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Omegus wrote:They are still warriors with centuries of experience, and this guy was pointing his weapon at their Primarch. Even if they didn't think he would go through with it, blasting a full-auto burst at their Primarch should have definitely put them on their toes if they weren't already. I mean, a Space Marine's reaction time is what, milliseconds? It certainly wasn't enough in this case.

Vendatha was a ninja

Omegus wrote:Lorgar was at ease, sure, but he was also a putz.

At this time, agreed, after Istvaan he's a bit of a dude ... Corax straightens him out.

Custodes seem to be better than Astartes in personal combat. Much like say, a Callidus assassin. That doesn't mean they are as good in battle. All your fancy swordwankery isn't gonna do you any good if a space marine and nine of his buddies blow your face off with bolter fire from across no man's land.

iproxtaco wrote:

thunderingjove wrote:What are the origins of the Custodes' geneseed?

It isn't even said that they have geneseed.

They are basically grown in test tubes with all of their genetic material created artificially.

The Astartes look down upon them for this reason. Astartes are naturally born humans that have been elevated. Custodes are nothing but artificial hunks of flesh.

They look down on the Emperors own Guardians and Protectors of the Imperial Palace, one sharing a seat with the High Lords of Terra?

Hmm, ok ...

What gave you that impression?

Grey Templar wrote:They are basically grown in test tubes with all of their genetic material created artificially.

The Astartes look down upon them for this reason. Astartes are naturally born humans that have been elevated. Custodes are nothing but artificial hunks of flesh.

Nearly there but it's a bit mixed up. Primarch's look down upon the Custodes. Particularly when they've been sent to pry about. Hence Lorgar's sly comments. Astartes on the other hand seem to regard them as somewhat of a mystery - a new subject to analyse where possible in order to improve their own tactical knowledge. They also seem to be as left in the dark regarding the Custodians origins as we are...

Greyish wrote:

Grey Templar wrote:They are basically grown in test tubes with all of their genetic material created artificially.

The Astartes look down upon them for this reason. Astartes are naturally born humans that have been elevated. Custodes are nothing but artificial hunks of flesh.

Nearly there but it's a bit mixed up. Primarch's look down upon the Custodes. Particularly when they've been sent to pry about. Hence Lorgar's sly comments. Astartes on the other hand seem to regard them as somewhat of a mystery - a new subject to analyse where possible in order to improve their own tactical knowledge. They also seem to be as left in the dark regarding the Custodians origins as we are...

Definitely more this than that other stuff!

Greyish wrote:

Grey Templar wrote:They are basically grown in test tubes with all of their genetic material created artificially.

The Astartes look down upon them for this reason. Astartes are naturally born humans that have been elevated. Custodes are nothing but artificial hunks of flesh.

Nearly there but it's a bit mixed up. Primarch's look down upon the Custodes. Particularly when they've been sent to pry about. Hence Lorgar's sly comments. Astartes on the other hand seem to regard them as somewhat of a mystery - a new subject to analyse where possible in order to improve their own tactical knowledge. They also seem to be as left in the dark regarding the Custodians origins as we are...

meh, its the impression I got from the Astartes to Astartes to Primarch banter.

I could be wrong.


If I was a Space Marine and Custodes were indeed grown in test tubes I would look down upon them. I gave up my humanity for the Emperor, the Custode had no choice and has been programmed to be subservient. Willing followers should be superior to automatons who didn't have a choice in the matter.

Grey Templar wrote:
If I was a Space Marine and Custodes were indeed grown in test tubes I would look down upon them. I gave up my humanity for the Emperor, the Custode had no choice and has been programmed to be subservient.

Just like Space Marines look down on Primarchs for the same reason, right?

No one said it was a rational feeling.

I think there's a big difference between a Primarch and a Custode, physically, spiritually, in their personalities, their mind sets, and most importantly their connection with the Space Marines. What's a Cutode to an Astartes? An inferior being, maybe not physically, but the Custodes definitely seem to be portrayed as arrogant, believing they are the chosen. Space Marines resent this as they're the foot-slogging soldiers who do the dirty work. The Primarchs are nearly Gods, and are always portrayed as kind to their Space Marines who venerate them as fathers.

