I'm guessing that if Grotsnik switches on his PK, he strikes last, wounds on a 4+ with a re-roll, ignores saves and inflicts ID on T≤4? And if he switches it off, he strikes in I order and gets +1A for Slugga and CCW?

The rules do not cover what to do if you have three different close combat weapons.

See the many, many debates on marneus calgar.

However, since you are no longer given the explicit option to turn off a special weapon (which was present in previous editions) it seems to be the consensus that if you have a special weapon then you use it.

Scott-S6 wrote:The rules do not cover what to do if you have three different close combat weapons.

See the many, many debates on marneus calgar.

While they do not cover how to handle 3 CCWs, they do Cover how to handle 2 different Specials(I m not including into the following the "never getting 2CCW bonus attack" portion):

Lindsay That will never Happen. Grotsnik uses either the Power Klaw, or the 'Urty Sirynge, never both at the same time and definitely never combining all the effects of both.

Your Choices are:

A) Strike at Initiative, wounding on a 4+ with a re-roll against T4 or less enemies(T5 or less during a Charge), with Saves allowed.

or

B) Strike at I1, with a Str 8(9 on the Charge) and denying Armor saves.

P.S. Scott: 'Urty Sirynge and PK are both Special weapons, so the option to use one or the other is there(and itself denies 2CCW bonus attacks regardless of any other weapons available).

That's what I just said. We will get someone coming in with the "if you've got more than 2 CCW you just pick any two of them to use" argument though....


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lindsay40k wrote:gets +1A for Slugga and CCW?

FYI - Grotsnik doesn't have a CCW - just the Klaw and the Syringe.

D'oh, I get it now, I was coming at things from a Tyranid 'upgrades to melee attacks' background that ignores the usual rules for this sort of thing

I know this is an old thread and sorry to raise the dead, but I was searching for this topic specifically concerning grotsnik and how his urty Syringe mechanic works because I am interested in fielding him in my first ork Army.

Just today I asked a GW employee this question and he explained the Urty Syringe as being like a buff/Poison on a weapon, not a weapon in and of itself. He considered it a CCW enhancement so to say.

So Grotsnik would get 5PK(4 attacks and 2 CCW's = +1) at I1, if any of them wound with a 4+ then instant wound unless invulnerable/FNP save. He explained the intended usage is that urty syringes are intended as a monster killer.

I am totally new at this game so I am just taking his word on it, but it seems to vary hugely from what you guys are saying.

Grots R OP wrote:Just today I asked a GW employee this question and he explained the Urty Syringe as being like a buff/Poison on a weapon, not a weapon in and of itself.

Proving that working for GW doesn't guarantee that someone actually knows the rules.

The 'urty Syringe is a Poisoned Weapon.

True enough, but the guy has been playing for 16 years so that's why I am asking. Also I made an edit not ID but unsavable wound is what I meant. Sorry still learning the lingo a bit.

Welcome to 40K and the Orks!

You'll find that a fair number of rules are somewhat vaguely written and open to interpretation. The writers are only human, after all.

In this case, the rules as written are pretty clear, as I realised over the course of the thread: "An 'Urty Syringe is a Poisoned Weapon..." Ork Codex, pg38

Grots R OP wrote:True enough, but the guy has been playing for 16 years so that's why I am asking.

You'll find that long-time vets are often just as likely (if not more so) to get the rules wrong as newbies. There are a lot of rules in this game, and they change every few years.

In this particular case, experience is no match for just looking at the rules for the 'urty Syringe.

Yep, I know orks are not his main either. The urty syringe buff rule sort of sounded wrong tbh that's why I was searching here. BTW thanks for the replies this site is pretty friggin cool.

So if I get it right:

At beginning of Ork CC round, Grotsnik would choose Syring or PK to strike with.

Syringe comes in at initiative 3 vs 1 for the PK as normal.

In a normal combat round grotsnik could strike 4 times with either weapon but not both.

He gets 4 attacks as listed in his A column, but not the extra 5th attack because he has two specialty weapons and that rule over rides the Slugga he is toting that would otherwise grant him a 5th attack.

Amirite?

if he uses one of the weps the slugga is still just chilling there on him so he would get the bonus attack it dosent say only 2 close combat attacks also
he has 3 close combat weapons so he would get the bonus regardless of witch he chooses L

Pretty much, yeah. The only debatable part is whether or not he can gain the +1 for two weapons from his slugga... you'll find that people are actually a bit divided on that one.

Best option (at least until GW get around to clarifying how two special weapons work when the model has more than 2 weapons total) is to just confirm with your opponent before the game how it will be played.

Personally, I'm inclined to go with the model being allowed to choose which of the weapons he is using that round and basing bonus attacks on that, as I strongly suspect that this is the way that GW will rule it (if they ever do) since the hardline RAW stance suggested in this thread renders Marneus Calgar's twin powerfists largely pointless.

OK I can see the problem you are talking about now, for the SM Character Marneus you are talking about it would in fact render the twin fists pointless, at the same time it also nerfs snikrot if you allow him to use both and snikrot can't. Seems unfair at that point.

Oddly enough, allowing the SM character to use both and giving snikro that "Poison Buff" BUT NOTthe extra attack seems to be In the spirit of the game I would think. It's always better to give out appropriate buffs than to nerf anything in gaming. Nerfing things makes everyone mad, especially when it comes to boss characters who are supposed to be Uber-powerful.

Grots R OP wrote:OK I can see the problem you are talking about now, for the SM Character Marneus you are talking about it would in fact render the twin fists pointless, at the same time it also nerfs snikrot if you allow him to use both and snikrot can't. Seems unfair at that point.

Just to clarify here, under either interpretation, Snikrot can't use the klaw and the syringe. The argument is over whether or not he should be able to use the syringe and slugga or the klaw and slugga, or if having the klaw and syringe stops him rom receiving the bonus from the slugga (which is the commonly perceived RAW).

The side-issue for Marneus is that some players argue that the Gauntlets don't count as two weapons anyway, so it's (to them) not actually an issue.

My take on this isn't strictly RAW, it's just my opinion on how I think GW are likely to rule on it if they ever do.

Snikrot = Kommando upgrade

Grotsnik = Mad Dok

Got it. So the question is Does he store the claw in his Backpack and pick up the Slugga and get +1" or "Put the syringe in his hip pocket and then grab the slugga and get +1 attack".

I was going to say "it's pretty obvious under RAW that since he has two special weapons he would not get the +1 bonus."

You get a choice:

1. Attack at at I3 syringe @ 4-Syringe.
OR
2. Attack at I1 @_PK

You choose.

But then I looked at the picture in codex of grotsnik.

Clearly he can swing the PK and then pull the slugga trigger. Likewise he could poke you with syringe and pull the trigger. In the PK case, the slugga is "just a distraction that allows the PK to hit you better"-resulting in 5 attacks. And in the syringe case, the slugga blows a hole in you at short range-which allows the "missed" syringe poke's poison to seep into the wound-so +1.

Yep subjective indeed.

Kommissar Kel wrote:P.S. Scott: 'Urty Sirynge and PK are both Special weapons, so the option to use one or the other is there(and itself denies 2CCW bonus attacks regardless of any other weapons available).

But only if you are using 2 special CCW's

The BRB tells us that we can use up to two CCW's (P.37) "Models with more than two weapons gain no additional benefit"

P.42 covers this as well "Fighting with two single-handed weapons"

Only if you are using "Two different special weapons" then you follow the rules for "Two different special weapons"

"Two different special weapons when it is their turn to attack, these models must choose which weapon to use that turn, but they never get the bonus for using two..."

If you are not using Two different special weapons, then you do not use the rules for Two different special weapons.

Remember the section says "Some models are equipped with two single-handed weapons they can use in close combat, with the rules given below for the different possible combinations."

So you use the rules for the combination you are using.

Again this goes back to you cannot "use" 2 different SCCWs, becdause the rule tells you to choose 1 SCCW and use only it, and the rules for which weapons you "use" are based on which weapons combinations from the list you are equipped with.

You only ever have an option as to which weapon you Use, when you are equipped with more than 1 SCCW, and being equipped with 2 different Specials means that you must choose 1 to use and can never gain the benefit of having 2 CCWS(Special or otherwise).

Also the only way that grotsnik would be able to gain a bonus attack with one of his specials(if it were ever ruled to be the way your camp claims) is when using the Syringe and Slugga because his other special is a Power klaw(which is a Power fist), and that can only ever gain the bonus from a second Power klaw. Which is better, 5 savable attacks that wound on a 4+(and get a re-roll vs T4 or <, or 4 unsaveable attacks that wound most things on a 2+(and cause ID vs T4 or <? Also the power Klaw Denies FNP, the Syringe does not.

Hmm a decent resolution to this problem would be this:

The weapon you first attack with is the weapon you equip. You must use this weapon for the remainder of combat and cannot switch weapons until combat is resolved. You de-equip the other sccw which gives you a bonus attack.

Not codex but fair.(hey I'm a noob to wh40k but I have artwork from monster manual 2 tattoeed on my body and I can kick your ass at donkey kong).

They tell you to choose 1 SCCW of the two you are USING.

if you are not using Two different special weapons those rules do not apply.(They even go on to say that "Such is the penalty for wielding two different special weapons" So clearly if you are not wielding two different special weapons, you do not use the rules for such).

Equipped has nothing to do with the rules for using Two different special weapons.

Remember "Some models are equipped with two single-handed weapons they can use"

Two is a subset of three. so if you have three CCW's you have three sets of two CCW's. If you have the different sets of two, you must chose two weapons to use since (P.37) "Models with more than two weapons gain no additional benefit"

Pick two weapons to use, look up the rules for what you are using, and go from there.

Clearly they meant for Clagar to have 2 Power fists and a power sword and with 2 Power Fists clearly grant 1 bonis attack, since he only has two hands and can only wield two weapons. However the rules could have been more clear.

if it's not in your hand and it's not equipped it's not usable. two pk'z not an option so immovable object vs irresistable force not valid.

You wouldnt choose 2 because no benefit.

You choose one, stick w it till combat resolved.

Get bonus attack. +1

Buff not nerf.

Your american english confuses the brits and they will never understand wtf you are saying

buff don't nerf-makes people happy.

Whose my camp? Orks? yes.

I'm from Ohio, where you from Git?

DeathReaper wrote:They tell you to choose 1 SCCW of the two you are USING.

if you are not using Two different special weapons those rules do not apply.(They even go on to say that "Such is the penalty for wielding two different special weapons" So clearly if you are not wielding two different special weapons, you do not use the rules for such).

No they do not.

They tell you to choose which weapon to use in the 2 different SCCW rules.

Now I know what you are going to say: "but the paragraph under Fighting with 2 single handed weapons says the rules for the weapons "using"" To whit I will again reply: "no it does not, It says that "the models may be equipped with two weapons that they can use"."

Equipped has nothing to do with the rules for using Two different special weapons.

Remember "Some models are equipped with two single-handed weapons they can use"

Two is a subset of three. so if you have three CCW's you have three sets of two CCW's. If you have the different sets of two, you must chose two weapons to use since (P.37) "Models with more than two weapons gain no additional benefit"

Pick two weapons to use, look up the rules for what you are using, and go from there.

Equipped has everything to do with it; you really should have put the rest of the quote from page 42, it adds to context: "Some models are equipped with two single-handed weapons they can use in close combat, [b]with the rules given below for the different possible combinations."

You are equipped with 2(or more) single-handed CCWs, you then run through the list, you see that there are no rules for choice in combinations excepting the 2 different, which is not even a combination: you choose exactly 1.

Ad the first paragraph and being equipped with 2 single handed CCWs allow for the rules for use, then you get down to how the 2 different SCCW equipped models, you then must choose which to use(you can never use 2 different, says so in the rule so you cannot choose to use 2 different and the be told by the rules for 2 different that you cannot use 2 different).

But we can go further into that, when you have the choice (have 2 different Specials); the rule for the choice specifically says you choose 1 and never gain a bonus for a second.

You have no choice when equipped with 2, 3, 5, or 1000 Normal close combat weapons or normals and a single special; you do have a choice when you have 2 or more different special CCWs; and that choice then prevents you from ever gaining a bonus attack.

If you seem to think that you can choose which 2 weapons to use in any given circumstance; would you argue that you can again "Turn Off" a power fist should you be equipped with Bolt pistol, Power fist, and Chainsword; using the Bolt pistol and Chainsword? Or would you follow the rules for being equipped with a Normal and a Special, and always use the special?

Yes let's look at page 37 again shall we?

"Models with two single-handed weapons(snip) get an extra attack"

"with", not "using"; with, as in "having", "possessing", or "equipped with"

Then the part you quoted: "Models with more than two weapons gain no additional benefit" the choice to use just the 2 normals, or a normal and a single special(which is never granted permission for) certainly sounds like an additional benefit, especially when we go back to that old "never gaining a bonus attack" when the choice is permitted.

Clearly they meant for Clagar to have 2 Power fists and a power sword and with 2 Power Fists clearly grant 1 bonis attack, since he only has two hands and can only wield two weapons. However the rules could have been more clear.

I am not going to get into calgar.


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Grots R OP wrote:if it's not in your hand and it's not equipped it's not usable. two pk'z not an option so immovable object vs irresistable force not valid.

You wouldnt choose 2 because no benefit.

You choose one, stick w it till combat resolved.

Get bonus attack. +1

Buff not nerf.

Your american english confuses the brits and they will never understand wtf you are saying

buff don't nerf-makes people happy.

Whose my camp? Orks? yes.

I'm from Ohio, where you from Git?

"equipped" is to have on your person available for use, not holding in your hand. A Marine(USMC) in full combat kit is "equipped" with a Personal side arm, combat knife, M16, several grenades, and sometimes a few Claymores, this does not mean that said marine has every weapon in his hands; merely on his person.

Also both DR and myself are Americans(that is why we have the American flag next to our names)

I am from Cleveland, Ohio(PM if you can make it to the east side for a game, should you be in the area).

Kommissar Kel wrote:No they do not.

They tell you to choose which weapon to use in the 2 different SCCW rules.

Now I know what you are going to say: "but the paragraph under Fighting with 2 single handed weapons says the rules for the weapons "using"" To whit I will again reply: "no it does not, It says that "the models may be equipped with two weapons that they can use"."

you don't even look at the 2 different SCCW rules, unless you are equipped with, and using 2 different SCCW.

Remember they are equipped with 2 weapons they can use, and they never get the bonus for using 2 SCCW's. This says you have to have them equipped and be using them in CC.

The rules for 2 SCCW's make it clear you have to be using/wielding them for you not to gain the bonus attack. A Power sword that is magclamped onto your waist has no bearing on a combat in which you are using 2 Power Fists.

No, as I have said tie and agauin; you look at 2 different SCCWs when you are equipped with them, in order to see what weapon you use.

Having 2 different specials means you never get a bonus.

The 2 different Specials rule makes it very clear that you can only ever use 1; You cannot wield 2, so you cannot gain a bonus from wielding 2

You are getting caught up in the parenthetical discussing the wielding of "too many complex weapons" the sentence before it tells you they never gain a bonus for using 2 weapons. Not 2 specials, 2 weapons. If you are equipped with 2 different Specials, 1 extra of one of the 2 different specials and 2 normals, the only rule that gives you a choice in weapon used states you never gain a bonus for 2 of any weapons(Normal-normal, Normal-special, nor Special-special).

Look at that again in the context of the paragraph.

You never gain a bonus for using 2 weapons is listed iunder the Fighting with 2 SCCW's section, so only applies when you are actually fighting with 2 SCCW's

It does not apply when fighting with 2 of the same special weapon, or any of the others listed there.

