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Made in de
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Hey so, since there is already a thread about it and I can share significant new info, I kinda felt it would be inappropriate to create a completly new thread one and would like to revive this one despite some of the bickering that transpired here. Plus I may help with the apparent confusion in regards to TFH. : )

So it's been a a little while now since the Custodes have been added to the table with codex and some background information on general structure, sub-divisions, roles etc. I'm sure at least some of you have read the "Master of Mankind" novel that was released like more than half a year ago.

That particular book somewhat provides greater insight into the Custodes combat capabilities and without going deep into their caste system ( if I'm not mistaking there is no information if they are still organized in the same way they were during the Horus Heresy ), it is safe to say that despite not being a proper fighting / conquering army they were by all intents and purposes a very deadly force nontheless and certainly not limited to just protection duty.

So how much superior is the Custodes to the Astartes ? well in Master of Mankind, iirc their entire force is stuck in the Webway fighting off hordes of demons and traitor legions for 5 years non-stop losing over 90% of their original strenght. So they were down to roughly a mere thousand before Horus even reached Terra.

There is one engagement that really impressed me and imo answers above question fairly easily.
You're basicaly thrown right into it so note, you have no idea what went down before but it's fairly easy to guess. One of the Custodes Tribunes, Ra Endymion is killing a bunch of traitors by shooting a couple of them, then proceeds to slay a few more with his two blades while a Servitor is reloading the Guardian Spear. He then takes the spear, deflects ( yep ) three incomming bolter rounds with it momentarily afte parrying some melee attacks, then cuts down another enemy and kills a charging legion officer ( not specified what rank ) by fisting him in he face ( no Power Fist ). Then he is joined by Janetia Krole and they proceed slaughtering more attacking legionnaires while protecting eachothers backs. Now, you may say "but it's not your avarage Custodes, it's a tribune so he must be better than the rest anyway. Well not exactly. It is not like higher rank = superiority, just giving command over all other. Keep in mind that the attacking Astartes use numbers as well as both ranged and melee weapons (!) - so where does this leave us considering the Custodes are mentioned multiple times in lore ? Well pretty much to the original assumption now verified, that they are by far superior to the Astartes and not only in a 1on1 situation. These guys are often been heavily underestimated by most of the community tbh. They are "still not a proper fighting / conquering army, not by a stretch" etc. Well here's the thing. The Roman Praetorian Guard also was originaly not a proper fighting / conquering army but in times they were even used as the vanguard during entire campaigns. The Custodes in similar fashion appear to be a deadly effective re-active force - if that makes any sense. Simply discarding their effectiveness as a whole by claiming a squad of Marines would win against a squad of Custodes based on the mere observation of some Word Bearers during basicaly a mop up mission suddenly sounds .... a little suicidal if you ask me, given these new facts.

Two contingents of each, Custodes v Astartes ? I'd honestly put my money on the Custodes every single time.

Now about The First Heretic. I've re-read it a couple times myself and maybe I can put some clarity into this if not add more confusion lol. Argel Tal and 10 of the remaining Gal Vorbak ( so 11 in total as stated in the book - not 8 ) have Aquillon, Nyrallus and Sythran ( so 3 in total ) surrounded at the crash site. When Aqullon and Nyrallus perish, the Gal Vorbak are down to 6 as stated in the book. Now either this is sloppy writing or just acredited to the fact that Argel Tal as he says himself, can barely even remember how exactly it went down as he'd been trying to flush down those bad memories. Then Sythran kills Xaphen by hurling his Guardian Spear into his chest. Yes, Sythran remains unarmed when the remaining 5 Gal Vorbak lunge at him. While it's stupidly obv that he dies it still leaves us guessing on how exactly it ended. Apparently Tal only remembers the death of all of the Custodes but only half of the supposedly 6 Gal Vorbak that perished with them.

About 'A Thousand Sons'

Well yeah the Custodes contingent suffer greatly there but mostly due to psycic attacks and silly jetbike action, including Hathor Maat. That novel was written for the Thousands Sons really not the Custodes or the Wolves. But it tells really nothing except well that they are just as prone to psychic attacks as the rest. Not that tough in that regard. A flaw that can be overlooked because in most cases they don't face a full psychic foe and even in such an event they come with null maidens and Sisters.

This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2017/05/27 05:09:01


 
   
Made in gb
Longtime Dakkanaut




In regards to The First Heretic the Gal Vorbak were stated to take many more strikes to put down than a normal Space Marine (presumably due to being possessed). They can't be taken as a baseline for Space Marine durability. Xaphen was either the exception or was already injured. And let's face it even with 'teamwork' the Custodes would've gone down against those odds.

