The average height for Greeks was 5 ft. 6 in. 2000 years ago, and now the average height is 5 ft. 8 in., 2000 years later. By doing the math they should be about 8 ft. 10 in. Is this right?
Dark Angels Champ-Master wrote:The average height for Greeks was 5 ft. 6 in. 2000 years ago, and now the average height is 5 ft. 8 in., 2000 years later. By doing the math they should be about 8 ft. 10 in. Is this right?
8-9 feet is supposed to be 'standard' for Astartes heights outside of their armor.
Uhh, by this logic it would be just a matter of time until men grow 1.000 meters high. I would think there's a certain limit, affected by both civilization standards as well as the environment (gravity, radiation, pollution, diet, etc).
And I'm pretty sure that the growth rate for said Greeks was not a steady line.
Given the conditions many humans in 40k live in, I would not be surprised at all to see such a development revert on many worlds in the setting. Actually, isn't this why Ratlings exist?
As for Space Marines, Jes Goodwin says they are on average 7 feet IN armour, and that's that.
Kanluwen wrote:
8-9 feet is supposed to be 'standard' for Astartes heights outside of their armor.
Find even one source that says that.
As Monster Rain pointed out, Jes Goodwin has a lifesize sketch he did early on. That's 8 feet tall, in armor that really doesn't add much to their height.
However, just for you, I dug out Imperial Armour Volume 2.
The size chart in the back puts a Marine at maybe 3/4s the size of a Dreadnought. A Dreadnought is going to be 3.7 meters tall, which is 12 feet and a lil' bit of change.
So we can guesstimate a Marine being 2.5 meters tall, which is 8.2 feet.
Kanluwen wrote:Jes Goodwin has a lifesize sketch he did early on. That's 8 feet tall, in armor that really doesn't add much to their height.
If he floats one feet above the ground, yes.
Kanluwen wrote:The size chart in the back puts a Marine at maybe 3/4s the size of a Dreadnought. A Dreadnought is going to be 3.7 meters tall, which is 12 feet and a lil' bit of change.
So we can guesstimate a Marine being 2.5 meters tall, which is 8.2 feet.
That said, the Dreadnought next to him is - for some strange reason - smaller than the ones at the top of the very same page...
Alfndrate wrote:Idk, I heard that Goto said they were 7 feet... but who am I to say.
Well, that's one case where Goto clearly sticks to what GW said, then.
Kanluwen wrote:Jes Goodwin has a lifesize sketch he did early on. That's 8 feet tall, in armor that really doesn't add much to their height.
If he floats one feet above the ground, yes.
Or if you realize that the 'ground' is the point where you start measuring from, then yes.
Kanluwen wrote:The size chart in the back puts a Marine at maybe 3/4s the size of a Dreadnought. A Dreadnought is going to be 3.7 meters tall, which is 12 feet and a lil' bit of change.
So we can guesstimate a Marine being 2.5 meters tall, which is 8.2 feet.
That said, the Dreadnought next to him is - for some strange reason - smaller than the ones at the top of the very same page...
It's not. It's at a different angle.
Alfndrate wrote:Idk, I heard that Goto said they were 7 feet... but who am I to say.
Well, that's one case where Goto clearly sticks to what GW said, then.
Except they haven't said 7 feet. They've said 8-9 feet 'on average', with some examples being 9.5-10 feet out of armor.
There could have been a stunt of growth but I think I am just about right considering at my local battle bunker they have a life sized one which is about 9 feet tall.
Kanluwen wrote:Or if you realize that the 'ground' is the point where you start measuring from, then yes.
So you are basically implying that the Space Marine on the lifesize drawing has one feet of invisible high heels that Jes did not bother drawing because the paper ended there?
Rather than the somewhat more obvious explanation that the scale should have started at "0" and not at "1"...
Kanluwen wrote:It's not. It's at a different angle.
Because all Dreadnoughts look much smaller from the side than from the front.
Kanluwen wrote:Except they haven't said 7 feet. They've said 8-9 feet 'on average', with some examples being 9.5-10 feet out of armor.
Kanluwen wrote:No, it's because of the fact that the stacks look smaller when viewed in profile rather than headon.
Take a ruler and measure them. They're 4mm high.
I actually did take an ... uhh, "optical aid" to make sure my eyes did not deceive me. I compared the lowest point of each Dreadnought with the highest, and they didn't add up. It's not just a matter of stacks, it's just that there's a height where there is nothing on one Dreadnought where there is still something on the other.
I'll take a ruler and check again once I get home just to make sure, though.
Either way, I still take Jes's lifesize drawing as gospel. Also because to me Jes ranks a bit higher than the writers who sat on the Forgeworld book. And it doesn't make us "guesstimate" but provides an actual scale.
Dark Angels Champ-Master wrote:But 12 ft. is a bit too much...
It just seems less believable thank the idea they're 7 feet.
I know Abnett refers to Space Marines as "Giants" in his books... 5-6 foot human... I would probably say 8 feet is on the lower end of giant sized, who knows man. I wait for proof from both sides.
Kanluwen wrote:Jes Goodwin has a lifesize sketch he did early on. That's 8 feet tall, in armor that really doesn't add much to their height.
If he floats one feet above the ground, yes.
Or if you realize that the 'ground' is the point where you start measuring from, then yes.
Look closely at the scale, count down from the 8. Note that the 'ground' level for the Marine is labelled 1'.
He does have his legs spread out, but that won't take a foot off his height.
So standing straight, he would be around 7'-7'6", which is what the studio said. If you listen to one of the podcasts Jes Goodwin and Jervis joke about the way BL authors keep exaggerating their height.
Daba wrote:So standing straight, he would be around 7'-7'6", which is what the studio said. If you listen to one of the podcasts Jes Goodwin and Jervis joke about the way BL authors keep exaggerating their height.
Heh, good point about the legs apart / standing straight - this would actually explain where the 7'6" come from. I'll incorporate this into my perception.
Do you have a link to that podcast, perchance? Could be funny.
Kanluwen wrote:Jes Goodwin has a lifesize sketch he did early on. That's 8 feet tall, in armor that really doesn't add much to their height.
If he floats one feet above the ground, yes.
Or if you realize that the 'ground' is the point where you start measuring from, then yes.
Look closely at the scale, count down from the 8. Note that the 'ground' level for the Marine is labelled 1'.
He does have his legs spread out, but that won't take a foot off his height.
So standing straight, he would be around 7'-7'6", which is what the studio said.
When I stand in the pose that the Marine is standing in, it takes a good 3/4 of a foot off my height. It's a ridiculous pose to use for a scale.
If you listen to one of the podcasts Jes Goodwin and Jervis joke about the way BL authors keep exaggerating their height.
Yes, many BL authors do keep exaggerating their height.
However the core BL authors, especially Abnett who's been involved for a long time and has helped shape 40k to what we have now in terms of the background point towards 8 feet being the 'average' for an Astartes now.
Kanluwen wrote:However the core BL authors, especially Abnett who's been involved for a long time and has helped shape 40k to what we have now in terms of the background point towards 8 feet being the 'average' for an Astartes now.
Well, there's a reason where the term "Abnettverse" comes from, is there not?
Alfndrate wrote:I know Abnett refers to Space Marines as "Giants" in his books... 5-6 foot human... I would probably say 8 feet is on the lower end of giant sized, who knows man. I wait for proof from both sides.
You ever met anyone who is 7-8ft? That is pretty damn gigantic
Kanluwen wrote:However the core BL authors, especially Abnett who's been involved for a long time and has helped shape 40k to what we have now in terms of the background point towards 8 feet being the 'average' for an Astartes now.
Well, there's a reason where the term "Abnettverse" comes from, is there not?
Yeah, it is. The Abnettverse is also regarded as the most canon thing that hasn't come from the principal minds responsible for 40k.
SilverMK2 wrote:You ever met anyone who is 7-8ft? That is pretty damn gigantic
Two things that shows us.
1) 7-8' looks about right, and dose cover giant
2) space marines wear corsets.
Look up ted van der parre. Worlds talest strong man. 7' tall and 350lbs. Id guess that he would give you some idea of what a marine withou armour would be, if thay were in a 70s cop show.
Kanluwen wrote:Yeah, it is. The Abnettverse is also regarded as the most canon thing that hasn't come from the principal minds responsible for 40k.
The internet - I just did a real quick search on the term "Abnettverse" - seems to disagree with your assessment. Well, apparently there actually are quite a lot of people who think like you do concerning his novels, but there's just as much people - or a small deal more - who say the opposite. Personally, I think the quality of his novels and the general feeling he evokes just give him more leeway than other writers. He does good books, so people are willing to take his word over those of another author.
Not that this has any meaning, mind you. At the end of the day it matters little what a perceived(!) majority thinks. If it's going against what the people at GW said it's still wrong. See the comments from Gav Thorpe, Andy Hoare, etc.
He does have his legs spread out, but that won't take a foot off his height.
So standing straight, he would be around 7'-7'6", which is what the studio said.
When I stand in the pose that the Marine is standing in, it takes a good 3/4 of a foot off my height. It's a ridiculous pose to use for a scale.
The Marine is standing with his legs slightly further out than his shoulders, this is (generously) 30 degrees from the horizontal (actually 26.56 if you measure but 30 is easier to work with), then if the leg span is roughly half the body height (actually it's lower so this number would be lower), you would need to be 16' tall to take off 1'.
If you lose 3/4 of a foot from your height, then you must be over 10-11' tall yourself or you're standing with your legs much further apart than the ~30 degrees the Marine is standing.
Yeah, don't get me wrong, I'm not suggesting that Space Marines are some crazy height or anything, but I'm pretty sure Jes Goodwin drawing one that's 8 feet tall is a decent starting point.
Monster Rain wrote:Yeah, don't get me wrong, I'm not suggesting that Space Marines are some crazy height or anything, but I'm pretty sure Jes Goodwin drawing one that's 7 feet tall is a decent starting point.
Monster Rain wrote:Yeah, don't get me wrong, I'm not suggesting that Space Marines are some crazy height or anything, but I'm pretty sure Jes Goodwin drawing one that's 8 feet tall is a decent starting point.
He's drawing one that's 7'-and-a-bit tall. The scale starts at 1' and counts to 8', there is no 0-1' in the diagram.
If you take into account his legs being apart, he gains between 3-6" on his total height, but that's in armour including the crest of his helmet and the soles of his boots.
SilverMK2 wrote:You ever met anyone who is 7-8ft? That is pretty damn gigantic
I've had a few co-workers that are 7ft tall. Yes, Darth Vader was an appropriate nickname for them, but 7ft still seems "in range". If you really have to duck a good foot or so to get through a door, you're a giant... you're reaching Space Marine height
SilverMK2 wrote:You ever met anyone who is 7-8ft? That is pretty damn gigantic
I've had a few co-workers that are 7ft tall. Yes, Darth Vader was an appropriate nickname for them, but 7ft still seems "in range". If you really have to duck a good foot or so to get through a door, you're a giant... you're reaching Space Marine height
You're forgetting that Astartes are not only tall, they're impossibly broad and muscular. A 7'6" guy with the bulk of 4 bodybuilders would certainly qualify as a giant in my book. Also note that marines generally don't have to stoop through doors or down corridors. 8+ foot marines would be incapable of sitting in Rhino seats, fitting through doors, etc.
I don't get why people are so fixated on space marines being so big. It really wouldn't provide any combat benefit, and in fact would be a big negative for marines operating underground, in cities, in boarding actions, etc.
The "impossibly large" part of Space Marines doesn't come from their height. Although 7' is reasonably taller than most of you people claiming it's too short are actually imagining.
Their super-human largeness is two-fold, and they are both related to bulk. A space marine doesn't look like a 7' tall human, such as a basketball player. He looks like a comic-book over-muscled guy, who also happens to be 7' tall. As in, totally out of human proportion in girth, muscle-mass, and even muscle locations. A Space Marine is as tall as Shaq, but two and a half times as heavy. And while they have denser bones, and more bone volume, most of that is muscle.
The second factor in their unbelievable bulk is speed. These guys make body builders look like 90 lbs weaklings with their physical build alone. And body builders are noted for their unathleticness because of all that overbuilt muscle mass. Humans don't imagine people that size being fast. However, Space Marines aren't just good athletes. They make our world-class athletes look like children with how much faster they can move.
So you have a guy who's as tall as Shaq, with another one and a half pureed Shaqs distributed over his body, moving faster than hybrid child of Jet Li and Carl Lewis. That's a nightmare to a normal human.
It really wouldn't provide any combat benefit, and in fact would be a big negative for marines operating underground, in cities, in boarding actions, etc.
