are target #1 for a competent opponent.  I've fielded it, and watched it get taken apart by a competent opponent who was tougher and semi-mobile.  He obliterated a sizeable % of my HW squads in his first shooting phase and it was a long slide down from there.  Making them work is hard because they are such good targets.

#7 Thou shalt not forget that thine strength lies in the platoon and armor plate.

HEARASY!! Rough Riders are one of the best guard units in the game... Sentinals in a drop army are great as well

 

Sentinels get one shot.  RR's are a good CC unit ... by guards standards.  When fielded against an opponent who knows what they can do and is threatened by that, they tend to get shot and die.  Did you actually read the notes here, where I said 'you need a plan'?  And it's heresy. 

#8 Thou shalt not forget that blast templates are mostly useless, and that guardsmen are BS3.

Ok I agree with you here!

#9 Thou shalt not forget that battlecannons cannot kill vehicles.

And here.... However demolisher cannons do kill monoliths quite well.

 

What part of battlecannon did you read as demolisher cannon?

#10 Thou shalt not take doctrines that cost points.
Please see 1

 

See comment for #1.


Do not get me wrong, I think that the 10 listed commandments are generally good advice. But there are always exceptions in the guard army.

Perhaps I should have put in a bit more explanation.  The commandments themselves are meant for a new player.  Even if you don't understand anything about the game, you can only go so far wrong during army construction if you follow them.  The italics notes are for people a bit farther along, to explain some basics as to how and why the commandments work.  Take #7.  For somebody who just finished assembling or is planning future purchases, just follow it.  After each game, examine the other choices and try to create a plan on how any particular choice might have been useful.  For RRs, it might be as simple as ' if I had a RR unit that was still alive when the Assault Marines hit, I might have won.  So next time, I'll hide a RR unit behind some trees and try to keep the speeders away from them.'  That's a concrete and easy to impliment plan, as talked about the in notes.  With something like Ogryn or a Seer, tyring to create a workable plan is a lot harder, which will discourage you from fielding them if you follow the note. 

Sigh, sorry about that formatting.  I was not expecting it to look like that.  My replies are in italics.

Sigh..... Please see my last note Grog...

"Do not get me wrong, I think that the 10 listed commandments are generally good advice. But there are always exceptions in the guard army."

On a side note, I disagree with a fair number of your "commandments" Even for a newbie... And an even larger portion of your advice is.....

1)Suicide squads always make their points back unless destroyed by the scatter die.... If they did not, you were using them incorrectly.
2)Rough Riders when used correctly are the best value point for point in the game... They should not be overlooked.
3)Heavy weapon Teams have their place in the army. ESPECIALLY when taken with the HQ. 48 inch range guns should never be in heavy bolter range. The only way they should be targeted during the first two turns is if you are not using them correctly.

That is just off of the top of my head, from what you have posted so far...

"except for the case of rough riders.... You need one squad.... more is overkill

And if they get shot? A single land speeder can gut a mid sized RR squad, and considering the RR cost it isn't an entirely bad idea for the SM player. "

I agree with foil on this one. i don't think your example would play out that easily. if you're hiding them correctly,
i think you'd have a greater chance of taking out his speeder first.

Anyone know what Dakka's character limit is? In posts that is.

BYE

#4 Thou shalt not take special weapons other than plasma.

Love some plasma but as mentioned meltas in suicide squads are great

***a four flamer JSO unit is excellent for the scraps of marines that eventually WILL get through your firing lanes. It is a perfection of the Quantity is quality theory. 

#5 Thou shalt not forget that melee combat is a cancer. Excise it.
Melee happens and must be planned for. Some times it is better to feed something one squad at a time than to let it have free reign of your squads

****Agreed, feeding cheap troop squads to expensive enemy units is a time honored tradition in the guard. Who do you think we are-Tau

Anyone know what Dakka's character limit is? In posts that is.

Nope. You can always brake it up into multiple chunks and post it seperately if you have to.

I think this thread needs a "We'll Be Back" roll!

Hmm, well a good place to start would be devising a "take all comers" list for 1500 points. That way the nublings won't be swamped and they can actually have the models within a forseeable amount of time.

yeh, lets get this thread goin

i recently started guard after i dont know what reason, i just like em, but my knowledge only goes so far

so for all those experienced generals out there, please feel free to post or pm me any tactica, like anything, i even have trouble choosing weapon layouts for my troops that i am happy with (cant decide autocannons or Hbs hehe) or post links to good tactica, it will benefit everyone...

a little know didnt hurt no-one

thanks

I had a tactica for HQ choices up on 40k online (it's a little dated, but still pretty aplicable), but the main site is apaprently down.

