Please explain your reasoning clearly, I would like to hear your reasoning.

They are?
THe only reason i could think of would be because theyre marines. Thats about it.

Because different people have different opinions and thus don't always like the same things?

Generally it seems to be their background mostly, they seem all over the place. I'd go in more detail, but this thread will likely show up again next week.

People also seem to hate how rules-wise they're normal marines with a bit of a boost in power at a slightly cheaper price tag. Lots of reasons I guess, but it applies to anything really.

Yet another "Why the Hate" thread.
I agree with Wot Not_U said.
If people must slate
If they really do hate
They are not quite right in the head

I think it's more the current Long Fang/Razorspam/Thunderwolf Calvary netlist business that gets people's blood up. It'll be popular until something else comes along.

Myself, I like Spacewolves, I'm just not a fan of Thunderwolf Cavlary. I just happen to think that the genetically engineered super-human giant with the mechanically augmented tank armour, automatic rifle that shoots guided missiles and the giant sledge hammer that has built in lightning is sufficiently cool without having to ride on a giant wolf. That's just my opinion though, I could be wrong.

Its simple math, space wolves can do anything that any other marine(or otherwise) army can do, but better, for less.

Their points costs, the current meta, also space vikings.

Their recent fluff goes against what I liked about them. They come of as hypocritical wolf viking wolves who firing heavy weapons by smell, instead of just space vikings.

Yeah, its a twofold issue. One is gameplay wise, Space Wolves are arguably the most powerful army, because of their cheap costs and spammy net lists that everyone uses, making it less fun to play against them.

Fluffwise, well, most people think Space Marines riding giant wolves is just a tad too ridiculous, and makes them seem silly.

Edit: I personally don't hate them, and agree with the above posters that most of the people who foam at the mouth at mention of their name are just overreacting.

Botten3 wrote:Please explain your reasoning clearly, I would like to hear your reasoning.

I like them?

But I think it is generally because they have the most marines ( around 12.000 ), bigger fleet ( even from the Segmentum fleet ), some kind of weird faith ( they even battle SoB because of it ) and because they are sometimes dickheads... ( they are compared to furies to )

But come on guys...how can someone hate, crazy, drunk space vikings? They are pure awesome...

every one plays them, their spammy and have stupid fluff :/

And their furies....

@lledway what do you mean spammy net lists? what's that?

I would assume a list found on the net that spams something - in the case of Space Wolves, Long Fangs and Razorbacks.

I like Space Wolves, but that doesn't say much because I actually play them. The main reason that people at my FLGS hate them is because, to quote a friend of mine, "Space Wolves are so powerful and so much better than Marines that they had to be cheaper." A couple of their units are cheaper than their Marine equivalent, and stronger than them. A big source of rage at my store is the fact that Long Fangs can take 5 heavy weapons, and at a far cheaper price than the C:SM Devastator squads.

Botten3 wrote:Please explain your reasoning clearly, I would like to hear your reasoning.

A few reasons

In terms of gameplay? Woefully undercosted units that are inexplicably better than just about everyone else's equivalents and typically cheaper to boot. Rune Priests, Long Fangs, and Grey Hunters primarily. A 10 strong CSM squad with 2 meltas and a Powerfist champ along with an Icon of Chaos Glory (to approximate ATSKNF) is 220pts. A 9 strong GH squad with a meltagun plus a WG sergeant sporting a Combi Melta and a Powerfist is 183pts but also has the incredibly powerful Counterattack USR, all for 37pts less. The CSM squad is similarly equipped with roughly similar Morale status, but lacks the very powerful Counterattack USR and costs ~20% more.

The army list also really incentivizes armies that play more like Iron Warriors or Imperial Guard than what most would normally think of when they think Space Wolves. Most people think bloody combats and mighty heroes when they think of Space Wolves, not armies sporting half a dozen or more tanks, sometimes double digits of tanks, with more long range anti-tank guns than most IG armies that sit there and blast away their opponents with heavy weapons and psychic powers (hooray 15 split fire BS4 krak missiles in just over 400pts!)

It doesn't help that this has made them a massive bandwagon army. At the last Adepticon, the most popular codex in use was Space Wolves, but literally 90% of the "SW" armies present were "counts-as" armies, meaning people using other SM armies with SW rules.

In terms of fluff? Much of it is so silly/ridiculous it borders on bad Twilight internet fanfic status (firing artillery by smell...then rushing forward with said artillery to watch the explosions), then there's the naming conventions (the Wolf King Canis Wolfborne, Lord of the Wolfkin of the Wolf Guard of the Space Wolves, wielding his Wolfclaws while mounted upon his mighty Wolf, bearing the Wolf Tail Talisman and Wolf Tooth Necklace and hero of the saga of the Wolfkin etc ad nauseum). Additionally, their fluff is all over the place in multiple contradictory ways, and it just doesn't mesh well. They want them to be everything. They try to be the Rough Guys with a Heart of Gold, the Emperor's Executioners, Space Vikings, Werewolves, Drunken Rascals, Merciless Space Berzerker Butchers, Space Pranksters and Wise Star Men all at the same time and it just comes together in the absolute worst way.

Not to mention that the rampant hypocrisy in some of their fluff regarding Psykers, which as another poster put in it another thread, basically made them Space Hipsters (Psykers are bad, we don't use them and neither should you, we have Rune Priests that are *nothing* like Psykers, they harness the native power of Fenris, you've probably never heard of it...)

The SW's of course *have* to be better than other marines to differentiate themselves. They of course don't have devastators, they have Long Fangs which are *so* much more wise and experienced (and have more guns, cost fewer points, and can split fire). They don't have Tac Marines, they have Grey Hunters (which are cheaper than normal marines but have more options/flexibility and have much cheaper upgrade options in addition to more standard wargear and Counterattack and are much more min/maxable). There's really nothing the SW's lack, and much of the stuff they share with other SM's is simply better just for the sake of being different, in a gigantically hipster way.

If GW would fix the costs/abilities, stop equating *different* with needing to be *better*, design the army so that it incentivizes armies that don't look like IW gunlines, and decide *what* they want the SW's to actually be, they might not be so bad. As is, they come off as gigantically hypocritical, contradictory, confused, inconsistent and grossly exaggerate in terms of fluff, and on the table are simply "Marines...but BETTER!"

Brother Coa wrote:
I like them?

But I think it is generally because they have the most marines ( around 12.000 ), bigger fleet ( even from the Segmentum fleet ), some kind of weird faith ( they even battle SoB because of it ) and because they are sometimes dickheads... ( they are compared to furies to )

Where on earth are you pulling those insane numbers and fleet sizes from? Certainly not any SW codex or BL book I've read. They're nowhere near that size.

But come on guys...how can someone hate, crazy, drunk space vikings? They are pure awesome...

Because they aren't really Space Vikings, and the crazy drunk part is there pretty much just there peripherally for comedic relief and makes them look silly instead of badass?

Brother Coa wrote:

Botten3 wrote:Please explain your reasoning clearly, I would like to hear your reasoning.

I like them?

But I think it is generally because they have the most marines ( around 12.000 ), bigger fleet ( even from the Segmentum fleet ), some kind of weird faith ( they even battle SoB because of it ) and because they are sometimes dickheads... ( they are compared to furies to )

But come on guys...how can someone hate, crazy, drunk space vikings? They are pure awesome...

They don't number around 12,000 and their fleet is not bigger than the Segmentum Fleet.

juraigamer wrote:Their points costs, the current meta, also space vikings.

I wouldn't mind if they were actually space vikings. Now they're just space pups with a dash of viking. Everything is wolf this, wolf that, yiff yiff yiff. For a second there, I almost thought Mat Ward named the wargear.

NB: Furies = Erinyes the "Kindly Ones" who have snakes for hair, leathery wings and chase after chaps like Orestes seeking vengeance.

Furries = Dressing up as an animal.

Space Wolves don't dress up in cossies afaik so maybe they are closer to furies that furries after all.

Chibi Bodge-Battle wrote:NB: Furies = Erinyes the "Kindly Ones" who have snakes for hair, leathery wings and chase after chaps like Orestes seeking vengeance.
Furries = Dressing up as an animal.
Space Wolves don't dress up in cossies afaik so maybe they are closer to furies that furries after all.

I was not aware that there was a difference. And how do you know space wolves don't cosplay the skin of their dead dogs while doing naughty things in their dorms of the battle fortresses?

I don't think that they're overpowered...some units are grossly undercosted but they use up slots for which there is little competition (Heavy Support). Long Fangs are really no different than Vendettas in that you're well served to max out your FOC slots on one undercosted unit. The rest of their units, the upgrades add up VERY quickly.

It's not hate for me at all, I just think that the Wolfen Wolf of the Wolfy Wolf nomenclature is a bit Herpen Derp of the Herpity Derp.

iproxtaco wrote:and their fleet is not bigger than the Segmentum Fleet.

They can beat it, though. Segmentum Pacificus Navy got nothing on the Wolves and their fleet of Battle Barges.

As far as the naming convention is concerned, though, one must cut them some slack - at least as far as wargear is concerned. This just seems to be a general trend amongst GW to make it easier to identify Chapter-specific weaponry and equipment and is not limited to the SW.
Of course that doesn't make some of those titles sound any better.

Lynata wrote:

iproxtaco wrote:and their fleet is not bigger than the Segmentum Fleet.

They can beat it, though. Segmentum Pacificus Navy got nothing on the Wolves and their fleet of Battle Barges.

Battle Barges aren't designed for ship to ship warfare, they are planetary assault ships. When facing an Imperial Navy Battleship which designed for ship to ship warfare, they are at a distinct disadvantage and must rely on attempting to board their opponents, and at best, they've got half a dozen battlebarges and maybe a dozen strike cruisers and perhaps as many escorts. A Segmentum fleet consists of thousands of Cruisers, Battlecruisers, Battleships and many more escorts.

They have 15 IIRC, most are not Battle Barges.

Potentially awesome fluff fluffed out to atmosphere choking levels.

No more Lupus Wolfsteethfangfurson, please.

Vaktathi wrote:Battle Barges aren't designed for ship to ship warfare, they are planetary assault ships. When facing an Imperial Navy Battleship which designed for ship to ship warfare, they are at a distinct disadvantage and must rely on attempting to board their opponents, and at best, they've got half a dozen battlebarges and maybe a dozen strike cruisers and perhaps as many escorts. A Segmentum fleet consists of thousands of Cruisers, Battlecruisers, Battleships and many more escorts.

Yes, well, tell that to whoever wrote the Plague of Unbelief background. :(

I very much agree with your assessment, as I too believe these are the rules of the setting, but as usual the SW seem to be an exception from these rules.

Hrm, is that a book or a Chapter Approved story? I don't recall too much on the plague of unbelief aside from the mention in the Eye of Terror codex, though that could be a deficiency on my part. That said, yeah, a lot of GW authors don't exactly make much attempt at consistency

Vaktathi wrote:Hrm, is that a book or a Chapter Approved story? I don't recall too much on the plague of unbelief aside from the mention in the Eye of Terror codex, though that could be a deficiency on my part. That said, yeah, a lot of GW authors don't exactly make much attempt at consistency

4 wasted pages in the 2E SoB Codex, of all things. Lexicanum actually has a copy of that story here, if you want to give it a read. Goes to show that it's not always just BL that is exaggerating things - I guess I'll just chalk it up to a very thick plot armour. :S

And how do you know space wolves don't cosplay the skin of their dead dogs while doing naughty things in their dorms of the battle fortresses?

It isn't written in the fluff afaik. Though it is possible in the dark grim world of 40K
But I am as pure as the driven snow of Fenris so my mind is incapable of such lewd thoughts.
*butter not melting in gob*

iproxtaco wrote:
They don't number around 12,000 and their fleet is not bigger than the Segmentum Fleet.

They have 12 great companies, each one is roughly the size of Space Marine Chapter ( around 12.000 ).

Maybe not bigger but they can definitively beat it with their fleet.

Brother Coa wrote:

iproxtaco wrote:
They don't number around 12,000 and their fleet is not bigger than the Segmentum Fleet.

They have 12 great companies, each one is roughly the size of Space Marine Chapter ( around 12.000 ).

Maybe not bigger but they can definitively beat it with their fleet.

Wrong. Each Great Company does not number around the the size of an entire Chapter. They have more in total, not that much.

Brother Coa wrote:
They have 12 great companies, each one is roughly the size of Space Marine Chapter ( around 12.000 ).

Where on earth are you getting that? The SW codex says that Ragnar's Great Company, as the second mightiest behind Grimnar's, numbers merely 200. So if the mightiest are roughly 200 strong and the others are smaller, perhaps 100-150, then roughly 2,000 Marines sounds appropriate.

Maybe not bigger but they can definitively beat it with their fleet.

No, they can't. They have at tops twenty vessels designed for planetary assault and escort (likely fewer), a fraction of which are Battle Barges and perhaps half are Strike Cruisers (which are lighter/smaller/less heavily armed than IN Cruisers), they aren't going to take on even a sector battlegroup with that (which usually numbers 75 or so vessels designed for fighting other starships)

Brother Coa wrote:

Maybe not bigger but they can definitively beat it with their fleet.

Are you actually saying the Space Wolves fleet could beat the entirety of the Segmentum fleet? It was stated earlier so I'll just quote it again:

Vaktathi wrote:
Battle Barges aren't designed for ship to ship warfare, they are planetary assault ships. When facing an Imperial Navy Battleship which designed for ship to ship warfare, they are at a distinct disadvantage and must rely on attempting to board their opponents, and at best, they've got half a dozen battlebarges and maybe a dozen strike cruisers and perhaps as many escorts. A Segmentum fleet consists of thousands of Cruisers, Battlecruisers, Battleships and many more escorts.

Space Wolves wouldn't have a chance against even a quarter of a Segmuntum fleet.

Well, personally, I like them. The only reason I don't play them is that I don't enjoy their color scheme. Some people find them ridiculous, but it's all a matter of perspective. Faster than light travel that takes place through imaginationland is okay, I guess, so long as no one is riding a big wolf around. Or saying 'wolf' too much. But magic is perfectly reasonable.

It's all a matter of personal taste. I'm not going to knock anyone else for what they like. (I don't like Eldar, but I don't see a reason to go on anti-Eldar tirades all the time.) If you play Space Wolves, just ignore it.

Vaktathi wrote:

Brother Coa wrote:
They have 12 great companies, each one is roughly the size of Space Marine Chapter ( around 12.000 ).

Where on earth are you getting that? The SW codex says that Ragnar's Great Company, as the second mightiest behind Grimnar's, numbers merely 200. So if the mightiest are roughly 200 strong and the others are smaller, perhaps 100-150, then roughly 2,000 Marines sounds appropriate.

Check out the Battlefleet Gothic stats on SM ships versus IN ships, and the numbers involved. They're free from GW on the website.

A typical SM chapter will have 1-3 Battle Barges, 4-12 Strike Cruisers, and about as many smaller Escorts. SM and IN escorts are generally the same vessel types, Strike Cruisers generally will not stand toe-to-toe with IN cruisers (they are designed to get SM's to battle and provide fire support, not destroy enemy starships), and Battlebarges only match IN Battleships because of their very powerful boarding capabilities. You'd need 5-7 SM chapters to rival a Sector Battlefleet.

A Segmentum is huge, comprised of hundreds of Sector battlefleets each of which on average have about 75 capital ships (which actually is a fairly ludicrously low number of ships for the stated area a Sector covers, you'd realistically need tens of thousands to adequately patrol/protect such areas) in addition to probably double or triple that number of escorts. It would take the massed might of the entirety of the Adeptus Astartes to match a single Segmentum Battlefleet, even then I'm not sure it'd be even.


Also, remember that the Ecclesiarchy doesn't exactly have fleets of its own beyond transport vessels (nor are they renowned for battlefield command ability, fervor/fanaticism/devotion yes, but not exactly competent military command capability) and the Sisters of Battle aren't the largest of forces either nor do they command any sort of weapons/training/experience for battles involving siege/aerial/space warfare.

Vaktathi wrote:Check out the Battlefleet Gothic stats on SM ships versus IN ships, and the numbers involved. They're free from GW on the website.