Except being damn frightening to a number of races, not just humans, and having the strength and mass to wield horrifically powerful weapons, of a kind not often seen without a 3-ton vehicle transporting it, as a frontline, infantry weapon.
height would vary depending on the man in question.a tall human(7ft-ish)would make a 9 foot marine.if their termiersd then they would be a minimum of10 ft and thats only if their really small as a human(5ft)
What makes a Terminator so big is the armor, not the guy inside it. Look at them... they have no necks, their heads are almost in the middle of their chests. PA is something you wear... Terminator armor is almost something you pilot.
the color purple wrote:I don't get why people are so fixated on space marines being so big. It really wouldn't provide any combat benefit, and in fact would be a big negative for marines operating underground, in cities, in boarding actions, etc.
I think that in a lot of people's mind, Bigger = Better. Which isn't really true everywhere, as you pointed out, but it's a popular belief that gets built upon in a lot of recent Hollywood movies, or Black Library novels.
It's just like people automatically think Astartes armour has to confer more protection just because its bulkier than the norm, completely foregoing all the additional features that have been built into it that are actually what gives a Marine his versatility. Apart from the fact that a Marine is already bulky by himself and the armour needs to fit him.
Or that Astartes bolters have to do more damage just because they're bigger, never mind that the size difference is both overrated and has no effect on the caliber or that the additional space could, again, be taken up by additional internal systems or the armour plating that some sources mention are added to the guns to make them more resilient in combat.
The whole issue comes down to extreme simplification (placing too much emphasis on "popular" aspects such as only thinking about size and damage whilst forgetting about "less heroic" but just as important details in the background).
That's my analysis, anyways. In today's society, Goliath wins over David, because Goliath is cooler and does bigger explosions.
I for my part am just lucky that GW themselves do not participate in this "size creep". Yet.
Yes the scale on that lifesize marine is wrong. It should be evident though that the marine in armour is supposed to be 8' as the top of the head is purposefully placed at the 8' line. Minus the thickness of the armour and you get a marine that is about seven and a half to seven and three quarters feet high. This is your standard marine, some will be taller and some may even be shorter. That figure seems to be what the people who make the marines and write the codecis regard as the standard height.
The only marines that are close to ten feet are the ones in propaganda posters or exaggerated stories. I used to think eight, but it seems only the black library books say that.
cadbren wrote:Yes the scale on that lifesize marine is wrong. It should be evident though that the marine in armour is supposed to be 8' as the top of the head is purposefully placed at the 8' line. Minus the thickness of the armour and you get a marine that is about seven and a half to seven and three quarters feet high. This is your standard marine, some will be taller and some may even be shorter. That figure seems to be what the people who make the marines and write the codecis regard as the standard height.
Ah, it's not really evident, considering that it would have been easy for Jes to just draw an 8 feet Marine if he wanted to have one.
If you agree the head was purposefully placed at the "8 feet line", this implies the scale has been there before the Marine, which in turn means that the squares are accurate and somebody just messed up when numbering them.
If it's not supposed to be "to scale", there'd be no point in the entire "lifesize" drawing in the first place.
And power armour really isn't that thick - I suppose the soles would add ~5-6 cm to an Astartes' size, but that's about it. So your average Marine without power armour is not MUCH shorter than 7 feet.
The Marine size picture is probably accurate, but there's no way an Astartes is that bulky out of armor. They'll be waddling like ducks and god forbid they accidently drop a grenade and attempt to bend over and pick it up....I say a marine is a bit bigger than the basketball player and less wider than the Astartes in that picture.
Lynata wrote:Astartes bolters have to do more damage just because they're bigger, never mind that the size difference is both overrated and has no effect on the caliber
Hello?bolters fire exploding rounds!roughly equivilent to AA12s firing AP high velocity 50cal grenades
Wasn't a thread EXACTLY like this posted like a week ago?
Lynata wrote:
Daba wrote:So standing straight, he would be around 7'-7'6", which is what the studio said. If you listen to one of the podcasts Jes Goodwin and Jervis joke about the way BL authors keep exaggerating their height.
Heh, good point about the legs apart / standing straight - this would actually explain where the 7'6" come from. I'll incorporate this into my perception.
Do you have a link to that podcast, perchance? Could be funny.
And didn't I make this exact same point, that his legs are apart, in said thread when you posted that picture?
What is this I don't even.
Yeah, not sure why people think that Marines are like 9+ feet tall, that is really pushing it, and it comes off as completely ridiculous IMO. Space Marines have interacted with normal humans, and even Primarchs, all being at the least a little taller than marines, have interacted with humans as well, at least in Black Library.
Seven feet is very tall by normal standards, not even counting their prodigious bulk.
Though it can vary. For instance, some Space Wolf character is described as massive even by Astartes standards.
Going back to some of the earlier posts i dont think evolution or gravity would have much to do with it.
Seeing as they are bio-engineered wouldnt they just be made as big and powerful as required.
Also as models they dont seem any bigger than orks, tau or eldar in height so are all these races 7,8 10foot or whatever we are saying they are
so primarchs can walk through a titans plasma reactor unscathed?this was the armour's original purpose,to allow mechanus to repare them.they reported the success and the emperor said that the best marines can wear it if trained.
Deadshot wrote:so primarchs can walk through a titans plasma reactor unscathed?this was the armour's original purpose,to allow mechanus to repare them.they reported the success and the emperor said that the best marines can wear it if trained.
They can take Lascannon shots to the chest and walk through it.
Spoiler:
Fulgrim could physically wrestle with an Avatar of Khaine, which constantly radiates heat, and crush its neck, it exploding wounded him, but not substantially.
Hell, Fulgrim, the novel, outright says "And a blow that would have splintered Tactical Dreadnought Armour, could barely bruise the skin of a Primarch," or something to that effect.
Admittedly, this is all Black Library, but for the most part, that is the only place to really get feats for a Primarch.
cadbren wrote:Yes the scale on that lifesize marine is wrong. It should be evident though that the marine in armour is supposed to be 8' as the top of the head is purposefully placed at the 8' line. Minus the thickness of the armour and you get a marine that is about seven and a half to seven and three quarters feet high. This is your standard marine, some will be taller and some may even be shorter. That figure seems to be what the people who make the marines and write the codecis regard as the standard height.
Ah, it's not really evident, considering that it would have been easy for Jes to just draw an 8 feet Marine if he wanted to have one.
He probably thought he had.
If you agree the head was purposefully placed at the "8 feet line", this implies the scale has been there before the Marine,
No it doesn't, the grid lines could have been added later for effect. The y-axis is screwy because it starts at 1 when it should start at 0, a mistake that was either not noticed or considered too difficult to fix. The marine is meant to be 8' tall in armour or else the high mark wouldn't be 8.
If it's not supposed to be "to scale", there'd be no point in the entire "lifesize" drawing in the first place.
By scale I meant the numbers down the side. I have no idea if those foot markings are actual feet.
Are you suggesting that the drawing is the intended size of a marine and that because the numbers are wrong the marine is recorded as being a foot taller than he actually is? It would help to know the actual size of this picture.
And power armour really isn't that thick - I suppose the soles would add ~5-6 cm to an Astartes' size, but that's about it.
Arrr, what do you base that on? There's also the height of his helmet to take into consideration.
It really wouldn't provide any combat benefit, and in fact would be a big negative for marines operating underground, in cities, in boarding actions, etc.
Except being damn frightening to a number of races, not just humans, and having the strength and mass to wield horrifically powerful weapons, of a kind not often seen without a 3-ton vehicle transporting it, as a frontline, infantry weapon.
Ability to wield heavy weapons has nothing to do with height and everything to do with bulk. Or are you suggesting real-life 8+ foot giants like Robert Wadlow would be better at wielding heavy bolters and lascannons than a 7' space marine would?
Something else that hasnt been brought up: a lot of talk has been made about the marine in Jes' drawing having that silly legs spread pose. Well, have you looked at a SM mini? Other than assault marines sometimes and the old metal GK ballerina Justicar, all marines are in a similar pose with legs spread. I think this also contributes to the whole truescale thing, as a marine standing upright would be taller, at least a head above a guardsman (talking about models here.)
Deadshot wrote:Hello?bolters fire exploding rounds!roughly equivilent to AA12s firing AP high velocity 50cal grenades
Yep! I just felt compelled to remind everyone that (at least as per Codex fluff) Astartes and non-Astartes bolters fire the same equivalent, as there are some fans who believe differently, and some licensed products such as the FFGRPG actually agree with this weird assessment.
I actually like the AA12 comparison myself. Just load it with Frag12 shells and you have explosive bolts. The only thing thing missing is the miniature rocket booster.
Void__Dragon wrote:And didn't I make this exact same point, that his legs are apart, in said thread when you posted that picture?
And I objected? Huh.
Sorry, I must have been in a different state of thought then, either derailed by other arguments in the thread or simply too tired to think straight. :/
cadbren wrote:No it doesn't, the grid lines could have been added later for effect.
Ah, but if they were added later then they could have clearly drawn 8 lines instead of 7. If they had wanted 8 feet.
cadbren wrote:Arrr, what do you base that on? There's also the height of his helmet to take into consideration.
Based solely on the picture, guesstimating the armoured sole in relation to the 1-inch-square next to him. As for the helmet, power armour really isn't that thick - look at the SoB whose suit confers the same protection but has a much smaller profile. It's a cm or so, but not in any way comparable to what you see on the shoulder pauldrons or the soles. You may also try to mentally fit a head inside, of course, like that Marine Anatomy image someone posted on the prior pages.
There's always dispute on how tall Astartes are, but right now, look upward about 45 degrees and imagine looking into the face of one and that's about how large they are.
"the Space Marine's skeleton will be larger and exponentially stronger than a normal man's with growth having topped out at around 7-7.5 feet in height"
I think the work that Phil had put into this is very good and well thought out, and pulls together quite well the different interpretations of Space Marine physiology.
I don't see what the debate is about; if the average height of a Marine is seven and a half feet, with a couple of extra inches for armour, that's pretty bloody gigantic when you also consider their bulk.
While I enjoy the "artscale" depictions some of the GW artists do, and that have been realised in model form during some of the more notable truescale modelling efforts, they can't be taken as evidence of larger marines; by those scales, marines would be ten+ feet tall, and that's just impractical.
Remember, marines still have to operate in cities and ships designed for normal human occupation; an almost-eight-foot mantank is already less than ideally suited to such terrain, with only their vast strength and ability to shoulder through normal walls making it feasible.
And don't even get me started on Terminator armour; any design that requires the wearer to dislocate both shoulders and break their neck to fit inside is rubbish. The way that GW have carried forward the legacy of "backbreaker" termies from their early models annoys me no end, and it's taken me nearly an entire sketchbook's worth of my shoddy concept drawings to suitably remedy it. Not to mention the idea of the armour adding such a large amount to a marine's height is daft; take a regular marine, add the "hood", larger pads, and thicker plating, and you have sensible terminator armour - none of this ten-feet-tall from soles to hairline rubbish.
Monster Rain wrote:Actually, according to my reading they might be taller. I've heard of them being up to 3 meters.
Your reading isn't in anything official then.
If we discount the Grey Knights by Ben Counter, then yeah I guess.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
the color purple wrote:I don't get why people are so fixated on space marines being so big. It really wouldn't provide any combat benefit, and in fact would be a big negative for marines operating underground, in cities, in boarding actions, etc.
I always thought it would be funny reading about a terminator boarding party attempting to navigate a Tau vessel.
"Sir, we have teleported across, but Brother Jobe is stuck in the doorway. Damn these tiny Xenos!"
I would agree that's funny,but in reality the Brother Jobe(who's name was taken from the Battle report in WD370,Dreadknight pilot,I believe)would take is power fist or Daemon Hammer(or even his bare fist)and smash it down.Or simply muscle through.
I would agree that's funny,but in reality the Brother Jobe(who's name was taken from the Battle report in WD370,Dreadknight pilot,I believe)would take is power fist or Daemon Hammer(or even his bare fist)and smash it down.Or simply muscle through.
True (and yeah, I think thats where the name came from, lol) but I'd still have to say that any warrior so heavy and bulky would be at a large disadvantage when fighting in any kind of cramped conditions.
I mean if nothing else, a Marine could never fight in a multi-story building, as he'd fall right through the floor!
All buildings in 40K worth the name are built from reinforced ferrocrete and adamantine girders.
... or something. Still, Imperial buildings are built to last thousands of years. Only the lowest of the low Hive-dweller is going to live in a cardboard box.
Lynata wrote:I think vehicles might be more of a problem. A Rhino totals 2.6 meters in height, and this is including its tracks.
Not as big an issue as you'd think; have you seen inside a modern APC? They're horrifying little sweatboxes with only barely enough room for the occupants and gear, I think the Rhino could just barely handle ten marines in armour, providing the area under the seats was used for munition storage, and they sat with knees almost touching the opposite rank.