Kommissar Kel wrote:The 2 different Specials rule makes it very clear that you can only ever use 1; You cannot wield 2, so you cannot gain a bonus from wielding 2.

You can wield two, in fact when you are wielding two you have to chose which one to attack with.

Again you are misapplying the "Use" in fighting with 2 weapons; the model is equipped with 2 weapons you may use with the following rules, does not mean that you may use any of the following rules for the 2 weapons you are using, it is look at what you are equipped with and the following rules are applied for what you use. Then there is only 1 of those following rules that allow for any choice in weapons used: 2 Different Specials.

The entirety of the 2 different Special CCWS is that you Never Use 2 different specials, you always must choose 1 of the 2 specials to use; and when you have that choice(by being equipped with 2 different specials) you may never gain the 2-weapon bonus attack for using 2 weapons(of any sort)

If you are applying "wield" to mean "equipped with"(since you admit here that you are only {i]using[/i] 1 to attack with), then my point remains valid: you are equipped with 2 and thus no matter what weapons you choose to use(in the fantasy that you can choose more than 1 weapon to use): you never gain a bonus attack.

P.S. Totally forgot to address the Context of the paragraph:

The context is exactly as stated:

-Have 2 different special CCWS
-Choose 1 weapon to use
-never gain any bonus attack for a second weapon

Second Edit: just fixed some unnecessary shouting to Italic-Bold instead of Bold-caps; no reason to get hostile.

I am not misapplying the "Use" in fighting with 2 weapons, you are.

You use the rules for the 2 weapon combination you are using.

Use means Wield. look at the fighting with 2SCCW's

Remember the () that says (Such is the penalty for wielding too many complex weapons)

That says that if you are not wielding 2 SCCW's then you do not follow those rules.

DeathReaper wrote:I am not misapplying the "Use" in fighting with 2 weapons, you are.

You use the rules for the 2 weapon combination you are using.

That is not what the rule says; read it again:

Fighting with two single-handed weapons wrote:Some models are equipped with two single-handed weapons they can use in close combat, with the rules given below for the different possible combinations.

Lets break down this sentence:
Q: What can you do?
A: Use 2 single-handed weapons that you are equipped with.
Q: How can you use them?
A: with the rules given below for different combinations.
Q: What are they?
A: 2 Single-handed weapons that the model is equipped with.

DeathReaper wrote:Use means Wield. look at the fighting with 2SCCW's

Remember the () that says (Such is the penalty for wielding too many complex weapons)

That says that if you are not wielding 2 SCCW's then you do not follow those rules.

That logic means that the 2 different CCW rules never ever come into play.

What you are saying is that the rules are saying this this:
When you are using/wielding 2 different SCCWs, you must choose 1 to use/Wield(editorial: well now you are not using/wielding 2 SCCWs now are you?), and will never gain the bonus attack for using(wielding) a second CCW(editorial: That you are not using/wielding to begin with anyways, since you had to choose only 1 to use/wield at the beginning of the sentence).

This is all wrong, the rules are based on what you are equipped with(since the rule itself says you choose which weapon to actually use, and you are only choosing to use 1 weapon).

Kommissar Kel wrote:
Lets break down this sentence:
Q: What can you do?
A: Use 2 single-handed weapons that you are equipped with.
Q: How can you use them?
A: with the rules given below for different combinations.
Q: What are they?
A: 2 Single-handed weapons that the model is equipped with.

Which 2 Single-handed weapons that the model is equipped with if you have 3 or more? The rules really do not cover it. The only real way to handle it is to pick 2 weapons and look up the rules for the two you are using.

But it is clearly something that will only be settled with an FaQ.

One that they will rule that you gain the bonus attack if you are using two of the same special weapon, even if you have a power sword as well. (Like Calgar).

DeathReaper wrote:

Kommissar Kel wrote:
Lets break down this sentence:
Q: What can you do?
A: Use 2 single-handed weapons that you are equipped with.
Q: How can you use them?
A: with the rules given below for different combinations.
Q: What are they?
A: 2 Single-handed weapons that the model is equipped with.

Which 2 Single-handed weapons that the model is equipped with if you have 3 or more? The rules really do not cover it. The only real way to handle it is to pick 2 weapons and look up the rules for the two you are using.

But it is clearly something that will only be settled with an FaQ.

One that they will rule that you gain the bonus attack if you are using two of the same special weapon, even if you have a power sword as well. (Like Calgar).

No, the only real way to handle it is to then look for any rule that allows for any choices: that rule is the 2 different Specials. The only time 2 different Specials rule breaks is with a DE Archon equipped with Husk Blade+Agonizer(or any combination of Special CCWS that they switch the Pistol and sword for)+Djinn blades Or a Haemonculous that chooses 2 SCCW for his Pistol +NCCW, and 1 or 2 arcane SCCWs.

When you have 3,4,9, or 10000 single-handed CCWS, you either still have the same possible rules(to be followed completely), or you have a situation outside of the rules and never gain any bonus attack(because the rules do not tell you that you do on page 42).

You are equipped with 2 Different Specials, therefore you follow the rules for being equipped with 2 different specials and never gain a bonus attack.

Also I have already stated I will not discuss Calgar; why do you keep bringing up Calgar?
But Fine I will make my remark on Calgar: Calgar has exactly 2 Special Close combat weapons(1 Power Sword, and 1 Gauntlets of Ultrimar), which are different; therefore he never receives the bonus as it stands.
I do however foresee the FAQ granting him the bonus attack from the gauntlets of Ultrimar as that 1 weapon is a Pair of Power fists(and GW likes to ignore the rules in the FAQs from time to time), the alternative is that they will incorporate the +1A into the rules for the Gauntlets(like NF-Falchions).

Simply being equipped with has no bearing, that is what you are not getting.

you have to be equipped with and use those weapons.

if you have 3 the only logical way to do it is to pick 2 weapons to use and reference the rules for that combination, since you can only fight with 2 single-handed CCW's.

No; being equipped with dictates manner of use: that is what the rules actually say and what you are not getting.


You are equipped with a set of weapons; here are the rules for using them in combination.

Only 1 Combination of weapons ever allow for a choice of use: 2 different Specials.

You cannot claim that the rules are for the Usage alone of the weapons because that leads to the following cyclical logic:

A model has a Power weapon and a poisoned weapon(only those 2 single-handed special close combat weapons); it is the assault phase and said model is engaged. We now see that he is fighting with 2 single handed weapons so goes to where it discusses that he is using 2 different special close combat weapons, that rule tells us that he must choose 1 weapon to use and never gains a 2 weapon bonus, so the choice is made for the power weapon, but now he is only using 1 weapon so the restriction for using 2 weapons is removed and he can gain a bonus attack, but then he will be using 2 different close combat weapons and therefore must follow the rules for using 2 different special close combat weapons, which tell him to choose to use only 1 weapon and never gains a 2 weapon bonus, so the choice is made for the power weapon, but now he is only using 1 weapon so the restriction for using 2 weapons is removed and he can gain a bonus attack, but then he will be using 2 different close combat weapons and therefore must follow the rules for using 2 different special close combat weapons, which tell him to choose to use only 1 weapon and never gains a 2 weapon bonus, so the choice is made for the power weapon, but now he is only using 1 weapon so the restriction for using 2 weapons is removed and he can gain a bonus attack, but then he will be using 2 different close combat weapons and therefore must follow the rules for using 2 different special close combat weapons, which tell him to choose to use only 1 weapon, and so on and so on and so on ad nauseum.

your cyclical logic is incorrect, I will point out why:

you said "so the choice is made for the power weapon, but now he is only using 1 weapon" he is still using (Wielding) both weapons, it is just that he has to pick one of the weapons to apply the bonuses and penalties to the attacks made this round.

Compared to a model having a Bolt Pistol, Lightning Claw, and Crozius Arcanum. This model has 3 sets of 2 weapons: the Bolt Pistol/Lightning Claw (Set 1), the Bolt Pistol/Crozius Arcanum (Set 2), and Lightning Claw/Crozius Arcanum(Set 3).

the most logical way to determine what we fight with, since we can only use 2 CCW's is to determine what set, 1, 2, or 3 we are using and look up the rules for the combination we are wielding.

Except you do not have permisson to make that choice before looking up. You cannot ever, ever, ever find that rule, no matter how many times we go through this rules query, because it doesnt exist.

DR, in that section GW seems to use, eqipped, useing, and weilding interchangeably. Bottom line to me, If you have, are equipped with, two different special weapons, you must choose one of them. And the act of choosing means you have to apply the rest of that rule, which says you never get the +1 attack for using two weapons. Really, it is that simple.

Kommissar Kel wrote:
You are equipped with 2 Different Specials, therefore you follow the rules for being equipped with 2 different specials and never gain a bonus attack.

Except that if you look to the rule book it also says: "Power fists, thunder hammers and lightning claws are exception to this. Only a second PF, TH or lightning claw can confer a bonus attack to a model equipped with one of these weapons."

Not sure exactly what the problem seems to be but I think it is pretty clear from the rules what you should do and I am with DeathReaper on this one

Also how do you explain the use of special weapons I can choose how many attacks I can put into each weapon?

Bacms wrote:

Kommissar Kel wrote:
You are equipped with 2 Different Specials, therefore you follow the rules for being equipped with 2 different specials and never gain a bonus attack.

Except that if you look to the rule book it also says: "Power fists, thunder hammers and lightning claws are exception to this. Only a second PF, TH or lightning claw can confer a bonus attack to a model equipped with one of these weapons."

You're reading "A normal and a special weapon", what you should be reading is the heading below that, "Two different special weapons".

I know what I am reading but as far as I know Power fists, thunder hammers and lightning claws are special weapons and so you gain a bonus attack if you are equipped/using with two of the same type.

"Can" confer, not "will always" confer

Having a 3rd special weapon will still deny you the bonus attack

nosferatu1001 wrote:"Can" confer, not "will always" confer

Having a 3rd special weapon will still deny you the bonus attack

That is the thing I don't get as far as I read the rules it says "Fighting with two single-handed weapons" now from where I see what applies, in this case I say both the normal and a special weapon and the two different special weapons, nowhere I can see it says you have to choose one over the other. S why do you choose to "use" (RAW) the two special weapons and not one special and one normal. It does say you need to choose which weapons you are going to use that turn and it seems pretty clear you have two hands and you can use one weapon in each hand or a two handed weapons even if you carry more.

Where is the rule allowing you to choose which weapon you use?

The ONLY time you are allowed to choose WHICH special weapon you use is in the 2 special weapons section.

nosferatu1001 wrote:Where is the rule allowing you to choose which weapon you use?

The ONLY time you are allowed to choose WHICH special weapon you use is in the 2 special weapons section.

Yes but basically because it is the only time it would matter right? So if I chose ONE doesn't it mean I can't use both at the same time but can use a different one which is available if I have three?

Huh?

No, my point is that you are only given permission to use WHICH special weapon you use through the "fighting with 2 special weapons" section

If you read any other section you have already made a choice - to not "use" a special weapon - when you have no rule allowing this to occur.

nosferatu1001 wrote:Huh?

No, my point is that you are only given permission to use WHICH special weapon you use through the "fighting with 2 special weapons" section

If you read any other section you have already made a choice - to not "use" a special weapon - when you have no rule allowing this to occur.

Again you are deliberating choosing to ignore the option to fight with one normal and one special. Both apply when you have three weapons right?

No, I am not ignoring it.

You have 3 weapons, 2 different special and one normal. Find a RULE allowing you to CHOOSE to use the normal and special

You will not be able to find it, meaning the only time you can choose a weapon to use is under 2 specials, meaning you never get the bonus attack

Essentially: you are trying to choose to use a combination of weapons but have no permission to choose that combination in the first place. The whole game is based on permission, which you lack.

I'm assuming the scorpion claw (may be used both as a power fist and shuriken catapult in the same turn) is a rule that deals with a previous edition than?

RAW: "Some models are equipped with two single-handed weapons they can use in close, with the rules given below for the DIFFERENT POSSIBLE COMBINATIONS"
If you have three weapons I can see three different combinations. But I see what you mean so I will stop arguing because otherwise I can also the "two different special weapons" only apply if you are equipped with two weapons so we have no rules for these cases. At least now I understand why we need a FAQ.
Thank you very much for the explanation.

Bruno

DeathReaper wrote:your cyclical logic is incorrect, I will point out why:

you said "so the choice is made for the power weapon, but now he is only using 1 weapon" he is still using (Wielding) both weapons, it is just that he has to pick one of the weapons to apply the bonuses and penalties to the attacks made this round.

Compared to a model having a Bolt Pistol, Lightning Claw, and Crozius Arcanum. This model has 3 sets of 2 weapons: the Bolt Pistol/Lightning Claw (Set 1), the Bolt Pistol/Crozius Arcanum (Set 2), and Lightning Claw/Crozius Arcanum(Set 3).

the most logical way to determine what we fight with, since we can only use 2 CCW's is to determine what set, 1, 2, or 3 we are using and look up the rules for the combination we are wielding.

My point in the cyclical logic is that you are declaring the combinations as the Combinations for Use, and not Equipped; is you are using 2 different and that rule for Using 2 different then says to choose to use 1 then you are no longer Using 2 different, you are Using 1.

You must read it as: "If you are equipped with 2 different, you must Choose to use 1"; which is what the first paragraph in the rules says to begin with: You are Equipped with weapons, here are the combinations of use.

Bacms: Model A is equipped with a Normal and a Special, Model B is equipped with 2 Normals, model c is equipped with 2 of the same special, Model D is equipped with 2 different Specials.
Look every model above has a "DIFFERENT POSSIBLE COMBINATION"
And yes, if you have a model with 3 weapons you do have different Possible Combinations, so you look at what weapons the model has and then determine what rules you use based therein, Here is how that works:

Model A has a Bolt Pistol, Close combat weapon and a Power Sword. His possible Combinations are: 2 normals, or 2 sets of a normal and a Special. We have no rules that dictate choice of use so we read the entries. Both provide a bonus attack. A normal and a special states all attacks are made with the Special(power sword), therefore Model A will always use a Power sword.

Model B has a Bolt Pistol, Close combat weapon and a Power Fist. His possible Combinations are: 2 normals, or 2 sets of a normal and a Special. We have no rules that dictate choice of use so we read the entries. Only 2 normals provide a bonus attack, the Power fist denies the bonus attack. A normal and a special states all attacks are made with the Specail(power fist), therefore Model A will always use a Power sword.

Model C has a Pair of lightning claws and a Thunder hammer. His possible combinations are: 2 of the same Speial and 2 sets of 2 different Specials. We have a rule that dictates choice of Use: the 2 different Specials. Therefore as we only have 1 rule for the equipped weapons combinations that dictates choice we follow it's rules: you only use 1 weapon, ad never gain a bonus attack.\

Happyjew: The Shuriken Catapult is a ranged weapon, so has no bearing on the Power fist attacks. Also as an assault weapon you can always fire it in the shooting phase then assault with your CCWS in the assault phase(this is exactly how pistols work: shoot them in the SHooting and bash with them in the assault, usually to add a bonus attack as the second CCW)

Like I said, I'm assuming that the wording has to do with a rule from an older edition, but I wasn't sure and trying to find out.

Just a reminder as GW so often likes to add.

There are only 2 instances of Ranged/CCweapons not being able to be used as both that I can think of since I started playing in 3rd:

Burnas, which specify they are only ever CCWs if they did not fire in the previous shooting phase.

and

Bolters on models with true-grit in 3rd: back then you could shoot with rapid fire weapons(1 shot) and then assault and true-grit made the Bolter a Pistol for CC, providing you did not shoot the bolter before assaulting.