That's my impression too. Especially the part about Custodian arrogance. The discussion between them in The First Heretic, wherein Nirallus states that they were his 'true sons' makes me believe they look down on the Primarchs to a certain extent too. So both camps have similar feelings of superiority regarding each other.

Greyish wrote:That's my impression too. Especially the part about Custodian arrogance. The discussion between them in The First Heretic, wherein Nirallus states that they were his 'true sons' makes me believe they look down on the Primarchs to a certain extent too. So both camps have similar feelings of superiority regarding each other.

They certainly looked down on Lorgar. At one point, while watching the ceremony where Lorgar created his elite squad (Gar Volbak or something silly like that), they bemoan having to follow "this weakling Primarch" around for 50 years.
And Valdor was one of the dill-weeds who instigated the burning of Prospero. On the other hand, they speak in very respectful tones of Dorn and Guilliman, who were always very dutiful boys. I think they basically judged them based on how useful they were to the Emperor, and nothing else. Which makes sense, I suppose.

Gal Vorbak, meaning the Blessed Sons in Colchisian.

Hey, I was close.

My opinion:

Custodes are as physically tough and strong as a marine, however 1 on 1 in combat they are very superior (better than a captain). However as mentioned they fight as individuals an not as a cohesive unit and there are only so many of them. So to put it in "table top rules" (though no where near accurate to the fluff):
WS7 BS5 S4 T4 W1 I7 A3 Ld10 Sv2+

Companions and centurions would be better than this.

if i remember correctly 30 custodes killed like 200 TS in the razing of prospero
collected visions i believe

A good chunk of Thousand Sons that died on Prospero did so when their own powers went out of control/they exploded/that titan exploded. Until then, they were schooling Custodians, Silent Sisters and Space Wolves by the dozen.

vodo40k wrote:My opinion:

Custodes are as physically tough and strong as a marine, however 1 on 1 in combat they are very superior (better than a captain). However as mentioned they fight as individuals an not as a cohesive unit and there are only so many of them. So to put it in "table top rules" (though no where near accurate to the fluff):
WS7 BS5 S4 T4 W1 I7 A3 Ld10 Sv2+

Companions and centurions would be better than this.

...And I take it MEQ players are to use 'movie marines' rules when playing against these. :p

Something else to keep in mind was that during the Great Crusade the space marines were more mass produced. Their gear was standardised and rushed out to try and keep up with the orders and they were created in great numbers to continue the Crusade.
The analogy i think of is that space marines were production cars, produced on a line, all good, but none great. Whereas the Custodes were more like super cars (sorry, been watching a bit of top gear), individually crafted as well as their equipment tailored for themselves and made of the best components.
Custodes weren't so much super-marines as marines crafted with care and the best of everything (including possibly the emperor's gene seed).

I would think that 1 on 1 a Custodes is superior to a normal marine, with only the exceptional leaders capable of matching a custodes. In a full scale battle or for a war, the space marines would be superior. Simply because that is what they are for. Winning wars.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Greyish wrote:

vodo40k wrote:My opinion:

Custodes are as physically tough and strong as a marine, however 1 on 1 in combat they are very superior (better than a captain). However as mentioned they fight as individuals an not as a cohesive unit and there are only so many of them. So to put it in "table top rules" (though no where near accurate to the fluff):
WS7 BS5 S4 T4 W1 I7 A3 Ld10 Sv2+

Companions and centurions would be better than this.

...And I take it MEQ players are to use 'movie marines' rules when playing against these. :p

maybe just dial it down to a space marine captain ish stats 5 5 4 4 5 2 10 3+ then add their superior wargear to differentiate them from space marines.

5 wounds, initiative 2? What are they, Orks?

Omegus wrote:5 wounds, initiative 2? What are they, Orks?

yep they are killing machines. lol. probably more like nurgling bases.
i got scared id get in trouble for putting in stats. anyway. something like space marine captains (ws 5 bs 5 i 5, otherwise the same) but with better wargear.

Have the Custodes we've met so far just be rather exceptional ones though? I would agree with ChaosGalvatron that a Custodes would roughly be the equivalent to maybe a sergeant.

Whilst the Astartes are off fighting Xenos the Custodes are there polishing the Emperors shiny bits.

Valdor!
Yes, my Lord?
... you missed a spot.