Yodhrin wrote:Not as big an issue as you'd think; have you seen inside a modern APC? They're horrifying little sweatboxes with only barely enough room for the occupants and gear, I think the Rhino could just barely handle ten marines in armour, providing the area under the seats was used for munition storage, and they sat with knees almost touching the opposite rank.
Yeah, I know - the Rhino actually looks pretty comfortable, at least its door is much larger than the one from the (German) APC I rode in. Still, if some Marines really were 3 meters or even bigger ... I say they just wouldn't fit through either the side door or the top hatch, and considering that they also grow in width when you scale them up like this, I doubt that a Rhino would be able to hold ten of them.
If the GW designers really joked about some BL novel writers for making Marines so ridiculously oversized (sadly I've missed that podcast) then I think it's well deserved. It just seems some of the authors forgot that Marines and normal humans occasionally use the same stuff.
Just stumbled over this out of pure accident, by the way - thought it might be interesting to some, given that it deals with armour thickness, lasgun-vs-Marine efficiency and the ability of an Astartes to move in unpowered armour:
"Individual plates of armour can be up to an inch thick and have a special 'honeycomb' design which helps to dissipate energy and localise any damage suffered by the suit. Against most small arms the armour reduces the chance of injury by between 50-85%, and it provides some form of protection against all except the most powerful weapons encountered on the battlefields of the 41st millennium.
[...]
On its own a suit of power armour weighs over 250 lbs, and even a Space Marine would find it difficult to move while wearing it were it not for the electrically motivated fibre bundles implanted in the armour."
- from the 2E Marine 'dex.
Actually, the Marine in question was having tea. The reason the comment about the finger was made was that the Marine was drinking from a human-sized teacup... pinky extended and everything.
I am loath to respond to this thread as it appears weekly it seems, but the drawing being shown here is odd looking because the marine's arms are far to short. This marine wouldn't be able to wipe his hind end...
I think they still need to do that in the 41st millenium.
Or maybe this is the true purpose for the servitors?
Most house-hold ceilings are 8ft tall so 7ft to 7ft 6 seems reasonable for Space Marines otherwise they would get sore necks and heads going through civilian buildings.
Cheesecat wrote:Most house-hold ceilings are 8ft tall so 7ft to 7ft 6 seems reasonable for Space Marines otherwise they would get sore necks and heads going through civilian buildings.
Maybe in the real world, but this is 40K we're talking about. Every building is a cathedral, with ceilings soaring 10, 20, 30 meters overhead, feth-off huge stained glass windows everywhere, torches and candelabras the size of Rhinos, and servo-skulls and Cherubim flapping about everywhere.
There's some truth to that, but it gets problematic when you intend to have Space Marines fight something other than Imperials.
Also, space ships - despite sporting vast cathedral windows and gun-halls - are often described as very cramped, its armsmen favoring shotguns over sniper rifles. I think they would have rather small bulkheads, too. Also easier to close and seal off in case of an emergency.
In the end, few buildings and vehicles are built specifically for Space Marine proportions. We know the Rhino isn't.
They say that... but, then, Space Hulks are these cavernous things, with wide grill-work halls or floors plated in adamantine sheets.
I think that all ships in the 40K universe, regardless of faction of origin, are actually built of the apparently-common metal called "Plotanium". Plotanium has a rather elastic molecular nature, in that it seems to hold its shape for the most part, until the story elements call for a passage to be cramped and narrow, or a given chamber within a space ship to be huge and sweeping.
Cheesecat wrote:Most house-hold ceilings are 8ft tall so 7ft to 7ft 6 seems reasonable for Space Marines otherwise they would get sore necks and heads going through civilian buildings.
Maybe in the real world, but this is 40K we're talking about. Every building is a cathedral, with ceilings soaring 10, 20, 30 meters overhead, feth-off huge stained glass windows everywhere, torches and candelabras the size of Rhinos, and servo-skulls and Cherubim flapping about everywhere.
I'm pretty sure some civilian buildings don't have cathedral-like proportions, like a shanty town in a hive city for example.
Lynata wrote:I think vehicles might be more of a problem. A Rhino totals 2.6 meters in height, and this is including its tracks.
Not as big an issue as you'd think; have you seen inside a modern APC? They're horrifying little sweatboxes with only barely enough room for the occupants and gear, I think the Rhino could just barely handle ten marines in armour, providing the area under the seats was used for munition storage, and they sat with knees almost touching the opposite rank.
I'm pretty sure some civilian buildings don't have cathedral-like proportions, like a shanty town in a hive city for example.
Again, Plotanium. It's all built of Plotanium. A Rhino is cramped and uncomfortable for a pack of IG riding in it... but roomy and spacious when a dozen Space Marines pile into the back. That Hive-slum? A flak-board box with a leaky roof and rat-eaten stairs when filled with normal residents... it becomes a ferro-crete Gothic cathedral when a Space Marine so much as *thinks* about stepping into it.
Plotanium! Don't build your Dark Future without it!
I've actually just heard the Podcast that was mentioned earlier, it's still available on the GW website.
"I say seven to seven foot six, because actually, if you read the novels, they get progressively bigger every time they write a novel ... <chuckles>"
"So, yeah, but at seven ... seven, seven foot six ... if you see that drawing against the wall, they're absolutely massive! It's not the height. I mean, yeah, there are guys around that height, they play basketball and stuff, but actually if you see how broad it is ... and if you imagine it is like with a cartoon hole in the wall you get with Daffy Duck when he runs through something... It is just immense, it's scary! You don't need to be any bigger than that. You could probably get away with six foot six and still be intensively scary."
So yeah, so much from Jes Goodwin. He also points out he fethed up the numbers on the scale and only noticed a full year later, by the way, just in case there were still any doubts about that.
I can recommend the Podcast, Jes sounds like a fun guy and there's a lot of interesting design stuff in there!
Dark Angels Champ-Master wrote:The average height for Greeks was 5 ft. 6 in. 2000 years ago, and now the average height is 5 ft. 8 in., 2000 years later. By doing the math they should be about 8 ft. 10 in. Is this right?
Erm, the average height of humans ries and falls every few centuries. For example people in the middle ages used to be quite short, and middle-age heroes that were called "giants" are likely to have been shorter than 1.90m (whats that in feet? Maybe 6 foot 5"?), wheras today the taller people on this planet reach 2.20 or more (i think 7f 5")
I don't think you guys are taking gravity in effect. Obviously the original Space Marines were created at 8 feet but when you take in zero gravity that could easily make them 12 feet over several long campaigns in space.
While I think you could certainly grow a few inches in zero gravity, you wouldn't grow 4 feet, and you would also rapidly lose muscle and bone density...
Space Marines don't just chill out in zero gravity all day every day between battles. Their ships have artificial gravity, just like every other ship in the Imperium. While they certainly train in zero g, I'm sure they also train in high g environments too, and it's to their benefit to spend the majority of their time in 1g or more to keep themselves fit.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
9-10 is probably the upper average for most chapters.
And they fit through doors, use stairs, fight in human-sized ships and cities how...?
CalgarsPimpHand wrote:While I think you could certainly grow a few inches in zero gravity, you wouldn't grow 4 feet, and you would also rapidly lose muscle and bone density...
Space Marines don't just chill out in zero gravity all day every day between battles. Their ships have artificial gravity, just like every other ship in the Imperium. While they certainly train in zero g, I'm sure they also train in high g environments too, and it's to their benefit to spend the majority of their time in 1g or more to keep themselves fit.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
9-10 is probably the upper average for most chapters.
And they fit through doors, use stairs, fight in human-sized ships and cities how...?
As heroes of the Imperium, you're assuming buildings are made for the humans?! thats laughable... Most doors now are 7-8 ft. High, its not hard to believe that any door built 40k years into the future will be built for your average human, when the man running the show had his 10 foot super soldiers running through everything...
I'm deadly serious Alf, 6.5 is probably the standard when you consider so many come from primitive backgrounds or higher grav worlds.
Think about it. In a more primitive society they would likely not get as much food as they need to grow as much as possible, this is probably because of all the nasty beasties trying to eat them.
Higher grav worlds pretty much explain themselves. They would be broader and really muscley but not very tall...
purplefood wrote:I'm deadly serious Alf, 6.5 is probably the standard when you consider so many come from primitive backgrounds or higher grav worlds.
Think about it. In a more primitive society they would likely not get as much food as they need to grow as much as possible, this is probably because of all the nasty beasties trying to eat them.
Higher grav worlds pretty much explain themselves. They would be broader and really muscley but not very tall...
Yea, that's why the Grey Knights are actually on the smaller scale of the Marines, though they compensate by being broader. And full of plot armor.
purplefood wrote:I'm deadly serious Alf, 6.5 is probably the standard when you consider so many come from primitive backgrounds or higher grav worlds.
Think about it. In a more primitive society they would likely not get as much food as they need to grow as much as possible, this is probably because of all the nasty beasties trying to eat them.
Higher grav worlds pretty much explain themselves. They would be broader and really muscley but not very tall...
I would agree, until you realize that the process of creating a space marine physically undoes many of the issues you find in these primitive worlds. Just look at the Blood Angels Codex... the process of making them into blood angels takes them from being this ugly person and brings them out beautiful people... I don't remember what the exact wording is though...
Inconsistencies aside, how is it that the person instrumental in the creation of the Space Marines says that the marines are 7'-7'6" and is still ignored.
I'm 6'5 1/2" (that 1/2" is really important...) and the top of my head would just come up to Shaq's chin. Take Shaq, add another 2/3 body width, bulk him and 'buff' him out, put him in armor and you'd have a Marine... how is this not enough?
purplefood wrote:I'm deadly serious Alf, 6.5 is probably the standard when you consider so many come from primitive backgrounds or higher grav worlds.
Think about it. In a more primitive society they would likely not get as much food as they need to grow as much as possible, this is probably because of all the nasty beasties trying to eat them.
Higher grav worlds pretty much explain themselves. They would be broader and really muscley but not very tall...
I would agree, until you realize that the process of creating a space marine physically undoes many of the issues you find in these primitive worlds. Just look at the Blood Angels Codex... the process of making them into blood angels takes them from being this ugly person and brings them out beautiful people... I don't remember what the exact wording is though...
That's because it re-writes your DNA so you become a super human but it doesn't un-do environmental changes like muscle mass or height:width ratio. So if you're 4.5 feet when you get all Space Marine-d up then you'll only get to be about 6-7 feet when you're finished but it won't make you less broad or more broad unless something is wrong with the gene-seed (See: Haeger from the SW omnibus).
We all have a genetic pre-disposition to height and other factors, thus why Americans like myself are fat, the Brits have an innate ability to make others feel bad through a verbal tongue lashing, and a space marine was meant to be a massive super soldier. Too bad the organs you have implanted in you completely screw up all previous genetic and environmental issues...
Read any space marine novel... keep count on how many times they say they aren't human... of course they aren't human, they're genetically modified angels of death...
Edit: You can't use a corrupt gene-seed as an example, its a statistical outlier.
Uhlan wrote:Inconsistencies aside, how is it that the person instrumental in the creation of the Space Marines says that the marines are 7'-7'6" and is still ignored.
But that entire diagram is completely suspect at best. The scale isn't proper on it. It happens though, people rebel against bits and pieces of a universe that don't match the impressions they're initially given, especially when there's so much conflicting evidence.
Alfndrate wrote:We all have a genetic pre-disposition to height and other factors, thus why Americans like myself are fat, the Brits have an innate ability to make others feel bad through a verbal tongue lashing, and a space marine was meant to be a massive super soldier. Too bad the organs you have implanted in you completely screw up all previous genetic and environmental issues...
Read any space marine novel... keep count on how many times they say they aren't human... of course they aren't human, they're genetically modified angels of death...
Edit: You can't use a corrupt gene-seed as an example, its a statistical outlier.
If you had actually read what i posted you would see i was saying that a corrupt gene-seed can completly and utterly mess with genetic and environmental factors.
The organs implanted don't make an SM 3-4 feet taller, they will give him some growth but only to the extent of 2.5 feet, other than that there is little more growth unless they spend a lot of time in 0G.
Of course they aren't human, but they still have limits in how far they can grow and frankly 10 feet is way to far, 8 is pushing it and i think 6.5-7 is about right. Also in Brothers of the Snake the chapter master is described as being 3 metres tall and he 'towers' over other SM so i'd say that leaves most SM at 7 feet or less.
Uhlan wrote:Inconsistencies aside, how is it that the person instrumental in the creation of the Space Marines says that the marines are 7'-7'6" and is still ignored.
But that entire diagram is completely suspect at best. The scale isn't proper on it. It happens though, people rebel against bits and pieces of a universe that don't match the impressions they're initially given, especially when there's so much conflicting evidence.
Well, he acknowledged the discrepancy in the artwork, but again says that the height is 7'-7'6".
I'd chalk up the differences to 'heroic exaggeration', 'rumor, inuendo, myth or outright lies'... like GW's take on all 40k fluff.