Right this is getting silly

Tri wrote:There are three reading, one i agree with and one i don't ... but here they are with the reasons why and why not ... Make your own mind up ... or don't but this is what this thread amounts to.

1) If you have 3+ close combat weapons and 2 are different special weapons then as per fighting with two different special weapons you never get the bonus attack.
(why not?) because you are not using two weapons, you are using all of them. So how can you read a subsection of a rule that requires two weapons?

2) If you have 3+ close combat weapons you must pick two or you can select no of the options on page 42 (as there are only rules for fighting with 1 or 2 weapons). Pick those weapons you wish to use and look up the effect.
(Why not?) because you are wielding (meaning having) two different special weapons so you can never get the bonus attack for wielding two weapons.

and (not that any one ever bothers with this ... but i do want to cover all the bases)
3) There are no rules for a model with 3+ weapons so such models can never use any of the rules on page 42 and attacks without any bonuses.
(why not?) because no one in there right mind would think that a model with a weapon wouldn't use it just because they had too many.

Whichever way you go know that there are no rule backing you 100% any one saying so is lying. This isn't magic ... we do not have a complete rule set

edits so it looks good

Kommissar Kel wrote:
Model C has a Pair of lightning claws and a Thunder hammer. His possible combinations are: 2 of the same Speial and 2 sets of 2 different Specials. We have a rule that dictates choice of Use: the 2 different Specials. Therefore as we only have 1 rule for the equipped weapons combinations that dictates choice we follow it's rules: you only use 1 weapon, ad never gain a bonus attack.

This is not correct.

We know we can only use 2 weapons in CC. (P.37)

Which two weapons needs to be decided if we are equipped with 3 or more weapons.

In the above situation if you use the 2 LC's you get the bonus attack because the Thunderhammer is not being used, and can not be used if you are using the 2 LC's, even though it is equipped.

DeathReaper wrote:

Kommissar Kel wrote:
Model C has a Pair of lightning claws and a Thunder hammer. His possible combinations are: 2 of the same Speial and 2 sets of 2 different Specials. We have a rule that dictates choice of Use: the 2 different Specials. Therefore as we only have 1 rule for the equipped weapons combinations that dictates choice we follow it's rules: you only use 1 weapon, ad never gain a bonus attack.

This is not correct.

We know we can only use 2 weapons in CC. (P.37)

Which two weapons needs to be decided if we are equipped with 3 or more weapons.

In the above situation if you use the 2 LC's you get the bonus attack because the Thunderhammer is not being used, and can not be used if you are using the 2 LC's, even though it is equipped.

This is incorrect We know we can only use 1 weapon in close combat when we are equipped with 2 different specials.

Also you will note that that entire section you posted from was discussing equipped with and which weapon/weapons get used; not using all three(and if you were to actually read the quote that exact situation is what i am talking about in it; the model is equipped with 3 weapons, 1 weapon must be chosen for use because 1 rule for combinations of weapons allows for choice out of the 2 different combinations of 2 weapons that are available based on equipment). In this situation the only rule that allows you any choice of weapon is 2 different Specials, and it specifically denies 2-weapon bonus, if you choose to use the 1 lightning claw(of the pair), you cannot gain a bonus, if you choose to use the Thunder hammer, you cannot gain a bonus.

Your failure to understand the entire section of my last post; and instead trying to shoe-horn in the exact same thing you are advocating out of being equipped with 3+ single handed close combat weapons kind of speaks volumes to you not understanding how the "fighint with 2 single handed close combat weapons" section of page 42.

Also Page 37 does not say that you cannot use more than 2 weapons, it says you gain no additional benefit; that is not the same as not using more than 2.

Not when we are simply equipped with 2 specials, they have to be wielding 2 specials to have to chose one weapon's bonuses and penalties.

they are still using 2 SCCW's since the rest of the text says "But they never get the bonus attack for using two weapons"

so they never get the bonus attack for using "Two different special weapons"

They are still wielding 2 different SCCW's

What happens when a SM honor guard squad model buys a Relic blade?

The model will now have a Power Weapon, Bolt Pistol, and Relic Blade.

How do we determine what weapons he uses in CC?

The Relic Blade is 2 handed.

Again your reading fails.

They can never use 2 different specials; it simply cannot be done as you choose 1 Special weapon to use.

You only have 1 combination of equipped weapons that ever allows any choice in which weapon to be used; that same combination rule that allows a choice denies the bonus no matter which weapon(again singular) is used.

What happens when a SM Honour guard takes a relic blade?
Simple, they may as well use it since they have 3 Single handed Close combat weapons, 2 are different special and the Relic blade itself also denies the bonus attack.

You are claiming the Relic blade to be 2-handed, but it is not, it is a power weapon that has a set Strength for attacks(this is a case of the weapon having it's own Strength, and not adding to the S characteristic of the model equipped, unlike frost blades and Powerfists) and specifically denies the bonus attack itself when used.

The relic Blade is not 2 handed, it is single-handed.

Look no ones bring anything new to this ... you ether believe that you don't get a bonus attack for wield 2 different special weapons or you believe you must pick two weapons to use and check the list and get what ever you've chosen.

Once and for all we do not have rules for what to do with three weapons. We also have rules for riffle butts as two handed weapons ... which begs the question can you select a riffle butt over a powerfist (which has also been debated).

Kommissar Kel wrote:Again your reading fails.

They can never use 2 different specials; it simply cannot be done as you choose 1 Special weapon to use.

Actually, if you read the section: 2 different SCCW's you will see that they are in fact using/wielding both weapons (Such is the penalty for wielding too many complex weapons).

Kommissar Kel wrote:You only have 1 combination of equipped weapons that ever allows any choice in which weapon to be used; that same combination rule that allows a choice denies the bonus no matter which weapon(again singular) is used.

Remember its not just equipped, its equipped and using. "Some models are equipped with two-single handed weapons they can use in close combat."
That says they can use two-single handed weapons in close combat (That establishes that they can, and do, use 2 weapons in CC, and it lists the different combinations below). So you are in fact using two SCCW's even though you are only getting the bonuses of one of them.

Kommissar Kel wrote:What happens when a SM Honour guard takes a relic blade?
Simple, they may as well use it since they have 3 Single handed Close combat weapons, 2 are different special and the Relic blade itself also denies the bonus attack.

Not so simple, the relic blade denies the bonus attack if you use the relic blade to attack with.

If you use the power weapon and bolt pistol you will gain the extra attack as normal.

Kommissar Kel wrote:You are claiming the Relic blade to be 2-handed, but it is not, it is a power weapon that has a set Strength for attacks(this is a case of the weapon having it's own Strength, and not adding to the S characteristic of the model equipped, unlike frost blades and Powerfists) and specifically denies the bonus attack itself when used.

The relic Blade is not 2 handed, it is single-handed.

The relic blade is most definitely 2 handed. P.99 SM codex, read the entry again. "Relic Blades are two-handed swords or axes..."

Bacms wrote:

nosferatu1001 wrote:Huh?

No, my point is that you are only given permission to use WHICH special weapon you use through the "fighting with 2 special weapons" section

If you read any other section you have already made a choice - to not "use" a special weapon - when you have no rule allowing this to occur.

Again you are deliberating choosing to ignore the option to fight with one normal and one special. Both apply when you have three weapons right?

No, they don't You have one rule allowing it and one rule disallowing it. Guess which one wins. The one that says NEVER. Just like a deep striking unit with Fleet that deep strikes in and then runs in the shooting phase. it has one rule (Fleet) that says it can assault after running. But it has another rule that says it cannot assault after DSing. Which one wins. That's right, no assault. So here we have one rule that says you can have +1 attack if you have a specail and regular close combat (other than the excepted weapons) and another rule that says if you have two DIFFERENT special weapons then you NEVER get +1 attack. OK, which one wins. that's right. Never.

And then you add in that the only way to get to 'using' a special and a regular ccw when equipped with two special and a ccw is to CHOOSE one of the specials to use, and that is only allowed under the two different special weapons rule, well, all i can come up with is no +1 attack. Or are you saying taht we only use part of the rule (the choosing part) and ignore the restrictions that the act of choosing places upon us? Man, I've got a lot of rules I'd like to do that with................

don_mondo wrote:No, they don't You have one rule allowing it and one rule disallowing it. Guess which one wins.

... Yes except that rule is part of another rule that requires the model to be using Two weapons ... Look we've been over this ether the model can pick two weapon and then look at the list none of the rules on that page can be used. The model has more then three weapon and there are only rules for a model using two.

The way I see it, Grotsnik has a slugga, 'urty syringe and a power klaw.
At the start of each combat, before any blows are struck, Grotsnik must choose between one of his SCCW to use. These are either the klaw or the syringe.

If he uses the 'urty syringe, he is fighting with a 'urty syringe and a slugga. This is a poisoned weapon and a CCW. Fighting with a CCW and a poisoned weapon gives you +1 A.

If he picks the klaw, then he fights with the Klaw and slugga. You never get an additional attack with a Klaw, unless you have two klaws.

Same deal with Calgar. He either uses the 2 fists or the sword. 2 fists for +1 A at I 1 S 8 or the sword to aattack at his usual I S 4

Except, as has been pointed out, you have no rule allowing you to make that choice.

The ONLY place you get to choose which special CCW you are using also states you NEVER get the attack

I also don't see any rule disallowing it either. The only rules I see are you never get the benefits of 2 SCCW at the same time, power fists only get +1 A if they're wielding 2 powerfists (Calgar) and special weapons such as poisoned, power and force weapons can claim +1 A when being wielded with a normal CCW.

nosferatu1001 wrote:Except, as has been pointed out, you have no rule allowing you to make that choice.

The ONLY place you get to choose which special CCW you are using also states you NEVER get the attack

That only applies if you are wielding two of the same special weapon. you never get the bonus attack for using/wielding 2 SCCW's

we have to look at it logically because they do not tell us how a model with 3 or more weapons behaves in Close Combat.

So Logically we can discern that a model only uses up to 2 weapons in CC as per the section about fighting with 2 single-handed weapons, and the section that says more that two weapons give no additional benefit.

So either a model with 3 or more weapons can not attack, or we have to chose 2 weapons to fight with and look up the rules for the weapon combination we are using.

It is that simple.

Or, you take view that the only place where you get to choose which SCCW you are using also tells you that you NEVER gain the bonus attack

That works fine for models equipped with and using 2 SCCW's, But there are no rules for models with 3 or more weapons.

So either:

those models can not attack.
Or
We have to chose a combination of weapons it wield in CC and use the rules for what we are wielding.

OR

You go to the 2 different CCW section and read that for any number of CCW

See, your false dichotomy is false!

Since youre making up rules anyway, making one where you a) gain the least advantage and b) follow the NEVER and c) follow the spirit makes the most sense, no?

Making up rules?

It establishes we can only use 2 weapons in CC.

If we have 3 or more, we have no choice but to chose a combination of weapons it wield in CC and use the rules for what we are wielding.

Since "Some models are equipped with two-single handed weapons they can use in close combat." we have to be equipped with and using the weapons in CC, this establishes that, then we look up what combo we are using.

....and that is the part you are making up

there are no rules allowing you to choose a combination PRIOR to reading p42. None. Absolutely nothing whatsoever

So, as pointed out - your false dichotomy is false.

It is implied, since we can not fight with more than 2 CCW's, we must have to choose 2 out of the 3 or more to fight with, since we can only fight with 2 Single-handed weapons.

What happens when a SM honor guard squad model buys a Relic blade?

The model will now have a Power Weapon, Bolt Pistol, and Relic Blade.

How do we determine what weapons he uses in CC?

The Relic Blade is 2 handed.

You've been corrected on this more than once, the relic blade is NOT 2 handed. Read again.

"Implied" == "there are no rules covering this" - understand now?

"Relic blades are two-handed swords or axes..." P.99 SM Codex.

They are in fact 2 handed.

Now what happens when a SM honor guard squad model buys a Relic blade?

The model will now have a Power Weapon, Bolt Pistol, and Relic Blade.

How do we determine what weapons he uses in CC?

So, fluff is rules now?

P99 states, in the rules, that they are a power weapon and you cannot gain the bonus for 2CCW. Try again.
How do you determine? You use the making up rules that requires the least advantage as possible, which is the 2 different special CCW of never gaining an additional attack.

Or, your way, which also has no basis in the rules (just an "implied" one, so that would still be none) and gains an advantage heavily indicated you should NEVER get.

Given you will never accept you are making up rules, whats the point in you posting.

You

Are

Making

Up

Rules

That quote is listed under the Relic Blade entry. It clearly details that relic blades are two handed.
that quote is from the rules for relic blades.

I am not making up rules. they tell us we are only allowed to fight with 2 CCW's

one has to then pick 2 out of the 3 or more weapons one has, to follow the rules. This is the only way to do it, since you are not allowed to fight with more than 2 CCW's

Lets go with something else then, since you will not answer my question.

How do we determine what weapons to use in CC for a Plague marine?

he has:
Bolt Pistol, Close Combat weapon, Bolter (2 handed rifle butt)

DeathReaper wrote:
Bolt Pistol, Close Combat weapon, Bolter (2 handed rifle butt)

Bolters are not CC weapons. That is an abstraction to describe how models with no CC weapons attack at all. Wearing gloves and boots does not mean you are equipped with 4 CCWs either.

If you have 2+ SpecialCCWs at any time, then you lose all ability to ever gain a bonus attack regardless which weapons you use (even if you could prove there are rules for having 3+ CCW which there are not)

A model with 2+ SpecialCCW always has 2 Special CCWs so that section of rules is always applicable, no bonus attack ever even if he has 7 regular CCWs.

A rifle butt is a close combat weapon.

It is even listed as an example of a two-handed close combat weapon on page 42. (Such as a rifle's butt)

nkelsch wrote:A model with 2+ SpecialCCW always has 2 Special CCWs so that section of rules is always applicable, no bonus attack ever even if he has 7 regular CCWs.

It always applies if they are wielding 'two different close combat weapons' remember (such is the penalty for wielding too many complex weapons.)

DeathReaper wrote:A rifle butt is a close combat weapon.

It is even listed as an example of a two-handed close combat weapon on page 42. (Such as a rifle's butt)

nkelsch wrote:A model with 2+ SpecialCCW always has 2 Special CCWs so that section of rules is always applicable, no bonus attack ever even if he has 7 regular CCWs.

It always applies if they are wielding 'two different close combat weapons' remember (such is the penalty for wielding too many complex weapons.)

No it doesn't... It is an abstraction and the model gains no bonus. You do not have 'rifle butt' on the wargear profile and bolters are not classified as a CCW simply because you believe it is probably a rifle butt.

Nothing is a CCW unless it is an explicit piece of wargear saying it is. If you have no weapons at all, like a shoota boy who only has a shoota, it is assumed he is capable of attacking even though he is not explicitly equipped with a CCW.

DR - no, it really isnt a rifle butt. Please, show me how a gryojet stabilised rocket is a "rifle", PLEASE. Bolter /= Rifle Butt.

That bit you quoted from p99 is fluff. Surely you know that, right? If it REALLY were ACTUAL rules, then the following would be superfluous - right?

the actual rules from p99 Codex SM wrote:Due to its size and weight, a model wielding a relic blade cannot get an extra attack for an additional close combat weapon

Gee, I guess its the SIZE and WEIGHT that means you cannot gain a bonus attack - nothing else. See, the actual RULE says so! There is also the fact that a Relic Blade is defined as a power weapon, and we know that power weapons are single handed - rulebook FAQ. So, thats 2 reasons you're wrong. I'd stop if I were you....

