As a force or individually? They have different styles of fighting 1v1 the custodes would likley wipe the floor with your average astartes, but squad v squad the marines are more likely to win.
Nicholas wrote:As a force or individually? They have different styles of fighting 1v1 the custodes would likley wipe the floor with your average astartes, but squad v squad the marines are more likely to win.
Nah, Custodians would wipe the floor with the marines either way, the only real difference is that the Marines would last slightly longer/put up a better fight if they were in a squad. Realize that a Custodian is to a Marine as a Marine is to a Guardsman. Even though Custodians are more able and better prepared to fight individually than a Marine does not mean that they lack ability fighting in a group, while they have a different focus they can, and do, fight together (or at least they did quite often during the Heresy).
Besides, it wouldn't make much sense that the Emperor's bodyguards be experts at holding off a lone assassin but are totally inadequate if there are TWO assassins working together...
Grey Templar wrote:Like nick said, Custodians are good one on one fighters.
but they individual warriors and can be overwhealmed. they don't fight as a group, covering each other's backs and such.
Why is that? Why are they a force focused with individual warfare instead of cooperation?
Because they are Bodyguards, not Warriors.
their purpose is to patrol the Palace and protect the Emperor's person.
While they are capable of fighting in a war and are quite proficient, they are not of the level of organization the Astartes have.
In First Heretic, some Word Bearers are observing the Custodians fighting style and find that there is something wrong with it. then they realize that its that the Custodians are not fighting together as a cohesive unit, but rather as individuals and that their style is 100% geared towards that.
'Adeptus Custodes: The Emperor's Guard or Custodians are the palace guards of the Emperor, and their duty is to protect the Imperial Palace. As the Imperial Palace covers such a large area of the planet the Custodians act as a defensive army. Only a select inner corps of three hundred, called the Companions, actually serve the Emperor as personal bodyguards.'
Grey Templar wrote:Like nick said, Custodians are good one on one fighters.
but they individual warriors and can be overwhealmed. they don't fight as a group, covering each other's backs and such.
Why is that? Why are they a force focused with individual warfare instead of cooperation?
There aren't a lot of them.
Compared to Marines and Guardsmen, no they are quite small, but the given number is anywhere from one thousand to ten thousand depending on the author. Usually the Emperor's personal guard (the Companions) is described as being 300 Custodes strong. The Companions are the ones that accompany the Emperor at all times, including his private chambers and are the actual bodyguard, while the rest of the Custodes are guards in general. Remember, the Imperial Palace is described (in Blood Games by Dan Abnett) as being larger than most cities, such a large area is going to need a lot of personnel to guard it.
Because they are Bodyguards, not Warriors.
their purpose is to patrol the Palace and protect the Emperor's person.
While they are capable of fighting in a war and are quite proficient, they are not of the level of organization the Astartes have.
In First Heretic, some Word Bearers are observing the Custodians fighting style and find that there is something wrong with it. then they realize that its that the Custodians are not fighting together as a cohesive unit, but rather as individuals and that their style is 100% geared towards that.
They also act as assassin's, politicians, spies, internal affairs officers, and envoy's/ambassadors. They are pretty much a mishmash of Delta Force/Seal Team 6, the CIA/NSA, and the Secret Service combined if you put it into real world terms. But just because they guard the palace and the Emperor doesn't mean they operate individually. Blood Games describes security details as being a handful of Custodes, usually two or three, occasionally just a strategically placed lone warrior or a larger group of four. Indeed, Blood Games leads me to believe that, if anything, they are more organized than the Astartes: "It was so telling. They were like visible moons betraying the position of an invisible planet, bright astral bodies pushed into a certain pattern by the gravitational ministrations of an unseen star. By noting where they were, and where they weren't, he could determine the location of his prey." This is after he describes the positions and displacement of his fellow Custodes, who were arranged to protect the target of the Blood Game. Whereas units of Astartes would position themselves to lay down supporting fields of fire, etc. We can only imagine what the positioning of the Custodes was for. Threats can come in various forms, a full on assault by hundreds of personnel, or a lone assassin hiding in the shadows. To mount an effective defense they would have to be prepared to handle a full spectrum of threats, which suggests much more complex posturing than just simple fields of fire. It's also worth pointing out that just because you're part of a squad doesn't mean you can't fight one-on-one. I would imagine that the Custodes being specialized in one on one combat, they would try to leverage that advantage as best as possible. I.E. they would break up the enemy formation (probably via assault) and fight through one by one.
Just going to throw it out there, Blood Games also states that there is no real difference between a Custodes and an Astartes in terms of martial skill and that it would be foolish to try to predict an outcome. Thats all well and good, but it flies in the face of most other fluff about the Custodes, including other works within the Heresy. Given the non-canonical nature of BL, you can choose what you want to believe, I choose to believe the version that has Constantin Valdor defeating Horus in one on one combat in a sparring match and wondering how long he would last against Dorn.
They're extremely well trained, but not a military fighting force.
It's basically like the Pope's Swiss Guard... both dressed fancily and highly trained military commandos (look them up), but they're not equipped for larger scale engagements
UselessSage wrote:How about a Custode vs. Grey Knight?
Custodes is stronger, but GK has 10.000 years of experience.
The experience thing is what gets me about the Custodes. Training can only go so far, right?
They would be fools if they do not insist on receiving very detailed information from all branches of the Imperium about all threats
First hand briefings and training from SM chapters, recordings, artifacts, etc.
Going back to Blood Games (assuming that its still an ongoing event post Heresy), small groups of Custodes are sent out into the galaxy to continually test the defenses of Terra and the Palace (I.E. they remove their armor and pose as normal folk (using displacer fields) and then try to sneak back into the palace and 'assassinate' the Emperor over a period of several months/years) so that they can find security lapses and fix them. Also, the Custodes are depicted in the same book as taking an active role in stopping threats, in other words, they don't wait for a threat to present itself, they monitor potential terrorists/traitors and actively try to eliminate them. Again, this is pre-Heresy era stuff, who knows if they still do it. While most sources would imply 'no' (the fact that they are 'rarely seen outside of the Palace') the fluff indicates that the Custodes are pretty damn good at blending into Imperial society/being adept spies. In Blood Games, a couple Custodes pose as businessmen in order to gain access to one of the more influential former warlords on Terra and determine his allegiance to the Emperor.
Void__Dragon wrote:The Custodes seemed to die pretty easily in A Thousand Sons, honestly.
Granted, the Thousand Sons is a Legion of powerful psykers, which kind of tips the scales a bit.
When did Valdor defeat Horus in a duel? And context plese.
I can't recall which book it was in, but it was simply a practice sparring match. It earned Valdor the respect of Leman Russ.
As for A Thousand Sons, as I recall precisely three Custodes were killed. When you consider that the book seems to present the Sisters of Silence and the Space Wolves as dieing in scores, I would say they did pretty well for themselves...
They're extremely well trained, but not a military fighting force.
It's basically like the Pope's Swiss Guard... both dressed fancily and highly trained military commandos (look them up), but they're not equipped for larger scale engagements
See, thats the part that I'm having trouble reconciling. The artwork that exists for the Custodes depicts them having access to Terminators, Contemptor Dreadnoughts, Jetbikes (as I recall these were even mentioned in A Thousand Sons), Rhinos (that seem to have anti-grav tech), and specialist weapons such as flamers. Seems like a lot of stuff that shouldn't necessarily exist for a force that isn't really meant to go about crumping heads... Then there is also the fact that the artwork and the fluff (Atlas Infernal most recently) mention that during the Crusade era the Custodes were sent into the webway to scout its paths and clear sections out for human use.
chaos0xomega wrote:I can't recall which book it was in, but it was simply a practice sparring match. It earned Valdor the respect of Leman Russ.
As for A Thousand Sons, as I recall precisely three Custodes were killed. When you consider that the book seems to present the Sisters of Silence and the Space Wolves as dieing in scores, I would say they did pretty well for themselves...
That's kind of sad, in my honest opinion.
Phosis T'kar killed four Custodes. At once. With one attack. And destroyed their jetbikes with said attack.
Hathor Maat went on to casually kill three Custodes with a single attack as well.
The only other Custodes really talked about were the ones with Leman Russ, and, well, nothing Leman Russ came across before Magnus himself showed up could impede him, being a Primarch and all.
Those casualties aside, didn't the Custodes go 5-to-1 in one particular battle on Prospero?
Brother Coa wrote:
UselessSage wrote:How about a Custode vs. Grey Knight?
Custodes is stronger, but GK has 10.000 years of experience.
Stronger how? Physically, Custodes are likely slightly stronger but insignificantly so in most cases. However this physical strength is eclipsed by a Grey Knight whenever he psychically enhances his physical strength (among other attributes).
Strength in numbers, the Custodes definitely win considering the recent retcon in GK numbers. The following numbers maybe wrong but I believe they held 10,000 Custodians in their organisation before the Heresy, 1,000 of which were Companions. Those numbers were somewhat diminished afterwards (as chaos0xomega states there are now roughly 300 Companions) and it's currently under speculation whether they were ever able to replenish their force.
This also ties in with their experience. If the current crop of Custodes are survivors of the Heresy then they'll still maintain some true battle experience. This is quite likely considering that they haven't been involved in major warfare since the Heresy.
In First Heretic, 3 Custodes get their asses handed to them by 10 posessed marines. Posessed who had been already killed by Corax and then came back to life.
Grey Templar wrote:In First Heretic, 3 Custodes get their asses handed to them by 10 posessed marines. Posessed who had been already killed by Corax and then came back to life.
That was after they killed a giant robot and a ship full of guardsmen.
Greyish wrote:Those casualties aside, didn't the Custodes go 5-to-1 in one particular battle on Prospero?
Brother Coa wrote:
UselessSage wrote:How about a Custode vs. Grey Knight?
Custodes is stronger, but GK has 10.000 years of experience.
Stronger how? Physically, Custodes are likely slightly stronger but insignificantly so in most cases. However this physical strength is eclipsed by a Grey Knight whenever he psychically enhances his physical strength (among other attributes).
Strength in numbers, the Custodes definitely win considering the recent retcon in GK numbers. The following numbers maybe wrong but I believe they held 10,000 Custodians in their organisation before the Heresy, 1,000 of which were Companions. Those numbers were somewhat diminished afterwards (as chaos0xomega states there are now roughly 300 Companions) and it's currently under speculation whether they were ever able to replenish their force.
This also ties in with their experience. If the current crop of Custodes are survivors of the Heresy then they'll still maintain some true battle experience. This is quite likely considering that they haven't been involved in major warfare since the Heresy.
Why does everyone forget about the Reign of blood?
And the Blood Games?
The Custodes have fought in lots of battles since the hersey. And their Companion numbers have dwindled only because they are chosen by the emperor to serve him. Sadly they can't be chosen if he is stuck on a chair.
Custodes would order the grey knights to stick it because this isn't their domain. And they have the power to call them traitors have them wiped out and replaced as a new grey knight order that doesn't use daemon weapons.
Grey Templar wrote:In First Heretic, 3 Custodes get their asses handed to them by 10 posessed marines. Posessed who had been already killed by Corax and then came back to life.
Close, there were eleven of the Gal Vorbak left and the Custodes still went out claiming 2-for-1 against them, with only five of the Word Bearers surviving. Not so much of a bad tally when you know your days are numbered, huh?
Asherian Command wrote:Why does everyone forget about the Reign of blood?
And the Blood Games?
The Custodes have fought in lots of battles since the heresy. And their Companion numbers have dwindled only because they are chosen by the emperor to serve him. Sadly they can't be chosen if he is stuck on a chair.
Custodes would order the grey knights to stick it because this isn't their domain. And they have the power to call them traitors have them wiped out and replaced as a new grey knight order that doesn't use daemon weapons.
Regular Blood Games hardly qualify as full-out warfare and their role in the Reign of Blood was purely diplomatic - They didn't actually fight the Brides.
As for the last part... ...well, there's more likelyhood that a Custodian and a Knight would teleport into your livingroom and perform a tango for you. While they do have unparalleled authority, calling out heretics has long since been the job of the Inquisition, leaving the Custodes to do their primary responsibility in peace. Besides, as a chapter whose development and practices were one of the last things the Emperor ordained the Grey Knights are probably one of the few imperial organisations they would least have issues with.
Grey Templar wrote:In First Heretic, 3 Custodes get their asses handed to them by 10 posessed marines. Posessed who had been already killed by Corax and then came back to life.
That was after they killed a giant robot and a ship full of guardsmen.
said robot took a custode out with it and the Guardsmen weren't hostile at that point IIRC
So far as I recall, Custodes are engineered to be more than an Astartes but less than a Primarch. This would mean that all things being equal in regards to training and gear, they would be superior to Astartes... what it really comes down to is numbers and tactics. The Astartes can call on brother chapters, diverse in strategy and tactics, whereas the Custodes presumably train and fight in a a single style, or possibly a number of styles, but their training can't possibly be as diverse as a thousand chapters of marines.
One on One, I've got to give it to the Custodes. In a civil war scenario, it all depends on what forces line up behind whom.
Magtherion_Soulsaver wrote:Exactly, In a sense, custodes are to astartes as ninja are to samurai.
Lethal training, self sufficient.
Er no.
"Ninja" are spies, assassins, and saboteurs.
To correct your comparison:
The Custodes would be samurai, while the Astartes would be spearmen.
One trains to fight in small groups, but with a focus on the individual and his contribution to the battle(the Custodes).
The other trains to fight as a coherent unit, with no emphasis on one individual over another. Each member has an important role to fulfill, and the machine breaks down if anyone's out of sync.
Magtherion_Soulsaver wrote:Exactly, In a sense, custodes are to astartes as ninja are to samurai.
Lethal training, self sufficient.
Er no.
"Ninja" are spies, assassins, and saboteurs.
To correct your comparison:
The Custodes would be samurai, while the Astartes would be spearmen.
One trains to fight in small groups, but with a focus on the individual and his contribution to the battle(the Custodes).
The other trains to fight as a coherent unit, with no emphasis on one individual over another. Each member has an important role to fulfill, and the machine breaks down if anyone's out of sync.