Well it's fan based, thats one thing for sure. And they really don't need to be exact how GW tells them too. Take a good look at some of the marine shots they took, they aren't really that exact or anything.
Lord of Baal wrote:Space marine the game isn't accurate, it is fan based.
Can you explain how it is not accurate?
Funny... some people see the 40k universe as a cartoon. I see it filed with real folks in my minds eye. Probably one of the reasons I can't relate to the characters in the Space Marines game.
BTW, it is mentioned in one ot the Heresy novels that the Marines border on Acromegaly. The primarchs from whom they were created are proportionate as they were desgned from the beginning to be the size they are. Space Marines are genetically augmented normal humans.
Lord of Baal wrote:Well it's fan based, thats one thing for sure. And they really don't need to be exact how GW tells them too. Take a good look at some of the marine shots they took, they aren't really that exact or anything.
Yes, clearly there's no reason for them to be exact. The licensing manager just tells them to be "closesies".
I'd suggest you reread your post, and realize just how uninformed you sound.
I don't think so, your talking about imperial guard. I go to the Los Angeles Battle Bunker, the manager has read every novel and book since he has been in the hobby since a young boy and he says there about nine feet up.. Here take a good look at this life sized marine in the right corner. Sorry if you can't really see it but you can actually see its green shoulder pad. It's a dark angels marine in this photo. I am actually in this group photo lol. The Bunker had a hobby-pocolypse which was like a GW party that lasted through the night until the morning basically for 33 hours. Anyways I won a painting competition in the squad category and it was awesome. + 250000 point apoc game a side.
You're ranting, and not forming any kind of coherent statement or logical argument.
Simply put: Space Marine is not a "fan" project. THQ works very closely with GW's IP manager, Alan Merrett.
If you don't know what IP is, it's "intellectual property". The entirety of Warhammer 40,000 is considered "IP". Merrett makes sure it goes within the realm of what GW wants and has published.
In a different chapter to Ultramarines i presume?
We are using them as a frame of reference correct?
BEcause in that video i posted they are described as 7 feet, so it's not without the realms of possibility that they are 6.5 feet.
Well, then apparently the author of that book has no idea what he is talking about, as has been evidenced multiple times from designer drawings and more credible references, marines IN ARMOR are much definitely around the 8 foot range. Not 9 feet, not 3 meters (10 feet???), 8 feet. Heck the scale drawing earlier in this thread pegs them as 7' tall.
Lord of Baal wrote:Well it's fan based, thats one thing for sure. And they really don't need to be exact how GW tells them too. Take a good look at some of the marine shots they took, they aren't really that exact or anything.
Yes, clearly there's no reason for them to be exact. The licensing manager just tells them to be "closesies".
I'd suggest you reread your post, and realize just how uninformed you sound.
So then we should consider Space Marine, the DoW games, Fire Warrior, and Chaos Gate to be canon?
Automatically Appended Next Post:
ph34r wrote:
Monster Rain wrote:
flota wrote:arent SM 3 meters tall?
According to Blood Reaver they are.
Well, then apparently the author of that book has no idea what he is talking about, as has been evidenced multiple times from designer drawings and more credible references, marines IN ARMOR are much definitely around the 8 foot range. Not 9 feet, not 3 meters (10 feet???), 8 feet. Heck the scale drawing earlier in this thread pegs them as 7' tall.
Lord of Baal wrote:Well it's fan based, thats one thing for sure. And they really don't need to be exact how GW tells them too. Take a good look at some of the marine shots they took, they aren't really that exact or anything.
Yes, clearly there's no reason for them to be exact. The licensing manager just tells them to be "closesies".
I'd suggest you reread your post, and realize just how uninformed you sound.
So then we should consider Space Marine, the DoW games, Fire Warrior, and Chaos Gate to be canon?
Space Marine and the DoW games, yes.
Fire Warrior and Chaos Gate not so much.
Fire Warrior is in kind of a weird spot where it's "kind of/sort of", but because it was before GW really started cracking down on their licensees--it's best to just pretend it never happened.
i always thought that they were 3meters tall to equal an ork, i mean after all they were desingned to fight the agile eldar and the brute ork....
well that was my impresion
According to Blood Reaver, some of them are. You can't just throw out canon background because you don't like what it says.
The range of Space Marine height reaches at least 3 M on some occasions.
I can throw out fringe canon from a dubious and non-mainstream/acclaimed author easily. Watch me: That author has no idea what he was talking about, just like the author that wrote of Primarch Rubinek or the Iron Hearts, or the Desert Lions Legion, or the forgeworld author that wrote that a Land Raider's armor is equivalent to a Tiger II and lighter than a modern battle tank.
According to Blood Reaver, some of them are. You can't just throw out canon background because you don't like what it says.
The range of Space Marine height reaches at least 3 M on some occasions.
I can throw out fringe canon from a dubious and non-mainstream/acclaimed author easily. Watch me: That author has no idea what he was talking about, just like the author that wrote of Primarch Rubinek or the Iron Hearts, or the Desert Lions Legion, or the forgeworld author that wrote that a Land Raider's armor is equivalent to a Tiger II and lighter than a modern battle tank.
Not. Canon.
Sorry, no 10 foot space marines.
Other than y'know, Arjac Rockfist?
Seriously. "On some occasions" it's completely believable that you'll find outlier examples of Astartes being 10 feet tall. But nowhere does he say that it's the standard.
As per Jes Goodwin, Space Marines in power armour are 7 to 7.6 feet on average. This is shown on both his lifesize drawing as well as mentioned on GW's podcast #4 - where Jes actually laughs about how big some novel authors make them, joking that Marines get bigger with every book.
Authors working on licensed products are quite simply not required to stick as closely to the studio material as a lot of people tend to think.
"It all stems from the assumption that there’s a binding contract between author and reader to adhere to some nonexistent subjective construct or ‘true’ representation of the setting. There is no such contract, and no such objective truth."
- Andy Hoare on the subject of novel canonicity
Oh, and given the way "averages" work ... for every single Marine exceeding that height there will be ones that would have to be smaller than 7 feet, so be careful what you wish for.
Kanluwen wrote:
Lord of Baal wrote:Well it's fan based, thats one thing for sure. And they really don't need to be exact how GW tells them too. Take a good look at some of the marine shots they took, they aren't really that exact or anything.
Yes, clearly there's no reason for them to be exact. The licensing manager just tells them to be "closesies".
Well, the devs already publicly admitted on their own forums that the game takes place in a parallel timeline in order to explain away their 2nd Company Captain not being the guy that Codex material says. Also serves to explain the "Vengeance launcher" and other stuff they invented for the game. Who knows what else is different in that alternate reality.
As per Jes Goodwin, Space Marines in power armour are 7 to 7.6 feet on average. This is shown on both his lifesize drawing as well as mentioned on GW's podcast #4 - where Jes actually laughs about how big some novel authors make them, joking that Marines get bigger with every book.
Authors working on licensed products are quite simply not required to stick as closely to the studio material as a lot of people tend to think.
"It all stems from the assumption that there’s a binding contract between author and reader to adhere to some nonexistent subjective construct or ‘true’ representation of the setting. There is no such contract, and no such objective truth."
- Andy Hoare on the subject of novel canonicity
Oh, and given the way "averages" work ... for every single Marine exceeding that height there will be ones that would have to be smaller than 7 feet, so be careful what you wish for.
Kanluwen wrote:
Lord of Baal wrote:Well it's fan based, thats one thing for sure. And they really don't need to be exact how GW tells them too. Take a good look at some of the marine shots they took, they aren't really that exact or anything.
Yes, clearly there's no reason for them to be exact. The licensing manager just tells them to be "closesies".
Well, the devs already publicly admitted on their own forums that the game takes place in a parallel timeline in order to explain away their 2nd Company Captain not being the guy that Codex material says. Also serves to explain the "Vengeance launcher" and other stuff they invented for the game. Who knows what else is different in that alternate reality.
The Vengeance Launcher is native to that forge world. There are millions of non standard weapons in the Imperium.
Kanluwen wrote:You mean the "Vengeance" pattern Grenade Launcher, which is the only thing that does not currently exist?
My God, how dare they create something which is relatively standard in most games!
Hey, I'm not really complaining about them inventing things. Obviously GW doesn't mind, just like other licensed products got green light for this kind of stuff as well. I just find it odd that people would claimit is "canon" when it is obviously deviating from it. Though I have to say that the "alternate timeline" cop-out does sound a little lame and was not truly necessary. THQ and GW just need to learn to communicate their stance on canonicity better to the community instead of explaining their way around expectations that are based on nothing more than wishful thinking.
I have also yet to see that "mini-lascannon" in the studio material, by the way. Not that I would deem it impossible that GW would pick up the idea, mind you.
And Stalker bolters work way differently from how it is presented in that game, too.
Soladrin wrote:The Vengeance Launcher is native to that forge world.
Well, obviously it was manufactured for use by Space Marines.
Terminators are differnet.Theyare big @$$,capital @.10-12 feet would be my guess.I firmly believe in the 8ft,as this is what I have heard from every source not here.
Kanluwen wrote:No, Stalker shells work way differently from how it's presented in Space Marine.
Stalker Bolters work exactly like normal bolters do.
If "Stalker bolters" (which are really just normal boltguns equipped with a targeter and silencer) would work exactly the same as normal bolters in the game you could auto-fire.
That Stalker shells do way more damage than normal rounds is just yet another inconsistency, though I can see why they went for it. A sniper rifle makes more sense for the weapon setup of this game than a "silenced MP5", especially given that the focus lies on fast action and not on sneaking around and avoiding discovery.
Kanluwen wrote:And again with the "mini-Lascannon", despite it being in FFG/GW material...
FFG/BI, please. And no, even the RPG (which has introduced a lot of funny ideas that go against studio material) makes a clear reference to separate power packs and this weapon being crewed by two people.
Kanluwen wrote:You are a singularly irksome individual.
Thanks, you too.
Soladrin wrote:So.. has it occured to no one that this game doesn't have to take place at exact same time as the current codex's foc? Captain's die all the time.
Studio material does not leave any room between the 2nd's old Captain and the new one, there is a direct line of succession that would get broken by the game as it has to take place between 745.M41 and 999-M41 due to events mentioned in the backstory.
THQ realized this and said it just takes place in an alternate timeline. Problem solved.
Deadshot wrote:Terminators are differnet.Theyare big @$$,capital @.10-12 feet would be my guess.I firmly believe in the 8ft,as this is what I have heard from every source not here.
I've seen a picture of Magnus the Red standing next to a couple of Terminators.
Unless Magnus is like 20-24 feet tall, that seems a bit much for them IMO.
Kanluwen wrote:No, Stalker shells work way differently from how it's presented in Space Marine.
Stalker Bolters work exactly like normal bolters do.
If "Stalker bolters" (which are really just normal boltguns equipped with a targeter and silencer) would work exactly the same as normal bolters in the game you could auto-fire.
That Stalker shells do way more damage than normal rounds is just yet another inconsistency, though I can see why they went for it. A sniper rifle makes more sense for the weapon setup of this game than a "silenced MP5", especially given that the focus lies on fast action and not on sneaking around and avoiding discovery.
Suppressors are not silencers. "Muffling" the report and producing no muzzle flash is a different story.
And you can autofire the Stalker. It just doesn't have a very big clip.
Kanluwen wrote:Suppressors are not silencers. "Muffling" the report and producing no muzzle flash is a different story.
And you can autofire the Stalker. It just doesn't have a very big clip.
You can? I could have sworn I tried that in the demo, but maybe it was just an "instinctive" use of single clicks. Though the description on the game's website does say the gun is locked to semi-auto.
Guess I'll just have to play the demo again. It's not like it wasn't any fun, anyways.
I'll concede to you the difference between suppressors and silencers, though. Guess my mind was a bit closer to that "silenced MP5" than was warranted.
Deadshot wrote:Terminators are differnet.Theyare big @$$,capital @.10-12 feet would be my guess.I firmly believe in the 8ft,as this is what I have heard from every source not here.
I've seen a picture of Magnus the Red standing next to a couple of Terminators.
Unless Magnus is like 20-24 feet tall, that seems a bit much for them IMO.
He was a primarch.He amkes Termies look like dwarves,and PA look like squats.Next to humans,they arer oompa-loompas.
Kanluwen wrote:Suppressors are not silencers. "Muffling" the report and producing no muzzle flash is a different story.
And you can autofire the Stalker. It just doesn't have a very big clip.
You can? I could have sworn I tried that in the demo, but maybe it was just an "instinctive" use of single clicks. Though the description on the game's website does say the gun is locked to semi-auto.
Guess I'll just have to play the demo again. It's not like it wasn't any fun, anyways.