A typical SM chapter will have 1-3 Battle Barges, 4-12 Strike Cruisers, and about as many smaller Escorts. SM and IN escorts are generally the same vessel types, Strike Cruisers generally will not stand toe-to-toe with IN cruisers (they are designed to get SM's to battle and provide fire support, not destroy enemy starships), and Battlebarges only match IN Battleships because of their very powerful boarding capabilities. You'd need 5-7 SM chapters to rival a Sector Battlefleet.

A Segmentum is huge, comprised of hundreds of Sector battlefleets each of which on average have about 75 capital ships (which actually is a fairly ludicrously low number of ships for the stated area a Sector covers, you'd realistically need tens of thousands to adequately patrol/protect such areas) in addition to probably double or triple that number of escorts. It would take the massed might of the entirety of the Adeptus Astartes to match a single Segmentum Battlefleet, even then I'm not sure it'd be even.


Also, remember that the Ecclesiarchy doesn't exactly have fleets of its own beyond transport vessels (nor are they renowned for battlefield command ability, fervor/fanaticism/devotion yes, but not exactly competent military command capability) and the Sisters of Battle aren't the largest of forces either nor do they command any sort of weapons/training/experience for battles involving siege/aerial/space warfare.

The 50-75 ships already include escorts if i read BFG right. Still, even an escort is a kilometre+ long warship than bristles with weapon batteries and will easily have the firepower to level a city.
Still, a segmentum will have about 200000 planets with between 2000 and 1000 sectors each ( assuming a sector has between 100-200 planets ) which will all have at least 50 warships ( excluding planetary defence vessels ). Thats at least 50000 spaceships, 25 times the maximum number of Spacewolfs

Regarding the op's question, the Spacewolfs had the potential for awsome fluff. What we got was juvenile wish fulfillment which approached the level of realy bad fanfic. These days they seem to have a permanent "get out of jail" card for no matter what kind of nonsense they do, there will be no real consequences.
Abnett's idea of turning the smallest legion into the Emprah's executioners ( wtf? ) is also one of his worse ideas.

Still, the basic idea of Vikings in Space! is still a nice one, it is just the current execution which is severely lacking.

I hate them because of their fluff. First I think their fluff is pretty dumb, Plus I play Dark Angels and them and the Wolves dont really get along to well because of how dumb Leman Russ is. Also I hate the Rocket Launcher spam that Space Wolves have. I think its overkill. Still after a long time after their codex came out Wolves are still extremely tough. They got such a good 'dex its not even funny.

They're furries.
They're a strong codex.

There are a lot of reasons.

I could go on about them being less expensive yet better than other marines, but that's not what really makes me dislike them.

It's their fluff. Canis Wolfborn has been mentioned. Their ttly ossim special snowflake qualities, like firing artillery by smell and rushing forward with the artillery to watch the explosions, they are schizophrenic in their theme, as someone else mentioned earlier. They're blatantly hypocritical (No seriously, I loved the "Space Hipsters" analogy Vaktathi, mind if I use it? ) and ignorant in their views of psykers. Oh, and they somehow are not asexual, apparently, because feth year REAL MEN do wmnz!!! The fluff, similar to their tabletop incarnation, of course treats their equivelants to other marine units as being obviously superior. They have plot armour that is thick even by Marine standards. But you know, I could forgive all of that... If they weren't so incredibly boring. The Space Wolf codex was one of the most boring reads in recent memory, how GW managed to make a concept like "Space Vikings" come off as so dull is insanity... And that's another thing, where exactly is the "viking" aspect? This is more a peeve of mine, what the hell makes them vikings? Because they drink ale and have Nordic names? Viking was a profession, one the Space Wolves do not fit.

Void__Dragon wrote: They're blatantly hypocritical (No seriously, I loved the "Space Hipsters" analogy Vaktathi, mind if I use it? )

I didn't actually come up with it, LoneLictor came up with it in a great post here http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/120/383580.page

LoneLictor wrote:

Oh my god. I just realized something. Space Wolves are hipsters.

"We don't use pyskers, but rather priests who summon the innate power of Fenris. You probably haven't heard of it."

"Yeah, we don't use the Codex Astartes. We even have a 13th Company. You probably haven't heard of it."

"Our geneseed gives us extralong K-9 teeth and more body hair and turns some of us into Wolfren. You probably haven't heard of them."

Some of you are complaining about Rocket Spam, in which I don't do

Vaktathi wrote:

Void__Dragon wrote: They're blatantly hypocritical (No seriously, I loved the "Space Hipsters" analogy Vaktathi, mind if I use it? )

I didn't actually come up with it, LoneLictor came up with it in a great post here http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/120/383580.page

LoneLictor wrote:

Oh my god. I just realized something. Space Wolves are hipsters.

"We don't use pyskers, but rather priests who summon the innate power of Fenris. You probably haven't heard of it."

"Yeah, we don't use the Codex Astartes. We even have a 13th Company. You probably haven't heard of it."

"Our geneseed gives us extralong K-9 teeth and more body hair and turns some of us into Wolfren. You probably haven't heard of them."

Odd, I read that thread and don't recall that post, or the ones preceding it.

Good stuff though.

Oh this reminds me, forgot to mention this, I can't for the life of me figure out why the Space Wolf chapter has not been declared heretics, considering their blatant pagan beliefs and the times they have actually attacked the Imperium.

Void__Dragon wrote:Oh this reminds me, forgot to mention this, I can't for the life of me figure out why the Space Wolf chapter has not been declared heretics, considering their blatant pagan beliefs and the times they have actually attacked the Imperium.

That's the biggest problem, imho. The lack of consequences.

It's completely okay that they've bashed a few Imperial and Ecclesiarchy heads, sport some of the most obvious geneseed mutation of the entire Astartes, or routinely say "lolno" to the Inquisition - but at some point you'd have to think there would be consequences. But there are none. Ever.

Lynata wrote:

Void__Dragon wrote:Oh this reminds me, forgot to mention this, I can't for the life of me figure out why the Space Wolf chapter has not been declared heretics, considering their blatant pagan beliefs and the times they have actually attacked the Imperium.

That's the biggest problem, imho. The lack of consequences.

It's completely okay that they've bashed a few Imperial and Ecclesiarchy heads, sport some of the most obvious geneseed mutation of the entire Astartes, or routinely say "lolno" to the Inquisition - but at some point you'd have to think there would be consequences. But there are none. Ever.

I think it is because they are the original Legion chapter, actually the one of few who hold the Imperium together in times after the heresy. As that is - they hold the very hard word toward everything in the Imperium.
Trying to declare them as heretics and traitors is the same as trying to declare Imperial Fist or Ultramarines heretics and traitors - it just can't go because that chapters have a heavy mane on themselves.

But the Ultramarines and Imperial Fists haven't attacked friendly forces.

Imperial Fist fired upon Imperial navy when Ultramrines suggest codex Astartes.
And what would happened if HLoT decide to take direct control over Ultaramar?

They only need reason and for now the Imperium only wanted to sniff around Space Wolves, imagine what would happened in they decide to investigate Rock...

Lynata wrote:That's the biggest problem, imho. The lack of consequences.

It's completely okay that they've bashed a few Imperial and Ecclesiarchy heads, sport some of the most obvious geneseed mutation of the entire Astartes, or routinely say "lolno" to the Inquisition - but at some point you'd have to think there would be consequences. But there are none. Ever.

I think you're probably right, it's one of the more annoying bits of the fluff, that they are such special snowflakes they can get away with whatever they damn-well please.

Brother Coa wrote:I think it is because they are the original Legion chapter, actually the one of few who hold the Imperium together in times after the heresy. As that is - they hold the very hard word toward everything in the Imperium.
Trying to declare them as heretics and traitors is the same as trying to declare Imperial Fist or Ultramarines heretics and traitors - it just can't go because that chapters have a heavy mane on themselves.

You're thinking of the Ultramarines. What the hell did the Space Wolves do to hold the Imperium together?

And oddly enough, the Imperial Fists were being declared traitors by Roboute Guilliman for their refusal to accept the Codex Astartes... Something the Space Wolves also refused. Yet were never called out on.

coolyo294 wrote:But the Ultramarines and Imperial Fists haven't attacked friendly forces.

Dark Angels have. Anything happen to them? NOPE

Void__Dragon wrote:You're thinking of the Ultramarines. What the hell did the Space Wolves do to hold the Imperium together?

Like almost everyone else - send their Marines across the galaxy to help defend the Imperium. And answer to distress call for any major event ( Armageddon, Cadia )

And oddly enough, the Imperial Fists were being declared traitors by Roboute Guilliman for their refusal to accept the Codex Astartes... Something the Space Wolves also refused. Yet were never called out on.

SwiftLord14 wrote:

coolyo294 wrote:But the Ultramarines and Imperial Fists haven't attacked friendly forces.

Dark Angels have. Anything happen to them? NOPE

Do you have a source for this happening with it's not in secret because they want to hide their terrible truth?

They arent hated, they are overpowered (well thats is what people voted on poll), but overall I dont hate em, and i dont really like em

iproxtaco wrote:

SwiftLord14 wrote:

coolyo294 wrote:But the Ultramarines and Imperial Fists haven't attacked friendly forces.

Dark Angels have. Anything happen to them? NOPE

Do you have a source for this happening with it's not in secret because they want to hide their terrible truth?

"The Chapter leadership will go to great lengths to ensure that this knowledge does not reach the Imperium at large, even at times going so far as to disobey direct orders from Inquisitors and cause overly curious individuals to "disappear"."

So if you start to dig around Rock - they dig you, in the sky... Only problem is none has ever caught them in that.

Botten3 wrote:Some of you are complaining about Rocket Spam, in which I don't do

well we arent talking about you are we?

Brother Coa wrote:Like almost everyone else - send their Marines across the galaxy to help defend the Imperium. And answer to distress call for any major event ( Armageddon, Cadia )

That's kind of not what I meant. Of course they fight for the Imperium. EVERY Space Marine chapter does.

Brother Coa wrote:That was before they shake hands. Dorn didn't want for another civil war ( now for stupid reason ) and decided that this was probably for the best.
But I bet that they have some secret agreement for Guiliman and Imperium to overlook Space Wolves and Black Templar numbers...

And Dorn accepted the Codex Astartes. The Wolves did not, but no one cared. I guess because they're Space Wolves.

The Black Templar numbers are far beyond Codex Astartes allowance, but the key difference is the Black Templars do not engange in blatantly heretical or traitorous behavior. The Space Wolves do.

iproxtaco wrote:

SwiftLord14 wrote:

coolyo294 wrote:But the Ultramarines and Imperial Fists haven't attacked friendly forces.

Dark Angels have. Anything happen to them? NOPE

Do you have a source for this happening with it's not in secret because they want to hide their terrible truth?

In the Space Wolf Books. Ragnar and his peoples were running after them to see why they were there and being all sneaky and they opened fire on them. Hitting but not killing another Wolf Blade.

I don't like them coz I is Dark angel.


..Nah seriously though, I just don't like their fluff...same reason I don't really like Blood Angels. Having giant genetically altered spacemen isn't enough so they have to make them space vikings and space vampires? they just took the whole thing too far for me...

considering their blatant pagan beliefs and the times they have actually attacked the Imperium.

Two very good reasons to like SW's

Why is Space Vikings bad, when you have Space Knights/Templars/Romans etc?

I can understand some of the raw codex hate. Things seem undercosted. But IMO the IG codex does it worse with Vendettas, Plasma vets, chimeras etc.

However, people like to compare like to like. So they compare them to Codex marines (because the wolves are supposed to be marines). Never mind the what 3 yr age difference. They compare it to the Chaos codex which is 4 years old.

Never mind that since the IG codex every codex (except nids) has been stronger than the Marine and Chaos codex. The wolves are no more OP than IG, BA, GK, and even DE (when played right) to an extent. In fact I feel that the latter codex are quite on par with power. It just sucks for the other 11 codexs that have all come before them. (nids really do get the raw deal on this one)

Fluff... well thats totally a personal taste. You either like that the wolves are not autonomous marine drones like every other chapter presents, or you hate them because they are in fact different than your own pet chapter of marines and should be similar.

As for differences and seemingly contradictions in fluff. Well, there is more than 1 writer for GW fluff and since GW cant afford even an editor, how the hell can anyone expect them to keep someone on staff to make sure things stay congruent. Different writers have different interpetations on how the Wolves should be... and write to what they like, often not seemingly to both looking too deep into what someone else has already written.

Brother Coa wrote:

iproxtaco wrote:

SwiftLord14 wrote:

coolyo294 wrote:But the Ultramarines and Imperial Fists haven't attacked friendly forces.

Dark Angels have. Anything happen to them? NOPE

Do you have a source for this happening with it's not in secret because they want to hide their terrible truth?

"The Chapter leadership will go to great lengths to ensure that this knowledge does not reach the Imperium at large, even at times going so far as to disobey direct orders from Inquisitors and cause overly curious individuals to "disappear"."

So if you start to dig around Rock - they dig you, in the sky... Only problem is none has ever caught them in that.

Good job reading my qusetion , but BrotherOmas has provided. Since it's against the Space Wolves, and didn't kill anyone, I can see why they weren't hunted down. Not a good thing to do, far from it, but nothing compared to the insubordination the Space Wolves show.

Chibi Bodge-Battle wrote:

considering their blatant pagan beliefs and the times they have actually attacked the Imperium.

Two very good reasons to like SW's

Why is Space Vikings bad, when you have Space Knights/Templars/Romans etc?

Why is it good to be special snowflakes who are oh so special they can get away with blatant heresy and insubordination?

They are not Space Vikings. Drinking ale and slapping Nordic names on everything does not a Viking make.

I don't mind them trying to follow a Nordic theme. That's not really the complaint anyone has made, that I can recall.

I would like to point out that the space wolves are not the most numerous Space Marine chapter.

That title is reserved for the Black Templars, numbering an estimated 5-6000 marines.

Most because of the Wolfisms.
Wolf Squad, Wolf marines, Wolf Gaks, Wolf Gits, This wolf, I am a wolf, Twilight Wolfs, and Wolf yadayada

Its kinda annoying I liked them as vikings.

Why is it good to be special snowflakes who are oh so special they can get away with blatant heresy and insubordination?

They are not Space Vikings. Drinking ale and slapping Nordic names on everything does not a Viking make.

I don't mind them trying to follow a Nordic theme. That's not really the complaint anyone has made, that I can recall.

Erm...you are confusing me.
They are not Vikings, okay fine.

But it is not the supporters that use this term. There have been several "I hates em coz dey is Space Vikings"?
The term Space Viking in itself is being used pejoratively from what I can see.

As to the first objection, not all of us give a monkeys about a (fictional) bunch of oppressive idiots that the Imperium is.
Personally I also didn't want Chaos either. A faction that is able to stick its fingers up to the Inquisition sounds good to me.
Your light years may vary
Also I like Nordic myth, so why would Space Wolves (who by your own admission have a nordic theme which is okay) be seen as a bad thing?

Edit:Then I see Ash's post above who likes them as Vikings!

Ash
Honestly don't know but there may have been a conscious borrowing from Nordic myth of the berserker tradition. There are stories of a similar kind, except that the wolf replaces the bear in the battle frenzy.

They do a poor job of being Vikings, they are Cartoony vikings at best. They are to Vikings as Meet the Spartans was to 300.

They don't know if they want to be the good guys, the bad guys, the party guys, the prankster guys, or the dark and mysterious guys, but they want to try to be all of them at the same time, and it ends up looking awful.

Which is, basically, exactly what the Vikings were IRL. They were more than just raiders (since they were making retributive raids against Christian colonies for the sack of their own pagan religious sites... rather than just raping and looting for the hell of it), they were also mercenaries, settlers, colonists, explorers, farmers, fighters, and heavy drinkers/party-goers.

RL Vikings were complex, yo.

At least they have more personality then Ultramarines.

Psienesis wrote:Which is, basically, exactly what the Vikings were IRL. They were more than just raiders (since they were making retributive raids against Christian colonies for the sack of their own pagan religious sites... rather than just raping and looting for the hell of it), they were also mercenaries, settlers, colonists, explorers, farmers, fighters, and heavy drinkers/party-goers.

RL Vikings were complex, yo.