General IG advice is hard, simply because there are so many different builds (SAFH, all infantry, mech, Drop troops, grenadiers, infiltrating, etc). Assuming you want to build a generic IG army (lots of dudes and lots of tanks) here are a few pointers:

Keep your command HQ cheap: you want LD9 and a re-roll, anything else is a waste

50% of your specials should be plasmas at a low point. 75% is better.

Remember that against their main targets, Lascannons are twice to six times as good as a missile launcher for only 10 pts more.

Autcannons are great against light vehicles, but not very good against anything else.

Plasma goes good with every heavy weapon. Grenade launchers are inferior 99% of the time. If you're a noob, trust me, you're not in the 1% where Grenade Launchers are awesome.

Suicide drop squads (veterans, command sections, remnents, and special weapon squads) are cheap and awesome.

Sentinels aren't as good as they look, and they don't look that good.

Any time you want to take one vehicle at an AV level (either AV14 or 12), take 3. One LRBT or hellhound is going to get rocked. three are a problem for your opponent.

Good squad load outs: las/plas, heavy bolter/Flamer. Useful squads in moderation: AC/plas, Missile/Plas. Bad combinations: anything with mortars, grenade launchers, or meltas.

If you want countercharge, take rough riders.

Polonius wrote:Good squad load outs: las/plas, heavy bolter/Flamer. Useful squads in moderation: AC/plas, Missile/Plas. Bad combinations: anything with mortars, grenade launchers, or meltas.

Just to clarify as I think I know what you mean, but want to make sure that others know, too - Meltas in combination with anything other than more meltas are bad. But massed (like 2-4) meltas in suicide squads are good.

that's exactly correct. I meant meltas in standard squads are generally bad. Meltas in command squads, veterans, remnants, etc. are all better in bulk.

I've got a huge tactica that I wrote after the current Guard Codex came out, but it's before 4th Ed hit, so some of it is out of date.

BYE

I recently had a battle with my loaded out HQ section, power weapons, plasma weapons, and a Commissar with a Powerfist (simply because I needed the extra Commissar and the only one I had was equiped with a Powerfist). I used them to charge into an assault that I initiated with two standard squads, and they all did rather well. The Power Weapons came in handy dealing with Space Marine level armor. I've just recently started trying to assault with my IG and so far they're not terrible, you just need lots of hits, but I think my opponent's dice are loaded. He never fails his armor saves. Litterally, he never fails his armor saves, even if I hit and wound with 10-15 lasgun rounds, he saves them all. Next time I encounter that kid I'm going to keep a sharp eye on his dice.

Massive pimped out Guard CHQ's do do well in HTH combat... but they're ludicrously expensive and go against everything you should be doing.

I had a squad such as this wipe out a squad of Striking Scoprs before the Scorps could even swing. It was fantastic. Power Weapons, Power Fists, Eviscerators, Force Weapons - tore 'em to shreds I did.

The unit was also 300 points, and involved me taking three different Doctrines just to boost them (Priests, Sanctioned Psykers and Xenos Hunters).

Complete and utter waste.

As I have said in numerous threads, CHQs cost 81 points, no more, no less (unless you're giving them Cameleoline and/or Light Infantry). They hide, they provide Ld9 + Re-Roll Leadership, and that's it.

Gurad don't assault. They counter-assault, and that's a huge difference.

BYE

so far i agree with what has been said here, especially the whole close combat thing though im not too keen on rough riders.

due to the fact i usually play only smaller games (i.e 750-1250) yeah wierd points values but me and mate are bad at organising and a few guys dont have very big armies so sticking to these commandments is fairly hard. Especially the whole tank idea, like no less than 3 im gathering so i guess tips with this stuff in mind would help more. I very oftenly play against orks and chaos, sometimes daemonhunters.

also for HBMC, id be happy to read your tactica and anybody elses for that matter ( HBMC just mentioned he had one) so yeh, you can pm me if you want or just post it, but like you said it might be a bit out dated.

anyways, thanks to the people helping out

What I'd REALLY like to see is a lot of this advice concatenated into the Articles section. A large, main Imperial Guard Tactica would be good alongside a few smaller (or larger!) tacticas by individual posters.

Keeps away from Thread Necromancy this way.

Flagg07 wrote:2) Thou Shalt not mix weapons in Heavy Weapon Squads.