Ninja were also used for security. I.E. Tokugawa employing the Hattori clan. Ninja are better trained, but not meant for open war.
Grey Templar wrote:
said robot took a custode out with it and the Guardsmen weren't hostile at that point IIRC
The Guardsmen were under orders to kill the Custodes. They had difficulties doing this after the number of their bodies that ineffectively attacked just one Custode was chocking the corridors making it impossible to get to them.
orginaly only 3 custodes died in the Seige of Terra. they were being used as front line troops at that point.
considering how stong they are, the armour they wear, their psychic null-ness and their training i would say they would beat SM hands down
redkommando wrote:orginaly only 3 custodes died in the Seige of Terra. they were being used as front line troops at that point.
considering how stong they are, the armour they wear, their psychic null-ness and their training i would say they would beat SM hands down
Source? And they aren't nulls.
Custodes are a step up from a Space Marine in almost every way, but this is a small step up. They aren't anywhere close to the power of a Primarch, and they have ones major disadvantage, their individuality, which causes them to fight as individuals and not as a cohesive unit. The First Heretic has a section in which an Asartes says he wouldn't know who to bet on if a Custode and an Astartes were to fight.
Grey Templar wrote:In First Heretic, 3 Custodes get their asses handed to them by 10 posessed marines. Posessed who had been already killed by Corax and then came back to life.
The Custodes kill 3 out of 8. Admittedly they are possessed, but they don't attack in unison, so seems to be 1v1.
Spoiler:
Nirallus slays Malnor. Aquillon slays Sicar, who is feeding on Nirallus, and Sythron kills Xaphen. Argel Tal mentions that after the deaths of Malnor and Sicar there are 6 remaining Gal Vorbak.
Asherian Command wrote:
Why does everyone forget about the Reign of blood?
The Custodians didn't do much at all in the Reign of Blood, to stay pure they locked themselves away deep within the Palace, only a small group did anything and that was only to take Alicia Dominica to the Emperor.
Custodes are nothing compared to Primarchs. This one instance of Horus being beated by Valdor is the only instance of a Custodes beating a Primarch. What's the source of this anyway as I've never been able to find it. Maybe Horus knew that he would have to take a dive to get Russ on side?
DarknessEternal wrote:The custodian in the First Heretic certainly thought he was able to subdue a Primarch all on his own.
I don't think so, he certainly didn't think he could personally subdue him. They represented the authority of the Emperor and felt Lorgar would simply submit to it as before. At this point, the very idea that a Primarch would disobey the Emperor was ludicrous.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
DarknessEternal wrote:We also have one custodian in The First Heretic killing 2 captains and a chaplain in 3 swings.
This also never, ever happened. As per usual of your posts in the background section, you are just pulling stuff out of your ass.
The only time the Custodes crossed blades with the Word Bearers was at the very end. It was 3 Custodes vs. 8 Gal Vorbak. One Custodes killed one Gal Vorbak, only to get mauled by a pair. One of those stopped to feed on the body, so was easy prey for Aquillon (the Custodians' leader), who killed the Word Bearer seconds before his head and spine got torn out Predator-style. The last Custodes threw away his weapon to kill the Chaplain as a last defiant action.
DarknessEternal wrote:We also have one custodian in The First Heretic killing 2 captains and a chaplain in 3 swings.
This also never, ever happened. As per usual of your posts in the background section, you are just pulling stuff out of your ass.
The only time the Custodes crossed blades with the Word Bearers was at the very end. It was 3 Custodes vs. 8 Gal Vorbak. One Custodes killed one Gal Vorbak, only to get mauled by a pair. One of those stopped to feed on the body, so was easy prey for Aquillon (the Custodians' leader), who killed the Word Bearer seconds before his head and spine got torn out Predator-style. The last Custodes threw away his weapon to kill the Chaplain as a last defiant action.
Eternal does have it right, it happens on Cadia where Ingethel is doing her dance thing. But Vendatha only manages to kill three because no one actually expects him to commit suicide, it's him vs a Primarch and a whole bunch of marines.
First Heretic p253
Lorgar was at ease ... he actually expected his offer of truce to hold some weight
Two captains and a Chaplain isn't quite right IIRC. It was one captain, and two marines, who weren't actually fighting back. What happened to this Custode again?
iproxtaco wrote:Two captains and a Chaplain isn't quite right IIRC. It was one captain, and two marines, who weren't actually fighting back. What happened to this Custode again?
Sorry proxy, that part I don't know, personally I thought they were just normal guys and no they didn't fight back, they just were kinda I meant Eternal was right in the regard of what happened, not necessarily who was involved.
Spoiler:
They shoot him and Argel Tal gives him some orthodontic aid with his Crimson Sword, they then proceed to impale him on a spike. Good times ...
I stand corrected. Vendatha took out a Chaplain, a Captain, and a Chapter Master who were on guard in the span of three seconds. DE still has a tendency to pull stuff out of his ass though, so I'll consider this moment of lucidity on his part a fluke!
As for what happened to Vendatha, he got shot in the face, then got stabbed in the face, and still having survived this shooting+stabbing, got impaled to be the final sacrifice of their demonic ritual.
Omegus wrote:I stand corrected. Vendatha took out a Chaplain, a Captain, and a Chapter Master who were on guard in the span of three seconds.
Yeah, but I think he definitely had the element of surprise here. If they were expecting one dude to take on a whole Legion on his Billy then they probably would have anticipated him doing something insane and stupid. These Custodes are quite suicidal in their devotion to the Emperor, the whole Blood Games thing, taking on Primarchs, taking on Legions... each one is a 40k James Bond.
In First Heretic, some Word Bearers are observing the Custodians fighting style and find that there is something wrong with it. then they realize that its that the Custodians are not fighting together as a cohesive unit, but rather as individuals and that their style is 100% geared towards that.
Omegus wrote:I stand corrected. Vendatha took out a Chaplain, a Captain, and a Chapter Master who were on guard in the span of three seconds.
Yeah, but I think he definitely had the element of surprise here.
The element of surprise? He warned them that he was going to kill them, they got out their weapons, then he killed them.
How did he surprise them?
These weren't newbies on their first day. These were the best of the best of the Word Bearers and they got chumped.
Caught by surprise wasn't exactly the best term to use. They simply stood there not expecting an actual attack. Lorgar believed the Custode would back down, hence why they weren't guarding themselves.
Omegus wrote:I stand corrected. Vendatha took out a Chaplain, a Captain, and a Chapter Master who were on guard in the span of three seconds.
Yeah, but I think he definitely had the element of surprise here.
The element of surprise? He warned them that he was going to kill them, they got out their weapons, then he killed them.
How did he surprise them?
These weren't newbies on their first day. These were the best of the best of the Word Bearers and they got chumped.
Caught by surprise wasn't exactly the best term to use. They simply stood there not expecting an actual attack. Lorgar believed the Custode would back down, hence why they weren't guarding themselves.
That's on them then, for underestimating their opponent. Which is a very very stupid thing to do.
iproxtaco wrote:
Caught by surprise wasn't exactly the best term to use. They simply stood there not expecting an actual attack. Lorgar believed the Custode would back down, hence why they weren't guarding themselves.
These guys had 200 years of combat experience in the harshest battles known to the Imperium. They were the elite of space marines. Stop making excuses that aren't plausible.
iproxtaco wrote: Caught by surprise wasn't exactly the best term to use. They simply stood there not expecting an actual attack. Lorgar believed the Custode would back down, hence why they weren't guarding themselves.
These guys had 200 years of combat experience in the harshest battles known to the Imperium. They were the elite of space marines. Stop making excuses that aren't plausible.
Well that's what's in the book. They weren't on guard, whilst the Custode was, hence the Custode already had an advantage. Of course, they were outmatched by an opponent that was superior in the situation, notably, the Custode was better with he spear in the close=in environment than the Marines were, but it simply wasn't a straight up fight. As has been said though, he was subdued by coordinated bolter fire.
iproxtaco wrote:
Caught by surprise wasn't exactly the best term to use. They simply stood there not expecting an actual attack. Lorgar believed the Custode would back down, hence why they weren't guarding themselves.
These guys had 200 years of combat experience in the harshest battles known to the Imperium. They were the elite of space marines. Stop making excuses that aren't plausible.
Well that's what's in the book. They weren't on guard, whilst the Custode was, hence the Custode already had an advantage. Of course, they were outmatched by an opponent that was superior in the situation, notably, the Custode was better with he spear in the close=in environment than the Marines were, but it simply wasn't a straight up fight. As has been said though, he was subdued by coordinated bolter fire.
I have to agree with Darkness here, they were not "surprised" by any stretch of imagination. And before he jumped at them, he actually fired a burst at Lorgar (which Argel Tal knocked out of the air ninja style, somehow). So no, these high-ranking officers of the Word Bearers were on guard, they had their weapons trained on their enemy, and he gave them warning of his attack by attacking their Primarch, and he still pureed three of them in three seconds before one of them finally found the presence of mind to pull the trigger, blowing his face off.
iproxtaco wrote:
Caught by surprise wasn't exactly the best term to use. They simply stood there not expecting an actual attack. Lorgar believed the Custode would back down, hence why they weren't guarding themselves.
These guys had 200 years of combat experience in the harshest battles known to the Imperium. They were the elite of space marines. Stop making excuses that aren't plausible.
Well that's what's in the book. They weren't on guard, whilst the Custode was, hence the Custode already had an advantage. Of course, they were outmatched by an opponent that was superior in the situation, notably, the Custode was better with he spear in the close=in environment than the Marines were, but it simply wasn't a straight up fight. As has been said though, he was subdued by coordinated bolter fire.
I have to agree with Darkness here, they were not "surprised" by any stretch of imagination. And before he jumped at them, he actually fired a burst at Lorgar (which Argel Tal knocked out of the air ninja style, somehow). So no, these high-ranking officers of the Word Bearers were on guard, they had their weapons trained on their enemy, and he gave them warning of his attack by attacking their Primarch, and he still pureed three of them in three seconds before one of them finally found the presence of mind to pull the trigger, blowing his face off.
It wasn't a surprise attack, I guess they were surprised that Vendatha actually went through with it. You can still be on guard and expecting something to happen, but be surprised when it does, that's my thoughts on it anyway.
First Heretic p253
Lorgar was at ease ... he actually expected his offer of truce to hold some weight
They also weren't ordered by Lorgar to kill the Custodes, if they were then Vendatha would have been put down before he could kill anyone. Argel Tal, is a bit more of a free thinker and actually acted himself.
They are still warriors with centuries of experience, and this guy was pointing his weapon at their Primarch. Even if they didn't think he would go through with it, blasting a full-auto burst at their Primarch should have definitely put them on their toes if they weren't already. I mean, a Space Marine's reaction time is what, milliseconds? It certainly wasn't enough in this case.
Omegus wrote:They are still warriors with centuries of experience, and this guy was pointing his weapon at their Primarch. Even if they didn't think he would go through with it, blasting a full-auto burst at their Primarch should have definitely put them on their toes if they weren't already. I mean, a Space Marine's reaction time is what, milliseconds? It certainly wasn't enough in this case.
Vendatha was a ninja
Omegus wrote:Lorgar was at ease, sure, but he was also a putz.
At this time, agreed, after Istvaan he's a bit of a dude ... Corax straightens him out.
Custodes seem to be better than Astartes in personal combat. Much like say, a Callidus assassin. That doesn't mean they are as good in battle. All your fancy swordwankery isn't gonna do you any good if a space marine and nine of his buddies blow your face off with bolter fire from across no man's land.
thunderingjove wrote:What are the origins of the Custodes' geneseed?
It isn't even said that they have geneseed.
They are basically grown in test tubes with all of their genetic material created artificially.
The Astartes look down upon them for this reason. Astartes are naturally born humans that have been elevated. Custodes are nothing but artificial hunks of flesh.
Grey Templar wrote:They are basically grown in test tubes with all of their genetic material created artificially.
The Astartes look down upon them for this reason. Astartes are naturally born humans that have been elevated. Custodes are nothing but artificial hunks of flesh.
Nearly there but it's a bit mixed up. Primarch's look down upon the Custodes. Particularly when they've been sent to pry about. Hence Lorgar's sly comments. Astartes on the other hand seem to regard them as somewhat of a mystery - a new subject to analyse where possible in order to improve their own tactical knowledge. They also seem to be as left in the dark regarding the Custodians origins as we are...
Grey Templar wrote:They are basically grown in test tubes with all of their genetic material created artificially.
The Astartes look down upon them for this reason. Astartes are naturally born humans that have been elevated. Custodes are nothing but artificial hunks of flesh.
Nearly there but it's a bit mixed up. Primarch's look down upon the Custodes. Particularly when they've been sent to pry about. Hence Lorgar's sly comments. Astartes on the other hand seem to regard them as somewhat of a mystery - a new subject to analyse where possible in order to improve their own tactical knowledge. They also seem to be as left in the dark regarding the Custodians origins as we are...
Grey Templar wrote:They are basically grown in test tubes with all of their genetic material created artificially.
The Astartes look down upon them for this reason. Astartes are naturally born humans that have been elevated. Custodes are nothing but artificial hunks of flesh.
Nearly there but it's a bit mixed up. Primarch's look down upon the Custodes. Particularly when they've been sent to pry about. Hence Lorgar's sly comments. Astartes on the other hand seem to regard them as somewhat of a mystery - a new subject to analyse where possible in order to improve their own tactical knowledge. They also seem to be as left in the dark regarding the Custodians origins as we are...
meh, its the impression I got from the Astartes to Astartes to Primarch banter.
I could be wrong.
If I was a Space Marine and Custodes were indeed grown in test tubes I would look down upon them. I gave up my humanity for the Emperor, the Custode had no choice and has been programmed to be subservient. Willing followers should be superior to automatons who didn't have a choice in the matter.
Grey Templar wrote:
If I was a Space Marine and Custodes were indeed grown in test tubes I would look down upon them. I gave up my humanity for the Emperor, the Custode had no choice and has been programmed to be subservient.
Just like Space Marines look down on Primarchs for the same reason, right?