There's also a bit of Astartes vs Custodes action in The Outcast Dead but it's pretty poorly written. An unarmed World Eater takes down a Custodes (who admittedly had an old injury slowing him somewhat) and kills him by punching through his power armour and tearing out his spine.
   
Made in gb
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Lores11 wrote:

You're basicaly thrown right into it so note, you have no idea what went down before but it's fairly easy to guess. One of the Custodes Tribunes, Ra Endymion is killing a bunch of traitors by shooting a couple of them, then proceeds to slay a few more with his two blades while a Servitor is reloading the Guardian Spear. He then takes the spear, deflects ( yep ) two incomming bolter rounds with it momentarily afte parrying a melee attack, then cuts down another enemy and kills a charging legion officer ( not specified what rank ) by fisting him in he face ( no Power Fist ). Then he is joined by Janeta Krole and they proceed slaughtering more attacking legionnaires while protecting eachothers backs. Now, you may say "but it's not your avarage Custodes, it's a tribune so he must be better than the rest anyway. Well not exactly. It is not like higher rank = superiority, just giving command over all other. Keep in mind that the attacking Astartes use numbers as well as both ranged and melee weapons (!) - so where does this leave us considering the Custodes are mentioned multiple times in lore ? Well pretty much to the original assumption now verified, that they are by far superior to the Astartes and not only in a 1on1 situation. These guys are often been heavily underestimated by most of the community tbh. They are "still not a proper fighting / conquering army, not by a stretch" etc. Well here's the thing. The Roman Praetorian Guard also was originaly not a proper fighting / conquering army but in times they were even used as the vanguard during entire campaigns. The Custodes in similar fashion appear to be a deadly effective re-active force - if that makes any sense. Simply discarding their effectiveness as a whole by claiming a squad of Marines would win against a squad of Custodes based on the mere observation of some Word Bearers during basicaly a mop up mission suddenly sounds .... a little suicidal if you ask me, given these new facts.
We do get the impression from Throneworld that not all Custodes are equal in combat ability, for what it's worth:

Her progress slowed, the foe became too many; they were too accomplished as warriors. Their finest individuals would be a close match for her skills, and there were hundreds of them.
Throneworld, Guy Haley, Page #44



   
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In Master of Mankind the Custodies fight individually, yet when they form a squad they instinctively move to fight together.

A great book, I do recommend.

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SomeRandomEvilGuy wrote:
In regards to The First Heretic the Gal Vorbak were stated to take many more strikes to put down than a normal Space Marine (presumably due to being possessed). They can't be taken as a baseline for Space Marine durability. Xaphen was either the exception or was already injured. And let's face it even with 'teamwork' the Custodes would've gone down against those odds.

There's also a bit of Astartes vs Custodes action in The Outcast Dead but it's pretty poorly written. An unarmed World Eater takes down a Custodes (who admittedly had an old injury slowing him somewhat) and kills him by punching through his power armour and tearing out his spine.


Oh not intended at all. The Gal Vorbak are a totaly different animal alltogheter. The Custodes have an advantige in equipment only and as much as I want them to be superior and as a loyalist still be like "eh, I'd take one Custodes over 2 Gal Vorbak any day" in truth it could go either way in a 1 on 1 situation.

That is true, they virtualy had no chance in that engagement. It was a slaughter. Even if they were lucky and killed a few more they still wouldn't have been the ones standing in the end. That is why I really hate the fact they didn't ambush them with their bolters instead of casualy walking out of cover to have a chat, but eh, dramatic story telling and I kinda liked how Sythran went out. It was cool.

About the Marine punching through Auramite ... eh I don't know. Sounds kinda suspicious but seing how easily a Gal Vorbak can tear a head off and how effortlessly a sea of acid turns it into jelly .... it seems to be a pattern lol

 Robin5t wrote:
Her progress slowed, the foe became too many; they were too accomplished as warriors. Their finest individuals would be a close match for her skills, and there were hundreds of them.Throneworld, Guy Haley, Page #44


That is also very true, but my point was that the higher, except the ones who really do stand out like Valdor etc don't automaticaly outperform their subordinates. Like for instance Captain Aquillon was a great warrior but his subordinate Nirallus was considered the accomplished swordmaster in the small contingent.

redbeast001 wrote:
In Master of Mankind the Custodies fight individually, yet when they form a squad they instinctively move to fight together.

A great book, I do recommend.


True and I think it were the Sentinels who even specialized in that.