Yes, they were complex and many things, but not in such a contradictory and ridiculous way. Vikings would not have rushed after arrows just to see what happened for the lulz in the heat of battle for instance.

Commisar Wolfie wrote:At least they have more personality then Ultramarines.

Which really isn't saying much

Commisar Wolfie wrote:At least they have more personality then Ultramarines.

As much as this pains me, ya, I'll let space wolves live with that much

Ineed2bucks wrote:

Commisar Wolfie wrote:At least they have more personality then Ultramarines.

As much as this pains me, ya, I'll let space wolves live with that much

I think that is where a lot of hate for SW come from. There just isn't much personality in many of the other marine armies. With the exception of color scheme the only difference between marine armies is a blurb or two that say... so and so is good at lightning raids. So and so are masters of fortifications and prolonged sieges, etc. And thats all the attention that they get to help define their chapters. Also IMO, space marine fluff is boring as hell. They suffer from Superman syndrome. They are popular because they are iconic, not because they are actually interesting. They have too much going for them. They are too invincible, too unstoppable, and truth be told way too one dimensional. Its what happens when you are the poster children.

So, some chapters got named. They were given flaws, they were given something to help make them step forward from the other drones. SW just happened to be one and have been blessed with their own codex, as such 20 or so pages has to be filled with something, so they get little stories and a time line. Yeah BA, DA, BT, and GK get it too. But that doesn't help the Crimson Fist player any. And right now, no matter how you look at it, SW are popular. Thank the HH novels and several other time line publications that seem to be somewhat focusing on the Space Wolves at the moment. If DA, Iron Hands, or Salamanders had such current publications I'm sure people would be looking at them with different eyes.

But at the moment, SW are the going flavor and have just had a lot of attention paid to them weather they deserve it or not.

Well I think SM are colorful enough, ultramarines though are stale, and I like the flaw for BA, it makes them more unique and more human, not being perfect and all.

I love their fluff and the idea behind their warrior archetype.

I hate the things the inexplicably get.

5 Heavies in a Fang squad (and splitfire plus a add-on that may have another heavy) for CHEAP!

4 HQs for NO reason whatsoever

Ugh... lots of other things.

I think the self-crippling adherence to established doctrines and standards gives the Ultramarines way more personality than the Space Wolves and their supposed drawbacks could ever have.

Their geneseed defect works pretty much like vampirism in Twilight in that it just makes their fans like them even more, and of course gives them supercool abilities making them even more "cool" in battle, because being a Space Marine isn't cool enough these days.

I think the true philosophical tragedy lies in what the Ultramarines are often accused of - sacrificing their humanity in order to serve mankind. Being a Space Marine isn't a part-time job. At least it shouldn't be.

Just my two bolt shells, of course.

And for the records, I also liked them as Vikings, once.

SlaveToDorkness wrote:I love their fluff and the idea behind their warrior archetype.

I hate the things the inexplicably get.

5 Heavies in a Fang squad (and splitfire plus a add-on that may have another heavy) for CHEAP!

4 HQs for NO reason whatsoever

Ugh... lots of other things.

The five heavies wouldn't be an issue if the guns were a tad more expensive. The unit concept itself gets a pass because for every guy you kill your loosing your chance for split fire or a heavy weapon. Also all codex marine lists can split fire their devistators as long as they combat squad them. Yeah yeah its more points... about 64 or so but you also get a BS5 shot out of it and 6 ablative wounds.

The 4 HQs is not surprising at all. The old 3rd ed codex required one HQ for every 750 points. So you needed 3 to field 1501 or greater points. Also in the codex itself it says flat out that SW army is fluffy designed to be lead by several heros. Kinda hard to do with only 2 HQ options. Maybe what they should have done was stick with two HQ options but make the Wolf Lord and Iron Priest not count as one of the two HQ choices. I'd love it if we had a way to still take a Ven dread as an HQ without being forced to take Bjorn.

The main hate for the four HQs is that you can take 4 Rune Priests. Maybe they should have had the 0-1 tag attached. But SW was put out in a time where the design philosophy was to not restrict army composition options.

All I have to say to those who call them "spammy" is that most (if not all) competitive lists out there today spam some sort of unit.

Most people hate them because they are cheap efficient marines. However, they lack some things that most marines have. Combat squads, combat tactics, attack bike units, cheap terminators, and drop pods cannot carry dreads. Sure minor things in some peoples eyes but they die just like any other marines.

They're not hated, not by me anyways.

I didn't know they told the Inquisition off, but if they really did, then that's super awesome. The Inquisition is a bunch of gits with their murder of millions to punish a few amongst the many many innocent. I know the Sisters of Battle aren't any better, but that's what custom fluff is for. ^_^

My friend was once interested in them. He's a newb to 40k, and still has yet to put together all of his AoBR stuff he got in January or February of this year, much less play his first game. But he loves the background, and he loves the Space Wolves for how laid back and independent they are.

Myself, I haven't really been interested in their background yet. I remember making my first 10-man Assault Squad from an older Space Wolves kit and a bag of 10 jump packs, waaaay back in 3rd edition. Just because it was cheaper than buying a pair of 5-man Assault Squad kits. More recently, I've used a wolf head from the Space Wolves Pack kit to customize a Chapter Master I built for that friend I mentioned earlier, as a birthday present, though he will never have it in his possession. I used the rest of the kit to make some Honor Guard which might also double as Vanguard Veterans in a pinch. So yeah, I like a lot of their minis. ^_^

Jayden63 wrote:

The five heavies wouldn't be an issue if the guns were a tad more expensive. The unit concept itself gets a pass because for every guy you kill your loosing your chance for split fire or a heavy weapon.

It's odd that an army of viking space berzerkers however has the most heavily armed, most flexible and most adaptive heavy weapons squad in the game in a configuration that couldn't be better for min/max armies.

Also all codex marine lists can split fire their devistators as long as they combat squad them. Yeah yeah its more points... about 64 or so but you also get a BS5 shot out of it and 6 ablative wounds.

70pts more for BA's, 90pts more for C:SM, and they have 1 less Heavy Weapon. When you're talking about fire support units, the ablative wounds don't matter quite as much, and the cost increase is huge. 2 full BA dev squads with missile launchers is 420pts for 8 heavy weapons. 3 full LF squads with missile launchers is 420pts for 15 heavy weapons, double the firepower for the same number of points and able to engage 150-300% more targets.

The main hate for the four HQs is that you can take 4 Rune Priests. Maybe they should have had the 0-1 tag attached.

Or rather just not made them the best psyker HQ's in the game

J Mac wrote:

Most people hate them because they are cheap efficient marines. However, they lack some things that most marines have. Combat squads

not as advantageous given the nature of SW units and Long Fangs still get the primary benefit of that.

combat tactics

Much less useful on troops that have twice as many attacks plus Counterattack

attack bike units

Not a huge loss. Something sure, but not really a "space wolf"-y thing in the first place.

cheap terminators

They have the *cheapest* loyalist terminators in the game, second only to CSM termi's, with more options and Counterattack+ATSKNF. The only thing they can't do is spam TH/SS termi's effectively.

and drop pods cannot carry dreads.

Methinks you need to re-read the SW codex, because reading it in front of me it sure looks like they can put dreads in drop pods.

Sure minor things in some peoples eyes but they die just like any other marines.

while being cheaper, fightier, and generally more capable for fewer points with more (and usually cheaper) options.

Vaktathi wrote:

Jayden63 wrote:

The five heavies wouldn't be an issue if the guns were a tad more expensive. The unit concept itself gets a pass because for every guy you kill your loosing your chance for split fire or a heavy weapon.

It's odd that an army of viking space berzerkers however has the most heavily armed, most flexible and most adaptive heavy weapons squad in the game in a configuration that couldn't be better for min/max armies.

Funny how long fangs are the aged vets of the SW army (fluff wise). The headlong berzerker charge into combat stuff is for the youngsters. The old grizzled guys tend to like to keep things at range and have been doing it long enough that they know what to bring and how to use it. Wow... a unit that fits its fluff. I conceded that the weapons were under priced. What more do you want?

Also all codex marine lists can split fire their devistators as long as they combat squad them. Yeah yeah its more points... about 64 or so but you also get a BS5 shot out of it and 6 ablative wounds.

70pts more for BA's, 90pts more for C:SM, and they have 1 less Heavy Weapon. When you're talking about fire support units, the ablative wounds don't matter quite as much, and the cost increase is huge. 2 full BA dev squads with missile launchers is 420pts for 8 heavy weapons. 3 full LF squads with missile launchers is 420pts for 15 heavy weapons, double the firepower for the same number of points and able to engage 150-300% more targets.

Ablative wounds do matter. Take two wounds away from LF and your down two heavies leaving only 3 to fire. Those same two losses against normal devi squad and you still four guns firing. Hell take 6 wounds against a devi squad and you still have four heavies firing, while the LF squad has gone the way of the Squat. It all depends on how you build your army. Right now SMU is a very viable build. Maybe it wont be such a good idea when 6th ed rolls around. Who knows. SM can get 18 missile launches in FA from speeders, SW can only get 6. It rather depends on where you want to spend your points.

And again... I conceded that the weapons in a LF squad were under priced. What more do you want?

The main hate for the four HQs is that you can take 4 Rune Priests. Maybe they should have had the 0-1 tag attached.

Or rather just not made them the best psyker HQ's in the game

Why do people keep saying this when there is no mathhammer way to prove it right? Its just perceived opinion. They are no better than any other LD10 psycher when casting spells. They don't know more spells than any other psycher, they can't cast more spells than any other psycher (that can buy an upgrade to cast more than 1 spell). Even their psychic defense isn't better than the few table wide hoods or rune of warding that are still around (the extra 11% sucess rate is moot when you can hide in the corner and stop a spell from anywhere on the table. I've never ever seen a single model from an all jump pack army or DE army die to JOTWW. Where does this notion that they are the best come from. I'll take a farseer with its unit boosting abilities over a RP any day.

Sure minor things in some peoples eyes but they die just like any other marines.

while being cheaper, fightier, and generally more capable for fewer points with more (and usually cheaper) options.

Welcome to the new army design philosophy that started with IG codex. When DA gets redone you will see 13 point basic marines at the normal trend.

Jayden63 wrote:
Funny how long fangs are the aged vets of the SW army (fluff wise). The headlong berzerker charge into combat stuff is for the youngsters. The old grizzled guys tend to like to keep things at range and have been doing it long enough that they know what to bring and how to use it. Wow... a unit that fits its fluff. I conceded that the weapons were under priced. What more do you want?

It's not necessarily just about the price, but for an army that, on the whole, is supposedly about vicious vikings in space, why are their heavy weapons troops so much more experienced and capable than those from other armies that place a much greater emphasis on such troops?

Ablative wounds do matter.

I didn't say that they didn't, only that they didn't matter as much for back field fire support units as, sitting all the way at the back of the board like they typically do, it's more difficult for the enemy to bring them under fire.

Take two wounds away from LF and your down two heavies leaving only 3 to fire. Those same two losses against normal devi squad and you still four guns firing. Hell take 6 wounds against a devi squad and you still have four heavies firing,

Totally valid points, however if they *are* making use of those combat squad abilities, then each unit is less capable and less durable than a long fang squad.

SM can get 18 missile launches in FA from speeders, SW can only get 6. It rather depends on where you want to spend your points.

Two things. First, that's over 800pts worth of speeder. Second, looking at the SW codex, unless I'm totally missing something in this unit entry, so can SW's.

Why do people keep saying this when its wrong? They are no better than any other LD10 psycher when casting spells. They don't know more spells than any other psycher, they can't cast more spells than any other psycher (that can buy an upgrade to cast more than 1 spell).

Because they some of the most powerful spells in the game, Counterattack, Acute senses for psychic shooting attacks (living lightning and it's unlimited range in particular makes this nifty), better force weapons (they get that nifty "wound daemons on a 2+ ability), more options and a mathematically better psychic nullification than a psychic hood against other Ld10 units?

Even their psychic defense isn't better than the few table wide hoods or rune of warding that are still around

It's better than any psychic hood that isn't Dark Angels, and it's not like you see a whole lot of DA librarians.

I've never ever seen a single model from an all jump pack army or DE army die to JOTWW.

That's not their only excellent power (when you've seen a unit of carnifex's get killed by one power, or power klaws routinely sniped from within mobs, etc, it gets silly). There's also Living Lightning (unlimited range transport popper, Yes please!), cover provision, and excellent board control from Tempest's Wrath and Hurricane. All truly excellent powers. The only lame power is Geki/Freki and possibly thunderclap (though not bad against hordes when lacking a Flamer)

I'll take a farseer with its unit boosting abilities over a RP any day.

Farseer's have great abilities too, but serves a different role, support rather than offensive power, but as a total package, it's very hard to see where a Runepriest isn't a better buy all around most of the time, and cheaper.

Welcome to the new army design philosophy that started with IG codex.

it's hard to divine any consistent design philosophy here that IG started. It's not like Nids got hugely better, certainly not their basic infantry units, BA's still aren't a match in terms of points per effectiveness for SW's, rather it's the armor spam ability and widespread availability of Fast that really makes that army. It's hard to say anything on DE given how incredibly outdated they were.

Lynata wrote:I think the self-crippling adherence to established doctrines and standards gives the Ultramarines way more personality than the Space Wolves and their supposed drawbacks could ever have.

Their geneseed defect works pretty much like vampirism in Twilight in that it just makes their fans like them even more, and of course gives them supercool abilities making them even more "cool" in battle, because being a Space Marine isn't cool enough these days.

I think the true philosophical tragedy lies in what the Ultramarines are often accused of - sacrificing their humanity in order to serve mankind. Being a Space Marine isn't a part-time job. At least it shouldn't be.

Just my two bolt shells, of course.

And for the records, I also liked them as Vikings, once.

Their adherence is in no way crippling whatsoever. The only way that the Ultramarines managed to 'kill' 'Alpharius' was by breaking the traditions they hated the Alpha Legion for breaking.

I miss the days when it was more believable that Russ drank the Emperor under the table than Russ blasting the Emperor from afar with a ridiculous amount of heavy squads firing by smelling him.

They are the best at:

Close fire support -Bolters and Specials everywhere, counter attack means they don't care who assaults

Assault- Plenty of character support (4HQs) and Uber-Grit on Tactical types

Psychics- most useful powers in the game, may have 4, better gear to put on them

Firepower- 15 Heavies that take out 6 targets for cheaper than anybody else can take 10. Plus piles of Razorbacks as well.

Hmm... what else is there to 40k?


The reason they seem so OP to me? The amount of people who play them, even more, the amount of people who "counts-as" them using whatever they actually used to play.

Fleas man, fleas.

other than that I haven't seen a lot of SW hate out there. It has moved on as codex creep continued to BA and then GK.

Durza wrote:Their adherence is in no way crippling whatsoever. The only way that the Ultramarines managed to 'kill' 'Alpharius' was by breaking the traditions they hated the Alpha Legion for breaking.

And that doesn't feel like a sort-of pyrrhic victory to you?

Of course that's just my perception, undoubtedly tainted by personal preferences like most of us, but I could think that the UM's adherence occasionally makes them rather hamstrung by their own rules and unable to adapt to difficult/new situations. The SW just jump from situation to situation and win by default due to werewolves, fleets of Battle Barges and plot armour, regardless of whether they're fighting Chaos, xenos or the Imperium. And as if that wasn't enough to grant them the mary-sue tag, when the battle is over they don't lead the monastic lifestyle that is common for Astartes, but rather they revert to space bikers with castles who just scared anyone into not daring to look at them whilst simultaneously being oh-so-heroic and revered. At least that's what the stuff I've read makes them look like.

Very much agreed about the drinking part, though. In a way, I feel as if the space opera-style just had more class than what is often considered "cool" these days. :I

Lynata you forgot the wenches. Because asexuality isn't for real men.

Chibi Bodge-Battle wrote:Erm...you are confusing me.
They are not Vikings, okay fine.

But it is not the supporters that use this term. There have been several "I hates em coz dey is Space Vikings"?
The term Space Viking in itself is being used pejoratively from what I can see.