I think there's a big difference between a Primarch and a Custode, physically, spiritually, in their personalities, their mind sets, and most importantly their connection with the Space Marines. What's a Cutode to an Astartes? An inferior being, maybe not physically, but the Custodes definitely seem to be portrayed as arrogant, believing they are the chosen. Space Marines resent this as they're the foot-slogging soldiers who do the dirty work. The Primarchs are nearly Gods, and are always portrayed as kind to their Space Marines who venerate them as fathers.
That's my impression too. Especially the part about Custodian arrogance. The discussion between them in The First Heretic, wherein Nirallus states that they were his 'true sons' makes me believe they look down on the Primarchs to a certain extent too. So both camps have similar feelings of superiority regarding each other.
Greyish wrote:That's my impression too. Especially the part about Custodian arrogance. The discussion between them in The First Heretic, wherein Nirallus states that they were his 'true sons' makes me believe they look down on the Primarchs to a certain extent too. So both camps have similar feelings of superiority regarding each other.
They certainly looked down on Lorgar. At one point, while watching the ceremony where Lorgar created his elite squad (Gar Volbak or something silly like that), they bemoan having to follow "this weakling Primarch" around for 50 years.
And Valdor was one of the dill-weeds who instigated the burning of Prospero. On the other hand, they speak in very respectful tones of Dorn and Guilliman, who were always very dutiful boys. I think they basically judged them based on how useful they were to the Emperor, and nothing else. Which makes sense, I suppose.
Custodes are as physically tough and strong as a marine, however 1 on 1 in combat they are very superior (better than a captain). However as mentioned they fight as individuals an not as a cohesive unit and there are only so many of them. So to put it in "table top rules" (though no where near accurate to the fluff):
WS7 BS5 S4 T4 W1 I7 A3 Ld10 Sv2+
Companions and centurions would be better than this.
A good chunk of Thousand Sons that died on Prospero did so when their own powers went out of control/they exploded/that titan exploded. Until then, they were schooling Custodians, Silent Sisters and Space Wolves by the dozen.
Custodes are as physically tough and strong as a marine, however 1 on 1 in combat they are very superior (better than a captain). However as mentioned they fight as individuals an not as a cohesive unit and there are only so many of them. So to put it in "table top rules" (though no where near accurate to the fluff):
WS7 BS5 S4 T4 W1 I7 A3 Ld10 Sv2+
Companions and centurions would be better than this.
...And I take it MEQ players are to use 'movie marines' rules when playing against these. :p
Something else to keep in mind was that during the Great Crusade the space marines were more mass produced. Their gear was standardised and rushed out to try and keep up with the orders and they were created in great numbers to continue the Crusade.
The analogy i think of is that space marines were production cars, produced on a line, all good, but none great. Whereas the Custodes were more like super cars (sorry, been watching a bit of top gear), individually crafted as well as their equipment tailored for themselves and made of the best components.
Custodes weren't so much super-marines as marines crafted with care and the best of everything (including possibly the emperor's gene seed).
I would think that 1 on 1 a Custodes is superior to a normal marine, with only the exceptional leaders capable of matching a custodes. In a full scale battle or for a war, the space marines would be superior. Simply because that is what they are for. Winning wars.
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Greyish wrote:
vodo40k wrote:My opinion:
Custodes are as physically tough and strong as a marine, however 1 on 1 in combat they are very superior (better than a captain). However as mentioned they fight as individuals an not as a cohesive unit and there are only so many of them. So to put it in "table top rules" (though no where near accurate to the fluff):
WS7 BS5 S4 T4 W1 I7 A3 Ld10 Sv2+
Companions and centurions would be better than this.
...And I take it MEQ players are to use 'movie marines' rules when playing against these. :p
maybe just dial it down to a space marine captain ish stats 5 5 4 4 5 2 10 3+ then add their superior wargear to differentiate them from space marines.
Omegus wrote:5 wounds, initiative 2? What are they, Orks?
yep they are killing machines. lol. probably more like nurgling bases.
i got scared id get in trouble for putting in stats. anyway. something like space marine captains (ws 5 bs 5 i 5, otherwise the same) but with better wargear.
Have the Custodes we've met so far just be rather exceptional ones though? I would agree with ChaosGalvatron that a Custodes would roughly be the equivalent to maybe a sergeant.
Whilst the Astartes are off fighting Xenos the Custodes are there polishing the Emperors shiny bits.
Valdor!
Yes, my Lord?
... you missed a spot.
The Rogue Trader rulebook from 1987 had a statline for the custodes actually it was
M:4 WS:5 BS:5 S:4 T:4 W:2 I:5 A:2 LD:8
Which is more or less inline with a champion of the era:
Custodes are as physically tough and strong as a marine, however 1 on 1 in combat they are very superior (better than a captain). However as mentioned they fight as individuals an not as a cohesive unit and there are only so many of them. So to put it in "table top rules" (though no where near accurate to the fluff):
WS7 BS5 S4 T4 W1 I7 A3 Ld10 Sv2+
Companions and centurions would be better than this.
...And I take it MEQ players are to use 'movie marines' rules when playing against these. :p
No a "movie marine" custode would be more like this:
Pilau Rice wrote:Have the Custodes we've met so far just be rather exceptional ones though? I would agree with ChaosGalvatron that a Custodes would roughly be the equivalent to maybe a sergeant.
According to their author the one's in the First Heretic are quite exceptional, or at least Vendatha is. However, he never backed this notion up in the actual novel. You'll have to track him down online for more on that. As it's never stated it's not hard to see why people get the wrong end of the stick and feel that all Custodes are on par with these guys, but imo it would be an incorrect assumption to make. With a bit of an update to 5E, the Rogue Trader rules could be a viable template. I'd also recommend the set at Tempus Fugitives for roles like the Companions.
Pilau Rice wrote:Have the Custodes we've met so far just be rather exceptional ones though? I would agree with ChaosGalvatron that a Custodes would roughly be the equivalent to maybe a sergeant.
According to their author the one's in the First Heretic are quite exceptional, or at least Vendatha is. However, he never backed this notion up in the actual novel. You'll have to track him down online for more on that. As it's never stated it's not hard to see why people get the wrong end of the stick and feel that all Custodes are on par with these guys, but imo it would be an incorrect assumption to make. With a bit of an update to 5E, the Rogue Trader rules could be a viable template. I'd also recommend the set at Tempus Fugitives for roles like the Companions.
Omegus wrote:A good chunk of Thousand Sons that died on Prospero did so when their own powers went out of control/they exploded/that titan exploded. Until then, they were schooling Custodians, Silent Sisters and Space Wolves by the dozen.
completly agree, i was refering to certain part in collected visions (page 241)
you got to admit that with 30 individuals were able to take down 200 entrenched marines its a feat on its own
im2randomghgh wrote:Custodians are so far above and beyond marines, that a comparison is just dumb.
IIRC didn't you argue that Custodes are almost equal to Primarchs, or superior to Space Marines like Space Marines are to Imperial Guard. Then everybody promptly proved you wrong...
Ultimately, Custodes are typically slightly above Astartes in ability it seems, but not to a particularly significant level, they are different but so similar at the same time. As it said in one of the HH novels "Generally, custodes were larger and more powerful than Astartes, but the differences were only noticeably significant in a few specific cases. No one would be foolish enough to predict the outcome of a contest between an Astartes and a custodes.", this was shown when they were slightly outclassed by Possessed for example IMHO.
Vendatha was clearly a skilled Custodian, ADB said so himself. I think he'd like Lucius is to his fellow Astartes in exceptionally skilled in martial combat.
Half of you guys are just making gak up. Im halfway through the first heretic, and I did 100 pages today!
Custodes ARE harder than SM, it says so right there in black and white. They don't fight as cohesively, they are individual warriors not soldiers, but they are AMAZING warriors. Argel Tal is amazed by how tough they are. He is sat stunned watching one "killing and killing and killing"
And people say the same thing about Space Marines, and Space Marines can say the same thing about other Space Marines too.
Custodians are better than the ordinary Astartes, but they're not to particularly big level IMO. I'd imagine them to be similar or just above a Veteran Space Marine in terms of ability.
mattyrm wrote:Half of you guys are just making gak up. Im halfway through the first heretic, and I did 100 pages today!
Custodes ARE harder than SM, it says so right there in black and white. They don't fight as cohesively, they are individual warriors not soldiers, but they are AMAZING warriors. Argel Tal is amazed by how tough they are. He is sat stunned watching one "killing and killing and killing"
That's pretty much exactly what it says.
Have you missed something? Maybe, the thread? I think we're all in agreement that Custodes are exceptional, but they aren't "Like the Astartes are to the Imperial Guard, the Cutodes are to the Astartes". They're Sergeants and Captains, and that's just the standard. Individually they're the best, but they're outmatched by Astartes in a real war, but not in the sparring cages.
Don't swear please, and actually detail the "made up stuff" if you believe some stuff is hyperbole and conjecture.
Just Dave wrote: I'd imagine them to be similar or just above a Veteran Space Marine in terms of ability.
Tal is a veteran, and he is in awe of how good a warrior the custodes he is watching is. Its also him who makes the analogy and says "let the wolves fight alongside the lions"
Id say that's a pretty good analogy from him. A Lion could kill 5 or 6 wolves, but a pack will pull it apart. Id say a tactical squad could take one out with a couple of losses.
Just Dave wrote: I'd imagine them to be similar or just above a Veteran Space Marine in terms of ability.
Tal is a veteran, and he is in awe of how good a warrior the custodes he is watching is. Its also him who makes the analogy and says "let the wolves fight alongside the lions"
Id say that's a pretty good analogy from him. A Lion could kill 5 or 6 wolves, but a pack will pull it apart. Id say a tactical squad could take one out with a couple of losses.
In awe? When is he in awe? He pities them for not having the camaraderie that he has with his brothers, that the Custodes are weaker because of this. He's perhaps in awe of their skill with a blade, but again, we're pretty much in agreement that it's where the Custodes are superior. On the battlefield, they'd be outmatched by the Astartes.
If I miraculously bypass the swear filter, you can whinge at me, until then I reserve the right to fething swear.
Put me on your ignore list If you cant deal with fictional swear words from the 40k universe.
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iproxtaco wrote:
mattyrm wrote:
Just Dave wrote: I'd imagine them to be similar or just above a Veteran Space Marine in terms of ability.
Tal is a veteran, and he is in awe of how good a warrior the custodes he is watching is. Its also him who makes the analogy and says "let the wolves fight alongside the lions"
Id say that's a pretty good analogy from him. A Lion could kill 5 or 6 wolves, but a pack will pull it apart. Id say a tactical squad could take one out with a couple of losses.
In awe? When is he in awe? He pities them for not having the camaraderie that he has with his brothers, that the Custodes are weaker because of this. He's perhaps in awe of their skill with a blade, but again, we're pretty much in agreement that it's where the Custodes are superior. On the battlefield, they'd be outmatched by the Astartes.
Oh and its (Page 128 on my Kindle)
"The custodes leader was oblivious as he led the advance, his conic helm crested with a plume of red horsehair. In his hands, an immense two handed sword spun in blurring arcs, rising and falling, stabbing and carving. People tumbled away from him, all of them falling to pieces in his wake. He killed and killed and killed, never missing a lethal strike, never slowing in his advance. "Aquillon" said Argel Tal from his vantage point. He shook his head as he spoke the name. Unfeigned awe softened his voice. "Ive never seen a custodian fight"
AWE. Unfeigned awe, the same type you should have for me because I just schooled you.
Kind of. In 40K (rather than 30K when the Custodes were active), they don't wear armour, so you could say that...
mattyrm wrote:
iproxtaco wrote:
Don't swear please
Since when is gak swearing?
If I miraculously bypass the swear filter, you can whinge at me, until then I reserve the right to fething swear.
Put me on your ignore list If you cant deal with fictional swear words from the 40k universe.
To be fair, I agree Gak isn't swearing and nor is it something to be offended by, nonetheless there's no real need.
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iproxtaco wrote:
mattyrm wrote:
Just Dave wrote: I'd imagine them to be similar or just above a Veteran Space Marine in terms of ability.
Tal is a veteran, and he is in awe of how good a warrior the custodes he is watching is. Its also him who makes the analogy and says "let the wolves fight alongside the lions"
Id say that's a pretty good analogy from him. A Lion could kill 5 or 6 wolves, but a pack will pull it apart. Id say a tactical squad could take one out with a couple of losses.
In awe? When is he in awe? He pities them for not having the camaraderie that he has with his brothers, that the Custodes are weaker because of this. He's perhaps in awe of their skill with a blade, but again, we're pretty much in agreement that it's where the Custodes are superior. On the battlefield, they'd be outmatched by the Astartes.
Oh and its (Page 128 on my Kindle)
"The custodes leader was oblivious as he led the advance, his conic helm crested with a plume of red horsehair. In his hands, an immense two handed sword spun in blurring arcs, rising and falling, stabbing and carving. People tumbled away from him, all of them falling to pieces in his wake. He killed and killed and killed, never missing a lethal strike, never slowing in his advance. "Aquillon" said Argel Tal from his vantage point. He shook his head as he spoke the name. Unfeigned awe softened his voice. "Ive never seen a custodian fight"
AWE. Unfeigned awe, the same type you should have for me because I just schooled you.
Go and read the book.
I'd imagine he's read the book tbh, all of it, but that's speculation.
Nonetheless, whilst yes, he does express awe, that can be explained due to how he'd never seen a custodian fight; slightly similar to when people 1st witness Astartes fight.
The same book however demonstrates how only a minor amount of daemonic possession is needed for an astartes to match this veteran custodian, who (as I said) would otherwise be slightly superior. I think most people agree, in close combat a Custodian is superior, because he's trained for it, Space Marines are trained to excel in all areas rather than just one.
A HH novel also states, as I quoted, how it'd be foolish to put money on a combat between an astartes and custodian.
Astartes and Custodes go through a very similar process, albeit with notable differences. The end result is that Custodians are slightly physically superior to an astartes, superior in one-to-one and close combat, but not as balanced in their abilities or unity as a squad.
Awe and similar emotions have been shown by astartes when they've seen certain other astartes fight, such as witnessing Space Wolves or World Eaters.