I like!!
However, I will slightly disagree with this one. The one exception, Fire Support squads. A mix of two Heavy bolters and one autocannon works quite well, IMO. You lose one shot but gain slightly better anti-armor capability. Maybe it's just a personal quirk but I like it.

don_mondo wrote:

Flagg07 wrote:2) Thou Shalt not mix weapons in Heavy Weapon Squads.

I like!!
However, I will slightly disagree with this one. The one exception, Fire Support squads. A mix of two Heavy bolters and one autocannon works quite well, IMO. You lose one shot but gain slightly better anti-armor capability. Maybe it's just a personal quirk but I like it.

The key with these "commandments" is that any of them can be broken and be a part of a good or even great IG army. No two IG players build identical armies or even squads (I think I'm the only player to use Missile Launchers and two plasma guns in command squads), so it's important to make sure people know that nothing is written in stone.

don_mondo, why would you not just pay for 3 ACs instead? It'd only be another 10 pts on top of your mixed squad, and it would mean you don't waste 2/3 of those heavy weapons should you need to actually fire at an AV12 vehicle. The loss of shots is almost made up for by the added point of S; against T4, you inflict 2.5 wounds instead of the 3 you would inflict with 3 HBs.

If you mix ACs and HBs, two guns designed for completely different things, you'll be wasting fire every turn.

Don't do it.

BYE

agreed with HBMC, the mixing of heavy weapons always works against the player as usually they are all designed for different battlefield roles. have all HB's for anti infantry, all AC's for light tanks and heavy infantry, and lascannons for all tanks in general.

funny enough though i do use missile launchers instead of lascannons and i know admitting this here is gonna cause a ruckus, but it's just so i can have more, and for modeling purposes.

Quick note: ACs are not any better than HBs against "heavy infantry."

fair enough, they really don't help against MEQ's

All three guns have their roles - LCs, ACs and HBs - and it's the reason I refer to them as the 'Holy Trinity' of Guard weapons.

Then you have the Disciples of the Holy Trinity:

Plasma Gun
Flamer
Meltagun
Multi-Laser
Battlecannon
Demolisher Cannon
Inferno Cannon
Earthshaker Cannon
Hunting Lance

Beyond that you don't need much else.

BYE

Bastirous666 wrote:fair enough, they really don't help against MEQ's

Which is what Battle Cannons are for.

MEQ work is done by Plasma Guns, Battle Cannons and things similar to those two. You can also do anti-MEQ work at a pinch with high strength high rate of fire weapons like Multi-Lasers, mainly because they wound on a 2+, so if you score enough wounds they're going to start failing saves eventually. Using Missile Launchers for MEQ work is a waste, as an ML will kill, at maximum, 3 marines a game. I'd rather, for the same points, take an Autocannon and get (statistically speaking) 1 hit every turn single with it.

Really when it comes down to it your weapon choices for Guard have to do one of two things:

1. Off-set the poor 50/50 nature of Ballistic Skill 3.
- OR -
2. Hit with so much force that they can reliably kill their target despite missing half the time.

Heavy Bolters and Autocannons fall into the first category along with Multi-Lasers and Ordnance weapons. Lascannons and Plasma Guns fall into the latter category along with Meltaguns and Hunting Lances. Missile Launchers, Grenade Launchers and Mortars fall into neither of these two categories, and as such serve no purpose in a Guard army.

EXECPT, and I'll always add this as a disclaimer, if your local metagame has you playing troop-heavy Marine players and lots of Necron armies, and by that I mean you will face these two types of army almost exclusivley, then go and add ML's to every damned squad (paired with Plasma Guns). And I don't just mean 'If you face lots of Marine players' - as we all face that. I mean if you face Marine/Chaos players who bring very few vehicles, if any, and fill the table with T4 Sv3+ types (like Necrons do). Then, and only then, does the ML come into its own.

BYE

very nicely said HBMC, i like whatever you need to say...its completely relevant

Hmm, whats better, more boyz or more toyz in a Gaurd army? Take the maximum of 360 squads but don't kit them out with anything or only take rougly 100+ and give them plasma of HW support?

Are you joking, Ratbarf? The only function of bodies is to keep heavies and specials in the game.

Exactly. If your squads don't have a heavy and special, then it's a waste of a squad.

BYE

H.B.M.C. wrote:Exactly. If your squads don't have a heavy and special, then it's a waste of a squad.

BYE

If there were one ironclad rule for IG building, it would be this one.

Heh, I don't play guard only against them. And 360 men would have that tyranid quality of "How am I going to kill all that...)

Well if it's just guys with Lasguns, you haven't got anything to worry about as they can't kill you either.