As to the first objection, not all of us give a monkeys about a (fictional) bunch of oppressive idiots that the Imperium is.
Personally I also didn't want Chaos either. A faction that is able to stick its fingers up to the Inquisition sounds good to me.
Your light years may vary
Also I like Nordic myth, so why would Space Wolves (who by your own admission have a nordic theme which is okay) be seen as a bad thing?

Edit:Then I see Ash's post above who likes them as Vikings!

Ash
Honestly don't know but there may have been a conscious borrowing from Nordic myth of the berserker tradition. There are stories of a similar kind, except that the wolf replaces the bear in the battle frenzy.

Okay. Nothing really to say about allegedly people hating them by virtue of them being "Space Vikings."

See here's the thing, me liking the Inquisition has nothing to do with why I dislike the Space Wolves defying them... It's the fact that they get away with that and other examples of outright heresy without anyone seeming to care. It's that they could, like Dorn, tell Guilliman to shove his book up his ass... Only unlike Dorn, no one seemed to care. The Imperial Fists were being declared traitors for refusing the Codex Astartes. Apparently, the Space Wolves are so supar kewl that they can get away with it, by virtue of their kewlness. Which is the real problem. There is no valid reason for the Space Wolves not being called out on that crap. Not like the Dark Angels, who are at least subtle in their insubordinance.

Aren't the wenches there just for eye-candy and resting flagons of beer upon? I believe all the references to Space Wolf sexcapades of epicness are from their pre-Marine days.

Psienesis wrote:Aren't the wenches there just for eye-candy and resting flagons of beer upon? I believe all the references to Space Wolf sexcapades of epicness are from their pre-Marine days.

One story in the codex mentions a Space Wolf making a pass at some random woman.

Granted, this random woman turned out, as did everyone else there, to not be human, and the Space Wolves were never seen again, but it's the thought that counts.

Fluff reasons aside (and those are numerous), they are just the favored poster child of GW. Every version of their army has been among the most powerful armies of its edition, if not the top army. They are supposed to be this army with a disdain of psykers and deepstrike, with an emphasis on hand to hand. Well, they got the emphasis on hand to hand (yay Long Fangs with Counter Attack and able to have two Power Weapons wtf?) with the most undercosted core unit in the game, that is capable of going toe to toe with the most elite units in the entire game. Thats acceptable, if a little unbalanced. But then they also got the most efficient long range firepower around, wide access to drop pods to give them safe reliable deep strike, and the best psyker in the entire game (offensively, defensively, and cost effectiveness).

This isn't exactly new, as the pamphlet Wolf codex was incredibly good right up until the moment it got rendered obsolete. Of course it was the NEW wolf book that did that....

Even this blatant brokeness I could tolerate, but in an era where every other book has had its options mostly dumbed down, they retained all of their customization and wargear options. Terminator Armor and Coward Shields for Everyone! Meanwhile, Dark Eldar got their options stipped down and even the versitile GKs have inquisitors that can no longer ever have anything resembling an invulnerable save.

Plus Jaws can eat the peanuts out of my poo.... It autowins against so many armies that were already at a disadvantage to begin with....

Void__Dragon wrote:Lynata you forgot the wenches. Because asexuality isn't for real men.

True.

That said, for the time being I've chosen to regard them basically as "eyecandy" as Psienesis put it, for I want to believe that the Space Wolves are at least biologically like other Marines (minus the furry mutation) even though they don't act like it. Call it "damage limitation" if you will.

I'd probably have to take a read through that Codex now, though, for I've made it a personal policy to bow down before GW canon no matter what. :I

SlaveToDorkness wrote:I love their fluff and the idea behind their warrior archetype.

I hate the things the inexplicably get.

5 Heavies in a Fang squad (and splitfire plus a add-on that may have another heavy) for CHEAP!

4 HQs for NO reason whatsoever

Ugh... lots of other things.

Our Plasma Cannons are 5 points more expensive than the norm, and the only break we get in Long Fangs is 5 points less for a heavy bolter


However I love the 4 HQ choices

They're Space Marines, but better and cheaper for no discernible reason.

Lynata wrote:True.

That said, for the time being I've chosen to regard them basically as "eyecandy" as Psienesis put it, for I want to believe that the Space Wolves are at least biologically like other Marines (minus the furry mutation) even though they don't act like it. Call it "damage limitation" if you will.

I'd probably have to take a read through that Codex now, though, for I've made it a personal policy to bow down before GW canon no matter what. :I

Well, admittedly, it's not "overt" in the fluff, only implied through one part of a story in the Space Wolf codex. Even so, the effect is still present, you don't see the Blood Angels codex talking about how legendary Mephiston was with the ladies before becoming a marine, nor do you see Ultramarines making passes at women.

It's a pretty boring read. Seriously.

It kinda makes sense smelling something foreign and then blasting it to pieces, but storywise . . . its slowed.


Also I feel like the most bland chapter is the IronHands. At least the Ultramarines get a bunch of named characters . . . the Ironhands don't even have a specific set of tactics.

The Black Templars are the biggest chapter, but the Ultramarines can call upon other chapters of their ilk. I give the "Biggest" chapter award to the Ultramarines.

Imperial Fists have technically have the best/most fluff considering they 'consist' of the Black Templars and Crimson Fists chapters as well. Honestly I feel like Ultramarines should have something better other than being good at running away.

I'm a long time Thousand Sons player, so yeah. Death to the dogs of the False emperor!

Otherwise, as stated, Space Marines who are better for less points.

One thing they are worse at though is their Drop Pods only hold 10 models to SMs 12. It makes sense though since the SWs need the two spaces for the newspapers and dog food.

I blame Administratum propaganda.

From my perspective i think what i dont like about space wolves is the codex. They have one of the most overpowered codex out there. They are cheaper than marines, yet they are better in most every way. They hate psychers but they have some of the best psychers in the imperium. Long fangs being able to split fire is just rediculous. TBH i have no idea how GW allowed such a broken codex to slip through the cracks. That is all.

Void__Dragon wrote:Well, admittedly, it's not "overt" in the fluff, only implied through one part of a story in the Space Wolf codex. Even so, the effect is still present, you don't see the Blood Angels codex talking about how legendary Mephiston was with the ladies before becoming a marine, nor do you see Ultramarines making passes at women.

I guess that's because the authors did not think BA & UM fans would be that fixated on the "manliness" of their Chapter. For the SW, the whole werewolf biker gang theme pretty much calls for a few loose girls to further confirm how oh-so-manly the Wolves are. It's just another aspect that might be deemed "cool" by a lot of people.

But yeah, I kinda expect most of the book's fluff to be written like the Plague of Unbelief blurb; you could say I'm already inoculated. I just have to check the exact wording on if I can somehow still interpret it in a way that would preserve that last bit of "astartesness" about them.
If you remember where approximately that text is to be found, you'd likely save me a couple minutes of reading, though!

Botten3 wrote:

SlaveToDorkness wrote:I love their fluff and the idea behind their warrior archetype.

I hate the things the inexplicably get.

5 Heavies in a Fang squad (and splitfire plus a add-on that may have another heavy) for CHEAP!

4 HQs for NO reason whatsoever

Ugh... lots of other things.

Our Plasma Cannons are 5 points more expensive than the norm, and the only break we get in Long Fangs is 5 points less for a heavy bolter

Not sure what codex you're reading but Codex SM Devs stack up like this:

HB are 10 pts more
Missile launchers & Multi-Meltas are 5 pts more
Plasma Cannons are 5 pts more
Lascannons are 10 pts more

Tzeentchling9 wrote:I'm a long time Thousand Sons player, so yeah. Death to the dogs of the False emperor!

Otherwise, as stated, Space Marines who are better for less points.

One thing they are worse at though is their Drop Pods only hold 10 models to SMs 12. It makes sense though since the SWs need the two spaces for the newspapers and dog food.

:: facepaw :: I hope I'm not the only one who caught the pun in the first line.

AchillesFTW wrote:

Imperial Fists have technically have the best/most fluff considering they 'consist' of the Black Templars and Crimson Fists chapters as well.

And the Soul Drinkers! So they actually have traitor fluff as well.

OT, I don't hate the Space Wolves but from a background / fluff perspective their codex makes them look rather ridiculous. Personally I like to pretend the codex fluff doesn't exist, and concentrate instead on their portrayal in A Thousand Sons / Prospero Burns / Battle of the Fang. That trilogy portrays them in a much more (internally) consistent and cooler light imho.

Lynata wrote:I guess that's because the authors did not think BA & UM fans would be that fixated on the "manliness" of their Chapter. For the SW, the whole werewolf biker gang theme pretty much calls for a few loose girls to further confirm how oh-so-manly the Wolves are. It's just another aspect that might be deemed "cool" by a lot of people.

But yeah, I kinda expect most of the book's fluff to be written like the Plague of Unbelief blurb; you could say I'm already inoculated. I just have to check the exact wording on if I can somehow still interpret it in a way that would preserve that last bit of "astartesness" about them.
If you remember where approximately that text is to be found, you'd likely save me a couple minutes of reading, though!

Well, that's exactly what it is. It tries too hard, IMO.

Well, not all of it is insulting in such a way that I can recall, but what's not bad is so boring I almost wished for badness so that it could at least incite some reaction from me.

Is on page 20, at the top. Too lazy to type up exactly what it says.

Oh, but read about on the previous page of the time a company of Wolves travels through the circulatory system of a Chaos-corrupted void whale and blow it up.

I think the fluff is stupid and I think (most of) the models look stupid.
I don't really have any complaints about the codex, honestly; people are always going to whine about something.
But the biggest reason I hate them is simply:
Space marines riding wolves.
And it's not chaos, so they don't even have the excuse of, "but, it's the warp!"

Void__Dragon wrote:Is on page 20, at the top. Too lazy to type up exactly what it says.

Thankyou, that should suffice. Appreciated!

Void__Dragon wrote:Oh, but read about on the previous page of the time a company of Wolves travels through the circulatory system of a Chaos-corrupted void whale and blow it up.

XD Will do!

@Vaktathi

cheap terminators

They have the *cheapest* loyalist terminators in the game, second only to CSM termi's, with more options and Counterattack+ATSKNF. The only thing they can't do is spam TH/SS termi's effectively.

Sorry I forgot to specify assault terminators. The only kind of good (i use this term loosely) terminators in the game! A twin wolf claw terminator cost 63 pts! 23 pts over a normal assault terminator. Plus, they may be cheaper base, but they cannot deepstrike like every other terminator.

oh and not having attack bike squadrons in any marine army, is very disadvantageous. they are practically the only two wound/model unit in the codex, not to mention at T5 packing some serious firepower.

Space wolves also have no way of getting in your face as quick as possible other than drop pods.

J Mac wrote:
Sorry I forgot to specify assault terminators. The only kind of good (i use this term loosely) terminators in the game!

Eh, they can be used to good effect. Load them with combi-weapons and mix of CC upgrades and they're solid, just like CSM termis. Also, the big thing with TH/SS termi's is the SS more than anything, if you've got just a couple guys in the squad with those to absorb AP2 shots you still get much the same effect thanks to wound allocation.

A twin wolf claw terminator cost 63 pts!

are they? I don't have the book in front of me, I thought a pair was cheaper.

Plus, they may be cheaper base, but they cannot deepstrike like every other terminator.

Unless they're intending to shoot stuff, that's not a huge loss (since you'd never DS a pure CC unit anyway), and they can still take drop pods so unless you're trying to take more than 5 it shouldn't be an issue.

oh and not having attack bike squadrons in any marine army, is very disadvantageous. they are practically the only two wound/model unit in the codex, not to mention at T5 packing some serious firepower.

Given how rarely I see attack bikes these days (I don't think I've faced one this year actually) in any book, and I can't recall the last time I faced an entire squad of them (e.g. more than one in a unit), it's hard to see it as a huge loss.

Space wolves also have no way of getting in your face as quick as possible other than drop pods.

They have the same methods that every other marine army has except for stormravens that most SM armies don't have either. They've got Rhino's, Razorbacks, three Land Raider variants, and Drop Pods just like every other Marine army.

Because they are marines, but with hygiene issuses.

As Cartman says,

"Mm, your tears are so yummy and sweet! Oh, the tears of unfathomable sadness! My-yummy!"

Seriously, the only valid complaint I see out of anything is the amount of wolf related crap in the codex. That could have been toned down. However, the rest of what I have seen in the last four pages has just been whining from haters wanting to hate.

That's funny. You're either insufferably arrogant or you just didn't bother to read anything at all and relied on fanboy loyalty to make a comment. Seriously, accept that your special snowflake twilight wish fulfillment army part 2 isn't to everyone's tastes or move along and stop bothering everyone with pretentious bollocks.

iproxtaco wrote:That's funny. You're either insufferably arrogant or you just didn't bother to read anything at all and relied on fanboy loyalty to make a comment. Seriously, accept that your special snowflake twilight wish fulfillment army part 2 isn't to everyone's tastes or move along and stop bothering everyone with pretentious bollocks.

That is funny since practically every post in this is about fanboisim for their own army not being special snowflakes per the canon while the canon is more and more pointing that the Wolves were indeed special snowflakes.

And really, yet another Twilight reference? Considering that there were a vast amount of Space Wolves players before the new codex came out, second highest winning percentage behind Blood Angels in 3rd edtion, the Wolves are hardly a Twilight wish fulfillment. From their popularity on other forums such as the Bolter & Chainsword (highest forum count) long before that movie series ever came out, the Wolves are hardly a Twilight wish fulfillment.

What the Wolves have become is a wish fulfillment for min/max players, counts-as, and army hoppers such as yourself, if you are as your avatar indicates, "Goatboy". However even that has diminished as more and more players leave the Wolves codex behind to hop on the next FOTM codex or find out that copying Wolves netlists is not a guaranteed win.

But hey, who am I to stop the whining of players too caught up in their own chapters lacking of personality or "specialness"? That is the basis of what all the complaints arise from.

Did I strike a nerve? Might want to get some cream for that sore butt.

Tyr Grimtooth wrote:But hey, who am I to stop the whining of players too caught up in their own chapters lacking of personality or "specialness"? That is the basis of what all the complaints arise from.

Do you really think that none of the complaints about imbalance of the codex (which is what a number of posters in this thread argue) have no merit?

Space Wolf Spwolf Marwoles of the Adwolf Astarwolf wielding a boltwolf, chainwolf, and boltwolf pistwolf get counterwolf and are simply better than codex Space Marines for a lower price. Longwolf Fangwolf Devawolves get Misswolf Launchwolves for fewer points than SM, and can split their fire, due apparently to their Enhwolf Senswolves.

They get four Headquarwolf choices, can spam Razorwolves with Lascawolves and Plaswolves on the cheap, and have some of the best Psywolves (sorry, Ruwolf Priewolves) in the game, able to cast Psywolf Powolves that are incredibly unbalanced (JOTWW?).

When one army has the some of the best armor, best anti-tank, best assault, and best shooting units, all for the lowest price, is it any surprise that people switch to them?

Tyr Grimtooth wrote:
However, the rest of what I have seen in the last four pages has just been whining from haters wanting to hate.

Then you obviously didn't do much reading of said pages

Tyr Grimtooth wrote:
That is funny since practically every post in this is about fanboisim for their own army not being special snowflakes per the canon

Really? It reads to me more like it's more like they're just complaining about special snowflake sillyness in general.

while the canon is more and more pointing that the Wolves were indeed special snowflakes.

Which makes for stupid fluff that turns people off.

Considering that there were a vast amount of Space Wolves players before the new codex came out

Yeah, they all mysteriously started playing again in October 2009. Before that, I played against a grand total of perhaps 2 SW players in 3 total games in the preceding 3 or 4 years of consistent weekly play (2-5 games a week) and tournaments/events every month or two, in multiple different metro areas and states.

second highest winning percentage behind Blood Angels in 3rd edtion,

And you'll notice they changed several core rules as a result of these armies And that power level probably had something to do with that popularity.

From their popularity on other forums such as the Bolter & Chainsword (highest forum count) long before that movie series ever came out, the Wolves are hardly a Twilight wish fulfillment.

Most would agree, but with the quality of the SW fluff as it is, it doesn't read too far off, which is why the comparison is often made, though it isn't unique to SW's either.