Background in 40K is mutable and open to interpretation; very few things is concrete and custodes are part of this. However, it's been repeatedly stated that Custodes are marginally superior to an astartes (as I said), but not to a major extent. Background in the HH series has only supported this, within A Thousand Sons, Tales of Heresy, First Heretic etc.
Omegus wrote:A good chunk of Thousand Sons that died on Prospero did so when their own powers went out of control/they exploded/that titan exploded. Until then, they were schooling Custodians, Silent Sisters and Space Wolves by the dozen.
completly agree, i was refering to certain part in collected visions (page 241)
you got to admit that with 30 individuals were able to take down 200 entrenched marines its a feat on its own
Collected Visions has multiple contradictions with the HH books, so I don't know how valid it is. There was nothing "entrenched" about the Thousand Sons, some of them were in their skivvies when the attack started.
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im2randomghgh wrote:Custodians are so far above and beyond marines, that a comparison is just dumb.
Your level of fanwank is disturbing.
mattyrm wrote:Half of you guys are just making gak up. Im halfway through the first heretic, and I did 100 pages today!
Custodes ARE harder than SM, it says so right there in black and white. They don't fight as cohesively, they are individual warriors not soldiers, but they are AMAZING warriors. Argel Tal is amazed by how tough they are. He is sat stunned watching one "killing and killing and killing"
That's pretty much exactly what it says.
Someone here posted a link where the AUTHOR of the novel in question says that they were exceptional examples (which makes sense, I suppose, since they were sent to babysit a Primarch who was severely out of favor).
Omegus wrote:Someone here posted a link where the AUTHOR of the novel in question says that they were exceptional examples (which makes sense, I suppose, since they were sent to babysit a Primarch who was severely out of favor).
Oh and that conversation got better. I'm an advocate of both the Custodians and the Grey Knights, not one with contemptuous bias for just one side. So it's always woth keeping tabs when a BL author gets in a the subject too. He went on to dismiss the idea that Custodes are definitely superior to GKs, as often perpetuated on these online forums and even favoured the GKs (at least in 40k setting). Considering BL authors sit in on discussions with the GW creative honchos and then uses these meetings to assist their writing - as this one no doubt has been doing with his upcoming GK novel - I can only believe that there's some validity behind his claims. He at least holds more authority on the matter than any forum-troll who just assumes gold = better.
Besides, don't they know platinum smites gold?
I'd be inclined to go with Greyish's view (Thanks for the link, by the way - very informative.), and to emphasise that Custodes' and Astartes' relative capabilities are very inconsistently portrayed in the Horus Heresy series. Arguing interminably about the question seems as such rather futile.
So far as written rules go - and they are the only directly comparable measurement to which we have access - according to their profile in Rogue Trader, the Custodes are not only significantly better than Astartes (particularly considering the latter had only T3 at the time), but with two wounds and two attacks a Custodian would still be substantially more powerful than even a Veteran Marine of the period (or strictly, of a year or so later when the rules for Terminators were written).
mattyrm wrote:Unfeigned awe softened his voice. "Ive never seen a custodian fight"
AWE. Unfeigned awe, the same type you should have for me because I just schooled you.
Go and read the book.
Yes, awe because he had never seen a Custodes fight before, like the awe a mortal might have at meeting a Primarch. If you then read further on Argel Tal then goes on to explain how their fighting style is flawed.
But you would know that wouldn't you as you've read the book
Omegus wrote:
English Assassin wrote:Arguing interminably about the question seems as such rather futile..
Where would the internet be without futile, interminable arguments?
Forums would be rather boring and pointless places if everyone agreed all the time as well. Are Custodes the awesomest? Yes! Are Grey Knights the awesomest? Yes! Which chapter is the bestest? Yes.. um I mean .. er ...
Omegus wrote:Someone here posted a link where the AUTHOR of the novel in question says that they were exceptional examples (which makes sense, I suppose, since they were sent to babysit a Primarch who was severely out of favor).
Oh and that conversation got better. I'm an advocate of both the Custodians and the Grey Knights, not one with contemptuous bias for just one side. So it's always woth keeping tabs when a BL author gets in a the subject too. He went on to dismiss the idea that Custodes are definitely superior to GKs, as often perpetuated on these online forums and even favoured the GKs (at least in 40k setting). Considering BL authors sit in on discussions with the GW creative honchos and then uses these meetings to assist their writing - as this one no doubt has been doing with his upcoming GK novel - I can only believe that there's some validity behind his claims. He at least holds more authority on the matter than any forum-troll who just assumes gold = better.
Besides, don't they know platinum smites gold?
I'd imagine it's more a case of one-on-one, Custodes would again have the upper hand as a result of their martial prowess, but Grey Knights have considerable psychic ability, force weapons and unity which would give them the upper hand IMHO.
Wouldn't the Custodes vary more in combat skill and style than astartes. Marines are basically mirrors of each other because of their shared geneseed. All the marines with a certain geneseed would have similar fighting styles and strengths with slight differences. Custodes being born in test tubes would not be so similar, making it possible for larger differences between skill level. It would explain the inconsistency in the HH series.
Grey Templar wrote:In First Heretic, 3 Custodes get their asses handed to them by 10 posessed marines. Posessed who had been already killed by Corax and then came back to life.
Yeah but thats only 3 ever fallen, loads of astartes and GK have fallen but only 3 Custodes...
Grey Templar wrote:In First Heretic, 3 Custodes get their asses handed to them by 10 posessed marines. Posessed who had been already killed by Corax and then came back to life.
Yeah but thats only 3 ever fallen, loads of astartes and GK have fallen but only 3 Custodes...
Only three. Aside from those other two that were part of their squad, the forty five or so other Custodes that accompanied the Word Bearers, the ones that have died defending the Emperor over the course of the Great Crusade, the ones that died on Prospero, the ones that died defending the Webway gate beneath the Golden Throne, and the ones that died defending the Emperor's Palace during the siege.
Grey Templar wrote:In First Heretic, 3 Custodes get their asses handed to them by 10 posessed marines. Posessed who had been already killed by Corax and then came back to life.
Yeah but thats only 3 ever fallen, loads of astartes and GK have fallen but only 3 Custodes...
Only three. Aside from those other two that were part of their squad, the forty five or so other Custodes that accompanied the Word Bearers, the ones that have died defending the Emperor over the course of the Great Crusade, the ones that died on Prospero, the ones that died defending the Webway gate beneath the Golden Throne, and the ones that died defending the Emperor's Palace during the siege.
Grey Templar wrote:In First Heretic, 3 Custodes get their asses handed to them by 10 posessed marines. Posessed who had been already killed by Corax and then came back to life.
Yeah but thats only 3 ever fallen, loads of astartes and GK have fallen but only 3 Custodes...
Are you saying only three Custodes have ever fallen in battle?
<text redacted; Omegus would like to indicate his disbelief in a manner compliant with Dakka's posting rules --Janthkin>
I'm talking about the word you used before you went and replaced it.
Fiction.
What word did I replace?
The swear filter stops actual swearing.
You basically insulted me "OMG! read the thread much lol" kinda thing, then attempted to pretend you were offended by the word gak, like some sort of bizarre passive aggressive, that smiles all the time and says please and thank you alot while he is mugging you, but complains to the police if you dare to fight back.
You were rude, then you got schooled, just suck it up and deal with it like a man.
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Pilau Rice wrote:
Yes, awe because he had never seen a Custodes fight before, like the awe a mortal might have at meeting a Primarch. If you then read further on Argel Tal then goes on to explain how their fighting style is flawed.
But you would know that wouldn't you as you've read the book
Obviously, because its three sentences after the text that I sat and typed in.
Could a mortal fight a Primarch? Tal says they look "wrong" despite how impressive they fight, and soon realises that the flaw is that they don't fight cohesively, they are warriors, not soldiers. It doesn't mean he thinks they aren't amazing fighters. Tal actually calls them "Lions" and the word bearers "Wolves"
Can a Wolf fight a Lion on it's own?
As I said, Im not massively into fanboi fights over fiction, I just find it annoying that people can read the same book and come to ridiculously different opinions when it is right there in black and white. This gak were reading ain't Ulysses.
Quite clearly an individual custodes is tougher than an individual Space Marine, every single aspect of the book points that way, the Space Marines great strength comes from their enhanced bodies, but mainly from their brothers, from the pack, just like a wolf.
So clearly, a group of SM could beat a custode's, but one on one a custode's would easily beat a SM right? We are singing off the same song sheet surely?
If you didn't get that from the book, then you really cant have read the book properly.
I'm talking about the word you used before you went and replaced it.
Fiction.
What word did I replace?
The swear filter stops actual swearing.
You basically insulted me "OMG! read the thread much lol" kinda thing, then attempted to pretend you were offended by the word gak, like some sort of bizarre passive aggressive, that smiles all the time and says please and thank you alot while he is mugging you, but complains to the police if you dare to fight back.
You were rude, then you got schooled, just suck it up and deal with it like a man.
Well I cant say it obviously, but I know what was there before any edits or filters changed. I just find it odd that you swoop in after three pages, say people are making stuff up, but then don't actually add anything at all besides repeating something what has already been said a few times in this and another thread by other people.
Custodes wipe the floor with Space Marines in single combat.
Argel Tal, only gets the upper hand in a sparring match when he is possessed.
As for the Possessed Word Bearers;
The Gal Vorbak are almost wiped out by Corax, only a few remain, they do not come back to life. The remaining Gal Vorbak then kill off the last custodes accompanying the legion.
Spoiler:
The custode that had taken the vow of silence hurls his glaive and essentially voids the torso of Chaplain Xaphen. I don't think a space marine can do that.
Hurl a spear into another marines chest? Yes I think they can. Remember that its not just the Custodes strength that allowed him to do that. His weapon is a Guardian Spear. It can already cut through Power Armour like it was butter.
Neither do I. Maybe because there's no reason for it to be? Seriously, there's quite a large amount of Space Marine hate and how mary-sue they are sometimes.
Medium of Death wrote:I don't know why this section of dakka isn't called 'Rub one out to Space Marine fluff'.
I don't know why it's not called 'manipulate the background to suit your own perspective' personally...
Medium of Death wrote:Custodes wipe the floor with Space Marines in single combat.
Argel Tal, only gets the upper hand in a sparring match when he is possessed.
As for the Possessed Word Bearers;
The Gal Vorbak are almost wiped out by Corax, only a few remain, they do not come back to life. The remaining Gal Vorbak then kill off the last custodes accompanying the legion.
Argel Tal's possession hadn't really manifested at that point; there was a significant difference between the level Argel Tal was at when he equalled Aquillion and the level of possession a normal Possessed SM or the Gal Vorbak displayed at the end.
I was disappointed with the apparent ease the Gal Vorbak displayed at taking down the Custodes, suggesting the quite distinct superiority of possession over Custodian-status...
Medium of Death wrote:I don't think a marine could throw a glaive with such accuracy.
Fast moving possessed hit square in the chest.
Well, if a Space Wolf, albeit an unusually strong Space Wolf, can accurately throw a Thunder Hammer, so I don't see why they could not accurately throw a glaive. Unless their glaives are much heavier than I assume they are.
im2randomghgh wrote:Custodians are so far above and beyond marines, that a comparison is just dumb.
IIRC didn't you argue that Custodes are almost equal to Primarchs, or superior to Space Marines like Space Marines are to Imperial Guard. Then everybody promptly proved you wrong...
Ultimately, Custodes are typically slightly above Astartes in ability it seems, but not to a particularly significant level, they are different but so similar at the same time. As it said in one of the HH novels "Generally, custodes were larger and more powerful than Astartes, but the differences were only noticeably significant in a few specific cases. No one would be foolish enough to predict the outcome of a contest between an Astartes and a custodes.", this was shown when they were slightly outclassed by Possessed for example IMHO.
Vendatha was clearly a skilled Custodian, ADB said so himself. I think he'd like Lucius is to his fellow Astartes in exceptionally skilled in martial combat.
No, they didn't...Their response was something along the lines of "Hurr durr plot armour. Hurr Durr Your example is canon but mine is my opinion so it's right".
Don't get me wrong, everyone has the right to their own opinion, and I am not saying that mine is worth more, I am simply defending mine with canonical fluff, whereas many *cough* MelissiaIproxtaco *cough* were simply saying "No that's dumb I'm right".
As to your quote, the sources on this are too enormously variable to get a definitive answer (Get used to it, that's how GW rolls), so quoting one individual source means fairly little.
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Just Dave wrote:
Medium of Death wrote:I don't know why this section of dakka isn't called 'Rub one out to Space Marine fluff'.
I don't know why it's not called 'manipulate the background to suit your own perspective' personally...
Medium of Death wrote:Custodes wipe the floor with Space Marines in single combat.
Argel Tal, only gets the upper hand in a sparring match when he is possessed.
As for the Possessed Word Bearers;
The Gal Vorbak are almost wiped out by Corax, only a few remain, they do not come back to life. The remaining Gal Vorbak then kill off the last custodes accompanying the legion.
Argel Tal's possession hadn't really manifested at that point; there was a significant difference between the level Argel Tal was at when he equalled Aquillion and the level of possession a normal Possessed SM or the Gal Vorbak displayed at the end.
I was disappointed with the apparent ease the Gal Vorbak displayed at taking down the Custodes, suggesting the quite distinct superiority of possession over Custodian-status...
Did you forget the part were the Gal Vorbak outnumber the custodes 4 to one and took heavier losses?
Medium of Death wrote:I don't know why this section of dakka isn't called 'Rub one out to Space Marine fluff'.
Same reason it's not called "Rub one out to Custodes fantasies"?
Automatically Appended Next Post:
im2randomghgh wrote:Did you forget the part were the Gal Vorbak outnumber the custodes 4 to one and took heavier losses?
Don't make up garbage that has already been dismissed earlier in this thread, it makes you look stupid and/or trollish.
There were 8 Possessed vs 3 Custodes, and the Custodes killed three of them before they all died (the last casualty the Custodes inflicted was a surprise suicide attack). It basically goes, Custodes kills a Possessed before being chomped to death by another, the Possessed then stops to feed on the corpse and gets skewered by Aquillon (the leader), right before Argel Tal rips out his skull/spine Predator-style. Then the last guy chucked his spear at an on-rushing Possessed moments before getting torn to shreds.
