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mattyrm wrote:Half of you guys are just making gak up. Im halfway through the first heretic, and I did 100 pages today!

Custodes ARE harder than SM, it says so right there in black and white. They don't fight as cohesively, they are individual warriors not soldiers, but they are AMAZING warriors. Argel Tal is amazed by how tough they are. He is sat stunned watching one "killing and killing and killing"

That's pretty much exactly what it says.

Have you missed something? Maybe, the thread? I think we're all in agreement that Custodes are exceptional, but they aren't "Like the Astartes are to the Imperial Guard, the Cutodes are to the Astartes". They're Sergeants and Captains, and that's just the standard. Individually they're the best, but they're outmatched by Astartes in a real war, but not in the sparring cages.
Don't swear please, and actually detail the "made up stuff" if you believe some stuff is hyperbole and conjecture.

Just Dave wrote: I'd imagine them to be similar or just above a Veteran Space Marine in terms of ability.

Tal is a veteran, and he is in awe of how good a warrior the custodes he is watching is. Its also him who makes the analogy and says "let the wolves fight alongside the lions"

Id say that's a pretty good analogy from him. A Lion could kill 5 or 6 wolves, but a pack will pull it apart. Id say a tactical squad could take one out with a couple of losses.

mattyrm wrote:

Just Dave wrote: I'd imagine them to be similar or just above a Veteran Space Marine in terms of ability.

Tal is a veteran, and he is in awe of how good a warrior the custodes he is watching is. Its also him who makes the analogy and says "let the wolves fight alongside the lions"

Id say that's a pretty good analogy from him. A Lion could kill 5 or 6 wolves, but a pack will pull it apart. Id say a tactical squad could take one out with a couple of losses.

In awe? When is he in awe? He pities them for not having the camaraderie that he has with his brothers, that the Custodes are weaker because of this. He's perhaps in awe of their skill with a blade, but again, we're pretty much in agreement that it's where the Custodes are superior. On the battlefield, they'd be outmatched by the Astartes.

iproxtaco wrote:

Don't swear please

Since when is gak swearing?

If I miraculously bypass the swear filter, you can whinge at me, until then I reserve the right to fething swear.

Put me on your ignore list If you cant deal with fictional swear words from the 40k universe.


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iproxtaco wrote:

mattyrm wrote:

Just Dave wrote: I'd imagine them to be similar or just above a Veteran Space Marine in terms of ability.

Tal is a veteran, and he is in awe of how good a warrior the custodes he is watching is. Its also him who makes the analogy and says "let the wolves fight alongside the lions"

Id say that's a pretty good analogy from him. A Lion could kill 5 or 6 wolves, but a pack will pull it apart. Id say a tactical squad could take one out with a couple of losses.

In awe? When is he in awe? He pities them for not having the camaraderie that he has with his brothers, that the Custodes are weaker because of this. He's perhaps in awe of their skill with a blade, but again, we're pretty much in agreement that it's where the Custodes are superior. On the battlefield, they'd be outmatched by the Astartes.

Oh and its (Page 128 on my Kindle)

"The custodes leader was oblivious as he led the advance, his conic helm crested with a plume of red horsehair. In his hands, an immense two handed sword spun in blurring arcs, rising and falling, stabbing and carving. People tumbled away from him, all of them falling to pieces in his wake. He killed and killed and killed, never missing a lethal strike, never slowing in his advance. "Aquillon" said Argel Tal from his vantage point. He shook his head as he spoke the name. Unfeigned awe softened his voice. "Ive never seen a custodian fight"

AWE. Unfeigned awe, the same type you should have for me because I just schooled you.

Go and read the book.

I have a question, a friend told me that they wear no Armour on their chests? and tattooed muscles - true or false???

ps they should make these

http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/File:CustodesGrav-Rhino.jpg

yevix wrote:I have a question, a friend told me that they wear no Armour on their chests? and tattooed muscles - true or false???

ps they should make these

http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/File:CustodesGrav-Rhino.jpg

This is how they look when milling around in the imperial palace. Then they go have their chests waxed and armor put on...

Kind of. In 40K (rather than 30K when the Custodes were active), they don't wear armour, so you could say that...

mattyrm wrote:

iproxtaco wrote:

Don't swear please

Since when is gak swearing?

If I miraculously bypass the swear filter, you can whinge at me, until then I reserve the right to fething swear.

Put me on your ignore list If you cant deal with fictional swear words from the 40k universe.

To be fair, I agree Gak isn't swearing and nor is it something to be offended by, nonetheless there's no real need.