What the Wolves have become is a wish fulfillment for min/max players, counts-as, and army hoppers

And you wonder why people dislike an army that caters to min/max powergames, counts-as and army hoppers...? Why is that a mystery? It also doesn't help that the codex greatly incetivizes army builds that play about as far from what most would imagine as SW armies as one can get, more appropriate to Imperial Fists or the Imperial guard than an army of supposed Space Vikings.

However even that has diminished as more and more players leave the Wolves codex behind to hop on the next FOTM codex or find out that copying Wolves netlists is not a guaranteed win.

Only in the last couple of months since GK's, and even then, the SW's still probably only went down 1 spot in tournament attendance to 2nd. At Adepticon earlier this year, SW's were by far the most popular single faction. Yes, 90% (38 of 43 were counts as), but that also explains a lot about why people dislike the army.

But hey, who am I to stop the whining of players too caught up in their own chapters lacking of personality or "specialness"? That is the basis of what all the complaints arise from.

Probably because you're super butthurt and didn't bother to actually read the complaints before hitting "post"?

better than regular marines... cost less, counterattack is lame LAME so they are better at shooting than most marines , somehow cost less... oh and JotWW is broken... oh targeting my nob in a squad of boys... might as well just take the whoe squad with it.

Fluff: I personally like the Space Vikings idea, and don't mind minor dark/pranking/partying/traitor or whatever fluff aspects, as long as they pick one or two and heavily focus on them (Otherwise, SW will become more "dark" than DA...).

Also, kill the Wolf^n spam throughout the codex! Kill it with fire! I think they could probably remove 4 our of every 5 references to Wolf, and still get the Wolf-tie-in message across to Hellen Keller.

Crunch: As per everybody above. They are overcosted for what they do, and several significant parts of their army defies their fluff.
Long fangs and their snowflake rules? Fine. Cheap Long Fangs that allow you to pump out more firepower than any other SM codex on a per-point basis, and bringing firepower on an IG level to the table (Seriously?...)? Not fine.
Having a limited number of psykers with a good power or two? Fine. Having a cheap psyker you can take four of in a single list with (arguably) the best set of psychic powers in the game atm? Not fine.

Tyr Grimtooth wrote:
That is funny since practically every post in this is about fanboisim for their own army not being special snowflakes per the canon while the canon is more and more pointing that the Wolves were indeed special snowflakes.

Yes, none of the posts mentioned how Space Wolves are better than regular Space Marines while also being cheaper...

Has anyone mentioned how spacey and wolfy they are?? Man I just can't stand it!!

Skriker

DarknessEternal wrote:

Tyr Grimtooth wrote:
That is funny since practically every post in this is about fanboisim for their own army not being special snowflakes per the canon while the canon is more and more pointing that the Wolves were indeed special snowflakes.

Yes, none of the posts mentioned how Space Wolves are better than regular Space Marines while also being cheaper...

THANK YOU! Every one is saying it but no one is explaining how!!! Our devastators have no advantages except for cheaper heavy bolters

Having another heavy weapons guy allowing you to pump out more FP for lesser prices. Having arguable the best psycher in the game. Having cheaper vehicles and transports. That's something right there.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Having another heavy weapons guy allowing you to pump out more damage for lesser prices. Having arguable the best psycher in the game for a more or less cheap for his abilities price. Having cheaper vehicles and transports. That's something right there.

Botten3 wrote:
THANK YOU! Every one is saying it but no one is explaining how!!! Our devastators have no advantages except for cheaper heavy bolters

You missed the sarcasm, because many people pointed out how Space Wolves are better and and cheaper than vanilla Marines.

Every Long Fang option is cheaper than the Space Marine option.

Grey Hunters are cheaper than Space Marines, but they have an additional close combat weapon, Counter-Attack, and Acute Senses.

Where they aren't explicitly cheaper, they are better.

Wolf Guard are 7 points cheaper than veteran Space Marines and many of their options are cheaper as well (power weapons, etc).

Characters can buy Eternal Warrior and Toughness 5 (which is one of the only cases in 40k where bonus Toughness counts for instant death). Rune Priest powers make Space Marine powers look like puke. Long Fangs are the only unit in the game that can split their fire, this coming from their sergeant who is 10 points cheaper than a Space Marine sergeant.

SW counterattack is one of the most OP traits in the game. Admittedly it is not automatic but unlike other marines, SW want to get within 12". Unloading a rhino is no big deal for them. They can disembark, plant two bolter shots into you and still get two attacks in HTH.

Add to that the overly cheap long fangs and the powerful rune priests and I understand why the dislike.

Botten3 wrote:
THANK YOU! Every one is saying it but no one is explaining how!!! Our devastators have no advantages except for cheaper heavy bolters

Read back over the thread, it's been covered, but just in case:

Long Fangs:
5 instead of 4 heavy weapons with split fire ability and a dirt cheap cost? 5 C:SM Devastators with 4 ML's is 150pts, 6 Long Fangs with Counterattack and a Split Fire ability and 5 ML's are 140pts (so 10pts cheaper with more guns that can engage more targets) and the sergeant equivalent can take a plasma/melta/flamer as well and not just a combi.

More guns, fewer points, and they're better able to put that firepower where it's needed.

Lets look at Grey Hunters. They have a CCW to go with the rest of their wargear, plus Counterattack, making them significantly better in CC than a Tac Marine. A squad of GH's with 9 dudes with a meltagun plus a 10th Wolf Guard sporting a powerfist and a combi-melta is 183pts with 2 attacks each, 3 on the charge or when charged. An SM tac squad is 210 with a multi-melta, a meltagun, and a combi-melta/powerfist sergeant. So the GH's don't get the heavy weapon (not that anyone would take them on the assualt oriented GH's anyway, not much of aloss), but are 15% cheaper with significantly more close combat capability, not to mention have access to more powerweapons/upgrades than the Tac squad does.

Tyr Grimtooth wrote:As Cartman says,

"Mm, your tears are so yummy and sweet! Oh, the tears of unfathomable sadness! My-yummy!"

Seriously, the only valid complaint I see out of anything is the amount of wolf related crap in the codex. That could have been toned down. However, the rest of what I have seen in the last four pages has just been whining from haters wanting to hate.

Hey man, you need a hug or something? Because if it'll make you feel better about that butthurt, Kaelis Ra knows I will take one for the team and give you a hug.

You seem to think that Space Wolves being special snowflake Mary Sues is just peachy because... The canon points to them being so? Well, yeah, hence why people dislike their fluff.

They can disembark, plant two bolter shots into you and still get two attacks in HTH.

3. 1+BP/CCW+Counter-attack. This is before popping the wolf standard to make a bit more certain that they hit, and wound. Oh, and reroll around half of the failed armor saves they make.

My gripes with the SW, in order from least annoying to most annoying:

Canis Wolf McLupinebane of the 2142352th Wolf company, Master of Wolves, Wolfer of the wolf wolf, rider of thunderwolves, one who carries the mark of the wulfen, and wolfs the wolf wolf at any further opportunity in service of the great wolf. <CENSORED> people, even the maligned "boring" vanilla codex wasn't this samey.

Longfangs, Grey hunters, Rune priests, Wolf guard everywhere, for reasons already stated repeatedly by this thread. What in the name of the Emperor were they thinking? Oh, wait, it was "Sell all those wolf models! NOW!" ...the same reason my Carnifex now sucks and I own 3 trygon.

More guns, fewer points, and they're better able to put that firepower where it's needed.

That is not the SW's fault, it is the fault of the guys that wrote a unit has to all fire at the same taget even if they have different weapons.
"Whatchyou doin pointinn to bazooka at a tank fo soldja, get it pointed at dem grunts with de rest of yo platoon!"

Chibi Bodge-Battle wrote:

More guns, fewer points, and they're better able to put that firepower where it's needed.

That is not the SW's fault, it is the fault of the guys that wrote a unit has to all fire at the same taget even if they have different weapons.
"Whatchyou doin pointinn to bazooka at a tank fo soldja, get it pointed at dem grunts with de rest of yo platoon!"

Sure, the core rule might be something that doesn't make total sense, but it's not something that any army but SW's really has an exception to either. It's an SW specific rule that makes their fire support units just that much more capable than equivalents, really for no good reason.

Has anyone who is complaining about split fire long fangs bothered to read the fluff behind that ability?

Hint: It has nothing to do with the hyper senses. If it did then the entire space wolf army would be able to split fire. The fluff reason is because of there age and experience.

Blame the writers who make the stuff up, not the subjects of the rules.
Can understand people being puzzled tbh as there ought to be some form of parity.

Maybe it can be addressed with 6th ed but prolly won't

Normal Devastators can split fire, but they have to combat squad to do it. The reason Long Fangs are annoying is not because they can split fire, but the fact that they can do without any draw backs like regular Devastators

Luke_Prowler wrote:Normal Devastators can split fire, but they have to combat squad to do it. The reason Long Fangs are annoying is not because they can split fire, but the fact that they can do without any draw backs like regular Devastators

What Drawbacks other than prices?

Anpu42 wrote:

Luke_Prowler wrote:Normal Devastators can split fire, but they have to combat squad to do it. The reason Long Fangs are annoying is not because they can split fire, but the fact that they can do without any draw backs like regular Devastators

What Drawbacks other than prices?

Combat squads count as two separate kill points, right?

Commisar Wolfie wrote:Hint: It has nothing to do with the hyper senses. If it did then the entire space wolf army would be able to split fire. The fluff reason is because of there age and experience.

I'm not sure if that is truly better...

But thanks for pointing this out, it at least does not read as stupid - now I just think this is something other armies with such experienced warriors should have as well.

[edit] Obviously in a balanced fashion, i.e. potentially requiring other limitations to make it work.

No arguement there. Just tired of seeing people complain about something and not even having it correct.
The long fangs are at least limited in that they can only split fire as long as the squad leader is there.

Commisar Wolfie wrote:Has anyone who is complaining about split fire long fangs bothered to read the fluff behind that ability?

Hint: It has nothing to do with the hyper senses. If it did then the entire space wolf army would be able to split fire. The fluff reason is because of there age and experience.

Right, nobody has said anything to the contrary, but again, why does an army of space vikings apparently have the most experienced and capable heavy weapons troops in the game? Especially over other armies where such troops are far more prominent.

Actually I have read a few posts complaining about split fire and it being because of the hyper sense. All I was doing was pointing out the actual fluff reason for the split fire. I never claimed it was the best reason as to why the space wolves have it or otherwise. Beyond that the previous codex had the exact same rule for the long fangs and I never heard anyone complain about it then. But to answer your question it is because the Space Wolves ARE better then all the other chapters. They stayed true to their primarch instead of bowing down to RB and doing what he wants since he somehow became the new expert on all things.

Luke_Prowler wrote:

Anpu42 wrote:

Luke_Prowler wrote:Normal Devastators can split fire, but they have to combat squad to do it. The reason Long Fangs are annoying is not because they can split fire, but the fact that they can do without any draw backs like regular Devastators

What Drawbacks other than prices?

Combat squads count as two separate kill points, right?

True IF you do break them into Combat Squads [I have done it in the past]
Personaly I would rather have the 4 Meat Shields added to my Long Fangs

Commisar Wolfie wrote:Actually I have read a few posts complaining about split fire and it being because of the hyper sense. All I was doing was pointing out the actual fluff reason for the split fire. I never claimed it was the best reason as to why the space wolves have it or otherwise. Beyond that the previous codex had the exact same rule for the long fangs and I never heard anyone complain about it then.

Probably because they were more than a third again as expensive for a full missile squad and only had 4 heavy weapons, coupled with the fact that after 3E (and especially after 2E when their book was even more powerful in a metagame sense, topped only by the Eldar who still are feeling the nerfing from 1998) they disappeared from the gaming scene in most places until late 2009 so nobody ever saw them. Just like you didn't see many questions about the LR Exterminator either from IG players who lost access to it for 6 years, because they just weren't taken very often and SW's were a rather rare army.

But to answer your question it is because the Space Wolves ARE better then all the other chapters. They stayed true to their primarch instead of bowing down to RB and doing what he wants since he somehow became the new expert on all things.

Other than a moral victory in their own minds born of a silly sense of self rightousness, how exactly does that make them better than all other chapters? It's still kinda silly that the Vikings-in-Space army has the best long range static fire support infantry unit in the game, especially over other Astartes forces where they play a far greater role.

Vaktathi wrote:

Chibi Bodge-Battle wrote:

More guns, fewer points, and they're better able to put that firepower where it's needed.

That is not the SW's fault, it is the fault of the guys that wrote a unit has to all fire at the same taget even if they have different weapons.
"Whatchyou doin pointinn to bazooka at a tank fo soldja, get it pointed at dem grunts with de rest of yo platoon!"

Sure, the core rule might be something that doesn't make total sense, but it's not something that any army but SW's really has an exception to either. It's an SW specific rule that makes their fire support units just that much more capable than equivalents, really for no good reason.

Sit down, get a snack, cause I'm gonna tell ya a cool story bro.

editBTW... This post is not directed directly at the guys I quoted above, your posts just happen to be good a good lead in.

Its obvious that many posters never played against a 3.0 SW army, even fewer have read the old codex, and probably some couldn't even (without google) tell me what the cover looked like. You want to know why the SW units are like they are, its because they have always been this way.

Counter attack. Why do all SW units have counter attack? Because they have always had it. However, it used to be different. It used to allow the wolves to pile in when charged so that all their guys can get their swings in. Sound familiar? Now all armies have the old version of counter attack for free. So GW rewrote it to give it something to do. Its just right now a pretty powerful one. However, I personally expect the +1 attack to be changed to something else not quite so complainable when 6th ed. comes around.

Wolf named items have always existed in the SW codex. Yeah we gained a few but we even lost one, who remembers Wolf Pelts? I sure as hell do, they were awesome. You know what they did... +1 attack when counter attacking. Ring a bell? The SW wargear hasn't changed much. I miss my healing balms and a few other choice items. However, one change that SW got in the new codex that I really do not see any reason for is the change from lightning claw to wolf claw. Yeah the ability changed so a new name was needed, but the change shouldn't have happened in the first place. There is no reason for it. I'm in total agreement with others that it was unnecessary.

Long Fangs. Have always had the ability to split fire. Were always a small unit with no ablative wounds. And cost a ridiculous amount of points. As such, they were rarely used. So they got a modification in the new codex to make them more attractive. Yeah, they might have gone too far, but anyone who has been with GW longer than 4 years knows all about the power pendulum swing.

As for fluff... LF are the grizzled vets of the SW army. They have the most battle experance, some even more than our Wolf Lords. In a normal SM army, devistators are the young guys who managed to graduate out of scout school. Keep them back, let them observe and gain exposure without putting them directly in harms way. Totally different paths the warriors take.

Grey Hunters and BP/CCW/Bolter. Grey Hunters used to be armed with Bolters and CCW, they also had something called True Grit. True Grit doesn't exist anymore. What it used to be was basically you got to treat the bolter as a pistol in HTH, but you didn't get +1 for charging. So they always had two attacks didn't matter if they charged, got charged, or were into their 4th round of combat. The new rules gives them the same 2 attacks in HTH during consecutive rounds, with a small bonus for charging and sometimes when being charged. Was it necessary, well since True Grit doesn't exist, if you gave them just bolter and CCW they would be no better off than tacticals. And GH are not supposed to be tacticals. If you gave then BP/CCW then they are assault marines. But players would bitch because they lost their iconic bolters. I honestly think this was the better choice, also once counter attack gets changed to something else and the newest SM codex brings tactical down to 15 points (plus whatever new army wide special rule shows up), I think a lot of the complaining will go away.

Bloodclaws - used to cost 13 points and could bring 3 P-fists onto the table for stupid cheap. I know that most older SW armies had 2-3 units of BC and maybe one unit of GH (because they got ridiculously expensive). But like the long fangs. The GW pendulum swing is always in motion, so this is now what we got. I'd love to still be able to take a unit of 15 and get 9 P-fist swings on the charge. Those days are over however. Those of you who never faced it can count your blessings.

Multiple HQs - The old codex required that you take 1 HQ for every 750 points of army roster. So at 1501 you had to take 3 HQs. Giving the current SW codex 4 HQs isn't that big of a deal, its just that some people will abuse and spam that option. Sorry for those of you who have to play against it.