Medium of Death wrote:I don't know why this section of dakka isn't called 'Rub one out to Space Marine fluff'.
Same reason it's not called "Rub one out to Custodes fantasies"?
Automatically Appended Next Post:
im2randomghgh wrote:Did you forget the part were the Gal Vorbak outnumber the custodes 4 to one and took heavier losses?
Don't make up garbage that has already been dismissed earlier in this thread, it makes you look stupid and/or trollish.
There were 8 Possessed vs 3 Custodes, and the Custodes killed three of them before they all died (the last casualty the Custodes inflicted was a surprise suicide attack). It basically goes, Custodes kills a Possessed before being chomped to death by another, the Possessed then stops to feed on the corpse and gets skewered by Aquillon (the leader), right before Argel Tal rips out his skull/spine Predator-style. Then the last guy chucked his spear at an on-rushing Possessed moments before getting torn to shreds. [/quote
There were 11 Gal Vorbak, 7 survived. Against 3 custodes.
Just Dave wrote:And people say the same thing about Space Marines, and Space Marines can say the same thing about other Space Marines too.
Custodians are better than the ordinary Astartes, but they're not to particularly big level IMO. I'd imagine them to be similar or just above a Veteran Space Marine in terms of ability.
Veterans have a few hundred years of experience, custodes have 13,000 years experience.
I wish you guy's would start stating book, page #, paragraph and line's for these quotes, dramatizations or comments if they are true other wise its just ego throwing. Something like this...
Lexicanum.com wrote:The Custodes are slightly larger and stronger than Space Marines.
It's under Appearance and equipment section 2, paragraph 1, line 1.
Now it says this quote is in Blood Games page 29. So if I have that book which I don't then I can go find it... I just think its silly you guys are arguing stuff without even saying a page, paragraph, line number. I know you guy's are serious cause your that worked up about it... =///////////////// It would make the argument more physical and less substantial for everyone. Not to mention less frustration. Sure there are going to be individuals that are of great quality in any group.
I think a lot of people have read material on stuff I just think its hard to remember were exactly that section or occurrence of things happens. Thats when things are made up. Though we should be realistic about it and say well I remember it happening like this. Though I forget were it happens if that's the case. Then again I don't think anyone is willing to put there foot down on: Book, page, paragraph, line number.... on this forum unless its dire maybe. Its just tedious I know, but it helps prevent beckering and hotheaded arguments. =////// [Sarcasm] So why not just argue our points into oblivion cause we are selves are always right. Whatever I think is true is true and that how it is... [/sarcasm]
Viridian wrote: I wish you guy's would start stating book, page #, paragraph and line's for these quotes, dramatizations or comments if they are true other wise its just ego throwing. Something like this...
Lexicanum.com wrote:The Custodes are slightly larger and stronger than Space Marines.
It's under Appearance and equipment section 2, paragraph 1, line 1.
Now it says this quote is in Blood Games page 29. So if I have that book which I don't then I can go find it... I just think its silly you guys are arguing stuff without even saying a page, paragraph, line number. I know you guy's are serious cause your that worked up about it... =///////////////// It would make the argument more physical and less substantial for everyone. Not to mention less frustration. Sure there are going to be individuals that are of great quality in any group.
That and the quote regarding "only a fool would place money on who'd be the victor of such a fight" (not the exact quote, but you know) is the main thing I'm basing my opinion off personally.
Regarding Page Numbers, a lot of people would probably find it too much effort, whilst I at least am unable to as (apart from the 2 Prospero-based novels) my HH series is in a different city to where I am atm. I would also find it too much effort to be fair too!
im2randomghgh wrote:
Just Dave wrote:And people say the same thing about Space Marines, and Space Marines can say the same thing about other Space Marines too.
Custodians are better than the ordinary Astartes, but they're not to particularly big level IMO. I'd imagine them to be similar or just above a Veteran Space Marine in terms of ability.
Veterans have a few hundred years of experience, custodes have 13,000 years experience.
Yes, but modern Custodes haven't been in active combat for several thousand years, whilst heresy-era custodes would be a very similar age - and with likely less battlefield experience - to the Space Marines.
im2randomghgh wrote:
Just Dave wrote:
im2randomghgh wrote:Custodians are so far above and beyond marines, that a comparison is just dumb.
IIRC didn't you argue that Custodes are almost equal to Primarchs, or superior to Space Marines like Space Marines are to Imperial Guard. Then everybody promptly proved you wrong...
Ultimately, Custodes are typically slightly above Astartes in ability it seems, but not to a particularly significant level, they are different but so similar at the same time. As it said in one of the HH novels "Generally, custodes were larger and more powerful than Astartes, but the differences were only noticeably significant in a few specific cases. No one would be foolish enough to predict the outcome of a contest between an Astartes and a custodes.", this was shown when they were slightly outclassed by Possessed for example IMHO.
Vendatha was clearly a skilled Custodian, ADB said so himself. I think he'd like Lucius is to his fellow Astartes in exceptionally skilled in martial combat.
No, they didn't...Their response was something along the lines of "Hurr durr plot armour. Hurr Durr Your example is canon but mine is my opinion so it's right".
"Also, as I already meantioned, it has been stated that Custodes are to Astartes what Astartes are to Guardsmen, and while GK ARE a cut above astartes, Custodes are only very,very slightly weaker than Primarchs. Do you think a Librarian could kill a primarch? No. "
"There is no conceivable way in which Valdor would be dead. He survived the HH, the Custodes haven't been in active combat since then, and they are immortal. What possible way could you suspect he died? Especially considering he was more powerful the Horus, which means that Valdor surpassed the primarchs, which means the only mortal in the galaxy who could beat him in one-on-one would be the EoM."
Personally, I have never seen any evidence that either of the above statements are correct. How many Custodes have died? A lot. How many Primarchs have died? 5 confirmed.
A Thousand Sons describes how a Custodes dies from his jetbike crashing or as a result of their Sorcery. First Heretic describes a Custode being inferior to a possessed (Argel Tal), whilst also describing a Primarch (Corax) being far superior to the same possessed.
As to your quote, the sources on this are too enormously variable to get a definitive answer (Get used to it, that's how GW rolls), so quoting one individual source means fairly little.
I said that earlier, which means you can only get the rough idea of how powerful a custode is or isn't compared to an astartes. Nonetheless, it doesn't mean that A) some people should read and then believe inaccurate statements and B) inaccurate statements should be made. IMHO.
I agree though, everyone is entitled to their opinion, I'd just rather they were accurate.
We will never know how they would fare against astartes 100 on 100 or 5,000 on 5,000. They are intended to defend the imperial palace, anything that enters the palace that means damage will simply die, that's all we need to know, they may not have the thousands of specialities the space marine chapters have, they have 1, to defend the emperor's body against any and all enemies.
They're an army themselves, we just don't know much about them, if we did then they would be severely weakened, the custodians are as diverse as any space marine chapter, I think the last defence for the emperor would have thought to plan for any type of attack.
I doubt the custodians are stupid. They practice individuality whilst astartes practice teamwork but that is because they are important, loyal and powerful enough to do this, this is a bonus to teamwork, they are good enough to choose their individual role to benefit the rest, the only reason astartes practice teamwork is because they lack the wisdom to choose their own role in the squad themselves, they are told, a custodian will identify a weakness and train to combat it, they don't need telling.
So, the custodians are produced artificially in a test tube. It is in the nature of space marines to have traits of their primarch and respect and idol their primarch, sometimes more than the emperor, the Horus heresy tells us that so of course the custodes don't have one. It's not a weakness, their only leader is the emperor, the lords of terra or the inquisition wouldn't even dare to control them, if they weren't artificial then their DNA would be impure, they must be fully rounded, something no single space marine is. Even Kaldor Draigo should look up to them, he only has one purpose, combatting daemons.
Most of the above is personal opinion and conjecture. We KNOW they are flawed and don't work together, there's no advantage there, Marines are superior for their ability to work as a team. Amazing individual warriors that easily outstrip the regular line soldier in close quarters, but they're bodyguards and warriors, not soldiers.
Just regarding the 'test tube custode babies' theory. Is it just another intenet-borne thoery or does it have actual merit in the fluff? In keeping with the collection of Custodes info I have I'd be grateful for an actual source to back up future discussions...
Viridian wrote: I wish you guy's would start stating book, page #, paragraph and line's for these quotes, dramatizations or comments if they are true other wise its just ego throwing. Something like this...
Etc, etc...
Unfortunately, that quote on Lexicanum is an example of a fan handpicking part of a quote, while discarding the rest. It brings the whole thing out of context. Here's the full quote:
Blood Games by Dan Abnett wrote:"Generally, the custodes were larger and more powerful than astartes, but the differences were only noticably significant in a few specific cases. No one would be foolish enough to predict the outcome of a contest between an astartes and a custodes"
Moral of the story: Even though it's cleaned up its act, Lexicanum should not be quoted unless you've verified the complete source. It's still prone to errors and writer's bias. Still, at least it's better that W40k wiki, which would have earned harsh derision...
im2randomghgh wrote:Did you forget the part were the Gal Vorbak outnumber the custodes 4 to one and took heavier losses?
Omegus wrote:Don't make up garbage that has already been dismissed earlier in this thread, it makes you look stupid and/or trollish.
There were 8 Possessed vs 3 Custodes, and the Custodes killed three of them before they all died (the last casualty the Custodes inflicted was a surprise suicide attack). It basically goes, Custodes kills a Possessed before being chomped to death by another, the Possessed then stops to feed on the corpse and gets skewered by Aquillon (the leader), right before Argel Tal rips out his skull/spine Predator-style. Then the last guy chucked his spear at an on-rushing Possessed moments before getting torn to shreds.
There were 11 Gal Vorbak, 7 survived. Against 3 custodes.
Have you read the book?
Obviously you haven't.
Spoiler:
And then, the first kill.
Nirallus. The blade master. He killed Malnor, and that left himvulnerable. Torgal and Sicar had leapt onto the Custodian's back. Chop, chop, chop went the hacking blades,biting into armour joints at the back of the neck and thebase of the spine. A life for a life. Nirallus fell. Torgal leaped away, to safety. Sicar stayed to feed, and earned death himself. Aquillon. The Occuli Imperator. He avenged his brother's slaughter by ending Sicar a heartbeatlater with clean, bright sweeps of his sword. Argel Tal was on himin that moment. He remembered the leap, and the soreness in his throat ashe roared once more. He remembered the juicy, meaty crunch as theCustodian's head ripped free of its neck. Like a flopping serpent, Aquillon's spine hung down from the dripping helm. A dizzying stench of blood; a maddened laugh that may or may not have been Argel Tal at all. He never knew for certain.
Six of the Gal Vorbak still drew breath. Six possessed warriors gave their desert dog cackles and ran for the last Custodes with daemonic vigour burning in their limbs. And this was the last moment Argel Tal could ever recall, until the air was cold again and it was all over. Sythran pulled his helm free, and faced them bare headed. Instead of waiting with his halberd in hand, he hurled it as a spear.
Let's see, two have died, and six are remaining. 6 + 2 = 8. Hurrdurr basic arithmetic, something you fail at harder than Abaddon's crusades.
Then again, considering how seamlessly you shifted from "they were outnumbered 4:1 and still slaughtered them" to "there were 11 vs 3 and killed four", I'm convinced you're actually in this thread to just troll. Although considering that you keep propagating the myth that Valdor was more powerful than Horus and that the remaining Custodes are basically mini-Primarchs, you could just be seriously deluded.
iproxtaco wrote:Most of the above is personal opinion and conjecture. We KNOW they are flawed and don't work together, there's no advantage there, Marines are superior for their ability to work as a team. Amazing individual warriors that easily outstrip the regular line soldier in close quarters, but they're bodyguards and warriors, not soldiers.
It is not a flaw, it is nothing like a flaw. They each perform their role, whereas astartes are (not literally) more like the line troops of the 17/18 century.
A custode works with his squad mates, but doesn't depend on them.
Also, earlier in this thread someone said that even heresy-era custodes had less combat experience than heresy-era astartes, which is wrong. They fought the unification war, and during the heresy were sent on missions by the emperor, rather than simply guarding him.
Greyish wrote: Moral of the story: Even though it's cleaned up its act, Lexicanum should not be quoted unless you've verified the complete source. It's still prone to errors and writer's bias. Still, at least it's better that W40k wiki, which would have earned harsh derision...
I gave a complete source vi quotation Lexicanum.com as my source because I do not own the book as stated. Does the quotation not say Lexicanum.com? Does it not Greyish? In fact you didn't even list page, paragraph and line # of that in your post you are no better then Lex by your own opinion other then the authenticity of verbatim(Which I trust you.) but don't pick on me when I gave a complete quote from a source section paragraph and line number in dead honesty. Egotistical throw backs... like this thread are the reason lex has enough problems verifying were people get there quotations when people are so brass to not take the time to authenticate a quote in its entirety as you did. People are so lazy they think there opinion is fact pure and simple. If you want to say its a quote fine list the source I don't care were its from but list it as best you can and as honest as you can. Sure there are a lot of quotations that are 'source: book x' off lex which are frustrating. I agree they should do a better job at refining it and make it a requirement for book and page number at the least if they aren't going to go Verbatim. But to decline Lex as good source is purely Lunicidal(yes I'm making sh!t up now) ... What is the number one thing people say on this forum if people want to learn 40k fluff?
So it is one of if not they most widely used sources, sure I'll say it needs work definitely I agree with you its notation keeping is horrible at times which is why I gave that quotation book and page number. It's still a source and I'm giving it... also linking its sources that are linked too it which was fairly easy Blood Games page 29. You probably took that and looked up the quotation you found to support your argument did you not? If you did... I find it funny you say lex is a bad source after using the actual source value from lex to find the information. Far as writer's bias ANYTHING is writer's bias I can decline to accept the facts listed in any book on the object of argument just as you are able to decline the fact as Lex as a source. If I'm a writer and I write the fact that the guys in gold can smack a halberd on the ground and kill 1000 marines and it gets printed and has gamesworkshop / BL on it then its fact then? and just as Just Dave was arguing with im2randomghgh.
im2randomghgh wrote:As to your quote, the sources on this are too enormously variable to get a definitive answer (Get used to it, that's how GW rolls), so quoting one individual source means fairly little.