The Rogue Trader rulebook from 1987 had a statline for the custodes actually it was

M:4 WS:5 BS:5 S:4 T:4 W:2 I:5 A:2 LD:8

Which is more or less inline with a champion of the era:

M:4 WS:5 BS:5 S:4 T:3 W:1 I:5 A:1 LD:8

But were less than a minor Hero

M: 4 WS:6 BS:6 S:4 T:4 W:2 I:6 A:2 LD: 9

Greyish wrote:

vodo40k wrote:My opinion:

Custodes are as physically tough and strong as a marine, however 1 on 1 in combat they are very superior (better than a captain). However as mentioned they fight as individuals an not as a cohesive unit and there are only so many of them. So to put it in "table top rules" (though no where near accurate to the fluff):
WS7 BS5 S4 T4 W1 I7 A3 Ld10 Sv2+

Companions and centurions would be better than this.

...And I take it MEQ players are to use 'movie marines' rules when playing against these. :p

No a "movie marine" custode would be more like this:

WS8 BS6 S5 T5 W2 I8 A4 Ld10 Sv2+

Pilau Rice wrote:Have the Custodes we've met so far just be rather exceptional ones though? I would agree with ChaosGalvatron that a Custodes would roughly be the equivalent to maybe a sergeant.

According to their author the one's in the First Heretic are quite exceptional, or at least Vendatha is. However, he never backed this notion up in the actual novel. You'll have to track him down online for more on that. As it's never stated it's not hard to see why people get the wrong end of the stick and feel that all Custodes are on par with these guys, but imo it would be an incorrect assumption to make. With a bit of an update to 5E, the Rogue Trader rules could be a viable template. I'd also recommend the set at Tempus Fugitives for roles like the Companions.

Greyish wrote:

Pilau Rice wrote:Have the Custodes we've met so far just be rather exceptional ones though? I would agree with ChaosGalvatron that a Custodes would roughly be the equivalent to maybe a sergeant.

According to their author the one's in the First Heretic are quite exceptional, or at least Vendatha is. However, he never backed this notion up in the actual novel. You'll have to track him down online for more on that. As it's never stated it's not hard to see why people get the wrong end of the stick and feel that all Custodes are on par with these guys, but imo it would be an incorrect assumption to make. With a bit of an update to 5E, the Rogue Trader rules could be a viable template. I'd also recommend the set at Tempus Fugitives for roles like the Companions.

Thanks for the link

Omegus wrote:A good chunk of Thousand Sons that died on Prospero did so when their own powers went out of control/they exploded/that titan exploded. Until then, they were schooling Custodians, Silent Sisters and Space Wolves by the dozen.

completly agree, i was refering to certain part in collected visions (page 241)
you got to admit that with 30 individuals were able to take down 200 entrenched marines its a feat on its own

Custodians are so far above and beyond marines, that a comparison is just dumb.

im2randomghgh wrote:Custodians are so far above and beyond marines, that a comparison is just dumb.

IIRC didn't you argue that Custodes are almost equal to Primarchs, or superior to Space Marines like Space Marines are to Imperial Guard. Then everybody promptly proved you wrong...


Ultimately, Custodes are typically slightly above Astartes in ability it seems, but not to a particularly significant level, they are different but so similar at the same time. As it said in one of the HH novels "Generally, custodes were larger and more powerful than Astartes, but the differences were only noticeably significant in a few specific cases. No one would be foolish enough to predict the outcome of a contest between an Astartes and a custodes.", this was shown when they were slightly outclassed by Possessed for example IMHO.
Vendatha was clearly a skilled Custodian, ADB said so himself. I think he'd like Lucius is to his fellow Astartes in exceptionally skilled in martial combat.

Half of you guys are just making gak up. Im halfway through the first heretic, and I did 100 pages today!

Custodes ARE harder than SM, it says so right there in black and white. They don't fight as cohesively, they are individual warriors not soldiers, but they are AMAZING warriors. Argel Tal is amazed by how tough they are. He is sat stunned watching one "killing and killing and killing"

That's pretty much exactly what it says.

And people say the same thing about Space Marines, and Space Marines can say the same thing about other Space Marines too.
Custodians are better than the ordinary Astartes, but they're not to particularly big level IMO. I'd imagine them to be similar or just above a Veteran Space Marine in terms of ability.