Rune Priests - We've always been able to have them. However they used to be HTH combat monsters with just a single power. But welcome back oh pendulum swing. They now are fairly meh in HTH but do their killing with powers. Are the powers over the top, depends on what is on the other side of the table. But people focus on what they hate. However as for fieldability, nothing has changed. Every SW army I or my friends ever made has a Rune Priest in it. Nothing has changed, no reason to not take one now.

Scouts - Not that anyone is complaining about them, but our scouts are experanced Grey Hunters. Not the young pups of other Chapters. They have always had behind enemy lines... something of a novelty that has been lost with the addition of outflanking and even other armies now having the ability to come in on the opposite board edge. They are what they have always been.

So seriously, the Wolves are now, how they always have been. Maybe a little bit better in some areas than SM, worse in others. However, they do accomplish one thing. They play totally different than the normal SM codex. So in that regard the codex is a huge success. As for bandwagoning. With the release of the GK codex, I've not seen any counts as GK armies using SW rules. If the Chaos codex wasn't so udderly bland of options you wouldn't see any chaos counts as SW codex. I think most people who use normal marines and are counts asing right now are emulating the BA codex because there is nothing in it you can't field.

Now, if you still want to hate, feel free to hate. But at least be smart about it and know how the army your hating on has progressed so you just pull stuff out of thin air that is totally wrong and unfounded.

Jayden63 wrote:
Sit down, get a snack, cause I'm gonna tell ya a cool story bro.

So they've always had it, we all know that. They don't need to also be cheaper for it. They used to be more expensive for being better than regular Space Marines, they still should be.

DarknessEternal wrote:

Jayden63 wrote:
Sit down, get a snack, cause I'm gonna tell ya a cool story bro.

So they've always had it, we all know that. They don't need to also be cheaper for it. They used to be more expensive for being better than regular Space Marines, they still should be.

I'd love to be able to run 10 TH/SS termies for 400 points instead of 630.

Point savings are where you spam them. Cheap and effective units can be found in every codex. The WAAC guy knows how to spam them. Those of us who genuinely play for the fun of the game run skyclaws and what not.

I understand all those points. SW's had many of these things in the last book. Nobody is debating that or claiming they are new. However the issue is that the army effectively just ends up being "Space Marines...but BETTER!" (silly in and of itself and the cause of much of the hate, why do they need to be just plain better man for man than say, an Imperial Fist or a a Raven Guard marine, who don't spend as much time doing ridiculous stuff and drinking and whatnot?), and coupled with insanely low pricing and how much better 5E counterattack is (which, for all intents and purposes has primarily been an SW specific rule being available only to maybe half a dozen units outside of SW's if that, so it's hard not to see they didn't realize what they were doing with that ability) means that unless one just *needs* some of the more niche units from other marine books (thunderfire cannons, defilers, etc) it's very hard not to make the jump to Space Wolves, they've become *the* bandwagon army of the last two years.

As to how they play, they actually, if anything, almost exactly like Undivided CSM armies, but with more guns and Razorbacks, kinda like what Iron Warriors wish they could be I could swap my CSM army over to C:SW and change...half a dozen non-tank models I think, and end up with what largely looks like a fairly standard SW tournament force, but have more points to play with, more guns, and better special rules (no, I'm not actually advocating doing this). Much of the army feels like they took C:CSM, took out the Cult units and Chaos-y stuff, and slapped in the loyalist equipment/rules and added a couple extra for good measure and cut the cost by 15%. They took the best parts of both C:SM and C:CSM, trimmed the fat, cut the cost and added sprinkles basically. It doesn't help that the competitive builds the army incentivizes play very far from what most would imagine SW armies as. Most don't imaging half a dozen or more tanks and a force lavishly equipped with enough heavy weapons to make IG jealous and incredibly potent psyker support when they think of Space Wolves. But that's what's popular and *that* is what the codex incentivizes.

So sure, it's a little different from C:SM, but lets not forget that pre- oct2009 that the average C:SM army was already going full mech and min/max razorbackspam already as well, SW's just did it better and swapped ironclads and land raiders for Long Fangs and Rune Priests.

Fluff side, there's the issues of game balance with the army. Game balance aside, there's issues with the armies fluff of not quite being able to make up its mind of what it wants to be, some atrocious writing, and a feeling of "we're different, but different can't just mean different, it means it also has to be *BETTER*!". It basically feels like they're trying too hard, and trying to be too many things. When such a state exists, of course there will be e-hate.



In all honesty, I've yet to see more than one unit of any "-claw" unit in an SW army since 2009 (and even then, *only* bloodclaws IIRC), wherever these "fun" players are, I wish I saw them more often.

no reason to not take one now.

Whenever one can say this about a non-troops unit, something is wrong.


All this said, I'd really like to love the SW's, I really really would. If they really did the "vikings in space" thing well, as opposed to simply tacking something norse sounding onto everything that doesn't have some sort of Wolf moniker and thinking that Vikings=drunk pranksters, they'd be awesome. In all honesty, the Carcharodons (space sharks) and in some ways even the Black Templars fit the Viking mold better than the SW's. Sure the SW's have the imagery of Vikings, but it's the other chapters that maraud their way through space from small bases and spend most of their time on ships and seeking out new enemies and realms.

Botten3 wrote:Please explain your reasoning clearly, I would like to hear your reasoning.

Pet Dander, there is no Allegra in the 41st Millennium

Its obvious that many posters never played against a 3.0 SW army

That comment cuts both ways. Those of us who DID play against them back in the day are probably more than a little annoyed.

Half of my old group in Texas ran that codex, pre-update. Lots of longfangs, even then...because cover was not quite so abundant, and vehicles were just slightly more delicate than they are now. Hordes of chainfist WG and IC led blood claws with powerfists and PWs falling out their wolfy-wolfs, and back then? I was cool with it.

Why might this be, one would ask? Well, these bloodclaws were also generally marching into the teeth of a whole bunch of lasplas squads backed up by devastators and terminators of both the "Stab it!" and "Shoot it with the assault cannon with the OLD rending rules!" variety....and to boot, there was no LRC for them to hide in at the time.

However, they nerfed my tacticals, assault cannons, and devastators. Kinda ticked off, frankly. Now I content myself to running the opposition over with a land raider and having the TH/SS jump up and down on their head, followed by attaching the bodies to the land speeders with rope and having them do donuts over the battlefield so the sternguard can get some target practice on the trailing metal kites...But watching the old staples (One of which you can't exactly just NOT buy, or have a realy viable alternative to for most situations...) get nerfed into the ground -that- hard, followed by GW apparently realizing its mistake (to varying extents...) in successive MEQ codices? Yea, quite aggravating.

Commisar Wolfie wrote:Has anyone who is complaining about split fire long fangs bothered to read the fluff behind that ability?

Hint: It has nothing to do with the hyper senses. If it did then the entire space wolf army would be able to split fire. The fluff reason is because of there age and experience.

What a load of nonsense.

What all that age and experience that all the other Marine chapters' veterans must obviously lack because they um... are all noob-marines compared to the grizzzlly old drunken viking furry guys??

There's no way to excuse it, or the vast undercosted overpowered, flexibile "nyah nyah my list is awesome because it can't not be" , cheaper cheaper cheaper power power power, the way people don't actually HAVE to attempt to fulfil their sagas or take pride in each man's individuality (a point strongly emphasized in the fluff, just conveniently not the rules) in how they are armed (just suggestion.. and of course an unspoken rule if they are riding Thunderwolves - but that itself is just another form of munchkinism) or the overpowered psykers or well.. most of it...

it sold books and toys to munchkins (and the ocasional true fan who does not play the same tired oveused net list, my heart goes out to you as you suffer the enmity caused by your munchkin comrades-in-arms and the horribly thought out rules set they were thrust to spoon up like an overful bowl of stupid awesomeness.

Vaktathi wrote:

Chibi Bodge-Battle wrote:

More guns, fewer points, and they're better able to put that firepower where it's needed.

That is not the SW's fault, it is the fault of the guys that wrote a unit has to all fire at the same taget even if they have different weapons.
"Whatchyou doin pointinn to bazooka at a tank fo soldja, get it pointed at dem grunts with de rest of yo platoon!"

Sure, the core rule might be something that doesn't make total sense, but it's not something that any army but SW's really has an exception to either. It's an SW specific rule that makes their fire support units just that much more capable than equivalents, really for no good reason.

Tau have an exception in the form of Commander Shadowsun.

Chaos Daemons have an exception with one of their Tzeentch upgrades IIRC.

And all armies have an exception when it comes to Spearhead games.

SOFDC wrote:
However, they nerfed my tacticals, assault cannons, and devastators. Kinda ticked off, frankly. Now I content myself to running the opposition over with a land raider and having the TH/SS jump up and down on their head, followed by attaching the bodies to the land speeders with rope and having them do donuts over the battlefield so the sternguard can get some target practice on the trailing metal kites...But watching the old staples (One of which you can't exactly just NOT buy, or have a realy viable alternative to for most situations...) get nerfed into the ground -that- hard, followed by GW apparently realizing its mistake (to varying extents...) in successive MEQ codices? Yea, quite aggravating.

Welcome to CSM World. A change in Studio mindset and BAM! Your codex suuuucks!


Space wolves have had a Cheesy gak codex since the first one (THE first codex) in 2nd edition. For no reason at all (except for JJs "Gray Marines" perhaps).

yeenoghu wrote:

Commisar Wolfie wrote:Has anyone who is complaining about split fire long fangs bothered to read the fluff behind that ability?

Hint: It has nothing to do with the hyper senses. If it did then the entire space wolf army would be able to split fire. The fluff reason is because of there age and experience.

What a load of nonsense.

What all that age and experience that all the other Marine chapters' veterans must obviously lack because they um... are all noob-marines compared to the grizzzlly old drunken viking furry guys??

There's no way to excuse it, or the vast undercosted overpowered, flexibile "nyah nyah my list is awesome because it can't not be" , cheaper cheaper cheaper power power power, the way people don't actually HAVE to attempt to fulfil their sagas or take pride in each man's individuality (a point strongly emphasized in the fluff, just conveniently not the rules) in how they are armed (just suggestion.. and of course an unspoken rule if they are riding Thunderwolves - but that itself is just another form of munchkinism) or the overpowered psykers or well.. most of it...

it sold books and toys to munchkins (and the ocasional true fan who does not play the same tired oveused net list, my heart goes out to you as you suffer the enmity caused by your munchkin comrades-in-arms and the horribly thought out rules set they were thrust to spoon up like an overful bowl of stupid awesomeness.

Read the codex and you'll see that is the reason given behind the ability. Did I ever say that it was a valid reason as to why the space wolves can and regular marines can't. No I didn't. Although codex marines maynot split fire because of something in the codex astartes, I don't know. I was simply pointing out the fluff reason behind the split fire ability as not being the hyper sense smell thing that people were saying it was. Also I believe that the devastators of codex chapters are not the veterans of their armies that the long fangs are. Remember that there is no first company of veterans like codex chapters and that Wolf gaurd are not that numerous.

You also have three classes of Space Wolf Players
1] Old School [and new players can fall under this catagory] that are playing Space Wolves beouce of the ability to costimize [both list and models] and could care less about SPAMing your opponent to deeath, they just want to go out there and have your opponent go "Thats a cool looking army!".

2] WAAK Players who only see the rules and plays SPAM becouse he can feield a bucket of Metla/Missle Launcher List no matter how boring it is. These are the ones who are currently bringing the hate on us.

3] The Hybrid, this is me I usaly field 2 Pack of Grey Hunters with 2 Pladma Guns and one Pack of Long Fangs with Missle Lanchers. The Rest of my list is filled with the cool stuff, Lone Wolves, Characters, Wolf Scouts and such. i usaly ty to theme my list, and keep them "Fluffy".

I think if more players used option 1 or 3 there would be a lot less hate.

Anpu42 wrote:You also have three classes of Space Wolf Players
1] Old School [and new players can fall under this catagory] that are playing Space Wolves beouce of the ability to costimize [both list and models] and could care less about SPAMing your opponent to deeath, they just want to go out there and have your opponent go "Thats a cool looking army!".

2] WAAK Players who only see the rules and plays SPAM becouse he can feield a bucket of Metla/Missle Launcher List no matter how boring it is. These are the ones who are currently bringing the hate on us.

3] The Hybrid, this is me I usaly field 2 Pack of Grey Hunters with 2 Pladma Guns and one Pack of Long Fangs with Missle Lanchers. The Rest of my list is filled with the cool stuff, Lone Wolves, Characters, Wolf Scouts and such. i usaly ty to theme my list, and keep them "Fluffy".

I think if more players used option 1 or 3 there would be a lot less hate.

Agreed. I faced a SW player that was built on 5 x grey hunter, 1 x wolf scout and 1 x long fang. It was disgustingly difficult to beat! The problem of course is that it required a tactically sound general to play it correctly. The #2 of the world lead to disgust when you see 15 missile launchers for the umteenth time.

If tears were oil, this thread alone could end the United States dependency on foreign oil!

Jayden did a pretty good breakdown on what Space Wolves were and what they have become. All that continued afterward was more,

"Well my codex can't do the same thing!! WAAAAAHHHH!"

However, lets expand on what Jayden points out and even actually look at the continued comparisions between the Wolves and Space Marine. Wait for it......here it comes......

IT IS A CRAP COMPARISON CONSIDERING THE AGE OF THE SPACE MARINE CODEX!!!

Anyone miss that? If you want a true comparison look to the Blood Angels codex and the Grey Knights codex. When you are facing Assault Marines as troops, DoA, and discounted fast tanks, suddenly Counterattack and Acute Senses are not the big scary monster in the closet. When you have squads full of NFW, Hammerhand, and offhand storm bolters. suddenly having a bolt pistol/bolter/ccw is not overpowered.

But hey, whiners gonna whine, haters gonna hateand, and neither will pay attention to probably anything I just wrote so let's continue with the faulty comparison;

Space Wolves: Grey Hunters; Leadership 8

Leadership 8: Yea, that spiffy Counter-attack everyone keeps complaining about, is tested on that nice leadership 8. But hey, so is pinning, morale checks to shooting, and morale checks to losing assault.

Grey Hunters do not get a nifty little sergeant in the pack to boost leadership. Grey Hunters need to get a Wolf Guard pack leader to get that leadership boost which costs 3x, since you have to buy them in 3's and also costs a Elite FOC slot.

This also plays into army composition as well. A SM tactical squad is 9+1, full geared with special and heavy weapon. No problem fitting in their transport or combat squading and still having half the unit able to run in a transport. Grey Hunters are 10. If we drop one member to get a Wolf Guard and fit in a transport, we lose a special weapon. We can't combat squad, so there is never 10+1, splitting up and still allowing a transport.

This leads into the next point;

Space Wolves: Grey Hunters: No Combat Squads

When Space Wolves want to play the MSU Razorspam game they use up one FOC Troop choice as well as the Elites FOC slot to add the Wolf Guard for one Razorspam MSU unit.

Well Space Marines get their nifty Combat Squads which allows them to have their MSU unit, Sergeant, +4 and also have their heavy weapon combat squad sitting in cover, either home objective sitting or providing additional long range missile fire.

Break it down;

The difference between 3 Wolf Guard with 3 Grey Hunter Razorspam MSU and 3 Combat squaded, SM Tactical Razorspam MSU is 261 pts. That 261pts is an additional 15 Space Marines, split up into 3 additional non-FOC Troop choices, and 3 missile launchers.

That same 261pts to the Space Wolves players is the saving from having to use a Elites FOC slot, having less bodies, and having less heavy weapon support.

And you are going to whine and cry about Counter-attack, Acute Senses, and bp/bolter/ccw?

Since there is so many tears about Long Fangs, lets look at them next;

Space Wolves: Long Fangs versus Devastators:

6x Long Fangs w/5x ML costs 140pts.

10 Devastators w/4x ML costs 230pts.

Back to the wonder of Combat Squads, the Devastators can now fire at two separate targets, JUST like the Long Fangs, albeit with 1 shot less.