Just Dave wrote:I said that earlier, which means you can only get the rough idea of how powerful a custode is or isn't compared to an astartes. Nonetheless, it doesn't mean that A) some people should read and then believe inaccurate statements and B) inaccurate statements should be made. IMHO.
I agree though, everyone is entitled to their opinion, I'd just rather they were accurate.
Now... I totally support both people for opposite reasons in this argument. I think im2randomghgh has a right to have his opinion on whatever it is and were ever he got it though its definitely wrong and inaccurate to just be stating things without proof or backup of quotations from some where decently reliable. The pure laziness / opinionization(made it up deal with it) of people when it comes to fluff fights is ridiculous. You guy's pretty much only give a direct Verbatim quote when it suits your fancy or its easy assessable. Truth is only told when someone gives the best information they can give and how / were they got it. Which I did. If you want to decline the use of lex as a source that's your business and I have no idea why consider the whole fact of were people go to read 40k fluff collectively and sadly knowing how school is with wiki's is why I gave the information I did.
The only reason I posted that first post was the fact that this whole thread needs to get cleaned up directly seriously. I get tired of reading inaccurate things on here specifically on this thread when people DO NOT list book page #. Verbatim I don't care I'll listen to your opinion and think it over as long as you give me the source of your opinion I have more faith in you. I have better faith in you. I think that's pretty nice of me... Considering how im2randomghgh believes that primarch's are less then a Custode is beyond craziness but I have one question that would make this thread a bit more interesting....
Why would the Emperor allow stronger more able beings wander the universe susceptible too corruption and allow them the ability if corrupted to storm threw his personal guard(hersey redurex)?
It make's no sense its suicidal... and if anything was learned from the heresy it has to be you cannot trust Astarte's completely. There has to be the strength in there to at least delay a level of assault of some magnitude by marines. I would think he would have a chapter or two of marines around to call in quick to earth. But how good are Custode's I don't know but I would think they could hold off tell help arrives at the least... Unless you guys that support the marine side of this really believe that yeah okay a whole company is corrupted without knowledge and is totally set to go back to earth and lay wake into the palace break it and kill the emperor yeah that sounds kinda off. Nothing is 100% I don't even believe 100% in the fact people are crazy about un-corruptable Grey Knights. Those that do then you support Matt Ward? Seriously? If I'm the Emperor my mind tells me believe but do not trust. Be able to repel them at least be able to enforce my position threw other means. Now if someone would like to clarify this quote that I hope I do not get slapped for with some lame witty remark cause I got information off Lexicanum again and again I'll give this a proper damn look threw as some people would call it. When I am decently trying to be accurate and truthful with information while admitting that it is shady at least I give all my source values of the original tome of interest...
Lexicanum.com wrote:Equipment which was characteristic of the Custodes would influence the equipment of the later Grey Knights. After the confinement of the Emperor within the Golden Throne, the Custodes abandoned, among other things, the use of their armour...
It's under History section 3, paragraph 3, line 2.
This is said to be in Horus Heresy: Collected Visions, pg. 28-29 (And yeah again thats the most information lex has no paragraph or line numbers)can anyone verify verbatim?
Greyish wrote: Moral of the story: Even though it's cleaned up its act, Lexicanum should not be quoted unless you've verified the complete source. It's still prone to errors and writer's bias. Still, at least it's better that W40k wiki, which would have earned harsh derision...
I gave a complete source vi quotation Lexicanum.com as my source because I do not own the book as stated. Does the quotation not say Lexicanum.com? Does it not Greyish? In fact you didn't even list page, paragraph and line # of that in your post you are no better then Lex by your own opinion other then the authenticity of verbatim(Which I trust you.) but don't pick on me when I gave a complete quote from a source section paragraph and line number in dead honesty. Egotistical throw backs... like this thread are the reason lex has enough problems verifying were people get there quotations when people are so brass to not take the time to authenticate a quote in its entirety as you did. People are so lazy they think there opinion is fact pure and simple. If you want to say its a quote fine list the source I don't care were its from but list it as best you can and as honest as you can. Sure there are a lot of quotations that are 'source: book x' off lex which are frustrating. I agree they should do a better job at refining it and make it a requirement for book and page number at the least if they aren't going to go Verbatim. But to decline Lex as good source is purely Lunicidal(yes I'm making sh!t up now) ... What is the number one thing people say on this forum if people want to learn 40k fluff?
So it is one of if not they most widely used sources, sure I'll say it needs work definitely I agree with you its notation keeping is horrible at times which is why I gave that quotation book and page number. It's still a source and I'm giving it... also linking its sources that are linked too it which was fairly easy Blood Games page 29. You probably took that and looked up the quotation you found to support your argument did you not? If you did... I find it funny you say lex is a bad source after using the actual source value from lex to find the information. Far as writer's bias ANYTHING is writer's bias I can decline to accept the facts listed in any book on the object of argument just as you are able to decline the fact as Lex as a source. If I'm a writer and I write the fact that the guys in gold can smack a halberd on the ground and kill 1000 marines and it gets printed and has gamesworkshop / BL on it then its fact then? and just as Just Dave was arguing with im2randomghgh.
im2randomghgh wrote:As to your quote, the sources on this are too enormously variable to get a definitive answer (Get used to it, that's how GW rolls), so quoting one individual source means fairly little.
Just Dave wrote:I said that earlier, which means you can only get the rough idea of how powerful a custode is or isn't compared to an astartes. Nonetheless, it doesn't mean that A) some people should read and then believe inaccurate statements and B) inaccurate statements should be made. IMHO.
I agree though, everyone is entitled to their opinion, I'd just rather they were accurate.
Now... I totally support both people for opposite reasons in this argument. I think im2randomghgh has a right to have his opinion on whatever it is and were ever he got it though its definitely wrong and inaccurate to just be stating things without proof or backup of quotations from some where decently reliable. The pure laziness / opinionization(made it up deal with it) of people when it comes to fluff fights is ridiculous. You guy's pretty much only give a direct Verbatim quote when it suits your fancy or its easy assessable. Truth is only told when someone gives the best information they can give and how / were they got it. Which I did. If you want to decline the use of lex as a source that's your business and I have no idea why consider the whole fact of were people go to read 40k fluff collectively and sadly knowing how school is with wiki's is why I gave the information I did.
The only reason I posted that first post was the fact that this whole thread needs to get cleaned up directly seriously. I get tired of reading inaccurate things on here specifically on this thread when people DO NOT list book page #. Verbatim I don't care I'll listen to your opinion and think it over as long as you give me the source of your opinion I have more faith in you. I have better faith in you. I think that's pretty nice of me... Considering how im2randomghgh believes that primarch's are less then a Custode is beyond craziness but I have one question that would make this thread a bit more interesting....
Why would the Emperor allow stronger more able beings wander the universe susceptible too corruption and allow them the ability if corrupted to storm threw his personal guard(hersey redurex)?
It make's no sense its suicidal... and if anything was learned from the heresy it has to be you cannot trust Astarte's completely. There has to be the strength in there to at least delay a level of assault of some magnitude by marines. I would think he would have a chapter or two of marines around to call in quick to earth. But how good are Custode's I don't know but I would think they could hold off tell help arrives at the least... Unless you guys that support the marine side of this really believe that yeah okay a whole company is corrupted without knowledge and is totally set to go back to earth and lay wake into the palace break it and kill the emperor yeah that sounds kinda off. Nothing is 100% I don't even believe 100% in the fact people are crazy about un-corruptable Grey Knights. Those that do then you support Matt Ward? Seriously? If I'm the Emperor my mind tells me believe but do not trust. Be able to repel them at least be able to enforce my position threw other means. Now if someone would like to clarify this quote that I hope I do not get slapped for with some lame witty remark cause I got information off Lexicanum again and again I'll give this a proper damn look threw as some people would call it. When I am decently trying to be accurate and truthful with information while admitting that it is shady at least I give all my source values of the original tome of interest...
Lexicanum.com wrote:Equipment which was characteristic of the Custodes would influence the equipment of the later Grey Knights. After the confinement of the Emperor within the Golden Throne, the Custodes abandoned, among other things, the use of their armour...
It's under History section 3, paragraph 3, line 2.
This is said to be in Horus Heresy: Collected Visions, pg. 28-29 (And yeah again thats the most information lex has no paragraph or line numbers)can anyone verify verbatim?
-Sincerely Viri
I would just like to clarify that i do NOT think standard custodes are better than primarchs, i am saying that Valdor, the greatest custode and a former high lord of terra, beat one primarch once. Comparing him to a standard custode would be like comparing a stormtrooper to a conscript. My point in mentioning it was to point out that primarchs are not infallible, primarchs who are basically just better versions of astartes. The fact that a custode was the one to beat Horus just happened to be good luck. It proved that custodes are physiologically capable of achieving feats that astartes are simply not capable of attaining.
Also, Macharius was said to be a tactician rivaling if not exceeding the primarchs, and he was unaugmented. Unless his sainthood WASN'T posthumous, I am a bit fuzzy on that point.
agrees by and large with my outlook, though it is neutral enough that it is simply stating facts. If the authors could only sit down and talk before contradicting each other...
iproxtaco wrote:Most of the above is personal opinion and conjecture. We KNOW they are flawed and don't work together, there's no advantage there, Marines are superior for their ability to work as a team. Amazing individual warriors that easily outstrip the regular line soldier in close quarters, but they're bodyguards and warriors, not soldiers.
It is not a flaw, it is nothing like a flaw. They each perform their role, whereas astartes are (not literally) more like the line troops of the 17/18 century.
A custode works with his squad mates, but doesn't depend on them.
Also, earlier in this thread someone said that even heresy-era custodes had less combat experience than heresy-era astartes, which is wrong. They fought the unification war, and during the heresy were sent on missions by the emperor, rather than simply guarding him.
You're really trying to turn this into an advantage? Where on earth do get this crap from? The First Heretic quite plainly makes out that Custodes are flawed for their inability to work together like Astartes. They do not work together, they do not work as a cohesive unit. Each one fights his own private battle, separate from his brothers, there's way you can swing this. They are flawed, deal with it.
I think it's fairly obvious that part of the wiki page, which does not cite sources for most of it, was written by more than one person. It skips from sound reasoning, giving sources like the first paragraph, to random hyperbole the next.
im2randomghgh wrote:I would just like to clarify that i do NOT think standard custodes are better than primarchs, i am saying that Valdor, the greatest custode and a former high lord of terra, beat one primarch once. Comparing him to a standard custode would be like comparing a stormtrooper to a conscript. My point in mentioning it was to point out that primarchs are not infallible, primarchs who are basically just better versions of astartes. The fact that a custode was the one to beat Horus just happened to be good luck. It proved that custodes are physiologically capable of achieving feats that astartes are simply not capable of attaining.
You went quite a bit further than saying "Valdor, the greatest custode and a former high lord of terra, beat one primarch once"/"The fact that a custode was the one to beat Horus just happened to be good luck". You said "Especially considering he was more powerful the Horus, which means that Valdor surpassed the primarchs, which means the only mortal in the galaxy who could beat him in one-on-one would be the EoM."
More powerful/surpassed the primarchs/only beaten by the Emperor is a lot more than 'lucky' or beaten once as you now claim...
im2randomghgh wrote:Also, earlier in this thread someone said that even heresy-era custodes had less combat experience than heresy-era astartes, which is wrong. They fought the unification war, and during the heresy were sent on missions by the emperor, rather than simply guarding him.
That was me and I said "with likely less battlefield experience", by which I mean that Astartes have likely spent more time in the battlefield than custodes. I'm aware Custodes do more than Guarding the Big E, but that is still their main role, whilst they were not used as an out-and-out army like the Astartes were - although the Custodes were sometimes used in such a way, it wasn't nearly as often.
Some astartes also fought in the unification wars, as well as being at the forefront of the great crusade.
I never stated it as fact, it's just any differences in experience between most Custodes and Astartes at the time were IMHO likely to be insignificant.
Void__Dragon wrote:Wait a minute, the quote you gave me about Valdor beating Horus was from a wiki?
Bad form.
And once more, Custodes were shown being killed in droves by a powerful Thousand Sons sorcerer. They are not Primarchs, not even close.
No, the original Valdor v Horus thing was, I am fairly sure, from a white dwarf. Obviously I don't remember which issue, so the only other source that seemed to acknowledge the canonicity of WD was quoted by me.
And in which book are main characters NOT given rediculously huge boosts in power compared to what would make sense? It is called PLOT ARMOUR.
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Just Dave wrote:
im2randomghgh wrote:I would just like to clarify that i do NOT think standard custodes are better than primarchs, i am saying that Valdor, the greatest custode and a former high lord of terra, beat one primarch once. Comparing him to a standard custode would be like comparing a stormtrooper to a conscript. My point in mentioning it was to point out that primarchs are not infallible, primarchs who are basically just better versions of astartes. The fact that a custode was the one to beat Horus just happened to be good luck. It proved that custodes are physiologically capable of achieving feats that astartes are simply not capable of attaining.
You went quite a bit further than saying "Valdor, the greatest custode and a former high lord of terra, beat one primarch once"/"The fact that a custode was the one to beat Horus just happened to be good luck". You said "Especially considering he was more powerful the Horus, which means that Valdor surpassed the primarchs, which means the only mortal in the galaxy who could beat him in one-on-one would be the EoM."
More powerful/surpassed the primarchs/only beaten by the Emperor is a lot more than 'lucky' or beaten once as you now claim...
im2randomghgh wrote:Also, earlier in this thread someone said that even heresy-era custodes had less combat experience than heresy-era astartes, which is wrong. They fought the unification war, and during the heresy were sent on missions by the emperor, rather than simply guarding him.