I answered your question - you determine it the same way, you make rules up. So, you make rules up that follow the least advantageous route
Since you wont admit YOUR direction requires making up rules, and you apparently never will - why do you bother?

nosferatu1001 wrote: So, you make rules up that follow the least advantageous route

... Yet it is advantageous to the other play when these characters were made as you clearly said it didn't matter they would get the bonus attack any way. It is only under 5th rules that problems come up ... not because the rule are against them merely they are not covered.

If you use the rules on page 41-42 and assume you can pick a sub set to use then it all works, as intended.

"as intended"
Prove it.

Quite a lot of things changed, deliberately so, between 4th and 5th. Do you have proof that they intended Calgar to have the bonus attack? Or, as posited, they just gave him the weapons the model actually shows?

nosferatu1001 wrote:"as intended"
Prove it.

Quite a lot of things changed, deliberately so, between 4th and 5th. Do you have proof that they intended Calgar to have the bonus attack? Or, as posited, they just gave him the weapons the model actually shows?

Yes a lot of things did change ... however absence is not a change. At most it is an oversight. He has two power-fist's he gets an extra attack if he uses them if he chooses to use the sword he cannot get an extra attack as he has no wargear that he can combine it with to gain an extra attack. In fact the only change is that ... you cannot use different special weapons as an extra weapon.

Absence can be a change. As in, they omitted the last man standing rules - is that not a change? They decided that having 2 different special weapons means you NEVER gain the 2 CCW bonus.

You still have to make up rules (you are allowed to choose a combination of weapons BEFORE you read page 42), and your method results in an advantage that is *strongly* hinted you should NEVER gain.

nosferatu1001 wrote:Absence can be a change. As in, they omitted the last man standing rules - is that not a change? They decided that having 2 different special weapons means you NEVER gain the 2 CCW bonus.

You still have to make up rules (you are allowed to choose a combination of weapons BEFORE you read page 42), and your method results in an advantage that is *strongly* hinted you should NEVER gain.

I see no hints i only see that you cannot get a bonus attack if you use a none match pair of special weapons.

So, by omission, you do agree that an omission is also a change, yes? I assume as much - if you dont agree, then acknowledge and respond.

"such is the penalty for wielding too many complex weapons"

The "NEVER" is a strong hint, no? As is the fluff explanation to go with it.

Throughout this whole page they use "use", "wield" and "equipped with" interchangeably, so you cannot cling to "wield" as solely being "use"

Edit: can you also finally admit you must make up rules in order to do what you propose? Be adult about this, and admit that both positions require us to make up rules

nosferatu1001 wrote:So, by omission, you do agree that an omission is also a change, yes? I assume as much - if you dont agree, then acknowledge and respond.

"such is the penalty for wielding too many complex weapons"

The "NEVER" is a strong hint, no? As is the fluff explanation to go with it.

Throughout this whole page they use "use", "wield" and "equipped with" interchangeably, so you cannot cling to "wield" as solely being "use"

Edit: can you also finally admit you must make up rules in order to do what you propose? Be adult about this, and admit that both positions require us to make up rules

If a model is using two different special weapons it never gets a bonus attack for using two weapons =/= a model carrying two different special weapons. The rules ask you to look up two weapons that you are using ... If you disagree then what happens to a model with 2 power weapons and a close combat weapon? does this mode gain 2 bonus attack because it fulfills two of the options? This is what you are saying.

"Throughout this whole page they use "use", "wield" and "equipped with" interchangeably, so you cannot cling to "wield" as solely being "use""

Can you please, for once, admit that you are making up rules?

If not - please show me the RULE allowing you to pick your combination. Not playing aany mroe silly hypotheticals with you until you do exactly that. Neither you nor DR have had the guts to admit that you need to make rules up, and continuing to ignore this point and presumably trying to claim some "high ground" because of it just wont fly any longer.

I thought Calgar had 2 SCCW: a power sword and the gauntlets. Or do the gauntlets count as 2 CCW?

Happyjew wrote:I thought Calgar had 2 SCCW: a power sword and the gauntlets. Or do the gauntlets count as 2 CCW?

The Gauntlets are a "pair of power fists", which is what's messing up stuff.

AlmightyWalrus wrote:

Happyjew wrote:I thought Calgar had 2 SCCW: a power sword and the gauntlets. Or do the gauntlets count as 2 CCW?

The Gauntlets are a "pair of power fists", which is what's messing up stuff.

Calgar only has 2 Special CCW; which Happyjew is correct about.

And yes, walrus, you are correct that the Gauntlets are a "pair of powerfists", as their single weapon; this is why I stated earlier that if GW ever decided to actually do an FAQ on Calgar I could see them ruling that Calgar gets the bonus attack when he uses the 1 special weapon "Gauntlets of Ultramar", which would neither prove, nor disprove the 3 weapon issue(since Calgar only actually has 2 weapons, it is just that 1 weapons is a pair or power fists, much like the hurricane bolter is 3 twin-linked boltguns, but is 1 weapon).

With Calgar it really is a "flip a coin/roll off pre-game" situation; while Eldrad is an "Argue until someone decides "screw it, lets Flip a Coin/roll off"" situation(Eldrad actually having 3 weapons and 2 of them are different specials).

TBH, Im not a rule buff. But the underlying issue with Grotsnik the way I see it is...

He cant sue 2 different special weapons, fair enough. So he uses the only other gear available to him. Normal + Special.

I might be wrong, but if both people agree on this before they begin the game and the rule applies to all units on the board that are in the same situation, is this a problem? Likewise if both players agree not to allow it.

I don't have to fire all 3 weapons on my vehicle, I can choose which ones to fire.
When I am only allowed to use one weapon on a vehicle which has more... I have to choose which weapon to fire.

Unless im mistaken in which case I apologies, but the important thing is your opponent agrees with you on the rule before the game. What's GW stance of this at any official tournaments/local game shops? Would be interested to know.

Beatonator wrote:I might be wrong, but if both people agree on this before they begin the game and the rule applies to all units on the board that are in the same situation, is this a problem? Likewise if both players agree not to allow it.

This is the best way to handle any model with 3+ weapons with at least 2 different specials until we get an FAQ; but both sides of the discussion have the tools to make an argument given by this thread, and the 100+ other threads on this topic.

nosferatu1001 wrote:Throughout this whole page they use "use", "wield" and "equipped with" interchangeably, so you cannot cling to "wield" as solely being "use"

They use "use" and "wield" interchangeably, but not "equipped with"

Do you really think that a relic blade is not a two handed weapon?

It is explicitly described as such. If GW got around to FaQing it, they would clearly state that it is, in fact, a two handed weapon.

Why can you not accept this?

I'm confused, what does a relic blade being a 2-handed weapon or not have to do with the OP's question?

DR - in fluff it is stated to be a sword handed sword

In actual RULES it is stated to be a power weapon (therefore 1 handed) which because of its SIZE and WEIGHT means you never gain the bonus for 2 ccw; that entire section would be superfluous if what you claim to be rules were actually rules.

Good job they arent, then. In 2 RULES it is 1 handed. Thats it.

Can you please admit that you need to make up rules? I have done. Any time you feel like it.

I am having trouble finding the rule which says you may only ever choose to attack with 2 weapons and that you may choose to avoid using SCCW if you have 3+ weapons.

Those rules don't exist.

I do see rules that show what happens if you have regular CCW, 1 SCCW and 1 CCW and 2 SCCW.

Set 1: 0-1000 regular CCWs.
Set 2: 1 SCCW and 1-1000 CCWs.
Set 3: 2-1000 SCCW and 0-1000 CCWs

Every combination of weapons falls into one of those 3 categories. Nothing says you are limited to 2 weapons and you may choose those two weapons before resolving attacks.

Having 2 SCCW and 1 CCW weapon falls under the 3rd category because you have 2 SCCW. Having 3SCCW still means you have 2SCCW regardless of having any number of regular CCW.

I also can't find this 'rifle butt' being listen in any codex as a CCW. All I see is rules being made up.

If you have a character with 2SCCW you may never benefit from additional CCWs such is the penalty described in the rules. Nothing exempts you for having 3 weapons.

nkelsch, the rules for using rifle butts are an example on the weapons page.

There is no rule that force a model to use everything ... so If i pick a combination that gives me an extra attack ... that's what I'm getting.
...and really Nos it doesn't matter if you think you are right ... or if I think I'm right ... no rules and a disagreement means we dice off, agree, or don't play.

So, you still cant agree that there are no rules allowing you to do what you keep on insisting you can do?

Sheesh. Are you a politician?

I've already given EXACTLY how I would play earlier in this thread, although I guess you missed it.

Tri wrote:nkelsch, the rules for using rifle butts are an example on the weapons page.

Show me the model who has a 'rifle butt' as a weapon on his profile and then the weapon description in the codex that say 'rifle butt' is a CCW' and I will believe you. Until then, what is in the rulebook is an abstraction. Technically 'shoota boyz' have no CC weapons on their profile but are obviously allowed to attack in CC because there is an assumption a model with 0 CCWs may attack. It does not give him a CC weapon which he can then combine withother weapons.

There is no rule that force a model to use everything ... so If i pick a combination that gives me an extra attack ... that's what I'm getting.
...and really Nos it doesn't matter if you think you are right ... or if I think I'm right ... no rules and a disagreement means we dice off, agree, or don't play.

There is no rule allowing you to 'choose two'. The rules are permissive. Every combination can fit into one of the 3 categories. You are making up rules... Nothing allows you to choose two and ignore the penalties for having two SCCW. If you have 2 SCCWs then you can never get a bonus attack ever. That is a rule and is in the rule book. If you make up a rule and want to dice off, then I am making up rules all my boyz have STR 10 and 2D6 penetration on tanks. It is not written anywhere but you can't say it is not a rule and if we dice off and I win, it is legal.

A model with 2SCCW and 1 CCW or 3 SCCW still has 2 different SCCW and never gains a bonus attack.

nosferatu1001 wrote:DR - in fluff it is stated to be a two handed sword.

That is not fluff, that is in the rules section for Relic Blades and it says they are two handed.

Relic blades are two-handed(Rules) swords or axes sheathed in an armor-sundering power field...<Snip>...to wield a relic blade.(Fluff) A relic blade counts as a power weapon.(Rules) whose hits are resolved at Strength 6.(Rules) Due to its size and weight,(Fluff) a model wielding a relic blade cannot get an extra attack for an additional close combat weapon.(Rules)

Notice how you have to be wielding the relic blade to be denied the attack.

Happyjew wrote:I'm confused, what does a relic blade being a 2-handed weapon or not have to do with the OP's question?

We are trying to determine how to deal with a model with 3 or more weapons.

Thus the question:

what happens when a SM honor guard squad model buys a Relic blade?

The model will now have a Power Weapon, Bolt Pistol, and Relic Blade(which I have shown to be 2 handed).

How do we determine what weapons he uses in CC?

nkelsch wrote:Nothing allows you to choose two and ignore the penalties for having two SCCW.

There are no penalties for having two SCCW, there are penalties for using/wielding two SCCW.

DR - seriously, youre still trying this?

1st paragraph: ENTIRELY FLUFF
2nd paragraph: ENTIRELY RULES

Notice how it is the SIZE and WEIGHT that denies you the additional attack? Notice that in the RULES section it isnt described as 2 handed, which would make it ENTIRELY unnecessary to mention that you dont get a bonus attack? Any potential for you to actually acknowledge you've made a mistake, ever?

Sigh.

So, ready to admit you need to make up rules yet? Possibly? Maybe?

DeathReaper wrote:

nkelsch wrote:Nothing allows you to choose two and ignore the penalties for having two SCCW.

There are no penalties for having two SCCW, there are penalties for using/wielding two SCCW.

You are making up rules. There is no distinction and nothing that says you may only 'use/wield' 2 CCW at a time and to choose two before attacking.

If you have 2 different SCCW for any reason, the rules say you may never gain a bonus attack. You never have the option to combine each SCCW with a third normal CCW for a bonus attack. The rules are permissive and no rules exist which allow this to happen.

nosferatu1001 wrote:DR - seriously, youre still trying this?

1st paragraph: ENTIRELY FLUFF
2nd paragraph: ENTIRELY RULES

Notice how it is the SIZE and WEIGHT that denies you the additional attack? Notice that in the RULES section it isnt described as 2 handed, which would make it ENTIRELY unnecessary to mention that you dont get a bonus attack? Any potential for you to actually acknowledge you've made a mistake, ever?

Sigh.

So, ready to admit you need to make up rules yet? Possibly? Maybe?

It is listed as a two handed weapon, how is that making up rules?

The rules for Relic blades are on page 99 of the SM codex. there are some fluff parts there as I have shown, but mentioning that relic blades are two handed is not a part of the fluff. it is actually telling us that relic blades are two handed. I am not sure how you are missing that.

nkelsch wrote:You are making up rules. There is no distinction and nothing that says you may only 'use/wield' 2 CCW at a time and to choose two before attacking. If you have 2 different SCCW for any reason, the rules say you may never gain a bonus attack.

If you have 2 different SCCW that you are wielding (Such is the penalty for wielding too many complex weapons)
There are actually rules that say you only use 2 CCW's, as detailed on Page 42 'Fighting with 2 single-handed weapons" section.

Youre making up rules about being able to choose a subset of weapons before hitting p42. Same as you have been in every thread

It isnt listed as a 2 handed weapon in the rules text. You know, the second paragraph where it actually lists the rules. The bit where it ISNT a 2 handed weapon - it IS in fact a one handed weapon, as it is a power weapon.

The second paragraph is mostly rules, but there is a bit of fluff there as well.

The whole section details the Relic Blade rules.

We know we only use two weapons in CC.

If we have three or more we must chose only two weapons, since it tells us we can only fight with two weapons, to actually fight with.

Actually the first section is entirely fluff. We know it is a one handed weapon as it is a power weapon.

BZZZT, rules needed.

Please provide them

Or, you know, admit you are having to make up an allowance. I freely admit you need to make up rules - its just mine also happen to follow the extreme hint given in the BRB about models with 2 different SCCW.

nosferatu1001 wrote:Actually the first section is entirely fluff.

And you know this how?

The first section has rules detailing that the relic blade is a 2H, then gives some fluff.

The second has mostly rules, with a bit of fluff thrown in as well.

I gave the rules quote, I can not help it if you choose to ignore it.

No, it has a fluff description of a sword / axe taking two hands.

It then gives you the real rules, which is that it is a power weapon. This makes it one handed

So, going to admit you need to make up rules in order to choose which 2 weapons? At any point?

Not making up any rules, it clearly states in the Relic blade rules, that they are two handed, I am not sure why you think that is fluff.

Because of the whole sentence, mainly.

Done arguing with you, as you cant even admit when you're making rules up - you have no rule allowing you to choose which 2. Nothing. Admit it or stop posting.

It does not explicitly state you need to pick two weapons to fight with. But taht it because it is a permissive ruleset.

They tell us we can only fight with 2 weapons if we are equipped with 2 weapons.

That restriction says out of all our weapons, we must choose two, to fight with.

Say where it allows you to pick two weapons, please

For once, provide this rule. No "implies" this, no "we have to do..." that, just he actual rule that allows you to choose a subset of your weapons before you hit page 42

Anything.

Page 42. Under fighting with 2 single-handed weapons.

That is what allows you to chose two, and only two single-handed weapons to wield.

That gives us the restriction of fighting with only two single-handed weapons.

We know from that, we can not fight with more than single-handed weapons.