The first casualty on the Devastators does not effect their ability to deliver long range fire one bit. The first casualty on the Long Fangs eliminates Spilt Fire. The second casualty on Devastators does not affect long range fire. The second casualty on the Long Fangs and they have now had their long range fire reduced by 20%. This does not include whatever value can be placed on losing Split Fire on the initial casualty.

And thus it plays out that when the first Devastator with a missile launcher is finally removed and their long range fire is reduced by 50%, the Long Fang pack will lost 60% of their long range fire, discounting the value placed on losing Split Fire on the first casualty.

The kicker is that is only one of the Devastator combat squads. The other Devastators are still firing two missile launchers and still have 3 bolter SM with them to absorb wounds. The original Devastator pack is still firing at 75% (1 left in one combat squad, 2 left in the other) while the Long Fang pack is now down to 40%. 90pts to remain at 75% long range fire efficiency? That is a bargain.

And again, you still want to whine about Counter-attack, Acute Senses, and bp/bolter/ccw?

As I first mentioned, make a valid comparison instead of just crying about what the older SM codex lacks in in view of the Wolves codex. Hell even the fluff comparison is a not valid when you compare the SW codex to the new fluff being presented in the BA and GK codices.

Tyr Grimtooth wrote:
Jayden did a pretty good breakdown on what Space Wolves were and what they have become. All that continued afterward was more,

"Well my codex can't do the same thing!! WAAAAAHHHH!"

Please read the thread before responding. No one rational is complaining that Space Wolves are better than Space Marines, they're complaining because Space Wolves are better, but also cheaper.

DarknessEternal wrote:

Tyr Grimtooth wrote:
Jayden did a pretty good breakdown on what Space Wolves were and what they have become. All that continued afterward was more,

"Well my codex can't do the same thing!! WAAAAAHHHH!"

Please read the thread before responding. No one rational is complaining that Space Wolves are better than Space Marines, they're complaining because Space Wolves are better, but also cheaper.

Vak does twice on this page alone and he seems pretty rational when he isn't crying about the Space Wolves and tries to make a comparison between them and Space Marine Tactical squads.

And I pointed out that being cheaper is not necessarily a good thing when the extra points spent open up options the Space Wolves do not get.

Tyr Grimtooth wrote:
"Well my codex can't do the same thing!! WAAAAAHHHH!"

if you equate discussion and comparison with "waaaahhh"

IT IS A CRAP COMPARISON CONSIDERING THE AGE OF THE SPACE MARINE CODEX!!!

You mean, less than a year older than Codex: Space Wolves?

Anyone miss that? If you want a true comparison look to the Blood Angels codex and the Grey Knights codex. When you are facing Assault Marines as troops, DoA, and discounted fast tanks, suddenly Counterattack and Acute Senses are not the big scary monster in the closet.

GH's are noticeably better than Assault Marines lets not try and say otherwise. Descent of Angels is of highly situational utility and means little in the popular mechanized armies. The Fast tanks are a factor yet, but not *that* big. The bigger thing with BA's is Baals as FA units and Blood Talons able to carve through entire Ork mobs in one round of CC (hooray no-retreat!). BA's can't pack in the firepower and dumbers that SW's can, which is what makes the real difference in power level between the two.

When you have squads full of NFW, Hammerhand, and offhand storm bolters. suddenly having a bolt pistol/bolter/ccw is not overpowered.

These are of marginal utility against many foes, they don't mean much against tanks or weeny infantry. They mean lots when fighting other Space Marines, but they aren't cheap and die like other marines, meaning it's easier to destroy them as there are fewer of them. They also don't have the same array of fighting vehicles that most other marine chapters have and limited (though admittedly strong) options for long range firepower (basically just rifleman dreads).

Space Wolves: Grey Hunters; Leadership 8

Leadership 8: Yea, that spiffy Counter-attack everyone keeps complaining about, is tested on that nice leadership 8. But hey, so is pinning, morale checks to shooting, and morale checks to losing assault.

Yeah, so those abilities are going off nearly 75% of the time, and most units will have an Ld9 Wolf Guard sergeant attached so it's sorta moot. You'll notice basic Tac marines are also Ld8.

Grey Hunters do not get a nifty little sergeant in the pack to boost leadership. Grey Hunters need to get a Wolf Guard pack leader to get that leadership boost which costs 3x, since you have to buy them in 3's and also costs a Elite FOC slot.

rarely an issue as few armies don't take at least 3 and Elite slots in SW armies aren't exactly in huge demand or competition.

This also plays into army composition as well. A SM tactical squad is 9+1, full geared with special and heavy weapon. No problem fitting in their transport or combat squading and still having half the unit able to run in a transport. Grey Hunters are 10. If we drop one member to get a Wolf Guard and fit in a transport, we lose a special weapon. We can't combat squad, so there is never 10+1, splitting up and still allowing a transport.

The tac squad rarely gets a whole lot of use out of its Heavy, lets be honest. Additionally the Wolf Guard sergeant is noticeably cheaper than a Marine sergeant (whcih contribute 30pts to squad cost instead of 18) and has significantly cheaper upgrade options, with combi-weapons being half the cost and powerweapons 5pts off as well, in addition to having more options in total.

Space Wolves: Grey Hunters: No Combat Squads

When Space Wolves want to play the MSU Razorspam game they use up one FOC Troop choice as well as the Elites FOC slot to add the Wolf Guard for one Razorspam MSU unit.

While it might be cool, as close range assault/shooty units or min/max razorspam units, not a huge loss. You're either going to play them like CSM units (which don't want to split up as they're assault oriented) or you're taking a small unit anyway.

Well Space Marines get their nifty Combat Squads which allows them to have their MSU unit, Sergeant, +4 and also have their heavy weapon combat squad sitting in cover, either home objective sitting or providing additional long range missile fire.

Which is cool and all, and can definitely be useful, but again, of limited value given the GH's wargear, options and abilities.

The difference between 3 Wolf Guard with 3 Grey Hunter Razorspam MSU and 3 Combat squaded, SM Tactical Razorspam MSU is 261 pts. That 261pts is an additional 15 Space Marines, split up into 3 additional non-FOC Troop choices, and 3 missile launchers.

That same 261pts to the Space Wolves players is the saving from having to use a Elites FOC slot, having less bodies, and having less heavy weapon support.

This is a bit disingenous as you're only looking at FoC slots, which rarely get totally filled, especially with SW's. Those points could buy you another min/max GH Razorback unit and Predator.

And you are going to whine and cry about Counter-attack, Acute Senses, and bp/bolter/ccw?

Given how much more powerful they make those units...yup.

6x Long Fangs w/5x ML costs 140pts.

10 Devastators w/4x ML costs 230pts.

Back to the wonder of Combat Squads, the Devastators can now fire at two separate targets, JUST like the Long Fangs, albeit with 1 shot less.

1 shot less, 90pts more, no Counterattack, no Acute Senses (makes a difference for Night Fight games)

The first casualty on the Devastators does not effect their ability to deliver long range fire one bit. The first casualty on the Long Fangs eliminates Spilt Fire. The second casualty on Devastators does not affect long range fire. The second casualty on the Long Fangs and they have now had their long range fire reduced by 20%. This does not include whatever value can be placed on losing Split Fire on the initial casualty.

Right, the Devastators are hardier. Nobody is saying this isn't true.

However, given the much greater first turn alpha strike capability (which is *huge* in 40k), the smaller points costs allowing for more firepower and units elsewhere, and the fact that units like Devastators and Long Fangs often don't come under attack quickly against many opponents, it's very difficult to say that the Devastators are anywhere near on par.

The kicker is that is only one of the Devastator combat squads. The other Devastators are still firing two missile launchers and still have 3 bolter SM with them to absorb wounds. The original Devastator pack is still firing at 75% (1 left in one combat squad, 2 left in the other) while the Long Fang pack is now down to 40%. 90pts to remain at 75% long range fire efficiency? That is a bargain.

And yet, you see Devastators in Marine armies...how often?

Infrequently at best, certainly not routinely 3 of them. You're way over-emphasizing the survivability aspect here.

Often by the time an enemy can engage these units, they've already done their job.

And again, you still want to whine about Counter-attack, Acute Senses, and bp/bolter/ccw?

Again, yes.

And I pointed out that being cheaper is not necessarily a good thing when the extra points spent open up options the Space Wolves do not get.

there's relatively little that SW's don't get that other Marine books do barring specialty niche units like Sanguinary Guard and thunderfire cannons. They still get all the basic vehicles and weapons, and in fact generally each of their units typically has as many or more options than equivalents.

The only one I see whining and crying in here is you, Tyr.

Any valid point you might make is overshadowed by the bile you're spewing on top of it. Perhaps its because deep down inside he knows we're right.

Methinks he doth protest too much...?

Nobody objects to their awesomeness, just their cost methinks. It is not just slightly out-of-line for the game effect, which can happen between codex release or different rules. that turns the munchkin players armies into carbon copy spam.. it is drastically underpriced.

I think my ultramarine vets can split their fire too, they would have white beards too but they shave. The company I play will just import its missile lunchers from Fenris. If that's not cool... then neither is spamming the obvious again and again at the expense of other people's desire to play with me.

Methinks when C:SM gets an update the buzz about SW will be over for all but the core players that would have been SW anyway.

I've always wanted to point at the fluff for Long Fangs and say ," my army includes Dante, the oldest living space marine. Because of his leadership and experience each individual Blood Angel in my army except scouts may aim and fire his weapon independently."

Tyr Grimtooth wrote:
And I pointed out that being cheaper is not necessarily a good thing

Sorry, no one should be listening to you anymore. You agree they are better, and then you say being cheaper isn't a positive. That level of insanity doesn't get to participate in discussions.

Hell compare a wolf guard with a fist/combi melta vs the same armed vanilla sgt variant:

Wolf guard - 43pts (+counter attack and acute senses)
Vanilla - 61pts

Oh no I give up an elite slot that I wasnt going to fill anyway. Most of the space wolf elites are underwhelming, unless you want some riflemen dreads in there to compliment the 20+ missile shots.

Luke_Prowler wrote:Normal Devastators can split fire, but they have to combat squad to do it. The reason Long Fangs are annoying is not because they can split fire, but the fact that they can do without any draw backs like regular Devastators

Except at most LF can field 6 models, all valuable and typically within 1-2 wounds they lose their leader and thus their split fire ability anyway. A devastator squad can fill 5 spaces with wound taking bolter marines and yes if they want to they can combat squad.

Long Fangs have their weaknesses but let's just ignore those to prove a point

Kijamon wrote:

Luke_Prowler wrote:Normal Devastators can split fire, but they have to combat squad to do it. The reason Long Fangs are annoying is not because they can split fire, but the fact that they can do without any draw backs like regular Devastators

Except at most LF can field 6 models, all valuable and typically within 1-2 wounds they lose their leader and thus their split fire ability anyway. A devastator squad can fill 5 spaces with wound taking bolter marines and yes if they want to they can combat squad.

Long Fangs have their weaknesses but let's just ignore those to prove a point

Their weaknesses are over-shadowed completely with stupid advantages, but lets just ignore them to prove a point.

iproxtaco wrote:

Kijamon wrote:

Luke_Prowler wrote:Normal Devastators can split fire, but they have to combat squad to do it. The reason Long Fangs are annoying is not because they can split fire, but the fact that they can do without any draw backs like regular Devastators

Except at most LF can field 6 models, all valuable and typically within 1-2 wounds they lose their leader and thus their split fire ability anyway. A devastator squad can fill 5 spaces with wound taking bolter marines and yes if they want to they can combat squad.

Long Fangs have their weaknesses but let's just ignore those to prove a point

Their weaknesses are over-shadowed completely with stupid advantages, but lets just ignore them to prove a point.

What would you do to them?

Increase the points by a few per model? I could understand that but I wouldn't go overboard with the costs.

Remove split fire? Well then I'd wonder why? It'd go against the fluff and it'd make them a poor choice over a predator or a vindicator.

Limit their weapons loadout to 0-2 of each weapon? That'd be a bit ridiculous IMO, it makes tactical sense to have a unit full of the same weapon for range and knowing what to use each squad for.

Most people have problems with the space wolves meta game and the use of transports to pulverise opponents. That isn't the codexes fault. That's the must win at any cost brigades fault.

I hate space wolves because one sunny day in 2002 a puppies player said, "pull my finger"

Kijamon wrote:

iproxtaco wrote:

Kijamon wrote:

Luke_Prowler wrote:Normal Devastators can split fire, but they have to combat squad to do it. The reason Long Fangs are annoying is not because they can split fire, but the fact that they can do without any draw backs like regular Devastators

Except at most LF can field 6 models, all valuable and typically within 1-2 wounds they lose their leader and thus their split fire ability anyway. A devastator squad can fill 5 spaces with wound taking bolter marines and yes if they want to they can combat squad.

Long Fangs have their weaknesses but let's just ignore those to prove a point

Their weaknesses are over-shadowed completely with stupid advantages, but lets just ignore them to prove a point.

What would you do to them?

Increase the points by a few per model? I could understand that but I wouldn't go overboard with the costs.

Remove split fire? Well then I'd wonder why? It'd go against the fluff and it'd make them a poor choice over a predator or a vindicator.

Limit their weapons loadout to 0-2 of each weapon? That'd be a bit ridiculous IMO, it makes tactical sense to have a unit full of the same weapon for range and knowing what to use each squad for.

Most people have problems with the space wolves meta game and the use of transports to pulverise opponents. That isn't the codexes fault. That's the must win at any cost brigades fault.

Increase their points. If it's going to be so much better, at least make it more expensive by a significant margin. Not everything in the codex needs 101 reasons why they're so awesome compared to their Codex marines equivalent.
And yes, it is the damn codices fault for allowing such over-powered options in the first place. Or more correctly, it's Phil Kelly's fault.

6 pages on why space wolves are overpowered.

Please continue, my fellow Dakkanese.

terranarc wrote:6 pages on why space wolves are overpowered.

Please continue, my fellow Dakkanese.

We're Dakkanaughts...

purplefood wrote:

terranarc wrote:6 pages on why space wolves are overpowered.

Please continue, my fellow Dakkanese.

We're Dakkanaughts...

I refuse to label you all as Dramanaughts despite the accuracy.

terranarc wrote:

purplefood wrote:

terranarc wrote:6 pages on why space wolves are overpowered.

Please continue, my fellow Dakkanese.

We're Dakkanaughts...

I refuse to label you all as Dramanaughts despite the accuracy.

You'd be one too. One of us, one of us, one of us.

iproxtaco wrote:

terranarc wrote:

purplefood wrote:

terranarc wrote:6 pages on why space wolves are overpowered.

Please continue, my fellow Dakkanese.

We're Dakkanaughts...

I refuse to label you all as Dramanaughts despite the accuracy.

You'd be one too. One of us, one of us, one of us.

Join us...

Ravenous D wrote:Hell compare a wolf guard with a fist/combi melta vs the same armed vanilla sgt variant:

Wolf guard - 43pts (+counter attack and acute senses)
Vanilla - 61pts

Oh no I give up an elite slot that I wasnt going to fill anyway. Most of the space wolf elites are underwhelming, unless you want some riflemen dreads in there to compliment the 20+ missile shots.

One will only be getting the more than 18 ML shots if you add Wolf Guard with Cyclones to the LF... Thus giving up an Elite slot.

One will only be getting the more than 18 ML shots if you add Wolf Guard with Cyclones to the LF... Thus giving up an Elite slot.

Or take land speeders. You could theoretically have 33 missiles flying across the board a turn before a single missile equipped elite choices gets set down on it. (Excluding HK missiles.)

My wolves run with WG sergeants. With the loss of one elite slot (Which is truly horrible, as the elites rack for SW have so many options that warrant spending the points on over troops/FA/HS....) I put a sergeant in my GH and LF packs, and if I decide I want to bump the WG pack up to 10 to give me a few terminators to put in a pod or a raider (Which I tend to do anyway..) oh dear...I have two cyclone slots made availible in the process! I am truly chewing my elite slots up at an incredible rate!

What would you do to them?

Increase the points by a few per model? I could understand that but I wouldn't go overboard with the costs.