That was me and I said "with likely less battlefield experience", by which I mean that Astartes have likely spent more time in the battlefield than custodes. I'm aware Custodes do more than Guarding the Big E, but that is still their main role, whilst they were not used as an out-and-out army like the Astartes were - although the Custodes were sometimes used in such a way, it wasn't nearly as often.
Some astartes also fought in the unification wars, as well as being at the forefront of the great crusade.
I never stated it as fact, it's just any differences in experience between most Custodes and Astartes at the time were IMHO likely to be insignificant.
Astartes did NOT fight in the unification wars, as the primarchs hadn't even been incubated yet.
And the beginning of the crusade featured the Emperor and his custodes pwning everything. Like Ullanor.
Void__Dragon wrote:Wait a minute, the quote you gave me about Valdor beating Horus was from a wiki?
Bad form.
And once more, Custodes were shown being killed in droves by a powerful Thousand Sons sorcerer. They are not Primarchs, not even close.
No, the original Valdor v Horus thing was, I am fairly sure, from a white dwarf. Obviously I don't remember which issue, so the only other source that seemed to acknowledge the canonicity of WD was quoted by me.
And in which book are main characters NOT given rediculously huge boosts in power compared to what would make sense? It is called PLOT ARMOUR.
Make believe until you provide a quote from the source.
Their planet was being torn apart, they were being destroyed, they unleashed their full power and suffered for it. The Custodes are so far from Primarchs it's funny.
Just Dave wrote:
im2randomghgh wrote:I would just like to clarify that i do NOT think standard custodes are better than primarchs, i am saying that Valdor, the greatest custode and a former high lord of terra, beat one primarch once. Comparing him to a standard custode would be like comparing a stormtrooper to a conscript. My point in mentioning it was to point out that primarchs are not infallible, primarchs who are basically just better versions of astartes. The fact that a custode was the one to beat Horus just happened to be good luck. It proved that custodes are physiologically capable of achieving feats that astartes are simply not capable of attaining.
You went quite a bit further than saying "Valdor, the greatest custode and a former high lord of terra, beat one primarch once"/"The fact that a custode was the one to beat Horus just happened to be good luck". You said "Especially considering he was more powerful the Horus, which means that Valdor surpassed the primarchs, which means the only mortal in the galaxy who could beat him in one-on-one would be the EoM."
More powerful/surpassed the primarchs/only beaten by the Emperor is a lot more than 'lucky' or beaten once as you now claim...
im2randomghgh wrote:Also, earlier in this thread someone said that even heresy-era custodes had less combat experience than heresy-era astartes, which is wrong. They fought the unification war, and during the heresy were sent on missions by the emperor, rather than simply guarding him.
That was me and I said "with likely less battlefield experience", by which I mean that Astartes have likely spent more time in the battlefield than custodes. I'm aware Custodes do more than Guarding the Big E, but that is still their main role, whilst they were not used as an out-and-out army like the Astartes were - although the Custodes were sometimes used in such a way, it wasn't nearly as often.
Some astartes also fought in the unification wars, as well as being at the forefront of the great crusade.
I never stated it as fact, it's just any differences in experience between most Custodes and Astartes at the time were IMHO likely to be insignificant.
Astartes did NOT fight in the unification wars, as the primarchs hadn't even been incubated yet.
And the beginning of the crusade featured the Emperor and his custodes pwning everything. Like Ullanor.
They fought in the aftermath.
That's not hard to believe. The Custodes are exceptional, especially when led by the Emperor.
im2randomghgh wrote:No, the original Valdor v Horus thing was, I am fairly sure, from a white dwarf. Obviously I don't remember which issue, so the only other source that seemed to acknowledge the canonicity of WD was quoted by me.
And in which book are main characters NOT given rediculously huge boosts in power compared to what would make sense? It is called PLOT ARMOUR.
Astartes did NOT fight in the unification wars, as the primarchs hadn't even been incubated yet.
And the beginning of the crusade featured the Emperor and his custodes pwning everything. Like Ullanor.
1. You have to understand, the only source I have seen that say Horus was bested by Valdor are this wiki and you. Many others I have seen claim that Russ respected Valdor after he lost, but lasted longer than others thought he would, against Horus.
2. Crai moar. The Thousand Sons were reduced to a tenth of their former power in the book, and turned to Chaos out of desperation. Plot armour indeed.
3. There is an Astartes in the Luna Wolves stated in Horus Rising to have fought in the Unification Wars though, he even does the old Imperial salute.
Ullanor? Lol, you mean the campaign where Horus was elevated to Warmaster and the Emperor receded from the Crusade entirely? Yes, not even been incubated indeed.
An army of sheep led by a lion will defeat an army of lions led by a sheep. I think that if it came to combat between custodes and astartes, much would depend on who was leading each force...
The problem comes from utilizing both fluff and balanced rule systems, I think... an astartes may be worth a hundred guardsmen in the fluff, but in the game, I will take a hundred guardsmen over one marine any day of the week.
We should contact the Ultimate Warrior crew and make them do a custodes/astartes fight, just for kicks.
Obviously, because its three sentences after the text that I sat and typed in.
Could a mortal fight a Primarch? Tal says they look "wrong" despite how impressive they fight, and soon realises that the flaw is that they don't fight cohesively, they are warriors, not soldiers. It doesn't mean he thinks they aren't amazing fighters. Tal actually calls them "Lions" and the word bearers "Wolves"
Can a Wolf fight a Lion on it's own?
As I said, Im not massively into fanboi fights over fiction, I just find it annoying that people can read the same book and come to ridiculously different opinions when it is right there in black and white. This gak were reading ain't Ulysses.
Quite clearly an individual custodes is tougher than an individual Space Marine, every single aspect of the book points that way, the Space Marines great strength comes from their enhanced bodies, but mainly from their brothers, from the pack, just like a wolf.
So clearly, a group of SM could beat a custode's, but one on one a custode's would easily beat a SM right? We are singing off the same song sheet surely?
If you didn't get that from the book, then you really cant have read the book properly.
Aquillon and Vendetha might, yeah. But all Custodes, maybe not.
If you haven't noticed though those of us who are saying that they aren't that much better, I myself agree that a Custodes are better than a Astartes but not to the proportions that some fanboys have said, are using all of the sources and not just one being the First Heretic. ADB himself has said that the likes of Vendatha and Aquillon are not your average Custodes. To say that it is a cut and dry as Custodes would win all the time is blind as we have another source saying that to place a bet on either one winning in combat would be a tough choice.
Stuff like this is the issue I have
im2randomghgh wrote:
Did you forget the part were the Gal Vorbak outnumber the custodes 4 to one and took heavier losses?
On more than one occasion this has been bought up and we have said no, don't exaggerate and provided the numbers, names and page numbers to show the correct state of play. But still the fanboyism shines through.
im2randomghgh wrote:
Veterans have a few hundred years of experience, custodes have 13,000 years experience.
Please, oh please, tell me where you get this from?
im2randomghgh wrote:
Astartes did NOT fight in the unification wars, as the primarchs hadn't even been incubated yet.
And the beginning of the crusade featured the Emperor and his custodes pwning everything. Like Ullanor.
Nothing to do with the 20 Legions of Astartes that the Emperor had at his command then either? You know, going to find the Primarchs and stuff.
I have managed to find the reference where only 3 Custodes fell in battle, it's in Collected Visions, P143.
As the Emperor decapitated the giant, black skinned ork, the Custodians laid waste to the warlord's prime warriors. It is said that within moments over a hundred thousand greenskins died and the Waaagh! was broken. Legend Has it that only three Custodians fell at the battle, their names enshrined forever, engraved on the Emperors armour.
Viridian wrote: I gave a complete source vi quotation Lexicanum.com as my source because I do not own the book as stated. Does the quotation not say Lexicanum.com? Does it not Greyish? In fact you didn't even list page, paragraph and line # of that in your post you are no better then Lex by your own opinion other then the authenticity of verbatim(Which I trust you.) but don't pick on me when I gave a complete quote from a source section paragraph and line number in dead honesty. Egotistical throw backs... like this thread are the reason lex has enough problems verifying were people get there quotations when people are so brass to not take the time to authenticate a quote in its entirety as you did. People are so lazy they think there opinion is fact pure and simple. If you want to say its a quote fine list the source I don't care were its from but list it as best you can and as honest as you can. Sure there are a lot of quotations that are 'source: book x' off lex which are frustrating. I agree they should do a better job at refining it and make it a requirement for book and page number at the least if they aren't going to go Verbatim. But to decline Lex as good source is purely Lunicidal(yes I'm making sh!t up now) ... What is the number one thing people say on this forum if people want to learn 40k fluff?
...
Lexicanum is good for summarising the general concepts of 40k but, as with any wiki, it should always be used as a springboard to locate any source material rather than be quoted directly. Even if it has taken quotes from a source, without careful and consistent editing there is a likelihood that readers will be largely misled, as witnessed.
The way you formatted the reference of your source was not the problem though now you mention it, the page number is indeed incorrect too – Pg. 18 in “Blood Games” (Tales of Heresy) according to the version I have here. You should check it out, good story.
Finally, I didn't post here to necessarily back-up one side of the argument, but because taken on its own that line is strongly out of context with what the author seemingly tried to convey; details of the subtle differences rather than one regarding notable superiority.
Hey so, since there is already a thread about it and I can share significant new info, I kinda felt it would be inappropriate to create a completly new thread one and would like to revive this one despite some of the bickering that transpired here. Plus I may help with the apparent confusion in regards to TFH. : )
So it's been a a little while now since the Custodes have been added to the table with codex and some background information on general structure, sub-divisions, roles etc. I'm sure at least some of you have read the "Master of Mankind" novel that was released like more than half a year ago.
That particular book somewhat provides greater insight into the Custodes combat capabilities and without going deep into their caste system ( if I'm not mistaking there is no information if they are still organized in the same way they were during the Horus Heresy ), it is safe to say that despite not being a proper fighting / conquering army they were by all intents and purposes a very deadly force nontheless and certainly not limited to just protection duty.
So how much superior is the Custodes to the Astartes ? well in Master of Mankind, iirc their entire force is stuck in the Webway fighting off hordes of demons and traitor legions for 5 years non-stop losing over 90% of their original strenght. So they were down to roughly a mere thousand before Horus even reached Terra.
There is one engagement that really impressed me and imo answers above question fairly easily.
You're basicaly thrown right into it so note, you have no idea what went down before but it's fairly easy to guess. One of the Custodes Tribunes, Ra Endymion is killing a bunch of traitors by shooting a couple of them, then proceeds to slay a few more with his two blades while a Servitor is reloading the Guardian Spear. He then takes the spear, deflects ( yep ) three incomming bolter rounds with it momentarily afte parrying some melee attacks, then cuts down another enemy and kills a charging legion officer ( not specified what rank ) by fisting him in he face ( no Power Fist ). Then he is joined by Janetia Krole and they proceed slaughtering more attacking legionnaires while protecting eachothers backs. Now, you may say "but it's not your avarage Custodes, it's a tribune so he must be better than the rest anyway. Well not exactly. It is not like higher rank = superiority, just giving command over all other. Keep in mind that the attacking Astartes use numbers as well as both ranged and melee weapons (!) - so where does this leave us considering the Custodes are mentioned multiple times in lore ? Well pretty much to the original assumption now verified, that they are by far superior to the Astartes and not only in a 1on1 situation. These guys are often been heavily underestimated by most of the community tbh. They are "still not a proper fighting / conquering army, not by a stretch" etc. Well here's the thing. The Roman Praetorian Guard also was originaly not a proper fighting / conquering army but in times they were even used as the vanguard during entire campaigns. The Custodes in similar fashion appear to be a deadly effective re-active force - if that makes any sense. Simply discarding their effectiveness as a whole by claiming a squad of Marines would win against a squad of Custodes based on the mere observation of some Word Bearers during basicaly a mop up mission suddenly sounds .... a little suicidal if you ask me, given these new facts.
Two contingents of each, Custodes v Astartes ? I'd honestly put my money on the Custodes every single time.
Now about The First Heretic. I've re-read it a couple times myself and maybe I can put some clarity into this if not add more confusion lol. Argel Tal and 10 of the remaining Gal Vorbak ( so 11 in total as stated in the book - not 8 ) have Aquillon, Nyrallus and Sythran ( so 3 in total ) surrounded at the crash site. When Aqullon and Nyrallus perish, the Gal Vorbak are down to 6 as stated in the book. Now either this is sloppy writing or just acredited to the fact that Argel Tal as he says himself, can barely even remember how exactly it went down as he'd been trying to flush down those bad memories. Then Sythran kills Xaphen by hurling his Guardian Spear into his chest. Yes, Sythran remains unarmed when the remaining 5 Gal Vorbak lunge at him. While it's stupidly obv that he dies it still leaves us guessing on how exactly it ended. Apparently Tal only remembers the death of all of the Custodes but only half of the supposedly 6 Gal Vorbak that perished with them.
About 'A Thousand Sons'
Well yeah the Custodes contingent suffer greatly there but mostly due to psycic attacks and silly jetbike action, including Hathor Maat. That novel was written for the Thousands Sons really not the Custodes or the Wolves. But it tells really nothing except well that they are just as prone to psychic attacks as the rest. Not that tough in that regard. A flaw that can be overlooked because in most cases they don't face a full psychic foe and even in such an event they come with null maidens and Sisters.
In regards to The First Heretic the Gal Vorbak were stated to take many more strikes to put down than a normal Space Marine (presumably due to being possessed). They can't be taken as a baseline for Space Marine durability. Xaphen was either the exception or was already injured. And let's face it even with 'teamwork' the Custodes would've gone down against those odds.
There's also a bit of Astartes vs Custodes action in The Outcast Dead but it's pretty poorly written. An unarmed World Eater takes down a Custodes (who admittedly had an old injury slowing him somewhat) and kills him by punching through his power armour and tearing out his spine.