BYE

Just kind of wondering.. when running your somewhat standard hybrid armour/infantry list, how do you deal with mobility issues? My list has 2 platoons of 4 squads each, then 5 tanks.

I have room to take the drop troops doctrine if needed.

That's just it. Drop Troops is there to give you mobility if you can't use your tanks for it.

Sentinels work at a pinch as well.

BYE

Polonius wrote:

H.B.M.C. wrote:Exactly. If your squads don't have a heavy and special, then it's a waste of a squad.

BYE

If there were one ironclad rule for IG building, it would be this one.

I would not even class that asa solid rule. even when we are talking only about ordinary troops squads.

If points are tight you can have squads with a lascannon and no special weapon. Good if you know the enemy likes heavy tanks, if you know your squad is going to be shoot Av14 all day, it doesnt need a plasma gun.

Remnant squads are worthwhile, six men and a flamer/melta gun. throw them forward for suicide shooting or as a speed brake on enemy assault units.

Remnant units are not points-efficient. Command Sections and Veterans are always a better choice.

BYE

For the bulk squads of my army should I go AC/PG or HB/PG? Is the AutoCannon worth the extra points?

Yes. In every way yes.

It is the single most consistant weapon you can get for the Guard. It hits 50% of the time, meaning that with two shots a turn you'll hit every turn. It is better at killing AV10, AV11 and AV12 vehicles than the Missile Launcher, and equal against AV13.

It mixes with the Plasma Guns S7 as well.

Autocannon + Plasma Gun = Good
Heavy Bolter + Plasma Gun = Waste. Take HB/Flamer squads instead.

BYE

How about deep strike special weapons squads like:
2 Melta Guns
1 Demo Charge
for 75 Points total?

It seems like it would be better to take a 3 Melta Gun, 5 Man Hardened Veteran Squad for the same 75 Points but that pie plate sounds tempting.

Ideas?

Different roles.

The Special Weapon Squad is counter-charge - find a big squad of enemy Marines or Terminators and lob it at them, gut the unit, and then mop up the rest. For that job, bring Flamers not Meltaguns.

If you want Deep Striking anti-tank, then it's H-Vets all the way. 3 Plasmas or 3 Meltas.

BYE

H.B.M.C. wrote:The Special Weapon Squad is counter-charge - find a big squad of enemy Marines or Terminators and lob it at them, gut the unit, and then mop up the rest. For that job, bring Flamers not Meltaguns.

I'd disagree here. I think most of the time, the demo charge is used with drop troops. Primarily to hit marines and other hard targets (Nurgle, DC, etc). If you bring flamers, you either shoot them first and take targets away from the blast, or shoot them at the 1-2 models that survive the blast which is inefficient. I think the meltaguns (or nothing) are better buys.

Unless you're planning on this doubling as some sort of anti-horde support as well. It's not as effective against hordes, but if that's a primary concern, it might be worth bringing flamers. This makes it more of a general purpose unit, though, and the incresed cost will reflect that.

H.B.M.C. wrote:Different roles.

The Special Weapon Squad is counter-charge - find a big squad of enemy Marines or Terminators and lob it at them, gut the unit, and then mop up the rest. For that job, bring Flamers not Meltaguns.

If you want Deep Striking anti-tank, then it's H-Vets all the way. 3 Plasmas or 3 Meltas.

BYE

I agree with Grimaldi. When deepstriking Demo Charges, my squad often lands between 8-12 inches away from an opponent due to scatter. If all it has is Demo Charge+Flamer, then it gets only 6 lasgun shots (woo hoo). Even if you land ~7 inches away, those flamers aren't going to tag that many opponents. If the squad has 2 meltas, then even at 12" scatter it should get 1 (possibly 2) melta hits as well. Against heavy infantry, each of those melta hits is an almost certain kill. Also, if you scatter really badly, you might end up within 12" of an enemy vehicle where a single melta hit could easily make back the points of the squad.

I use Battle Cannons, Heavy Bolters, Inferno Cannons and lasguns for light infantry work. I want my dropping special weapons squads to be able to take out Terminators and tanks.

Every time I've dropped a flamer/DC unit, I've wished I'd put meltas in them instead. Except for the times that they land right on the enemy and die

Strangelooper wrote:I agree with Grimaldi. When deepstriking Demo Charges, my squad often lands between 8-12 inches away from an opponent due to scatter. If all it has is Demo Charge+Flamer, then it gets only 6 lasgun shots (woo hoo). Even if you land ~7 inches away, those flamers aren't going to tag that many opponents. If the squad has 2 meltas, then even at 12" scatter it should get 1 (possibly 2) melta hits as well. Against heavy infantry, each of those melta hits is an almost certain kill. Also, if you scatter really badly, you might end up within 12" of an enemy vehicle where a single melta hit could easily make back the points of the squad.