I'll concede to you the difference between suppressors and silencers, though. Guess my mind was a bit closer to that "silenced MP5" than was warranted.
The problem is that the Stalker round was developed exclusively for the Stalker Boltgun, and when the two are used in tandem by a Scout like Naaman or Telion, it becomes an assassin's tool.
Deadshot wrote:Terminators are differnet.Theyare big @$$,capital @.10-12 feet would be my guess.I firmly believe in the 8ft,as this is what I have heard from every source not here.
I've seen a picture of Magnus the Red standing next to a couple of Terminators.
Unless Magnus is like 20-24 feet tall, that seems a bit much for them IMO.
Pre heresy?
Anyway, Magnus is the biggest primarch, and well, a Daemonprince now, he can take any size he likes.
Void__Dragon wrote:
I've seen a picture of Magnus the Red standing next to a couple of Terminators.
Were you also aware that changing his size was one of Magnus' most used abilities in battle? It was.
And if for all the people who don't think 7 feet tall is figgen gigantic, take a couple minutes to google up pictures of Shaq standing next to humans. Go ahead, we'll wait.
Ok, now Space Marines are only a few inches taller, but 400 pounds heavier too. That's pretty gigantic.
My cousin's distant brother in connection twice removed or something,is about 7ft.My mother's third cousin's nephew or something is 6ft 9.They are pretty damn huge.
Lynata wrote:
Oh, and given the way "averages" work ... for every single Marine exceeding that height there will be ones that would have to be smaller than 7 feet, so be careful what you wish for.
Sure, if we were talking about 'averages' and 'normal' things.
Marines start at 7' and go up from there.
There have been many stories about very tall marines.
Kanluwen wrote:The problem is that the Stalker round was developed exclusively for the Stalker Boltgun, and when the two are used in tandem by a Scout like Naaman or Telion, it becomes an assassin's tool.
There really is no such thing as a special "Stalker boltgun". It's a normal off-the-mill bolter with attachments. Explained that way in the original DW Kill Team CA rules. In fact, the exact wording is "a normal bolter equipped with an M.40 targeter with auto-sense link and Stalker silenced shells".
It's not the original author's fault that other writers didn't get the idea and made a special gun out of it. *shrugs*
But yes, naturally the full potential of a Stalker round can only unfold when used in conjunction with the aforementioned attachments.
Alpharius wrote:Marines start at 7' and go up from there.
Mhm. The average starts at 7' and ends at 7'6". When there's something above it, there also has to be something below, else the average would be higher.
Of course, this "balancing" could also be done with very few Marines above that size and lots of Astartes that are just barely below it.
Alpharius wrote:There have been many stories about very tall marines.
Indeed, that's what Jes was joking about.
That said, "tall" is of course also a very relative term. Even "just" 7 feet is already massive. But we touched upon that in another thread, complete with photos of people who are that size. It's also worth pointing out that Jes stressed the importance of a Marine's general "bulkiness". For him, what makes Marines so massive isn't their height at all, it's their width.
DarknessEternal wrote:Were you also aware that changing his size was one of Magnus' most used abilities in battle? It was.
Well, he wasn't in battle in the picture.
I was also of the impression that he just mentally impressed a more imposing (Or less imposing, if interacting with humans) figure onto the minds of others, not that he literally altered his size. Though, I can't really recall if it was elaborated on.
Kanluwen wrote:The problem is that the Stalker round was developed exclusively for the Stalker Boltgun, and when the two are used in tandem by a Scout like Naaman or Telion, it becomes an assassin's tool.
There really is no such thing as a special "Stalker boltgun". It's a normal off-the-mill bolter with attachments. Explained that way in the original DW Kill Team CA rules. In fact, the exact wording is "a normal bolter equipped with an M.40 targeter with auto-sense link and Stalker silenced shells".
It's not the original author's fault that other writers didn't get the idea and made a special gun out of it. *shrugs*
But yes, naturally the full potential of a Stalker round can only unfold when used in conjunction with the aforementioned attachments.
And the Stalker has been evolved since then. It's been evolved for quite awhile, in fact.
Not sure if anyone has posted this idea yet but I think a good way at looking at their height is to look at the Spartans from Halo. They are also augmented into super humans and they also wear 'power' armor. In the cut scenes from the games the Master Chief is at least two foot taller than a marine and a lot more bulky. Just a thought.
Kanluwen wrote:And the Stalker has been evolved since then. It's been evolved for quite awhile, in fact.
I'm sure it did - in various licensed products, where Space Marines have "evolved" into being way over 8 feet in height, where Vindicare Assassins have "evolved" into being permanently attached to some Inquisitor's retinue, and where the Schola Progenium has "evolved" into discarding its gender seperation and high requirements on the purity of its staff.
Until GW adopts such evolution for their own books, it remains the various writers' own interpretation of the setting, though.
I think we all totally glossed over the fact that LoB is totally pimping out the only chick playing 40k in LA. Good work little buddy.
flota wrote:i always thought that they were 3meters tall to equal an ork, i mean after all they were desingned to fight the agile eldar and the brute ork....
well that was my impresion
I could be talking out of my ass but aren't Space Marines the product of the Unification wars, which means they were built to fight and win on Terra. I could be wrong but I remember an old marine in the First HH novel talking about stormbird operations in the Unification Wars.
According to Blood Reaver, some of them are. You can't just throw out canon background because you don't like what it says.
The range of Space Marine height reaches at least 3 M on some occasions.
I can throw out fringe canon from a dubious and non-mainstream/acclaimed author easily. Watch me: That author has no idea what he was talking about, just like the author that wrote of Primarch Rubinek or the Iron Hearts, or the Desert Lions Legion, or the forgeworld author that wrote that a Land Raider's armor is equivalent to a Tiger II and lighter than a modern battle tank.
Now just take his chest, and beef it out beyond proportion to fit all the extra organs. Next, after armoring this body, the amound of weight present is such that the boots would indeed by at LEAST 6 inches tall, so as to a.) provide prottection for the wearer, and b.) provide a suitable amount of material to disperse the weight over a larger area. Add the fact that the boots have mag-clamps and other features to prevent any sort of slipping on slick surfaces, so 6 inches is not unreasonable. Then another inch or two because of the helmet, but, morei mportantly, the powerplant/backpack would stick up over the head, thus, we have 10 feet. Plop the feller into terminaydor armorz and he gets even bigger, closer to 11 feet.
might I add that this is without these two people consuming growth hormones (that we keep feeding our chickens)?
10 feet.... I agree, its massive, but not impossible. I think we are looking at a cap of 10-11 feet armored, a minimum of 7'9" armored, with average around 8'5"
Now just take his chest, and beef it out beyond proportion to fit all the extra organs. Next, after armoring this body, the amound of weight present is such that the boots would indeed by at LEAST 6 inches tall, so as to a.) provide prottection for the wearer, and b.) provide a suitable amount of material to disperse the weight over a larger area. Add the fact that the boots have mag-clamps and other features to prevent any sort of slipping on slick surfaces, so 6 inches is not unreasonable. Then another inch or two because of the helmet, but, morei mportantly, the powerplant/backpack would stick up over the head, thus, we have 10 feet. Plop the feller into terminaydor armorz and he gets even bigger, closer to 11 feet.
might I add that this is without these two people consuming growth hormones (that we keep feeding our chickens)?
10 feet.... I agree, its massive, but not impossible. I think we are looking at a cap of 10-11 feet armored, a minimum of 7'9" armored, with average around 8'5"
Did I ever say it would be impossible to make a 10 foot space marine?
Also you think that power armor shoes add 6 inches of height? And you know terminator armor makes the wearer more hunched, so only ends up being slightly taller in total given the above head armor.
Why would you pull "hmm, probably an average around 8'5" " out of nowhere when absolutely zero supports that? How about the game designers themselves that say 7-8 feet?
According to Blood Reaver, some of them are. You can't just throw out canon background because you don't like what it says.
The range of Space Marine height reaches at least 3 M on some occasions.
I can throw out fringe canon from a dubious and non-mainstream/acclaimed author easily. Watch me: That author has no idea what he was talking about, just like the author that wrote of Primarch Rubinek or the Iron Hearts, or the Desert Lions Legion, or the forgeworld author that wrote that a Land Raider's armor is equivalent to a Tiger II and lighter than a modern battle tank.
Not. Canon.
Sorry, no 10 foot space marines.
Um... ph34r, how is Aaron Dembski-Bowden not mainstream (within the scope of 40k) or acclaimed... He's a New York Time's Best Seller...
The model's can't be relied upon, because then there would be no difference between the height of a catachan, space marine, eldar or orc. It is generally accepted that eldar are taller than humans, and that space marines are bigger than necrons (which, on model scale, necron's are techincally taller, but more hunched.), and the catachan would be a more apt analogue for a space marine by virtue of muscle size
If you want to look at the terminators, and compare the human anatomy: it just doesnt work. The entire body would have to be distended to fit inside properly. Otherwise, the wearer's elbow is in the armor's shoulder joint, and the knees are in the hips.
The old models were MUCH better in this regard, however, they have been replaced....
Another example I have is the Ultramarines series of books. One of the characters is so massive the armory had to take a damaged suit of terminator armor, hollow it out some more from the inside and repair it into a power-armor suit because it was the only thing large enough to fit that marine.
I'm also going to go there and pull the Master chief Vs. Space marine analogy. McChief is 7 feet something tall and 450 kilos, and he doesn't have any of the kind of implants a SM has. SMs have extra organs planted into their chest cavity, but there is simply no room in there. If you only make the chest more massive, you are putting heavy strain across the entire body, miraculous strength or no. So as one thing gets bigger, everything else must follow suit. If McChief can be a scalar reference, a SM would have to be 8 feet tall and weigh near 500 kilos on average
Monster Rain wrote:If Aaron Dembski-Bowden isn't considered canon by some people, I think appealing to the Proposed Rules forum is completely out of the question.
Didn't you know that all Black Library Novels are ghost written by Matt Ward.
FearPeteySodes wrote:I don't think you guys are taking gravity in effect. Obviously the original Space Marines were created at 8 feet but when you take in zero gravity that could easily make them 12 feet over several long campaigns in space.
Battle Barges have artificial gravity, so I don't know what zero-g has to do with anything at all. Plus, if they spent enough time in zero-g to affect their height, it would also affect their muscle and bone strength.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
ph34r wrote:I can throw out fringe canon from a dubious and non-mainstream/acclaimed author easily. Watch me: That author has no idea what he was talking about
If we're throwing out ADB, then we must discount everything from the Black Library. His "40K mainstream" status is on par with Ben Counter and Dan Abnett, and he's a better writer than Counter.
Alfndrate wrote:Um... ph34r, how is Aaron Dembski-Bowden not mainstream (within the scope of 40k) or acclaimed... He's a New York Time's Best Seller...
Yeah, in terms of 40k knowledge. He is not an authority on it in any way.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Omegus wrote:
ph34r wrote:I can throw out fringe canon from a dubious and non-mainstream/acclaimed author easily. Watch me: That author has no idea what he was talking about
If we're throwing out ADB, then we must discount everything from the Black Library. His "40K mainstream" status is on par with Ben Counter and Dan Abnett, and he's a better writer than Counter.
If a black library author puts something in a book that explicitly contradicts what the game designers have said, that is a goof on their part.
Do you disagree with this? Basically the only way you can think I am wrong logically is to think that black library authors are allowed to supersede and replace 40k statistics explicitly put in place by the game's designers. Which is so dumb that surely we must have some sort of misunderstanding.
Monster Rain wrote:If Aaron Dembski-Bowden isn't considered canon by some people, I think appealing to the Proposed Rules forum is completely out of the question.
If you think an author mistakenly misrepresenting a fact because he couldn't be bothered to look it up makes that mistake true, then I don't think you are quite ready for the great wide world of books.
ph34r wrote:Do you disagree with this? Basically the only way you can think I am wrong logically is to think that black library authors are allowed to supersede and replace 40k statistics explicitly put in place by the game's designers. Which is so dumb that surely we must have some sort of misunderstanding.
Game mechanics are much different than the fluff, otherwise 5 space marines would win every game.
ph34r wrote:
Monster Rain wrote:If Aaron Dembski-Bowden isn't considered canon by some people, I think appealing to the Proposed Rules forum is completely out of the question.
If you think an author mistakenly misrepresenting a fact because he couldn't be bothered to look it up makes that mistake true, then I don't think you are quite ready for the great wide world of books.
What you're doing here is attacking the source of evidence that is damning to your case, and you're doing it in a manner that is actually attacking me instead of the subject matter which is pretty poor debating form.
What you need to do is come up with something that says that BL isn't canon, and you'll be on your way.
Monster Rain wrote:To be an authority on 40k fluff, your understanding will have to take his writings into account.
Black Library authors have more credibility on the subject than some dude on the internet, unfortunately.