So if we have more than two we have to chose single-handed weapons to fulfill one of the different possible combinations.

we are only allowed to wield two single-handed weapons, as per P.42

So regarding Relic Blades (and this really needs a new thread) you have a ccw (Pistol), SCCW (Power Weapon) ans SCCW (Relic Blade). 2 SCCW, no bonus attack. Can we PLEASE get back to the OPs original question?

Edit: NM about the new thread bit, I just found it.

"Page 42. Under fighting with 2 single-handed weapons.

That is what allows you to chose two, and only two single-handed weapons to wield.
"

Erm, sorry, where is the rule I asked for? You have made a bald statement with no rules backing.

Try again. Actual rule this time - something like "if you have more than 2 CCW, please choose whichever 2 you feel like" - that would be good. Anything like that?

DeathReaper wrote:Page 42. Under fighting with 2 single-handed weapons.

That is what allows you to chose two, and only two single-handed weapons to wield.

That gives us the restriction of fighting with only two single-handed weapons.

We know from that, we can not fight with more than single-handed weapons.

So if we have more than two we have to chose single-handed weapons to fulfill one of the different possible combinations.

we are only allowed to wield two single-handed weapons, as per P.42

Or you could just, you know, follow the rules and realize that 2 special close combat weapons is a subset of (2+ (different) SCCW) and that you're as such prevented from EVER getting the additional attack?

For example: You have a Black Templars Chaplain with a Crozius, a bolt pistol and a thunder hammer. When it his turn to attack, you check the rules for attacking and realize that you have at least two special close combat weapons, and as such have to follow the rules for fighting with 2 different special close combat weapons as laid out in the rulebook. Note that there's nothing in the rules whatsoever about you being allowed to choose to ignore the fact that you have at least 2 different SCCWs, which is what nos has been wanting you to acknowledge.

AlmightyWalrus wrote:

DeathReaper wrote:Page 42. Under fighting with 2 single-handed weapons.

That is what allows you to chose two, and only two single-handed weapons to wield.

That gives us the restriction of fighting with only two single-handed weapons.

We know from that, we can not fight with more than single-handed weapons.

So if we have more than two we have to chose single-handed weapons to fulfill one of the different possible combinations.

we are only allowed to wield two single-handed weapons, as per P.42

Or you could just, you know, follow the rules and realize that 2 special close combat weapons is a subset of (2+ (different) SCCW) and that you're as such prevented from EVER getting the additional attack?

For example: You have a Black Templars Chaplain with a Crozius, a bolt pistol and a thunder hammer. When it his turn to attack, you check the rules for attacking and realize that you have at least two special close combat weapons, and as such have to follow the rules for fighting with 2 different special close combat weapons as laid out in the rulebook. Note that there's nothing in the rules whatsoever about you being allowed to choose to ignore the fact that you have at least 2 different SCCWs, which is what nos has been wanting you to acknowledge.

????

Main rule
"Fighting with 2 single handed CCW" Models can use 2 single handed weapons in close combat check the list

Sub rules
"2 Normal CCW" +1attack
"special + Normal CCW" + 1 attack and weapon effects
"2 Matching Special CCW" + 1 attack and weapon effects
"2 Different Special CCW" + pick a weapon effect no bonus attack

So unless you model is some how fighting with 2 different special weapons then that is the only time it comes up.

As Nos has said there isn't an option to pick weapons before combat ... but being fair there also aren't rules for picking shooting weapons ether ... the model is given the option not to shoot but not to pick a weapons to shoot. Since I've never been asked to show a rule allowing me to choose what gun my model fires why must I find a rule that shows i can pick what I uses to bash the other guys brains in.

"can fire a single weapon" - theres the allowance to choose.

nosferatu1001 wrote:"can fire a single weapon" - theres the allowance to choose.

can use two single close combat weapons ... glad we agree

.....which doesnt get you around the NEVER, as you still have 2 different special CCW

It also doesnt get you around choosing WHICH 2. It specifies you are armed with 2, not 3

If the model's weilding two different special weapon then no you can't but since a model must be using two weapons (you've already said permission is given to choose them), so if model has three + weapons they must pick two BEFORE looking at the list. When looking at the list you ignore any reference that does not match the weapons that you are Using/wielding.

Yet you dont have permission to choose before that - you only have permission to choose when you are down to 2 weapons.

Also you never "use' two weapons, you only ever use one.

nosferatu1001 wrote:Yet you dont have permission to choose before that - you only have permission to choose when you are down to 2 weapons.

Also you never "use' two weapons, you only ever use one.

I think this is a key distinction, you never attack with 2 weapons, you only ever attack with 1 weapon and there are ways to get a +1 attack if criteria are met. If you have a single SCCW you are forced to use it and having 2 regular CCW never gives you the option not to apply the effects or penalities. (IE: Turn off the powerfist)

If you have 2 SCCW you may choose one of them and then never recieve a bonus. You do not get to choose two weapons and then select the combo. The rules never say this and never allow it.

CASE I

I have a bolt pistol, and a plasma gun.

I can shoot with one ranged weapon.

I can choose which one to shoot with.


CASE II

I have a thunder hammer, a power sword and a bolt pistol.

I can use two single handed close combat weapons.

I can choose which two to use.


Clear enough?

Having is not same than using.
The rules for using two different special weapons only come to play (Imagine that!) when I am using two different special weapons.

Crimson wrote:CASE II

I have a thunder hammer, a power sword and a bolt pistol.

I can use two single handed close combat weapons.

I can choose which two to use.


Clear enough?

Having is not same than using.
The rules for using two different special weapons only come to play (Imagine that!) when I am using two different special weapons.

The rules do not say this. You never attack with two weapons. You only ever attack with one weapon and may get a bonus attack based upon certain criteria.

You never get the chance to choose two weapons. If you have 1 SCCW you have to use it. If you have 2 SCCW you then get to chose one of them and never get a bonus attack such is the penalty for choosing.

If you have 3 weapons, two of which are SCCW then you are told what to do, choose one of the SCCW and never get a bonus attack. You may not choose a SCCW and a CCW for a bonus attack as the rules never permit you to. You only are able to if you have a single SCCW.

This is pretty easy. Just because you can choose for shooting you can't make up rules for CC.

nkelsch wrote:
The rules do not say this. You never attack with two weapons. You only ever attack with one weapon and may get a bonus attack based upon certain criteria.

Yes, you attack with one weapon, but still wield two, and can be equipped with more. That is why we have rules for fighting with two weapons.
But it would've been nice if GW had kept the terminology clearer...

You never get the chance to choose two weapons. If you have 1 SCCW you have to use it. If you have 2 SCCW you then get to chose one of them and never get a bonus attack such is the penalty for choosing.

If you have 3 weapons, two of which are SCCW then you are told what to do, choose one of the SCCW and never get a bonus attack. You may not choose a SCCW and a CCW for a bonus attack as the rules never permit you to. You only are able to if you have a single SCCW.

This is pretty easy. Just because you can choose for shooting you can't make up rules for CC.

But there are no rules that say you can choose for shooting either! Choosing is merely implied.


Frankly, I can see both sides for this. I think both interpretations make sense, and rules are too vague to clearly determine it either way.
I'd always go with RAI over RAW, but I don't have the foggiest what the intent is here either. Considering how old this edition already is, it is strange that there has not been a FAQ on this matter.

It isnt implied...

FIghting with two weapons restricts the use case to only having a maximum of 2 CCW. Having 3 does not let you choose a subset of 2.

nosferatu1001 wrote:It isnt implied...

FIghting with two weapons restricts the use case to only having a maximum of 2 CCW. Having 3 does not let you choose a subset of 2.

Show me the rule that lets me to choose which shooting weapon I use. There is not one. But if I have more than I can use, I can still choose. Why the same would not apply here?

(Frankly, the rules for CC weapons are written like they'd have not even thought that there could be models with more than two weapons.)

Frankly there is no option of choice in the CCWs rules, and "Fighting with 2 single-handed weapons" does not mean you only ever fight with 2.

lets go back to page 37: "+1 two weapon: Engaged models with two single handed weapons (typically a close combat weapon and/or pistol in each hand) get an extra +1 attack. Models with more than 2 weapons gain no additional benefit - you only get one extra attack even if you have more than two weapons."

See that bolded part? between it and never being told that you can only ever use 2 weapons in close combat we are left with the assumpion that Models do infact use their 1000+ Power swords all at the same time, or their 1000+ Normals, or their 1000+Power swords with their 1000+ Normals(for a total of 2000+ single handed weapons).

The only time we are ever given a choice in weapon to use we are also then restricted to that 1 weapon(instead of the 999+ other weapons we have), and are denied any bonus attacks: that choice is when we have at least 2 different Special close combat weapons equipped.

The latter half of the paragraph just under "fighting with two single-handed weapons" grants us an extra choice: if we have any two-handed weapons we can always choose to use those.

In this case a model with a Special 2-handed CCW, and a normal and a Special Single handed CCW would be able to choose between the two-handed weapons effect, and the 1-handed weapons effects+bonus attack. As i am at a loss for examples lets assume for a moment that DR is correct about the Relic blade(this is not me saying he is correct; this is me saying I need a rhetorical that we will know the base rules for); So the Hopnour guard has the Relic Blade and the power sword+BP; he can choose to either strike 3x on the charge with a S6 PW, or 4x on the charge with a S4 PW; because he is not equipped with 2 different single handed Special CCWs, and the rules do allow for a choice between 2-handed and single handed weapon use.

Kommissar Kel wrote:
The latter half of the paragraph just under "fighting with two single-handed weapons" grants us an extra choice: if we have any two-handed weapons we can always choose to use those.

Wait wait! That does not follow. It just says 'if using...' there is no mention of choice there.

It is closer to a choice than anywhere else; it is also the only mention of two-handed weapons on the page.

"If you are using" denotes a choice: the rest of the rule deals with Combinations of weapons that can be used(in total, not per situation), and only 1 set of equipped single-handed CCweapons ever allows a choice: 2 different Specials. The rest merely provide you with the benefits they provide.

So you need to look at what CCWs are equipped on the model in question, then look at what the rules for the various combinations of equipped weapons provide, then you need to follow the most specific rule involved because as we all know: Specific trumps general.

In the case of a model with 2 pistols and a power sword, there are 2 combinations of weapons: 2 normals, ad a normal and a Special; both provide a bonus attack, so no problem there. The Special + Normal states that all attacks are made with the Special, so now we know what weapon combination must be used: the normal+ Special.

We have a model with a Pair of Lightning Claws, a Pistol, and a Power fist; there are 3 options: 2 of the same Specials, A normal and a special that never gains a bonus, and 2 different Specials, the most specific rule is that of the 2 different Specials which forces the choice of 1 weapon to be used and denies that model from ever gaining a bonus attack.

I'm starting to get confused here. Assuming the relic blade is a 2-handed weapon; then you are able to choose relic blade and have "x" attacks or use the bolt pistol and power sword and have "x+1" attacks. However I thought that if you have 2 SCCW then you don't get a bonus to attack. Or is it only 1-handed SCCW?

Only 2 different 1 handeds; which is what the combinations are talking about; the different combinations of 2 equipped 1-handed CCWs that can be used in Close combat.

So if the relic blade is 2-handed, then, you would gain an additional attack if you use the bolt pistol and power sword?

Yes.

Kommissar Kel wrote:It is closer to a choice than anywhere else; it is also the only mention of two-handed weapons on the page.

"If you are using" denotes a choice: the rest of the rule deals with Combinations of weapons that can be used(in total, not per situation), and only 1 set of equipped single-handed CCweapons ever allows a choice: 2 different Specials. The rest merely provide you with the benefits they provide.

Now you are just making stuff up. 'If you are using' does not denote a choice. You have been harping on how we cannot choose which mêlée weapons to use, because the rules do not explicitly allow that.

So either we can always choose which weapon(s) to use, or if a model is armed with an one-handed and a two handed weapon the game crashes, as it is impossible to choose with which one to attack. I know which one I prefer.

Crimson wrote:

Kommissar Kel wrote:It is closer to a choice than anywhere else; it is also the only mention of two-handed weapons on the page.

"If you are using" denotes a choice: the rest of the rule deals with Combinations of weapons that can be used(in total, not per situation), and only 1 set of equipped single-handed CCweapons ever allows a choice: 2 different Specials. The rest merely provide you with the benefits they provide.

Now you are just making stuff up. 'If you are using' does not denote a choice. You have been harping on how we cannot choose which mêlée weapons to use, because the rules do not explicitly allow that.

So either we can always choose which weapon(s) to use, or if a model is armed with an one-handed and a two handed weapon the game crashes, as it is impossible to choose with which one to attack. I know which one I prefer.

Bolded the important part. The only time you get to choose what weapon to use is when you have 2 different SCCWs. The same rule that allows you to choose prevents you from ever getting an additional attack from having 2 weapons.

As has been said you use two weapons and you attack with one.

If you have more then 3 weapons you must choose two use; the same as model with more then 1 weapon must pick one to shoot with.

If those two weapon, that you are using, are two different close combat weapons, then you don't get an extra attack. Otherwise the combination will give an extra attack (...excluding two handed weapons and other rules that negate this bonus)

This is because "Two different special weapons" is only used if it is called by "fighting with two single handed weapons". You can't call TDSW before you've had FW2SHW so any one claiming this is the choice are mad.

The rules work fine for a model with a single gun and a maximum of two close combat weapons but break for any one with any more. Ether you can choose or the game breaks. Since no one ever gives me a hard time choosing what i shoot then why should they dislike my choice of weapon?

AlmightyWalrus wrote:
Bolded the important part. The only time you get to choose what weapon to use is when you have 2 different SCCWs. The same rule that allows you to choose prevents you from ever getting an additional attack from having 2 weapons.

No, that part refers only to one-handed SCCWs. "Some models are equipped with two-single handed weapons they can use in close combat, with the rules given below for different combinations." The about two-handed says that if you are using such a weapon, then you do not use these rules.

Actually, If we go with logic that you can only choose when specifically allowed, I'd say that then you have to use two-handed weapon if you are equipped with one (rather than the game just crashing.)

But I do not still believe that's what is intended. You are supposed to be able to choose, just like with shooting weapons. A bit about two different specials is there only to make sure that you cannot claim benefits of special rules of two different weapons simultaneously.

What I have been harping on is that when presented with multiple single-handed weapons you are given an explicit choice of use only with 1 combination of equipped weapons, in all other cases you are using every weapon at hand(not just 2) and are forced to use the most Specific combination.

For two-handed weapons we do have an implied choice, because there is insufficient rules and the rules state If we are using(and have nothing to do with what we are equipped with, unlike the Single-handed weapons).

The Core of the Rule is that you must take into account all weapons you are equipped with and only 1 combination of equipped weapons allow a choice; Walrus bolded that choice.

Tri: please show me a rule that states Models can only ever use 2 different weapons; because I already showed a rule that said otherwise.

Kommissar Kel wrote:Tri: please show me a rule that states Models can only ever use 2 different weapons; because I already showed a rule that said otherwise.

? You are given permision to use one or two weapons on page 42 and not told how to use any more. The rules give permission to do things and then limit that where applicable. As for what you pointed out earlier.

Page 37 NUMBER OF ATTACKS // + 1 Two Weapons:
"Models with more than two weapons gain no
additional benefit - you only get one extra attack.
even if you have more than two weapons."
... doesn't actually say use it says have. The model can have any number of weapons but can only use 2 of them.

There is a reason that those rule say two every where no multiple or more then one or hell "different special weapons" why bother with two at all?

Can we please all agree that we have no rules to support either one case of the other? And if you say we do please remember you are reading a rule that says a model equipped with two CCW. which is not the case

So if you want to play a game in a specific way please discuss with your opponent before the games starts and/or e-mail GW for a rule that covers this and don't play any games until then?