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iproxtaco wrote:

mattyrm wrote:

Just Dave wrote: I'd imagine them to be similar or just above a Veteran Space Marine in terms of ability.

Tal is a veteran, and he is in awe of how good a warrior the custodes he is watching is. Its also him who makes the analogy and says "let the wolves fight alongside the lions"

Id say that's a pretty good analogy from him. A Lion could kill 5 or 6 wolves, but a pack will pull it apart. Id say a tactical squad could take one out with a couple of losses.

In awe? When is he in awe? He pities them for not having the camaraderie that he has with his brothers, that the Custodes are weaker because of this. He's perhaps in awe of their skill with a blade, but again, we're pretty much in agreement that it's where the Custodes are superior. On the battlefield, they'd be outmatched by the Astartes.

Oh and its (Page 128 on my Kindle)

"The custodes leader was oblivious as he led the advance, his conic helm crested with a plume of red horsehair. In his hands, an immense two handed sword spun in blurring arcs, rising and falling, stabbing and carving. People tumbled away from him, all of them falling to pieces in his wake. He killed and killed and killed, never missing a lethal strike, never slowing in his advance. "Aquillon" said Argel Tal from his vantage point. He shook his head as he spoke the name. Unfeigned awe softened his voice. "Ive never seen a custodian fight"

AWE. Unfeigned awe, the same type you should have for me because I just schooled you.

Go and read the book.

I'd imagine he's read the book tbh, all of it, but that's speculation.
Nonetheless, whilst yes, he does express awe, that can be explained due to how he'd never seen a custodian fight; slightly similar to when people 1st witness Astartes fight.
The same book however demonstrates how only a minor amount of daemonic possession is needed for an astartes to match this veteran custodian, who (as I said) would otherwise be slightly superior. I think most people agree, in close combat a Custodian is superior, because he's trained for it, Space Marines are trained to excel in all areas rather than just one.
A HH novel also states, as I quoted, how it'd be foolish to put money on a combat between an astartes and custodian.

Astartes and Custodes go through a very similar process, albeit with notable differences. The end result is that Custodians are slightly physically superior to an astartes, superior in one-to-one and close combat, but not as balanced in their abilities or unity as a squad.

Awe and similar emotions have been shown by astartes when they've seen certain other astartes fight, such as witnessing Space Wolves or World Eaters.

Background in 40K is mutable and open to interpretation; very few things is concrete and custodes are part of this. However, it's been repeatedly stated that Custodes are marginally superior to an astartes (as I said), but not to a major extent. Background in the HH series has only supported this, within A Thousand Sons, Tales of Heresy, First Heretic etc.

flota wrote:

Omegus wrote:A good chunk of Thousand Sons that died on Prospero did so when their own powers went out of control/they exploded/that titan exploded. Until then, they were schooling Custodians, Silent Sisters and Space Wolves by the dozen.

completly agree, i was refering to certain part in collected visions (page 241)
you got to admit that with 30 individuals were able to take down 200 entrenched marines its a feat on its own

Collected Visions has multiple contradictions with the HH books, so I don't know how valid it is. There was nothing "entrenched" about the Thousand Sons, some of them were in their skivvies when the attack started.


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im2randomghgh wrote:Custodians are so far above and beyond marines, that a comparison is just dumb.

Your level of fanwank is disturbing.

mattyrm wrote:Half of you guys are just making gak up. Im halfway through the first heretic, and I did 100 pages today!

Custodes ARE harder than SM, it says so right there in black and white. They don't fight as cohesively, they are individual warriors not soldiers, but they are AMAZING warriors. Argel Tal is amazed by how tough they are. He is sat stunned watching one "killing and killing and killing"

That's pretty much exactly what it says.

Someone here posted a link where the AUTHOR of the novel in question says that they were exceptional examples (which makes sense, I suppose, since they were sent to babysit a Primarch who was severely out of favor).

from what they show in the books they are not stronger but faster and better trained one v one

Omegus wrote:Someone here posted a link where the AUTHOR of the novel in question says that they were exceptional examples (which makes sense, I suppose, since they were sent to babysit a Primarch who was severely out of favor).

Oh and that conversation got better. I'm an advocate of both the Custodians and the Grey Knights, not one with contemptuous bias for just one side. So it's always woth keeping tabs when a BL author gets in a the subject too. He went on to dismiss the idea that Custodes are definitely superior to GKs, as often perpetuated on these online forums and even favoured the GKs (at least in 40k setting). Considering BL authors sit in on discussions with the GW creative honchos and then uses these meetings to assist their writing - as this one no doubt has been doing with his upcoming GK novel - I can only believe that there's some validity behind his claims. He at least holds more authority on the matter than any forum-troll who just assumes gold = better.
Besides, don't they know platinum smites gold?