You're basicaly thrown right into it so note, you have no idea what went down before but it's fairly easy to guess. One of the Custodes Tribunes, Ra Endymion is killing a bunch of traitors by shooting a couple of them, then proceeds to slay a few more with his two blades while a Servitor is reloading the Guardian Spear. He then takes the spear, deflects ( yep ) two incomming bolter rounds with it momentarily afte parrying a melee attack, then cuts down another enemy and kills a charging legion officer ( not specified what rank ) by fisting him in he face ( no Power Fist ). Then he is joined by Janeta Krole and they proceed slaughtering more attacking legionnaires while protecting eachothers backs. Now, you may say "but it's not your avarage Custodes, it's a tribune so he must be better than the rest anyway. Well not exactly. It is not like higher rank = superiority, just giving command over all other. Keep in mind that the attacking Astartes use numbers as well as both ranged and melee weapons (!) - so where does this leave us considering the Custodes are mentioned multiple times in lore ? Well pretty much to the original assumption now verified, that they are by far superior to the Astartes and not only in a 1on1 situation. These guys are often been heavily underestimated by most of the community tbh. They are "still not a proper fighting / conquering army, not by a stretch" etc. Well here's the thing. The Roman Praetorian Guard also was originaly not a proper fighting / conquering army but in times they were even used as the vanguard during entire campaigns. The Custodes in similar fashion appear to be a deadly effective re-active force - if that makes any sense. Simply discarding their effectiveness as a whole by claiming a squad of Marines would win against a squad of Custodes based on the mere observation of some Word Bearers during basicaly a mop up mission suddenly sounds .... a little suicidal if you ask me, given these new facts.
We do get the impression from Throneworld that not all Custodes are equal in combat ability, for what it's worth:
Her progress slowed, the foe became too many; they were too accomplished as warriors. Their finest individuals would be a close match for her skills, and there were hundreds of them.
SomeRandomEvilGuy wrote: In regards to The First Heretic the Gal Vorbak were stated to take many more strikes to put down than a normal Space Marine (presumably due to being possessed). They can't be taken as a baseline for Space Marine durability. Xaphen was either the exception or was already injured. And let's face it even with 'teamwork' the Custodes would've gone down against those odds.
There's also a bit of Astartes vs Custodes action in The Outcast Dead but it's pretty poorly written. An unarmed World Eater takes down a Custodes (who admittedly had an old injury slowing him somewhat) and kills him by punching through his power armour and tearing out his spine.
Oh not intended at all. The Gal Vorbak are a totaly different animal alltogheter. The Custodes have an advantige in equipment only and as much as I want them to be superior and as a loyalist still be like "eh, I'd take one Custodes over 2 Gal Vorbak any day" in truth it could go either way in a 1 on 1 situation.
That is true, they virtualy had no chance in that engagement. It was a slaughter. Even if they were lucky and killed a few more they still wouldn't have been the ones standing in the end. That is why I really hate the fact they didn't ambush them with their bolters instead of casualy walking out of cover to have a chat, but eh, dramatic story telling and I kinda liked how Sythran went out. It was cool.
About the Marine punching through Auramite ... eh I don't know. Sounds kinda suspicious but seing how easily a Gal Vorbak can tear a head off and how effortlessly a sea of acid turns it into jelly .... it seems to be a pattern lol
Robin5t wrote: Her progress slowed, the foe became too many; they were too accomplished as warriors. Their finest individuals would be a close match for her skills, and there were hundreds of them.Throneworld, Guy Haley, Page #44
That is also very true, but my point was that the higher, except the ones who really do stand out like Valdor etc don't automaticaly outperform their subordinates. Like for instance Captain Aquillon was a great warrior but his subordinate Nirallus was considered the accomplished swordmaster in the small contingent.
redbeast001 wrote: In Master of Mankind the Custodies fight individually, yet when they form a squad they instinctively move to fight together.
A great book, I do recommend.
True and I think it were the Sentinels who even specialized in that.
It is really a great read. Def up there among the best 40k novels.
It's probably worh noting that the Custodians devestate Thousand Sons forces in “Inferno”, which is more Canom than any of the heresy series books.
That book is really tue only canon description of the martial abilities of the custodians. (and as a more recent development better shows how GW is picturing them as a product in relation to other products, rather than just a cool but unimportant piece of background fluff)
They are depicted in a similar way to master of mankind- a fighting force that is very, very able to defeat larger numbers of Astartes, to the point that a mortal observer noted that theu seemed to be designed for it.
Oh not intended at all. The Gal Vorbak are a totaly different animal alltogheter. The Custodes have an advantige in equipment only and as much as I want them to be superior and as a loyalist still be like "eh, I'd take one Custodes over 2 Gal Vorbak any day" in truth it could go either way in a 1 on 1 situation.
That is true, they virtualy had no chance in that engagement. It was a slaughter. Even if they were lucky and killed a few more they still wouldn't have been the ones standing in the end. That is why I really hate the fact they didn't ambush them with their bolters instead of casualy walking out of cover to have a chat, but eh, dramatic story telling and I kinda liked how Sythran went out. It was cool.
About the Marine punching through Auramite ... eh I don't know. Sounds kinda suspicious but seing how easily a Gal Vorbak can tear a head off and how effortlessly a sea of acid turns it into jelly .... it seems to be a pattern lol
Fair enough. The Custodes in The First Heretic seemed like they'd win in a one-on-one but other Custodes may not be as skilled.
Gotta have a talk before you fight. It's only polite.
"Ceramite shattered, and adamantium buckled and bone broke". This was before Auramite was decided on I guess. It's like armour would be worthless in Marine-on-Marine fights.
=Carlovonsexron wrote:It's probably worh noting that the Custodians devestate Thousand Sons forces in “Inferno”, which is more Canom than any of the heresy series books.
Do you have any details? Seems like the Psychic powers of the Thousand Sons would tip the edge in their favour if there were no Sisters of Silence around.
Where did the Emperor find so many Blanks in such a short space of time?
They could be cloned from let's say 100 original. Also in Inferno there was a regiment of Imperial Army made from blanks, if my memory serves well, which started the SoS program or at least gave it speed.
Well. Now that HH Inferno is out, we all know how much more superior the Custodes are to Astartes. Custodians make short work of sekhmet terminators and Valdor is proven to be a monster of a combatant.
Also, I remember reading from an official source the Ullanor was won because of the Custodians. Three whole Legions had trouble doing what the Emperor and 5000 Custodians did In such a short time.
So what's been intended since FOREVER has finally been proven:
Space marines are nowhere near a match for custodes.
Also, Black Library authors write stories, not background. Not everything you see in a BL novel is law. Some of you take books way too seriously. Realize it's only one author who may have skewed opinions or views about things, while books like Inferno are written by a team who all come to agree on the plot and whatnot.
moarmoarmoar wrote: They're extremely well trained, but not a military fighting force.
It's basically like the Pope's Swiss Guard... both dressed fancily and highly trained military commandos (look them up), but they're not equipped for larger scale engagements
Not military force? Less than 10k of them held off webway with sisters of silence for years with very slow rate of casualties. Not too shabby for "not military fighting force".
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123ply wrote: Also, Black Library authors write stories, not background. Not everything you see in a BL novel is law. Some of you take books way too seriously. Realize it's only one author who may have skewed opinions or views about things, while books like Inferno are written by a team who all come to agree on the plot and whatnot.
And you seem to take game stats too seriously. Those are downgraded to make game scale feasible.
40k has more in common with medieval times etc. and back then and up until like napleonic times, the Royal Guard, was the best of the best handpicked for loyalty to the monarch and given the best training and equipment . no reason to assume custodes are any differant in that regard
BrianDavion wrote: 40k has more in common with medieval times etc. and back then and up until like napleonic times, the Royal Guard, was the best of the best handpicked for loyalty to the monarch and given the best training and equipment . no reason to assume custodes are any differant in that regard
Yeah there meant to be thr elite guard, there a guard force and also in political intrigue's a force whose loyalty is only to the emperor, solely, and utterly and protecting him and his interests.
Unlike the legions and others they have no conflicted loyalty.
moarmoarmoar wrote: They're extremely well trained, but not a military fighting force.
It's basically like the Pope's Swiss Guard... both dressed fancily and highly trained military commandos (look them up), but they're not equipped for larger scale engagements
Not military force? Less than 10k of them held off webway with sisters of silence for years with very slow rate of casualties. Not too shabby for "not military fighting force".
Automatically Appended Next Post:
123ply wrote: Also, Black Library authors write stories, not background. Not everything you see in a BL novel is law. Some of you take books way too seriously. Realize it's only one author who may have skewed opinions or views about things, while books like Inferno are written by a team who all come to agree on the plot and whatnot.
And you seem to take game stats too seriously. Those are downgraded to make game scale feasible.
I didn't mention game stats once. Are you embarrassed that you tried to be clever but failed so hard to the point I now think you're completely stupid?
It's called fluff.
BrianDavion wrote: 40k has more in common with medieval times etc. and back then and up until like napleonic times, the Royal Guard, was the best of the best handpicked for loyalty to the monarch and given the best training and equipment . no reason to assume custodes are any differant in that regard
yes, but they only had humans to work with. astartes are a tool the emperor made to quickly spread across the galaxy expanding the empire and reclaiming lost worlds/ putting down xenos threat. they had to be quick to train and cheap to make. Find suitable genetically compatible human population, demand they tribute x number of people to the cause. insert gene seed harvest survivors into power armor and point them at what needs to be destroyed. Custodes on the other hand were each hand crafter by the big E and seem to have been built to protect from any threat, chaos, xenos or astartes.
The closest I could think would be sharks. a guardman might be a reef shark, an astartes a tiger shark, and an astartes a great white (slightly bigger, more dangerous, but both are more than capable of destroying the reef shark)
BrianDavion wrote: 40k has more in common with medieval times etc. and back then and up until like napleonic times, the Royal Guard, was the best of the best handpicked for loyalty to the monarch and given the best training and equipment . no reason to assume custodes are any differant in that regard
yes, but they only had humans to work with. astartes are a tool the emperor made to quickly spread across the galaxy expanding the empire and reclaiming lost worlds/ putting down xenos threat. they had to be quick to train and cheap to make. Find suitable genetically compatible human population, demand they tribute x number of people to the cause. insert gene seed harvest survivors into power armor and point them at what needs to be destroyed. Custodes on the other hand were each hand crafter by the big E and seem to have been built to protect from any threat, chaos, xenos or astartes.
The closest I could think would be sharks. a guardman might be a reef shark, an astartes a tiger shark, and an astartes a great white (slightly bigger, more dangerous, but both are more than capable of destroying the reef shark)
I think you're missing the point I was making My point was that Custodes being absolutely superior to astartes makes perfect sense, they have the best gene-tech, the best weapons, the best armor, and proably the best training.
moarmoarmoar wrote: They're extremely well trained, but not a military fighting force.
It's basically like the Pope's Swiss Guard... both dressed fancily and highly trained military commandos (look them up), but they're not equipped for larger scale engagements
Not military force? Less than 10k of them held off webway with sisters of silence for years with very slow rate of casualties. Not too shabby for "not military fighting force".
Automatically Appended Next Post:
123ply wrote: Also, Black Library authors write stories, not background. Not everything you see in a BL novel is law. Some of you take books way too seriously. Realize it's only one author who may have skewed opinions or views about things, while books like Inferno are written by a team who all come to agree on the plot and whatnot.
And you seem to take game stats too seriously. Those are downgraded to make game scale feasible.
I didn't mention game stats once. Are you embarrassed that you tried to be clever but failed so hard to the point I now think you're completely stupid?
It's called fluff.
You mentioned inferno. Only new thing that provides is game stats. Fluff wise how strong they are we have known for decades. Inferno provided nothing new there.
But nice to see you are so insecure about yourself you need to resort to insults. Guess you have no other solution to horrible realization you are wrong but are too afraid to admit it
BrianDavion wrote: 40k has more in common with medieval times etc. and back then and up until like napleonic times, the Royal Guard, was the best of the best handpicked for loyalty to the monarch and given the best training and equipment . no reason to assume custodes are any differant in that regard
yes, but they only had humans to work with. astartes are a tool the emperor made to quickly spread across the galaxy expanding the empire and reclaiming lost worlds/ putting down xenos threat. they had to be quick to train and cheap to make. Find suitable genetically compatible human population, demand they tribute x number of people to the cause. insert gene seed harvest survivors into power armor and point them at what needs to be destroyed. Custodes on the other hand were each hand crafter by the big E and seem to have been built to protect from any threat, chaos, xenos or astartes.
The closest I could think would be sharks. a guardman might be a reef shark, an astartes a tiger shark, and an astartes a great white (slightly bigger, more dangerous, but both are more than capable of destroying the reef shark)
I think you're missing the point I was making My point was that Custodes being absolutely superior to astartes makes perfect sense, they have the best gene-tech, the best weapons, the best armor, and proably the best training.
my mistake, I read it as they are just astartes with better training and better equipment
BrianDavion wrote: 40k has more in common with medieval times etc. and back then and up until like napleonic times, the Royal Guard, was the best of the best handpicked for loyalty to the monarch and given the best training and equipment . no reason to assume custodes are any differant in that regard
yes, but they only had humans to work with. astartes are a tool the emperor made to quickly spread across the galaxy expanding the empire and reclaiming lost worlds/ putting down xenos threat. they had to be quick to train and cheap to make. Find suitable genetically compatible human population, demand they tribute x number of people to the cause. insert gene seed harvest survivors into power armor and point them at what needs to be destroyed. Custodes on the other hand were each hand crafter by the big E and seem to have been built to protect from any threat, chaos, xenos or astartes.
The closest I could think would be sharks. a guardman might be a reef shark, an astartes a tiger shark, and an astartes a great white (slightly bigger, more dangerous, but both are more than capable of destroying the reef shark)
I think you're missing the point I was making My point was that Custodes being absolutely superior to astartes makes perfect sense, they have the best gene-tech, the best weapons, the best armor, and proably the best training.
my mistake, I read it as they are just astartes with better training and better equipment
The main marine advantage is they while can work perfectly in sqauds and part of larger forces by there training they fight as one, not a group.
Each one is a unparalleled warrior, but arastes are brothers, they fight as a group and there different tactics reflect each is as some describe, a wil pack vs a lion.
Marines are trained to work in larger scale deployments with full brigadetype support like artillery, heavy armour and air assets. , and practice this more than the golden clad sentinals.
I meant Eternal was right in the regard of what happened, not necessarily who was involved.