Which is why I don't deep strike them. Why would you Deep Strike a unit that has a 6" range gun?

As I said, they're counter-charge. That's what Special Weapon Squads do.

And you'll get 1 hit with the Meltaguns. Not worth 30 points.

BYE

H.B.M.C. wrote:

Which is why I don't deep strike them. Why would you Deep Strike a unit that has a 6" range gun?

As I said, they're counter-charge. That's what Special Weapon Squads do.

And you'll get 1 hit with the Meltaguns. Not worth 30 points.

BYE

Where do you hide them, such that they can get into 6" demo-charge range of an enemy that isn't already in close combat with your line squads? And if you don't hide them, why don't they get evaporated by enemy fire?

The prime hiding spots in my lines (behind a forest and/or behind a Leman Russ) are occupied by the CHQ and my roughriders. Any time that I've not dropped my special weapons squads (ie when I've rolled "alpha" for mission level), they've been primary targets for shooting. Target priority not withstanding.

Tell me your secret!

Re points: 30 points is approximately the cost of a Terminator, so I would consider that "making its points back". Any vehicle is going to be worth more than that - even tearing a main weapon off or immobilizing is worth 30 points, I would think.

I love this post. DOnt have time to elaborate more on it. I agree with about 90% of this. lol will post later.

IG Commandments, because some of our brother generals don't get it yet.

1) Thou Shalt not waste money on wargear.: Abosultely true, a commandment that is learned thru experience as nobody listens.

2) Thou Shalt not mix weapons in Heavy Weapon Squads.: True again; I don't know that anyone does this. Its just dumb to do,

3) Thou Shalt not spend more than 75 points on each Hardened Veteran Sqd. Usually true, however a plasma pistol is not too bad. 85 somtimes is ok. You mentioned this though

4) Thou Shalt use complimentary Heavy/special weapons. (Don't mix 48" and 12" range weapons within a single Infantry Squad): Nobody ever listens, Commandment 4 is also true.

5) Thou Shalt not use only 1 tank. True, except maybe a basilisk which you mentioned.

6) Thou Shalt not use mortars EVER and grenade launchers sometimes...maybe...: LOL, could not agree more.

7) Thou Shalt not forget your troopers are only BS3/ 5+sv. LMAO, yes very true

8) Thou Shalt not waste a doctrine point to change this. LMAOA, even truer

9) Thou Shalt not be cheap and attempt to do with 3 missile launchers, what should be done with 3 las-cannons: yes, ML dont kill termies, they are actually the least efficient at it.

10) Thou Shalt not post army lists with broken Commandments and ask if it's a "good list". Highly approve


LOL, almost everything in here are things that I have been saying for ages. HBMC and I seem to have similar outlooks on IG.

Also, I would say a HB, Gl and storm bolter combo (storm bolter not TOO keen on) would be better than a HB flamer squad. You do NOT want to be close enough to use the flamer. If you are you want to assault, so the HB would be useless.

Have you guys agreed on a final list yet? Would be cool to
see it up on the site.

i don't really like the idea of ground rules for all guard to use. i have seen so many variations with such diverse unit choices that i think no one option is ever best. to me this is just for those who want to do the cookie cutter IG list and have no personality

There shouldn't be ground rules on what to take (except Iron Discipline - that's mandatory), but more a list of things that you should never take, like, say:

1. 90% of the Doctrines.
2. Ratlings.
3. Sanctioned Psykers.
4. Tech-Priest Enginseers.
5. Commissars (90% of the time).
6. Storm Troopers (80% of the time Vets are better).
7. Did I mention the Doctrines?
8. Grenade Launchers. Ever. 2 points more gets you S7 AP2.
9. Missile Launchers. Ever. Unless your local meta-game has you facing hordes of Necrons and footslogging Marines endlessly.
10. Mortars. Ever.

And a few other odds and ends. Abiding by these will still allow for a variety of lists, from Armoured Company, to MechInf, to standard mixed Guard, to All-Infantry Guard.

BYE

@HBMC I agree with all but #2 i have had ratlings kill daemon princes before. Ratlings can be good if you use then correctly. Which is by NOT infiltrating them. At least not near enemy lines. They are ok. personally i stopped running them but I have been thinking of a way to put them back in.

also, what is a cookie cutter IG?