I'd be inclined to go with Greyish's view (Thanks for the link, by the way - very informative.), and to emphasise that Custodes' and Astartes' relative capabilities are very inconsistently portrayed in the Horus Heresy series. Arguing interminably about the question seems as such rather futile.

So far as written rules go - and they are the only directly comparable measurement to which we have access - according to their profile in Rogue Trader, the Custodes are not only significantly better than Astartes (particularly considering the latter had only T3 at the time), but with two wounds and two attacks a Custodian would still be substantially more powerful than even a Veteran Marine of the period (or strictly, of a year or so later when the rules for Terminators were written).

English Assassin wrote:Arguing interminably about the question seems as such rather futile..

Where would the internet be without futile, interminable arguments?

mattyrm wrote:Unfeigned awe softened his voice. "Ive never seen a custodian fight"

AWE. Unfeigned awe, the same type you should have for me because I just schooled you.

Go and read the book.

Yes, awe because he had never seen a Custodes fight before, like the awe a mortal might have at meeting a Primarch. If you then read further on Argel Tal then goes on to explain how their fighting style is flawed.

But you would know that wouldn't you as you've read the book

Omegus wrote:

English Assassin wrote:Arguing interminably about the question seems as such rather futile..

Where would the internet be without futile, interminable arguments?

Forums would be rather boring and pointless places if everyone agreed all the time as well. Are Custodes the awesomest? Yes! Are Grey Knights the awesomest? Yes! Which chapter is the bestest? Yes.. um I mean .. er ...

Greyish wrote:

Omegus wrote:Someone here posted a link where the AUTHOR of the novel in question says that they were exceptional examples (which makes sense, I suppose, since they were sent to babysit a Primarch who was severely out of favor).

Oh and that conversation got better. I'm an advocate of both the Custodians and the Grey Knights, not one with contemptuous bias for just one side. So it's always woth keeping tabs when a BL author gets in a the subject too. He went on to dismiss the idea that Custodes are definitely superior to GKs, as often perpetuated on these online forums and even favoured the GKs (at least in 40k setting). Considering BL authors sit in on discussions with the GW creative honchos and then uses these meetings to assist their writing - as this one no doubt has been doing with his upcoming GK novel - I can only believe that there's some validity behind his claims. He at least holds more authority on the matter than any forum-troll who just assumes gold = better.
Besides, don't they know platinum smites gold?

I'd imagine it's more a case of one-on-one, Custodes would again have the upper hand as a result of their martial prowess, but Grey Knights have considerable psychic ability, force weapons and unity which would give them the upper hand IMHO.

mattyrm wrote:

iproxtaco wrote:

Don't swear please

Since when is gak swearing?

If I miraculously bypass the swear filter, you can whinge at me, until then I reserve the right to fething swear.

Put me on your ignore list If you cant deal with fictional swear words from the 40k universe.

I'm talking about the word you used before you went and replaced it.

Really, we can't fething swear now? That's fething gak, man, that's fething gak.

Wouldn't the Custodes vary more in combat skill and style than astartes. Marines are basically mirrors of each other because of their shared geneseed. All the marines with a certain geneseed would have similar fighting styles and strengths with slight differences. Custodes being born in test tubes would not be so similar, making it possible for larger differences between skill level. It would explain the inconsistency in the HH series.

Grey Templar wrote:In First Heretic, 3 Custodes get their asses handed to them by 10 posessed marines. Posessed who had been already killed by Corax and then came back to life.

Yeah but thats only 3 ever fallen, loads of astartes and GK have fallen but only 3 Custodes...

Omegus wrote:

English Assassin wrote:Arguing interminably about the question seems as such rather futile..

Where would the internet be without futile, interminable arguments?

Significantly smaller.

Pilau Rice wrote:Forums would be rather boring and pointless places if everyone agreed all the time as well.

Agreed, but the arguments here have got rather circular and remarkably ill-tempered.

RogalDorn69 wrote:

Grey Templar wrote:In First Heretic, 3 Custodes get their asses handed to them by 10 posessed marines. Posessed who had been already killed by Corax and then came back to life.

Yeah but thats only 3 ever fallen, loads of astartes and GK have fallen but only 3 Custodes...

Only three. Aside from those other two that were part of their squad, the forty five or so other Custodes that accompanied the Word Bearers, the ones that have died defending the Emperor over the course of the Great Crusade, the ones that died on Prospero, the ones that died defending the Webway gate beneath the Golden Throne, and the ones that died defending the Emperor's Palace during the siege.