Too bad the fact that Jes Goodwin's authority overrides a BL author's authority has zero reliance on my having read every BL book.
Do you think it does somehow?
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Monster Rain wrote:
ph34r wrote:Do you disagree with this? Basically the only way you can think I am wrong logically is to think that black library authors are allowed to supersede and replace 40k statistics explicitly put in place by the game's designers. Which is so dumb that surely we must have some sort of misunderstanding.
Game mechanics are much different than the fluff, otherwise 5 space marines would win every game.
Monster Rain wrote:To be an authority on 40k fluff, your understanding will have to take his writings into account.
Black Library authors have more credibility on the subject than some dude on the internet, unfortunately.
Too bad the fact that Jes Goodwin's authority overrides a BL author's authority has zero reliance on my having read every BL book.
Do you think it does somehow?
Jes Goodwin, the guy who's hand-drawn picture puts a space marine at 8 feet? Whose side are you arguing?
ph34r wrote:
Monster Rain wrote:
ph34r wrote:Do you disagree with this? Basically the only way you can think I am wrong logically is to think that black library authors are allowed to supersede and replace 40k statistics explicitly put in place by the game's designers. Which is so dumb that surely we must have some sort of misunderstanding.
Game mechanics are much different than the fluff, otherwise 5 space marines would win every game.
I have never referenced game mechanics at all.
You seem confused and lost.
You said "game designers" and referenced "statistics." That implies that you are referring to game mechanics.
If I am confused, it's because you aren't being clear in the points that you're making. Keep it up with the ad hominem stuff though, it makes your position look that much weaker.
Monster Rain wrote:If Aaron Dembski-Bowden isn't considered canon by some people, I think appealing to the Proposed Rules forum is completely out of the question.
If you think an author mistakenly misrepresenting a fact because he couldn't be bothered to look it up makes that mistake true, then I don't think you are quite ready for the great wide world of books.
What you're doing here is attacking the source of evidence that is damning to your case, and you're doing it in a manner that is actually attacking me instead of the subject matter which is pretty poor debating form.
What you need to do is come up with something that says that BL isn't canon, and you'll be on your way.
If you think that everything that a Black Library writer comes up with is of the same level of Canon as the actual writers of Warhammer 40,000, then you are deluded and removed from reality, and I must remind you that you share a minority opinion on this subject. I also laugh at you because in your vision of 40k, marines bray, wield multilasers, and children destroy falcons. And there are 10 foot space marines
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Monster Rain wrote:You said "game designers" and referenced "statistics." That implies that you are referring to game mechanics.
If I am confused, it's because you aren't being clear in the points that you're making. Keep it up with the ad hominem stuff though, it makes your position look that much weaker.
No, it doesn't. The 40k universe has statistics, like space marines being 8 feet tall and not 10. This is just like how in the real world, if I say something is a statistic, I am not referring to football.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Monster Rain wrote:
ph34r wrote:
Monster Rain wrote:To be an authority on 40k fluff, your understanding will have to take his writings into account.
Black Library authors have more credibility on the subject than some dude on the internet, unfortunately.
Too bad the fact that Jes Goodwin's authority overrides a BL author's authority has zero reliance on my having read every BL book.
Do you think it does somehow?
Jes Goodwin, the guy who's hand-drawn picture puts a space marine at 8 feet? Whose side are you arguing?
You said I wasn't an authority on 40k fluff because I hadn't read the 10 foot space marine book.
I said it didn't matter because Jes Goodwin says I'm right anyway.
Yeah, there definitely are. And not just in A D-B's writing.
ph34r wrote:You said I wasn't an authority on 40k fluff because I hadn't read the 10 foot space marine book.
I said it didn't matter because Jes Goodwin says I'm right anyway.
Does that make sense to you?
Jes Goodwin actually don't say you're right. And if you haven't read certain books, then you aren't by definition an "authority" on 40k Fluff.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
ph34r wrote:No, it doesn't. The 40k universe has statistics, like space marines being 8 feet tall and not 10. This is just like how in the real world, if I say something is a statistic, I am not referring to football.
The context that we are discussing this in is a game. You know this.
Monster Rain wrote:Jes Goodwin actually don't say you're right. And if you haven't read certain books, then you aren't by definition an "authority" on 40k Fluff.
Well, there's a picture, and it is marked to 8 feet. I don't know how much more explicit you can get. I really don't care if I'm an 8 foot marine authority, because Jes has all the authority I need.
If you can find me a source on 10 foot marines that is from someone with the same level of control as Jes, then I will believe you.
***EDIT: 8 foot or 7 foot, whatever you interpret Jes's picture to mean. Just not 10 foot.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Monster Rain wrote:
ph34r wrote:No, it doesn't. The 40k universe has statistics, like space marines being 8 feet tall and not 10. This is just like how in the real world, if I say something is a statistic, I am not referring to football.
The context that we are discussing this in is a game. You know this.
If the words "game designer" and "statistics" make you forget that you are in a fluff discussion and think somehow with no other suggestion that we have shifted gear to comparing in game characteristics, then I am sorry for confusing you.s
Monster Rain wrote:Jes Goodwin actually don't say you're right. And if you haven't read certain books, then you aren't by definition an "authority" on 40k Fluff.
Well, there's a picture, and it is marked to 8 feet. I don't know how much more explicit you can get. I really don't care if I'm an 8 foot marine authority, because Jes has all the authority I need.
If you can find me a source on 10 foot marines that is from with the same level of control as Jes, then I will believe you.
I think you've completely lost track of the conversation.
No one is saying that "all" space marines are 10 feet tall. I would say, like Jes Goodwin, that the majority are somewhere in the neighborhood of 8 feet tall. You said that there "are no 10 foot tall space marines" or something similar, and you're flat out wrong based on the writings of more than one canon-recognized author.
Monster Rain wrote:No one is saying that "all" space marines are 10 feet tall. I would say, like Jes Goodwin, that the majority are somewhere in the neighborhood of 8 feet tall. You said that there "are no 10 foot tall space marines" or something similar, and you're flat out wrong based on the writings of more than one canon-recognized author.
So do you believe that all 40k fluff should be treated with equal levels of "contextually correct" judgment? All 40k fluff is equally valid in your eyes? Do authors never make mistakes?
ph34r wrote:So do you believe that all 40k fluff should be treated with equal levels of "contextually correct" judgment? All 40k fluff is equally valid in your eyes?
Do the people who make up the made up stuff in a Space Manz game have more authority than some dude on the internet?
Yes. Yes they do.
ph34r wrote:So Do authors never make mistakes?
You're grasping at straws.
If your argument depends on more than one canon author being wrong, it's time to let it go.
ph34r wrote:So do you believe that all 40k fluff should be treated with equal levels of "contextually correct" judgment? All 40k fluff is equally valid in your eyes?
Do the people who make up the made up stuff in a Space Manz game have more authority than some dude on the internet?
Yes. Yes they do.
ph34r wrote:So Do authors never make mistakes?
You're grasping at straws.
If your argument depends on more than one canon author being wrong, it's time to let it go.
I'm grasping at straws? You literally did not answer a single one of my last post's questions. If you can't come up with an answer to them that satisfies you, just concede the argument; it is becoming more and more clear that you cannot decide on this matter of validity/invalidity of fluff for yourself.
ph34r wrote:I'm grasping at straws? You literally did not answer a single one of my last post's questions. If you can't come up with an answer to them that satisfies you, just concede the argument; it is becoming more and more clear that you cannot decide on this matter of validity/invalidity of fluff for yourself.
I've made it abundantly clear. I'm not going to repeat myself to someone who isn't reading what I've posted in the first place.
ph34r wrote:I'm grasping at straws? You literally did not answer a single one of my last post's questions. If you can't come up with an answer to them that satisfies you, just concede the argument; it is becoming more and more clear that you cannot decide on this matter of validity/invalidity of fluff for yourself.
I've made it abundantly clear. I'm not going to repeat myself to someone who isn't reading what I've posted in the first place.
Ah, the classic "I'm not going to repeat myself/I don't have time to explain/If you can't find the quote in the last 5 pages I'm not going to point it out to you" internet argument fallacy. You make me smile
The old "I'm going to ignore your points and ask your inane and unrelated questions over and over again" internet argument fallacy. Classic.
If you don't know what the answers to the questions you asked are, it's because you aren't paying attention. Period. Also, I'm done being trolled. Enjoy the last word.
Nobody is fooled here. If you answered those questions you would reveal your cognitive dissonance in that you agree with me on them, yet still think me to be wrong due to non-logical reasons.
I don't think you are even fooling yourself.
I had addressed every point and question you have made, yet you cannot say the same for yourself. You failed to make your argument and you look embarrassing trying to back out with your pride intact.
But, you have clearly gone and said "there are no 10 foot space marines", and thereafter, you mentioned that you didn't rule out the odd colossal 10-foot space marine, so you are doing poorly for sticking to your own argument. [assuming of course, that you do not go back and edit what you wrote]
I have also as yet not seen you present your sources, you keep mentioning Jes Goodwin.
As far as I can tell, the only input Jes has had is as a sculptor, then take into consideration that if IG represent the average height for a human, which is apparently, 5'9 according to canon, and the models are identically sized with space marines, you can throw another wrench in with tau, which are a head shorter than the IG, yet, on average 5'5"? The models are just representations, and nothing more.
Disregarding material just because it's not "canon" is ludicrous. GW has put its seal of approval on it... Fanfiction vs. published fiction makes a huge difference, because of GW's seal of approval, either explicit, or implicit, makes anything produced by BL a source of legitimate information. the Inquisitor war trilogy is an example of literature I hate, and loathe, and as far as I can tell, GW tried to bury that thing. Sadly, it still informs our current 40k universe...
Mr. Goodwin may also at some point have a falling out with GW, or vice versa, and then, *shudder* may we be preserved if they let ward have another pass... ... but if he no longer has any input, now we will have someone else making the design choices. I don't think going by art or sculpts is a fair assessment, because its always a mm here or mm there, and suddenly were talking a different scale. I've noticed discrepancies in arm sizes as well or arm reaches based just on the pose of the arm.
I however, am taking the approach of what a space marine is supposed to be, after all those genetic enhancements, and what else he needs, and what must be done to the body to accomodate all the extra crap put into it. Canon might say one thing, but i am trying to break it down according to reason.
You want marines to have 1-inch or less armored sole-boots? Fine. I insist that every marine also suffers horrendously upon walking into a mine-field. The reason I insist on boots being 6 inches because a.) they are armored, b.1) they have activateable mag-clamps, which says to me electro-magnet, and b.2) it must be of sufficient strength to keep all estimated 500Kg of marine firmly rooted c.) some sort of anti-slip tech that also needs to be incorporated. d.) the usual hardware and stabilizers for what power armor is supposed to do. and e.) need to disperse the wight of the marine. If we accept my estimate of a marine weighing 500 kilos armored~~1100LBS, then we need to account for the marine being able to disperse the weight and avoid sinking six feet into Davin's swampy marshes. It's hard to have a horus heresy if all of the marines drowned on account of a lack of weight dispersal. And don't you go telling me that a micro-nuclear reactor powering a suit with integrated air system, communications array, IR/NVG, targeter systems and all sorts of other helmet/collar hardware, servo-skeleton and heavy armor, along with weapons and ammunition, don't add up to 300~~350 kilo....
I'm reading canon and fluff, and seeing all of the crap that goes in, then trying to find the reasonable expectation of size.
poda_t wrote:But, you have clearly gone and said "there are no 10 foot space marines", and thereafter, you mentioned that you didn't rule out the odd colossal 10-foot space marine, so you are doing poorly for sticking to your own argument. [assuming of course, that you do not go back and edit what you wrote]
I have also as yet not seen you present your sources, you keep mentioning Jes Goodwin.
As far as I can tell, the only input Jes has had is as a sculptor, then take into consideration that if IG represent the average height for a human, which is apparently, 5'9 according to canon, and the models are identically sized with space marines, you can throw another wrench in with tau, which are a head shorter than the IG, yet, on average 5'5"? The models are just representations, and nothing more.
Disregarding material just because it's not "canon" is ludicrous. GW has put its seal of approval on it... Fanfiction vs. published fiction makes a huge difference, because of GW's seal of approval, either explicit, or implicit. That makes it a valid source.
Mr. Goodwin may also at some point have a falling out with GW, or vice versa, and then, *shudder* may we be preserved if they let ward have another pass...
I however, am taking the approach of what a space marine is supposed to be, after all those genetic enhancements, and what else he needs, and what must be done to the body to accomodate all the extra crap put into it. Canon might say one thing, but i am trying to break it down according to reason.