Tri wrote:

Kommissar Kel wrote:Tri: please show me a rule that states Models can only ever use 2 different weapons; because I already showed a rule that said otherwise.

? You are given permision to use one or two weapons on page 42 and not told how to use any more. The rules give permission to do things and then limit that where applicable. As for what you pointed out earlier.

Page 37 NUMBER OF ATTACKS // + 1 Two Weapons:
"Models with more than two weapons gain no
additional benefit - you only get one extra attack.
even if you have more than two weapons."
... doesn't actually say use it says have. The model can have any number of weapons but can only use 2 of them.

There is a reason that those rule say two every where no multiple or more then one or hell "different special weapons" why bother with two at all?

no you are given permission to use your equipped weapons in the combinations given; this means that all equipped weapons are to be used, but we must find the most relevant rules in the combinations to determine what weapons rules get used and what if any bonus is granted.

To do this we then take the Equipped weapons and begin looking at the combinations; we have no choice in the matter(excepting the very most specific combination, which very specifically allows a choice) we must use the most specific combination set rules.

Take for example a SM Assault Marine sgt; said sgt purchases a pair of Lightning in exchange for his CCW(Legal option), keeping his Bolt pistol; now it comes time for close combat; the Sgt's Player looks at his equipped weapons: 2 Lightning Claws, and a normal CCW(the Bolt pistol), so he looks at the relevant combinations and there rules: Special and a Normal & 2 of the Same Specials. He sees that with Special and a Normal he would not gain a bonus attack because the Special is one of the specials that require a second of the Same, He also sees that all attacks use the Specials rules. He then looks at the 2 of the same and sees that he uses the specials and gains a bonus. He will always have to use the 2 specials because it is the most specific rule(the Special and normal even tell him to use the 2 specials rule since he will be using the special's rules anyway, and that particular Special will gain a bonus only when the model equipped with it has a second one)

I would also like to call your attention back to the Normal and Special rules(which further reinforces that the entire section is about equipped weapons): "Power fists, Thunder Hammers, and Lightning Claws are an exception to this. Only a second power fist, thunder hammer or lightning claw can confer a bonus attack to a model equipped with one of these weapons."

Adding on to Kommissar Kel's post, the first paragraph under 2 CCW says: Some models are equipped with two single-handed weapons" That's EQUIPPED not using/wielding. If you have 2 SCCW EQUIPPED you NEVER gain the bonus attack regardless of the weapons your currently wielding/using.

Couple of things I would point out (don't know if someone pointed this out yet or not as I am feeling lazy to read all 5 pages) but even if someone were to find convincing evidence that would prove that the 2 SCCW + 1 CCW you could get the +1A theory the Slugga+PK would not get it. Codex Ork page 89 clearly says that the Power Claw is a Power fist and page 42 BGB states that for a model with a Power Fist to get +1A for 2 CCW they must be wielding 2 Power Fists.

Not to sound like a jerk, Saiisil, but what exactly is your point? No one is trying to say PK and slugga get a bonus attack.

I bring that up because I saw someone say something about that on page 1 but didn't see any correction to it on either page 1 or 2. However I personally feel that the 'Urty Syringe and Slugga combo is a no go. Reason for this is page 42 of the BGB right hand column, first it mentions under 'Fighting with two single-handed weapons' "some models are equipped" further down it explains the different combos and the last combo is 'Two different special weapons' the paragraph here doesn't specify wielding so we fall back to the previous mentioned sentence wording of being equipped, it goes on you have to choose which weapon you bonus from and you gain no bonus attacks "(such is the penalty for wielding too many complex weapons)". This is why I believe no bonus attack in that case. Such as I have always played it for my own units that have similar issues.

Slightly OT, I've only screwed this up (partially) with Eldrad. Granting a bonus attack with Witchblade and shuri-pistol, but not with Staff. Then again I thought that the staff was 2-handed until a couple of days ago, so I was playing partially right...

Grots R OP wrote:Clearly he can swing the PK and then pull the slugga trigger. Likewise he could poke you with syringe and pull the trigger. In the PK case, the slugga is "just a distraction that allows the PK to hit you better"-resulting in 5 attacks. And in the syringe case, the slugga blows a hole in you at short range-which allows the "missed" syringe poke's poison to seep into the wound-so +1.

this is one of the posts I was talking about.

Apologies, been awhile since I read the beginning of this thread...

accepted, though I don't think you needed to delete what you originally posted when you edited your post to ask why I brought it up. I know where I stand on the issue and I can and have provided the evidence to my side. I have never seen convincing evidence any other way around.

Kommissar Kel wrote:no you are given permission to use your equipped weapons in the combinations given; this means that all equipped weapons are to be used, but we must find the most relevant rules in the combinations to determine what weapons rules get used and what if any bonus is granted.

Interesting but flawed since that only gives the choice to pick between two where as a model like calgar has three. Now you are giver permision to use two weapons so you must pick two to use those rules and if for some reason you still are using two different special weapons you must again pick which to use.

Still lets keep reading ...

To do this we then take the Equipped weapons and begin looking at the combinations; we have no choice in the matter(excepting the very most specific combination, which very specifically allows a choice) we must use the most specific combination set rules.

Nope you are not told to look at every combination just the combination that you are using

Take for example a SM Assault Marine sgt; said sgt purchases a pair of Lightning in exchange for his CCW(Legal option), keeping his Bolt pistol; now it comes time for close combat; the Sgt's Player looks at his equipped weapons: 2 Lightning Claws, and a normal CCW(the Bolt pistol), so he looks at the relevant combinations and there rules: Special and a Normal & 2 of the Same Specials. He sees that with Special and a Normal he would not gain a bonus attack because the Special is one of the specials that require a second of the Same, He also sees that all attacks use the Specials rules. He then looks at the 2 of the same and sees that he uses the specials and gains a bonus. He will always have to use the 2 specials because it is the most specific rule(the Special and normal even tell him to use the 2 specials rule since he will be using the special's rules anyway, and that particular Special will gain a bonus only when the model equipped with it has a second one)

except that would some how require him to be using more then two weapons.

I would also like to call your attention back to the Normal and Special rules(which further reinforces that the entire section is about equipped weapons): "Power fists, Thunder Hammers, and Lightning Claws are an exception to this. Only a second power fist, thunder hammer or lightning claw can confer a bonus attack to a model equipped with one of these weapons."

Equipped? you mean like wielding ready to use? My equipment includes two power fist which i have equipped so that i can use them together for an extra attack.

Equipped == has as part of their wargear. Not "ready to use"

"so you must pick two to use those rules "

[Citation Needed]

Find the rule allowing you to pick two, and you're golden. What, there isnt one? Guess you're still making up rules, and still unable to admit to it.

nosferatu1001 wrote:Equipped == has as part of their wargear. Not "ready to use"

"so you must pick two to use those rules "

[Citation Needed]

Find the rule allowing you to pick two, and you're golden. What, there isnt one? Guess you're still making up rules, and still unable to admit to it.

Sorry nos but equipping something is getting it ready to use no ifs or but that's common English. As for the "so you must pick two to use those rules " every where on that page you are told exactly how many of each.

Find the rule allowing you to pick what weapon you shoot with, and i will. There is no rule giving permission in ether case both require the model to be using a set number of weapons before being used. You ether pick or the game breaks. So why tell players that they must choose which weapon they use and they won't get a bonus attack from two different special weapons? So people know they don't get a bonus attack, that you can't pick and choose between the attack type and that you must pick one effect.

Now am i making rules up? ... well it depends. There are indeed no rules that tell use what to do if we have more then one shooting weapon, only that we can only use one. Also there are no rules telling us what to do if we have more then two close combat weapons but only rules telling what to do with one or two. Now ether logically we pick, and the game continues on, or the game stops. Now we could also look for a rule that gives us a choice, as you have, and we could raise its priories above it parent rule. That isn't enough though we must now rewrite it so it works with any number of special weapons.

Now in many threads I've just posted the two options and left the thread to die but since in this thread you and others have been going on about how your is is the right way to play ... well till this thread is lock i will deafened my view on how it should be played and refute any arguments.

Again Tri; you have not provided any rules for your argument; and your entire dismissals are based on willful disregard for the actual rules.

But lets go through them one-by-one:

Tri wrote: Interesting but flawed since that only gives the choice to pick between two where as a model like calgar has three. Now you are giver permision to use two weapons so you must pick two to use those rules and if for some reason you still are using two different special weapons you must again pick which to use.

Still lets keep reading ...

I am not even sure where to begin on this one...

The rules, as you keep pointing out, is for only 2 weapons; but more importantly yPage 37 already told us we can only possibly get the bonus for 2 weapons(any more provide no more bonuses, so are superfluous).

That was the first thing you said that was flawed.

Calgar only has 2 weapons, it is just that 1 of those weapons count as 2; I have stated and restated this 3 times in this thread already.

You are not given permission to use 2 weapons and pick which 2; you are given permission to use your equipped weapons(all of them) with the different possible combinations(which I will get to in a moment).

Nope you are not told to look at every combination just the combination that you are using

Seriously re-read the paragraph; this time stop looking for the word USE; just read it. You are fighting with your equipped weapons using the different possible combinations of equipment. You do not ned to have permission to read the rules so such a statement is completely fallacious. Also the Combinations themselves are not for use; they are for Equipped(on the first or second page I explained the Cyclical logic behind Using 2 different and then choosing to use 1; it must be equipped).

except that would some how require him to be using more then two weapons.

Either you are not reading and just being an ass, or you are not comprehending what you are reading(And I thought I was rather clear). Seriously this quote alone dismisses any argument you have for either reason.

Equipped? you mean like wielding ready to use? My equipment includes two power fist which i have equipped so that i can use them together for an extra attack.

This is one of the funniest nonsense-statements I have ever read. You have not shown in any of your examples a form of equipped which means using; it all simply means to have on your person. The "Use" in your statements means to use.

So, yes Equipped, as in Equipped.

Only time the rules specifically tells us to choose, is the case of haven two SCCWs, no other mentions of choosing exist. Yet model equipped for example with one single-handed and one two-handed SCCW. There are no rules that allow us to choose which one to use, as rule about two SCCWs pertains only single handed weapons. Also, If model has toe specials and one normal, there is really nothing that tells us which combination to use.

So if we insist that we are only allowed to choose if specifically told to do so, then the game breaks at this point. We have no way to determine with what weapon the model should attack with.

I claim that we are always able to choose which weapons to use, if we have surplus of them. This is true for shooting, and I see no reason why it would not be so for mêlée. And yes, there are no rule that allows us to do that, not for shooting, not for mêlée, but either we are allowed to choose, or the game breaks.

Purpose of two SCCWs rule is not give us some special allowance to choose, it is merely there to make clear that we can ever only claim special properties of one weapon at time.

Tri - there is also nothing limiting you to only having 2 shooting weapons. The other point you keep missing.

Stop erroneously comparing shooting to close combat, your attempt at avoidance is noted.

BTW - i wouldnt normally post dictionary definitions, but you just got "equipped" SO wrong it is needed, as you have a complate failure when it comes to what the word means:

"supply with the necessary items for a particular purpose:
all bedrooms are equipped with a colour TV
they equipped themselves for the campaign"

Oxford English Dictionary. Nothing there about "made ready for use", so stop pretending Equip means something else.

The rules only consider you being EQUIPPED with, as in HAVING ON YOUR PERSON 2 CCW. If you have more, there is a gap in the rules AND YOU HAVE NO PERMISSION TO CHOOSE
You have yet to refute a single point, and you will keep failing. Until you can provide a rule lett ing you choose 2 of 3+ CCW, then you are MAKING UP rules and you will ALWAYS be making up rules.

... I guess not maybe i play too many RPG's where you can buy weapons and armour but they do nothing till they are equipped. Fine we'll stick with the dictionary definition meaning have. So a model can only get an extra attack if it has another of that weapon.

Now lets look at shooting you are not given the option to pick a weapon to shoot but you are told you can only fire one. While you are right there is no penalty for having more then one weapon, you are also ignoring the simple fact there is no rule letting you pick ether.

Even though people repeatedly go back to Two different special weapons, that does not give permission to pick which weapons the model uses only what happens is a model is wielding two different special weapons. Even if you take that as having two special weapons it still does not cover models with more.

Tri wrote:Even though people repeatedly go back to Two different special weapons, that does not give permission to pick which weapons the model uses only what happens is a model is wielding two different special weapons. Even if you take that as having two special weapons it still does not cover models with more.

That's the point of the thread... there's nothing that covers when you have more than 2 special weapons, so you have to make up rules.

rigeld2 wrote:

Tri wrote:Even though people repeatedly go back to Two different special weapons, that does not give permission to pick which weapons the model uses only what happens is a model is wielding two different special weapons. Even if you take that as having two special weapons it still does not cover models with more.

That's the point of the thread... there's nothing that covers when you have more than 2 special weapons, so you have to make up rules.

And if you are going to 'make up' or 'imply' rules... it makes no sense that having 2 SCCWs means no bonus attack but having 2 SCCWs + 1 CCW means bonus attack? Why wouldn't every super future space warrior then simply always carry a pocket knife around so he can always get his bonus attack with his special CCWs.

The least beneficial ruling requires the least amount of making up rules and is the best solution... If you have 2 SCCWs, you choose which one to use and you never get a bonus attack which is the drawback of having 2 SCCW. Having 3 weapons should not make you BETTER at combat. The only places that allow choice also tell you you cannot get bonus attacks and is supported by RAW.

nkelsch wrote:The least beneficial ruling requires the least amount of making up rules and is the best solution... If you have 2 SCCWs, you choose which one to use and you never get a bonus attack which is the drawback of having 2 SCCW. Having 3 weapons should not make you BETTER at combat. The only places that allow choice also tell you you cannot get bonus attacks and is supported by RAW.

And that's one of the viewpoints being argued. Thanks for catching up.

rigeld2 wrote:

Tri wrote:Even though people repeatedly go back to Two different special weapons, that does not give permission to pick which weapons the model uses only what happens is a model is wielding two different special weapons. Even if you take that as having two special weapons it still does not cover models with more.

That's the point of the thread... there's nothing that covers when you have more than 2 special weapons, so you have to make up rules.

If you go back one of these threads (think it may now be on page two) You'll find I just explained the two options. What I objects to is people being told that two different special weapons covers everything. Now if people are going to say this is the correct way to play this rule then i will find every fault with it and they are welcome to do the same.

Tri wrote:What I objects to is people being told that two different special weapons covers everything.

Because it does. Do you have 2 different special weapons? It doesn't matter that you have 3, 4, 10, or 50. You have 2 - so you follow the rules in that section.

So you finally admit you need to make up rules? Or are you still unwilling to do that yet?

No deflection, just a straight up answer: the rules only allow models to be equipped with 2 CCW. So a model with 3CCW cannot attack. Correct or no? If "No", cite the PRECISE RULE allowing them to choose 2 of the 3+ in order to then be able to actually choose a single 1

nosferatu1001 wrote:So you finally admit you need to make up rules? Or are you still unwilling to do that yet?

No deflection, just a straight up answer: the rules only allow models to be equipped with 2 CCW. So a model with 3CCW cannot attack. Correct or no? If "No", cite the PRECISE RULE allowing them to choose 2 of the 3+ in order to then be able to actually choose a single 1

You absolutely right let me just post in a comment from an earlier thread

Tri wrote:There are three reading, one i agree with and one i don't ... but here are both with the reasons why and why not ... Make your own mind up ... or don't but this is what this thread amounts to.