It is really a great read. Def up there among the best 40k novels.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/05/25 23:23:23


 
   
Made in tw
Longtime Dakkanaut





It's probably worh noting that the Custodians devestate Thousand Sons forces in “Inferno”, which is more Canom than any of the heresy series books.

That book is really tue only canon description of the martial abilities of the custodians. (and as a more recent development better shows how GW is picturing them as a product in relation to other products, rather than just a cool but unimportant piece of background fluff)

They are depicted in a similar way to master of mankind- a fighting force that is very, very able to defeat larger numbers of Astartes, to the point that a mortal observer noted that theu seemed to be designed for it.

   
Made in gb
Longtime Dakkanaut




Lores11 wrote:


Oh not intended at all. The Gal Vorbak are a totaly different animal alltogheter. The Custodes have an advantige in equipment only and as much as I want them to be superior and as a loyalist still be like "eh, I'd take one Custodes over 2 Gal Vorbak any day" in truth it could go either way in a 1 on 1 situation.

That is true, they virtualy had no chance in that engagement. It was a slaughter. Even if they were lucky and killed a few more they still wouldn't have been the ones standing in the end. That is why I really hate the fact they didn't ambush them with their bolters instead of casualy walking out of cover to have a chat, but eh, dramatic story telling and I kinda liked how Sythran went out. It was cool.

About the Marine punching through Auramite ... eh I don't know. Sounds kinda suspicious but seing how easily a Gal Vorbak can tear a head off and how effortlessly a sea of acid turns it into jelly .... it seems to be a pattern lol

Fair enough. The Custodes in The First Heretic seemed like they'd win in a one-on-one but other Custodes may not be as skilled.

Gotta have a talk before you fight. It's only polite.

"Ceramite shattered, and adamantium buckled and bone broke". This was before Auramite was decided on I guess. It's like armour would be worthless in Marine-on-Marine fights.

=Carlovonsexron wrote:It's probably worh noting that the Custodians devestate Thousand Sons forces in “Inferno”, which is more Canom than any of the heresy series books.

Do you have any details? Seems like the Psychic powers of the Thousand Sons would tip the edge in their favour if there were no Sisters of Silence around.
   
Made in tw
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500 Custodians supported by 1000 sisters of silence wipe out 6000 of the thousand sons elites

   
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That'd be pretty effective against Psykers.

Where did the Emperor find so many Blanks in such a short space of time?
   
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SomeRandomEvilGuy wrote:
That'd be pretty effective against Psykers.

Where did the Emperor find so many Blanks in such a short space of time?

They could be cloned from let's say 100 original. Also in Inferno there was a regiment of Imperial Army made from blanks, if my memory serves well, which started the SoS program or at least gave it speed.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/05/28 12:50:54


 
   
Made in ca
Storm Trooper with Maglight




Well. Now that HH Inferno is out, we all know how much more superior the Custodes are to Astartes. Custodians make short work of sekhmet terminators and Valdor is proven to be a monster of a combatant.

Also, I remember reading from an official source the Ullanor was won because of the Custodians. Three whole Legions had trouble doing what the Emperor and 5000 Custodians did In such a short time.

So what's been intended since FOREVER has finally been proven:
Space marines are nowhere near a match for custodes.

Also, Black Library authors write stories, not background. Not everything you see in a BL novel is law. Some of you take books way too seriously. Realize it's only one author who may have skewed opinions or views about things, while books like Inferno are written by a team who all come to agree on the plot and whatnot.

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"Racist and Proud of it" - Gains fleshbane, rending, rage, counter-attack, and X2 strength and toughness when locked in combat with units not in the "Imperium of Man" faction.

Collection:
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 moarmoarmoar wrote:
They're extremely well trained, but not a military fighting force.

It's basically like the Pope's Swiss Guard... both dressed fancily and highly trained military commandos (look them up), but they're not equipped for larger scale engagements


Not military force? Less than 10k of them held off webway with sisters of silence for years with very slow rate of casualties. Not too shabby for "not military fighting force".


Automatically Appended Next Post:
123ply wrote:
Also, Black Library authors write stories, not background. Not everything you see in a BL novel is law. Some of you take books way too seriously. Realize it's only one author who may have skewed opinions or views about things, while books like Inferno are written by a team who all come to agree on the plot and whatnot.