Not a darn thing, were I in charge of GW. I would reduce the devastator costs accordingly, or, give them an equivalent special rule. Perhaps a signum that is actually useful? (Reroll cover saves ala null zone, ignore cover, BS5 for all heavy weapons, what have you.) because ....in a lean list, dumping 80 more points per squad for a ghetto version of split fire, adding kill points to your list, and somewhat academic durability is a bit hilarious.

Wow this page got out of hand fast! lol I just wanted to hear some reasoning on why they are renowned as a very OP army. I now see your points, thanks everyone

Kijamon wrote:
Except at most LF can field 6 models, all valuable and typically within 1-2 wounds they lose their leader and thus their split fire ability anyway. A devastator squad can fill 5 spaces with wound taking bolter marines and yes if they want to they can combat squad.

At about 65% more points and with fewer guns.

Long Fangs have their weaknesses but let's just ignore those to prove a point

If you'd bothered to actually read the thread and the arguments, you'd see this has already been addressed. The super cheap cost, split fire ability, and extra weapon combine to make a greater fire support unit, especially for turn 1 alpha strikes, than Devastators are.

Again, there is a reason you rarely see Devastators in SM armies, and almost never 3, while 3 units of Long Fangs are Tournament Standard.

Kijamon wrote:

What would you do to them?

Increase the points by a few per model? I could understand that but I wouldn't go overboard with the costs.

They're grossly undercosted, lets be honest. Even at an additional 5ppm (making a 5x ML squad 170pts) they'd still be probably the most cost effective infantry fire support unit in the game. Tossing another 15 to account for the split fire ability to get 185pts would probably be the most reasonable answer. Then they're still very effective, and more cost effective first turn alpha strike units than Devastators (and still far and away more cost effective and survivable point for point than say, IG Heavy Weapons Squads which are 180pts for 6 BS3 T3 5+sv Ld7 missile launchers that are vulnerable to ID) but they wouldn't be spammable in the same way they are now, especially at lower level points games (1500 and under).

Remove split fire? Well then I'd wonder why? It'd go against the fluff and it'd make them a poor choice over a predator or a vindicator.

Fluff abilities like that change all the time, and it's difficult to believe that losing split fire alone is going to make them a poor choice. 5 BS4 missiles for 140pts is far more firepower than you can get out of any other SW HS choice.

Limit their weapons loadout to 0-2 of each weapon? That'd be a bit ridiculous IMO, it makes tactical sense to have a unit full of the same weapon for range and knowing what to use each squad for.

Or it'd provide and incentive to configure squads specifically to utilize split-fire and cut down on spam.

Most people have problems with the space wolves meta game and the use of transports to pulverise opponents. That isn't the codexes fault. That's the must win at any cost brigades fault.

Lets not lie here, a broken unit is the codex's fault. If it wasn't broken, there wouldn't be anything for the WAAC crowd to use.

I think GK are far more broken. And while I haven't read GK fluff, I have suffered an ignoble defeat (500pt armys, I got one kill. The HQ) at their hands. I HAVE read SW fluff and I have to agree that while I don't care about how the chapter plays per-se, I DO care that there is an incredibly gay army prancing around on doggies and with a mutation to their geneseed so self evident that the Inquisition, Codex Astartes, and a good portion of the Imperium of Man should have wiped them out long ago...

Long live the fighters of Ultramar!!

Grimtuff wrote:One will only be getting the more than 18 ML shots if you add Wolf Guard with Cyclones to the LF... Thus giving up an Elite slot.

Yeah, except that the SW player can take a Wolf Guard unit with the Cyclone terminator AND the melta/fist 'sergeants' in one unit, and then split them among the squads. Thus NOT giving up an Elite slot.

I don't understand how some people just can't see the facts. A grey hunter, over a tactical marine, has the bp/ccw making him better in assault, counter attack making him better in assault, and acute senses which doesn't do much even if it is a night fight. A grey hunter squad, over a tactical squad, can take 1 special at 5 men, and 2 specials at 10, can take a wolf standard greatly increasing their effectiveness for one key phase for only 10 points, and take a wulfen marine to greatly increase the squads effectiveness for 15 points. They also usually add a wolf guard, who has the same benefits as the grey hunters over a regular sergeant, with even more options.

From all of that, it should be obvious to anyone that grey hunters are superior to tactical marines. Don't tell me that they shouldn't be compared, because they are the main troops choice of two marine codices where there is a ton of overlap and most stuff is just the same.

So now, we have the fact that grey hunters are better than tactical marines, and that it is a fair comparison to make. So why in God's name are they one point cheaper? The sergeant equivalent is 15 points cheaper! How can anyone sit here with a straight face and say that's acceptable?

Someone earlier said something about not comparing them to C:SM because it is older, which was then pointed out to be an exaggeration as C:SM isn't even a year older. That person also said, compare them to Blood Angels who get assault marines as troops. So lets do that:

9 Grey Hunters, 1 meltagun, 1 wolf standard, 1 mark of the wulfen, with a wolf guard who has a combi-melta/powerfist, in a rhino. 243 points.

10 BA Assault Marines, 2 meltaguns, sergeant with Infernus pistol and powerfist, no jump packs, in a rhino. 265 points.

First off, the BA have to replace their pistols to get the special weapons, so they lose an attack. EVEN on the charge, the MORE expensive BA squad will LOSE to the Grey Hunters.

It doesn't matter who you compare them to. They can either be powerful but expensive, average both in ability and cost, or weak but cheap. Powerful and cheap should never be an option.

I don't particularly care about the current incarnation of SW's; but how can anyone complain about their fluff in a universe where Orks can exist. It's inconceivable that anything in the SW codex can offend reason more than the slowed concept of Orks in space.

I know this is Dakka, so let the flaming begin.

It just had to be said.

I think that is because certain things have been set in stone in the 40K universe. Orks are ridiculous, yes, but they have always been there, doing the silly things they do. Space Wolves used to be slightly different Space Marines, with a few odd traditions and some special abilities. They were still, however, the noble and proud warriors of the Emperor who went to battle in much the same manner as all of the other marines.

By changing this, and adding ridiculous stuff like a heavily armored super soldier who rides to battle on a giant wolf, they gave people a reason to complain. Marines riding giant wolves is a stupid, silly concept. Orks were always silly, they're supposed to be funny. Space Wolves are not.

Doomsdave wrote:I don't particularly care about the current incarnation of SW's; but how can anyone complain about their fluff in a universe where Orks can exist. It's inconceivable that anything in the SW codex can offend reason more than the slowed concept of Orks in space.

I know this is Dakka, so let the flaming begin.

It just had to be said.

Well, Orks are honestly usually treated like fodder, for one.

Why do you find the idea of Orks in space ridiculous?

I wasn't gonna sift through 6 pages to find if I am original or not, but I hate Space Wolves for their appearance. I don't think power armor and crazy hair belong together. I like the rules, even if a few cry OP, and I love ALL mythology, including Norse (Arjak, Lukas, Fenris, etc), but I don't feel power armor and wild hair mix. I think a lot of the models look goofy and gacky. The trinkets on the armor look overdone and gaudy, and they don't impress me. As said though, I like the book, and I look forward to Phil's writing of the Black Templar codex. Just add to it buddy, leave my weapon costs alone I like 6pt plasma, 2 wound Techmarines with access to bikes, stormshields and servo harnesses, and 20pt TMLs and ACs.

As long as he doesn't put Black Templars on giant, genetically modified barded horses... oh lord.

True, but I am hoping for power lance options for the bikers. It would be fluffy from a knight perspective, and the lances already exist in the Eldar codex. So there is no reason not to. But yeah, genetically modified barded horses...no. However, fantasy DOES have MECHANICAL horses for Empire.... *thoughtful face*

Doomsdave wrote:I don't particularly care about the current incarnation of SW's; but how can anyone complain about their fluff in a universe where Orks can exist. It's inconceivable that anything in the SW codex can offend reason more than the slowed concept of Orks in space.

I know this is Dakka, so let the flaming begin.

It just had to be said.

Because the Orks aren't taking themselves seriously. Everything about the Orks is upfront with its sillyness in a way that fits the setting, it's not trying to portray its sillyness as anything but sillyness. The SW's try to pass off the same sillyness as "Serious GRIMDARK Hero" stuff, so it comes off looking like bad internet fanfic.

Vaktathi wrote:

Doomsdave wrote:I don't particularly care about the current incarnation of SW's; but how can anyone complain about their fluff in a universe where Orks can exist. It's inconceivable that anything in the SW codex can offend reason more than the slowed concept of Orks in space.

I know this is Dakka, so let the flaming begin.

It just had to be said.

Because the Orks aren't taking themselves seriously. Everything about the Orks is upfront with its sillyness in a way that fits the setting, it's not trying to portray its sillyness as anything but sillyness. The SW's try to pass off the same sillyness as "Serious GRIMDARK Hero" stuff, so it comes off looking like bad internet fanfic.

Fair enough. I see the 40K universe as one big saturday morning cartoon (populated by cardboard cut-outs for "characters") designed to sell "action figures" anyway. And that's OK & can be fun. It just seems silly to demand serious and thoughtful fluff from a universe that can contain Orks.

I suspect, often because they get their arse handed to them by a SW player, so they suddenly hate Space Wolves.

Gop wrote:I suspect, often because they get their arse handed to them by a SW player, so they suddenly hate Space Wolves.

So? While that might be true, that doesn't make our complaints any less valid.

Doomsdave wrote:

Vaktathi wrote:

Doomsdave wrote:I don't particularly care about the current incarnation of SW's; but how can anyone complain about their fluff in a universe where Orks can exist. It's inconceivable that anything in the SW codex can offend reason more than the slowed concept of Orks in space.

I know this is Dakka, so let the flaming begin.

It just had to be said.

Because the Orks aren't taking themselves seriously. Everything about the Orks is upfront with its sillyness in a way that fits the setting, it's not trying to portray its sillyness as anything but sillyness. The SW's try to pass off the same sillyness as "Serious GRIMDARK Hero" stuff, so it comes off looking like bad internet fanfic.

Fair enough. I see the 40K universe as one big saturday morning cartoon (populated by cardboard cut-outs for "characters") designed to sell "action figures" anyway. And that's OK & can be fun. It just seems silly to demand serious and thoughtful fluff from a universe that can contain Orks.

I like orks but then again I'm a pretty silly guy. thier fluff makes sense in its own orky way... SW i can't comment on thier fluff... heck i could care less abotu most fluff its amusing btu I mostly want to play the game and the reason i dislike space wolves is they are overpowered/unbalanced/undercosted

the examples are mostly already up in this thread for the over powered and undercosted

I'd liek to throw one more hat into the ring with the unbalanced... one psychic power.. JotWW is jsut too effective against some armies. I'll use orks as the example... 30 orks w/ nob bp and pk JoTWW the nob... you pass and of coarse it goes thorugh and knocks out the nob... now i have a few orks and hte nob goen and even if my orks get the attack off they will eb counter attackesd and they will be wiped out since they have no way of getting through the power armor without a pk

They are smelly, loud and have no regard for tactics... (I play Dark Angels and have a friend who plays Space Wolves, hilarity always ensues)

In all honesty, I have nothing against them, kinda like the whole Norse feel they have.

lledwey wrote:

Grimtuff wrote:One will only be getting the more than 18 ML shots if you add Wolf Guard with Cyclones to the LF... Thus giving up an Elite slot.

Yeah, except that the SW player can take a Wolf Guard unit with the Cyclone terminator AND the melta/fist 'sergeants' in one unit, and then split them among the squads. Thus NOT giving up an Elite slot.

What the hell are you talking about? You take WG, you use up an Elite slot. Simples. Regardless of if the unit no longer exists due to them splitting up the Elite slot is still used as WG are assigned during deployment, not during army list creation.

Grimtuff wrote:

Ravenous D wrote:Hell compare a wolf guard with a fist/combi melta vs the same armed vanilla sgt variant:

Wolf guard - 43pts (+counter attack and acute senses)
Vanilla - 61pts

Oh no I give up an elite slot that I wasnt going to fill anyway. Most of the space wolf elites are underwhelming, unless you want some riflemen dreads in there to compliment the 20+ missile shots.

One will only be getting the more than 18 ML shots if you add Wolf Guard with Cyclones to the LF... Thus giving up an Elite slot.

3 Typhoons, the most underrated fast attack option. So take your facepalm and with a giraffe.

What I meant, grimtuff, is that youre using that slot already because of the wolf guard for your troop squads. Therefore, taking the CML guy doesn't actually use up another slot; you were using it anyway.

iproxtaco wrote:

Brother Coa wrote:

Botten3 wrote:Please explain your reasoning clearly, I would like to hear your reasoning.

I like them?

But I think it is generally because they have the most marines ( around 12.000 ), bigger fleet ( even from the Segmentum fleet ), some kind of weird faith ( they even battle SoB because of it ) and because they are sometimes dickheads... ( they are compared to furies to )

But come on guys...how can someone hate, crazy, drunk space vikings? They are pure awesome...

They don't number around 12,000 and their fleet is not bigger than the Segmentum Fleet.

actually they do number round 12,000 sorry dude.

Grey elder wrote:actually they do number round 12,000 sorry dude.

By all means, provide evidence that proves this.

Void__Dragon wrote:

Grey elder wrote:actually they do number round 12,000 sorry dude.

By all means, provide evidence that proves this.

Group Pic or it didn't happen.

Grey elder wrote:

iproxtaco wrote:

Brother Coa wrote:

Botten3 wrote:Please explain your reasoning clearly, I would like to hear your reasoning.

I like them?

But I think it is generally because they have the most marines ( around 12.000 ), bigger fleet ( even from the Segmentum fleet ), some kind of weird faith ( they even battle SoB because of it ) and because they are sometimes dickheads... ( they are compared to furies to )

But come on guys...how can someone hate, crazy, drunk space vikings? They are pure awesome...

They don't number around 12,000 and their fleet is not bigger than the Segmentum Fleet.

actually they do number round 12,000 sorry dude.

The current codex says that Ragnar's company at about 200 strong is the second largest. If we assume the other companies are an average of say, 150 strong to be generous, and that Grimnar's is 300 strong, that puts us at exactly 2000 Space Wolves.

G00fySmiley wrote:

Doomsdave wrote:

Vaktathi wrote:

Doomsdave wrote:It's inconceivable that anything in the SW codex can offend reason more than the slowed concept of Orks in space.

Because the Orks aren't taking themselves seriously. Everything about the Orks is upfront with its sillyness in a way that fits the setting.

It just seems silly to demand serious and thoughtful fluff from a universe that can contain Orks.

I like orks but then again I'm a pretty silly guy.

I don't see orks as "silly" at all. They fulfill the role of the barbarians, living only too fight. Using ramshackle vehicles to close the distance, guns chosen for their noise rather than effectiveness, cc weapons that could cleave a man in half. Silly indeed.



Anyway, on the space wolves. The biggest thing I dislike would have to be people referring to them as 'Space Puppies'. Seriously? is it meant to be funny?

People calling them 'crazy drunk space vikings' and using that as an excuse too like them.

1. Fluff (as represented in Horus Heresy). In short, they're hypocritical bullies.

2. Codex power. It's a shame because there are a lot of well-implemented flavourful units, but Kelly clearly undercosted units in at least four of the FoC sections (rune priests, grey hunters, thunderwolves, longfangs) leading inevitably to too many cheesy cookie-cutter lists.

That said, I'm still happier to see any iteration of the Wolves across the table than chimera-spam or blood angels' razor/predator spam.

Grey elder wrote:

iproxtaco wrote:

Brother Coa wrote:

Botten3 wrote:Please explain your reasoning clearly, I would like to hear your reasoning.

I like them?

But I think it is generally because they have the most marines ( around 12.000 ), bigger fleet ( even from the Segmentum fleet ), some kind of weird faith ( they even battle SoB because of it ) and because they are sometimes dickheads... ( they are compared to furies to )

But come on guys...how can someone hate, crazy, drunk space vikings? They are pure awesome...

They don't number around 12,000 and their fleet is not bigger than the Segmentum Fleet.

actually they do number round 12,000 sorry dude.

No, they do not. The second largest Great Company, Blackmane's IIIRC, numbers around 200, this is either in Index Astartes or your own fething codex.

Drunken space vikings sounds are pretty stupid. No offense to players or fans.