1) If you have 3+ close combat weapons and 2 are different special weapons then as per fighting with two different special weapons you never get the bonus attack.
(why not?) because you are not using all two weapons so how can you read a subsection of a rule that requires two weapons.

2) If you have 3+ close combat weapons you must pick two or you can select no of the options on page 42 (as there are only rules for fighting with 1 or 2 weapons). Pick those weapons you wish to use and look up the effect.
(Why not?) because you are wielding (meaning having) two different special weapons so you can never get the bonus attack for wielding two weapons.

and (not that any one ever bothers with this ... but i do want to cover all the bases)
3) There are no rules for a model with 3+ weapons so such models can never use any of the rules on page 42 and attacks without any bonuses.
(why not?) because no one in there right mind would think that a model with a weapon wouldn't use it just because they had too many.

Whichever way you go know that there are no rule backing you 100% any one saying so is lying. This isn't magic ... we do not have a complete rule set

but while I'm linking in responses how about from some one else?

Yakface wrote:The rules for fighting with two single-handed weapons on page 42 of the rulebook *ONLY* work if you assume that they refer to the combinations that the model is able to choose to utilize in that phase.

Why do I say that?

Because the list of combinations on page 42 of the rulebook is not exhaustive. For example, Marneus Calgar actually has THREE special weapons (two powerfists and a power weapon). Eldrad has two special weapons and one normal close combat weapon.

If you want to try to claim that these rules dictate how the model is forced to make his attacks, then the entire system breaks down because there are no rules for models with 3 special weapons or models with two special weapons and one normal weapon.

The only way the rules function as written is if you assume that the player controlling the model gets to choose which two weapons his model is going to use and then consult the rules for fighting with two single-handed weapons to see how those weapons work together.


So ultimately we have one interpretation in which the rules do not work at all and then we have another interpretation that works just fine. As you can't play with the former why is it worth even arguing about?

Tri wrote:... I guess not maybe i play too many RPG's where you can buy weapons and armour but they do nothing till they are equipped. Fine we'll stick with the dictionary definition meaning have. So a model can only get an extra attack if it has another of that weapon.

Now lets look at shooting you are not given the option to pick a weapon to shoot but you are told you can only fire one. While you are right there is no penalty for having more then one weapon, you are also ignoring the simple fact there is no rule letting you pick ether.

Even though people repeatedly go back to Two different special weapons, that does not give permission to pick which weapons the model uses only what happens is a model is wielding two different special weapons. Even if you take that as having two special weapons it still does not cover models with more.

The point being that the different possible combinations of use are based on what the model is equipped with.

Lets go back to a model with 2 different +1 other(be that other a Normal or a Same as one of the 2 different)

In this case the model is equipped with 3 CCWS, he has the different possibilities of use following those rules. Those rules then either simply state a bonus, State a bonus and determine that all attacks are made with the special(with a restriction on certain specials that they gain no bonus unless the model is carrying a second copy of the same special), State a choice but remove any chance of a bonus.

Gong through the possible weapon combinations we see that the most specific combination of weapons equipped is the one that grants a choice of a single weapon used, and denies any bonus.

Tri: I went back to this post BTW; because the same answer also covers your later post. it is not simply that you have 2 different specials and therefore it is the only one you should look at, that is not what I am saying. I am saying that in all cases of 2+ equipped 1-handed CCWs you need to find the combination that is most specific to what weapons you are equipped with, and those are the rules you must follow. It just so happens that in this case 2 different Specials is the most specific rule(as you would have 2 sets of Special and Normal, both of which telling you that you always use the Special and no option to choose which special)

For these same reasons the Assault marine Sgt with a pair of Lightning Claws and a Bolt Pistol will always use the Pair of claws in combat ad gain the bonus; it is the most specific combination.

As I have said 3 times in the thread already I am open to the option of Calgar gaining a bonus attack from his single weapon that is a pair of weapons; but then I also consider him a complete monkey-wrench in these rules and closer to an exception than the norm(It would require an FAQ to be anything other than a house-rule, and the only reason for the bonus would be the same as Nemesis Force Falchions, or the wargear selection of said Assault marine Sgt).

It doesn't matter how many CCW you can use. That whole section deals with how many CCW you are equipped with.
Let's look at Eldrad. He has a Witchblade (SCCW), Shuri-pistol (Normal CCW), and Staff of Ulthamar (SCCW). He is equipped with all 3. Now we look at our options for fighting.
2 Normal CCW - does not apply
2 Identical Special CCW - does not apply
Normal and Special - gains one additional attack...BUT
2 different Special CCW - NEVER get bonus attack for using 2 weapons.
Eldrad is equipped with 2 different special CCWs. No matter what weapon he chooses to use, he is still EQUIPPED with 2 different special CCW. Therefore he NEVER gains a bonus to attack for using 2 weapons.

I like that quote technique, Tri.

Happyjew wrote:It doesn't matter how many CCW you can use. That whole section deals with how many CCW you are equipped with.

That is 100% not true.

Read the entry again.

"Some models are equipped with two single-handed weapons they can use in close combat."

They detail them being equipped and using two single-handed weapons.

and he never gets the bonus attack for using two different special weapons.

Kei, why is two special CCWs more specific rule than special and normal?

Why can a space marine armed with a special weapon still choose to fire his bolt pistol instead?

Also, what allows you to choose if you have a one two-handed and one single-handed SCCW?

Kommissar Kel wrote:The point being that the different possible combinations of use are based on what the model is equipped with.

Right so what you are saying is having the weapon is enough to trigger the rule? Well ok, yes you could read the page that way. You have to ignore a number of reference to use but yes you can. Does this solve the problems? No lets pick another example a model has a power fist, a pistol and a combat knife. What do we do then? The list is telling us to do two contradictory things.

How do we solve this? i suggest we pick two weapons and then look at the list

DR: you really need to add the rest of that quote, the parts after the comma:
"Some models are equipped with two single-handed weapons they can use in close combat, with the rules given below for the different possible combinations."

Placing a period where the comma is and then ending the quote changes the sentence and is altering the facts to fit your side of the debate.

You use the 2 weapons equipped, in the combinations of rules that follow.

Crimson: Special and normal always uses the rules for the Special; you have 2 specials and 2 sets of Special and Normal(in the case of grotsnik a Power klaw & a slugga or a Slugga and 'Urty Syringe); so where do you find the specific rules that allow you to choose which special weapon you use?

Tri: all the references to use(excepting the "If you are using a 2-handed weapon" bit; which denotes a choice to use any 2-handed CCWs, while it does not give explicit permission to choose, but then the entire page does not discuss 2-handed weapons anywhere else) are based on equipped weapons; the first I pointed out to DR: the equipped weapons are used in the combinations given. The remainder are all in the combinations: you use the special rules of the Special CCW for 2 of the same SCCW, You use the rules for the special weapon when you have a Special and a normal, you use the 1(and only 1) chosen Special weapon for 2 different specials.

For the Powerfist and 2 normals(basically what you said with the Combat knife and pistol), you do the exact same thing: parse out each combination and find the most specific combination: 2 normals gives a flat Bonus attack, it is the least specific out of all 4. Then you have 2 sets of normal and a special(Combat knife and Power fist, and pistol and Power fist), this rule generally gives you a bonus attack ad specifies that all attacks are made with the special, it then further specifies that Power fists will only ever gain a bonus attack from a model being equipped with 2 power fists.

Most specific(in Tri's example) is normal and Special since it tells you you always use the special.

In order of Specificity(Least to most) the rules go:
2 normals: least specific(flat bonus, no weapon use determined)
2 of the same Special: Next Least specific(Flat bonus, all attacks made with the Special)
a normal and a special: 2nd most specific(general bonus, all attacks made with the Special, certain specials never gain a bonus without a second copy of themselves equipped)
2 different Specials: most specific(Specifically never gains a bonus, you may choose which 1 weapon is used for all attacks)

If you only have 1 SH-CCW; you use that 1 weapon and do not have to worry.

If you only have 2 SH-CCWs; then the rules are incredibly straightforward, you only have 1 possible combination.

If you have any more than 2 SH-CCWs; you need to look at all the different possible combinations to determine which one is used, there is no choice in which combination permitted in the rules so the only choice that can be made is via the more specific rules.

Kommissar Kel wrote:so where do you find the specific rules that allow you to choose which special weapon you use?

I can answer this for you Kel.

BGB page 42 right hand column last pagargraph titled Two different special weapons wrote: When it is their turn to attack, these models must choose which weapon to use that turn, but they never get the bonus attack for using two weapons (such is the penalty for wielding too many complex weapons!).

Saiisil wrote:

Kommissar Kel wrote:so where do you find the specific rules that allow you to choose which special weapon you use?

I can answer this for you Kel.

BGB page 42 right hand column last pagargraph titled Two different special weapons wrote: When it is their turn to attack, these models must choose which weapon to use that turn, but they never get the bonus attack for using two weapons (such is the penalty for wielding too many complex weapons!).

I almost peed when I saw this post!

Saiisil, read the last half of hte sentence YOU just quoted, please.

Which half? the actual sentence or the part in parenthesis?

I was merely answering Kel's question about where to find specific rules about where it allows one to choose which special weapon they are using. Though it isn't exactly an allowance more of a requirement to do so. I also know the rules doesn't explicitly cover models with more then 2 weapons that can be used in hth but if we follow all of the different wordings found on that same page we can make assumptions as to what they would say if they did. Though making those assumptions is merely interpreting the RAI because there is no true RAW regarding the issue.

Crimson wrote:Kei, why is two special CCWs more specific rule than special and normal?

Because of the word 'never' that is included in the rule. just like any other time, when you have two rules in conflict with one that allows something (special and normal grants +1 attack) and one that states you can never get that same thing, well, never wins.

Seriously folks, how is this a question? Forget whatever other weapons the model might be carrying because it really doesn't matter.
Does it have two different special weapons? Yes.
At some point in the combat process, do you have to CHOOSE which one of them the model is going to attack with? Yes. Doesn't matter if you chose the special #1 plus something else, all that matters is taht you made a choice between the two different special weapons.
That means you are using the two different weapons rule as it is the only rule that allows you to choose one of two different special weapons to attack with and it says what again? Never get +1 attack.

Kommissar Kel I like you're reasoning but as I've said before it only works if you ignore that you should be using the weapons to get the bonus. In this case the most specific rule is that the model is using them.

NORMAL CLOSE COMBAT WEAPONS
Weapons like chainswords, rifle butts, combat blades,
bayonets, etc., do not confer any particular bonus to
the model using them. Remember that, in close
combat, pistols count as normal close combat weapons
and so the Strength and AP of the pistol are ignored.

SPECIAL CLOSE COMBAT WEAPONS
These include more complex and powerful weapons
that enhance the wielder's combat skills and confer
bonuses, and sometimes penalties, to the models using
them. The most widely used are listed below:

FIGHTING WITH TWO
SINGLE-HANDED WEAPONS
Some models are equipped with two single-handed
weapons they can use in close combat, with the rules
given below for the different possible combinations.

The sub rules are there for what is being used. Nothing more. No rules for picking a shooting weapon or a close combat weapon/s but we must to play the game.

You really haven't proven a point with those quotes.

Your first 2 are the broad-stroke basic rules for weapons of that type(whether they are single, or two handed).

Furthermore the "using" on normals, if you would actually look at rules and not for buzz-words, do not confer any particular bonus to the model using them.

So normals being used clearly can never do anything(including grant a bonus attack, which is a bonus), Right?

Seriously, searching the rules for a buzzword, and not reading the rule; does not make a very good case in your favor. The use of the word "Use" needs to be looked at in context to the rules you are reading to see just what is being talked about.

For the Fighting with two single-handed weapons use of the word "use"; I already admonished DR several times in this thread for ignoring the rest of the sentence, and here you are once again trying to remove the second half which changes the meaning of the first.

Yes, models can use 2 weapons; but they have to do so with the rules given below for the different possible combinations, which are based on what the model is equipped with.

So, since the weapons a model is equipped with will determine what weapons the model uses, and the different possible combinations have varying specificity with only 1 combination ever allowing a choice of weapon to use...

You know, I can just see a huge ork holding a cobbled together pistol in one hand and gingerly holding a giant rusty syringe in a mechanical klaw-like contraption with sweat dripping down as he tries very, very hard not to break the syringe...


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Somebody PLEASE make this drawing...

rigeld2 wrote:

Tri wrote:Even though people repeatedly go back to Two different special weapons, that does not give permission to pick which weapons the model uses only what happens is a model is wielding two different special weapons. Even if you take that as having two special weapons it still does not cover models with more.

That's the point of the thread... there's nothing that covers when you have more than 2 special weapons, so you have to make up rules.

Well, make up rules... or somehow apply the ones you have been provided with. As someone probably said already an easy solution is to think of a model with 3+ weapons as also being a model with 2 weapons.

Which is making up a rule to allow that. Which is the point.

I realize it's fluff, but I kinda just gave a reason why Grotsnik would never get a bonus to attack. As he wears the PK (or it replaces his hand, who knows), he only has 1 hand in which to wield a CCW, either a slugga or 'urty syringe. So now he only has 2 options - PK and pistol (no bonus) or PK and syringe (no bonus)

rigeld2 wrote:Which is making up a rule to allow that. Which is the point.

No it is applying the supplied rules to a situation not covered.

Claiming that you can choose any 2 weapons is making up rules.

Parsing out every weapon combination possible amongst the more than 2 weapons; then looking for the most specific rule is applying the rules given.

Kommissar Kel wrote:DR: you really need to add the rest of that quote, the parts after the comma:
"Some models are equipped with two single-handed weapons they can use in close combat, with the rules given below for the different possible combinations."

Placing a period where the comma is and then ending the quote changes the sentence and is altering the facts to fit your side of the debate.

You use the 2 weapons equipped, in the combinations of rules that follow.

If you HAVE 3, you can only USE 2, so you have to pick your 2 weapons and consult the rules for what you are using.

No need to make up any rules. since we can only use two weapons, and we have three, we have three subsets of two, so we pick one of those subsets and apply the rules for that set.

DeathReaper wrote:

Kommissar Kel wrote:DR: you really need to add the rest of that quote, the parts after the comma:
"Some models are equipped with two single-handed weapons they can use in close combat, with the rules given below for the different possible combinations."

Placing a period where the comma is and then ending the quote changes the sentence and is altering the facts to fit your side of the debate.

You use the 2 weapons equipped, in the combinations of rules that follow.

If you HAVE 3, you can only USE 2, so you have to pick your 2 weapons and consult the rules for what you are using.

The rules don't say that when you have 3 you choose two. Only when you have two SCCW choose 1 and never get a bonus attack.

You are making up rules to gain an advantage.

No the rules say that you can only use two weapons in close combat.

so if you have three, you can not use three, and must choose two to use in close combat, since you are only allowed to use two weapons even though you have three weapons.

no need to make up any rules, since you can only use two weapons in close combat.

Only when you have, and are using, two SCCW do you have to choose which to use and never gain the bonus for USING two SCCW.

DeathReaper wrote:No the rules say that you can only use two weapons in close combat.

so if you have three, you can not use three, and must choose two to use in close combat, since you are only allowed to use two weapons even though you have three weapons.

no need to make up any rules, since you can only use two weapons in close combat.

Only when you have, and are using, two SCCW do you have to choose which to use and never gain the bonus for USING two SCCW.

You are making up rules. You never get to choose two.

You may choose one if you have 2sccw.

You are making up rules.

Fact: you are only allowed to use two single-handed weapons in close combat.

If we have three or more how do we fight with only two?

The rules say that you can use 2 equipped weapons in the combinations given; therefore you must parse out all weapons into combinations of 2 and see which combination is the most specific.