And you seem to take game stats too seriously. Those are downgraded to make game scale feasible.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/05/30 05:20:35


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40k has more in common with medieval times etc. and back then and up until like napleonic times, the Royal Guard, was the best of the best handpicked for loyalty to the monarch and given the best training and equipment . no reason to assume custodes are any differant in that regard

Opinions are not facts please don't confuse the two 
   
Made in gb
Keeper of the Holy Orb of Antioch





avoiding the lorax on Crion

BrianDavion wrote:
40k has more in common with medieval times etc. and back then and up until like napleonic times, the Royal Guard, was the best of the best handpicked for loyalty to the monarch and given the best training and equipment . no reason to assume custodes are any differant in that regard


Yeah there meant to be thr elite guard, there a guard force and also in political intrigue's a force whose loyalty is only to the emperor, solely, and utterly and protecting him and his interests.

Unlike the legions and others they have no conflicted loyalty.

Sgt. Vanden - OOC Hey, that was your doing. I didn't choose to fly in the "Dongerprise'.

"May the odds be ever in your favour"

Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:
I have no clue how Dakka's moderation work. I expect it involves throwing a lot of d100 and looking at many random tables.

FudgeDumper - It could be that you are just so uncomfortable with the idea of your chapters primarch having his way with a docile tyranid spore cyst, that you must deny they have any feelings at all.  
   
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Storm Trooper with Maglight




tneva82 wrote:
 moarmoarmoar wrote:
They're extremely well trained, but not a military fighting force.

It's basically like the Pope's Swiss Guard... both dressed fancily and highly trained military commandos (look them up), but they're not equipped for larger scale engagements


Not military force? Less than 10k of them held off webway with sisters of silence for years with very slow rate of casualties. Not too shabby for "not military fighting force".


Automatically Appended Next Post:
123ply wrote:
Also, Black Library authors write stories, not background. Not everything you see in a BL novel is law. Some of you take books way too seriously. Realize it's only one author who may have skewed opinions or views about things, while books like Inferno are written by a team who all come to agree on the plot and whatnot.


And you seem to take game stats too seriously. Those are downgraded to make game scale feasible.


I didn't mention game stats once. Are you embarrassed that you tried to be clever but failed so hard to the point I now think you're completely stupid?
It's called fluff.

123ply: Dataslate- 4/4/3/3/1/3/1/8/6+
Autopistol, Steel Extendo, Puma Hoodie
USRs: "Preferred Enemy: Xenos"
"Hatred: Xenos"
"Racist and Proud of it" - Gains fleshbane, rending, rage, counter-attack, and X2 strength and toughness when locked in combat with units not in the "Imperium of Man" faction.

Collection:
AM/IG - 122nd Terrax Guard: 2094/3000pts
Skitarii/Cult Mech: 1380/2000pts
Khorne Daemonkin - Host of the Nervous Knife: 1701/2000pts
Orks - Rampage Axez: 1753/2000pts 
   
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BrianDavion wrote:
40k has more in common with medieval times etc. and back then and up until like napleonic times, the Royal Guard, was the best of the best handpicked for loyalty to the monarch and given the best training and equipment . no reason to assume custodes are any differant in that regard


yes, but they only had humans to work with. astartes are a tool the emperor made to quickly spread across the galaxy expanding the empire and reclaiming lost worlds/ putting down xenos threat. they had to be quick to train and cheap to make. Find suitable genetically compatible human population, demand they tribute x number of people to the cause. insert gene seed harvest survivors into power armor and point them at what needs to be destroyed. Custodes on the other hand were each hand crafter by the big E and seem to have been built to protect from any threat, chaos, xenos or astartes.

The closest I could think would be sharks. a guardman might be a reef shark, an astartes a tiger shark, and an astartes a great white (slightly bigger, more dangerous, but both are more than capable of destroying the reef shark)


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 G00fySmiley wrote:
BrianDavion wrote:
40k has more in common with medieval times etc. and back then and up until like napleonic times, the Royal Guard, was the best of the best handpicked for loyalty to the monarch and given the best training and equipment . no reason to assume custodes are any differant in that regard


yes, but they only had humans to work with. astartes are a tool the emperor made to quickly spread across the galaxy expanding the empire and reclaiming lost worlds/ putting down xenos threat. they had to be quick to train and cheap to make. Find suitable genetically compatible human population, demand they tribute x number of people to the cause. insert gene seed harvest survivors into power armor and point them at what needs to be destroyed. Custodes on the other hand were each hand crafter by the big E and seem to have been built to protect from any threat, chaos, xenos or astartes.

The closest I could think would be sharks. a guardman might be a reef shark, an astartes a tiger shark, and an astartes a great white (slightly bigger, more dangerous, but both are more than capable of destroying the reef shark)




I think you're missing the point I was making My point was that Custodes being absolutely superior to astartes makes perfect sense, they have the best gene-tech, the best weapons, the best armor, and proably the best training.