You want marines to have 1-inch or less armored sole-boots? Fine. I insist that every marine also suffers horrendously upon walking into a mine-field. The reason I insist on boots being 6 inches because a.) they are armored, b.1) they have activateable mag-clamps, which says to me electro-magnet, and b.2) it must be of sufficient strength to keep all estimated 500Kg of marine firmly rooted c.) some sort of anti-slip tech that also needs to be incorporated. d.) the usual hardware and stabilizers for what power armor is supposed to do. and e.) need to disperse the wight of the marine. If we accept my estimate of a marine weighing 500 kilos armored~~1100LBS, then we need to account for the marine being able to disperse the weight and avoid sinking six feet into Davin's swampy marshes. It's hard to have a horus heresy if all of the marines drowned on account of a lack of weight dispersal. And don't you go telling me that a micro-nuclear reactor powering a suit with integrated air system, communications array, IR/NVG, targeter systems and all sorts of other helmet/collar hardware, servo-skeleton and heavy armor, along with weapons and ammunition, don't add up to 300~~350 kilo....
I'm reading canon and fluff, and seeing all of the crap that goes in, then trying to find the reasonable expectation of size.
A well reasoned argument, but I disagree:
If a normal marine is 7' out of armor, up to 8' in armor, how can you have a 10 foot marine? Anyone that was naturally that much larger would be a mutant or aberration, unable to survive in a society let alone be in the top 1% of people to go through the trials to become a space marine. Anyone that was transformed to be that large by the marine process would be again, a mutant or aberration, killed summarily as one that failed the transformation.
The models are not in scale in the wargame, to think so would present too many problems.
poda_t wrote:Disregarding material just because it's not "canon" is ludicrous. GW has put its seal of approval on it... Fanfiction vs. published fiction makes a huge difference, because of GW's seal of approval, either explicit, or implicit. That makes it a valid source.
Obviously the book with 10 foot marines is "canon", but only as secret chaos eldar or braying marines or kids destroying falcons with rocks or marines with multilasers everywhere. We know there is a line that must be drawn, and 10 foot marines are definitely beyond that line. There is no way for them to exist in background, and the background before their "creation" makes them impossible by definition.
poda_t wrote:The reason I insist on boots being 6 inches because a.) they are armored, b.1) they have activateable mag-clamps, which says to me electro-magnet, and b.2) it must be of sufficient strength to keep all estimated 500Kg of marine firmly rooted c.) some sort of anti-slip tech that also needs to be incorporated. d.) the usual hardware and stabilizers for what power armor is supposed to do. and e.) need to disperse the wight of the marine. If we accept my estimate of a marine weighing 500 kilos armored~~1100LBS, then we need to account for the marine being able to disperse the weight and avoid sinking six feet into Davin's swampy marshes. It's hard to have a horus heresy if all of the marines drowned on account of a lack of weight dispersal. And don't you go telling me that a micro-nuclear reactor powering a suit with integrated air system, communications array, IR/NVG, targeter systems and all sorts of other helmet/collar hardware, servo-skeleton and heavy armor, along with weapons and ammunition, don't add up to 300~~350 kilo....
a.) marines are armored all over themselves, it's called armor. b.1) magnets in 40k have no set size, in fact there exist mag-clamps in imperial navy suits which definitely are not 6 inches large. b.2) marine armor is self supporting, like full plate but even more so. c.) it's called tread/soles, they are not 6" thick, we even have them on modern day shoes. d.) this is all over the armor everywhere, and again, definitely not 6" thick e.) this has everything to do with the width of the boot and zero to do with the height, see high heels
poda_t wrote:I have also as yet not seen you present your sources, you keep mentioning Jes Goodwin.
I'm gonna chip in here as this is one of the topics that I believe to be affected by a ton of community hearsay and "false facts":
Thislifesize(!) drawing has been created by Jes for GW's Inquisitor RPG. The scale should obviously start at 1 instead of 2 (which Jes also clarifies in a later podcast), so here you have the average Space Marine in power armour ticking in at a height of seven feet.
And here you have GW's Design podcast with Jes Goodwin where he talks about this and also jokes about the silliness of oversized novel Marines.
In addition to this, I would also suggest keeping in mind that Space Marines use a certain amount of equipment that has obviously been designed for normal-sized humans, such as the Rhino APC. It would quite simply be real awkward to have Megamarines unable to board their own transports or traverse Imperial bunkers due to a needlessly exaggerated height whose only basis is some BL author's individual interpretation and artistic license, the wishful thinking of a segment of the fanbase, and some people's idea that for some reason "bigger = cooler", never mind the consequences.
poda_t wrote:Disregarding material just because it's not "canon" is ludicrous. GW has put its seal of approval on it... Fanfiction vs. published fiction makes a huge difference, because of GW's seal of approval, either explicit, or implicit, makes anything produced by BL a source of legitimate information. the Inquisitor war trilogy is an example of literature I hate, and loathe, and as far as I can tell, GW tried to bury that thing. Sadly, it still informs our current 40k universe...
Actually ... if you'd read through various statements of the people who truly work on this material, you could easily dismiss that Inquisition War trilogy that you "hate and loathe" from your perception.
poda_t wrote:
If you want to look at the terminators, and compare the human anatomy: it just doesnt work. The entire body would have to be distended to fit inside properly. Otherwise, the wearer's elbow is in the armor's shoulder joint, and the knees are in the hips.
I always assumed the arms of the marine and most of their legs are in the torso. Terminator armor is driven, not worn.
ph34r wrote:Too bad the fact that Jes Goodwin's authority overrides a BL author's authority has zero reliance on my having read every BL book.
Jes Goodwin has no more authority than a BL writer. He's a model sculptor, not a game designer. And anyway, the "real" game designers of 40K have long since left the company. Now there are just left-overs like Thorpe (blargh) and Jervis (blergh), as well as new hires in the shape of Ward, et. al. In such an environment, ADB is as "mainstream" as anyone.
Now, I also think Space Marines fall roughly in the 7-8 foot category, but that doesn't mean there can't be outliers.
ph34r wrote:Too bad the fact that Jes Goodwin's authority overrides a BL author's authority has zero reliance on my having read every BL book.
Jes Goodwin has no more authority than a BL writer. He's a model sculptor, not a game designer. And anyway, the "real" game designers of 40K have long since left the company. Now there are just left-overs like Thorpe (blargh) and Jervis (blergh), as well as new hires in the shape of Ward, et. al. In such an environment, ADB is as "mainstream" as anyone.
Considering he is in charge of everything having to do with how space marines look, I would say it is well within the realms of reasoning to say that he determined their fluff height. I am content to ignore the low research effort/low quality of writing/multilasers 40k writers, as it should be.
Omegus wrote:Now, I also think Space Marines fall roughly in the 7-8 foot category, but that doesn't mean there can't be outliers.
Space marine candidates are all outliers. They are strong, smart, tough outliers, not freakishly tall and gangly outliers that would die naturally, be executed as mutants, or be outcast for their freakishness.
To be fair, some normal humans are 4 feet tall, and some are 8 feet tall, so I think there would be plenty of change between individual Marines surely?
Yao Ming plays pro basketball and he is a 7 foot 6 Chinese guy, and they are generally shorter than Europeans.
So I dont think there is a solid answer, the best thing to say is probably just "A foot or two taller than normal people"
mattyrm wrote: To be fair, some normal humans are 4 feet tall, and some are 8 feet tall, so I think there would be plenty of change between individual Marines surely?
Yao Ming plays pro basketball and he is a 7 foot 6 Chinese guy, and they are generally shorter than Europeans.
So I dont think there is a solid answer, the best thing to say is probably just "A foot or two taller than normal people"
I'd hardly call those "normal"... and besides, what do the marines have to gain in making a Yao Ming even bigger? Space Marines have armor that does a bulk of their physical power, I feel like in gaining that much height you might even lose power, not to mention how impractical it would be for one single marine to be 2 feet higher than the others. He couldn't even fit in a drop pod or rhino.
The IoM is the most powerful and important "realm" because it is the largest, not because it is the best organised or richest.
Imperial navy ships are the best because they are the biggest. Their weapons are physically larger and more powerful than anything, which makes them better.
The IG is powerful because of numbers, not because of skill or quality.
This principle even extends to the size of the uniforms, e.g. pauldrons, coats and hats.
It's unthinkable in such a universe that the most supreme, elite superhuman supersoldiers would be only slightly taller than modern day "guards" soldiers.
Lynata wrote:Actually ... if you'd read through various statements of the people who truly work on this material, you could easily dismiss that Inquisition War trilogy that you "hate and loathe" from your perception.
First of all, let me say that I'd already read this thread thread that you link to and think that you did some pretty impressive work compiling those quotes and I thought that you had some interesting things to say there.
Here's the thing, though. To me, the main point of the whole thing was that there really is no canon, and to ignore the BL or even the Codex if you agree with it is perfectly fine. If that's the case, then since there is no binding and official canon, who is to say who is right or wrong? Particularly when it isn't said that you have to or should ignore the things that you don't like, simply that you can.
Not that it matters in the grand scheme, since we're talking about fictional things in a fictional setting.
Kilkrazy wrote:
It's unthinkable in such a universe that the most supreme, elite superhuman supersoldiers would be only slightly taller than modern day "guards" soldiers.
16 inches (the difference between 7 feet and average height) is not slightly taller.
Kilkrazy wrote:Imperial navy ships are the best because they are the biggest. Their weapons are physically larger and more powerful than anything, which makes them better.
Imperial Navy ships are vastly inferior to Necron ships, with smaller Necron ships easily able to take out larger Imperial ones.
ph34r wrote:Too bad the fact that Jes Goodwin's authority overrides a BL author's authority has zero reliance on my having read every BL book.
Jes Goodwin has no more authority than a BL writer. He's a model sculptor, not a game designer. And anyway, the "real" game designers of 40K have long since left the company. Now there are just left-overs like Thorpe (blargh) and Jervis (blergh), as well as new hires in the shape of Ward, et. al. In such an environment, ADB is as "mainstream" as anyone.
Considering he is in charge of everything having to do with how space marines look, I would say it is well within the realms of reasoning to say that he determined their fluff height. I am content to ignore the low research effort/low quality of writing/multilasers 40k writers, as it should be.
Source? He is a model sculptor, what the models look like has nothing to do with what things actually look like in the fluff, sorry. Otherwise, the average Catachan has a bigger bicep circumference than a Space Marine in full power armor.
ph34r wrote:
Omegus wrote:Now, I also think Space Marines fall roughly in the 7-8 foot category, but that doesn't mean there can't be outliers.
Space marine candidates are all outliers. They are strong, smart, tough outliers, not freakishly tall and gangly outliers that would die naturally, be executed as mutants, or be outcast for their freakishness.
The mega-tall are not space marine candidates.
Yes, all the big NFL and NBA guys who approach or even crest 7' tall are all gangly freaks that are ostracised by society at large. You're being ridiculous. In a lot of the savage societies the Space Marines recruit from, a particularly tall candidate would likely have the muscle and strength to go along with his stature and if anything, would be a stronger candidate. And then there are the variations on how the gene-seed affects each candidate. Hell, even if we just look at the gene-seed induced growth spurt as a fixed percentage:
Average male in the United States today: 5'9"
Average Space Marine: 7'6"
That's a 30.4% increase in base height.
Average center in an NBA team: 6'10" to 7'2", let's just split the difference and say 7'. Add 30.4% to that, and now you have someone over 9' tall. Take an unusually tall person like the wrestlers Ikuzuki Geitazaemon or Jorge González, or the taller basketball players like Yao Ming or George Bell, and add the same % growth to them, and you're easily approaching 10', especially if you add a few inches for armor.
Really, I don't understand why you are being so obtuse on this point. Quite a few Black Library authors have had a particularly large Space Marine character pop up in their stories. As I just demonstrated, these are all within the range of reason and do not contradict the game material. You can invoke Jes Goodwin all you want, but I don't think he'd agree with your dogmatic opinion either. Is it that you're insecure about your own height that you rage against even fictional tall people? Sorry if that last comment can be construed as ad hominem, but that's what you've been doing to Monster Rain this whole thread.
iproxtaco wrote:Terminator armour makes the wearer hunched? Source?
The models?
How is that a source? I have a Terminator right here, half assembled, there's really no way you say they're hunched over when looking at them. In fact, considering the head without a helmet is place as if his body is straight, I'd say it's a source that tells us the opposite. Saying that, the models aren't to scale, so I'd dismiss it regardless.
ph34r wrote:The mega-tall are not space marine candidates.
Yes, all the big NFL and NBA guys who approach or even crest 7' tall are all gangly freaks that are ostracised by society at large. You're being ridiculous. In a lot of the savage societies the Space Marines recruit from, a particularly tall candidate would likely have the muscle and strength to go along with his stature and if anything, would be a stronger candidate. And then there are the variations on how the gene-seed affects each candidate. Hell, even if we just look at the gene-seed induced growth spurt as a fixed percentage:
Average male in the United States today: 5'9" Average Space Marine: 7'6" That's a 30.4% increase in base height.