There is no: "Pick any 2 equipped weapons and use only that combination"; there is however the rules for the various combinations that you are told to use for your 2 weapons, and they have an order of specificity when actually read and thought about.

Fact: you are never told that.

Fact: when you are equipped with 2 different Special weapons you only use 1.

Fact: in all cases of the rules you only use 1 weapon; you just gain a bonus attack with that weapon for having a second weapon in certain cases.

DeathReaper wrote:Fact: you are only allowed to use two single-handed weapons in close combat.

If we have three or more how do we fight with only two?

Technically you only ever fight with one weapon which may or may not get a bonus attack depending on the situation.

Having 3 weapons doesn't mean the section for having 2sccw doesn't apply.

DeathReaper wrote:Fact: you are only allowed to use two single-handed weapons in close combat.

If we have three or more how do we fight with only two?

Fact: If you have to choose between two special weapons, you need go no further as you have already applied the rule.

DeathReaper wrote:Fact: you are only allowed to use two single-handed weapons in close combat.

If we have three or more how do we fight with only two?

There are no rules that cover that situation. Hence the statement that you must make up rules to allow it.

The section is called 'Fighting with two-single handed weapons' this tells us "Some models are equipped with two single-handed weapons they can use in close combat..."

This establishes we use two-single handed weapons of the weapons we have equipped.

It says you never get the bonus attack for using two weapons.

But that is only listed under the 'Two different special weapons' rules. If you are not using 'Two different special weapons' you do not use the rules for 'Two different special weapons'

You do use two weapons in close combat, even if you are using two different special weapons, since you 'never get the bonus attack for using two weapons'

rigeld2 wrote:There are no rules that cover that situation. Hence the statement that you must make up rules to allow it.

Not at all, since we are restricted to two weapons we must have to choose two weapons to fight with and consult the chart to find our combination.

don_mondo wrote:Fact: If you have to choose between two special weapons, you need go no further as you have already applied the rule.

If you have to choose between two different special weapons that you are wielding.

This is what you are not understanding, you have to be using the weapons to get the bonuses and penalties of said rules, if you are not using two different special weapons why would you use the rules for two different special weapons?

It is like having a bolter and a bolt pistol, if you do not use the bolter and instead use the bolt pistiol, you are not restricted from assaulting simply because you have a bolter.

DeathReaper wrote:The section is called 'Fighting with two-single handed weapons' this tells us "Some models are equipped with two single-handed weapons they can use in close combat..."

This establishes we use two-single handed weapons of the weapons we have equipped.

It says you never get the bonus attack for using two weapons.

But that is only listed under the 'Two different special weapons' rules. If you are not using 'Two different special weapons' you do not use the rules for 'Two different special weapons'

You do use two weapons in close combat, even if you are using two different special weapons, since you 'never get the bonus attack for using two weapons'

rigeld2 wrote:There are no rules that cover that situation. Hence the statement that you must make up rules to allow it.

Not at all, since we are restricted to two weapons we must have to choose two weapons to fight with and consult the chart to find our combination.

don_mondo wrote:Fact: If you have to choose between two special weapons, you need go no further as you have already applied the rule.

If you have to choose between two different special weapons that you are wielding.

This is what you are not understanding, you have to be using the weapons to get the bonuses and penalties of said rules, if you are not using two different special weapons why would you use the rules for two different special weapons?

It is like having a bolter and a bolt pistol, if you do not use the bolter and instead use the bolt pistiol, you are not restricted from assaulting simply because you have a bolter.

You are making up rules. This equipped vs using is made up distinctions in your made up rules.

DeathReaper wrote:The section is called 'Fighting with two-single handed weapons' this tells us "Some models are equipped with two single-handed weapons they can use in close combat..."

Note it says can use not is using. Huge difference there, if the model has 2 SCCW and 1 CCW it can use it must choose between the 2 SCCW to apply the bonus of choice and once the bonus of choice is applied take into effect that the rules say that the model may never gain a bonus attack for extra CCW.

nkelsch wrote:You are making up rules. This equipped vs using is made up distinctions in your made up rules.

No, the rules clearly tell us that we have two weapons we can use in close combat to make our close combat attacks.

It says can use, that denotes actual use. If you are not using a weapon to attack with why would you use rules for weapons you are not actually using?

Meaning they can use not just one weapon, they can use two weapons, so they are in fact using two weapons, since the section is titled 'Fighting with two-single handed weapons'.

Lets say a model has a lightning claw, power sword, and Krak grenades. The model assaults a vehicle, how do we determine if we use a grenade vs. our lightning claw power sword combo?

DeathReaper wrote:Lets say a model has a lightning claw, power sword, and Krak grenades. The model assaults a vehicle, how do we determine if we use a grenade vs. our lightning claw power sword combo?

You are given specific permission to choose the grenade.

rigeld2 wrote:

DeathReaper wrote:Lets say a model has a lightning claw, power sword, and Krak grenades. The model assaults a vehicle, how do we determine if we use a grenade vs. our lightning claw power sword combo?

You are given specific permission to choose the grenade.

Page reference for this?

Because if its there I must have missed it.

I thought it was on page 63 in the callout, but it's not there. And since Grenades aren't listed as CCWs you have no permission ever to use them. So by RAW you can't use em. Awesome.

More rules to make up. The implication exists, but no explicit allowance.

rigeld2 wrote:I thought it was on page 63 in the callout, but it's not there. And since Grenades aren't listed as CCWs you have no permission ever to use them. So by RAW you can't use em. Awesome.

More rules to make up. The implication exists, but no explicit allowance.

Yes, because the rules are written with the assumption that you can always choose which weapon to use. It works for shooting, it works for mêlée. Even the bloody Relic Blade text makes perfect sense* if you accept that the writers meant you to always be able to choose your weapons.

* (Then there would be no contradiction between the 'two-handed' and the rules summary in the end, because the rules summary would replicate the effects of two-handed weapons perfectly.)

Crimson wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:I thought it was on page 63 in the callout, but it's not there. And since Grenades aren't listed as CCWs you have no permission ever to use them. So by RAW you can't use em. Awesome.

More rules to make up. The implication exists, but no explicit allowance.

Yes, because the rules are written with the assumption that you can always choose which weapon to use. It works for shooting, it works for mêlée. Even the bloody Relic Blade text makes perfect sense* if you accept that the writers meant you to always be able to choose your weapons.

* (Then there would be no contradiction between the 'two-handed' and the rules summary in the end, because the rules summary would replicate the effects of two-handed weapons perfectly.)

No rules are written with 'assumptions'. Shooting rules do not apply to CC. You are making up rules.

nkelsch wrote:No rules are written with 'assumptions'. Shooting rules do not apply to CC. You are making up rules.

All right. Stop using grenades then.


And I repeat it for thousandth time, that there are not rules that allow you to choose with which weapon you shoot either.

DeathReaper wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:

DeathReaper wrote:Lets say a model has a lightning claw, power sword, and Krak grenades. The model assaults a vehicle, how do we determine if we use a grenade vs. our lightning claw power sword combo?

You are given specific permission to choose the grenade.

Page reference for this?

Because if its there I must have missed it.

Really?
At best(?) I think you can say they are not optional.

At least from 63, unless you are meaning something I am missing.

editing to add:
I am reiterating the question because its implications cause issues relating to models have equipment and the stated rules for what happens when that equipment is used.

Can you tell me the paragraph from page 63 that allows you to choose to use the grenade instead of the ccw, because I looked there and could not find the explicit allowance to use a grenade instead of a CCW.

DeathReaper wrote:Can you tell me the paragraph from page 63 that allows you to choose to use the grenade instead of the ccw, because I looked there and could not find the explicit allowance to use a grenade instead of a CCW.

rigeld2 wrote:I thought it was on page 63 in the callout, but it's not there. And since Grenades aren't listed as CCWs you have no permission ever to use them. So by RAW you can't use em. Awesome.

More rules to make up. The implication exists, but no explicit allowance.

Perhaps you missed it the first time I posted. I repeated it in case you did.

...each model using them can only ever make one attack, regardless of the number of Attacks on their profile and any bonus attacks.

That's an explanation of what happens when they are used. That is not an explicit allowance to use them. They aren't CCW. There are no rules allowing the use of grenades.

OK, so I think I've figured it out. Since you don't have permission to choose a gun in the shooting phase, any model with more than 1 gun can never shoot. Since you cannot choose weapons in CC if you have more than 2, than those models can never attack. Since you cannot choose to use grenades against vehicles you have to use CCW against them, therefore, any models with 2+ guns, 3+ CCW, and grenades are going to be running around all game doing nothing. Somehow I think this is wrong...

I agree that it seems wrong. Find the permission to do any of those things.

If you can't, you have to make up rules - and I agree, you have to make up rules. And there's no real problem inherent with that.

Yakface wrote:ultimately we have one interpretation in which the rules do not work at all and then we have another interpretation that works just fine.

Yakface is correct, it boils down to two choices.
1) models with 3 or more weapons can never attack.

2) you must pick two weapons to attack with and consult the rules for the weapons you are using.

Yakface wrote:As you can't play with the former why is it worth even arguing about?

thank you all for the discussion.

DeathReaper wrote:

Yakface wrote:ultimately we have one interpretation in which the rules do not work at all and then we have another interpretation that works just fine.

Yakface is correct, it boils down to two choices.
1) models with 3 or more weapons can never attack.

2) you must pick two weapons to attack with and consult the rules for the weapons you are using.

Yakface wrote:As you can't play with the former why is it worth even arguing about?

thank you all for the discussion.

Wrong, you can apply the rules that apply. If you have 2sccw you are told what to do and the penalty for choosing. Nothing allows you to chose 1 sccw and 1ccw if you are equipped with 2sccw even if you have more weapons.

Stop making up rules.

nkelsch, What rules allow a model with 3 or more weapons to fight?

DeathReaper wrote:nkelsch, What rules allow a model with 3 or more weapons to fight?

If a model has 2sccw he can attack even if he has hundreds of regular ccw. The rules for having 2sccw apply because he has 2sccw. That is the only place a choice is allowed and the penalty for choosing. Nothing allows you to ignore one of your sccw to use the other rule sets.

Read that section again, it details how models with 2 ccw's fight.

Where is the section about models with 3 or more ccws?

How about I throw a curve here, this particular argument is about a model that has 2 SCCW and 1 Pistol, Page 29 tells us that pistols counts as a close combat weapon but it doesn't say that it is a CCW so in this case we are not looking at a model with 3+CCWs we are looking at a model with 2 CCWs which are special and 1 Pistol. Now we look at the combinations we have 2 Specials and it says if we have 2 specials we choose one and never get a +1 for extra weapons.

I completely agree that the RAW are silly and require additional rules to make sense. I also admit that this is not an interpretation issue, it's a "the rules are effing missing" issue. You must create rules to fill the gaps. If you don't admit that to yourself, you're doing a disservice.

DeathReaper wrote:Read that section again, it details how models with 2 ccw's fight.

Where is the section about models with 3 or more ccws?

A model with 3 ccw has 2 ccw.

The parts about 2sccw and 1ccw are specific and override general. Nothing allows you to choose except if you have 2sccw. And then you never get a bonus attack.

And as Yakface noted, under one interpretation the rules work fine, and other the other they don't function at all.

Saiisil wrote:How about I throw a curve here, this particular argument is about a model that has 2 SCCW and 1 Pistol, Page 29 tells us that pistols counts as a close combat weapon but it doesn't say that it is a CCW so in this case we are not looking at a model with 3+CCWs we are looking at a model with 2 CCWs which are special and 1 Pistol. Now we look at the combinations we have 2 Specials and it says if we have 2 specials we choose one and never get a +1 for extra weapons.

So a model with a pistol never gets an extra attack? Because if it isn't a CCW, you'll never get the bonus attack for multiple CCWs.

Kel Using a single close combat weapon does in deed give no bonus ... Using two does. While you have chosen to read those pages as having I can not agree with this interpretation.

So we're on page 8 and have come no closer to convincing one another. We still have rules for only dealing with one or two weapon (and three is not a subset of two).

We can continue this, we can agree to disagree, or we can vote ... what's it going to be?

Saiisil wrote:How about I throw a curve here, this particular argument is about a model that has 2 SCCW and 1 Pistol, Page 29 tells us that pistols counts as a close combat weapon but it doesn't say that it is a CCW.

the underlined is incorrect.

If something counts as something, then it is that thing for all intents and purposes.

So a Pistol Can be used as a CCW, so the model will in fact have 3 ccw's

rigeld2 wrote:So a model with a pistol never gets an extra attack? Because if it isn't a CCW, you'll never get the bonus attack for multiple CCWs.

Maybe I wasn't clear. The Pistol counts as a CCW but isn't actually a CCW so if you are counting actual CCWs that a model has which is what argument seems to be doing, in this case with Grotsnik he has 2 + pistol not 3 actual CCWs

Which is incorrect Sai, as I have noted above.

DeathReaper wrote:nkelsch, What rules allow a model with 3 or more weapons to fight?

The rules for two weapons, since two is a subset of three........................

Once again, this has boiled down to agree to disagree and pray that GW actually puts it in writing some day, instead of just the verbal guidance they (UK studio) once gave the US GT judges. If you want to know what that guidance was, well, read my posts........................

DR how is the underline incorrect? do you happen to know somewhere where it says a pistol is a CCW instead of counts as? if so show proof

Okay so if the two weapons rules covers it, we need to pick two weapons to use in cc since we need to fight with only two ccw's and use the rules for said weapon combination.

If you are not using a certain weapon combination why are you using its rules?

that is like firing a bolt pistol, then trying to launch an assault and being denied because you have a rapid fire weapon.


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Saiisil wrote:DR how is the underline incorrect? do you happen to know somewhere where it says a pistol is a CCW instead of counts as? if so show proof

Counts as = is that thing for all game purposes.

That is what counts as means.

Page reference? because every time I have seen something in the rules that says it counts as something else it either says or implies with the way it is written that it counts as for specific game effects, not that it "is that thing for all game purposes"

Saiisil wrote:Page reference? because every time I have seen something in the rules that says it counts as something else it either says or implies with the way it is written that it counts as for specific game effects, not that it "is that thing for all game purposes"

Stop asking for page references. It counts as something then it is that thing as much as it is its self. Next you'll be asking how to deploy your forces at the start of the game.

If you are going to try to argue something at least try to provide evidence, I always try to and I admit sometimes I am outright wrong but I at least provide the evidence that exists within the wording of the rules even if my interpretation is wrong. To say something means something without evidence is a baseless argument.

Edit: To further prove the on page 29 where it says that they counts as doesn't necessarily mean that they are page 37 under Number of attacks second bullet it lists CCW and Pistol separately.

If a pistol counts as a close combat weapon, then you can use a pistol in close combat as if it were a sword/mace/axe/any other normal close combat weapon.

See p.37 where is says (Typically a close combat weapon and/or pistol in each hand) they make that distinction because a pistol can be used as a close combat weapon, but a close combat weapon can not be used as a pistol.

Yet it is saying that you can use the pistol as, not that the pistol is. That is the difference my post was meant to point out and since the pistol isn't an actual CCW then we don't need to worry about counting it when determining exactly how many CCWs a model is carrying.

But you do need to worry about counting it, because counts as acts in all ways as that thing it counts as. Using the pistol as a close combat weapon means the pistol is a close combat weapon, since it counts as one.

A pistol can be used in close combat as a close combat weapon, so we need to count it as a close combat weapon for that determination.

Not RAW, but looking at the model of Doc it appears the syringe is bolted on to the slugga, at least now we know how he wields 3 weapons anyway...