Space Marines are bred to fight as a group and would beat Custodians in groups, though a Custodian would beat a Space Marine with ease 1v1.

iproxtaco wrote:

RogalDorn69 wrote:

Grey Templar wrote:In First Heretic, 3 Custodes get their asses handed to them by 10 posessed marines. Posessed who had been already killed by Corax and then came back to life.

Yeah but thats only 3 ever fallen, loads of astartes and GK have fallen but only 3 Custodes...

Only three. Aside from those other two that were part of their squad, the forty five or so other Custodes that accompanied the Word Bearers, the ones that have died defending the Emperor over the course of the Great Crusade, the ones that died on Prospero, the ones that died defending the Webway gate beneath the Golden Throne, and the ones that died defending the Emperor's Palace during the siege.

Ouch,

Here iproxtaco, give this to Dorn.

RogalDorn69 wrote:

Grey Templar wrote:In First Heretic, 3 Custodes get their asses handed to them by 10 posessed marines. Posessed who had been already killed by Corax and then came back to life.

Yeah but thats only 3 ever fallen, loads of astartes and GK have fallen but only 3 Custodes...

Are you saying only three Custodes have ever fallen in battle?

<text redacted; Omegus would like to indicate his disbelief in a manner compliant with Dakka's posting rules --Janthkin>

iproxtaco wrote:

I'm talking about the word you used before you went and replaced it.

Fiction.

What word did I replace?

The swear filter stops actual swearing.

You basically insulted me "OMG! read the thread much lol" kinda thing, then attempted to pretend you were offended by the word gak, like some sort of bizarre passive aggressive, that smiles all the time and says please and thank you alot while he is mugging you, but complains to the police if you dare to fight back.

You were rude, then you got schooled, just suck it up and deal with it like a man.






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Pilau Rice wrote:
Yes, awe because he had never seen a Custodes fight before, like the awe a mortal might have at meeting a Primarch. If you then read further on Argel Tal then goes on to explain how their fighting style is flawed.

But you would know that wouldn't you as you've read the book

Obviously, because its three sentences after the text that I sat and typed in.

Could a mortal fight a Primarch? Tal says they look "wrong" despite how impressive they fight, and soon realises that the flaw is that they don't fight cohesively, they are warriors, not soldiers. It doesn't mean he thinks they aren't amazing fighters. Tal actually calls them "Lions" and the word bearers "Wolves"

Can a Wolf fight a Lion on it's own?

As I said, Im not massively into fanboi fights over fiction, I just find it annoying that people can read the same book and come to ridiculously different opinions when it is right there in black and white. This gak were reading ain't Ulysses.

Quite clearly an individual custodes is tougher than an individual Space Marine, every single aspect of the book points that way, the Space Marines great strength comes from their enhanced bodies, but mainly from their brothers, from the pack, just like a wolf.

So clearly, a group of SM could beat a custode's, but one on one a custode's would easily beat a SM right? We are singing off the same song sheet surely?

If you didn't get that from the book, then you really cant have read the book properly.

mattyrm wrote:

iproxtaco wrote:

I'm talking about the word you used before you went and replaced it.

Fiction.

What word did I replace?

The swear filter stops actual swearing.

You basically insulted me "OMG! read the thread much lol" kinda thing, then attempted to pretend you were offended by the word gak, like some sort of bizarre passive aggressive, that smiles all the time and says please and thank you alot while he is mugging you, but complains to the police if you dare to fight back.

You were rude, then you got schooled, just suck it up and deal with it like a man.

Well I cant say it obviously, but I know what was there before any edits or filters changed. I just find it odd that you swoop in after three pages, say people are making stuff up, but then don't actually add anything at all besides repeating something what has already been said a few times in this and another thread by other people.

Custodes wipe the floor with Space Marines in single combat.

Argel Tal, only gets the upper hand in a sparring match when he is possessed.

As for the Possessed Word Bearers;

The Gal Vorbak are almost wiped out by Corax, only a few remain, they do not come back to life. The remaining Gal Vorbak then kill off the last custodes accompanying the legion.

Hurl a spear into another marines chest? Yes I think they can. Remember that its not just the Custodes strength that allowed him to do that. His weapon is a Guardian Spear. It can already cut through Power Armour like it was butter.

I don't think a marine could throw a glaive with such accuracy.

Fast moving possessed hit square in the chest.

Medium of Death wrote:I don't think a marine could throw a glaive with such accuracy.

Fast moving possessed hit square in the chest.

they weren't that far away and were moving directly towards the Custode.

I don't know why this section of dakka isn't called 'Rub one out to Space Marine fluff'.