Average center in an NBA team: 6'10" to 7'2", let's just split the difference and say 7'. Add 30.4% to that, and now you have someone over 9' tall. Take an unusually tall person like the wrestlers Ikuzuki Geitazaemon or Jorge González, or the taller basketball players like Yao Ming or George Bell, and add the same % growth to them, and you're easily approaching 10', especially if you add a few inches for armor.
Really, I don't understand why you are being so obtuse on this point. Quite a few Black Library authors have had a particularly large Space Marine character pop up in their stories. As I just demonstrated, these are all within the range of reason and do not contradict the game material. You can invoke Jes Goodwin all you want, but I don't think he'd agree with your dogmatic opinion either. Is it that you're insecure about your own height that you rage against even fictional tall people? Sorry if that last comment can be construed as ad hominem, but that's what you've been doing to Monster Rain this whole thread.
Again, that is all well and good, as I am sure tallness did not die out in the year 40,000, but why make a ridiculously tall person into a space marine? You gain nothing, yet you lose the ability for them to board any transport, drop pod, walk through spaceship corridors, wear power armor, or be an even mildly stealthy scout. Space Marines don't have to make dunks, they do not gain worth by default for being taller and taller.
Also, you seem to forget that being tall has in fact health RISKS associated with it. Why use your super rare enhancement process on someone with a weaker than average spine? Space Marines are recruited from the best of the best, not the tallest of the tallest.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
iproxtaco wrote:
Durza wrote:
iproxtaco wrote:Terminator armour makes the wearer hunched? Source?
The models?
How is that a source? I have a Terminator right here, half assembled, there's really no way you say they're hunched over when looking at them. In fact, considering the head without a helmet is place as if his body is straight, I'd say it's a source that tells us the opposite. Saying that, the models aren't to scale, so I'd dismiss it regardless.
Maybe you are new to 40k, but it is a long standing joke about how horribly hunched over terminators are. Their shoulder joints are parallel with their heads. The new models are slightly less bad, but they are still a fair amount hunched.
ph34r wrote:Again, that is all well and good, as I am sure tallness did not die out in the year 40,000, but why make a ridiculously tall person into a space marine? You gain nothing, yet you lose the ability for them to board any transport, drop pod, walk through spaceship corridors, wear power armor, or be an even mildly stealthy scout. Space Marines don't have to make dunks, they do not gain worth by default for being taller and taller.
You gain strength, weapon reach and length of stride. The Space Marines are already far too large to be even "mildly stealthy", at that point it's all training and technology that makes them ghosts. Everything in 40K is on a massive grand scale, why would you assume that any Space Marine in power armor would be almost brushing his head on the bulkhead? It may be a little cramped for some of these guys in your average Rhino transport, but it's not like shoving Yao Ming in a Honda Civic.
Also, you seem to forget that being tall has in fact health RISKS associated with it. Why use your super rare enhancement process on someone with a weaker than average spine? Space Marines are recruited from the best of the best, not the tallest of the tallest.
Now your argument has become REALLY thin. Given the technology of the 41st millenium, not to mention the potency of the gene-seed itself, any health risks due to being taller than average (which are really only prominent when it's a hormonal imbalance/gigantism) would simply not apply. I'm pretty sure living on an irradiated planet is a pretty significant health risk, yet Blood Angels recruit among them anyway. I'm pretty sure a little hypertension is not an insurmountable obstacle.
Again, your whole argument has boiled down to "there are no tall Space Marines because I said so, and my only source is a single drawing by Goodwin that displays a frightening lack of grasp of scale."
Monster Rain wrote:Here's the thing, though. To me, the main point of the whole thing was that there really is no canon, and to ignore the BL or even the Codex if you agree with it is perfectly fine. If that's the case, then since there is no binding and official canon, who is to say who is right or wrong? Particularly when it isn't said that you have to or should ignore the things that you don't like, simply that you can.
Oh, that I can understand. Truth be told, I'm still trying to figure that out for myself - even though I would still argue that studio material would be a more reliable source if you want to stay compliant to future readings (a la "GW knows best what GW wants"), they did retcon a lot of stuff in the past and generally have a notably more "relaxed" stance on the whole issue of consistency than us "canon fanatics", which is quite ironic if you think about it.
What personally bothers me is just when some people do claim stuff like 9+ feet Marines as "canon" when GW obviously thinks differently. Maybe there is no canon - but if there is, then it is GW who makes it, not some freelancing BL author with his personal preferences.
In most cases, such claims are only the result of the numerous varying interpretations in licensed material coupled with having missed out on GW's actual stance, though, as well as community hearsay. "poster X said it and everyone agreed so it must be true!"
Omegus wrote:He is a model sculptor, what the models look like has nothing to do with what things actually look like in the fluff, sorry.
Take a wild guess why they bothered with a lifesize drawing - and a Rhino's height is still in the fluff as well. Also, Jes Goodwin is one of the very few people who have shaped the very style of the entire setting, he is not just some random sculptor. That said, if you do have any studio fluff contradicting the position of this GW designer, feel free to share. I doubt you have, though.
Honestly, listen to the podcast. Jes' explanation is quite eye-opening, I think. And not as "derogatory" to the precious Astartes as you seem to believe.
Omegus wrote:Is it that you're insecure about your own height that you rage against even fictional tall people?
Wow.
I feel tempted to point out that it would be quite easy to turn this theory around and aim that bullet at all the people so "obtusely" clinging to oversized Marines when GW designers have already said "lolno". There must be a reason for why people so desperately wish for it to be different, right?
ph34r wrote:The mega-tall are not space marine candidates.
Yes, all the big NFL and NBA guys who approach or even crest 7' tall are all gangly freaks that are ostracised by society at large. You're being ridiculous. In a lot of the savage societies the Space Marines recruit from, a particularly tall candidate would likely have the muscle and strength to go along with his stature and if anything, would be a stronger candidate. And then there are the variations on how the gene-seed affects each candidate. Hell, even if we just look at the gene-seed induced growth spurt as a fixed percentage:
Average male in the United States today: 5'9"
Average Space Marine: 7'6"
That's a 30.4% increase in base height.
Average center in an NBA team: 6'10" to 7'2", let's just split the difference and say 7'. Add 30.4% to that, and now you have someone over 9' tall. Take an unusually tall person like the wrestlers Ikuzuki Geitazaemon or Jorge González, or the taller basketball players like Yao Ming or George Bell, and add the same % growth to them, and you're easily approaching 10', especially if you add a few inches for armor.
Really, I don't understand why you are being so obtuse on this point. Quite a few Black Library authors have had a particularly large Space Marine character pop up in their stories. As I just demonstrated, these are all within the range of reason and do not contradict the game material. You can invoke Jes Goodwin all you want, but I don't think he'd agree with your dogmatic opinion either. Is it that you're insecure about your own height that you rage against even fictional tall people? Sorry if that last comment can be construed as ad hominem, but that's what you've been doing to Monster Rain this whole thread.
Again, that is all well and good, as I am sure tallness did not die out in the year 40,000, but why make a ridiculously tall person into a space marine? You gain nothing, yet you lose the ability for them to board any transport, drop pod, walk through spaceship corridors, wear power armor, or be an even mildly stealthy scout. Space Marines don't have to make dunks, they do not gain worth by default for being taller and taller.
Also, you seem to forget that being tall has in fact health RISKS associated with it. Why use your super rare enhancement process on someone with a weaker than average spine? Space Marines are recruited from the best of the best, not the tallest of the tallest.
Out of universe theoretically speaking, no, nothing really is gained with height except mass without being fat, but even then with their armour I doubt a Space Marine needs mass. It may have something to do with taller subjects being more athletic, have more muscle mass, and are generally more impressive figures. The best of the best is never going to be determined by height, but I'd still put my money on a taller candidate. Their augments increase their height, so an already tall aspirant is going to get even taller, and there's likely to be a high percentage of 'tall' applicants, hence why most Marines are silly tall.
It's more likely to do with the Hero image. What looks more impressive for a defender of humanity, a 5 8" guy in power armour, or an 8 6" guy in power armour? I prefer the latter, makes them seem more heroic.
iproxtaco wrote:
Durza wrote:
iproxtaco wrote:Terminator armour makes the wearer hunched? Source?
The models?
How is that a source? I have a Terminator right here, half assembled, there's really no way you say they're hunched over when looking at them. In fact, considering the head without a helmet is place as if his body is straight, I'd say it's a source that tells us the opposite. Saying that, the models aren't to scale, so I'd dismiss it regardless.
Maybe you are new to 40k, but it is a long standing joke about how horribly hunched over terminators are. Their shoulder joints are parallel with their heads. The new models are slightly less bad, but they are still a fair amount hunched.
New to the online community so never heard of this before. They seem hunched because of their back pack bit, but I really doubt it makes them hunched. Most sources, Soul Hunter springs to mind, say that Terminators tower over regular Marines. They aren't going to achieve that by being hunched.
Lynata wrote:I feel tempted to point out that it would be quite easy to turn this theory around and aim that bullet at all the people so "obtusely" clinging to oversized Marines when GW designers have already said "lolno". There must be a reason for why people so desperately wish for it to be different, right?
Where do they say "lolno"? They provide the average height of a Space Marine, that's it. Please provide a source of studio material that states there absolutely no taller than average Space Marines, and I'll concede the point.
Omegus wrote:Where do they say "lolno"? They provide the average height of a Space Marine, that's it. Please provide a source.
I have. The podcast I have already linked earlier. Again: LISTEN TOIT.
The fact that Jes jokes about oversized novel Marines can easily be interpreted as a gentlemanly "lol, no, that's not how it works".
Can you provide a timestamp of where they talk about it? Because this droning Brit is putting me to sleep and I'm not going to listen to 45 minutes of it.
The IoM is the most powerful and important "realm" because it is the largest, not because it is the best organised or richest.
Imperial navy ships are the best because they are the biggest. Their weapons are physically larger and more powerful than anything, which makes them better.
The IG is powerful because of numbers, not because of skill or quality.
This principle even extends to the size of the uniforms, e.g. pauldrons, coats and hats.
It's unthinkable in such a universe that the most supreme, elite superhuman supersoldiers would be only slightly taller than modern day "guards" soldiers.
Omegus wrote:Where do they say "lolno"? They provide the average height of a Space Marine, that's it. Please provide a source.
I have. The podcast I have already linked earlier. Again: LISTEN TOIT.
The fact that Jes jokes about oversized novel Marines can easily be interpreted as a gentlemanly "lol, no, that's not how it works".
Sure, but doesn't that only actually contradict the Black Library if you attribute more authority to Jes Goodwin than the BL authors?
So wait, even assuming he has such authority, that's not something that he says, but rather something you interpret as him saying? Oh boy, the Force is strong with this one.
Omegus wrote:Can you provide a timestamp of where they talk about it? Because this droning Brit is putting me to sleep and I'm not going to listen to 45 minutes of it.
Sure thing, it's at ~30:10 to 32:00.
Monster Rain wrote:Sure, but doesn't that only actually contradict the Black Library if you attribute more authority to Jes Goodwin than the BL authors?
Of course. It's not GW's fault that some Black Library writers either don't read up on the material or simply prefer their own interpretation. They have the artistic license to contradict some details, and some writers make liberal use of that because they like it better that way. I recommend reading Aaron Dembski-Bowden's blog - he has a post regarding this very topic.
Omegus wrote:So wait, even assuming he has such authority, that's not something that he says, but rather something you interpret as him saying?
Hum? If that was directed at me, he does say exactly how big Marines are. The fact that he clearly jokes about the novels exaggerating it is a "lolno" for me. Dunno how it could be interpreted otherwise.
He says, "as you read the novels, they get progressively bigger". No part of that is "easily interpreted as a lolno".
The novels we are referencing place the Space Marines in the same range as Goodwin does, but allow for the occasional anomaly. There is no contradiction here.
Omegus wrote:He says, "as you read the novels, they get progressively bigger". No part of that is "easily interpreted as a lolno".
He obviously does not agree with the novels, and he jokes about it. If you do not think this qualifies as a "haha, that's not how it works", that is your interpretation then and not something we can really argue about.
Omegus wrote:The novels we are referencing place the Space Marines in the same range as Goodwin does, but allow for the occasional anomaly. There is no contradiction here.
Then why is it that we have so many people argue that Space Marines are 9, 10 or 11 feet high? Just read the first dozen pages of this very thread. I could have sworn Abnett's Marines are frequently displayed as hitting the 3 meter mark. At least from what people claimed.
Note that I have always agreed, including in this thread, that there may be exceptions, presumably based on the Chapter's recruitment world or even their geneseed. This is why the seven feet in armour are called an average. That said, it must also be kept in mind that for every "plus" you add above the range, there must also be a "minus".