H.B.M.C. wrote:Quted for truth

There shouldn't be ground rules on what to take (except Iron Discipline - that's mandatory), but more a list of things that you should never take, like, say:

1. 90% of the Doctrines.
2. Ratlings.
3. Sanctioned Psykers.
4. Tech-Priest Enginseers.
5. Commissars (90% of the time).
6. Storm Troopers (80% of the time Vets are better).
7. Did I mention the Doctrines?
8. Grenade Launchers. Ever. 2 points more gets you S7 AP2.
9. Missile Launchers. Ever. Unless your local meta-game has you facing hordes of Necrons and footslogging Marines endlessly.
10. Mortars. Ever.

And a few other odds and ends. Abiding by these will still allow for a variety of lists, from Armoured Company, to MechInf, to standard mixed Guard, to All-Infantry Guard.

BYE

fair enough. in reading all the other posts though it seemed like this was more saying what to take rather than what not to take

smart_alex wrote:@HBMC I agree with all but #2 i have had ratlings kill daemon princes before.

And I've seen Firewarriors defeat the Avatar of Khaine in HTH, doesn't make them good HTH fighters.

Anecdotal evidence is meaningless.

smart_alex wrote:Ratlings can be good if you use then correctly.

The 'correct' way to use Ratlings is to spend the 110 points it costs you for a full unit on something else. Furthermore, as they're 0-1, and require a whole Doctrine point, they're even more of a waste.

BYE

Rats belong in the same category as Commissars, Stormtroopers, and Remnant squads: choices that while not completely awful, still require a compelling reason to justify taking. Ratlings get better in larger games, and are actually decent at what they are designed to do: provide cheap sniper rifles.

The downsides that HBMC pointed out make them a good unit to steer people away from.

What about with the new 5th ed rules? Sniper rifles get rending, that ups them in my opinion (not enough to ever buy the crappy models but at least they're better).

Ozymandias, King of Kings

Well, I imagine 5th edition is going to change more about how to build a good 40k army then if Ratlings are bad enough to never be taken.

I mean, in a vacuum, yeah, if Rats got rending, they'd be a great unit. However, with the ways that LOS, screening, infiltration, cover, and Killpoints end up will also affect the quality of the unit.

10 Sniper Rifles (that don't take up a Command Platoon spot) or 3 lascannons that doesn't sound so bad to me.

Alternatively you could get 10 guys with one lascannon and one plasmagun.

Granted I don't know if they are worth a doctrine point.

For something to be worth a doctrine point, it has to have a significant impact on your army. Something that's stuck at 0-1 won't do that, even with Rending Sniper Rifles.

I'll never understand how GW can think that Sniper Rifles are not a precision weapon but a battery-style weapon that requires full squads of people to score 6's. Sniper Rifles should hit on 2's, wound on 2's, be AP2, ignore screening of all sorts, and on a roll To Hit of 4, 5, 6 the player gets to pick what model takes the hit (before rolling to wound). They would come in units of 1, for around 35 points each. We've been using them that way for years now, and Snipers actually act like *gasp* Snipers... not fething rifle teams...

BYE

well I will say this much. I have not run the rats in a long time. I do miss them at times but I do just fine without them. Out of all the "don't take these" units I would say they probably would be the first ones I cross out. But I would probably agree that they may belong on that list.

That's a pretty mean unit for only 35 points. I could see on a roll of a '6' you can pick the model but on a 4+ he's likely to earn back his points by the 2nd turn. I like your direction though.

Ozymandias, King of Kings

As I said, they don't come in squads, you might have 1 or 2 in your army, and you usually have to take something else to get them (like a unit of Eldar Rangers or Marine Scouts, or even a whole Infantry Platoon).

BYE

snipers are way to hard to use in the game as the real world use for them couldn't really be translated easily into game terms. the closest thing the game has to them now is a vindicare assasin

And he sucks too.

110 points (or 120, can't remember), plus his Inquisitorial Chaperone? Not worth it.

BYE

Jeez, RL and AdeptiCon takes me away from Dakka for a few months, and all the IG players come out of the woodwork to come up with something good.

About the only rule out of the last ten that I think needs modification is #9. It should be:
9. Missile Launchers. Unless almost every single heavy weapon that you take is a missile launcher, and you don't skimp on AP2 or less special weapons.

Anyone remember Mauleed's IG build?

Ah yes, forgot about that. Funnily enough the same thing can be said for Mortars. If you take them to the exclusion of all else (and I really do me all else) they can be dangerous.