Opinions are not facts please don't confuse the two 
   
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123ply wrote:
tneva82 wrote:
 moarmoarmoar wrote:
They're extremely well trained, but not a military fighting force.

It's basically like the Pope's Swiss Guard... both dressed fancily and highly trained military commandos (look them up), but they're not equipped for larger scale engagements


Not military force? Less than 10k of them held off webway with sisters of silence for years with very slow rate of casualties. Not too shabby for "not military fighting force".


Automatically Appended Next Post:
123ply wrote:
Also, Black Library authors write stories, not background. Not everything you see in a BL novel is law. Some of you take books way too seriously. Realize it's only one author who may have skewed opinions or views about things, while books like Inferno are written by a team who all come to agree on the plot and whatnot.


And you seem to take game stats too seriously. Those are downgraded to make game scale feasible.


I didn't mention game stats once. Are you embarrassed that you tried to be clever but failed so hard to the point I now think you're completely stupid?
It's called fluff.


You mentioned inferno. Only new thing that provides is game stats. Fluff wise how strong they are we have known for decades. Inferno provided nothing new there.

But nice to see you are so insecure about yourself you need to resort to insults. Guess you have no other solution to horrible realization you are wrong but are too afraid to admit it

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/06/01 13:33:11


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BrianDavion wrote:
 G00fySmiley wrote:
BrianDavion wrote:
40k has more in common with medieval times etc. and back then and up until like napleonic times, the Royal Guard, was the best of the best handpicked for loyalty to the monarch and given the best training and equipment . no reason to assume custodes are any differant in that regard


yes, but they only had humans to work with. astartes are a tool the emperor made to quickly spread across the galaxy expanding the empire and reclaiming lost worlds/ putting down xenos threat. they had to be quick to train and cheap to make. Find suitable genetically compatible human population, demand they tribute x number of people to the cause. insert gene seed harvest survivors into power armor and point them at what needs to be destroyed. Custodes on the other hand were each hand crafter by the big E and seem to have been built to protect from any threat, chaos, xenos or astartes.

The closest I could think would be sharks. a guardman might be a reef shark, an astartes a tiger shark, and an astartes a great white (slightly bigger, more dangerous, but both are more than capable of destroying the reef shark)




I think you're missing the point I was making My point was that Custodes being absolutely superior to astartes makes perfect sense, they have the best gene-tech, the best weapons, the best armor, and proably the best training.


my mistake, I read it as they are just astartes with better training and better equipment

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avoiding the lorax on Crion

 G00fySmiley wrote:
BrianDavion wrote:
 G00fySmiley wrote:
BrianDavion wrote:
40k has more in common with medieval times etc. and back then and up until like napleonic times, the Royal Guard, was the best of the best handpicked for loyalty to the monarch and given the best training and equipment . no reason to assume custodes are any differant in that regard


yes, but they only had humans to work with. astartes are a tool the emperor made to quickly spread across the galaxy expanding the empire and reclaiming lost worlds/ putting down xenos threat. they had to be quick to train and cheap to make. Find suitable genetically compatible human population, demand they tribute x number of people to the cause. insert gene seed harvest survivors into power armor and point them at what needs to be destroyed. Custodes on the other hand were each hand crafter by the big E and seem to have been built to protect from any threat, chaos, xenos or astartes.

The closest I could think would be sharks. a guardman might be a reef shark, an astartes a tiger shark, and an astartes a great white (slightly bigger, more dangerous, but both are more than capable of destroying the reef shark)




I think you're missing the point I was making My point was that Custodes being absolutely superior to astartes makes perfect sense, they have the best gene-tech, the best weapons, the best armor, and proably the best training.


my mistake, I read it as they are just astartes with better training and better equipment


The main marine advantage is they while can work perfectly in sqauds and part of larger forces by there training they fight as one, not a group.
Each one is a unparalleled warrior, but arastes are brothers, they fight as a group and there different tactics reflect each is as some describe, a wil pack vs a lion.

Marines are trained to work in larger scale deployments with full brigadetype support like artillery, heavy armour and air assets. , and practice this more than the golden clad sentinals.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/06/01 20:16:28


Sgt. Vanden - OOC Hey, that was your doing. I didn't choose to fly in the "Dongerprise'.

"May the odds be ever in your favour"

Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:
I have no clue how Dakka's moderation work. I expect it involves throwing a lot of d100 and looking at many random tables.

FudgeDumper - It could be that you are just so uncomfortable with the idea of your chapters primarch having his way with a docile tyranid spore cyst, that you must deny they have any feelings at all.  
   
 
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