BYE

especially with how they scatter. i've seen mortar heavy weapon teams do work on khorne berzerkers, and even hordes, but that rarely happens so i'd still refrain from using them

They're junk weapons - no denying that - but with the example I gave above, we're talking 30-35 Mortars, and that's it in the army. Mortars every where. It will kill stuff, if only because you're throwing that much at them.

But there are better ways than doing that. I'm sure the army that takes an equal number of Heavy Bolters will do better.

BYE

a Mortar team just isn't worth 80 points.

Mortar Teams for 50/65 points would be way better.

No damn way a Mortar is worth the same as a Heavy Bolter.

They're worth 40... maybe.

BYE

I don't see it mentioned, but it bears reiterating that nobody, under any circumstances, should take Ogryns. They're, in my personal opinion, the worst unit in the game, which, even in this, the worst armylist in the game, manages to succeed in distinguishing themselves in awfulness.

ogryns can be used well if held in a chimera all game until they need to do some counter charging, but that instance is rare, so yes they are crap. I'd take rough riders over them, but then again both units seem more like for fluff purposes than actual game effectiveness.

Agamemnon2, I disagree on one count. Yes, Ogryns do suck, but I do believe that the Imperial Guard can make a reasonably competitive army.

They're not top tier by any means, nor are they tournament-level broken like Falcdar or TMCs, but they can beat up on most armies just as well as others.

Not to go too off topic, but if one were to fix Ogryns without changing their cost, I'd say they need to have +1 Toughness and Attack, as well as the FNP USR.

CK

Bastirous666 wrote:ogryns can be used well if held in a chimera all game until they need to do some counter charging

Most enemy assault units come with an S8 powerfist in some form or another. S8 = dead Ogryn unit in 1-2 rounds of combat.

Ogryn aren't just bad, they make other units in your army worse just by being around.

BYE

Corpsman_of_Krieg wrote:Agamemnon2, I disagree on one count. Yes, Ogryns do suck, but I do believe that the Imperial Guard can make a reasonably competitive army.

They're not top tier by any means, nor are they tournament-level broken like Falcdar or TMCs, but they can beat up on most armies just as well as others.

The Guard's problem is that you could prune their army list by 20, 30 or even 40% without affecting many competitive armies. The list is full of chaff. In the Elites slot alone, there's one good choice (Veterans) and four horrible ones (Ratlings, Ogryns, Engineseers, Storm Troopers). Weapons choices are a bad joke, there's never an excuse to field a special weapon that isn't a plasma gun or a meltagun. All three advisors are overpriced for what they do, Commissars only somewhat, Priests horribly so, and even Psykers manage to be not worth their 12-point cost.

H.B.M.C. wrote:

Bastirous666 wrote:ogryns can be used well if held in a chimera all game until they need to do some counter charging

Most enemy assault units come with an S8 powerfist in some form or another. S8 = dead Ogryn unit in 1-2 rounds of combat.

Ogryn aren't just bad, they make other units in your army worse just by being around.

BYE

true enough. like i said i wouldn't use them ever, they just can't be good enough at their purpose to be effective

What's the consensus on Conscript platoons? 80 points nets you 20 models that can claim objectives right? How would two 20 conscript platoons, at 160 points for both, fare in missions like take and hold, or for performing roadblock duty for enemy assaults?

80 points nets you 20 models that can claim objectives right?

With LD5? You want them to hold objectives? Unless you stick independent commissar with them (which is not the best way to spend 50 points) they'll run at first morale check.

roadblock duty for enemy assaults?

For this duty, you need at least 50 of them. And commissar. 250 points. Too expensive for my taste.

What about an allied inquisitor? 20 more points would be Ld8. So 100 points for a 21 model ld8 roadblock. If your opponent shoots it, he's not shooting your more useful guardsmen or whatever. If he doesn't shoot it, it'll tie up the first cc squad or two to reach your lines for a turn or two.

Could even give the Inq a little wargear. Would this be at all viable? Not trying to be pendantic, just curious as to whether this would be usable.

People seem to find conscripts overwhelmingly decent. 20 of them are cheap, and can be easily babysat by a command squad. They hold up just as well in HtH and can rank up in COD.

On the downside, they cost a doctrine point and cost more then an HB/F squad.

They also cost points but don't add any shooting or any actual combat punch to your army.

I'd like to reply on the subject of Mortars. They pose one of the prime threats in the IG list...to the dang game length! I faced an army loaded down with Mortars once, and the guy's shooting phase was endless. It wasn't any more effective, it just took forever. Fire mortar. Measure scatter. Argue about where it ended up. Roll for partials. Roll to wound, enemy rolls saves, removes possibly a model. Roll scatter dice to determine where the next shot in the barrage flips to. Repeat forever and ever.

I'm sure that they are great vs. Orks or what have you...but I'm begging you, from all IG opponents out there, please, stick with weapons that roll to hit and wound. The Basilisk is fine, but please, no Mortars.

40kenthusiast wrote:I'd like to reply on the subject of Mortars. They pose one of the prime threats in the IG list...to the dang game length! I faced an army loaded down with Mortars once, and the guy's shooting phase was endless. It wasn't any more effective, it just took forever. Fire mortar. Measure scatter. Argue about where it ended up. Roll for partials. Roll to wound, enemy rolls saves, removes possibly a model. Roll scatter dice to determine where the next shot in the barrage flips to. Repeat forever and ever.

I'm sure that they are great vs. Orks or what have you...but I'm begging you, from all IG opponents out there, please, stick with weapons that roll to hit and wound. The Basilisk is fine, but please, no Mortars.

that's a really, really good point. If I was the king of 40k, I'd make Mortars heavy 2 48", with no LOS required. They'd be like immobile smart missle systems.

Anyone willing to field that many mortars should have some
quick method for resolving them or should be willing to let
things go once in a while. That's just crazy.

The simpler way would be the 3rd Ed Blast Multiplication. Work out how many hit, work out how many models are covered, work out partials, then multiply the hits by the amount of blast markers that hit.

BYE

@HMBC about the sniper rifles thing. I think that what youa re suggeesting while cool as heck would make ratlings and other snipers, WAAAY to lethal. What you are suggesting is somthing like what the vindicare can do which is wound on a 2+ and its AP2 and you can pick which models. I mean, think about it. You target a mob with a nob and warboss/or other character, and whiff they are all dead. Or a squad of termies would be wiped. I do agree we should pick the model but with 10 snipers firing and wounding on 2+ its just too much. However if IG were to get this in the future I would not be complaining.

smart_alex wrote:@HMBC about the sniper rifles thing. I think that what youa re suggeesting while cool as heck would make ratlings and other snipers, WAAAY to lethal. What you are suggesting is somthing like what the vindicare can do which is wound on a 2+ and its AP2 and you can pick which models. I mean, think about it. You target a mob with a nob and warboss/or other character, and whiff they are all dead. Or a squad of termies would be wiped. I do agree we should pick the model but with 10 snipers firing and wounding on 2+ its just too much. However if IG were to get this in the future I would not be complaining.

well now your not reading what he said, his suggestion was have like 1-2 per army max and they would be alone and have to have onther units present to use one (like an inquisitor and the vindicare, but less points). it makes total sense

Don't worry, I'm used to smart_alex not living up to his epithet.

BYE

we already have that, as I said its called a vindicare.

Unintentional irony is great!

BYE

what are you talking about. I thought you meant have the equivalent of 10 vindicares. I must NOT have read where you said 1-2 limit, in which case we already have a 0-1 limit called a vindicare. What irony do you speak of?

Oh good lord.

smart_alex, H.B.M.C.'s point, as I understand it, is that sniper rifles work in a very stupid way right now. He thinks the way the Vindicare's sniper rifle works is the most sensible way to handle it, and that all snipers should therefore work the way the Vindicare's does. This would go along with the availability of snipers becoming much more limited, as he stated on the previous page of this thread.

Is that clear enough for you?

probably not. anyway i agree that snipers should be worth something, they could be T3 or something like that, cost a lot less, have 48" range, AP 2 etc.

I agree with HBMC, sniper rifles right now are a joke, especially in squads with only one, such as light infantry squads. To be effective against anything, they need AP, possibly quite low.

The Vindicare Marksman rule becomes comparatively less powerful with the rumored casualty removal rules in 5th edition, which indicate that you can lose special weapons troopers off a squad earlier anyway. I think it definitely should be included for units such as IG snipers, as it's what gives the weapon its niche, which it currently lacks.

I do think snipers are a little crappy. Thats why I don't take em. However I thought this dicussion stemmed from ratlings. Ratlings are only ..what is it 11 point models after all.

yah well they are eleven points, a doctorine choice, 0-1, and they suck outside of shooting.
I must also say I disagree with you shuning of enginseers. They are great in vehical heavey armies, and even three russes can use some fixing up. they fix one russ they have made up their points, and the tactical value of a fixed up russ can be devistating

You are more likely to die than to lose your gun. It's not worth the points or Doctrine slot.

BYE